Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 ?
Notes on propaganda war around the tragedy
Facts? Who needs facts when your task is hysterical scapegoating to promote neoliberal agenda. Thus MSM coverage of the incident
became a classic "kangaroo court"
If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed... Make the lie big, make it simple, keep
saying it, and eventually they will believe it... The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie
than to a small one... What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
MH17, I had originally thought was a US ploy, but a lot of stuff points to Britain. I
think Britain pulled that stunt, no doubt coordinated with factions in the US, and it was
enough to tip the balance in the US - to force the US into action who then put pressure on
the Euro vassals.
Where the US oligarchy is a bit divided, not much of an incident is required by perfidious
albion to tip the balance.
Bellingcat is in the middle of the GRU/Czech arms depot explosion story from 2014 - now
being described as "defacto act of Russian state terrorism on a NATO soil."
It appears the GRU were following closely a movement of arms from the Czech depot to a
Bulgarian middleman, meant to be then delivered to Ukraine. The explosion is now attributed
to the GRU because of the Petrov/Boshirov ID, and their presumed signature ineffectiveness
failing to destroy the arms cache and later failing to kill the Skripals.
MH17 looks like a flashback to KAL007 to me, the evil is always Russian and every
where!
KAL007 was shot down by Russians, after some thousand kilometres in high sensitive Russian
air space partially shadowed by RC-135 spy plane. Extremely devilish!
Of course there are NO operational BUK systems and NO fascists in the ATO zone in east
Ukraine! And a SU-24 can't fly higher then 6km! Believe me, it's in Wikipedia!
Dominic Raab @DominicRaab
· Jul 17 Today, we remember
that 6 years ago flight #MH17 was shot down & 298
people tragically lost their lives, including 10 citizens. We support
the ongoing trial in the Netherlands to deliver justice for those who died & for their
loved ones, and call on Russia to cooperate fully
And Russia does not try to cooperate fully?
Is Russia even allowed to cooperate?
The Ukraine is allowed to cooperate, of course, and not only cooperate: the Ukraine is
part of the "Joint Investigative Team"!
The Ukraine even provides "evidence" of Russian culpability!
And of course, according to the mendacious Raab, the purpose of the "trial" is to deliver
"justice for those who died and their loved ones" and certainly not to apportion blame on
Russia and the so-called terrorists in eastern Ukraine, whom Russia supports by, amongst
other things, having dispatched a Buk ground-to-air anti-aircraft missile launching complex
from Russia to the Ukraine, which weaponry was part of the Russian armed forces and manned by
Russian servicemen, then ferreted said system out of the Ukraine back to Russia, mission
having been accomplished, namely the downing of a civilian airliner that, for some reason or
other, had been diverted by Ukraine air-traffic control over a war zone in the Ukraine and on
a day when all Ukraine air-traffic radars were, for some inexplicable reason, out of
action.
Raab, to partly quote one of your fellow British cabinet ministers and erstwhile foreign
minister: "You should go away and shut up!"
The Flight Safety Foundation has begun an investigation into why Kiev did not close the
airspace over the warzone in eastern Ukraine where MH17 was destroyed in July 2014, a Dutch
foreign ministry spokesperson has confirmed to Sputnik.
"This isn't just parallel litigation, which the ECHR has already refused to allow,"
commented a London legal expert. "It's a vote of no confidence in the Dutch prosecutors to
secure convictions in the murder case they are trying to make."
Rutte and his foreign minister, Stephanus Blok, made their move on July 10 with press
releases and tweets; there has been no release of the legal papers. The ECHR has yet to
record their lawsuit
####
Well we're not surprised! Rutte seems quite adept at autof/kery.
The Russian Foreign Ministry welcomed the formation in Malaysia of its own position on
the collapse of MH17 The department noted that in the West this tragedy has been portrayed one-sidedly and
biased.
July 2, 2020
<bMOSCOW, July 2. / TASS /. The publication of a book written by Mahajir Ibrahim on the
causes of the downing of flight MH17 indicates the formation of a position in Malaysian
society on this tragedy. This was announced on Thursday at a briefing by the official
representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova.
"The appearance of the book testifies to the increasing desire of the Malaysians to
form their own opinion about what happened. We believe that the latter is especially
important, given how the tragedy has been covered in a one-sided and biased manner in the
West", she said.
As noted by Zakharova, in the book, the author pays special attention to various
versions of the airliner crash as well as to motives, "including not always obvious ones
which concern one or another country involved in the crash investigation. For example, the
United States, as the author claims, has used tragedy to justify the need for new sanctions
against Russia", the diplomat said.
Суд одобрил
повторный
запрос у США
снимков с места
крушения MH17
RT на русском, 3
июля 2020
Court has given approval for a re-request to the United States for images of the MH17
crash site
RT in Russian, July 3, 2020
The Netherlands court has called the proposal to re-appeal to the United States about
satellite images from the crash site of a Malaysian Boeing in eastern Ukraine in 2014
justified.
This was reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the presiding judge Hendrick
Steenheys.
According to him, interest in viewing satellite images and introducing them to the case
is obvious.
"The court notes that since the autumn of 2016, the prosecutor's office has not made
any attempts to verify whether these images can be made public as part of the criminal
process. A second request would be reasonable", said the judge.
It is noted that at past hearings, lawyers asked to make a second request to the United
States about satellite data that allegedly recorded the launch of a missile on Boeing flight
MH17.
Earlier, the Dutch prosecutor Theis Berger, said that the Ukraine had not provided
primary data from radars for the case concerning the downing of the Malaysian Boeing.
The Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed on July 17, 2014 in the
Donetsk region of the Ukraine, killing 283 passengers and 15 crew members.
A Dutch court has denied MH17 crash lawyers a second request for satellite data from
NATO. This was announced by the presiding judge Hendrick Steenhuis reports RIA
Novosti.
Earlier, on June 29, Dutch lawyer for the accused Oleg Pulatov, Baudewein van Eyck,
stated that NATO has not provided satellite data from the crash site. In this regard, he
asked the court to find out whether the North Atlantic Alliance has relevant records for the
eastern Ukraine zone on July 17, 2014. The court, in turn, recalled that it had already made
such a request and the response said that no data was recorded from the crash site of flight
MH17.
"We conclude that NATO does not have such data So the second request was rejected," the
judge explained at the July 3 hearing.
A Dutch court investigating the downing of MH17 has agreed to hear from Almaz-Antey, a
Russian arms manufacturer, which argues that the prevailing Western narrative – that
rebels in eastern Ukraine shot down the plane – is false.
The hearing in Badhoevedorp, Netherlands says it will explore alternative scenarios in
the high-profile trial, in which four anti-Kiev fighters stand accused of using a Russian
anti-aircraft missile to destroy the civilian plane, killing 283 passengers – mostly
Dutch – and 15 crew on board.
Crash site, crash site, crash site. We don't give a flip about the crash site; it has been
done to death. What Kerry claimed, and never, ever substantiated in any way whatsoever other
than non-stop allusion to having the information amongst its mountains of evidence, was that
the USA had remotely observed the taking of the shot, and had seen the where and the when of
its origin, and seen the very moment the airliner disappeared from radar. NOBODY CARES ABOUT
THE CRASH SITE. The dispute does not revolve around whether or not the aircraft crashed, or
where, but who shot it down and from where the shot originated. The USA claimed to know
– and be able to prove conclusively – both those things. It manifestly is not
going to do so no matter how many requests are floated, because if the Dutch thought there
was any hope of proving the case to that level of certainty, the prosecution would never have
embarked on its ridiculous strategy of 'conditional intent'.
I think it is at least possible if not probable that the USA did record something, or
bought it from Digital Globe and now is sitting on it. I personally think the USA knows full
well that Ukraine was probably or even definitely responsible, and is deliberately blocking
that discovery. It is at least possible that this trial is all about a verdict of 'Guess
we'll never know', so people will stop digging. But I'm sure they would still like a
conviction of some Russians if it looked like they could pull it off.
The entire trial, and indeed the investigation which preceded it, has been an attempt to
push a narrative in which first the investigators and then the officers of the court have
stated 'facts' which are not in evidence. On occasion persons have claimed to have seen the
evidence themselves, and satisfied themselves that it invites the conclusion they have
arrived upon, and have asked to be believed on the strength of their reputations because the
evidence cannot be made publicly available. Sometimes this has been difficult to grant
because no such reputation for veracity is present, and sometimes because the scenario the
missing evidence purports to tie together is so plainly ludicrous and/or biased toward or
away from certain conclusions that it is broadly unacceptable. Anyway, I think it is fair to
say that there is little we can claim we 'know'.
One think I believe we do 'know' is that if the United States had some slam-dunk evidence
which would prove east-Ukrainian militias shot down MH17, regardless by design or by mistake,
the United States would find a way to make that evidence available, and would have done so
long since. It is so clearly in its own interests to make this case, simultaneously removing
all doubt that its loyal ally – Ukraine – was not responsible, and so many
examples exist of the United States flinging aside its own rules when doing so served its
interests, that it is impossible to believe conclusive satellite evidence exists which proves
what they say it does, but modesty and concerns for national security prohibit showing it.
Similarly, if actual US government satellite data showed the movement of a single Buk TELAR
from Kursk to eastern Ukraine and back again at the time of the disaster, it would be in
every newspaper. Instead, we get limited hangouts and photoshops from Bellingcat, which has
turned out to be a nice little earner for Higgins and like-minded computer nerds.
I believe, but cannot prove yet, that an ATC is not allowed to assume control of an
aircraft in his/her airspace if no primary radar is available – something which has
long bothered me is Ukraine's cheeky assurance that it cannot supply any electronic data
because no primary radars were available, and the west's no-problem acceptance of this
excuse. If no primary radar is available, the ATC actually has no video contact with the
aircraft; Automatic Dependent Surveillance- Broadcast (ADS-B) consists of the aircraft
determining its own position relative to everything else, and broadcasting it to the ground.
The ATC must, armed with this information, provide guidance on altitude and course which will
not take the aircraft he/she is controlling too close to other aircraft operating in the same
airspace. There are rules on acceptable separation with/without primary radar, and obviously
when the ATC cannot see the aircraft on his/her own radar, greater separation is necessary
for safety. Other aircraft were operating in proximity, and there was speculation at the time
that one or more of them might have seen the flare from the explosion, but I forget now how
far away each was and am too lazy to look it up. Anyway, separation between aircraft in the
best conditions, when you have primary radar contact and can see raw video on your scope, and
secondary broadcast (because primary radar does not give identification or altitude) is five
miles ahead on the aircraft's course and three miles to each side.
ICAO PANS-ATM ( Doc.4444 , Chapter 8) details radar separation minima of five (5) and
three (3) nautical miles. These minima allow for a considerable increase in airspace
utilisation compared to procedural control. Changes to ICAO documents are about to be
published (2007) recognising ADS-B use to support 5 nautical mile separation standards.
ICAO's Separation & Airspace Safety Panel (SASP) is working on proposals to allow 3
nautical mile separation standards using ADS-B and also on the use of multilateration to
support both 3 and 5 nautical mile separation standards.
Early in the investigation of the incident, within a day or two, alert observers claimed
Ukraine had given MH17 an ordered course correction which took it directly over the DNR.
There was some talk about a altitude reduction as well, but I can't find any reference to
that now. There was immediate pushback from Ukraine's defenders, so,me saying the course
correction was just an urban legend and had never happened, some that MH17 had itself
requested a course change due to weather, etc Whatever the case, the information was expunged
from FlightRadar and other sites which provide it in the public domain, although there are
many screen captures of it as it appeared at the time – people have learned that
sensitive information has a way of vanishing from the internet as if it had never been.
Perhaps you can give course corrections to aircraft that you cannot see on radar, but it
would be an act of faith that their broadcast data is accurate, and you must observe proper
flight separation; the five-and-three rule applies to separation of aircraft that you can see
on radar. So what I am saying is that if MH17's separation from other flights did not exceed
five miles to the front and rear and three miles to either side, either the Ukrainian
controller had primary radar available and could see MH17, or else he/she was controlling in
violation of ICAO rules.
So, as to the satellite data which would reveal who shot down MH17, there are two
alternatives I can see; one, the USA has no such data, and John Kerry was full of shit as
usual, just grandstanding. Two, they do have such information, but it reveals a scenario
drastically different to the one in the official narrative. Whatever the case, if the USA
could prove beyond a doubt that Eastern-Ukrainian militia using a single Buk TELAR provided
by Russia shot down the aircraft from the vicinity of Schnizne, and then booked it back to
Russia with all reasonable dispatch, all the while firing off frantic radio messages to one
another, there is nothing which would stop them from providing it. People already have a
pretty good idea what is possible through satellite photography and analysis, what resolution
is achievable and how easy it is to interpret what is revealed, and it's pretty hard to
believe America is playing coy because it has unearthly technological capabilities which must
remain secret even if it means murderers go free.
I'm afraid I still think the Dutch have their minds made up, and have done from the first,
who is going to be awarded responsibility, and are now just going through the motions of
being scrupulously fair; they would not accept Russia's primary radar data or insisted it
shows nothing useful, supported the Ukrainian view that data held by Russia which shows the
missile the Ukies are exhibiting as the murder weapon was transferred to Ukraine many years
ago and never returned to Russia is forged or faked, ignored the impossibility of parts from
such a missile being found 'at the crash scene' or 'in the wreckage' because the missile
responsible would have exploded by proximity fuse without ever touching the airliner, except
for the shrapnel from the warhead – the missile parts would have fallen to earth miles
away, where the aircraft was hit and not where it landed. The premise of now exploring
'alternative scenarios' just looks like window-dressing to me, and I think it should be
regarded with the greatest suspicion.
The title of the linked article implies the Dutch will seek 'images of the crash site'
from the Americans. We have seen images of the crash site up the yingyang. What we need to
see is imagery of the missile shot being taken, and from where it originated plus any detail
visible of the system which fired it.
"Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between
Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev
has told Interfax news agency."
####
The link above of course doesn't work but this one from the 16:38.18 snapshot does (so
take a screenshot!):
15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between
Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev
has told Interfax news agency.
Ummm how does that square with reports that examination of the Cockpit Voice Recorder on
the downed flight revealed 'nothing useful'. and there being nothing on it – no audio
– for some four minutes (just guessing, I would have to look it up again, somewhere on
Helmer's site) following a routine positional update? What would be the point of confiscating
voice records of communications between the ATC and the aircraft from one end if they had a
recording in full from the other, the receiving end?
Unless, of course, there was something on it you felt you could safely remove, considering
no other record of it remained.
I believe the report of armed men seizing the ATC recordings was first offered by
'Carlos', the mystery ATC whose every appearance is greeted with yodels of joy by Matt, our
former Venezuela correspondent, who claims that Carlos was conclusively and irrefutably
proven not to exist, being a complete fabrication by Russia. So it's kind of complicated. The
only thing I could say about it at this point would be that if it actually was done by
Ukraine and was not a planned provocation but an accident, the speed and efficiency with
which the global PR apparatus swung into action was awe-inspiring. If it was planned and
executed by Ukraine, it was such a cold-blooded act that they would never live it down if it
were exposed. But how likely is it that either Ukraine or Russia accidentally shot it down,
and in only minutes, goons broke into the control tower and seized the recordings? If that
ever actually happened, it would be a critical piece of evidence arguing that the
shooting-down of MH17 was a carefully-planned provocation by Ukraine. They certainly would
not seize recordings required by law to be retained as part of an investigation in order to
protect Russia. The sole explanation for such behavior, if it could ever be proven to have
happened, would be to prevent one's own implication in the crime. And it could never have
happened so quickly by happenstance – it would have to be part of a plan.
A couple of interesting things from the Malaysian statement: one, it affirms that Ukraine
ordered a descent in altitude from 35,000 ft to 33,000 ft. Two, it affirms the aircraft was
at all times within airspace which had been cleared by the ICAO. If true, not only Ukraine is
to blame for not closing the airspace over a war zone.
I don't see anything between 16:37 and 16:41. Are you talking about the live feed
record?
When the US State Department was not yet even sure if any Americans had been aboard, Sammy
Power was already saying it was a surface-to-air missile that brought down the plane, and
there was already language being used which said "a Russian missile system or supplied by
Russia". In retrospect, it kind of looks like a plan, doesn't it? Similarly, all early
statements said that if the plane had been shot down, it was 'an unspeakable crime'. There
was never any question of it being an accident.
At 03:13 the narrative says "Data on MH17's flight route by flightradar24 suggests the
plane had deviated slightly from its usual route and flew across the length of Ukraine."
"Flightradar24" is a hotlink, but if you click it you learn that Googlemaps has disabled the
feed and the data is not recoverable.
Wow; spooky; at 04:05 the feed says "Aviation website Flightradar24.com says in a Facebook
post that MH17's plane crashed exactly 17 years after its first flight." First time I'd ever
heard that.
All through the narrative are regular intercessions by the Americans, the British and the
Australians to reiterate that it was a horrible murder and that Russia is responsible.
Mmmm interesting – in reference to my earlier statement that if you had the tapes
you would know what could safely be removed from the CVR once it was located, this report
reflects that several news sites including the BBC mentioned the ATC tapes being seized by
the SBU. At one point, Ukraine's Ambassador to Malaysia Ihor Humennyi said "it is just the
same as the flight data and cockpit voice recorders".
Oh, okay – now I see it. 15:28. I was looking at 16:38. "Ukraine's SBU security
service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control
officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news
agency." But Matt has told us several times that is all bullshit concocted by the
now-proven-to-have-never-existed 'Carlos'.
It happens to all of us, no? But, being right once doesn't verify all the other opinions
of that person. Remember he frequently refused to admit he was wrong and would accuse others
of deliberately misinterpreting what he wrote, which was very odd as his english was quite
good. He was quite the Princess because that is how he behaved, petulant, childish,
priviliged, and never, ever wrong. Or in short, a troll, which is why I never engaged with
him(?).
"... There is no beyond reasonable doubt evidence (No US satellite pictures as claimed by Biden, even within NATO to Dutch Intel) and the defence is not pushing that hard but have asked for the Russian General to be called to describe the BUK missile's documented life i. e. it came from Ukraine's stock. ..."
Enjoy your updates. The MH17 trial is turning into an interesting indictment on Dutch
justice. There is no beyond reasonable doubt evidence (No US satellite pictures as claimed by
Biden, even within NATO to Dutch Intel) and the defence is not pushing that hard but have
asked for the Russian General to be called to describe the BUK missile's documented life i.
e. it came from Ukraine's stock.
So, on July 3rd the Judges have to decide whether to allow that evidence, which definitely
puts the evidence less than reasonable double, or not allow it and convict the four
defendants on insufficient evidence to meet Dutch Law, or allow them to go free.
Looks like they have a bit of a problem meeting the expectations of the US.
The Dutch Government has
devised an evidence-proof scheme for ensuring
the trial of the Russian government for the
destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
will end in a conviction
.
This scheme will work without evidence to prove that the four men accused of the crime of
shooting down the aircraft, killing the 298 passengers and crew on board on July 17, 2014, intended
to kill; or even intended to fire the missile which allegedly brought MH17 down.
The Dutch scheme is evidence-proof because no evidence will be needed, not from US satellite
photographs which are missing; nor NATO airborne tracking which shows no missile; nor Ukrainian
Security Service (SBU) evidence which has proved to have been fabricated, and in the case of
Ukrainian witnesses for the prosecution, threatened, tortured or bribed.
The scheme is also evidence-proof because the Dutch Prime Minister has told the Dutch Minister
of Justice to order the state prosecutors to tell the state-appointed judge that he must convict
the Russians if he finds as proven that MH17 crashed to the ground in eastern Ukraine; that
everyone on board was killed; and that the four soldiers accused – three Russians and one Ukrainian
– were on the ground fighting.
International war crimes lawyers are calling this a legal travesty. It was presented in court
near Amsterdam by Dutch state prosecutor Thijs Berger on June 10. It has gone unnoticed in the
mainstream western media. Russian reporters following the trial have missed it. The scheme was
first reported in English and Russian by a NATO propaganda unit on June 12.
As a prosecutor of the Dutch War Crimes Unit, a state entity, Berger has been employed in the
past to prosecute the targets of wars fought by the Dutch, alongside NATO and the US, in Yugoslavia
and Afghanistan. In Europe his group prosecuted war crimes alleged by the NATO alliance in its war
on Serbia from March to June of 1999. A recent
report
[2]to
which Berger contributed, entitled
Universal Jurisdiction Annual Review 2019,
identifies
a case which Berger pursued of war crimes in Afghanistan; those alleged crimes were not of the US
and allied forces in Afghanistan, but of the local Afghans defending themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/YKJcJuT_5jc
Prosecutor Thijs Berger
announces
the evidence-proof scheme of Article 168. The legal loophole is spelled out over six minutes – Min
3:31:00 to 3:37:00.
For his presentation to presiding judge Hendrik Steenhuis, Berger read from a multi-page script
authorized by his superiors in the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security. They and he repeatedly
made the mistake of calling the charges in the prosecution's indictment – Articles 168, 287 and 298
– provisions of the Dutch Code of Criminal Procedure. This is the procedure code; its provisions
are called articles in the original Dutch, but sections in the
English
version.
The charges of the indictment are from the Dutch Criminal Code. They are called articles in
court; they are called articles in the
Dutch
statute
but sections in the official English translation.
For analysis of how the prosecution has manipulated both the Criminal Code and the Code of
Criminal Procedure in the MH17 trial preliminaries, read
this
.
"The scope of the indictment," Berger began his legal argument, is that together, the four
defendants -- Igor Girkin (Strelkov), Sergei Dubinsky, Oleg Pulatov, who are Russians, and
Leonid Kharchenko, a Ukrainian –
played "a steering, organizing, and supporting role in
deploying the BUK-Telar [missile and radar unit]" to shoot down MH 17
(Min 3:25:22).
They were members of an "armed group" engaged in "armed struggle, the purpose being to shoot
down an aircraft" (Min 3:27:20-21).
Note the indefinite article –
an
aircraft. The prosecution is charging the four with
capital crimes for defending themselves from attack by the Ukrainian Air Force. This, however, is
not mentioned by the prosecution.
"They are not being prosecuted," Berger went on, "as the persons who actually carried
out the firing process"
(Min 3:38:22). "We do not need evidence as to the exact cause of
events in order to be able to judge the accused" (Min 3:28:27). Homicide or murder, Berger
conceded, is in Dutch law "death caused intentionally" (Min 3:29:15). But the crimes which must be
judged by Steenhuis and his panel of The Hague District Court, he claims aren't homicide in the
usual legal sense. "The exact course of events need not be established" (Min 3:30:43), Berger told
Steenhuis. So the prosecution does not need to prove what happened. "That the missile which hit the
MH17 could possibly have been meant and intended for a military aircraft doesn't change these
facts" (Min 3:31:17).
"
None of the charges in the indictment requires intention concerning the civilian
nature of the aircraft or the occupants.
The crimes in the indictment forbid the
downing of any aircraft; this is Article 168 of the Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]; and also
forbid causing the deaths of others under Articles 287 and 289 irrespective of whether the
aircraft has a military or civilian status, and an error in the target doesn't really make a
difference for the evidence that these crimes have been committed. So no evidence is required
that the accused should have had the intention to shoot down a civilian aircraft" (Min 3:32:00).
"It was their intention to down a military aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force" (Min
3:32:28), Berger claims his evidence of the SBU telephone tapes and witnesses proves.
"Those who intend to shoot down a military aircraft and subsequently, accidentally, hit a
civilian aircraft are guilty of causing an aircraft to crash according to Article 168 of the
Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]; but also guilty of murder of the occupants according to
Article 289 of the Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]" (Min 3:33:04).
In a regular court of law in England, Australia, Canada or the US, a prosecutor's legal argument
is always presented with explicit references to the case law. That's the accumulation of judgements
by courts going back as far as the history of the crime and of the statute can be traced. These are
the precedents which, in international law and in Dutch law too, must be followed by judges hearing
cases to which these precedents apply. This reflects the accepted notion that law is cumulative,
and that judges administer and interpret that law; they don't issue personal opinions or
preferences.
Berger didn't identify any Dutch case law or provide the court with precedents in
previous cases decided by the Dutch courts.
The reason is that there are none , explains a veteran Dutch judge who was asked this week to
identify the case law on Article 168. The judge replied: "It's sufficient to establish that the
defendant had the intention to take down some aircraft and that he should have seriously taken into
consideration the chance that he would hit an aircraft such as the MH-17. That's called conditional
intent --
voorwaardelijk opzet
in Dutch Answering this question [of precedents] took a bit
more time. I couldn't find any case law that would be relevant to the issue. Article 168 is not
used very often."
Conditional intent doesn't exist in Anglo-American law. But in Dutch law, the concept has not
(repeat never) been applied to cases of warfare, or in situations of military engagement where men
are attacking and defending themselves. For a Dutch review of the court precedents for application
of
voorwaardelijk opzet
to deaths caused by a drunk driver and a poisoning, read
this
[8]– Sect. 3.3.1. Fatal traffic offences committed by drunken drivers are the typical
homicides in which Dutch prosecutors apply the doctrine of conditional intent; the case law and
precedents are reviewed
here
[9].
No Dutch lawyer, judge or court has ever applied this to warfare.
Berger knows this; so does Steenhuis. They also know there is voluminous case law in the
international courts dealing with similar facts to those of the MH17 case and of the combat in
which the four defendants were engaged; for a sample Dutch law review, read
this
.
Again, Berger ignored what no prosecutor outside The Netherlands would attempt in front of a
judge. "We are aware," Berger told Steenhuis, "of academic comments that imply that Article 168
would require intention in killing civilians [Min 3:33:04]. But this is incorrect. Article 168 does
not require any intention for the death of the occupants" (Min 3:33:34).
The NATO propaganda unit Bellingcat repeated this claim in a
publication
two days after Berger's presentation.
The Article 168 argument, repeated from Berger's
script, will prove to be a "boomerang" for the Russian government, NATO officials are now claiming.
"It is only a question of time, therefore, that the Dutch prosecution brings murder charges against
Russian top military commanders. Unlike the case with the 4 defendants, they would easily have
obtained combatant immunity, if only they – and their supreme commander – had admitted to being
part of the war. But they – and he – continuously denied, and this alone makes immunity impossible.
Also unlike the 4 defendants, the political price that Russia will pay such indictments will be
much higher. It is one thing for 3 Russian 'volunteers', forgotten by most, to spend the rest of
their life holed up at home and afraid to take any trip abroad. It's an altogether different story
when top Mod [Ministry of Defence] and FSB officials – and maybe even a minister – are charged
with murder of 298 civilians and end up on the Interpol red-notice list."
International lawyers already before the European Court of Human Rights are arguing that the
"boomerang" strikes the government in Kiev first, because it was ordering combat in eastern
Ukraine, including orders for bombing and strafing by the Ukrainian Air Force, and at the same time
refusing to close the airspace to civilian aircraft. The case of Denise Kenke, on behalf of her
father, MH17 victim Willem Grootscholten,
explains
.
Canadian war crimes attorney Christopher Black (right) says the Dutch prosecution is
deliberately ignoring Dutch law, as well as international law.
"What Berger is stating is a case of criminal negligence, not murder. The general principles
of criminal law apply to this case as much as to any case. As for the burden of proof, the court
has to be convinced on the basis of the lawful evidence presented that the accused has committed
the crime he is accused of."
Black is pointing out that the prosecution's evidence from the Ukrainian SBU is unlawful. For
analysis of evidence tampering by the SBU,
read
more
.
"'Any person who intentionally and unlawfully' -- that's the key phrase in the wording of
Article 168. Its use there means specific intent.
Specific intent
. A general intent to
use missiles on something is not good enough in this case. It is telling that [Berger] does not
make the distinction between specific intent versus general intent. That indicates the
prosecutors don't think they can prove the necessary specific intent. And if the plane had been
shot down by the accused thinking it was engaged in an attack on them or masking [a Ukrainian
Air Force] attack on them, then the court cannot convict. That's because the facts would show an
accident or a justifiable act of self-defence."
In Dutch courts, there are several of what are called "full defences" to indictments for murder.
One is insanity;
another
[14] is
duress. Self-defence is the third full defence; it is spelled out in Article 41 of the Criminal
Code:
European lawyers observing the MH17 trial have noted that Berger failed to mention that. They
interpret this as an indication the prosecution already believes Judge Steenhuis has decided on
conviction.
"The term 'unlawfully' is used in Article 168", Black continues, "because there may be
situations where at sea, for example, a vessel has to be grounded or sunk because it is a danger
to other shipping or to the crew -- or to save the crew. It's harder to think of a plane that
must be crashed for a comparable reason. But one can anticipate the scenario – for example, when
men on the ground believe on reasonable grounds that an aircraft was about to bomb them – when
attacking the plane would not be considered unlawful because it is self-defence."
"
So the Dutch prosecutors are trying to prove there was an intent [to fire at an
aircraft] and therefore they did it, even if there is no evidence they did.
I didn't
realise courts dealt in smoking guns. They ought to be dealing in hard evidence. The fact that
someone fantasizes about a woman and she ends up getting pregnant and then she has a miscarriage
can't be turned into the accusation against the man of intent to make her pregnant, and then of
causing her miscarriage, and so guilty of bodily harm."
On MH17, the Dutch court is now in a bit of a bind. The State Prosecutor has to submit
evidence beyond reasonable doubt and he has had to admit this week in court that he does not
have that as primarily there are no US satellite photos, not even behind multiple levels of
security, that they or the Dutch military have been able to get hold of. He has no real
evidence just, as you say Patrick, the fair and honest not obtained under duress evidence
from Kiev and the definitely undoctored photo analysis of Bellingcat. Logically the case
should now collapse.
Given that that satellite image, as boasted about by Kerry at the time, would have had the
Russians bang to rights in a proper court in a major PR coup for the US, I suspect that its
non production means that it doesn't exist.
"... Enter the Buk system, with the 9K37 SA-11 missile. It's got the range, it's got the altitude, the Russians have it in active service. Oooo problem. It's got the range, but only if it was fired from inside Ukraine. ..."
"... Anyway, back to the Buk system. And not a moment before time, either – I just re-read that sanctimonious stab above, again; " having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences " What, exactly, is the ridiculous nature of the accusation being presented here? That the Russians gave an anti-aircraft system to the 'militants' without considering they might use it to shoot down an aircraft? How did they not see that coming? The Ukrainian Army shot down a civilian airliner in October of 2001 , and lied about it for as long as it could – interestingly, it took place during joint Ukrainian-Russian air defense exercises on the Crimean peninsula, and Russia tried hard to avoid assigning blame to Ukraine, while at least one Israeli television station claimed the Russians had shot down their own aircraft. This disaster and subsequent lying did not prevent the USA from giving the Javelin missile to Ukraine – did it not occur to them that they might use it to shoot tanks? No due thought to the consequences, obviously. ..."
"... The Buk air-defense system normally consists of at least 4 TELAR launchers , each with 4 missiles on the launch rails, a self-propelled acquisition radar designated by NATO nomenclature as Snow Drift (the radar on the nose of the TELAR unit itself is designated Fire Dome), and a self-propelled command post, for a minimum of 6 vehicles. Also usually part of the system is a mobile crane, to reload the launchers. If you were going to supply an air-defense system to militant rebels, why wouldn't you give them the whole system? In a pinch, you might be able to get away without the command post vehicle, although it is the station that collates all the input from the sensors and makes the decision to assign targets for acquisition, tracking and engagement. If you didn't give them the crane vehicle, and perhaps a logistics truck with some reloads, they would be limited to the missiles that came already mounted – once those were fired, they'd have to abandon the system, because they couldn't reload it. Seems a little wasteful, don't you think? ..."
"... I'm going a little further with my inexpert opinion, to say that the Buk system was selected as the 'murder weapon', because it provides a limited autonomous capability. To be clear, the Fire Dome radar on the nose of the TELAR does have a limited search capability, and once the radar is locked on to a target, the TELAR vehicle is completely autonomous. The purpose of the surveillance radar is to detect the target from far beyond the Fire Dome's range, assign it to a TELAR and thereby direct it to the elevation and bearing of the target so that the TELAR's radar knows exactly where to look, and continue to update its position until the TELAR to which it was assigned has locked on to the target. ..."
"... The Fire Dome radar mounted on the TELAR can search a 120-degree sector in 4 seconds, at an elevation of 6 to 7 degrees. Its search function is maximized for defense against ground attack aircraft, and a single launcher is not looking at 240 degrees of potential air threat axis during each sweep. It is not looking high enough to see an airliner at 30,000 ft+. More importantly for a system which was not designed to shoot down helpless airliners, it leaves two-thirds of a circle unobserved all the time it is searching for a target. And the Russians provided this to the 'militants' for air defense? They should be shot. ..."
"... There is no telling what kind of ordnance might be found in the wreckage itself, as the Ukrainian Army continued to shell the site for days after the crash; doubtless various artillery shells could be found at the crash site, as well, but it would be quite a leap of faith to suggest a Boeing 777 was shot down by artillery. What you would not find is pieces of the SAM that shot it down. ..."
"... Nor is that by any means all. The Dutch investigation which concluded with the preliminary report implied that nothing of any investigative value was found on the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) or the Flight Data Recorder (FDR). Nothing to indicate what might have happened to the aircraft – just that it was flying along, and suddenly it wasn't. How likely is that? No transcript was provided, and I guess that would be expected if there was no information at all. Funny how often that happens with Malaysian airliners; they really need to look at their quality control. Oh; except they don't build the aircraft. Boeing does. I could see there not being any information after the plane began to break up, because both the CVR and the FDR are in the tail , and that broke off before the fuselage hit. But the microphones are in the ceiling of the cockpit and in the microphone and earpiece of the pilots' headsets, which they wear at all times while in flight. The last audio claimed to have been recorded was a course alteration sent by Ukrainian ATC. ..."
"... According to the Malaysian government, there was an early plan by NATO for a military operation involving some 9000 troops to 'secure the crash site', which was forestalled by a covert Malaysian operation which recovered the 'black boxes' and blocked the plan. I have to say that given the many, many other unorthodox and bizarre happenings in the conduct of what was supposed to be a transparent and impartial international investigation, it's getting so nothing much is unbelievable. The Malaysian Prime Minister went on record as believing that the western powers had already concluded that Russia was responsible, and were mostly just going through the motions of investigating. ..."
"... The telephone recordings presented by the SBU as demonstrating Russian culpability were analyzed by OG IT Forensic Services, a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, which concluded the recordings were cut, edited and fabricated . Yet they are relied upon as important evidence of guilt by the Dutch and the JIT. ..."
>Uncle Volodya says, "We become slaves the moment we hand the keys to the definition of reality entirely over to someone else,
whether it is a business, an economic theory, a political party, the White House, Newsworld or CNN."
"The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous.
In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans
until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan."
– Adolf Hitler
We're going to do something just a bit different today; the event I want to talk about is current – in the future, actually –
but the reference which is the subject of the discussion is almost a year old. and the event it discusses is coming up to its sixth
anniversary. The past event was the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 over Ukraine, the future event is the trial in
absentia of persons accused by the west of having perpetrated that disaster, and the reference is this piece, by Mark Galeotti,
for the Moscow Times:
"Russia's Roadmap
Out of the MH17 Crisis" .
You all know Mr. Galeotti, I'm sure. Here's his bio, for Amazon:
"Professor Mark Galeotti is a senior researcher at UMV, the Institute of International Relations Prague, and coordinator of
its Centre for European Security. Formerly, he was Professor of Global Affairs at New York University and head of History at Keele
University. Educated at Cambridge University and the LSE, he is a specialist in modern Russian politics and security and transnational
organized crime. And he writes other things for fun, too "
Yes, yes, he certainly does, as you will see. But this bio is extremely modest, albeit he most likely wrote it himself. Mr. Galeotti
also authored an excellent blog, In Moscow's Shadows , which was once a go-to reference for crime and legal issues in Russia,
a subject in which he seems very well-informed. The blog is still active, although he seems mostly to use it now to advertise podcasts
and sell books. That's understandable – it's evident from the blur of titles appended to his name that he's a very busy man. Always
has been, really; either as a student or an educator. He also speaks with confidence on the details of military affairs and equipment
despite never having been in the military or studied engineering; his education has pretty much all been in history, law or political
science.
I know what you will say – many of the greatest reference works on pivotal battles, overall military campaigns and affairs were
written by those who had no personal military experience themselves. Mr. Galeotti studied under Dominic Lieven, whose
"Russia Against Napoleon"
was perhaps the greatest work of military history, rich with detail and insight, that I have ever read. It won him the Wolfson
prize for History for 2010, a well-deserved honour. Yet so far as I could make out, Mr. Lieven never served a day in uniform, and
if you handed him an AK-47 and said "Here; field-strip this", your likely response would be a blank look. He most certainly was not
a witness to the subject military campaign. No; his epic work on Napoleon's invasion of Russia was informed by research, reading
the accounts of others who were there at the time, poring over reams of old documents and matching references to get the best picture
we have been afforded to date of Napoleon's ignominious defeat through a combination of imperial overreach, a poor grasp of logistics
and, most of all, resistance by an adversary who refused to be drawn into playing to Napoleon's strength – the decisive, crushing
battle in which the enemy could not retreat, and in which Napoleon would commit all the reserves and crush his enemy to dust.
So it is perfectly possible for an inquisitive mind with no military experience to put together an excellent reference on military
happenings which already took place, even if the owner of that mind was not present for the actual event. Given human nature and
the capabilities afforded by modern military equipment, it is even possible to forecast future military events with a fair degree
of accuracy, going merely by political ambitions and enabling factors, without any personal military experience. After all, the decision-makers
who give the orders that send their military forces into battle are often not military men themselves.
Returning for a moment to Mr. Galeotti, it is quite believable that an author with no military background could compose such works
as "Armies of the Russian-Ukrainian War" , although there is no serious evidence that Russia is a part of such a conflict
in any real military strength. You could write such a book entirely from media references and documentation, which in this case would
come almost entirely from the side which claims it is under constant attack by the other – Ukraine. Likewise "Kulikovo 1380;
the Battle that Made Russia" . None of us were around in 1380, so we all have to go by historical references, and whoever collects
them all into a book first is likely to be regarded as an expert.
No, it's more when we get into how stuff works that I have an issue with it. Like " Spetsnaz: Russia's Special Forces
". Or " The Modern Russian Army ". I'm kind of skeptical about how someone could claim to know the actual internal workings
of either organization simply from reading about them in popular references, considering that more than half the material on Russia
written in English in western references is rubbish heavily influenced by politics and policy. We would not have to look very far
to find examples in which ridiculous overconfidence by one side that it had the other side's number resulted in a horrible surprise.
In fact, we would not have to look very far to find an example of this particular author confidently averring to know something inside-out,
only to find that version
of reality could not be sustained . And I would no more turn to a Senior Non-Resident Fellow at the Institute of International
Relations Prague for expert analysis of the "Combat Vehicles of Russia's Special Forces" than I would ask a house painter
to cut my hair. Unless I see some recollections of a college-age Galeotti tinkering with drivetrains and differentials until the
sun went down from a pure love of mechanics, I am going to go ahead and assume that he knows what the vast majority of us knows about
military vehicles – he could pick one out of a lineup which included a melon, a goat and an Armored Personnel Carrier, and if it
had a flat tire he could probably fix it given time and the essential equipment.
Just before we move on, the future event: the MH-17 'trial' has been
postponed
until June 8th , to give defense attorneys more time to prepare after the amazingly fortuitous capture of a 'key witness' in
Eastern Ukraine. I'm not going to elaborate here on what a kicking-the-can-down-the-road crock this is; we'll pick that up later.
The whole MH-17 'investigation' has been such a ridiculous exercise in funneling the pursuit to a single inescapable conclusion –
that Russia shot it down – irrespective of how many points have to be bent to fit the curve that no matter how it comes out, it will
stand as perhaps the greatest example of absurd western self-justification ever recorded.
There are a couple of ways of solving a mystery crime. One is to collect evidence, and follow where it takes you. Another is to
decide who you want to have been responsible, and then construct a sequence of events in which they might have done it. To do that,
especially in this case, we will have to throw out a few assumptions, such as all that stuff about means, motive and opportunity.
In the absence of a believable scenario, that is. Let's look at what we have, and what we need, and see how we get from there to
here.
First, we need for Ukraine not to have been responsible. That's going to be awkward, because it looks as if the aircraft was shot
down by a missile, but the missile had to have come from inside Ukraine, because the aircraft was too far from the nearest point
in Russia at the moment it was stricken for the missile to have come from there. But we need Russia to have been responsible, and
not Ukraine. Therefore we need a sequence of events in which a Russian missile launcher capable of shooting down an airliner at cruising
altitude was inside Ukraine, in a position from which it could have taken the shot.
You know what? We are going to have to look at means, motive and opportunity, just for a second. My purpose in doing
so is to illustrate just how improbable the western narrative is, starting from square one. The coup in Ukraine – and anyone who
believes it was a 'grass-roots revolution' might as well stop reading right here, because we are going to just get further apart
in our impressions of events – followed by the triumphant promise from the revolutionaries to repeal Yanukovych's language laws and
make Ukrainian the law of the land touched off the return of Crimea to its ancestral home in the Russian Federation. Crimea was about
65% ethnic Russian by population at the time, and only about 15% Ukrainian, and Crimea had made several attempts to break free of
Ukraine before that yet for some reason the west refused steadfastly to accept the results of a referendum which voted in favour
of Crimea becoming a part of the Russian Federation, as if it were more believable that a huge ethnic-Russian majority preferred
to learn Ukrainian and be governed by Kiev.
Be that as it may, Washington reacted very angrily; much more so than Europe, considering the distance between the United States
and Ukraine versus its proximity to Europe. Perhaps that is owed simply to Washington's assumption that every corner of the world
looks to it for leadership, and that it must have a position ready on any given situation, regardless how distant. So Washington
insisted there must be sanctions against Russia, for stealing Crimea from its rightful owner, Ukraine. We're not really going to
get into struggles for freedom and the right to self-determination right now, except to state that the USA considers nothing more
important in some cases, while in others it is completely irrelevant. Washington demanded sanctions but
much of Europe was reluctant .
"It is notoriously difficult to secure EU agreement on sanctions anywhere because they require unanimity from the 28 member
states. There were wide differences over the numbers of Russians and Crimeans to be punished, with countries such as Greece, Cyprus,
Bulgaria and Spain reluctant to penalise Moscow for fear of closing down channels of dialogue. The 21 named were on an original list
that ran to about 120 people Expanding the numbers on the sanctions list is almost certain to be discussed at the EU summit on Thursday
and Friday. Some EU states are torn about taking punitive measures against Russia for fear of undoing years of patient attempts to
establish closer ties with Moscow as well as increase trade. The EU has already suspended talks with Russia on an economic pact and
a visa agreement The German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, said any measure must leave "ways and possibilities open to
prevent a further escalation that could lead to the division of Europe" .
The original list of those to be sanctioned was 120 people. The haggling reduced that to 21. Only 7 of those were Russians. Putin
was not included. That was pretty plainly not the United Front That Speaks With One Voice that Washington had envisioned, and the
notion that Europe would buy into sanctions that might really do some damage to Russia, albeit there would be economic costs to Europe
as well, was a dim prospect.
Gosh – you know what we need? An atrocity which can be quickly tied to Russia, and which will so appall the EU member states that
resistance to far-reaching sanctions will collapse. That's called 'motive'. It's just not a motive for Russia. Having just gone far
out on a limb and taken back Crimea, to the obvious and vocal fury of the United States, it is a bit of a stretch that Russia was
looking for what else it could do that would stir up the world against it.
Means, now. That presents its own dilemma. Because Russia could have shot down an airliner from its own territory. Just not with
the weapon chosen. The S-400 could have done it; it has the range, easily. But if you were setting up a scenario in which something
happened that you wanted to blame on Russia, but they didn't really do it, you must have the weapon to do it yourself, or access
to it. By any reasonable construct, Ukraine must be a suspect as well – there was a hot war going on in Ukraine, Ukraine controlled
both the airspace and the aircraft that was lost, and the aircraft was lost over Ukrainian territory. But Ukraine doesn't have the
S-400. You could use a variety of western systems, but it would quickly be established that the plane was shot down with a weapon
that Russia does not have. In order for the narrative to be believable, Russia must have the weapon – but if it wasn't Russia, then
whoever did it must have the weapon, too.
Enter the Buk system, with the 9K37 SA-11 missile. It's got the range, it's got the altitude, the Russians have it in active service.
Oooo problem. It's got the range, but only if it was fired from inside Ukraine.
Which brings us back to Mr. Galeotti, an expert in Russian combat systems; enough of an expert to write books on them, anyway.
And he plainly believes it was an SA-11 missile fired from a single Buk TELAR (Transporter/Erector/Launcher and Radar) which brought
down the Boeing; he says that's what the evidence demonstrates, although by this time (2019) most of the world has backed away from
saying Putin showed up with no shirt on to close the firing switch personally (cue the instant British-press screaming headlines
before the dust had even settled, "PUTIN'S MISSILE!!!" "PUTIN KILLED MY SON!!!"). Now the story is that the disgraceful deed was
done by 'Ukrainian anti-government militants', using a weapon supplied by Russia.
"In this context, a full reversal of policy seems near-enough impossible. The evidence suggests that while the fateful missile
was fired by Ukrainian anti-government militants, it was supplied by the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade under orders from Moscow
and in a process managed by Russian military intelligence.
To admit this would not only be to acknowledge a share in the unlawful killing of 298 innocents, but also an unpicking of
the whole Kremlin narrative over the Donbass. It would mean admitting to having been an active participant in this bloody compound
of civil war and foreign intervention, to having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences, and to having lied
to the world and the Russian people for half a decade."
We don't really have the scope in this piece to broaden the discussion to Russia's probable actual involvement. Suffice it to
say that despite non-stop allegations by Poroshenko throughout his presidency of entire battalions of active-service Russian Army
soldiers inside Ukraine, zero evidence has ever been provided of any such presence, although there have been
some clumsy attempts to fabricate
it . To argue that the Russian Army has been trying to overrun Ukraine for six years now, but has been unable to do so because
of the combat prowess of the Ukrainian Army is to imply a belief in leprechauns. This is only my own inexpert opinion, but it seems
likely to me the complete extent of Russia's involvement, militarily, is the minimum which prevents Eastern Ukraine from being overrun
by the Ukrainian military, and including the rebel areas' own far-from-inconsequential military forces. I'm always ready to entertain
competing theories, though; be sure to bring your evidence. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Constitution prohibits using the country's military
forces against its own citizens. The logic of 'Have cake, and eat it" cannot apply here – either the Ukrainian state is in direct
and obvious violation of its own constitution or the people of the breakaway regions are not Ukrainian citizens.
Anyway, back to the Buk system. And not a moment before time, either – I just re-read that
sanctimonious stab above, again; " having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences " What, exactly,
is the ridiculous nature of the accusation being presented here? That the Russians gave an anti-aircraft system to the 'militants'
without considering they might use it to shoot down an aircraft? How did they not see that coming? The Ukrainian Army
shot down a civilian airliner in October of 2001
, and lied about it for as long as it could – interestingly, it took place during joint Ukrainian-Russian air defense exercises
on the Crimean peninsula, and Russia tried hard to avoid assigning blame to Ukraine, while at least one Israeli television station
claimed the Russians had shot down their own aircraft. This disaster and subsequent lying did not prevent the USA from giving the
Javelin missile to Ukraine – did it not occur to them that they might use it to shoot tanks? No due thought to the consequences,
obviously.
The Buk air-defense system normally consists of at least
4 TELAR launchers , each with 4 missiles on the launch rails, a self-propelled acquisition radar designated by NATO nomenclature
as Snow Drift (the radar on the nose of the TELAR unit itself is designated Fire Dome), and a self-propelled command post, for a
minimum of 6 vehicles. Also usually part of the system is a mobile crane, to reload the launchers. If you were going to supply an
air-defense system to militant rebels, why wouldn't you give them the whole system? In a pinch, you might be able to get away without
the command post vehicle, although it is the station that collates all the input from the sensors and makes the decision to assign
targets for acquisition, tracking and engagement. If you didn't give them the crane vehicle, and perhaps a logistics truck with some
reloads, they would be limited to the missiles that came already mounted – once those were fired, they'd have to abandon the system,
because they couldn't reload it. Seems a little wasteful, don't you think?
What about the acquisition radar? Because acquiring targets is all about scanning capability and situational awareness. We're
going to assume for a moment that you don't use an air defense system exclusively to hunt for airliners, but that you want to defend
yourself against ground-attack aircraft like the Sukhoi SU-25. Because, when you think about it, who is more likely to be trying
to kill you ? A Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777, or an SU-25? The latter is not quite as fast as an airliner at its cruising
height of 30,000 ft+, but it is very agile and will be nearly down in the treetops if it is attacking you. You need to be able to
search all around, all the time.
That's where the acquisition radar comes in. A centimetric waveband search radar, the
Snow Drift (called the 9S18M1 by
its designer) has 360-degree coverage and from 0 to 40 degrees of height in a 6-second sweep in anti-aircraft mode, with a 160 km
detection range, obviously dependent on target altitude. An airliner, being a large target not attempting to evade detection, and
at a high altitude, would quite possibly be detected at the maximum range of which the system is capable. But then the operators
would certainly know it was an airliner. And the narrative says whoever shot it down probably did so by accident.
Maybe if it was his first day on the job. Let's talk for a minute about air-defense deconfliction. It would be nice if your Command
parked you somewhere that there was nothing around you but enemies. Well, not as nice as parking you across the street from a pulled-pork
barbecue joint with strippers and cold beer, but from a defense standpoint, it'd be nice to know that anything you detected, you
could shoot. Know something? It's never like that. Your own aircraft are flying around as if they didn't even know you are dangerous,
and as everyone now knows, civilian airliners continue their transport enterprises irrespective of war except in rare instances in
which high-flying aircraft have been shot down by long-range missiles. That rarely happens. Why? Because an aircraft flying a steady
course, at 30,000 ft+ and not descending, is no threat to you on the ground. From that altitude it can't even see you in the ground
clutter, and it'd be quite a bombardier that could hit a target the size of a two-car garage with a bomb dropped from 30,000 ft while
flying at 400 knots.
And unless you are an idiot, you know it is an airliner. When you are deployed into the field in an air-defense role, you know
where the commercial airlanes are that are going to be active. You know what a commercial-aviation profile looks like – aircraft
at 30,000 ft+ altitude, flying at ≥400 knots on a steady course, squawking Mode 3 and Charlie = airliner. Might as well take a moment
here to talk about
IFF ; Identification
Friend or Foe. This is a coded pulse signal transmitted by all commercial aircraft whenever they are in flight unless their equipment
is non-functional, and you are not allowed to take off with it in that state. Mode C provides the aircraft's altitude, taken automatically
from its barometric altimeter. All modern air search radars have IFF capability, and a dashed line just below the raw video of the
air track can be interrogated with a light-pen to provide the readout. You already know how high the plane is if you have a solid
radar track, but Mode C provides a confirmation.
Military aircraft have IFF transponders, too; in fact, most of the modes are reserved for military use. But military aircraft
often turn off their IFF equipment, because it provides a giveaway who and where they are. In Ukraine, which uses mostly Soviet military
aircraft, both sides are capable of reading each other's IFF, so all the more reason not to transmit. Foreign nations typically cannot
read each other's IFF except for the modes which are for both military and civilian use, other than those nations who are allies.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that the Snow Drift acquisition radar has IFF, and if it detected an airliner-like target at
160 km., the operator would have that much more time to interrogate it and determine it was an airliner. Just to reiterate, the western
narrative holds that the destruction of the airliner was a mistake.
I'm going a little further with my inexpert opinion, to say that the Buk system was selected as the 'murder weapon', because it
provides a limited autonomous capability. To be clear, the Fire Dome radar on the nose of the TELAR does have a limited search capability,
and once the radar is locked on to a target, the TELAR vehicle is completely autonomous. The purpose of the surveillance radar is
to detect the target from far beyond the Fire Dome's range, assign it to a TELAR and thereby direct it to the elevation and bearing
of the target so that the TELAR's radar knows exactly where to look, and continue to update its position until the TELAR to which
it was assigned has locked on to the target.
That autonomous capability is probably what made it attractive to those building the scenario; consider. A complete Buk system
of 6, maybe 7 vehicles could hardly get all the way inside Ukraine to the firing position without being noticed and perhaps recorded.
But perhaps a single TELAR could do it. The aircraft could be shot down by an SA-11 missile and blamed on Russia – Ukraine has access
to plenty of SA-11's. But it is a weapon in the Russian active-service inventory. Further, Galeotti's commitment to the allegation
that the single TELAR was provided by Russia's 53rd Air Defense Brigade tells us he supports the crackpot narrative offered by Bellingcat,
the loopy citizen-journalist website headed by failed financial clerk Eliot Higgins. Bellingcat claims the Buk TELAR was trucked
into Ukraine on the back of a flatbed, took the shot that slew MH-17, and was immediately withdrawn back to Russia.
Ummm .how was that an accident? The Russians gave the Ukrainian militants a single launcher with no crane or reload missiles,
so it was limited to a maximum of four shots. Its ability to defend itself from ground attack was almost nil, since the design purpose
of mounting a Fire Dome radar
on each TELAR is not to make the launcher units autonomous; it is to permit concurrent engagements by several launchers, all
coordinated by the acquisition radar and command post. Without a radar of its own on the launcher, the firing unit would have to
wait until each engagement was completed before it could switch to a new target, but with a fire-control guidance radar on each TELAR,
multiple targets can be assigned to multiple launchers, while the search radar limits itself to acquisition and target assignment.
The Fire Dome radar mounted on the TELAR can search a 120-degree sector in 4 seconds, at an elevation of 6 to 7 degrees. Its search
function is maximized for defense against ground attack aircraft, and a single launcher is not looking at 240 degrees of potential
air threat axis during each sweep. It is not looking high enough to see an airliner at 30,000 ft+. More importantly for a system
which was not designed to shoot down helpless airliners, it leaves two-thirds of a circle unobserved all the time it is searching
for a target. And the Russians provided this to the 'militants' for air defense? They should be shot.
A single TELAR with no reloads and no acquisition radar would have to be looking directly at the target when it was activated
in order to even see it; it takes 15 seconds for the launcher to swing into line and elevation even when that information is transmitted
to it from the acquisition radar. It takes 4 seconds for a scan to be completed when there is a whole two-thirds of a circle that
it is not even looking at, and you have to manually force it to search above 7 degrees because it is not designed to shoot down airliners.
All this time, the target is crossing the acquisition scope at 400 knots+. Fire Dome has integrated IFF, so if it did by some miracle
pick up an airliner in its search, the operator would know from transmitted IFF that he was looking at an airliner. A single TELAR
with no reload capability sent on an air-defense mission would have its ass ripped in half by ground-attack aircraft that it never
saw – if the autonomous capability is so good, why don't the Ukrainians use them as a single unit? Think of how much air-defense
coverage they could provide! Do you see the Ukrainian air-defense units employing the Buk that way? Never. Not once. Four TELARS,
acquisition radar vehicle, command vehicle, just the way the system was designed to operate.
Just because it has a limited capability to function in a given capacity should not suggest you would employ it that way. You
can use a hockey stick to turn off the bedroom light, and you won't even have to get out of bed. Would you do that? I hope not.
A one-third effective capacity in the air defense role together with the covert delivery and immediate withdrawal suggests that
the Russians provided the 'militants' with a single TELAR for the express purpose of shooting down a defenseless airliner. Except
nobody is saying that. It was a mistake. Well, except for Head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, who claimed
"Terrorists and militants have planned a cynical terrorist attack on a civilian aircraft Aeroflot AFL-2074 Moscow-Larnaka that was
flying at that time above the territory of Ukraine." He further claimed that this was motivated by a desire to 'justify an invasion'.
I'm pretty sure if any western authority could prove anything even close to that, we would not have had to wait 6 years for a trial.
Which brings us to the covert delivery and extraction. As part of his personal investigation, Max van der Werff drove the route
Bellingcat claimed was the extraction route by which the single TELAR, on its flatbed, was returned to Russia. He verified that there
is a highway overpass on the route which is too low for a load that tall to pass underneath. When he pointed this out to Higgins,
he was told there is a bypass spur which goes around it, which would allow the flatbed to regain the road beyond without having gone
through the overpass. Max drew his attention to the concrete barriers which blocked that road at the top of the hill, and which locals
claimed had been in place long before the destruction of MH-17. And that was the end of that conversation. I cannot say enough about
the quality of Max's work and his diligent, patient dissection
of the evidence . His diagrams of the entry and egress routes as provided by Bellingcat illustrate how little sense they make.
It was imperative the guilty Russians get the fuck out of Dodge with the greatest possible dispatch so they drove 100 kilometers
out of their way? Don't even terrorist murderers have GPS now?
Similarly, the simpleminded flailing of the Ukrainian investigators suggests they do not even have much of a grasp of how Surface-To-Air
missiles work. In excited posts like this one , the
BBC discloses that an exhaust vent from the tail section of a 'Buk missile' (the missile is actually the SA-11, while Buk is the
entire system) was found in the wreckage of the crashed plane, while
this one
even shows terminally-stunned head prosecutor Fred Westerbeke standing next to what is allegedly part of the rocket body of an
SA-11, including legible inventory markings, also 'found at the crash scene'.
Do tell.
Let me review for you how an SA-11 missile shoots down an aircraft. Does it pierce it like a harpoon, blow up in a thunderous
explosion, and ride the doomed aircraft down to the crash site? It certainly does not. The missile blasts out of the launcher and
flies to the target via semiactive homing, which means it has an onboard seeker that updates the missile trajectory, while the radar
on the launcher also communicates with it and the missile and the target are brought together in intercept. When the proximity fuse
of the missile – this is the important part – senses that the missile's warhead is close to the target, the internal explosive detonates,
and a shower of prefragmented shrapnel pierces the area of the plane near where the missile detonated, usually the front, because
the missile is constantly adjusting to make sure it stays with the target until intercept.
MH-17 traveled on, mostly intact, for miles before it crashed into the ground; the crash site was some 13 miles from where the
plane was hit. The missile self-destructed miles away from the crash site, and the only parts of it which accompanied the plane to
its impact point were the shrapnel bits of the exploded warhead. The body of the missile, together with the exhaust vent, fell back
to the ground somewhere quite close to where the plane was hit, not where it fell. Once the missile's fuel is exhausted, either because
it ran out or because it was consumed in the explosion triggered by the proximity fuse, the missile parts do not fly around in formation,
seeking out the wreckage and coming gently to rest in it where they can later be found by investigators. I don't know how many times
I have to say this, because this is certainly not the first, but there would not be any missile parts in the wreckage of MH-17
because the missile would have blown up in front of the plane without ever touching it. The missile does not hit the plane.
The pieces of the warhead do. But reality has to take a back seat to making out an airtight case.
There is no telling what kind of ordnance might be found in the wreckage itself, as the Ukrainian Army
continued to shell the site
for days after the crash; doubtless various artillery shells could be found at the crash site, as well, but it would be quite
a leap of faith to suggest a Boeing 777 was shot down by artillery. What you would not find is pieces of the SAM that shot it down.
Several witnesses claimed to have seen an SU-25 near the plane before it exploded. They quite possibly did – the Ukrainian Air
Force was observed to be using civilian airliners as cover to allow them to get close to Eastern-Ukrainian villages which might be
protected by hand-held launchers known as MANPADS (for Man-Portable Air Defense System), reasoning the defenders would not shoot
if they were afraid they might hit a civil aircraft. Once they were close enough to the village or other target to make an attack
run, they would then return to the vicinity of the airliner for protection while withdrawing; the rebel side complained about this
illegal and immoral practice a month before the destruction of MH-17. But there is no evidence I am aware of linking the destruction
of MH-17 to an attack by aircraft.
It may no longer be possible to look at the shooting-down of the Malaysian Boeing objectively; the event has become a partisan
rush to judgment which was rendered immediately, after which an investigation began which plainly had as its goal proving the accusations
already made. Means and motive clearly favour the accusers rather than the accused, and opportunity is mostly irrelevant as a consideration.
Ukraine obviously had to be a suspect – the destruction of the aircraft occurred over Ukraine while Ukraine was in control of it
and the airspace in which it traveled. Yet Ukraine was allowed to lead the investigation, and to gather and safeguard evidence, while
the owner of the aircraft – Malaysia – was excluded until the investigation had been in progress for four months. Russia was not
allowed any part in it save to yield whatever evidence the investigators demanded, while all its theories were widely mocked. Demonstrations
set up by Almaz-Antey, the designers and builders of the SA-11, were unattended by any investigating nation – small wonder they do
not have Clue One how the missile works, and believe they are going to find big chunks of it in the wreckage, perhaps with Putin's
passport stuck to one of them. If any of these conditions prevailed in an investigation which favoured Russia, NATO would scream
as if it were being run over with spiked wheels – if the Boeing had been shot down over Russia, who thinks Russia would have been
heading the investigation, and custodian of the evidence?
Nor is that by any means all. The Dutch investigation which concluded with the preliminary report
implied that nothing of any investigative value was found on the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) or the Flight Data Recorder (FDR).
Nothing to indicate what might have happened to the aircraft – just that it was flying along, and suddenly it wasn't. How likely
is that? No transcript was provided, and I guess that would be expected if there was no information at all. Funny how often that
happens with Malaysian airliners; they really need to look at their quality control. Oh; except they don't build the aircraft. Boeing
does. I could see there not being any information after the plane began to break up, because
both the CVR and the FDR are in the
tail , and that broke off before the fuselage hit. But the microphones are in the ceiling of the cockpit and in the microphone
and earpiece of the pilots' headsets, which they wear at all times while in flight. The last audio claimed to have been recorded
was a course alteration sent by Ukrainian ATC.
According to the Malaysian government, there was an early plan by NATO for a military operation involving some 9000 troops to
'secure the crash site', which was
forestalled by a covert Malaysian operation which recovered the 'black boxes' and blocked the plan. I have to say that given
the many, many other unorthodox and bizarre happenings in the conduct of what was supposed to be a transparent and impartial international
investigation, it's getting so nothing much is unbelievable. The Malaysian Prime Minister went on record as believing that the western
powers had already concluded that Russia was responsible, and were mostly just going through the motions of investigating.
The telephone recordings presented by the SBU as demonstrating Russian culpability were analyzed by OG IT Forensic Services, a
Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, which
concluded the recordings were cut, edited and fabricated . Yet they are relied upon as important evidence of guilt by the Dutch
and the JIT.
The conduct of the investigation has been all the way across town from transparent, and in fact seems to represent a clique of
cronies getting their heads together to attempt nailing down a consistent narrative, which is in the judgment of forensic professionals
based upon clumsy fabrications. The investigators plainly have no understanding of how the weapons systems involved perform, or they
would not claim confidently to have discovered pieces of the very missile that destroyed the plane in the wreckage of it. But rather
than take an objective look at how this flailing is perceived, they continue to rely on momentum and the appearance of getting things
done while being scrupulously impartial, all the while that more mountains of evidence are collected, which they cannot disclose
to the public, although it is all right to let the prime suspect keep it safe under wraps.
Make of that what you will.
" Bullshit is unavoidable whenever circumstances require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about. Thus the
production of bullshit is stimulated whenever a person's obligations or opportunities to speak about some topic exceed his knowledge
of the facts that are relevant to that topic. "
"... This was Bellingcrap's bread-and-butter function, to use satellite photos and make them say whatever Bellingcrap had been tasked to say they were, relying on the fact that mainstream media organisations rarely employ people expert in interpreting satellite imagery, before people outside the MSM environment started voicing suspicions about how the "evidence" for the official MH17 narrative was being worked and whipped into shape to fit that narrative. ..."
" The point is that we often tend to believe satellite photography shows what its
presenters say it shows because we do not have the skill to interpret it ourselves "
This was Bellingcrap's bread-and-butter function, to use satellite photos and make them
say whatever Bellingcrap had been tasked to say they were, relying on the fact that
mainstream media organisations rarely employ people expert in interpreting satellite imagery,
before people outside the MSM environment started voicing suspicions about how the "evidence"
for the official MH17 narrative was being worked and whipped into shape to fit that
narrative.
It's my understanding that there is a company in Colorado, called Digital something or
other, that supplies a huge amount of satellite imagery to the US government and other big
clients.
Incidentally not long after China slapped anti-dumping tariffs on Australian barley (and
switched to buying barley from the US) and suspended beef imports from four Australian
abattoirs, Australia's foreign minister Maryse Payne phoned her Russian counterpart
apparently to request that Russia send more tourists to Australia and buy more Australian
products. Imagine Sergei Lavrov's initial reaction before he went straight into his
diplomatic persona. As John Helmer
bluntly puts it :
" Lavrov replied that Australia should stop fabricating evidence of Russian involvement
in the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, and withdraw from the Dutch show trial
which is scheduled to resume hearings in Amsterdam next month "
" Russian Foreign Minister [Lavrov] informed [Payne] that Russia will disseminate in the
UN a comprehensive document with the facts revealing the serious problems in the operation
of the Netherlands-established Joint Investigative Team (JIT).
Mr Sergey Lavrov criticised the JIT and said their activities fail to conform to the
high standards set by UN Security Council Resolution 2166.
"Russian experts are ready to hold consultations with their Australian and Netherlands
colleagues to clear up answers to the numerous questions put during their cooperation with
the JIT", he maintained "
Looks like Australia is now between a rock and a hard place. Payne must be really thick to
think that she could play Russia off China.
Nobody seems to catch on that it's always Washington, manipulating and meddling and getting
its poodles to yap for it, and it is the poodles who bear the consequences, while nothing
much accrues to the manipulator. It will be the same with the Huawei affair, mentioned
elsewhere here; it is looking more like Washington will get its way and all its allies will
cave and reject all Huawei gear, whereupon they will all end up with a less-capable and
more-expensive 5G network which meets with American approval, and the allies will pay the
cost in trade reprisals by China.
Mmmm .right. His first name is Vladimir, but everyone calls him Andrei on the phone. The
middle name "Ivanovich" is so unusual in Russia as to have led the investigators straight to
him. Like if I was doing an investigation in America, and the people on the phone kept
referring to a 'William Donald", and my team and I decided to accuse Roscoe Donald Peterson
because he also has the middle name "Donald". Brilliant investigative work. Remind me to make
a donation.
Maybe The Atlantic Council's algorithm that runs through the Moscow telephone-book database
needs replacing. I'm sure it would be pretty worn out after identifying Ruslan Boshirov as
Anatoly Chepiga and Alexander Petrov as Alexander Mishkin and is now prone to making mistakes
such as confusing a name like "Vladimir" with "Andrei". Next thing you know, Bellingcrap will
be telling us that Andrei Kozyrev is the current Russian
President because his middle name is Vladimirovich too.
Further details on the case were shared by the Deputy Interior Minister Anton Gerashenko on
his Facebook page. The ring involved the head of the clinic, her son, as well as two other
Ukrainian and three Chinese nationals. They were charged with human trafficking that may
lead to 12 years in prison with property confiscation.
The majority of the clinic's clients were single Chinese males of "certain orientation," as
Gerashenko put it. While the exact number of trafficked babies remains unknown, at least
140 more Chinese nationals are under investigation, the official added.
Anton Gerashenko is the person that put early (in the first few hours) MH17 propaganda on
social media. The so called intercepted radio calls between rebels and also photograph
supposedly of BUK launch.
Looks like Gerashenko is doing his bit for the China decoupling.
MH17 was the tool to separate EU and the US west from Russia. Covid-19 is the tool to
separate the US west from China.
Majority of people in the west will believe the anti China - China dunnit crap that is
being pumped out by the US and all MSN.
Reuters running an article on Iran speed boats harassing US coast guard vessels When they
were innocently conducting helicopter integration exercises. I guess Iran moved its country
to close to the US.
Trump regime says it wants to have discussions with Iraq in June about moving out. I guess
that means Trump will be making his move on Persian gulf oil before June.
Whatever is coming this covid bullshit is just the beginning - a planned move setting the
stage for what is to come.
The judge in the MH17 trial has issued an order for the US satelite data showing images of
the Buk missile being launched to be made available. If the prosecution is unable (or
refuses) to produce these images then this would strongly indicate that:
1. There was no Buk and MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet (which the very first, on
the ground, eyewitnesses indicated).
I tend to think US does have sat recording of the missile. It will show launch flare and
rocket burn. It was quite clear by what Kerry said that this is what their sats pick up.
Launch flare will show launch position to within a few meters.
Robert Parry did a piece on it a few weeks after the shootdown. His contact in the US
intel thought sat pics of the position were showing Ukraine military.
This is what Kerry said within a few days of the MH17 downing:
"We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane
disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and
where these weapons have come from."
But still, nearly 6 years later, no evidence has been provided? Surely you can see how
inauthentic Kerry's statement is? Perhaps, Kerry could clear the matter up by being a witness
at the MH17 trial?
Robert Parry's CIA source feels like an authorised leak and psyop exercise that reinforces
the idea of a Buk and expresses concern about the possibility of Ukrainian military
involvement (the true purpose of which is to create distance and absolve the US) whilst at
the same time being meaningless and of no real value.
You "tend" to believe Kerry and a CIA leak and discount what ordinary Ukrainians witnessed
on the day of the shootdown? Why????
Apparently the Dutch are actually going ahead with a trial over the MH-17 plane shootdown,
seeking to convict in absentia three Russians and a Ukrainian. It is my understanding that a
Dutch military report effectively ruled out exactly the scenario proposed for this trial, and
did so several years ago.
Malaysia has provided the dissent to the MH-17 investigation to date, although a newly
elected government may seek to pull back from overt criticism in the future. A Malaysian
diplomat who has been involved has rather pointed things to say about the politicization of
the investigation and the questionable motivations of the Ukrainians, and claims the court
case is based on hearsay and a voice recording with no provenance. https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/is-malaysias-position-on-mh-17-tragedy-shifting/
"These records show that at their meeting on February 12, 2016, the JIT officials agreed
that the "requested information" identified in the December 4, 2015, meeting and including
the US satellite data, was "yet to be completed."
Instead, the only civilian satellite evidence which the JIT later said it has used, comes
from the European Space Agency. In the JIT report of September 28, 2016, the Dutch said "the
European Space Agency (ESA) has aided the investigation team extensively in the search for
relevant images from satellites. This has shown to be of great value: Not only did ESA obtain
images of all relevant civilian satellites, but they also have experts who have assessed
these images. The conclusions drawn by ESA confirm the conclusions of the investigation team
with regard to the launch site."
Note that the JIT refers here to civilian satellites.
The leak last month from the JIT files of two reports from MIVD, the Dutch military
intelligence agency, both dated September 21, 2016, has identified US and NATO military
satellite intelligence ("partner informatie") as the source for MIVD's conclusions that no
Russian BUK missile radar and launch units had crossed the border into Ukraine before or on
July 17, 2014; no BUK missile radar targeting or firing on MH17 had been detected; and no
identified Russian units on the Russian side of the border had launched missiles."
If the US and military satellite images contradict the ESA images, then one set of images
is a fabrication. We
can deduce that the ESA images are almost certainly fabrications because if no Russian buk
crossed the border then
all those photos and videos the jit lynch mob have been trumpeting are fake, essentially
reducing the jit's credibility to zero.
"... Yet the mass media, freakishly, has had absolutely nothing to say about this extremely newsworthy story. ..."
"... The mass media's stone-dead silence on the OPCW scandal is becoming its own scandal, of equal or perhaps even greater significance than the OPCW scandal itself. It opens up a whole litany of questions which have tremendous importance for every citizen of the western world; questions like, how are people supposed to participate in democracy if all the outlets they normally turn to to make informed voting decisions adamantly refuse to tell them about the existence of massive news stories like the OPCW scandal? How are people meant to address such conspiracies of silence when there is no mechanism in place to hold the entire mass media to account for its complicity in it? And by what mechanism are all these outlets unifying in that conspiracy of silence? ..."
"... This is the FOURTH leak showing how the OPCW fabricated a report on a supposed Syrian 'chemical' attack," tweeted journalist Ben Norton. "And mainstream Western corporate media outlets are still silent, showing how authoritarian these 'democracies' are and how tightly they control info." "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," tweeted journalist Aaron Maté. ..."
This is getting really, really, really weird. WikiLeaks has WikiLeaks has
published yet another set of leaked
internal documents from within the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) adding even more material to
the mountain of evidence that we've been lied to about an alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma, Syria last year which resulted
in airstrikes upon that nation from the US, UK and France.
Another strong nail in the
coffin cover of the official version of the "investigation" of the MH-17 crash in Ukraine in
2014.
However, liars will bring this six-year farce to the end. Soon the so-called "court" will
take place, and we will see another funny performance of the clowns (aka
"investigators").
The present Dutch PM Rutte is more of a CIA poodle than Tony Blair was. MH17 a case in point.
The Dutch judicial set up is populated with similar drones: the assassin of prominent Dutch
politician Pim Fortuyn is walking free after less jail time than other criminals. Holland is
gone to the dogs.
An unexpected bit of good news (if true) from the Ukrainian International Airlines Flight
PS752 crash in Tehran: one of the passengers killed on the flight was a businesswoman who ran
two companies involved in running illegal arms and parts for military drones to Libya.
Well, well; and the Ukrainian government backed her claims that there was no military cargo
aboard the company plane that was blown up in Misrata. Makes you wonder how much
jiggerypokery on the part of the Ukrainian government the USA is prepared to absorb,
considering it was allegedly Solemani's plans to 'hurt Americans' that caused the USA to
whack him. But here is a business associate of the Ukrainian government transferring military
technology to tribal warlords in Libya.
Oh, I forgot – the USA needs to fight Russia in Ukraine so that it doesn't have to
fight Russia in New York. So I guess that means they get a free pass.
You have to wonder though, Malakhova was one of two Ukrainian passengers (I think) on a jet
that was otherwise composed of diaspora Iranians. The plane was flying to Kiev and then
presumably going straight to Toronto, to judge from the number of Iranian-background
passengers with Canadian passports. What business did Malakhova have that she had been in
Tehran to catch a UIA flight to go to Kiev? She must have had a reason to be there, if not to
go sightseeing.
Lo and behold! Able to answer my own query about the reason for Malakhova's presence in
Tehran within a matter of minutes! She wasn't in Tehran just to admire the touristy sights.
Air taxis would be very convenient for ferrying small quantities of goods on short trips
within Iran or from Iran to somewhere else not far from the Iranian border – like
Afghanistan on one side, Azerbaijan on another side or Kurdish-held northern Iraq and Turkey
on yet another side.
Kevin Smith: "Higgins is currently frantically trying to prop up the Douma narrative against a mountain of evidence disproving
his conclusions. For those who’ve followed his story, it’s clear that Higgins is an intelligence asset, set up to take the fall
when the currently collapsing narratives take hold in the mainstream.
"You didn't think that one through, did you, @eliothiggins sweetie? You're not in the
ladies' lingerie trade now. This discussion is about truth, which endures, is not held together
by elastic, and is not for sale." ~Peter Hitchens responding to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat over the OPCW scandal on
Twitter – 2 January 2020.
"... I believe more people nowadays recognise that the devastating wars in Iraq and Libya and events in Syria were pushed by our governments and media. They can even accept, when you explain, that we've been assisting terrorists to unseat governments for years. But they seem hesitant of taking the next step and we need to encourage them on this path. ..."
"... This path leads to recognising the sheer evil in our midst and getting out of this mindset that criminal behavior and lying in governments and in our media is normal or should in any way be tolerated. Perhaps some people appreciate this already but don't want to address it out of concern to what they might find. Maybe some people dread the thought of a global conflict so ignore it. But we need to hammer home the consequences of simply doing nothing. ..."
"... I've been trying to think of an analogy to try to get this point across. I sometimes say to people, we wouldn't have released a serial killer like Harold Shipman from prison and appointed him Foreign Secretary. Therefore, why do we tolerate a long line of Foreign Secretaries complicit in laying waste to the world? Sadly, with this analogy most people usually look back at me blankly so I have been searching for one more complete and rooted in history which people can relate better to events today. ..."
"You didn't think that one through, did you, @eliothiggins sweetie? You're not in the
ladies' lingerie trade now. This discussion is about truth, which endures, is not held
together by elastic, and is not for sale."
Peter Hitchens responding to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat over the OPCW scandal on
Twitter – 2 January 2020.
Like many, I've been following the Douma scandal for some time and particularly since the
OPCW whistleblowers and leaked emails blew the lid off the official narrative that Assad used
chemical weapons there.
For the past few weeks he's been debating the topic with Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat, Scott Lucas and various Middle East based journalists
who created and then pushed the false narrative.
In fact, it's not really a debate. Peter Hitchens is quite literally slaughtering these
narrative managers – his logic and clear thinking – and wit exposing the numerous
gaps in their story and their desperate deflections.
Hitchens position is not exactly the same as many of us here hold – that Douma was a
clear false flag. What he is saying is the evidence points to there being no chemical attack by
the Syrian government, the pretext used for the attack on Syria. He doesn't wish to speculate
on matters which aren't conclusively proven, for example precisely on what did actually
happen.
I respect that position in many ways and his refusal to comment on the dead civilians in the
Douma images makes sense from a journalist in the mainstream. I think by having a position
which is clear and unassailable enables him to easily brush off his online detractors and not
allow them to deflect to other issues.
While I don't agree with everything he says, Hitchens has a calm and rational argument for
all the issues he covers. This puts clear ground between him and his online opponents who often
resort to childish abuse.
My 80-year old mum admires him too. She describes him as 'frightfully posh'. Perhaps someone
who might have belonged in a previous age – but I'm glad we have him in this one.
Anyway, I think we can be sure that Hitchens will continue his important work within the
remit he's chosen and others will investigate the unanswered questions which arise from the
Douma incident.
Ultimately the question about the dead civilians in the images is simply too dreadful to
ignore.
This is because if a chemical attack did not take place and Assad was not responsible it
seems highly likely that the civilians including children were murdered to facilitate a
fabrication.
And were our own intelligence agencies involved in a staged event, considering the refusal
to even establish the basic facts in the days following?
And then, of course, the resulting air strikes nearly caused us to go to war with Russia,
with all that would entail.
While these investigations continue, I think it's timely to see where these events fit into
the way the general public think and perceive wrongdoing and to try to radically to change
this.
I believe more people nowadays recognise that the devastating wars in Iraq and Libya and
events in Syria were pushed by our governments and media. They can even accept, when you
explain, that we've been assisting terrorists to unseat governments for years. But they seem
hesitant of taking the next step and we need to encourage them on this path.
This path leads to recognising the sheer evil in our midst and getting out of this mindset
that criminal behavior and lying in governments and in our media is normal or should in any way
be tolerated. Perhaps some people appreciate this already but don't want to address it out of
concern to what they might find. Maybe some people dread the thought of a global conflict so
ignore it. But we need to hammer home the consequences of simply doing nothing.
I've been trying to think of an analogy to try to get this point across. I sometimes say to
people, we wouldn't have released a serial killer like Harold Shipman from prison and appointed
him Foreign Secretary. Therefore, why do we tolerate a long line of Foreign Secretaries
complicit in laying waste to the world? Sadly, with this analogy most people usually look back
at me blankly so I have been searching for one more complete and rooted in history which people
can relate better to events today.
So, here follows an analogy of a character who lived in the 17th century. His traits, his
crimes, the political climate and peoples misguided perceptions in response can be compared to
recent events and one particular individual causing havoc in the world today.
Of course I refer to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat.
Eliot ( 'suck my balls' ) Higgins and
Titus Oates1. Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat
Higgins probably doesn't need much of an introduction here. It seems he has no specific
qualifications relevant to his role and a bit of a drop-out in terms of education.
Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no
knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo."
But this didn't prevent him blogging about world events and then setting himself up and his
site as investigator for several incidents most notably the shooting down of the MH17 passenger
plane over Ukraine and allegations of chemical weapons use in Syria. It's now known that
Bellingcat is funded by pro-war groups including the Atlantic Council
Higgins has been accused by chemical weapons experts, academics and independent journalists
on the ground of fabricating evidence to reach a predetermined outcome decided on by his
funders.
His rise to prominence was fast and apparently some media editors now refer their
journalists to Bellingcat fabrications rather than allowing them to do any journalism
themselves.
For those who've followed his story, it's clear that Higgins is an intelligence asset, set
up to take the fall when the currently collapsing narratives take hold in the
mainstream.
2. Titus Oates and the Popish Plot
Oates was a foul-mouthed
charlatan , serial liar and master of deception who lived in the 17th century. His earlier
life included being expelled from school and he was labelled a 'dunce' by people who knew him.
He became a clergyman and later joined the Navy. His career was plagued by various sex scandals
and charges of perjury.
In the 1670s during the time of Charles II, religious tensions threatened to spill over into
civil war but the pragmatic King, by and large, kept a lid on it.
However, along with Dr Israel Tonge an anti-Catholic rector, Oates started writing
conspiracy theories and inventing plots and later began writing a manuscript alleging of a plan
to assassinate King Charles II and replace him with his openly Catholic brother.
When the fabrication started to gather momentum, the King had an audience with Oates and was
unconvinced and was said to have found discrepancies in his story.
However, the tense political and religious climate at that time was ideal for conspiracy
theories and scaremongering. The King's ministers took Oates at his word and over a dozen
Catholics were executed for treason. This story created panic and paranoia lasting several
years taking the nation to the brink of civil war.
Over time Oates lies were exposed and when the Catholic King James II came to the throne, he
tried Oates with perjury and he was whipped and placed in the pillory.
After James II fled England during the so-called 'Glorious Revolution' King William and
Queen Mary pardoned Oates and gave him a pension.
For me, this whole episode has many obvious parallels with Higgins, the long-running Russia
and the anti-Semitism witch-hunts in the media and the false narratives over Iraq, Libya and
Syria. Like those in power today, Oates had a knack for getting away with it. And I guess we
can all relate this to Julian Assange – the victims or whistleblowers being punished and
the perpetrators getting off.
I had wondered why James II, often ruthless and unforgiving had not executed Oates. But
apparently the crime of perjury even then didn't carry the death sentence. The judge who
convicted Oates was said to have tried his best to finish him off through the whipping, though
he survived.
But perhaps even the King and judiciary in failing in this or not using other means at their
disposal, couldn't comprehend the enormity of his crimes. Oates was after all a rather absurd
character, open to ridicule.
Perhaps this is a bit similar to people today when discovering that Eliot Higgins is also a
foul-mouthed fraud – but they can't reconcile this comical ex-lingerie employee as a
menace to humanity.
3. Modern day
In the past few weeks I've read various older articles on Iraq and Syria. US troops
shooting people for fun from a helicopter . The perpetrators are still free – the
whistle-blowers who exposed that, and other events in prison or exile.
Last year we learned about a shocking massacre of Syrian children,
unreported in the mainstream media . Mainstream journalists through their one-sided
distortions of the conflict and silence, perpetuating the myth that the terrorists who carried
out this mass murder are freedom fighters.
And as I've mentioned, we've seen firmer evidence of what many of us knew along – that
Douma was a staged fabrication as a pretext for air-strikes and dangerously escalating the
Syrian war. The likes of Eliot Higgins and others in the media, colluding in the cover-up of
mass murder which likely facilitated this event. And for those honest journalists and experts
who bring the truth of these staged events to us,
smears will no doubt continue .
Higgins and others in the media who lie, misinform or remain silent are no better than those
shooting civilians from helicopters or starting these wars in the first place. In fact, they
have killed more and keep killing.
This modern-day Titus Oates, and others share a big responsibility for death and destruction
in the Middle East and a dangerous new Cold War.
As I say, I think people are waking up to the distorted narratives and misdirections which
have inflicted war on others. Now they need to take the next step and grasp the sheer enormity
of the crimes and the risks of global conflict if we don't act.
So, how do we achieve this and get in a position of holding the criminals and war
propagandists to account?
By confronting them directly and mercilessly. As Jeremy Corbyn should have done over the
anti-Semitism hoax. Perhaps we should adopt some of the tactics they use against the
truth-tellers and whistle-blowers. I don't mean by lies or smears. Maybe even ridiculing these
people and their nonsense might have the effect of trivialising the crimes they have
committed.
No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people for the
true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks.
We need to recognise more the seriousness of the crimes. This commentary from the usually
measured Piers Robinson about the staged event in Douma reflects the true gravity of the
situation in
terms of the OPCW complicity .
4. The hijacking of OPCW
The cover-up of evidence that the Douma incident was staged is not merely misconduct. As
the staging of the Douma incident entailed mass murder of civilians, those in OPCW who have
suppressed the evidence of staging are, unwittingly or otherwise, colluding with mass
murder."
We need to now apply this strong language to all crimes committed, be it from the soldiers
on the ground, the governments starting these wars or supplying terrorists or the media which
promote mass murder through their lies, distortions and silence when presented with the true
facts.
We need to go on the offensive and call out the criminals and spell out in no uncertain
terms what we are dealing with. With the evidence and fact-based analogies or arguments we
publish we should be using more commentary such as 'mass murderer', 'traitor' or 'terrorist
propagandist'.
This is particularly important in light of events in recent days. The assassination of
General Qasem Soleimani has been normalised in both mainstream and on social media. The people
legitimising state-sponsored murder in offices thousands of miles away from Iran, woefully
ignorant of the potential of this causing a chain of events which could visit our door
soon.
Above all, we should specifically name and shame the individuals promoting war. This needs
to be relentless. The official war narratives which have crumbled so far are ample evidence of
wrongdoing on a vast scale. So, we can be confident in doing this with the truth firmly on our
side.
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wardropper ,
No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people for the
true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks.
Yes indeed.
I was, however, reminded today of the huge mountain we yet have to climb before it can be
normal again NOT to be corrupt and wicked. The scenario was a session of acrimony in a US
Senate chamber, and according to the NYTimes, "Tensions grew so raw after midnight that Chief
Justice Roberts cut in just before 1 a.m. to admonish the managers and the president's
lawyers to "remember where they are" and return to "civil discourse." "
"Remembering where you are", when dealing with Titus Oates and other vulgar frauds is perhaps
not entirely appropriate ?
wardropper ,
Apologies, I forgot to set the first sentence in quotes
Thom ,
Hitchens may be on the level on this particular issue but it is part of a wider deception
where Hitchens poses as a friend to critical thinkers and then tells them they are helpless
and/or can do nothing about it. If he really had journalistic integrity he wouldn't be taking
a salary from the Mail on Sunday, a newspaper that relentlessly lied for the Tories at the
last election, with the help of the itelligence agencies.
Koba ,
As good as Hitchens has done here he's still at heart a Trotskyist he lives a good split and
a toothless display just like the Trotskyists he used to side with. His brother went from
Trotskyist to soft neocon and peter went from Trotskyist to an ardent Christian Conservative
in a veeeeeery short space of time. Plus there dad was deeeeep in with the establishment and
his mum Jewish. So .
Bellingcrap is just another scam like Dupes (Snopes) and Politi"facts". All of them are
funded by the Atlantic Council and the CIA front National Endowment for "Democracy". Their
cover as an "independent objective fact checking service" is about as transparent as Saran
Wrap.
tonyopmoc ,
I really liked this when I read it this morning, before the grandkids came round, but I
thought some of the comments a bit severe..
I mean this photo is of some 40 year old kid, who lives in Leicester, and his
Mum/wife/sister or whatever works in the local Post Office .
I personally had never heard of Brown Noses, and I have never personnally succeeded in
getting anything I wrote, posted above our below the line, since The Manchester Guardian
moved from Manchester to London, and whilst I do love reading some of the posters' comments
well look face it.
Even though Rhys probabaly doesn't like what this kid writes – Elliot is it? he is
hardly going to come round with a chainsaw, to cut his head off is he? He probably never even
thought of it.
He did say he is small fry, and he probably is still a virgin (been brainwashed – so
he actually belives the model doll is better. What has he got to compare it to?)
So I can't blame any of them.
There are alternatives as well as Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, and all those Dating
Websites, when almost everything you write gets deleted.
Just go down the local pub when there is a good band on. Even I can pull there, but I am
better looking than both Rhys and Elliot
I Like Girls.
I am a man. It's Normal
Just keep fit dancing and smiling, and you will be O.K.
Tony
paul ,
The prime importance of these endless hoaxes, smears, lies, fabrications and official
approved conspiracy theories, lies not so much in the events themselves as what it says about
the nature of the people who rule over us and their courtiers and handmaidens in the MSM.
It would take a whole forest of trees merely to catalogue all their lies over the years,
whether it's the Iraq Incubator Babies, the black Viagra fuelled rape gangs in Libya, the
Syrian Gas Hoaxes, 9/11, Iraq's WMD, Iran's non existent nuclear weapons, Skripal,
Russiagate, Ukrainegate, or the communist spy/ terrorist/ anti semitic smear campaign against
Corbyn. And that is only the tip of a very large iceberg. You could go back further to
Gladio, Operation Northwoods, Tonkin Gulf, the "Holocaust", Zinoviev Letter, Bayonetted
Belgian Babies, Raped Belgian Nuns, Human Bodies Made Into Soap. The list is endless.
We have been lied to consistently for years, decades, and generations. And these lies have
been peddled endlessly in the MSM, no matter how ludicrous and transparently false they are.
In the absence of direct personal knowledge or very convincing evidence to the contrary, you
just have to assume that everything we have ever been told, are being told, and will be told,
and most of the accepted historical record, are simply false. Nothing, nothing at all, can
ever be taken at face value.
And those who rule over us and who are responsible for these lies are psychopathic
subhuman filth devoid of any moral values or any redeeming features whatsoever. They are a
thousand times worse than the worst mass murderers or child killers who have ever been
through our courts. The Moors Murderers, the Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers, were seriously
damaged individuals who killed a handful of victims. And they did their own dirty work. The
Blairs, the Campbells, the Straws, the Bushes, the Cheneys, the Rumsfelds, the Allbrights,
the Macrons, the Camerons, the Netanyahus, the Trumps, have the blood of millions on their
hands. They and their wire pullers are responsible for the death, starvation and misery of
tens and hundreds of millions.
So when Blair, or Johnson, or Trump or whoever is interviewed on television, you have to
remember that individual is a thousand times worse than the Moors Murderers, and we would
actually be that much better off if Brady or Hindley were ruling over us. They deserve no
respect or deference or legitimacy. They plot the murders of millions and the starvation of
tens of millions – and laugh and giggle as they do so. They should be simply recognised
for what they awe – psychopathic subhuman filth.
I do agree with you Paul and of course all you say is true. One of the main problems is that
these people have the power to build artificial constructs sufficient for the masses to
believe and perpetuated through their bought and paid for MSM whose journalists are mere foot
soldiers and wish only to get their pay checks. They have no reason to question the lies and
distortions pedaled to them by TPTB – they merely repeat the false narrative:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not
understanding it!" – Upton Sinclair
And we, the great 99%, have little power to change things except within our local network.
We can shout all we like on social media but it changes nothing until the great crisis
reoccurs and perhaps the masses will rise and demand a just and equitable system. Until that
day perhaps this little video will provide an understanding:
The business of the MSM throughout the ages has been to traumatise or at least just generally
worry the public with headlines focused on fear, envy, anger, revenge, and hate. Include all
five in your story and you're well on the way to a Pulitzer Prize, bestowed on the profession
by one of the great muckrakers of all time. It's not incidental that there have been a
disturbing number of winners that have turned out to be dissembling frauds. Add to this the
fact that 'journalism' training apparently does not teach entrants to distinguish the
difference between opinion and news, and the die is cast: propaganda as news.
Dungroanin ,
Here is what BellEndScat supporting Rusbridger is moaning about.
"For some years now – largely unreported – two chancery court judges have been
dealing with literally hundreds of cases of phone hacking against MGN Ltd and News Group, the
owners, respectively, of the Daily Mirror and the Sun (as well as the defunct News of the
World).
The two publishers are, between them, forking out eye-watering sums to avoid any cases going
to trial in open court. Because the newspaper industry lobbied so forcefully to scrap the
second part of the Leveson inquiry, which had been due to shine a light on such matters, we
can only surmise what is going on.
But there are clues. Mirror Group (now Reach) had by July 2018 set aside more than
£70m to settle phone-hacking claims without risking any of them getting to court. The
BBC reported last year that the Murdoch titles had paid out an astonishing £400m in
damages and calculated that the total bill for the two companies could eventually reach
£1bn."
"Because the newspaper industry lobbied so forcefully to scrap the second part of the
Leveson inquiry, which had been due to shine a light on such matters, we can only surmise
what is going on."
-- --
Completely ignoring that the Integrity Iniative infested Guardian ITSELF objected to the
recommendation of Levesons thoroughly public Inquiry and opposition to a independent press
regulator!
It would have been a building block and certainly stopped most of the continued press
misbehaviour over the last 5 years.
Neither Fish nor Fowl Mr Rusbridger. More sinner that saint, more like.
Hugh O'Neill ,
Going to the heart of what Bellingcat, MI6 and CIA is Pompeo's: "We lie, we cheat, we steal."
These evil filth are devoid of any moral code and have no respect whatsoever for the laws of
God or Man. At which point, consider Moses' (how apt) Ten Commandments. There among them is:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness". Think what you will of these Ten, but as a moral code,
they were quite useful.
Richard Le Sarc ,
Would that all these scum could share the fate of their progenitor, Streicher-without the '
necktie party'. Life at hard labour would do the lot of them much good.
Brianeg ,
I looked at the Veterans Today link and it all sounds very plausible'
However in today's world nothing makes sense especially when the questions arise.
Is it possible to change the signal of an aircrafts transponder remotely. Can the target
acquisition radar on the missile be spoofed remotely. Just why did the flight control officer
sanction the take off of this plane in the middle of a war unless they were party to the
whole thing.. Just what were the six Israeli F-35 jets doing flying close to the Iranian
border?
Okay there is a lot of smoke but just where is the fire.
Just as interesting is that none of the twelve Iranian missiles was intercepted and there
are rumours that the Iranians were able to take out of action American air defences.
I am sure that like with Douma when the majority of NATO missiles were intercepted by
missiles that were decades old, you wonder what might happen when most of the middle east is
covered by the S-300 and later versions.
This is a story that has got a long way to run and we might never hear the ending.
Dungroanin ,
Facts are inconvenient.
Many planes took off.
This one was delayed by the pilot 'to remove overloading'.
Reports of Cruise missiles heading in.
The thing about 'chips' is they could easily be identified by putting them in a black box
and watching what they do using a chip which only does that!
The whole bs about it's THEM not US crap falls away. Just need some open source simple
'custodian' chip manufacturer to make that available. If it can be made a 'gate keeper' than
we are all safe.
Mucho ,
"It sounds a bit MAGA. "
After this, I will never, ever read any of your comments ever again. Get lost!
Mucho ,
You talk so much crap. Please, keep it to yourself
Dungroanin ,
I ain't saying that is your opinion am I?
The bit I watched was him being gung-ho about getting back 'control of microprocessors'
!!!
There is a big difference between designing chips and 'manufacturing' facilities'.
Have you never wondered why most actual building of small electrical component equipment
takes place in Asia?
I don't care wherher you read my comments- i am free to post what I want on whatevet
article and whoevers comment. And stick to facts.
Mucho ,
"The bit I watched ".
Honestly, I am so tired of people who comment on things they know nothing about. Everything
you say is wrong, because you are speaking from a position of total ignorance, because you
haven't watched the films.
Watch 1 to 3. Watch 22 and 23 ALL THE WAY THROUGH, not skimming. Then comment. Every
inaccurate comment you make is covered in detail. Honestly it's no wonder we're so fucked.
From 2005 after one google search, time spent on this, 10 seconds:
"While Yona was developed in partnership with one of Intel's California centers, the 65nm
microprocessor product is the first to be developed in its entirety, both the architecture
and strategy, by Intel engineers at its Israel plants in Haifa and Yakum. " https://www.israel21c.org/intels-new-chip-design-developed-in-israel/
You know zilch, you understand nothing, you make assumptions, you don't watch or read the
material, and then in your total ignorance, you spew your feeble thoughts on this forum.
Moron
Mucho ,
You define the phrase "ignorant Brit"
Dungroanin ,
Mucho since you FAILED instantly in your promise to ignore me – i will respond to your
toy throwing out of the parambulator.
First just telling people to WATCH something without explaining what the salient point to
be learnt – is not the way to influence or educate.
I prefer reading an argument- I definitely do not spend hours watching TV or listening to
propaganda by msm / indy or 'shock jocks' – that last was the personality I saw and
didn't feel the need to hear anymore as I don't when Nigel Farage and his ilk do on the radio
here.
If you want to inform or prove something to me or anyone else kindly post a link to a
written piece.
Second, chips are designed eveywhere there is such competence. Chip manufacturing mainly
improved theough research in top universities.
The UK was a lead chip designer too.
None of that means the Israelis haven't monopolosed tech and own many patents. The fact is
the Israelis ARE part of the 5+1 eyed world Empire – they are the plus one. Snowdens
whistleblowing makes absolutely clear that the +1 gets a higher clearance than the +4.
That's as nice as I am prepared to be, so finally, that last paragraph is what is known as
PROJECTION. Look it up and learn that it comes from your fav bogeymen brainfuckers.
That is some serious self-hate you have going on – work on it.
Take it easy ok?
Mucho ,
Number 23 is totally relevant too, going deep into chips, backdooring and kill switch usage
Koba ,
So the mocking of maga is what set you off? Fuck maga and it's idiot supporters great nations
don't slaughter civilians for capital
chris morris is very funny has a fine body of twisted comedick works
for all his charm his role is too destroy society degrade
he is khazar after all
sacha baron co hen the names speaks for itself an empty cruel tool
never trust a coen cohen khan or cowen or co they cookoo
eliot mcfuck higgins is not oirish
he is not certainly related to snooker loopy or is it darts i cannot remember hero alex
higgins.
eliot"s dad is rita katz from site intel group amaq news
his mom barbera lerner spector
or is it vice versa
versa vice
whatever
shirley you
get my the friends of the oirish israel drift
so to speaks
or sum such
Mucho ,
Brilliant, insightful, logical hypothesis of the recent plane downing over Iran by Jeremy
Rothe Kushel. Ignore the video, this is about the written article.
For further info about Israeli tech domination, what it is, where it comes from and the
implications of this, go to Brendon O Connell's YT channel. Number 22 in his list is very
important.
Mucho ,
Jeremy Rothe-Kushel is a very important member of the truth community, in no small part due
to the fact that he is an Ashkenazi Jew. My personal belief is that in the end, the Jewish
community will play a pivotal role in weeding out the evil that rules over us. I wish we
didn't have these labels, that we could have true freedom to play our chosen role in our God
created realm, but at this stage in the game, we're stuck with our divide and rule labels and
systems of control.
Jeremy's style is to the point, he has great depth of knowledge, an encyclopedic knowledge of
his field and is a highly astute commentator. He presents a lot of complex information in
fairly easy to digest chunks with his co-host, Greg McCarron, on their show "The Antedote" on
YT, as well as doing a lot of guerilla style activism in US politics. Highly recommended.
norman wisdom ,
i met elliot many years ago
the chap on the 8 year old lap top above
we called him fat face down the synagogue ohh how we laughed
he laughed as well everytime someone said it
such fun
are rabbi one day organised a trip and lecture tour of chatham house the belly of the
beast.
we learnt all about how tough regime change was and how difficult it is to do on a bbc size
budget.
what we learnt was that having are people everywhere really helped
scripted up to speed influencer roles in media in public on track on page working cog
like.
a kind of khazar collective non semites only for security reasons of course.
we could work from a very low pound dollar and shekels base and still be very effective.
never under estimate the benjamins or elliots it is folks like this that are the real hero
of the oded yinon
yes sir
already my life
fat face eliot boy done good
and like all khazar he hates the sephardim jewisher and the unclean arab which is shirley
a bonus is it not
George Mc ,
First off, if folks haven't a clue who Harold Shipman is, you're not going to get far with
Titus Oats. At the most they might think it's a character from Gormenghast.
Second, I initially misread the article and thought that the figure from the 17th century
actually WAS Higgins of Bellingcat. And if that seems an absurd assumption to make, even
temporarily, it doesn't seem much more absurd than some of the stuff he says e.g.
I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo.
The point has been raised that there are psyops perpetrated with a malicious sense of
humour as if to say, "These suckers will swallow anything". Higgins with his "education" from
Arnold and Rambo may be an example of one of those jokes.
Third, and to end on an optimistic note, I like the 17th century sentencing and recommend
we bring it back:
and he was whipped and placed in the pillory.
Dungroanin ,
Admin – a suggestion on keeping recent articles available from the top of the page.
Problem: As you add new aricles at top left the ones on the very right drop away! Almost
as if being binned into a memory hole.
Solution: allow a scroll at the right hand edge so that these older links are easily
available to readers. Only a minor coding change without any change to your front page.
Tallis Marsh ,
I concur! I'm sure many of us will appreciate a scroll on the right hand edge so we can
access the older articles. Thanks in advance, OffG!
Oliver ,
HM Armed Forces operations in Syria follow the doctrine of Major General Sir Frank Kitson who
learnt his stuff in Kenya in the 1950s. Murder, torture, rape the staples of the British
military's modern terrorist ability. NATO doctrine too.
This is an important article: one of the few that dares to express that Douma et al are not
mere false flags they a darkly psychotic form of 'snuff propaganda porn' (including the
recycling and rearanging of 'props' that were until recently animate human souls with a
lifetime of possibility abnegated for ideology). The Working Group on Syria is part of a
small counter-narrative subset – along with Sister Agnes Mariam, Vanessa Beeley, RT (on
occasion), UK Column, The Indicter, Prof. Marcello Ferrada de Noli – who are willing to
state plainly that this is child murder. Now I wholeheartedly commend Kevin that we should
name and shame the culprits and their supporters.
"No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people
for the true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks."
I had a similar epiphany in early 2016. The barbaric of murder of starved and thirsty
children at Rashidin – Syrian innocence lured by much needed sweets and drinks only to
be blown apart in front of their mothers. Anyone who supports the White Helmets terrorist
construct and their NATO-proxy child-murderers needs to be exposed. But what if that trail of
exposure leads back to the leader of the Labour party: who had just personally endorsed the
charity funding of the White Helmets? And continued to support the Jo Cox Foundation of
Syrian humanitarian bombers and R2P interventionists? Which itself is a front for the dark
money web of 'philanthrocapitalism' that is the shadow support network for regime change
crimes against humanity. This is when righteous indignation meets the dark wall of silence
around the social construction of reality. Especially if you put Jeremy Corbyn in the
frame.
What this means is the ability to frame dark actors for the true evil they are has to be a
two-way flow. Meaning is created across networks, not just by naming but by naming and
agreeing across narrative communities. Again, this is not abstruse: it is social reality.
Social reality is not reality: it is a consensual constructivism. Significant numbers of
others have to be in a position of consensual agreement in order to challenge the dominant
narrative(s). So I echo the sentiment that many can see that the dominant narrative –
especially concerning Syria – is deeply flawed. But they are as yet unwilling to admit
that the depth of the flaw is in fact a tear in social reality that cannot be easily
healed.
This is the aspect of social reality called 'universe maintenance'. Doxa is the reality
constructing belief set – the episteme of interacting beliefs. The narrative has two
main aspects: ortho-doxa and hetero-doxa – the orthodox maintaining and heterodox
subverting discourses. In order to truly subvert the hegemonic orthodoxy – there has to
be a social moment of criticality when the heterodox is no longer deniable. To reach that
point: the intrajecting true has to be believable to the hegemonic orthodoxy. Now we have a
third mode: para-doxa when the true 'state of affairs' is not believable – it is easily
rejected as paradoxical to the reigning consensus covenant of the true. This is universe
maintaining: whereby the the totality of the dominant discourse actually subsumes or repels
any paradox as a half-truth or ameliorated, disarmed less-than-true ('conspiracy theory').
This is known as 'recuperation'. Anything that meets the dominant discourse has to be
explained in the terms of the dominant discourse accommodative and recommending itself to the
dominant discourse. Which then becomes a part of the dominant universe of discourse.
A moment of the true is like a barb to a bubble. It has to be contained and wrapped in
narrative that describes and explains it into a consumable form. The full realisation of the
propagandic child murder in Syria – tacitly supported by the Labour Party and Jeremy
Corbyn in particular – would destroy the symbolic universe of social reality. Of which
it is my personal experience no one really wants to do. The correlations, direct and indirect
links, and universally maintained orthodoxy of narrative discourse point to an accomodation.
An explanation or multivariate set of explanations that problem shift and ascribe blame to
imaginary actors. To deflect or defend the personal self. Because the personal self is
independently situated outside the social sphere. Or is it?
Seeing the real event as it happens requires the perspicacity of social inclusion. We all
create social reality together: with our without layers of dualising exclusion that protects
us from the way the world really is. Who would vote to legitimise the supporters of NATO and
the child-murderers of Syria? 31 million legitimising independent social actors just did. Do
you suppose they did so in full knowledge that it is child-murder they were supporting? Or
did they create universe maintaining accommodations to the truth? That is how powerful the
screening discourses and legitimising orthodoxic narrative mythology is. It is not that it
cannot be subverted: its just that calling out the true evil has to be heard in unison by
large or social small assemblages willing to totally change everything – including
themselves. In order to transition to a different social reality one that accommodates the
truth. One which will look nothing like the social reality we choose to maintain as is.
Francis Lee ,
My first attempt didn't get through. Herewith second.
It seems to me that the internal affairs of the Russian Federation, although they may have
some impact on external geopolitical issues, are a matter for them. At the present time the
relevant question regarding the RF is as follows: Question 1. Is Russia a revionist state
intent on an expansionist foreign policy? Answer NO. But it is not going to tolerate NATO
expansion into its own strategic zones, namely, Ukraine, Georgia and the North Caucusas.
Question 2. Is the Anglo-Zionist empire in open of pursuit of a world empire intent on
destroying any sovereign state – including first and foremost Russia – which
stands in its way? Answer YES. This really is so blatant that anyone who is ethnically
challenged should seek psychiatric help. In Polls conducted around the world the US is always
cited as the most dangerous enemy of world peace, including in the US itself. Thus a small
influential (unfortunately deranged) cabal based in the west has insinuated its way into the
institutions of power and poses a real and present danger to world peace.
This being the case it is imperative to push all and any 'normal' western governments and
shape public opinion and discourse (except the nut-jobs like Poland and the Baltics) into
diplomacy. Wind down NATO just as the Warsaw Pact was wound down. that will do for starters.
Of course the PTB in all the western institutions – the media (whores) the deep state,
the Atlantic Council, the Council on Foreign Relations, Chatham House the Arms merchants, the
security services GCHQ, the CIA, Mossad and the rest will oppose this with all the power at
their command. This is the present primary site of struggle, mainly propagandistic, cultural
and economic, but with overtones of kinetic warfare.
Similar diplomatic initiatives must be directed at China. Yes, I know all about China's
social credit policy, I don't particularly like the idea of 24 hour system of surveillance,
and I wouldn't want to live there, but is already a virtual fait accompli in the west. Again
it bears repeating that sovereign states should be left to their own devices. After all
'States have neither permanent friends of allies, only permanent interests. (Lord Palmerston,
19 century British Statesman). No more 'humanitarian interventions' thank you very much. How
about Mind our own Business non-interventions.
I make no apologies for being a foreign policy realist – if that hasn't become
apparent by this stage!
BigB ,
Francis:
The Russian Federation is involved is strategic partnership with China in consolidating
the Eurasian 'supercontinent' into the world island. One which is slowly being drawn together
into a massive market covering 70% of the world's population, 75% of energy resources, and
70% of GDP. I'd call that expansionist, wouldn't you?
Market mechanisms and methodology are exponentially expansionist, extractivist, and
extrapolative. Market propaganda is free and equal exchange coupled with mutual development
through comparative advantage. Everyone benefits, right?
No: markets operate as vast surplus value extractors that only operate unequally to
deliver maximum competitive advantage to the suprasovereign core. Surplus value valorises
surplus capital which cannot be contained in a single domestic market: so it seeks to exploit
underdeveloped foreign markets setting up dependencies and peripheries in the satellite
states. Which keeps them maldeveloped. In short: Russia and China's wealth is not just their
own.
Russia and China are globalisation now. Globalist exponential expansionism, extractivism,
and extrapolation is the repression of humanism and destruction of the biosphere. It can't
stop growing in the cancer stage of hyper-capitalism. We are currently consuming every
resource at a material throughput increase of 3% per annum year on year. That's a 23 year
exponential doubling of material resources. And a 46 year doubling of the doubling. How long
before globalisation uses everything? How far into the race to the bottom will the market
collapse?
It would be really nice to return to a Westphalian System of non-expansionist,
non-extractivist sovereign nation states. It is just not even plausible under market
mechanisms of extraction. There can be no material decoupling and development remains
contingent on an impossible infinity: because development remains parallel and assymetrically
maintained. And all major resources are depleting exponentially too. Including the nominative
renewable and sustainable ones.
Degrowth; self-sufficiency; localised 'anti-fragility', steady-state; asymmetric
development of the marginalised and the peripheralised; regenerative agroecological
agriculture; human development not abstract market development; are just some of the
pre-requisites of a return to sovereign states. Russia 'sovereigntist' globalisation is the
expansionist opposite to that. The RF is part of the biggest market in the world that hoovers
up as much surplus value as it can before sending a large tranche of it to London. As much as
$25bn a year in capital flight into the offshore nexus of secrecy jurisdictions. It's a
globalist expansionist market mechanism that hoovers all vitality out of the life-ground.
That: I call expansionist and imperialist of which Russia and China are now the major
part.
Francis Lee ,
"The Russian Federation is involved is strategic partnership with China in consolidating the
Eurasian 'supercontinent' into the world island. One which is slowly being drawn together
into a massive market covering 70% of the world's population, 75% of energy resources, and
70% of GDP. I'd call that expansionist, wouldn't you?"
No, I wouldn't actually. Building roads, rail connections and other trade routes doesn't
strike me as imperial expansion. No-one is being forced to join the Shanghai Cooperation
Organization (SCO) or into reconfiguring their internal political and economic structures, as
the US does in Latin America or as the British did in India and Southern Africa. (East India
Company and the British British South Africa Chartered Company). The SCO is a voluntary
arrangement. Uzbekistan for example has decided not to join the central Asian Eurasian
Economic Union – well that's its prerogative. No-one is going to send any gun-boats to
force them. (I am aware that Uzbekistan is a landlocked country, but I was talking
figuratively.)
The EEU's genesis has along with the SCO and BRI has been forced upon the China/Russia
axis as part of an emerging counter-hegemonic alliance against the US's imperial
aggrandisement with its kowtowing vassals in tow. Russia has no claims on any of its
neighbours since it is already endowed with ample land and mineral deposits. China is a key
part of this essentially geopolitical bloc quite simply because the US imperial hegemon is
determined to stop China's development by all means necessary including the dragooning of
contiguous military bases in US proxy states around China's maritime borders.
A distinction should be made between rampant imperialism of the Anglo-zi0nist empire, and
the response of an increasingly bloc of states who find both their sovereignty and even their
existence threatened by the imperial juggernaut. What exactly did you expect them to do given
the hostility and destructive intent of the Empire? Defence against imperialism is not
imperialism. The defence of autonomy and sovereignty of international society and the
creation of an anti-hegemonic have the potential to finally create a transformative new world
order (and goodness knows we need one) announced at the end of the Cold War in 1991. This
ambition finds support not only in Russia and China but in other countries ready to align
with them, but also in many western countries. I obviously need to put the question again.
Who is and who is not the greatest threat to world peace? Surely to pose the question is to
answer it.
Dungroanin ,
Agree Francis.
There is a move to suggest that the Old Empire retains a 'maritime' world and the SCO
confines itself to the Eurasian land mass.
Dream on.
The Empire is DEAD. Long live the new Empire!
BigB ,
Who is the greatest threat to world peace and to the world itself? We are. The global carbon
consumption/pollution bourgeoisie. It is the global expansionist mindset that is increasing
its demands for growth – as the only solution to social problems, maldevelopment, and
maldistribution caused by excessive growth. Supply has to be met by exponentially expanding
markets. Whether this is voluntaristic or coerced makes very little difference to the market
cancer subsuming the globe. Benign or aggressive forms of cancer are still cancer. And the
net effect is the same.
Russia and China – the 'East' – uphold exactly the same corporate model of
global governance that the 'West' does. Which has been made clear in every joint communique
– especially BRICS communiques. I have made the case – following Professor
Patrick Bond – that BRICS in particular (a literal Goldman Sachs globalist marketing
ploy) – are sub-imperial, not anti-imperial. All their major institutions are dollar
denominated for loans; BRI finance is in dollars; BRICS re-capitalised the IMF; Contingency
Reserve Arrangements come with an IMF neoliberalising structural adjustment policy; etc. It
is the same model East and West. One is merely the pseudo-benign extension of the other. The
alternative to neoliberal globalisation is neoliberal globalisation. This became radiantly
clear at SPIEF 2019: TINA there is no alternative.
The perceived alternative is the reproduction of neoliberalism – which has long been
think-tanked and obvious – and its transformation from 'globalisation 3.0' to
'globalisation 4.0' trade in goods and services, with the emphasis on a transition to
high-speed interconnectivity and decoupled service economies. Something like the
Trans-Eurasian Information Super Highway (TASIM)? With a sovereigntist and social inclusivity
compact. So the neoliberal leopard can change its spots?
No. Whilst your argument is sound and well constructed: it is reliant on the early 20th
century Leninist definition of 'imperialism' as a purely militarist phenomena. Imperialism
mutated since then – from military to financial (which are not necessarily exclusive
sets) – and is set to metastasise again into 'green imperialism' of man over man (and
it is an andrarchic principle) and man (culture) over nature. Here your argument falls down
to an ecological and bio-materialist critique. Cancer is extractivist and expansionist
wherever it grows.
Russia is the fourth largest primary energy consumer on the planet. Disregarding hydro
– which is not truly ecological – it has a 1% renewable penetration. It is a
hydrocarbon behemoth set to grow the only way it knows how – consuming more
hydrocarbons. They cannot go 'green': no one can. And a with a global ecological footprint of
3.3 planets per capita, per annum, this is not sustainable. Now or ever.
So a distinction needs to be made between the old rampant neoliberal globalisation model
(3.0) – the Anglo-Zionist imperialist model – and the emergent neoliberal
globalisation model (4.0) of Russia/China's rampant ecological imperialism? And a further
distinction needs to be made about what humanity has to do to survive this distinction
between aggressive and quasi-benign cancer forms. Because we will be just as dead, just as
quick if we cannot even identify the underlying cancer we are all suffering from.
Koba ,
Big B sit down ultra! China and Russia rent empires and have no desire to be! If you're a
left winger you're another poor example of one and more than likely a Trotskyist
Richard Le Sarc ,
Love the nickname, Josef.
Louis Proyect ,
This is because if a chemical attack did not take place and Assad was not responsible it
seems highly likely that the civilians including children were murdered to facilitate a
fabrication.
And were our own intelligence agencies involved in a staged event, considering the refusal
to even establish the basic facts in the days following?
-- -
This is the sort of conclusion you must come to if you are into Islamophobic conspiracy
theories. The notion that this kind of slaughter took place to "facilitate" a false flag is
analogous to the 9/11 conspiracism that was on display here a while back and that manifested
itself through the inclusion of NYU 9/11 Truther Mark Crispin Miller on Tim Hayward's
Assadist propaganda team.
Sad, really.
Harry Stotle ,
Go on Louis, remind us about the 'terrorist passport' miraculously found at the foot of the
collapsed tower with a page coveniently left open displaying a 'Tora Bora' stamp – I
kove that bit.
I mean who, apart from half the worlds scientific community is not totally convinced by
such compelling evidence, especially when allied to the re-writing of the laws of physics in
order to rationlise the ludicrous 2 planes 3 towers conspiracy theory?
Next you'll be telling us it was necessary for the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq for
reasons few American'srecall beyond the neocon fantasy contructed on 11th Septemember,
2001.
Dave Hansell ,
It's clear to a blind man on a galloping horse from this comment of yours Mr Proyect that
concepts such as objective evidence, logical and rational deduction, the scientific method
etc are beyond your ken.
Faced with the facts of a collapsing narrative of obvious bullshit and lies you have
bought into, which you are incapable of facing up to, it is unsurprising that you are reduced
to such puerile school playground level deflections.
So come on, try getting out of the gutter and upping your game. Because this fare is
nothing short of sad and pathetic.
We know from the evidence of those who actually know their arse from their elbow on these
matters that the claims of an attack using chemical weapons on this site are
unsustainable.
Which leaves the issue of the bodies at the site. Given they did not lose their lives as a
result of the unscientific bullshit explanation you desperately and clearly want to be the
case the question is how did those civilians lose their lives? How did their corpses find
their way to that location?
Did Assad and his "regime" murder them and move the bodies to that site (over which they
had no control) in order to create a false flag event to get themselves falsely accused of an
NBC attack Louis? Because that's the only reasonable and rational deduction one can imply
from your argument and approach.
It is certainly more reasoned, rational and in keeping with the scientific method (you
might want to try it sometime) to surmise that the bodies on site, having not been the result
of the claimed and unsustainable narrative you have naively committed to, either died on site
from some other cause or were brought to the site for the purpose of creating your fantasy
narrative.
In the latter case it is further a matter of rational and reasoned deduction that such an
occurrence could only be carried it in circumstances in which whoever carried it out had
actual, effective and physical control of a geographical location and area situated within a
wider conflict zone.
Again, it remains a piece of factual reality that this location was not under the control
of the Assad 'regime.' Not least because otherwise there would be no logical or rational
military reason for the de facto Syrian Government and it's armed forces to waste resources
attacking it.
Unless of course he buys I to the conspiracy theory and hat they somehow organised a false
flag implicating themselves?
I'm sure everyone else here in the reality based community is waiting with bated breath
for you to 'explain' how they did this Louis.
I know I am. I could do with a good laugh.
George Mc ,
This is the sort of conclusion you must come to if you are into Islamophobic conspiracy
theories.
Umm – the assumption that Muslims DIDN'T do it is "Islamophobic"? Even on your own
terms you're not making much sense these days, Louis.
Hi I'm Louis an unrepentant Marxist and I willfully refuse to use block-quotes.
Richard Le Sarc ,
More proyectile vomitus in defence of child-murdering salafist vermin. How low can this
creature descend?
Louis Proyect ,
Richard, such abusive language only indicates your inability to discuss the matter at hand.
In general, a detached sarcasm works much better in polemics. You need to read Lenin to see
how it is done. I should add that I am referring to V.I. Lenin, not John Lenin who wrote
"Crippled Inside".
Richard Le Sarc ,
You defended the salafist butchers with lies, proyectile-do you not even comprehend your own
sewage? Or did someone else write it and you just appended your paw-print?
Dave Hansell ,
Apologies here. There is an open goal and the ball needs to be put in the back of the net:
Seems that Louis here is well ahead of the curve in terms of Fukuyama's well known
observation about the end of history.
For Louise history, in terms of the progress and development of human knowledge, stopped
around a century ago with whatever Lenin wrote.
But that's what happens to those who only read one book.
Sad really.
Dungroanin ,
You come across more as Yaxley – Lenin mr Tommy Proyect – but he is a MI5 stooge
unlike you cough cough.
Koba ,
Lenin hates Trotsky! Trotsky was a power mad maniac who wanted a permanent war state to
somehow spread his specific brand of "ahem" socialism, which won't win you friends! "Hi yeah
sorry we killed your family in a war we started to save you but yippee Trotsky is now in
charge so stop complaining"! You're just a bunch of liars the trots
Maggie ,
learn to use the internet which has the information you need to learn the truth:
Maggie don't take jimmy bore as some truth teller he's a bland progressive with revolutionary
slogans like proyect! He also has a habit of equating Stalin with Hitler in that god awful
nasal accent of his
Richard Le Sarc ,
Thems White Helmets is always so neat and tidy. Their mammies must have insisted that they
always look their best.
paul ,
The British taxpayer funded head choppers and throat slitters in Syria routinely committed
massacres and filmed their victims. The resulting footage was passed off by tame media hacks
as "evidence" of regime atrocities.
Koba ,
Death to the Trotskyists
Fuck proyect your name calling says it all!
Islamophobes indeed?! What an idiot
Harry Stotle ,
The alternative media, and a smattering of truth tellers are locked in an asymmetrical
information-war with the establishment – with an all too obvious 'David & Goliath'
sort of dynamic underlying it.
The question asked at the heart of this article is how to break the vice like grip
information managers hold over various geopolitical narratives, referencing events in Douma
in particular.
Alnost reflexively 9/11 comes to mind – a fairly unambiguous example of mass murder
for which the official account does not withstand even the most cursory form of scrutiny.
Professionals even went so far as to purger themselves while the investigating committee
admitted they were 'set up to fail' (to quote its chairman).
Yet the public, instead of shredding Bush, limb from limb (for the lies that were told)
rolled onto their back while the neoncons tickled their collective belly as you might do with
a particulalrly adorable puppy,
So if we can't even get to the bottom of events in the middle of New York what realistic
chance of doing so in a hostile war zone like Douma?
On balance racism, together with other forms of collective loathing is the most likely
reason why this unsatisfactory state of affairs is unlikely to change.
A collective 'them and us' mindset makes it far easier for information managers to
manipulate a visceral hatred and fear of 'the other'.
Today it is Qasem Soleimani westerners are taugyt to despise, yesterday it was Bashar
al-Assad, before that Vladimir Putin, Saddam Hussein, Muammar al-Gaddafi, Nicolás
Maduro . the list just goes on and on.
Information managers simply wind the public up so that collective anger can be directed
toward governments or individuals they are trying to bring down – recent history tells
us that the public are largely oblivious to this process, so thus never learn from their
mistakes.
Perhaps one thing western leaders, and the US in particular can always rely on, is the
ease with which the public can be persuaded to believe that certain bogeymen pose a grave
threat to 'our way of life' while failing to notice that it is in fact our own leaders who
are carrying out the worst atrocities.
harry law ,
Harry Stotle, .."Perhaps one thing western leaders, and the US in particular can always rely
on, is the ease with which the public can be persuaded to believe that certain bogeymen pose
a grave threat to 'our way of life'. That's true Hermann Goring had it about right with this
quote
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk
his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one
piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for
that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who
determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is
a democracy or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Here is the cardinal rule about government -- everything it says through its
spokespersons, hired guns, public relations adepts, and the mockingbird corporate media should
be considered a self-serving lie, or at best a distortion hammered into shape to fit a
predefined agenda.
For instance, we should question who is ultimately responsible for the shootdown of the
Ukrainian airliner in Tehran following the assassination of Qassem Soleimani.
Former CIA military intelligence officer
Philip Giraldi believes there is a possibility Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752
was a false flag designed to put further pressure on the government of Iran and feed the USAID
"opposition" to the mullahs.
Giraldi writes "there just might be considerably more to the story involving cyberwarfare
carried out by the U.S. and possibly Israeli governments."
False Flag? Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran
Shootdown https://t.co/DHpDjGrIGf
What seems to have been a case of bad judgements and human error does, however, include
some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly
experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped
transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with
the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.
Giraldi explains the
SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be hacked or
"spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take control. The
United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can fool enemy
radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also means
fooling the operator. The Guardian has also reported independently how the United States
military has long been developing systems that can from a distance alter the electronics and
targeting of Iran's available missiles.
Naturally, this possibility is not even mentioned by the corporate war propaganda media,
with the notable exception of The Guardian. Instead, we are pelted with tweets and news
articles purporting to show just how angry the Iranian people supposedly are over the
shootdown, accidental or otherwise.
Kimia Alizadeh, the only Iranian woman to win an Olympic medal, announced that she had
defected. She is part of growing public outrage in Iran after the military admitted to
shooting down a Ukraine International Airlines jet. https://t.co/NkwtCTP0yw
The establishment media, long-serving as war propagandists, would have you believe the
people of Iran care more about the shootdown of an passenger airliner than the four-decade long
economic war against them waged by the USG, Israel, and Saudia Arabia -- a war that has the
possibility of breaking out into a conflict that will kill far more than the 176 who died when
two missiles hit flight PS752.
This reminds me of a murderous trick pulled by the Israelis. In September 2018, Syrian
anti-aircraft defenses shot
down a Russian military plane near the Hmeimim airbase where the Russians stage military
operations against USG supported terrorists in Syria (and invited, along with Iran and
Hezbollah, to do so by Syria, unlike the illegal American occupation and the apparently endless
Israeli air raids).
"A Russian military spokesman said Israeli F-16 pilots were using the Russian plane as a
shield while carrying out missile strikes against targets in Syria's Latakia province and put
it in the line of fire from Syrian anti-aircraft batteries," The
Guardian reported at the time.
Russia's defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, told a senior Israeli official that Israel bore
"full responsibility" for the incident and the death of the Russian crew, a military
spokesman said later on Tuesday. Israel's ambassador in Moscow was summoned to the Russian
foreign ministry over the incident.
Putin let it go, however, realizing that pushing the issue too far would worsen the conflict
and possibly result in further Russian casualities.
Such caution, however, cannot be attributed to the USG and certainly not Israel. Bibi
Netanyahu, the Israeli PM, said Bashar al-Assad and the Syrians were solely responsible for the
attack.
No such caution or diplomacy can be expected from the USG and its current loudmouth
know-nothing president, Donald Trump. The death of nearly two hundred people is simply an
excuse to whip up hysteria and push forward the covert war against Iran.
First and foremost, when you read the "news" dispensed by the war propaganda media, you
should assume, unless otherwise proven and verified independently, that what they say about
Iran and the Middle East is nothing less than a carelessly and hastily assembled pack of lies,
distortion, and omissions, all designed to destroy Iran and kill thousands, possibly millions
of innocent men, women, and children.
*
Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your
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Kurt Nimmo writes on his blog, Another Day in the Empire, where this article was
originally published. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research.
"The accidental and most regrettable downing of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight
PS-752, may involve more than human error under incredibly tense conditions. With the plane's
IFF transponder switched off, the Tor missile defense system, which had reverted to manual
operation because of an unknown source jamming communications, would have automatically
identified the plane as "hostile". The Iranian missile operator, unable to contact higher-ups
for verification due to the disrupted communications and given the high level of alert, had
little basis to question the hostile tag applied by Tor to the aircraft.
Given that the US military has known capabilities to alter or mask IFF transponder
signals, as does the Israeli regime, it is entirely possible that this tragedy, which led
some protesters to blame the Iranian government, may have been deliberately caused by the US
in collusion with its Zionist ally in hopes of triggering their goal of regime change.
While no clear evidence of tampering with the transponder has surfaced as yet, it is known
that the 737-800, whose registration or "tail number" was UR-PSR, was photographed at the
Israeli entity's Ben Gurion Airport five times since March of 2017, the last time being on
October 18, 2019 at approximately 2:40 in the afternoon."
Smith@36 - PressTV: "..With the plane's IFF transponder switched off,..."
Civilian aircraft have ATC SSR radar transponders, not military IFF
transponders.
IFF aircraft interrogations are ALWAYS military only and ALWAYS encrypted. Their only job,
if used by the TOR, is to confirm that a radar target was an Iranian military aircraft. PS752
1) couldn't understand encrypted TOR IFF interrogations, 2) wouldn't be able to provide
encrypted replies to any TOR IFF interrogations, and 3) would still be considered "not an
Iranian military aircraft" by the TOR. PS752's transponder would need a military IFF
encoder/decoder which it does not have.
Likewise, TORs and their acquisition radars DO NOT have civilian ATC SSR radar
capabilities to identify civilian aircraft. They do NOT interrogate civilian aircraft for ID,
altitude, GPS or any other information, nor do they listen for civilian aircraft ADS-B
broadcasts which also provide that information.
Surveillance radars higher up in the air defense network may have civilian aircraft ID
capability and can assign appropriate IDs to radar targets BEFORE they appear on the TORs
radar screen, but that requires a good data link to the network. That encrypted data link
(also used for voice communications) was down at the time, and any ID information that may
have been assigned by higher layers of the Iranian AD network wouldn't have appeared on the
TOR or been considered by its classification and targeting software.
Sorry - I don't know how else to explain this. PressTV doesn't understand the distinction,
nor does it understand the TORs capabilities.
Best explanation I've seen yet of the 752 jet takedown. It was a false flag attack by the US
or its allies intended to frame Iran. The Iranian missile hit second after the plane had
already been hit by the Stinger and was several seconds from crashing anyway. The rich kids
of Tehran were in the housing complex at 6 AM to film the Stinger shootdown by their
terrorist buddies. They have properly been arrested. There have been other arrests too. I
wonder what they will come up with.
This makes more sense than any other theory I have seen.
Mike Javaras @82: The Iranian missile hit second after the plane had already been hit by
the Stinger ...
MANPADs like Stingers are heat-seeking. They go after ENGINES. On a big plane like PS732,
a MANPADs is unlikely to have stopped the transponder and communications.
Philip Giraldi points a finger at US/Israeli Electronic Warfare:
Giraldi thinks the transponder was hacked. But the article he cites also talks about a device
on board that would've allowed for EW. And he notes that Israel probably ALSO has the
capability to have been responsible for the EW and/or device on board.
MOSCOW – Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated there is unverified information
that at least six American F-35 jets were in the Iranian border area at the time when Tehran
accidentally downed Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 last week.
Philip Giraldi, a former counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer of
the CIA, penned a piece in the
American Herald Tribune speculating that the U.S. launched several cyber-attacks, one on an
Iranian missile defense system, and another on the transponder of the doomed Ukrainian
plane.
Giraldi explains the Iranian missile operator experienced extreme "jamming" and Ukraine
International Airlines Flight 752's transponder was switched off several minutes before the two
Russian made Tor missiles were launched.
"The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator
and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was
hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming
American cruise missiles, then fired," he said.
Giraldi said the Tor missile system used by Iran is vulnerable to being hacked or "spoofed,"
and at the same moment, Flight 752's transponder was taken offline "to create an aviation
accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government."
The Pentagon has reportedly developed technologies that can trick enemy radars with false
and deceptively moving targets, he said.
"The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a
civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location.
The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter
signals relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel
presumably has the same ability," Giraldi said.
Iran made the
claim Wednesday that "enemy sabotage" cannot be ruled out in the downing of the plane.
Iranian Brigadier General Ali Abdollahi suggested the U.S. hacked missile defense systems to
make it appear Flight 752 was an incoming missile.
Iranian President Hassan Rouhani also accused the U.S. of being responsible for the downing
of the plane, saying that:
"The root of all sorrows goes back to America... this cannot be a reason for us not to
look into all the root causes."
He added that:
"One cannot believe that a passenger plane is struck near an international airport while
flying in a [commercial] flight channel," after previously saying that IRGC commanders were
not the only ones involved in the plane downing, noting that "There were others, too."
The Iranian parliament also stated that "we are in powerful confrontation with the criminal
U.S. and do not allow a mistake to pave the ground for misusing the issue by the enemies."
Giraldi concludes by saying electronic warfare by the U.S. to bring down a civilian jet and
blame it on Iran "suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event" to create a false flag
for the next world war.
Of course, Iran and the pilot of the plane had nothing to gain and everything to lose by
turning off the transponders, which makes it more than likely a third party was involved in
the downing of the plane. You don't need to be a genius to figure out who stood to gain by
killing all those civilians. Giving the black box to Ukraine, America's puppet state, was
probably a mistake.
Interesting - I have harbored the same opinion after seeing the nationalities of the
passengers and reviewing the 2 missile video. In fact, I believe that the plane was rigged
with a unit to turn off both the transponder and the communication system, and then to
trigger an explosive in the wing tank after missile launch (triggering mechanisms likely
externally enabled). Let's look at this:
1. Nationalities - could not find references to too many American citizens, but lot's of
Canadians; ie: no real exposure at home and this gives Trudeau (Trudope..) a headache to deal
with that brings him closer to the Neocon camp - a little payback for the hot mike moment at
the G7.
2. Iranians may be poorly trained and, at that moment, itchy fingered, but planes were
coming and going from that airport all day. What made this one special - no transponder
signal. Jamming is too easy to spot; it is much easier to install a remote kill switch on the
plane in Ukraine (you know, where the US has lot's of ground assets with access to sensitive
facilities like airports) and then turn off the transponder after leaving the Tehran
airport.
3. Black box shows that there were no communications from the plane to the airport
controllers or anyone else; yet, the crew was over staffed with competent flight crew. Note
the time between when the first missile detonates and when the fire is seen on the wing of
the plane; there is plenty of time for a competent aircrew to call off the attack, yet there
was only radio silence. Somebody also killed the radios, which means this was planned.
3. The Tor system is not that great. Note that they fired one missile, it detonated, and
there was no obvious visible effect on the plane. It was at that point that a second missile
was fired; again it detonated and again there was no obvious visible effect on the plane.
From the video, it appears that while the missiles may have caused damage, they do not appear
to have been catastrophic.
4. Because of point 3 above, it appears that the planners had a fail safe; that being an
explosive in the right wing (likely in the fuel tank as that is reasonably easy to insert),
and that was detonated several seconds after the second missile did not drop the plane, and
there was no third missile being launched at the airplane (perhaps the missile ground crew
figured out something was wrong because the target was not going evasive, or maybe they had
nothing else launch ready - unknown at this time). This would have had to have been detonated
remotely (any stealthy drones hiding in that night sky??).
5. Wing burn - This sequence of events would explain the videos of the attack; I have not
seen any other explanation for why the wing waited so long to suddenly erupt in flames (the
plane just took off - lots of fuel, yet the flight was not that long, so there were plenty of
fumes as well for hot shrapnel to ignite) after the second missile detonation. This just does
not make sense on a paper thin civilian target. Also, it does not appear (from the flame
morphology) that hot jet exhaust subsequently ignited leaking fuel (which could possibly
explain the delay between the second missile detonation and the appearance of the
fireball).
Finally, why did they do this? I doubt that it was to provoke war; likely it was to keep
the Iranians from hitting any further US targets by embarrassing the them internationally,
and at the same time setting Ukraine, their regional (and after the last election less than
completely compliant) client state against Iran while at the same time getting Canada in line
with US policy and giving its "true bearded dope" of a Prime Minister a black eye.
Another interesting note; the US has in depth penetration of both Canadian and Ukrainian
institutions, which is important as these two countries have the greatest claim to being an
integral part of the investigation, which means that by proxy the US has a ringside seat to
manage the obscuring of any unhelpful facts that may be uncovered. This is the mistake they
made with MH17, in that many of the passengers were Dutch, and thus the Dutch took the
investigative lead. Getting that report properly obscured cost them a lot of gold, and they
were not going to make the same mistake twice.
Any of these issues, taken individually, can be dismissed; however, taken together, the
package is just too sweet - that many things coming together "coincidentally" is beyond any
laws of probability that I have come across.
I suspect every member of the armed forces in Iran has been drilled with the knowledge the
USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian passenger jet that supposedly had its transponder turned
off.
"It is sad that this incident happened and that 176 lost their life. But if one wants to
find a person guilty for it one must look for the person who caused the whole situation. That
person is not the lowly sergeant who pressed the button. That person is U.S. President Donald
Trump."
They admitted to shooting it down, the reasons are still unclear and the fact that this
plane was shot down while the country itself was expecting an attack from the US or Israel
only lends to speculation that there was more involved with this accident. Of course, your
mind is made up that the evil Iranians killed a bunch of people because they are moral
degenerates as the US and Israhell are forever seated on moral high ground.
"... When framed across the other unknown technologies that are powering the complex avionics on the Boeing 737-800, the US-China trade war and why so many economies are investing big monies in building their own GNSS, there is just a remote possibility that something sinister may be at play. ..."
"... When we examine the final seconds of the Ukrainian PS752 based on known data at this stage of the investigation, it resembles the final seconds of MH370, just before it disappeared from the radar and remains unaccounted for to this day. Could it be just another aviation coincidence? ..."
As more data are being released, there are already some glaring discrepancies that baffle
even aviation experts. When the doomed Ukrainian airliner, Flight PS752, switched from Tehran
Iman Khomeini International Airport to Mehrabad air traffic control at 2,400 meters, at a
position about 20 kilometers from the airport, it lost contact, just minutes before it was shot
down. Flight-path records show that the aircraft was making a turn back in the direction of the
airport.
Concurrently as this was taking place, the Iranians were firing missiles at Iraqi bases that
house US forces in retaliation for the killing of their general.
If the US has the intelligence to pinpoint with such accuracy what was happening to PS752
while its troops were being fired upon, it raises the question as to whether the US has managed
to circumvent the Iranians' GPS used for the rocket attacks on their troops and inadvertently
set the missiles on a wrong course.
While the Iranians may have the capability to jam or spoof territorial intrusions like in
2011, when they managed to override an American RQ-170 stealth drone and landed it on their
territory, it does not have the capability to shield its GPS fully from the US.
Even the Israelis, known for their military strength, do not have the capability to shield
their GPS fully from foreign interference. Last June, the Israel Defense Forces suffered such a
disruption. They attributed it to the Russians using a combination of jamming and spoofing
signal. Known as "smart jamming," this is used to deter drones and incursion risks over very
specific airspace. This disruption was detected by the GRID (GNSS Radio Frequency Interference
Detection) receiver on the International Space Station owned by the Naval Research Lab, Cornell
University, the University of Texas and Aerospace Corp.
Such jamming and spoofing can create hazards for civilian and commercial navigation. It can
also block military-grade equipment, as shown by the Russians in 2018 when they disrupted US
drones operating in Syria to gather intelligence.
Should the Iranians' GPS be compromised by the US, all its rocket launches will be misguided
by false data. Whether the US could deploy such a ruthless tactic against the Iranians begs
greater scrutiny by the international community, as this unfortunate incident has just too many
coincidences.
When framed across the other unknown technologies that are powering the complex avionics on
the Boeing 737-800, the US-China trade war and why so many economies are investing big monies
in building their own GNSS, there is just a remote possibility that something sinister may be
at play.
When we examine the final seconds of the Ukrainian PS752 based on known data at this stage
of the investigation, it resembles the final seconds of MH370, just before it disappeared from
the radar and remains unaccounted for to this day. Could it be just another aviation
coincidence?
... ... ...
Joseph Nathan has been the principal consultant with several consultancy agencies for 28 years in Singapore. For
Malaysia and Indonesia, he undertakes projects via JN Advisory (M) Sdn Bhd, covering real estate and infrastructure, aviation,
project and debt financing, and general business review (non-manufacturing). He holds an MBA from Macquarie Graduate School of
Management, Australia.
@JimDandy Hpw did the instruction to "Fly direct" prove fatal to MH 17
MUMBAI: The ministry of civil aviation's claim that there was no Air India flight near the
ill-fated Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 when it was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday appears
misleading.
An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away
from the Malaysian aircraft,
Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the
controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits
an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a
zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. "Direct
routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal," said
an airline source.
1 Was India pressurized to deny the close proximity and 2 was it under pressure to deny
that it heard the controller giving the instruction to MH 17????
What seems to have been a case of bad judgments and human error does, however, include some
elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced
considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched
off and stopped transmitting
several minutes before the missiles were launched .
There were also problems with
the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.
The electronic jamming coming from an unknown source meant that the air defense system was
placed on manual operation, relying on human intervention to launch. The human role meant that
an operator had to make a quick judgment in a pressure situation in which he had only moments
to react. The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the
operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that
it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming
American cruise missiles, then fired.
The two missiles that brought the plane down came from a Russian-made system designated
SA-15 by NATO and called Tor by the Russians. Its eight missiles are normally mounted on a
tracked vehicle. The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an
independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system
functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents. Given
what happened on that morning in Tehran, it is plausible to assume that something or someone
deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the
airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be
attributed to the Iranian government.
The SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be
hacked or "spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take
control. The United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can
fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also
means fooling the operator. The Guardian has also
reported independently how the United States military has long been developing systems that
can from a distance alter the electronics and targeting of Iran's available missiles.
The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a
civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location.
The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter signals
relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel presumably has
the same ability. Joe Quinn at Sott.net
also notes an interested back story to those photos
and video footage that have appeared in the New York Times and elsewhere showing the
Iranian missile launch, the impact with the plane and the remains after the crash, to include
the missile remains. They appeared on January 9 th , in an Instagram account called
' Rich Kids of
Tehran '. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in "a low-income housing estate on
the city's outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8 th
with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a
Ukrainian passenger plane ?"
Put together the Rich Kids and the possibility of electronic warfare and it all suggests a
premeditated and carefully planned event of which
the Soleimani assassination was only a part. There have been riots in Iran subsequent to
the shooting down of the plane, blaming the government for its ineptitude. Some of the people
in the street are clearly calling for the goal long sought by the United States and Israel,
i.e. "regime change." If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing
of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another
unprincipled actor with blood on its hands. There is much still to explain about the downing of
Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752.
Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National
Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation (Federal ID Number #52-1739023) that
seeks a more interests-based U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.
Given this news, any impartial observer would at least entertain the possibility of
its truth, particularly given the lengthy track record of the United States/Israel in
perpetrating such crimes.
It's a good litmus test for determining where one's sentiment lies. Even "alternative
media" aren't likely to touch this story.
The Iranian Ambassador to Britain, Hamid Baeidinejad said in an interview on the UK Channel 4
news hours ago that although Iran had needed time to determine what had happened, it had now
accepted responsibility, would pay compensation, and the people who fired on the jet will be
put on trial.
If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani,
is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another
unprincipled actor with blood on its hands.
Both Trump and the Iranian regime have good domestic disquiet reason to rethink the
confrontational policy each are pursuing. Iran and the US could get closer over this. I think
the predictable unpredictability of assassination and catastrophic loss of life events
makes false flagging them of dubious value.
Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was
inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it
so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the
money was the chips, that's all.
(Sutton W, Linn E: Where the Money Was: The Memoirs of a Bank Robber. Viking Press
(1976), p. 160)
I suppose it is possible there are people who get addicted to false flagging others'
deaths. If half of what is said in this site is true, Mossad really needs to set up a 12 step
program.
" .the big question which many people on social media are asking is: why was this
"videographer" standing in a derelict industrial area outside Tehran at around six o'clock in
the morning with a mobile phone camera training on a fixed angle to the darkened sky? The
airliner is barely visible, yet the sky-watching person has the camera pointed and ready to
film a most dramatic event, seconds before it happened. That strongly suggests,
foreknowledge."
The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the
planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the
missiles were launched.
I vaguely recall reports of transponder issues arising during the shootdown of
MH-17.
Civilian passenger flights were still departing and arriving in Tehran, almost certainly
an error in judgment on the part of the airport authorities. Inexplicably, civilian
aircraft continued to take off and land even after Flight 752 was shot down.
The Iranian government is blameworthy for keeping planes in the air either because of
diabolical reasons (delays a counter attack) or economic (nearly $1 billion a year in
overflight fees).
However, the pilots of the airliners that took over during the morning between the first
missile hitting Iraq and the downing of the Ukrainian airliner were dumb and
irresponsible.
The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent
launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system
functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent
accidents.
Clearly you have no clue how an IFF operates and that no commercial airliner even has an
IFF on board. Every commercial aircraft looks like the enemy to this SAM
operator.
Also, you need to explain how spoofing a RADAR which creates a false track would cause the
shoot down. The missile would simply target the false track instead of the real aircraft.
You also need to explain how an old SAM missile site can be hacked or spoofed to shoot
down a civilian airliner. Especially this old one which has no Mode-S or ADS-B capability and
only radio communication capability.
As Mark Twain said, it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an
idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Even if this was a clear mistake on Iran's part, the US and Israel still have blood on their
hands for the downing of this plane. The missiles were launched in response to a targeted
killing of an Iranian general. If that didn't happen, these missiles never would've been
launched.
Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost.
I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani
to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.
@Anon Before calling someone an idiot it is better to follow Mark Twain's advice
yourself. A more careful reading reveals no claim that IFF was onstalled on the airliner. The
commenter does speculate that possible spoofing involved a false attribution of a real
airliner not the creation of a false airliner and radar track. Perhaps you are familiar with
"old" electronic countermeasures and not with the "new", "top secret" and spiffy versions
hinted at by the U.S. military?
@Quartermaster /An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the
claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground
when it quit./
As it climbed and reached 4,600ft above ground level, the plane's transponder suddenly
stopped working at about 6.14am, 2 minutes or so after take off . [emphasis
added]
The plane was already airborne when the transponder stopped working.
@Onlooker Less than twenty replies into the thread and we've already got two individuals
attempting to distort the facts. Here's the key link that readers should visit:
The airliner had not been in the air long at all when it was shot down. An Airliner can
not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting
"several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit.
The flight departed Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airport at 02:42 UTC ( 06:12
local time ) and the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network at 02:44
UTC( 06:14 local time) . According to the report the aircraft climbed to 8000 feet and
turned right back toward the airport and crashed at 02:48 UTC ( 06:18 local time ) --
four minutes after the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network. –
Source
Flight Radar 24
Mr. Giraldi's original claim:
The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the
planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the
missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the
air defense command, which may have been related.
4 minutes after the transponders were switches off, the plane crashed .
Without [proper] access to the FDR and CVR, it's impossible to determine when the plane
was hit and how long it took to crash, exactly.
The plane was only flying at 8,000 feet [its normal {flight} ceiling is 30,000 feet and
above], so it's speed relatively low [cruise speed is between about 400 and 500 knots (460
– 575 mph / 740 – 930 kph), but the Ukrainian plane was still climbing] and the
fall back to Earth relatively quick.
On the clip where the plane is on fire and finally crashes, the downward angle looked to
be about 25 to 30 %, which is relatively steep. Time of downfall can be calculated when the
relative data is available.
Therefore, Mr Giraldi's claim " several minutes before the missiles were launched "
is technically correct , until proven wrong by data from the FDR and CVR,
The Tor system is too primitive to be hacked. It is a stand alone, autonomous and mostly
analog system. The radar signals it generates are shown on analog tube-screens.
Interesting theory by P. Giraldi. However, I am very surprised that Israel/Mossad role in
these acts of terrorism never mentioned. We know that Trump is a Zionist servant and acts on
instructions from his jewish fananciers. We know, Trump is incapable of serious thinking.
The Iranians took the hit because their missiles took out the airliner. And then, they could
stop the Western media crying for the next 6 mos. and this gave them time to bring in other
neutral investigators to look at the evidence and come up with logical scenarios. There is a
reason the black boxes weren't given to any one else to own – because they still
remember the scam investigation of MH 17. I f lew planes for over 20 yrs – Every
controlled/radared airport would ask me to turn on my transponder if it wasn't on –
Everyone of them. This plane not only came from Ukraine but was an easy target for a hack
from any of the big Intel countries. The BIG STORY here is that most every plane flying today
– can have the same type consequences!!! because of the Western War Machine.
Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives
lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured
Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.
Trudeau showed some real courage criticizing Trump and his terrible decisions.
More Western allies have to stand up to the Zionist stooge and call him out on his
treachery and stupidity.
@bobhammer Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Turn off Fox News now.
We are not always the good guys and we are up to our necks in deceit, plunder, and evil.
Our actions have harmed millions of people around the world and it has to stop.
It is time for more self-reflection as individuals and as a nation; and it is long past
time for us to be comfortable with lies.
@bobhammer The "uninterruptible" autopilot can be activated – either by pilots or
by on-board sensors, or by radio or satellite link<= connected to controls at the remote
end. Government agencies, quasi government agencies, military brats and probably the entire
group of privately operated NGOs and private party mobsters (bankers, corporations and
private military armies and privateers) at the remote end, can take over control of in-flight
Aircraft, and fly it, land it, take it off, whatever, even if the pilot sitting in the
cockpit objects. and does all he can to retrieve control from the remote operator.
Several comments report says interrupt able remote control, allows, persons on the ground,
to take from the pilot in a flying airplane, control of the airplane the pilot is suppose to
be flying, in situations for example when terrorist are in the cockpit. I have not read the
manufacture's literature nor do I have personal knowledge abut the equipment list of any of
these aircraft, the list suggest they are all aircraft, not only equipped with the UAP but
that they were all aircraft made by the same manufacturer. I am merely repeating what was on
stated as fact on a website I visited.
Many are looking for proof that remotely equipped uninterruptible autopilots are being
used as Remote Control weaponized drones . Imagine an pilot, located on the ground in
London or somewhere parks his /her remote ground to air control vehicle and takes over flight
control including turns on/off the transponder [<=which tells everyone where the plane is
during its flight] on a plane that is flying, landing or taking off from say the Tehran
airport in Iran?
My personal experience is that it generally takes less than 2 minutes after a transponder
is turned off during a planes flight, before fighter jets arrive to escort the transponder
disabled plane; so the whole system that protects civilian aircraft, and allows the military
to know the aircraft is civilian, is dependent on the Transponder, installed in the airplane,
to continuously squawk during flight, its exact position so that everyone can identify the
flight, and track the aircraft during its flight. Every land based control tower, ATC control
system center and military installation depends on that airborne squawking transponder to
track the en-route progress of commercial and private aircraft flights from take off to
landing.
Another comment made on that list referred to above claimed Uninterruptible Auto Pilot
[UAP] equipped aircraft have been involved in unexplained flight accident/disappearance
events (I have no personal knowledge about the equipment in these aircraft, I just repeated
here what someone else said elsewhere, please verify these claims yourself or provide
verification ) .
(4 @911) <=UAP allows pilot-less flights, no pilot need board the plane for its
flight.
(PS752) (transponder turned off, destroyed by confused ground defense crews)
MH370 (vanished into thin air)
MH17 (had its flight path altered.)
Eyes focus on Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (UAP) .. to explain recent Tehran 160 person
disaster?
This is really something to think about? Always the question has been how did four
military officers from Iran, trained a few weeks in Florida to fly jets, manage to get
through four differently located pilot screening TSA gates to fly the aircraft and passenger
into the 9/11 events. Conspiracy theories suggest since no pilot is needed, there were no
pilots for TSA to screening. Remote control on the ground flew the aircraft to their
destinations.
Just about says it all doesn't it? What kind of people are we dealing with here? Of course
only the morons out there are still being fooled by these kind of false flags. Even in the
year 2020 these same morons still believe ZOG's 9-11 fairy tale and label any other theory as
a "conspiracy." Speaking of conspiracies the biggest idiots out there, even bigger than the
ones who believe ZOG's narrative or those type who believe the total wacktard stuff put out
by ZIO controlled disinfo puppets like Alex Jones.
Ukrainian commercial airline? What other nation besides Iran does ZOG have it in for? Is
it Russia?
War by deception? HARDLY to anyone with two brain cells left. These fools have been caught
before, they aren't that clever. What they are is protected by a syndicate of bought and paid
for politicians. They were caught attacking the USS Liberty, they were caught bombing
American and British installations in Egypt, the Rosenbergs and Pollard were nailed, but of
course despite all of this, America and her leaders continued the value Israel as a friend
and an ally. With a friend like Israel, who needs enemies. Then of course we have the story
of our 5 little dancing Israelis apprehended in NYC after being observed dancing and
celebrating the WTC towers collapsing. So you mean a group of Israelis from Israel, nation
that is ALLEGEDLY "friends" with America and America think it is hilarious and worth
celebrating when America is attacked and thousands are burned alive or jump to their death
from hundreds of feet above the street?? Of course "our" media quickly exonerated the
celebrating Israelis and buried that story faster than your average house cat buries his own
turds.
ZOG really thinks the average American has the IQ of a monkey. Even after the WMD caca
they still think you people will believe anything they tell you to believe. The sad part is
they are right about that with the majority of the population.
Identification, friend or foe (IFF) is a radar-based identification system designed for
command and control. It uses a transponder that listens for an interrogation signal and then
sends a response that identifies the broadcaster. It enables military and civilian air
traffic control interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly
and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator. IFF may be used by both
military and civilian aircraft.
If such a capability exists would the US reveal and use it in such a minor circumstance.
Occam's razor suggests this was just another case of 'better safe than sorry' during a time
of military tensions. Not a whole lot different than the Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian
airliner that came too close during a military confrontation in the Gulf.
I would hate to know how many 'friendly' aircraft were shot down by over zealous AAA
gunners in WW2 but it wasn't just a handful.
Anybody who thinks that US-Israel wouldn't have been capable of staging such a horrific event
as the shooting down of the airliner by Iran hasn't been following Whitney Webb's continuing
articles which are available right here on UNZ. Israel seems to have insinuated itself into
about every computer security program worldwide.
Webb's article mentions large scale defense contractor Dell Computer's close connection to
the Israeli government. Dell computer head Michael Dell has personally made large
contributions to that curious "charity" called The Friends of The Israeli Defense Forces as
has Larry Ellison, head or Oracle Software. Interestingly enough, neither of them have made
correspondingly large contributions to American veterans however.
Michael Dell is probably one of the biggest (or the biggest) single contributors to the
Republicans from Texas, home of Dell computer. Larry Ellison (also a large government
computer contractor) is also one of the Republican Party's biggest contributors.
Ellison's $5.5 million dollar contribution to the Republican is dwarfed however, by his
recent contributions to The Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces which seem to total (as of
today) $31 million (or more).
Are both men and their companies security risks? Is there any doubt of this or are
contribution to charity connected to a foreign army now simply to be considered as being
benign and innocent.
Identification, friend or foe (IFF) is a radar-based identification system designed for
command and control. It uses a transponder that listens for an interrogation signal and
then sends a response that identifies the broadcaster. It enables military and civilian
air traffic control interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as
friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator. IFF may be used by
both military and civilian aircraft.
Your Wikipedia snippet is absolutely incorrect . IFF is only used for Military
Aircraft. If you want to prove me wrong:
Provide a link to any civilian transponder with IFF capability
Provide a link to any civilian aircraft Minimum Equipment List
that requires an IFF
Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian airliner that came too close during a military
confrontation in the Gulf.
Doesn't it rile you, as a U.S. veteran, that American soldiers are dying in treasonous
service to an enemy nation?
Doesn't it bother you in the least, that Americans are on the hook for untold trillions of
dollars, so they can slaughter innocent people, thousands of miles away, whose only "crime"
is that a certain shitty little country, wants to see them all sent reeling into the stone
age, (which is exactly what they want for you too).
Have y0u ever bothered to notice just exactly whom it is that is driving all the
liberal-progressive shit we all see daily, with the ubiquitous homomania and Hollywood sewage
force-injected into America's culture?
I see you occasionally speak against that stuff, but then when it comes to American
soldiers dying on behalf of those rats, there you are, defending the narrative of Iran as bad
guys.
How many Iranians do you see pumping Hollywood sewage into America's veins?
How many Iranians do you see on Capital Hill, demanding Trump and all his Deplorables are
irredeemably racists? And need to have their guns taken away?
How many Iranians do you see at Goldman Sachs, (and the other 'Too big to fail Banksters)
looting the country dry?
How many Iranians do you see in our universities, force-feeding America's youth the
progressive-liberal monkey shit, they're paying to consume daily?
You'd have to be very myopic not to notice who it is behind America's depraved descent
into cultural and spiritual guano. (not to mention the Eternal Wars, that only an imbecile
could pretend not to notice ((who)) are behind them).
And I have a clue for you, it isn't the Iranians. In fact, they had a nice good taste of
((Western)) culture under the Shah, and they decided they'd rather not see their women whored
out, and their children spiritually dead husks.
It'd be good if people could lift the veils they willfully allow to cover their own eyes,
in some kind of misguided machismo about how tough "our" military are, as they're killing and
dying on behalf of their worst enemy.
@JimDandy Hpw did the instruction to "Fly direct" prove fatal to MH 17
MUMBAI: The ministry of civil aviation's claim that there was no Air India flight near the
ill-fated Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 when it was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday appears
misleading.
An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away
from the Malaysian aircraft,
Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the
controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits
an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a
zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. "Direct
routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal," said
an airline source.
1 Was India pressurized to deny the close proximity and 2 was it under pressure to deny
that it heard the controller giving the instruction to MH 17????
FAA regulations require that all aircraft, military or civilian, flying at an altitude
of 10,000 feet or higher in U.S. controlled airspace, must be equipped with an operating
IFF transponder system capable of automatic altitude reporting (this is the reason that two
of the modes are used by both military and civilian aircraft).
So, did the Ukrainian plane have an IFF transponder or not? Ref?
what Giraldi has published doesn't even rise to the level of the most idiotic conspiracy
theory one can concoct.
It happened only a few months ago that an Israeli jet violated Syria's airspace and
deliberately sheltered behind a Russian Iliouchine IL-20 to get it shot down by Syrian
air defence.
It was so very clearly and simply explained by the Russian Chief of Staff than any
imbecile could understand it; the idiot is definitely you.
A civilian transponder will respond to almost any inquiry (or even a non-coded radar
pulse):
-- Standard civilian transponder code = USA military Mode 3.
-- Standard civilian transponder altitude reporting = USA military Mode C.
To reduce detectability in combat, the pilot can change the setting on a Military IFF
system to only squawk when a correctly coded interrogation signal is recieved.
Transponders are turned on and off with switches in the cockpit. Is Giraldi suggesting that
this transponder was equipped to be controlled from outside? Source of assertion that
transponder was turned off? Can he name any commercial transponder with this feature? Does he
know anythng about elctroic warfare? This sounds like the birthing of a conspiracy theory.
@DaveE The hilarious thing in Britain is that many people on the comments sections of MSM
will talk about 'Asian' or more specifically 'Muslim' child rape gangs, because these gangs
were heavily Muslim they can be referred to using the adjective 'Muslim'.
But when you point out that the ones beating the drums for war in Iran and who
successfully plunged America and UK into a long a protracted war in the Middle East are
mostly Jewish, as evidenced by this article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz
they start getting all pissy, because of the Holocaust legend, Jews are now above scrutiny
and Jewish power cannot be talked about. It is the slipperly slope fallacy, what is merely
being advocated for here is not to trust a single thing that comes out of the mouth of a Jew
regarding the Middle East as there is a clear conflict of interest, not genocide.
I also suspect that peoples understandable antagonism towards Muslims has somehow made
them more sympathetic to Israel. Tommy Robinson is for example funded by rich Jews like Ezra
Levant of Rebel Media and Robert J. Shillman – who sits on the board of Friends of
Israel Defence Forces – shills for Israel. Now the Western goyim start frothing at
the mouth when they hear Muslim and so think countries like Iran are evil and out to destory
the West, a laughable claim.
You don't have to apologise. Christian Zionists are no Christians; they are uncultured,
criminal country-bumpkins utilised by their Zionist handlers to justify the destruction of
the twice-millenary Christian Arab community.
Here is what real Christians think:
Mor Maurice Amsih, Syrian Orthodox Bishop of Euphrates, demonstrating against the murder of
General Soleimani, calling Soleimani and his companions " martyrs " who are now
" Saints in the Heavenly Kingdom" for their blood shed freeing the Syrian
people from Zio-sponsored terrorists. [@ 0:25]
The Boeing jet broadcast the usual civil ADS-B signal but one has to expect that a
U.S. cruise missile can and would do the same.
although 'one can expect ' seems like one hell of an assumption.
This is absolutely irrelevant since the Iranian SAM missile launcher is so old it
can not even detect and decode ADS-B signals. Note that the requirement for ADS-B transponders
only came into effect this year .
By the account of Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hajizadeh:
1. Prior to the downing of the aircraft, Americans had threatened to hit 52 sites in
Iran.
2. These threats placed Iran's air defense systems on the highest alert level.
3. There were reports that cruise missles had been fired at Iran.
4. In spite of IRGC requests that airspace be cleared of commercial flights, those requests
were not met.
5. The air defense unit recognized Flight 752 as a cruise missle from a distance of 19
kilometers, but is still required to get approval to fire upon it.
6. When the operator attempts to get approval, he can not do so due to "disruption" of his
communication system.
7. The operator is forced to make an independent decision in a 10 second window of time and
fires upon the plane.
1. the SA-15 system has an IFF interrogator built into its radar system,
2. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated
prior to take off, and
3. it is possible for a plane to take off without an IFF transponder operating.
4. In spite of all this, the flight's recording on FLIGHTRADAR24.COM , proves that the transponder was on and
working.
5. Even if there was no IFF signal, a SA-15/TOR M-1 operator could still determine the
location, bearing, speed and size of the potential target.
6. The SA-15 also has an automatic all weather day/night NV/IR Electro Optical Targeting
System (EOTS) used for target engagement and fire control by which the plane would have been
easily identified.
7. Flight 752 should have been identifiable as a commercial airliner by its external lights
alone.
From this information, he concludes that either there are traitors within Iran seeking to
facilitate regime change or that the downing of Flight 752 was a false flag operation
perpetrated by the usual suspects.
I'd like to see more information about this topic from those qualified to speak about
it.
2. These threats placed Iran's air defense systems on the highest alert level
7. The operator is forced to make an independent decision in a 10 second window of time and
fires upon the plane.
How long were the operators on alert? Tension and sleep deprivation are a bad mix. This
looks like the crew on the ground had seconds to make a decision, and in the rush got it
wrong.
I'm not sure how anyone on the outside could tell if the operator made the launch by
mistake or from ill intent. No doubt the crew will be given the Richard Jewell treatment in
an attempt to deflect blame from the religious hierarchy.
1. the SA-15 system has an IFF interrogator built into its radar system,
Correct
2. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and
activated prior to take off, and
Incorrect The Boeing 737 aircrfat has two ATC Transponders only one of which is
activated prior to takeoff. The second ATC transponder is only activated if the first one
fails. An ATC Transponder is NOT an IFF transponder.
3. it is possible for a plane to take off without an IFF transponder operating.
Incorrect . A functioning ATC transponder is part the Boeing 737 Minimum Equipment
List which is available here . The only way the Ukraine Air crew could have gotten
around this requirement was to get prior permission from the Iranian Civil Aviation Authority
and EVERY other country's Cicil Aviation Authority in its flight path which I can guarantee
you would not be forthcoming.
5. Even if there was no IFF signal, a SA-15/TOR M-1 operator could still determine the
location, bearing, speed and size of the potential target.
Incorrect The operator could determine range, range rate. and bearing if the
transponder was not function.
6. The SA-15 also has an automatic all weather day/night NV/IR Electro Optical
Targeting System (EOTS) used for target engagement and fire control by which the plane
would have been easily identified.
The plane was at least 1.5 miles away (8000 ft altitude). You go get yourself a pair of
Night Vision/Infra Red scopes and see how well you do identifying different aircraft from
that distance
@Ron Unz One good article to show people in relation to the Israel Lobby's influence on
America's decision to go to war in Iraq is an article in Israeli newspaper Haaretz titled
White Man's Burden which carries the following subheading;
The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish,
who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history. Two of them, journalists
William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer, say it's possible. But another journalist, Thomas
Friedman (not part of the group), is skeptical.
This comes from a reputable newspaper from Israel so cannot be dismissed as the ravings of
some neo-Nazis. I have found this to have the most success in getting people online to think
about the Iraq War more, it is impossible for detractors to label a link to an Israeli
newspaper article as "anti-Semitic" without looking absurd.
I would find the UN's review kind of hard to recommend to people in real life simple
because of the provocative nature of the stories it runs. The American Pravda series
is of course very informative but the articles require quite a bit of time to read through
and check the hyperlinks within the article itself. Without sounding like someone with a
superiority complex, most people cannot read this much information and grasp it. Many will
not touch articles relating to Holocaust Denial or race.
But anyway, you sir are doing great work with the maintenance and story selection on this
website and I wish you the best of luck in the future. It certainly has armed me with lots of
information that I can use to counter mainstream narratives in a whole host of issues.
Although my efforts in real life have not been very successful, I do seem to be getting some
success in my cyber-activism on mainstream news websites, where I am able to provide a clear
and cogent narrative with links to reputable websites and not come across as a nutjob who
raves about da jooz .
@Anon Sharpen your reading skills. Civilian aircraft have different frequency
transponders than military aircraft. Flight plans are filed, and the transponder signals
correspond to filed flight plans. When attacking, military craft turn off their transponders.
No transponder signal = no corresponding flight plan = unfriendly aircraft.
There is no need to "spoof" anything, once the transponder stops signalling. That aside, I
found it curious that this particular airplane was on its first flight after major
maintenance. Who knows what was done in servicing. If the computer in the car you drive can
be hijacked to cause sudden acceleration or brake failurs, an airplane's certainly can.
Abel Danger went into quite a discussion of this during the 9/11 event that had 2 planes
crashing into the towers. I can't find it on youtube any longer. A lot of their YTubes have
been deleted.
I saw in the Jan. 15 @2130 Teheran Times that, "TEHRAN – A possible disruption in
Iran's radar network by the U.S. may have caused the operator mistake the Ukrainian
passenger plan for an incoming American cruise missile, at top Iranian military official
said late on Tuesday."
A Canadian here... The yappy-lapdog Canadian gov't is "demanding" a whole lot of control
over the investigation, yet in the same breath demands "impartial" analysis and prosecution
of the perps... by definition, the Cdn gov't is not impartial, it is a vassal
administration of the US/ZATO/5Eyes MIC.
More importantly, will the black box show what happened regarding reports that the
plane's transponder had been shut off shortly after take-off and before the missiles were
launched. It is known from the MH370 investigation that Boeing planes automatically report
back to Boeing head office with various bits of telemetry. Is it such a stretch that Boeing
has various "backdoors" in the 737 flight computers which could allow the transponders to
be shut off remotely? The CIA/Mossad surely would know about such backdoors, being Boeing
is part and parcel of the US MIC.
The Canadian rabid response smacks of trying to hide or get ahead of any proof of the
above.
Looking at all the stories coming out, the deep state is getting pretty serious about
getting rid of Trump.
What if they get Biden as the democratic nominee too and we have a Pence/Biden matchup?
Top that with everything the Fed is doing to keep the market bubble from bursting and it
raises interesting possibilities.
Trump laughing it up from the sidelines, for one thing.
This Nariman Gharib or his commanders are straightout stupid. With this behaviour they
confirm the suspicion that the incident was staged. While proof of electronic warfare to
create the havoc may never come or is impossible to obtain the main weakness of the effort
is the fact that filming the event in the middle of the night from a rooftop is explainable
only if the camera guy has known what would happen where. - Staged to overshadow the
impressive triumph the Iranians had with the attack on the Iraqi US base.
What seems to have been a case of bad judgments and human error does, however, include some
elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced
considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched
off and stopped transmitting
several minutes before the missiles were launched .
There were also problems with
the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.
The electronic jamming coming from an unknown source meant that the air defense system was
placed on manual operation, relying on human intervention to launch. The human role meant that
an operator had to make a quick judgment in a pressure situation in which he had only moments
to react. The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the
operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that
it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming
American cruise missiles, then fired.
The two missiles that brought the plane down came from a Russian-made system designated
SA-15 by NATO and called Tor by the Russians. Its eight missiles are normally mounted on a
tracked vehicle. The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an
independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system
functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents. Given
what happened on that morning in Tehran, it is plausible to assume that something or someone
deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the
airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be
attributed to the Iranian government.
The SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be
hacked or "spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take
control. The United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can
fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also
means fooling the operator. The Guardian has also
reported independently how the United States military has long been developing systems that
can from a distance alter the electronics and targeting of Iran's available missiles.
The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a
civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location.
The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter signals
relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel presumably has
the same ability. Joe Quinn at Sott.net
also notes an interested back story to those photos
and video footage that have appeared in the New York Times and elsewhere showing the
Iranian missile launch, the impact with the plane and the remains after the crash, to include
the missile remains. They appeared on January 9 th , in an Instagram account called
' Rich Kids of
Tehran '. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in "a low-income housing estate on
the city's outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8 th
with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a
Ukrainian passenger plane ?"
Put together the Rich Kids and the possibility of electronic warfare and it all suggests a
premeditated and carefully planned event of which
the Soleimani assassination was only a part. There have been riots in Iran subsequent to
the shooting down of the plane, blaming the government for its ineptitude. Some of the people
in the street are clearly calling for the goal long sought by the United States and Israel,
i.e. "regime change." If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing
of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another
unprincipled actor with blood on its hands. There is much still to explain about the downing of
Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752.
Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National
Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation (Federal ID Number #52-1739023) that
seeks a more interests-based U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.
Given this news, any impartial observer would at least entertain the possibility of
its truth, particularly given the lengthy track record of the United States/Israel in
perpetrating such crimes.
It's a good litmus test for determining where one's sentiment lies. Even "alternative
media" aren't likely to touch this story.
The Iranian Ambassador to Britain, Hamid Baeidinejad said in an interview on the UK Channel 4
news hours ago that although Iran had needed time to determine what had happened, it had now
accepted responsibility, would pay compensation, and the people who fired on the jet will be
put on trial.
If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani,
is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another
unprincipled actor with blood on its hands.
Both Trump and the Iranian regime have good domestic disquiet reason to rethink the
confrontational policy each are pursuing. Iran and the US could get closer over this. I think
the predictable unpredictability of assassination and catastrophic loss of life events
makes false flagging them of dubious value.
Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was
inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it
so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the
money was the chips, that's all.
(Sutton W, Linn E: Where the Money Was: The Memoirs of a Bank Robber. Viking Press
(1976), p. 160)
I suppose it is possible there are people who get addicted to false flagging others'
deaths. If half of what is said in this site is true, Mossad really needs to set up a 12 step
program.
" .the big question which many people on social media are asking is: why was this
"videographer" standing in a derelict industrial area outside Tehran at around six o'clock in
the morning with a mobile phone camera training on a fixed angle to the darkened sky? The
airliner is barely visible, yet the sky-watching person has the camera pointed and ready to
film a most dramatic event, seconds before it happened. That strongly suggests,
foreknowledge."
The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the
planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the
missiles were launched.
I vaguely recall reports of transponder issues arising during the shootdown of
MH-17.
Civilian passenger flights were still departing and arriving in Tehran, almost certainly
an error in judgment on the part of the airport authorities. Inexplicably, civilian
aircraft continued to take off and land even after Flight 752 was shot down.
The Iranian government is blameworthy for keeping planes in the air either because of
diabolical reasons (delays a counter attack) or economic (nearly $1 billion a year in
overflight fees).
However, the pilots of the airliners that took over during the morning between the first
missile hitting Iraq and the downing of the Ukrainian airliner were dumb and
irresponsible.
The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent
launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system
functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent
accidents.
Clearly you have no clue how an IFF operates and that no commercial airliner even has an
IFF on board. Every commercial aircraft looks like the enemy to this SAM
operator.
Also, you need to explain how spoofing a RADAR which creates a false track would cause the
shoot down. The missile would simply target the false track instead of the real aircraft.
You also need to explain how an old SAM missile site can be hacked or spoofed to shoot
down a civilian airliner. Especially this old one which has no Mode-S or ADS-B capability and
only radio communication capability.
As Mark Twain said, it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an
idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Even if this was a clear mistake on Iran's part, the US and Israel still have blood on their
hands for the downing of this plane. The missiles were launched in response to a targeted
killing of an Iranian general. If that didn't happen, these missiles never would've been
launched.
Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost.
I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani
to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.
@Anon Before calling someone an idiot it is better to follow Mark Twain's advice
yourself. A more careful reading reveals no claim that IFF was onstalled on the airliner. The
commenter does speculate that possible spoofing involved a false attribution of a real
airliner not the creation of a false airliner and radar track. Perhaps you are familiar with
"old" electronic countermeasures and not with the "new", "top secret" and spiffy versions
hinted at by the U.S. military?
@Quartermaster /An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the
claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground
when it quit./
As it climbed and reached 4,600ft above ground level, the plane's transponder suddenly
stopped working at about 6.14am, 2 minutes or so after take off . [emphasis
added]
The plane was already airborne when the transponder stopped working.
@Onlooker Less than twenty replies into the thread and we've already got two individuals
attempting to distort the facts. Here's the key link that readers should visit:
The airliner had not been in the air long at all when it was shot down. An Airliner can
not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting
"several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit.
The flight departed Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airport at 02:42 UTC ( 06:12
local time ) and the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network at 02:44
UTC( 06:14 local time) . According to the report the aircraft climbed to 8000 feet and
turned right back toward the airport and crashed at 02:48 UTC ( 06:18 local time ) --
four minutes after the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network. –
Source
Flight Radar 24
Mr. Giraldi's original claim:
The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the
planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the
missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the
air defense command, which may have been related.
4 minutes after the transponders were switches off, the plane crashed .
Without [proper] access to the FDR and CVR, it's impossible to determine when the plane
was hit and how long it took to crash, exactly.
The plane was only flying at 8,000 feet [its normal {flight} ceiling is 30,000 feet and
above], so it's speed relatively low [cruise speed is between about 400 and 500 knots (460
– 575 mph / 740 – 930 kph), but the Ukrainian plane was still climbing] and the
fall back to Earth relatively quick.
On the clip where the plane is on fire and finally crashes, the downward angle looked to
be about 25 to 30 %, which is relatively steep. Time of downfall can be calculated when the
relative data is available.
Therefore, Mr Giraldi's claim " several minutes before the missiles were launched "
is technically correct , until proven wrong by data from the FDR and CVR,
The Tor system is too primitive to be hacked. It is a stand alone, autonomous and mostly
analog system. The radar signals it generates are shown on analog tube-screens.
Interesting theory by P. Giraldi. However, I am very surprised that Israel/Mossad role in
these acts of terrorism never mentioned. We know that Trump is a Zionist servant and acts on
instructions from his jewish fananciers. We know, Trump is incapable of serious thinking.
The Iranians took the hit because their missiles took out the airliner. And then, they could
stop the Western media crying for the next 6 mos. and this gave them time to bring in other
neutral investigators to look at the evidence and come up with logical scenarios. There is a
reason the black boxes weren't given to any one else to own – because they still
remember the scam investigation of MH 17. I f lew planes for over 20 yrs – Every
controlled/radared airport would ask me to turn on my transponder if it wasn't on –
Everyone of them. This plane not only came from Ukraine but was an easy target for a hack
from any of the big Intel countries. The BIG STORY here is that most every plane flying today
– can have the same type consequences!!! because of the Western War Machine.
Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives
lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured
Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.
Trudeau showed some real courage criticizing Trump and his terrible decisions.
More Western allies have to stand up to the Zionist stooge and call him out on his
treachery and stupidity.
@bobhammer Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Turn off Fox News now.
We are not always the good guys and we are up to our necks in deceit, plunder, and evil.
Our actions have harmed millions of people around the world and it has to stop.
It is time for more self-reflection as individuals and as a nation; and it is long past
time for us to be comfortable with lies.
@bobhammer The "uninterruptible" autopilot can be activated – either by pilots or
by on-board sensors, or by radio or satellite link<= connected to controls at the remote
end. Government agencies, quasi government agencies, military brats and probably the entire
group of privately operated NGOs and private party mobsters (bankers, corporations and
private military armies and privateers) at the remote end, can take over control of in-flight
Aircraft, and fly it, land it, take it off, whatever, even if the pilot sitting in the
cockpit objects. and does all he can to retrieve control from the remote operator.
Several comments report says interrupt able remote control, allows, persons on the ground,
to take from the pilot in a flying airplane, control of the airplane the pilot is suppose to
be flying, in situations for example when terrorist are in the cockpit. I have not read the
manufacture's literature nor do I have personal knowledge abut the equipment list of any of
these aircraft, the list suggest they are all aircraft, not only equipped with the UAP but
that they were all aircraft made by the same manufacturer. I am merely repeating what was on
stated as fact on a website I visited.
Many are looking for proof that remotely equipped uninterruptible autopilots are being
used as Remote Control weaponized drones . Imagine an pilot, located on the ground in
London or somewhere parks his /her remote ground to air control vehicle and takes over flight
control including turns on/off the transponder [<=which tells everyone where the plane is
during its flight] on a plane that is flying, landing or taking off from say the Tehran
airport in Iran?
My personal experience is that it generally takes less than 2 minutes after a transponder
is turned off during a planes flight, before fighter jets arrive to escort the transponder
disabled plane; so the whole system that protects civilian aircraft, and allows the military
to know the aircraft is civilian, is dependent on the Transponder, installed in the airplane,
to continuously squawk during flight, its exact position so that everyone can identify the
flight, and track the aircraft during its flight. Every land based control tower, ATC control
system center and military installation depends on that airborne squawking transponder to
track the en-route progress of commercial and private aircraft flights from take off to
landing.
Another comment made on that list referred to above claimed Uninterruptible Auto Pilot
[UAP] equipped aircraft have been involved in unexplained flight accident/disappearance
events (I have no personal knowledge about the equipment in these aircraft, I just repeated
here what someone else said elsewhere, please verify these claims yourself or provide
verification ) .
(4 @911) <=UAP allows pilot-less flights, no pilot need board the plane for its
flight.
(PS752) (transponder turned off, destroyed by confused ground defense crews)
MH370 (vanished into thin air)
MH17 (had its flight path altered.)
Eyes focus on Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (UAP) .. to explain recent Tehran 160 person
disaster?
This is really something to think about? Always the question has been how did four
military officers from Iran, trained a few weeks in Florida to fly jets, manage to get
through four differently located pilot screening TSA gates to fly the aircraft and passenger
into the 9/11 events. Conspiracy theories suggest since no pilot is needed, there were no
pilots for TSA to screening. Remote control on the ground flew the aircraft to their
destinations.
Just about says it all doesn't it? What kind of people are we dealing with here? Of course
only the morons out there are still being fooled by these kind of false flags. Even in the
year 2020 these same morons still believe ZOG's 9-11 fairy tale and label any other theory as
a "conspiracy." Speaking of conspiracies the biggest idiots out there, even bigger than the
ones who believe ZOG's narrative or those type who believe the total wacktard stuff put out
by ZIO controlled disinfo puppets like Alex Jones.
Ukrainian commercial airline? What other nation besides Iran does ZOG have it in for? Is
it Russia?
War by deception? HARDLY to anyone with two brain cells left. These fools have been caught
before, they aren't that clever. What they are is protected by a syndicate of bought and paid
for politicians. They were caught attacking the USS Liberty, they were caught bombing
American and British installations in Egypt, the Rosenbergs and Pollard were nailed, but of
course despite all of this, America and her leaders continued the value Israel as a friend
and an ally. With a friend like Israel, who needs enemies. Then of course we have the story
of our 5 little dancing Israelis apprehended in NYC after being observed dancing and
celebrating the WTC towers collapsing. So you mean a group of Israelis from Israel, nation
that is ALLEGEDLY "friends" with America and America think it is hilarious and worth
celebrating when America is attacked and thousands are burned alive or jump to their death
from hundreds of feet above the street?? Of course "our" media quickly exonerated the
celebrating Israelis and buried that story faster than your average house cat buries his own
turds.
ZOG really thinks the average American has the IQ of a monkey. Even after the WMD caca
they still think you people will believe anything they tell you to believe. The sad part is
they are right about that with the majority of the population.
OK pilgrims, we are told today that there are mobs in the streets of Tehran protesting the
shoot down of the Ukrainian airliner. 176 were killed. We are carefully not told (thus far) how
many Iranians are mobbed up in the streets but the implication spread by the Foxnews clown car
is that the "Maximum Pressure" sanctions and propaganda campaign run by Israel and the US is
about to cause the fall of the Islamic Republic of Iran. OK We will see.
Long ago during the Iran-Iraq War an Americans frigate USS Stark was attacked in the Gulf by
an Iraqi F-! Mirage. The ship was hit by two French built Exocet missiles. I was a member of
the JCS investigating board that traveled to Bahrein and Baghdad for the inquiry. The damage to
the ship was frightful and many American sailors had been killed and wounded. The JCS decided
that a chain of unfortunate and mistaken events had led to the incident but the US Navy
conducted its own investigation and destroyed the careers of the captain of USS Stark and all
his officers. The navy is very unforgiving of damage to its boats. Unless you have the vessel
shot out from under you by enemy action you might as well go down with the ship
Later in the course of that war the anti-aircraft guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes was
in the Gulf and it shot down an Iranian airliner killing 290 people on board. The Iranians were
and probably still are convinced that Vincennes shot down the airliner as a result of the
inherently evil and malevolent nature of the US.
In fact what happened was that the captain of Vincennes was afraid of suffering the same
fate as the captain of the Stark who had been accused of not being quick enough to engage the
Iraqi fighter bomber.
Well, folks, STUFF HAPPENS and the human link in a chain of events is always the most
important link.
IMO Iranian air defenses accidentally shot down the Ukrainian airliner. Stuff Happens,
especially in war. PL
When the bullets start flying and the bombs start dropping, terrible things can happen
that no one has planned for. This is one of the great tragedies of war. Unintended
consequences and so-called "collateral damage."
"... What no one is mentioning is: the US airstrikes on Iraqi military bases, and Soleimani's murder contributed greatly to the hair trigger response of Iran's air defense forces. If Washington did not turn the heat up on both Iraq and Iran there would have been no need for Iran's retaliation, and thus the level of Iran's domestic defense forces would not have been so nervous as to pull the trigger downing the airliner. ..."
"... Former CIA high-ranking official accidentally reveals the type of the false flag operation that the US imperialists will orchestrate to start a war with Iran https://failedevolution.blogspot.com/2020/01/former-cia-high-ranking-official.html ..."
"... It reminds me too much of MH-17, which was not hit with a BUK but with bullets. Iran should have closed its airspace because such tricks are to be expected, irrespective of the cause of the current accident. ..."
When the Pentagon confirmed the assassination of Iranian Major General Qasem Soleimani, U.S.
President Donald Trump took to social media to post a single image of the American flag to the
adulation of his followers. Unfortunately, most Americans are ignorant of the other flag
synonymous with U.S. foreign policy, that of the 'false flag' utilized to deceive the public
and stir up support for endless war abroad. While the chicken hawk defenders of Trump's
reckless decision to murder one of the biggest contributors in the defeat of ISIS salivated
over possible war with Iran, their appetite was spoiled by Tehran's retaliatory precision
strikes of two U.S. bases in Iraq that deliberately avoided casualties while in accordance with
the Islamic Republic's right to self defense under Article 51 of the United Nations charter.
The reprisal successfully deescalated the crisis but sent a clear message Iran was willing to
stand up to the U.S. with the backing of Russia and China, while Washington underestimated
Tehran which forewarned the Iraqi government of its impending counterattack so U.S. personnel
could evacuate.
In the hours following the ballistic missile strikes, reports came in that a Boeing 737
international passenger flight scheduled from Tehran to Kiev, Ukraine had crashed shortly after
takeoff from Imam Khomeini International Airport, killing all 176 passengers and flight crew on
board. Initial video of the crash of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 (PS752) showed
that the aircraft was already in flames while descending to the ground, leading to speculation
it was shot down amid the heightened political crisis between Iran and Washington. In the days
following, a second obscure video surfaced which only increased this suspicion. Meanwhile,
Western governments quickly concluded that an anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile brought
PS752 down and were eager to point the finger at Iran before any formal investigation. Many
people, including this author, were admittedly skeptical as to how a plane taking off from
Tehran could have been mistaken five hours after the strikes in Iraq.
Nevertheless, those with reservations turned out to be wrong when days later the Islamic
Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) came clean that its aerospace forces made a "human error" and
accidentally shot the passenger plane down after mistaking it for a incoming cruise missile
when it flew close to a military base during a heightened state of alert in anticipation of
U.S. attack. Many have noted that Iran's honorable decision to take responsibility for the
catastrophe is in sharp contrast with Washington's response in 1988 when the U.S. Navy shot
down Iran Air Flight 655 scheduled from Tehran to Dubai over the Strait of Hormuz in the
Persian Gulf, killing all 290 occupants, after failing to cover it up. Just a month later, Vice
President George H.W. Bush would notoriously state he would " never apologize for the United
States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are ." Although he was not directly
referring to the incident, one can only imagine what the reaction would be if Iranian President
Hassan Rouhani were to say the same weeks after shooting down the Ukrainian plane, let alone an
American one. Predictably, Tehran's transparency has gone mostly unappreciated while the Trump
administration is already trying to use the disaster to further demonize Iran.
Oddly enough, Ukrainian International Airlines is partly owned by the infamous
Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, politician and energy tycoon Igor Kolomoisky, who was notably one
of the biggest financiers of the anti-Russian, pro-EU coup d'etat which overthrew the
democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014. Kolomoisky is also a principal
backer of current Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky whose dubious phone call with Trump
resulted in the 45th U.S. president's impeachment last month. In another astounding
coincidence, Kolomoisky's Privat Group is believed to control Burisma Holdings, the
Cypress-based company whose executive board 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden's son Hunter
was appointed to following the Maidan junta. The former Vice President admitted that he bribed
Ukraine into firing its top prosecutor who was looking into his son's corruption by threatening
to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees.
Kolomoisky, AKA "the Chameleon", is one of the wealthiest people in the ex-Soviet country
and was formerly appointed as governor of an administrative region bordering Donbass in eastern
Ukraine following the 2014 putsch. He has also funded a battalion of volunteer neo-Nazi
mercenaries fighting alongside the Ukrainian army in the War in Donbass against
Russian-speaking separatists which the military aid temporarily withheld by the Trump
administration that was disputably contingent upon an investigation of Biden and his son goes
to. In 2014, another infamous plane shootdown made international headlines when Malaysian
Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) scheduled from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over the
breakaway Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 passengers and
crew.
From the get-go, the Obama administration was adamant that the missile which shot down the
Boeing 777 came from separatist rebel territory. However, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin
Mohamad denounced the charges brought against the Russian and Ukrainian nationals indicted in
the NATO-led investigation, dismissing the entire probe as a politically motivated effort
predetermined to scapegoat Moscow and exclude Malaysian participation in the inquiry from the
very beginning. Mohamad is featured in the excellent documentaryMH17: Call for Justice
made by a team of independent journalists which contests the NATO-scripted narrative and
reveals that the Buk missile was more likely launched from Ukrainian Army-controlled territory
than the DPR. One of Kolomoisky's hired guns could also have been responsible.
Shamefully, Iran's admission of guilt in the PS752 downing is already being used by
establishment propagandists to discredit skeptics and conflated with similar contested past
events like MH17 in order to intimidate dissenting voices from speaking up in the future. The
Bellingcat 'investigative journalism' collective which made its name incriminating Moscow for
the MH17 tragedy are the principle offenders. Bellingcat bills itself as an 'independent'
citizen journalism group even though its founder Eliot Higgins is employed by the Atlantic
Council think tank which receives funding from NATO, the U.S. State Department, the National
Endowment for Democracy (NED), George Soros' Open Society Foundation NGO, and numerous other
regime change factories. Despite its enormous conflict of interest, Bellingcat remains highly
cited by corporate media as a supposedly reputable source. At the outset, nearly everything
about the PS752 tragedy gave one déjà vu of the MH17 disaster, including the rush
to judgement by Western governments, so it was only natural for many to distrust the official
narrative until more facts came out.
None of this changes that the use of commercial passenger jets as false flag targets for
U.S. national security subterfuge is a verifiable historical fact, not a 'conspiracy theory.'
In 1997, the U.S. National Archives declassified a 1962 memo proposed by the Joint
Chiefs of Staff and Department of Defense for then-Secretary of State Robert McNamara entitled
" Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba ." The document outlined a series
of 'false flag' terrorist attacks, codenamed Operation Northwoods, to be carried out on a range
of targets and blamed on the Cuban government to give grounds for an invasion of Havana in
order to depose Fidel Castro. These scenarios included targets within the U.S., in particular
Miami, Florida, which had become a haven of right-wing émigrés and defectors
following the Cuban Revolution. In addition to the sinking of a Cuban refugee boat, one
Northwoods plan included the staging of attacks on a civilian jet airliner and a U.S. Air Force
plane to be pinned on Castro's government:
"8. It is possible to create and incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban
aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States
to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the
flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a
holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a
non-scheduled flight.
9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban
MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack."
Although Operation Northwoods was rejected by then-U.S. President John F. Kennedy which many
believe was a factor in his subsequent assassination, Cuban exiles with the support of U.S.
intelligence would later be implicated in such an attack the following decade with the bombing
of Cubana Airlines Flight 455 in 1976 which killed all 73 passengers and crew on board. In
2005, documents released by the
National Security Archive showed that the CIA under then-director George H.W. Bush had advanced
knowledge of the plans of a Dominican Republic-based Cuban exile terrorist organization, the
Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU), at the direction of former CIA
operative Luis Posada Carriles to blow up the airliner. The U.S. later refused to extradite
Carriles to Cuba to face charges and although he never admitted to masterminding the bombing of
the jet, he publicly confessed to other attacks on tourist hotels in Cuba during the 1990s and
was later arrested in 2000 for attempting to blow up an auditorium in Panama trying to
assassinate Castro.
In 1962, the planners of Operation Northwoods concluded that such deceptive operations would
shift U.S. public opinion unanimously against Cuba.
"World opinion and the United Nations forum should be favorably affected by developing the
international image of Cuban government as rash and irresponsible, and as an alarming and
unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere."
The same talking points are used by the U.S. government to demonize Iran today. Initially,
some Western intelligence sources also
concluded that it was a malfunction or overheated engine that brought PS752 down in
corroboration with the Iranian government's original explanation until the narrative abruptly
shifted the following day. That they were so quick to hold Iran accountable without any
investigation gave the apparent likelihood that PS752 could have fallen prey to a
Northwoods-style false flag operation designed to further isolate Iran and defame its leaders
after they took precautions to avoid U.S. casualties in their retaliatory strikes for the
killing of Soleimani. Maintaining the image of Iran as a nefarious regime is crucial in
justifying hawkish U.S. policies toward the country and Iran's noted restraint in its
retaliation put a dent in that impression, so many were suspicious and rightly so.
It was also entirely plausible that U.S. special operations planners could have consulted
the Northwoods playbook replacing Cuba with Iran and the right-wing gusanos who were to assist
the staged attacks in Miami with the Iranian opposition group known as Mujahedin e-Khalq
(MEK/People's Mujahedin of Iran) to do the same in Tehran. In July of last year, Trump's
personal lawyer and former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani gave a paid speech at the
cult-like group's compound in Albania where he not only referred to the group as Iran's
"government-in-exile" but stated
the U.S's explicit intentions to use them for regime change in Iran. The MEK enjoys high level
contacts in the Trump administration and the group was elated at his decision to murder
Soleimani in Baghdad.
From 1997 until 2012, the MEK was on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations
until it was removed by the Obama administration after its expulsion from Iraq in order to
relocate the group to fortified bases in Albania and the NATO protectorate of Kosovo. The
latter disputed territory is a perfect fit for the rebranded group having been founded by
another deregistered foreign terrorist organization, the al-Qaeda linked Kosovo Liberation Army
(KLA), whose leader, Hashim Thaçi, presides over the partially-recognized state. The MEK
are no longer designated as such despite the State Department's own account of its
bloody history:
"During the 1970s, the MEK staged terrorist attacks inside Iran to destabilize and
embarrass the Shah's regime; the group killed several US military personnel and civilians
working on defense projects in Tehran. The group also supported the takeover in 1979 of the
US Embassy in Tehran. In April 1992 the MEK carried out attacks on Iranian embassies in 13
different countries, demonstrating the group's ability to mount large-scale operations
overseas."
Declassified documents revealing the sinister plans in Operation Northwoods which shockingly
made it all the way to the desk of the president of the United States and the foreknowledge of
Cubana Airlines Flight 455 are just two examples of solid proof that false flag attacks against
civilian passenger planes are a part of the Pentagon's modus operandi as disclosed in its own
archives and there is no reason to believe that such practices have been discontinued. That the
U.S. is still cozy with "former" terror groups like MEK seeking to repatriate is good reason to
believe its use of militant exiles for covert operations like those from Havana has not been
retired. If there were jumps to conclusions that proven serial liars could be looking for an
excuse to stage an attack to lay the blame on Iran, it is only because the distinct probability
was overwhelming. Even so, a stopped clock strikes the right time twice per day and that is
all Iran's acknowledgment of its liability proves -- that even the world's most
unreliable and criminal sources in Washington and Langley can be accurate sometimes
What no one is mentioning is: the US airstrikes on Iraqi military bases, and Soleimani's
murder contributed greatly to the hair trigger response of Iran's air defense forces. If
Washington did not turn the heat up on both Iraq and Iran there would have been no need for
Iran's retaliation, and thus the level of Iran's domestic defense forces would not have been
so nervous as to pull the trigger downing the airliner.
But, if's a huge word.
Israel has had control of Iran's Russian middle systems for years. Russia gave them the
codes.
I think Israel blew up the aircraft. I can't find a link but I heard a huge number of
Soleimani loyalists were arrested in Iran. Someone should have a link to that from Twitter or
somewhere.
I think that there was some kind of collaboration between Khamenei, Israel and the US to
remove Soleimani who had designs on a coup.
I don't know if this is a good or bad thing.
I also don't know who was on that plane. So it's unclear if it was good or bad it was
destroyed. Who knows who those 176 dual Iranian Nationals were.
I just know that if Israel had control of those missile units and it would embarrass Iran
for that to be revealed it makes sense for Iran to claim the lesser of two deep shames.
Particularly if there has been some kind of tacit acceptance of a status as a vassal state
to either the US or Israel behind the scenes to preserve the regime.
Perhaps the MEK or a different vassal ruler who is really crypto Jewish will be appointed
in Solemeinis place, and Iran will hence offer a symbolic enemy to justify the continuation
of the military industrial complex in both Israel and the US.
Even a blind squirrel, even a broken clock twice a day.. The Empire's statements and blind
accusations could have been for any tragedy in a country they were psyopsing, only a matter
of chance for them to be right at some time. In any case, it wasn't intentional on Iran's
part.
Only if accidental means a joint Russian/Iranian hit on a Ukrainian plane carrying fleeing
cia/mossad agents.
This whole situation has once again displayed how easy it is for the zio-media to control
what we see and hear and believe. Disturbingly, that means that things like metoo and
"believe all women" are operations too.
@the grand wazoo I wouldn't be surprised it the FDR shows that the plane strayed off its
registered Flightpath and was involved in a covert recon mission that went bad.
It reminds me too much of MH-17, which was not hit with a BUK but with bullets. Iran should have closed its airspace
because such tricks are to be expected, irrespective of the cause of the current accident. There is no immediate reason
for Iranians to fly to Ukraine, or anywhere else. It may sound silly but flying is still a special and dangerous thing and
should not be taken for granted.
For someone who doesn't watch television or read Iranian newspapers it was only reported
on Twitter and then repeated by PressTV and others on internet. Which parts of the story are
real?
Of course, it was a huge and most regrettable mistake. Doubtless, the Iranians will
compensate the victims for what that is worth. Most of the passengers were Iranians. I
suspect that many of the "Canadians" Trudeau is on about are of Iranian descent. They would
certainly be considered to be Iranians in Iran.
The series of coincidences highlighted in this article are remarkable. It has
synchronicity splashed all over it.
I worked at Tehran airport for some years prior to the Revolution. After the Revolution, I
volunteered to return on behalf of Raytheon (of all companies) to get some money owing. No
one else was prepared to go there. Iran Air personnel were delighted to meet me again and
they promptly paid the bill. I took a holiday to the Caspian with my ex-girlfriend.
A further piece of synchronicity is that I am currently visiting Kiev. The world is a
truly incestuous place.
Set aside the beatup of two operations that neither the CIA or any American agency carried
out the author has apparently failed to see the obvious. That is that the Iranians had no
possibility of covering up the missile strike. Or did he imagine that everyone who might tell
the truth could be kept permanently separated from plane parts and bodies which would have
shown unmistakeable and undeniable evidences of the strike.
Boeing's is, of course, not the first autopilot technology in existence, but this one
has been designed with counterterrorism first and foremost in mind. Not only is it
"uninterruptible" -- so that even a tortured pilot cannot turn it off -- but it can be
activated remotely via radio or satellite by government agencies.
Patrick Laforet
•
19 hours ago This is an interesting article on the possible causes and motivations of the
downing of the Boeing in Iran. It's clear that when we ask the question "Who benefits greatly
from this event", we are forced to say the US. (Google translation is decent)
.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE UKRAINIAN BOEING KILLED (show down) IN IRAN
.
https://inforuss.info/chto-...
Yeah, an airliner shootdown because the (tired, stressed, undertrained) SAM operators fucked
up. Fuckups are inherent to military operations in wartime, peacetime often enough too, and
the time of this accident was both combined, and that certainly made it likelier to happen,
too, dammit.
I am pleased to see Iran assume responsibility, promptly enough I reckon, for the
shootdown. I trust it will be writing suitable sized checks to the heirs, and one to the
Ukrainian airline too. About all that can be done; something that needs doing for everyone's
sake.
Iran's assuming responsibility for its shootdown of a civilian airliner by accident
contrasts to ours'.* The USA still is dodging its responsibility for the 1980 Itavia DC-9
shootdown. Most nobody in the USA knows about that incident, but I am told it remains an
ongoing sore/issue in Italy/Italian politics. My piece from years ago is here: https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/12/21/jimmy-carter-in-austin/
. Since writing this, I wrote Mr. Carter via the Carter Library and via his church in Plains,
GA, but never heard back. Unpleasant conclusions about Mr. Carter's integrity must be drawn
from this. And similar conclusions about the USA's, and its people's.
My condolences to the families.
Daniel N. White
*Yeah, and the French Navy and nation, too. Apparently back in '68 the French Navy
inadvertently shot down an Air France Caravelle over the Med. Immediate hiding of information
and physical evidence started and continues to this day. [Did you think I'd pass up this
opportunity to kick the French?]
When I compare these, it appears that the IRGC estimate of where the missile hit is WELL
AFTER transmission of flight data has ended.
Also, logically, a plane climbing a short distance from an airport should not resemble a
drone. Might an operator assume a drone if the plane were DESCENDING?
Thus, there's the possibility of a scenario where a bomb under the cockpit causes
the plane to start descending and the IRGC fire a missile as a because the plane's descent
causes the operator to surmise that it is a drone instead of a plane.
Might there have been a bomb AND missile hit?
Note: This possibility arises only because of what seems to be a mismatch in the data from
the airplane and the IRGC's estimate of where the plane was hit. Perhaps IRGC's graphic is
incorrect?
<> <> <> <> <> <>
Aside: AFAICT the plane wasn'tturning back to the airport ! It was
on a normal flight path which turned slightly but that turning was apparently exacerbated
after the plane was hit. That increased turning made it SEEM like it was turning back to the
airport.
Many of you still seemed perplexed as to why Iran allowed commercial flights to go on during
such a potentially tense time. Let me make it clear for everyone, they were tricked by the
ZioAmericans. Basically, the Iranians were allowed to get their " face saving attack " on the
Americans while thinking this would be the end of the whole episode. Little did they suspect
that the US had prepared the Ukrainian plane scenario followed by instantaneous protests. The
Iranians walked into a trap.
- Swiss Back Channel Helped Defuse U.S.-Iran Crisis -
The U.S. sent an encrypted fax via the Swiss Embassy in Tehran urging Iran not to escalate,
followed by a flurry of back and forth messages -
@Vasco da Gama Regarding the FAA NOTAMS restricting airspace a list is provided here. It is not accurate
to claim only Tehran was restricted:
Exactly. And if the Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority had followed the FAA lead and
grounded its aircraft in Iran , the Ukraine Air aircraft would not have gotten shot
down .
The Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority didn't exactly perform well either.
@Fog Of War Many of you still seemed perplexed as to why Iran allowed commercial flights to go on
during such a potentially tense time. Let me make it clear for everyone, they were tricked by
the ZioAmericans.
A more plausible reason is here . The relevant except
follows:
"The first thing a country should do in case of escalation of the military conflict is to
close the sky for civilian flights," said retired Ukrainian Gen. Ihor Romanenko, a military
analyst. " But this entails serious financial losses , fines and forfeits, therefore a
cynical approach prevailed in Iran."
CognitiveDissonance , Jan 12 2020 5:25 utc |
379Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 5:52 utc |
380
Jackrabbit 368 "Aside: AFAICT the plane wasn't turning back to the airport! It was on a
normal flight path which turned slightly but that turning was apparently exacerbated after
the plane was hit. That increased turning made it SEEM like it was turning back to the
airport."
From the Ukraine description of the damage, the pilots would be unlikely to have any
control over the plane even if they were not dead or incapacitated. From my understanding the
aircraft was on its way back to the airport when it crashed.
Iran government was intitaly very sure the aircraft came down due to a tehnical problem which
makes me think the pilots radioed in that they had a problem before they were hit. This is
why I think the plane was hit after the turn back to the airport.
if they turn back to the the airport brought the plane to where it was facing the military
site during the turn this may have caused the airdefence crew to fire. Already on high alert,
their coms down and perhaps the planes transponder stops transmitting whould be more than
enough suspition to down the aircraft.
A preplanned operation that cut air defence coms and disabled the aircraft (as in cut one
engine plus transponder) at the same time.
In b's previous piece on the aircraft, b had this to say "The airplane climbed out of Tehran
airport in a rather straight line. The teams that man the Tor systems around Tehran must be
used to the regular radar track of civil planes coming out of Tehran airport. That makes an
accidental launch somewhat unlikely."
This is still very relevent. Something about that flight was different causing the Tor
crew to fire. A sudden turn back to the airport along with trasponder transmissions stopping
and air defence comms down would cause this.
The Iranian apologia is a masterclass in grace..
Unfortunately the courage to admit responsibility is not understood as a civilised response,
but that is what one expects from barbarians.
Iran has admitted that it shot down the plane. Perhaps that was the intention of this
tragedy.
Do you remember how it was in Tehran in the election year of 2008?
Luce Ducet of the BBC was on the streets spruiking for the Iranian "colour revolution". But
Amadenijad won regardless.
They are trying it again but it won't work. Never does.
However there will be chaos and that has proven to be tremendously profitable.
DontBelieveEitherPr.@214 ( and other recent trolls)
Please do us a favor by helping with the following issues:
(1) list all countries invaded by the US compared to Iran. Each instance of an invasion of
a given country is required as some countries were invaded several times;
(2) In the last 200 years list all countries overthrown by a coup by the US and its
proxy's compared to Iran;
After failing in this simple task go back commenting somewhere else...
There are still a couple of things that bother me about this.
1.) is that for those of you who are saying it would be hard to distinguish an incoming
enemy plane from a commercial airliner such as Pometheus @ 178 who said:
6) A RADAR signature CANNOT distinguish a commercial airline aircraft from a military
aircraft - especially since some military aircraft use 737 airframes.
would that also apply to a cruise missile? That is, would it also be difficult to
distinguish between a commercial airliner and a cruise missile? Because, from what I've seen,
that's the claim that's being made -- that the SAM operator responsible for launching the
missile against the airliner was on high alert due to warnings of possible cruise missile
launches against Iran and that he mistook the target for a cruise missile -- or at least
suspected that it was -- which, according to the narrative, is why he only had a 10-second
window within which to make the decision to launch and why when there were "communication
problems" that prevented him from getting a hold of his superiors, he had to basically flip a
coin -- and unfortunately made the wrong choice. Now, I don't know if this narrative is still
current, because what I read did say this account was an "early assessment", but if it is, if
it's still what they're saying -- is it plausible? is what I'm asking. Or would this
represent a hole in their narrative? Maybe someone on here could clarify this for me?
Possibly Prometheus?
The other thing that bugs me, is who took the footage of the plane actually being hit? How
did he know to train his camera in that direction at that particular place and time? Is it
somebody who just hangs around and films planes that happen to be passing by? Or is it some
camera that is maybe in a fixed position, like a security camera, that just happened to pick
this up? (and actually, I have to say, it doesn't look like security camera footage to me) Or
what? Because it is conceivable that this could indicate foreknowledge... which, of course,
would indicate a planned event as opposed to an accident. Maybe someone could shed light on
this for me as well?
But because of my lingering doubts I have also entertained the possibility raised by paul
@ 188 that the Iranians may be lying about this in order to prevent (what would be certain)
further escalation. What better way to defuse the situation than by claiming it was all just
an unfortunate accident? (I guess what I have in mind is that it could have conceivably been
an MEK, CIA, Mossad operation timed to eclipse the Soleimani and al-Muhandis murder stories
and also further their campaign of escalation against Iran.)
Of course, I'm not maintaining that it's the case, necessarily. But the possibility did
cross my mind even before I came across paul @ 188's comment. And there are some obvious
problems with this narrative as well... which I probably don't need to go into here. But
whatever the case may be, I'd still like an answer to the misgivings I raised above... if
someone could shed light on them, I'd appreciate it.
Speculation: The cases with planes turned into weapons all seem to be Boeings and not
Airbuses if I am not mistaken, 4 Boeings @ 911 plus this one (PS752). You could argue that
MH370 (vanished) and MH17 (altered flight path) possibly also fall into this category, they
were Boeing planes. So a guess is that the Boeing Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (BUAP) plays a
role in some or all of these cases, and possibly other ones as well.
If BUAP was used to disable the PS752 pilots + all communication and then switch off one
engine during full throttle take-off, what does that do to the flight path? Perhaps an
interesting flight simulator exercise, but it would obviously turn. As others have pointed
out, a civilian plane does not have IFF and will therefore be identified as hostile when it
suddenly appears in front of a Tor-M1 battery because it was made to turn.
A detailed time-line would be useful, i.e. times for take-off, communication loss, when
the plane started turning, missile launch, missile hit, final crash. It could possibly narrow
the field of possibilities.
"I don't think it is beyond the US to have used the opportunity to test Iranian
radars."
Remember the Soviet downing of Flight KAL 007 back in September '83. The fear of WW3 then
was just as real as what we experienced last week. The US purposefully confused KAL 007's
identity by flying RC-135 reconnaissance flights near it before its reaching Soviet airspace
(both are Boeing, easy to mistake for each other). Some have mentioned that the pilot was
Korean CIA. Either way the US got invaluable data on Soviet air defenses by its incursion
near Vladivostok, and the USSR was attacked by the capitalist media afterward just as Iran is
now.
Whether via hacking or sabotage of the plane, transponder or IFF (e.g., as Peter AU1
outlines @232) or something else entirely, this kind of action or outright weaponization of
Ukrainian flight PS 752 is a possibility here as well.
ps -- massive thanks to bevin for very powerful comments @30 and @242.
Indeed it is speculation but that sometimes has its place to help break up the
mass-programming going on.
Remote drone control and flight by instruments are very close in technologies and one
could easily imagine
the inbuilt functions and back-doors provided in modern aircraft -- especially Boeing
variants for the obvious reasons.
Full-spectrum dominance (control when needed) has a meaning.
The IT technology for running total virtual computing systems were in commercial use in
the 1970s.
[e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)]
Today's modern commercial aircraft are almost entirely software driven and therefore simply
another virtual
machine. Flight simulators clearly operate on this principle.
I would suggest that MH370 night flight was more likely the class case study with a tribe
of top Chinese technologists being
re-routed on a flight out of Malaysia to "Paradise Island" (Diego Garcia) before the plane
was either ditched into the Indian
Ocean or re-cycled as a convenient relabeled option etc. In fact, from memory there were
several interesting scenarios around
MH17 that included cadavers and other features. I'm not sure where these ended up in the
wash.
The point being that unless there is something out the window in the real world to verify
against (like position of sun etc)
then I'm sure for military purposes a large airliner could be totally enclosed in a virtual
world simulation from the crew and
passenger perspective -- and quite possibly also satellite tracking for engine monitoring by
suppliers.
Before MH370 and MH17 Malaysia was being rather difficult and independent (and critical of
the Occupation of Palestine).
Apart from the geopolitical impacts, just the subsequent commercial impact on Malaysian
Airlines brought a rather
sudden silence, compliance and silence from the Malaysian quarter. And here we are again,
perhaps, simply a new cast of
actors as victims etc.
It is correct that the FAA ban relates to the region and not just Tehran (FIR Tehran). I had
checked that after my comment. It is still pointing to the fact that, as confirmed by
statements by Iran, that there was a lot of movement in the airspace around Iran and possibly
in Iran, and that civilian planes could be affected by misidentification - just the way it
happened, but with almost 150 Iranians on board of the plane (some with dual citizenships).
In my view, it is not feasible to assume the US did not respond to the Iranian strikes. The
US hit hard and fast, just as Trump had said. The US outmaneuvered Iran from an angle they
were not prepared for, right inside Iran, right in Tehran. The US come out of this clean. The
lack of an overt response to the Iranian strikes can't be emphasized enough; same goes for
the involvement of the CIA with Pompeo and Haspel.
Iran has been seduced by Trump and the illusory promise of symbolic actions/theatre. Iran
has lost the phony war because it failed to see the US is not just a unwelcome visitor that
will leave the Middle East when they are made to feel uncomfortable. The US cannot leave
the Middle East because it would destroy itself if it did so.
I don't agree with your first proposition. I don't even think it is possible for Iran to
have any illusions as to what they are up against militarily or the idiocy and malevolence of
the USA. They are also aware of the near term chance to fracture the continuity of Trump as
President and hope for a better or vaguely smarter person. If there is symbolism, then the
Iranians made it clear 'this is a slap in the face'. That means an initial gesture of
displeasure or challenge to a duel perhaps. It is not the revenge the Iranians have promised
to extract from the occupying forces of the five eyes plus NATO plus Saudi sponsored ISIS. I
anticipate there will soon be stage two of the vengeance extraction.
The USA will leave the Middle East either in tatters or with a smart withdrawal. The
battlefield has just enlarged and entered new and murderous dimensions (thanks mainly to the
assassination strategy of the USA) much as it did in Vietnam after the French were
slaughtered at Dien Bien Phu. This will take some time to play out and there may be no victor
but there will be a withdrawal of the USA.
You say the USA cannot withdraw due to its dependence on petrodollar cover of its
currency. I say it has very little choice. The entire Shia and even perhaps some mighty angry
Sunni are keen to kick the USA cadaver about the public square.
Osama Bin Laden was Sunni!! The forces of the USA are diustributed throughout the Sunni
lands at their invitation ;- the USA occupies Sunni holy lands: this from NEO-
As of now, the US has 5,000 troops in the UAE; 7,000 in Bahrain; above 13,000 in Kuwait;
3,00o in Jordan; 3,000 in Saudi Arabia; 10,000 in Qatar; 5,000 in Iraq; around 1,000 in
Syria -- all of course well within the range of Iranian missiles, making them an extremely
attractive targets for the Iranian forces.
Only in Iraq, about 5,000 US troops could very well be sitting ducks if the Popular
Mobilisation Forces were to launch a war of attrition. If history is any guide to future,
it might be unrealistic to completely rule out a replay of the 1983 Beirut barracks
bombings
The USA can huff and puff as much as it likes but I suspect they will be displeased and
shaken shitless if a couple of the vessels docked in Bahrain only a few kilometers from Iran
suddenly are sitting on the seabed.
What is revenge ADKC? What if the new leader of Oman is persuaded to end the invasion of
Yemen? This could leave the USA badly shaken. There is no certainty that the long war of
revenge will produce good results for Iran but any other course would be craven surrender to
both the USA and its Sunni running dogs and the Israeli paper tiger.
A shadowy tech firm with deep ties to Israeli intelligence and newly inked contracts to
protect Pentagon computers is partnering with Lockheed Martin to gain unprecedented access to
the heart of America's democracy.
There is the possibility of the uninterruptible auto pilot. It does exist but information
on if
it is installed in many Boeing planes is vague. Others here have mentioned the number of
incidents
Boeing aircraft have been involved in. I had thought of MH17 and MH370 but there is also 9 11
and
the Korean flight into soviet airspace. Many of the boeing aircraft are mechanical with
hydraulic
assist controls so it would require something like the uninterruptible auto pilot to
completely
take over the plane from the ground.
The Ukrainian NG has the mechanical controls, but its engines are computer controlled as are
some other
functions in the aircraft plus I believe the aircraft has an automated data link back to
boeing. This may
well have been sufficient for Boeing to turn of the Transponder and cut an engine so the
plane would turn
towards the military site. This would be more than sufficient to ensure the downing of the
aircraft under
the circumstances.
With an engine down the pilot would have immediately notified air traffic control and say he
was turning back.
This would also explain why the Iranian government were initially certain the crash was due
to technical issues.
Israel wants the US to take out any Iranian nuclear programme. The escalation needed for
such a hit was the only way to do that for Trump. Congress would never approve.
My guess is that Bushehr strikes failed to make an impression whatever they were intended
to hit, so it is back to regime change.
If it could ever be proven that Boeing planes are being used as RC weaponized drones, the
fallout would be epic.
Posted by: Sorghum | Jan 11 2020 23:18 utc | 312
No. It is enough to prove than one can switch off the transponder from a remote
place. I have told in case you fly some aircraft over Germany and switch off the
transponder it would take 2 minutes till you accompanied by a fighter jet.
Boeing's "uninterruptible" autopilot "would be activated ... remotely via radio or satellite
links by government agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency."
Not sure how long this lasts before someone messes it up with a mile long link. Why b does
not delete comments that disrupt the formatting is a good question.
In any event Iran played right into the US -Israeli hands. They should not have responded.
I said at the outset they would be smart not to. They simply should have followed protocol
under international law (feeble and futile as it would be). They accomplished nothing with
their missiles and showed weakness (30% missed or were duds) If they felt the need to
retaliate it should have been a covert op that provided plausible deniability.
I'm still baffled at the airline shoot down. Radar should have shown that the Boeing 737
was on a commonly used flight path heading away from the airport -- if it was inbound into
the country it would be easier to explain misidentification . The Boeing 737 should have been
transmitting a transponder identification code. If the equipment that picks that up, called
an IFF interrogator, was malfunctioning, battery operators would have considered the path and
speed of the plane on radar. The Flight was rising toward 8,000 feet at a leisurely 275 knots
when flight tracking data from its transponder cut out, a normal profile for an airliner. So
it is departing the area, climbing through medium altitude, not trying to hide its signature,
looking like a routine operation and its shot down?
I'd say if they shot this plane down they are a mess and that perhaps there are some
disloyal elements within the military who might want change and seized the opportunity to
make them look bad. Sanctions take a toll on moral and support of the people. Thats the
intention. Maybe its working.
I am sure the US and Israel will be ready to jump in and help restore peace and help with
reconstruction after the coming revolution. That wont be cheap so we (they) will have to get
50% of the oil/gas, and maybe a Trump Tower in Tehran (after he leaves office).
The Iranian "slap in The face" was effectively arranged with the US. What does that
mean?
The assassination of Soliemani was not a stupid irrational act - it was a warning to Iran,
Iraq and Iran that there will be no rapproachment. What does that mean for the likelihood of
Oman taking a stand against US interests?
You dismiss the petrodollar as it if has no real bearing, but it is everything - without
the petrodollar the US crumbles. And, what you also fail to realise is that the US cannot
extract itself from the petrodollar therefore it US trapped and compelled to to do anything
it can to defend the petrodollar.
Mao the uninterruptible auto pilot in the 21stcenturywire article is for fly by wire
aircraft. Airbus are fly by wire as are some boeing models, but the 737s, apart from engine
controls are not. 737 Max has fly by wire spoilers. On a fly by wire all that is required is
to override or replace pilot input signals into the computer to take control of the flight
controls.
The article speaks of embedded software being the uninterruptible auto pilot.
Nobody is asking questions why didn't Iran close down their airspace if they were expecting
retaliation, perhaps because they needed a human shield in case Americans attacked? And they
were expecting retaliation that is what the IRGC said.
i'm still not sure if some kind of hacking or cyberattack messed up the ability of iranian
defense to respond to the plane. at any rate, the ultimate responsibility lies with the u.s.
and israel who want regime change in iran and have tried to achieve that for decades.
@pretzelattack Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the
Islamic Revolution. Most likely Iranian defenses got hacked, their communications lines were
down, but that does not excuse them for not closing the airspace (perhaps they needed a human
shield in case Americans attacked).
People here writing stuff as if Iran and Russia are like ww2 allies. No they are not, even
Putin said Russia is never going to allied herself with 1 country against another country in
the middle east, that means Putin's Russia is seeking equilibrium in the middle east. It
explains why Russia hesitated (after selling) to deliver the S-300 as agreed to Iran, while
willing to sell S-400 to Iraq. That is because Russia wants the whole Middle East to be able
to defend themselves against USA/Zionists and against each other -- that is equilibrium.
they could have just screwed up, too, dave. that happens in war. that doesn't put them on
some kind of equal footing with the u.s. and israel. iran hasn't attacked any other countries
that i know of, what have they done exactly to topple other governments anywhere?
@pretzelattack On what planet have you been living? Iran has been trying to export their
Islamic revolution throughout the region and elsewhere where there are muslims ever since
1979. Iran has a neo-con and a conservative faction. The neo-cons are radicals who are
seeking worldwide Islamic Revolution, the conservatives want to keep their revolution within
their own borders, it is like Stalin vs Trotsky, Stalin wanted communism in 1 country,
Trotsky wanted world wide revolution.
dave
You have just been spreading shit that it was never delivered. Upgraded S-300 systems were
delivered to Iran as soon as UNSC nuclear related sanctions were lifted.
@pretzelattack No they haven't screwed up, they (Iranian government) denied IRQGC's request
to close down the airspace. Same thing as with Ukraine, Ukraine did not close down their
airspace while they knew beforehand (as has been proven by news articles before the MH17
shootdown) there was a BUK in hands of rebels (if that news is true), the rebels were also
actively shooting down military jets with manpads. Yet the Ukraine did not close down the
airspace, they were using the airliners as human shield as has been proven by the fact their
jets were shadowing the airliners.
"Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the Islamic
Revolution."
1. Which governments was Iran at odds with other than Western colonial stooges working for
Western imperial goals? Which leads to:
2. Any attempted "export" by Iran has been clear-cut self defense against relentlessly
aggressive Western exportation of imperial globalized capitalism. It's even more clear-cut
one-way US/Western aggression than in the case of the Cold War. Iran's 20th century
experiences with Western aggression in all forms is far more than enough to justify anything
they have done in response, which in any event has been relatively very modest.
415
"People here writing stuff as if Iran and Russia are like ww2 allies."
They may not be natural "allies", but they've long had a shared enemy in Western
imperialism in the Mideast. They still have that shared interest, which is becoming
increasingly existential whether Putin or the Iranians want to admit that to themselves or
not. I know this berserker US government. It ain't going home willingly. It's not going to go
gentle into that goodnight.
dave, i didn't say anything about closing down the airspace, although that could be another
screwup; i was talking about shooting down the plane. but since you bring it up, do you have
any evidence they were using planes as human shields, or any evidence about how the airspace
was not closed in the first place? still waiting on the questions of what governments iran
has tried to overthrow and how.
This is infuriating i just receieved an emergency alert regarding the picker nuclear power
plant telling me to watch local media yet cbc news still has no information what happend in
pickering its still wall to wall coverage of ithe iran air crash disaster
@pretzelattack Though nothing compared to what the Americans have been doing, they were
spreading their Islamic ideology throughout the region ever since the Islamic revolution of
1979, by exporting the concept of suicide bombings to the Palestinian areas (Hamas, Islamic
Jihad), their involvement with Yemen where houthi are trying to overthrow their government,
they have been involved in Bosnia. The middle east has seen a Islamic revival thanks to the
Iranians and the Americans who needed an Islamic block against secular and socialist block of
the 3rd world and 2nd world.
"Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the Islamic
Revolution."
There wasn't any export that I was aware of. And certainly not regime change. The only
question was the Shi'a of Iraq, and Sistani rejected the Iranian model of vilayat-i
faqih.
@pretzelattack not closing down airspace while IRGC has asked for it because of possible
retaliation, that to me sounds like their politicians wanted victims at the hands of the
Americans in front of the world (for propaganda purposes). That is the same as in Sarajevo
where Bosnian Muslim government forces placed heavy weaponry in the middle of the heavily
populated city targeting Serb villages/positions around the city. That is classic human
shield against enemy retaliation, also good for propaganda purposes and world opinion in case
the enemy retaliates and creates casualties among civilians. UNPROFOR commander got really
angry at the Bosnian forces and demanded withdrawal of the heavy weaponry from the heavily
populated area, the UNPROFOR commander even threatened to bomb Bosnian Muslim positions
because of this provocation by the Bosnian Muslim government forces.
the yemenis are being slaughtered by the saudis, i don't see the iran aid as regime change.
and the u.s. had a secular block against the socialist world in saddam till they threw him
under the bus. i'm not sure who came up with the idea of suicide bombing, but i don't
associate it specifically with iran. it's just another tactic, no more objectionable than
pushing typing something on a keyboard half a world away and blowing somebody up by drone,
and i don't see how it relates specifically to iran trying to overthrow other governments. i
don't support iran's theocratic leanings, but my impression is that prior to the u.s. and
u.k. deposing mossaddegh iran was more of an inward looking country.
"The middle east has seen a Islamic revival thanks to the Iranians and the Americans who
needed an Islamic block against secular and socialist block of the 3rd world and 2nd
world."
Yes indeed, the Arabs and the Mideast in general originally wanted to go the route of
secular nationalism and only turned to a more religious-oriented movement when the West made
nationalist progress impossible. Islamic radicalism wasn't their first choice. From what I've
read it sounds like Sayyid Qutb originally had less of an audience than my obscure blog. But
they came to realize it was their only effective option.
That, too, is 100% on the West. All fundamentalisms are modern movements of reaction
against the aggression of other movements within modernity, most obviously Western cultural,
economic, military imperialism.
The US drove the Yugoslav firestorm by unilaterally recognizing Bosnian independence while
the UN was still trying to work out a negotiated settlement. The US egged them on by implying
or promising military support. The Bosnians were more like pawns and at any rate certainly
were not Iranian proxies acting in accord with what you allege with zero evidence to be
Iran's aggressive Islamist plan for world domination.
"I'm still baffled at the airline shoot down. Radar should have shown that the Boeing 737
was on a commonly used flight path heading away from the airport -- if it was inbound into
the country it would be easier to explain misidentification."
Look, I'm not in any position to say what did (or did not) happen. And neither is anyone
else outside a very small covert closed group -- and that probably includes the Iranians with
their (allegedly) modern rocket technology and somewhat 19th century thinking and governance
systems.
What I do assume is: any technology that the public finds on the magazine/website du jour
is already out dated by at least one cycle and probably edging into the release for
commercial market phase.
In a previous post I suggested that any virtual software computer system (of which modern
jet airliners are mostly -- with a bit of flying hardware attached) can be, in theory, easily
separated out into an onion-layered virtual operating system environment which, for all
intents and purposes, provides 100% of the simulated environment data/parameters between the
layers and applications. The cybernetic world has run on this in the business world since the
late 20th century. I doubt the military are in catch-up mode -- quite the opposite, I'd
assume.
How do you or I know that what the Iranian 'saw,' or more importantly, thought they saw in
that 10 second 'engineered' gap?
One does not need to go full-spectrum Matrix or SkyNet thinking (just yet) to see where
this is headed. But I raise an eyebrow at any narrow thinking precluding advanced AI
scenarios that synthesis real-world and psychological-world vectors to exploit and manipulate
the situation in focus towards desirable outcomes.
Knowing the Iranian character and worldview, and the religious top-down control culture
and systems of command (and their weaknesses), allows for strategic modelling of scenarios
that, if not directly controlled and created in the virtual 'digital' software world --
probably a few years off yet except in niche environments (hello major MIC supplier Boeing!)
-- then at least in terms of statistical 'swarms' of data that nudge the real world towards
higher probability preferred scenario. Whether Bayesian statistics is relevant or not, there
are advanced options to experiment with.
This cluster-fuck by the Iranian military, set off by an equivalent of 21st century
"Archduke Franz Ferdinand" event is like watching (unfortunately, imo, and only because I
believe a balanced multi-polar world is a safer scenario) a Mexican peasant running after his
hat just blow off his head by a gust of wind. Comical if not so bloody dangerous for the
global geopolitical and economic context.
NK is another case altogether. They have enough nuke or no-nuke (as does Israel
apparently) binary options to be treated with some junk-yard guard dog 'respect'. But the
romantic poets and intellectuals of Tehran (with their 4,000 years of increasingly irrelevant
cultural history) are just being played with like a wounded mouse by a cat.
I had written off the USA in accord with the public narrative until this event. Now I've
sat back and looked at it again and the pattern looks entirely different. Trump or not, this
has coordinated psyops dimensions flashing red all over, imo.
If what I have set out here as a possible (plausible?) scenario is even anywhere near a
reality then Iran (Mullah version) is on the edge of collapse. The people will rise up for
any number of reasons -- but one critical emerging one will be simply utter frustration with
trying to live and work in the modern global world with a state-based ideology suited for the
Crusades of the Middle Ages. Why not just uniform up in 'British Red Coats' with a red cross
labeled "shoot here!" across the heart? [*]
The last item of interest towards this view is the almost hysterical reaction by the US to
Russia's S300/S400/S500... technology expanding into broader markets. I'd suggest, apart from
being high-class radar and missile technology, it is also likely resistant to the digital
manipulation risk that 'sees' a Boeing lilting sideways (and mapping mentally) as a cruise
missile within a critical window of weakness etc. Perhaps one can see behind the Oz wizard
curtain better?
----
[*] - Since 9/11 it has been clear to some in the systems/cybernetics fields that an emerging
'chaos' orientated global governance model was coming into play. The use of the periodic
'shock' is the key. Think defibrillation as the metaphor to keep a certain heart-beat rhythm
going while chaos (systemic fibrillation) reigns -- and is even promoted in some contexts.
The book to read on the theory is "Chaos: Making a New Science" by James Gleick (1987). He
applies/explains the defibrillation principles. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos:_Making_a_New_Science
)
USA has attacked secular Iraq, secular Lybia, they helped Al Qaeda and other Islamists in
their battle against secular governments (Afghanistan), USA (democrats) are in bed with the
Muslim Brotherhood, USA has helped the Muslim Brotherhood and instigated the revolution in
overthrowing the secular/military government of Egypt. USA was involved with the Arab Spring
which targeted secular governments.
Soviet Union and USA both supported Saddam's Iraq against Iran, then USA dumped Saddam
starting in 1991.
Seems to me you need to swot up on the Sunni and Shia.
When you find out the differences come back.
This for instance...
Craig Murray 4th Jan
Quote
The truth of the matter is that if you take every American killed including and since 9/11,
in the resultant Middle East related wars, conflicts and terrorist acts, well over 90% of
them have been killed by Sunni Muslims financed and supported out of Saudi Arabia and its
gulf satellites, and less than 10% of those Americans have been killed by Shia Muslims tied
to Iran.
This is a horribly inconvenient fact for US administrations which, regardless of party, are
beholden to Saudi Arabia and its money. It is, the USA affirms, the Sunnis who are the allies
and the Shias who are the enemy. Yet every journalist or aid worker hostage who has been
horribly beheaded or otherwise executed has been murdered by a Sunni, every jihadist
terrorist attack in the USA itself, including 9/11, has been exclusively Sunni, the Benghazi
attack was by Sunnis, Isil are Sunni, Al Nusra are Sunni, the Taliban are Sunni and the vast
majority of US troops killed in the region are killed by Sunnis.
Precisely which are these hundreds of deaths for which the Shia forces of Soleimani were
responsible? Is there a list? It is of course a simple lie. Its tenuous connection with truth
relates to the Pentagon's estimate – suspiciously upped repeatedly since Iran became
the designated enemy – that back during the invasion of Iraq itself, 83% of US troop
deaths were at the hands of Sunni resistance and 17% of of US troop deaths were at the hands
of Shia resistance, that is 603 troops. All the latter are now lain at the door of Soleimani,
remarkably.
Those were US troops killed in combat during an invasion. The Iraqi Shia militias –
whether Iran backed or not – had every legal right to fight the US invasion. The idea
that the killing of invading American troops was somehow illegal or illegitimate is risible.
Plainly the US propaganda that Soleimani was "responsible for hundreds of American deaths" is
intended, as part of the justification for his murder, to give the impression he was involved
in terrorism, not legitimate combat against invading forces. The idea that the US has the
right to execute those who fight it when it invades is an absolutely stinking abnegation of
the laws of war.
As I understand it, there is very little evidence that Soleimani had active operational
command of Shia militias during the invasion, and in any case to credit him personally with
every American soldier killed is plainly a nonsense. But even if Soleimani had personally
supervised every combat success, these were legitimate acts of war. You cannot simply
assassinate opposing generals who fought you, years after you invade.
@Russ Yes Bosnia was primarily US proxy, Alija Izetbegovic, Bosnian Muslim leader, he staged
a coup with US backing, before he organized the illegal arming of his political party with
illegal weapons, they started the war by attacking Yugoslav forces, Alija Izetbegovic wanted
an Islamic State according to the Iranian revolution (as he had written in his book "Islamic
Declaration"), many Iranian mujahideen (including Solaymani himself) besides famous Al Qaeda
members went to Bosnia to fight (together). The Clinton administration gave the green light
to Iran for their support to the Bosnian Muslims (which also included Sunni Islamic radicals
and known 911 hijackers). Iran is willing to support Sunni terrorists if that is in their
geopolitical interests, just as they supported Sunni radicals in the Palestinian areas
(suicide bombings). Now Iran is enemy with Sunni radicals/terrorists, but Iran always wanted
to unite all Islamic forces against Israel (and Christian world). Russia is seeking
equilibrium in the middle east, Putin does not want to allied himself with 1 country against
another country in the middle east, Russia does not want to allied herself with Iran against
Israel, or the other way around.
No more "whatabout" distraction from Iranian incompetence and guilt. One shootdown at a time.
Iranian officers must be punished, commanders dismissed, compensation offered.
US and other Western crimes are separate, keep them separate.
"It is a mystery to me why the airport was not closed down that night, esp. in view of the
FAA warning that specifically addresses Tehran."
This questions has been asked multiple times by numerous people, b included. Speculation
only, but one possibility is that after the missile strike on the air bases the Iranian
government was expecting a military response from the U.S., perhaps even Shock and Awe Ver 2.
Maybe in that highly tense period somebody high up decided it would be better not to close
the airspace immediately, thinking it would complicate matters for the U.S. And if a civilian
plane did get hit in the cross-fire, the U.S. could be rightfully blamed.
Immediately after this horrific tragedy the leaders of the US Canada Austria Germany Holland
as well as other Western leaders claimed that a missile had brought the plane down sighting
"intelligence." How did the Western leaders know so quickly? Were their intelligence
organizations privy in any way in bringing down the plane? Through hacking air defense radars
or some other high-tech tools?
As the fog of War lifts, as we proceed forward I suspect we will know more. A lot
more.
-That now The Donald comes Twitting in Farsi is the obvious evidence that he does not
manage his Twitter account, but one of his "ideologues", or a CIA agent...I bet Steven
Miller...that nazi disguised in a gentleman suit trying, without success, to constrain his
overwhelming rage againt everybody who do not profess his ideas...
-The regime in Oman will do nothing and will never join the Axis of Resistance, as a
regime which resulted from a coup d´etat supported by the US/UK against its own
father/monarch. We will be dándonos con un canto en los dientes if they remain
somwhow "neutral"...
People who are more worried for their long time made up turbans, who hate getting untidy by
any reason, do not usually take part in any fight, but like to remain as espectators...
That same could be said of the Swiss...who had the entrails to remain neutral during the nazi
carnage, in the voew of all Europe being invaded, destroyed, submitted...hence they are now a
rich country who act mainly as postman of the US...they had never to recover and rebuilt
anything from smithereens as the rest of all....
-@Vintage Red, I join your expression of gratitude to bevin, although had to search for
your numbered comments amongst the sea of trolls, but you notice the clear contrast with
other alleged leftist resident of always ( notice how well they swim here in this sea of
trolls and how they have taken advantage today to be prolific....)
That of bevin would be the common stance of any decent honest leftist, or person, in the
world. The others resident here, who seem part time lefties, they really are not, but
Trotskyite NATOist capitalist imperialist fifth column, the ones who have disintegrated and
dismantled the genuine left in Europe and the whole West with their confussing stances, one
day they say this, the other just the opposite....they criticize, slightly, the US, but then,
at the first opprtunity, fall over any country or people from the resistance field as a
hammer, justifying that way the evil deeds of the US and its cohort of criminal collaborating
governments in Europe and North America.
-I continue finding the Russian stance in all these events shamefully mild, when not
totally absent.
The US and five eyes Orwellian hypocracy is far worse than any suicide attackers - in fact
they now back the majority of them - the destruction a good part of the world in their war of
terror, the humanitarian bombs and right to protect, weapons of mass destruction and vials of
white powder regime changing friend and foe alike... the other day I had the pleasure of
happening to be near a radio and had to listen to MH17 2.0 narrative ad nauseam. When Iran
officials still thought the plane had come down due to technical problems fife new not only
that it was downed by a surface to air missile, but that it was downed with a Tor
missile.
With that it was completely obvious five eyes had pulled off another MH17 stunt.
And now shit head trolls like yourself and garbage man come to infest this site.
Now that Iran admitted downing the plane by mistake, some western journalists are pushing the
narrative that it did it on purpose, and not by accident:
Stephen Bryen is the broken clock who was, for the first time in his life, right about the
cause of the downing of the plane. Now he's riding on this excitement and is going one step
further, echoing Trudeau's accusation one day earlier.
His main point of argument is that it is not possible the Tor operator had "only 6
seconds" to decide.
In the last thread, people who used the "it's too much coincidence" argument won the
debate against all odds.
Now it's time for another "it's too much coincidence" argument: why, of all planes, it was
a Boeing? Why, of all nationalities, it was Ukraine?
If Iran really downed the plane on purpose, then we're in counter-intelligence territory.
The list of the names of the passengers is already out; some people here highlighted the fact
that there were nuclear scientists in it; others highlighted the fact that the Americans can
"mask" the signatures of a Boeing to make it look like a military plane; others got so far as
to speculate about some kind of autopilot from afar. The correct question, though, should be:
what did the Iranians discovered in or about that specific flight of such importance that
they thought it better to publicly admit they downed it "by mistake"?
Yes thats the same message that came with the alert no details on what happend though.
Pickering has a terrible safety record so the government assurances mean very little to me if
they felt this was important enough to send out an emergency warning saying you dont need to
do anything they should at least give some explantion of what happend - as im typing they
send out another emergency alert saying the first alert was sent in error what a bunch of
monkeys what is going on another Hawaii missile drill
vk "what did the Iranians discovered in or about that specific flight of such importance that
they thought it better to publicly admit they downed it "by mistake"
Over the last years, Iran has gone to great pains to do things by the letter of
international law. It has top quality diplomats and statesmen like Zarif. It wishes to trade
with the world, be accepted by the world while retaining sovereignty and way of life. IT
complied with the original stipulation of the nuke deal for a year after US pulled out, and
with the introductions of US sanctions, European countries pulled out of deals and trade with
Iran. Even now Iran is still within the terms of the nuke deal as the are stipulations on
what can be done if a party pulls out or does not abide by the deal.
Iranian government for the first day or so where sure the plane had come down due to
technical problems. When they found it had been shot down as their enemies were saying, it
was a major blow. Those few days of denying it had been shot down undone much of the
painstaking diplomatic work they had accomplished over a decade or so.
Also on the military side, Iranian military have proven to be very professional and high
tech, but this shootdown will be used against them to try and show incompetence as many of
the trolls here are doing.
"Ukraine did not close down the airspace, they were using the airliners as human shield as
has been proven by the fact their jets were shadowing the airliners."
If we accept your view then we must accept that this was an intended win/win situation for
Ukraine; Ukraine could use civilian aircraft for cover and, also, induce the rebels to shoot
down a civilian aircraft. (I have a different view of MH17 but it would be OT to go
into).
The MH17 scenario that you describe can only be comparable to Iranian shooting down PS752
if the US used similar tactics (presumably by use of electronic warfare) in order to induce
Iran to shoot down PS752...
...or is it that your posts are full of fact-free, poorly researched whataboutism that
should just be disregarded by any thinking person?
vk @444 asks the correct question? Perhaps, Iran know much more but a pre-requisite is
that they must take responsibility for what they did - shooting down PS752) - and, perhaps,
this is not what the US/west expected Iran to do? How would Iran know? Perhaps, Russian
monitoring of US EW activity has revealed much more than the US expected? And, perhaps,
Russia will not agree to any public relevation at present?
To your list of Sunni terrorists´ victims, add all those resulting from terrorist
attacks in Europe in the last years, by, then discovered, suspciously Sunni extremists
related to mosques and mullahs funde by KSA for long time old known of the security services
of any European country which has suffered these terrorist attacks....
Everybody a bit informed and their dogs knows by now that all these attacks were made to
create "shock and awe" amongst the gullible population to jusitify European intevention in
the illegal wars on Lybia, Syria and Iraq....What the gullible population do not know is that
their governments were allying in all those invaded and slaughtered countries the same Sunni
extremist terrorist who have slaughtered their own population in Europe, and not only, but
morevoer they gave them prizes... like with the case of the UK MI6 founded/funded/trained
White Helmets of HM...
There is a lot of tin hat conspiracy theorising in this thread (1) centred on an alleged FAA
ban on US flights over "Tehran", and (2) that the Ukraine flight allegedly turned back to the
airport before being hit by the missile.
The nonesense over the alleged FAA ban on US flights over "Tehran" has thankfully already
been dealt with by the posting of the full text of the NOTAMs: the FAA ban, which applied
only to US aircraft, was for all US flights in the whole of Iran airspace and the whole of
Iraq airspace. Such a ban is fully to be expected in view of recent US military actions.
As regards the alleged turn of the aircraft. The
Flightradar24 site shows the actual path of the Ukraine flight up to the point the
transponder signals ceased (the point where the missile hit), and compare it both with the
other 9 flights from Tehran that morning, and with the previous 45 scheduled flights by
PS752. It is crystal clear that the only turn the aircraft made up to the point it was hit
was 100% in line with it's scheduled flight plan. The only difference that could be drawn is
that in terms of angle of climb it was well below average - almost but not quite the lowest
of the 45 flights - because the aircraft was way overweight and therefore had difficulty
climbing even on full power. The pilot Peter Haisenko
wrote in detail about that. The turn, however, (up to the end of transponder
transmissions) was only about 50 degrees, and was completely in line with other flights. The
turn was also completed well before the missile hit - when the missile hit it was already
established on straight and level flight.
The video of the Aerospace Commander's presentation shows a very sketchy hand-drawn
diagram which is not to scale, with an exaggerated turn (but still depicted as less than the
claimed 90 degrees). However the Aerospace Commander's sketch and the Flightradar24 charts
are wholly in agreement despite the very inaccurate sketch - this is clear from the locality
map given by Flightplan24, and further down the page the elevation plan, which shows the
topography in 3-D.
In the latter picture you can clearly see the mountains in the background, and two smaller
pointed hills in the foreground. From the video it is clear that the air defence base was at
the top of the second (further) of these small hills, obviously utilising the high ground for
the defence of Tehran. Virtually all the flights shown by Flightradar24 first start to turn
at exactly the same point - level with the first hill - and turn towards a path going
immediately to the left of the second hill where the air defence is mounted. This means that
immediately on completion of the turn, all these flights would be pointing nearly directly at
the air defence base, exactly as shown on the commander's sketch (except that the latter
exaggerated somewhat the angle of turn). Comparing the map with the 3-D view this can be seen
quite clearly.
This does not say anything about whether there was a turn after being hit - if the missile
hit one engine this would automatically cause the aircraft to turn unless compensated for by
the pilots, who may have been already dead - that is irrelevant to this issue.
I do share the gut feeling that the incident may have been set-up by the US, because there
are a lot of grounds for suspicion, but as far as I know there is no concrete evidence in the
public domain in support of that suspicion at this stage - certainly not in terms of an
unusual turn before being hit by the missile.
Grounds for the Iranians to believe they had detected cruise missiles are likely very
strong - the US uses electronic warfare measures (see the link posted by Peter AU) which
cause the Iranian radar to see phantom images of moving objects. Many US aircraft were moving
around the outside(??) of Iranian airspace, presumably creating these phantom radar images of
cruise missiles, therefore the Iranians would presumably have "seen" these suspected cruise
missiles in the border regions, assumed they then penetrated Iranian territory unseen by
hugging the ground through the mountains, in which case they could suddenly appear
subsequently at some stage where radar can detect them.
The fact that the plane was brought down because of the conflict initiated by Trump makes
everything about it very suspicious. Just because Iran states that it is responsible does not
disqualify the possibility that they were not made to make this mistake. We do not know the
facts as to what the Iranian defense system saw as that Ukrainian plane was flying.
I continue to be highly suspicious of the fact that it is a Ukrainian plane. Ukraine is
firmly in the Anglo-Zionist camp, period. Zelensky or not the deal was sealed when V. Nuland
finished her work in Kiev. The only reason Ukraine made a deal with Russia is because it is
in financial trouble and needs revenue. The West will not keep it afloat. So thinking that
suddenly it is conducting its own foreign policy is incorrect.
As an aside. Does a sovereign country bring in a man like this to help it run its country
?
Mikheil Saakashvili - born 21 December 1967) is a Georgian and Ukrainian politician.[7][8]
He was the third President of Georgia for two consecutive terms from 25 January 2004 to 17
November 2013. From May 2015 until November 2016, Saakashvili was the Governor of Ukraine's
Odessa Oblast.[1][9][10] He is the founder and former chairman of the United National
Movement party.
How about this one,
Natalie Ann Jaresko is an American-born Ukrainian investment banker who served as Ukraine's
Minister of Finance from December 2014 until April 2016.[1] In 20 March 2017, she was
appointed as executive director of the Financial Oversight & Management Board for
Puerto Rico.
or this one,
Aivaras Abromavičius is a Lithuanian-born Ukrainian investment banker and politician.
On 31 August 2019 Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky appointed Abromavičius the
Director General of Ukroboronprom.[1] Previously he was Ukraine's Minister of Economy and
Trade starting in December 2014 (Abromavičius announced his resignation on 3 February
2016). He did not retain his post in the Groysman Government that was installed in 14 April
2016.[2]
Ukraine is a Captured State.
Thus the possibility exists that that plane may have had some equipment placed in it in
Kiev that could trick the Iranian Defense system to think a craft is a danger to it. Kiev
would have been a safe place to do it (reasons above). If this were true does anyone here
believe that announcing this fact Public opinion would believe it ? I for one don't. Russia
knows how that worked out with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). No matter what Iran would
have said that would have been spun in the West as attempting to blame someone else. Thanks
to this all attention in the Media would have been on Iran which Trump would have loved.
Again, Russia knows how this was played out in Malaysia MH17 case. The average CNN viewer in
that case would not see how the BUKA Russian was being used as evidence that it was Russia
that shot the plane down.
Iran did the right thing in admitted that it was responsible whether it was their fault
or not. There was simply no way to win in the case of having being fooled into
shooting the plane down.
The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came
down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when
the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe
this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes.
Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran
speech.
Iran deserves respect, if only because it openly and honestly admitted its responsibility for
what happened. This shows the maturity and courage of the political and military leadership
of this country.
It is clear that the plane was shot down unintentionally. It is also obvious that Iran was
provoked by the actions of the United States.
This is called life. That happens. And not only that. Human factor. We cannot avoid this
and 100% eliminate all risks.
In 1914, an idiot killed a monarch, which led to a large-scale war and the death of
millions of people. Human factor. Soldiers accidentally make the wrong buttons. Workers at an
oil factory smoke in the wrong place, resulting in huge fires. People do not notice an
extinct burner on a gas stove, resulting in an explosion, collapse of the house and death of
people. Vacationers tourists did not extinguish after themselves a fire in the forest, as a
result of which a giant fire covers thousands of hectares of territory. During the invasion
of Iraq in 2003, American Patriot systems destroyed a friendly British Tornado fighter bomber
(in addition to the destroyed American fighters). In February 2017, the Russian Aerospace
Forces mistakenly attacked the Turkish military in northern Syria. In 2001, Ukrainian air
defense, conducting military exercises, shot down a Russian passenger plane TU-154 over the
Black Sea, 78 people died. So on and so on... The technique and equipment is imperfect.
People all the more.
The Iranian situation is very similar to what happened in September 2018. Syrian air
defense shot down a Russian military plane, provoked by deliberate actions by Israeli
aviation. Just to remind that the Russian side has made it clear who is the true culprit of
the tragedy. In the case of Iran, the same thing. It is one thing if the plane crashes as a
result of a pilot error or a technical malfunction. But when it is now clear that plane was
shot down, and the Iranian air defense acted as it was provoked by the actions of the United
States, then the guilt of the United States only increases.
Iran bears very little, if any responsibility in this matter.
The United States is entirely to blame-what has occurred is exactly what the
US government was aiming at. It has created an atmosphere of fear and panic
in the knowledge that it would create chaos-that normal government would break down
and mistakes be made.
The US plays with the lives of people. It plays God, a God dedicated to the principle of pure
evil.
It plays with people's lives, the lives of the 'ants' that Harry Lime saw from above
Vienna,
as a matter of course. In Gaza children with cancer cannot get treatment because the US and
Israel
want to make life harder for their parents. The evil objective is to madden the people to the
point
that they will rise up and kill those who oppose the Occupation. In Colombia, Bolivia,
Honduras, Ecuador
and Brazil-even as we speak Death Squads-trained armed and financed-by the US and Israel
stalk those
who want to reform their society. In Venezuela the supply of food and medicine is interrupted
as far as
the power of the US and its allies extends.
Around the world where there are evil deeds being carried out, where children are starving,
medicines are
withheld, protesters are being assassinated and militias are terrorising the population-the
hands of the
United States and its allies are always evident. It was they who imported tens of thousands
of wahhabis
into Afghanistan, Russia, China and the battlegrounds that we all know in order to kill,
frighten and impoverish
the people. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iran, Lebanon and far beyond- all of
them have seen their
living standards diminished, their security removed their hopes of happiness systematically
thwarted.
In order, evil order, to punish them, not for anything that they have done but in the hope
that they will
surrender themselves to the United States and its agents, submit.
The truth is that human history has never seen a regime like that now ruling the United
States and attempting
to rule the world. Nothing compares with it, the Nazis were simply malicious pygmies in
comparison.
Many people from Trudeau to posters here refuse to admit what is crystal clear and what
history will
confirm: all the deaths that come, daily, weekly, yearly from this assumption by the United
States of
prerogatives, religion reserves for God; all the deaths that come from this juvenile playing
with the lives of
ordinary people are entirely the choice of the US government.
Trudeau bears more responsibility for the deaths of these airline passengers than anyone in
Iran. It was his choice to
keep the Embassy doors closed, to withdraw diplomatic representation and to join the US in
its sanctions
against the Iranian people. He has made the same choice in Venezuela, where similar accidents
may occur (have occurred
as in the sabotage of the power grid). People died then, people die daily and they do so
because of choices made by
governments playing with the lives of the people.
Everyone of the victims would be alive today had not the mafia in Washington decided to smash
up their society.
And they would almost certainly have been alive still had Trudeau and Freeland-and the four
parties in Ottawa- done
, what most Canadians want them to do and disassociate themselves and Canada from the evil
games Washington plays.
I hope that no Iranian is tricked into surrendering to evil. I hope that the tone of the
Revolutionary Guards-one
of sincere regret and manly apology- does not inform their future moves which must be to
re-double their commitment
to the defence of their country and the defeat of the most evil government the world has ever
seen.
Re: Trudeau's escalating attempts at scene-stealing
The odious, opportunistic popinjay Trudeau seems to have calculated that it's time for him
to upgrade his "brand" from "dashing young Bonnie Prince Justin" to "Mature Statesman with
Gravitas".
Thus, his predilection for elbowing his way to the head of the Western Hegemony Official
Spokesperson line and bumptiously blowing off his big bazoo.
The new beard is a "tell"; some men, especially handsome but "baby-faced" men, are
susceptible to an abiding adolescent impulse to grow facial hair in order to appear more
mature. It can't be a coincidence that Trudeau's beard correlates with his increased penchant
for making (fatuous) bold and aggressive pronouncements on geopolitical crises.
I know that Trudeau has a pedigree that nominally puts him in the top drawer of Canada's
political aristocracy. Still, he reminds me a lot of the Venezuelan golpista
boy-toy Juan "Random Guy" Guaidó.
Prometheus - Thank you for your information. I previously thought the transponder signal
would identify the plane as a civilian aircraft but one question remains for me: even without
IFF would the airtraffic control not (verify the identity)and be in contact with the pilot
when the course is changed? Is there no coordination between civlian and military
air-control? (especially in such a tense situation)
(the Ukrainain plane turned around - why?)
Still ...despite the admission it is strange that an aviation expert like Peter Haisenko
(retired Lufthansa pilot with special technical knowledge who knows Tehran airport well) came
to a very different conclusion: (excerpt from German Original - my translation)
Weil mittlerweile bekannt ist, dass die Boeing nach dem ersten Aufprall noch etwa 500 Meter
über den Boden geschrammt ist, darf man davon ausgehen, dass sie in flachem Winkel den
Boden berührt hat, etwa wie bei einer Landung. Sie ist also nicht „ungespitzt"
in den Boden gerammt.
Since it is now known the Boing grazed the ground for about 500 metres after impact it is
reasonable to assume that she touched the ground at a flat-angle, like in a regular landing.
[...]
Das deutet wiederum darauf hin, dass sich die Piloten in ihrer Notlage gar nicht bewusst
waren, wie nahe sie dem Boden bereits sind und völlig unerwartet Bodenkontakt hatten.
[...]
This is an indication that the Pilots were not aware of their emergency (how close to the
ground they were) and unexpectedly touched the ground. [...]
Fest steht wohl, dass die ukrainische Boeing nach dem Start einen Motorschaden hatte. Und
zwar einen soliden, mit Feuer und Totalausfall.
It appears to be certain that the Ukrainian Boeing suffered an engine breakdown after
take-off, a severe one with fire and total failure.
Zunächst stelle ich fest, dass es nahezu unmöglich ist, ein Passagierflugzeug in
dieser Flugphase abzuschießen. Man müsste schon jemanden mit einer kleinen
Boden-Luft-Rakete im erwarteten Abflugkorridor platzieren, der dann dem abfliegenden Jet
die Rakete hinterher schießt. Dieses hitzesuchende Projektil könnte dann einen
Motor treffen, was aber kein zwingender Grund für einen Absturz ist. Mit einem Motor
kann das Flugzeug weiter fliegen, wenn die Rahmenumstände entsprechend aller
Vorschriften gesetzt worden sind. Eine größere, aufwendigere
Flugabwehreinrichtung scheidet für diese Flugphase und den Ort aus. Nicht nur wegen
der geringen Höhe über Grund, sondern auch, weil es solche Anlagen in dieser
Gegend nicht gibt. Wenn, dann befinden sie sich im weiteren Umkreis, um Angriffe aus
größerer Höhe weit vor der Stadt abzuwehren. Warum ist es dann
überhaupt zu dem Absturz gekommen?
Haisenko asserts that " it is nearly impossible to shoot down a passenger plane in this
phase of the flight. In order to do that you'd need to place a (sort of) MANPAD in the
expected flight-corridor and the heat-seaking missile could then destroy one of the
engines.But this does not automatically lead to the crashing of the plane since it is able
to fly with one engine [...] A bigger anti-aircraft system is not suitable for this phase
of the flight ... these systems aim to intercept (destroy) targets flying at much higher
altitutes and farther away from the cities ... So why did the crash happen?
Obviously he wrote that before the Iranian admission was published and with limited
knowledge but still one wonders if electronic warfare played a role and certain parties
wanted that plane to crash ... (at least a closer look at the passenger list seems
advisable)
That is one of the best posts I have ever read and I have read more than a few.
Never a truer word.
If it needed a precis.......
Madeleine Albright.
The deaths of of 500,000 Iraqi children is a price worth paying.
This from a woman who had played a leading role in the destruction of Yugoslavia and the
handing of the Serbian province of Kosovo to the KLA a forerunner of Al Qaeda and ISIS.
Today a narco criminal islamic state - and a base for the bloodletting and birthing of the
European Caliphate.
And unlimited proxies for the USA War Of!! Terror across the Middle East.
Pure evil.
Sadly due to their own incompetence, Iran lost there moral high ground!
A great disappointment to those of us who supported Iran through thick and thin.
The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came
down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when
the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe
this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes.
Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran
speech.
Adding:
This would also explain why this is the first time the US did not respond to a state
attacking US institutions/military bases. The Us, in fact, did respond: "Let this serve as a
WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian
sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very
high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran
itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!"
we have (!) targeted (that must mean there were plans for imminent actions in place, it's
not saying "we will target") Iranian sites, some at a very high level (!), very fast (!) and
very hard.
Their response went horribly wrong. Maybe a US drone was found. Maybe the US jammed
communication systems. It's all speculation but it could be that the US response is the cause
for the shooting down of the plane. It is a mystery to me why the airport was not closed down
that night, esp. in view of the FAA warning that specifically addresses Tehran. The Iranian
civil flights authority should have known about this, or is information of this kind
proprietary, i.e. not shared across countries/systems? The FAA is a lead aviation agency,
it's not as if the aviation agency of Tristan da Cunha had issued such a ban.
The FAA banning US aircraft flying over Tehran after Iran had struck the bases - my gut
tells me the US had planned and were executing a response involving a target in Tehran which
resulted in the plane being targeted by Iranian air defense systems... the jamming of
communication systems (which would have been part of the US response) would be the direct
cause for the plane being targeted. If this is true the US has this blood on their hands, not
Iran. Again, that's why Trump was clearly under the influence of some drugs. Because that
blood is on his hands, or rather, his big mouth and big ego.
...
"Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we
have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many
years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and
those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD."
How would the passenger plane have been accidentally targeted?
That is less clear, but is one of the challenges facing any missile operator. While
military aircraft will plot course to avoid radar, civilian airliners are equipped with
transponders that identify the craft and their flight path set and share it with military
bases in the area.
Theoretically, the Ukrainian Boeing 737-800 should have been identified as a civilian
craft on any radar. But if the Western assessment is true, this incident will join other
tragic incidents of civilian planes being shot down by anti-aircraft weaponry.
In 2014, Malaysia Airline Flight 17 was suspected to have been inadvertently shot down
by Russian missiles, though Moscow has consistently denied any involvement. And in 1988, a
US warship engaging with Iranian gunboats in the Persian Gulf, the USS Vincennes, shot down
an Iranian passenger plane after mistaking it for a jet fighter, killing all 290 people on
board.
They have a nice map of Iran's rocket range. The map explains the Russian attitude towards
Iran which is complex. Iran's rockets do NOT reach the USA but they reach the whole of the
Middle East and a large part of Russia.
To all the smart asses:Yes Iran should have closed the airport but other have some
responsibility too. The Ukraine for example. Allowing planes to fly in to what is practically
a war zone. Not that thei have done it before..
The aircraft was hit when it had turned directly towards the Tor unit, at that point a
turn of nearly ninety degrees which I take it was located at the military site.
"Iranian air defense units have taken inappropriate actions dozens of times, including
firing antiaircraft artillery and scrambling aircraft against unidentified or misidentified
targets," noted a heavily classified Pentagon intelligence report, which added that the
Iranian military's communications were so inadequate and its training deficiencies so
significant that "misidentification of aircraft will continue."
The Ukraine plane was the target and the operation was successfull.
this was the only way US could strike Iran without Iran striking US bases throughout the
regin plus Israel.
When Trump threatened strikes against 52 cultural sites if Iran retaliated for the killing of
Soleimani, Iran said Isreal would also be hit (it has been noticeable US and Isreal have
beeing trying pass of US as threatening Iran as indipendent of Isreal).
This is when the Trump admin and Israel would have settled on the takedown of a civian
craftby Iran air defence. This makes Iran look fools in the eyes of fools as has occurred
here and not the highly professional force they truly are.
Iranians have gathered in the streets of Tehran to demand the resignation of Ayatollah
Seyed Ali Khamenei after the regime admitted it had mistakenly shot down a civilian
passenger plane.
Angry crowds gathered on Saturday night in at least four locations in Tehran, chanting
'death to liars' and calling for the country's supreme leader to step down over the tragic
military blunder, video from the scene shows.
What began as mournful vigils for Iranian lives lost on the flight soon turned to
outrage and protest against the regime, and riot police quickly cracked down, firing tear
gas into the crowd.
'Death to the Islamic Republic' protesters chanted, as the regime's security forces
allegedly used ambulances to sneak heavily armed paramilitary police into the middle of
crowds to disperse the demonstration.
I don't blame the Iranians protesting the unnecessary deaths of their compatriots through
sheer incompetence and lack of coordination among civil and military officials. They clearly
should have grounded all commercial flights. Their air defense units should have at least the
basic ability to discern between a commercial jet and military aircraft & missiles. If
they are this incompetent or their systems are so poor how do they expect to withstand the
onslaught of an air attack by the US that would include thousands of missiles and thousands
of sorties a day! Tehran will be flattened.
We agree that there was a US response, and that the plane was involved in this response.
You think it was the idea from the beginning to trick Iranian air defense into shooting this
particular plane down, I think there was a different target and things did not go according
to plan, while the plane played a role. Both of us are speculating. You think the operation
was successful, I say no, things went wrong. The US could not continue with their operation
as this would have made it obvious they had utilized the plane in some way. It's different
from the incident where Syria shot down a Russian military plane when Israeli jets used it as
cover - this here was a civilian plane. So, speculation from my side.
It's also to be observed that 146 people on the plane were Iranian citizens; this could
speak for your theory as this is a problem for the government of Iran (protests)
("One-hundred forty-six victims held Iranian passport, ten Afghan, five Canadian, four Swede
and two Ukrainian. All nine crew members consisting of three cockpit crew and six cabin crew
were Ukrainian. Note: A number of victims could have had multiple nationalities, so other
news reports might introduce them with different nationalities than the ones in this report.
The above list concerns the passport with which they left the Islamic Republic of Iran air
border.")
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Iran-CAO-PS752-Initial-Report.pdf
I have no means to know. I am sure, though, that the big mouthed announcement of Trump is
real. There was a response. I hope the dams won't hold for this one.
Various MSM have stories of victims. The British and Canadian victims I saw in these
articles all had Iranian names. Students expats ect returning to Iran for a visit.
One couple to get married in Iran.
Seemed to be a large number of university students including a couple of professors.
Regarding the FAA NOTAMS restricting airspace a list is provided
here . It is not accurate to claim only Tehran was restricted:
KICZ A0001/20 - SECURITY..UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT PROHIBITION AGAINST CERTAIN
FLIGHTS IN THE BAGHDAD FLIGHT INFORMATON REGION (FIR)
(ORBB) - 07 JAN 23:45 2020 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 07 JAN 23:49 2020
KICZ A0002/20 - SECURITY..UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT PROHIBITION AGAINST CERTAIN
FLIGHTS IN THE TEHRAN FLIGHT INFORMATON REGION (FIR) (OIIX) - 08 JAN 00:10 2020 UNTIL PERM.
CREATED: 08 JAN 00:07 2020
Notice these cover national airspace, it is not limited to the cities they refer to. The
timezones are UTC.
Well Israel and neocons sure have a good laugh how well it turned out for them past week. Not
sure how Iran will be able to get back from this anytime soon, now being attacked both from
abroad and internally. Not to mention the collaboration between protesters and the west.
This site and its comments have been an unfortunate repository of ridiculous, reflexive
anti-American nonsense over the past few weeks. The speculation about the flight, and
inability to accept Iranian responsibility, was one of the more silly charades.
Posted by: Daniel Lennon | Jan 11 2020 16:46 utc | 185
I would add anti-Semitic too....
In my own country can't criticise Mossad actions on the news.. it would be anti-Semitic
too...
So here what came from a Forbes article that helped uncover a huge Mossad Operation
targeting Cyprus Larnaka airport (their Cypriot allies)
The 2 "ex" agents identified is only probably the tip of the proverbial iceberg...
9.5 million smart phones it is estimated were hacked by the Mossad Stingray like tech
discuised as plain ambulances alone in Larnaka air port during the time of the operation.
This is looking to be a very complex operation the US and five eyes is pulling off. Rather
than simply reacting to events after the killing of Soleimani, the killing was inteded to set
up circumstances to induce Iran into firing at a civilian aircraft. The act of war in killing
the Iranian military official and diplomat followed by threats against Iranian cultural
sites. With Iran air dfences on high alert, all it required was to cut air defence coms and
turn an aircraft at the same time. Once that is aclomplashed, making Iran look incompetent in
the eyes of the world it is straight into the pre-organised regime change operation.
I hope Russia and China will be giving Iran a bit of an assist in this because they are
facing a very dangerous moment. Anything can happen now that US thinks it has Iran on the
backfoot. And I think Iran is on the backfoot at the moment. What has happened has shocked
them. Zarif and others, saying the plane definitely was not shot down and then realising they
were wrong.
Very dangerous period for Iran as US will now press its attack harder, and perhaps in more
unexpected ways. Hopefully the crew that fired will not be punished because of this. If they
are, air defense crew will be hesitant to make decisions anytime their coms are cut.
The IRGC said they had asked for all flights to be grounded but the request was not acted on.
This is the area hopefully the Iranian investigation will focus on.
VK "Right after the assassination of Soleimani, Pompeo went publicly and said Iran was "one
step closer to regime change""
The Assassination was the first step. Trump threats against Iran cultural sites the second
step. Iran retaliation against the US bases the third step. Downing the civilian aircraft
step four. And guess what... regime change operation kicks into gear.
But for Trump's murder of Soleimani, the Iranians would not have been so jumpy.
Trump's murder of Soleimani, was a significant factor in making the Iranians jumpy.
These deaths go on Trump's death count card along with all the dead in Syria.
So they warned Americans about incoming missile strikes, but did not cancel passenger
flights... "As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to attack on American bases,
it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground flights following the
attack."
Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian flights
were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also night
take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . .
Notable quotes:
"... To let the civilians planes to flight while expecting they could have an US retaliation is a big mistake, because, as the Israeli did in the shooting-down of the IL-20 in Syria, the US plane could choose to be "radar-shadowed" by the civilians planes and use the civilians planes as shields before bomb the Iranian targets ..."
"... They should have grounded all commercial flights. Really, Really dumb on Iran's part. And I see the saker has been mum on the whole affair. ..."
"... It definitely shoots some holes in his propping up of the Iranian military/government to show how ready and focused they are for an American invasion. ..."
"... Why did the US keep info under wraps in the intelligence briefing to members U.S. Congress ... afterwards they specifically said there was. NO intelligence Ukraine airliner was shot down ... lots to learn for all. Not following the Putin playbook. Or other cover-ups like NATO downing an Italian passenger jet near Ithaca. Ukraine themselves have accidentally shot down a Siberian airliner by exercises above the Black Sea. ..."
"... Pretty hard to believe an accident this stupid. Sorry. ..."
The Iranian Armed Forces General Staff just
admitted (in Farsi,
English translation ) that its air defenses inadvertently shot down the Ukrainian
flight PS 752 shortly after it took off on January 8 in Tehran :
2- In early hours after the missile attack [on US' Ain al-Assad base in Iraq], the
military flights of the US' terrorist forces had increased around the country. The
Iranian defence units received news of witnessing flying targets moving towards Iran's
strategic centres, and then several targets were observed in some [Iranian] radars, which
incited further sensitivity at the Air Defence units.
3- Under such sensitive and critical circumstances, the Ukrainian airline's Flight
PS752 took off from Imam Khomeini Airport, and when turning around, it approached a
sensitive military site of the IRGC, taking the shape and altitude of a hostile target.
In such conditions, due to human error and in an unintentional move, the airplane was hit
[by the Air Defence], which caused the martyrdom of a number of our compatriots and the
deaths of several foreign nationals.
4- The General Staff of the Armed Forces offers condolences and expresses sympathy
with the bereaved families of the Iranian and foreign victims, and apologizes for the
human error. It also gives full assurances that it will make major revision in the
operational procedures of its armed forces in order to make impossible the recurrence of
such errors. It will also immediately hand over the culprits to the Judicial Organization
of the Armed Forces for prosecution.
To let the civilians planes to flight while expecting they could have an US
retaliation is a big mistake, because, as the Israeli did in the shooting-down of the IL-20
in Syria, the US plane could choose to be "radar-shadowed" by the civilians planes and use
the civilians planes as shields before bomb the Iranian targets
At the very least, it does show us that anxieties were running very high that
evening/early morning with no "in-the-know" arrangement for how the deescalation was going
to pan out.
They should have grounded all commercial flights. Really, Really dumb on Iran's
part. And I see the saker has been mum on the whole affair.
It definitely shoots some holes in his propping up of the Iranian
military/government to show how ready and focused they are for an American
invasion.
Sadly due to their own incompetence, Iran lost there moral high ground!
A great disappointment to those of us who supported Iran through thick and thin.
So much for engine malfunction. fives eyes said it was a missile so I thought it would have
been their proxies like Ukraine, but not the case this time. Downing the drone firing only
one missile, precision strikes on the US base... shit happens especially when the US and
five eyes are involved and creating the fog of war. Hope it doesn't make the Iranians
hesitate when they next need to fire one.
Yes, why didn't Iran ground all commercial flights while there was hostilities and the
potential for reprisal missile and air attacks? Their air defenses can't be that good if
they can't distinguish between a commercial jet and a military jet.
Indeed does not bode well in the event of war with the US which would destroy much of
Iran.
For the trolls currently infesting this site - Iraq, a relatively small country when it
comes to superpowers has been successfully fending off the US for fourty years. Fourty
years when they could be attacked by the US at any time. They have developed their own air
defences plus high tech missiles that accurately hit a US base within an Iraqi base. Trump
is intent on destroying Iran. The US regime wouldn't hesitate to use a civilian plane to
try and penetrate Iran's defences. US is as culpable of this downing as was the crew of the
US ship that far from home and on Iran's doorstep downed the Iranian passenger jet.
Well. Looks like Iran will have to lay low for awhile or at least until the US starts the
war for real. Not necessarily a bad thing?
At least the victims families get some closure. Iran should propose that some of their
frozen assets be released to pay restitution.
The downing of the plane probably helped avoid an American retaliation for the missile
strikes.
Iran cleared up the crash site where the passenger jet came down and before admitting its
responsibility on Friday, said it wanted to handle the black box data itself.
The debris of the Boeing 737 has been removed from the crash site near Tehran
before Ukrainian investigators have even arrived , sparking fears of a cover-up.
It was a dead giveaway yesterday when Iran started clearing the debris from the crash
site before any independent investigators arrived. When you add that to video that showed
the Ukranian airliner exploding in the air, it would have indicated a decent probability
that Iran was hiding something. But....most everyone in the earlier threads on the downing
of the jet were finding all kinds of excuses why it couldn't have been an Iranian air
defense missile.
Yes this is a horrible tragedy and I wish Iran had grounded all flights until they were
certain all was clear. But in real life accidents and mistakes happen, sometimes very
tragic and costly.
But all this talk of Iranian 'incompetence' and 'loss of moral high ground' is utter
nonesense.
Iran handled this tragic mistake about as well as anyone could. Indeed far better than
many others have. Especially when you consider that they knew that their enemies would use
everything in an inform8war against them. Given the circumstances, Iran handled the
aftermath as well as possible. 'Why did it take Iran so long to admit it?' Well, 'so long'
is 3 days. And even before that, they invited experts from Boeing and even the NTSB to help
with the investinvestigation.
And now those who wished to use this incident against Iran are stuck. What can they say?
The US making a fuss about it will only offer an opportunity to remind everyone of IA655.
Iran has already admitted it and apologized. Not much more to use.
And none of this changes the fact that Iran is the only country to openly retaliate
against the US military and have the US back down.
The following link has interesting info about some of the people killed in the Ukrainian
flight PS 752. Originally, I wasn't going to mention this article because in it it said
"...A crash which US authorities are now saying was caused by Iran's own missile defence
systems. An explanation which Iran seems to be accepting for the moment. ..." but as that
seems to be the case. This tragic shootdown will make Russia cautious in supplying Iran
with missiles.
My Ship was headed to the Gulf on the Monday after the Friday Vincennes Incident.
I was in my Homeport in Japan that Evening. Spent Supper and Watched Music Videos at the
Officers' Club. As I got off my Bike at the Pier - an Associate told me that We shot down
an Iranian F-14.
We already had Skirmishes the Previous Summer with the USS Stark, which Kicked Off the
Naval Convoys of Operation Earnest Will.
We know that the IRNians were harassing the Vincennes with their Gunboats. The Vincennes
were told to leave the Area several times afterwards; but Disobeyed - Seeking to Destroy.
The Air Warfare Team were hell bent on the Hunt, they Deluded Themselves to believe that a
Hostile Aircraft was approaching. With no Comms/Responses and no one checking Commercial
Flight Paths, they Shot Down the Airliner.
I confirmed this with the Officer leading the Anti Surface Team on the Vincennes that
Day - when I met him during an MBA Prospective Tour at Harvard years later.
Human Error - Rushed Judgement. Now we need to see if the Aircraft did Deviate from the
Path / Warnings+Comms were ongoing - and to see if it wasn't a Cover for Intel Photo Ops
over the Base.
The United States KNEW about the tragic event from the moment it happened. Military
satellites in the sky can make sharper photo's than reporters on the ground of the crash
site. The intelligence was shared with 5 Eyes plus ... incl. at least Israel and The
Netherlands (PM Mark Rutte if MH-17 fame).
Why did the US keep info under wraps in the intelligence briefing to members U.S.
Congress ... afterwards they specifically said there was. NO intelligence Ukraine airliner
was shot down ... lots to learn for all. Not following the Putin playbook. Or other
cover-ups like NATO downing an Italian passenger jet near Ithaca. Ukraine themselves have
accidentally shot down a Siberian airliner by exercises above the Black Sea.
Pretty hard to believe an accident this stupid. Sorry.
Could an Iranian have been turned by foreign agents to shoot down a passenger airliner,
and then claim it was an accident?
Or could Iran have been enticed to make a false admission to protect Boeings reputation
and/or the Ukraine airlines reputation. Perhaps a carrot of lesser severity in the new
sanctions?
There is no way to know really. I suppose its simplest to just take Irans admission as
truth. If US fighters were flying over Irans airspace I suppose thats an adequate
defense.
Still, its hard to see it. I mean if that was the case and enemy aircraft were intruding
over Irans airspace local civilian planes wouldn't have been cleared to take off by ATC
because there is no way to guarantee the flight path is clear. They just wouldn't. And if
they did Iran has just basically admitted how incompetent they are. I mean they knew what
was coming since they launched the missiles into Iraq. They had to have a plan on if there
was a retaliatory response They had to be tracking any incoming flights very carefully as
potential targets. A flight taking off from Tehran cant possibly be confused as an attacker
unless their air defense system and training of operators is FUBAR
I'm going back and watch Fake Wrestling. Its more believable
somebody
five eyes will come at you covered in any type of sheep clothing. Australian aid to east
timor, UK's white helmets, plenty of stories of CIA inserting itself into aid agencies.
Operation northwoods was one scheme put forward but not carried out. Sounds like the
Ukraine plane may have made a sudden turn to head back to the airport but towards a
protected site without allowing time for air defences to be notified.
There may be more to this story when flight records are retrieved.
According to the commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard
Corps, Amir Ali Hajizadeh, Iranian air defence systems mistook the Boeing 737 for a
cruise missile. The plane was shot down with a short-range projectile, he added.
Sounds very much like the situation with the Russian Il-20 that was brought down in Syria
last year. Was someone trying to use the Ukrainian jet as a cover to attack the IRGC site?
Hostile planes in the area.
Flight 752 making an approach "positioning itself at the altitude and form of a hostile
flight".
Maybe some experts will explain how common is it for an airliner to have an altitude and
trajectory consistent with a hostile flight (of an attacking missile).
Apparently the plane first took on extra fuel because it was overloaded and then
offloaded cargo because then it was even more overloaded. This seems illogical. What is the
standard practice in these cases?
And then there was someone who was there early in the morning ready to take video of the
flight.
And we had pictures of the missile fragment very soon after the crash. Someone knew what
to look for and searched for it.
Remote controlled hijacking???
Many questions-few answers.
Perhaps the solution is to have a S-300 or S-400 system put in place just like Putin did
after the IL-20 shootdown.
Quote from Farsnews
***
"Following threats by the criminal US president and military commanders to strike a large
number of targets on the Islamic Republic of Iran's territory in case of an Iranian attack
and due to the unprecedented aerial movements in the region, the Islamic Republic of Iran's
Armed Forces were on highest levels of alert to respond to any possible threats," the
statement said.
"In the early hours after the missile attack, military flights of the US terrorist
forces increased around the country and defense units received some reports about flying
objects that were moving towards the country's strategic centers as several targets
appeared on radar screens which made the air defense units more sensitive," it added.
"Under such sensitive and critical circumstances, flight number 752 of the Ukrainian
airline company left Imam Khomeini airport and then approached a sensitive military center
after a turn, positioning itselt at the altitude and form of a hostile flight and was hit
because of a human error and unintentionally under such conditions, and as a result a
number of our country men and women and some foreign citizens lost their lives," it
added.
****
My first thought on seeing the news that the Iranian military had admitted to shooting
down UIA Flight PS752 was similar to yours.
By making this admission, the Iranians nip in the bud any conspiracy theories and
narratives that their enemies might try to weave and convince the public around the world
(and especially diaspora Iranians) insinuating their guilt, whether actual or not, in the
plane crash.
Supposing the Iranians did deliberately shoot down the plane, there may be a reason why
they decided to say it was an accident: such an admission not only absolves them from
accusations of cold-bloodedness which might cost them the trust of their neighbours (and
others beyond their neighbourhood) but also relieves them of having to explain the real
reason for shooting down the plane - because that reason may very well be something
involving Ukraine in a regime-change activity or operation against Iran or one of its
allies.
Chechens are known to be in Ukraine, and to be fighting for and against Kiev. What other
groups not normally resident in Ukraine might have arrived there in the years since
Yanukovych's ousting as President in February 2014, being trained as fighters to fight in
other lands that have committed the unholy sin of defying the United States and the masters
Washington DC serves?
What the Iranians have done in admitting culpability is sure to displease a lot of
people, not satisfy them. They sure didn't see that one coming.
But shortly before the crash , the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration announced
an emergency flight restriction for U.S. airlines flying over areas of Iraq and Iran. The
FAA warned of the " potential for miscalculation or misidentification " of
civilian planes because of increased military tensions in those areas.
Iran will now be taken to the cleaners. The entire IRGC is classified by Washington as a
terrorist organisation so I imagine some US vulture law firm is already looking at taking
action in American courts against Iran in the full expectation that each victim's estate
will be awarded billions of dollars compensation and the US law firm will earn billions in
fees. Iran should get ahead of this game and make offers of substantial compensation (far
more than the legal minimum) to the families of all the victims.
"Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the
fuselage, directly under the cockpit.
A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the
aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.
While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that
the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this
remains to be clarified."
If this is the case, it is doubtful the pilots and perhaps the cockpit controls would
have been in any condition to turn the aircraft after the first hit.
This is one good reason to make certain Iran does not get nuclear weapons.
Russia and China absolutely are working to keep Iran from getting nukes. And those are
Iran's closest "allies", who are risking sanctions to help Iran survive the maximum
pressure hybrid war.
Time to get real about Iran.
The regime should have let the Russians sell them the S-400, and let the Russians build
an integrated defense system with communications for all units. It might have prevented
such a tragedy. But the regime is full of pride and wants its weapons to be built by Iran.
Thus, tragedy has befallen Iran. Needlessly.
They need to come up with a diplomatic, negotiating strategy (like listen to Putin) and
change the present terms of engagement. The US will crush them economically otherwise.
Trump doesn't have to fire a shot. Iran is stumbling backward, not just on a back foot.
Your post merely adds to the feeling something very very odd has gone on here, as the
resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny. If the Ukrainian army had come out and
admitted, in only two days, that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of
the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been
very different. But of course they didn't, and didn't need to, as fighter jets had done the
job for them anyway. On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population
from Kiev's air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they
would have been the first to admit it. Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins
concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a "tragic accident" – as
Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev
being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also
went unheard.
But of course the two events are not the same, and not connected, or are they?
Did the Ukrainian plane have its transponder turned on? Was it the first plane to leave
Tehran following the Iranian missile volleys? Would a cruise missile have been launched from
Afghanistan towards the firing site in Kermanshah, passing over Tehran? What went on in the
control tower of Imam Khomeini airport?
Nothing is clear yet, except "cui bono".
Earlier today, President Rouhanie of Iran formally admitted that the Iranian Revolutionary
Guard Corps had shot down the Ukrainian passenger jet leaving Tehran a few days ago.
Speculation has been rampant, but here are the alleged facts of the case, at this
time:
In the early hours of the 8th January, Iran launched missiles at two US-occupied bases
in Iraq. This was done in retaliation for the death of General Qassem Soleimani. Ukraine
Airlines flight PS 752 departed Tehran airport on 8th January. Three minutes later it crashed.
There were 176 passengers/crew on board. Mostly Iranians, Ukrainians and Canadians. Within
hours, Western media were quoting anonymous "Iraqi
intelligence officials" that Iran had shot the plane down "likely by accident". The US
State Dept, and their proxy NGOs, echoed this theory. A great rundown of who said what and when
can be found on
Moon of Alabama . Despite at first denying these accusations, the Iranian government
has since admitted to "accidentally" downing the plane. Their statement can be read here
(or
here in the original Farsi). Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was
out of radio contact with his commander and "panicked" upon seeing the fast-moving object on
radar. Response to the admission has come from many world leaders. Justin Trudeau called for
"further investigation", Vladimir Zelensky demanded Iran take "full responsibility", whilst
Boris Johnson called it "an important first step". The US has already announced further
sanctions. Reports are already coming in of "unrest" and "protests" in the wake of this
admission.
The Guardian and Newsweek, among others, claiming young people especially are tired of
the leadership demanding "resignations and prosecutions" (we are, as yet unable to confirm
these protests took place).
So what does this mean for the region as a whole?
Will this – as Boris Johnson said – be "first step to de-escalation" in the
region? Will there be extensive protests? Will Iraq now rescind their demand the US leave their
country?
As always, discuss below.
Protect ,
Sabotage can take many shapes and forms. Remember when the Syrian army was fooled into
shooting down a Russian surveillance aircraft with 15 people onboard?
Those imposing punitive santions and continually threatening a desstructive war must
definitely be held responsible for the extreme conditions they have created.
Charlotte Russe ,
The conditional word "if" often is used to begin describing the most horrific events. If they
hadn't been driving the night the other car careened into their lane; if they didn't go into
that store shortly before the robbery; if they didn't go sailing during an awful storm; if
Trump didn't order the assassination of General Soleimani 176 innocent civilians would still
be alive; and if all imperialist wars would stop collateral murder would also end.
An Iranian Officer mistook the plane for a hostile missile and made the "bad decision" to
open fire. He said he "wished" he "was dead" when he learned about the downing of the
aircraft. There were 82 Iranians aboard the Boeing Jet.
Most on the plane were graduate students from Canada. I was not aware that Canada is home
to a large Iranian diaspora, with some 210,000 citizens of Iranian descent.
"The country is also a popular destination for Iranian graduate and postdoctoral students
to study and conduct research abroad, which is why many students were on the flight,
returning to university following the winter break.
There is also no direct flight between Canada and Iran, and the Ukraine International
Airlines flight from Tehran to Kiev and then to Toronto is popular because it is one of the
most affordable options for the journey."
Not mentioned before – and it is another reason why I still consider that the incident
is not just human error but sabotage: In 6 months embargo on weapon sales to Iran will expire
and the country will be able to buy S-400, Iskanders or fighter jets. Quite good reason to
awake sleeping agent
Philpot ,
Are the Integrity Initiative hard at work on here?
David Macilwain ,
Your post merely adds to the feeling something very very odd has gone on here, as the
resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny. If the Ukrainian army had come out and
admitted, in only two days, that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of
the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been
very different. But of course they didn't, and didn't need to, as fighter jets had done the
job for them anyway. On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population
from Kiev's air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they
would have been the first to admit it. Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins
concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a "tragic accident" – as
Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev
being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also
went unheard.
But of course the two events are not the same, and not connected, or are they?
Did the Ukrainian plane have its transponder turned on? Was it the first plane to leave
Tehran following the Iranian missile volleys? Would a cruise missile have been launched from
Afghanistan towards the firing site in Kermanshah, passing over Tehran? What went on in the
control tower of Imam Khomeini airport?
Nothing is clear yet, except "cui bono".
Dimly Glimpsed ,
Matt,
Have you considered the arguments and evidence which show the BUK missile in the MH17 case
came from the Ukranian government-controlled battery?
Also, from what I can recall, the Americans and NATO countries routinely lie about
everything. Mike Pompeo, the American Secretary of State, for example, in a April, 2019
speech at Texas A&M, made the following statement about the CIA:
"I was the CIA Director – We Lied, We Cheated, We stole".
Trump lies so routinely that lying is now becoming normalized in American society.
The "Allies" appear to be lying not only about MH17, but also about the Skripal case, the
charges (backed up by lies by the U.N. agency OPCW) that Assad used sarin and/or chlorine in
Douma, that Huawei technology is insecure because there are hidden back doors (true of Cisco
with CIA back doors, but no one can prove any exist in Huawei), etc.
Perhaps you recall that the "Allies" launched a war of aggression against Iraq, based on
the false charge that Saddam had nuclear weapons, and backed up by a sloppy and juvenile
"sexed up dossier" that Tony Blair's government used as justification, and lies such as the
daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassdor claiming that Saddam's soldiers threw babies out of
incubators.
Perhaps you recall that the USA used illegal chemical weapons such as white phosphorus in
its extermination of the civilian city Fallujah during the American attack on Iraq. Perhaps
you are aware that the "Allies" hide and deny Israel's proven use of white phosphorus on the
captive Palestinian population, along with using the Palestinians as human shields and
killing unarmed Palestinian women and children targeted intentionally by snipers.
If your interest is an objective view of matters, the hopefully you'll consider the track
records of the players involved. Iran has invaded no other country in hundreds of years. The
US is the world champion of invading other countries, and Britain and France have disgraceful
histories of colonization and genocidal crimes against native peoples, as does America and
other members of the "Allies", including Australia and Canada.
I could go on, and on, and on. The "Allies" are much more guilty of killing and lies than
Iran.
As you may know, the CIA has assassinated a number of country leaders, including several
in South America, by bombing planes. Rumor is that is what the CIA had planned for Evo
Morales, which is why he fled to Mexico, knowing the USA and traitors in the Bolivian army
were planning just such an assassination.
I'm also having a bit of difficulty recalling many lies by the Iranians. On the other
hand, from mere recollection alone, I could keep typing for yours adding to a list of lies I
do recall by America and the Europeans, many of which were coverups of bloody insurrections,
assassinations and murders.
Bottom line: I don't trust anything America or the Europeans say. They are biased, have a
track record of lying, and have a history of unclean hands. The Iranians, on the other hand,
have a much better record in all those areas.
Paul ,
It was the same in Iran back in 1953 with the sudden appearance of angry and armed 'anti a
Communists' protesting the government, winding up the political time bomb. It cost the State
Department a lot of money – although not as much as spent on the Shah! Later these
mercenary protesters, often special forces types seeped in brutality upped the PR with
flowers and colours as symbols. In other places, where they faced serious opposition they
reverted to the dirtiest of tricks involving snipers creating havoc, as in Kiev in 2014.
Something similar seems to be happening in Hong King and Tehran but then did anybody expect
the Empire to roll over?!
As I wrote, it's strangely convenient for the hegemons. Now Trump even tweets in Farsi,
supporting Tehran protest.
I have no doubt that the plane was downed by Iranian missile. But was it an error? It's
not outside of realm of possibilities that it was a sabotage. Mole withing air defense unit
nearby Tehran's civil airport.
Under the current circumstances it's less damaging for Iran to take responsiblity for the
tragedy then admit that the internal security was severely breached and infiltrated by
hostile forces.
Jack_Garbo ,
As has already been stated, the Iranian attacked on two US bases was not the "revenge" for
Soleimani's assassination, but a show of 1. Iranian tactical ability (warned first, no
casualties), 2, the beginning of revenge for Soleimani and others killed by the US presence.
It has only begun.
Don't think like a (short-term) Westerner, but like a long term Easterner. The US will
eventually be driven out, the Iranians will them them good-bye.
Considering the fact how convenient the whole airliner incident is for the hegemons I still
have doubts if it was just human error.
Pompeo tweeting support for Tehran protest which follows today's announcement. British
ambassador arrested amid participation in it. It pseaks loud imo
JudyJ ,
If the footage of the missile striking the plane is genuine, I remain unclear as to why
someone would have been, it would appear, randomly pointing a phone camera at a black night
sky on the outskirts of Tehran at 6.30 in the morning and, by sheer coincidence, caught the
moment of impact. The way the camera was being aligned would suggest the person behind the
camera was anticipating a particular event and was eager to capture it on film. Maybe I'm
being unduly suspicious. Of course we don't know for sure that the footage in question was
indeed genuine.
Mike Leach ,
I don't think there's any such thing as 'unduly suspicious' in the present state of the
world.
Derek ,
Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was out of radio contact with
his commander and "panicked" upon seeing the fast-moving object on radar.
More than one missile was launched so is it not possible that's why the person was
filming?
Loverat ,
One thing I think I mentioned on another thread as cynical as it is, this plane possibly
might have been shot down deliberately by Iran. If you think about it, this event has
distracted and possibly taken the 'sting' out of the main event. And of course if the West
knows the plane was shot down by Iran deliberately it could have been a message not to
retaliate for the air base attack. Iran admitting it accidentally shot down the plane might
take some of the force out of my argument/ possible theory but then again this might be an
effort to take out the 'secondary sting or risk of retaliation. Hope that makes some sense!
Let's face it, there are other states aside from US and UK might create or stage 'events'.
As for demos in Iran, can't really see why this would be a major issue for Iranians, or if so
likely to be significantly talked up by Pompeo and extremist war rags like the Guardian.
But who really knows at this stage?
Martin Usher ,
Actually, it ruined what should have been a perfect response. I honestly thought their air
defenses were more sophisticated than they were, in particular that there was a level of
coordination between individual units and a command and control center that could verify
whether a threat was real or not. We can speculate about whether this event was engineered or
not but as far as I'm concerned its a screwup of the same order as the Vincennes incident.
(The only different being that the Iranians didn't have a news crew taping 'our boys' in
action while they paniced and overreacted.)
Sad as this is I don't think it will happen again. Needless to say we in the US will make
as much political capital about it as we can but then its our job.
Another leak (ukr) from the
Ukrainian side of the investigation gives some hints on how the plane came down (machine
translation):
"We took up the restoration of fragments of the aircraft. It was necessary to determine how
these pieces of metal dumped into a huge pile should be interconnected.
The intrigue remained until late. The fact is that there were no damages on most parts of
the aircraft. There was no explosion and no fire in the engines or on the wings. It is
possible that the plane could fall almost intact. Unlike the remains of the Boeing MN-17,
there were no immediately visible signs of defeat by combat elements on the fuselage and
wings. A lot of damage to the case is the result of a fall. But after laying out all the
fragments of the aircraft, it became obvious that the bottom of the cockpit was missing.
Among the wreckage, fragments of the upper part of the cabin were identified. And then the
find finally took place - at about 22 hours. On a fragment of the cockpit, we found holes in
the damaging elements of the warhead of the rocket, which pierced the skin. We found! For the
first time, direct evidence appeared in this case, which made it possible to prove what
caused the death of the aircraft. For us it was a turning point.
So what we now understand:
Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the
fuselage, directly under the cockpit.
A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the
aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.
While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that
the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this remains
to be clarified.
We continue to lay out fragments of the aircraft until the complete collection of all
surviving parts.
We expect that today we will gain access to all objective control data.
In cooperation with Iranian colleagues, we get the impression that those who contact us
sincerely want to help themselves and figure it out, in general, there are no problems. Let's
hope that such a mood and working contacts remain with us now."
"... 5 eye propaganda is vile. Other people's propaganda is not much better. No one sane trusts their government. ..."
"... Why was Zelensky ( Pres. of the Ukraine ) being so reasonable and calm about the whole situation, telling everyone not to jump to conclusions, when his handlers ( zioamerica ) were crying shoot down almost from the beginning. ..."
"... What was the reason for the plane's hour long delay at the airport ? ..."
"... Zelensky is out of the US orbit as his sponsor Kholomojsky seems to have decided that his business interests are with Russia - but apart from that, Zelensky is a Russian speaker, with a Jewish background, and not part of the Western Ukraine Bandera proto-fascists. ..."
"... Don't commercial aircraft have radar identification beacons on them ? ..."
"... As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to attack on American bases, it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground flights following the attack. ..."
"... It is also wise that Iran accepts the guilt and apologizes. I am sure that they will do more. ..."
"... The IRGC must learn this: modern warfare is not fought with bravery, but with cold-blooded rationality. We're not in ancient warfare anymore: this is industrial warfare, waged with machines which kill humans (and destroy other machines) in a mass scale with maximum efficiency, operated by mathematical calculations at superhuman speeds. This is the era of the nerds, not of the macho men. ..."
"... So, before indoctrinating its soldiers with random religious texts and tales of martyrdom, the IRGC better teach them to fill a fucking log and keep their nerves in place first. And welcome to the 21st Century. ..."
"... According to reports, SIX of these people were NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS. Visiting IRAN. At the same time. on the same plane. What are the chances that it's coincidence? ..."
"... Assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists ..."
"... There is only so much human error can explain. If the missile in the famous video is what caused the crash, note that it was flying EAST. The jamming incident explains a lot. Several outbound civilian flights had taken off in the late afternoon following the same flight pattern, so WHY at that time? Also, why does Trump not want to share the intel, saying people have no right to see it? ..."
"... Lots of idiots here. Be glad they accepted responsibility within a reasonable time frame. This is what happens in a WAR. Who drove the Iranians to this point? They certainly have my respect, unlike those cowboys. ..."
"... Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian flights were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also night take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . . ..."
"... Staying in the domain of facts rather than speculation and having worked on the design of air defence systems, I can add a tidbit of info. TOR system can be in a configuration without a surveillance radar, with only a tracking radar. Then when not integrated into a wide area system with centralised control, the crew of such system cannot track aircraft, they can only detect aircraft. Detecting an approaching aircraft/target, tracking it from the moment of detection and not really knowing where it originated from is probably why the crew had to make a faithful decision in a very short time. ..."
"... General note to self: never fly Boeing and stay away from flights which approach any of the war zones that JUSA regularly creates. ..."
"... On the reported taking advantage by Germany to target Iran as terrorist state and ask for more sanctions, we must recall Germany's responsibility along with the US, Canada and current Ukrainian regime, for the terrorist events which gave place to the nazi coup d´etat in the Ukraine, amongst them, the Maidan Snippers event, but not only, also those enumerated by me in another comment above. ..."
"... Given Pompeo's curriculum, it was probable that the CIA had the wrong conjunctural assessment of Iran. They expected that a "silent majority" would revive the riots of some months ago, leaving the theocracy one step closer to collapse. Unless there was indeed serious consideration about using "tactical" nukes, that's the only rational explanation for Soleimani's murder. ..."
"... Right after the funeral day, Trump quickly sought contact with the Ayatollah to negotiate a scale down. Rumor says he even agreed with a "proportional" retaliation against an American target. And then the Iraqi parliament debacle happened, which put the USA in a very embarassing situation. ..."
"... It would be very optimistic to assume that JUSA would just gloat at this accident and milk it for its maximum propaganda value ..."
"... " An attacker could potentially pivot, Santamarta says, from the in-flight entertainment system to the CIS/MS to send commands to far more sensitive components that control the plane's safety-critical systems, including its engine, brakes, and sensors. Boeing maintains that other security barriers in the 787's network architecture would make that progression impossible." ..."
"... IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy. ..."
"... Certainly they were on high alert and it could have been an individual error combined with a system malfunction, the aircraft straying out of its commercial lane or any confluence of events. Something may be lurking beneath the surface. The media jumped on and pushed the story hard and that always leaves me suspicious. The borg was correct and knew what happened immediately and reported it truthfully. An even stranger event. ..."
"... What an epic mistake to not close the airspace. I'm impressed that the IRGC admitted full responsibility and even gave a detailed description of the human error. Adding in the EW jamming and it is easy how this could happen. What a horrible tragedy. ..."
"... "The cyberattacks -- a contingency plan developed over weeks amid escalating tensions -- disabled Iranian computer systems that controlled its rocket and missile launchers, the officials said. Two of the officials said the attacks, which specifically targeted Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps computer system, were provided as options after Iranian forces blew up two oil tankers earlier this month." ..."
Of course they did. But Iranians should have seen that coming. Some people still think
they can continue with this stupidity - like Jerusalem Post on the tit for
tat "Kindergarten" strategy .
What they are doing is "showing capabilities" and testing weapons systems. They had a
"game" of conventional war justified by "not killing anybody". Well they did. Both parties.
Real all out conventional war is impossible without mass casualties on all sides. And all out
unconventional/assymetric war just draws out the misery.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 12:21 utc | 119
I was talking about the ability to be sad and apologize. I prefer not to have a religious
authority dictating my private life.
5 eye propaganda is vile. Other people's propaganda is not much better. No one sane
trusts their government.
Sadly, no facts. Perhaps if we had full bios on the passengers we could tally up how many
had done undergrad studies at George Washington University, but spooks usually have fictional
biographies so I am not sure how much help that would be.
Iran didn't cancel flights because they most likely had an agreement with the ZioAmericans
allowing them to attack the US bases, and were told there would be no retaliation..
Don't commercial aircraft have radar identification beacons on them ?
Why was Zelensky ( Pres. of the Ukraine ) being so reasonable and calm about the whole
situation, telling everyone not to jump to conclusions, when his handlers ( zioamerica ) were
crying shoot down almost from the beginning.
What was the reason for the plane's hour long delay at the airport ?
Posted by: Fog of War | Jan 11 2020 13:02 utc | 128
Zelensky is out of the US orbit as his sponsor Kholomojsky seems to have decided that
his business interests are with Russia - but apart from that, Zelensky is a Russian speaker,
with a Jewish background, and not part of the Western Ukraine Bandera proto-fascists.
Don't commercial aircraft have radar identification beacons on them ?
If your system is not compromised and can read it.
The Boeing was hit by a Tor system, related to the BUK of MH17 fame. There were a lot of
flights over Teheran airport at the time. Can anyone find out if the Ukraine Airlines flight
was the only Boeing and is the hack specific to Boeing?
It is sad that the real victims of this escalation so far has been 176 souls that have
nothing to do with this affair. As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to
attack on American bases, it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground
flights following the attack.
I personally put the blame on USA for its disproportionate
responses in the entire affair as it created the conditions that lead to this horrible
accident, but Iran could have been more careful by considering that human factors can prove
catastrophic under tense circumstances.
It is also wise that Iran accepts the guilt and apologizes. I am sure that they will do
more.
IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: The officials, including Aviation authorities, who kept denying the
missile hit, are not guilty. They made those remarks based on what they knew . We
are to blame for everything.
Well well - there's always the human factor. As the saying goes: there's no fool-proof
plan. Days of investigative speculation undone by (probably) a small bureaucratic error which
resulted in a lack of communication.
The IRGC must learn this: modern warfare is not fought with bravery, but with cold-blooded
rationality. We're not in ancient warfare anymore: this is industrial warfare, waged with
machines which kill humans (and destroy other machines) in a mass scale with maximum
efficiency, operated by mathematical calculations at superhuman speeds. This is the era of
the nerds, not of the macho men.
So, before indoctrinating its soldiers with random religious texts and tales of martyrdom,
the IRGC better teach them to fill a fucking log and keep their nerves in place first. And
welcome to the 21st Century.
According to reports, SIX of these people were NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS. Visiting IRAN. At
the same time. on the same plane. What are the chances that it's coincidence?
There is only so much human error can explain. If the missile in the famous video is what
caused the crash, note that it was flying EAST. The jamming incident explains a lot. Several
outbound civilian flights had taken off in the late afternoon following the same flight
pattern, so WHY at that time? Also, why does Trump not want to share the intel, saying people
have no right to see it?
The other Boeing took off headed for Hong Kong only seconds before the Ukraine flight.
Looks to be the green flight path that turns back east southeast shortly after takeoff. The
Ukraine flight was the only Boeing that took the northern flight path.
Lots of idiots here. Be glad they accepted responsibility within a reasonable time frame.
This is what happens in a WAR. Who drove the Iranians to this point? They certainly have my
respect, unlike those cowboys.
"Or could Iran have been enticed to make a false admission to protect Boeing's reputation
and/or the Ukraine airline's reputation. Perhaps a carrot of lesser severity in the new
sanctions?"
This doesn't seem to comport with what we know/have been told about how the Iranian govt
and religious leadership works.
Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian
flights were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also
night take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . .
I am so, so saddened to hear of the cause of this terrible incident, and I do blame it on
the USA, which started this provocation of Iraq-Iran.
Staying in the domain of facts rather than speculation and having worked on the design of air
defence systems, I can add a tidbit of info. TOR system can be in a configuration without a
surveillance radar, with only a tracking radar. Then when not integrated into a wide area
system with centralised control, the crew of such system cannot track aircraft, they can only
detect aircraft. Detecting an approaching aircraft/target, tracking it from the moment of
detection and not really knowing where it originated from is probably why the crew had to
make a faithful decision in a very short time.
Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) looks great in theory but has many drawbacks
(relatively easy spoofing) therefore is generally not relied upon, especially not by the
second grade EW countries. I remind everybody how, during 1st Gulf War, US air defence in
Kuwait shot down (at least) one British bomber (killed pilot);returning from a mission in
Iraq. That much for IFF even within first EW grade countries of NATO.
Stand-alone air defence units (not integrated) in a very complex air space environment
(with civilian air traffic in the air, possible drones, cruise missiles, low observability
military planes, etc etc) are a definite recipe for disaster. Trying to avoid the cost of air
traffic disruption (or loss of overflight fees) despite high risk of an even bigger cost
happened in Ukraine already (MH17) and Iran did not learn from it. (It does not matter who
shot down MH17 Ukraine is responsible). Whoever did not close down the civilian air traffic
after shooting missiles at US targets is really responsible for this tragedy, slightly more
than JUSA. But governments never learn because their power protects them from the need to
learn.
General note to self: never fly Boeing and stay away from flights which approach any of
the war zones that JUSA regularly creates.
On the reported taking advantage by Germany to target Iran as terrorist state and ask for
more sanctions, we must recall Germany's responsibility along with the US, Canada and current
Ukrainian regime, for the terrorist events which gave place to the nazi coup d´etat in
the Ukraine, amongst them, the Maidan Snippers event, but not only, also those enumerated by
me in another comment above.
Also we must add Germany's responsibility in the war information which gave place to the
justification of the destruction of former Yugoslavia as a way of getting rid of an European
superpower inclined to the Est which could oppose current German hegemony in Europe, which,
being Germany an Us occupied country, only means US hegemony over Europe.
Go preparing for the "renaissance" of the IV Reich and its evolution, and not only in
hairdos....
Germany, along with UK, is responsible for all the evil has happened in Europe since the
falling of the Spanish Empire. GLADIO and many other operations come to mind.
Thus, better shut up when labelling others as terrorists...
Time to remind the pro-US/Zionist trolls here that, as war criminal GHW Bush was quoted, the
US will never admit it is wrong, let alone trying to fulfill stupid ancient texts for their
sheeple Zionist Jew and right-wing Christian voters and political funders (think Rothschild,
Adelson). The End of Days may not become reality, but a Yinon Plan/AIPAC, Greater Israel is
all too likely a prospect. All because Lord Balfour didn't have the balls to tell Lord
Rothschild to go pound salt, and the US was too stupid to avoid taking up the Zionist cause
after WW2.
The US has SO MUCH more to apologize for, like LIES about WMD's, Syria gas attacks,
Kuwaiti babies thrown from incubators, South American death squads, reaching back beyond
"Remember the Maine".
So the US/ZATO needs to take the hundreds of logs out of their own eye before endlessly
demanding Iran take the sliver from their eye.
The US is run by lying, hypocritical psychopaths, from the Oval Office down through
Congress, to the bowels of the NSA/FBI/CIA/Mossad and the Pentagon.
.
. The greatest irony of it all:
-- That the US almost never compensate the families or counties hit by 'mistakes' or killed
as 'collateral damage'.
-- That the Iran authorities and judicial system make some compensation obligatory.
-- That Iran has been cut off from the means to aquire US dollars or Euro and have been cut
off from all international payment systems: Any compensation would have to be paid in Iranian
reals and used within Iran.
. Good for future tourism by airplane travel to Tehran?
Saying Soleimani was a hero for fighting ISIS is just like saying Hitler was a hero for
fighting Stalin.
The only world player that has been unselfishly good in recent memory is Cuba by sending
its doctors throughout the.world and Venezuela under Chavez sending oil to poor people
including those in the US.
Posted by: CognitiveDissonance | Jan 11 2020 5:25 utc | 15
--------
One can make any classifications of "good, but not unselfishly", "kind of good" and so on,
but this is a pernicious type of whataboutery. Basically, we should find reasons to be
obedient subjects of the Empire, yes, the Empire is not good but almost no one is much
better, so find better deals for seeds for our little garden, focus on that, convince others
not to do anything either.
To understand the Empire, one has to read stories about school bullying. A charismatic kid
accumulates a circle of friends and a victim. The victim is harassed, his/her stuff damaged,
and a creative combination of verbal humiliation, physical humiliations and outright assaults
keeps the circle amused. If anyone defends the chosen victim, the efforts redouble against
that person, so the majority is either actively sycophantic (bravo, Mr. Johnson, bravo, Mr.
Trudeau!) or sullen. But not too sullen (OK job, Madam Merkel, we will punish you only
mildly). That can raise the wrath of the dominant clique too.
It is often the case that the victim is "not perfect". And the removal of the top bully
does not have to change the school into paradise. But doing nothing is a coward option,
however "sensible". It is also stupid, nobody can deliver paradise, but avoiding hell is
totally possible, so why we should be content with hell?
@ Posted by: CognitiveDissonance | Jan 11 2020 5:25 utc | 15
Evidence available strongly indicates Soleimani was indeed extremely popular in Iran.
It is probable the USA expected brand new and stronger anti-government manifestation in
the streets of Tehran after he was murdered. Pompeo claimed right after - in cheerful tone -
that "Iran is nearer regime change after Soleimani's assassination".
Given Pompeo's curriculum, it was probable that the CIA had the wrong conjunctural
assessment of Iran. They expected that a "silent majority" would revive the riots of some
months ago, leaving the theocracy one step closer to collapse. Unless there was indeed
serious consideration about using "tactical" nukes, that's the only rational explanation for
Soleimani's murder.
His hopes of regime change were quickly dashed by the millions who showed up in the
streets of Tehran for his funeral. He was indeed very popular, the official propaganda was
true: Soleimani's reputation really preceeded him.
Right after the funeral day, Trump quickly sought contact with the Ayatollah to
negotiate a scale down. Rumor says he even agreed with a "proportional" retaliation against
an American target. And then the Iraqi parliament debacle happened, which put the USA in a
very embarassing situation.
In the greater scheme of things, this accidental downing of a commercial plane was a very
small price to pay. It's one of those once in a blue moon incidents where the imponderable
overcame what 99.99% of the then available evidence indicated. It doesn't change the morality
of the conflict: the USA still has to get out of Iraq, and Iran's cause (regardless of its
theocratic regime) is still just. Or do you expect a prosperous Iran to rise from an
hypothetic American occupation of the country?
The days of the Marshall Plan are still over. The USA can't nation build anymore - it
simply doesn't have the resources (as it had in 1946).
It would be very optimistic to assume that JUSA would just gloat at this accident and milk
it for its maximum propaganda value . Unfortunately, it is likely that the leading
shitbags of the World will not fail to use the shell shock state of the Iranian air defense
to bomb soon for the benefit of lower losses due to Iranian FUD. I can only hope that the
Iranian air defense will recover it's mental state quickly or the loss of life will be much
much bigger than one plane load. Soleimani was a nasty military character, but his style of
organisational skills is sorely needed for a quick reorganisation of the Iranian air defence
under clear and present danger.
143 "Stand-alone air defence units (not integrated) in a very complex air space environment
(with civilian air traffic in the air, possible drones, cruise missiles, low observability
military planes, etc etc) are a definite recipe for disaster."
From my understanding, all Russian and perhaps previous to that society defense systems
are made to be able to operate as stand alone units incase the network goes down. This
appears to be what happened in Iran Whoever was commanding that unit, with coms down had make
a decision with no input from the wider defense network.
US, five eyes and mossad are very good at covering their tracks at times, but modus
operandi and narrative give them away.
You can always blame the airport for not shutting down the traffic but that is usually easier
to say after the fact. Of course, you could shut down all air traffic across the globe as a
precautionary measure. It is convenient to speculate retrospectively that - after the Iranian
strike in Iraq - Tehran should have shut down its airport ( which it had except for a few
flights).
This is where the theory of Iranian misinformation boomerangs: even if the state media had
shown the Iranian strikes in Iraq on TV, what reason did anyone have to believe it?
Farsnews reported that 80 American soldiers died in those strikes but now the US says that
was not true either. So what reason had anyone to believe anything. This is not comparable to
the crash in Ukraine at all. There the plane was flying above the warzone, here the distance
between Tehran and Iraq was about 800 km. Of course, it would be convenient for the US to
command every airport in Iran to shut down....
"Now, nearly a year later, Santamarta claims that leaked code has led him to something
unprecedented: security flaws in one of the 787 Dreamliner's components, deep in the plane's
multi-tiered network. He suggests that for a hacker, exploiting those bugs could represent
one step in a multistage attack that starts in the plane's in-flight entertainment
system and extends to highly protected, safety-critical systems like flight controls and
sensors."
" An attacker could potentially pivot, Santamarta says, from the in-flight
entertainment system to the CIS/MS to send commands to far more sensitive components that
control the plane's safety-critical systems, including its engine, brakes, and sensors.
Boeing maintains that other security barriers in the 787's network architecture would make
that progression impossible." https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-787-code-leak-security-flaws/
What Boeing is saying here is admitting the plane can be taken over from the ground, or at
least many things disrupted, but their security is that good nobody can break into it. I
believe most Boeing aircraft send automated data back to Boeing (maintenance, faults and so
forth) which may mean Boeing always has an open line into the aircraft. Boeing being part of
US MIC.
Well Peter 153, you are right about the ability to operate stand-alone. But such is a
fall-back tactic, not a to begin with tactic. When comms and the operations centre are
destroyed no civilian aircraft are supposed to remain in the air. I did not read that all
Iranian comms were down. I also did not read a statement that their radars were jammed. BTW,
I have experienced radar and comms jamming by a US aircraft carrier and despite being
targeted at military frequencies, it is disruptive to all civilian comms and civilian
aircraft as well. Therefore, this plane would not have been flying under radio and radar
jamming conditions.
I can only repeat the two obvious root causes: you expect a military retaliation but do
not close down civilian air traffic and you scatter your air defense units unconnected to a
centre (which essentially leaves considerable destructive power in the hands of below average
brains connected to twitchy fingers at least somewhere in such scatter - imagine the
statistical risk level).
Never assume that this could never happen in your country. Only countries without
governments are safe. The only difference is whether the government admits or not, TWA800
anyone?
I can sit at home with my laptop and monitor almost all commercial air traffic in my area
with an antenna, ABS software, and a RTL SDR donegal. It is not that difficult and the
internet is not needed as long as the aircraft withing withing range of the antenna. They
transmit in 1.090 gigahertz. RTL-SDR Tutorial: Cheap ADS-B
Aircraft RADAR
IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had
reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this
tragedy.
Certainly they were on high alert and it could have been an individual error combined
with a system malfunction, the aircraft straying out of its commercial lane or any confluence
of events. Something may be lurking beneath the surface. The media jumped on and pushed the
story hard and that always leaves me suspicious. The borg was correct and knew what happened
immediately and reported it truthfully. An even stranger event.
To add....I tried hard to change my connection to Moscow, but no way, just imagine what my
mood was on travelling by Kiev connection on a flag airline of a now nazi state being myself
a real left, pro-Russian activist...
While in the long queue to check in and baggage dropp in, I dedicated myself to, out of
curiosity, observe my Ukrainian flight companions, and must say they all seemed to me, by
their face´s expression, peaceful and patient stance, innocent people totally
misdirected by a bunch of oligarchic and foreign interests, mainly residing in North
America...
One would say they mostly seemed and innocent crowd who then provided a quite peaceful
flight and connection, i must adit also quite effectiveness by the Kiev airport personel
related to timely departure and baggage organization...
On harsh contrast, I suffered a quite disturbing incident protagonized by some Iranians
coming from the US in a flight to Teheran....I had been the first to place my handbaggage in
the compartment up my sit, when some US diaspora Iranian women( clearly way over-empoverished
by the US life style even for an European like me.. ) arrived, dropped my baggage out the
compartiment so as to place theirs, leaving mine on the floor, without leaving any place left
for it in the compartment, which obly me to put it further from I was sat, something I
usually try to avoid as long as possible by sometimes standing up in the line to boarding
while others remain sat. I complained in English ( which they clearly understood...) adding
Spanish temperament, to no avail, such was their stuborness to prevail...
Then, during the flight, they kept talking to me as if nothing unpolite had happened,
including the one sat by my side....I got to the conclusion that they had been obviously
brutalized by living in the US, since the attittude of Iranians in Iran during all my travel
was astonishingly polite and hospitable....
"Russia has signed a contract to supply Iran with sophisticated S-300 surface-to-air
missiles. The contract got the go-ahead after international sanctions on Iran were lifted
earlier this year, following a deal over its nuclear programme. Israel, the US and Saudi
Arabia are all opposed to the missile contract. Russian officials say the first batch could
be delivered 18 months after Iran has specified the S-300 type that it wants. Technical talks
are continuing.
"The deal to supply the S-300 to Iran has not only been signed between the parties but it
has already come into force," said Sergei Chemezov, head of Russia's Rostec arms firm,
speaking at the Dubai Airshow-2015.
The $800m (£545m) contract, signed in 2007, was frozen by Russia in 2010 because of
the international sanctions. President Vladimir Putin unfroze it in April.
Israel and the US fear the missiles could be used to protect Iranian nuclear sites from
air strikes. The missiles can shoot down jets and other missiles hundreds of kilometres away.
The S-300 can be used against multiple targets including jets, or to shoot down other
missiles.
The S-300B4 variant - delivered to the Russian armed forces last year - can shoot down any
medium-range missile in the world today, flies at five times the speed of sound and has a
range of 400km (248 miles), Tass reports."
When the Russian deal was suspended Iran filed a lawsuit seeking billions of dollars in
damages. Mr Chemezov said Saudi Arabia had asked Rostec repeatedly not to supply the S-300 to
Iran. But he insisted that it was a defensive weapon. "So if the Gulf countries are not going
to attack Iran... why should they be threatened? Because this is defence equipment," Reuters
news agency quoted him as saying."
Minister of defence of the Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI) Hossein Dehgan said: "We produce
a system to ensure air safety at three levels. Available high-range deficiencies we made up
for the purchase of s-300, we do not have any need to purchase other systems", -- quotes
Agency Tasnim statement Dehgan.
The Iranian defense Minister Dehgan said that "Iran has the necessary defensive system
that is able to ensure aerospace security of the country".
In the past year, 2019, Russia indicated it would offer to sell the S-400. "We are open for
discussions on delivering S-400 Triumph air defense systems, including to Iran. Especially
given that this equipment is not subject to restrictions outlined in UN Security Council's
resolution issued on June 20, 2015," a representative of the press service of the Russian
Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation told Sputnik on Friday."
Iran's own Presstv.com reported. https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/06/28/599649/Russia-Iran-S400
Thanks b for the update and the excellent coverage.
What an epic mistake to not close the airspace. I'm impressed that the IRGC admitted
full responsibility and even gave a detailed description of the human error. Adding in the EW
jamming and it is easy how this could happen. What a horrible tragedy.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 11 2020 12:07 utc | 114
Yes, this was my first guess as well. Who was actually on that plane. Ukraine is
CIA/Mossad territory, but the Russians may have ways to find out who are on a flight to Kiev,
and they may choose to pass that information on. Then again, it might just be a mistake as
admitted.
I am very surprised by this admission. Are the Iranians just closing the door on this
Passenger jet and shifting the focus of conversation? Was there an actual mistake made by
their Air Defense?
Having apologized for an event that occurred under the Fog of War Iran will definitely get
credit from most Westerners as our governments never apologize. Why would a vicious
psychopath apologize? We are all Palestinians' to our governments in the 'Free West'?
I don't believe this admission changes the dynamic now under way: the U.S. has no defense
in the M.E. from Missile attack, if they continue to move forces to the ME to get to 100,000
(I calculate the Iranians as being able to field 100,000+ regulares and militia)it will be
viewed as an act of war as will bringing in Patriot systems.
All eyes must now be on what Washington DOES not what it says as, to most observers, it
always appears to be lying.
Bonus points for all westerners: can anyone think of a Western hero since DeGaulle or JFK?
I can't and I really wish it were otherwise.
My final comment on the topic. I blame both the war instigators and the local decision makers
for this tragedy. Yet, it is my strong impression that the person who pressed the button, the
US Cretin in Chief and Jonathan W here share about the same level of reasoning.
It is immensely comforting to know that one's life may be in the hands of such individual
at some point in life, hope NOT.
The obvious result of several generations of recruiting/hiring military and/or military
technicians for loyalty and obedience instead of intelligence. It is lucky for everyone that
they found that out now, before nuclear weapons were available.
Posted by: Mike-SMO | Jan 11 2020 14:23 utc | 154
Too late! Do you think that Pompeo got recruited/hired for intelligence? Or any believer
of the esoteric cult recently named "inter-agency consensus"? Not to mention that
brainwashing in educational programs of our finest institutions (check bio of Fiona Hill) can
dampen deleterious side-effects of intelligence (independent thinking and crap like that).
They got the nukes, and a galore of other toys to play with, as we had seen in the case of
Suleimani. And this process of creating esoteric supremacist doctrine is quite a bit longer
than the history of Iranian revolution.
I used the word esoteric to mean a doctrine with multiple levels of initiation and
knowledge, with deference to the higher levels. As Pompeo was explaining, there was a full
consensus among the people of the highest knowledge level, so Congressional blokes should
know their place. Most of them did, with a notable exception of a yokel from Utah.
kiza This is from last year. A good chance that after the Iranian missile strike, US would
have been trying to disrupt IRGC command and communication systems. IRGC manned the Tor unit
and according to Iran their coms were out at the time of the incident.
"The cyberattacks -- a contingency plan developed over weeks amid escalating tensions
-- disabled Iranian computer systems that controlled its rocket and missile launchers, the
officials said. Two of the officials said the attacks, which specifically targeted Iran's
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps computer system, were provided as options after Iranian
forces blew up two oil tankers earlier this month."
Kiza, adding this sort of crap in each comment really does give you away. "which
essentially leaves considerable destructive power in the hands of below average brains
connected to twitchy fingers"
They really are able to turn white into black and black into white.
Notable quotes:
"... 1) Occurs as Iran is on brink of war with USA?; 2) Indications of USA using info war tactics; 3) airliner owner by Kolomoisky? 4) No communication with tower? 5) USA and Israel history of duplicity and narrative management (example: MH-17). ..."
"... NATO has weaponized aircraft accident investigations. Lawfare in combination with state terrorism. ..."
"... The Ukies know how to obliterate a debris field. MH-17 -- They used artillery for months to keep OSCE and Dutch officials away, and despite the locals working to protect the deceased and the debris, body parts have been found years later. ..."
There were also clear sightings of a missile to bring down TWA 800. Except it didn't. As an
Navy Pilot , flight instructor and 737 captain this does not at 1st or 2nd glance appear to
be a missile strike. Catastropic engine failure is my bet. They made most of the turn back to
the airport before losing integrity or loss of thrust.
On Wednesday, Boeing's shares plummeted by 2.3 percent ($3.4bn) after the Ukrainian Boeing
737-800 aircraft crashed in Tehran due to encountering a technical glitch.
On Thursday, the stock rose by 3 percent after unnamed Pentagon officials claimed that
the Ukrainian passenger plane was most likely brought down by anti-aircraft missiles, and
US President Donald Trump implicitly supported the claim. This has been read by analysists
as an attempt to manipulate the stock market; a measure that would both overshadow Trump's
failure in Iraq and save Boeing from bankruptcy.
I didn't find the article on TASS. Maybe it was in its Russian version, or in its
TV/Radio/Podcast version.
I don't discard a terrorist attack from the inside, or sabotage of the plane by the
Ukrainian government. What I think is missile attack can be pretty much discarded: the
evidence the Iranians already have through their air control data discard any possibility, by
sheer logic alone, that that was the case.
Unless, of course, the Iranians are lying. But then there isn't any cui bono for Iran to
lie about it (if it was a mistake they wanted to cover, they could blame a random independent
militia so as to give plausible deniability) with the technical malfunction argument, and now
Russia's foreign minister Ryabkov is on the boat with it - so I don't see the cui bono for
Russia either.
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted down might not see him. Some of
you choose to draw the magic cap down over your eyes and ears so as to make-believe that
there are no monsters in Iran.
"Some of you choose to draw the magic cap down over your eyes and ears so as to
make-believe that there are no monsters in Iran."
No, it is a lot easier than that.
Most of us dont get paid to post bs about the imperial enemies like you, and most off us
still know how to use our brain.
That is it, nothing more nothing less.
Rob@2 - What do you make of the loss of ADS-B? Could a catastrophic engine failure take out
both power buses? The ADS-B transceiver? I know a the turbine blades turn into little missile
blades when they decide to leave the engine, but I have no idea of the way power is
transferred when either bus or the standby goes down. I assume automatic? Are the transfer
switches anywhere near the engines? Does the APU automatically fire up? I assume the ADS-B
box is in the electronics bay, but where is the antenna?
Thanks b! As I commented towards the end of the previous thread on this topic, the mundane
evidence has already been shown. IMO, if a missile or bomb was employed, the Iranians would
be yelling louder than anyone and the denials would be coming from BigLie Media instead of
accusations. And as I answered psychohistorian, the massive coverage by BigLie media serves
as narrative distraction from what's being obfuscated--casualties taken by Outlaw US Empire
troops and the BDA presented by Iranian Military.
In that regard, The
Saker's update sticks to the important facts of the now escalated ongoing war between
Iran and the Evil Empire.
Sorry, but there's good reasons to suspect foul play - as I and others have explained on the
last thread.
1) Occurs as Iran is on brink of war with USA?; 2) Indications of USA using info war
tactics; 3) airliner owner by Kolomoisky? 4) No communication with tower? 5) USA and Israel
history of duplicity and narrative management (example: MH-17).
<> <> <> <>
Also: IMO it's dangerous for Iran to invite experts from a group of Western countries.
What is likely to happen is that all the Western experts will be pressure to disagree with
Iran's findings. CIA knows that people will believe the "group of experts!" over Iran.
I don't know how anal Iran is about keeping track of ordinance but they must be pretty
certain as to whether they downed the plane or not! Looks like they are being transparent and
open. If they come out of this proving engine failure or something else then this could be a
great pr coup.
There would be a lot of egg on many faces trying to explain how the intelligence is wrong yet
again. I look forward to watching trudeau walk that back. Hopefully!
One explanation is the Boeing was used as a human shield, a military plane hides behind a
slow moving plane when detected. The ukrainians did it with the MH17 and the israeli with the
russian plane and tried it with the attack on damascus. In both cases there was a lot of
dis-info and blaming right away. But the iranian would have known what the target was, and
mentioned it, so very unlikely.
Another question is the possibility a smaller missile only damaged the plane, also very
unlikely.
Head of Iran Civil Aviation Organization Ali Abedzadeh exaggerates: "From a scientific
viewpoint, it is impossible that a missile hit the Ukrainian plane."
"We can say that the airplane, considering the kind of the crash and the pilot's efforts to
return it to Imam Khomeini airport, didn't explode in the air. So, the allegation that it was
hit by missiles is totally ruled out," the official noted.
Dude, when you're in Wyoming and see critter tracks down by the creek, you would assume it
was Martians rather than antelope? Get real. The Ukie blew a crappy GE engine...they have
this characteristic...
Stay real, use Occam's Razor + physical evidence. Otherwise it's distraction and
TBS...
Craig Murray has been tracking a propagandist Wikipedia editor called "Philip Cross", here
is the main article, but there are others on his site The Philip Cross
Affair
ICAO is in contact with the States involved and will assist them if called upon. Its
leadership is stressing the importance of avoiding speculation into the cause of the tragedy
pending the outcomes of the investigation ...
ICAO may be a worthy organization (some staff changes seem to be warranted), but isn't it
a bit too much?! If this is a sincere wish of democratically elected heads of democratic
nations that they want to form a harmonious chorus and speculate, then no mundane power can
stop them. BTW, what is wrong with Zelensky that he did not join? PTSD after the brutal
telephonies calls? I would add it to the list of proven damages to the security of those
several states that will be debated in the Senate. [end of snark, "several states" is the
entity named in the so-called Constitution of The United States of America].
The flight originated in Teheran, bound for Kiev, but where was it before it arrived in Iran?
It could have been sabotaged anywhere; then easy, right, to set off an onboard bomb by remote
control from the ground? I'm sure Iran is crawling with Mosssad/MI6/CIA spooks.
So you turn a blind eye to atrocities committed by other countries or peoples because the
US government is responsible for the most? Did you even complete your high school education
with that sort of reasoning? I never absolved the US or any other country. Simpletons like
you seem to live in a black and white world in which one side must be chosen over the other.
I feel unfortunate for b or anyone else who frequents this blog who does not view the world
in such a profoundly problematic way.
I am far more informed about Iranian politics, history, culture and religion than most
people here. Please don't allow your hate for the USA, well justified, to cloud your
judgment.
NATO has weaponized aircraft accident investigations. Lawfare in combination with state
terrorism.
It's time for new rules and regulations. ICAO Annex 13 was drafted in different times. A
rule based order is ancient history.
People should be able to chose their destination, route and carrier based on personal
preferences like price and comfort, not on factors like the latest or next conflict zone,
corruption in the countries along the route, military and political adventurism, etc.
- As said before: I didn't believe for one second that that ukrainian plane was shot down. It
would have given the US simply another stick to beat up the iranian government. I assume the
iranians are smart enough to know that. They simply don't want to escalate the situation
more. Although Iran has now the "moral high ground" it is still (very) vulnerable in a number
of ways.
- I think the ukrainian tourists were small traders. I.e. buy stuff e.g. clothing and other
"merchandise" in Teheran, bring it into the Ukraine and then sell that "merchandise" in
Ukraine with a (big) profit.
We have a distinguished professor in our midst! Quite unlike the lowly regular
professors or inconsequential adjunct instructors that normally grace these pages. Let me
kick back and get a tan from the brilliance pouring out of this one! Us high latitude types
have to get our Vitamin D wherever we can.
As for my lack of criticism of Iran's government, that's the business of the Iranian
people and none of my own. The Evil Empire attacking Iran? That, unfortunately, is everyone's
business whether they want it to be or not.
Why is it that these wise guys from the West (Americans mostly) feel it is their duty to
criticize everyone else's governments and cultures when the examples they are setting
themselves are so appallingly bad? Maybe these distinguished critics of other peoples'
ways of life feel that it is easier to fix those other peoples' societies than it is to fix
their own. After all, they apparently feel that fixing other countries just requires some
number of bombs, while fixing their own country... where do they even start? How do you fix
perfection?
I'd be curious to know whether the flight crew on board Flight PS752 had had sufficient rest.
Three hours of resting do not seem like sufficient time but that depends on the journey the
plane made to Tehran, the duration of that journey and where it started. Was the plane also
checked for signs of wear and tear during the three-hour-plus pause?
Are UIA's owners (among them Ihor Kolomoisky) working their employees and hardware assets
too hard and too cheaply as well?
Yes. I think so too. Looks like the engine ran at reduced thrust as they turned, and then
failed entirely at below minimum control speed, with the expected result, asymmetrical stall,
yaw, roll, bang.
There are pictures of severe erosion of what looks like compressor wheel from, presumably,
ingestion of foreign material. Crap on the runway probably, and pencil-whipped maintenance, I
should imagine.
journey80@26 - Kiev is Ukrainian Airlines main hub. The 737 arrived from Kiev earlier that
morning and was returning there.
Jen@36 - No reason to do anything but a cursory safety check at Tehran. The airline's
mechanics are in Kiev - anything beyond a normal pre-flight check involving maintenance would
be done there, not Tehran. I doubt the crew was rested. That's not how UAI rolls on it's hub
round-trips.
UAI is also bleeding money like crazy. They're nearly bankrupt and stole the money they
collect from passengers for the Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority fees. Tens of millions USD.
The new CEO promises to fix everything somehow. I guess by overworking crews, skipping
maintenance and crappy service. Those are always money-savers for cheap, poorly-run airlines
(prior to bankruptcy). Too bad. Supposedly it wasn't that bad of an airline when they first
added passenger service to their existing cargo ops a decade ago, but has been going downhill
ever since.
"Some real gems you got following your blog b." So why are you here?
Ocams razor... bookies odds... planes fall out o the sky from time to time for all sorts of
reasons not related to malicious activity. What are the odds of this occurring in Iran
shortly after an Iran strike on a US base.
The US has and does use terrorist tactics such as shooting down passenger jets. Trump
threatened Iran with retribution against cultural sites and so forth (terrorist actions).
Fifty two targets of fifty two ways of getting back at Iran.
What are the odds US would down a passenger jet in Iran within hours of Iran's strike against
their base.
I have to go with US terrorist actions for that one. Similar to the protests in Iraq. The
people had genuine grievances as do all good color revolutions but the were just too
advantageous for the US for it not to be a made in the US color revolution style protest. We
now know from the Iraq PM that is exactly what it was.
The odds are unrelated unless there's agency. No agency has been credibly proposed. You know
this is so, as the probability maths in se have been discussed previously @ MoA.
But of course, the US does murder all over the place, so if there is agency, then I tend
to agree with the idea that "they" or their cohort in zionishland may be causative. What are
the "odds" that the engine shown has severe blade erosion? Again 100% . Engine swallows scrap
off the tarmac...a dependent relation, drop junk in engine, blades damaged, run at 100%, 100%
"chance" of engine failure.
Repeating the essence of the matter of odds>
"Two events are independent, statistically independent, or stochastically independent if
the occurrence of one does not affect the probability of occurrence of the other
(equivalently, does not affect the odds). Similarly, two random variables are independent if
the realization of one does not affect the probability distribution of the other."
ie without a dependent relationship the odds are whatever the odds are for engine failure
and crash. And the other odds don't exist, because those events, the shooting, was not random
or accidental. The odds of Iran firing rockets in reprisal was dependent on the US attacks,
ie 100%
But if you're building engines at GE, or obsolete defective airplanes in Seattle, then of
course the odds are that you devoutly wish it was a rocket up the tailpipe... Pay-day's come
Friday, and all of that...
I know NYT is a sham, and believe me I held my intellectual nose as I went into its site.
It's not somewhere I frequent at all.
I did think about the point you made too, but there are 2 issues:
1) In the other 2 videos we see the plane as it's already burning, we don't see it in its
"before" state. For me it's reasonable to imagine the hit on the impact caused some initial
burning which was extinguished due to wind, and then started back up again a few moments
after the NYT video ended and before the other 2 videos began.
2) If the NYT video is indeed doctored (and for me it would be a pretty convincing
doctor), why wouldn't the creator simply keep the light going until the end of the vid?
Iran will announce the cause of the Ukrainian Boeing 737 crash after the accident
investigation commission meeting on Saturday, the Fars News agency reported on Thursday,
citing a source familiar with the matter.
"Tomorrow, after the meeting of the civil aviation accident investigation
commission, the cause of the crash of the Ukrainian passenger plane will be announced", the
source said.
Domestic and foreign parties, whose citizens died in the crash, will take part in the
Saturday meeting, the outlet added. They will announce the reason for the accident after
reviewing the preliminary report.
[.]Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko asked that the media not spread "unconfirmed"
information on Friday, pleading with reporters to "reduce the level of speculation" while
the probe continues. The experts are still analyzing evidence, looking at the bodies of the
victims and the wreckage in hope of gaining insight into what took down Ukraine
International Airlines Flight PS752, killing all 176 people on board.[,]
If no one had engaged with nine-drongos the thread would not have been disrupted and perhaps
a useful dialog about the plane crash could have ensued. Those who did swallow the hook are
just as guilty the original whatabouter of making this thread useless - good job. I would say
exercise some discipline but that would be a waste of breath given the insecurities about
their beliefs too many here apparently have. Letting some arsehole spout uninterrupted is a
better indication of your point of view than anger, hysteria or ad hominem. Your stupidity
has caused a thread to fail.
The Ukies know how to obliterate a debris field. MH-17 -- They used artillery for months to
keep OSCE and Dutch officials away, and despite the locals working to protect the deceased
and the debris, body parts have been found years later.
#57 posted by Poor Ramin Mazaheri who works for Press TV and has had many articles published
on The Saker. He would describe the Iranian economy as socialist with Iranian charters. The
link to the article below is an excellent source for information on Iran's economy.
What comes as a surprise to me is ICAO seems to have some integrity. It seems the US and
friends haven't completely taken it over.
You can judge someone by their friends. NATO and the terrorists in Idlib have backed the
killing of Soleimani. Who seems to enjoy killing civilians? The US just droned killed 60
civilians in Afghanistan. Information provided by the Iraqi prime minister showed the US is
willing to use snipers and paid protesters to tear Iraq apart. They utterly destroyed Mosul
and Raqqa without regard for civilians. The Syrian government has tried to avoid civilian
deaths, which is why those who want to cause chaos in the region always accuses them of
targeting civilians. So the US would have no problem getting MEK to or some other group to
shoot the plane down but I'm leaning against that scenario.
The US has been planning to control oil for a long time. In 1975 a feasibility study was
prepared for the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on International
Relations on "Oil fields as military objectives", better described as bringing Democracy to
the Middle East. Well, they did that sorta in Iraq, and now the Iraq government has politely
asked the US to leave and the Iranians have demonstrated to them why they should leave. I'm
not sure if the Ukrainian plane crashing is the next move the US has made in this great game,
but I would put my money on shoddy management of the Ukrainian plane. Why not, the country is
barely functioning. I doubt the plane was hit with a missle. More likely the US can't pass up
an opportunity for stirring trouble and the MSM has no problem memory holing another lie.
Jen Flight PS752 passenger
list shows that the huge majority of passengers carrying Iranian, Canadian and EU passports
were Iranian.
These people were most likely visiting relatives in Iran over Christmas / New Year and were
returning home. They were using UIA because the airline offers cheap flights between North
America, Europe and western Asia with Kiev as a stop-over. Most of these people would have got
off in Kiev and flown back to their home countries on other connecting flights.
Also as far as I know, the plane crashed not long after take-off. That, er, might suggest a
problem with the plane itself. But the Boeing plane is not of the same model as the two Boeing
737 MAX 8 planes that crashed in Indonesia in 2018 and Ethiopia in 2019.
Incidentally there is a new documentary "MH-17: In Search of Truth"
doing the rounds of online alternative news media. The fellow who made the documentary, Vasily
Prozorov, is a former SBU security officer. It makes an interesting claim about the involvement
of Western intelligence agencies and the SBU in creating and carrying out an incident and
distraction, and in controlling and shaping the narrative and the disinformation.
I'm now starting to wonder if there may be a link between the MH17 shoot-down and the
Skripal poisoning incident in March 2018. 3 -1 Reply Jan 9, 2020 9:42 PM
richard le sarc ,
No visual sighting of missile tracks, I see, and the video of the explosion then crash does
not appear to show any. Details, mere details-the presstitute vermin are in full vilification
propaganda mode already.
richard le sarc ,
I'm sorry-Iran ' refuses to hand over the black boxes'???!! To whom? To Bibi Nuttyyahoo,
perhaps? Iran leads the investigation, so they decipher the 'black boxes'. The case of MH17
where the black box information has simply disappeared, tells you what you could expect if
the West ever got their hands on these.
Never mind 9/11 where any blackbox data was most likely fabricated like the planes
themselves.
Yonatan ,
Iran is apparently refusing to hand over the black boxes from the crashed plane.
should be
Under ICAO rules, Iran has no obliation to pass on the black boxes from the crashed plane
to the maker. All it need do is pass them on to any laboratory of its chosing that has ICAO
certification.
Eyewitnesses saw one engine on fire before the crash, the plane still on a glide, but the
737-800 can fly on one engine, others have done so and landed safely.
This leads one to believe this was not a simple "engine on fire" situation.
If indeed it was a shoot-down, it was far enough away from the security-protected area of
the airport, but not so high that a simple manpad-type weapon would be ruled out.
Another option is a small bomb placed in an engine cowl, which could be activated by
altitude sensing or remote control (the plane wasn't very high, and the probable flight path
well known). Big enough device to damage the engine and start a fire and maybe knock out the
shut-off and fire suppression systems, but not big enough to be obvious. The engine fails,
spits out turbine blades which damage the wing and puncture fuel tanks, damage the avionics
for the whole plane. Rotor speeds will be in the multiple-10,000s RPM, so a LOT of kinetic
energy when these things come apart.
Cui bono? The obvious answer is the Deep State Zionists in Israel and the US, so this may
have been a Mossad operation, with or without the knowledge of the CIA or US military.
The fact Trumpty Dumbdy is playing the "deescalation card" so strongly could indicate he
didn't authorize it and hopes to stop Nuttyyahoo/Mossad from frog-marching him into a war
that would lose him the next election for being a flip-flopper on his last election "end the
endless proxy wars" rhetoric.
"By deception shall you do war"... the Mossad mission statement.
If US officials claim they are "confident", that actually means they don't have a shred of
evidence. Intelligence lingo.
It's too early to call but POTUS claims Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737 near Tehran. On
CBS fake News they suggest that the US have satellite imagery showing two SAM launches right
before the crash.
Almost six years down the road we are still waiting for the MH17 satellite imagery that
exist according to John Kerry. He was lying or the images and the narrative don't match.
Hint: the second option.
To prevent crashing airliners, PSYOPS, sanctions, fake trials etc. steer well clear of the
Ukraine, Ukrainians, Ukrainian airspace, the Ukrainian army, Ukrainian missiles and Ukrainian
planes. You don't want to touch the Ukraine, not even with a very long stick.
We can be confident (in the normal sense of the word) that Bellingcat will be involved.
Those NATO sponsored citizen propagandist will spend countless hours doctoring "evidence" and
spinning neocon lies to their heart's content.
It must have been a Russian BUK that was driven on the back of a trailer by Putin's niece
all the way from Kursk to Tehran, a direct order from the Kremlin!
In Turkey the trailer almost overran Bana Alabed and evil Assad provided some Novichok
along the way to coat the throttles of the 737 in case the missile wouldn't hit its intended
target. Boeing 737's don't fall from the sky on their own.
A fact finding mission from the OPCW has left The Hague for Tehran, they might even find
some cannisters containing chlorine in the wreckage. It looks like they dropped from the air,
they were not placed there manually.
The Dutch Safety Board is 100% independent from NATO influence and could conduct the
accident investigation in an impartial way. No conflict of interest whatsoever.
The Ukraine will be part of the Joint Investigation Team that does the criminal
investigation and to assure everything will be done according to law they will even get a
veto right over the investigation.
Iran can be confident that justice will be served.
The Ukraine wants to do the 737 accident investigation. Why? To delegate it to the Dutch, get
Bellingcat involved and blame it on Russia?
I am sure Bellingcat will find some shitty video online of a Russian Buk that backed up
all the way from Kursk to Tehran without nobody else noticing it. Putin's niece was driving
it by direct order from the Kremlin!
Mike Pence will blame Iran for MH17 and Iraq will be sanctioned for it. Don't you just love the rule based order?
Journalist Alexander Petrakov in his article he stated that the Russian Federation is a lot
of evidence of innocence Russia and militias DND in the collapse of the Malaysian "Boeing".
"Your problem is that you have lived your whole life if there are rules. But there are no
rules." Lorne Malvo (series "Fargo", 2014)
Intelligence agencies recruit pornographers to lead their disinformation operations,
apparently because porn purveyors are so lacking in ethics they will tell public lies about
anything
Optimists probably should not read any further, as well as those who think that the higher
you sit the better you know. As well as pacifists, all those for thom "peace, friendship, and
chewing gum" has the absolute value, some kind of religion. I can't convince those types for
sure.
So I address this article to those who like me understand that it's time to start to think
independently, be skeptical. And do not absorb blindly what TV talk heads are saying, no matter
in what country you currently live and you nationality.
After the terrible catastrophe Malaysian liner we can see two major hypothesis, two points
of views and two "truth": one is Russian position and the second version promoted by Ukraine
and supported by the USA (or vice versa).
Which one you should believe more? The one that promoted by MSM of G7 countries or one that
is promoted Russian MSM by and some other from the "the rest of the world". The answer, in
fact, already evident. The "world-at-large" typically assumes that the "truth" is the view
represented by CNN, Fox News and Euronews. The one that is written on the pages of The New York
Times and republished by referring to "an unnamed source in the state Department" (or our very
special Jen Psaki) Washington Post.
I personally am confident that most of as see that despite is growing evidence of innocence
of rebels in the terrible tragedy the rest of the world these days and hours sees and hears
another, "alternative" hypothesis only.
"Civilized world" talk about "persuasive evidence" of the guilt of the Russian Federation
and the rebels of Donbass. Of evidence, however, is weak and contradictive. But it does not
matter. If you repeat a lie clearly and firmly, with honest eyes on a brave face of various and
sundry talking heads let's say one thousand times - people will say it's the fact; that it is
the axiom based on which events need to interpreted. This isan all trick but it works. "Why,
everybody knows about it", "all about this and they say".
This basic factor here is the power of PR. It is like artillery in was and as Napoleon noted
God is firmly on the side of those with better artillery. Repetition lead to adoption of
information and gradually a person begins to perceive it as his/her own point of view.
Especially if the same information is provided by the whole spectrum of media outlets - TV,
radio, Internet, and newspapers.
The average American, European, Japanese or Australian are brainwashed and belave that the
rebels robbed the dead people on the aircraft and then cash credit card dead in Russia. While
adding sure that this is "Russian rebels." As these "Russian rebels" learn or pick up in the
open field access codes, passwords to the cards are for some reason forgotten. And why? In a
democratic and free world video information rules and does not require any critical thinking:
many of wisdom is much grief...
In each of the first CNN necessarily adds that "Russia is hampered the investigation", but
it owes "effective and really help Ukraine," and that it "remained days or even hours, to show
good will".
How can "interfere" investigation on foreign territory nobody elaborates. And why...
everything is clear.
Then this phantasmagoria was added to the story of the companies Dutch and Malay over which
bogumiles... and again refrain is "Russian".
From the first day of Maidan in the focus of the world media was not Ukraine, and Russia -
all of us. Saying "Russia", "Russian" we have formed a new image in the eyes of the whole
world". First it was the image of aggressor, now it is the image of criminal, terrorist. Not
only conqueror, but the murderer.
And we are from the last bum up to the first person in the state did not understand, did not
want to understand that our actions, words, "signals" nothing depends on it. Because no matter
what he says and does Putin. It is important that will show and tell CNN.
Imagine that you are playing chess. On the table is a chess Board, the figures are placed in
the proper order. You sit down and make a move, then another. All as it should be. And your
opponent starts to move the pieces in random order. Then do sweeps them away from the Board and
yells at the whole audience that he won, and you're a cheater and a crook, but when you open
your mouth begins to beat you Board on the head.
So even if the Kremlin together wore embroidered shirts and jumped around the flag "right
sector, the world would have seen more. That will show and tell him free and NeroLive media.
That's why I did not believe and do not believe that our "restraint" someone and something to
"keep" and anybody, and I will convince.
We talked about the inhumanity, the horrors of the moods of Nazism in Ukraine elites in the
US and Europe. Told those who everyone knows and understands. And who simply don't care. This
same "Russians" harness, hammer, rape, blow up, shoot... the "Russian barbarians", not
"civilized people".
Maidan created the project "Banderovskiy-oligarachat" in Ukraine" and far right nationists
were allowed to do this by the west and after the victory pumped hatred to Russia to the skies.
To suspteinit they badly need a flase flag operation like MH17 to present Russians as the
monsters.
Unfortunately Russia was caught by this false flag operation with hands down and initially
tired to play by the rules of the normal world. But that faith that the West will dela tih
Russia bases on common rules applicable in notmal world fell a few days ago from a height of 10
km and shattered into many tiny fragments.
Ukraine IMHO originally I wrote about this in March, April, may and not designed it as a
trap. It might be an unfortunate incident due to decrepit state of Ukrainian air defense forces
(but the question why they moved them to this area remain in this case unanswered). But as soon
the shooing happened the plan emerge to blame it on Russia. To present it as an act of genocide
by Russian mercenaries.
But most importantly, it was to become a stage on which the imagies of the wreckage were
used to project the horror and disgust on Russia. They want to punish, to destroy us any cost
and any methods from economic to military.
We tried to convince ourselves of the last already strength (and many still do)that any -
even the most secret of our intervention, give a reason for the aggression against us. As if it
were a "pretext" for example, you cannot create a virtual, on the computer and then show around
the world. Or not to create artificially: blowing up the plane, the train, the city, nuclear
will dance...
Remember, as Secretary Powell was shaking in the UN powder with Siberian ulcer" from Saddam.
"The plague" was then washing powder. The country was bombed to the stage of democracy, and
Powell... apologized sparingly in his memoirs.
Remember about the plots of terrible Serbian concentration camps in 1994, in Srebrenica.
It's people came out in Europe on the streets and demanded to bomb, to punish, to stop. When
the "bombed, punished, stopped, it became clear that terrible place belonged... to Bosnian
Muslims of Izetbegovica, and dying people were just Serb prisoners. At that time anybody
especially did not even apologize.
Finally, remember about the shocking footage of atrocities troops Gaddafi, killing women,
children and the elderly. Already when Gaddafi was executed so that the footage was dashed
against this background, and Libya drowned in real blood, it turned out that all the
"atrocities" were shot in Qatar at a local Studio. Filmed venerable Hollywood Directors "at the
request of the sheikhs".
Why the attack with "Boeing". No, this is not an excuse to enter NATO troops (it different
enough to sign a bilateral agreement on military assistance, and then to show images of the
"Russian occupation of Kyiv"). This is a PR-move, information technology.
In the history blown up with "Boeing" are three possible answers, but the whole world hears
only one - it blew up "Russians" militias and the Russian Federation, we all are responsible
for that. No matter what the investigation has just begun, which is not examined a "black
boxes". Tube Powell is already lying on the table Obama, and the "free media" ready to show
people the terrible Serbian concentration camp".
Russian experts have already talked about all the falsifications. Posted we have trumps,
evidence. Only the world could see and hear more. About "Russian", nadrugalas over the dead and
robbed them. And about the "Russian" the terrorists of Donbass.
The testimony of our experts, Ministers, diplomats referred to as "doubtful" and "require
additional verification". Brad Avakov, screeching Poroshenko and all the hysteria over the
possessed Yatseniuk called "serious" and "convincing" evidence. It's hard, it's really not want
to believe we are living by the rules that don't exist. But it is a reality. And other reality
and never will.
The verdict is still pending, but already discussed future sanctions and made the first
proposal for "punishing Russia". Began policy - real and cynical, as usual.
What will be after the judgment has already announced the verdict?
Kiev junta now at the level of negotiations with heads of state and official requests of the
international organization requires to recognize the militias and their educated patterns -
terrorist network. As soon as the version on the guilt of the rebels is recognized by the
Western countries, LNR and DND declared outside the law from the point of view of the
international law.
Then Ukraine will likely together with one of the permanent members of the UN security
Council (USA, France or the United Kingdom) requests to enter into the conflict zone "blue
helmets of the United Nations, but not for peace, and for "police" transactions - by analogy
with African countries, where the UN staff often help governments to disarm or destroy
terrorist groups. No "cultivation and separation of the parties in such cases is not
performed.
The composition of the police corps, representatives of Russia, as we all understanding,
will not turn on. We now state - sponsor and accomplice of terrorists." As Iran, for
example.
How many will vote for our country - I don't know and guess not want. If you support a
resolution sadly, the South-East will be cleared by the Ukrainian guards and legalized under
the UN flag armies of Western countries. Around the Crimea they will also be created land and
then Maritime cordon.
If you use the right of veto, the world media will announce that we are "proved" his guilt
and continue to cover terrorists and murderers".
Sanctions against Russia in any of these scenarios would multiply and they will be really
ambitious, hard and long. States sponsoring terrorism "South stream" is not build and Mistral
they do not sell. And we are so seriously to sanctions not prepared, more talked about it on
TV. Of course, we will survive, but we have very hard and difficult.
Ukraine will begin to arm to the teeth as she bids to join NATO despite the fact that NATO
Charter prohibits to NATO countries with unsolved territorial problems from joining. They will
assign the status of associate member bloc.
But nothing is finished. Because first we were framed as aggressors. And the rest of the
world believed. Now we were framed as terrorists. And as soon as the "civilized world" would
believe it will become a logical last move: to put us beasts.
"It remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world
war
"the Plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no
investigation, no one needs it
in the blog print version
The expert debate about Boeing will now be about how many demons can fit on the tip of a
needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US
administration, while avoiding a world war.
All the latest news about the investigation of the disaster over the Donbass say only one
thing: everything is clear, but the problems are still ahead.
The main theses are as follows: the plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident,
there will be no investigation, no one needs it. I'll explain in more detail.
A lot has been said about the information war: the Americans started it, and they are now
out of it, sadly. There is no point in sorting through the array of objective evidence –
we must give the American side the opportunity to get out of all this with honor, because if
the United States does not succeed, we will all again face the threat of total war.
One
Never and under no circumstances will the Ukrainian side make public its means of objective
control, if they exist at all. Most likely, they have already been destroyed. Recognition of
the randomness of the shot – however it may be classified-is the last chance for the US
to get out of the dirty Ukrainian swamp. Yes, an accident, it happens in war. But it needs to
be explained to a Western audience.
And if it is impossible to understand, then you just have to remember: the Ukrainian army
shoots where it wants and what it wants to objects. And sometimes nowhere at all.
Let me remind you that in old Yugoslavia for a long time hunted for the officers of the
Serbian artillery, which with a rare drunk once (!) shot in the direction of Croatian
Dubrovnik. They were found ten years later and sent to the Hague. Why? Because the Croatian
side in time declared everywhere where reached, including UNESCO in which list the
city-monument Dubrovnik is entered, about atrocities of the Serbian artillery.
Two
Yes, we are all here at the level of unfunny jokes know that the Ukrainian rocket, if you send
it to the plane, will definitely fly to the tree. And vice versa. For those who were born and
raised in the Soviet Union, this is a given. But the Westerner has to prove it and explain it.
He, a Westerner, used to think that if a guy could speak APE English fluently, even if he had a
strong accent, he was still our local guy. So it was with Saakashvili and Yushchenko. They were
also married to Western ladies. And then with Yatsenyuk Turchynov, tied to both the American
sect. They're twice their own.
The guy from the West used to think that if the missile system is put on combat duty, it is
worth something. He can not explain that for twenty-three years, the Ukrainian army conducted
only one air defense exercise – in 2001. And it ended up being shot down over the Black
sea by a Russian plane. After that, no (!) and never (!) there were no exercises in
Ukraine.
Three
References to the war in South Ossetia, in which it was the Ukrainian crews of "Buks" perfectly
proved themselves by shooting down four Russian objects under the Georgian obscene hooting,
also do not work. Georgians with great difficulty found across Ukraine two crews for all the
same "Buks", whose commanders of calculations were Americans of Polish origin.
Most of these brave Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners after the war 08.08.08 died under unclear
circumstances, and the survivors were drunk (the city of Stryi, Lviv region, the former air
defense base of the Carpathian military district of the USSR armed forces). And no one has
tried to train the new crews as unnecessary.
Inventory of missiles, by the way, no one held, and it did not make sense, because the missiles
were sold right and left, and that is especially sinful-it is to the left, that is, to
countries that the same US declare "outcasts". Target capture guidance system-a complex thing,
" Buk " is able to simultaneously conduct up to 24 goals, and it is not clear what exactly saw
on the radar specific lad.
Four
The Boeing could give additional signals. It could be untried equipment, which will now be
difficult to admit to the Malaysian airline.
Even if the "Boeing" shone an additional beacon-it could cause the launch of the rocket. And
there were several objects on the radar that were moving towards the war zone – here a
spontaneous launch of a missile is more than possible. During the cold war, passenger planes
were very often used for reconnaissance purposes, loading them with photographic equipment.
This, of course, is not our case, and the times are quite different – satellites fly with
impunity, but still no one has yet shown how perfect was the plane itself, its crew and strange
course.
Five
By the way, the base of American drones working for the Kiev government is located in Kanatovo
near Dnepropetrovsk, just in the area of the flight of the "Boeing". This is an old abandoned
Soviet air force base of those that grew sunflowers by the end of the 90's.
But recently there arrived Americans, all rebuilt, and now this former collective farm field is
called the 66th separate brigade of the air force of Ukraine, although from the Ukrainian there
are only signs and dogs. Live there American military, and are based only American drones, of
which two have already been shot down. The first – in the spring on Perekop Russian
fighter, the second-over Donetsk militia, and it almost entirely fell into their hands.
For the United States, the explanation of all that has happened is a kind of unintentional
accident, or even better-the synergy of many accidents-almost the only way to calmly and
technically get out of the game.
Technically, you just need to "chat" for a couple of weeks. And then the evidence from the
"black boxes" will not be so relevant, and in General the whole story will be erased from
memory, perhaps against the background of other circumstances.
Six
But it will not be possible to talk about the circumstances of what is happening in Novorossiya
at all. Many found this place on the map. Many began to watch the news. And there, for example,
the tone of CNN correspondents radically changed after they got access to Lugansk and Donetsk
on the tail of Malaysian representatives.
No Western journalist had been in the combat zone for three months, and now they were
impartially reporting live that civilians were being killed, that heavy artillery fire was
being fired from Ukrainian positions on residential areas, and, most interestingly, the
presenters in the Studio never interrupted them. And this on CNN and Foxnews do at times. But
now the words are accompanied by a picture of the bodies of apparently civilians torn apart.
And just like that, even Christian Amanpour won't interrupt anyone.
Seven
Most likely, it is the discussion of the set of accidents that led to the missile salvo that
will soon become dominant. A half-trained or even never-learned APE with a grenade sat at the
controls. She didn't identify the objects.
The fighter that accompanied (or whatever he was doing with this "Boeing", did not push out of
the track?), seeing the rocket, was forced to make the same emergency evasion maneuver, which
indicates the objective data of Russian surveillance-he abruptly went up to the limit and even
beyond the height.
Something on several radars, presumably defined as a "small-sized, high-speed flying object",
that is, a fighter, not a UFO, made a routine maneuver to evade a missile salvo from the
ground. So taught in the Soviet flight schools. All Ukrainian pilots came out of the same
greatcoat.
Scholastic dispute about whether it was exactly " Buk " or the old C-200, which is also the
same 25 years of vodka brewed, does not make sense. Good people who are leading this highly
professional dispute, come from some ideal circumstances, forgetting that all this-Ukraine.
The salvo was obviously spontaneous, and this-again-is the only thing that will save the West
now.
* * *
But we will never hear or see this, because no one will drown Poroshenko now, he will drown
himself in two or three months. The American security service is forced to "keep a face",
because Barack Obama first said, and then there was objective tracking data, and how to get out
of this – no one knows.
Further expert debate will be about how many demons can fit on the tip of the needle. Everyone
is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while
avoiding a world war.
It is in the interest of world peace to ensure that the investigation into the deaths of nearly
300 people is delayed as long as possible. And then it was forgotten.
Is it possible? Yes, perhaps. We did not see the unfortunate relatives storming the building of
Schiphol airport, although relatively recently the same crowd almost demolished the government
of Malaysia because of the unknown where the disappeared similar "Boeing".
European governments can make sure that the relatives of the victims stop asking questions.
Although they, those who lost loved ones, could be the driving force of the entire
investigation. It's very cynical, Yes. But what other choice is there?."It remains to figure
out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war "the Plane was shot
down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no investigation, no one needs it
in the blog print version
The expert debate about Boeing will now be about how many demons can fit on the tip of a
needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US
administration, while avoiding a world war.
All the latest news about the investigation of the disaster over the Donbass say only one
thing: everything is clear, but the problems are still ahead.
The main theses are as follows: the plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident,
there will be no investigation, no one needs it. I'll explain in more detail.
A lot has been said about the information war: the Americans started it, and they are now out
of it, sadly. There is no point in sorting through the array of objective evidence – we
must give the American side the opportunity to get out of all this with honor, because if the
United States does not succeed, we will all again face the threat of total war.
One
Never and under no circumstances will the Ukrainian side make public its means of objective
control, if they exist at all. Most likely, they have already been destroyed. Recognition of
the randomness of the shot – however it may be classified-is the last chance for the US
to get out of the dirty Ukrainian swamp. Yes, an accident, it happens in war. But it needs to
be explained to a Western audience.
And if it is impossible to understand, then you just have to remember: the Ukrainian army
shoots where it wants and what it wants to objects. And sometimes nowhere at all.
Let me remind you that in old Yugoslavia for a long time hunted for the officers of the Serbian
artillery, which with a rare drunk once (!) shot in the direction of Croatian Dubrovnik. They
were found ten years later and sent to the Hague. Why? Because the Croatian side in time
declared everywhere where reached, including UNESCO in which list the city-monument Dubrovnik
is entered, about atrocities of the Serbian artillery.
Two
Yes, we are all here at the level of unfunny jokes know that the Ukrainian rocket, if you send
it to the plane, will definitely fly to the tree. And vice versa. For those who were born and
raised in the Soviet Union, this is a given. But the Westerner has to prove it and explain it.
He, a Westerner, used to think that if a guy could speak APE English fluently, even if he had a
strong accent, he was still our local guy. So it was with Saakashvili and Yushchenko. They were
also married to Western ladies. And then with Yatsenyuk Turchynov, tied to both the American
sect. They're twice their own.
The guy from the West used to think that if the missile system is put on combat duty, it is
worth something. He can not explain that for twenty-three years, the Ukrainian army conducted
only one air defense exercise – in 2001. And it ended up being shot down over the Black
sea by a Russian plane. After that, no (!) and never (!) there were no exercises in
Ukraine.
Three
References to the war in South Ossetia, in which it was the Ukrainian crews of "Buks" perfectly
proved themselves by shooting down four Russian objects under the Georgian obscene hooting,
also do not work. Georgians with great difficulty found across Ukraine two crews for all the
same "Buks", whose commanders of calculations were Americans of Polish origin.
Most of these brave Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners after the war 08.08.08 died under unclear
circumstances, and the survivors were drunk (the city of Stryi, Lviv region, the former air
defense base of the Carpathian military district of the USSR armed forces). And no one has
tried to train the new crews as unnecessary.
Inventory of missiles, by the way, no one held, and it did not make sense, because the missiles
were sold right and left, and that is especially sinful-it is to the left, that is, to
countries that the same US declare "outcasts". Target capture guidance system-a complex thing,
" Buk " is able to simultaneously conduct up to 24 goals, and it is not clear what exactly saw
on the radar specific lad.
Four
The Boeing could give additional signals. It could be untried equipment, which will now be
difficult to admit to the Malaysian airline.
Even if the "Boeing" shone an additional beacon-it could cause the launch of the rocket. And
there were several objects on the radar that were moving towards the war zone – here a
spontaneous launch of a missile is more than possible. During the cold war, passenger planes
were very often used for reconnaissance purposes, loading them with photographic equipment.
This, of course, is not our case, and the times are quite different – satellites fly with
impunity, but still no one has yet shown how perfect was the plane itself, its crew and strange
course.
Five
By the way, the base of American drones working for the Kiev government is located in Kanatovo
near Dnepropetrovsk, just in the area of the flight of the "Boeing". This is an old abandoned
Soviet air force base of those that grew sunflowers by the end of the 90's.
But recently there arrived Americans, all rebuilt, and now this former collective farm field is
called the 66th separate brigade of the air force of Ukraine, although from the Ukrainian there
are only signs and dogs. Live there American military, and are based only American drones, of
which two have already been shot down. The first – in the spring on Perekop Russian
fighter, the second-over Donetsk militia, and it almost entirely fell into their hands.
For the United States, the explanation of all that has happened is a kind of unintentional
accident, or even better-the synergy of many accidents-almost the only way to calmly and
technically get out of the game.
Technically, you just need to "chat" for a couple of weeks. And then the evidence from the
"black boxes" will not be so relevant, and in General the whole story will be erased from
memory, perhaps against the background of other circumstances.
Six
But it will not be possible to talk about the circumstances of what is happening in Novorossiya
at all. Many found this place on the map. Many began to watch the news. And there, for example,
the tone of CNN correspondents radically changed after they got access to Lugansk and Donetsk
on the tail of Malaysian representatives.
No Western journalist had been in the combat zone for three months, and now they were
impartially reporting live that civilians were being killed, that heavy artillery fire was
being fired from Ukrainian positions on residential areas, and, most interestingly, the
presenters in the Studio never interrupted them. And this on CNN and Foxnews do at times. But
now the words are accompanied by a picture of the bodies of apparently civilians torn apart.
And just like that, even Christian Amanpour won't interrupt anyone.
Seven
Most likely, it is the discussion of the set of accidents that led to the missile salvo that
will soon become dominant. A half-trained or even never-learned APE with a grenade sat at the
controls. She didn't identify the objects.
The fighter that accompanied (or whatever he was doing with this "Boeing", did not push out of
the track?), seeing the rocket, was forced to make the same emergency evasion maneuver, which
indicates the objective data of Russian surveillance-he abruptly went up to the limit and even
beyond the height.
Something on several radars, presumably defined as a "small-sized, high-speed flying object",
that is, a fighter, not a UFO, made a routine maneuver to evade a missile salvo from the
ground. So taught in the Soviet flight schools. All Ukrainian pilots came out of the same
greatcoat.
Scholastic dispute about whether it was exactly " Buk " or the old C-200, which is also the
same 25 years of vodka brewed, does not make sense. Good people who are leading this highly
professional dispute, come from some ideal circumstances, forgetting that all this-Ukraine.
The salvo was obviously spontaneous, and this-again-is the only thing that will save the West
now.
* * *
But we will never hear or see this, because no one will drown Poroshenko now, he will drown
himself in two or three months. The American security service is forced to "keep a face",
because Barack Obama first said, and then there was objective tracking data, and how to get out
of this – no one knows.
Further expert debate will be about how many demons can fit on the tip of the needle. Everyone
is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while
avoiding a world war.
It is in the interest of world peace to ensure that the investigation into the deaths of nearly
300 people is delayed as long as possible. And then it was forgotten.
Is it possible? Yes, perhaps. We did not see the unfortunate relatives storming the building of
Schiphol airport, although relatively recently the same crowd almost demolished the government
of Malaysia because of the unknown where the disappeared similar "Boeing".
European governments can make sure that the relatives of the victims stop asking questions.
Although they, those who lost loved ones, could be the driving force of the entire
investigation. It's very cynical, Yes. But what other choice is there?
"... Bellingcat is an alleged group of amateur on-line researchers who have spent years shilling for the U.S. instigated war against the Syrian government, blaming the Douma chemical attack and others on the Assad government, and for the anti-Russian propaganda connected to, among other things, the Skripal poisoning case in England, and the downing of flight MH17 plane in Ukraine. ..."
"... The Intercept , along with its parent company First Look Media, recently hosted a workshop for pro-war, Google-funded organization Bellingcat in New York. The workshop, which cost $2,500 per person to attend and lasted five days, aimed to instruct participants in how to perform investigations using "open source" tools -- with Bellingcat's past, controversial investigations for use as case studies Thus, while The Intercept has long publicly promoted itself as an anti-interventionist and progressive media outlet, it is becoming clearer that – largely thanks to its ties to Omidyar – it is increasingly an organization that has more in common with Bellingcat, a group that launders NATO and U.S. propaganda and disguises it as "independent" and "investigative journalism." ..."
In the 1920s, the influential American intellectual Walter Lippman argued that the average
person was incapable of seeing or understanding the world clearly and needed to be guided by
experts behind the social curtain. In a number of books he laid out the theoretical foundations
for the practical work of Edward Bernays , who developed "public relations" (aka propaganda) to
carry out this task for the ruling elites. Bernays had honed his skills while working as a
propagandist for the United States during World War I, and after the war he set himself up as a
public relations counselor in New York City.
There is a fascinating exchange at the beginning of Adam Curtis's documentary, The
Century of Self , where Bernays, then nearly 100 years old but still very sharp, reveals
his manipulative mindset and that of so many of those who have followed in his wake. He says
the reason he couldn't call his new business "propaganda" was because the Germans had given
propaganda a "bad name," and so he came up with the euphemism "public relations." He then adds
that "if you could use it [i.e. propaganda] for war, you certainly could use it for peace." Of
course, he never used PR for peace but just to manipulate public opinion (he helped engineer
the CIA coup against the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954 with
fake news broadcasts). He says "the Germans gave propaganda a bad name," not Bernays and the
United States with their vast campaign of lies, mainly aimed at the American people to get
their support for going to a war they opposed (think weapons of mass destruction). He sounds
proud of his war propaganda work that resounded to his credit since it led to support for the
"war to end all wars" and subsequently to a hit movie about WWI , Yankee Doodle Dandy
, made in 1942 to promote another war, since the first one somehow didn't achieve its lofty
goal.
As Bernays has said in his book Propaganda ,
The American motion picture is the greatest unconscious carrier of propaganda in the world
today.
He was a propagandist to the end. I suspect most viewers of the film are taken in by these
softly spoken words of an old man sipping a glass of wine at a dinner table with a woman who is
asking him questions. I have shown this film to hundreds of students and none has noticed his
legerdemain. It is an example of the sort of hocus-pocus I will be getting to shortly, the sly
insertion into seemingly liberal or matter-of-fact commentary of statements that imply a
different story. The placement of convincing or confusing disingenuous ingredients into a truth
sandwich – for Bernays knew that the bread of truth is essential to conceal untruth.
In the following years, Bernays, Lippman, and their ilk were joined by social "scientists,"
psychologists, and sundry others intent on making a sham out of the idea of democracy by
developing strategies and techniques for the engineering of social consensus consonant with the
wishes of the ruling classes. Their techniques of propaganda developed exponentially with the
development of technology, the creation of the CIA, its infiltration of all the major media,
and that agency's courting of what the CIA official Cord Meyer called in the 1950s "the
compatible left," having already had the right in its pocket. Today most people are, as is
said, "wired," and they get their information from the electronic media that is mostly
controlled by giant corporations in cahoots with government propagandists. Ask yourself: Has
the power of the oligarchic, permanent warfare state with its propaganda and spy networks
increased or decreased over your lifetime. The answer is obvious: the average people that
Lippman and Bernays trashed are losing and the ruling elites are winning.
This is not just because powerful propagandists are good at controlling so-called "average"
people's thinking, but, perhaps more importantly, because they are also adept – probably
more so – at confusing or directing the thinking of those who consider themselves above
average, those who still might read a book or two or have the concentration to read multiple
articles that offer different perspectives on a topic. This is what some call the professional
and intellectual classes, perhaps 15-20 % of the population, most of whom are not the ruling
elites but their employees and sometimes their mouthpieces. It is this segment of the
population that considers itself "informed," but the information they imbibe is often sprinkled
with bits of misdirection, both intentional and not, that beclouds their understanding of
important public matters but leaves them with the false impression that they are in the
know.
Recently I have noticed a group of interconnected examples of how this group of the
population that exerts influence incommensurate with their numbers has contributed to the
blurring of lines between fact and fiction. Within this group there are opinion makers who are
often journalists, writers, and cultural producers of some sort or other, and then the larger
number of the intellectual or schooled class who follow their opinions. This second group then
passes on their received opinions to those who look up to them.
There is a notorious propaganda outfit called Bellingcat , started by an unemployed
Englishman named Eliot Higgins, that has been funded by The Atlantic Council, a think-tank with
deep ties to the U.S. government, NATO, war manufacturers, and their allies, and the National
Endowment for Democracy (NED), another infamous U.S. front organization heavily involved in
so-called color revolution regime change operations all around the world, that has just won the
International Emmy Award for best documentary. The film with the Orwellian title, Bellingcat: Truth in a Post-Truth World, received its Emmy at a recent ceremony in New
York City.
Bellingcat is an alleged group of amateur on-line researchers who have spent years
shilling for the U.S. instigated war against the Syrian government, blaming the Douma chemical
attack and others on the Assad government, and for the anti-Russian propaganda connected to,
among other things, the Skripal poisoning case in England, and the downing of flight MH17 plane
in Ukraine.
It has been lauded by the corporate mainstream media in the west. Its support for
the equally fraudulent White Helmets (also funded by the US and the UK) in Syria has also been
praised by the western corporate media while being dissected as propaganda by many excellent
independent journalists such as Eva Bartlett, Vanessa Beeley, Catte Black, among others. It's
had its work skewered by the likes of Seymour Hersh and MIT professor Theodore Postol, and its
US government connections pointed out by many others, including Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal
at The Gray Zone. And now we have the mainstream media's wall of silence on the leaks from the
Organization for the Prohibition on Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concerning the Douma chemical
attack and the doctoring of their report that led to the illegal U.S. bombing of Syria in the
spring of 2018. Bellingcat was at the forefront of providing justification for such bombing,
and now the journalists Peter Hitchens, Tareq Harrad (who recently resigned from Newsweek after accusing the publication of suppressing his revelations about the OPCW
scandal) and others are fighting an uphill battle to get the truth out.
Yet Bellingcat: Truth in a Post-Truth World won the Emmy , fulfilling Bernays'
point about films being the greatest unconscious carriers of propaganda in the world today.
Who presented the Emmy Award to the film makers, but none other than the rebel journalist
Chris Hedges . Why he did so, I don't know. But that he did so clearly sends a message to those
who follow his work and trust him that it's okay to give a major cultural award to a propaganda
outfit. But then, perhaps he doesn't consider Bellingcat to be that.
Nor, one presumes, does The Intercept , the billionaire Pierre Omidyar owned
publication associated with Glen Greenwald and Jeremy Scahill, and also read by many
progressive-minded people. The Intercept that earlier this year disbanded the small
team that was tasked with reviewing and releasing more of the massive trove of documents they
received from Edward Snowden six years ago, a minute number of which have ever been released or
probably ever will be. As
Whitney Webb pointed out , last year The Intercept hosted a workshop for
Bellingcat. She wrote:
The Intercept , along with its parent company First Look Media, recently
hosted a workshop for pro-war, Google-funded organization Bellingcat in New York. The
workshop, which
cost $2,500 per person to attend and lasted five days, aimed to instruct participants in
how to perform investigations using "open source" tools -- with Bellingcat's past, controversial
investigations for use as case studies Thus, while The Intercept has long
publicly promoted itself as an anti-interventionist and progressive media outlet, it is
becoming clearer that – largely thanks to its ties to Omidyar – it is
increasingly an organization that has more in common with Bellingcat, a group that launders
NATO and U.S. propaganda and disguises it as "independent" and "investigative
journalism."
Then we have Jefferson Morley , the editor of The Deep State, former Washington
Post journalist, and JFK assassination researcher, who has written a praiseworthy review of the
Bellingcat film and who supports Bellingcat. "In my experience, Bellingcat is credible," he
writes in an Alternet article, "Bellingcat
documentary has the pace and plot of a thriller."
Morley has also just written an article for Counterpunch –
"Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn't a 'Managed Massacre'" – in which he disputes
the claim that the April 7, 2018 attack in the Damascus suburb was a false flag operation
carried out by Assad's opponents. "I do not see any evidence proving that Douma was a false
flag incident," he writes in this article that is written in a style that leaves one guessing
as to what exactly he is saying. It sounds convincing unless one concentrates, and then his
double messages emerge. Yet it is the kind of article that certain "sophisticated" left-wing
readers might read and feel is insightful. But then Morley, who has written considerably about
the CIA, edits a website that advertises itself as "the thinking person's portal to the world
of secret government," and recently had an exchange with former CIA Director John Brennan where
"Brennan put a friendly finger on my chest," said in February 2017, less than a month after
Trump was sworn in as president, that:
With a docile Republican majority in Congress and a demoralized Democratic Party in
opposition, the leaders of the Deep State are the most -- perhaps the only -- credible check
in Washington on what Senator Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) calls Trump's "
wrecking ball presidency ."
Is it any wonder that some people might be a bit confused?
"I know what you're thinking about," said Tweedledum; "but it isn't so, nohow."
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it
would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
As a final case in point, there is a recent book by Stephen Kinzer , Poisoner in Chief:
Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control, t he story of the chemist known as
Dr. Death who ran the CIA's MK-ULTRA mind control project, using LSD, torture, electric shock
therapy, hypnosis, etc.; developed sadistic methods of torture still used in black sites around
the world; and invented various ingenious techniques for assassination, many of which were
aimed at Fidel Castro. Gottlieb was responsible for brutal prison and hospital experiments and
untold death and suffering inflicted on all sorts of innocent people. His work was depraved in
the deepest sense; he worked with Nazis who experimented on Jews despite being Jewish
himself.
Kinzer writes in depth about this man who considered himself a patriot and a spiritual
person – a humane torturer and killer. It is an eye-opening book for anyone who does not
know about Gottlieb, who gave the CIA the essential tools they use in their "organized crime"
activities around the world – in the words of Douglass Valentine, the author of The
CIA as Organized Crime and The Phoenix Program . Kinzer's book is good history on
Gottlieb; however, he doesn't venture into the present activities of the CIA and Gottlieb's
patriotic followers, who no doubt exist and go about their business in secret.
After recounting in detail the sordid history of Gottlieb's secret work that is nauseating
to read about, Kinzer leaves the reader with these strange words:
Gottlieb was not a sadist, but he might well have been . Above all he was an instrument of
history. Understanding him is a deeply disturbing way of understanding ourselves.
What possibly could this mean? Not a sadist? An instrument of history? Understanding
ourselves? These few sentences, dropped out of nowhere, pull the rug out from under what is
generally an illuminating history and what seems like a moral indictment. This language is pure
mystification.
Kinzer also concludes that because Gottlieb said so, the CIA failed in their efforts to
develop methods of mind control and ended MK-ULTRA's experiments long ago. Why would he believe
the word of a man who personified the agency he worked for: a secret liar? He writes,
When Sydney Gottlieb brough MK-ULTRA to its end in the early 1960s, he told his CIA
superiors that he had found no reliable way to wipe away memory, make people abandon their
consciences, or commit crimes and then forget them.
As for those who might think otherwise, Kinzer suggests they have vivid imaginations and are
caught up in conspiracy thinking: "This [convincing others that the CIA had developed methods
of mind control when they hadn't] is Sydney Gottlieb's most unexpected legacy," he asserts. He
says this although Richard Helms, the CIA Director, destroyed all MK-Ultra records. He says
that Allen Dulles, Gottlieb, and Helms themselves were caught up in a complete fantasy about
mind control because they had seen too many movies and read too many books; mind control was
impossible, a failure, a myth, he maintains. It is the stuff of popular culture, entertainment.
In an interview with Chris Hedges, interestingly posted by Jefferson Morley at his website, The Deep State , Hedges agrees with Kinzer. Gottlieb, Dulles, et al. were all deluded.
Mind control was impossible. You couldn't create a Manchurian Candidate; by implication,
someone like Sirhan Sirhan could not have been programmed to be a fake Manchurian Candidate and
to have no memory of what he did, as he claims. He could not have been mind-controlled by the
CIA to perform his part as the seeming assassin of Senator Robert Kennedy while the real killer
shot RFK from behind. People who think like this should get real.
Furthermore, as is so common in books such as Kinzer's, he repeats the canard that JFK and
RFK knew about and pressured the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro. This is demonstrably false,
as shown by the Church Committee and the Assassinations Record Review Board, among many others.
That Kinzer takes the word of notorious liars like Richard Helms and the top-level CIA
operative Samuel Halpern is simple incredible, something that is hard to consider a mistake.
Slipped into a truth sandwich, it is devoured and passed on. But it is false. Bullshit meant to
deceive.
But this is how these games are played. If you look carefully, you will see them widely.
Inform, enlighten, while throwing in doubletalk and untruths. The small number of people who
read such books and articles will come away knowing some history that has no current relevance
and being misinformed on other history that does. They will then be in the know, ready to pass
their "wisdom" on to those who care to listen. They will not think they are average.
But they will be mind controlled, and the killer cat will roam freely without a bell, ready
to devour the unsuspecting mice.
Edward Curtin is a writer whose work has appeared widely. He teaches sociology at
Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His website is http://edwardcurtin.com/
"... With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs. Ukraine becomes a liability to the West as that country continues its slow and agonising collapse. Perhaps in 2020 the Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts may officially declare their independence and apply for inclusion into the Russian Federation, or combine into a new nation. Other adjoining oblasts (Kharkiv?) may follow suit. Transcarpathia oblast in the far west of Ukraine may declare independence and then apply to join Hungary. ..."
Nordstream II should be completed in 2020 in spite of the many handicaps and threats of
sanctions the US has applied against Germany if the pipeline project continues. Its
completion is bound to change the geopolitical landscape in central and eastern Europe
considerably.
With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in
supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs.
Ukraine becomes a liability to the West as that country continues its slow and agonising
collapse. Perhaps in 2020 the Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts may officially declare their
independence and apply for inclusion into the Russian Federation, or combine into a new
nation. Other adjoining oblasts (Kharkiv?) may follow suit. Transcarpathia oblast in the far
west of Ukraine may declare independence and then apply to join Hungary.
Volodymyr Zelensky may not last long as President and is likely to be turfed out in a
coup. Civil war will come again to Ukraine but not in its Russian-speaking east.
Belarus should be monitoring its own southern borders. Maybe crunch-time is coming for
President Lukashenko there as to whether he should align Belarus more closely with Russia or
with the EU instead of trying to get the best of both worlds by playing one against the
other.
My predictions for 2020 are that Ukraine's final collapse and fragmentation will start,
that the use of threats and sanctions continues to isolate the US to its detriment, and that
(maybe, just maybe) the collapse of Ukraine will lead to some of the truth of what actually
happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 becoming public with whistleblowers in the
investigation finally coming forward.
Re Jen @37 "With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in
supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs."
I am hoping this is a bad joke, but perhaps not. I suppose, if true, it will prevent a lot
of Ukrainians from freezing to death this winter. But considering the benefits it will
provide to the Ukro-nazis who hate Russia, I have to wonder about the decision-making process
in Moscow.
Bellingcat's transparency model is similar to the Tor Project's. It lists a bunch of
innocuous, little-known non-profits and human rights-type organizations. To understand who
they and why they'd fund an outfit like Bellingcat takes a lot more digging.
started by an unemployed Englishman named Eliot Higgins
Good on him – being able to create a thing that rises to such prominence in such a
short space of time speaks volumes about this Higgins guy's entrepreneurial ability. And if
he wasn't mobbed-up to begin with, he sure as fuck is now – which is a double-
mitzvah (for him).
If he did so starting from being unemployed, then anybody who turned down a job
application from the guy must be kicking themselves. (' Unemployed ' is obviously used
pejoratively in the blockquote; 'Englishman' is purely-descriptive).
.
Also, the entire article accepts Bernays' conclusion, but disagrees as to which objectives
should be pursued.
Bernays' conclusions are hardly controversial: most people are gullible imbeciles .
It's not clear to me how much more empirical evidence we need before that becomes just a
thing that everyone with an IQ above 115 accepts.
So the question then becomes " OK, now what? ".
As usual, the right answer is " Depends " – and not just for those with
bladder control problems.
If you want to do things that are just , exploiting gullible imbeciles would appear
to violate the playing conditions. It would be hors jeu ; not done; just not
cricket .
As the Laconian famously said . " IF ."
For those for whom the 'if' condition returns 'false', it does very little to bleat about
how awful they are. You're not going to cause a little switch in their brain to flick on (or
off?), whereupon they realise the error of their ways and make a conscious decision to leave
the gullible imbeciles unexploited.
It's even unlikely to affect their victims (remember, they're imbeciles) – because
otherwise some infra-marginal imbeciles would have to process their way through quite a bit
of cognitive dissonance, and they're not wired for introspection (or processing).
So the sole real purpose (apart from κάθαρσις
catharsis ) is prophylaxis (προ +
φύλαξις – guarding ). Both good enough aims
obviously the writer is the one who gets the cathartic benefit, but who is going to be on
heightened alert as a result of this Cassandra -ish jeremiad -ing?
Non-imbeciles don't need it; imbeciles won't benefit.
Here's the thing: the gullible imbeciles are going to be exploited by
someone .
.
This is something that people of my persuasion struggle with. It boils down to the
following:
Let's assume that a reprehensible thing exists already, and is unlikely to be overthrown
by my opposition to it. Should I just participate and line my pockets?
The resources used are going to be used whether I participate or not, so it may as well
be me who gets them. After all, I will put them to moral uses – and while inside, I
can do things that are contrary to the interests of the reprehensible thing.
There is no satisfactory counter-argument to that line of reasoning, and yet I reject
it.
Then again: I was dropped on my head as an infant, so YMMV.
@Adrian About Chris Hedges' participation in presenting this award to Bellingcat "News from
Underground" came yesterday up with this:
a friend who knows the background of Chris Hedges' involvement writes that "he was duped
into presenting the Emmy to Bellingcat -- and, from what I hear, he believes it was done
intentionally to smear him."
As this friend is someone I (and many others) quite admire for his integrity and bravery,
and as it's wholly plausible that Hedges would have been set up, I am reserving judgementon
his action, and urge people on this list to do so, too.
@Adrian Hedges would have known who the nominees are just seeing Bellingcat in there and
knowing this is the Emmies well, it's hard to believe otherwise than Hedges is a clever fake as
I have long suspected
Let's recall that Hedges in his previous life was an NYT war correspondent who covered the
Bosnian conflict knowing Yugoslavia quite well from visits there in the 1980s his reports
demonizing Serbs stood out like a sore thumb
I quickly pegged him as a complete liar, like the rest of the MSM propagandists that were
repeating boilerplate canards meant to demonize the hugely successful nation of Yugoslavia
which of course they were trying to tear apart
For instance, 'the Serb-dominated Yugoslavia' was a standard sentence that appeared
literally in every single story repeated ad nauseum literallu dozens of times a day and clearly
meant to convince the reader that dismantling the progressive and ethnically harmonious nation
of Yugoslavia was somehow the right thing to do
But it was pure bullshit anyone who had ever been to Yugoslavia would instantly recognize
that as a 'WTF ?'
There is much much more in Hedges' closet
But then, miraculously, he had a 'Road to Damascus' moment a few years later [we are
supposed to believe] and somehow became a 'good guy'
Bullshit Mr. Curtin nails the sly method here exactly
[The] bread of truth is essential to conceal untruth.
An excellent article
PS Counterpunch is a complete bullshit rag that has been coopted completely Plutocrat Pierre
Omidyar and his little 'Intercept' outfit is similarly continuing in the footsteps of prior
plutocrat propagandists like the Ford foundation Rockefellers and others
The ultimate goal is controlling YOU they need you to be obedient and believing and not ask
any questions
@FB Haven't looked at Bellingcat (not exactly a sophisticated operation if you ever worked
in the ad business) since MH 17 and Putin's Syria pacification, but upon reading this article
it became clear that Hedges must be either an idiot or deeply embedded.
One doesn't exclude the other, of course. The uneducated public wouldn't need to catch up on
so much information, and still get a great head start if they ever found out wtf "cui bono"
even means – but that's not gonna happen.
It's just not how the human mind works.
The blogger Eliot Higgins made waves early in the decade by covering the war in Syria from a
laptop in his apartment in Leicester, England, while caring for his infant daughter. In 2014,
he founded Bellingcat, an open-source news outlet that has grown to include roughly a dozen
staff members, with an office in The Hague. Mr. Higgins attributed his skill not to any special
knowledge of international conflicts or digital data, but to the hours he had spent playing
video games , which, he said, gave him the idea that any mystery can be cracked.
...
Bellingcat journalists have spread the word about their techniques in seminars attended by
journalists and law-enforcement officials. Along with grants from groups like the Open Society
Foundations, founded by George Soros, the seminars are a significant source of revenue for
Bellingcat, a nonprofit organization.
Looks like Brown Noser Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcrap organisation may have finally met
their match in a real investigative journalist, Dilyana Gaytandzhieva, who (some of us may
recall) has done sterling work in tracing movements of weapons from the Balkan countries to
Turkey and Azerbaijan with their ultimate destination being Syria to be used by ISIS jihadis,
and for which she was sacked by her newspaper employer in Bulgaria.
Does anyone imagine that the Brown Noser will have the courage and fortitude to respond to
legal action brought against him and Bellingcrap? Will his Atlantic Council employers support
him or has he passed his use-by date and become a liability?
"... The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable... ..."
Curious to know how Kolomoisky is working "feverishly" to end the war in the Donbass region. Wonder if he is planning to come
clean on what he knows of the Malaysia Airlines MH17 shootdown and crash in an area not far from Slavyansk and near where his
Privat Group's subsidiary company Burisma Holdings holds a licence to drill for oil and natural gas. What does he know about Kiev
and Dnepropetrovsk air traffic control personnel's direction to MH17 to fly at 10,000 metres in the warzone and not an extra 1,000
metres above as the flight crew had requested? He had been governor of Dnepropetrovsk region at the time.
fb @ 25 said;"The Ukraine is actually a preview of what we can expect to see in our own future...as the unleashed oligarchy similarly
runs everything into the ground in order to extract maximal wealth for a parasite elite...already we are nothing but a Ponzi Scheme
on the verge of toppling..."
Yup, aided and abetted by our current regime, while pretending not to...
@23
"It's a tough balancing act, being a Ukrainian oligarch. For two decades they stole what they could from the Ukraine (and from
perverting the various sweetheart deals Russia was providing). Once the industry and energy money was stripped, and Russia started
closing the spigots, they managed to get the West to pump in ungodly amounts of cash so long as they would agree to talk mean
about Russia, and didn't mind the US machine taking its cut of the loot."
This is it in a nutshell. The Russians were fed up with Ukraine stealing gas. Hence, Nord Stream 2. That was always the plan.
Whether the Yanks truly grasped the rationale here ---Russia is cutting off gas to Ukraine, simple---has never been clear to me.
Although it is a fairly simple plot. The Russians had decades of shenanigans with the Ukes and said Basta. By not overreacting
to the Ukrainian-USA freakout and keeping their eyes on the prize (Nord Stream and disengaging, gas-wise, from Uk), they have
managed to reach their goal of getting Nord Stream 2 online.
Kolomoiski is the bankroller and commander of the Azov Battalion. Has close arrangements with other paramilitaries. And is the
current principal of Burisma. And is Privatbank, the only bank left in Ukraine. He gets a cut of all the action.
When Trump queries Zelensky, all that Zelensky is thinking is this guy does not know the score. This guy does not know who's
on first. He wants me to investigate the boss? Let him talk to the boss. And who does Z talk to in D.C.? Pointless getting into
detail with Trump.
Trump has no team. No one in D.C. is on his side. He's unable to finish anything.
1) Say the fantasy happens and the US/Russia become BFFs like US/UK...
- Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss?
- Tough to answer, many unknowns- Russia may act different once its on top, actors may derail schemes, Deep State temper tantrum,
etc...
In general, governments are the order-providing solution for chaos and problems that only first existed inside the minds of
those seeking power over others.
Kolomoiski is a U.S. asset. His interview with the NYTimes proves it.
His threats are meant to mobilize NATO and Russia haters in general; because Trump and most of his cadre care nothing for Ukraine.
Does anyone think Russia will give Kolomoiski 100 million dollars? Why was he given an opportunity to threaten the USA? For
no reason? Something else is afoot but Russia still won't take the bait because they are winning.
Russia is quite happy with the status quo. The war in Ukraine keeps the war against Russia on a level which is easy to manipulate
and therefore geostrategically beneficial. Kolomoiski will get nothing.
What does [Kolomoysky] know about Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk air traffic control personnel's direction to MH17 to fly at 10,000
metres in the warzone and not an extra 1,000 metres above as the flight crew had requested?
Okay..so an interesting can of worms here...
First is the fact that Kolomoysky was the governor of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast at the time...
Now as to the flight and Dnipro Radar [the regional air traffic control facility that controls a very big chunk of airspace
over eastern Ukraine]...
First the issue of the airplane cruising altitude...the crew had filed their flight plan to climb from flight level 330 [33,000
ft] to FL350 after passing a certain waypoint in eastern Ukraine...
Now the controllers did instruct the crew to go ahead and climb to their planned altitude, but the crew declined the
clearance and opted to stay at FL330...this was done very likely because the atmospheric conditions at that height were better
for fuel economy...
[To be even more specific...the Boeing manual gave an optimum flight altitude of 33,800 ft, but flying eastward you only have
odd numbered flight levels to choose from, so the crew figured they would be better off staying at 33 than climbing to 35...]
BUT...there are a couple of very curious things here...
First is the fact that Dnipro controllers deviated the airplane from its flight plan just before it went down...ostensibly
due to other traffic...
We can see this in the following map, which is what's called a high altitude en route chart, which is used by pilots to plan
and execute their flight...
You will note a couple of things here...the airplane is flying on the L980 airway [basically a highway in the sky] when it
is turned south by controllers to the RND waypoint, which is in Russian territory...
This is NOT the route filed by the crew...which can be seen
here...
They were supposed to continue flying on L980 right to the TAMAK waypoint, which is visible on the previous chart and is right
on the border with Russia...
They would have continued on the A87 airway to their next waypoint in Russia which is TIKNA...
Now here is the thing...right after they were turned south, they got shot down...
According to the radio transcripts, the crew acknowledged the course change, but did not object...however, usually these kinds
of course changes aren't appreciated on the flight deck because the crew is trying to minimize wasted time and wasted fuel on
course deviations...
Most times you will just not bother to complain to controllers...but for sure there will always be chatter between the captain
and copilot about being yanked around like that...
No mention is made in the Dutch Safety Board report about such chatter from the cockpit voice recorder, which I find very
odd...
Also odd is the fact that Dnipro ATC primary radar was down, and only the so-called 'secondary' was working which uses the
transponder signals from the airplane...
This is very busy airspace because a lot of flights from western Europe to South Asia traverse this territory...the plan is
always to fly what's called a 'great circle route' which is basically a straight line, if you flattened out the globe...
Plus considering that you have a war going on underneath...it's very unusual to have your PRIMARY radar inoperable...
This is significant also because military aircraft will not be using transponders and so will not be visible to the secondary
surveillance...
The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about
that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable...
So we see some very suspicious anomalies here...
The Ukrainian authorities did have a NOTAM [notice to airmen] in effect up to FL320 [32,000 ft] so commercial traffic could
not fly under that height...but clearly they should have closed the airspace over the hot conflict area...
They didn't do that...and Kolomoysky was in charge...
The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about
that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable...
One of these aircraft was possibly an Air India flight travelling from Delhi to Birmingham. The flight crew was asked by Dnipro
ATC to make radio contact with MH17 after the latter plane could not be located by Dnipro ATC personnel. The Air India pilots
did try but did not get an answer.
The other craft could have been a Singapore Airlines flight from Denmark to Singapore. Singapore Airlines ran two flights on
17 July 2014 that went within half an hour of MH17 over much the same area travelling from Europe to Singapore.
This is the full video of the July 21 Russian military presentation. It also shows positions of Ukrainian BUK system radar
coverage that operating at the time of the shootdown and also sat photos of Ukraine BUK launcher positions in the hours before
the shootdown.
I will add here also [since we are on the MH17 issue] that the Russians produced a
verified paper trail of that BUK missile serial number that the Dutch came up with...
showing that it was DELIVERED TO THE UKRANIANS back in the 1980s...
Also that the Russians haven't even used that model of missile for more than 20 years,
having replaced them with substantially different, modernized versions...
Also, the Russians performed an extremely rigorous test of a BUK explosion, using a mocked
up airplane fuselage... and found results completely inconsistent with what the Dutch have
presented...
The whole thing is a disaster for the Nato deep state...nobody is fooled by their bullshit
on MH17...
I don't have links right now to those items mentioned above, but it should not be too
difficult to find...
I did find the exact location of the launchers on google maps some time ago but would take
a few hours research to locate it again. The positions of those launchers as in the Russian
military presentation also corresponds with the general area Almaz Antey believes a buk
missile would have to be launched from to create the damage pattern.
Peter, I agree about diverting the plane to get it into range of the Ukrainian BUK...there
certainly was no possible reason because of nonexistent 'traffic'...which is the official
Dutch story here...
Thanks again for the map info...very interesting to say the least...
I have been simply here raising very obvious questions about the known facts of that
flight, as presented by the completely incompetent Dutch...I will leave it to others to
connect the dots...[as you are doing].
I also do vaguely recall something about one of the Ukranian controllers coming forward
with some info that contradicts the official story...but I could be wrong and don't have any
links or anything like that...
Re the flight controller. There appears to have been something happen there but nothing
solid on the various flight controller rumors. Ukraine security did, I think, take all
records in the hours after the shootdown.
Well, I noticed the point you raised. I was a software engineer, not a real engineer, so I
have steadfastly stayed out of arguments about 9/11 and what really happened.
I have always found the whole 9/11 thing implausible, and still do, but I've been used to
that sort of thing since the 60s. Three new impossible things every day. I considered the
uses of passenger jets as weapons on more than one occasion while riding around in one,
seeing the buildings go by as you glide to the runway, so I wasn't surprised.
And then I realized, like the next day, that our leaders, whomever they might be, intended
to make it a military affair, and since then I've been waiting for our collapse.
I don't believe I've seen any attempts to emulate 9/11 though. Certainly some other
aircraft terrorism, like in Ukraine.
It was kind of obvious that the Bushites were all ready at the gate when 9/11 happened,
Patriot Act Mighty Wurlitzer and all, so I don't doubt their complicity, but other than that
I don't want to fight.
Good point about the underestimated Ukrainian death toll in the war against the DPR and
LPR. The number of photos showing Ukrainian destroyed armor suggests larger losses
Add to this was the 7k Ukr troops were surrounded and nearly wiped out near Debaltsevo
following the Illovaisk defeat and the several brigades being trapped and mostly destroyed in
the SE of the DPR and LPR along the Russian border. The MH17 shoot-down seemed timed to
allowed many of these most experienced troops to escape the cauldron.
Meanwhile, damage from Ukrainian shelling and bombing infrastructure of south-eastern
Ukrainian breakaway cities of Donetsk and Luhansk is estimated at $440 million.
Blok says the Ukrainian side offered to "postpone" the exchange to give Dutch
prosecutors the opportunity to interview Tsemach again, and adds that this questioning
subsequently took place
Investigators directing the criminal probe into MH17's loss have previously identified
four individuals – three Russians and a Ukrainian, none of which is Tsemach – who
they are seeking to prosecute over the attack.
####
'interview again '. To repeat the f/king obvious, surely if there was sufficient
intelligence/evidence/coffee grounds/magda the gypsy/whatever, then Tsemach would have been
handed over. Did they honestly thing that having another crack at him would have
provided something? Weak as piss.
Of course the Pork Pie New Networks despite being rather more careful than usual in their
reporting of this are having their cake and eating it, i.e. not using phraes like '
smoking gun ' but happy with 'key witness' with no qualifier or anything to
back this up. The insinuation is there, but not the actual words. Spineless mofos.
They're just having so much fun with the ridiculous narrative that Russia moved behind the
scenes to ensure he was included in the prisoner swap – before you know it, the entire
exchange will have been engineered to get Tsemakh out of Ukrainian hands. Why? Well, you know
– where there's smoke, there's a crashed airliner, wink, wink.
Moscow never mentioned Tsemakh; if they sent Ukraine a list of prisoners recommended for
exchange, he was not on it. But the western media planted the seed that his inclusion in the
slate of transferred prisoners was owed to Russian pressure, and it just gets wilder as it
goes along.
I'd have thought that the Dutch investigators would try to persuade the Banderites to keep
Tsemakh in custody on the pretence that his life would be in danger if he were to be returned
to Russia, because Lord Vlademort would be displeased that Tsemakh might have let something
valuable slip from his lips, let alone be inconsiderate enough as to be arrested in the first
place.
Later on in the distant future, after Tsemakh has been transported to The Hague or Rome,
as the court case date draws near, or when Tsemakh is supposed to appear as a "witness" in
court, he can always suddenly and unexpectedly expire in prison from some hitherto
undiagnosed heart condition.
Ukraine released him on bail before the prisoner swap. Obviously they either considered him
an insignificant flight risk – given how difficult it must be to collect a bail bond in
Ukraine – or knew that he had no information which would be useful to anyone. They
might even be using him to spread disinformation in Russia, and all the teeth-grinding from
the west all for show, to make the bait sweeter. You never know. But under normal
circumstances, when a European country said "Jump", Ukraine's response would be "How high"?
If you read the accident investigation report, on page 239 it clearly states that the
Ukrainian army was active with heavy anti-aircraft installations in the eastern part of the
Ukraine. The Ukrainian army has BUK rockets of the type that downed MH17.
The Ukraine had the means and a motive, they should have been treated as a criminal
suspect, yet without further investigation they were promoted to member of the JIT that does
the criminal investigation
This background text was prepared in the context of the Kuala Lumpur MH17 Conference
entitled MH17: The Quest for Justice, organized by JUST, the PGPF and the CRG.
The underlying objective is to examine the evidence, reveal the truth and uphold the rule
of law.
Today, August 17th 2019, our thoughts are with the families of the victims of the
Malaysian Airlines MH17 tragedy. The Conference is dedicated to the memory of the
victims.
It is also a national tragedy for the people of Malaysia. The downing of MH17 with 283
passengers and 15 crew on board, took place barely a few months following the mysterious
disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 after departing on March 8, 2014 from Kuala
Lumpur for Beijing, with 227 passengers and 12 crew members on board.
It is worth recalling that immediately after the MH17 plane crash on July 17 2014, prior
to the conduct of a preliminary investigation, Secretary of State John Kerry and US Ambassador
to the UN Samantha Power pointed their finger at Moscow without a shred of evidence. In turn,
the allegations directed against Russia were used to justify the imposition of sweeping
economic sanctions against the Russian Federation.
"... The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day. ..."
"... " MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident. ..."
"... The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so. ..."
The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent
Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western
partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a
decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official"
narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day.
***
The entire world is already aware of the two competing theories about MH17's downing half a
decade ago, with the West insisting that a supposedly Russian-supplied BUK surface-to-air
missile accidentally destroyed the passenger aircraft while Moscow has always maintained its
innocence and claimed that it's being framed as part of a politically motivated cover-up. Most
people have already made up their minds about what they think really happened on that dreadful
day, but those who doubt that an actual conspiracy took place might finally reconsider their
views after the newly released documentary by Yana Yerlashova together with Dutch investigator
Max van der Werff.
The "official" narrative blames Russia for this tragedy, but it's since been revealed
through the new evidence and testimonies that active efforts involving a broad array of
countries were undertaken from the get-go to paint Moscow as the culprit despite there being no
facts whatsoever to back up that provocative claim.
" MH17 – Call
For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's
downing, with
journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key
takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes
a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier
spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even
before any information was conclusively known about the incident.
The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to
prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely
scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for
justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head
of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather
evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so.
Malaysia's possession of the black boxes ensured that the country would know the truth about
what really occurred, which explains why Colonel Sakri also said that both the FBI and the
Ukrainian government desperately tried to convince him to hand this evidence over to them
immediately afterwards. He rightly refused, and that's why his government never jumped on the
bandwagon of blaming Russia since they were aware that there's no conclusive evidence proving
its complicity in this affair. This carries immense normative weight that has unfairly been
ignored by the Mainstream Media when discussing this case, though it's understandable why they
wouldn't want to draw attention to it since that "inconvenient fact" dismantles their
anti-Russian infowar. It also would make more people across the world question why they weren't
made aware of any of this in the first place, which in today's populist-driven environment
could produce more anti-elite outrage than ever before.
Few independent investigators have done as much to reveal the truth about MH17 as Yana
Yerlashova and Max Van den Werff, who have done the entire world an enormous service
with their latest documentary which has proven once that the Mainstream Media narrative was
nothing but a politically motivated lie to blame Moscow while deflecting attention from Kiev
and its probable
culpability in causing this tragedy.
Those who already knew this won't be surprised, but there are nevertheless many more who had
no idea about this side of the story, which is why this documentary is a much-watch and should
be shared with as many people as possible, especially on social media so that others can become
aware of the evidence and testimonies that his work includes in order to finally make up their
minds about what really happened.
*
Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your
email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.
Andrew Korybko is an American Moscow-based political analyst specializing in the
relationship between the US strategy in Afro-Eurasia, China's One Belt One Road global vision
of New Silk Road connectivity, and Hybrid Warfare. He is a frequent contributor to Global
Research.
Bonanza media investigative team of independent journalists conduct exclusive interviews
with one of the suspects in the downing the MH17, the Malaysian prime minister, the colonel
that collected the black boxes and much more.
Eye-opening testimonies from witnesses and irrefutable evidence from experts. Exclusive
footage shot in Malaysia, the Netherlands and at the crash area in Ukraine.
"... including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix ..."
"... I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary . ..."
MH17. I have always thought the JIT "investigation" was rotten – see
this (port engine intake – BIG clue as to direction of missile). We now have a
documentary that reiterates Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first,
the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down
for repair.
But including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding
Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix . I'm sceptical that
it was a BUK (too few fragments); I think the fighter plane sighting reports should be looked
at. I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident (
wouldn't
be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up
intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?)
Helmer discusses ; the documentary .
MH17. Thanks for that link to the documentary. It laid out a clear case that the JIT
investigation stinks to high heaven. I think you may have participated in some of our
discussions on this years ago.
Judging by some of the eyewitness accounts in the documentary, I'm leaning more to a shoot
down by a Ukrainian SU-25. I was always puzzled by the change of direction of the airliner's
flight path before it broke up. A chase/strafing run and AA missile strike seems a more
likely explanation for that direction change that a sudden Buk strike.
I believe the Ukies had versions of the SU-25 with pressurized cockpits and refurbished to
handle the R-60, R-73 and Israeli Python missiles.
Do you know if anyone is still researching this scenario?
What about the MH-17 "conspiracy theories"? A recent video " MH17:
Call for Justice' (2019) " produced by Max van der Werff blows the lid off (just the tip
of the iceberg) of the propaganda put worth by the West.
A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and
forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying
by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US, and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed
aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first
time.
The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian – Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad
Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the
Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash on
July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian
Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.
...
The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness
testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the
Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a
Malaysian or other national or international court.
For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of
attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO
military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane,
passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was
aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against
Russian-held Crimea.
The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the
MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them
A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and
forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by
the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal
Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is
also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.
"... For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable. ..."
"... A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time. ..."
"... Malaysia's exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained. ..."
"... The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court. ..."
"... The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27. ..."
"... Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29. ..."
"... In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source: https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian control. ..."
"... Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians; for details, read this . ..."
"... Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the June 19, 2019 , press conference of JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU. ..."
"... Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. ..."
"... She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony." ..."
"... According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the Ukrainian Army were there." ..."
"... Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it." ..."
"... Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice for the victims," Zakaria said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?] "Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions." ..."
"... Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g. here for others)? ..."
"... Why is no journalist raising these questions? ..."
"... Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh? ..."
"... That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. ..."
"... Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.) ..."
"... Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists? ..."
"... And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right after the shooting of the plane. ..."
"... "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103 site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight. ..."
"... I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link. Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down in high summer. And so it went on. ..."
"... Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were seriously not barking. ..."
"... That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. ..."
"... Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia". ..."
"... If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians. ..."
"... The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will begin to find peace. ..."
Yves here. Hoo boy. The idea that eastern Ukrainian insurgents or Russia would target a passenger plane never made any sense (unless
the plane had high-priority targets or cargo), although it's always been possible that the downing of MH17 was an accident, and some
efforts to explain what happened are based on that idea. For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and
say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable.
A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster,
has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes;
and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation
(FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official
for the first time.
The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian -- Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer
in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash
on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes
which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.
The 298 casualties of MH17 included 192 Dutch; 44 Malaysians; 27 Australians; 15 Indonesians. The nationality counts vary because
the airline manifest does
not identify dual nationals of Australia, the UK, and the US.
The new film throws the full weight of the Malaysian Government, one of the five members of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT),
against the published findings and the recent indictment of Russian suspects reported by the Dutch officials in charge of the JIT;
in addition to Malaysia and The Netherlands, the members of the JIT are Australia, Ukraine and Belgium. Malaysia's exclusion
from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never
been explained.
The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and
telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution
in a Malaysian or other national or international court.
For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first
week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger
bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the
Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.
The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing
the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated
the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch
to call off the invasion on July 27.
The 28-minute documentary by Max van der Werff and Yana Yerlashova has just been released. Yerlashova was the film director and
co-producer with van der Werff and Ahmed Rifazal. Vitaly Biryaukov directed the photography. Watch it in full
here .
The full interview with Prime Minister Mahathir was released in advance; it can be viewed and read
here .
Mahathir reveals why the US, Dutch and Australian governments attempted to exclude Malaysia from membership of the JIT in the
first months of the investigation. During that period, US, Dutch, Australian and NATO officials initiated a plan for 9,000 troops
to enter eastern Ukraine, ostensibly to secure the crash scene, the aircraft and passenger remains, and in response to the alleged
Russian role in the destruction of MH17 on July 17; for details of that scheme, read
this .
Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces
unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29.
Malaysian resistance to the US attempts to blame Moscow for the aircraft shoot-down was made clear in the first hours after
the incident to then-President Barack Obama by Malaysia's Prime Minister at the time, Najib Razak. That story can be followed
here and
here .
In an unusual decision to speak in the new documentary, Najib's successor Prime Minister Mahathir announced: "They never allowed
us to be involved from the very beginning. This is unfair and unusual. So we can see they are not really looking at the causes of
the crash and who was responsible. But already they have decided it must be Russia. So we cannot accept that kind of attitude. We
are interested in the rule of law, in justice for everyone irrespective of who is involved. We have to know who actually fired the
missile, and only then can we accept the report as the complete truth."
On July 18, in the first Malaysian Government press conference after the shoot-down, Najib (right)
announced agreements he had already
reached by telephone with Obama and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President. " 'Obama and I agreed that the investigation will
not be hidden and the international teams have to be given access to the crash scene.' [Najib] said the Ukrainian president has
pledged that there would be a full, thorough and independent investigation and Malaysian officials would be invited to take part.
'He also confirmed that his government will negotiate with rebels in the east of the country in order to establish a humanitarian
corridor to the crash site,' said Najib. He also said that no one should remove any debris or the black box from the scene. The Government
of Malaysia is dispatching a special flight to Kiev, carrying a Special Malaysia Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team, as well as
a medical team. But we must – and we will – find out precisely what happened to this flight. No stone can be left unturned."
The new film reveals in an interview with Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the head of the Malaysian team, what happened next. Sakri's evidence,
filmed in his office at Putrajaya, is the first to be reported by the press outside Malaysia in five years. A year ago, Sakri gave
a partial account of his mission to a Malaysian
newspaper .
"I talked to my prime minister [Najib]," Colonel Sakri says. "He directed me to go to the crash site immediately." At the time
Sakri was a senior security official at the Disaster Management Division of the Prime Minister's Department. Sakri says that after
arriving in Kiev, Poroshenko's officials blocked the Malaysians. "We were not allowed to go there so I took a small team to leave
Kiev going to Donetsk secretly." There Sakri toured the crash site, and met with officials of the Donetsk separatist administration
headed by Alexander Borodai .
With eleven men, including two medical specialists, a signalman, and Malaysian Army commandos, Sakri had raced to the site ahead
of an armed convoy of Australian, Dutch and Ukrainian government men. The latter were blocked by Donetsk separatist units. The Australian
state press agency ABC
reported their
military convoy, prodded from Kiev by the appearance of Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans,
had been forced to abandon their mission. That was after Colonel Sakri had taken custody of the MH17 black boxes in a handover ceremony
filmed at Borodai's office in Donetsk on July 22.
US sources told the
Wall Street
Journal at the time "the [Sakri] mission's success delivered a political victory for Mr. Najib's government it also handed
a gift to the rebels in the form of an accord, signed by the top Malaysian official present in Donetsk, calling the crash site 'the
territory of the Donetsk People's Republic.' That recognition could antagonize Kiev and Washington, which have striven not to give
any credibility to the rebels, whose main leaders are Russian citizens with few ties to the area. State Department deputy spokeswoman
Marie Harf said in a briefing Monday that the negotiation 'in no way legitimizes' separatists."
The Australian state radio then reported the Ukrainian government as claiming the black box evidence showed "the reason for the
destruction and crash of the plane was massive explosive decompression arising from multiple shrapnel perforations from a rocket
explosion." This was a fabrication – the evidence of the black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, first
reported six weeks later in September by the Dutch Safety Board, showed nothing of the kind; read what their evidence
revealed .
Foreign Minister Bishop, in Kiev on July 24, claimed she was negotiating with the Ukrainians for the Australian team in the country
to carry arms. "I don't envisage that we will ever resort to [arms]," she told her state news agency, "but it is a contingency planning,
and you would be reckless not to include it in this kind of agreement. But I stress our mission is unarmed because it is [a] humanitarian
mission."
In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans,
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source:
https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian
control.
By the time she spoke to her state radio, Bishop was concealing that the plan for armed intervention, including 3,000 Australian
troops, had been called off. She was also concealing that the black boxes were already in Colonel Sakri's possession.
The document signed by Sakri for the handover of the black boxes is visible in the new documentary. Sakri signed himself and added
the stamp of the National Security Council of Malaysia.
Col. Sakri says on film the Donetsk leaders expressed surprise at the delay of the Malaysians in arriving at the crash site
to recover the black boxes. "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." Source:
https://www.youtube.com/ Min. 05:47.
Sakri goes on to say he was asked by the OSCE's special
monitoring mission for Ukraine to hand over
the black boxes; he refused. He was then met by agents of the FBI (Min 6:56). "They approached me to show them the black box. I said
no." He also reports that in Kiev the Ukrainian Government tried "forcing me to leave the black boxes with them. We said no. We cannot.
We cannot allow."
The handover ceremony in Donetsk, July 22, 2014: on far left, the two black boxes from MH17; in the centre, shaking hands,
Alexander Borodai and Mohamad Sakri.
Permission for Colonel Sakri to speak to the press has been authorized by his superiors at the prime ministry in Putrajaya, and
his disclosures agreed with them in advance.
Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have
included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians;
for details, read
this .
Van der Werff and Yerlashova contracted with OG IT Forensic Services
, a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, to examine
the telephone tapes. The Kuala Lumpur firm has been endorsed by the
Malaysian Bar . The full 143-page technical report can be read
here .
The findings reported by Akash Rosen and illustrated on camera are that the telephone recordings have been cut, edited and fabricated.
The source of the tapes, according to the
JIT press conference on June 19 by Dutch police officer Paulissen, head of the National Criminal Investigation Service of The
Netherlands, was the Ukrainian SBU. Similar findings of tape fabrication and evidence tampering are reported on camera in the van
der Werff film by a German analyst, Norman Ritter.
Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the
June 19, 2019 , press conference of
JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU.
Minute 16:02 Right: Norman Ritter presented his analysis to interviewer Billy Sixt to show the telephone tape evidence has
been forged in nine separate "manipulations". One of the four accused by the JIT last month, Sergei Dubinsky, testifies from Min.
17 of the documentary. He says his men recovered the black boxes from the crash site and delivered them to Borodai at 23:00 hours
on July 17; the destruction of the aircraft occurred at 1320.
Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence
against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. "I dare them to publish the uncut
conversations, and then you will get a real picture of what was discussed." (Min. 17:59).
Van der Werff and Yerlashova filmed at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. Several local witnesses were interviewed, including
a man named Alexander from Torez town, and Valentina Kovalenko, a woman from the farming village of Red October. The man said the
missile equipment alleged by the JIT to have been transported from across the Russian border on July 17 was in Torez at least one,
possibly two days before the shoot-down on July 17; he did not confirm details the JIT has identified as a Buk system.
Kovalenko, first portrayed in a BBC documentary three
years ago (starting at Min.26:50) as a "unique" eye-witness to the missile launch, clarifies more precisely than the BBC reported
where the missile she saw had been fired from.
This was not the location identified in press statements by JIT. Van der Werff explains: "we specifically asked [Kovalenko] to
point exactly in the direction the missile came from. I then asked twice if maybe it was from the direction of the JIT launch site.
She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and
garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony."
According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the
Ukrainian Army were there."
Kovalenko also remembers that on the days preceding the July 17 missile firing she witnessed, there had been Ukrainian military
aircraft operating in the sky above her village. She says they used evasion techniques including flying in the shadow of civilian
aircraft she also saw at the same time.
On July 17, three other villagers told van der Werff they had seen a Ukrainian military jet in the vicinity and at the time of
the MH17 crash.
Concluding the documentary, van der Werff and Yerlashova present an earlier interview filmed in Donetsk by independent Dutch journalist
Stefan Beck, whom JIT officials had tried to warn off visiting the area. Beck interviewed Yevgeny Volkov, who was an air controller
for the Ukrainian Air Force in July 2014. Volkov was asked to comment on Ukrainian Government statements, endorsed by the Dutch Safety
Board report into the crash and in subsequent reports by the JIT, that there were no radar records of the airspace at the time of
the shoot-down because Ukrainian military radars were not operational.
Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking
off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the
three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There
[they] have it. In Ukraine they have it."
Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah
Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian
Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice
for the victims," Zakaria
said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose
of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?]
"Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions."
By John Helmer , the longest continuously serving foreign
correspondent in Russia, and the only western journalist to direct his own bureau independent of single national or commercial ties.
Helmer has also been a professor of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia.
He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia. Originally published
at
Dances with Bears
I always come back to the same three questions:
1. If all civilian and military radars were out of order, why was the flight not redirected out of the Ukrainian airspace and
into some territory with radar?
2. Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g.
here for others)?
3. Why is no journalist raising these questions?
(I got a partial answer to 3. "because only Kremlin trolls and conspiracy specialists doubt the official/Bellingcat version")
Re 1) active radar is not used that much in civilian flight control anymore, it's basically a back-up for passive transponder
pick up. Dnipro Control was monitoring the flight using passive (that's for example how they knew they were off their approved
airway L980 and asked them to get back, which, if there was no radar, they could not do). Passive (civilian) radar is no use in
tracking missiles or military planes with no transporder on.
Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist
masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad
before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh?
Having grown up in a military family and knowing what precautions are taken, I am staggered at how Bell End Cat can track down
Russian secret servicemen with such ease and in their homeland.
If you watch the film, you'd learn that there were back-ups so not all were out of order. And if we knew the answer to your
questions, we'd likely know 'who done it.'
Undoubtedly there's something quite rotten afoot here, and I'll be sure to give this film a watch, but honestly the Malaysians
have zero credibility when it comes to airplane crashes involving their national airline, especially after they deliberately fed
false information to rescue and recovery teams concerning MH 370's flight path. Whatever they knew or didn't know they had no
interest in helping anyone find that airplane or discover what took place onboard before it vanished. They should spare us all
any sanctimony about 'justice for victims, truth, rule of law, etc.'
It seems the world has a real credibility crisis today, not many state actors I trust to tell the truth or not politicize tragedy.
These revelations certainly make it seem more likely Ukrainian forces were to blame for downing MH17, but at this point the mystery
will never be conclusively solved. Two warring factions with the exact same equipment/weaponry in close proximity, compromised
crash sites, tons of propaganda, lots of interested parties seeking to maximize the tragedy for political gain, corrupt authorities
all around.
Not an ideal situation for objective fact finding to say the least. With the 1MBD scandal and investigation still ongoing I
have no doubts the Malaysians are probably looking for leverage and bargaining chips where ever they can find them, further eroding
their objectivity and authority in my opinion. Getting to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination will be easier than MH17, but
if the truth does come out it will not be owed to the virtues of the Malaysian government. They've already shown the world how
much they care about airplane crash investigations.
I have to tell you, this is an ad hominem argument, which is a violation of our site Policies. You need to deal with the evidence
and not attack the source. With MH370, you had a crash of a plane under the control of the carrier, not as a result of an air
strike.
Quite apart from the ad hominem nature of JerryDenim's comment (and I disagree with Yves Smith; I think the credibility of
sources is relevant), what motive would Malaysia have for siding with Russia/east Ukraine against the west/west Ukraine? Does
JerryDenim know of one, or have any suggestions?
TBH, I have dire doubts on anything Malaysian government says, due to their handling of MH370 where they continue lying in
face of hard facts (that doesn't mean I believe any governments on this).
I believe that the most likely cause is an accidental shooting down, where an inexperienced and untrained separatist crew messed
up (this is what you get when even a semi-sophisticated equipment gets to untrained people who are keen to use it).
For me it fits Occam's razor the most, and is the only theory which explains the (documented) boasting of the separatists of
a large military plane being shot down immediately after the catastrophe.
How is "Russia did it" logical? That part of Ukraine was in the hands of separatists, not "Russia". "Russia" was not directing
their activities. Russia does not want to control the eastern part of Ukraine, which is an economic basket case. But it doesn't
want hostile forces parked on its border.
Sorry, that's irrelevant even if true. Even if "Russia" was formally providing troops, as opposed to engaged in a massive wink
and nod (a LOT of Russians had relatives in eastern Ukraine, a point you forget re motives and numbers), that's way way way short
of any evidence they were in charge.
Plus I was wrong on the key point, and it renders your argument moot. From Rev Kev below:
That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were
seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down.
This response is non-sensical. Have you been to the cemeteries you mention? Any picture can be posted and a caption written
– that is no proof of anything. Besides the point being irrelevant to the question of who shot down the plane.
Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag
operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on
board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.)
Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning
of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists?
I suppose if one believes the West's preferred version of Putin as some Bond type villain who takes great delight in shooting
down planes full of civilians, presumably while stroking a large white cat then I suppose the he dunnit version is the one for
you.
Personally I believe that Putin is not an idiot & would likely have been more interested in putting out that fire than throwing
more fuel onto it. As for who has any credibility – the Ukrainians under Porkyschenko with their Neo-Nazi element, would I think
be at the bottom of my list & that is without mentioning Neo-Cons with their Noble Lie BS.
And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right
after the shooting of the plane.
"Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103
site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based
at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight.
The US team took charge even though they were on foreign soil.
That was a pretty gutsy move on the Malaysians to send in their own retrieval team for those recorders. I bet that those Malaysian
commandos would have a story to tell or two. The danger wasn't from the rebels however but from the west and their allied Ukrainians.
The rebels were more than glad to hand over the records that they found at first opportunity but the information, once in the
hands of the west, has been seeping out with all the speed of the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians
came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link.
Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did
it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down
in high summer. And so it went on.
There was a very slow walk to stop people going to the crash site. One Australian couple who lost someone went there in spite
of the efforts of our government to stop them.Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was
being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were
seriously not barking. A link from this page talks about how there is a silence when MH17 got hit. I have heard recordings
of aircraft that went down and there is usually something – a bang, crumpling, warning calls, shouts – but here there was nothing.
That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would
have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking
about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. Having said that, Tony Abbott was Prime Minister
of the time and Julie Bishop was his Foreign minister and they are both hard right politicians (now both thankfully gone) and
may have been entertaining such thoughts.
My belief is that this was an operation to try and retrieve the situation in the Ukraine for the west. The US alone spent over
$5 billion on this coup but Russia grabbed the crown jewels of Crimea (with its naval bases & off-shore gas fields) and eastern
Ukraine which has a border with Russia. That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not
rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. Ask yourself – who benefited from this tragedy
and that will tell you where to go looking for answers. Maybe, like happened with the Meuller investigation, Russian legal representations
should show up in a court of law and start demanding the discovery process of all the evidence. Now that could get interesting.
Rebels were the first to respond to the crash scene, recording themselves with a camcorder. The rebels were convinced they
had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet and were searching for a pilot that would have ejected. The rebels then thought a
fighter downed the airliner and they downed the fighter. Their commander speaking in both Russian and Ukrainian tells the
rebels to stop filming and clear the area of civilians. The footage was aired by News Corp Australia.
Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as
in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the
western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting
of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News
before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia".
If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired
by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's
evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians.
Of course Western sources will say the Russians have no credibility but then they don't either–the fog of propaganda war.
The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according
to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will
begin to find peace.
"... If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first, and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site, thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion. ..."
"... If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've been covering up their own tracks. ..."
If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a
NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the
launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This
operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first,
and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site,
thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and
because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion.
If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the
investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've
been covering up their own tracks.
"... Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft "indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986." ..."
"... By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or scrapped," adding: ..."
"... "The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed forces." ..."
"... A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten. ..."
"... Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings. ..."
Not a shred of credible evidence suggests Russia or its nationals had anything to do with
downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine airspace, all
passengers and crew members perishing at the time.
So-called Joint Investigation Team (JIT) member countries Australia, Belgium, the
Netherlands, and Ukraine (US sponsored Kiev regime) in cahoots with the US and NATO falsely
claimed otherwise. Russia and Malaysia were excluded from the probe.
Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial
number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft
"indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986."
By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or
scrapped," adding:
"The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine
manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed
forces."
Clearly Russia had nothing to do with downing MH17, nor did Donbass freedom fighters. The
incident had US and Kiev fingerprints all over it.
A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian
airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten.
Five years later, the Big Lie about what happened persists, ignoring what's obvious. What
possible reason would Russia have to down a commercial aircraft anywhere?
The Obama regime and Kiev putchists it installed clearly benefit from blaming Russia for
what no credible evidence suggests it had anything to do with.
Yet on Wednesday, the JIT falsely blamed three Russian nationals -- Igor Girkin (connected
to its Federal Security Service), military intelligence officials Sergei Dubinsky and Oleg
Pulatov , along with pro-Moscow Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko for downing MH17.
Placed on an international want list, a show trial with them in absentia is scheduled for
March 9, 2020, the above individuals falsely charged with murder.
"(w)e are still gathering new data for investigation, because we will start prosecuting
now, but the investigation will continue."
Dutch chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the following:
"Today, we will send out international arrest warrants for the four suspects that we will
prosecute," adding:
"They will also be placed on national and international wanted lists. Because of that, we
(are) reveal(ing) their full names show(ing) you their pictures" -- despite no credible
evidence of their involvement in what happened.
Russia categorically rejects the fabricated JIT accusations, calling them "absolutely
baseless." No credible evidence supports them.
Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible
information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings.
No Russian missile crossed the Ukrainian border, its Defense Ministry stressed, the missile
used given to Ukraine in 1986, identified by its serial number, as explained above.
The above-named JIT suspects are convenient patsies, wanting them and Russia blamed for what
the US and Kiev were responsible for.
... ... ...
Source: NYT
Russophobic NYT editors
jumped on the falsified JIT accusations. Turning truth on its head, they said the
following:
"In Vladimir Putin's Kremlin, lying -- willfully, methodically, shamelessly -- is the
default response to any accusations of wrongdoing" -- a longstanding US, NATO, Israeli
specialty, not how Putin's Russia operates.
It's also standard procedure for the Times and other establishment media, featuring managed
news misinformation and disinformation, suppressing hard truths on major issues, especially
geopolitical ones.
The Times: "Russia's involvement (in downing MH17) has long been clear" -- a bald-faced Big
Lie.
The Times: "(A) Russian missile launcher belonging to an active Russian military unit was
driven into eastern Ukraine and used to fire a Buk missile at the Malaysian jumbo jet" --
another bald-faced Big Lie.
Because of its global reach, the Times is the closest thing to an official US ministry of
propaganda, carpet-bombing its readers with falsified official narrative rubbish in lieu of
high journalistic standards the way they're supposed to be.
The Times and other establishment media abandoned them long ago, giving yellow journalism
they feature a bad name.
*
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Award-winning author Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago. He can be reached at [email protected] . He is a Research
Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). His new book as editor and contributor is titled "Flashpoint in Ukraine: US Drive for
Hegemony Risks WW III." http://www.claritypress.com/LendmanIII.html Visit his blog site at sjlendman.blogspot.com .
"... I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files ..."
"... They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev. ..."
"... I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident. ..."
"... if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to bamboozle the world with a doctored tape? ..."
"... The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that "this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack. ..."
"... An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?), lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17. ..."
"... We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot down on the rebels? ..."
"... The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility. ..."
"... The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day ..."
"... The JIT readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane, as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.) ..."
"... The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants. ..."
"... The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing, it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration. ..."
Note this comment by "Valerie1" below - the kill shot:
I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and
the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files.
Real conversations do not have overlapping samples/soundbytes and splices people. This video proves it hands down. Kiev
faked the files.
They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it
was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev.
I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the
doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident.
In any case, if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to
bamboozle the world with a doctored tape?
Here's an excerpt from an unpublished essay I wrote about 4 years ago (unpublished because I presumed it would be met with
mockery or indifference at DKos) that is pertinent:
Also curious is the fact that Ukrainian air traffic control directed MH-17 out of its usual path, so that it passed over
rebel-controlled area near Donetz. This is not known to have happened before. Immediately after the shoot-down, the Ukrainian
secret police (SBU) seized the air traffic control records for the flight, and have never released them. The new flight path
took the plane directly over the base of noted rebel commander Igor Bezler ("Bes"). Within five hours after the crash, SBU
released a video tape in which Bes appeared to be confirming that his forces had just shot down a plane; comments by other
rebels on the tape seem to imply that this plane was MH-17. Subsequent analysis indicated that Bes' comments had been taped
the day previous to the crash, and that he was referring to shoot down of a Ukrainian military plane; this was then spliced
to tape taken after the shoot down of MH-17, in which rebels referred to the crash site.
The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after
SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU
tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that
"this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack.
With respect to deception by the Ukrainian government, the investigation by BND [German intelligence] indicated that photos
supplied by Kiev "have been manipulated"; however, they did not indicate what photos they were referring to. In any case, if
Ukraine was blameless in this affair, why wouldn't scrupulous honesty be their best policy? At this point, the balance of evidence
seems to point to the Ukrainian military – likely a rogue element controlled by neo-Nazis or an oligarch such as Kolomoisky
(who when interviewed referred to the MH-17 shoot down as "a trifle") -- acting without knowledge of the central government,
as the culprit. Parry cites several speculations regarding the motives of those involved. One theory is that the perpetrators
thought that they were shooting at Putin's plane returning from a recent trip to South America (he just had, but via a different
route). Another possibility is that they thought they were shooting at a Russian intruder returning to Russia. But the theory
that, according to Parry, is taken most seriously by elements of our intelligence community, is that the shoot-down was intended
as a false flag operation which could be blamed on the rebels or Russians. (These intelligence sources believe that the Ukrainian
central government was unaware of this plot.) If this is the case, then the ploy worked admirably, as the MH-17 shoot-down
was used to justify turning up the intensity of sanctions imposed on Russia – and most Americans still assume as a matter of
course that Russia or its rebel allies were responsible.
The most significant development since I wrote this is that the Russian-manufactured BUK whose fragments were found among the
wreckage and is presumed to have shot down MH17, was shown to have been transferred to the Ukrainian SSR prior to the dissolution
of the USSR, and hence must have been in the possession Ukraine when it became independent. This of course markedly strengthens
the case that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the shoot down.
There is however continued speculation that Ukrainian fighter jets also attacked MH17, as maintained by retired pilot Peter
Haisenko.
If we take it [a hacked audio conversation] seriously, it casts an interesting light on a once popular theory that Ukrainian
SU-25 jets, claimed by Russia to have tailed MH-17 (
https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
- this is disputed by BND), fired upon it. This was supported by the observation that some of the holes in the cockpit of the
MH-17 had an appearance suggestive of machine gun fire.
Nonetheless, this theory cannot explain the bulk of the holes in the cockpit, and the conclusion that a BUK missile was
mainly responsible for downing the plane appears sound. This hack suggests a scenario in which an SU-25 fired on the jet but
was unable to bring it down, in part because, as is well known, it is difficult for such jets to fly at the 33,000 foot altitude
at which MH-17 was flying. This might explain a report that the plane veered sharply before it plummeted to earth. As the jet
attack had failed in its objective, a BUK missile was required to bring MH-17 down.
An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian
Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?),
lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at
too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17.
The fact that the fighter jet theory has received no attention from the Ukraine-organized JIT (Joint Investigation Team) tasked
with investigating the shoot down is hardly surprising, since involvement of Ukrainian jets would evidently point the finger at
Ukraine as the culprit. Incredibly, this UN-recognized JIT agreed up-front that Ukraine, one of the chief suspects in the tragedy,
would have veto rights over the JIT's report.
We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was
it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot
down on the rebels?
The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone
near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility.
The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg
scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into
Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take
down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day. This narrative is "supported" in the main by photos and audios
helpfully provided by Ukrainian intelligence, some of which have been found to be doctored. (Who wudda thunk it?!) The JIT
readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests
of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane,
as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.)
Whenever the Western Deep State has a false narrative it wishes to push, Bellingcat can be relied on to concoct "evidence"
supporting it. It has been a key perpetrator of the hoax regarding "Assad gassing his own people". In particular, Bellingcat pushed
the discredited view that Assad's forces had gassed Douma. It has also been intent on blaming Russian intelligence for the attack
on the Skripals.
The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three
Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted
in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants.
The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping
to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy
would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing,
it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied
to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration.
Washington's recent attempt t o use the tragic downing of Malaysian flight MH-17 over the
Donbass region of Ukraine, which occurred on July 17, 2014 is nothing short of pathetic.
Instead of making an attempt to bring to justice those responsible for this crime it tries
instead to unleash yet another wave of anti-Russian hysteria. In this situation, it's only
logical that this latest attempt has gone down in flames yet again.
It would seem that everything was done in accordance with a carefully drafted script. We've
had a major media show with the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) coming forward to announce that
the investigation was nearing closure. It's curious that among those countries that have sent
their representatives to JIT one can find Ukraine, a possible perpetrator of the attack on
MH-17, alongside the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia, and Belgium. Then we had the typical bad
guy – Russia, that in the opinion of the JIT was most certainly responsible for the
downing of MH-17 and the untimely demise of 298 people. Western puppets would even go as far as
to release the names of four people allegedly responsible for the attack.
As for the puppeteers, they would use the head of the US Department of State, Michael Pompeo
for making appeals to Russia to immediately put in jail those people the JIT described as
perpetrators.
However, this entire propaganda push would only work on day-to-day consumers of American
media, who still believe that Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi "got what they deserved" and
that Iran and North Korea somehow represent some sort of threat to the international community.
However, there's an ever growing number of people in the world who wouldn't fall for such lies
anymore, as they've seen them all too often before.
There's little doubt that the Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad is among such
people, as he made it
pretty clear that there's no proof whatsoever of Russia's involvement in the downing of
MH-17. In fact, he would claim that:
" We are very unhappy because from the very beginning it became a political issue on
how to accuse Russia of the wrongdoing So far there is no proof. Only hearsay."
In turn, the founder of the conservative Dutch party Forum for Democracy, Thierry Baudet
would announce that he has no confidence whatsoever in the JIT and its impartiality, while
pointing out that Ukraine must be responsible for this attack.
According to Heise, there's
no doubt that Kiev is fully responsible for this tragedy, as it had failed to close the
airspace over the contested territories of Donbass and withheld evidence from the
investigation. It would add that the Dutch Safety Board was conducting its own investigation of
the downing and at some point was convinced that Kiev was behind this attack, however it left a
legal loophole for Kiev for it to escape any consequences. As for Russia, Heise argues, it was
decided to name it responsible for this tragedy, since Ukraine was acting on Washington's
behalf in this downing and it will continue enjoying its protection.
It's curious that t he JIT final report has left a lot of questions unanswered, most of them
emerge due to the absence of any actual evidence that could allow this body to allocate
responsibility for the catastrophe to some party and could be used in court. Yet, the
Netherlands and Australia were quick to announce that they had no doubt whatsoever, even though
JIT would cite pictures and messages taken from social media as their sources of information.
It didn't bother those behind the so-called final report that they had no access to the
Pentagon's satellite images and any sort of data from Ukrainian radars, even though those could
serve as actual evidence along with similar data Russia provided to shed light on the actual
perpetrators of the attack.
The claims that certain Western media sources would make, about the downing of MH17
"rallying the West against Russia" can only be described as laughable, even though it's clear
that this was Washington's initial intention which led to the release of the "final report"
Yet another attempt to present Russia as a bogeyman has garnered no sympathy in Europe,
especially against the backdrop of revelations London has recently made about the role of its
intelligence agencies in the downing of PA 103 three decades ago. Back then a bomb that
exploded on board Pan American Flight 103, en route from London to New York was used to
undermine Libya and warrant the overthrow of its leader – Muammar Qaddafi. What this
false-flag essentially required was the falsification of evidence and the conviction in a
rigged court proceeding of the wrong man. The extent of that operation has recently been
exposed in a partial release of British Government documents from the UK ' s National
Archives.
It's been noted that those archive disclosures also show that the same modus operandi has
been under way since 2014 to fabricate blame for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight
MH17 over Ukraine, and justify global sanctions against Russia, plus operations to overthrow
Vladimir Putin.
That is why Malaysia must take the investigation into its own hands and receive all the
necessary assistance from the international community to establish who was responsible for the
MH17 downing. It's clear that the JIT was more concerned with pleasing Washington than
establishing the truth.
*
Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your
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Grete Mautner is an independent researcher and journalist from Germany, exclusively for
the online magazine " New Eastern
Outlook. "
"... That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky. ..."
"... However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in Western media. ..."
"... On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah. ..."
"... There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects (Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity in MH17. ..."
"... MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm. ..."
"... The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia. ..."
"... Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. ..."
First there was the Dutch-led inquiry into downing of the Malaysian MH17 airliner, which put
the finger of blame on Russia for the disaster in 2014 when all 298 people onboard were
killed.
That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian
culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT)
continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels
who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky.
Despite its evident failures of due process, nonetheless Western governments and media have
lent the JIT allegations (slanders) undue credibility. The US, Britain and other NATO members
last week called on Russia to comply with the JIT "investigation", smearing Moscow as guilty of
causing the MH17 deaths.
However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous
hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in
Western media.
For its part, Russia has vehemently
rejected allegations of involvement in the MH17 disaster, as have pro-Russian Ukrainian
rebels. Russia's repeated offers of contributing information to the probe have been rebuffed by
the Dutch-led JIT. By contrast, Russia's own investigation has uncovered credible radar and
forensic evidence that an anti-aircraft missile fired at the passenger jet actually came from
military forces under the Kiev regime's command. Russia's evidence has been steadfastly ignored
by Western media reports.
The credible suspect party -- Kiev political and intelligence authorities -- have been
allowed to participate in and frame the JIT probe to inculpate Russia. The US, European Union
and NATO back the Neo-Nazi dominated regime in Kiev, financially and
militarily , since it seized power in a violent coup d'état back in 2014. That
should be the real focus of scandal in the MH17 story.
On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have
continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy
an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and
President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah.
Now contrast the undue priority given to the above dubious JIT claims with two other reports
also out last week.
One was on the horrific death toll among civilians in
Yemen inflicted by the Western-backed Saudi-led war on that country. It is estimated that over
90,000 people have been killed in violence over the past four years, with most of the civilian
victims caused by indiscriminate Saudi air strikes.
It is an indisputable fact that the US, Britain, France, Germany and other NATO powers have
been arming the Saudi regime with warplanes, helicopters, missiles and logistics to carry out
this slaughter of Yemeni civilians. The Western states are complicit in war crimes.
President Trump continues to defy US lawmakers by ordering multi-billion-dollar arms sales
to Saudi Arabia, despite the carnage. The British government and wannabe prime minister Boris
Johnson claims that its weapons exports are not involved in killing Yemeni civilians, in
blatant denial of the facts.
A British court last week
ruled that UK weapons exports were in breach of its own supposed ethical codes protecting
civilian lives in conflicts. The British government is set to appeal the court ruling and will
likely ignore it anyway given the systematic relationship of Britain arming Saudi Arabia -- the
UK's biggest weapons export market -- year after year.
Western media last week, as usual, gave only minimal reporting on the shocking human
suffering in Yemen. The whole barbarity and Western governments' culpability is largely
hushed-up and omitted by the media.
... ... ...
Meanwhile, the US and its NATO allies impose sanctions on Russia based on unsubstantiated
allegations about MH17, Ukraine, Crimea, election meddling, the Skripal spy poisoning affair,
among other fabrications. Those sanctions -- based on flimsy innuendo -- are leading to
ever-worsening relations with Russia and international tensions between nuclear powers. Western
media do not expose the insanity, they foment it.
Such media are unwilling and incapable of pointing out this gross double standard. They
propagate the double standard.
The moral bankruptcy of Western governments must be covered up by a servile media. Because
the state, corporate power and media are all complicit.
Truth, justice and democracy, which they pontificate about, have nothing to do with the
functioning of Western capitalist power; they're mere illusions to distract from systematic
criminality. Last week was an object lesson for those willing to see it.
There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects
(Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity
in MH17.
MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the
war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane
entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm.
The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia.
In Kiev, the "Khazar mafia" is strong, more precisely Chabad Lyubavichi (headquarters in
New York). Kolomoisky (a member of Chabad Lyubavichi and the owner of the Nazi death squads in the former Ukraine) ...
Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose
being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. The whore running the recruit victim
country is promised personal bribes, and the security services of the gang which it must also
support and pay for, in return for forgoing a degree of sovereignty. NATO is just another NWO
one centrally managed world scam.
First, let's look at Bellingcat involvement in Ukraine.
On July 11th 2014 an event happened that shook my world, literally. Bellingcat
reported that the Russians attacked Ukrainian armed forces from across the border in
Zelenopillya. The Ukrainians suffered traumatic losses. Once again, Eliot Higgins provides the
data to determine this. Once again Bellingcat was wrong about the origin of the attack.
This single battle marked the turning point for the entire war. The Donbass militia went on
a large offensive for the first time and destroyed a big Ukrainian encampment with a rocket
attack.
How can I afford to be so assertive? At 4:30 in the morning on July 11th every house in my
town started shaking because of the massive explosions going on at Zelenopillya. I did say it
shook my world, didn't I?
I was between the Russian border and the camp. We could see the smoke from the rockets and
the
sky was lit with the explosions . The
explosions were loud enough to wake the dead that morning. There were no rockets flying
over my head. For Russia to fire them, that's exactly where they would have been.
At that point we were under Ukrainian occupation for a couple of months. Two days before the
attack on Zelenopillya happened, a Ukrainian army officer told the post master to get the
children out of town within 2 days. The army was pulling out and a cleansing battalion (Donbas
battalion) was coming in to weed out "separatists and supporters." That was when I came face to
face with Mark
Paslowsky, the American nazi . The article gives his background and tells what was going
on.
Bellingcat misidentifies the weapon as artillery. Grad rockets were fired at Zelenopillya by
the Rovenki militia that day. I spoke with the militia that fired them about 1 week after the
fact. In the linked articles the Ukrainians state plainly that it was militia using Grad
rockets.
The Ukrainians took some of their wounded across the border to Russia. It's not quite
something you do if Russia was really attacking you. The worst injuries were treated locally.
Donbass people ran there after the battle to help the wounded and the Ukrainian soldiers were
treated at local hospitals. Ukraine abandoned them.
The story got a lot of play in the west in the west as a Russian attack on Ukraine thanks to
this event. It was added to the list of reasons to sanction Russia. If the attack on
Zelenopillya didn't happen, I probably wouldn't be here to write this.
For the third time on an important event, Bellingcat shows it cannot identify the origin or
firing location of a weapon and misidentifies both the weapon type and the direction of fire in
media.
Getting the facts straight about the MH-17 shoot down is the difference between hundreds of
families getting justice and closure for those deaths or never seeing it. Convict the wrong
party and justice is never served. New victims are made with false or erroneous evidence.
Bellingcat's importance to the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) investigation of MH-17 is
apparent through all the media Higgins and Toler are quoted in media as the independent
experts.
That last statement should grab your attention. Bellingcat and its founders Elliot Higgins
and Aric Toler's credibility rests on the fact that they are independent researchers. If they
are working for an interested party in any investigation, Bellingcat's credibility is destroyed
and their research means nothing. After all, it's been paid for.
Bellingcat really grabbed the public's attention and imagination after the shoot down of
flight MH-17 over Ukraine. Independent researchers Higgins and Toler went to work to find the
missile launch site and the responsible parties, or did they?
As early as February 2014, Higgins showed the beginning of a clear pattern regarding
Ukraine. In the tweet below this OSINT expert researcher was linking to a
1 month old blog started by
Sviatoslav Yurash . What's special about Yurash at this time is that he was Ukrainian
ultranationalist Dimitry Yarosh's English language spokesman. If that well known fact wasn't
enough to caution Higgins, what was?
In the next article to follow, starting with Yurash as the first example, I'll show you how
all these volunteer experts including Higgins get paid. The article will further cement and
establish the relationships between Bellingcat, Weisburd, Watts and other intel and news
headline providers with each other as well as their employers.
For now, the admission made by the Ukrainian Information Ministry and Aric Toler will have
to be enough.
In
addition, already 21 November Dmitry Zolotukhin met with his US counterpart, team
representative Bellingcat Arik Toler , who conducted a similar training for journalists in Kyiv
on the invitation of Media Development Foundation. They also discussed the possibility of
holding a conference in Kiev on thematic instruments OSINT-use techniques in the modern media."
One of the Media Development Center's
sponsors is NATO . It is a project of the US Embassy in Kiev because of the association
with the embassy's diplomatic paper, the Kyiv Post.
If that isn't enough, let's see how close Bellingcat's Aric Toler views the
relationship.
According to both Information Policy Advisor Dmitry Zolotukhin and Toler, they are partners.
Eric Toler and Eliot Higgins(Bellingcat), along with Aaron Weisburd, Clint Watts, and
Joel
Harding have been working with the same Ukrainian Information Ministry that started the
"Mytorovyets" or Peacekeeper website.
They help the SBU geo-locate people in Ukraine. As shown above, they also train people to
geo-locate anyone considered anti-Maidan or anti-nationalist in Ukraine. They didn't
disappoint.
I think this pretty well sums up how independent Bellingcat's investigation has been. To add
insult to injury, Higgins and Toler work directly with previously identified Ukrainian
Intelligence hackers and Pravy Sektor members (ultra-nationalist Ukrainians) to get Bellingcat
"independent research" information.
InformNapalm and its hackers are Ukrainian Intel agents working for the Information
Ministry. In their own words – The main activities of the project are
collecting and analysing OSINT-information , found in open
sources, including social networks. InformNapalm's investigation of 53rd Artillery Brigade
commander colonel Sergei Muchkayev, suspected of killing the MH17 passengers, was used in
the report of the Bellingcat research team .
Who was the information source for independent researchers at Bellingcat? Dimitry Yarosh's
best friend, Valentyn Nalivaychenko was one of them. In the spring of 2014, he replaced
SBU(Ukraine's Security Service) personnel with ultra-nationalists because they had the right
ideology. Another was Anton Gerashchenko who is responsible for persecuting the press in
Ukraine.
In
few days and hours after the crash of MH17 Ukrainian officials widely publicly discussed
all that data (except the photo of "Paris Match") anonymously downloaded by someone to social
nets. For example on July 17 Gerashchenko (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the photo
of Buk at Torez; on July 18 Avakov (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the video of Buk
at Luhansk; also on July 18 Nalivaychenko (the chief of Ukrainian security service) showed the
video of Buk at Snizhne, and on July 19 Vitaliy Naida (Ukrainian security service) showed shot
fragment of video frame (not the video itself) from Zugres.
Under the best circumstances Bellingcat's research can only be seen as a Ukrainian
Intelligence production. If neither Higgins or Toler were actively engaged with Ukrainian
operations on the many levels that they are, their source material is still very tainted. When
all your research material comes from a party under investigation, you are no longer a neutral
party. You can't pee in a blood sample and call it evidence. Are Higgins and Toler credible?
You decide.
Max van der Werff has become a go-to resource for understanding information about MH-17. I
have spoken at length with Max and his fellow researchers @bellingmouse. This linked article shows the strength of research
these REAL volunteers have brought to the MH-17 investigation . I had to ask Max the great
who-dun-it question. His response was after thousands of hours of research, he didn't know. Too
many people were withholding information and remaining uncooperative on all sides.
What he was sure of is that Bellingcat's research is shoddy and a lot of the evidence
appears fabricated.
Max van der Werf has been interviewed by the JIT investigative team on 4 occasions, given
over 6 hours of recorded interviews to them, as well as over 14GB of data.
Examples of this include the fact that all of the images and video are such low quality and
resolution, it's impossible to make definite determinations from them.
One of the chase vehicles (jeep) in Bellingcat's BUK convoy is driving with the door open.
In another image of the BUK transport supposedly taken by a local resident, the apartment was
not occupied in the summer of 2014. There was no one there to take the image. It was again so
grainy and low quality that even a military vehicle substitution was not noticeable. None of
the neighbors that were there saw a BUK on a trailer.
The route of travel according to Bellingcat would have taken the BUK launcher toward the
conflict zone twice while battles were being fought across the region. Anyone familiar with the
area or that had a map would take a direct route which would have made it much less noticeable
driving through unpopulated areas.
Images taken after the shoot down are just as bad. Some unimportant parts of the image are
in focus while it's almost impossible to make out the BUK even though it's right beside the
photographer.
The so-called wire-tapped conversation was proven to be a Ukrainian SBU production. How is
it still a part of the evidence chain?
What van der Werff and @bellingmouse have proven unequivocally is that another investigation
needs to take place that looks for real evidence. The JIT, for their part had the impossible
task of investigating a hostile shoot-down of a jetliner with no previous airline disaster
investigation experience in a war zone that was active. The problem with it is objectivity was
thrown out the window as soon as Ukraine got the right to reject evidence and control what
would be made public.
What has looking for Ruskies done? In the eyes of Congress it made you and every publication
that strives for neutral information or even writing from their political slant a Ruskie. You
work for Vladimir Putin.
It has taken away any hope of justice for people in Syria and the families of MH-17 victims
unless real neutral investigations take place.
It's taken away real news from the masses and replaced it with policy pieces from people
that get paid to hate you. You are after all, the Russian interference that they talk
about.
"... I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President. ..."
What will prove to the real big lasting news over the last couple of week was when the
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad called the Joint Investigation Team's (JIT)
position on the MH17 case politically motivated and unproven:
"We are very unhappy, because from the very beginning it was a political issue on how to
accuse Russia of wrongdoing,"
This is tantamount to the Malaysian Prime Minster saying Russia was framed and is getting
really close to the likelihood that the shooting down of MH17 with 298 deaths was an
intentional American plan/act (Ukraine would not have done it without US instruction). There
are so many strange things about the shooting down of the MH-17 that it really is very
unlikely that Russia or the Donetsk or Luhansk rebels had anything to do with it.
Now think what that means. The MH-17 was shot down in 2014 very likely as part of a US
plan to frame Russia while Obama was President. And you Americans have no real concern about
this? You don't exert any kind of pressure on your representatives, you just don't think it's
important.
I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be
normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These
rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because
they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but
they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself
that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President.
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad is generally always outspoken and defies the
establishment... when i was in malaysia in 2016 i happened to pick up his autobiography which
i quite enjoyed.. i am happy to see he is back and speaking his mind.. it's always refreshing
even if a person doesn't agree with him.. he is also one of the few leaders in the world
today that i actually consider a 'leader'... the malaysians are lucky to still have him as pm
today...
The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start.
The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated
in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US
ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.
Russia reacted by "annexing"
Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access to its only warm water port.
Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian origin- also didn't want
to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil war which continues to
this day.
It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality.
3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives
from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.
Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect,
a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in
the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious. The countries even
signed a secret agreement.
Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today
candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since
there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the
time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.
In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from Russia
and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team produced
no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.
It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's
just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And
there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have
been ignored.
The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither
does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.
So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves?
Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened
to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?
There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that.
Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay.
I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because
he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.
And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year
to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March
2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.
The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only
accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases
the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.
On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked
down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers
were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.
I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018,
MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven,
which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says: " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic - which the Ukrainian
team asserts it to be - then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."
Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile,
it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as
multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane.
It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.
There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain
that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading
the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done.
And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.
Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and
then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them
all over Crimea.
But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything
that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like
that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.
Joint Research Team (JIT) – etterforskningsteamet created in 2014 to investigate the
crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 over Eastern Ukraine on 17. July 2014, which resulted
in 298 deaths-announced the 19. June that the public prosecution in the Netherlands shall
criminally prosecute four persons for murder.
The four suspects – Igor Girkin, Sergeij Dubinskij, Oleg Juldasjevitsj (all three
russians) and Leonid Khartsjenko (Ukrainian citizen) – were, and are in some cases still
are, active as leaders of the Russian-supported separatism uprising in Donbass. They are now
facing international arrest orders and will be brought to justice on the 9th. March 2020. Since
the Netherlands cannot require extradiction from either Russia or Ukraine, it is likely that
the case will be brought, and that the defendants will be sentenced in absentia.
The four men, as well as the Russian government, claim that they did not at all have any
dealings with the plane crash. The Russian president Vladimir Putin reiterated Russia's
rejection of the JIT, the commission, and said during a "åpenlinje" the questioning at
the Russian TV last Friday that he was "completely disagree" with the evidence that the
commission promoted.
The Malaysian president Mahathir Mohamad condemned the charges as politically motivated:
"What the us concern, we will have evidence on skyldighet. But so far there is no evidence.
Just rumors."
The shooting down of the plane happened at the height of the crisis in Ukraine and civil war
in 2014, triggered by the united STATES - and Germany-supported the coup in Kiev in 2014, which
was led by fasciststyrker and parts of the Ukrainian oligarchat, in close collaboration with
Washington and Berlin. The Ukrainian and the us government, the EUROPEAN union and the
international bourgeois media rushed to accuse Russia for the shooting down of the plane, even
before any alleged evidence was presented. It was utilized as a new variant of "Gulf of
Tonkin", a vague and dubious military event that imperialistmaktene could use as a pretext for
war.
The MH-17 case has been out of limelight in recent years. The military structure toward
Russia, led by the united STATES and NATO, and the U.S.-led economic warfare against the
country, however, has accelerated.
The announcement last week about the criminal persecution came at the same time with an
escalation of both the Trump administration's krigsforberedelser against Iran, which could
trigger a direct conflict with Russia, and The democratic party's ongoing campaign against
Trump, focusing on his allegedly "soft" attitude to Russia. It also comes at the same time with
the growing conflicts between the united STATES and the european imperialistmaktene, especially
Germany, among others, of Russian gassforsyninger to Germany through the pipeline
NordStream2.
The western bourgeois press jumped on the announcement and produced a flood of comments,
which the New York Times' redaksjonsråd suggested that flystyrten was not less than
"state-sponsored murder". International media such as Der Spiegel essentially presented JIT's
announcement and "discovery" for its readers as facts.
The Washington Post wrote that the "international investigators" had "worked diligently to
uncover the truth" and "peel away Russia's lies about the downed Malaysian Airlines plane". The
newspaper rejected without further evidence presented by the Russian federation for a possible
Ukrainian involvement as "false".
In fact, JIT's announcement of the criminal prosecution of these four men is based on
ancient discoveries that have no credibility. JIT investigation are significantly biased and
part of a massive campaign to exploit the 298 men's tragic death in order to escalate the
antiRussland krigsforberedelser. After almost five years with this "investigation" has not been
presented any evidence of Russian state involvement, and significant evidence which points to a
potential Ukrainian involvement has been deliberately suppressed.
JITs "findings" that claim that a Russian SA-11 BUK-missile system allegedly was carried by
the Russian army to russiskstøttede østukrainske the separatists were
continuously referred to as "evidence" of Russian involvement.
An engraver report by journalist Robert Parry in 2016 pointed to several holes and
contradictions in this version. The other piece of "evidence" is barely audible phone calls,
supposedly avlytninger of the Russian military sources, which should indicate that the SA-11
BUK-missilsystemet was deliberately delivered to the separatists. These calls refers, however,
not at any point explicitly to the missle system or to transport across the Russian-Ukrainian
border.
The fact that not only Russian but also American and Dutch intelligence has found evidence
suggesting Ukrainian involvement, is entirely omitted from the official press coverage.
In October 2015 raised the Dutch intelligence service MIVD that the only
high-energy-antifly-missilsystemene in Eastern Ukraine could have shot down MH-17, where it was
flying at 33 000 feet altitude belonged to the Ukrainian military.
An anonymous u.s. intelligence analyst explained in 2015 that "finally, the analysis pointed
at a non-authorized Ukrainian operation, which involved a pro-regime oligarch. "Malaysian news
media reported as early as in august 2014 that the official representative for American
intelligence assumed that the aircraft had been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet. Official
Russian militærrepresentanter has also released radar data that seemed to show a
Ukrainian jetfighter of the type Sukhoi-25 behind the passasjerflyet MH 17 at the time it was
shot down.
JIT-etterforskningens primary goal has been to suppress and divert attention from any
evidence that suggests the Ukrainian rather than the Russian involvement. Not a single report
produced by the commission in the last five years have once tried to avsanne the evidence
pointing to the Ukrainian military involvement in the nedskyvningen of the aircraft. They were
simply ignored.
This is no coincidence. Contrary to the way it is presented by the media, JIT is not an
independent body of "international investigators". It includes representatives of the Dutch,
belgian, malaysian and Ukrainian government and the secret services. From the very beginning,
the Russian government has been excluded from participating in the investigations.
Although Ukraine itself should have been considered as a suspected part in any serious
investigation, not only the cooperation JIT with Kiev, but operated under an agreement that
made it possible for the Ukrainian government to veto the release of information. There could
hardly have been a more obvious case of disqualification.
The Ukrainian secret service (SBU), who was heavily involved in both the
imperialiststøttede fascistkuppet in Kiev in February 2014, and in subsequent operations
of the ytrehøyrekrefter in the civil war, was Ukraine's official representative in the
JIT. The SBU massively influenced the investigation.
An internal JIT report from 2016, said: "Since the first week in september 2014 has
investigators from the Netherlands and Australia worked here [in Kiev]. They work here in close
cooperation with Ukraine's security service (SBU). Immediately after the crash, the SBU gave
access to a large number of tapped phone calls and other data. ... While at first it was rather
formal, cooperation with the SBU has become more and more flexible. 'Particularly because of
the data analysis we were able to prove our added value,' says [the Dutch politirepresentaten]
Gert Van Doorn. 'Since then, we see in every way that they associate with us in an open way.
They share their questions with us, and think with, as much as they can.'"
It was, incidentally, also SBU who provided the avlyttede the phone calls and other
materials that are now being universally referred to as "evidence" for a Russian
involvement.
Despite these obvious contradictions and violations of the legitimate
etterforskningsprosedyre, presented JITs "findings" and the actions that are credible,
definitive "proof" for the "Russian guilt". This witness again to what lengths bourgeois media
and western imperialister is prepared to go, in their criminal and dangerous campaign against
Russia – a ruthless campaign that could trigger a war between the world's two largest
atomvåpenmakter.
Regarding the JIT indictments, the JIT has dropped all pretense of
objectivity, which isn't surprising since it was a criminal co-conspiracy
from its inception. They have now revealed themselves as nothing but
a hit squad and lynch mob for the real perpetrators. Russia should
be building a case for a criminal referral of the JIT to the ICC.
It has a pretty solid case since the JIT investigation has devolved into
an obscene travesty involving reams of incriminating actions by the JIT,
which has willfully smothered all the hard, factual, scientific evidence
and fraudulently promoted all the fake, phony fabrications of the high perps.
Charging the JIT with collusion in mass murder may be a reach, but the indictments
of Strelkov et alia is so off the wall and batshit insane there surely must be
grounds for prosecutorial misconduct.
I agree the JIT has become a fraudulent enterprise. To publicly announce indictments while
simultaneously pleading for witnesses to step forward to help confirm the theory on which the
indictments are based - that is not a judicial procedure as commonly understood. The JIT has
taken like OPCW - a public relations arm of NATO concerned solely with filtering biased
information to western publics.
"... The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors. ..."
"... Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even signed a secret agreement. ..."
"... Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced. ..."
"... " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side." ..."
"... Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points. ..."
"... Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea. ..."
"... The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth. ..."
"... The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk farce. ..."
"... ...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have dishonored by their actions and lies. ..."
"... Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly one case where red/blue team were on the same team. ..."
"... Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government. That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands. ..."
"... So think about that when talking about the "neutrality" of The Netherlands in the MH17 investigation. ..."
"... How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles. The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident. ..."
The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start.
The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and
culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland
and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.
Russia reacted by "annexing" Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access
to its only warm water port. Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian
origin- also didn't want to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil
war which continues to this day.
It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality.
3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives
from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.
Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect,
a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in
the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even
signed a secret agreement.
Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and
today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious,
since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk
at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.
In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from
Russia and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team
produced no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.
It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's
just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And
there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have
been ignored.
The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither
does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.
So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves?
Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened
to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?
There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that.
Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay.
I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because
he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.
And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year
to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March
2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.
The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only
accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases
the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.
On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked
down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers
were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.
I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018,
MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's
Guilt Now Proven , which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says:
" if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts
Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."
Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK
missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came
down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of
the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.
There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain
that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading
the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done.
And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.
Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities
and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted
them all over Crimea.
But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything
that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like
that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.
Malaysia has had combative relations Israel for decades. Mossad is the most likely culprit in the shoot down of MH-17. That's
how Israelis work. You don't do what they tell you to do, they stage a mass-shooting or a bombing....... or shoot down a plane
full of innocent civilians. No cost is too great for the chosenites.
" By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War" ...... pretty much all you need to know.
The investigation is much like that mock-up of the downed craft - 40 percent missing and 90 percent empty. What evidence there
is has been 'filtered' through Kyiv or 'created' by Bellingcat. The rest is the stuff of news conferences.
The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating
their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised
the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth.
I would hope the upcoming trial is held in an open, preferrably international, venue where the 'evidence' will be tested instead
of being merely 'read into the court record'. If Russia-which has the most to lose - has anything to do with that - three Russian
citizens gave been charged - it will be.
The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing
with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk
farce.
A jet fighter approached MH17 from the right side of MH17, firing for some secs (at 25 rounds/sec) at the cockpit then crossing
the MH17 track, approaching from the left side and firing again at the cockpit.
The publically available pictures of the MH17 left side cockpit wall show the effects of the powerful 30mm Grazyev-Shipunov
aircraft guns and the formidable kinetic energy of the bullets. Such bullets flew through the B777 airframe and exited through
the other side piercing everything in the way. The gun barrels must be replaced each time after firing 2000 rounds!!!
In the MH17 cockpit wall there are holes showing bullets flying into it from both directions, a feat never ever demonstrated
by one single warhead explosion because all shrapnels start flying from one point.
The attack clearly started by eliminating the pilots, so there was no Mayday call from MH17 or other distress signals. When
such a large B777 aiframe is hit by a misslie, it still continues to fly for some minutes and the pilots could eventually manage
to report the attack (by a jet fighter). The planners of this attack knew this stuff and prevented the pilots from sending emergency
calls by killing them first. Thereafter the jet fighter launched an air-to-air missile. All anti-air missiles aim not at the cockpit
(as JIT fraudulently reports about the BUK) but at the middle of the fuselage where they explode a few meters from the target.
This jet fighter air-to-air missile, launched after taking down the pilots, finished MH17.
The DSB / JIT MH17 BUK theory is a complete lie, clearly politically motivated and quite easy to debunk.
The NATO and EU expansion hit a snag in 2014 when Donbass rose up against the coup installed government in Kiev. A false flag
to blame the rebels was badly needed. How many innocents were to perish was nobody's concern when the attack on MH17 was planned.
Now it's all about the cover-up: JIT and their governments, Bellingcat, main stream media, all are tuned to hide the truth.
Next to enter the game is the Dutch "judiciary", an incredibly corrupt structure, especially in the Netherlands.
" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. "
Not true, I live in a country next to Russia and I don't believe that Russians did it. Mainly because at the time I have read
what Russians have to say about it and looked at the presented evidence. Besides even some US based websites that are more independent
confirmed most of what Russkies had to say.
So I exclude that Russians did have a hand in that tragedy.
But on another hand I accuse Russians to at least have a knowledge and some of their proven beyond doubt actions points to
their guilt or co-guilt in downing Polish presidential plane at Smolensk few years ago. In that catastrophe entire Polish political
elite perished and it is beyond doubt that it was either sabotage or plane was shot down as parts of the plane fell on the ground
well before it hit anything on land. There were many people in Poland at that time that could do it and did have compelling motive
to do it but actions of Russian ground crew at the airport are highly suspicious as well. At a minimum they knew and aided whoever
was responsible for it and it definitely pilot mistake has to be excluded. Anyway Russians till today do not want to release wreck
of the plane and people who ruled Poland at the time were close to Russian regime.
...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially
Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have
dishonored by their actions and lies.
Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly
one case where red/blue team were on the same team.
Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government.
That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands.
Thanks for the links. The Netherlands have done a disservice to themselves - the Russians, although not vindictive, do not
forget anything and especially do not forgive. On the part of the Dutch, it was extremely stupid. Well, it is clear they really
wanted to return their gold reserves from the United States.
Israeli crash plane carried sarin chemical - Israel has a private airfield in the Netherlands - not subject to Dutch scrutiny
- Jews OWN Netherlands - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/184288.stm
- ancient 1998 BBC article - Israeli cargo plane crashes into Amsterdam neighborhood -
"The state-run Israeli airline, El Al, has confirmed that an El Al cargo plane which crashed into a block of flats in Amsterdam
in 1992 was carrying a chemical used to produce the nerve gas sarin.... Up to 300 people are believed to be suffering from
the effects Since the crash, six years ago, many residents near the site of the crash have complained of mysterious illnesses.
A report published on Wednesday by the Dutch health ministry showed that local doctors believed up to 300 residents could be
suffering from effects caused by the accident. They range from depression and nervousness to fatigue and listlessness. Cargo
was heading to Israeli plant"
Even the Malaysians have come out and called this thing rigged. The West has its head buried up its own *** with short sighted
Russophobia. Its sad to see the Dutch being the errand boys of the evil empire on this one.
How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles.
The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident.
Malaysia should consider recalling all the evidence back and restarting the investigation by an undisclosed independent party.
Without the truth, there will be no closure for the victims' families.
These two events happened during the former prime minister's term. He was compromised because he used the western banking system
for his corruption (1MDB scandal). By doing that, they owned him, and he couldn't do what's right for the nation/people.
Here's a thought: Russia doesn't behave like a ******* ****** hence not much to criticize. The ones making dumb mistakes get
criticized and they happen to be running the West at the moment.
Cuz Russia is not the country that meddles in most countries elections in the world - not Russia. What country has military
bases in most countries of the world - not Russia. What country has been effecting Regime Change in many, many countries around
the world for the last 50 years - not Russia. Kinda hard to write a lot about Russia when some other country is hogging
the corruption.
Fed-up with being Sick and Tired , 3 hours ago
link
" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. " Why not simply
use this phrase: "Everyone has been convinced, through propaganda, that Russia did it."
A stellar example of International Rule of Law in action. Something the Chinese will be all too happy to emulate. Everything is done to manipulate the dumb sheeple. Hypocrisy Unlimited
John Helmer, the only independent Western journalist in Moscow, has always had the best write ups about MH-17 and the travesty
of the truth that this fake investigation is all about. And the scam of an inquest in Victoria, Australia.
MH17 PROSECUTION -- THE DUTCH FIRE THEIR BIG GUNS, THE SUBJUNCTIVE AND CONDITIONAL TENSES, PLUS UKRAINIAN SECRET SERVICE TAPES
MH17 shot down by the Ukraine, a major false flag. But it seems for neocons no amount of murder is too much for their false flags. It is a total ******* joke to think Russia in any way could benefit from shooting down a plane like that, for any reason.
1. In 2001, one month after 9/11 Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner (Siberian airlines flight 1812) and admitted it. (operator
error of the Buk system.)
What happened is by-and-large known now and the conclusions already were made: instead of
the attempt to find the real culprits, West is engaged in politicized shamanism.This activily
does not represnt any intetrrest to the Russian society. . The US, the Europeans, particularly
the Netherlands, used MH17 story only as an excuse to once again poke a stick in the Russian
bear. Nothing less, nothing more. Everybody understadn tht thre real court trial is hopeless as
it is impossible to prove Russian guil based on availble evidence. But someone wants to
continue this propaganda campaign, to chew the poisoness mushroom so to speak and produce new
hallucinations. The last episode of this long-running "show" was so called "preliminary
announcement of the findings of the investigation."
Allowing Ukrainian participation is
like allowing a rabbit into the cabbage plantation Basically, for any normal person the
question of who would be most likely to shoot down MH17, long gone: it is made of the inept
Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners, who have at least one previous episode of shooting the
passenger aircraft. Remember downed Tu-154 in 2001, when a series of downright stupid human
errors lead to the rocket which failed to engage a low-flying targets captures and shooted down
a distant and high flying airliner.
Nobody checked checked that recapured occured and as the result all passenger died.
and Ukraine persistently refused to admit guilt. But at this point there were no "Maidan
Nazis" and other Post-maydan adventurists in power of the country. At this point it was
relatively "pro-Russian" president Kuchma in power. So this behaviour characterizes very well
the essence of Ukrainian "statehood": there can be no Pro-Russian government in Ukraine, only
somewhat less anti-Russian. Otherwise, the existence of this state somewhat lose its meaning.
In other words the purpose of "project Ukraine" is be ant anti-Russia dog barking at Russia's
front door, and it is desirable that Russia is paid for the barking.
For a normal person the most plausible version of "who shot down the airliner" is evident
and should be investigated to the fullest extent possible. Instead the Joint Investigation Team
(JIT) in the Netherlands was selected to have people with different ideas. In general, this is
a rather strange method of investigation to allow to participate in the investigation team the
representatives of the country, which is one of the main suspects. And the country is in any
case responsible for the accident that occurred over its territory. A country which failed to
blocked international air corridors over the combat zone, where several planes and helicopters
of the Ukranian armed forces was already actively shoot down And this country has been the fact
that comes up with "evidence" so to deflect blame from themselves. Let, in General, the rabbit
(or Ukraine) was allowed to guard the cabbage plantation.
Both Russia and Malaysia which could be countervailing force were excluded from the
investigation, as it would make harder to blame Russia for the incident.
I created you
from what was in hands at the moment The west so adamantly tried to create this political
fake, that it was incapable to do quality job with it. And why? Because it is based mainly on
"data networks", roughly and crudely "corrected" by Ukrainian "independent investigators". In
the photo these investigators anyone can enjoy online and make conclusions for themselves -- to
be Lombroso it is not necessary, there and so all is visible.
The information from another Western propaganda "investigative" outlet "Billingcat" have
even lower level of "reliability" and "impartiality". And also "radio intercepts" and
"wiretapping", were provided the same "genius intelligence" of the SBU. The real facts are
simply swept aside.
Unconvient facts that does not suit selected narrative are simply ignored. and we are
talking not about the fact that all the perpetrators are in the Donesk republic. Even if take
as at face value and assime that JIT version is correct the figures should have some
someconnection to anti-aircraft battries BUK and be trained to used them. But, it seems, JIT
picked up and charged basically people names of which were somehow leked to the West and which
are exposed in the Internet, in social networks and forums, such as the Arrows (Arrow, I.
Girkin), Gloomy (S. Dubinsky) and GURZA, who is also the Caliph (A. Pulatov), or Bat (L.
Kharchenko).
Well, those about whom the SBU bothered to created some fake "intercept conversations".
Anyone who is more or less aware of the course of events spring-summer 2014 from the national
republics, would be aware that these people are absolutely out of action in Dosetsk republic.
But as an insurance JIT mentioned other people, like BES (Bezler) and others. The enrolled in
this basically all Donetsk resistance commenders that existed at the time.
what is stragfe is that that fake interseption were only created up to the level of Surkov
and Aksenov. Bu this logic it would be instumental to concoct conversations with Shoigu,
Gerasimov and especially Putin. After all, every adept of svidomit faith believes in that in
all the political troubles of the Ukrainians and their state's are the fault, of course, Putin.
"Kremlin tyrant" constantly spoil the life of the Ukrainians, for example, he makes Ukranina
politicain to speal bnational wealth and hide money in the Western banks, to devalue the
national currentcy three times (300%) and to raise heating cost to the level whan the people
can;'t aford them, follow the destrive recommendation of the IMF and even burn the light bulbs
in the hallways.
And it is dangerous to question such a key symbol of Svidomit Faith. So it is very strange
that tthey faied to cook a conversation about how Putin orders to shoot down
MH17!
Investigators, blaming Russia, blaming Russian ait forces any conversantion now
can be faked using "deep fake" technology so thier vialue noww is questibale at best.
If additionally you remove "conversations in social networks", the originals of which no
longer exist (the service of "Vkontakte", for example, does not store logs of remote
correspondence for more than six months), and which can be editedt JIT does ot have any real
evidence.
and evidence like "the soldier talking 53-th separate anti-aircraft missile brigade with a
girl" should probably be expcluded taking into account there the name of the gil is unknown and
that that fact that converaion of genuane and not a fake is not given.
Trying to blame the Downing of MH17 equipment on the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from
Kursk, they themselves have accused the Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners. They are absolutely
correctly identified the type of the rocket which was used -- 9M38, which is obsolete and in
Russia on arms did not appear even a few years before the war, but in Ukraine such missiles
were not decomissioned.
Demonstrated JIT last spring, and fragments of the engine and nozzle 9M38 they identified
with serial numbers and symbols of objects (also allowing to define the engine and the nozzle
block, and the very missiles). Serial number in Russia was quickly determined the serial number
of most missiles, and its tail number. Passport to the nozzle block 9Д131 05 000 No.
830113 and form of the rocket engine 9Д131 factory No. 8869032 it was established that
the missile 9M38 were produced on 24 December 1986 and had a serial number 8868720. Because the
account for the movement of manufactured military products military acceptance is reflected in
the register of products that passed control of military acceptance, then you can set the date
and address of delivery.
The 9M38 missile with factory No. 8868720 in the journal acceptance made under the serial
number 74 and the missile was assigned side number 847379. In this case it is added to the
conventional number of the plant-the manufacturer of the product and the year of issue, and in
this form it is applied to the body site. That is, in this case, the room was 886847379.
In addition, the receiving magazine would be clarified and the contract number,
6ИТ-581, and where, under the order of GRAU USSR Ministry of defense were shipped
products. Under the order No. 561/4/001029 of February 28, 1987, this Suhr with tail number
886847379, was sent to in/h 20152, that is to say the 223-th separate anti-aircraft missile
brigade of the Transcarpathian MD of Terebovlya of Ternopil region of Ukraine. There were, of
course, recorded information about the date of the acceptance of these products in the in/h
20152, 19 may 1987, and the date when the manufacturer received this official confirmation on 4
June of the same year. This 223 srbr, "privatized" a nezalezhnikami, in 2000, became a regiment
with the same number. Now the regiment is stationed in Stryi in the Lviv region. The regiment
participated in the fighting in the Donbass, and in 2014 too, which is very important, was in
Donbass during the described period.
The Westen countries not not need the truth, what
the need is the pretext for the santions
logically the data about the production of the rocket should be decisive (as well as the
rest of the array of information provided by the Russian side), This is a solid evidence. which
indirectly expose the guilt of the Ukrainians.
Moreover Ukraniians refuse to provide the data means of objective control with radar as air
traffic control and the duty officers and military radar air defense RTV. Kiev refuses to
provide information about the location of the SAM "Buk-M1" on the day of the disaster -- why
would I, if the fault is not on them?
But Russia has its own data means of objective control (and in fact, given the concentration
of large groups of troops, air defense on the border was strengthened and radar was working
there a lot, and the aircraft a-50 will almost certainly at the moment is also patrolled
"preconflict" zone on our side of the border.
Russia has not yet published this information, but it can declassify it. However, in the
West again "not deemed compelling" given us information.
Assume that the intercept from the side of Russian electronic reconnaissance is also
possible not to consider, although it Ukrainian Colonel Robert Grinchuk, who commanded the
164-th radio brigade air defense openly said that in the event of unresolved technical problems
we "may down another Boeing." Theoretically it can be forged or you can declare it fake.
But the data about to whom the racket which shoot down Boeing belong it more difficult to
forge.
Where is the logic? It is Necessary, however, to say that the "independent
investigators" proded thier own version. Accring to which this rocket was shipped together to
the "Buk-M1" to Georgia shortly before the five-day war (where Ukrainian officers serviced
them), and then, they say, that rocket captured Russian.
And insidiously put obsolete and removed from service on the SAM missiles, sent to the
Donbass. But why? Is it only for the sake of "not getting caught" on the use of inauthentic
Ukraine weapons? Isn't it too difficult?
And why, given subsequent events in summer / autumn 2014? And indeed the "logic" Svidomits,
claiming that "to shoot down the airliner" Russian needed "to officially send troops to the
Donbas," is also flawed. None of this would not be necessary -- everything needed can be
shipped. Without any formal invasion.
Yes, in Georgia Russian Army was captured many trophies. But there are serious doubts that
someone would be put into service of outdated missiles from 9M38 "Buk-M1" with something as
extended operating life. Not to mention the fact that the missiles are known as kept, it is
impossible to exclude and a variety of microcracks as a result, for example, bumps or dropping
missiles in the closure height, above the legal operating rules.
Besides, there was no need for them in Russia as Russia was the modernization program of SAM
"Buk-M1" to "Buk-M1-2" with a replacement for 9M317 missile to 9M38M1. So there was no reason
fro Russia to prolong the life of the missiles. A similar undercurrent of deceit is to put the
warehouse dozens of unnecessary missiles to 7 years to shoot down one of them (completely out
periods of storage and with unpredictable results) on the adjacent territory the passenger
side. Such a version is more suitable to fiction. Trophy of the five-day war were often treated
much more carelessly and brutally -- part of the captured tanks (from for sure are more
valuable the Buk missle the reuse of the tanks is always possible to find), for example, were
simply blew up.
The same fate befell a number of other trophies that Russian army was unable or unwilling to
take.so much for the version of "the Georgian origin".
Not to mention the fact that even if we assume the participation of Russian SAM in events
specifically mid-July 2014 on the territory of Donbass (it would be wrong to suggest), then the
target identification from the SAM, based on the world's best air defense of Russia, there were
no problems. And qualification of the SAM calculations in the armed forces was and remains
high.
Ukrainians did not shot of the equipment entrusted to them -- and even now did not have
shooting practice or have then below the norms. but we are talking about 2014 when the Ukrain
arny was in complet disarray.
But does not concern someone in the West? No they preder to to shout about the lack of
democracy in Russia. With no noticeable effects -- the pressure on Russia seriously
useless.
And it is understood that the Netherlands will going to demand the extradition of the
accused (knowing that the answer will be negative), so the prospects for "the court trial"
which can determine the truth are zero, although in absentia they can condemn anyone, even
Godzilla.
But it is possible "to urge Russia to help ensure that the accused appeared before the
court" as did the state Department, or "to welcome the fact of placing the suspects" as
delivered by a talking head of NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg
also nobody said it better about the JIT investigation then the Prime Minister of Malaysia
Mahathir Mohammad.
"We are very unhappy. From the outset this investigation was politicized and was carried out
in order to find ways to accuse Russia of illegal actions", -- said the Prime Minister. He
added that investigators are still examining the case materials, said that Russia did.
"We need proof of Russian guilt in the incident. But so far there is no proof, only rumors.
It's funny: someone you can't see, shoot, and you immediately declare that you know who was
shot."
The purpose of the "investigation" is to hang the blame of three hundred corpses
and a plane to some random individuals (transferring the guilt from a sick head to healthy as
Russian saying goes).
Good analysis, and thanks for including the drone-stalking cats photo. I only wish the
neighborhood "house cats" here would prey upon drones instead of using my tiny back yard and
its birdfeeders as their private hunting grounds.
One quibble, re: "But to blame Iran for it the U.S. will have to prove that its drone
did not enter Iranian air space."
This ought to be the case, certainly. But the bogus charges filed yesterday by the corrupt
and depraved Dutch authorities as part of the MH-17 downing cover-up is still another
reminder that authoritarian despots blithely and bumptiously run on fumes.
No one wishes more fervently than I that the multifarious Western Hegemony Big Lies kept
spinning in the air, as if juggled by a monstrous, malevolent Atlas, will ultimately be
punctured by laser-beams of truth. In the meantime, increasingly self-righteous repetitions
of the Big Lie will substitute for the required "proof".
"... Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own misdeeds. ..."
"... By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe Biden and many others. ..."
"... Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later revealed to be quite alive . ..."
"... According to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016 informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar facility . ..."
"... Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned. According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never reappeared . ..."
"... Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden, despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the elected President Viktor Yanukovych. ..."
"... All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence, as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US elections. ..."
"... Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John Solomon. ..."
"... Increasingly it is looking like the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election, and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN. ..."
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he
dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in
July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the
downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a
major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators
such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own
misdeeds.
During a dialogue with the Japanese Foreign Correspondent Club May 30, Mahathir challenged
the Dutch government to provide evidence for their claim that the civilian Malaysian FH17 jet
that crashed in Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made BUK missile fired from a Russian
regiment based in Kursk. The Malaysian Prime Minister told the Japanese media,
"They are accusing Russia, but where is the evidence? We know the missile that brought
down the plane is a Russian type missile, but it could also be made in Ukraine."
The blunt-spoken Mahathir added,
"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians; it could be by the rebels
in Ukraine, it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile ."
He went on to demand that the Malaysian government be allowed to inspect the black box of
the crashed plane, stating the obvious, that the plane belongs to Malaysia, with Malaysian
pilot and there were Malaysians passengers:
"We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reasons, Malaysia
was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened."
He went on to state,
"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we
see too much politics in it, and the idea was not to find out how this happened, but seems to
be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians ."
The Malaysian Air MH17 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down
over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Only in May 2018 the Dutch-led
Joint Investigation Team issued its report alleging that a BUK missile was used to shoot down
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, claiming that it originated from the 53rd Anti-aircraft Brigade
of the Russian Federation, stationed in Kursk near the Ukraine border.
The Dutch Joint
Investigation Team (JIT) declared that it "has come to the conclusion that the BUK-TELAR that
shot down MH17 came from 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia,"
according to top Dutch investigator Wilbert Paulissen. Paulissen added, "We are convinced that
our findings justify the
conclusions "
The Dutch-led group presented no concrete forensic proof, and Moscow has repeatedly denied
involvement in an act that would make no military or political sense for them. In 2018 the
Russian Defense Ministry provided evidence that the BUK missile which had exploded to destroy
the Malaysian passenger jet had been manufactured in a Russian plant in 1986, and then shipped
to the Ukraine. Its last recorded location was at a Ukrainian military base.
By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can
of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor
Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian
president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe
Biden and many others.
Open Questions
Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the
Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included
the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps
the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret
service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in
repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later
revealed to be quite
alive .
One of the central issues that the Dutch JIT group never addressed is why, at a time it was
a known warzone, and commercial international flights were told to avoid the airspace in
eastern Ukraine, the MH17 flight was reportedly ordered by Ukraine air traffic control
authorities in Dnepropetrovsk to change course and to fly directly into the war zone. According
to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air
Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016
informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform
Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern
Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine
coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar
facility .
Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic
controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned.
According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never
reappeared .
The Kolomoisky Factor
Notably, at the time of the MH17 downing, the Ukrainian governor of the Dnepropetrovsk
Oblast or region, was Igor Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky, who is listed as the third richest man in
Ukraine with an empire in oil, coal, metals and banking, was also reported to be directly
linked via offshore entities to control of Burisma, the shady Ukrainian gas company that named
the son of then-Vice President Joe Biden to its
board .
Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and
other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden,
despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden
lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in
charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the
elected President Viktor Yanukovych.
Notably, the Mahathir remarks have drawn attention anew to the mysterious circumstances
around the downing of Malaysian Air MH17 in 2014 and the potential role of Kolomoisky and
others, in that. The role of corrupt Ukraine officials backed by the Obama Administration, is
now under scrutiny.
Notably, the new President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, is widely reported to be a
protégé of Igor Kolomoisky. Zelensky became a national name as a comedian on a
Ukraine TV station owned by Kolomoisky, and the latter reportedly provided funds and personnel
to run the comedian's victorious May 2019 election campaign in which he defeated incumbent
Petro Poroshenko, a bitter foe of Kolomoisky. Following Zelensky's election victory, Kolomoisky
returned to Ukraine after exile in Switzerland following a bitter falling out
with Petr Poroshenko in 2015.
All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine
and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump
Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his
staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump
campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence,
as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US
elections.
Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a
confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John
Solomon. Solomon cites FBI documents including State Department emails he has seen where Kilimnik is described as a "sensitive" intelligence source for the US State Department. The
Mueller report left that embarrassing detail out for some reason. Kilimnik worked for Paul
Manafort who before the 2014 Ukraine coup had served as a lobbyist for Ukrainian elected
president Viktor Yanukovych and his Party of the Regions.
Their shadowy acts in Ukraine may soon come to haunt key figures in Ukraine such as
Kolomoisky, as well as people like Joe Biden and family. From the true authorship of the
downing of MH17, which Dutch and other investigators believe was linked to Kolomoisky actors,
to the Ukraine business dealings of Hunter Biden to the true facts of the Mueller "Russiagate"
probe, all could well prove to be a far more revealing investigation for the US Justice
Department than the obviously biased Mueller probe has been.
Increasingly it is looking like
the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election,
and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN.
*
Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your
email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.
F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in
politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics,
exclusively for the online magazine "New
Eastern Outlook" where this article was originally published.
He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization.
"... Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty " ..."
"... "Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border," ..."
"... "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools." ..."
"... had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat. ..."
"... "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia". ..."
"... "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces." ..."
"... "comprehensive" ..."
"... "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" ..."
Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014?
span ted by wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 11:19am
Well of course it was the Evil Russians! Didn't Russians also shoot Roger Rabbit? We'd been discussing this 2014 interview with
Tulsi Gabbard on my post ' analyses of the leaked 'Deal of the Century'
I/P peace plan '
that I'd found that day and posted in comments, mainly wanting to feature her anti-Palestinian Hasbara. As I remember it, this 'blame'
started the horrific sanctions on Russia.
Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists,
we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty "
TravelerXXX had bookmarked this Eric Zuesse exposé that I'd vaguely recalled and brought it in:
'MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven', December 31,
2018,
strategic-culture.org
It's about nine yards long with zillions of hyperlinks, so long I don't even guess I'd ever finished it, which makes it hard
to figure out what, if any, nuggets to feature, but he did link to this:
'MH-17: the untold story', 22
Oct,
2014, RT.com, including a 27-minute video documentary.
"Three months after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down over Ukraine, there are still no definitive answers about
what caused the tragedy. Civil conflict in the area prevented international experts from conducting a full and thorough investigation.
The wreckage should have been collected and scrupulously re-assembled to identify all the damage, but this standard investigative
procedure was never carried out. Until that's done, evidence can only be gleaned from pictures of the debris, the flight recorders
(black boxes) and eye-witnesses testimonies. This may be enough to help build a picture of what really happened to the aircraft,
whether a rocket fired from the ground or a military jet fired on the doomed plane."
I'd later added to that thread, including some photos of a beaming Netanyahu holding a map of the Golan Heights that Herr Trump
had signed with his approval (indicating the leaked plan just may be The Real Deal) when Up Jumped the Devil:
'Where
is the evidence?' Malaysian PM says attempts to pin MH17 downing on Russia lack proof', 30 May,
2019, RT.com
"Malaysia has accepted the Dutch report that a 'Russian-made' missile shot down its civilian airliner MH17 over eastern Ukraine
in 2014, but has yet to see evidence it was fired by Russia, said Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.
"They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ)
in Tokyo on Thursday.
"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians," the prime minister went on, according to the Malaysian state
news agency Bernama. "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile."
"Mahathir was skeptical that anyone involved with the Russian military could have launched the missile that struck the plane,
however, arguing that it would have been clear to professionals that the target was a civilian airliner.
"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he said.
The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT), whose report last year blamed Moscow for shooting down MH17, barred Russia from
participating in the investigation, but involved the government of Ukraine. Although Malaysia is also a member of JIT,Mahathir
revealed that his country's officials have been blocked from examining the plane's flight recorders.
"For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said. "We
don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it."
"This is not a neutral kind of examination," Mahathir added.
Rejecting the JIT accusations, Russia made public the evidence the Dutch-led researchers refused to look into, including the
serial number of the missile that allegedly struck MH17, showing that it was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986 and was in
the arsenal of the Ukrainian army at the time of the tragedy."
b of Moon of Alabama offered this whopping 55 minute press conference video with Malaysian PM Mahathir on Twitter
on May 31.
But aha! RT had later provided on the left sidebar:
May 24,
2018: 'No
Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims', RT.com
"The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit,
urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images.
"Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,"
the defense ministry said in statement.
The Russian military raised eyebrows over "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions
by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools."
The ministry pointed out that
the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special
services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group,
Bellingcat.
The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military
Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia.
Investigators claim the missile system involved came from "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia".
The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago.
The alarming part in the JIT probe is that "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the
testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however,
provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian
Armed Forces."
The Russian side said that it provided the international probe with "comprehensive"evidence, including field tests,
which "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" in the destruction of the plane
with 283 passengers and 15 crew members onboard."
This video that Eric Zuesse had up may be part of the referenced eye witness testimony.
Have brought up Gabbard's sticking with the lies and false narratives regarding Russia and Ukraine, clearly one of her blind
spots in her "antiwar" political campaign, that along with the massive and unrelenting war OF terror. That letter is a rather disgusting
display of imperialist obfuscation by the duopoly political parties, fully supporting the lies about Maduro and what's happening
in VS and in effect providing cover for future actions. You can't claim to be against military action while also lying about the
reasons. Of course they can, that's how they prep the public for imperial advances. up 4 users have voted.
i totally endorse zuesse's theory, but oh my, he'd brought in a lot of moving parts at the time. paranoid conspiracy theory
or 'coincidence theory', as some brilliant mofo used to ask. (i'l think of his name later.) the russian defense ministry's contentions
are in conflict with zuesse's (buk missiles v. another jet with missiles), but i sure as hell know that the dutch report
decision in advance was bullshit. i'd think that one would have to be willfully blind to accept it at face value, esp.
if any of them like gabbard were on the defense and intel committees at the time. same with madurro's venezuela, to pretend
that it's not mainly the egregious sanctions and blockades that are responsible for the estimated 40,000 citizens who've died
for lack of medicines and food. and now their CLAP food delivery system is under attack...again.
i get that the intel they're fed is rubbish, but they all have the duty to look further than what lies they're spoon fed.
CEPR has been incredibly valuable a resource for one, and it's pretty mainstream.
but he's right about one thing: yanukovitch was overthrown due to his refusal to sign the EU association memo, and when Imperialists
speak of how 'russia stole crimea', or refuse to see why the separatists in the donbass formed their own independent nation-states,
it's utter hypocrisy.
thanks for reading and commenting, big al.
oh, and do you know if tulsi's FP is still at her house.gov site? i looked at all her press releases that were dated after
that offensive letter, but i'd found nothing new.
@wendy davis I mean, there's the establishment/government narrative and there's the truth, that's about all I need to
know. It's like that saying "trust, but verify". I say fuck that, "don't trust, and verify that".
I don't know about Gabbard's FP, she's done some housecleaning and avoided certain things since becoming the CFR's choice for
2024. Again, I've already done enough research, what, for over 3 years now?, to see what she's all about, something I failed
to do in 2007/8 regarding Obama. Lo and behold, all the clues were there just waiting to be uncovered, but I wasn't in the same
place as now.
...by the Russians, who were not allowed to participate in the Dutch investigation. The information and data was presented
to the Dutch and to the Western media in September 2018. Everything one could hope to see in physical evidence is here. There
is additional evidence not in this article that adds to the details and forensics presented here.
This information was not published in the West or in the Vassal State of Netherlands. The US possesses satellite photos of
the incident. But it has classified those photos and refuses to release them.
As for means, motive and opportunity:
• MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, not over Russia.
• It was shot down with a missile owned by Ukraine, not by Russia.
• It had propaganda value for Ukraine and its CIA masters, none for
• The missile was fired from territory controlled by the neo nazi Kiev regime.
But the best evidence of what took place, as far as I'm concerned, is right here:
Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling in the rebel-held part of
the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15 crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia
was blamed by Western media in the first days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.
and thank you. your memory is prodigious, and having the 2018 RT news is srsly helpful, as is your M,M, & O formula. blame
first, then fail to allow russia (and malaysia) to be able to run investigations. good to know as well that the malaysian minister
knew of the serial numbers and that ukraine owned the missiles.
eric zuesse had said that even dutch journalists were raising havoc with the JIT back in the day. but just think what this
false blame resulting in mega-sanctions began, then onto the skripals, russia-gate in many guises, and tra la la.
mr. wd laughed this mornin' and said he wishes he had a choice to vote for sergei lavrov for prez; i second that!
dunno if the EU still wants a compact with ukraine, but NATO sure wants the neo-nazi nation as a member. ping: if i have
the energy and time, i'll try to find in zuesse's tome admissions by snipers in 2014, as well.
Must admit I didn't hunt down her Ukraine position, but my personal take is Obummer and the CIA set out to foment problems
and managed to get a fascists regime elected in order to oppose Russia. The new Ukrainian president may take things in a more
pro-Russia direction?
site, at her election site. well, check out Russia , for now. and i do thank you; i was lookin' in all the wrong places.
; )i'll check out more soon as i have time, but zounds: russia: crimea, the nation's interference in our election, wooof. of
course jill stein raised boatloads of bucks for recounts in three states on the basis of russian interference, later 'foreign
interference' against the wishes of the green party board and her own running mate, so...there's that, but it was just a dodge
against trump winning, not hillary. sorry, tulsi.
for being in such a hurry i hadn't even registered your speculation about zelenskiy, but nah, he wants crimea and the donbass
self-declared republics that Putin stole from him...back. he's being lauded and applauded for 'standing up to KGB Putin'. ;
)
and the IMF's bailin' em out again so they have enough to pay their NATO dues and join the EU. (just saw that tryin' to remember
how to sorta spell the comic's name.)
maybe it was passengers', was returned to Malaysia ... but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.
At the time an OSCE member was the first to arrive at the crash site. Some 20 minutes after the downing. The photos taken
by him, or so it was attributed, showed round holes (not shrapnel) shot in the pilot area. Sorry I don't have any links handy
on either of these, but I'm pretty sure this is correct.
as i understand it, the hole size was not in contention. but weather it had been the pilot or a passenger: '...but in a sealed
coffin, that even family members were refused to open.'
is that perhaps a malaysian custom? is the truth out there somewhere?
eric zuesse remind us, the holes in the cockpit were likely from machine guns on the ukrainian fighter jet sent to make sure
the ukie buk missiles had (omg) killed the plane, which if i'm getting it right (a big IF) was changing direction as it went
down. my apologies for not getting all the moving parts and claims right on this thread.
but the 21st century wire shows charts and evidence that the flight crew was ordered to change course by the air traffic
control tower (as per the later censored bbc plus recordings).
...was involved in the downing of MH17, which was the opinion of many aviation experts and others, who found bullet holes
in the cockpit, wings, and fuselage. This in addition to Buk damage.
Recordings were captured by multiple sources of a frightened and stressed Ukrainian pilot, who radioed, "I shot the wrong
plane!" He sounded as if he was commanded to shoot down a military target plane and was misled into shooting a passenger jet.
That pilot, named Voloshyn, later committed suicide.
The typical recollection of the incident is:
A fighter was also sent up to 'make sure' the target plane was shot down. If I remember rightly, the plane was hit, but
was still flying and it began to turn back. If the plane story (which I tend to believe) is true, it's at that point that
the fighter jet opened fire on the cockpit and wings.
That would also account for Buk damage to the Boeing, as well as fighter machine gun damage to the cockpit.
You can find many references to this incident along with transcripts of the conversation between the fighter pilot and the
ground base.
video confessions from the snipers at maidan (i assume ukrainians firing on protestors in front of the trades union building
that was eventually...burned to the ground.
but this?
"For instance, Moscow said a theory was never tested that the airliner could have been downed by a fighter jet spotted
by Russian radar stations near flight MH17. The theory was later proven false by the discovery of debris from the Buk rocket.
Though Russia doesn't possess those black boxes ( which, by chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the
Malaysian Government's representative, and yet that Government handed them to Netherland's Government instead of to Russia's
-- apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals,
evidence that's conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, regardless
whether a Buk was involved or not."
one of his links went to ' MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag '
July 25, 2014 , 21stcenturywire.com
"As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new
course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-known dangerous area by now – one that's hosted a number of downed military
craft over the previous 3 weeks. Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine,
confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly
further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto.
Data on all airline flight records can be found here. The BBC reported on July 17th: " Ukraine's SBU security service
has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner,
a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
a great (and lengthy) collaborative investigation by 21st century wire. thanks, obomba, thanks, tulsi, thanks Pierre and
vickie nuland. and even the new guy can't control his neo-nazis. but then again, at least yulia tymoshenko didn't win.
but NATO will add them to the roster soon, which is one of the reasons that the atlantic council had recommended him: to
root out poroshenko's oligarchs' corruption.
but i almost wish i hadn't it's sooooo long and full of twists and turns, news reports, videos, but in general the theme
is that mikhail saakashvilli hired them, then stiffed them.
' The "Snipers' Massacre" in Kiev -- Another False Flag? ',
January
13, 2015 , granvillepost.com, eric zuesse
you may remember him best john Mccains buddy: 'today we are all georgians'? like ahmed chalabi, he's the proverbial bad penny
who keeps returning in whatever guise needed (after expulsions), and the
big news this week is that zelenskiy's reinstated his ukrainian
citizenship after promising to give up his former ambitions and work with the new prez.
"... In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems "to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" . ..."
"... The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile," he said. ..."
"... Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said . ..."
"... "We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians." ..."
"... Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down. ..."
"... Tell Malaysia they cannot access the black-box on their plane that was shot down, and they will tell you where to put your authoritative report. ..."
In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the
methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative
report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over
war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems
"to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" .
The Malaysian leader told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ)
in Tokyo on Thursday "They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir said
his country accepted that a "Russian-made missile" shot down its civilian airliner, killing all
283 passengers and 15 crew members on board, but that "You need strong evidence to show it was
fired by the Russians."
He ultimately questioned the objectivity of the investigators in what major regional media
described as a "jaw dropping speech" .
Australia's prime state run news service
ABC News noted the Malaysian PM's speech has sent shock waves through the region as it
questioned everything Australia's own leaders have said. "From the very beginning we see too
much politics in it," Mahathir said in reference to the official Dutch-led investigation.
A total of 38 Australians were killed in the Boeing-777 shoot down and crash, and the
majority were Dutch nationals. The ABC report summarized of the "bombshell"
charges leveled by PM Mahathir :
"Based on these findings, the only conclusion we can reasonably now draw is that Russia
was directly involved in the downing of MH17," Australia's then-prime minister and foreign
minister Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop said in a joint statement.
"The Russian Federation must be held to account for its conduct in the downing of MH17
over eastern Ukraine, which resulted in the tragic deaths of 298 passengers and crew,
including 38 people who called Australia home."
But in a bombshell speech to the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (JFCC) on Thursday,
Dr Mahathir was having none of it, accusing those who blamed Russia of scapegoating the
nation for "political" reasons .
The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as
being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government
because they too have the same missile," he said.
Interestingly, this has been Russia's position all along, which has already led some
international media sources to suggest of
the deeply contrarian Friday speech , "Dr Mahathir is known to enjoy a good conspiracy
theory."
Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black
box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason,
Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened,"
he said .
"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we
see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be
concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians."
The Malaysian PM's headline grabbing comments were made in English in response to a
reporter's question:
He concluded that, "This is not a neutral kind of examination" -- again questioning the
basis on which suspicions of pro-Kiev forces appeared to have been superficially ruled out from
the start.
"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he
added, according to
Australia's ABC .
Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile
that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of
the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down.
The consensus of the "international community" is that the Russians are responsible.
Anything outside the consensus view is not permissible. That's how democracy works. And also
how science works.
I would trust the Dutch investigators about as much as I trust the OPCW with regard to
chemical weapons use.
Without Russia, ASSAD would be long gone and IRAN would have been bombed to oblivion, and
Greater Israhell would have been fulfilled and ruling over the MidEast.
Deep State had its hands all over that downed Aircraft, he who records History, creates
History, for proof compare schoolbooks from any different generations !
It shows everyone just how fucked up the world has gotten when a foreign leader has the
balls to speak some truth in public and what he said is instantly labeled "deeply
contrarian".
Keep this in mind when you hear anything negative about Russia coming out of the UK or out
of one of her spawn like Australia . . . Great Britain has had a total hard-on for Russia
going back over 200 years and to this day will do anything in their power to **** Russia over
any chance they get. It's primarily because of the actions of the UK that there's such an
anti-Russian push in the US right now.
The shoot down of MH17 was just another attempt to stick it to the Russians and there's
British finger prints all over that incident (for example, who still has the black boxes from
that flight and won't let the Russians or anyone else see them, hmm?).
I said it back then (er helped say it) - listen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWlAARb0fN4
. Ukrainian Su-25's strafed the pilots with bullets - it was no BUK missile
Another false flag from the evil cabal of blackhatted ZioNazi scum.The world needs to be
rid of this cancer...and to think that some of these Pentagram monsters are grandparents.
The litany of 'highly likely' accusations were so pervasive they were blacking out the sun
like a swarm of locusts. It's my hope that this is changing. More lies about Syria,
Venuzuala, Iran etc. told to save the liars with new war worries. Would be nice to see
normalcy come to the US, but maybe it must come completely apart first, I hope not. But the
empire is not looking too good lately.
Props to the Malay guy. Fragments of the missile used in the attack were found, and the
serial # recovered. The missile was made in Russia in the 80s, and shipped to Ukraine at that
time. There is an entire hand written inventory(it can be seen at Veteranstoday.com ) from date of manufacture up to it's
delivery to a missile battery in Ukraine. It remained there in the Ukraine until pieces of it
were recovered at the crash site. Check it out.
Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign
Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the
crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of
being biased and not transparent. Video at 40:56.
Just a few excerpts:
We should be involved in examining the black box. We may not have the expertise, but we can
buy expertise. But for some reason or other Malaysia was not allowed in to check on the
black box to see what happened.
<...>
They are accusing Russians of firing the missile but what is the evidence? We need
strong evidence to show that it was fired by the Russians, but it could have been the
rebels in Ukraine, it could even be the Ukrainian government because they too have the same
missile.
<...>
We don't know why we are excluded from the examination, but from the very beginning we
see too much politics in it. The idea was not to find out how this happened and all
that, but they seemed to be concentrated on trying to pin it on Russia . This is not a
neutral kind of examination.
<...>
Here we have parties who have some political interest in the matter and they
examine.
<...>
People from Russia - they are military people. Military people would know that it is a
passenger plane. <...> I don't think [that] discipline, very highly discipline party
would be responsible for launching the missile.
By the way, a year ago Malaysian Minister of Transport Anthony Loke
spoke about this. The JIT obviously found this "not very important". Who would doubt. The
task of covering up the Ukrainian regime that shot down the plane is still relevant. Just
wondering how many more years they will play this farce with an "investigation".
Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign
Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the
crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of
being biased and not transparent.
------------------------
"... A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to the Boeing's left side, and not a single element would have hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, said the Almaz-Antey experts. ..."
Dutch investigators have published a much-awaited final report into the causes of the MH17 plane crash in eastern Ukraine, while
Russian BUK producer Almaz-Antey has revealed the results of its experiments.
Here are eight crucial points from both reports.
Follow Live Updates
The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has been leading
the investigation
into the causes of the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. The crash killed nearly 300 passengers and crew members on
July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine. The DBS investigation is aimed at providing technical details about the crash, while another probe
carried out by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is expected to determine who was responsible for the incident by the end of this
year.
See the
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Almaz-Antey conducted research which included two experiments simulating
explosions, with the second one using a decommissioned Ilyushin Il‐86 aircraft, similar to a Boeing 777 in its aerodynamic, technical
and physical attributes, as well as its fuselage design. The company's detailed technical presentation of the findings on Tuesday
lasted for about three hours. Here are the three key conclusions they drew: 1.BUK 9М38 hit the plane The plane was hit by
an earlier generation of the 9M38 Buk missile complete with warhead 9N314 ("without I-beams"), Almaz-Antey said in its presentation
on Tuesday. According to the arms producer, the particles which hit the plane were cube-shaped, not bow-shaped. The last missile
of this type was produced in the Soviet Union in 1986, and its life span is 25 years including all prolongations. All missiles of
this type were decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011, it said.
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Learn More 2. Missile
exploded on left side "The sub-munitions primarily damaged the left side of the MH17 Boeing, primarily its cockpit, left wing,
left engine, and the left side of the tail, " the company said.
3. Missile fired from Kiev-controlled area? Based on the angle of the damage to MH17, the BUK producer established that the
most probable location of the missile launch was the area to the south of the village of Zaroshchenskoe in the Donetsk region in
eastern Ukraine. The arms producer refuted earlier claims that the missile had been launched from Snezhnoy, controlled by rebel forces
and located near Torez – the MH17 crash site.
A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to the Boeing's left side, and not a single element would have
hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, said the Almaz-Antey experts.
The Dutch Safety Board said on Tuesday that it would study
the results of the two experiments presented by BUK manufacturer Almaz-Antey, adding that the MH17 investigation will not be
completed in 2015. LI
The intensity and sophistication of propaganda campaign, as well as the fact that it was started immediately raised really
strong suspicions about possible western involvement. But if there is a Western trace then the missile should probably be fired for
aircraft not from the ground.
The MH17 case shocked the world as it happened and caused an escalation of
the war in Ukraine. Although many accusations have been leveled over responsibility for the
tragedy, the panel investigating the incident continues to search for the identities of the
perpetrators. However, all focus has centered around the culprits being either Ukrainian or
Russian, both of whom did not have incentive to further aggravate the Ukrainian conflict.
An examination of the facts, the connections of various state and non-state actors pushing
disinformation about MH17 along with knowledge about historical intelligence playbooks and foreign
mercenary involvement in Ukraine would in fact suggest that the party responsible for shooting the
aircraft down may have been a team with ties to transatlantic American groups allied with certain
Western European interests.
I. Investigation Results
In 2014, the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) published its
initial findings
as part of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seeking to determine who was at
fault for the attack on MH17. These findings established that a BUK 9M38-series missile was fired
at MH17 and that the missile was shot from somewhere inside east Ukraine in an area where control
was contested by government and rebel forces. At the same time, BUK missile producer Almaz-Antey
gave a
press conference
where they stated that based on the shape of the shrapnel particles which hit
MH17, the missile prototype was last produced by the Soviet Union in 1986. Since the missiles have
a life span of 25 years, they were decommissioned by the Russian Army in 2011.
In 2016,
Stratfor
released analysis of satellite imagery from DigitalGlobe that they claimed showed the missile
launcher which fired the BUK at MH17. As
Disobedient
Media
has previously reported, DigitalGlobe is an American vendor of satellite imagery founded
by a scientist who worked on the US military's
Star
Wars
ICBM defense program under President Ronald Reagan. DigitalGlobe began its existence in
Oakland, CA and was seeded with money from Silicon Valley sources and corporations in North
America, Europe and Japan.
Headquartered
in
Westminster CO, DigitalGlobe works extensively with
defense
and intelligence programs
. In 2016, it was
revealed
that
DigitalGlobe was working with CIA chipmaker NVIDIA and
Amazon
Web Services
to create an AI-run satellite surveillance network known as
Spacenet
.
Their photos have repeatedly been used in propaganda attempts to undermine negotiations between
North Korea and the United States.
In May 2018, the JIT gave an
update
on their
investigation where they "presumed" that the BUK missile which was used against MH17 came from the
Russian 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile brigade. This presumption appears to be a rehash of claims made
by "independent" investigative organization
Bellingcat
in
2014. Nonetheless, investigators left open the possibility that the missile had been
fired by another party
.
In September 2018, the Russian military gave a
press conference
where they said the missile that shot down MH17 came from a Ukrainian army arsenal. This belief was
based on a study of military archives after the JIT had made the serial number of the missile
public. The JIT
responded
that they would need Russia to submit information supporting their claims, despite
the fact that Dutch investigators could have also reached out to Ukrainian authorities in an
attempt to verify whether or not the serial number was in fact from a missile part transferred
during the Soviet era.
II. Nation-State Narrative Pushing
In the aftermath of the JIT's 2018 update,
the governments of the Netherlands and Australia issued a
statement
blaming
Russia for the incident. They were
supported
by
Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, who echoed a previous
British
intelligence report
claiming without evidence that they also knew the Russian military
"supplied and subsequently recovered" the missile launcher. This manner of nation-state propaganda
has pervaded the investigation process since MH17 went down in 2014 and does not match the
assertions of the JIT, who have consistently left open the possibility that a party other than
Russia was responsible.
It is little surprise to see the Netherlands working in lockstep with the United Kingdom and
Australia, who are both members of the
UKUSA
Agreement
popularly known as Five Eyes (FVEY). The UK in particular has been shown to have been
involved with operations alongside the Netherlands. Both the British and Dutch governments have
been
tied to Cheollima Civil Defense
, who sought a coup in North Korea before they were targeted by
American law
enforcement
.
Integrity
Initiative
, an organization supported financially by UK intelligence and the Foreign Office,
also maintained a
Netherlands
cluster
. Members of this cluster include
Yevhen Fedchenko
,
the Ukrainian co-founder and chief editor of stopfake.org and multiple members of
The Hague Centre for Strategic Studies
(HCSS), an "independent" think tank that works with the
Dutch Ministries of Security and Justice, Foreign Affairs and Defense as well as NATO. British
intelligence assets have also been exposed among the staff of the
Voice of Europe
, a right wing publication located in the Netherlands.
Interestingly,
Malaysia
, whose aircraft was shot down, has said that there is no conclusive evidence showing
that Russia was responsible for downing MH17. The
US State Department
additionally declined to issue a statement they had prepared in 2018 criticizing Russia's alleged
role in the event.
III. Intent
In criminal law, establishing intent to commit the crime in question is often an essential
element to convicting a guilty party . In the case of MH17, neither Russia or Ukraine had an
incentive to shoot down the airliner. The event dashed any immediate hopes of a "
Novorussia
"
state or an
early end
to the Ukrainian war. It similarly created a disadvantage to Ukraine, who has lost
thousands
of their
own citizens in the conflict due to its failure to conclude quickly. Neither country has a good
cause to continue fighting for as long as they have. The MH17 tragedy ensured that both countries
would remain mired in a struggle.
Both parties
mutually denied
involvement in the attack. Russia's kneejerk reaction was to incorrectly claim
a
Ukrainian jet
was
responsible, likely because of
accusations
that
air-to-air missiles had brought down Ukrainian military aircraft in recent days. The Russian
information warfare strategy did not take into account that
Western media
and certain
Ukrainian officials
were already blaming a BUK launcher as the cause for the attack. This kind
of confusion and failure to prepare narratives is a sign that Russian officials did not anticipate
the incident beforehand.
Europeans and American factions who support initiatives such as the European Union and NATO do
have such a cause. Confrontation between Ukraine and Russia serves not only as a distraction to
Russia, but
pushes
Ukraine into the arms of Western interests
.
IV. British Intelligence Propaganda Efforts
The pervasive involvement of British intelligence propaganda operations surrounding the MH17
incident further indicates that European and allied American groups are using the incident to stoke
the Ukrainian conflict. British website
Bellingcat
was founded after the downing of MH17 and immediately began to focus on providing
"evidence" they hoped would be of value to investigators. It would appear that their efforts have
been met with success after the JIT appeared to lend credence to some of their claims that the BUK
missile used against MH17 came from the Russian military.
Leaks from 2018 have established, however, that Bellingcat is a propaganda operation with ties
to organizations funded by British intelligence.
Documents
from the Integrity Initiative list both Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council, a think
tank known for engaging in
pay-to-play behavior
with foreign donors, as "partner organizations."
Bellingcat author
Dan Kaszeta
, who was involved with narrative formation surrounding the
Skripal assassination
attempt
, was forced to issue an
unconvincing denial
that he worked for British intelligence after it emerged that he also wrote for Integrity
Initiative. Integrity Initiative's now-censored
website
itself
featured a page dedicated to combatting what they branded as "disinformation" surrounding MH17.
In addition to spreading propaganda in Europe, Bellingcat also runs operations targeting other
locations as well. Canada-based Venezuelan anti-government blog
In
Venezuela
is run by a Bellingcat member. The organization has also promoted
Bana Alabed
, a
Syrian girl who supposedly worked with her English-speaking mother in Aleppo to send out perfectly
worded tweets requesting NATO intervention in Syria during the siege of the city by government
forces.
The pervasive involvement of the Integrity Initiative-connected Bellingcat in pushing
pro-British propaganda into the MH17 investigation process provides a strong indication that
official narratives about the tragedy are inaccurate.
V. Clues To Identity Of Perpetrators
If neither Ukrainian or Russian forces were responsible for the downing of MH17, who else could
be?
Creating false attribution during military attacks is a very old tactic. The
Gleiwitz incident
at the start of Work War Two and the
Gulf of Tonkin
are
two historical examples of occasions where false attribution occurred for political purposes. In
the 1960's, the United States looked seriously at staging incidents of harassment or outright
attacks against civilian airliners as part of
Operation Northwoods
.
The attacks would be falsely attributed to the Cuban government by using procured MiG fighters or
creating replicas that would fool observers.
Internal documents
from the CIA show a number of configurations that would withstand varying
degrees of scrutiny were being considered.
Interestingly, the JIT used a
US-made missile
in tests meant to model the impact to MH17. BUK producer Almaz-Antey claimed
that this meant the missile differed from their version in crucial features such as flight path.
There is also evidence that American mercenaries were on the ground in parts of eastern Ukraine
that were held by rebel forces as fighting intensified in the months leading up to the MH17 crash.
In March 2014,
Bild am
Sonntag
cited German government sources who claimed that over 400 American mercenaries working
for Academi affiliate
Greystone
were operating in Ukraine. The article was sparked by
videos
which had
recently emerged online showing armed men said to be Americans on the streets on Donetsk, Ukraine.
Academi issued a
statement
denying that any of their direct employees were in Ukraine but did not comment on the
nature of their relationship to Greystone.
On May 4, 2014,
Bild
am Sonntag
claimed that CIA and FBI agents were in Kiev to "advise" the Ukrainian government,
citing unnamed German security sources. The next day,
The
Independent
noted that locals in east Ukraine believed British or US forces might be active in
the region after discovering items such as a British military jacket along with American rations
and ammunition casings.
The evidence that Western mercenaries were present in Ukraine during the months leading up to
the downing of MH17 should not be discounted and merits serious examination by investigators.
Russian mercenaries
have created headaches for their home nation in locations such as Syria due
to potentially taking contracts for private clients while deployed in conflict zones. The
involvement of Americans in Ukraine similarly raises questions about whether or not their services
could have been exploited to aggravate an already contentious conflict that did not benefit either
Ukraine or Russia.
Given the heavy involvement of British intelligence in narrative formation surrounding MH17 and
clear attempts to induce the JIT to adopt the research of intelligence-connected investigative
groups one must ask if the international panel investigating the case is missing the bigger picture
by focusing on Ukraine and Russia alone. The evidence in fact points to a far different reality
than the one presented by the international media. Will the JIT seek true justice? Or will they
give the world easy and expected answers to their questions about MH17?
Tags
Politics
The fact that Glenn Greenwald proved to be a despicable pressitute cast a long shadow of
Snowden and Assange.
Notable quotes:
"... Not mentioned by any of the major news media is the fact that Bellingcat is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (sic), renowned for its interference in foreign elections, funding terrorists and overthrowing governments the US doesn't approve of. ..."
A quick comment about the two Russian alleged assassins, exposed, we are told by the
'investigative' Website, Bellingcat. Not mentioned by any of the major news media is the fact
that Bellingcat is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (sic), renowned for its
interference in foreign elections, funding terrorists and overthrowing governments the US
doesn't approve of.
Media Lens picked up on this awhile back in reference to another Western financed
outfit, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR), funded by the UK Foreign Office. I've
also expanded this by quoting from Media Lens' other article that deals with Western-funded
disinfo, ' Douma: Part 1
– Deception In Plain Sight':
Liberal corporate journalists and politicians have been impressed by the fact that SOHR
and White Helmets claims have been supported by ostensibly forensic analysis supplied by the
Bellingcat website, which publishes 'citizen journalist' investigations. As we noted
in a recent alert, Bellingcat is funded by the National
Endowment for Democracy (NED), which is funded by the US government and is 'a notorious
vehicle for US soft power'. – '
The Syrian Observatory – Funded By The Foreign Office ', Media Lens, June 4
2018
It's worth quoting more of the Media Lens article as it exposes the nature of Western
so-called lefties and their attachment to Western (funded) propaganda outfits:
In the New Statesman, Paul Mason
offered a typically nonsensical argument, linking to the anti-Assad website,
Bellingcat:
'Despite the availability of public sources showing it is likely that a regime Mi-8
helicopter dropped a gas container onto a specific building, there are well-meaning people
prepared to share the opinion that this was a "false flag", staged by jihadis, to pull the
West into the war. The fact that so many people are prepared to clutch at false flag theories
is, for Western democracies, a sign of how effective Vladimir Putin's global strategy has
been.'
Thus, echoing Freedland's reference to 'denialists and conspiracists', sceptics can only
be idiot victims of Putin's propaganda. US media analyst Adam Johnson of FAIR accurately
described Mason's piece as a 'mess', adding :
'I love this thing where nominal leftists run the propaganda ball for bombing a country 99
yards then stop at the one yard and insist they don't support scoring goals, that they in
fact oppose war.'
Surprisingly, the Bellingcat website, which publishes the findings of 'citizen journalist'
investigations, appears to be taken seriously by some very high-profile progressives.
In the Independent, Green Party leader Caroline Lucas also
mentioned the Syrian army 'Mi-8' helicopters. Why? Because she had read the same
Bellingcat blog as Mason, to which she linked:
'From the evidence we've seen so far it appears that the latest chemical attack was likely
by Mi-8 helicopters, probably from the forces of Syria's murderous President Assad.'
On Democracy Now!, journalist Glenn Greenwald said of
Douma:
'I think that it's -- the evidence is quite overwhelming that the perpetrators of this
chemical weapons attack, as well as previous ones, is the Assad government '
This was an astonishing comment. After receiving fierce challenges (not from us),
Greenwald partially retracted, tweeting :
'It's live TV. Something [sic – sometimes] you say things less than ideally. I think
the most likely perpetrator of this attack is Syrian Govt.'
We wrote to Greenwald asking what had persuaded him of Assad's 'likely' responsibility for
Douma. (Twitter, April 10, direct message)
The first piece of evidence he sent us (April 12) was the Bellingcat blog mentioning
Syrian government helicopters cited by Mason and Lucas. Greenwald also sent us a
report from Reuters, as well as a
piece from 2017, obviously prior to the alleged Douma event.
This was thin evidence indeed for the claim made. In our discussion with him, Greenwald
then completely retracted his claim (Twitter, April 12, direct message) that there was
evidence of Syrian government involvement in the alleged attack. [My emph. WB] – '
Douma: Part
1 – Deception In Plain Sight'
"dropped from up high" – gosh, the technical terminology scientists use makes their
reports difficult to follow. Naturally only Assad possessed the capability to drop something
from up high, so it must have been him.
I also note the report says some guy who was not from the hospital ran in shouting
"Chemical! Chemical!", whereupon others started grabbing people and washing them, and that
the alleged victims did not present as victims of a chemical attack.
But I daresay the press will conclude this is irrefutable proof that a chemical attack
occurred in Douma and that Assad – backed by the Russians – was responsible.
Here's another example of the untrustworthiness of news-media and of other allegedly
nonfiction presentations, even in many 'scientific' journals -- but this one will be an example
from what has become overwhelmingly the world's leading encyclopedia: Wikipedia.
The CIA-
edited and - written
Wikipedia writes about the anti-CIA Michel
Chossudovsky , by saying against his organization, the Centre for Research on
Globalization, that it "promotes a variety of conspiracy theories and
falsehoods.[7][19][8][20][21][22][23]." However (just to take one example there), the 22nd
footnote "[22]" brings the reader to
a lying 11 September 2013 article in the neoconservative The New Republic . This TNR
article says against the progressive organization Veteran
Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) that "The sources for VIPS' most sensational
claims, it turns out, are Canadian eccentric Michel Chossudovsky's conspiracy site Global
Research and far-right shock-jock Alex Jones's Infowars."
Wikipedia's linking to that lying TNR article is part of Wikipedia's 'proof' that both of
those 'conspiracy' sites (the leftist Chossudovsky's and the rightist Jones's) are false (in
other words: Wikipedia there is blatantly deceiving its readers, and is even assuming they're
stupid enough to believe such a ridiculous thing as that and wouldn't even bother to check
out Wikipedia's sources to find whether Wikipedia is the liar there, and not Chosudovsky's
site that is the liar).
It's also assuming that the Obama regime was truthful when saying that Bashar al-Assad was
behind the 21 August 2013 sarin gas attack in Ghouta Syria . However, that second assumption
is likewise demonstrably false. The TNR's article and its allegation against Assad regarding
Ghouta were, in fact, disproven, on 14 January
2014 , when leading US weapons-scientists Theodore Postol and Richard Lloyd studied
closely all the evidence on that event and the US Government's evidence that Assad had been
associated with causing it, and the Lloyd-Postol finding was unequivocal that "the US
Government's Interpretation of the Technical Intelligence It Gathered Prior to and After the
August 21 Attack CANNOT POSSIBLY BE CORRECT."
Furthermore, Obama actually knew that he was falsifying. Seymour Hersh's 17 April 2014
article in the London Review of Books , proved this. Obama was lying. Neither
Lloyd-Postol nor Hersh is even referred to in today's Wikipedia's article . It still trusts Obama's and TNR's
proven lie that Assad (instead of Obama's 'Syrian rebels' -- a.k.a.: jihadists
) had done that sarin attack. Wikipedia smears Chossudovsky with that proven lie, by simply
reasserting the lie, and by assuming that Chossudovsky's site is less trustworthy than
Wikipedia (which is yet another lie). But that's merely one of many lies that are in the
Wikipedia article against Chossudovsky. No intelligent reader trusts Wikipedia -- or any
source (except sources that the reader has repeatedly confirmed to be true and never to have
asserted falsehoods -- unlike Wikipedia, which is full of distortions, cover-ups, and
lies).
Intelligent skeptics dig down like this (which can be done only online, which is why print
and broadcast 'news' is even less trustworthy than online news), and routinely find that
there's a very selective use of 'evidence' that's behind most claims, and that the reality is
that the 'news' is often false, and, worse than that, the 'news' is usually false for a purpose
or purposes -- that the 'news' is often fraudulent, that it is propaganda , PR, often even of
the lying sort, instead of being honest and carefully verified research and reporting, such as
it claims to be.
Usually, it's false because the intention is to deceive, not because Wikipedia (or whatever
other news-and-public-affairs medium one happens to be considering) merely goofed. As was noted
here, Wikipedia is
edited , and even written , by
the
CIA . (Remember what a "slam-dunk" about "Saddam's WMD"
they delivered to the George W. Bush regime in 2002?) Only sources that are approved by the CIA
are linked to there . Some of the sources are true, but many are not. The article on
Chossudovsky was done for the CIA by an asset of the CIA, about a critic of the CIA. The CIA
represents America's billionaires, and Chossudovsky doesn't.
Extremely wealthy people buy, advertise their corporations in, and/or donate to,
public-affairs media, not in order to profit from them as owners of them, so much as in order
to influence public affairs by means of them. This is one of the ways in which to grab hold not
only of the government, but even of the people who vote for the government and who also buy
those billionaires' corporations' products and services.
Trust should never be given; it should only be earned. Regarding what is public, trust is
earned only rarely -- and is never earned when that trust is in the major 'news'-media (all of
which are owned and controlled by billionaires and centi-millionaires who actually have
interests in many corporations, including some they don't control but only serve or else invest
in). The major 'news'-media don't always lie, but they often lie - especially about foreign
affairs, which are the main focus and concern of international corporations.
For example: where do you ever see, in the major 'news'-media in The West, such high quality
news-reporting as
this, at the obscure news-site 21st Century Wire, from the great investigative journalist
Vanessa Beeley ? What even comes close to such honesty, at CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, MSNBC, CNN,
BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, The Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, The
Nation, Mother Jones, The Public Interest, National Review, Rolling Stone , Truthout, Truthdig,
Alternet, Salon, etc.? Obviously, nothing, ever.
So: that's why one should always distrust the news. The system here is designed for deceit
of the public.
Here are other recent articles from me, describing other instances of this phenomenon, the
routine deceiving of the public:
Russia's response provided, in excruciating detail, not only clear disproofs of the Netherlands-headed
investigation's conclusions of Russian guilt, but also provided the still-unrefuted proofs of Ukraine's
actual and incontestable guilt, in this mass-murder.
the Government of Ukraine was, on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which
would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team. Dutch government refuses to reveal 'secret deal' into
MH17 crash probe .. the Holland's science-publishers Elsevier had filed for this information under that
country's Freedom of Information Act, and the [Dutch] Government simply refused to comply with that
law.
the Netherlands Government had partially funded the coup that in February 2014 overturned Ukraine's
Government and installed the new regime, which regime is allied with the United States Government and
actually perpetrated the MH17 shoot-down.
The US regime masterminded this mass-murder in order to win the EU's support for sanctions against
Russia, and the EU knowingly complied The MH17 victims were merely "collateral damages" in the US
regime's secret decades-long and ongoing anti-Russia war.
The BBC had previously posted to their website on 23 July 2014, just six days after the event itself,
a news report in Russian via their Russian service (fortunately archived by Global Research), about the
downing, but they quickly removed it without explanation.
It was already known that NATO and Europhiles from bruSSel has created and executed this plan to
start a casus belli against Russia, all the steps that the European Neo-cons and Azkenazi's are making
from: the association agreement with Ukrianians, the MarraKECH agreement with all the lies and
spinning from Frans Timmermans, Dutch PM Mark Rutte and their Soros sponsord media: Dutch princess
Mabel Bruinsma or better known Mabel van Oranje is working for Soros as Royal family member
MH17, not impossible for me indeed that Rutte knew that the plane would be shot down. The day affter
the disaster Dutch objections against sanctions to Russia were over, though at that moment knowledge of
what had happened was nil.
The possibility of an accident, caused by Ukraine, cannot be ruled out, however.
Ukrainian bombers seem to have used overflying passenger planes as shield against SAM missiles.
I suspect Israel of recently having used the same trick near Damascus, Israeli jets hiding behind
commercial planes, possibly with the hope that Syria would shoot down one or two paassenger planes.
*But also here nothing new.
British admiralty signals to the Lusitania are still secret, as far as I know.
From what is known I get the impression that the British wanted the Lusitania torpedoed.
Finally, a clear and convincing - and unrefuted - case can now be presented to the public, as to precisely whom the guilty party
was, that downed the MH17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on 17 July 2014, and why it was done.
The complete case, which
will be fully documented here, displays unequivocally who needed the MH17 murders (of
298
persons
) to be perpetrated. This mass-murder was done for one leader's very pressing obsession. For him, it simply had to be
done, and done at that precise time.
The full MH17 case will be presented here, to be judged by the public, because no court of law which possesses the power to bring
this (or even any) case on the MH17 murders, is willing to do so, and because the evidence in this 17 July 2014 case has become
overwhelming, and is unrefuted.
This
evidence is accepted by both sides
. But it still remains effectively hidden from the publics in the United States and
its allied countries. (The present news-report, which is the first ever to present this entire case, is submitted to all
news-media in English-speaking countries, so that any of them that wishes to provide its audience access to this uncontested and
conclusive evidence in the MH17 case can do so, by publishing this article. Any of them that won't, don't want their audience to
have access to the conclusive evidence in this case, because this article is being made available to all of them to publish, free
of charge; so, there is no other reason not to publish it.)
The complete evidence will be described, and all of the conclusive evidence is linked-to, proving who perpetrated, and who
demanded, the shoot-down on 17 July 2014 of the Malaysian airliner MH17.
This article will start by demonstrating the most important thing, and will demonstrate it by means of
links
to the most conclusive evidence of all
. This is the evidence which absolutely proves that the official Netherlands-headed
investigation into this matter is an intentional and utter fraud -- a fraud which has already been conclusively answered and
exposed by the Russian Government. (Netherlands headed the investigation because
196
of
the 298 murder-victims were Dutch.)
Russia's
response provided, in excruciating detail, not only clear disproofs of the Netherlands-headed investigation's conclusions of
Russian guilt, but also
(and on the basis of
the
very same evidence
that the official investigation had made public on 24 May 2018) provided the still-unrefuted (but
nonetheless still effectively hidden)
proofs
of Ukraine's actual and incontestable guilt, in this mass-murder.
This evidence, of the Netherlands team's fraudulence,
carries the investigation a large part of the way toward its ultimate conclusion, regarding whom the person was who had demanded
Ukraine to commit this crime.
So, Russia's response, on 17 September 2018, used that Netherlands-headed team's own documentation, to disprove that team's
attribution of guilt to Russia, and to
prove
conclusively
Ukraine's
guilt
as having been the actual perpetrator of this mass-murder. Thus, the Netherlands-headed team includes the actual
perpetrator, Ukraine, and not only the Netherlands Government, which had helped overthrow Ukraine's prior and democratically
elected Government and bring Ukraine's current regime into power in February 2014, just months prior to the MH17 shoot-down,
which resulted from that
US
coup
.
Most readers who click onto the links here will be shocked.
What will shock them is the evidence, because it has not
been published in The West (except summarized in less than a half-dozen obscure news-media -- and, even there, generally not
documented, such as it is here).
The links will document and fully prove this stunning turnabout, from Russia to Ukraine. The documentation that was cited by
Ukraine and Ukraine's fellow team-member (the team's leader) Netherlands, against Russia, on May 24th of 2018, contained
previously unrecognized details (which were first pointed out in the Russian presentation on September 17th of 2018) which
irrefutably convict Ukraine. Consequently, Russia's response was ignored in The West, despite that presentation's having been
based upon the very same items of evidence that had been introduced by the Netherlands-led team on May 24th. Thus, the items of
evidence, there, are the same that the Netherlands-led team had themselves provided. The items of evidence here are not in
dispute
.
The current article will be the first-ever to hone-in on the especially shocking key data in Russia's data-packed September 17th
response, the key evidence that Russia was calling attention to there, and which prove Ukraine's guilt beyond any reasonable
doubt -- prove it on the basis of the very same evidence that had been introduced by Ukraine's own team in their presentation four
months earlier. Using the other side's evidence to convict that other side is what makes this denouement the stunning turnabout
that it is.
The Netherlands-headed Ukrainian
team still
refuses to answer
the Russian presentation, which responds to the Ukrainian team's May 24th presentation. Western
'news'-media have likewise almost completely ignored Russia's response. (
One
Dutch medium
did report on it but dismissed it by focusing on a subordinate part: their report said and focused on "Russia
now claims that the video images the investigators used to track the missile's transport to the Ukraine, were manipulated."
However, the part of Russia's presentation that will be discussed in the present article was being entirely ignored in that Dutch
news-report, which, as you will see here, has nothing to do with
any
claim
of manipulated evidence. Britain's
BBC
likewise
focused-in on the "manipulated evidence" that Russia's presentation had attacked. The
Washington
Post
instead headlined
"Who
spread disinformation about the MH17 crash? We followed the Twitter trail"
, and it focused-in on how polarized the public is
over the MH17 case. The West's 'news'-coverage was virtually entirely misdirection and disinformation, as you will recognize from
what follows here. And the evidence here is linked-to, so that you can see it for yourself.)
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After Monday's panic-buying spree at the close, tonight's opening session of 2019 is more of the same as US
equity
Russia's response documented beyond any question, at all, that this airliner was shot down by the Ukrainian Government, and that
Western (i.e., US-allied) 'news'media have been and are
covering-up
this crucial historical fact and The West's still-ongoing lies about the downing of MH17
.
Those lies are the basis of US and EU anti-Russia sanctions, which remain in effect despite the basis for those sanctions having
been exposed unequivocally, on September 17th, to be based on lies. Thus, continuing to
hide
those
lies is crucial to the liars. This is the reason why Russia's blazingly detailed presentation on September 17th has been
virtually ignored -- to protect the actually guilty. The evidence here proves that those sanctions,
themselves
,
are nothing but frauds against the public, and crimes against Russia -- ongoing additional crimes, which have been, and remain,
effectively hidden till now.
The reader can see and consider here all of the conclusive evidence in the MH17 case -- it can be reached via the present
article's links.
Unlike
the 'news'-reports in The West's 'news'-media, the presentation here is
not
presuming readers' trust
, but is instead providing
to
all readers access to the actual evidence
-- evidence that is accepted by both sides. That's what the links here
are for: examination
by
any skeptics
.
Skepticism in judging anything is not only good; it is essential to justice. Trust should
never be given
;
it should
only
be
earned
.
Otherwise, no democracy can function. Only dictatorship can function in a country that's controlled by lies, and by liars. Liars
are believed by people who have faith in them. Thus, faith in anything or anyone can poison judgment. The way to test the case
that is presented here is to click onto a link wherever one wants to see and examine the evidence. Without examining (usually by
spot-checking) the evidence, no reader can intelligently judge any case. Dictatorship is almost inevitable in a counry where
spot-checking of the actual evidence isn't
the
norm
. Most 'news'-media don't even enable such spot-checking. This is why 'news'-media are so often actually
propaganda-media instead.
So, here's the complete MH17 case, for any reader to judge:
The last announcement from the official investigation, the Netherlands-headed "Joint Investigative Team" (JIT), was on 24 May
2018, and it headlined
"Update
in criminal investigation MH17 disaster"
. It said:
The JIT is convinced that the BUK-TELAR [missile and launcher] that was used to down MH17, originates from the 53rd Anti
Aircraft Missile brigade (hereinafter 53rd brigade), a unit of the Russian army from Kursk in the Russian Federation. This
fingerprint has been compared with numerous images of BUK-TELARS, both Ukrainian and Russian ones. The only BUK-TELAR on which
this combination of characteristics also was found, is a BUK-TELAR that was recorded several times when it joined a convoy of
the 53rd brigade on 23 – 25 June 2014.
Consequently, the JIT presumes that within the 53rd brigade and within the circle around it, people have knowledge about the
operation in which that particular BUK-TELAR was deployed. Already in September 2016, the JIT disclosed that MH17 was downed
with a BUK missile of the 9M38 series.
The missile engine's casing shows the number 9 д 1318869032.
Typical of Western 'news'-media's coverage of that presentation, was CNN's report the same day, May 24th of 2018. It was
headlined
"Missile
that downed MH17 'owned by Russian brigade'"
. It stated: "'At the time this area was under control of pro-Russian
separatists,' said Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor of the National Prosecutor's Office of the Netherlands. The Buk launcher of
the 9M38 series 'was transported from the territory of the Russian Federation and was returned to that territory of the Russian
Federation afterwards'."
The Ukrainian side claimed they had finally found evidence which would enable them definitively to place the blame for the MH17
shoot-down on Russia. So, the very next day, May 25th, Britain's Telegraph bannered
"Netherlands
and Australia call for compensation for MH17 victims as they accuse Russia of downing plane"
and reported that "Australia and
the Netherlands have said they hold Russia legally responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 over Ukraine in
2014 and will seek reparations for relatives of the 298 people killed." This demand against Russia was coming "the day after the
Dutch-led international investigation concluded that the Russian military had deployed the Buk surface-to-air missile that shot
down the plane."
Four months later, on 17 September 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense youtubed its response, which is titled
"Briefing
on newly discovered evidence pertaining to the crash of the MH17 flight"
. It presented the actual history of the Buk
missile and launcher which Ukraine and the other Governments on the JIT said had brought down the MH17. (The JIT includes four
countries, Netherlands, Ukraine, Belgium, and Australia, with a fifth, Malaysia, having been brought in only later, after it
finally agreed to
allow
Ukraine a veto over any conclusions that the team will publish
. Malaysia's participation
started
on
4 December 2014; but whether Malaysia has actually been
allowed
to play a role in the 'investigation' isn't clear
.) Russia, during the intervening months after the JIT's May 24th
presentation, had tracked down all of those serial numbers,
8868720
,
and
1318869032
,
and
9M38
,
and found (as
you
can see there by clicking on each, especially onto the
"Briefing"
itself
)
that after the acquisition of the launcher and missile, by Ukraine in 1986, from Russia, that missile and its launcher had
always,
and constantly since their transfer to Ukraine in 1986, remained in Ukraine,
and never again were located in Russia. So: if
the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it
outright
convicts
Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side.
--
With the passage now of years, the precise cause of the shooting-down of the Malaysian passenger plane MH17 on 17 July 2014 has
been becoming clearer and clearer, despite the rigorous continuing attempts by Western 'news' media to cover it up and to hide
from the public the growing and by-now
irrefutable
evidence
(presented here) that clearly shows what and who actually brought down this airliner.
In the years since I headlined on August 24th of 2014 the news,
"MH-17
'Investigation': Secret August 8th Agreement Seeps Out: Perpetrator of the Downing in Ukraine, of the Malaysian Airliner, Will
Stay Hidden"
, the key fact about the official 'investigation' has actually been that the Government of Ukraine was,
on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team. On 20
November 2014, Russian Television headlined
"Dutch
government refuses to reveal 'secret deal' into MH17 crash probe"
and reported that Holland's science-publishers Elsevier had
filed for this information under that country's Freedom of Information Act, and the Government simply refused to comply with that
law. The leaders of Western nations apparently want the black-box and much other basic data in their possession to remain hidden,
and the four nations had signed this secret agreement to allow the Government of Ukraine to block any report that incriminates
Ukraine in the MH17 shoot-down. But additional evidence has nonetheless become public, and all of it confirms and adds yet
further details to the explanation that was first put forth by the retired German Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, whose
independent investigation had concluded that Ukrainian Government fighter-jets intentionally shot down this civilian plane. He
did not rule out the possibility that a Buk missile had simultaneously been used there, but he made clear that at least one
fighter-jet had been used in this shoot-down.
However, if those parts of a Buk missile, which were the focus of the Netherlands team's presentation on May 24th, were indeed
retrieved from the crash-site as that team claims, then a Buk missile had also hit the MH17. Serious question would nonetheless
exist as to whether that Buk was fired by troops who were working for Ukraine, or instead for Russia (or else for Donbas
separatists who were working in conjunction with Russia, which was
Ukraine's
and America's original version of the event
).
Precisely what the method was, by which the direct perpetrators brought down the MH17, has gradually become clearer, despite this
continuation of Western secrecy (and Ukraine's veto-power over the 'findings') regarding the contents of the black boxes, and of
the US satellite images, and of the Ukrainian air-traffic-control radar recordings, and of other evidence-sources that
are
still being held
secret
by
The West and not made available to their 'news' media nor to anyone outside a tight official circle
of those Western
nations' intelligence agencies.
But now, Russia has actually -- on 17 September 2018 -- exposed the outright
fraudulence
of
the JIT's 24 May 2018 presentation, and The West (the US Government's allies) entirely ignored the conclusive evidence that that
presentation by the JIT itself actually contained and to which Russia was pointing, so that there can no longer be reasonable
doubt about The West's intentional and still ongoing fraudulence regarding the entire MH17 matter.
Also entirely ignored in the Ukrainain team's 'explanation' of the event is why Ukraine's air-traffic control had guided the
MH17's pilot to fly over the conflict-zone where Ukraine's civil war was being waged and where Ukraine's war-planes were bombing.
The MH17's pilot
was
instructed by Ukraine's air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become
normal during the civil war
. This was highly abnormal, and it doomed the MH17. Clearly, only Ukraine's Government could, and
did, do that -- change the route, and for only that one plane. Yet, still, the Netherlands-headed team blames Russia and is
trusted in The West, but Russia is not. (Now, why would that be?)
Though Russia doesn't possess those black boxes (which,
by
chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the Malaysian Government's representative, and yet that Government handed
them to Netherland's Government instead of to Russia's
-- apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even
themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals, evidence that's conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with
Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, regardless whether a Buk was involved or not. Russian Television had issued in October
2014 a 25-minute documentary on the event, and it starts with people whom they interviewed in that region, who were describing
their having seen at least one and perhaps two planes rising toward the airliner, and then the airliner coming down from the sky.
Other witnesses told them that they saw an SU-25 fighter plane take off in that general area just minutes before the airliner
came down.
The interviews by the BBC were done by their reporter
Olga
Ivshina
. (Also see
http://archive.is/vFoh9
.)
She had filmed local residents in the crash-debris area. In one passage of her 23 July 2014 news-report, there were two residents
simultaneously who described what they had seen. One of them said, "And there was another aircraft." The other continued
immediately, in order to describe the other plane, "a military one, beside it ['it' being the airliner]. Everybody saw it. It was
proceeding underneath below the civilian one."
Here is the second, and clearer, version of that clip. (It's the one that's
still
live at youtube
.) The key portion on it is at 0:38-042 in the video:
That was the 9 September 2014 repost of it, with the same subscript-translation into English, only the visual is sharper.
And here is an apology, dated 25 July 2014, by the BBC, for their having removed their original video of this interview -- and yet
they still didn't repost it; they still continue to blockade it; even today the only versions available, of these, the earliest
recorded interviews of people who said they witnessed the event, are the independently posted ones, but here is the BBC's
apology:
So: clearly,
BBC
has done all that they could to remove evidence
, which they had mistakenly broadcast, which had fit the retired Lufthansa
pilot Peter Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, and which contradicted the US-Ukrainian reconstruction of it -- the
reconstruction that Western 'news' media project, and on the basis of which US President Barack Obama won from the EU
stiff
increases in
, and
subsequent
extensions of
, the economic sanctions against Russia, all on the basis of lies.
(Subsequently, on 17 December 2018, South Front headlined
"'EDITORIAL
BOARD DEMANDS BLOOD': INSIDE LOOK AT HOW BBC TRIES TO FIND PROOF OF RUSSIAN INFLUENCE ON YELLOW VEST PROTESTS"
, and they
reported that Ivshina had texted to a BBC stringer, on the streets of Paris, instructions of what story-lines were wanted by BBC
management regarding the "Yellow Vests" demonstrations against French President Emmanuel Macron,
"Yes,
I'm searching for the angles))) The editorial board wants blood, yo)))"
. "And if you find these ultra-rightists [at the
protests], will they talk about Putin and Moscow? Well, at least the Russians go to the protests, right?" Ivshina was instructing
her French stringer what to look for, in order for her to be able to report
the
type of 'news' that her bosses wanted to publish
. Perhaps Ivshina had been chastised in 2014 and had learned to never again
be caught reporting anything that challenges the UK Government's anti-Russia propaganda-line.)
So, this valuable eyewitness-testimony to the MH17 event is available despite Western 'news' media (or, more-accurately,
propaganda-media), and the reason for the news-suppression is clear to anyone who views
that
BBC 23 July 2014 report
,
which presents several eyewitnesses, interviewed separately as individuals,
not
as a group
, and yet all of whose testimonies -- perhaps despite Ivshina's wish for them not to say this -- report having
observed
the
very same basic narrative, of at least one
military jet rising toward the airliner just before it came down.
In other words: it is clear that BBC had yanked this report because it didn't confirm the West's story-line, which says that
Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists had fired a "Buk" ground-based missile at the airliner, thinking that the civilian plane was a
Ukrainian Government war-plane about to bomb them and their families. But, first of all, the Ukrainian Government was virtually
admitting there that they
were
bombing these villagers
, which means that they were perpetrating an ethnic cleansing operation there, which
indeed
that Government was doing
; but, secondly, the Ukrainian Government's statement also
acknowledged
that if the event had happened in that way, it would have been unintentional, a tragic accident on the part of the rebels there.
(The
JIT's line now is that it was instead an outright Russian attack against the MH17.)
So, then, why did "the international community" respond with massive economic sanctions against
Russia
on
account of this downing -- by, as it turns out, Ukraine? The whole Western propaganda position was designed for a public of sheer
fools, if not of outright psychopathic ones, who cared not a bit about the plights of the victims of an
ethnic-cleansing
campaign
. They cared only about victims in "The West." The West's basic story-line doesn't make sense without recognizing
that we were financing
ethnic
cleansing
to clear the land in southeastern Ukraine, and that any support that Russia would be providing to those separatists
would have been defensive in nature, not offensive. Yet Russia gets the blame when this passenger jet goes down? Even though
Ukraine's air-traffic control had guided the pilot there? In any case, that story-line of Russian guilt is false, from start to
finish. And now (at least after 17 September 2018) it is finished. But Western 'news'-media still continue to broadcast the lies,
as if it weren't.
Here is how outright
ludicrous
it
actually is, and sound reason in itself that anyone in the military had to have known, from the very get-go, that the "Buk"
'explanation' was a line of pure malarkey:
THE RUSSIAN DOCUMENTARY:
The 22 October 2014 Russian documentary was titled,
"MH-17:
The Untold Story,"
and it presents, among much else, videos of several "Buk" missiles being fired on other occasions, just to
show how utterly ludicrous the initial Ukraine-US-and-allied 'explanation of the MH17 event was. On
5
November 2014
, I summarized that, with screen-shots from the Russian documentary.
So, when even the BBC's reporter wasn't able to find anyone in that entire region who recounts having seen anything of the sort,
just how likely would the Ukrainian Government's line on that matter -- that not only was this done by a lone Buk but it was fired
by (at first) pro-Russian separatists, and (then) by the Russian army -- actually be? Obviously, any person with any military
knowledge whatsoever had to have recognized virtually immediately that the Ukrainian Government's story-line on the MH-17 downing
was a pile of sheer malarkey, but did anyone in the Western 'news' media report that it was -- that the Western line there was not
just a lie, but an absurd one, one that requires an ignorant public in order for it to be able to be taken seriously at all by
the public? One that requires an ignorant public, to
remain
ignorant?
This is supposed to be the Western 'news' media, with a free press, and a democracy, a truthfully informed citizenry, who can
vote based upon truths, not on mere lies?
Several of the locals there told Russian TV's reporter that they had seen a military jet rise toward the airliner; and not a one
of these individuals were any of the same ones who had testified the exact same thing to the BBC's reporter, whose news-piece had
been squelched by her managers.
HERE IS HOW MH17 WAS SHOT DOWN:
Now, to the substance of the explanation of how this plane was actually brought down:
Earlier, I had summarized the evidence for Peter Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, but I questioned his having accepted the
eyewitness testimony to the effect that the planes that shot down the airliner were SU-25s. In Haisenko's Russian TV interview,
he stuck by his belief that it was probably SU-25s instead of SU-27s or Mig 29s, both of which are also in the Ukrainian Air
Force, and all three of which use 30-millimeter machine-guns or "cannons." But since the fact is that all three of those
attack-plane models use machine-guns ("cannons") with 30-caliber bullets (which is the size that clearly was used, especially on
the cockpit), the effect would be identically-sized round 30-caliber entry-holes, no matter what. My last major report on that
evidence, prior to the 8 August 2014 formation of the JIT and their mutual agreement to report nothing that would be
incriminating to Ukraine's Government regarding the MH17 incident, was
"Systematically
Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian Airliner: The Guilt Is Clear and Damning."
That basically fills in (and the
links, in that report, document with pictures and videos that) the actual way that this plane was downed, and that
why
it
was downed was "to get the EU to go along with stiffened sanctions against Russia". Obama (via
the
regime that he had installed in a February 2014 coup in Kiev
) succeeded there in getting the international sanctions against
Russia that he had been wanting. Obama, and certainly not Putin -- and now we know it wasn't Russia at all (not even if a Buk was
involved) -- was the key person behind this. The 298 MH17 murder-victims on 17 July 2014 were murdered by Barack Obama (via his
agents such as
Victoria
Nuland -- she ran Obama's Ukrainian operation
), just as clearly as (if not even more clearly than) Crown Prince Mohammed bin
Salman al-Saud (via his agents at the Sauds' Istanbul Consulate) murdered Jamal Khashoggi on 2 October 2018.
International actions (such as economic sanctions) are based upon such fabrications, and 'evidence' taken out of its full
context, as
this
from the far-right
Forbes
commentator
Paul Roderick Gregory
, but there are no such
fakes
,
nor out-of-context items of evidence, in the case that has been presented here. That's the difference between news-reporting
versus propaganda; but, in the United States today, propaganda passes as if it were 'news,' and authentic news that doesn't fit
the regime's cooked-up narrative is suppressed entirely. The scandal isn't just Obama, and it's not just Ukraine; it is also the
propaganda-organs, and even (though to the least extent) their audiences who subscribe to such lying 'news'-media.
Western governments, and their 'news' media, are treating their citizens, their own publics, not really as citizens, but as
suckers. They are treating them as subjects, instead of as citizens. This is not authentic democracy. It is neo-feudal; it is, in
fact, fascism.
The entire "Buk" 'explanation' of the downing of the Malaysian airliner (the idea that
only
a
Buk missile caused the physical wreckage which was found) is for suckers only; and everyone in official circles, and in the
press, who peddles it, is just as fake as the ridiculous story-line that he or she is peddling. To fall for it, after being
provided all of the authentic evidence, which has been linked-to here, one would have to be a willing
slave
to
psychopaths
.
In this case, the psychopath was Obama, who not only had
perpetrated
a bloody coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Ukraine in February 2014
but who also was now struggling,
and had a very pressing obsession, to get the EU to accept his sanctions against Russia for its having accepted the pleas of
Crimeans (who had voted 75% for that President) to become restored again to Russia. The 14 July 2014 mass-murder that was set up
to be blamed against Russia was Obama's trick that enabled him to win his way on this.
CONCLUSIONS:
By no means do we know every detail about how the MH17 was shot down, but
what
we do now know for certain is that the narrative for that event which was supplied by Ukraine's team on May 24th -- the official
account of how it happened -- isn't just false; it is outright fraudulent.
Ukraine's team supplied evidence which, if it
is authentic, actually convicts Ukraine. And Western 'news'-media hide this crucial fact.
So, now, we know why Western governments have hidden, instead of making available to the public, the black-box data and the other
evidence that they still refuse to provide to the public. They are aiming to scam the public, not to inform it. Lying is their
game. They might call it 'patriotism.' Traitors would likely do that. Traitors to
any
country
could do it. And, so, they do. Their believers constitute their political base.
Unfortunately, anyone they fool becomes their tool, and everyone else is purely their victim -- helpless to oust (much less, to
replace) the tyrants who make things bad for everyone but themselves and their colleagues, the insiders at the very top.
Just the day before the MH17 shoot-down, Bloomberg News had headlined, on 16 July 2014,
"EU
Readies Russia Sanctions Amid US Pressure on Ukraine"
, and reported that "the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stance
against Moscow." The day before that, on July 15th, Bloomberg's headline had been
"EU
Leaders Weigh Sanctions Against Russia Over Ukraine"
, and that report opened, "European Union leaders meeting in Brussels
will consider expanded sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine conflict, as the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stand
against Moscow." Was the July 17th event only coincidentally timed perfectly in order to achieve what Obama was determined to
produce: the first Ukraine-based anti-Russia sanctions? The
regime
that Obama had installed in Ukraine in February 2014
needed not only his support, but also the support of the IMF (in order
to obtain loans), and of the EU (which it was seeking to join). There was probably even more pressure placed upon the leaders in
Ukraine than there was upon the leaders in the EU. But there was plenty upon them both. The EU was widely reported to be balking
at increasing the sanctions against Russia. Obama needed the EU to approve quickly his increased sanctions, so as to keep the
momentum going for
his
entire anti-Russian campaign, which had been the reason behind his February 2014 coup in Ukraine
. Something dramatic now was
needed, in order for Obama to win the EU's full cooperation. After all,
Obama
had secretly started at least by 2011 his operation to take over Ukraine
. This operation was, for him, one of the central
objectives of his entire two-term Presidency. Ukraine -- and Ukraine alone -- now had within its power the capacity to deliver to
him the EU's participation. Ukraine delivered it, precisely when it was the most urgently needed. This was essential in order for
Ukraine to be able to enter the EU. And entering the EU would be essential in order for Ukraine to be able to enter NATO -- the
next key step in the Bilderbergers' plan.
Perhaps the
survivors'
families
and Malaysia Airlines (which is owned by the Malaysian Government), and their Governments, will file both civil and
criminal charges now initially against Ukraine and its President Petro Poroshenko, and ultimately against Victoria Nuland, Barack
Obama, and the United States, but also against the Dutch Government, for its collusion with the United States Government in its
fraudulent 'investigation' that had
pre-established
blame against Russia
. (However, the secret agreement that Malaysia signed to join the JIT might prohibit Malaysia from
joining such suits.) Netherlands pre-established Russian blame especially by means of its 8 August 2014 secret four-party
agreement (joined later by Malaysia's Government) to allow Ukraine, an actual suspect in this case, to hold veto power over the
assignment of blame in this entire matter. However, not only the survivors of the 298 victims should be suing, but all of the
victims should be represented in this case. There were also many violations of international laws. Obama's
coup
against
Ukraine was one such. The MH17 shoot-down resulted from
that
coup
, couldn't have occurred without it, and was an extension from it. That coup is thus an important part of the MH17 case.
On 20 September 2017, the now 5 countries in the JIT signed a joint
"Memorandum
of Understanding"
saying "Arrangements for signatories and other grieving nations to make financial contributions to the
national proceedings in the Netherlands will be laid down in a financial memorandum of understanding," and that "This Memorandum
will remain in effect for five years and will be automatically extended for successive five-year periods." So, they intend to
continue their 'investigation' into MH17 until they can present to the world evidence that Russia did it. Perhaps before that
happens, however, all of the victims and their children will already have passed away and this fraud and farce will finally end,
as secretly as it began, and only few people will even care, anymore, about it.
Or will victims and their families, instead, initiate whatever legal proceedings they can,
right
now
, against all members of the JIT, for their cover-up, and against the ringleaders, in the US, who demanded this
mass-murder to be done, and against the perpetrators in Ukraine, who actually ordered and did it?
Maybe they'll even be able to get Barack Obama to return to the Nobel committee their 2009 Peace Prize.
Now, which major news-media in The West will report these solidly documented facts? Isn't it time, finally, that they
should start doing that? Or, do they have no honor, at all?
raybies
,
4 hours ago
Over here in the west we only believe what the zionists say.
Who Planned & Then Gave Porki the Go-Ahead to Shoot Down MH17 ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZOG USSA
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
play_arrow
3
play_arrow
iPragmatist
,
1 hour ago
Here's how those bastards stole
the funding from the US taxpayers behind the scenes for obama's 'coup' and then the very anti-Russian
propaganda we have been seeing since.
Sorry, but although I support the view that Ukraine was responsible for the MH-17 crash, I find this article
confusing, repetitive, and, in general, poorly written.
The critical facts available concerning MH-17 have all long been available from several sources. This
article really adds nothing.
The article neglects to identify who or what really shot down MH17. Further, the article neglects to
mention the elephant that is always present when one of these mass murders occurs - Israel. It was mere
moments after MH17 that Israel started to mow the Gaza lawn. See
https://www.vox.com/2018/11/14/18092434/israel-gaza-war-2014-rocket-raid-netanyahu-hamas
ExpatNL
,
14 hours ago
This man was behind shooting
down MH17. Igor Kolomoisky; born February 13, 1963) is a Ukrainian-Cypriot-Israeli business oligarch of
Jewish descent and the former Governor of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.[10]
A multibillionaire,
Kolomoyskyi is rated as the second or third richest person in Ukraine (after Rinat Akhmetov and/or Viktor
Pinchuk) since 2006.[11][12] and 377th richest person in the world by the Forbes (as of 2011).[9] In
March 2015 The Economist listed his net worth as $1.36 billion.[13] Kolomoyskyi is the leading partner of
the Privat Group and a de facto chairman of the FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.[14]
Kolomoyskyi is the co-founder
of the PrivatBank (and its informal Privat Group, respectively) and was appointed Chairman of its Board
of Directors in 1997.[5][14] Other fields of activity include: ferroalloys, finance, oil products, mass
media,[15] metal and petroleum industries (also in Russia and Romania).[16]
Kolomoysky has a triple
Ukrainian-Israeli-Cyprus citizenship because dual citizenship is not recognized by Ukraine.[17][18]
Kolomoyskyi explained that: "The constitution prohibits double citizenship but triple citizenship is not
forbidden."[19]
Part of his vast business
empire is Burisma Holdings Ldt, Ukraine's largest private gas firm. Shortly after Russia annexed Crimea,
while U. S. Vice-President Joe Biden was engaged in diplomatic talks with Ukraine, Burisma announced that
Hunter Biden joined the board of the company.[22]
In April 2014 Kolomoyskyi
offered a bounty for the capture of Russian-backed militants and incentives for the turning in of
weapons.[35] He also is believed to have spent $10 million to create the Dnipro Battalion,[34][36] and
also funds the Aidar, Azov, Dnepr 1, Dnepr 2, and Donbas volunteer battalions.[37]
Russia is asking for
Kolomoyskyi to be put on Interpol's wanted list.[38] On 2 July 2014 a Russian District Court authorized
his arrest in absentia for "organizing the killing of civilians".[39]
..together with fellow
Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, [he] founded the European Jewish Union.[47]
giovanni_f
,
15 hours ago
In a completely unbiased 'investigation', one out of two suspects not only made it to the investigators'
panel but even had the right to veto anything from being published what the investigators would find. It was
determined that the other suspect was guilty.
In the new normal of the 2000s this is not a joke but reality.
cwsuisse
,
16 hours ago
This is an interesting article. Although quiet lengthy. I think it is possible for every interested party to
conclude whether the russian or the ukrainian side is guilty of the flight MH-17 crime using exclusively
publicly available clues and information provided by exactly the parties alleging the guilt of Russia:
The ukrainian authorities failed to close the
ukrainian airspace to civil aircraft although serveral military aircraft were shot down by rocket
launchers over the eastern Ukraine in the 48 hours preceding the incident.
No information has been published, why flight
MH-17 has been instructed or permitted to deviate from ist preset flight path.
The voice recordings of Kiev Tower were
confiscated immediately after the incident.
A parliamentary enquiry by the leftist party in
Germany as to why the voice recordings were not published received the hilarious response that the
publication of the voice recordings is not in the national interest.
Reasonable arguments why the Russian side would have benefited from the crime are not available. On the
other hand with hindsight it is absolutely clear that the crime has substantially supported the case of the
Ukraine.
Consequently it is obvious that the majority of the responsibility for the crime rests on the shoulders of
the Ukraine, irrespective whether the plane has been shot down by the ukrainian or russian servicemen.
Clearly the countries of the European Union have colluded in covering up the role of the Ukraine in this
crime, obviously to assure the continued support of their citizens for the future integration of the Ukraine
into the European Union. And the media did participate in the collusion. From my point of view it is pretty
obvious that the Dutch investigation has been infiltrated by the services.
ExpatNL
,
16 hours ago
The USA govt returned Dutch gold that was housed in the USA.
To keep Dutch shut up about the coverup.
Superlat
,
12 hours ago
The Ukrainians either shot it down with a BUK missile system, completely consistent with the damage found,
and other evidence, OR the Ukrainians set it up to look like a military aircraft to be shot down by the
Russians (no evidence this happened).
The USA is a dirty-dealer. I wish the world had the guts to discipline us but they don't.
Fireman
,
16 hours ago
So the anglozionazi empire of **** and their lying pedovore cheeseheads in Bangladesh of the North aka
Holland are murderous thugs? Gee what a surprise.
everybody here in Russia knows it was the americans, british and dutch who facilitated and funded Ukraine's
shooting down of MH17....... however, this is probably the worst written account I have ever had the
misfortune to struggle through ...... meandering and constant repetition makes for painful reading ..... the
author needs to return to journalism school, even with the caveat that most journalism standards today are
rock bottom.
resistedliving
,
14 hours ago
everyone in America, UK and Holland know we killed the:
Skripals
Litvinenko
Markov
Perepilichny
Moskalenko
Politkovskaya
and the list of attempted poisonings too numerous to cite
oh, and Seth Rich just for the conspiracy theorists.
Black Dog 32
,
14 hours ago
I didn't get through the article, but I believe the author is pointing at the serial number on the missile
casing being made in Russia (Soviet Union), but owned by Ukraine. That plus the veto power over
investigation results for Ukraine.
If the veto power is true, then the results should be greeted with nothing but cynicism and skepticism.
JailBanksters
,
17 hours ago
The most obvious thing is, there were two suspects, Russia and the Ukraine.
One of those suspects had complete Kontrol over deciding what was evidence and what wasn't evidence, and the
other was not allowed any where near the investigation or even to review the evidence.
How Efing obvious does it have to be, by exclusion they actually implicated themselves.
It's about as crazy as Clinton deciding which emails to delete and which to show the FBI to prove she had
not breached protocol.
Perhaps if OJ had been a Juror on that day, he might not of gone to Jail !!
And it's just like 911, where the central suspects were leading the Investigation.
Nassim
,
17 hours ago
The whole thing is so obviously made in the USA.
A few months after this crime and mass murder, I met a young Dutch woman in a big shopping centre in
Melbourne. I told her the obvious and she turned so nasty towards me! It was inconceivable to her that the
Dutch government should lie about the murder of so many Dutch citizens. She was convinced it could only be
the "Russians". I wonder if she will ever learn the truth.
For a good summary of the dishonesty of the coroner in Victoria, Australia - 26 Australians who were killed
- I recommend this website:
I live in NL and get much the same response from people. The first LIE always sticks with people. and the
planners of these attacks know that,.
The Dutch Safety Board used to have an open comment and report link on their site.
I have been BANNED from commenting.
Renegade0031
,
19 hours ago
Het was allang bekend dat NATO+BruSSel dit hadden bedacht, Oekraine inlegvel, het pact van
MarraKECH,
de
leugens van Frans Timmermans, Mark Rutte en de Nederlandse SOROS media ( Hij richtte zijn Open Society
Foundation op, een stichting die onder meer opkomt voor democratie, liberale waarden, minderheden en
onafhankelijke media (prinses Mabel, de weduwe van prins Friso, werkt hier al jaren). bron
AD.nl
It was already knwon that NATO and
Europhiles from bruSSel has created and excecuted this plan to start an casus belli against Russia, all the
steps that the European Neo-cons and Azkenazi's are making from: the associatie agreement with Ukrianians, the
Marra
KECH
agreement with all the lies and spinning
from Frans Timmermans, Dutch PM Mark Rutte and their Soros sponsord media: Dutch prinses Mabel Bruinsma or
better known Mabel van Oranje is working for Soros as Royal familly member...
No Yellow vests in the Netherlands!
blueseas
,
19 hours ago
The black box fell into rebel hands so presumably the Russians had it. We're the Russians just plain stupid
and gave it to the dutch?
ExpatNL
,
19 hours ago
Lets discuss the ATC tapes that disappeared along with the Spanish Air Traffic controller who was on
duty that day,
Conscious Reviver
,
19 hours ago
More on Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17
If this Spanish Air Traffic Controller story is right it implicate Julia Timishenko, who was a
rival to sitting President Poroshenko. Guess who is currently leading in Ukrainian polls? Julia
Timishenko is leading with Poroshenko is second place.
giovanni_f
,
19 hours ago
" We're the Russians just plain stupid and gave it to the dutch? "
No, if they hadn't, the so-called West would have blamed Russia with "tampering". This way it becomes at
last clear that the so-called West has no interest in finding out the truth. there is no media in the
so-called West allowed to even consider an alternative explanation. An IRS visit on the next occasion would
be granted.
blueseas
,
19 hours ago
Come on now. The Russians had to have known that they'd be blamed anyway. Turning the black box over
just doesn't make sense.
Volkodav
,
18 hours ago
Russia has evidence, facts from first.
Quiet document this and other crimes
best waited Kiev and friends fall on own knife
Nassim
,
17 hours ago
The so-called "rebels" naively gave the black box to the Malaysians. The Malaysians handed them over to the
Dutch - without taking a backup. Don't forget that the Malaysians were incredibly corrupt at that time.
Their new government is taking Goldman Sachs to court to get back some of the money they stole.
Someone Else
,
17 hours ago
The rebels recovered the black boxes, but there was no way they were going to hand them over to
Ukrainian authorities. Instead they held them and eventually they handed them over to the Malaysians to
insure that the Ukrainians did not tamper with them. But the rebels did not realize that this conspiracy
was far bigger than just the corrupt government of Ukraine itself. The Malaysians promptly handed the black
boxes right back to the Dutch. Through US pressure the Malaysians were complicit.
green dragon
,
19 hours ago
The Ukraine coup was never about helping the Ukrainian people. It was about causing economic harm to Russia!
It has been five years since the coup and much of the major economic cooperation between Russia and Ukraine
is gone.
The Sanctions have impacted Russia's economy and Ukraine is now a economic mess. Ukraine is being saddled
for loan after loan that future generations will have to pay back. Many of the key resources Ukraine has are
in the process of being asset stripped if they have not already been. Corruption is now rampant. Arms are
funneled through Ukraine to middle east.
ludwigvmises
,
19 hours ago
What about the photoshopped image of a Ukrainian fighter bomber that supposedly shot down MH17. This "image"
appeared on Russian state TV a couple days after the event. Was that also credible and irrefutable?
Renegade0031
,
19 hours ago
illustration?
because tactitcal radar images wont be very helpfull for the audiance due the fact they dont understand
what they see...unless you are a female underwear seller who never has been close to a gun but is a
weapon and ballistic expert like
Eliot
Ward Higgins..
AUD
,
20 hours ago
Ukraine shot down an airliner travelling from Tel Aviv to Moscow back in 2000 or thereabouts. Ukranian air
defence units were carrying out drills at the time & stupidly launched a missile in the vicinity of this
commercial airliner.
What's so hard about the idea that the same thing happened again?
donkey_shot
,
19 hours ago
MH17 was steered onto a route over Ukraine not used by commercial airliners
ever
,
before or after. This fact precludes any possibility of your "mistaken, stupid" scenario having occurred.
Furthermore, there are clearly holes in MH17`s fuselage caused by machine gun fire. It was physically
impossible for Ukrainian air defense units to employ such ground fire: Clearly, MH17 was at the very
least partially brought down by a direct air-to-air attack: What makes that difficult to understand?
AUD
,
18 hours ago
********.
Fuck you Tyler
,
10 hours ago
No possible way machine gun fire applied after the crash ?
ExpatNL
,
20 hours ago
The photos showing cannon fire holes under the pilots side cockpit window say ''NO BUK Missile''
those photos disappeared quickly
donkey_shot
,
18 hours ago
The cannon fire holes do not say "no Buk missile". As the article states, it could very well be that
both
an
air-to-air attack,
as well as a
Buk
(diversionary) attack took place.
ExpatNL
,
20 hours ago
One of the names behind the attack was
John Brennan
ExpatNL
,
20 hours ago
What happened to the ATC tapes and the Spanish air traffic controller?
These questions refused to be answered by DSB and the Dutch govt.
giovanni_f
,
20 hours ago
you don't ask a question when you won't like the answer.
battered
,
20 hours ago
So I am confused which of the stories to 'believe'
was it a blunder that had to be covered up
or
a deliberate false flag
very different
ExpatNL
,
20 hours ago
IMHO it was a false flag attack.
I kept on top of this from the gitgo
There was an email sent to the US Army attache in Kiev and it was posted online back in 2014.
It disappeared very quickly.
It basically encouraged some kind of ''incident' to sway public opinion to the side of Kiev.
rtb61
,
20 hours ago
The Ukraine did it on there own, the US led the coverup but they were not pleased with the event because
lots of Western Europeans and Australians were murdered by the Ukrainian government, who were that
stupid, they thought only Asians would be on board.
However that does not excuse the US's guilt in covering it up and not prosecuting the criminals, they
betrayed all the Australian on that flight and that can never be forgiven.
battered
,
20 hours ago
To both:
If as you say, then would be a crime against humanity (another one)
to prosecute, would need true investigative journalism and not this ridiculous word mess
fulliautomatix
,
17 hours ago
I'd read it.
logang
,
20 hours ago
The photographs of the left wing show parallel incisions pointing at the cockpit. These incisions could
only have been caused by an air to air missile, not a Buk. It's as simple as that. The Dutch threw a handful
of Buk shrapnel into the wreckage in order to falsify the evidence. Evidence suggests that Assistant US Army
attache Jason Gresh (***) initiated the MH17 atrocity with an e-mail to oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky (***), who
organised the shooting down of MH17. Kolomoisky actually apologized for the shooting down of MH17, sayding
that is was a 'trifle'. It's on Youtube.
TitusTheGreat
,
17 hours ago
All very true, unfortunately political reality has nothing to do with fact.
bluez
,
20 hours ago
I saw this before in various places. The "western" media are now all totally corrupt. I didn't remember
seeing the part about the Ukraine veto agreement. That turned the whole "investigation" into a farce.
It's all lies now. In fact they have been making stuff up since forever. When I was in school they told me
it was important to "read the papers." I'm sure they believed it. This rabbit hole goes down to the core of
the earth.
It's the wool that's been pulled over your eyes to blind you, Neo.
Volkodav
,
20 hours ago
Ukraine AF Pilot Vladyslav Voloshyn suspect of shootdown was removed active duty,
given very high level civil position as director airport Mykolaiv.
Much was noticed his talkings, mood, personality stressed
Death by suicide Tokarev.
Very many internet BBC, many media have their version,
but close people Mykolaiv tell local story is different.
Ukraine SBU Officer of Cyber Lt. Col. Roman Labusov, born in Donetsk, defected with files
certain of incriminate Kiev, internal memos of measures to cover guilt for MH17.
This is non find west main media. This I found English:
False Flag Over Ukraine and
Israel's Ground Invasion of Gaza
Shot down or blown up with a bomb or whatever, the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has all the
fingerprints of a false flag. Maybe a multifaceted one including a diversion from Israel's ground
invasion into Gaza.
We may get distracted but we're not being fooled. Very little the controlled media will tell us about the
downed flight will be even close to the truth but they are working overtime to convince us.
Judge for yourself the authenticity of the following. The translation from Spanish to English is mine:
✈ Carlos.
@spainbuca
PARA VER HAY QUE MIRAR. ✈desde una posición privilegiada, ATC (Air Traffic Control) Borispol, Міжнародний
аеропорт Бориспіль (
[email protected])
Kiev. Ukraine
Joined August 2010
-----
TO SEE YOU HAVE TO LOOK. ✈from a privileged position, ATC (Air Traffic Control) Borispol
[Tweets starting at 8:17 AM - 17 Jul 2014]
Malaysian passenger plane with 280 passengers and 15 crew members crashed in Ukraine, near Russian border
Autoridades de kiev, intentan hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians
Cuidado! Kiev tiene lo que buscaba
---
Be careful! Kiev has what it was looking for
Vuelven a tomar la torre de control en kiev
-----
They've returned to take the kiev control tower
Kiev, tiene lo que buscaba, lo dije en los primeros tw, kiev es responsable @ActualidadRT
-----
Kiev, has what it was looking for, I said so in the first tweets, kiev is responsible
Nos van a quitar, nuestros tlf y demás de un momento a otro
-----
They're going to take our phones and other things at any moment
Antes de que me quiten el tlf o me rompan la cabeza, derribado por kiev
-----
Before they take my phone or break my head, it was downed by kiev
Que hace personal extranjero con autoridades de kiev en la torre? Recopilando toda la información
-----
What are foreigners and kiev authorities doing in the tower? Gathering all the information
El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
-----
The B 777 plane flew escorted by 2 ukrainian fighter jets until minutes before disappearing from radar
Sí las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca minutos
antes , no lo derribo un caza
-----
If the kiev authorities want to tell the truth, it is known that 2 fighter planes flew very close minutes
before, but the plane wasn't downed by one of them.
Nada más desaparecer el avión B 777 de Malaysia Airlines la autoridad militar de kiev nos informo del
derribo, como lo sabían?
-----
As soon as the B 777 Malaysia Airlines plane disappeared the kiev military authorities informed us that
it had been shot down, how did they know?
The tweet {"Sí las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca
minutos antes , no lo derribo un caza"
-----
If the kiev authorities want to tell the truth, it is known that 2 fighter planes flew very close minutes
before, but the plane wasn't downed by one of them.} is a little confusing, perhaps due to the stressful
situation, or a typo. In context with spainbuca's other tweets, perhaps the word "no" in the phrase "no
lo derribo un caza" was extraneous, or perhaps lacked a coma afterwards -- "no, lo derribo un caza"
regarding his previous tweet "Autoridades de kiev, intentan hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians"
In any case, despite the circumstances, he laid it out quite clearly:
Autoridades de kiev, intentan
hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians
Cuidado! Kiev tiene lo que buscaba
---
Be careful! Kiev has what it was looking for
TeraByte
,
18 hours ago
Me too I asked myself the very question "qui bono" all over again? Was it of Russian rebels´interests to
shoot down on purpose MH 17, unless this happened, because a mistaken identity of a civil airliner of flying
over a war airspace, where downing Ukrainian military aircraft had become a routine. The official truth
sounds foul, because air crash investigators refuse to compare their own findings against BUK missile
creator
Almaz-Antey
and
its provided details of BUK versions Ukraine possessed at that time.
Lokiban
,
21 hours ago
Yes, the Netherlands are corrupt.
If England wanted any hints on how to do the Skripall case they just had to look to the Netherlands and
their blatant corruption right in yer faces mentallity about MH17.
We live in the age of the apocalypse, it has become unstoppable and with all the corruption being outed one
could get a bit shellshocked but hang on, after so much corruption that is being revelead these days, one
tends to get bored.
mikamolyneaux
,
21 hours ago
As always, the crimes of the super-powerful elite are NEVER properly investigated and blame is NEVER
correctly assigned. These guilty psychopaths always get away with murder, blame others or leave their
atrocities unexplained. Sadly, this situation will continue for many years because those of us who read
these news sites and know what's really going on are a small minority and the rest of the world's population
is hypnotized by the mind controlling propaganda programs which the super-powerful elite have put into place
and too many of their paid agents who operate the propaganda programs are more interested in the money they
are paid than in honest work for promoting the truth.
English herbsman
,
21 hours ago
If anyone believe Russia would have the right mind to blow up a civlian airliner during a time where the
globallists wants to rape and pillage it, they have their head up their arses.
It was clear from the get go the Nazi's there ordered the strike on MH17, to provacate a war with Russia.
Especially since half the of Ukraine is fighting to rejoin Russia.
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
Exactly. Hillary is a Nazi. She fits right in. Where is Libya's gold Hitlary? Just wondering?
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
The article doesn't matter. The truth has been obvious from day one. Look at the cannon rounds to the
cockpit. They killed the pilots. Tick....Tock....
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
Ukrainian air force. Orders from Hillary and Nuland.
Internet-is-Beast
,
20 hours ago
Hillary wasn't SOS at that time, Kerry was.
Blue Steel 309
,
20 hours ago
I'd be surprised if this was directed from anyone in D.C., but anyone with 2 brain cells knows
it was perpetrated by Ukraine coup leaders.
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
The Nazi Ukrainian government with approval of Hitlary and Nuland are responsible for this atrocity. NOT
Russia. I have known this from the beginning. Gitmo and guillotines are waiting for crimes against humanity.
Obama is complicit. He went along. There is a blade waiting for him and Michael too.
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
Ukrainian air force jets blew a civilian airliner out of the sky. There is Evidence they thought it was
Putin's presidential plane. It doesn't matter. Hillary, Obama, and Nuland are evil, and need to be
executed. The time has come .
emmanuelthoreau
,
21 hours ago
Nuland's half-brother William (Bill) works for Facebook as an intel analyst, is probably CIA, and one
of the biggest assholes I've ever had the opportunity to meet in my life. And this was during a summer
foreign language immersion program in which he wasn't allowed to speak English, which meant he didn't
have much to say. Not exactly a Rhodes Scholar, that one. He quit before the summer was up, anyway.
We're not done with the Nulands, despite the advice in their father Sherwin's book "How We Die."
They'll be back, along with Victoria's (who probably would've been Sec. of State at some point for
Hillary) odious husband Bob Kagan. At one time Bob outweighed Vickie by a factor of two; not so much
anymore.
devnickle
,
21 hours ago
They are all connected. It's incest, but not about sex. Well, maybe that too. Ewwwww.
Karl Marxist
,
12 hours ago
Complicit is an understatement. Obama is a mass murder no matter how they're sliced. Regime change in
Ukraine, orchestrating or complicit in the outright slaughter of the passengers just to punish, accuse, harm
the people of Russia, Russia, Russia. If Obama, HRC, and those eluded to in this article are not prosecuted
for murder, then as attn. Larry Klayman said to Jason Goodman this past wee, we have no government.
Factually it looks like there already is One World Government which explains why there is no justice. Making
things so complex the real targets are obscured, thus let off the hook to get their sexual jollies with
little nameless kiddies.
fulliautomatix
,
17 hours ago
The Dutch got their gold, which is about as good a result as they could hope for.
Australia, well, Abbott got up and offered Porky the opportunity to buy some
coal: if that isn't "**** you, mate." from an Aussie I've never seen it. The US
still hasn't got around to offering another Ambassador.
Small beans when compared to the value of the actual lives that were lost, but
that's politics in western democracies.
edit: oh btw, i think Al Gophilia was writing exquisite sarcasm.
When governments perpetrate crimes, very seldom these crimes are proved beyond reasonable
doubt.
If some in the Dutch government were part of the possible MH17 conspiracy, for me it is
possible, would explain unexplained facts, but if they were, w'll never know.
The owner of FC "Lion": It is difficult for us to find a plane that would fly to Ukraine
published 2018/11/28
In 10 Ukrainian regions, martial law imposed by Poroshenko did not come into force de jure,
and
the first "swallows" of this entry have already arrived on Ukrainian soil. And flew in, from
where
Kiev did not expect. European air carriers stated that in connection with the introduction of
martial
law on the territory of Ukraine, they are forced to radically reconsider the air traffic regime
with this
country.
The situation is told by the Ukrainian media, reporting and the accompanying nuances of this
decision.
The nuances are connected with the fact that international-level football matches that are
scheduled
to take place on Ukrainian territory are becoming suspended in the air.
The UNIAN Information Service cites a statement by Jean-Michel Olas, owner of the "Lyon"
(France)
football club: " The decision was made to postpone the "Arsenal" match in London. We do not
know
whether we will fly to "Shakhtar", taking into account the political situation. It's difficult
for us find a
plane whose owners would send him there. Now the decision is made at the UEFA level. "
Earlier it became known that the match between "Arsenal" (London) and Poltava "Vorskla" in
the
Europa League was decided to be moved from the Poltava stadium to Kiev. It is noteworthy that
the
Poltava region by the Verkhovna Rada was not included in the zone of introduction of the
EaP.
At the same time, the possibility of transferring the match outside Ukraine was also
discussed due to
the fact that martial law is beginning to operate in a number of regions of the country.
Conducting two more international matches in Ukraine is open to question.
Recall that the martial law provides, among other things, the closure of airspace. European
air
carriers, apparently, are wary of how Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile systems move along the
streets
of Ukrainian cities. Do they really not believe Poroshenko's words that " the Ukrainian Armed
Forces
did not bring down the Malaysian "Boeing" over the Donbas in 2014 "? ..
(Google translation)
"... It lists Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council as "partner organisations" ..."
"... "The UK's Secret Intelligence Service, otherwise known as MI6, has been scrambling to prevent President Trump from publishing classified materials linked to the Russian election meddling investigation. ... much of the espionage performed on the Trump campaign was conducted on UK soil throughout 2016." ..."
"... "Gregory R. Copley, editor and publisher of Defense & Foreign Affairs, posited that Sergei Skripal is the unnamed Russian intelligence source in the Steele dossier. ... In Skripal's pseudo-country-gentleman retirement, the ex-GRU-MI6 double agent was selling custom-made "Russian intelligence"; he had fabricated "material" that went into the Steele dossier..." ..."
"... this movement in the west by gov'ts to pay for generating lies, hate and propaganda towards russia is really sick... it is perfect for the military industrial complex corporations though and they seem to be calling the shots in the west, much more so then the voice of the ordinary person who is not interested in war ..."
"... Seems to me that this shows the primacy of the City of London, with its offshore network of illicit capital accumulation, within Britain. It is a state within a state or even a financial empire within a state, which, for deep historical reasons isn't subject to the same laws as the rest of the UK. ..."
"... The UK's pathological obsession with Russia only makes sense to me as the city's insistence on continued 90s style appropriation of Russia's wealth ..."
"... British hypocrisy publicly called out. How this all unravels is one to watch. Extra large popcorn and soda for me ..."
"... It seems to me that the UK has far more to lose from doxxing than Russia does. The interference in sovereign allied states to 'manage' who the UK thinks they should appoint does not bode well for such relations ..."
"... A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times and Neil Buckley from the FT." Subcluster. Love it. Just how crap do you have to be to fail to make it to membership of a full cluster of smear merchants? ..."
"... I doubt very seriously that the British launched this operation without the CIA's implicit and explicit support. This has all the markings of a John Brennan operation that has been launched stealthily to prevent anyone from knowing its real origins. ..."
"... The Brits don't act alone, and a project of this magnitude did not begin without Langley's explicit approval. ..."
"... Now check out the wording in the above document: "Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow." Think about that. What would have blocked the flow of USG support for this project?? Why, the allegations of collusion against Trump, of course. Naturally, the Republicans are not going to provide money to an operation that threatens to destroy the head of their own party. So, there has been no bipartisan agreement on funding for anti-Russia propaganda ..."
"... This mob was created in the autumn of 2015, according to their site. That would have been about the time -- probably just after -- the Russians intervened in Syria. The Brits had plans for an invasion of Syria in 2009, according to their fave Guardian fish wrap. ..."
"... Pat Lang posted a report that strongly implies that charges of Russian influence on Trump are a deliberate falsification ..."
"... It seems quite possible that what is alleged as "Russian meddling" is actually CIA-MI6 meddling ..."
"... As I have said before, MAGA is a POLICY RESPONSE to the challenge from Russia and China. The election of a Republican faux populist was necessary and Trump, despite his many flaws, was the best candidate for the job. ..."
"... The Integrity Initiative's goal is to defend democracy against the truth about Russia. All this is so Orwellian. When will we get the Ministry of Love? ..."
"... They shot at an elephant and failed to kill it. So yes, out of the combo of frustration, resentment, and fear they hate the resurgent Russia and prefer Cold War II, and if necessary WWIII, to peaceful co-existence. Of course the usual corporate imperative (in this case weapons profiteering) reinforces the mass psychological pathology among the elites. ..."
"... The ironic thing is that Putin doesn't prefer to challenge the neoliberal globalist "order" at all, but would happily see Russia take a prominent place within it. It's the US and its UK poodle who are insisting on confrontation. ..."
"... Great article! It reminded me of what I read in George Orwell's novella "1984." He summed it all up brilliantly in nine words: "War is Peace"; "Freedom is Slavery"; "Ignorance is Strength." The three pillars of political power. ..."
"... Since UK has always blocked the "European Intelligence" initiative, on the basis of his pertenence to the "Five Eyes", and as UK is leaving the European Union, where it has always been the Troyan Horse of the US, one would think that all these people belonging to the so called "clusters" should register themselves as "foreign agents" working for UK government. ..."
British Government Runs Secret Anti-Russian Smear CampaignsSteveg , Nov 24,
2018 11:43:44 AM |
link
In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia
propaganda into the western media stream.
We have already seen
many consequences of this and similar programs which are designed to smear anyone who
does not follow the anti-Russian government lines. The 'Russian collusion' smear campaign
against Donald Trump based on the Steele dossier was also a largely British operation but
seems to be part of a different project.
The ' Integrity
Initiative ' builds 'cluster' or contact groups of trusted journalists, military
personal, academics and lobbyists within foreign countries. These people get alerts via
social media to take action when the British center perceives a need.
On June 7 it took the the Spanish cluster only a few hours to derail the appointment of
Perto Banos as the Director of the National Security Department in Spain. The cluster
determined that he had a too positive view of Russia and launched a coordinated social media
smear
campaign (pdf) against him.
The Initiative and its operations were unveiled when someone liberated some of its
documents, including its budget applications to the British Foreign Office, and
posted them under the 'Anonymous' label at cyberguerrilla.org .
The Integrity Initiative was set up in autumn 2015 by The Institute for Statecraft in
cooperation with the Free University of Brussels (VUB) to bring to the attention of
politicians, policy-makers, opinion leaders and other interested parties the threat posed
by Russia to democratic institutions in the United Kingdom, across Europe and North
America.
It lists Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council as "partner organisations" and
promises that:
Cluster members will be sent to educational sessions abroad to improve the technical
competence of the cluster to deal with disinformation and strengthen bonds in the cluster
community. [...] (Events with DFR Digital Sherlocks, Bellingcat, EuVsDisinfo, Buzzfeed,
Irex, Detector Media, Stopfake, LT MOD Stratcom – add more names and propose cluster
participants as you desire).
The Initiatives Orwellian slogan is 'Defending Democracy Against Disinformation'. It
covers European countries, the UK, the U.S. and Canada and seems to want to expand to the
Middle East.
On its About page
it claims: "We are not a government body but we do work with government departments and
agencies who share our aims." The now published budget plans show that more than 95% of the
Initiative's funding is coming directly from the British government, NATO and the U.S. State
Department. All the 'contact persons' for creating 'clusters' in foreign countries are
British embassy officers. It amounts to a foreign influence campaign by the British
government that hides behind a 'civil society' NGO.
The organisation is led by one Chris N. Donnelly who
receives (pdf) £8,100 per month for creating the smear campaign network.
To counter Russian disinformation and malign influence in Europe by: expanding the
knowledge base; harnessing existing expertise, and; establishing a network of networks of
experts, opinion formers and policy makers, to educate national audiences in the threat and
to help build national capacities to counter it .
The Initiative has a black and white view that is based on a "we are the good ones"
illusion. When "we" 'educate the public' it is legitimate work. When others do similar, it
its disinformation. That is of course not the reality. The Initiative's existence itself,
created to secretly manipulate the public, is proof that such a view is wrong.
If its work were as legit as it wants to be seen, why would the Foreign Office run it from
behind the curtain as an NGO? The Initiative is not the only such operation. It's
applications seek funding from a larger "Russian Language Strategic Communication Programme"
run by the Foreign Office.
The 2017/18 budget application sought FCO funding of £480,635. It received
£102,000 in co-funding from NATO and the Lithuanian Ministry of Defense. The 2018/19
budget application shows a
planned spending (pdf) of £1,961,000.00. The co-sponsors this year are again NATO
and the Lithuanian MoD, but
also include (pdf) the U.S. State Department with £250,000 and Facebook with
£100,000. The budget lays out a strong cooperation with the local military of each
country. It notes that NATO is also generous in financing the local clusters.
One of the liberated papers of the Initiative is a talking points memo labeled
Top 3 Deliverable for FCO (pdf):
Developing and proving the cluster concept and methodology, setting up clusters in a
range of countries with different circumstances
Making people (in Government, think tanks, military, journalists) see the big
picture, making people acknowledge that we are under concerted, deliberate hybrid attack
by Russia
Increasing the speed of response, mobilising the network to activism in pursuit of
the "golden minute"
Under top 1, setting up clusters, a subitem reads:
- Connects media with academia with policy makers with practitioners in a country to impact
on policy and society: ( Jelena Milic silencing pro-kremlin voices on Serbian TV )
Defending Democracy by silencing certain voices on public TV seems to be a
self-contradicting concept.
Another subitem notes how the Initiative secretly influences foreign governments:
We engage only very discreetly with governments, based entirely on trusted personal
contacts, specifically to ensure that they do not come to see our work as a problem, and to
try to influence them gently, as befits an independent NGO operation like ours, viz;
- Germany, via the Zentrum Liberale Moderne to the Chancellor's Office and MOD
- Netherlands, via the HCSS to the MOD
- Poland and Romania, at desk level into their MFAs via their NATO Reps
- Spain, via special advisers, into the MOD and PM's office (NB this may change very soon
with the new Government)
- Norway, via personal contacts into the MOD
- HQ NATO, via the Policy Planning Unit into the Sec Gen's office.
We have latent contacts into other governments which we will activate as needs be as the
clusters develop.
A look at the 'clusters' set up in U.S. and UK shows some prominent names.
Members of the Atlantic Council, which has a contract to
censor Facebook posts , appear on several cluster lists. The UK core cluster also
includes some prominent names like tax fraudster William Browder , the daft Atlantic Council
shill Ben Nimmo and the neo-conservative Washington Post columnist Anne Applebaum. One person
of interest is Andrew Wood who
handed the Steele 'dirty dossier' to Senator John McCain to smear Donald Trump over
alleged relations with Russia. A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah
Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times, Neil Buckley from the FT and Jonathan Marcus
of the BBC.
A ' Cluster
Roundup ' (pdf) from July 2018 details its activities in at least 35 countries. Another
file reveals (pdf) the local
partnering institutions and individuals involved in the programs.
The Initiatives Guide
to Countering Russian Information (pdf) is a rather funny read. It lists the downing of
flight MH 17 by a Ukranian BUK missile, the fake chemical incident in Khan Sheikhoun and the
Skripal Affair as examples for "Russian disinformation". But at least two of these events,
Khan Sheikun via the UK run White Helmets and the Skripal affair, are evidently products of
British intelligence disinformation operations.
The probably most interesting papers of the whole stash is the 'Project Plan' laid out at
pages 7-40 of the
2018 budget application v2 (pdf). Under 'Sustainability' it notes:
The programme is proposed to run until at least March 2019, to ensure that the clusters
established in each country have sufficient time to take root, find funding, and
demonstrate their effectiveness. FCO funding for Phase 2 will enable the activities to be
expanded in scale, reach and scope. As clusters have established themselves, they have
begun to access local sources of funding. But this is a slow process and harder in some
countries than others. HQ NATO PDD [Public Diplomacy Division] has proved a reliable source
of funding for national clusters. The ATA [Atlantic Treaty Association] promises to be the
same, giving access to other pots of money within NATO and member nations. Funding from
institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal
disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been
resolved and funding should now flow.
The programme has begun to create a critical mass of individuals from a cross society
(think tanks, academia, politics, the media, government and the military) whose work is
proving to be mutually reinforcing . Creating the network of networks has given each
national group local coherence, credibility and reach, as well as good international
access. Together, these conditions, plus the growing awareness within governments of the
need for this work, should guarantee the continuity of the work under various auspices and
in various forms.
The
third part of the budget application (pdf) list the various activities, their output and
outcome. The budget plan includes a section that describes 'Risks' to the initiative. These
include hacking of the Initiatives IT as well as:
Adverse publicity generated by Russia or by supporters of Russia in target countries, or by
political and interest groups affected by the work of the programme, aimed at discrediting
the programme or its participants, or to create political embarrassment.
We hope that this piece contributes to such embarrassment.
Posted by b on November 24, 2018 at 11:24 AM |
Permalink
"The UK's Secret Intelligence Service, otherwise known as MI6, has been scrambling to
prevent President Trump from publishing classified materials linked to the Russian election
meddling investigation. ... much of the espionage performed on the Trump campaign was conducted on UK soil
throughout 2016."
"Gregory R. Copley, editor and publisher of Defense & Foreign Affairs, posited that
Sergei Skripal is the unnamed Russian intelligence source in the Steele dossier. ... In
Skripal's pseudo-country-gentleman retirement, the ex-GRU-MI6 double agent was selling
custom-made "Russian intelligence"; he had fabricated "material" that went into the Steele
dossier..."
For M16 to expose this level of stupidity is stunning.
this movement in the west by gov'ts to pay for generating lies, hate and
propaganda towards russia is really sick... it is perfect for the military industrial complex
corporations though and they seem to be calling the shots in the west, much more so then the
voice of the ordinary person who is not interested in war.. i guess the idea is to get the
ordinary people to think in terms of hating another country based on lies and that this would
be a good thing... it is very sad what uk / usa leadership in the past century has come down
to here.... i can only hope that info releases like this will hasten it's demise...
Seems to me that this shows the primacy of the City of London, with its offshore network of
illicit capital accumulation, within Britain. It is a state within a state or even a
financial empire within a state, which, for deep historical reasons isn't subject to the same
laws as the rest of the UK.
The UK's pathological obsession with Russia only makes sense to
me as the city's insistence on continued 90s style appropriation of Russia's wealth
@6 ingrian... things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of Russia after the fall of
the Soviet Union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit Russia
fully, as they'd intended...
Let the Doxx wars begin! Sure, Anonymous is not Russian but it will surely now be targeted
and smeared as such which would show that it has hit a nerve. British hypocrisy publicly
called out. How this all unravels is one to watch. Extra large popcorn and soda for me.
I think we've all noticed the euro-asslantic press (and friends) on behalf of, willingly
and in cooperation with the British intelligence et al 'calling out' numerous Russians as
G(R)U/spies/whatever for a while now yet providing less than a shred of credible
evidence.
It seems to me that the UK has far more to lose from doxxing than Russia does. The
interference in sovereign allied states to 'manage' who the UK thinks they should appoint
does not bode well for such relations.
Meanwhile in Brussels they are having their cake and eating it, i.e. bemoaning Europe's
'weak response' to Russian propaganda:
"A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of
the London Times and Neil Buckley from the FT." Subcluster. Love it. Just how crap do you
have to be to fail to make it to membership of a full cluster of smear merchants?
Yet another example of the pot calling the kettle black when in fact the kettle may not be
black at all; it's just the pot making up things. "These Russian criminals are using
propaganda to show (truths) like the fact the DNC and Clinton campaigns colluded to prevent
Sanders from being nominated, so we need to establish a clandestine propaganda network to
establish that the Russians are running propaganda!"
"In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia
propaganda into the western media stream."
I doubt very seriously that the British launched this operation without the CIA's implicit
and explicit support. This has all the markings of a John Brennan operation that has been
launched stealthily to prevent anyone from knowing its real origins.
The Brits don't act alone, and a project of this magnitude did not begin without Langley's
explicit approval.
Now check out the wording in the above document: "Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed
by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to
have been resolved and funding should now flow." Think about that. What would have blocked the flow of USG support for this project?? Why, the allegations of collusion against Trump, of course. Naturally, the Republicans are
not going to provide money to an operation that threatens to destroy the head of their own
party. So, there has been no bipartisan agreement on funding for anti-Russia propaganda
BUT...the author assures us that the "deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding
should now flow" Huh?? In other words, the fix is in. Mueller will pardon Trump on collusion charges but the
propaganda campaign against Russia will continue...with the full support of both parties. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it...
This mob was created in the autumn of 2015, according to their site. That would have been
about the time -- probably just after -- the Russians intervened in Syria. The Brits had
plans for an invasion of Syria in 2009, according to their fave Guardian fish wrap.
A lot of
sour grapes with this so-called 'integrity initiative', IMO. BP was behind a lot of this, I
would also think. When Assad pulled the plug on the pipeline through the Levant in 2009, the
Brits hacked up a fur ball. It's gone downhill for them ever since. Couldn't happen to a
nicer lot. If you can't invade or beat them with proxies, you can at least call them names.
If Trump was taking dirty money or engaged in criminal activity with Russians then he
was doing it with Felix Sater, who was under the control of the FBI... And who was in
charge of the FBI during all of the time that Sater was a signed up FBI snitch? You got it
-- Robert Mueller (2001 thru 2013) ...
It seems quite possible that what is alleged as "Russian meddling" is actually CIA-MI6
meddling, including:
Steele dossier: To create suspicion in government, media, and later the public
Leaking of DNC emails to Wikileaks (but calling it a "hack"):
To help with election of Trump and link Wikileaks (as agent) to Russian election
meddling
Cambridge Analytica: To provide necessary reasoning for Trump's (certain) win of the electoral college.
Note: We later found that dozens of firms had undue access to Facebook data. Why did the
campaign turn to a British firm instead of an American firm? Well, it had to be a British
firm if MI6 was running the (supposed) Facebook targeting for CIA.
As I have said before, MAGA is a POLICY RESPONSE to the challenge from Russia and China. The
election of a Republican faux populist was necessary and Trump, despite his many flaws, was
the best candidate for the job.
The Integrity Initiative's goal is to defend democracy against the truth about Russia. All this is so Orwellian. When will we get the Ministry of Love?
"things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of russia after the fall of the soviet
union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit russia fully, as
they'd intended..."
They shot at an elephant and failed to kill it. So yes, out of the combo of frustration, resentment, and fear they hate the resurgent
Russia and prefer Cold War II, and if necessary WWIII, to peaceful co-existence. Of course
the usual corporate imperative (in this case weapons profiteering) reinforces the mass
psychological pathology among the elites.
The ironic thing is that Putin doesn't prefer to challenge the neoliberal globalist
"order" at all, but would happily see Russia take a prominent place within it. It's the US
and its UK poodle who are insisting on confrontation.
Great article! It reminded me of what I read in George Orwell's novella "1984." He summed it
all up brilliantly in nine words: "War is Peace"; "Freedom is Slavery"; "Ignorance is
Strength." The three pillars of political power.
Since UK has always blocked the "European Intelligence" initiative, on the basis of his
pertenence to the "Five Eyes", and as UK is leaving the European Union, where it has always
been the Troyan Horse of the US, one would think that all these people belonging to the so
called "clusters" should register themselves as "foreign agents" working for UK
government...and in this context, new empowerished sovereign governemts into the EU should
consider the possibility expelling these traitors as spies of the UK....
Country list of agents of influence according to the leak:
Germany: Harold Elletson ,Klaus NaumannWolf-Ruediger Bengs, Ex Amb Killian, Gebhardt v Moltke, Roland
Freudenstein, Hubertus Hoffmann, Bertil Wenger, Beate Wedekind, Klaus Wittmann, Florian
Schmidt, Norris v Schirach
Sweden, Norway, Finland: Martin Kragh , Jardar Ostbo, Chris Prebensen, Kate Hansen Bundt, Tor Bukkvoll, Henning-Andre
Sogaard, Kristen Ven Bruusgard, Henrik O Breitenbauch, Niels Poulsen, Jeppe Plenge, Claus
Mathiesen, Katri Pynnoniemi, Ian Robertson, Pauli Jarvenpaa, Andras Racz
Netherlands: Dr Sijbren de Jong, Ida Eklund-Lindwall, Yevhen Fedchenko, Rianne Siebenga, Jerry Sullivan,
Hunter B Treseder, Chris Quick
Spain: Nico de Pedro, Ricardo Blanco Tarno, Eduardo Serra Rexach, Dionisio Urteaga Todo, Dimitri
Barua, Fernando Valenzuela Marzo, Marta Garcia, Abraham Sanz, Fernando Maura, Jose Ignacio
Sanchez Amor, Jesus Ramon-Laca Clausen, Frances Ghiles, Carmen Claudin, Nika Prislan, Luis
Simon, Charles Powell, Mira Milosevich, Daniel Iriarte, Anna Bosch, Mira Milosevich-Juaristi,
Tito, Frances Ghiles, Borja Lasheras, Jordi Bacaria, Alvaro Imbernon-Sainz, Nacho Samor
US, Canada:
Mary Ellen Connell, Anders Aslund, Elizabeth Braw, Paul Goble, David Ziegler
Evelyn Farkas, Glen Howard, Stephen Blank, Ian Brzezinski, Thomas Mahnken, John Nevado,
Robert Nurick, Jeff McCausland
Todd Leventhal
UK: Chris Donnelly
Amalyah Hart William Browder John Ardis
Roderick Collins, Patrick Mileham Deborah Haynes
Dan Lafayeedney Chris Hernon Mungo Melvin
Rob Dover Julian Moore Agnes Josa David Aaronovitch Stephen Dalziel Raheem Shapi Ben
Nimmo
Robert Hall Alexander Hoare Steve Jermy Dominic Kennedy
Victor Madeira Ed Lucas Dr David Ryall
Graham Geale Steve Tatham Natalie Nougayrede Alan Riley [email protected]Anne Applebaum Neil Logan Brown James Wilson
Primavera Quantrill
Bruce Jones David Clark Charles Dick
Ahmed Dassu Sir Adam Thompson Lorna Fitzsimons Neil Buckley Richard Titley Euan Grant
Alastair Aitken Yusuf Desai Bobo Lo Duncan Allen Chris Bell
Peter Mason John Lough Catherine Crozier
Robin Ashcroft Johanna Moehring Vadim Kleiner David Fields Alistair Wood Ben Robinson Drew
Foxall Alex Finnen
Orsyia Lutsevych Charlie Hatton Vladimir Ashurkov
Giles Harris Ben Bradshaw
Chris Scheurweghs James Nixey
Charlie Hornick Baiba Braze J Lindley-French
Craig Oliphant Paul Kitching Nick Childs Celia Szusterman
James Sherr Alan Parfitt Alzbeta Chmelarova Keir Giles
Andy Pryce Zach Harkenrider
Kadri Liik Arron Rahaman David Nicholas Igor Sutyagin Rob Sandford Maya Parmar Andrew Wood
Richard Slack Ellie Scarnell
Nick Smith Asta Skaigiryte Ian Bond Joanna Szostek Gintaras Stonys Nina Jancowicz
Nick Washer Ian Williams Joe Green Carl Miller Adrian Bradshaw
Clement Daudy Jeremy Blackham Gabriel Daudy Andrew Lucy Stafford Diane Allen Alexandros
Papaioannou
Paddy Nicoll
Bellingcat (not Belingcat) is a [intelligence aenies] front, financed by amongst other
orgs, the Atlantic Council which in turn is financed by, well it's a long list!
"The shooting down of an airplane that was over Peru, full of missionaries" "sent airforce to
shoot it down" Recall witnesses seeing jets ? 0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
"... The Dutch were not right about MH17, and neither are the Danes. Almost certainly another anti-Iranian false flag coming -- this on American soil -- with war soon to follow. https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/ ..."
'The Russian military traced the Buk missile [9M38 missile], which shot down the Malaysian
Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in 2014, using serial numbers found on missile
fragments showcased by an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands.
'Using the serial number of the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 No. 8-30-113 and the engine of the
missile 9D131 with the serial number 8869032, the Russian military identified this missile as
one produced by the Dolgoprudny plant -- a Soviet/Russian designer and mass producer of
surface-to-air missiles located in the city of Dolgoprudny, Moscow Oblast.
'The military said that the documentation for the aforementioned missile is still stored at
the plant -- the missile with the aforementioned engine and nozzle cluster has the
manufacturing serial number of 8868720.
'According to the provided documents, the nozzle cluster was installed in the missile on
December 24, 1986. The engine was installed to the missile on the same day.'
The power of propaganda is such that it is able to create the artificial reality
in which Western citizen live. Right out of the Matrix ;-)
As jilles dykstra noted: "The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show."
Notable quotes:
"... Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections. ..."
"... The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen. ..."
Likewise, the Netherlands
story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. The commission refused Russians access to its
findings; this unfair dealing would force any intelligence service in the world to try and
learn what had been found.
Not that it was of any use. The Dutch commission indeed found out the numbers of the missile
that destroyed the jet; the Russians went through their documents and proved that this
particular missile had been delivered to the Ukraine (when it was a Soviet republic) and
remained there. A scoop! Now we know what happened with the jet – it was destroyed by the
Ukrainians, presumably by mistake, like they downed another Russian airliner . However, the
Western media ignored this scoop altogether. They decided to blame the crash on the Russians,
and so they did to the end. Even if Russian intelligence were to find and deliver to the Hague
the Ukrainian soldiers who operated the missile launcher, the Dutch, as loyal NATO members,
would look other way.
This already happened regarding Syrian chemical attacks – the Russians and the Syrians
delivered the very kids who unwillingly participated in the White Helmets' staged and filmed
'attack, directly to the OPCW. It was of no use. These guys are not after truth, they are just
repeating the narrative they learned by rote.
Still, Russian intelligence worth of its name would be expected to try and obtain maximum
findings in order to help the government to clear Russia's name of unjust accusations. There
revelations of Russian activity weren't particularly dangerous or vicious. But while this
subject had been discussed, a very painful and distressing development had been revealed.
The Western intelligence services have achieved incredible knowledge of whatever happens in
Russia. They have obtained extensive databases of Russian everyday life from traffic violations
and fines to passport scans, from residence registration to taxi requests, from messenger chats
to emails, allowing them to trace persons and events in Russia with uncanny precision.
Many databases had been stolen and sold by small-time crooks; Western intelligences had made
a concentrated effort to buy whatever is available on the black market; some bases were stolen
and sold for crypto-currencies on the deep internet.
The most valuable databases had been sold by the crooks and/or traitors, while the
Information Security Centre of FSB (ЦИБ ФСБ) led by colonel
Sergei Mikhailov who is now being tried for the high treason, did nothing to stop the leak.
" Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission
investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. "
How ?
Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did
it, and the intention to ask him why he did it.
Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more
sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more
objections.
If it was an accident, a very lucky one, hitting a plane coming from Amsterdam.
The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of
the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of
France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen.
".......Russia's
foreign minister has accused the open-source Bellingcat investigative team of acting as a front
for Western intelligence services seeking to manipulate public opinion.
Bellingcat has played a leading role in identifying the alleged names of two men accused
of trying to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain this year. It has
previously published investigations that reportedly link Russia to the downing of flight MH17
in eastern Ukraine and suspected chemical attacks in Syria.
"It's no secret to anyone, Western journalists write openly that Bellingcat is connected to
special services," Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Euronews
on Tuesday.
"They leak information through it to have some effect on public opinion," he
said......."
not seen till now though is any questioning of Bellingcat's credentials in mainstream
media. So let me hand you over, without further ado and with hearty if surprised approval,
to Mary Dejevsky: not known as a Kremlin stooge or Putin troll. Yet here she is, in today's
Independent, asking in all sincerity and with admirable bluntness just WTF is Bellingcat?
"... its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting. ..."
SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat. Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is
no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning.)
To those of you who are like myself deeply sceptical about this story can I recommend this article in the UK Independent newspaper.
We should be asking for answers about the Skripals and Bellingcat – and not just from Russia. Mary Dejevsky.
Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special
attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic
Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.
When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed
more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the
story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.
And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians
seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not
by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)
Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special
attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic
Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.
When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed
more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the
story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.
And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians
seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not
by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)
I think some people here are actually taking Eliott Higgins far too seriously...he is still an uneducated underwear salesman...and
acts like it...case in point his recent twitter outburst at Ted Postol, calling him an 'idiot'...that just shows what a substance
free clown this guy is...
I briefly looked at that blog article linked to by snowflake and it is basically verbal diarrhea...bottom line is that Higgins
and that Bellincat 'outfit' are best simply ignored...not worth the time or mental bandwidth to even think about...
Atlantic Council has a very great Ph.D consultant, and strategists' strategist and tacticians' tactician, Dr. Blank. He, of all
places, taught in US Army War College. He taught, of course, about Russia, since he has Ph.D in Soviet/Russian "history" or whatever
passes as such in US "Russian Studies" field.
His strategic concepts are so devoid of even basic high school level knowledge of Russia (and her geography, BTW) that one
is forced to ask how is it even possible to have this kind of "experts"? Among many outlandish ideas Dr. Blank proposed in his
academic career dedicated to fighting evil Russians was to send US Navy to the Azov Sea to demonstrate the US Naval might.
This was one of the most profound facepalm moments of my life--I mean it. Not only Dr. Blank has no clue about Russia, he also
has no clue about US Navy. Yet, he is an expert, alright.
You left the best part out of that State Department policy statement. He announced a new position, the Senior Advisor for Russian
Malign Activities and Trends or SARMAT for short. That's straight out of the axis of evil mindset. How can we have a sober and
productive policy towards Russia with crap like this?
I thought that was from Duffleblog but you're right:
https://www.state.gov/p/eur...
Third para from the bottom. Part of that $380 million must be Bellingcat's budget.
I can't wait to see what awful person is selected for this role. Also, Sarmat is also the name for Russia's newest ICBM, which
makes one wonder what was on the back of their minds when they came up with this one.
washingtons foreign policy visa vie russia and china is as yet unable to reach the psychological stage of sublimation. frustrated,
angry and demoralised that they can not militarily atttack russia once and for all putting paid ....to who is the biggest dog
in the yard...... american elites lash out ineffectually using various media, economic and financial games to assuage their inability
to get their way.
each iteration of this plan becomes weaker and less effective than the previous one leading to more rage at being thwarted.
where the current crop of american ruling elites are concerned we are talking about 2 factors.... a profound lack of a really
good cosmopolitan education and a near total lack of appreciation for how weak the american industrial base has become the past
30 years (you can not intimidate powerful nations if your military technology is 1 or more generations BEHIND)
an apt understanding of washingtons dilemma is best grasped reading the kubler-ross stages of grieving over a dying loved one.
in this case the dying loved one is american exceptionalism and the l godlike power that goes with it for the 1/100 or 1%.
its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much
face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next
15 years ought to be quite exciting.
Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the
Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.
"Highly Likely" Iran had a hand in it also. Judas was a 'Persian', of course, and would
have been a Shiite if he hadn't been suicidal and lived another 800 years or so.
Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned.
"Australia believes there is conclusive evidence," he said.
Mr Loke's remarks also caught the attention of Christo Grozev, an investigator with
Bellingcat, a London-based reporting website that has recently dragged several of Russia's
covert disruptions into the light.
It was a "surprising dissension", he said. Malaysia was the "only country that did not
fully endorse the findings of the joint investigation team".
In an interview with the ABC, Mr Grozev said Bellingcat was now actively probing whether
Russia had played a role in this public display of disunity.
The team's "working hypothesis", he said, was that the entire Malaysian contingent, or one
member of it, had been compromised by Russia's spies.
.......
Where would we be without solid, honest citizen journalism like this? Bellingcat has passed
the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back. In fact, we have not heard
Peep One from any of them since Bellingcat burst on the scene, and the British press goes
straight to print from its reports, to hell with waiting for informed comment from the
intelligence services or law enforcement.
Come to think about it, what are their countries paying them for?
I'm looking forward to the first Bellingcat spin-offs.
Eliot Higgins – Special Invesigator featuring Tom Cruise and introducing Sparky his
lovable mongrel dog which miraculously survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre and can sniff
out GRU agents a mile away.
And following temporary employment reviewing orders at a Leicester UK women's underwear
manufacturer, the unemployed Higgins then "dispensed with looking for another job so that he
could devote himself to blogging full-time" and has now pogressed to being a senior fellow in
the "Digital Forensic Research Laboratory" and the "Future Europe Initiative", projects run
by the Washington, D.C based "think tank" the "Atlantic Council".
Higgins hard at work researching
A "kept man"? His wife must bring home the bacon then.
Well, she would if she were not a Turk.
The then 32-year-old Higgins started blogging about the civil war in Syria from his home
as Brown Moses: "He had no formal intelligence training or security clearance that gave him
access to classified documents. He could not speak or read Arabic. He had never set foot in
the Middle East, unless you count the time he changed planes in Dubai en route to Manila, or
his trip to visit his in-laws in Turkey".
As far as I am aware, he still has no credentials for his chosen field, albeit he is now a
"fellow" of this and that. He has also since bursting into the bloggosphere considerably put
on weight:
Higgins belongs to an obsessive coterie of self-appointed military intelligence experts
who use social media to piece together critical details of faraway conflicts, often well
ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the
military-industrial complex, these amateur analysts have honed a novel set of sleuthing
skills that fuse old-fashioned detective work with new sources of intelligence generated by
cell phone cameras and spread by social networks. Syria's war, widely considered the most
documented conflict in history, has turned social media into a weapon of mass detection --
critical both for fighters on the ground and for faraway observers trying to make sense of
the conflict.
The mind boggles: he and his fellow "amateur analysts" are often well ahead of seasoned
professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial
complex !!!
Once upon a time, nobody would dare to do what they are doing because of the danger of a
ruinous lawsuit. But so long as he continues accusing the right people, the west will
safeguard him from that as best it can. Maybe that's the way to go. They've left themselves
without a retreat, saying this and that are 'confirmed'. Sue the outfit.
Note how Bellingtwat states that it has "conclusively" established the real identity of
Petrov on evidence gleaned from "multiple open sources" and "testimony from people familiar
with the person" in question.
How do they do this?
First to the post again and well ahead of all the Western intelligence agencies, which are
obviously understaffed with incompetents and not in possession of state-of-the-art means of
gathering intelligence such as . errrr, Facebook?
A few days ago, that lying old slag May appeared on stage at the Conservative Party annual
conference with Abba's "Dancing Queen" playing in the bacground. May appeared to be trying to
dance to the Abba hit. What a cupid old stunt!
And yesterday at an EUSSR Brussels conference, EU chief-executive and piss-artist Juncker
appears to have been possibly trying to take the piss out of that old, lying bag May's
gyrations:
Yes, their resources really do beat all, don't they? Able to trawl through Russians' private
records at will, even those ominously marked, "Not for public release". But then, they have
lots of willing helpers inside Russia, which the western intelligence agencies officially
have not. Makes you wonder how Russia can miss catching them, innit, considering the
intertubes are strictly controlled in Russia and all their intelligence transactions are in
the public domain? I mean, with their troll farms and all their snoopy organizations?
Bellingcrap could have just mentioned its sources during the course of its article instead of
proclaiming that it's going to detail in another post to be supposedly published today (9
October 2018) the methodology it and The Insider Russia used and the information trail
established. Perhaps a sign that Bellingcrap is starting to feel some pressure to lift its
game to a level acceptable to its masters at The Atlantic Council?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. BellEndCat can only manage the former.
Still, it's good enough for the BBC who this morning spoke to a (former?) Georgian minister
who was saying that if the West was united and stopped Russia from invading Georgia in 2008,
then Ukraine, Crimea, Skripals etc. wouldn't have happened, followed by BBC correspondent
Norton who said that 'was about right'.
I hope their nationalists get back control of their own government before too long.
Here is a typical piece of nonsense inspired by fear of democracy. There is definitely a
panic in the works.
"The New Dutch Disease Is White Nationalism:
An upstart far-right party in the Netherlands threatens to entrench xenophobia in one of
Europe's most progressive countries. "
I continue to believe that China has made it quite clear to the US that any nukes headed
to Russia will be presumed aimed at them and be retaliated against....so I don't see nuke war
but continued economic war and the less and less international mayhem as Russia/China
continue to hem in the dying empire beast
Before the end of this year the world will be tied up into gridlock between the factions
that in my mind continue to represent the culturally imbued concepts of public or private
money/finance.
consensus versus bullying styles of management. I am tired of bullying and think many
others are also....the example we just saw with the Supreme Court circus and John Cornyn
saying the the Senate wouldn't be bullied....
"... Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments ..."
"... The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database. The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers. ..."
"... So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian. ..."
How difficult would it be for the SBU to paint a Ukrainian BUK launcher to look exactly
like a Russian one and drive it round Ukraine for a while stopping long enough every now
and then for members of the public to take photos of it and post them on social media.
Unless the MH17 investigation can produce photos of the alleged BUK launcher crossing
into Russia, the authenticity of the photos can and should be questioned.
The really important question is still why were commercial airliners allowed to fly
over Ukrainian airspace in the east when it was clearly known that heavy SAM launchers
were active and at least one high-flying aircraft had already been shot down?
There was also a rumor going around that MH17's original route was over the Black Sea,
but that Kiev ATC had them alter their path in mid-flight to go over Donbass, supposedly
because of inclement weather. If so, very suspicious.
Qantas ceased flying those routes months before MH17 solely on the basis that medium
range SAMs were in the ORBAT of at least one of the combatants.
The airspace is owned by Ukraine who collects air navigation charges from overflying
aircraft, hence there would have been a financial incentive to keep accepting flight
plans for those routes.
Tech equipment like this usually has two types of logbook. One is the daily
serviceability log signed off after each functional test and inspection, and kept with
the equipment, and the other is a set of maintenance logs for each system within the
(eg.) missile. The latter would be held at the higher echelon maintenance facility
waiting for the thing to come home and get fixed or overhauled.
If the Russians gave the munition to the Ukrainians as a permanent allocation, they
would have kept basic details but would have given the maintenance books en masse to the
Ukrainians due to the weight and volume of these in paper format. They would still have
enough to ID what they actually sold or gave away.
The article by Pepe Escobar in Asia Times quotes the Russian MOD, which links the
manufacturing serial number of two engine components back to the site of manufacturing
and then tracks that forward into the final assembly - the missile. Then the Russians
track the missile to the unit it was assigned to in Ukraine.
"So now we know, via declassified files, that the engine of the missile 9D131
allegedly had the serial number 8869032. And a "passport" for the nozzle cluster
9D13105000 carried the number 8-30-113. The actual missile number was 886847349, they
said."
I guess I should add it wasn't exactly exactly excitement that made me comment twice. But
... technical ...
I did correct one of those two comments. ... Once the first showed up. Incidentally
after the second. I regret this now. Somewhat.
Had no sound initially. Interestingly the Russian version works even without it.
Somehow.
my initial question circled around this statement.
2. The videos are fake. The sightline evidence is, to my mind,
apodictic. I've seen other arguments that they are fake but these are
the most convincing. (I do like the backwards driving TEL).
.... That I surely didn't understand without sound. Or maybe not to the extend I would
have liked.
Check Patrick's linked video: "Russian MoD briefing". About 26 min in.
But I like the video's slowness. Did the JIT seriously use that type of open source
"evidence" too? Hard to believe. As hard to believe as the enormous success of its
founder? Who even made it into our news for a short time as British expert.
Concerning Pepe, I was pleased about this:
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also
challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group,
allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft
missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also
challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group ,
allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft
missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.
I thought that's exactly what they do in Patrick's Russian visual evidence video link
above starting around 26 minutes into. Made me look up his site: its English, French,
Russian by now. ;)
Yes, that's the original manufacturer's data, and given the manufacture date's proximity
to the transfer date it looks like the munitions were made specifically for a Ukraine
order, which may indicate sequential serial numbers across the batch.
The actual maintenance document bundle would disclose if any internal serial numbered
systems were swapped out for newer Russian hardware after 1986 during the days of
Rus-Ukraine brotherly love. This would have a higher chance of occurring if the entire
SAM system was on a Russian maintenance contract, however .. I think not because the
Ukr's had plenty of rocket expertise and I suggest they kept the lot, maintenance
document and all.
It's up to the Ukr's to produce evidence of what they say the do not have.
The "cui bono" is the first thing to investigate.
Russia had none.
Ukrainian had plenty of obvious one at that.
In fact shortly after the tragedy I was contacted by The saker francophone to developp
some argument about this. Note that it was before this francophone site was
re-structured. My research focused on the Buck and their presence in Ukraine vast left-over of the
URSS echelon strategy storage... with scarcely any maintenance.
Then I focused on the proximity fuse system (a US invention from WWII, which in fact
started the first electronic industry), short wawes sent and received, complicated set-up
and involving springs to actually trigger the explosion.
Optimal distance was 15 to 50 meters , explosion from little above and missile coming
from front (not to be on pursuit mode).
My hypothesis still is that the Buck was pre-1991 era and not very well maintained,
that the explosion did occur a little prematurely, killing the crew, causing extensive
damages, but not actually destroying the plane capacity to fly
There enter the phantom Ukrainian hunter jet giving the "coup de grace". And this could explain the round entry holes, with on the same picture (left door of the
cockpit) exit holes.
Russian defense Ministry was not fully affirmative of the presence of this fighter
jet, but was fully positive on 3 buck systems with active radar (acquisition range 140
kilometers, that's 9 minutes to get ready).
The story of the pilot, there are some testimony at his landing, about a rather livid
and upset fellow, he did divorce and commit suicide. What this is worse, I don't
know.
note: for other reasons I did stop very fast collaborating wit the Saker
Francophone.
Well the Brits keep such detailed notes of their weaponry. About 30 years ago I had the
inner cocking lever of a Bofors 40/60 break, and within a few days we had all the
documentation of its manufacture in Britain during WWII - names of the factory, the
machinist, heat treating and quality inspection. All that for one small part of the
breech block. You can guarantee that the Soviets would be just as methodical about a
significant item like a missile.
"Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie"
fragments."
You still ignore the fact that even now the Russian admit that a BUG brought down the
airplane. It was the Russian side which produced a lot of ridiculous statements (ground
attack plane with limited service height was launching platform), faked internet sites
(SU25) and then quite silently, when the official investigation of the debris of the
PLANE could not longer be ignored, admitted that it was a BUG.
BTW: Experts were already a few days after the incident able to conclude that a ground
based system must very likely be the culprit, simply by analyzing the many hundred photos
of the plan fragments. It was clear that a very high density of fragments were in the
front section, while missiles launched by airplanes would have caused damage in other
sections (esp. wings around engines).
The Buck system is composed of 3 vehicles
one is for the long range acquisition radar.
The missile does have an in-build acquisition radar but with a 35 miles range. The idea, and Bellingcat pictures supporting it, of a lonely lorry with a missing
missile, was ridiculous.
While typing i get confused and have edited: it was a picture of the left side
cockpit, and it did show round entrance holes and rugged exit. An ex German pilot was
positive it was gun amo marks.
Yes I did read your piece in Russia Insider the day it was published. Thanks for your
work.
ELINT, and what we have not been told about, it is the key here.
The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars
associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database.
The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted
and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US
special forces were there, if only as observers.
So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least
every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that
the system was Ukrainian.
Petri Krohn is unconvinced by the vanishing point argument pointing out that the Buk
TEL does not sit flat on the trailer.
Yes, there seems to be something beneath the Buk-Tel, whatever it is. There are other
trailer images that don't have this thing underneath. One can see it better in the video.
Who is Petri Krohn?
What puzzles me me more are the "the truck's (blue)" lines. Why would you take the
back of the cabin? Vs the sides as with the Buk-Tel on the trailer to make your point?
For special effect? Heighten the difference to earlier neatly converging vanishing
points?
Last but not least in that specific shot there is a slightly complicating camera
angle. The shot is a bit sideways from the driving car. Which does not quite fit into the
earlier continual straight ahead pattern.
But yes, the JIP did its best in impressive visualization too. See video below.
*******
Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster/Narrative conference 24 May 2018. The
precise numbers are given here for the first time? Publicly? Pressure on the Russian.
After all one has a lot more evidence one does not show we are told. From that
perspective the response is not bad. See first video linked below.
So now we have new offer for the so far main suspect, the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft
Missile Brigade, we are offered to look into the Ukrainian 223 Tereboylya Anti-Aircraft
Brigade, now stationed in Stryi. The earlier Russian military unit 20152.
Here comes the more entertaining earlier version of the Public Prosecutors Service
collection. There is more. Anyway, I vaguely remember this one. A visually coherent
narrative for easy public consumption. It feels this was centrally
challenged.
Re my earlier comment, the JIT info request seemed a bit odd. You'd think they would
have access to Russians who could give them chapter and verse on what these numbers mean.
Any thoughts?
I haven't changed my position from this
https://patrickarmstrong.ca...
Leaving the port engine intake out is all I need to convince me that it's just part of
the anti-Russia war
Yes, I read your article at the time and again just now. It still makes sense to me.
Presumably the warhead on this missile identified by the MoD was of the older "non
bow-tie" type (as per AA)? If so, it's all starting to look a bit like a QED, is it
not?
Right from the beginning I wondered if Russia would have captured enough data to know
what happened. Is that how you see it and if so, how do you rate the odds that Russia has
been playing an incredibly long game on this one?
We'd all like to wish they were but my thinking is that only when the numbers appeared
were they able to have an actual FACT on which they could work. All the accusations
against Moscow are simple assertions with no facts you can get your teeth into. Finally
the Ukes were stupid enough to present a fact.
So are you also suggesting that whatever evidence the Russians collected at the time
of the incident wasn't incontrovertible enough to overcome what would be the automatic
Western presumption that it must be faked?
In other words, while the Russians may know what happened they were previously unable
to prove it to the satisfaction of a sceptical audience?
It's almost amusing. At the JIT May 24 update briefing,
Politie.nl reported that the following request for information was made:
"Jennifer Hurst, Commander of the Australian Federal Police, explained, on the basis
of an animation that the JIT urges the public to think about answering three specific
questions about both rocket components found on the crash site.
Do you recognize the handwriting of the number on the venturi?
Do you have information about the numbers on the venturi and the casing? Or do you know
anyone who knows about the meaning of those numbers?
Are you or do you know someone with information about the missile in which these parts
have been placed and to which unit this missile was delivered?
Hurst: "If you have an answer to one or more of these questions, then we urgently ask
you to contact the JIT.'"
So it's just the Russian MoD being a good citizen . . .
P.S. At the same briefing the JIT noted they couldn't be certain these missile
fragments belonged to the one that brought down MH 17. That caveat aside, however, this
does seem a rather comprehensive response from Russia.
Will we ever see the chain-of-custody record of these items ?
It would also be interesting to hear from (ex) tech intel exploitation people who have
been out and about scavenging up bits of expended rocket case in the past, if in their
experience the case displayed here should have been more deformed by it's terminal
velocity (80 meters/second ?) impact with the ground.
Official investigation looks more and more like 911 commission or JFK assassination
commission. Powerful state via their intelligence agencies now have tremendous capabilities to
hide even most egregious crimes and block any objective investigation for many years, if not
forever.
After so many years the discussion of MH17 still revolves about establishing the basic facts.
Especially facts that were ignored by official investigation. such as shelling the area by
Ukrainian forces after the crash, or too quick launch of "highly likely" campaign by Western MSM
(which now can be viewed as a strong suggestion that we deal with a false flag operation like was
the case with Litvinenko poisoning and Skripal poisoning ). Why the flight path of MH17 was
changes and differ from previous days also remain unclear (previous days they flue over Azov sea)
. Why Ukrainian air defense units was deployed in the area and were active that day is also
unclear. Rebels did not have any ir force. Visit of Brennan under fake name to Ukraine is another
interesting part of the story. And there are many questions like that.
The question of "que bono" is also an interesting one. As is the question why false flag
operation often happen when there are some maneuvers in the area like was the case with 811 and
Skripal cases (and there were NATO maneuvers in Ukrainian airspace). As one commenter aptly
observed " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional
act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the
maximum. "
Russia behaviour creates several questions as well: for example recent revelation of the
serial number of the Buk rocket (which so far did not leave any trace in the air that we can
refer too in pretty densely populated area). I saw horizontal trances of fragments that hit
airliner, which suggests air-to-air attack. There were phone of the part of the wing with
horizontal trace of the elements.
The stories about Ukraine Su-24 pilot who later committed suicide as well as about role
of oligarch Kolomoychenko also do not fit into official version. None of them testifies before
the commission, which signify the absence of the desire of the commission to gather facts that
might contradict predefined outcome.
As the USA refused to provide any evidence and Ukrainian authorities hide their evidence we
also have another "plausible" signs of a false flag operation directed on introduction of
sanctions against Russia.
In any case the following discussion is pretty educational as it rehashes many argument for
"Russian did not do it" point of view on this tragic accident.
Notable quotes:
"... The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. ..."
"... " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. " ..."
"... One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′. ..."
"... I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation. ..."
"... Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds. ..."
"... At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia". ..."
"... At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing. ..."
"... Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. ..."
"... At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft. ..."
"... "In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?" ..."
"... As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial). ..."
"... The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on. ..."
"... That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty. ..."
"... The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness. ..."
"... Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane. ..."
I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know
what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my
suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War
Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of
wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against
humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law. In November 2011 the
tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President
George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes
against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq. In
May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice
President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant
Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and
former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes,
specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the
International Court of Justice in the Hague. In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State
of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general
Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and
Shatila massacre.
Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur
War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are
little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.
@ALCvA I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do
I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my
suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War
Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of
wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against
humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.
Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur
War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little
known and were never reported by the mainstream media. I also have this in the book, with the
same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia,
I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional
structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been
the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some
point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional
act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the
maximum. "
The key sentence. Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on
vacation in the south of France. This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for
secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher
on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not
listen in'.
Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that
the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the
blame'.
It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust
propaganda. Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts. One might
also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept
11′.
I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key
suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the
investigation.
But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a
passenger plane ? Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.
Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key
facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's
report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by
him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch
Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on
the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like
someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling
case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and
his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments
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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international
relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in
Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.
Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther
Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme
conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention
the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump
requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost
Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked
about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense
by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early
September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists
signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in
contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a
military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his
presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes
happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about
Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He
explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around
1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as
main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had
the means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense.
The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT
countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown.
"only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later
he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile
from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy
Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In
fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine
President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by
a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands
for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign
Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that
time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was
approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and
warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR'
is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know
what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call.
Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more
than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human
shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were
flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil
aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described
this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft
can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia
would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Of course this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT.
And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer?
Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia
did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK.
A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines.
(not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an
aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near
MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK
missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except
MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known.
A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage
observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still
standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are
cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van
der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot
backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an
Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not
attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft --
that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on
commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an
impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine
had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little
harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site.
I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or
some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being
silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at
exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike --
AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the
simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military
people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is
what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that
plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction
of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical,
unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based
enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.
Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.
Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for
downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van
der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by
someone not named. " A weird compelling case.
They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised
here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it. Any normal criminal investigation
begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
I am not in the least convinced. The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the
west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions. About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to
have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide. If he did it, he
did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from
behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done. But a BUK flies vertical at
a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ? All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the
murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the
Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How
can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years
and two months later?"
That is extremely puzzling -- indeed, inexplicable -- if you believe that the object of
the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.
As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice
is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see,
that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western
governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government
declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and
trial).
The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their
servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour,
precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they
are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some
desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a
wicked soulless murderer, and so on.
That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly
repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes
them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.
Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage
is not only unsurprising -- it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely
unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.
An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic
investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.
On the MH17:
Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?
The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every
crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer
to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if
successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's
beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of
madness.
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that
would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or
an accident, a mistake, an error of judgment on the part of the warring combatants rather
than a deliberate act of murder.
Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as
well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under
wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the Ukraine with a Russian missile =
bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y
both are true.
Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with
regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns
of a fighter plane.
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly
states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he
does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like
"little green men" The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the
objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':
On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special
forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and
creating conditions for a referendum In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov
(Игорь
Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little
green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his
information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three
landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]
I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing
Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?
@Beefcake the Mighty Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are
known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of
the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative
commission here. Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the
black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were
handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July
2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this
version doesn't even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am
happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the
timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference
to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the
explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly
states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he
does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like
"little green men" Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and
Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them,
as they don't have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying
to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.
The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels
nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a
possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin "ordered"
the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.
Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.
I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret
services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too
many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all.
This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They
still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal
activity to Assange. BTW, that "investigation" already lasts for two years, with no end in
sight. Quite natural when the fox "investigates" its own depredations in the hen house.
However, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the "official" narrative pushed by
the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.
1. This "investigation" is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than
any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered.
Judging by its length and meager results, this "investigation" is simply a cover-up, pretty
clumsy at that.
2. If one discards the "evidence" from social media, which any self-respecting court of
law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund
"Bellingcat" are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.
3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very
characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly
Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary
chain of custody was not observed.
4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not
talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single
witness reported seeing that. Why?
5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then
displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?
6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never
presented in four years. Why?
7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot's cabin, visible on many photos, that
looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of
the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored.
BBC video was removed from their site. Why?
8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent
"conclusion" of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this
"conclusion". Curious, no?
Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia,
but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won't explain their
actions, though, as they don't want to anger very influential forces pushing a different
narrative.
To summarize, Roman dictum "cui bono" is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the
perpetrators.
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the
reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather
than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found
in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does
it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian
version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a
missile at MH17?
Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a
missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or
that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else
would have known and talked? You're confusing things here
The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by
retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and
noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire [incidentally the same
kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]
The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that
hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type
which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey
Specifically the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the
recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead
They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation
missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1
Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be
fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead
' it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the
bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M
warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile '
There is the problem right there The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is
'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile but 'but is known to be also installed on the
9M38′
The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey the right shows the response of the DSB
which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source page
132
' According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice,
both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead '
So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB
information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims and in this dilemma, the
DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source
And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the
bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the
Ukraine military industry
In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation
agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are
And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated
that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for
years having been long ago replaced by updated versions
@Wizard of Oz As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370.
Spare us your garbage. No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making
planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica
until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been
possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I
do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult
to control a modern plane from outside.
@Tulips I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from
its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If
true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given? It was ordered to fly
lower.
This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may
confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
As far as I know no explanation was ever given
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the
reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather
than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found
in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does
it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian
version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a
missile at MH17?
Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a
missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or
that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else
would have known and talked?
' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a
fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'
Again you are garbling known facts there was never any Russian 'satellite photo' it was in
fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time
The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch but curiously
it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues' apparently this has something to do
with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West
which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous
@jilles dykstra The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.
In this case, my estimate, twenty You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the
simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and
CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events
that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!
But, when you say this,
[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved,
and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely,
as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________
It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an
upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the
projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on
missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up
into the exhaust pipes )
The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.
Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest
entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the
difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage
if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there
isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.
It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody
has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. Ed there is nothing we can
'analyze' from a distance that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous
'Bellingcat'
The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels
to the West which they probably should not have done considering that they end up getting
blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands
The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations the
first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules
and we would presume it is professional you will note that they did not try to establish who
fired the shot [or shots]
That is what the ICAO rules state the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT
happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future
The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke actually citing Bellingcat
social media 'pictures' and such as 'evidence'
There is nothing that can be done about that it is clearly a kangaroo court
However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too I
have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies in all honesty, I would
say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the
findings are whaat they say they are
But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here to really find out
what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone those actual pieces need to be expertly
examined
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events
that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!
But, when you say this,
[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved,
and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely,
as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________
It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an
upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the
projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on
missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up
into the exhaust pipes )
The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.
Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest
entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the
difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage
if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there
isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.
It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody
has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. I am not sure how many "accidental"
deaths or "murders in the course of botched robbery" (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can
be covered up.
I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces
were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead
(alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there
should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of
passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public
that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be
connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I'd love to
hear from a pro not paid by either side.
In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian
flight was Zero Hedge.
On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It
also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.
@Anonymous Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects
which the major media never does.
As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military
unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a
war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290
on-board. Accidents happen.
However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war
zone ,
This is exactly my conclusion.
I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.
Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months
British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around
area where MH17 was brought down
As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern
Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has
emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.
A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for
months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some
time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China
Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route -- which is the most commonly used
between Europe and Asia -- for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous
flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they
had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the
Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away,"
Quintana said.
However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war
zone ,...
This is exactly my conclusion.
I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.
Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months
British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around
area where MH17 was brought down
As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern
Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has
emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.
A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for
months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some
time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China
Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route - which is the most commonly used
between Europe and Asia - for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous
flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they
had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the
Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away,"
Quintana said.
FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9EWwNbSVE
This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile
system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been
bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used
civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:
Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very
convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of 'Buk missile unit'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw
BREAKING - MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sviL113eOU
MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb9Axg4DaeY
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very
convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith'
in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting
out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable =
substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking
gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been
stopped by that smoking gun.
This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the
'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :
PeterS October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander.
Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я
Ñвой
ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS,
identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK,
witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The
crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not
shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu
154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the
question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they
accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under
control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists
with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR. Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the
" shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie
or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be
used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.
As I say, get a grip. We -- those with properly functioning intellects -- know which
components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17
shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters
which fit. rgds
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he
would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch
Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a
presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference
between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint
Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and
leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the
DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not
named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and
his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
What happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments
Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international
relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in
Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.
Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther
Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme
conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention
the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump
requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost
Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked
about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense
by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early
September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists
signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in
contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a
military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his
presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes
happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about
Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He
explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around
1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main
suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the
means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense.
The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT
countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown.
"only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A
minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the
separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile
launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In
fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine
President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by
a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands
for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign
Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that
time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was
approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and
warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR'
is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know
what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call.
Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more
than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human
shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying
at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil
aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described
this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft
can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia
would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT.
And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer?
Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia
did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A
BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not
knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near
MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK
missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except
MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known.
A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage
observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still
standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are
cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van
der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot
backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air
missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by
another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft
would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial
airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or
detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed
in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule
out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some
suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of
Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains
exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one
would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of
damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous
end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this,
would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since
Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck
in Ukraine than they were letting on.
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr
Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific
and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise
to a position of Professor.
Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.
Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for
downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17
Recent Comments
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van
der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:
"Radar is able to detect two different objects."
Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially
two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the
altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of
MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a
primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would
be available.
I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I
also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available
to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a
blunder or covering up a false flag.
I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag
or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the
MH-17 Tragedy."
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he
would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch
Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a
presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference
between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint
Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and
leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the
DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not
named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and
his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
What happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments
Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international
relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in
Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.
Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther
Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme
conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention
the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump
requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost
Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked
about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense
by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early
September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists
signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in
contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a
military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his
presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes
happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about
Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He
explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around
1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main
suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the
means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense.
The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT
countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown.
"only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A
minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the
separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile
launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In
fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine
President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by
a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands
for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign
Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that
time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was
approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and
warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR'
is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know
what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call.
Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more
than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human
shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying
at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil
aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described
this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft
can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia
would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT.
And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer?
Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia
did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A
BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not
knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near
MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK
missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except
MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known.
A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage
observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still
standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are
cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van
der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot
backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air
missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by
another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft
would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial
airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or
detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed
in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule
out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some
suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of
Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains
exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one
would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of
damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous
end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this,
would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since
Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck
in Ukraine than they were letting on.
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr
Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific
and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise
to a position of Professor.
Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.
Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for
downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17
Recent Comments
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van
der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:
"Radar is able to detect two different objects."
Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially
two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the
altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of
MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a
primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would
be available.
I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I
also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available
to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a
blunder or covering up a false flag.
I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag
or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the
MH-17 Tragedy."
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to
have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't
even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk
doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know
that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big
and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian
or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of
bullshit.
@jilles dykstra It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.
"MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian
airspace. This is close to the 'optimum' altitude," the airline said.
"However, an aircraft's altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the
ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic
control to fly at 33,000 feet."
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about
something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.
It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was
apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a
missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts
might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't
seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with
canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some
cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped
down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag
operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is
as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious
weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart
with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast.
Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most
probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could
have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was
cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research
institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the
likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been
able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the
BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I
don't know whether that has any legs.
1. Der.
2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely
[premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went
something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'
3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.
4.
An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no
'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The
task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you
not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et
al..
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that
the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians
had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'
there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of
machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other
evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)
what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up,
and include the main suspect: Ukraine -- in the "investigation" with veto authority over any
conclusions.
When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control
the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.
The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing
more.
Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.
Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane
underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they
were saying (there were subtitles) but their non
July 10, 2018 at 4:59 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from
the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the
pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was
denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air
traffic control to deal with doesn't leave much reason to treat air traffic control as
being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual
interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day,
but it is an important detail. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the
destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against
BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the
plane.
In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.
@jilles dykstra Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.
The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after
sanctions were allowed.
The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never
been asked, not even now.
As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was
shot down. You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies
was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who
designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept
lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years
already.
2005, as per the Guardian
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after
the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister,
Mahathir Mohamad, '
2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.
2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.
2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.
2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]
2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners.
mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air .
[tip of an iceberg]
From these facts alone,
Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are
enemy actions.
As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once . one stone killing three birds ?
@Wizard of Oz My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have
done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard - not a good look if one doesn't
want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to
accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both
logic and fact on an important isssue.
Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above
Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a
reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There's your logical error nailed in case I
need to spell it out).
As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn't the DSB
report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the
day was 160!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880
If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.
** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider
me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert
witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun
:-)
' Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own
expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination.
For fun '
Sure thing, Perry Mason LOL btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard
Spamfest' nice work
For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon
Here's what that BBC article you linked to says
' The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day -- 160
planes flew over the region '
Now here is the rest of the story for those who are actually qualified commercial
pilots, that sentence is meaningless yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that
day a region more than half the size of Germany only a small fraction of which region is
the actual conflict area
Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the
country
Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV] comparable to the size of the entire
neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR
covering its entire territory]
Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors only the most eastern one being
the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself
here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk
Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area
notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it
The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary and the small black lines are
the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic
Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including
the airway designations
The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was
flying the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down here is the
illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity
So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine
and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport so saying that 160 flights flew
over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this
actual route ie airway L980 big difference
Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman
audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything
Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and its
normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south
There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the
Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft] and I will be glad to
explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested as
this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully
understandable to the layman
As for our friend Wizard may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself
here
@Wizard of Oz "Simple(st) solution"!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had
done - surely for certain - what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus
supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?
You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward
Tennessee. Life is simple. "Cui bono" is the key. The rest is hot air.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html
So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement ?
' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a
fighter firing a missile at MH17 '
Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over
to the DSB by the Russian govt but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian
media and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown
Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever
And just to put this in perspective the very same source you pointed to says the Russian
news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one
'George Bilt' not from Russian sats
So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo
the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone so your representation of
this on this thread is clearly false
As for Higgins and Bellingcat we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished
MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the
Pentagon an 'idiot'
also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol
Hmm interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate
of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media and that he
would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he
would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch
Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a
presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference
between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint
Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary
and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out
that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by
someone not named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and
his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
What happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments
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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international
relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in
Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.
Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther
Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme
conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention
the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump
requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of
Joost Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he
talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the
nonsense by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised
early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance
journalists signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7
in contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a
military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his
presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes
happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about
Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He
explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around
1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main
suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the
means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is
nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation
all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto
right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown.
"only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A
minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the
separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile
launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In
fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine
President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down
by a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands
for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for
Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation.
At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards
he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him
information and warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK
TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does
not know what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone
call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far
more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the
accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human
shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were
flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as
civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier
described this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming
aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia
would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT.
And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer?
Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia
did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A
BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines.
(not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an
aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near
MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK
missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile
except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile
are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of
damage observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still
standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are
cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van
der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot
backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be
flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air
missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by
another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft
would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial
airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or
detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had
landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder
to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've
seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some
combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly,
remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the
spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce
the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous,
instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd
know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me
convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a
smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of
Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical,
unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based
enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.
Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.
Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for
downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17
Recent Comments
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van
der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be
a respected professor from a respected university
' showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot' talk
about chutzpah
Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight' yet he is foaming at the
mouth all over this thread pretty pathetic
As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued
by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which
military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this
confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?
1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should
discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.
The facts matter, but not to this writer. "If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then
that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is
inconclusive."
-- let's try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
The author wrote: "Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO
unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over
Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight
MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for
sure."
The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the
benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have
resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine,
and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East
and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with
this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
'"All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely
to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all
be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our
[personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the
Kol Nidrei.
This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda
against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no
principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach -- "Let our [personal]
vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths" -- to
international law and the judicial system at large.
The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few
decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete
irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite
imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible
criminal acts of Ukrainians?
Why has an expert in selling the ladies' underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a
principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The
Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King's College London admire the
ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and
true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for
the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide
the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, " the F-16
that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase
"
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking
about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking
about.
It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was
apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a
missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur
enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which
you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything
to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the
pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some
cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped
down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false
flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is
as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious
weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came
apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial
blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most
probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could
have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he
was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev
research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it
ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative
but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that
the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians
had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
' Nothing to do with radar '
Sorry kid like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any
third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar
data I mentioned
This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not
usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said
here is a Dutch news report from 2017
And the google translation from the Dutch
' Kiev -- Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators
investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.
The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international
standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.
"More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he
says.
Russia had handed over the data -- shortly after the publication of a report in
September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of
Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight '
I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and
obfuscation
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile
= bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y
https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html
Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute
zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string
Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.
@Mr. Hack The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the
objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':
On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special
forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people
and creating conditions for a referendum...In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor
Kasatonov (Игорь
Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little
green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his
information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three
landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]
I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing
Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous
statement?
Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia's
Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the
ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a
greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a
sample size of 1200:
Yes No Undecided
2009 67% 1 5% 18%
2010 66% 9% 25%
2011 66% 14 % 20%
Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that
would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved,
or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants
rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up
ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is
what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There
was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking
credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to
rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. Since when
the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"
@Wizard of Oz OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here "the highest sources
from the Russian Federation".
I have answered this above. You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are
"ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking
about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking
about.
It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was
apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a
missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur
enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which
you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything
to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the
pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some
cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped
down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false
flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is
as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious
weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came
apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial
blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most
probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could
have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he
was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev
research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it
ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative
but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that
the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians
had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of
Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced
propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.
are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?
or,
are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv
was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy
seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its
expansion?
And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about
'assassinated journalists' and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas
being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a
temper tantrum.
@Wizard of Oz You seem to be clever enough when you try hard... Do you understand why I
say your use of "cui bono" is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy? The US
propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper
Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and
the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even
before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.
@Wizard of Oz So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of
technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary
logic.
If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something
suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34
or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly
capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing
circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow
MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level - or air traffic control might have been
bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine "I wish
these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of
us".Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).
If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent
that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so - or is the commercial pilot going to
tell us in detail how that is wrong?
' If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something
suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or
35,000 feet instead of 33,000 '
You have that completely backwards it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to
FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off
The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330 the
reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]
The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by
Malaysian that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing
performance handbook this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric
conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc often the weather predictions at
the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there
There is nothing unusual about any of this ATC was simply directing the crew to go to
the altitude it had filed in its plan the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did
not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further so it has nothing to do with any
possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude
[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was
all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with
that...completely wrong]
Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern
Ukraine not 'six or seven'
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very
convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting
any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you
are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable =
substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable
'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would
have been stopped by that smoking gun.
This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the
'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :
PeterS October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander.
Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part
"Я Ñвой
ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS,
identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK,
witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes).
The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not
shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev
Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was
the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if
they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under
control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of
separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR. Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who
provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in
or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the
empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable
response.
As I say, get a grip. We - those with properly functioning intellects - know which
components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17
shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters
which fit. rgds Fake news from the BNDhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany)
, so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK
system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:
Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its
website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the
BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military
unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating
information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk
Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian
separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of
the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by
terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air
Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration,
there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for
Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the
information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from
information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1
(SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the
original document.
I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be
of interest to you:
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der
Spiegel article
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html
might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American,
pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters
about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/
which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic
towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to
pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased
and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
@Anon OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if
anyone bothered), partisan guff? "tendentious, highly contestable, partisan "
Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was "highly contestable" and
"partisan?"
1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the
Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? -- Try!
2. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about this quote? -- "All [personal] vows we
are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom
Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and
abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges
and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol
Nidrei "was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the
start of the Jewish new year. In "modern" Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and
has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the
commencement of Judaism's holiest yearly event of Passover."
3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings
of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly
insists?
4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite
images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/–
; What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about the US refusal to provide the
evidence?
5. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about naming Elliot Higgins an ignoramus and
Russophobe?
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/06/a-to-guide-top-anti-russia-think-tanks-us-funds/
-- You are welcome to enlighten the reader.
@Rurik there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious*
evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of
other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)
what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence
up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine - in the "investigation" with veto authority over
any conclusions.
When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you
control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.
The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing
more.
Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.
I'll
bet that those Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns
to advance their plans. A special frisson.
Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns
no doubt
somewhere else here there was a discussion about how the Zionists are upset with the
Germans for being too passive, (after generations of being demonized as congenitally
militant).. but now they want the Germans to get riled to go kill Arabs for them.
Neo-Nazis killing Russians in Ukraine must certainly give them a 'special frisson' like
no other.
now how to get American goyim to kill Arabs and Persians to kill American goyim and
Germans to kill Arabs and Poles to kill Russians and English to kill Persians and Sunnis to
kill Shias and Americans to kill Sunnis and Shias and
no wonder they were dancing and high-fiving each other on 9/11
'...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something
suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or
35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
You have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to
climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking
off...
The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at
FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...
The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by
Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the
Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with
atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather
predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...
There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to
the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC
did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with
any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...
[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was
all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with
that...completely wrong]...
Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern
Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...
So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of
words when there is no useful point to be advanced.
@AnonFromTN The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as
intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of
the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty
were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again. You don't know the
"intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire
theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from
Russia including commander, codes etc.:
Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its
website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the
BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military
unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating
information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk
Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian
separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of
the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by
terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air
Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration,
there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for
Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the
information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from
information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1
(SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the
original document.
I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be
of interest to you:
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der
Spiegel article
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html
might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American,
pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters
about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of
Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it
also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might
not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
-
http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166
"I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes
etc"
Sure. Mr. Higgins is also pretty sure that BUK system/launcher came from Russia including
commander, codes etc. All because of his incomparable expertise.
Here is an opinion of the highly competent and highly principled Robert Perry: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on
controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times,
The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of
satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an "
amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud ." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has
constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.
More for FKA Max: "Higgins had stumbled into a potentially profitable (in terms of media
exposure and possibly pledged funding) publishing venture. His output has been nothing if
not consistent, viz: Consistent with what one would expect from promoters of the
Anglo-US-NATO Official Narratives of geo-politics and the War on Terror, but done in a
slipshod and blatantly partisan fashion that those who quote him (the
Commercially-controlled media) are wary of claiming their own "
Enjoy the company:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
"Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company
to create Bellingcat, a celebrated internet blog that specializes in using open-source
information to blame Russia for every crime against humanity -- real or imagined --
committed so far this century."
https://www.sott.net/article/388086-NATO-stooge-and-vulgar-twat-Eliot-Higgins-has-go-to-message-for-critics-Suck-my-balls
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to
have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I
can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. No doubt you were called in on a
military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later
abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.
@Beefcake the Mighty Pot, meet kettle. Asshole. That's not really fair. FB quite
clearly is very knowledgable on matters of aviation and aerospace and has written lengthy
informative comments that have been praised by many readers whilst the Wiz is seen by most
readers here as being on the same low level as Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and such like,
having zero credibility and an obvious purpose here to confuse and obfuscate.
@Wizard of Oz You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa
loquitur. Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a
lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.
This site has a marvelous history publish even the insane comments, but credibly enough
also many well founded and reasonable ones. The worst comments imo are those from
revisionists, flat earthers and neo nazis.
On this article, I think it matters most to just ask: Qui bono; who benefited?
Major players on the world arena do stupid things, but there is always an agenda. And thing
do not happen by chance, nothing ever did, history has proven that. Minor players have to
be satisfied with the agenda presented to them by their overlords.
In this "peculiar incident" a airliner what downed in some way. Both Major players have
been "peculiar" reluctant to pursue the case (In copmparison to their usual MO), Russian
maybe a bit more openly rejecting the responsibility.
The minor vassal states hollering their masters script as usual. But who benefited ? Well
the Ukrainians did initially benefit, but squandered everything away, a corrupt kleptocrat
oligarchy as it is, so their final gains are worth nil, as neither IMF, NATO, EU and the US
sees them as a "partner anymore, just as a basketcase of open thievery.
What is interesting are the Russian/US claims of satelite imagery, radio tapes, ect,ect
that they have not published, any of them .. Hmmmmmmn They agreed to this , but why ?
Because one Dirty hand holds another, they are probably blackmailing each other, with stuff
too sensitive to the public.
I have not got the fantasy, to think that the Russians did it or that they gave that kind
of weaponry to a bunch of not adequately trained rebels. My fingers are pointed at Ukraine,
I figure the reason the Russians dont pursue this line of thinking is that they do not
wish, a total ciwil war on their borders (violent break up of Ukraine), nobody else wants
it, and that is why we are going nowhere.
And please, please! Anything Eliot Higgins has endorsed is false! Anything NATO funds is
hardly non partisan or impartial, same goes Syrian watch thing in London cellar, who knows
all!!
These guys have discredited citizen journalism incredibly, they are indeed tools of the
Evil Empire.
But still, we think that there is MORE to the relationship between anti-smoking campaigns
and alleged "aliens" - something sinister. The reader may wish to read our page on Diet
and Health Related Questions as well as the Wave series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk from
which the following has been extracted
[...] Now, ... did you notice that it says that "animals use similar substances
[acetylcholine antagonists or ANTI-nicotine] to paralyze their prey? We have to wonder
about the oft reported conditions of paralysis associated with "alien interactions" and
the almost rabid attack on smoking in our society.
- http://www.sott.net/signs/anti-anti-smoking.htm Archived link :
http://archive.is/c9JIX
Q&A with Laura Knight-Jadczyk -- Skepticism in Research
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiBiUjiyddY
Good information here: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/
MH17 -- Russian GRU Commander 'Orion' Identified as Oleg Ivannikov
Thanks again, annamaria , for introducing me to all this new information and all
these new sources and resources:
http://www.unz.com/article/revisiting-litvinenko-what-really-happened/#comment-2401541
I highly appreciate it, even if we don't agree on the narrative and conclusions,
etc.
Never heard about FKA Max, but have a great respect for the late Robert Parry:
https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/30/the-berkeley-tribute-to-robert-parry/
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on
controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times,
The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of
satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an "amateurish
[and] anti-Russian fraud." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a
source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine." " https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
I have a great respect for Unz Review and Consortiumnews but a zero respect for the
thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council that employs Higgins as "expert" -- along with another
"expert," the fraudster Dm. Alperovitch of CrowdStrike fame: https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/crowdstrikes-alperovitch-is-a-vicious-fraud/
"American officials say the U.S. government has had extensive contacts with a range of
anti-Assad groups in Washington, Europe and inside Syria. To give momentum to that
opposition, the U.S. is giving serious consideration to the election-monitoring scheme
proposed in the document, according to several officials. The proposal has not yet been
approved, in part because of questions over whether the Syrian elections will be delayed or
even cancelled. But one U.S. official familiar with the proposal said: "You are forced to
wonder whether we are now trying to destabilize the Syrian government."
Some critics in Congress and the Administration say that such a plan, meant to secretly
influence a foreign government, should be legally deemed a "covert action," which by law
would then require that the White House inform the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill.
Some in Congress would undoubtedly raise objections to this secret use of publicly
appropriated funds to promote democracy."
-- Who needs democracy in the US when the "only democracy in the ME" has a flaming desire
to break the functioning Middle Eastern states?
"Neoconservative [ziocon] Think Tank Influence on US Policies:"
http://historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire
theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from
Russia including commander, codes etc.:
Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its
website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the
BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military
unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating
information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk
Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian
separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of
the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by
terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air
Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration,
there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for
Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the
information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from
information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1
(SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the
original document.
I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be
of interest to you:
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der
Spiegel article
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html
might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American,
pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters
about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of
Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it
also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might
not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
@Wizard of Oz Another shonk. For your trivial point.....The SMH is, with The Age, a
shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US
propaganda.
For your substantial deficiency.... Are you arguing that this photograph proves
something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not
clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.
More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point
out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message.
Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something
which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.
The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda
Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?
Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia
as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values
Me: Haw #1
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014
Me: Lie #1
and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17
Me: Lie #2
the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which
caused more damage this week
Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation
The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is
significant
Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation
Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict
Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the
FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..
Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental
orifice so as to see no daylight.
@jilles dykstra I also have wondered if hurting Malaysia was a secundary goal.
Soros indeed is hated in Malaysia, they think that he permanently increased the cost of
living by speculating against the Malaysian currency Cui bono ?
First the geopolitical angle, namely fukus decades long effort to stir up shit in SCS,
setting Asean/jp against China
'Located on the geostrategic Malacca Strait, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim
oil-producing nation with a "Look East" policy allying itself with Japan and China. Last
year the Malaysian and Chinese governments established an economic alliance, which includes
Asian access to world oil reserves. In the eyes of Washington and its allies, these are
sufficient grounds to treat Kuala Lumpur as an adversary .
Even though the Malaysian police force has cooperated closely with the US Embassy in the
war on terror, which led to arrests of top-ranking Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, that is not
good enough. The late Moammar Gaddhafi of Libya and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad also
aided Washington in post-911 anti-terrorism, and look where it got them. It is not enough
to be a friend of America. For a leader to survive, he must be a groveling yes-man, a
political slave - and never mind America's long-forgotten principles of sovereignty or
self-determination.' [1]
The main aim was to wreck KL/Beijing honeymoon, drove Malaysia into the anti Chinese
posse.
KL/Beijing relation did go down a few notches post mh370
Meanwhile, fukus always try biggest bang for the buck and go for multi prong
attacks.
The other objective could be to liquidate Chinese chip engineers.
'Among the 200-plus passengers bound for Beijing, the target group for the hijack is
narrowing down to 20 tech employees working for Freescale Semiconductors, based in Austin,
Texas. Among these programmers and systems designers are 12 Malaysians [ethnic Chinese ?]
and 8 citizens of mainland China.' [2]
Then , Soros could be part of the caper, exacting his pound of fresh from
Malayia. [3]
2005, as per the Guardian...
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after
the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister,
Mahathir Mohamad,...'
2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.
2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.
2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.
2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]
2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners. ...
mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air....
[tip of an iceberg]
From these facts alone,
Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are
enemy actions.
As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once.... one stone killing three birds ?
Elementary, Watson ! Hmm
For Washington, surely this must be another one for Malaysia's chart sheet, another
score to settle !
2004,
The SMH sneeringly opined
' Malaysia puts US in its place over offer to police busy sea lane
Malaysia has rejected a plan by the United States to deploy marines and special forces
troops to counter potential terrorist attacks against international shipping in the Straits
of Malacca, one of the world's busiest sea lanes.
The commander of US forces in the Asia-Pacific region, Admiral Thomas Fargo, last week
revealed a plan to use troops aboard high speed vessels to police the straits, which run
between peninsular Malaysia and the Indonesian island of Sumatra.
But in a rebuff, Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister, Najib Tun Razak, said at the weekend
that control of the straits was the sovereign prerogative of Malaysia and Indonesia, and
US military involvement was not welcome.
Grrrr..
uncle must be straining at his leash over that one.
BUt then you cant keep a good man down for long, uncle sham is now coming into the
Malacca Straits in a big way, FON and all that jazz.
where's Najib who gave uncle the finger ?
p.s.
SMH, The Age, The Australian, The conversation all declared me persona non
grata.
@Quartermaster Cui Bono? Russia. It was a Buk and it was a newer model that Ukraine
does not have. There is footage of a group of "rebels" (actually Russian invaders) walking
through the debris field saying, with surprise and regret, "we shot down an airliner."
If you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is
unconscionable.
The legacy of McCain: http://www.voltairenet.org/article201925.html
-- A traitor, warmonger, and coward.
"John McCain is an elected US Senator, and is also president of one of the branches of the
National Endowment for Democracy, one of the secret services of the " Five Eyes "
(USA-UK-Australia-Canada-New Zealand). On 22 February [2011], he was in Lebanon, where he
tasked the transport of weapons in Syria to the Haririst deputy Okab Sakr. He also
journeyed to Ersal in order to establish a future rear base for the jihadists.
On Friday 18 March [2011], an Islamist demonstration was staged at the exit of the Al-Omari
mosque. The crowd chanted " Allah, Syria, liberty " -- The term should be understood in the
sense given by the Muslim Brotherhood, that of "the freedom to apply charia law". During
this demonstration, shots were fired both against the police and also against the
demonstrators, without anyone knowing where they were coming from. It is probable, as we
have seen in Venezuela, Libya, and other countries [see Kievan pitch 2014], that the
shooters were from a third force tasked with creating an atmosphere of civil war and
preparing a foreign invasion .
Senator McCain admitted that he was in permanent contact with the heads of the jihadists
(including the commanders of Daesh) Confronted with a recording of one of his telephone
conversations, Okab Sakr admitted that he had supervised the transfers of weapons to
Syria."
-- The "war on terra" has been very profitable for MIC; the war has produced conflicts in
the Middle East, where the real terrorists became the best buddies of the CIA/McCain and
Israeli.
In Ukraine, Brennan (the CIA), Kagans (ziocons), and McCain have become the main promoters
and supporters of neo-Nazi. (Hey nazi-hunters, where are you?)
The energetic "Quartermaster" could continue, ad nauseum, to repeating the amazing
discoveries made by Eliot Higgins about BUK in Ukraine and WMD in Syria (Higgins is a joy
of the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council), but these "discoveries" cannot obscure the
facts of arms supply to both ISIS and neo-Nazis by the CIA, Israel, and by the
obedient vassals from NATO.
In Ukraine, the banderites have made a pact with ziocons in a hope that by using the US
influence, the banderites could establishing a banderite state. Dream on. Expect to be
crushed by ziocons, and sooner than later.
Whereas the White Helmets' tales and Skripal affair' stupidities are hailed by MSM, the
truth can be found on the alternative sites.
@FKA Max Even RT reported that the BND report was never intended to be
conclusive but mainly "evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility
and probability" and that the Der Spiegel and other media outlets' reporting about
it was inaccurate and misleading:
https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/ Archived link :
https://web.archive.org/web/20170514120701/https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/
The Russian embassy in Berlin received an official response to note #3693 from October 27
regarding Germany's Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND intelligence agency) President Gerhard
Schindler's allegations that local militia in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysia
Airlines flight in July.
" The media interpretation of the report of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND)
president delivered to the Bundestag Committee overseeing intelligence activities on
October 8 is incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context, " the note says.
[...]
German diplomats insisted that the BND's analysis and evaluation was based " on
information obtained from intelligence and from open sources, " which included data
from the interim report of the Dutch investigation commission conducting the inquiry. The
report delivered by Schindler " evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to
their plausibility and probability, " the note said.
The ministry stressed that according to the decision of the International Civil
Aviation Association (ICAA), investigation of the MH17 flight crash was handed over to
Dutch authorities, authorized to exclusively deliver all information on the
issue.
RD Insight: Reason's for Putin's high approval rating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTKB4th1Rjg
Alexey Levinson, social research director at Levada Analytical Center talks about the
reasons for Russian President Vladimir Putin's high approval rating.
"open sources"
-- Eliot Higgins as the main provider? The scoundrel has zero scientific training, zero
technical training, zero engineering training, and zero training in chemistry. Eliot
Higgins was ridiculed by the experts in all of the above fields of knowledge. But the
zionized Atlantic Council loves, loves, loves Higgins. Do you know why, "FKA Max?"
"The media interpretation" -- You mean, "interpretations" by MSM? Cannot stop polluting the
Unz forum with the presstituting propaganda, "FKA Max?"
"Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence" by By Robert Parry
"In a letter to Kerry dated Jan. 5, 2016, Thomas J. Schansman, Quinn's father, noted
Kerry's remarks at a press conference on Aug. 12, 2014, when the Secretary of State said
about the Buk anti-aircraft missile suspected of downing the plane: "We saw the take-off.
We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this airplane disappear from the radar
screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons
have come from.
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or
identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the
SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a
defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
The analysts' uncertainty meshed somewhat with what I [Robert Parry] had been told by a
source who had been briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts shortly after the shoot-down
about what they had seen in high-resolution satellite photos , which they said
showed what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have
fired the missile.
The source who spoke to me several times after receiving additional briefings about
advances in the investigation said that as the U.S. analysts gained more insights into the
MH-17 shoot-down from technical and other sources, they came to believe the attack was
carried out by a r ogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line
Ukrainian oligarch. [See, for instance, Consortiumnews.com's "Flight 17 Shoot-Down
Scenario Shifts" and "The Danger of an MH-17 Cold Case."]
Do you know this oligarch, "FKA Max?" The Ukrainian/Israeli thug that has been a "pillar of
Ukrainian Jewish community?"
Have you heard about Awan affair, the greatest breach of the US cybersecurity? There was
certain Israel-firster involved in the crime (she was also instrumental in rigging the Dems
nomination for POTUS). No persecution.
Have you heard about the Wiesenthal Center of Nazi-hunters? Not a peep from the Center with
regard to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The revival has involved certain Kagans family,
hence the absence of the "peeps."
So please, take your Higginsian revelations about Ukraine and Syria to some other place
where they will be appreciated. You know, the zioconish NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Guardian, and
likes.
@Anonymous "Nothing ever happens by chance". On the face of it that looks absurd so let
me try and tease out your meaning.
May I assume that you don't mean that everything in the human world happens because at
least one human actually wanted it to and caused it to happen?
So let's try with whoever fired a BUK missile which brought down a civil airliner
(a) just accidentally firing when he or another was just using the nearest available plane
to centre the aiming mechanism
(b) the intended target was one plane flying near another but, for technical reasons, the
missile ended up destroying the wrong plane.
Etc.
Kindly explain your "nothing ever happens by chance" so your readers know what you mean by
it. What I meant specifically is when you take events that we ponder in history, there
alway seems to an unrlying story that explains the event. An instigation that is plausibly
the trigger, causing the event to happen.
The murder in Sarajevo, it was not a lone Anarchist, it was a planned assassination,
carried out by a nation state through proxy. But at the surface, it was just a nut job. But
it was a thoroughly thought out terror plot, meant to increase tensions to the brink of war
and it succeeded, albeit the outcome in the end, historically was dire.
Of course accidents happen and brash foolishness also plays a part, but often things are
planned and often enough they backfire.
@Anonymous Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at
ankles why not occasionally put some effort into contributing to the substance and at least
answer other commenters points.
Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles at
least answer other commenters points
1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one
cannot contest arguments based upon false premises -- like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH
is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.
3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity
for falsehood, "
4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but
a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui
bono?
5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly
accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to
attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All*
present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.
Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all
non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]
Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of
and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any
'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in
lemma 2.
Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b)
silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as
emphatically as I can -- in my own 'style.'
Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending
victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:
FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the
Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.
a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches
add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies
The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the
handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze
propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e.
trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'
Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the
MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed
on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a '
*circumstantial* ' argument.
We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down.
The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that
way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see
Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion
hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F
-- k the EU!" If the cap fits
The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system
fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being
pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.
Source:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash
Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK
MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later
Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild
article following below:
DSA - May 25, 2018
You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the
level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to
be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian
airliners.
Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der
Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies
entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.
Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17
Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.
Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die
Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging
bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17
abschoss.
Google Translate translation:
However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of
closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds
to about 16 100 meters.
The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before
the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.
Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on
the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the
service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.
Los Angeles Times: "U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was
mistake." http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or
identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the
SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a
defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
-- Do you understand that the US has "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what
looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the
missile?" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
-- Again, FKA Max, who is that Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch whom you are so strenuously
protecting? " the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue
element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch."
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE
-- Cheerleading for ziocons, FKA Max, with all your Kol Nidrei enthusiasm?
The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system
fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being
pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.
Source:
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash
Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK
MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later
Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild
article following below:
DSA - May 25, 2018
You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the
level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to
be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian
airliners.
Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der
Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies
entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.
Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17
Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.
Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die
Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging
bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17
abschoss.
Google Translate translation:
However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of
closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds
to about 16 100 meters.
The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before
the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.
Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on
the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the
service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.
@FKA MaxBellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence
versus
Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay
e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the
battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what
looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the
information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel
responsibility." -
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... "
Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear
company to create Bellingcat "
http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311
... Now think about that!
annamaria ,
what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber
discussions.
Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share,
correct?
Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?
Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?
In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which
people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive
ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the
inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the
self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their
actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability
incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or
especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. -
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14
Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and
economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't
believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A
very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:
The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are
the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a
non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno
and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia
(then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just
to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature
on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why
Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
Hey, FKA Max, you have been
polluting this forum with the Atlantic Council stuff.
Higgins "investigative" journalism, including his hapless manipulation of photographs from
Ukraine, has been debunked by the real experts. Google the debunking yourself.
-- You have been shilling for ziocons, FKA Max. Whether you are upset with the
banderites lack of success in the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) or you are just
another unhappy aliya in Israel, your "research" shows desperation. Anyway, you are not
taken seriously.
@FKA MaxBellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence
versus
Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay
e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the
battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what
looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the
information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel
responsibility." -
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... "
Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear
company to create Bellingcat "
http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311
... Now think about that!
annamaria ,
what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber
discussions.
Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share,
correct?
Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?
Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?
In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which
people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive
ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the
inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the
self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their
actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability
incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or
especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. -
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14
Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and
economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't
believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A
very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:
The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are
the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a
non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno
and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia
(then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just
to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature
on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why
Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
Your attempts at putting the
courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an
ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.
"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence
by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by
meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has
challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had
provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in
Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in
the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras
cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations,
intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."
-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I
knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd
learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic.
Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight:
Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins
" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special
interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various
initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares
Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American
public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization
has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking"
the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been
resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple
media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking
were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in
what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions."
https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are
well-known promoters of falsehoods.
Other than the fisherman in Maldives who saw a low flying airliner .
It there's any evidence at all it'd prolly reside in the Pine Gap log somewhere.
But what can we do if Oz says we cant have it ?
In civvy case, a court can order a building owner to hand out its cctv tapes to assist a
murder investigation,.
On the international level, its entirely different matter cuz the 5lies are above any
international law, never mind their constant bleating about a ' rule based
international order'.
Its the law of jungle .backed by NATO.
Who's gonna issue a search warrant to NATO ?
Then again, in a civvy murder case, a beneficiary of the deceased would never be
appointed as investigator.
BUt this is exactly what happened in the mh370 case where the Malaysian police was '
assisted' by CIA/FBI !
Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop !
Judge, prosecutor and executioner all in one.
No wonder the Malaysian police chief was driven to moan aloud ,
" I doubt this case will ever be solved' !
P.S.
I rarely if ever sit thru a video , preferring to read its transcript.
But I recommend this video if you'r interested in the mh370 case, its worth your time.
Interview with Mathias Chang, top aide to Dr Mahathir,
" added elements such as humanitarian intervention "
There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask
It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument
to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.
@annamaria Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the
same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.
"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence
by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by
meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has
challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had
provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in
Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in
the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras
cocaine trafficking in the US scandal."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations,
intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."
-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I
knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd
learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic.
Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight:
Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins
" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special
interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various
initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares
Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American
public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization
has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking"
the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been
resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple
media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking
were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in
what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions."
https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are
well-known promoters of falsehoods.
Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum
Me: Yes. 'It' is known as a troll [ *it* is un-sexed; especially when trolls align with
'the great Satan' and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they
de-humanise themselves.]
My recommendation: I ** 3 = Identify, inform, ignore. rgds
As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued
by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which
military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this
confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?
1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should
discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.
The facts matter, but not to this writer. The author clearly set forth the parameters of
his article at the beginning of the article.
The article is not a "whodunnit." The article is an analysis of cui, in the end,
bono.
How was the incident used to further an agenda.
That is what the author said he would do and that is what he did.
So your complaint is beside the point.
. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the
civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention.
This analysis is so biased and inaccurate that it has no basis to hang
together with a coherent conclusion. This quote is a good example of the author's
inarticulate manner in presenting his own completely fantasized (but original) gibberish.
Ukraine trying to draw Moscow into the civil war directly? Why not just further this line
of nonsense and declare that Ukraine invited the 'little green men' into the Crimea to have
it annexed by Russia too? :-) Troll alert!
No gibberish in this article.
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that
would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved,
or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants
rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up
ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is
what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There
was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking
credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to
rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. "Sorry, but
this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy
mythology."
I don't think the author says anything about false flags.
He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
Read the article before commenting!
@Skeptikal " added elements such as humanitarian intervention "
There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask
It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument
to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n12/pankaj-mishra/the-mask-it-wears
@annamaria You have been identified as a polluter of Atlantic Council (zioconish)
persuasion.
FKA Max, a representative of Elliot Higgins on Unz forum. Speaking of little poofter Eliot
Higgins
Here is a bit of info most people probably don't know the website bellingcat use for
photo 'analysis' Fotoforensics.com well the founder of that website Dr Neal Krawetz, has
slammed the group for misusing the software
' SPIEGEL ONLINE: What's your personal conclusion about the satellite images?
Kriese: The first thing to die in war is the truth. Each side likes to throw random
smoke bombs. There is no way of knowing if the images show what Moscow is claiming.
What one can say, however, is that this "analysis" has achieved nothing besides
raising awareness of Bellingcat. '
Notice the quotation marks Kriese places around the word 'analysis' so an actual
professional dismantles underwear salesman Higgins big surprise there same as Prof Postol
dismantles his BS about chem weapons in Syria
@jilles dykstra No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making
planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica
until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been
possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed,
I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all
difficult to control a modern plane from outside. "Whatever the case, any aircraft
specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane
from outside."
Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . .
I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be
transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red,
white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian
pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17
are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue
striping.
All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to
the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal.
@Skeptikal Unfortunately I cannot make out what Chang is saying about "global tsunami."
58:00. He swallows his words at that point and the most important info is garbled. He
repeats what he said, but once again it is not intelligible. The interviewer does not help.
What is Chang saying about "214"? What kind of "global tsunami" will cause things to "spill
out"? In fact, quite a lot of what follows is unclear. Thanks for the JFK film.
I recommended Chang principally cuz he's the first one who pointed out there's a massive
air sea war game going on and mh370 was flying right into that 'eye of storm'.
Was it possible that the AWACS, spy planes, spy ships, etc didnt detect the airliner
?
In fact there was also an air exercise going on when mh17 was shot down . !
[2]
really makes one wonder if these 'war games' accompanying 911, mh17, mh370 and terror
drills on the days of Sandy Hook, London 7/7, Boston marathon were there to cover up a
crime, a drill that turned live ? [3]
Ian Fleming's law of probability applies.
Here's a Chang video with better sound track but I'd have to re- watch it to see whether
I can answer any of your questions. [watched it some years back]
@FKA Max So, you are basically claiming that the Tungstène software is
lying.
I have to give it to you, you are uniquely and expertly brazen.
Photo Expert: 'A Manipulated Image Is Not Necessarily a Lie'
In the age of digital photography, it's become increasingly easy to modify, process or
manipulate the content of an image, and increasingly harder to sort truth from fiction.
In 2009, under the impulsion of the French Ministry of Defense, the computer science
technologies company eXo maKina developed Tungstene, a program that can reveal changes
made to a digital file. Just a few weeks after World Press Photo, the world's leading
photojournalism competition, was forced to disqualify 20% of final entries because of
excessive manipulation, Roger Cozien, the man behind Tungstene, discusses the relevance
of truth in photography in an interview first published in French in OAI13 and
republished here for the first time in English.
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F05%2Ftungstene-north-korea-2.jpg
In this photograph of North Korean troops engaging in a tr[ai]ning exercise, eXo maKina was
able to detect that parts of the image had been duplicated and enhanced.
You are currently between the "Name-calling" and "Ad Hominem" level of "Graham's
hierarchy of disagreement". Without the insults, bad manners and bad temper you are
currently displaying, you could actually make it to the "Contradiction" or even
"Counterargument" level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham%27s_hierarchy_of_disagreement
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg/400px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg.png
Holy mother of jesus another friggin spam storm from retardo boy
Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation
?
What part of this did you not understand ?
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD
WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad
hominem' you posted
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the
substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE
ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO
Again that flies over your retarded head what does it take to make a retard understand
basic English ?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT does not an ad
hominem make moron
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A
Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.
Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane
underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what
they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were
being entirely truthful.
Don't tantalize us. Do give a link to the report of the Spanish
(!) air traffic controller's statement. sounds odd. Pay in Ukraine would be much lower than
in Spain though I suppose he could have married a rich Ukrainia
n's daughter or ex .
Also, while waiting, I'll guess that someone sacked for being drunk on the job decided
to sell a story to TV.
Much more important how do you deal with the DSB's 250+ page report which, from memory,
rejects all theories involving other aircraft in the near vicinty of MH17 based on both
Ukrainan and Russian radar which showed MH17 but no other planes?
@Gerard Quote : "Most importantly they had the motive". Agreed this is the most
important question of all. After the first report I wrote to the Dutch DIB in The Hague
asking as to whether the board had considered the motive and also what motive the East
Ukranian separatists could have prompted them to hand over in good faith the flight
recorders. Of course I did not receive a reply and did not expect a reply. Hitherto I have
never received a honest and coherent answer to those two questions. Personally I have no
answer to the question what motive Russia could have to shoot down a passenger liner in
broad daylight.
I am still awaiting serious answers to those two questions.
(Sorry I couldn't read all comments) I think you are seriously missing the point that the
default hypothesis is the best answer, namely that no one had a motive to shoot down MH17.
If, instead of writing to what you call the "Dutch DIB" you had read the Dutch Safety
Board's report you would have spared being treated as an irritating gadfly. The DSB's job
was technical explanation not analysis of political or military motives. Moreover it might
have occurred to you that a very good reason for handing over the black boxes was to avoid
the inferences which would naturally be drawn by refusal to hand them over. Indeed it makes
sense that Russia instructed its protegés to avoid doing something silly like hiding
the black boxes.
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...
Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental
retardation...?
What part of this did you not understand...?
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE
STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very
definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the
substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact
that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...
Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand
basic English...?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an
ad hominem make...moron...
https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Have
you read the DSB report? Given the amount of time you are putting into whatever cause it is
you support its 250 or so pages shouldn't deter you. Interesting in particular how many
online comments on MH17 it shows to irresponsible or trollish blathering. The holes are
obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes. There were hundreds of metal fragments in
the pilots' bodies. There were no other aircraft nearby etc etc. So .
If you have read what must now be the starting point for discussion what do you say is
wrong with the report, and on what evidence and reasoning?
Can you at least be one of those who is ear headed enough to see that the DSB report
goes nowhere near saying that anyone, let alone Russians, deliberately shot down MH17?
@Greg S. I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known
to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red,
white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian
pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17
are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue
striping.
All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to
the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal. And
why do you like that conspiracy theory? A lifelong taste for fairy stories?
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...
Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental
retardation...?
What part of this did you not understand...?
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE
STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very
definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the
substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact
that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...
Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand
basic English...?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an
ad hominem make...moron...
https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Err,
not exactly OT, but consider my 'it' characterisation may be close to the mark -- if FKA
Max is a robot = AI experiment [going wrong!] Consider this month alone it's posted 74
times so far, with a 'nom-life-time' average of over 320 words per post, noting a lot of
cut'n paste included = getting towards 2k text per day, with a non-trivial number of
incoherent sections. An erring robot for the FUKUSIL empire! rgds
@Anon I don't see you having tagged Wizard of Oz comments with Troll so are your
readers to infer that your definition of a troll is someone whose questions you can't
answer or whose nitpicking pedantry (as perhaps you see it) has got under your skin?
But you do say something of general interest. You allege that there are lies in a post
which was nearly all relaying what the Dutch Safety Board said so it is a bit hard to see
what you meant by "lies". Would you care to elucidate - unless of course your "lies" too,
like "troll" was a Humpty Dumpty word. I did not mark that personage as Troll because
somehow the site does not allow me to do that.
Now, as to lies, here is an incomplete list:
1. None of the pieces of material evidence satisfied chain of custody rules required by
the law in most countries, including the Netherlands.
2. Alleged missile fragments "from the site" were provided by one of the suspects,
Ukraine. Their provenance was not (and could not be) ascertained.
3. Shrapnel pieces. I quote DSB findings "The numerous injuries resulting from
perforation of the pre-formed fragments after detonation of the warhead immediately killed
the three crew members in the cockpit. There were no pre-formed fragments found in the
bodies of the other occupants."
4. Site access: in contrast to WoO, DSB does not complain about site access (item 2.12.1
of the report, 1st paragraph). The second paragraph talks about security situation. If
fact, Ukie military shelled the area of the wreckage for weeks (mentioned in DSB report on
p. 54, without specifying who was shelling the area, which is a giveaway). WoO does not
acknowledge that, blaming Donetsk People's Republic instead.
5. Most foreign objects found in passenger remains were identified as personal
belongings, parts of the plane, and stones/coal particles from the ground (pp. 84, 86,
95).
6. A number of metal fragments were found and analyzed. Some could have been high-energy
pieces from whatever downed the plane (items 2.15.2 and 2.16.2).
7. Traces of several explosives were found: RDX, TNT, and PETN (p. 93). Only one
explosive is used in Buk missiles.
8. There were two (not one) peaks of sound from cockpit recorder before the crash (pp.
11-112).
9. Item 3.8.4 is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research
institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be
included.
One can continue, but what's the point? The other issues (items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and
8), as well as the fact that international airlines fly through the Russian airspace, but
avoid Ukrainian, which I raised in my post (#45) are studiously avoided by that "WoO"
personage and other trolls from the same side. Sapenti sat.
@jilles dykstra I am Dutch, and of course the disaster starled us.
Hardly anyone in our country has no personal connection with someone who died, or someone
who lost a relative or friend.
A friend of one of my children lost three relatives.
However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military 'experts'
knew it was a Russian BUK.
That on the afternoon of the disaster prime minister Rutte made a phone call to vice prime
minister Asscher, so secret that Asscher, on vacation in the south of France, had to call
Rutte on a land line so that, as Asscher stated 'the Russians could not listen in'.
On the day of the disaster the Netherlands blocked sanctions against Russia, the next
morning sanctions were possible.
Since then the accusation, without much proof, as far as I can see, and without any
motive 'that Russia did it' has been repeated over and over again.
Memorials were erected, remembrances all over the place.
So to be honest, I do not believe one word of the accusation.
The only possibility of Russian implication is an accident, Ukraine abusing overflying
passenger planes as shield for its bombers, in the expectation that nu BUK would be
fired.
The possibility of shooting down MH17 deliberately, in the tradition of Sept 11 and
Pearl Harbour, quite probable, in my opinion.
These investigations, read the Warren report on the Kennedy murder, not worth the paper
they're written on.
In the Warren case, Whitewash wiped the floor with Warren.
If something similar will be published on the Dutch report, I would not be surprised.
Jilles I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me
to it
' Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I
collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials
and I discussed many issues.
They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official
investigation is fundamentally flawed.
@AnonFromTN The organizers of the crime knew exactly what is going to happen and how
they intended to spin the event. What else is new? There is even a suspicion that Dutch
authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses
picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from
Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days
between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of
different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the
plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea
'... Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I
collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials
and I discussed many issues.
They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official
investigation is fundamentally flawed.
A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who
is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer... The fact that I'm Dutch and follow Dutch
'news', plus that I've never heard of this Max van der Werff, tells a lot, I suppose.
But, as with Sept 11, I'm no longer interested in detailed discussions about events.
They just muddy the waters.
Neither the rebels, nor Russia had any interest in shooting down a commerial airliner,
while the west had.
Naming the criminal who is supposed to have done it, a Russian army officer, can also not
convince me, as the investigation club intends to ask him why he did it.
@jilles dykstra There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the
disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses
picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from
Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days
between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of
different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the
plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea There are many indications who organized this
provocation: only the organizers could have responded with the speed the US authorities
did. I would not be surprised if the Dutch government was in on the game ahead of time,
too. After all, what are vassals for? As we know, the king is played by its courtiers.
Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and
incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities
of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the
benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the
documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of
WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my
tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black
and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and
wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very
same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm
neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find
your answers somewhere else. "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust
reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite
(pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the
US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European
history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the
victims of WWII). "
Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense
if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over
again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take
over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question
everything our MSM spouts. The game is up.
@Robjil "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and
museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi)
activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US
constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European
history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the
victims of WWII). "
Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense
if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over
again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take
over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question
everything our MSM spouts. The game is up. These far right Ukrainian groups are either
hired muscle who are too dumb to know that they'll be disposed of once they've outlived
their usefulness, or directly bankrolled as front operations by the Jewish oligarchs
running the Ukraine, as a diversionary tactic. Probably some combination of both, even
Putin fails to ask the right questions about them.
Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and
incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities
of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the
benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the
documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of
WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my
tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black
and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and
wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very
same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm
neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find
your answers somewhere else. " the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the
evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from
the very same junta that they're supporting?"
-- You imply that the revival of neo-Nazism, with the considerable and decisive help from
ziocons, and the resultant sufferings of Ukrainian Jews are self-excluding. They are
not.
-- And where have you found, in my posts, a conflation of all Jews with zionists/ziocons?
It is like saying that the US citizenry is made up of Cheneys and Kristols. This is not
true. Speak for yourself.
I really don't understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it.
I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to
display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS
insignia?
You might be on to something:
The Straight-Edge Neo-Nazi Group that Attacked a Ukrainian Roma Camp
" We really understand that Russia could be behind it, but I can't say it with 100%
certainty, because it wouldn't be a correct thing to do, " Hrytsak said at a joint
press-conference with Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Hrytsak stated that "a namesake organization was registered in Russia in 2014,"
although it's not clear if he meant if it was formalized in Russia or popped up on the
radar there. If he was referring to the large VK group, Hrytsak is mistaken, as Popovich
is and was Ukrainian. While the Kremlin has directly funded and supported numerous
far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Europe and Russia, most notably through the proxy of
billionaire Konstantin Malofeyev
http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415623
, there are no apparent links between the Sober and Angry Youth and the Kremlin other
than typical links of pan-Slavism present in many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in
the region.
Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs also claims that, regarding the lethal attack
on Roma, Russia has an interest in presenting Ukraine as "a certain radical reality that
doesn't adhere to human rights."
[...] Many Ukrainian far-right groups have a fervent anti-Russian position in relation to
the war in the Donbas, including the formation of armed battalions , as seen with
Right Sector's "Volunteer Ukrainian Corps," Azov Battalion, the St. Mary's Battalion, and
so on. In contrast to these groups, the Sober and Angry Youth groups across Ukraine
rarely express strong feelings one way or another in relation to the war, instead
focusing on issues related to white supremacy, driving out migrants from Ukraine, and
outing and attacking LGBT individuals. Ragozin summarized their position succinctly
in a recent tweet, saying that the concerns of the Sober and Angry Youth "transcends
borders and national loyalties," with their battle for white supremacy in the region
overriding the war between Ukraine and Russia in the country's east.
-
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/
Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a
fraud and a liar.
Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine
on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there:
nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by
Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase).
Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles ... at
least answer other commenters points
1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when
'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises - like Wizard of
Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive
bellingcat spam, say.
3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity
for falsehood, ... "
4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but
a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui
bono?
5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly
accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to
attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All*
present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.
Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all
non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]
Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of
and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any
'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in
lemma 2.
Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b)
silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as
emphatically as I can - in my own 'style.'
Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending
victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:
FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the
Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.
a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches
add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies
The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the
handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze
propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e.
trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'
Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the
MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed
on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a
'*circumstantial*' argument.
We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down.
The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that
way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see
Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion
hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's
"F--k the EU!" If the cap fits ... Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread
could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F ** k the EU", let alone trotting it
out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real
world.
@Anon Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything
even once of V. Nuland's "F**k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth
time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world. Haw haw! That has to be one
of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations
on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.
FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having
squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in
history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak
attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters
usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason.
@AnonFromTN Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that
bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.
Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine
on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there:
nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by
Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase). Please, don't feed the automated troll. This
is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in
spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal)
person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it."
@annamaria Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to
use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm'
selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but
pollution. The best is to ban "it." Judging by the amount of spam it posts and by total
lack of intelligence or selection, you are probably right. Will ignore that thing from now
on. Then again, a Ukie troll, even though biologically human, could be at the same level of
intelligence (meaning lack thereof). After all, Ukies have medically certified retard as a
speaker of their parliament. Still, whether a computer script or a Ukie, that thing should
be ignored.
@NoseytheDuke Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another
commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.
FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having
squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in
history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak
attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters
usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason. thnx; I see two grounds for the
hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a
significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the
"they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the
chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited
from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty
relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J Then, Q: Who benefited
from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of
Yinon
Plan ],
@skrik thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive
FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe
"the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has
boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus
operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one =
LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is
alleged to have been a crypto J... Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false
flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon
Plan ],
testing;preview works but publish disappears
[1st attempt was 'marked as spam' but
later published; the rest:]
, Q: Who benefited from the maidan inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons'
"the bad Russians!" campaign, one sees the modus operandi trend and cui bono
whodunnit. MH17 fits to the FUKUSIL pattern, *not* to the Russians. Then see Sherlock
Holmes, eliminate the impossible and WYSIWYG = the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria. They just
can't help themselves; they *must* try to resist the irresistible but their very own
actions only dig the criminal FUKUSIL deeper into their hole. rgds
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative"
media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple,
contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17.
The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting
down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses
the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol'
proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth
of Fox News.
What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it
was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so
it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation
INFEKTION.
Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was
the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start
bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why
would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was
unintentional.
More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the
guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard"
evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from
the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down,
where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to
the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.
There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow
doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."
But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will.
They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this
trash piece. Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK
is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.
Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that
a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude
and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was
done prior to the downing of MH17?
p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.
@NoseytheDuke Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a
BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.
Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that
a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude
and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was
done prior to the downing of MH17?
p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your
comment.
This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK
will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat
deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through
a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.
Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been
repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time,
certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were
incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in
Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll
probably find it.
In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious
from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over
at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:
And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and
how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the
anti-propaganda in the end.
@MattBoi This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a
BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat
deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through
a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.
Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been
repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time,
certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were
incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in
Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll
probably find it.
In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious
from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over
at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:
And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and
how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the
anti-propaganda in the end. A commendable attempt by you but a total fail nonetheless. If
you've seen the shape of BUK shrapnel you'd realise what a massive stretch it is to even
suggest that those sharp edged pieces hitting thin metal sheeting at high velocity would
result in making round holes has a "benign explanation". By definition, they are designed
to shred their target. That those holes would reveal both an entry and exit direction of
that shrapnel while coming from the same source would require "magic shrapnel" with magical
properties along the lines of the "magic bullet" of JFK fame.
The clear giveaway for me was the rush to judgement by both politicians and media,
worldwide. The near instant removal of contradictory testimonials, such as the BBC
broadcast of the eye-witnesses, the unconventional investigation which included one
potential (and the more likely) culprit, Ukraine. The select language used by media
throughout this saga has been a giveaway too, as is you providing a link to a source that
was originally set up by the CIA and is now funded by Congressional whores in the USA.
I notice these are your first attempts at commenting here. A weak effort to be sure but
with practice you may yet rise to the level of Quartermaster so don't be discouraged.
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative"
media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple,
contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17.
The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting
down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses
the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol'
proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth
of Fox News.
What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it
was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so
it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation
INFEKTION.
Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was
the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start
bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why
would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was
unintentional.
More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the
guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard"
evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from
the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down,
where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to
the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.
There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow
doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."
But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will.
They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this
trash piece.
Of course not, because it was an accident!
OK; a sad and sorry, feeble attempt, but let's see. A BUK [from somewhere, anywhere]
arrives at a launch-spot, is fired by some crew [who is obviously way 'under-qualified']
and hitting 'by accident' MH17, which just happened to have been put on that specific, far
from normal track = anomalously, deliberately by Ukrie air-traffic-control, 'best feeble
guess' = presumably the crew thinking that they are shooting down an Ukrie warplane [only
Ukries have warplanes in that area].
Perhaps the BUK was captured by 'rebels' [recall Reagan-sponsored rebels were his
'patriots'], or perhaps, as bellingcat asserts, Russia actually sent in the BUK with crew,
who were also so incompetent that they perpetrate this 'accident.'
Q: You really believe that? Who could accept that as an explanation with anywhere near
maximum probability? It's simply too complicated; contradicting KISS = keep it simple
stupid!
A: As I've already said above at lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means,
motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any
modus operandi and cui bono?
Premeditation could be a) getting an *UKrie* BUK pre-positioned, then b) *UKries*
putting MH17 into the death-zone. Der, it's simply 1 + 1 = 2; pre-position BUK, divert MH17
and BLAM! All Ukries' own work. Modus operandi [= false-flag atrocity psyops] and
cui bono [PNAC/Yinon/Nuland-$5bio Plan], are SOP for FUKUSIL. Then, there are the
precisely circular entry/exit holes which *cannot* be dismissed by any amount of
hand-waving.
Note that this purported 'accident' as asserted/supported by FKA Max, MattBoi, peterAUS
& Wizard of Oz et al. as the typical pro-FUKUSIL vigilante posse, is precisely the same
situation as a little boy finding a gun and shooting his sister dead, then blaming the
little boy. Look for the gun provider/trigger-pull commanders: FUKUSIL by a country
1.609km. Suck on that, sickos.
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A
Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.
Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane
underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what
they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were
being entirely truthful.
In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial
flight-tracking websites showed MH17′s path as having crossed the Donbass only on
that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something
like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).
This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned
one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was
circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was
Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites
a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route
every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.
I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link
to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I
couldn't find it.
@republic In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on
that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.
On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It
also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.
I wonder why this purge is taking place?
Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice. Zero Hedge changed their servers and/or
software at the beginning of this year. If I recall correctly, all comments before that
time were lost. Before then, you could go right back to the founding of the site.
I've just checked, and now comments are available back to part way through 1st of June
2017, so maybe they are gradually working backwards restoring them -- but I don't expect it
to be a high priority for them. It's a pity, as the missing comments were often the main
attraction of the site, full of intelligent analysis and useful links. The quality of the
ZH commentariat declined noticeably at the time of the 2016 election, so we are missing the
really good stuff.
@kgbgb In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking
websites showed MH17's path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being
over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days.
(Looking further back required membership).
This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned
one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was
circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was
Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites
a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route
every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.
I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link
to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I
couldn't find it.
Thank you for your comment. I do read The Guardian but mainly to see
just how pungent is the crap of the day that they're peddling. Another thing about MH17 is
the video that was supposed to show the BUK being transported across the border from
Russia, until it was pointed out that a billboard for a car dealer some 400kms away was
seen in the video. Car dealers advertise locally so the video was a blatant fraud and I
wonder why anyone would go to that trouble if not to attempt to cover the tracks of a
pre-planned false-flag event. Australia's Channel 9 did a 60 minutes program full of
nonsense worthy of Elliot Higgins where they also tried to establish "facts" that
implicated Russia. Only fools swallowed it but sadly, there is no shortage of wilful fools.
Cheers
Americans Have The Right To Be Stupid -- John Kerry U.S. Secretary of State
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5twSqDZRdiA
Case 3 : The minority view is false and the received view is true. For example,
suppose a scholar were to write a book defending the thesis that slavery never happened
in the United States. Why should we even tolerate such an outlandish view?
1. Even though the scholar's claims are false, again this forces us to revisit and
perhaps rediscover much of the evidence we have documenting the history of slavery. This
in turn informs both the way we do history, the way we accept truth claims, and the way
we view the present.
2. The falseness of the scholar's claims actually strengthens many of our commonly
received views about not just the fact of slavery, but it's legacy also.
-
https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2294657
Thank you! I hadn't realised that John Kerry had written a letter. Why didn't you post it
at the beginning of the thread so everybody could have been convinced by this truth and
everybody would know of Russia's guilt in the matter? Of course lots of people have
questioned this in the above thread, convincingly too, but no doubt most were unaware that
John Kerry wrote a letter that constitutes proof of Ukraine's innocence and Russia's guilt.
Also this means that the MSM can be believed and perhaps they were right about Saddam
having WMDs too. Thanks again for your commitment to informing people everywhere on the
truth.
As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued
by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which
military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this
confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?
1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important
and the author should discuss that in detail.
3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should
discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.
The facts matter, but not to this writer. The facts are as described. The investigatory
body has determined that 'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk
missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was
downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove
around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17
and was evacuated -- again largely unobserved -- back into Russia. While nobody actually
saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the
Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who
he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's
evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their
theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John
Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery"
indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made
available to the investigation. Not have they requested it.
@Balderdash The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that
'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day,
and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by
Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that
were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated - again largely
unobserved - back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing,
Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims
the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved.
The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's evidence in their most recent report.
They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources,
presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John
Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery"
indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made
available to the investigation. Not have they requested it. One part of a Buk cannot be
used independently to bring down a plane flying at high altitude without the other
components. This is why it is usually referred to as a Buk system. Bellingcat is just a
disinformation project and a pathetic one at that though it's been quite effective against
the weak minded.
And in the classic commercial way, it provides a twofer, since the white helmet first gained
widespread popularity with the Village People, so it clicks with the whole LGBTQ touchy feely
approach to world affairs we're always being told is essential. Real world hard hats tend to be
in high-vis, almost painfully bright colours – orange, red, maybe blue.
White? In the Levant, where half or more of the buildings are white to reflect the sun?
Those are really bad. But I don't see much to link them to the White Helmets – just one
guy with what I guess is their insignia on the back of his shirt, and nobody wearing the
famous white helmets. It almost looks like someone deliberately making a fake which is full
of holes, to implicate the White Helmets in making fake films. Just playing devil's advocate
here. It would be very easy indeed for the White Helmets to disown these videos if they do
not gain any traction.
IIRC, the Russian government said a number of videos were shot with most being of low quality
and would go straight to YouTube. Two were of sufficiently high cinematic quality to be
released to Western media outlets.
However, with the recent agreement to stop military action in Idlib, it would seem that
there is no longer an opportunity to use the videos as a justification for a Western military
attack.
Indeed, the Idlib agreement has removed any pretext for Western attacks for the
foreseeable future. That is big. The military phase of the war in Syria seems to be over.
The Russian Defense Ministry has ascertained that the videos showing the movement of a
Buk missile system from Russia to Ukraine, presented by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT)
probing the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine, were fabricated, ministry
spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov told reporters
The Defense Ministry also presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in
the MH17 disaster in 2014, Major General Igor Konashenkov, spokesman for the ministry, told
the media
General Konashenkov said the audio recording of a conversation between Ukrainian
military servicemen was made back in 2016 in the Odessa Region during the Rubezh-2016
exercise and published in the Ukrainian mass media.
"If so, we'll [a synonym of the verb 'shoot down' – TASS] another Malaysian
Boeing," one of the Ukrainian military servicemen said in the conversation
Kiev has called the conclusions of the Russian Ministry of Defence concerning the
missile that shot down the Boeing a "fake"
Заявление
Российской
Федерации о
якобы
украинском
следе ракеты,
которая сбила
МН17 -- это
очередной
неудачный фейк
Кремля для
того, чтобы
прикрыть свое
преступление,
которое уже
доказано как
официальным
следствием, так
и независимыми
экспертными
группами.
The statement of the Russian Federation about the alleged Ukrainian origin of the
missile that hit the MH17 is another unsuccessful Kremlin fake, made in order to cover up its
crime, which has already been proven both by an official investigation and by independent
expert groups.
One of the investigating parties being the Ukraine, of course.
"The JIT has taken note of the information that has been publicly presented by the
authorities of the Russian Federation for the first time today The JIT will meticulously
study the materials presented today as soon as the Russian Federation makes the relevant
documents available to the JIT as requested in May 2018 and required by UNSC resolution
2166," the statement of the Joint Investigation Team read.
However, one member of the JIT has already made its own conclusion concerning the evidence
presented by the Russian MoD, without even finding it necessary to analyze any documents
presented by those evil Moskali.
And who else would be allowed to get away with that? A necessary suspect, by virtue of the
incident having occurred there and having motive, means and opportunity aplenty, nonetheless
allowed a seat on the investigation, unrestricted access to the evidence (much of which has
by now likely disappeared, never mind the opportunities to doctor it before anyone else saw
it) and a veto over the publication of the findings? The dice have been loaded ridiculously
in Ukraine's favour, and the wise monkeys still can't come up with a convincing story among
themselves. But Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, and it's just so cute, you have to believe
it.
When the west finally abandons the Ukraine Project, it is going to have to conclude that
Ukraine and Russia were secretly working together the whole time, to trick and defraud and
rob western institutions that tried their best to help – there you go, boys; there's
your cover story. Far better to be thought a cabbagehead than a co-conspirator.
I still don't like it, and you know why – fragments of the engine and nozzle, never
mind one big enough to reveal the entire serial number, should not be in the wreckage.
Nothing should have impacted the plane except shrapnel from the warhead, as the missile
explodes by proximity fuse without ever touching the plane. Any debris from the missile
should have fallen close to where the plane was hit, which was miles away from the crash
site. I'm surprised Russia didn't bring that up already when the Ukies were hollering about
finding Buk missile parts in the wreckage.
Russia never needed to smuggle in a single launcher to implicate Ukraine – if it had
wanted to do that, it could have used a more advanced and longer-range missile to down it as
soon as it entered Ukrainian airspace, without ever having to leave Russia.
The JIT, led by Ukraine, will study the materials meticulously for any way in the world that
they could have been faked or doctored, and then build a case that this is precisely what was
done. Russia will once again be taken to task and scolded for lying and trying to frame
Ukraine, because the alternative – that Russia was telling the truth all along, in the
face of deliberate and determined western efforts to bury the truth and shield Ukraine
– is unacceptable.
Bellingcrap doctored videos of the alleged Russian Buk system in the Donbass.
Incompetent Ukr forces have a history of shooting down civilian aircraft by accident. MH17
was another victim of their incompetence. Too bad NATzO needs to turn this into "Putler did
it" propaganda. I guess NATzO can't take Russia on without dirty tricks. Sore, pathetic
losers.
Western commentary on Russia is often so far removed from reality as to appear deranged.
Notable quotes:
"... producing documents showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in Ukraine in 1986. ..."
"... The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army, which can't actually be ruled out). ..."
A
few months ago, the Joint Investigation Team which is examining the 2014 shooting down of
Flight MH17 asked Russia to provide evidence about the origins of the anti-aircraft missile
used in the attack. Today the Russian Ministry of Defence did just that, producing documents
showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile
fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in
Ukraine in 1986.
The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore
Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible
for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army,
which can't actually be ruled out).
The immediate reaction of Western journalists was to scoff at the Russians' claim. For
instance, The Daily Telegraph's Alec Luhn wrote on Twitter, 'In short, Russia has
cited its own documents to claim the missile that downed MH17 was delivered to Ukraine in 1986
and never left.' Quite where Russia would have gotten documents on the matter other than from
Russia is a question Luhn ignores, but his insinuation is clear: Russian documents can't be
trusted, and so this story isn't worth further investigation. The Financial Times's
Max Seddon was equally dismissive. 'How convenient for them to have discovered this now, four
years after the fact,' he wrote on Twitter (where the top of his feed continues to show a Tweet
saying that 'Russia's team is so bad fans are worried they won't make it out of the World Cup
group stage'!). And the Kyiv Post's Christopher Miller showed a picture of a giggling
journalist, and remarked 'The face of the person in the crowd at the Russian MOD briefing on
MH17 tells you all you need to know about the latest desperate attempt to deflect blame for the
disaster.'
Western journalists' rapid dismissal of the Russian documents contrasts with their equally
rapid acceptance of documents purporting to be the passport applications of Salisbury poisoning
suspects Aleksandr Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov. I have absolutely no idea whether any of these
documents are genuine. For all I know, all or none or some of them might be. What concerns me
here is what the journalists' reactions tell us about their biases, namely that as a matter of
course they don't trust anything coming out of the mouth of Russian officials.
My observations of the Russian media show me that the same is true of Russians, albeit the
other way round, i.e. they display an almost total distrust of anything said by Westerners.
RT editor Margarita Simonyan, who carried out a recent interview with the Salisbury
suspects, expressed the sentiment very clearly on the political talk show 60 Minutes
the other day. She didn't have an opinion as to whether Petrov and Boshirov were telling the
truth, she said, but what she did know was that Western intelligence agencies had lied about
Iraqi WMD and had published a document which named her 27 times as leading an effort to
undermine American democracy, something which was completely untrue.
Why she should believe
anything the West said, she asked? Reading the Russian press, and watching other TV shows, I
get the impression that this attitude is fairly widespread.
Speaking to journalists, Gen. Nikolay Parshin showed a document trail of the Buk missile.
According to the documents, some of which have been declassified for the presentation, it was
produced at a military plant in Dolgoprudny in the Moscow region in 1986.
Serial number on
engine and nozzle of the missile.
The missile was shipped from the plant on December 29, 1986 and delivered to military unit
20152 located in what is now Ukraine. It is now called 223rd anti-aircraft defense regiment of
the Ukrainian armed forces, the report said. The unit took part in Kiev's crackdown on rebels
in eastern Ukraine in June 2014, the general said.
The evidence disproves the accusations by Ukraine and some other parties, which claim that a
missile fired by a launcher, secretly delivered from Russia, was responsible for the downing of
MH17, the Ministry of Defense report said. All the materials have been sent to the Dutch
investigators, the Russian military added.
MIssilye shipment
records found in Russia.
The Russian military also challenges video footage used by the UK-based group Bellingcat
, which calls itself a citizen journalism organization, to back its allegations about the
delivery of the Buk launcher from Russia. The Defense Ministry showed a video clip with some of
the footage, highlighting inconsistencies, which it said proved that the footage had been
manipulated to place images of the launcher into background which were not in the original.
The Bellingcat investigation was featured in the latest update by Dutch prosecutors involved
in the MH17 investigation, prompting the Russian military to study it in detail, they said. The
Russian video showed an example of how an Abrams tank can be shown to be carried by a trailer
in the streets of Ukraine in the same way.
Analysis of
Bellingcat footage by Russian experts.
The third part of the presentation was what the Russian officials called a record of
intercepted communications of Ukrainian officials discussing, in 2016, the risk of flying
through restricted airspace over Ukraine. Among a barrage of complaints one phrase says unless
the restrictions are respected "we'll f***ing f**k up another Malaysian Boeing".
The Russian military say the complaints came from Col. Ruslan Grinchak, who serves in a
brigade responsible for radar control of the Ukrainian airspace. His unit tracked the MH17
flight in 2014, so he may have information which is not publicly available about the
disaster.
Information on a
Col. Ruslan Grinchak shown by the Russian military.
Gen. Igor Konashenkov, who hosted the briefing, said that Ukraine failed to provide radar
data from its stations to the Dutch investigators. He also suggested that archive documents
from the Ukrainian unit, which received the Buk missile back in 1986, would be of use to the
probe, unless Kiev claims that they are no longer available. He stressed rules are in place
which mean that such documents should still be stored in Ukraine.
The Russian military said they had no evidence to disprove a scenario, involving the
Ukrainian rebels capturing the missile from the Ukrainian army, but pointed out that Ukrainian
officials publicly denied anything like this had ever happened.
Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling
in the rebel-held part of the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15
crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia was blamed by Western media in the first
days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.
The Joint Investigation Team, which is lead by the Netherlands, includes Ukraine, but not
Russia. Moscow believes that the
investigation is biased, failing to obtain all necessary evidence from Ukraine and relying on
questionable sources while ignoring evidence provided by Russia, which doesn't fit the theory
favored by
Kiev.
Think your friends would be interested? Share this story!
By the time Dutch involvement in the coup in the Ukraine, the support for neo-nazi's and
corrupt olichargs who want to kill the population in Donetsk/Lugansk and further the NATO
agenda and the absurd deal with the Ukraine about the MH17 investigation are exposed, only
people with serious mental issues will believe the official MH17 report.
The Dutch are NATO's plumbers. The do the dirty little jobs no one else wants to do. From
drone targeting around the globe for Uncle Sam (there was a case in court with Somali
nationals who lost their loved ones because the Dutch militaty intelligence agency illegally
shared tapped sat phone data from an anti-piracy mission with the US to kill supposed
terrorists in Somalia with drone strikes) to funnelling tens of millions of euros to
headchopping terrorists under the guise humanitarian assistance or helping democratic
groups.
The concept of aiding "armed moderate opposition" in another country is criminal and the
politicians who were responsible should be extradited to Syria for prosecution as terrorist
financiers.
How would the Dutch react if around a hundred countries would put up 70 million euros each
to create, train, arm and assist "armed moderate opposition" in the Netherlands? How would
the Dutch react if their country was torn apart by mercenaries and criminals from over eighty
countries?
How would the Dutch react if a few hundred thousand of them would be killed and a few
million of them would turn into refugees?
How would the Dutch react if their country was bombed into the stone age?
The stench of the continued cover up and the slothful admitance of funding the blindingly
obvious putrid jihadist PR team called the WhiteHelmet is what we should be talking about.
Will Netflix must make a massive public apology for making their vile PR WH movies ? That is
what we need .
All the western governments have knowingly lied and inflicted war and death by silence and
silent support for mercenaries in Syria who kill and inflict a medieval hated doctrine and
zealot ideology which has caused immense suffering and destruction.
Let's have a western leader stand and tell the truth and repent. The MSM vile machine is not
in control of the narrative anymore . It's time to condem this flimsy tissue of drivel, this
pathetic cartel of liars to the past.
The truth has been undeniably since the fall of East Aleppo in December 2016.
All western media outlets and powers have lied and perpetuated the suffering and war in Syria
since then .
How the Dutch corruption works one can see, among other things, when one looks at the
attitude of professor André Nollkaemper, who kept silent about the fact that the
Netherlands supported terrorists in Syria. One has to know the following:
'The politicians adopted a policy that all future support on intervention would be
reviewed by an International Law expert. In this case that would have been André
Nollkaemper – Dean and Professor of Public International Law at the Faculty of Law of
the University of Amsterdam. Of course he was not consulted by PM Mark Rutte of MH17
fame.'
More important even: he himself kept silent for years, like the Dutch mainstream-media and
the Dutch politicians and the so called urban elites, after it was well known via internet
that the Dutch government supported terrorists.
"... Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed. ..."
Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of
honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's
enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by
the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian
SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed.
The Dutch also never admitted that a conflict of interest was present in their leadership
of the team: that conflict being the fact that MH17 set off from Amsterdam Airport Schiphol
(AAS), itself the site of a previous incident in 2009 when the Underpants Bomber boarded a
jet bound for Detroit and tried to detonate his bomb in mid-air. Any possibility that AAS
itself should have been part of the investigation was likely nixed.
It would be too much to hope that the Dutch will do the right thing, admit their dismal
leadership and conflict of interest, and remove themselves from the investigation, and that
the Australians on the team might also resign, since they've also allowed the Ukrainians to
push them around.
@Stan van Houcke (9) I'm dutch too and totally agree. The Dutch media, especially Nieuwsuur
and Volkskrant lost all its credibility. Only fools will take any of their information
serious. This is getting ever more worse and I don't expect any change in that.
These revelations should have come much earlier. They might have expected the information to
come to the public anyhow, which made them decide to pretend some investigative journalism.
In the meanwhile they brainwash us by repeating false news on Syria, on Venezuela, on
Nicaragua, and so on....
The same for the notorious Dutch investigations. It's all false, to name some of them: The
2011 comodo/diginotar CA hack research (blaming Iran), the 2014 MH17 research (blaming
Russia), the januari 2018 invented
'evidence' for the DNC-hack (blaming Russia).....
"... I'll add one. Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders, traveling under a diplomatic passport and a false identity (assumed name). This put him right in the middle of the Ukraine crises, along with Biden and V Nuland, and the mess they created just to get NATO on Russia's borders. ..."
"... Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between his visit and the taking sown of MH17. ..."
"... The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17 should give one an idea of this). ..."
Fesje van der Wal-Kijlstra , August 18, 2018 at 4:06 am
I read (Google) Brennan visited Kiev, in the end of June 2014., about 3 weeks before the
MH17 was taken down.
Oliver Stone knew CIA had a false flag incident in mind when their invasion in the Bay of
Pigs did not work out to end the rule of Fidel Castro in Cuba: taking down an aircraft and
blaming Castro for it. John F. Kennedy did not permit this.
Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between
his visit and the taking sown of MH17.
Russian rebels shot 6 descending planes with granates from their shoulder. Poroshenko
called them "terrorists" and this false flag (?) could be helpful.
Anne Jaclard , August 16, 2018 at 7:55 pm
I do know that the Wall Street Journal mentioned Brennan's alleged role in the creation of
the Steele Dossier and the FBI texting scheme in both the news and editorial pages, but I
still don't think that he personally is the "ringleader" of all of this.
The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started
long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17
should give one an idea of this).
"... I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee
the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and
I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack. ..."
I blame (Brennan) for MH 17 crash in Ukraine. Two months before Brennan was in Kiev. The Obama Whitehouse denied (at first) that
CIA Brennan was in Kiev however video proof existed and the Whitehouse had to admit that Brennan was their. It is my opinion that
a soft go head to Ukraine intell(with extreme deniability) to bring down a passenger Airline and blame it on Russia.
Despicable man (Obama incl) who could easy resolve who fired the missile as the satellite photos were/have/or never be
made public as it would show a completely different story as to the one they are spinning. It's the old Sherlock Holmes 'the dog
who did not bark' is the true reason why satellite footage supposedly blaming evil Russians launching missiles.
That's why Obama went for a whitehouse ( a political document) report instead of full intelligence e report that would
have satellite footage with expert analysis which would show Ukraine culpability.
With the spliced tape ( why would you need one if the Rebels really did it/ release time/tape, hours after planes destruction.
So pre planned with the usual suspects.....
I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who
traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded
as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack.
"... One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the area. ..."
One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine
either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the
area.
As a Dutchman which country suffers the most is only one thing important: Who did it?
We
want to know and bring them to justice. Complete families where shot out of the sky with 80
children on board. Words can not not describe how their loved ones feel.
The Iranian Airbus was also in a recognized air corridor used by civil aviation, and its IFF
showed it was both climbing and traveling at a speed which strongly suggested it was a civil
aircraft. The VINCENNES had positioned itself underneath an aviation corridor, so that
aircraft traveling in a recognized airlane on their legitimate business would appear to be
closing the cruiser. The search/acquisition radar on the F14 was the AN/AWG-9 – its
electronic signature is extremely distinctive and looks nothing like the search/nav radar on
the Airbus. It would be impossible to confuse the two. Sailors who claim they genuinely
confused the Airbus with an F14 should not be allowed inside an operations room ever again,
because it would be inexcusable incompetence.
Additionally, when the ship's weapon-control acquisition radar locked on to the target in
preparation for firing, it would have indicated the target was climbing and not descending
– its beam constantly 'paints' the target and registers any change in direction or
altitude, since it must guide a missile to it.
But there is no shortage of disastrous situations, often leading to loss of life, in which
the American military claims to have simply made an honest and really unavoidable
mistake.
Yes, it was epic incompetency combined the desire to put on a show followed by a coverup
reminiscent of official investigations of police murder of innocent civilians.
I forgot to mention a surprising claim in the documentary. It indicated that the captain
could have aborted the attack right up to the point of the missiles reaching the target. Do
control systems for anti-aircraft, anti-ship or ballistic missiles have such an abort option?
I was under the impression that once they were launched, there was no turning back. I suppose
if the missiles rely on ground guidance then they could be directed away from the target at
any time. but is this really an option?
Long-range anti-air missile systems like the Standard SM have a 'kill' function which
terminates the engagement (Command Destruct). But what it actually does is terminate
guidance, so that the missile no longer has a target reference. A missile whose engagement is
thus broken will continue to fly until it runs out of propellant, using its last-known target
position as a reference. If the engagement is terminated early, and the missile is not almost
at intercept, there's a good chance it will miss. Fired into a busy civil-air corridor,
though, there's also a chance it will blind-impact something else that was never an intended
target.
Like the Vietnam war as an honest mistake made by good well-meaning men. Right. The US has
not even progressed beyond the denial stage. The fall will be long and hard.
My Lai was the result of frustration in US troops in Vietnam. Basically the "manifest
destiny" of the USA means that it can never do any wrong. In spite of all the hate projection
on Russia and Russians, they do not have such a delusional mindset. In fact, they are
excessively attacked from both within and outside Russia about various historical events. We
see this with the MH17 hoax and the Iran Air 655 (where is the chorus of anti-US voices on
this atrocity?)
Holy shit. Great catch, this is the first I had ever heard about any of this. Works nicely as
a backgrounder also on the reliability of the Dutch government as an impartial investigator
of MH17.
Oh, the Dutch! Israel has a hold over them because of WW2. Their political elite based its
post-war national image on supposed widespread Dutch resistance to the German occupation
(hiding Jews, giving German soldiers wrong directions while being ever so polite, defiant
Queen Wilhelmina leading the government-in-exile). Soldaat van Oranje is the book and film
which puts this myth across so brilliantly.
In the 60s, the Dutch counterculture started to uncover the ugly truth. Prince Bernhard
was an I.G. Farben spy and a Nazi, 75% of Dutch jews perished (highest percentage in western
europe). In Amsterdam, jews were a commodity – when they ran out of money to PAY those
who hid them, they were SOLD to Dutch police collaborators and rounded up for
deportation.
It was always about money. The information in the article below started to emerge when I
was living in Holland. I didn't think anything could shock me, but this – and the real
story of Friedrich Weinreb – certainly did.
This shameful wartime history was a subject only for the Dutch to discuss among
themselves. To the outside world, they promoted Anne Frank, philosemitism, and the habit of
agreeing with every foreigner at his own level of knowledge.
Paul Verhoeven, who made the patriotic-myth film Soldaat van Oranje in 1977, told the tale
of this widespread collaboration, treachery, and end-of-war vindictive score-settling in the
more recent Zwartboek in 2006. Both films are well worth watching.
I'm speechless. Probably the same Thyssen family which is currently half of Thyssen-Krupp: I
seem to remember reading that Krupp was investigated for war crimes over Krupp Motor Works.
There is an excellent book written in the 60's about Krupp. As a matter of fact there are two
well known such books apparently, but I've only read William Manchester's "The Arms of Krupp"
which traces the family line back to the 17th century. It's definitely a product of its time,
both in terms of style and presentation, and in terms of perspective, but with that in mind
it does an excellent job of conveying the essence of the Krupp history, from its humble
beginnings, to the family's complicity with Hitler, all the way to the Krupp family's loss of
control of the firm in the late 60's, which the author curiously connects, at least
marginally, to a form of "private Ostpolitik" on part of the firm in looking to sell large
amounts of machinery to the DDR. Its a fine piece of narrative history.
Wow, confirms my impression that ALL of Western Europe was basically pro-Nazi and fit quite
well into the broader Reich.
Exceptions and honorable resistance coming in only onesies and twosies.
As far as I know, the only truly large scale grass roots resistance to the Nazis were in the
Soviet Union and Serbia. As for the rest of Europe, the "conquest" by Germany was little more
than an upper management shakeup at worst or, more typically, a friendly management takeover.
I am also surprised but not really (does that make sense)? The foundational value of Western
Europe is racism, class and divine rights of the elite. Nevertheless, it is shocking to learn
how those "values" are applied and how the truth is suppressed; least the peasants raise
their heads from their iPhones.
' During later stages of the flight test program, flutter testing showed that the wings
suffered oscillation under certain conditions. This difficulty was partly solved by reducing
the stiffness of some wing components. However, a particularly severe high-speed flutter
problem was solved only by inserting depleted uranium counterweights as ballast in the
outboard engine nacelles of the early 747s.[54] This measure caused anxiety when these
aircraft crashed, for example El Al Flight 1862 at Amsterdam in 1992 with 282 kilograms (622
lb) of uranium in the tailplane (horizontal stabilizer) '
So, all Boeing 747 jets contain some depleted uranium as ballast in their wings and the
engines in the wings, and in their tails. Gulp,
Can anyone imagine if a Russian civilian airliner had resorted to a similar solution? Flying
Chernobyls! Must be banned from Western airports!
About 4% of all 747s have crashed or otherwise suffered damage beyond repair. That is a
lot of depleted uranium. NATO used a great deal of DU in its attack on Serbia as well. Per
Wikipdia regarding health effects:
The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of concerns about potential
long-term health effects.[5][6] Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and
numerous other systems can be affected by exposure to uranium, a toxic metal.[7] The
biological half-life (the average time it takes for the human body to eliminate half the
amount in the body) for uranium is about 15 days.[8] The aerosol or spallation frangible
powder produced by impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially
contaminate wide areas around the impact sites, leading to possible inhalation by human
beings.[9]
A 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence
is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to
DU."[10]
There is hysteria about lead in paint and in gasoline. But somehow uranium is not harmful.
Freaking clowns. If you are going to worry about lead, then you better start worrying about
other toxic heavy metals such as uranium.
Don't forget also that Amsterdam Airport Schiphol was also the place where the Underpants
bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab boarded a plane bound for Michigan back in December 2009.
The company in charge of airport security at AAS then was ICTS whose subsidiary Huntleigh
USA was responsible for airport security at Boston's Logan International Airport on 11
September 2001.
IIRC, the Underpants bomber did not have a valid passport and had other travel issues as
well. A US lawyer who happened to witness the brouhaha swore in an affidavit that the
authorities, nevertheless, allowed him to board the plane without a passport.
Having traveled through Schipol airport many times, I can say that the authorities give
the appearance of being very security conscious. For example, they almost always interview
every passenger on US bound flights. If you appear "nervous", the questioning intensifies. I
can not imagine them allowing anyone on the plane without a valid passport. Presumably, US
authorities were contacted to confirm the individual would be granted entry. So the security
failure (if that what is was) included the US. More likely, it was something else.
First there was the Shoe Bomber, after which the TSA acquired ever more powers, and people
had to start taking off their shoes at the airport.
Conspiracy theory: The Underpants Bomber was also an inside job. The plan was to stage a fake
terrorist attack, so that the TSA could force people to start taking their underpants
off.
This plan would have worked, but too many important people drew the line at taking off their
underpants.
Actually, what appeared right after the Underwear Bomber was the Rapiscan full-body scanner.
It did not work at all for its designed purpose, and was easy to fool; moreover, and despite
TSA's fervent promises that people's privacy would be respected, and it was not possible to
preserve body images after the person had passed through the scanner, those were lies.
Probably few were surprised to discover that, as lying has become expected behavior for
federal agencies, and all of them do it all the time. Cynicism is a growth industry.
Yup. Every new terror attack led to more infringements of personal liberties and
ever-increasing powers for the TSA and Federal Government. It's either (1) a series of
false-flag conspiracies; or, at best, (2) locking the barn door after the horse has already
escaped.
And that seems to be the theme with modern-day British criminal incidents which are blamed on
Russia – all the evidence is destroyed. Perhaps that's why the 'incredibly-toxic nerve
agent' vehicle was chosen; so that wholesale destruction of all the major evidence would not
seem so odd. And don't think it hasn't been noticed.
Consider the slapdash investigation also of MH17, in which Ukraine was allowed to get away
with shelling the wreckage for days – although there was no strategic value to the
crash site – and was still given a seat on the investigative board and unfettered
(probably unsupervised) access to the evidence, as well as a veto over the publication of any
findings. Graham Phillips documented the complete disinterest of the investigative body in
pieces of wreckage found in woods and other cover by area residents. Contrast that with the
shoulder-to-shoulder meticulous search of neighbouring woodlands in the Lockerbie bombing,
which resulted in the 'discovery' of a tiny fragment of circuit board, ostensibly from the
timing device, which fingered Libya as the culprit.
The FBI operative who identified the fragment as a piece of a circuit board which was
supplied only to Libya and the Stasi, the linchpin of the case against Megrahi, was later
revealed to be a fraud who had given false evidence in American murder trials and had little
or no scientific qualifications. The British and US governments have a demonstrated record as
fixers.
Energy was a part of it, but I think MH17 was more to do with keeping Russia separated
from Europe. Russia and Europe coming together according to the grand chessboard as something
that must not be allowed to occur under any circumstance.
The US was trying to get EU to sanction Russia for some time. MH17 was what was required
to push EU to sanction Russia. I have the timeline of events.
From the 17th we were swamped with propaganda, victims bodies left laying in the sun, nasty
Russia not letting anyone to the site, bellingcrap tracking how the Russians brought the
launcher in, ect ect.
This went on for two weeks, all this time US pushing EU to sanction Russia. Around the
29th-30th EU agreed to sanction Russia. On the 30th, the Ukrainian rada passed a law allowing
the Australian and Dutch official teams to go to the site. On the night of the 30th, possibly
on the 31st, before the official teams got to the site, the Ukies pushed an armored column up
through Torez and into the crash zone. Sporadic fight occurred in and around the crash site
from that time, until the Ukies were cleaned up at the Debaltseve cauldron. It was only then
the the wreckage was lifted and carried away for reconstruction. For the last few months the
Ukies had intermittently shelled the site from Debaltseve. No complaints to the Ukies from
Australia nor Netherlands. It was all called Russian aggression.
Have read a bit of the Grand Chessboard now. The section titled Eurasia and also much of
the conclusion section.
My takeaway at the moment is that was the era of Economic hegemony backed up by the export
of US style democracy. Energy under that system was used if required to keep nations down,
stop groups of nations forming together, basically prevent challenges to US economic
hegemony. Wars were fought, countries destroyed to ensure the usage of the US dollar. Energy
was just one of a number of tools used.
What I think the US is attempting for the coming era - Global energy dominance - is to
simply squat on a major source of oil and hold much of Eurasia to ransom.
Doing it this way, the massive US military deployed throughout the world is no longer
required, just small covert ops to sabotage competitors. Most of the old institutions needed
to manage hegemony no longer required.
It is well worth the read, in general, and it directly discusses your Global Energy Dominance
thesis. It also brings it up to date compared to my tracing it back to the 1990s, if not the
1940s.
"In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package' .
effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other
companies before it could enter the EU."
Obviously, this raised the price of Russian gas to European countries.
"Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the
US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and
Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect
meanwhile far more realistic."
"As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations,
noted in a newspaper interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty
difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian
economy'."
And these sanctions were specifically aimed at the Russian energy industry.
"The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian
banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the
necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally."
So here we have a concerted program, from at least 2009, intended to reduce Russia's role
in the Global Energy market, and set up US LNG to compete directly with the RF.
I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know
what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my
suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War
Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of
wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against
humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.
In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in
absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair,
convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the
unlawful invasion of Iraq.
In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice
President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant
Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and
former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes,
specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the
International Court of Justice in the Hague.
In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the
Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against
humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur
War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and
Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little
known and were never reported by the mainstream media.
I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also
includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are
looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even
factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or
killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other
barriers.'
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or
an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "
The key sentence.
Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of
France.
This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of
the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call
back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.
Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that
the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the
blame'.
It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust
propaganda.
Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts.
One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'.
As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.
I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that suspect Ukraine
is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.
But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a
passenger plane ?
Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.
In a Dutch talkshow the chairman of the Dutch airline pilots organisation Benno Baksteen
mentioned casually that aboard MH370 there were two groups of Chinese technicians specialised
in making planes invisible for radar.
Nowhere in the media this was picked up, Benno Baksteen never again was on tv, and, as far as
I know, he's no longer chairman.
My theory on MH17: control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, this is
possible since early 2001.
It was directed direction Antarctica, until is crashed, lack of fuel.
The second pilot tried to use his mobile phone to make contact, however, this is not
possible, a passenger plane flies simply to fast, there was a connection, but before he could
say anything the plane was too far away.
Also one of the Sept 11 problems.
So, following the old question 'who benefitted', it is clear for me who the suspect is.
Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key
facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's
report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by
him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch
Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on
the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like
someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling
case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and
his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
" DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone
not named. "
A weird compelling case.
They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised
here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it.
Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is
lacking.
I am not in the least convinced.
The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most
to sanctions.
About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as
shield for its bombers.
But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the
cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch
chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it
possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two
months later?"
That is extremely puzzling – indeed, inexplicable – if you believe that the
object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.
As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is
the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that
is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments.
(The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was
guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).
The real object of the Western elites – as embodied in the statements of their
servants in government and the media – is to control public opinion. In this endeavour,
precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances –
they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some
desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a
wicked soulless murderer, and so on.
That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating
memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and
anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.
Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage
is not only unsurprising – it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely
unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.
Wow what a tremendous article from a bona fide scholar
I have not yet seen anywhere such an accurate and succinct overview of the geopolitical
history of the post-1991 era anywhere
There is something that is not clear though the author mentions a 'land for gas' deal
discussed by Putin and Merkel on the sidelines of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil
' Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a
massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine '
I have no idea what this actually means an 'economic rehabilitation plan for whom ? and
what does 'normalization' of Crimea's status mean recognition of Crimea's rejoining the
Russian Federation ?
"... Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17. ..."
"... Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. ..."
"... The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go. ..."
"... To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which 'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure. ..."
"... The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid. ..."
"... If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. ..."
"... Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later ..."
"... weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. ..."
"... Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. ..."
"... The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. ..."
"... 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' ..."
"... Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic. ..."
"... The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. ..."
"... Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure. ..."
"... cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse ..."
"... In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large. ..."
Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine,
Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last,
the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and
composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and paradoxically, given its possible
involvement, Ukraine, presented its second progress report. Like the first report in September
2016, it took the form of a press conference, with video animations supporting the
investigation's findings.
This time there was even less to report; the main conclusion was that
elements from the Russian 53rd Buk missile brigade were the culprits, a claim already made by
the London-based investigative group Bellingcat two years before.
In February 2016 that
assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the
core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?
The JIT press conference was immediately followed by a formal declaration on the part of the
Dutch and Australian governments that held Russia responsible. However, JIT member Malaysia
dissociated itself from the accusation, whilst Belgium has remained silent.
The obviously
over-hasty conclusion, on the heels of the alleged Skripal nerve gas incident in Salisbury and
the likewise contested Syrian government gas attack on jihadist positions in Douma, all point
in the same direction: Putin's Russia must be kept under fire and there is no time to wait for
a court verdict.
In my book Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War. Prism of Disaster (Manchester
University Press), I have refrained from entering the slippery terrain of making claims about
who pulled the trigger, intentionally or by accident, in the late afternoon of 17 July, or even
which type of weapon was used. For the downing of the Malaysian plane has become part of a
propaganda war that was already heating up prior to the catastrophe. Instead the book is about
what we do know about the events surrounding it, in the preceding months, weeks, and days,
indeed even on the day itself. Subsequent events have only underlined that it is this context
that lends meaning to the tragedy.
Refocusing US Supremacy After the Soviet Collapse
Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned,
primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the
days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the
predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for
commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the
continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state
sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is
therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the
states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and
maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this
perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including
the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17.
Right from the Soviet collapse in 1991, the US global perspective was articulated in several
new strategic doctrines. The first and perhaps foundational one is the Wolfowitz Doctrine,
named after Paul Wolfowitz, undersecretary of defence in the Bush Sr. administration, who
commissioned a Defence Planning Guidance for Fiscal 1994-'99 (DPG) of 1992. It
proclaims the United States the world's sole superpower, which must remain ahead of all
possible contenders in arms technology and never again accept military parity, as with the USSR
during the Cold War. The newly self-confident European Union, too, was obliquely warned that
the US alone would handle global policing.
Additional doctrines, specifying on which grounds armed US intervention might be undertaken
and justified, added elements such as humanitarian intervention (a Carnegie Endowment report of
1992, Self-Determination in the New World Order ); it was applied in Yugoslavia and
again in Libya. Next, the'War on Terror', originally floated at Israeli Likud/US Neocon
conferences between 1979 and 1984, was revived after the collapse of the USSR as the 'Clash of
Civilizations' by Cold War strategist Samuel Huntington; Afghanistan and Iraq stand as
monuments of the application of this doctrine. Finally, Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand
Chessboard of 1997 specifically dealt with reorganising the former USSR, including
Ukraine.
Through the different episodes, NATO was transformed into a global policing structure
serving the interests of Atlantic capital. 'Out of area operations', unthinkable in the Yalta
epoch, were first tried out against the Bosnian Serbs in the mid-1990s. The enlargement of the
alliance into the former Soviet bloc, which began around that time too, was obviously motivated
to prevent European departures from US tutelage, hence its bold forward surge. Already in 1994,
Ukraine became the first former Soviet republic to join the Partnership for Peace, the newly
created waiting room for NATO membership. To quell Russian concerns about the advancing West,
the NATO-Russia Founding Act of 1997 laid down that no nuclear weapons and permanent troop
deployments would take place in new member states. Yet Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and
Moldova not long afterwards joined a low-key organisation of former Soviet republics (after the
initials, GUAM), another oblique link up with NATO.
Mobilising Georgia and Ukraine against Resurgent Russia
Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational
capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. Under
his successor, Vladimir Putin, the country began to mutate back to a society led by a directive
state, assisted by rising oil prices. After the United States unilaterally withdrew from the
Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002 and announced a missile defence system deployed in the
CzechRepublic, Poland, and Rumania, Russia shifted to a more robust international position.
The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West
was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to
prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now
made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year
later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go.
Yet even a colour revolution means little if there is no accompanying make-over of the
fundamental state/society relation. Hence, the incoming policy planning director at the US
State Department, Stanford professor Stephen Krasner, and Carlos Pascual, former US ambassador
in Kiev, developed a comprehensive regime change doctrine in 2004. This would prove a key
element in the subsequent Ukraine intervention. To ensure that countries incorporated into
the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner
devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which
'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by
now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure.
At the Munich Security Conference in January 2007, Putin reminded his audience of the
promises made to Gorbachev in 1991 not to expand the Atlantic alliance and warned that further
attempts at enlargement (the Baltic states having been included in 2004) would imply great
risks. Yet NATO and the EU were inexorably pressing forward. At the Bucharest NATO summit in
April 2008 the Americans made the offer of NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, only to have
the offer vetoed by Germany and France. Possibly to force the issue, the pro-Western president
brought to power by the Rose Revolution in Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, armed and encouraged
by the US and Israel, later that year embarked on a military adventure to recapture the
breakaway province of South Ossetia. It ended in a complete debacle, as a Russian army stood
ready in North Ossetia to deal the invaders a major, if very costly, blow. This, then, was what
Richard Sakwa calls, 'the war to stop NATO enlargement'. From now on, every post-Soviet
republic tempted to join the Atlantic alliance would have to reckon with Russian protection for
groups resisting such integration, irrespective of whether it concerned actual Russians or any
other of the almost two hundred nationalities of the former USSR.
The EU-Russian Energy Equation and Ukraine
The gas from Russia that feeds Europe today was discovered back in the 1960s; the Friendship
oil pipeline was built in 1964 and the Soyuz, Urengoi and Yamal pipelines followed after West
Germany started purchasing Soviet gas. The link-up culminated in 1980 with the contract for a
gas pipeline from Urengoi in north Siberia to Bavaria, signed by a heavy-industry consortium
headed by Deutsche Bank.
After the collapse of the USSR, Russian gas had to pass through the pipeline grid of
independent Ukraine, which in the meantime had become the prey of rival clans of oligarchs. For
most of them, gas was the key source of rapid enrichment -- directly, as in the case of
subsequent prime minister Yuliya Timoshenko, 'the Gas Princess', or indirectly, by supplying
steel pipes for gas transport, as in the case of president Leonid Kuchma's son-in-law, Victor
Pinchuk, the 'Pipeline King'. The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different
oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply
from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways
to bypass the Ukrainian grid.
After Putin had come to power, he disciplined the Russian oligarchs as part of the
restoration of state sovereignty. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the energy oligarch and richest of all
Russian billionaires at the time, at the time was buying support in the Duma to build a
trans-Siberian pipeline to China; whilst negotiating with ExxonMobil and Chevron about US
participation in his Yukos concern, which he planned to merge with Sibneft into the world's
largest oil company. In 2005 he was convicted to a long prison sentence. Yukos was brought back
into the Russian patrimony via a proxy construction involving state-owned Rosneft and Gazprom,
as part of broader subordination of the economy to the state.
Gazprom meanwhile began building alliances to avoid future disruption of supplies via
Ukraine and secure its European market. In 2005 it agreed with the outgoing government of
Gerhard Schröder to build a pipeline across the Baltic directly to Germany, 'Nord Stream',
with a consortium of German companies. Schröder was made the chairman of the board of the
joint venture, Achimgaz, and two years later, a South Stream pipeline across the Black Sea to
Bulgaria was contracted with ENI of Italy. It was to be extended into south-eastern Europe as
far as Austria. In this way Gazprom and the Russian state were outmanoeuvring various EU
projects for pipelines aimed at by-passing Russia. Indeed it was the EU's plan to use a Nabucco
pipeline across Turkey to connect to the Caspian energy reserves that prompted the $40 billion
South Stream project. Romano Prodi, prime minister of Italy, who first discussed South Stream
with Putin in late 2006, was offered the chairmanship, which he declined, perhaps in the
knowledge the project would become highly contested.
The Eurasian connection by now posed a direct threat to the cohesion of the enlarged
Atlantic bloc. Besides Nord Stream and South Stream, Gazprom's collaboration with NIOC of Iran
and a joint venture with ENI in Libya set all alarm bells ringing in Washington. Already in May
2006, a few months after the gas shutdown to Ukraine, the US Senate unanimously adopted a
resolution calling on NATO to protect the energy security of its members and have it develop a
diversification strategy away from Russia. Senator Richard Lugar in a much-noted speech prior
to the NATO summit in Riga, Latvia, in November 2006, argued in favour of designating the
manipulation of the energy supply as a 'weapon' that can activate Article 5 of the NATO treaty
(common defence).
In a report to the European Parliament in 2008, the director of the EurasianPolicyCenter of
the Hudson Institute in the US recommended that the EU should assist in liberalising and
modernising the Ukrainian grid instead of supporting South Stream. Tension in the Black Sea
area, her report noted candidly, might serve the purpose of blocking that pipeline altogether.
However, after the 2010 election of president Victor Yanukovych, the front man of the powerful
eastern and southern oligarchs, the lease of Russia's Crimean naval base at Sebastopol, home of
its Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, so the prospects for stirring up unrest there
were mitigated by Moscow's enduring naval preponderance.
Regime Change in Kiev
One aspect of the resurgence of a sovereign Russia was the plan for a Eurasian economic
union to rebuild relations with former Soviet republics (Ukraine obtained observer status early
on). The EU's Eastern Partnership was a direct response. It was offered to former Soviet
republics in 2008, in a gesture that signalled that Europe now effectively acted as a
subcontractor to the larger anti-Russian design drafted in Washington. Concretely, the EU
offered Ukraine and other former Soviet republics an Association Agreement that also included
provisions for the country's alignment on NATO security policy, besides a neoliberal make-over
in the spirit of the Krasner-Pascual doctrine. The envisaged reforms would be devastating for
the country's existing power structure, not least for the Donbass oligarchs whose front man was
Yanukovych. Their heavy industry assets would be swept away by EU competition, the country
turned into an agricultural supplier, and Russian gas cut off.
Hence, when both the EU and Russia sought to win over Yanukovych to join their respective
blocs and Brussels ruled out the triangular arrangement by which the Ukrainian president had
hoped to postpone the choice, he could not but step back from signing the EU Association
Agreement in November 2013 and accept a Russian counteroffer. By then, 'Europe' had become a
code word for an end to oligarchic rapaciousness, in which Yanukovych and his sons had become
involved as well. The president's decision triggered mass demonstrations and occupations, which
this time included an armed insurrection by Ukrainian ultra-nationalists in the historically
anti-Russian west of the country. It created the space for actual fascists to hijack the
protests and prepare a coup. By their use of deadly force at the Maidan central square
(ascribed by the coup plotters and in the West to the riot police), the Ukrainian ultras
demonstrated they were ready to kill their own compatriots to achieve their aims.
To prevent the situation from getting out of hand completely, the foreign ministers of
Germany, France and Poland flew to Kiev on 20 February 2014. However, whilst they negotiated a
deal with Yanukovych and the opposition, the US and other NATO ambassadors met with Andriy
Parubiy, the co-founder of the fascist party of Ukraine and former head of its militia, Patriot of Ukraine . Parubiy, today the speaker of the Kiev parliament, was in command
of the armed gangs at the Maidan; two days later these took power in the capital, installing a
government of Ukrainian nationalist stripe, selected by US diplomats. Parubiy was appointed
secretary of the National Security and Defence Council (NSDC), a key post overseeing all
military and intelligence operations, which he continued to hold until three weeks after the
downing of MH17. With the Russian-Ukrainian half of the country effectively disenfranchised,
the coup was responded to by the secession of Crimea and an armed insurrection in the Donbass.
Stirrings of revolt in Odessa and Mariupol would be suppressed with deadly violence, in which
Parubiy and other far right figures were directly involved.
Confronting the BRICS in Ukraine
From late March onwards the war party in the United States and NATO began to elaborate a
strategy that would make Ukraine the testing ground for a trial of strength with Russia and
China. The secession of Crimea and its re-incorporation into the Russian Federation was
exploited to evoke the spectre of an impending Russian invasion on several fronts. General
Philip Breedlove, commander of US Eucom (European Command, one of nine regional US military
commands spanning the globe) and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Saceur), coordinated the
Western position with General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Saceur at the time of the Yugoslavia
wars. Clark was already advising Kiev forces in eastern Ukraine before the Donbass had actually
risen in revolt. On 12April he asked Breedlove whether the NATO commander could not arrange a
statement blaming Moscow for the violence because ' if the Ukrainians lose control of the
narrative , the Russians will see it as an open door'. Clark then elaborated on the
general geopolitical situation, giving further insights into why the war party in the US
believed that Ukraine was to be 'held' and chosen as a battle ground to confront Russia and
China. No time was wasted on market democracy here. Claiming that 'Putin has read US inaction
in Georgia and Syria as US "weakness",' Clark went on to explain that
China is watching closely. China will have four aircraft carriers and airspace dominance
in the Western Pacific within 5 years, if current trends continue. And if we let Ukraine
slide away, it definitely raises the risks of conflict in the Pacific. For, China will ask,
would the US then assert itself for Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, the South China
Sea? If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the
Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. Neither the Baltics nor the Balkans will
easily resist the political disruptions empowered by a resurgent Russia. And what good is a
NATO "security guarantee" against internal subversion? And then the US will face a much
stronger Russia, a crumbling NATO, and [a] major challenge in the Western Pacific. Far
easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later .
On the weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian
capital. The Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO, so called because the use of military
force within the country is only warranted under that label) began right after Brennan's visit;
Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were
poised to join the fight. Since NATO had earlier implored Yanukovych not to use force
against (armed) demonstrators, Moscow now asked the alliance to restrain the coup leaders in
turn. But according to foreign minister Lavrov, the answer they got was that 'NATO would ask
them to use force proportionately'.
In fact even the oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, elected president on 25 May 2014 to provide a
veneer of legitimacy to the coup regime, proved unable to restrain the hardliners. On 30 June,
following a four-hour NSDC meeting with Parubiy, interior minister Avakov, and others whose
armed followers were demonstrating outside, Poroshenko declared that the ceasefire would be
lifted and a new offensive launched. Three days later NATO naval manoeuvres in the Black Sea
commenced with US participation and with electronic warfare a key component. On the ground,
Kiev's forces made rapid progress, apparently drawing a ring around the large rebel city of
Donetsk. NATO had its own concerns: an upcoming summit in Wales in September was expected to
capitalise on the trope of a 'Russian invasion', vital after the Afghanistan debacle, and
dovetailing with the emerging contest with the BRICS bloc.
The BRICS, coined first as a banker's gimmick, were never more than a loose collection of
'(re-) emerging economies', but from Washington's perspective, sovereign entities not
submitting to neoliberal global governance are unacceptable. So when on 16 July, the BRICS
heads of state, hosted by the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff (removed by a rightwing
conspiracy in May 2016), signed the statute establishing a New Development Bank, or BRICS bank,
as a direct challenge to the US and Western-dominated World Bank and IMF, the US imposed new
sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, specifically targeting the energy link with the EU. The
creation of an equivalent of the World Bank with a capital of $100 billion with a reserve
currency pool of the same size (an equivalent of the IMF), laid the groundwork of a contender
pole in the global political economy challenging the West's austerity regime frontally -- or so
it seemed at the time.
Still in Brazil before flying back to Moscow, Russian president Putin on the fringes of the
football world cup finals also agreed with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to pursue a
comprehensive Land for gas deal. Its tentative provisions included normalising the
status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate
for Ukraine. However, a special European Council meeting convened on the 16th could not reach
agreement on whether the EU should follow the American lead this time, since countries with
export interests to Russia and dependent on its gas, were balking. Instead, the Council
stressed the EU's commitment 'to pursue trilateral talks on the conditions of gas supply from
the Russian Federation to Ukraine' in order to 'safeguard the security of supply and transit of
natural gas through Ukraine.'
The Downing of Flight MH17 and South Stream
The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how
remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local
circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that
day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and
the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable
decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the
actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt
about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum.
Former secretary of state and then-presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton in a TV interview on
the 18th called for making 'Russia pay the price' once its culpability had been established.
Her to-do list for the EU included, one, 'toughen sanctions'; two, find alternatives to
Gazprom, and third, 'do more in concert with us to support the Ukrainians'. The 'Land for gas'
negotiations were shelved and on the 22nd Europe dropped the remaining hesitations when it
underwrote the US sanctions targeting Russia's role as an energy supplier. As Mark Leonard,
founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper
interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find
sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' .
In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package'. It does
not permit gas to be transported to the EU by the company producing it, effectively forcing
Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it
could enter the EU. Nord Stream had still been exempted from EU competition rules, but the
projected South Stream was not, never mind that most contracts with Gazprom had been signed
before the Third Energy Package came into force. Even at the time of the Kiev coup,
commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian
deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European
market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic.
The Crimean secession and incorporation into the Russian Federation obviously played its own
role here. Crimea is a historically Russian region; having been assigned to Ukraine by a whim
of Soviet party leader Khrushchev in 1954, it never reconciled itself to being part of an
independent Ukraine. After the nationalist coup in late February, the status of the Russian
naval base in Sebastopol was in the balance. In 1991, the Black Sea had been a Soviet/bloc
inland sea, with one NATO country (Turkey) bordering it. Now there were two more NATO/EU
countries and two pro-Western, aspiring NATO members on its littoral. So when one week after
the coup, three former Ukrainian Presidents, Kravchuk, Kuchma, and Yushchenko, called on the
coup government in Kiev to cancel the agreement under which the lease of Sebastopol, home to
the Russian Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, the question of who would be able to
project naval power over the Black Sea became acute. The question now was whether Russia would
be able to provide cover for a large-scale project such as South Stream, or not.
South Stream itself came into the firing line directly. The European Parliament, which never
raised the issue of why the February agreement with Yanukovych the EU brokered had been
sidelined by the coup, on 17 April 2014 adopted a non-binding resolution opposing the South
Stream gas pipeline and recommended a search for alternative sources of gas. On 28 April, the
United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian
officials, including Igor Sechin, the CEO of Rosneft, the Russian state oil company, as well as
Gennady Timchenko, whose Volga Group controls Stroytransgaz, the company entrusted with
building the Bulgarian section of South Stream. Nevertheless the Bulgarian parliament approved
South Stream two weeks after the reincorporation of Crimea, circumventing the EU's anti-trust
legislation by renaming the pipeline a 'sea-land connection'.The European Commission then
instructed Bulgaria to stop work on South Stream and proceeded to cut off tens of millions of
much-needed regional development funds, whilst the US ambassador warned Bulgarian companies
against working with Timchenko. A final visit of US Senators John McCain and Ron Johnson, in
combination with other punitive measures then led to the cancellation in early June. As Eric
Draitser commented at the time, 'South Stream has become one of the primary battlegrounds in
the economic war that the West is waging against Russia'.
The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian
banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the
necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. Putin earlier had hinted at
moving the transit of gas for the EU to non-European countries; in August, it was reported
there was a Plan B in the works to export via Turkey. On 1 December 2014, during a state visit
to Ankara, the Russian president announced that in light of Western sanctions and the refusal
of construction permits in the EU, South Stream would be replaced by a 'Turkish Stream'
pipeline, besides the existing Blue Stream link. However, in November 2015, a Turkish F-16 shot
down a Russian fighter jet over northern Syria, throwing relations between Moscow and Ankara
into a deep crisis and entailing the cancellation of Turkish Stream. This was only overcome
after the July 2016 coup attempt against Erdoğan, in which Russia sided with the Turkish
president, possibly even warning him in advance. Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian
jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup
attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided
the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we
don't know for sure.
Regime Change in Moscow?
The MH17 disaster occurred in the context of a deep crisis, in which capitalist discipline
as imposed from its historic epicentre in the West, has become primarily predatory, relying to
an ever-greater extent on violence.
Speculative financial operations in combination with the
'War on Terror' have spread economic risk and repression at home, war and regime change abroad.
Human survival itself has been turned into a global gamble played out over the head of the
affected populations for private gain.
The West, led by the effectively bankrupt United States,
increasingly relies on force to sabotage the formation of any alternative, something its own
social formation can no longer bring forth. Even the most promising, potentially revolutionary
IT and media developments coming out of Silicon Valley have been mortgaged by a planetary
project of communications surveillance to safeguard US imperial positions.
Back in the 1980s, when it launched the second Cold War, the Reagan administration intended
to destabilise the Soviet bloc and bring about regime change in Moscow. This is also the aim of
the current, new Cold War. A 2015 Chatham House report, 'The Russian Challenge', discusses this
in some detail. Although it concedes that the West cannot have an interest in Russia sliding
into complete anarchy, neither should the Putin presidency be protected 'against change, whether managed or violent '. Therefore, 'whether Putin was ousted by an internal
coup, by illness or by popular unrest , it would nevertheless be sensible for the West to give
further thought to how it might deal with the consequences of regime change in Russia.'
Effective communication with the Russian people and the defence of human values beforehand
would be essential for Western credibility Planning for the future ought, lastly, to
cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the
emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue
with the Russian population, to regime collapse .
The president of the National Endowment for Democracy, Carl Gershman, in a piece for the Washington Post in October 2016 suggested launching a new, sustained anti-Putin
campaign, for which the contract killing of the journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, ten years
earlier, might be used as a vignette.
For such a campaign, George Soros' Open Society Foundation can be trusted to have elaborated
the 'civil society'/colour revolution scenarios, whilst identifying the groups that might be
mobilised for their execution. The OSF plan of action for 2014-17, titled Russia Project
Strategy , identifies Russian intellectuals active in Western academic and opinion
networks, the Russian gay movement, and others as potential levers for civil society protest
against the conservative bloc in power in Moscow. From the OSF documents hacked by the CyberBerkut collective, Alexei Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundation emerges as the key
beneficiary, and discussion portals and liberal media such as Echo of Moscow radio
station, RBK news agency, and the newspaper Vedomosti, as the preferred
channels to disseminate content.
There is no need to repeat that all this is part a powerful offensive to derail the loose
contender bloc around China and Russia, which had constituted itself in the face of Western
aggressiveness and crisis. The seizure of power in Ukraine as well as the secession of Crimea
and the civil war in the east, which has meanwhile cost the lives of more than 13,000 people
and displaced a million, as well as economic warfare against Russia by the US and the EU, have
brought the danger of a large European war several steps closer. Whether the actual downing of
Flight MH17 was an intentional, premeditated act or an accident, whether it involved a jet
attack, an anti-aircraft missile, or both, ultimately cannot be established with certainty. Yet
both the NATO war party and the coup regime in Kiev, which on many occasions has demonstrated
that its ultra-nationalist and fascist antecedents are very much alive, would have been
perfectly capable of such an act and had the means for it. Most importantly, they had the
motive. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the
civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention. If this indeed was their aim, it would
also have served the Atlantic bloc's determined and long-standing commitment to force
continental Europe into an antagonistic relation with Russia.
In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the
Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute
danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also
be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to
contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may
become that of humanity at large.
Kees van der Pijl is a Fellow, Centre for Global Political Economy and Professor
Emeritus of the School of Global Studies at the University of Sussex.
It used to be that the only things one could depend on were "death & taxes." Now of
course we must add to that list the very dependable presence of CIA / State Dept lies
parroted by MSM all over the West. Lies which are endlessly repeated in defiance of all
physical reality and often in direct opposition to actual events in the actual world we live
in.
From the Ukraine coup, to Russia-gate, to the "Assad's gassing his own people" regime
change propaganda, to the totally surreal Alice in Wonderland Skripnal poisoning nonsense in
the U.K, the Western MSM have been as dependable as the rising sun.
They can and do provide
fact-free, evidence-free reporting directly from the bowels of the deep state in support of
the neocolonial West, including unending support for the never ending resort to mass violence
the West relies upon to keep the rest of the planet subjugated -- just as it has for the last
500+ years.
Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international
investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed
for. Russian experts "have been denied access to the investigation," said Putin, while
Russia's arguments are "not taken into consideration" because nobody "is interested in
hearing us out."
Truly sensational new document leak confirms Kiev's direct responsibility for shooting
down the Malesian Airlines flight MH17 in Donbass on July 17, 2014. Ukrainian top secret
official documents show us that the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) was ordered to hide
all evidence from the Ukrainian responsibility and especially everything which could prove
Ukrainian air forces involvement in executed secret state terrorism operation.
The documents are leaked by Ukrainian official to the Sovershenno Sekretno newspaper.
Russian and English translations from the orginal articles are available with copies of the
leaked documents, which show written orders given by Ukrainian top officials concerning
concealing of the operation, shooting down the flight MH17 .
This article first published on July 30, 2014 contradicts the substance of the recently
released Dutch Safety Board Report. We are bringing it to the attention of our readers in
view of the soon to be released BBC TV documentary, which suggests that the MH17 was shot
down by a Ukrainian jet fighter.
Although the Dutch report concluded that the Russian-made BUK surface-to-air missile
with a 9N314M warhead brought down the Boeing 777, it did not mention which side was
responsible for firing the missile (International Business Times, March 8, 2016
The evidence amply confirms that Malaysian Airlines MH17 was not brought down by a
surface to air missile. It was brought down by military aircraft .
Joint Investigation Team Includes, Excludes Surprising Members
With the Dutch leading the investigation, the logic being that the flight originated from
the Netherlands and the majority of the passengers were Dutch, it has formed a Joint
Investigation Team (JIT). At the onset of its creation it seemed obvious that Malaysia would
too be included, considering it lost the second largest number of citizens to the disaster
and the plane itself was registered in Malaysia. Instead, JIT would end up comprised of
Belgium, Ukraine, and Australia, specifically excluding Malaysia.
Joint Investigation Team Includes, Excludes Surprising Members
With the Dutch leading the investigation, the logic being that the flight originated
from the Netherlands and the majority of the passengers were Dutch, it has formed a Joint
Investigation Team (JIT). At the onset of its creation it seemed obvious that Malaysia
would too be included, considering it lost the second largest number of citizens to the
disaster and the plane itself was registered in Malaysia. Instead, JIT would end up
comprised of Belgium, Ukraine , and Australia, specifically excluding Malaysia.
Malaysia was both surprised and has protested its exclusion from JIT , and has
repeatedly expressed a desire to be included directly in the investigation.
I will never understand why Russia was foolish enough to turn the plane's black box over
(with no strings attached) to Dutch authorities. You would think they would have, at the
minimum maintained physical possession, while allowing one or more neutral parties to examine
and publish it's contents.
I have found that these "conspiracy theories" are usually quite simple to solve: verify
that there was a conspiracy verify that there was a cover-up verify that mass media is in the
cover-up
- verify that there was a conspiracy
- verify that there was a cover-up
- verify that mass media is in the cover-up
Then, who can make a cover-up in media?
- the mob, no - the CIA, can try but really
cannot do it long - the US President, like for instance JFK, Nixon, Clinton, no - the ones,
who control the media and suppress publications they do not like, yes
Then only, why?
- the assassination of the president succeeded, so something major in
the US politics changed - only one major thing changed
Solving these problems is easy, but the opponents behave as lawyers in kangaroo courts:
deny everything, play a moron, refer to judicial decision, start repeating childish mumble
like wackawackaconspeeracy.. and so on.
Indeed, as with MH17.
Literally overnight EU sanctions against Russia were possible.
And, as with Kennedy, what exactly happened, we do not know, and, I fear, will never
know.
On the afternoon of the day of the disaster prime minister Rutte phoned vice prime minister
Asscher, who was on vacation in the south of France.
Rutte asked him to call back on a landline 'so that Russia could not listen in'.
Fool Asscher told this in a tv show.
Nobody has asked Asscher what was so secret a few hours after the disaster that the
Russians should not know.
Why was the Diana 'accident' ?
I suppose to prevent that the future British king would have a Muslim stepfather.
Why was Anna Lyndh killed accidentally ?
She was to be the next Swedish prime minister, in favor of a EU economic boycott of
Israel
Why was the phoney Hess suicided ?
Had he talked WWII history would have to be rewritten.
Why was Kelly suicided ?
He knew quite well Blair's nonsense about the 45 minutes WMD's
The Saker publishes some interesting news re the MH17 tragedy:
"SBU [Security Service of Ukraine] orders to destroy all evidence of the conducted special
operation MH17″
http://thesaker.is/sbu-orders-to-destroy-all-evidence-of-the-conducted-special-operation-mh17/
by Scott Humor: " If you want to know my opinion that hasn't changed since 2014. The Boeing
flight MH17 was shot down by the Ukrainian air force fighter jets, but not necessarily
piloted by Ukrainian pilots. It was a CIA and NATO operation to frame Russia. Most likely the
Dutch government was a part of this operation. Now, they are trying to hang all the dogs on
Waltzman -Poroshenko, because neither the Dutch monarchs, nor the CIA would fancy to be
implicated in this crime."
When the media is controlled by people responsible for false flag operation chances to use investigation to
discredit this false flag operation, no matter how many evidence they have is close to zero
In other word false flag operation is perfect weapon for the "sole superpower" and due to this status entail very little
risks.
Notable quotes:
"... Today's false flag operations are generally carried out by intelligence agencies and non-government actors including terrorist groups, but they are only considered successful if the true attribution of an action remains secret. ..."
"... False flags can be involved in other sorts of activity as well. The past year's two major alleged chemical attacks carried out against Syrian civilians that resulted in President Donald Trump and associates launching 160 cruise missiles are pretty clearly false flag operations carried out by the rebels and terrorist groups that controlled the affected areas at the time. ..."
"... Because the rebels succeeded in convincing much of the world that the Syrian government had carried out the attacks, one might consider their false flag efforts to have been extremely successful. ..."
"... The remedy against false flag operations such as the recent one in Syria is, of course, to avoid taking the bait and instead waiting until a thorough and objective inspection of the evidence has taken place. The United States, Britain and France did not do that, preferring instead to respond to hysterical press reports by "doing something." If the U.N. investigation of the alleged attack turns up nothing, a distinct possibility, it is unlikely that they will apologize for having committed a war crime. ..."
"... The other major false flag that has recently surfaced is the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury England on March 4 th . Russia had no credible motive to carry out the attack and had, in fact, good reasons not to do so. ..."
"... Unfortunately, May proved wrong and the debate ignited over her actions, which included the expulsion of twenty-three Russian diplomats, has done her severe damage. Few now believe that Russia actually carried out the poisoning and there is a growing body of opinion suggesting that it was actually a false flag executed by the British government or even by the CIA. ..."
"... The lesson that should be learned from Syria and Skripal is that if "an incident" looks like it has no obvious motive behind it, there is a high probability that it is a false flag. ..."
False Flag is a concept that goes back centuries. It was considered to be a legitimate ploy
by the Greeks and Romans, where a military force would pretend to be friendly to get close to
an enemy before dropping the pretense and raising its banners to reveal its own affiliation
just before launching an attack. In the sea battles of the eighteenth century among Spain,
France and Britain hoisting an enemy flag instead of one's own to confuse the opponent was
considered to be a legitimate ruse de guerre , but it was only "honorable" if one
reverted to one's own flag before engaging in combat.
Today's false flag operations are generally carried out by intelligence agencies and
non-government actors including terrorist groups, but they are only considered successful if
the true attribution of an action remains secret. There is nothing honorable about them as
their intention is to blame an innocent party for something that it did not do. There has been
a lot of such activity lately and it was interesting to learn by way of a leak that the Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA) has developed a capability to mimic the internet fingerprints of
other foreign intelligence services. That means that when the media is trumpeting news reports
that the Russians or Chinese hacked into U.S. government websites or the sites of major
corporations, it could actually have been the CIA carrying out the intrusion and making it look
like it originated in Moscow or Beijing. Given that capability, there has been considerable
speculation in the alternative media that it was actually the CIA that interfered in the 2016
national elections in the United States.
False flags can be involved in other sorts of activity as well. The past year's two major
alleged chemical attacks carried out against Syrian civilians that resulted in President Donald
Trump and associates launching 160 cruise missiles are pretty clearly false flag operations
carried out by the rebels and terrorist groups that controlled the affected areas at the time.
The most recent reported attack on April 7th might not have occurred at all
according to doctors and other witnesses who were actually in Douma. Because the rebels
succeeded in convincing much of the world that the Syrian government had carried out the
attacks, one might consider their false flag efforts to have been extremely successful.
The remedy against false flag operations such as the recent one in Syria is, of course, to
avoid taking the bait and instead waiting until a thorough and objective inspection of the
evidence has taken place. The United States, Britain and France did not do that, preferring
instead to respond to hysterical press reports by "doing something." If the U.N. investigation
of the alleged attack turns up nothing, a distinct possibility, it is unlikely that they will
apologize for having committed a war crime.
The other major false flag that has recently surfaced is the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and
his daughter Yulia in Salisbury England on March 4th. Russia had no credible
motive to carry out the attack and had, in fact, good reasons not to do so. The allegations
made by British Prime Minister Theresa May about the claimed nerve agent being "very likely"
Russian in origin have been debunked, in part through examination by the U.K.'s own chemical
weapons lab. May, under attack even within her own party, needed a good story and a powerful
enemy to solidify her own hold on power so false flagging something to Russia probably appeared
to be just the ticket as Moscow would hardly be able to deny the "facts" being invented in
London. Unfortunately, May proved wrong and the debate ignited over her actions, which included
the expulsion of twenty-three Russian diplomats, has done her severe damage. Few now believe
that Russia actually carried out the poisoning and there is a growing body of opinion
suggesting that it was actually a false flag executed by the British government or even by the
CIA.
The lesson that should be learned from Syria and Skripal is that if "an incident" looks like
it has no obvious motive behind it, there is a high probability that it is a false flag. A bit
of caution in assigning blame is appropriate given that the alternative would be a precipitate
and likely disproportionate response that could easily escalate into a shooting war.
"... We are still unable to get answers to some questions regarding the activities of Ukrainian air forces in that region, at that place and at that time. ..."
Armin Wolf: One of the most complicated issues with regard to Russia is Ukraine. In
2014, Flight MH17 was shot down in Ukraine, 290 people died. The international investigative
commission announced a few days ago that the jet was shot down by a Russian army missile
system, that it was a convoy from Russia that had come to the Ukrainian insurgents in eastern
Ukraine. There is a video; there are telephone conversations and dozens of eyewitnesses. You
have been saying that this is not true for about a year but practically nobody believes your
words.
Are you not thereby putting the veracity of Russian statements at stake? Maybe it is time
to acknowledge that the insurgents in eastern Ukraine used Russian military equipment to
commit that horrendous crime?
Vladimir Putin: I want to note that both sides to the conflict – the
Ukrainian army and even Ukrainian volunteer battalions who are accountable to nobody save
their commanders, and the Donbass militia, the armed units in Donbass – they all use
Soviet and Russian-made weapons. All of them. The two sides have all sorts of systems –
both firearms, aviation, and anti-aircraft systems. All of them were made in Russia.
Armin Wolf: But now they know what missile it was: a Buk system missile. It was a
Russian army brigade in Kursk. This is known for a fact, yet you still deny it. Would it not
be better to admit that the missile had indeed come from Russia? Would it not be better to
officially acknowledge that Russia supported the insurgents in the east of Ukraine with
weapons?
Vladimir Putin: If you collect all your patience and let me finish, you will find
out my view on this issue.
As I said, both sides use Russian-made weapons, and the Russian army has exactly the same
systems the experts are talking about, which were certainly manufactured in the former Soviet
Union or in Russia. This is number one.
Number two. Russian experts have been denied access to the investigation, our arguments
are not taken into consideration, and nobody in the commission is interested in hearing us
out. Conversely, the Ukrainian side, which is a party interested in the results of the
investigation, has access to it. Meanwhile, it is responsible at least for failing to
prohibit civilian aircraft to fly in the conflict zone in violation of ICAO's international
norms.
We are still unable to get answers to some questions regarding the activities of
Ukrainian air forces in that region, at that place and at that time. The tragedy we are
talking about is terrible, and I feel immensely sorry for the victims and their families, but
this investigation must be objective and comprehensive.
Just a second, please, do not rush. Let me speak, otherwise we are going to have a
monologue on your part instead of an interview.
Armin Wolf: Nevertheless, let me say briefly – yes, we know where the missile
came from. But what do Holland, Australia or Malaysia have to gain by blaming Russia if it
was not a Russian missile that belonged to the Russian army?
Vladimir Putin: We do not see it that way; we have a different point of view. You
now listed countries that allegedly believe that it was a Russian missile and that Russia is
implicated in that terrible tragedy. I regret to disappoint you. Quite recently, Malaysian
officials declared that they do not see Russia's complicity in that tragic event; they have
no proof that Russia is implicated. Are you really not aware of that? Did you not see the
statements by Malaysian officials?
What do we think about this issue? If we really want to get to the bottom of things in
that horrendous event and reveal all the factors that would allow us to render a final
conclusion, all arguments should be taken into account, including the ones offered by Russia.
And it would be entirely fair for Russian experts to have access to the investigation.
Armin Wolf: The international investigative commission now claims that they have in
fact taken into account all arguments. Many people do not believe Russian arguments because a
few years ago in Crimea you said that the famous "green men," the fighters in green uniforms
without identifying insignia, were all local self-defense forces. But a little later it was
revealed that they were indeed Russian soldiers. After that, you admitted many times that
those were Russian army personnel even though you denied that earlier. Why should we believe
you now?
Vladimir Putin: Now that you mentioned Crimea. Do you know that in the mid 2000s,
right in the vicinity of Crimea, a Russian civilian jet was downed over the Black Sea? It was
done by the Ukrainian army during a drill. And the first reaction of the Ukrainian officials
was that Ukraine had nothing to do with it. A civilian plane was shot down en route from
Israel to Russia. Everyone onboard died, of course. Ukraine flatly denied its involvement in
that terrible incident but had to admit it later. And why should we believe Ukrainian
officials? So in response to your question about Crimea, I put the ball back in your
court.
Armin Wolf : I am not talking about Ukrainian officials, I am talking about you.
You said many times in 2014 that you used the Armed Forces in Crimea to block Ukraine's
interference. Later you admitted though that the Russian army was in Crimea, something you
had denied before.
Vladimir Putin : Russian forces have always been stationed there. Look, I would
like you to try to understand what was actually happening there, not just repeat these things
mechanically. Russian forces have always been present in Crimea. Our military contingent was
there.
One second, please, let me finish. Do you want to fire questions non-stop or hear my
answers?
The first thing we did when the events in Ukraine began What kind of events? Let me tell
you now, and you will say yes or no. It was an unconstitutional armed coup and seizure of
power. Yes or no? Will you tell me?
Armin Wolf : I am not an expert on the Ukrainian Constitution.
Vladimir Putin : You do not have to be an expert on Ukraine; you just need to be an
expert on law, on the constitutional law of any country.
Armin Wolf : I would not like to talk about Ukrainian politics, but about Russian
politics. Allow me to phrase it differently. What should happen in order for Russia to return
Crimea to Ukraine?
Vladimir Putin : There are no such conditions and there can never be.
I will tell you why. You interrupted me again, but if you actually let me finish, you
would understand what I mean. I will still do it.
When the unconstitutional armed coup took place in Ukraine, and power changed hands by
force, our army was legally deployed in Crimea – under the agreement on our military
base there. The first thing we did was increase our contingent to guard our Armed Forces, our
military facilities, because we immediately saw that they were being threatened. That is
where it all began. I told you with confidence that there was no one else there, but our
Armed Forces were there legally under an agreement.
Let me finish, for God's sake. ( Speaks German .) Seien Sie so nett, lassen Sie
mich etwas sagen. [Please be so kind as to let me say something.]
Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international
investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for.
Russian experts "have been denied access to the investigation," said Putin, while Russia's
arguments are "not taken into consideration" because nobody "is interested in hearing us
out."
Ukraine, meanwhile, has been given access to the probe.
Sure looks now like a false flag operation. One of the sign of false flag operation is media hysteria immediately after
the event. This holds true for MH17 tragedy.
Notable quotes:
"... MH 17 is simply another false flag operation, this one aimed at Russia as have so many recently. Russia's foreign ministry has begun addressing false flag terrorism and the US policy of staging terror attacks to blame on others after years of standing by silently. ..."
...The airliner was being directed on the same path used by SU 25 and SU 27 jets hitting the
cities in the Donbass and Lugansk pockets.
The date now is May 25, 2018. BBC and Reuters have just announced that Russia is "liable"
for the events of July 17, 2014, based on an investigation no one understands.
Malaysia had asked for an independent investigation but was warned off by the United States,
told to keep quiet. I was part of the team Malaysia had sought to investigate the downing of MH
17, along with VT editor, Washington attorney Thomas Mattingly and a group of former FBI agents
under ISI Corp.
Instead, the investigation was done by a Dutch group. It is clear, more than clear, that the
United States was aware Kiev had down the plane and was leading a coverup, protecting Kiev and
planning to use the incident to blame Russia.
Recent events makes this abundantly clear.
Blaming Russia is a way of life in Washington. Let's look at Ukraine and try to understand
what was going on at the time.
... ... ...
The Dutch now claim that Russia had "infiltrated" air defense groups into Ukraine and chose
to shoot down a Malaysian airliner for no imaginable reason. That motive, "no imaginable
reason," should be a problem for both governments and the media, not that I use the term
"should."
However, there is evidence, considerable evidence, that MH17 was downed by aircraft. We are
going to examine this hypothesis and the reaction to it when it was brought up back in
2014.
.... ... ...
Conclusion
MH 17 is simply another false flag operation, this one aimed at Russia as have so many
recently. Russia's foreign ministry has begun addressing false flag terrorism and the US policy
of staging terror attacks to blame on others after years of standing by silently.
Moscow has rejected any involvement in the crash of flight MH17 in Ukraine after the
Netherlands and Australia declared Russia "responsible" for the deployment of a BUK missile
system that downed the jet in 2014. Moscow neither accepts nor trusts the results of an
international investigation into the MH17 crash as it was not allowed to take part in it,
according to the Russian president's spokesman Dmitry Peskov.
"Of course, without being able to be a full participant, Russia does not know to what
extent the results of this work can be trusted," he said.
Peskov echoed the position of the Russian president Vladimir Putin who earlier said that,
although Ukraine was included in the probe, Russia was barred from participating in
establishing the truth.
Asked if he can confirm that Russia vehemently denies any involvement in the MH17 downing,
Peskov replied "absolutely."
Earlier on Friday, Amsterdam and Canberra said Russia is "responsible for its part in
the downing of flight MH17" following a Thursday press conference of the Dutch-led
International Investigation Team (JIT). The latter concluded that a BUK missile system from a
Russian 53rd brigade was transported to eastern Ukraine and used to down the passenger plane
with more than 300 people onboard. The system was then said to have returned to Russia.
"The [Dutch] government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia
accountable," Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Stef Blok said in a statement. However,
the Russian military earlier said that not a single weapons system crossed the border.
The allegation that the missile belonged to the Russian military had earlier been debunked
by the Buk manufacturer, Almaz-Antey. Its real-time experiment showed that the projectile which
hit MH17 (Boeing 777) was from an earlier generation and is no longer in service with the
Russian military. It was found that the plane was likely shot down using an old 9M38 missile,
not the newer type 9M38M1 with distinct butterfly-shaped metal fragments, which were allegedly
recovered by the Dutch Safety Board.
Moreover, Almaz-Antey's findings , which analyzed the
angle from which the projectiles entered the cockpit of the ill-fated flight, showed that the
most probable location of the launch site could be only on Kiev-controlled territory.
Untampered Russian radar data provided by Moscow led to similar conclusions.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 Ukrainian forces kept around 20 Buk systems,
according to the Russian Defense Ministry. The military also stressed that Moscow has not
supplied any new missiles to Ukraine since then
This is all so delicious coming on or nearly on the same day as a 'conclusive' report was
issued stating a BUK missile launcher belonging to Russia was escorted by Russian military
from Russia into Ukraine and used to shoot down Malaysia flight MH 17. So there take that
Russia even though you were not allowed to defend your version of events at the
'fair-and-balanced' international investigation. 'So what are you going to do about it?'
Ukraine gets a free pass again.
Coincidentally the World Football Cup begins in Russia in about three weeks. Who can
honestly claim the West doesn't have all its ducks/dicks in a perfect row?
Julia Skripal's photo shoot was just embarrassing, so contrived and forced, a PR agency's
hack piece.
'The mother and grandmother of Sergei and Julia Skripal aren't allowed to get in touch
with them?', you say. 'Now you're really must think I'm stupid. In the West we are FREE.'
I don't want to respond to such a fine philosophical essay like a police reporter hack--which
I have been-- but I have just discovered that an airlines pilot named Peter Haisenko argues
that the Malaysian flight was brought down by cannon fire. In a follow-up to his original
blog post he reports that he has taken a look at the whole question of this ground attack
plane's capabilities. By 1984 Jane's had evaluated the SU-25 as having a maximum flight
altitude of 10,670 meters. All a pilot would need would be oxygen; which brings to mind that
at 29,000 feet a climber on Everest can survive with an oxygen bottle. Global Research
--which I read cheerfully but with caution-- has picked up on Peter Haisenko and on the
Canadian investigator's remarks.
The photograph of the wing is particularly interesting to me. The impression I get is that
the scoring along the wing towards the pilot's cabin seems to be cut by a projectile that is
stable in flight and is smooth on its surface. I would guess that shrapnel would have left an
entirely different marking line. It would cut more erratically and deeply. I have a piece of
wood made into a small table that is a vivid reminder of what a projectile--a rifle bullet in
this case--will do when the bullet hits one plane on almost exactly the same plane. Leaving
an accident which is a little startling to see. My piece of wood is quite beautifully carved
by design on most of it and with an ancient patina; it came from an Buddhist stupa in a
temple in Burma that was destroyed in WWII, evidentally burned. It took me a while to figure
out why that wing photo bothered me.
I think this thing is going to be as big as the JFK assassination.
At the link below Pater Tenebrarum writes that an OSCE monitor notes the evidence of holes
on the cockpit which seems like machine gun fire. This fits closely with TTGs note of an
Ukrainian fighter trailing MH17. Apparently, there is a theory that the fighter aircraft and
a missile launcher on the ground were coordinating to bring down an aircraft that had Putin
returning from South America.
With respect to the lead up to the Great War, I am glad you bring up Colingwood. I agree
with two of his points - one, events spin out of control; two, "..the hard sciences had
caused in man's ability to control nature, and the complete absence of any corresponding
increase in man's ability to understand and control human affairs." I have noted for some
time that while the human being has developed his intellect substantially, he himself has not
"evolved" much in the past 5,000 years. There is an immense role that ambition, ego, greed,
fear, jealousy, hate and other human traits
My Dad worked for Boeing. I was shocked when I read that they were not sending
representatives to the crash investigation. They're the real experts on the 777. As a major
stakeholder they know everything the US government knows; maybe more. Either the corporate
need to distance itself from the crash overrides their responsibility to help to find the
truth and tell the families why their loved ones died and prevent it from occurring again or
the US government told them to stay away. This and the muddled information released so far
adds to my feeling of unease that the shoot down was a purposeful act in the rush to war with
Russia instead of a terrible accident caused by Ukraine allowing commercial flights to fly
over a combat zone.
This new article at CounterPunch suggests a new line of explanation for the MH17 tragedy.
"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pock-marked. It almost
looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique
marks that we haven't seen anywhere else."
One of the questions that this article posts is why Boeing does not want to investigate the
downing of its own plane. Yet the most puzzling part of the story is the US complete lack of
cooperation re satellite images of the plane and its demise.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/04/was-malaysia-flight-17-shot-down/
Nothing changed for all those years. There is no real progress in the investigation. Dutch
proved to bee complete stooges, following the party line. The Idea that Russian somehow got BUK
battery (several units of it as it includes a separate radar truck) into very densely populated
area of Donbass with a lot of intelligence assets managed to get it back to Russia undetected is
still circulating. No visible smoke trail from the rocket is another interesting fact. The fact
that Western media instantly started shouting "Russia, Russia" is also undisputable. And that
fact the USA hide the evidence is undisputable too. To say nothing about behaviour Ukrainian
authorities, who had hidden everything related to the incident with total impunity. Looks more
and more like another JFK story.
Notable quotes:
"... Its very, very notable that the incessant drone of accusations coming from these western corporate media outlets are based on 0, none, Nil, No "evidence" at all -only more baseless accusations from the state department and nameless, faceless, "official" cited in corporate media reports, with the same TOTAL lack of substantiation. ..."
"... The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that if indeed elements among the Kiev authorities are responsible, it will be very difficult to suppress the fact. ..."
"... One thing I can be sure of, if there was any evidence supporting a shooot down by a fighter, it will vanish once the CIA and MI6 are through with it. ..."
"The Su25 and the shadowy companion plane which Russian claim exist"....
are recorded on Russian military signals evidence (radar tracking). This is not some "he
said she said" CNN equivalency. Also, I believe the (increasingly credible) air - air
shoot-down hypothesis involving these two (tracked ,recorded, identified) Su25 aircraft,
makes the claim that the crime was committed by at least 1 (Su25) firing its 30mm automatic
cannons ("machine guns") and NOT a rocket or missile. Somehow you failed to mention that
either in your report or in a reply to a comment that brought up the OSCE reps' "machine gun"
statement - specifically. Also your constant insistence on characterizing all Russian media
as "possibly state controlled" is, I think, a misleading strategy.
Is Russian media "state controlled" ? Is the Russian media that you refer to "state
controlled" ? Moreover, after witnessing the staggering, sickening, completely unprofessional
US/EU media propaganda storm being unleashed,I have no doubt at all that British and American
corporate media are "state controlled". They have done nothing but widely disseminate
prepared US state department accusations and PR releases .
Its very, very notable that the incessant drone of accusations coming from these
western corporate media outlets are based on 0, none, Nil, No "evidence" at all -only more
baseless accusations from the state department and nameless, faceless, "official" cited in
corporate media reports, with the same TOTAL lack of substantiation.
Clearly, the US govt is leading this propaganda attack. If the US has evidence LET THEM
PRESENT IT. The Russian have presented their evidence for inspection.
As a sometimes television current affairs 'hack' who benefited enormous from having spent
time as a graduate trainee on the Liverpool Echo, and later spent happy hours delving into
the underworlds of local politics in London and Birmingham, the last thing I would be stupid
enough to do would be to contemptuous of a 'police reporter hack.' A major problem with much
of the MSM today is that those producing it are no longer down-to-earth, in the way that
old-style newspaper reporters commonly were.
The piece to which 'Ingolf' links below, and also if I recall right an earlier comment he
posted, argues that the impression that the patterns of damage match those one would expect
from cannon is unfounded. It is also not clear to me whether an Su-25 operating at the limits
of its altitude range, could use a cannon effectively (as distinct from a rocket.) That said,
at the moment it seems to me sensible not to rule anything out until we have unambiguous
evidence.
As to the scale of the furore which may be about to break, I think you could well be
right. It may still be that I, and TTG, and others on this blog sceptical about the
conventional wisdom about the MH17 affair are barking up the wrong tree. But if we are not,
Western governments may have backed themselves into a corner. The more I think about it, the
more it seems to me that if indeed elements among the Kiev authorities are responsible, it
will be very difficult to suppress the fact.
I second what VietVet said, I am totally surprised that Boeing would not send a representative to
the crash site and be part of the investigative team. This omission smells to high heaven.
Boeing advice would be needed for, among other things, the determination of the point or points of
impact of the warhead, the failure modes of the various parts of the structure and the sequence in
which they failed.
This information is needed to correlate the debris field with the point of impact of the
missile and to determine the ultimate critical issue of the direction from which the missile was
travelling when it detonated.
I am already suspicious that this was a Ukranian false flag operation because I believe that
initial indications are that the missile may have come from behind the aircraft from Ukrainian
territory. Shrapnel evidence suggests that the cockpit and nose took the brunt of the blast. Since
the operating principle of the proximity fuze is to detonate at the point of closest approach to
the target - identified when the range, as measured by the fuze radar, just starts to open, then
the explosion near the front of the plane is consistent with an approach from the rear. If the
missile approached from the front - rebel held territory, I would have expected the blast to be
towards the rear of the aircraft.
I would hope that someone with more technical knowledge can disprove my speculation.
One thing I can be sure of, if there was any evidence supporting a shooot down by a fighter, it
will vanish once the CIA and MI6 are through with it.
I think the question of what is best for the world is best left to the 8 million that live
in it; humanity should decide on its government every ten years.
The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. The nation state system is a middle
man between the global wealth of a very few and the slave poverty of the mass of 8 billion..
The problem with capitalism is that it is such a powerful system of economics nothing can
block its path.
Uncontrolled, capitalism is like the game of monopoly: in that game, payment is due to the
capitalist owner at most landing spots on the playing board; unless the party landing on such
spot already owns the spot landed on with each turn at play. In the end, the game of monopoly
wipes out everyone; it transfers everyone's wealth to but one player, the winner. Everyone
else is a broke worthless loser.
Without internationally enforced rules that prevent powerful, large mega monopolies
corporations (the public is unable to vote to change the corporate nature or to restructure
by voting those Board of Directors who mange the mega-corporation) to reach the size of
nation states and to amass the much more capital to burn than most nation states, nothing is
going to change. Bottom up insistence that nations write laws to control the mega-capitalist
powered, monopoly secured corporations go unheeded because no politicians or group of
politicians is strong enough to write laws that the nations can enforce, hence mega
corporations are virtually operating in a completely lawless environment { meaning mega
corporations can do whatever they want }. There is no nation powerful enough to reel in many
very large corporations; those certain few corporations own and enjoy the security from
competition that monopolies guarantee in most of the extremely profitable markets in the
world.
No one, including Russia and China can expect to survive trying to compete against the masses
of capital, the earning capacities and the wealth building power of monopolies. Monopolies
rule the nation state law makers , not the other way around. If I were you, I would add to
your list of possible MH-17 bashers several global corporations; the one's I have in mind,
cannot be completely identified to a single nation in the world because they are so large
they own the lawmakers, most of the assets and all of the earning power in many of the
nations.
One the 9/11 clouds is the possible corporate involvement.
There are three possibilities: Rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber,
and hit a passenger plane A Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the
expectation that the rebels would not fire A western plane deliberately shot down the plane,
possibly a stealth plane.
That the plane was ordered to fly lower by Kiev air control might support the last two
possibilities.
In any case, neither the rebels, nor the Russians had any interest in shooting down the
plane. The western interest at the time was clear, the Netherlands objected most to
sanctions, our export to Russia. The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.
What never has been explained was the telephone call from prime minister Rutte to vice
prime minister Asscher, at the time on holiday on vacation in the south of France.
Rutte phoned Asscher on his mobile, but asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the
Russians could not listen in'.
What at the afternoon of the crash was so secret that the Russians were not allowed to
hear, I have just the suspicion that Rutte told Asscher that the Russian had to be
blamed.
The Dutch investigation, with suspect Ukraine, drags on until now.
You are even more cynical than I am. I have no doubt that the politicians, Dutch, US,
Australian, Ukrainian, and all others, are totally amoral and unscrupulous. Naturally, they
are all venal. As the US saying goes, "honest politician is the one who, once bought, stays
bought".
But I thought that a person who lost someone in that crash would like to know the truth,
rather than "official" US BS. It would be sad to think that none of almost 300 people on
board had anyone who cared about them more than about money. If I were related to any of the
victims, I'd feel vindictive. I'd want to kill whoever is responsible, not whoever the liars
found it expedient to blame. And I'd make damn sure I know who planned this provocation and
who executed it in cold blood.
In my blog 'contraviews' http://www.contraviewing.blogspot.com post 148
you will find a recording of the conversation (mentioned in this article) between the
Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton. Go
to the year 2014 in the margin and scroll down to post 148. One may find more interesting
articles on MH17.
Russian foreign ministry presentation provided sensational new details during ambassador briefing claiming that the USA know about
the fact that Boing was short down before Boeing fall on he ground. And deliberately hide satellite information that they have about
the incident that establishedd the sequnce of events in this shooting
Live Russian MFA summons foreign ambassadors to a meeting on Skripal
case -- statement - YouTube
Notable quotes:
"... The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data. ..."
The lengths Dutch Prime Minister publicly went (serving quote 'geopolitical interests') to get the EU-Ukraine association agreement
ratified the clear rejection by advisory referendum notwithstanding, ought to make any well informed reader suspicious of how
far Rutte went out of public sight to serve those same 'geopolitical interests' by manipulating both the investigation and public
opinion in relation to MH17.
Rutte recently demonstrated his fealty to those 'geopolitical interests' again. When asked if new evidence was presented in
the Skripal case to justify the Netherlands support for the UK, Rutte answered that 'such evidence wasn't necessary because May
had stated that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible'.
The Dutch Government got a UN mandate to perform the investigation and as such that part of the investigation had to be transparent.
Clearly to serve those 'geopolitical interests' the Dutch separated the technical investigation from the legal liability investigation.
The technical investigation was performed under the UN mandate and the second legal liability investigation was organized separate
from any UN mandate.
The Dutch, Australian, Belgium government colluded with the Ukrainians to organize a 'Joint Investigation Team' which under
the cover of performing a legal investigation refuses any transparency and at regular intervals hints that indictments are close
but not there yet.
Also the Dutch Transport Safety Board technical investigation has concluded that the UkSATSE should have closed the Air Control
area above Eastern Ukraine, but the Dutch government has thus far never taken any action to hold the Ukrainians responsible for
that failure even when 3 days before MNH17 a AN-24 was downed from 6500m and UkSATSE (joint civil-military ATC) continued to control
some 100 civil air liners a day over that area.
The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data.
Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.
The question is "Who is liable?".
Shooting down aircraft above a war zone is SOP. If a civilian air liner is guided and controlled over such war area where 3
days earlier an AN-24 has been downed from 6500m one really ought to question the competence and liability of the ATC involved.
That ATC authority UkSATSE as a joint civil-military ATC was fully informed about the situation and still continued to guide some
100 civil air liners ad day for three days over that war zone.
Shooting down a civil air liner over a war zone is tragic but not necessarily always a crime. There was no motive for the East
Ukrainians, but as shown by the relentless exploitation by the Kiev puppet regime this Kiev regime most definitely had a motive.
Any liability investigation with the Ukrainian secret service as an investigator like in the Dutch/Australian/Ukraine Joint
investigation Team simply can't be trusted to even look for the truth. The JIT was set up with the intention of evading the transparency
requirements associated with the UN mandated investigation.
Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine
even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators
were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid
that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense
unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.
5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience
shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose
is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control
records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions:
they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.
Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine
even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators
were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that
it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense
unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.
5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience
shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose
is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control
records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions:
they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.
See my comment nr 230: There is not one investigation. The Dutch manipulated this into two separate investigations. There was
a technical UN mandated transparent Dutch Safety Board investigation. The Dutch organized a second criminal investigation together
with Australia, Belgium and the Ukraine and instigated A Joint Investigation Team (JIT).
Yes. I can understand the Dutch government: they serve the US overlords first and foremost. They don't give a hoot about the lives
of ordinary Dutch people. What I do not understand is the behavior of the people who lost loved ones in MH17 crash. Don't they
want to know who killed them? Don't they object to being grist for the mill of amoral and cynical politicians?
Well, actually I believe that those points do not contradict my theory.
You:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled
down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation
Me:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled
down. They saw, on their monitors, what happened.
You:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. If they could prove that Donbass freedom fighters were
the perpetrators, these pictures would have been publicized by the US more than any Hollywood movie. My conclusion is that the
perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want
to happen.
Me:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. They could've pointed to actual surveillance capabilities
of the US, either way.
You:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that
it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it
Me:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. The investigation was supposed to
be as impartial as possible. Interested parties were kept out as much as possible.
Etc .
No need to keep see-sawing this. Being done plenty of times before and it is being done, as we speak, all over Internet.
1. If anyone on the US/Ukraine side saw on their screens anything that could place the blame on Donbass freedom fighters and/or
Russia, they would have presented their evidence straight away. The US and its vassals (e.g., UK) go into lengthy hysterics even
when they have no evidence whatsoever (US elections in 2016, Skripal affair, etc).
2. The US was so eager to hide its surveillance capabilities that Kerry blabbered about it from the get go. Then presented
zilch. Very believable.
3. If Malaysia was excluded to make the investigation impartial, than Ukraine, Netherlands, Australia, and UK should have been
excluded, as well. The investigation should have been conducted by a party who has no stake in the matter. Instead, it is conducted
by one of the prime suspects and countries who lost citizens in that crash. For four years! With non-disclosure agreement, to
boot. Inspires lots of confidence.
I am sure your responses to the rest would be just as "convincing".
Why on earth would Russia gain anything from shooting down the plane? Western sanctions assault on the Russian Federation had
been ongoing for some time before this incident. The US is willing to kill its own people, ala 9/11. The deep state is malicious
and dangerous and it is the alt internet that makes our use of same to glean information that we would never to see in the MSM.
The US has been trying to provoke Russia into a war and Putin hasn't taken the bait. The senseless idiots in the west don't seem
to realise that Russian nuclear weaponry is supperia to our own and life on earth would surely end; except for the wealthy elites
who run our country who would be safe in our D.U.M.B's
No clue how fast a BUK flies.....As for snakes, I can´t recall any that have developed the ability to fly, and I´m certain
Pythons haven´t. I`m not saying they don´t, but I just never come across one that does....I´ll look into it.
Hmm an invisible BUK missile.
Well it could be....There is yet anyone to come forward that has seen it taking off.
Not a single person......No sound......No contrail......Nothing.....No surprises it wasn´t seen by radar.
It wasn´t there.
Going off-topic, your hobby, isn't it, Anne-Marie? Anyway, as your quoted sputnik article writes:
"However, Russian arms manufacturer Almaz-Antey, which developed the Buk missile system, has rejected these findings, saying
that three simulations showed that the missile was launched from the Zaroshchenske area, which was controlled by Ukraine's
army at the time of the downing"
Clearly the (their, A-A's) discussion is not what type of missile system. They (or rather their bosses) only want the missile
to have been launched from "Ukraine's army controlled" area. Why do you want to keep the fantasies and lies alive? Btw, here is
the official news release:
https://www.om.nl/actueel/n... Link to a more detailed report near the bottom.
LMAO...How did I know I´d find you here trolling AM?
Anyway AA has always said IF it was a BUK missile, and as no Russian officials in any capacity has been allowed near the wreckage
in the hands of the lying war criminal dutch government, It would be impossible for them to make a conclusive analysis.
Btw, We are familiar with your "reports"....Not worth the paper they are written on.
And finally banderite, as this case has yet to see the inside of a court of Law, it is all bullshit till it does.
Any dates for that court hearing yet?...And I do mean an open and transparent court hearing and not some kangaroo court favoured
by the Brits when they "tried" the Litvenko case.
So A-A - that has co-operated with the DSB in their investigation into what downed the MH17- did an expensive research
on their own, doing experiments, writing a report, giving presentations, came to their conclusions about the type of BUK and the
launch location, and then would say "IF it was a BUK". Ha ha ha, now that is a ridiculous conditional statement! Only fools
believe that. "If it was a BUK"... LMAO... It was a BUK, cockroach, and it came from Russia in the night before, with a Russian
crew. They fired at what they thought to be a Ukrainian military aircraft and killed almost 300 innocent people, almost 200 from
my country. IF the "case will not see the inside of a court of Law", it is due to the obstructions and the protection that
these cowards get from your paradise that has already vetoed a UN tribunal and announced that it will not hand over any suspects,
cockroach.
That´s more like it banderite...I do like a bit of a spirited debate.
However...:-( it does seem to be the case you have spent more time concentrating on calling me a "cockroach" than concentrating
on what this debate is about....I did tell you many times you aren´t terribly bright, and as such I would suggest you concentrate
on giving more thought to the question in hand rather than thinking of childish insults in order to get some sort of angry response
from me...ain´t gonna happen banderite...you are nowhere near clever enough.
Any how banderite poofter...the main thrust of my argument, was the fact, no Russian official in any capacity was allowed anywhere
near the wreckage in the possession of the lying war criminal dutch government to make an accurate analysis of what may have brought
the aeroplane down.
Can you confirm this is the case?
And try not to obfuscate...You will not be able to throw me off the scent.
Oh, btw....How is russie russie?...Poor sod got banned the other day. :-(
LMAO!!!!
Didn´t slavko get banned as well?
Holy crap...we´re running out of trolls.
I would suggest you concentrate on giving more thought to the question in hand rather than thinking of childish insults
You took the words right out of my mouth.... thanks, cockroach.
Russian officials? LMAO. Wasn't the area where the plane crashed controlled by "separatists" and vacationers? To whom did these
bell boys want to hand over the "black boxes" initially? What were these bell boys doing with - and near the pieces of wreckage
in those first days?
Again, no idea what or who a "banderite" is, nor what or who a "russie russie" is, but looking at the definition of what is
seen as a "cockroach" here, you are exactly that, a cowardly cockroach even. However... it does seem to be the case you have
spent more time concentrating on discussingbanned commentersthan concentrating on what this debate is about.
(What happened to "Otto310" by the way?) Thanks.
ahhh, that sort of Python. I do so apologise, I must admit to feeling a little wary last night.It had been a long day. I thought
you mean´t the wriggly hissing type of Python.
Well, it is now a new day, and feeling refreshed and ready for a this new day after a good nights sleep, I am now a little more
compis mentis than last night.
I have seen that report.To me there is a flaw. It does not mention bullet holes, and there are definitely some holes in the aircraft
that are perfectly round, depending from which angle the bullets were fired from, which could not have come from a BUK.
There are two reports that corroborate the other.
This one is probably the first to go against the official line, by Peter Haisenko.
https://www.anderweltonline...
and then there is this one.
https://cassad-eng.livejour...
Both are very good and seem to make a lot of sense.
Btw, normally I would be bidding you a good night.
But not now...So...Good morning AM!
The Ukraine military shot down another airliner some years before when a missile aimed at a
training drone missed and locked on to the airliner.
I think the Kiev side had been directing airliners across the war zone along the path of
planned bombing runs to allow Ukraine military jets to fly the same course *below* the
airliner and use the airliner's much bigger radar signature (huge compared to a military jet)
as protection i.e. if a missile was fired and missed it might lock on to the airliner
instead.
I don't think the US side wants to admit their allies were using airliners as human
shields and the Russians don't want to admit their surface to air missiles ignore civilian
IFF (as they must in a war zone) hence why both side's stories feel unconvincing.
Apart from the politics it's important because if missiles treat civilian IFF as foe then
it means airliners need to be kept a very long way from any mid-tech war zone.
The parallels are pretty clear. In the case of both 9/11 and this Malaysian airliner, the
western mainstream media had their story ready to go as soon as it happened. And then when
all the evidence starts accumulating that this story is untrue, cannot possibly be true, they
simply ignore all of it. In fact anybody who brings it up is immediately tarred as a
"conspiracy theorist".
Re: "The Ukraine would have no need to shoot AA missiles since so called Rebels had no air
force at the time "
The Kiev regime had no need to put anti-aircraft batteries in the area at all, but they
did!
Please everybody, get real.
Its been months since the shooting down of MH 17 and despite all the accusations made by
the US government and the Kiev regime at the time, not one single piece of credible evidence
has been produced. Obviously the information is being suppressed, and even more obviously it
is not being withheld to protect the rebels or the Russians.
Under Artimovsk there is a gigantic weapons cache. Is it possible that the plane was
downed so that Western investigators could look into an inventory of that site and assess
what the Separatists removed from said weapons dump? Chemical, Nuclear, Biological weapons
stocks?
The HQ for the crash site investigation was set up in Soledar which is a very close to the
Salt Mine cave entrance.
The passengers were just collateral damage in the contest over weapons stocks.
And here is an assessment of the non-surface-to-air-BUK (or 'red herring') theory, going with
the pics and reports of two fighter jets -Ukrainian – seen on each side of MH-17 :
Ray B. March 07, 2015
Here is my analysis, from an ex-Boeing aero engineer standpoint:
The Boeing 777 was initially at 33,000 feet. The aircraft, therefore, was above the Su-25's
ceiling, as listed at wikipedia. (Service ceiling: 7,000 m (22,965 ft) clean,
5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons) I am aware of the Comments both that this is an
artificial, CIA-changed figure and that Su-25 pilots have reached at least 30,000 feet with
supplemental oxygen. For the purpose here, it does not matter. I am presuming the Su-25 was
carrying only two R-60 air-to-air missiles, which are low drag. So, the service ceiling in
this case would have been around 21-22,000 feet. (The upgrades to the Su-25 did not include
engine or aerodynamic changes, so are unlikely to have increased the ceiling.) The 777 was
well within reach of the R-60s, though (66,000 ft, Mach 2.7). As a non-maneuvering, transport
aircraft, it would have been laughably easy to hit. I would have salvoed both missiles, both
for increased hit-chance and to avoid coming back with only one missile (very noticeable, as
opposed to just empty pylons). The above would tie-in with ret. Col Zhilin's testimony. Most
reports indicate the accompanying-fighter was closing from the rear, which is the most
advantageous for infrared guidance. With infrared guidance, the missile would home-in
directly on the hottest area – the engine exhaust. The warhead would probably detonate
in the exhaust cone or adjacent to it. In the Boeing 777, the engine is slung well out in
front of the wing. The expanding-rod warhead would rip up the engine but probably not take
out the wing or flight control cabling. The 'hit' (or hits) might indeed be survivable.
Today's jet engines are built with FAA-mandated 'containment shields'.
They are meant to contain high-velocity fan/compressor/turbine blades if something causes
them to shear off. They are basically armored 'cans' surrounding the rotating
parts. A missile detonating inside this 'can' might have the expanding-rods contained,
rather than punching through the nacelle and into the fuselage. If detonating on the far side
of the 'can' from the fuselage, much the same result Also, Zhilin says, " the Boeing turned
180 degrees to the left." This would be the direct result of losing thrust on the left
engine. The pilots were probably more concerned with staying in the air (under control) than
their heading http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/
commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf "Engine-out altitude capability (MTOW, ISA + 10°C)
Basic: 16,200 ft Maximum Weight: 15,600 ft" After the 777's engine was hit and disabled by
the R-60, the 777 would have descended to around 15-16,000 feet. That is the standard
one-engine-out 'cruise' altitude as above. It may have been lower with the damage.
If I were the pilot, I would have been on a circling descent through and below that
altitude, looking for a nearby airport or good field. Since the R-60 has
such a small warhead, the pilots may not even have known they were hit by a missile and
assumed a simple engine-out problem. That could account for the lack of initial
reporting.
This descent would have put the 777 well within the Su-25's (wikipedia) altitude
capability. So, it would have been possible at that point to conduct a 'strafing' run with
the 30mm cannon. With the 777 turning, that may have presented the opportunity for whatever
angle shot the fighter pilot wanted. As various Commenters have noted, there seems to have
been a concentration on the cockpit and avionics bay. (Grrr.)
Unfortunately, with the 'secrecy agreement' in place, I see no way that any important
evidence will be revealed, barring a Snowden-like mass-release by someone with a
Conscience
Reply
"... One of the most salient points I find, is the fact that no vapour trail had been observed or photographed from the ground. A vapour condensation trail remains visible for quite some time and is visible for I would think at least 15 minutes. ..."
Someone may already have commented on it, but it's impossible to read all the comments.
One of the most salient points I find, is the fact that no vapour trail had been
observed or photographed from the ground. A vapour condensation trail remains visible for
quite some time and is visible for I would think at least 15 minutes.
Surely in this day and age when virtually everyone carries a cell phone capable of
making pictures, such evidence should be available. But apparently there is not.
As a test it would be interesting if Russia would in front of the international press
test fire a BUK missile.
I would very much appreciate comments on this particular aspect of the catastrophe.
Thank you in anticipation.
The JIT in its 29/9 report showed a picture of a smoke trail. If that had been the smoke
trail of the BUK that alledgedly shot down MH 17 than that picture would without a shadow of
doubt been splashed over al the western media within hours. Hundreds may by thousands would
have seen it and scores of pictures and videos would have been taken. The very fact that JIT
now comes up with a smoke trail (which could have been taken any where) proves that it is a
fake. If that is a fake all the other pictures are most likely fakes. Mr Eliot Higgins should
have done better.
Despite the Dutch whitewash (report) which could only be called the 'likely' & 'probably'
'we love to point any finger at Putin report', material at odds with the western line
continues to come out:
The Dutch investigators "can't decipher" the radar data provided by the Russians. As well,
Dutch police have confiscated from journalists raw footage of new witness interviews that
will no doubt be shared with Ukraine as a party to the investigation, endangering those
persons who provided the information on condition of confidentiality:
The lengths Dutch Prime Minister publicly went (serving quote 'geopolitical interests') to
get the EU-Ukraine association agreement ratified the clear rejection by advisory referendum
notwithstanding, ought to make any well informed reader suspicious of how far Rutte went out
of public sight to serve those same 'geopolitical interests' by manipulating both the
investigation and public opinion in relation to MH17.
Rutte recently demonstrated his fealty to those 'geopolitical interests' again. When asked
if new evidence was presented in the Skripal case to justify the Netherlands support for the
UK, Rutte answered that 'such evidence wasn't necessary because May had stated that it was
highly likely that Russia was responsible'.
The Dutch Government got a UN mandate to perform the investigation and as such that part
of the investigation had to be transparent.
Clearly to serve those 'geopolitical interests' the Dutch separated the technical
investigation from the legal liability investigation. The technical investigation was
performed under the UN mandate and the second legal liability investigation was organized
separate from any UN mandate.
The Dutch, Australian, Belgium government colluded with the Ukrainians to organize a
'Joint Investigation Team' which under the cover of performing a legal investigation refuses
any transparency and at regular intervals hints that indictments are close but not there
yet.
Also the Dutch Transport Safety Board technical investigation has concluded that the
UkSATSE should have closed the Air Control area above Eastern Ukraine, but the Dutch
government has thus far never taken any action to hold the Ukrainians responsible for that
failure even when 3 days before MNH17 a AN-24 was downed from 6500m and UkSATSE (joint
civil-military ATC) continued to control some 100 civil air liners a day over that area. The
Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data.
News
4th June 2014
UkSATSE ensures safety in Ukrainian sky under any conditions
Ukrainian State Air Traffic Services Enterprise (UkSATSE) informs that the enterprise keeps
on providing the whole range of air navigation services. It ensures flight safety in the
airspace of Ukraine, airdromes of Ukraine and in the international airspace over the high
seas at the relevant level. Moreover, UkSATSE ensures trouble-free operation of branches of
Joint Civil-Military System of Air Traffic Management of Ukraine irrespective of foreign
interference in work of air traffic services bodies in Crimea and at the East of Ukraine.
Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.
The question is "Who is liable?".
Shooting down aircraft above a war zone is SOP. If a civilian air liner is guided and
controlled over such war area where 3 days earlier an AN-24 has been downed from 6500m one
really ought to question the competence and liability of the ATC involved. That ATC authority
UkSATSE as a joint civil-military ATC was fully informed about the situation and still
continued to guide some 100 civil air liners ad day for three days over that war zone.
Shooting down a civil air liner over a war zone is tragic but not necessarily always a
crime. There was no motive for the East Ukrainians, but as shown by the relentless
exploitation by the Kiev puppet regime this Kiev regime most definitely had a motive.
Any liability investigation with the Ukrainian secret service as an investigator like in
the Dutch/Australian/Ukraine Joint investigation Team simply can't be trusted to even look
for the truth. The JIT was set up with the intention of evading the transparency requirements
associated with the UN mandated investigation.
Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail
to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals,
and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators
could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical
conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would
have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation.
Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the
"investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a
non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is
guilty.
5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the
history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the
truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers,
or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international
airlines drew their conclusions: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like
they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.
In my blog 'contraviews' http://www.contraviewing.blogspot.com post 148
you will find a recording of the conversation (mentioned in this article) between the
Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton. Go
to the year 2014 in the margin and scroll down to post 148. One may find more interesting
articles on MH17.
See my comment nr 230: There is not one investigation. The Dutch manipulated this into two
separate investigations. There was a technical UN mandated transparent Dutch Safety Board
investigation. The Dutch organized a second criminal investigation together with Australia,
Belgium and the Ukraine and instigated A Joint Investigation Team (JIT).
Yes. I can understand the Dutch government: they serve the US overlords first and
foremost. They don't give a hoot about the lives of ordinary Dutch people. What I do not
understand is the behavior of the people who lost loved ones in MH17 crash. Don't they want
to know who killed them? Don't they object to being grist for the mill of amoral and cynical
politicians?
Last year I published Our American Pravda , making the case for
the utter corruption and unreliability of the mainstream American media, both in the past and
especially in recent years. The enormous lacunae I daily noticed in the pages of The New
York Times , The Wall Street Journal , and other leading media outlets were a
major motivation behind my creation of The Review , whose readership has grown
enormously in recent weeks.
A perfect example of this dangerous MSM "conspiracy of silence" may be found in the growing
confrontation with Russia over Ukraine, greatly accelerated by the death of almost 300
passengers aboard Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, shot down last month over Eastern Ukraine. The
American media and its Western counterparts have almost unanimously placed the blame on
anti-government rebels backed by Russia, and darkly insinuate that Russian President Vladimir
Putin has the blood of those hundreds of innocent lives on his hands. London's once-respectedEconomist magazine has repeatedly run shrill covers promoting the great threat of
Putin and Russia to world peace, even featuring a photo of the former under the stark title
"A Web of
Lies." There is the serious likelihood of a renewed Cold War against Russia and with the
neoconized Republicans in Congress proposing legislation to incorporate Ukraine as an American
military ally and deploy American forces there, the actual possibility of a military clash near
the Russian border.
As readers know, I have been overwhelmingly consumed with my own software work in recent
months and aside from closely reading the NYT and WSJ every morning, have
devoted little time or effort to following the disastrous Ukraine situation. But just carefully
reading between the lines of our elite MSM outlets and glancing at a few contrary perspectives
presented on alternative websites have left me highly suspicious of our media narrative,
leading me to wonder where the finger of guilt actually points.
For example, according to the official American story, MH17 was downed by rebels armed with
a BUK anti-aircraft missile battery. As it happens, the pro-American Ukraine government
possesses a large inventory of exactly those weapons, while it is far from clear that the
rebels have a single unit, let alone the expertise to operate such sophisticated devices.
Furthermore, there apparently exists radar evidence demonstrating that Ukraine fighter planes
were in the immediate vicinity of MH17 just before it was shot down and there are firsthand
reports from investigators on the ground that portions of the crashed fuselage showed strong
evidence of having been hit the sort of heavy machine-gun fire employed in air combat. I find
it extremely suspicious that the American government has repeatedly refused to release the
evidence supporting its narrative, while the Russian government has released copious evidence
supporting its contrary perspective.
We must bear in mind that the downing of MH17 and the deaths of the hundreds of mostly
European passengers came as a fortuitous stroke of fortune for the embattled Kiev government
and its neoconservative American backers, given that Germany and most of the other major
European governments had just balked at approving the harsh anti-Russian economic sanctions
being proposed by the White House. Cui bono ?
Furthermore, this terrible suspicion that 300 innocent lives may have been sacrificed in a
ghastly false-flag operation by an American-supported government is somewhat buttressed by
earlier events. Consider that the overthrow of the democratically-elected and neutralist
Ukrainian government was sparked by the massive bloodshed that erupted between riot police and
pro-American demonstrators in the Kievan capital, as many hundreds on both sides were suddenly
killed or wounded by an outbreak of heavy gunfire over a couple of nights. I found it very
intriguing that soon afterward an
intercepted telephone call between the pro-Western foreign minister of Estonia and European
High Commissioner Catherine Ashton, later confirmed to be genuine, revealed that the bullets
found in the bodies of both government police and anti-government demonstrators had apparently
come from the same guns. The most plausible explanation of this strange detail is that the
snipers responsible were professionals brought in to cause the massive bloodshed necessary to
overthrow the government, which is exactly what soon followed. Again cui bono ?
Am I certain about these facts, let alone the analysis built upon them? Absolutely not! As
emphasized, I've been entirely preoccupied with other matters over the last few months. But if
such obvious suspicions are apparent to someone who occasionally glances at the news reports
out of the corner of his mind's eye, the total silence of the American media and its huge corps
of full-time professional journalists constitutes a very telling indictment. Personally, I
think there's a high likelihood that forces aligned with current pro-Western regime were
responsible for the massacre in Kiev's Maidan Square and a better than fifty-fifty chance they
more recently shot down MH17, but I really can't be sure about either of these things. However,
I am absolutely 100% certain that the American MSM has been revealed as a totally worthless
source of information on these crucial world events, although it can be relied upon to provide
every last detail of Robin Williams' troubled life or the endless foibles of the
Kardashians.
In the interests of providing our readers at least some access to alternate accounts of why
we may now be heading into a new Cold War against Russia -- or even a hot one -- I've recently
republished a couple of Mike Whitney's fine Counterpunch columns on the mysteries of
Flight
MH17 , which cautiously raised questions rather than claimed to answer them, as well as
those of the redoubtable Paul Craig Roberts.
Aside from attracting considerable debate from our website's often "excitable" commenters,
whose views range from the sensible to the deranged, our Whitney columns regarding MH17 had a
far more important consequence. One of our left-liberal readers was shocked to read facts
totally absent from the pages of The Nation , the Huffington Post , or any of
the other left-liberal sites she visits. Out of curiosity, she contacted a very prominent
left-liberal American academic, someone with special expertise in exactly that area of Europe.
To her considerable surprise, he largely confirmed the outlandish "conspiracy theory," saying
that the evidence increasingly indicated that the American-backed Kiev government had shot down
Flight MH17, either accidentally or otherwise.
Based on his remarks, it sounded like he and his friends had devoted 100x the time and
effort that I had to investigating the incident, thereby reassuring me that my casual
conclusions were at least not wholly ridiculous. Yet it also appeared that neither he or any of
the other American experts in his circle who apparently share his views had seen fit to publish
their opinions in any of the numerous media outlets to which they have easy access, presumably
for fear of being denounced and stigmatized as "conspiracy nuts." They may regard the
possibility of an American military confrontation with nuclear-armed Russia as a terrible
danger, but it pales compared to the horrifying risk that the 22-year-old bookers at MSNBC chat
shows might decide to put a black mark down next to their names.
The following day I lamented this cowardice of our intelligentsia to another
prominent liberal academic with whom I'm friendly, and he immediately sent me the draft by a
friend of his on that very topic that I am now greatly honored to publish. Most of the dead on
MH17 were Dutch citizens and Karel van Wolferen ranks as one of the
world's most prominent Dutch journalists, winner of major awards and someone whose numerous
books that have sold well over a million copies worldwide. His article describes the evidence
regarding MH17, but more importantly focuses on the totally corrupted worlds of journalism and
politics that have enabled this dangerous situation to develop.
I urge everyone to read van Wolferen's long and thoughtful piece and ask themselves why such
basic facts and simple analysis appear nowhere within the mainstream American media. Given his
standing and his credibility, the New York Times should have long since featured his
byline on a major opinion piece, and the absence constitutes powerful evidence. During our
disastrous Iraq War the American media applied exactly the same
boycott to the views of my old friend Bill Odom, the three-star general who had run the NSA
for President Ronald Reagan and ranked as one of Washington's leading experts on national
security issues. Our totally incompetent ruling elites refuse to let discordant voices puncture
their bubble of unreality.
For those readers who refuse to admit the possibility that our vaunted MSM might conceal
such vital facts, consider the important point I made at the beginning of my 2013 article . In
recent years, leading scholars have conclusively established that for a decade or two during
the 1930s and 1940s, a small network of Communist spies quietly gained substantial control of
our national government in Washington, DC, successfully diverting the actions of the United
States to their own nefarious ends. If our mainstream media had failed to notice or report that
situation at the time and then spent the next half century ridiculing anyone who suggested this
possibility, why should anyone believe that the media can be trusted on the question of who
actually shot down Flight MH17 in Ukraine? Our American Pravda indeed.
UPDATE: Our long, detailed article by distinguished Dutch journalist Karel van Wolferen has
had enormous traffic, and is now on the verge of becoming the most heavily read piece in the
history of our young webzine, while the nearly 600 Tweets it has so far received indicatie
distribution comparable to that of a major New York Times article. All this has happened in
just the last couple of days.
Furthermore, just as I had hoped, the very lengthy comment threads of the two articles have
provided a wealth of additional information, far beyond anything I had previously encountered,
given my slight familiarity with this issue.
First, I learned that a group of highly-experienced former intelligence officers from the
CIA, FBI, NSA, and other government agencies has issued a public statement sharply criticizing
the lack of evidence substantiating the claims made by American government officials.
Also, the blogsite of Col. Patrick Lang, a very highly regarded former Defense Intelligence
official, has published a lengthy and detailed analysis of the MH17 Incident, raising many of
the same issues:
Furthermore, one of the commenters on our website, who purportedly has a military
intelligence background, pointed us to the very detailed analysis he had published on his own
blogsite regarding MH17:
Although I claim no great expertise in military affairs, these analyses certainly seem to
strengthen my suspicions that the Official Story almost universally accepted by the Western MSM
is far from solid and may indeed be a ridiculous fabrication. I urge others to follow the links
I have provided, and draw their own conclusions, perhaps different from my own. But they should
ask themselves why so many highly-regarded former U.S. intelligence professionals would be
raising these serious doubts and why our mainstream media has totally failed to report
them.
As for me, I've noticed a curious fact. It appears that the people and organizations
promoting the current Official Line on Ukraine have a huge overlap with the people and
organizations that promoted the disastrous Iraq War, based on the notorious WMD Hoax.
Meanwhile, the people providing serious skepticism about government accusations regarding MH17
are exactly the same people who raised doubts and skepticism about Iraq's alleged WMD and the
wisdom of attacking Iraq, while being just as totally ignored by the MSM then as now.
Since none of the Iraq War or WMD Hoax culprits ever received proper punishment for their
crimes, they've mostly remained alive and free and able to promote equally disastrous foreign
policy adventures in the media they continue to control. But that doesn't mean we must be so
gullible as to believe what they say.
Going forward, the crucial unknown is whether our timorous media or even its ideological
fringes, will begin to seriously report these issues, or whether they'll all get into line just
as they did during the WMD Hoax.
UPDATE 2:
Scott Horton has a podcast interview of Karel van Wolferen
"... MH17 was an anglo/US hit job. I start to see now why no Australian rep went with the Malaysians to collect the victims and the planes black boxes. The Dutch at least had the decency to go with the Malaysian's and pick up their own people. ..."
"... With Novichok, it only took a couple of days to get the EU on board so I think plenty of planning by UK and fellow travelers in the US before the Skripal's were poisoned. ..."
MH17 was an anglo/US hit job. I start to see now why no Australian rep went with the
Malaysians to collect the victims and the planes black boxes. The Dutch at least had the
decency to go with the Malaysian's and pick up their own people.
With MH17 it took two weeks to push the EU into sanctioning Russia which and only then so
called international team and Australian reps went to the site.
With Novichok, it only took a couple of days to get the EU on board so I think plenty
of planning by UK and fellow travelers in the US before the Skripal's were poisoned.
"our mutual friend Elliott Higgins" works for the Atlantic council, that's when he not
ginning up (original) false Ghouta chemical attack and falsifying and photo shopping evidence
on the MH17 (which was carried out by Ukraine.)
"... The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide. I wonder if he was suicided. Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes. Blaming someone. ..."
"... Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ? Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ? And so on, and so forth. ..."
There is one 'track record', Litvinov, killed by polonium. What secret service would be so
dumb as to use this, pointing immediately to state murder ? Accidents, and suicides are quiet
methods for keeping people silent for all times.
The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just
committed suicide. I wonder if he was suicided. Sensational murders, or attempted murders,
have quite different purposes. Blaming someone.
Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident
was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ? Why was Palme murdered, who
indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that
Mölleman died accidentally ? And so on, and so forth.
"... VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar spoofed" shot down MH 17.
We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots and we presented evidence that
an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to vector in the shootdown. ..."
"... Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by
pro-Israeli traitors ..."
"... Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the
destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft mechanic
told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close air support
aircraft flown by Voloshin. ..."
"... The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied
that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down. ..."
"... Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan
Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may have
eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the downing
of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position." ..."
"... In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can
to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's
possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or
another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon. ..."
"... I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf
Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think that
the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter
disappears," the observer said. ..."
Notable quotes:
"... VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar spoofed" shot down MH 17. We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots and we presented evidence that an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to vector in the shootdown. ..."
"... Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by pro-Israeli traitors ..."
"... Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft mechanic told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close air support aircraft flown by Voloshin. ..."
"... The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down. ..."
"... Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may have eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the downing of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position." ..."
"... In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon. ..."
"... I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think that the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter disappears," the observer said. ..."
[ Editor's note : VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar
spoofed" shot down MH 17. We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots
and we presented evidence that an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to
vector in the shootdown.
Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by
pro-Israeli traitors Gordon Duff ]
*
The pilot's death, preliminarily ruled a suicide, has reopened claims about his possible
role in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in the summer of
2014.
Vladislav Voloshin, the Ukrainian combat pilot which some Russian investigative journalists
have accused of responsibility for the MH17 disaster, allegedly shot himself Sunday at his
home.
According to a
press release by police in the southern Ukrainian city of Mykolaiv, the 29-year-old pilot's
wife heard the gunshot and called the emergency services. Voloshin succumbed to his wounds on
route to hospital.
According to the police, the pilot was shot by a Makarov pistol, a standard issue military
and police side arm in Ukraine. The weapon has been sent for examination. Police have opened a
criminal investigation.
Relatives told police that Voloshin had been in a depressed state, and had voiced suicidal
thoughts. Friends and family told local media that he was suffering from problems associated
with the reconstruction of Mykolaiv's airport, where he was acting director.
Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the
destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft
mechanic told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close
air support aircraft flown by Voloshin.
The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied
that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down.
Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan
Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may
have eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the
downing of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position."
According to the political scientist, "it's quite obvious that it was not in Russia's
interest to shoot down this plane, and that all this was a provocation directed against our
country."
In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can
to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's
possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or
another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon.
I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf
Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think
that the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter
disappears," the observer said.
On July 17, 2014, a Malasyia Airlines Boeing 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur
crashed outside the city of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people onboard.Kiev
blamed the crash on the Donbass independence fighters, who countered by saying they did not
have the means to bring down an aircraft flying at such a high altitude.
An inquiry by Dutch investigators concluded that the Boeing was shot down by a Buk missile
system, which it alleged was delivered to the militia from Russia and then sent back. Moscow
slammed the inquiry's bias, saying that the investigators' conclusions were based exclusively
on information received from the Ukrainian side.
A separate investigation by Almaz-Antei, maker of the Buk system, concluded that the Boeing
was shot down from territory controlled by the Ukrainian military.
The former Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, suspected of attacking Boeing 777 of Malaysia
Airlines, committed suicide. This was reported by the police of the Mykolayiv region. A retired
military pilot killed himself at his home.
"... I was amazed to learn this week that some websites are still pushing the discredited claim the Sukhoi-25 cannot reach FL330 (33'000 ft), the altitude MH17 was flying at when it was shot down. The issue is not whether a -25 can reach FL330 -- clearly it can, on combat power. The issue is why has the desperate lie that it could not been persisted in for so long? ..."
Western governments and media continue to lie about MH17. I have not yet seen a government
report which attempts to grapple with the fact that the pro-Russian rebels blamed for the
disaster lacked access to the arming codes for the Buk missile system in their possession, for
example.
I was amazed to learn this week that some websites are still pushing the discredited
claim the Sukhoi-25 cannot reach FL330 (33'000 ft), the altitude MH17 was flying at when it was
shot down. The issue is not whether a -25 can reach FL330 -- clearly it can, on combat power.
The issue is why has the desperate lie that it could not been persisted in for so
long?
Service ceiling for the Su-25M, of which the Ukrainian Air Force has at least two examples,
is 33,000 ft and higher with combat power. In any event the Ukrainians didn't need armor-plate
to fire at an unarmed 777. As I have pointed out on these pages before the -25 has a heavy,
titanium armor 'bath' designed to protect the pilot from ground fire. Remove that and you
immediately buy yourself extra performance.
You won't find any of these points acknowledged on Wikipedia. The intellectual dishonesty of
those pushing the 'Russian rebel' conspiracy theory is breath-taking.
The anger and righteous disgust by the chief RF MFA spokesman at around 1:45 from recall (I
did just skip to snippets -- but got stopped there) is worth seeing. He talks of the
Malaysian Boeing downed in Ukraine to the US rep in audience, pointing out US knows exactly
what happened because of its satellites directly overhead, and says something I'd never heard
-- repeated it a couple of times at least -- again in accusatory disgust -- that the first
accusations Russia shot down the plane came BEFORE the plane was hit!
This is true, the plane was still flying when the first accusations were made. The fact that
it hit the ground moments later belies the lies that Opolchensya and/or Russia did it. The
plane was not hit by a missile, there are entry and exit aircraft cannon holes in the left
cockpit outer skin. I have no doubts that the photos of that damning piece of evidence are
long gone but not to worry, I'm sure someone has them.
Auslander
It's truly amazing what that plucky [CIA-based] Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking
"community" can provide:
-- chemical agents and nuclear materials (deliverable by aerial drone or up close and
personal, of course),
-- rusty weapons parts and busted "barrel bombs" (I understand their "community" pioneered
the IED concept),
-- even the occasional Russian missile or aircraft.
Sadly, they aren't able to provide the one thing that the U.S. "intelligence community"
can never quite seem to find: satellite photos.
But don't worry, folks. We don't have to take nobody's word for nuthin'. YouTube and
Google Earth and "online investigations" from Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat (and you can
"verify" too) have that all covered.
Rest assured, that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" has something
really, really "good". They've already used it a few times. That worked so well that their
gonna use it again. Like real soon.
Abe , March 20, 2018 at 12:12 am
It's truly amazing what that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" can
provide:
-- chemical agents and nuclear materials (deliverable by aerial drone or up close and
personal, of course),
-- rusty weapons parts and busted "barrel bombs" (I understand their "community" pioneered
the IED concept),
-- even the occasional Russian missile or aircraft.
Sadly, they aren't able to provide the one thing that the U.S. "intelligence community"
can never quite seem to find: satellite photos.
But don't worry, folks. We don't have to take nobody's word for nuthin'. YouTube and
Google Earth and "online investigations" from Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat (and you can
"verify" too) have that all covered.
Rest assured, that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" has plenty of
something. They're using it now and they're gonna keep on using it. Unless somebody finds
some satellite photos.
"An editor at the Guardian says the poisoning was a 'brazen attack on a sovereign country'
and 'cannot go unpunished'".
So presumably The Guardian will now be agitating for the trial and severe punishment of
all those responsible for brazen and unprovoked attacks on Yugoslavia, Afghanistan. Iraq,
Libya and Syria?
All of which did rather more than poisoning two or three people (so far, non-fatally). In
Iraq alone the "coalition" is responsible for over 3 million civilian deaths. In Iraq and
Libya the civil infrastructure was demolished and the head of state murdered.
And what does The Guardian have to say about that?
Mizan Thrope • 2 days ago
Another FALSE FLAG created by the western neocons to discredit Russia. This is so
obvious. The sheeple need to wake up.
Posted by: the pessimist | Mar 16, 2018 2:03:28 PM |
21
Very reminiscent of the MH17 campaign that was used to bully the reluctant Europeans into
imposing sanctions on Russia. Accusations were made and a narrative put forward immediately
without presenting clear evidence or waiting for an investigation. Through repetition this
narrative has become dogma in the West despite the fact that supporting evidence has still not
been forthcoming. It seems that after 9-11 it became clear that quickly putting out a
narrative, with the support of the press, and demonizing anyone with any public stature who
questions the basic story could be successful, even when there were thousands of eye witnesses
and many flaws in the official explanation. The facts, or what really happened no longer matter
once the narrative has taken root.
My question is what kinds of threats are being used to keep potential dissenters in line
now. French banks were punished over the mistrial deal and it was abandoned. Now the stakes
seem to be higher and the risk of defections has increased, so what is the stick?
Clyde Davis: " until I hear a more convincing explanation I'm sticking to my guns."
1. Russian dissident oligarchs: loads of money; baleful influence and financial tentacles extend into the very heart of the
UK establishment; all sorts of dodgy connections in the former Soviet Union; zero scruples; hate Putin.
2. Ukraine: fascist regime; involved in a war with Russia already; just as likely to have access to old Soviet Novichok (if it
exists) as Russia; just as capable of manufacturing it as Russia if it doesn't; zero scruples; hate Putin.
3. Turkey: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; already have their own chemical weapons programme; perfectly
capable of manufacturing this stuff; previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples; hate Putin.
4. Saudi Arabia: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; loads of money; baleful influence and financial
tentacles extend into the very heart of the UK establishment; happy to export or facilitate terrorism anywhere in the world including
their supposed 'allies'; zero scruples; hate Putin.
5. Anti-Trump forces in the US: Demented in their obsession with 'Trump-Russia' collusion; angry because they're losing a proxy
war with Russia in Syria; already have access to Soviet Novichok (if it exists); perfectly capable of manufacturing it if it doesn't;
previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples; hate Putin.
6. Israel: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; probably the best military/scientific capability in
the world; certainly capable of manufacturing this stuff; previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples when pursuing what
they believe to be their own best interests; hate Putin.
To me this is a repeat of the MH17 case study with its:
Propaganda preparation – media full of shot down Uki military planes vs. media full of CW victims in Syria for which
Russia is to blame,
"Rush" to judgement whodunit – former Australian Prime Minister Abbot publicly pointed finger at the Russian rebels
in Ukraine 7 hours after the shootdown vs. the UK Prime Minister blames Russia a day after her event,
Soviet Union = Russia when convenient – the Soviet designed and made BUK becomes the exclusively Russian made BUK
vs. the Soviet Designed CW becomes the exclusively Russian produced CW (with a touch of the good old British propaganda – maybe
Russia lost control over it! => well, maybe US "lost control" over it when it was helping it's client Uzbekistan destroy it)
Logic matters not – let us find a BUK coming all the way from Russia instead of looking at tens of such systems
operated by the Uki troops, apparently four near the area where the shoot down happened vs. let us look at poison or a trained
chemist coming all the way from Russia (how when one cannot get even a small bottle of drink on a plane?) whilst there is a
British own source 12 km away,
When questions arise and contrary items of evidence come out, just ignore and keep drumming "the proven facts" (the
science is settled) from the blame package prepared in advance – an alternative, facts-supported explanation will never be
accepted no matter what.
The post-modern West operates on evidence-free pure emotion-eliciting narratives ("Putin killed my baby") on the shoulders
of MSM and troll farms. Any unauthorised explanation, such as Mr Murray's, is declared a conspiracy theory to be ridiculed.
Above mean that Ukraine, Malaysia and Malaysia Airlines bore certain responsibilities with regards to the operations of flight
MH17 based on national an international law.
Russia has very bad lawyers. The investigation is completed.
Minister of Security and Justice Stef Blok and his
Ukrainian counterpart Pavlo Petrenko today signed a bilateral treaty on international legal
cooperation in relation to the downing of flight MH17. The treaty provides that those suspected
of downing flight MH17 can be prosecuted in the Netherlands in respect of all 298 victims. This
means that all next of kin will have the same rights in the Dutch criminal proceedings.
Minister of Security and Justice Stef Blok and his Ukrainian counterpart Pavlo Petrenko sign
the treaty.
The countries whose prosecution authorities are cooperating in the Joint Investigation Team
(JIT) – Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, Ukraine and the Netherlands – this week
jointly decided that the prosecution and trial of the suspects would take place in the
Netherlands, in a process rooted in close and ongoing international cooperation and support.
The JIT's criminal investigation is still underway. A decision on prosecution will be taken by
the Dutch Public Prosecution Service in due course.
The bilateral treaty with Ukraine eliminates any doubts that the prosecution could take
place in the Netherlands in respect of all the victims, not only those who were Dutch
nationals. The victims of the MH17 disaster included people from 17 different countries.
The treaty also makes it possible for any Ukrainian defendants to be examined by video link.
Provision has also been made for the transfer of enforcement of any prison sentences that may
be imposed. This is important since the Ukrainian constitution prohibits the country from
extraditing its own nationals.
'The signing of this treaty is an important step towards establishing the truth, trying
those responsible and achieving justice for the next of kin,' Mr Blok said. 'We are grateful to
Ukraine for cooperating effectively with us, including in the agreement of this treaty.'
The MH17 treaty and its implementing legislation will be submitted to the House of
Representatives for consideration as soon as possible.
"... Of course Kiev junta shot down MH17, otherwise US would provide satellite images and other details obtained by high tech devices. But so far nothing has been published. Speaks volumes, no? ..."
"... Well, nobody really knows, what we do know is that Ukraine was the one directing where the MH17 should fly, and Ukraine had just one day earlier been bombing the rebels from airplanes in just that area, and Ukraine was responsibly for what happens inside its airspace, and that Ukraine benefited hugely from the destruction of the MH17. ..."
Hrm? Seems Russia is one of the few countries that does not have a habit of shooting down
civilian airliners.
"Siberia Airlines Flight 1812[1] was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air
Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to
Novosibirsk,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
"Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3
July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by the United States Navy
guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III, killing all
290 people on "board.https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_...
Of course Kiev junta shot down MH17, otherwise US would provide satellite images and other
details obtained by high tech devices. But so far nothing has been published. Speaks volumes,
no?
Yes, that is a good point, USA had satellites passing over Ukraine when it happened, USA
saw and recorded everything, Russia said this and demand that USA release the images, and USA
itself admitted they had satellites over Ukraine during the event . However USA refused to
reveal the satellite images. Which would have proven or disproven everything.
Well, nobody really knows, what we do know is that Ukraine was the one directing where the
MH17 should fly, and Ukraine had just one day earlier been bombing the rebels from airplanes
in just that area, and Ukraine was responsibly for what happens inside its airspace, and that
Ukraine benefited hugely from the destruction of the MH17.
Of course not. Different country, different government, different ideology.
However anti-Russians often mix up Russia with Soviet when they want to say something
negative, and pro-Russian often mix up Russia with Soviet when they want to say something
positive.
An Anti-Russian would say "Russia exterminate millions in GULAG" and a pro-Russian would
say "Russia won world war 2" neither is true of course. Most of the people exterminated in
GULAG were Russians and while Russia was the largest country in the USSR and did the most to
fight Nazism, USSR also consisted of many other ethnic groups that was critical to the
success of USSR.
February 14, 2018 " Information Clearing House " - Every
empire needs a scary external threat, led by a singular menacing villain, to justify its massive military expenditures, consolidation
of authoritarian powers, and endless wars. For the five decades after the end of World War II, Moscow played this role perfectly.
But the fall of Soviet Union meant, at least for a while, that the Kremlin could no longer sustain sufficient fear levels. After
some brief, largely unsuccessful auditions for possible replacements -- Asian actors
like China and
a splurging Japan were considered
-- the post-9/11 era elevated a cast of Muslim understudies to the starring role: Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, ISIS and Abu Bakr
al-Baghdadi, and "jihadism" generally kept fear alive.
The lack of any 9/11-type catastrophic attack on U.S. (or any Western) soil for the past 17 years, along with the killing of a
pitifully aged, ailing bin Laden and the erosion of ISIS, has severely compromised their ongoing viability as major bad guys. So
now -- just as a film studio revitalizes a once-successful super-villain franchise for a new generation of moviegoers -- we're back
to the Russians occupying center stage.
That Barack Obama spent eight years (including up through his final year-end news conference) mocking the notion that Russia posed
a serious threat to the U.S. given their size and capabilities, and that he
even tried
repeatedly to accommodate and partner with Russian President Vladimir Putin, is of no concern: In the internet age, "2016" is
regarded as ancient history, drowned out by an endless array of new threats pinned by a united media on the Russkie Plague. Moreover,
human nature craves a belief in an existential foreign threat because it confers a sense of purpose and cause, strengthens tribal
unity and identity, permits scapegoating, shifts blame for maladies from internal to external causes, and (like religion) offers
a simplifying theory for understanding a complex world.
One of the prime accusations sustaining this script is that the Kremlin is drowning the West in "fake news" and other forms of
propaganda. One can debate its impact and magnitude, but disinformation campaigns are something the U.S., Russia, and countless other
nations have done to one another for centuries, and there is
convincing evidence that Russia does this
sort of thing now. But evidence of one threat does not mean that all claimed threats are real, nor does it mean that that tactic
is exclusively wielded by one side.
Over the past year, there have been numerous claims made by Western intelligence agencies, mindlessly accepted as true in the
Western press, that have turned out to be baseless, if not deliberate scams. Just today, it
was revealed
that Dutch Foreign Minister Halbe Zijlstra lied when he claimed he was at a meeting with Putin, in which the Russian president "said
he considered Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic states as part of a 'Greater Russia.'"
"Fake news" is certainly something to worry about when it emanates from foreign adversaries, but it is at least as concerning
and threatening, if not more so, when emanating from one's own governments and media. And there are countless, highly significant
examples beyond today's of such propaganda that emanates from within.
... ... ...
If there's any lesson that should unite everyone in the West, it's that the greatest skepticism is required when it comes to government
and media claims about the nature of foreign threats. If we're going to rejuvenate a Cold War, or submit to greater military spending
and government powers in the name of stopping alleged Russian aggression, we should at least ensure that the information on which
those campaigns succeed are grounded in fact. Even a casual review of the propaganda spewing forth from Western power centers over
the last year leaves little doubt that the exact opposite is happening.
This article was originally published by "
The Intercept "
Russia accusations are a false flag!!-No evidence-Zero NADA!!
Rather than Russia how about Mossad false flags??!
More likely .............and the silence is deafening.......... at theZionist owned MSMs in the USA!!!!
Dollars to Doughnuts-Israel is the perpetrator
I suppose I am too naive to understand the
hysteria and indignation that claims of Russia
Interference in the 2016 american electoral process garners.
The US openly calls for regime change in Syria. Hung Saddam
Hussein after a show trial. Arranged Muammar Gaddafi's sodomization
and assassination.
Do americans not realize that in levelling the accusation that Putin-Russia
successfully subverted the US electoral process that you are conceding that Russia has the power to subjugate (bring under domination
or control, especially by conquest.) the US electoral process, its government, institutions and public perception.
If americans are going to continue to make this outlandish claim for which no evidence has yet to be produced then Putin's Russia
must be recognized as the world hegemon and the indispensable- Exceptional nation. What does that do to the narrative of the "shining
city set upon a hill".
The US is blinded by its own conceit.
Frankly, what I have seen in the past 20 years, the people in San Francisco might be better off under Russian federation management
than it has been under the selected, elected, salaried, privileged 527 USA neo clowns who manage Americans in America. At least
the Russians might not give USA money to foreigners, prevent Americans from drilling their own gas and oil, tax Americans so the
USA can give the tax revenues to the corporations, and send American jobs and educational knowledge to far away places; as the
NEO CLOWN management has done.
My personal experience with Russia people with whom I have worked is they are just exactly like Americans, quite a bit better
educated, may be a little more honest.. so the question becomes under which managing government would 340,000,000 Americans be
better off: the Russian Federation or the 527 neocon-selected, media-elected, salaried, privileged USA neo clowns? Actually, i
think both governments are in need of being better arranged to respond to the needs and intentions of their people instead of
using those they govern to satisfy the Oligarchs.
"9/11-type catastrophic attack on U.S." a self-inflicted "catastrophic attack". Perhaps the USI should quit murdering people at
home and abroad... maybe that way some semblence of symathy could be mustered up.
Oh and the "shooter" in Florida.. notuce it's not a "terrorist"? So this kid was a "shooter". Pfft. Call it what it is. He was
and is a terrorist. Treat him as one would treat the invented funded and propped up "terrorists" abroad. Send the kid to 'Gitmo'
(how i loathe that americanized word)
"... MH17 still has not been solved, in my opinion it never will. The strategy seems to be to continue vague accusations against Russia, though nobody ever explained Russia's interest in destroying a western passenger plane. ..."
"... As Jimmy Carter once said, 'it is unimportant who fires the first shot in a war, the origins of war always go years back'. In the case of Russia, we now know, at least to 2006. ..."
Our Dutch minister of Foreign Affairs, Halbe Zijlstra, just a few months in office, had to
admit that he in 2006 lied about being in Putin's country house, where he heard Putin say
that White Russia, the Baltic States and Khazakstan 'would be nice to have'.
Zijlstra yesterday resigned.
43 out of 150 gave a vote of non confidence against prime minister Rutte, whoa had to admit
that he knew about the lie since several weeks.
Zijlstra's excuse as that he wanted to protect someone else, who was there, and heard
Putin say these things.
This someone else, it was revealed, had been Van der Veer, now former Shell CEO, and now
member of the NATO strategic commission.
Alas Van der Veer denied have heard the words, and having told Zijlstra, though 'Putin had
made a statement more or less like what Zijlstra lied about'.
Dutch comments are that Shell has considerable interests in Russia.
We now wonder how Zijlstra's lie surfaced after twelve years.
He was scheduled to meet Lavrov a few days from now.
My, and many in my country, conclude that there is deliberate Russia, or Putin,
bashing.
Many already knew this, but never before was it so clear that an important politician with us
had to resign.
MH17 still has not been solved, in my opinion it never will.
The strategy seems to be to continue vague accusations against Russia, though nobody ever
explained Russia's interest in destroying a western passenger plane.
As Jimmy Carter once said, 'it is unimportant who fires the first shot in a war, the
origins of war always go years back'.
In the case of Russia, we now know, at least to 2006.
Wrong is that Zijlstra in 2006 worked for Shell, he just was a member of the
representatives for the town of Utrecht.Pandora's box went open in yesterday evening Jinek
talkshow, Rutte concluded gas deals for E Ukraine for Shell.
MH17 now also comes into a different light, why Russia must be blamed for the catastrophe,
and why we still dot not know who did it.
"... I would say most definitely, as is the case in Germany, and many western European countries. Just look at how they mis-handled the MH-17 investigation. The CIA is deeply embedded in the MSM in the USA and Europe, and has been since after WWII. Look into "Operation Mockingbird" if you are curious. ..."
"... The US deep state certainly has close allies within the secret services of European NATO countries. They probably have the tightest connections with secret services of Anglosaxon countries like Britain and Australia and with Germany, where US secret services have their many bases in Europe, but there are certainly also close connections with the deep state in the Netherlands. ..."
I would say most definitely, as is the case in Germany, and many western European
countries. Just look at how they mis-handled the MH-17 investigation. The CIA is deeply
embedded in the MSM in the USA and Europe, and has been since after WWII. Look into
"Operation Mockingbird" if you are curious.
Hardly "the Dutch" as a whole. Not even necessarily the Durch secret services as a whole.
But, after all, that report was not even about an official statement from the Dutch secret
services, it was just a leak from unnamed sources within the Dutch secret services (if even
that attribution is correct). The US deep state certainly has close allies within the secret
services of European NATO countries. They probably have the tightest connections with secret
services of Anglosaxon countries like Britain and Australia and with Germany, where US secret
services have their many bases in Europe, but there are certainly also close connections with
the deep state in the Netherlands.
Skip Scott , January 31, 2018 at 8:53 am
Yes. Of course I wasn't referring to the Dutch people. Their government, and their MSM,
however do carry water for the US Deep State. Also like you say, the secret services are not
monolithic. They are highly compartmentalized. Ray McGovern is a former analyst for the CIA,
and he is obviously a highly moral person. VIPS was founded by people who have witnessed the
corruption of the intelligence agencies firsthand, and have organized to expose and fight
that corruption.
"... It's been three years on since the MH17 tragedy. How hopeful are you that all questions into the terrible event will be answered? ..."
"... Your thoughts on the way the investigation is being carried out, considering how controversial this incident is? ..."
"... The Dutch are in these NATO surveillance planes, AWACS, and two of these planes, if I remember correctly, have been in the area where the accident happened in this part of Ukraine. Until now we're not familiar with the experience of these two NATO planes, which made surveillance in this part of Ukraine. They must be familiar with all the events in this area, and the Dutch had been on these planes as well if I am correct. Nothing of these things have been explained to the public. ..."
The tragedy led to an international inquiry carried out by a Joint Investigation Team (JIT)
comprising aviation experts and investigators from the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia,
Malaysia, and Ukraine.
The investigation paid little attention to data provided by Russian authorities, which
provided the information to understand how the crash happened.
Today, many questions remain unanswered regarding the crash, including the process of the
investigation.
RT: It's been three years on since the MH17 tragedy. How hopeful are you that all
questions into the terrible event will be answered?
Willy Wimmer: I think there is almost no hope to get answers to the bag of questions we have
because of this tragic accident. We shouldn't forget that within a few weeks a second Malaysian
plane came down. The fate of those two planes is unsolved even today. This doesn't fit into the
experience of air accidents we have in Europe. I won't mention other parts of the world.
Remember, a few years ago we had this tragic accident with a German plane in the mountainous
region in the southern part of France. Within days we knew what happened. When you look at the
tragic events with these two Malaysian airplanes, nobody knows what happened. This is an
uncertainty which makes it possible that those who died in the airspace of Ukraine died for a
second time because there is no answer to the question why it happened; and they died for the
second time because there is no proper investigation. That is a reality we face today.
RT: Your thoughts on the way the investigation is being carried out, considering how
controversial this incident is?
WW: I think the standards of the investigations we have in Europe, and I won't speak about
others part of the world, is different. We know within hours, or within days, what happened and
who was responsible. From the very beginning of this investigation, which is called
investigation, we all have seen from our experience that it has been politicized from the very
beginning.
The interesting thing, I live in the neighborhood of the Dutch border, and we like to go to
the Netherlands. The Dutch are in these NATO surveillance planes, AWACS, and two of these
planes, if I remember correctly, have been in the area where the accident happened in this part
of Ukraine. Until now we're not familiar with the experience of these two NATO planes, which
made surveillance in this part of Ukraine. They must be familiar with all the events in this
area, and the Dutch had been on these planes as well if I am correct. Nothing of these things
have been explained to the public.
"... Mid November the Dutch parliamentarian, Pieter Omtzigt (Christian Democrat), came under fire for allegedly having stage-managed, at a meeting at the Free University in Amsterdam, the statement of a witness contradicting the official explanation of the downing of Flight MH17. A text message in which Omtzigt made a helpful suggestion to the witness how to summarise his story given that he would get one minute at best, was passed on to the Dutch daily, NRC Handelsblad, which raised the issue of the MP's credibility and called for his resignation. ..."
"... This was not only a way of getting rid of the one parliamentarian who has consistently demanded of the Dutch government that it live up to the Prime Minister's vow to get to the bottom of the MH17 affair. ..."
"... This is why after half a year, his courtesy towards an Ukrainian man was suddenly turned into something close to treason. ..."
"... When the MH17 meeting at the Free University happened in May last, the Dutch general election results were only two months old and no new government had yet been formed. The video of the witness making his statement (he was primarily interested in obtaining asylum in the Netherlands, or so it seemed) was circulated without causing any concern. The claim that one or more jet fighters had been spotted near MH17 had been made many times before and by far more reliable witnesses; in this case it was not even the man himself but has wife who had seen the planes. ..."
"... However, as Marx famously put it in the Communist Manifesto, the government is only a committee for handling the day-to-day affairs of the capitalist class; and in their plans, scrapping the dividend tax had long been on the agenda. ..."
"... By unearthing a half-year-old issue of no consequence they also got rid of an MH17 critic who had been stubbornly following the government in its obvious attempt to kick the issue into the long grass. ..."
"... Kees van der Pijl (with thanks to Babette U.) ..."
"... Published at http://oorlogisgeenoplossing.blogspot.gr/p/blog-page_0.html ..."
Mid November the Dutch parliamentarian, Pieter Omtzigt (Christian Democrat), came under
fire for allegedly having stage-managed, at a meeting at the Free University in Amsterdam, the
statement of a witness contradicting the official explanation of the downing of Flight MH17. A
text message in which Omtzigt made a helpful suggestion to the witness how to summarise his
story given that he would get one minute at best, was passed on to the Dutch daily, NRC
Handelsblad, which raised the issue of the MP's credibility and called for his
resignation.
This was not only a way of getting rid of the one parliamentarian who has consistently
demanded of the Dutch government that it live up to the Prime Minister's vow to get to the
bottom of the MH17 affair. Omtzigt was also his party's spokesman on tax matters, pensions, and
the euro and there he was an even greater liability to the powers that be. This is why after
half a year, his courtesy towards an Ukrainian man was suddenly turned into something close to
treason.
When the MH17 meeting at the Free University happened in May last, the Dutch general
election results were only two months old and no new government had yet been formed. The video
of the witness making his statement (he was primarily interested in obtaining asylum in the
Netherlands, or so it seemed) was circulated without causing any concern. The claim that one or
more jet fighters had been spotted near MH17 had been made many times before and by far more
reliable witnesses; in this case it was not even the man himself but has wife who had seen the
planes.
Now fast-forward to November, when NRC Handelsblad came with its 'scoop', six months after
the fact. After a tortuous cabinet formation taking all summer and comfortably interrupted by
full holidays taken, there now was a government of mainstream Liberals, neoliberals, Christian
Democrats and Christian fundamentalists (who actually held up the negotiations for another week
because their leader had to attend a rock concert in Germany). This coalition only had 76
seats, a majority of one. It also surprised the nation with an announcement that it would scrap
the dividend tax, a gift to business of 1.4 billion euros per year -- although none of the
coalition partners had proposed this in their election manifestoes.
However, as Marx famously put it in the Communist Manifesto, the government is only a
committee for handling the day-to-day affairs of the capitalist class; and in their plans,
scrapping the dividend tax had long been on the agenda.
... ... ...
Was this was the drop that made the bucket overflow? For within days, NRC Handelsblad, the
mouthpiece of the Liberal party, began what can only be considered a character assassination of
this, one of our finest parliamentarians. By unearthing a half-year-old issue of no consequence
they also got rid of an MH17 critic who had been stubbornly following the government in its
obvious attempt to kick the issue into the long grass.
Meanwhile his own Christian
Democratic fraction leader, instead of defending Omtzigt, chose to stoke the flames of paranoia
about 'Russian meddling' in Dutch affairs, thus heightening the climate of suspicion in which
the campaign against Omtzigt had been made possible in the first place. The victim could do
little else but officially declare he would no longer be the spokesman on the MH17
portfolio.
But let one think this means the case is closed. More will follow.
What is the problem of having contacts with Russia ? As to the Ukraine, USA, EU and NATO
should leave there. We in Europe do not want the war NATO, USA and EU are seeking. We want
normal relations with the country we had a lot of trade with, much of which has disappeared
because of sanctions, made possible by the deaths of over 300 passengers aboard MH17.
My country, the Netherlands, objected most to sanctions, we exported a lot to Russia, on
the day after the disaster objections had vanished. So it was very lucky for those who wanted
to impose sanctions that a plane from Schiphol Amsterdam was hit. Despite that Russia just
has disadvantages of the disaster, and the west advantages, the continuing investigation,
that will never end, Peyton Place, does anything possible to continue stating vague
accusations against Putin.
Suspect Ukraine has been permitted to take part in the investigations.
"... So the Ukrainian government is admitting that their previous narrative is false – and that the ultra-rghtist Svoboda and Right Sector, who were the military arm of the Maidan protesters, provoked the incident that led to Yanukovich's overthrow. ..."
"... are opposed to the Minsk agreement, brokered by the EU, which makes concessions to the east Ukrainians. ..."
The truth is often ignored, at first, and when that becomes impossible, truth-tellers are often punished. As two incidents starkly
reveal, this is certainly the case when it comes to the civil war in Ukraine and Washington's unfolding cold war with Russia.
The first illustration of our truth-telling principle occurred after the "Maidan revolution" had already captured the imagination
of the Western media, which was busy promulgating the official view as given expression by US government officials. According to
this narrative, the "protesters" were heroes, the government of "Russian-backed' Viktor Yanukovich was a coven of devils, and the
catalyzing incident that led to Yanukovich's ouster, the
shooting of protesters in the
Maidan, was the work of the Berkut, the Ukrainian government's militarized police.
There's just one problem with this story: it isn't true. A
leaked phone call between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas
Paet and European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton, revealed that the protesters were shot by their
own leaders – the radical nationalists who had military control of the Maiden.
... ... ...
Ashton's main concern seemed to be that this would get out and discredit the new government "from the very beginning."
Oh, but not to worry: it didn't get out, at least not in the United States. There were oblique mentions of the recording in the
mainstream media, but only weeks afterward and then without any specifics: two months after the fact, the Los Angeles Timesreferred to it in
the vaguest terms, only to dismiss it as a "conspiracy theory." The New York Times didn't cover it: neither did the War
Street Journal, Time magazine, or any of the other usual suspects. The Daily Beast, typically, served as a mouthpiece
for the official Washington-Kiev account,
citing Dr. Bogomolets as claiming her conversation with Paet was a "misunderstanding." Yet Paet didn't cite her as his sole source:
he said "all the evidence." No doubt the Estonians have their own sources in the country, and it's improbable the Foreign
Minister would have made such an assertion based on a single person's testimony.
In any case, the story was pretty much buried here in the US, with the exception of
this space and a few other
alternative news sources.
But in Europe, it was a different story: the German public television station ARD carried
a report which threw the identity of the Maidan shooters
into serious question. And more recently the BBC produced a documentary, "The
Untold Story of the Maidan Massacre," in which eyewitnesses assert that the Berkut were fired on from positions controlled by
the ultra-nationalist Svoboda Party, which, along with the neo-Nazi "Right Sector" organization, ran Maidan security.
Still, the story was ignored in the US, but that may not be possible much longer, and the reason springs from an unlikely source:
the current Ukrainian government of President Petro Poroshenko.
Last week Ukrainian police
raided the homes
of Svoboda Party leadersOleksandr Sych, who served
as Deputy Prime Minister in the post-Maidan government, and
Ole Pankevich,
whose 2013 appearance at a neo-Nazi memorial event provoked the ire of the World Jewish Congress. The Ukrainian prosecutor's office
confirmed that the raid was conducted as part of an investigation into the Maidan shootings:
"The court warrant for the raid on the apartment of Pankevich, a former MP and the ex-head of Lviv regional council, explicitly
referred to a BBC documentary on the subject, according to a copy of the warrant In the documentary, journalist Gabriel Gatehouse
spoke to an opposition nationalist rifleman who had acknowledged having fired on riot police in the morning of February 20."
"[A]lso refers to video footage that showed a rifleman firing out of the Hotel Ukraina, situated on Maidan. The room from
which he fired was occupied at the time by Pankevich, according to the court warrant.
"Police also raided the apartment of Sich, vice-prime minister in the immediate post-Maidan government in 2014, also in
connection with shots fired from the same hotel, where he was also staying on February 20.
"An assistant to Ukraine's prosecutor general, Vladislav Kutsenko, confirmed to the Ukrainian TV channel 112 that searches
of the Svoboda leaders' apartments were linked to an investigation of the February 20 events."
So the Ukrainian government is admitting that their previous narrative is false – and that the ultra-rghtist Svoboda and Right
Sector, who were the military arm of the Maidan protesters, provoked the incident that led to Yanukovich's overthrow.
Why this stunning turnaround?
Both Svoboda and Right Sector have declared war on the Poroshenko regime and are calling for a "national
revolution" – one that would install them in power. The ultra-nationalists are opposed to the Minsk agreement, brokered by
the EU, which makes concessions to the east Ukrainians.
The far right is accusing Poroshenko of "betraying the revolution." They scoff at the ceasefire as a "sellout" because they want
the civil war to continue: and as Poroshenko makes draconian cuts in the government budget in order to mollify Ukraine's creditors,
and to ensure the flow of Western funding, the rightists are gaining ground politically. And they are getting increasingly violent,
staging a riot in front of the parliament building in
which three officers were
killed by
a grenade hurled at policemen: 130 cops were injured. The rightists were protesting the decision by the parliament to grant
the eastern rebels some small degree of autonomy. This incident followed a
series of
shoot-outs with the armed rightist gang known as Right
Sector, which played a key role
in the Maidan protest movement.
That the Poroshenko government, which had previously stonewalled any serious effort to investigate the shooting deaths that sent
Yanukovich packing, is playing this card now is an indication of the regime's desperation in the face of a challenge from the ultra-right.
For to upend the official narrative – one that is fully supported by their Western sponsors, and their amen corner in the media –
is to subvert the very foundations of the post-Maidan order. If the truth comes out, the ultra-nationalists may be finished – but
so may the government that exposes their murderous role.
"I've lived in many countries and have found the people in all of them to be wonderful,
just as the American people are."
Edward Abbey: "The tragedy of modern war is not so much that the young men die but that
they die fighting each other--instead of their real enemies back home in the capitals."
I would totaly agree with most of this. Away from anything political, many Americans are
just ordinary down to earth people. Even in geo-politics, a percentage, perhaps 10% fully
understand the dirty shit that is going on, and that in the name of the state of USA, what
their state is doing. But Americans as a general population goes, are different from the
other five eyes. Much bragado and exceptionalism and theater. This is general population, as
compared to the other five eyes. Not individuals.
The general attitude/culture whatever it can be called seems to go back a long way
Don.
My father in law who as an 18/19 year old was part of defence of US airstrips as the US
island hopped to Japan had no enminty for the Japanes but dissliked Americans from that
time.
Same for two relatives who were in Vietnam, one a conscript, the other a carrer military
officer. I never really understood that, and it was only in the months after MH17 I began to
feel the same.
But the question is this. Why do they not feel this way towards other five eye forces they
have fought alongside?
I watch a lot of youtube videos, when I can't do much else, on things that interest me.
When dealing with another culture, some of the US videos are very good, but in others, the
exceptionalism or perhaps condescension towards the 'lower' culture just oozes out and I find
these unwatchable even though I am interested in what they are filming.
There is a huge amount of inovation come from the US, and this I like reading about or
watching, but there is also something else about the US, this is just speaking of population
in general rather than idividuals, is a general feeling of arrogance, or exceptionalism, that
has come perhaps from the huge inovations the US has made, and also generations of
indoctrination.
This would be unnoticable to Americans who have grown up and lived their lives thinking
this is the norm.
As far as swallowing propaganda goes, all people in all countries are the same.
In Australia, not one fucking polition made waves that reached the media about MH17.
Although very few people I know, make that no one trusts MSM or their politicians, because it
was all around them, thought MH17 had been shot down by the 'rebel' side and Russia may or
may not have had involvement. People are the same all over, they fall for propaganda if the
lie is repeated constantly. In the US, this has produced a general culture of arrogance and
exceptionalism that has killed many millions around the world and therein lies the
difference. I have thought for the last few years now, that the only way to break this
culture, is for the US to go through what Russia went through in the nineties.
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. We can pretend that every culture is smart and just a-okay or
we can seriously look at some glaring problems that exist in the USA collectively. Its not
unique to them either, a lot of the west holds quite similar attitudes, but in America its
just taken to it's extreme.
One only has to look towards the end of the Roman, Athenian or Ottoman states to get a
sense of this too. Culture at the end of most empires is usually often very "flawed" (for
lack of a better word) and filled with its own hubris. You can blame it on the state, or
media, or anything really, but it doesn't change much besides the explanation of why.
"... The "online investigations" propaganda operation at Bellingcat site very much includes the comments section of the site. Don't expect Bellingcat to perform any actual journalism or substantive investigation. The function of the Atlantic Council's Bellingcat site is to serve as a propaganda channel for "fake news" and "alternative facts". ..."
The "online investigations" propaganda operation at Bellingcat site very much includes
the comments section of the site. Don't expect Bellingcat to perform any actual journalism or
substantive investigation. The function of the Atlantic Council's Bellingcat site is to serve
as a propaganda channel for "fake news" and "alternative facts".
"... Oh, our pet Martian, the Wizard wants proof that MH17 was a false-flag organised by Western intelligence and paid for by Kolomoiskii? Because you are also my pet Martian, I will ask you a question – do not you think that the whole chain of command of the Russian air-defence which (supposedly) shot-down MH17 would have been identified three years after the event? ..."
"... So far the best the CIA could do is – we know that the Russians did it, but if we showed you the proof we would have to kill you (because our satellite images are so secret). But the satellite images of blowing up the Russian Metrojet over Egypt that our terrorists did were not so secret because they were proving our (rare) success. ..."
"... Yes, they were clearly corrupt. NATO and NATO flunkies. Up to you, Wiz, to do a little more reading on it. Resistance were never capturng a Buk unit. You really think, with all of the caution Russia has been showing in all of this, they will be driving one across the border and say, 'Here you are. Have fun!' Ukraine is also equipped with Buk. Flight was shadowed by two Ukraine jets. Russia was releasing all of their information on it. Ukraine even was sealing air-traffic control records. ..."
"... USA was releasing almost nothing, one satellite photo that is displaying nothing of meaning. ..."
"... We have had this conversation before. I tried to explain to you the incompetence of the Western investigators based on a lack of proper metallurgical analysis of the impact holes. You will also recall that I proposed some advanced analytical methods that apparently are not available to the investigators. Added to this, I doubt that the "so called" experts could even operate the instrumentation. And yes, I have given technical presentation methods of analysis in international symposiums to try to correct improper/wrong approaches – seems I could not fix stupid (e.g. Be analysis). ..."
Not at all.
Mr. John Kerry has told to the whole world that the US has satellite pics of the downing.
We are still waiting to see the precious evidence. Are you aware of Mr. Kerry claim? Some
problems with the memory?
More about Kolomoysky, the Jewish oligarch implicated in the downing of MH17: http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/10/mosiychuk-assassination-attempt.html
Oh, our pet Martian, the Wizard wants proof that MH17 was a false-flag organised by
Western intelligence and paid for by Kolomoiskii? Because you are also my pet Martian, I will
ask you a question – do not you think that the whole chain of command of the Russian
air-defence which (supposedly) shot-down MH17 would have been identified three years after
the event?
Instead, there is an attempt at this by the plausibly deniable "citizen-journalists"
Bellingcat. The fact that Bellingcat are insinuating this is a mighty proof that there is no
evidence that the Russians did it, because the citizen-journalism does not need the same
degree of proof as an official intelligence agency assessment.
So far the best the CIA could do is – we know that the Russians did it, but if we
showed you the proof we would have to kill you (because our satellite images are so secret).
But the satellite images of blowing up the Russian Metrojet over Egypt that our terrorists
did were not so secret because they were proving our (rare) success.
Your somewhat excitable ramble round your mind has not produced anything relevant to my
Comment. I said nothing about all the Russian activity you hypothesised. You have given me no
reason to follow you in interest in Bellingcat.
Why anyone should think a highly risky false flag operation with seriously bad
consequences if exposed is a priori more likely than a stuff up resulting from a missile
launcher crew mistakenly thinking they were firing at a Ukrainian military aircraft escapes
me. And that deems to be consistent with the conclusion of the five nation inquiry. Feel free
to prove that was incompetent or corrupt.
Yes, they were clearly corrupt. NATO and NATO flunkies. Up to you, Wiz, to do a little more reading on it. Resistance were never capturng a Buk unit. You really think, with all of the caution Russia has been showing in all of this, they
will be driving one across the border and say, 'Here you are. Have fun!' Ukraine is also equipped with Buk. Flight was shadowed by two Ukraine jets. Russia was releasing all of their information on it. Ukraine even was sealing air-traffic control records.
USA was releasing almost nothing, one satellite photo that is displaying nothing of
meaning.
Not, of course, to saying that I know, but I know which side is looking suspicious.
The Russians are holding the contents of the black box as an ace card, in the event the US
does more than merely insinuate Russian culpability. As in Syria the Russians are being
overly cautious but they know time is on their side, given the reckless stupidity of the
American Imperium.
We have had this conversation before. I tried to explain to you the incompetence of
the Western investigators based on a lack of proper metallurgical analysis of the impact
holes. You will also recall that I proposed some advanced analytical methods that apparently
are not available to the investigators. Added to this, I doubt that the "so called" experts
could even operate the instrumentation. And yes, I have given technical presentation methods
of analysis in international symposiums to try to correct improper/wrong approaches –
seems I could not fix stupid (e.g. Be analysis).
Max van der Werff has posted another article on MH17 that gives his opinion on the current
state of play. The article is in Dutch so most will need the machine translator. There is
little new in the public view but Max is always worth reading. http://www.kremlintroll.nl/?p=1394#more-1394
I am responding to give an overview, as some of his comments might not be clear in machine
translation, which is the only access others would have.
He compares the operation of the JIT ("The investigation is going well" ahem) to the
"investigative" efforts of the Dutch government into its own war crimes in Indonesia,
including such tactics as giving only one investigator access to the archives, for four
months total (that which was not found in that period does not exist, by definition), and
avoiding allowing Dutch and Indonesian witnesses to come forward with testimony. Van der
Werff mentions that the Indonesian matter was something into which he had put much effort
when he was younger.
He then discusses the "economization with truth" for which the secret services are
notorious, and scoffs rightly at the JIT's newfound eyewitnesses, as reliability of such
eyewitnesses decline with time, and material (circumstantial) evidence generally is far more
reliable in reconstructing events.
He mentions the stress laid on the Ukrainian story of the absence of flights on the day of
the shooting, which serves the purpose of justifying the lack of Ukrainian radar data.
He quotes the lead investigator to the effect that the JIT cannot state whether Almaz
Antey's results are valid or not, yet the JIT rejects those results.
He closes by pointing out that if the JIT's claims are valid (the Higgins claim of the
"rent-a-Buk), the Netherlands should take Russia to court. He asks rhetorically why this has
not happened, and suggests sarcastically that the answer likely lies in the archives, tying
back to the matter of state dishonesty about war crimes in Indonesia.
the very best example is when their soldiers shot down the malaysian plane NH17
over Donbass in Ukraine!
This is indeed the very best example of ad nauseam western fake news that pushes
people to look elsewhere for alternative reporting, if possible backed by tangible facts.
Fake news go back a very long time! The sovjet block developed it to perfection. Now Russia
still use it. the very best example is when their soldiers shot down the malaysian plane NH17
over Donbass in Ukraine! The FSB (Secret Russian Police) made up so many strange
explanations and their agents spread so many fake facts, that it was very easy to understand
that the Russian Buk missile did the deed! such desperation - later https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17 / found
all the evidense and Russian misinformation is 100 % exposed
"... Although I voted for Trump, only because he was a slightly smaller POS than Hillary, it's hard to have any sympathy for him. ..."
"... The Democrats and the Deep State should have accused Israel of interfering in US elections. That would have been a credible complaint. ..."
"... Felix, Except that Israel and her deep state puppets were interfering on behalf of the democrats. ..."
"... What is happening in the U.S. is the same MO the CIA has developed over the past 64 years to create turmoil within a nation to overthrow a ruler that would not comply with the dictates of Wall Street. ..."
"... I am presently reading the book " JFK and the Unspeakable" by James W.Douglass and it is exactly why Kennedy was assassinated by the very same group that desperately wants to see Trump gone and the rapprochement with Russia squashed. ..."
"... Russia-gate - Just another weapon of mass distraction, brought to you by the liars in charge. ..."
"... David Stockman's excellent analysis makes clear that Trump doesn't know what he's doing and has appointed poor advisors, many of whom have been working against him from the start. Yet, per Stockman, "he doesn't need to be the passive object of a witch hunt." He could have and should have exposed the crimes of his accusers from the beginning, while he still had 100% support from the anti-war Right, which put him in office in the first place. He should have ignored the hysteria emanating from his enemies, and made peace with Vladimir Putin as a first order of business. Millions would have supported him. ..."
"... But, after his provocations in Syria and against Russia, which really resulted because he gave control of military decisions to uber hawk and Russia-phobic Mad Dog Mattis, his support from the anti-war crowd has all but evaporated and is unlikely to return. In other words, although he has been treated extremely unfairly by the corporate media, ultimately he has no one to blame but himself. Trump, with his endless stupid tweeting, has become a sad caricature of himself. ..."
"... When an outsider (like Trump) is elected POTUS and promises to do harm to the Pentagon, against the will of the Deep State -- the battle is on. A coup was planned against him, even before he took the oath of office. And, BTW--against the will of the people ..."
"... The Deep State bureaucracy will never let him have full control. Apparently, Obomber and Killery are running a Shadow White House, with all major decisions coming from the Deep State actors thereof. ..."
"... Killery still has her security clearance, by which she knew where the US Military would strike in Syria before Trump had any idea what was going on ..."
"... The Pentagon has seized power and does not recognize any elected or appointed power of the US government. Trump's 'power' is non-existent. If this 'soft coup' becomes a hard one, I predict all hell breaking loose in America ..."
"... "In a word, the Little Putsch in Kiev is now begetting a Great Big Coup in the Imperial City." Interesting point of view from David Stockman. Whatever happens in Washington, one can be sure there will come another provocation against Russia. ..."
"... This will probably be the Joint Investigation Team's final word on the shootdown of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014, not long after the little putsch in Kiev. The Joint Investigation Team relies on the Dutch Safety Board's Final Report on Flight MH17. With this report, the Dutch Safety Board has given the world a classic snow job, which I have pointed out in my critique on it. Please read it on my website at www.show-the-house.com/id119.html and share it with your elected representatives. Maybe a collective effort can head this off . ..."
"... Not the first time! "US Power Elite, at war among themselves?" https://wipokuli.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/us-powe... ..."
"... Watching from Australia what passes for domestic politics in the US within the media, reminds me of a primitive tribe reacting to a solar eclipse. They run around in hysterical fear gnashing their teeth thinking the great evil spirit has come to steal their corn, carry off their daughters, and destroy their village. ..."
Although I voted for Trump, only because he was a slightly smaller POS than Hillary, it's hard to have any sympathy for him.
Every time he walks out on a stage clapping his hands, encouraging applause, like a daytime TV game show host, I want to puke.
I honestly don't think Trump really expected to win the presidency. And when he did, he was clueless. His "Mission Accomplished"
party at the White House for a bill which would never pass the senate, was pure Dubya Bush. The orange haired POS is an embarrassment
to the country.
What is happening in the U.S. is the same MO the CIA has developed over the past 64 years to create turmoil within a nation
to overthrow a ruler that would not comply with the dictates of Wall Street.
The "ultimate goal" (according to internal memos), is to collect on the fraudulent $20 trillion national debt which will result
in Wall Street owning the United States. Hello, Greece.
I am presently reading the book " JFK and the Unspeakable" by James W.Douglass and it is exactly why Kennedy was assassinated
by the very same group that desperately wants to see Trump gone and the rapprochement with Russia squashed.
Peace is not
in their books,war is. John Kennedy had an epiphany and was wanting to make peace with the USSR at the time, after the Cuban crisis,
and this could not be allowed to happen .
David Stockman's excellent analysis makes clear that Trump doesn't know what he's doing and has appointed poor advisors,
many of whom have been working against him from the start. Yet, per Stockman, "he doesn't need to be the passive object of a witch
hunt." He could have and should have exposed the crimes of his accusers from the beginning, while he still had 100% support from
the anti-war Right, which put him in office in the first place. He should have ignored the hysteria emanating from his enemies,
and made peace with Vladimir Putin as a first order of business. Millions would have supported him.
But, after his provocations in Syria and against Russia, which really resulted because he gave control of military decisions
to uber hawk and Russia-phobic Mad Dog Mattis, his support from the anti-war crowd has all but evaporated and is unlikely to return.
In other words, although he has been treated extremely unfairly by the corporate media, ultimately he has no one to blame but
himself. Trump, with his endless stupid tweeting, has become a sad caricature of himself.
Stockman has only been a Congressman. They are allowed more leeway.
When an outsider (like Trump) is elected POTUS and promises
to do harm to the Pentagon, against the will of the Deep State -- the battle is on. A coup was planned against him, even before
he took the oath of office. And, BTW--against the will of the people, themselves.
The Deep State bureaucracy will never let him have full control. Apparently, Obomber and Killery are running a Shadow White
House, with all major decisions coming from the Deep State actors thereof.
You can't write an article about a 'soft coup' and NOT mention her name in connection with it!
The Pentagon has seized power and does not recognize any elected or appointed power of the US government. Trump's 'power'
is non-existent. If this 'soft coup' becomes a hard one, I predict all hell breaking loose in America.
"In a word, the Little Putsch in Kiev is now begetting a Great Big Coup in the Imperial City." Interesting point of view
from David Stockman. Whatever happens in Washington, one can be sure there will come another provocation against Russia.
This will probably be the Joint Investigation Team's final word on the shootdown of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern
Ukraine on 17 July 2014, not long after the little putsch in Kiev. The Joint Investigation Team relies on the Dutch Safety Board's
Final Report on Flight MH17. With this report, the Dutch Safety Board has given the world a classic snow job, which I have pointed
out in my critique on it. Please read it on my website at www.show-the-house.com/id119.html
and share it with your elected representatives. Maybe a collective effort can head this off .
Watching from Australia what passes for domestic politics in the US within the media, reminds me of a primitive tribe reacting
to a solar eclipse. They run around in hysterical fear gnashing their teeth thinking the great evil spirit has come to steal their
corn, carry off their daughters, and destroy their village.
Emotional ignorance and blindness to the rational reality will only lead to more tears.
"... "In a word, the Little Putsch in Kiev is now begetting a Great Big Coup in the Imperial City." Interesting point of view from David Stockman. Whatever happens in Washington, one can be sure there will come another provocation against Russia. ..."
"... Please read it on my website at www.show-the-house.com/id119.html and share it with your elected representatives. Maybe a collective effort can head this off . ..."
"In a word, the Little Putsch in Kiev is now begetting a Great Big Coup in the Imperial City."
Interesting point of view from David Stockman. Whatever happens in Washington, one can be sure
there will come another provocation against Russia.
This will probably be the Joint Investigation
Team's final word on the shootdown of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine on 17
July 2014, not long after the little putsch in Kiev.
The Joint Investigation Team relies on the
Dutch Safety Board's Final Report on Flight MH17. With this report, the Dutch Safety Board has
given the world a classic snow job, which I have pointed out in my critique on it.
Please read
it on my website at www.show-the-house.com/id119.html
and share it with your elected representatives. Maybe a collective effort can head this off
.
"... In addition to funding Bellingcat and joint ventures with the CIA, Brin's Google is heavily invested in Crowdstrike, an American cybersecurity technology firm based in Irvine, California. ..."
"... Crowdstrike is the main "source" of the "Russians hacked the DNC" story. ..."
"... Allegations of Russian perfidy are routinely issued by private companies with lucrative US Department of Defense (DoD) contracts. The companies claiming to protect the nation against "threats" have the ability to manufacture "threats". ..."
"... US offensive cyber operations have emphasized political coercion and opinion shaping, shifting public perception in NATO countries as well as globally in ways favorable to the US, and to create a sense of unease and distrust among perceived adversaries such as Russia and China. ..."
"... The Snowden revelations made it clear that US offensive cyber capabilities can and have been directed both domestically and internationally. The notion that US and NATO cyber operations are purely defensive is a myth. ..."
"... The perception that a foreign attacker may have infiltrated US networks, is monitoring communications, and perhaps considering even more damaging actions, can have a disorienting effect. ..."
"... In the world of US "hybrid warfare" against Russia, offensive cyber operations work in tandem with NATO propaganda efforts, perhaps best exemplified by the "online investigation" antics of the Atlantic Council's Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcat disinformation site. ..."
Yellow journalism now employs "open source and social media investigation" scams foisted by
Eliot Higgins and the Bellingcat disinformation site.
Bellingcat is allied with the New York Times and the Washington Post, the two principal mainstream
media organs for "regime change" propaganda, via the First Draft Coalition "partner network".
In a triumph of Orwellian Newspeak, this Google-sponsored "post-Truth" Propaganda 3.0 coalition
declares that member organizations will "work together to tackle common issues, including ways
to streamline the verification process".
The New York Times routinely hacks up Bellingcat "reports" and pretends they're "verification"
Malachy Browne, "Senior Story Producer" at the New York Times, cited Bellingcat to embellish
the media "story" about the Khan Shaykhun chemical incident in Idlib Syria.
Before joining the Times, Browne was an editor at "social news and marketing agency" Storyful
and at Reported. ly, the "social reporting" arm of Pierre Omidyar's First Look Media.
Browne generously "supplemented" his "reporting" on the Khan Shaykun incident with "videos
gathered by the journalist Eliot Higgins and the social media news agency Storyful".
Browne encouraged Times readers to participate in the Bellingcat-style "verification" charade:
"Find a computer, get on Google Earth and match what you see in the video to the streets and buildings"
Browne of Storyful and Higgins of Bellingcat are founding members of the Google-funded "First
Draft" coalition.
Browne demonstrates how the NYT and other "First Draft" coalition media outlets use video to
"strengthen" their "storytelling".
In 2016, the NYT video department hired Browne and Andrew Glazer. a senior producer on the
team that launched VICE News, to help "enhance" the "reporting" at the Times.
Browne represents the Times' effort to package its dubious "reporting" using the Storyful marketing
strategy of "building trust, loyalty, and revenue with insight and emotionally driven content"
wedded with Bellingcat style "digital forensics" scams.
In other words, we should expect the New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, UK Guardian, and
all the other "First Draft" coalition media "partners" to barrage us more Bellingcat / Atlantic
Council-style Facebook and YouTube video mashups, crazy fun with Google Earth, and Twitter campaigns.
Abe , September 16, 2017 at 7:00 pm
There is no reason to assume that the trollish rants of "Voytenko" are from some outraged flag-waving
"patriot" in Kiev. There are plenty of other "useful idiots" ready, willing and able to make mischief.
For example, about a million Jews emigrated to Israel ("made Aliyah") from the post-Soviet
states during the 1990s. Some 266,300 were Ukrainian Jews. A large number of Ukrainian Jews also
emigrated to the United States during this period. For example, out of an estimated 400 thousand
Russian-speaking Jews in Metro New York, the largest number (thirty-six percent) hail from Ukraine.
Needless to say, many among them are not so well disposed toward the nations of Russia or Ukraine,
and quite capable of all manner of mischief.
A particularly "useful idiot" making mischief the days is Sergey Brin of Google. Brin's parents
were graduates of Moscow State University who emigrated from the Soviet Union in 1979 when their
son was five years old.
Google, the company that runs the most visited website in the world, the company that owns
YouTube, is very snugly in bed with the US military-industrial-surveillance complex.
In fact, Google was seed funded by the US National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence
Agency (CIA). The company now enjoys lavish "partnerships" with military contractors like SAIC,
Northrop Grumman and Blackbird.
Google's mission statement from the outset was "to organize the world's information and make
it universally accessible and useful".
In a 2004 letter prior to their initial public offering, Google founders Larry Page and Sergey
Brin explained their "Don't be evil" culture required objectivity and an absence of bias: "We
believe it is important for everyone to have access to the best information and research, not
only to the information people pay for you to see."
The corporate giant appears to have replaced the original motto altogether. A carefully reworded
version appears in the Google Code of Conduct: "You can make money without doing evil".
This new gospel allows Google and its "partners" to make money promoting propaganda and engaging
in surveillance, and somehow manage to not "be evil". That's "post-truth" logic for you.
Indeed, a very cozy cross-promotion is happening between Google and Bellingcat.
In November 2014, Google Ideas and Google For Media, partnered the George Soros-funded Organised
Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) to host an "Investigathon" in New York City. Google
Ideas promoted Higgins' "War and Pieces: Social Media Investigations" song and dance via their
YouTube page.
Higgins constantly insists that Bellingcat "findings" are "reaffirmed" by accessing imagery
in Google Earth.
Google Earth, originally called EarthViewer 3D, was created by Keyhole, Inc, a Central Intelligence
Agency (CIA) funded company acquired by Google in 2004. Google Earth uses satellite images provided
by the company Digital Globe, a supplier of the US Department of Defense (DoD) with deep connections
to both the military and intelligence communities.
The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) is both a combat support agency under the
United States Department of Defense, and an intelligence agency of the United States Intelligence
Community. Robert T. Cardillo, director of the NGA, lavishly praised Digital Globe as "a true
mission partner in every sense of the word". Examination of the Board of Directors of Digital
Globe reveals intimate connections to DoD and CIA
Google has quite the history of malicious behavior. In what became known as the "Wi-Spy" scandal,
it was revealed that Google had been collecting hundreds of gigabytes of payload data, including
personal and sensitive information. First names, email addresses, physical addresses, and a conversation
between two married individuals planning an extra-marital affair were all cited by the FCC. In
a 2012 settlement, the Federal Trade Commission announced that Google will pay $22.5 million for
overriding privacy settings in Apple's Safari browser. Though it was the largest civil penalty
the Federal Trade Commission had ever imposed for violating one of its orders, the penalty as
little more than symbolic for a company that had $2.8 billion in earnings the previous quarter.
Google is a joint venture partner with the CIA In 2009, Google Ventures and In-Q-Tel invested
"under $10 million each" into Recorded Future shortly after the company was founded. The company
developed technology that strips information from web pages, blogs, and Twitter accounts.
In addition to funding Bellingcat and joint ventures with the CIA, Brin's Google is heavily
invested in Crowdstrike, an American cybersecurity technology firm based in Irvine, California.
Crowdstrike is the main "source" of the "Russians hacked the DNC" story.
Dmitri Alperovitch, co-founder and chief technology officer of CrowdStrike, is a Senior Fellow
at the Atlantic Council "regime change" think tank. Alperovitz said that Crowdstrike has "high
confidence" it was "Russian hackers". "But we don't have hard evidence," Alperovitch admitted
in a June 16, 2016 Washington Post interview.
Allegations of Russian perfidy are routinely issued by private companies with lucrative
US Department of Defense (DoD) contracts. The companies claiming to protect the nation against
"threats" have the ability to manufacture "threats".
The US and UK possess elite cyber capabilities for both cyberspace espionage and offensive
operations.
Both the US National Security Agency (NSA) and the British Government Communications Headquarters
(GCHQ) are intelligence agencies with a long history of supporting military operations. US military
cyber operations are the responsibility of US Cyber Command, whose commander is also the head
of the NSA.
US offensive cyber operations have emphasized political coercion and opinion shaping, shifting
public perception in NATO countries as well as globally in ways favorable to the US, and to create
a sense of unease and distrust among perceived adversaries such as Russia and China.
The Snowden revelations made it clear that US offensive cyber capabilities can and have
been directed both domestically and internationally. The notion that US and NATO cyber operations
are purely defensive is a myth.
Recent US domestic cyber operations have been used for coercive effect, creating uncertainty
and concern within the American government and population.
The perception that a foreign attacker may have infiltrated US networks, is monitoring
communications, and perhaps considering even more damaging actions, can have a disorienting effect.
In the world of US "hybrid warfare" against Russia, offensive cyber operations work in
tandem with NATO propaganda efforts, perhaps best exemplified by the "online investigation" antics
of the Atlantic Council's Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcat disinformation site.
Abe , September 16, 2017 at 1:58 pm
Higgins and Bellingcat receives direct funding from the Open Society Foundations (OSF) founded
by business magnate George Soros, and from Google's Digital News Initiatives (DNI).
Google's 2017 DNI Fund Annual Report describes Higgins as "a world–leading expert in news verification".
In their zeal to propagate the story of Higgins as a courageous former "unemployed man" now
busy independently "Codifying social conflict data", Google neglects to mention Higgins' role
as a "research fellow" for the NATO-funded Atlantic Council "regime change" think tank.
Despite their claims of "independent journalism", Eliot Higgins and the team of disinformation
operatives at Bellingcat depend on the Atlantic Council to promote their "online investigations".
The Atlantic Council donors list includes:
– US government and military entities: US State Department, US Air Force, US Army, US Marines.
– The NATO military alliance
– Large corporations and major military contractors: Chevron, Google, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon,
BP, ExxonMobil, General Electric, Northrup Grumman, SAIC, ConocoPhillips, and Dow Chemical
– Foreign governments: United Arab Emirates (UAE; which gives the think tank at least $1 million),
Kingdom of Bahrain, City of London, Ministry of Defense of Finland, Embassy of Latvia, Estonian
Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Defense of Georgia
– Other think tanks and think tankers: Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS),
Nicolas Veron of Bruegel (formerly at PIIE), Anne-Marie Slaughter (head of New America Foundation),
Michele Flournoy (head of Center for a New American Security), Center for Middle East Policy at
Brookings Institution.
Higgins is a Research Associate of the Department of War Studies at King's College, and was
principal co-author of the Atlantic Council "reports" on Ukraine and Syria.
Damon Wilson, Executive Vice President of Programs and Strategy at the Atlantic Council, a
co-author with Higgins of the report, effusively praised Higgins' effort to bolster anti-Russian
propaganda:
Wilson stated, "We make this case using only open source, all unclassified material. And none
of it provided by government sources. And it's thanks to works, the work that's been pioneered
by human rights defenders and our partner Eliot Higgins, uh, we've been able to use social media
forensics and geolocation to back this up." (see Atlantic Council video presentation minutes 35:10-36:30)
However, the Atlantic Council claim that "none" of Higgins' material was provided by government
sources is an obvious lie.
Higgins' primary "pieces of evidence" are a video depicting a Buk missile launcher and a set
of geolocation coordinates that were supplied by the SBU (Security Service of Ukraine) and the
Ukrainian Ministry of Interior via the Facebook page of senior-level Ukrainian government official
Arsen Avakov, the Minister of Internal Affairs.
Higgins and the Atlantic Council are working in support of the Pentagon and Western intelligence's
"hybrid war" against Russia.
The laudatory bio of Higgins on the Kings College website specifically acknowledges his service
to the Atlantic Council:
"an award winning investigative journalist and publishes the work of an international alliance
of fellow investigators using freely available online information. He has helped inaugurate open-source
and social media investigations by trawling through vast amounts of data uploaded constantly on
to the web and social media sites. His inquiries have revealed extraordinary findings, including
linking the Buk used to down flight MH17 to Russia, uncovering details about the August 21st 2013
Sarin attacks in Damascus, and evidencing the involvement of the Russian military in the Ukrainian
conflict. Recently he has worked with the Atlantic Council on the report "Hiding in Plain Sight",
which used open source information to detail Russia's military involvement in the crisis in Ukraine."
While it honors Higgins' enthusiastic "trawling", King's College curiously neglects to mention
that Higgins' "findings" on the Syian sarin attacks were thoroughly debunked.
King's College also curiously neglects to mention the fact that Higgins, now listed as a Senior
Fellow at the Atlantic Council's "Future Europe Initiative", was principal co-author of the April
2016 Atlantic Council "report" on Syria.
The report's other key author was John E. Herbst, United States Ambassador to Ukraine from
September 2003 to May 2006 (the period that became known as the Orange Revolution) and Director
of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center.
Other report authors include Frederic C. Hof, who served as Special Adviser on Syrian political
transition to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in 2012. Hof was previously the Special Coordinator
for Regional Affairs in the US Department of State's Office of the Special Envoy for Middle East
Peace, where he advised Special Envoy George Mitchel. Hof had been a Resident Senior Fellow in
the Atlantic Council's Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East since November 2012, and assumed
the position as Director in May 2016.
There is no daylight between the "online investigations" of Higgins and Bellingcat and the
"regime change" efforts of the NATO-backed Atlantic Council.
Thanks to the Atlantic Council, Soros, and Google, it's a pretty well-funded gig for fake "citizen
investigative journalist" Higgins.
"... In addition to funding Bellingcat and joint ventures with the CIA, Brin's Google is heavily invested in Crowdstrike, an American cybersecurity technology firm based in Irvine, California. ..."
"... Crowdstrike is the main "source" of the "Russians hacked the DNC" story. ..."
"... Allegations of Russian perfidy are routinely issued by private companies with lucrative US Department of Defense (DoD) contracts. The companies claiming to protect the nation against "threats" have the ability to manufacture "threats". ..."
"... US offensive cyber operations have emphasized political coercion and opinion shaping, shifting public perception in NATO countries as well as globally in ways favorable to the US, and to create a sense of unease and distrust among perceived adversaries such as Russia and China. ..."
"... The Snowden revelations made it clear that US offensive cyber capabilities can and have been directed both domestically and internationally. The notion that US and NATO cyber operations are purely defensive is a myth. ..."
"... The perception that a foreign attacker may have infiltrated US networks, is monitoring communications, and perhaps considering even more damaging actions, can have a disorienting effect. ..."
"... In the world of US "hybrid warfare" against Russia, offensive cyber operations work in tandem with NATO propaganda efforts, perhaps best exemplified by the "online investigation" antics of the Atlantic Council's Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcat disinformation site. ..."
Yellow journalism now employs "open source and social media investigation" scams foisted by
Eliot Higgins and the Bellingcat disinformation site.
Bellingcat is allied with the New York Times and the Washington Post, the two principal mainstream
media organs for "regime change" propaganda, via the First Draft Coalition "partner network".
In a triumph of Orwellian Newspeak, this Google-sponsored "post-Truth" Propaganda 3.0 coalition
declares that member organizations will "work together to tackle common issues, including ways
to streamline the verification process".
The New York Times routinely hacks up Bellingcat "reports" and pretends they're "verification"
Malachy Browne, "Senior Story Producer" at the New York Times, cited Bellingcat to embellish
the media "story" about the Khan Shaykhun chemical incident in Idlib Syria.
Before joining the Times, Browne was an editor at "social news and marketing agency" Storyful
and at Reported. ly, the "social reporting" arm of Pierre Omidyar's First Look Media.
Browne generously "supplemented" his "reporting" on the Khan Shaykun incident with "videos
gathered by the journalist Eliot Higgins and the social media news agency Storyful".
Browne encouraged Times readers to participate in the Bellingcat-style "verification" charade:
"Find a computer, get on Google Earth and match what you see in the video to the streets and buildings"
Browne of Storyful and Higgins of Bellingcat are founding members of the Google-funded "First
Draft" coalition.
Browne demonstrates how the NYT and other "First Draft" coalition media outlets use video to
"strengthen" their "storytelling".
In 2016, the NYT video department hired Browne and Andrew Glazer. a senior producer on the
team that launched VICE News, to help "enhance" the "reporting" at the Times.
Browne represents the Times' effort to package its dubious "reporting" using the Storyful marketing
strategy of "building trust, loyalty, and revenue with insight and emotionally driven content"
wedded with Bellingcat style "digital forensics" scams.
In other words, we should expect the New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, UK Guardian, and
all the other "First Draft" coalition media "partners" to barrage us more Bellingcat / Atlantic
Council-style Facebook and YouTube video mashups, crazy fun with Google Earth, and Twitter campaigns.
Abe , September 16, 2017 at 7:00 pm
There is no reason to assume that the trollish rants of "Voytenko" are from some outraged flag-waving
"patriot" in Kiev. There are plenty of other "useful idiots" ready, willing and able to make mischief.
For example, about a million Jews emigrated to Israel ("made Aliyah") from the post-Soviet
states during the 1990s. Some 266,300 were Ukrainian Jews. A large number of Ukrainian Jews also
emigrated to the United States during this period. For example, out of an estimated 400 thousand
Russian-speaking Jews in Metro New York, the largest number (thirty-six percent) hail from Ukraine.
Needless to say, many among them are not so well disposed toward the nations of Russia or Ukraine,
and quite capable of all manner of mischief.
A particularly "useful idiot" making mischief the days is Sergey Brin of Google. Brin's parents
were graduates of Moscow State University who emigrated from the Soviet Union in 1979 when their
son was five years old.
Google, the company that runs the most visited website in the world, the company that owns
YouTube, is very snugly in bed with the US military-industrial-surveillance complex.
In fact, Google was seed funded by the US National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence
Agency (CIA). The company now enjoys lavish "partnerships" with military contractors like SAIC,
Northrop Grumman and Blackbird.
Google's mission statement from the outset was "to organize the world's information and make
it universally accessible and useful".
In a 2004 letter prior to their initial public offering, Google founders Larry Page and Sergey
Brin explained their "Don't be evil" culture required objectivity and an absence of bias: "We
believe it is important for everyone to have access to the best information and research, not
only to the information people pay for you to see."
The corporate giant appears to have replaced the original motto altogether. A carefully reworded
version appears in the Google Code of Conduct: "You can make money without doing evil".
This new gospel allows Google and its "partners" to make money promoting propaganda and engaging
in surveillance, and somehow manage to not "be evil". That's "post-truth" logic for you.
Indeed, a very cozy cross-promotion is happening between Google and Bellingcat.
In November 2014, Google Ideas and Google For Media, partnered the George Soros-funded Organised
Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) to host an "Investigathon" in New York City. Google
Ideas promoted Higgins' "War and Pieces: Social Media Investigations" song and dance via their
YouTube page.
Higgins constantly insists that Bellingcat "findings" are "reaffirmed" by accessing imagery
in Google Earth.
Google Earth, originally called EarthViewer 3D, was created by Keyhole, Inc, a Central Intelligence
Agency (CIA) funded company acquired by Google in 2004. Google Earth uses satellite images provided
by the company Digital Globe, a supplier of the US Department of Defense (DoD) with deep connections
to both the military and intelligence communities.
The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) is both a combat support agency under the
United States Department of Defense, and an intelligence agency of the United States Intelligence
Community. Robert T. Cardillo, director of the NGA, lavishly praised Digital Globe as "a true
mission partner in every sense of the word". Examination of the Board of Directors of Digital
Globe reveals intimate connections to DoD and CIA
Google has quite the history of malicious behavior. In what became known as the "Wi-Spy" scandal,
it was revealed that Google had been collecting hundreds of gigabytes of payload data, including
personal and sensitive information. First names, email addresses, physical addresses, and a conversation
between two married individuals planning an extra-marital affair were all cited by the FCC. In
a 2012 settlement, the Federal Trade Commission announced that Google will pay $22.5 million for
overriding privacy settings in Apple's Safari browser. Though it was the largest civil penalty
the Federal Trade Commission had ever imposed for violating one of its orders, the penalty as
little more than symbolic for a company that had $2.8 billion in earnings the previous quarter.
Google is a joint venture partner with the CIA In 2009, Google Ventures and In-Q-Tel invested
"under $10 million each" into Recorded Future shortly after the company was founded. The company
developed technology that strips information from web pages, blogs, and Twitter accounts.
In addition to funding Bellingcat and joint ventures with the CIA, Brin's Google is heavily
invested in Crowdstrike, an American cybersecurity technology firm based in Irvine, California.
Crowdstrike is the main "source" of the "Russians hacked the DNC" story.
Dmitri Alperovitch, co-founder and chief technology officer of CrowdStrike, is a Senior Fellow
at the Atlantic Council "regime change" think tank. Alperovitz said that Crowdstrike has "high
confidence" it was "Russian hackers". "But we don't have hard evidence," Alperovitch admitted
in a June 16, 2016 Washington Post interview.
Allegations of Russian perfidy are routinely issued by private companies with lucrative
US Department of Defense (DoD) contracts. The companies claiming to protect the nation against
"threats" have the ability to manufacture "threats".
The US and UK possess elite cyber capabilities for both cyberspace espionage and offensive
operations.
Both the US National Security Agency (NSA) and the British Government Communications Headquarters
(GCHQ) are intelligence agencies with a long history of supporting military operations. US military
cyber operations are the responsibility of US Cyber Command, whose commander is also the head
of the NSA.
US offensive cyber operations have emphasized political coercion and opinion shaping, shifting
public perception in NATO countries as well as globally in ways favorable to the US, and to create
a sense of unease and distrust among perceived adversaries such as Russia and China.
The Snowden revelations made it clear that US offensive cyber capabilities can and have
been directed both domestically and internationally. The notion that US and NATO cyber operations
are purely defensive is a myth.
Recent US domestic cyber operations have been used for coercive effect, creating uncertainty
and concern within the American government and population.
The perception that a foreign attacker may have infiltrated US networks, is monitoring
communications, and perhaps considering even more damaging actions, can have a disorienting effect.
In the world of US "hybrid warfare" against Russia, offensive cyber operations work in
tandem with NATO propaganda efforts, perhaps best exemplified by the "online investigation" antics
of the Atlantic Council's Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcat disinformation site.
Abe , September 16, 2017 at 1:58 pm
Higgins and Bellingcat receives direct funding from the Open Society Foundations (OSF) founded
by business magnate George Soros, and from Google's Digital News Initiatives (DNI).
Google's 2017 DNI Fund Annual Report describes Higgins as "a world–leading expert in news verification".
In their zeal to propagate the story of Higgins as a courageous former "unemployed man" now
busy independently "Codifying social conflict data", Google neglects to mention Higgins' role
as a "research fellow" for the NATO-funded Atlantic Council "regime change" think tank.
Despite their claims of "independent journalism", Eliot Higgins and the team of disinformation
operatives at Bellingcat depend on the Atlantic Council to promote their "online investigations".
The Atlantic Council donors list includes:
– US government and military entities: US State Department, US Air Force, US Army, US Marines.
– The NATO military alliance
– Large corporations and major military contractors: Chevron, Google, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon,
BP, ExxonMobil, General Electric, Northrup Grumman, SAIC, ConocoPhillips, and Dow Chemical
– Foreign governments: United Arab Emirates (UAE; which gives the think tank at least $1 million),
Kingdom of Bahrain, City of London, Ministry of Defense of Finland, Embassy of Latvia, Estonian
Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Defense of Georgia
– Other think tanks and think tankers: Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS),
Nicolas Veron of Bruegel (formerly at PIIE), Anne-Marie Slaughter (head of New America Foundation),
Michele Flournoy (head of Center for a New American Security), Center for Middle East Policy at
Brookings Institution.
Higgins is a Research Associate of the Department of War Studies at King's College, and was
principal co-author of the Atlantic Council "reports" on Ukraine and Syria.
Damon Wilson, Executive Vice President of Programs and Strategy at the Atlantic Council, a
co-author with Higgins of the report, effusively praised Higgins' effort to bolster anti-Russian
propaganda:
Wilson stated, "We make this case using only open source, all unclassified material. And none
of it provided by government sources. And it's thanks to works, the work that's been pioneered
by human rights defenders and our partner Eliot Higgins, uh, we've been able to use social media
forensics and geolocation to back this up." (see Atlantic Council video presentation minutes 35:10-36:30)
However, the Atlantic Council claim that "none" of Higgins' material was provided by government
sources is an obvious lie.
Higgins' primary "pieces of evidence" are a video depicting a Buk missile launcher and a set
of geolocation coordinates that were supplied by the SBU (Security Service of Ukraine) and the
Ukrainian Ministry of Interior via the Facebook page of senior-level Ukrainian government official
Arsen Avakov, the Minister of Internal Affairs.
Higgins and the Atlantic Council are working in support of the Pentagon and Western intelligence's
"hybrid war" against Russia.
The laudatory bio of Higgins on the Kings College website specifically acknowledges his service
to the Atlantic Council:
"an award winning investigative journalist and publishes the work of an international alliance
of fellow investigators using freely available online information. He has helped inaugurate open-source
and social media investigations by trawling through vast amounts of data uploaded constantly on
to the web and social media sites. His inquiries have revealed extraordinary findings, including
linking the Buk used to down flight MH17 to Russia, uncovering details about the August 21st 2013
Sarin attacks in Damascus, and evidencing the involvement of the Russian military in the Ukrainian
conflict. Recently he has worked with the Atlantic Council on the report "Hiding in Plain Sight",
which used open source information to detail Russia's military involvement in the crisis in Ukraine."
While it honors Higgins' enthusiastic "trawling", King's College curiously neglects to mention
that Higgins' "findings" on the Syian sarin attacks were thoroughly debunked.
King's College also curiously neglects to mention the fact that Higgins, now listed as a Senior
Fellow at the Atlantic Council's "Future Europe Initiative", was principal co-author of the April
2016 Atlantic Council "report" on Syria.
The report's other key author was John E. Herbst, United States Ambassador to Ukraine from
September 2003 to May 2006 (the period that became known as the Orange Revolution) and Director
of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center.
Other report authors include Frederic C. Hof, who served as Special Adviser on Syrian political
transition to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in 2012. Hof was previously the Special Coordinator
for Regional Affairs in the US Department of State's Office of the Special Envoy for Middle East
Peace, where he advised Special Envoy George Mitchel. Hof had been a Resident Senior Fellow in
the Atlantic Council's Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East since November 2012, and assumed
the position as Director in May 2016.
There is no daylight between the "online investigations" of Higgins and Bellingcat and the
"regime change" efforts of the NATO-backed Atlantic Council.
Thanks to the Atlantic Council, Soros, and Google, it's a pretty well-funded gig for fake "citizen
investigative journalist" Higgins.
Now this start resembling JFS assassination story... This exchange is
mainly rehash of old disinformation (Matt, Drutten) and mostly known
counterarguments (marknesop). But there some new things
about Putin interview and dismissal of some high ranking Russian commanders in
2015 (one year after the events, so it might not be connected).
Notable quotes:
"... Regarding "Carlos", I tracked him down a few years ago and if I recall correctly, it was a bizarre story involving a Spaniard living in Romania ..."
"... This, once evident to Moscow, led to a lot of drama within the Russian military echelons and ultimately led to the sudden dismissal of Colonel General Sidorov of the Western Military District in late 2015 (on direct orders by Vladimir Putin), together with a heap of other dismissals of high-ranking military officials in the regions bordering Ukraine. ..."
"... The radar unit cannot be left out if the Buk missiles are to actually hit their targets with any reliability. What would be the point of supplying the rebels such an ineffective system. (No the radar on the Buk launcher is not enough for precision tracking). ..."
"... As with any crime scene, physical evidence is vital. The Buk missile will not produce holes identical to 30 mm guns deployed on many fighter jets, including the ones in the vicinity of MH17: ..."
"... There's plenty of proof of Russian supplies to the Donbass. Don't be silly. It is also perfectly possible to determine when exactly these started occurring, namely in June 2014. Prior to that, the rebels had been relying on captured stock. ..."
"... What do fighter-bombers carry 30mm cannons for if the idea of their being able to shoot down a plane is 'laughable'? What's going to happen to an airliner if you shoot up the cockpit and kill the flight crew? Or would 30mm rounds just bounce off plexiglas? I'm not a proponent of the SU-25 theory, although it is not as impossible as some try to make you think. But let's not stray off too far into fantasy. ..."
"... (1) Ukraine claimed that its military destroyed all the air defense systems it had to leave behind as it retreated. So the rebels did not get a Buk system from the Ukrainian Army, unless it is lying. ..."
"... (2) The Bellingcat tale of a smuggled single SA-11 TEL unit into Ukraine, which precisely and efficiently shot down MH-17 without any supporting equipment and then raced back across the border to Russia via a circuitous route which includes at least one geographical feature the system could not have easily passed, is suspect at best and full of possibilities for tampering; and, ..."
"... (3) Russia had no motive for doing such a thing and every reason not to. ..."
"... But the most convincing thing is the western campaign of covering up for Ukraine. Ukraine has to be a suspect – has to – considering the incident occurred over Ukrainian territory, out of reach for Russia from its own territory, and Ukraine possesses the same weapons system. Yet the western reaction is to put Ukraine in charge of the disciplinary investigation, and give it cover. The west makes all sorts of conclusions based on no evidence, and will not produce evidence it says it has. ..."
"... ME, don't let this liar and his lying sources establish any false truths to frame the debate. Why would Almaz-Antey conduct missile detonation tests on the cabin section of a decommissioned IL-86 if there was any sort of doubt in Russia about the most affected area. In particular, why would Putin be less informed about the MH-17 than the average, credulous western sap who is told that Putin loves to shoot down civilian airliners for fun. ..."
"... "Why would Almaz-Antey conduct missile detonation tests on the cabin section." ..."
"... A Buk is the whole system, not the missile, although that is a minor point. The missile is the SA-11, and it goes where the system on the ground guides it, attacking the center of mass. It likely hit the cockpit – if it was an SA-11 – because it was leading the target slightly – algorithms in the guidance radar would be sending the missile to a point the aircraft would reach at a future moment in time if it remained on the same course and speed. ..."
"... I don't know why Putin would say the tail was hit, but he's not a retard and he knows the difference between active homing and IR guidance, and the engines of a 777 are on the wing roots , not in the tail. Nobody with any brains launches a heat-seeking missile in a head-to-head presentation; there's no heat trace in front of a plane. ..."
Something very interesting has happened: Putin's thoughts about MH17
have been revealed, from the full-length interview text from the Stone interviews.
A few things were omitted from the documentary and they are . quite extraordinary.
Apparently, Putin believes in the "Carlos the ATC" story. Not only that,
but he claims MH17 was hit at the "tail" end, which is absolutely false.
The cockpit was hit.
Now, I don't know when exactly he said his. Maybe he believed his media's
own propaganda and maybe he said this very early on (interviews were filmed
over a few years), before the JIT released its initial report. Still, pretty
interesting:
!!!!!!!!-
"As far as I know, right after this horrible catastrophe, one of the
Ukrainian flight dispatchers, I think he is of Spanish origins, said he
had seen a fighter in the commercial plane's flight path," Putin reportedly
told Stone.
"There could only have been a Ukrainian fighter jet there. That, of course,
demands clarification," Putin is cited as saying by Dozhd.
In his comments to Stone, Putin also repeated previous claims that the
Boeing was hit in its tail.
Also, since we're on the subject: Mark, I just noticed your reply to
a post of mine that was caught in the spam filter for a few days/weeks.
The post was made sometime, I think, in June or July. You gave me some links
to comments by another post here, from a few years ago, who discussed Carlos.
I am sorry for the late response, but I was unable to get a notification
for that comment, since I don't check this email. Anyway, I have read that
commentator's posts and it seems obvious that Carlos was pretty clued-in
to what the rebels were doing. My theory is, since he was an anti-maidan
protester, he perhaps had links to the rebels and was privy to their information.
You remember the transcript/video from the Australian news site I provided?
It showed the rebels were initially confused and thought they'd shot down
an SU-25 which shot down MH17. Maybe Carlos was able to get immediate access
to his information, distorted due to the confusion, and repeat it on Twitter,
perhaps instructed to pretend he was an ATC. At least, that's my theory.
The interview in question was made on the 4th of July, 2015, and indeed
at that stage it seems like Russian intelligence knew next to nothing about
what actually occurred, or if they did they didn't inform the President.
Instead, it's all the internet rumors, and nothing beyond those.
Regarding "Carlos", I tracked him down a few years ago and if I recall
correctly, it was a bizarre story involving a Spaniard living in Romania.
Ah, Drutten, I believe it is your old posts that Mark pointed me to, a few
months ago. Were you able to timestamp Carlos' initial MH17 post and compare
it with MH17's shootdown? If it can be proven that he instantly knew of
the shoot down, then that lends credence to the theory he was in on the
rebels' communications and/or was part of Russian intelligence. He was,
earlier, an anti-Maidan protester. And he clearly lied.
Have you viewed/read the video/transcript of the rebels speaking right
after MH17's crash? It was released by an Australian news site on the 1st
anniversary of MH17's crash.
It seems you can access the page, but only if you access it from google,
instead of going directly to it. Try this link and click on the first search
result, from couriermail. com.au:
The above is a leaked video/transcript of the immediate aftermath. Notice
how the rebels keep saying there was a "Sukhoi" that crashed. They claim
they shot the Sukhoi down and that the 2 pilots who parachuted out had to
be found.
First issue: no Sukhoi's wreckage has ever been found there, or any pilots.
This means the rebels shot at something they thought was a Sukhoi, and something
came down. But since it wasn't the Sukhoi, it could only be one thing: MH17.
Also, if they tried shooting down the Sukhoi, they definitely had a long-range
AA weapon. A MANPAD can't reach a Sukhoi. So what could they have used?
A BUK TELAR system.
There we have it then. Now we know where the SU-25 story from the Russian
government comes from: it was from the mistaken belief of the rebels that
they were shooting down a Sukhoi with a BUK, but actually shot down a Boeing.
What I find extremely interesting are their claims that an SU-25 actually
crashed and two pilots jumped out via parachutes. This obviously never happened,
but where did they get this misinformation from anyway? Also, towards the
end they claim "Five parachutes jumped off this plane. Five people jumped
off this plane on the bird site." Are they talking about the passengers
of MH17 now? Because 5 people can't fit in an SU-25 and they only mentioned
two people with regard to that.
By the way, my very own theory is that as the rebels started running out
of captured equipment and other "local" things and Russia started to provide
the rebels with weapons and vehicles sometime in June of 2014 (going by
OSINT), certain folks in the Western Military District of Russia went a
tad further and instead of just sticking to the general supplies of Soviet-era
warehouse materials (that while quite obviously from Russia still seemed
innocent enough on the whole and perhaps could pass as "plausible deniability"
if done right), they decided to let go of some way more potent things as
well.
This, once evident to Moscow, led to a lot of drama within the Russian
military echelons and ultimately led to the sudden dismissal of Colonel
General Sidorov of the Western Military District in late 2015 (on direct
orders by Vladimir Putin), together with a heap of other dismissals of high-ranking
military officials in the regions bordering Ukraine.
This damage control and the subsequent ditto has been quite chaotic overall.
Also, in the immediate aftermath of the MH17 disaster, Russia intervened
directly, in a series of pinpoint bona-fide Russian military operations
followed by very swift withdrawals starting August 2014 and ending in February
2015. Probably just as much of a "clean-up" of the mess they realized that
Sidorov et al caused, as it was about saving the rebels from the Ukrainian
onslaught at that time.
The Stone interview took place right in the midst of this drama, and
Putin says the following:
There are two principal versions. The first version is that this plane
was shot down by a Buk air defense system of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
The second version has it that the same system, the Buk system (produced
by Russia) was employed by the separatists. First and foremost, let me say
that in any case, it was a true catastrophe.
This in the same paragraph as the later musings that TV Dozhd relays.
So it all adds up, in my opinion.
Your attempt to give NATzO half a point in this propaganda smear does not
cut it. All that was ever produced as "proof" of Russian equipment in the
Donbas was the single Buk launcher without any of the critical support vehicles
(it is also not clear from any of the photos and videos that it is even
the same launcher). Are you going to say that Russia supplied the rebels
with just this one component which would have greatly reduced the value
of the Buk complex? The radar unit cannot be left out if the Buk missiles
are to actually hit their targets with any reliability. What would be the
point of supplying the rebels such an ineffective system. (No the radar
on the Buk launcher is not enough for precision tracking).
If the rebels ever had any Buk component in their possession it was the
launcher they obtained from one of the Ukrainian air force bases they took
over. This base only had the launcher component without any of the other
pieces needed to make it properly functional. The only evidence produced
so far is at best consistent with this. All of the attempts to make it like
the Buk launcher was "returned" to Russia are BS. It never came from Russia
in the first place.
As with any crime scene, physical evidence is vital. The Buk missile
will not produce holes identical to 30 mm guns deployed on many fighter
jets, including the ones in the vicinity of MH17:
There's plenty of proof of Russian supplies to the Donbass. Don't be silly.
It is also perfectly possible to determine when exactly these started occurring,
namely in June 2014. Prior to that, the rebels had been relying on captured
stock.
They still received heaps of arms from Ukraine after that too, by
the way (by capturing, or even buying it straight from the Ukrainian Armed
Forces), but a huge amount of equipment that could only have come from Russia
showed up during the aforementioned period.
There is also plenty of proof of the Russian direct interventions in
August 2014 and January-February 2015. And these guys disappeared as soon
as their narrow tasks were completed, so they weren't left there or anything.
Some equipment lingered on though.
You slightly contradict yourself. You first claim the rebels stole a BUK,
but then claim that the holes are from 30 mm machine gun fire, a laughably
absurd claim. Machine gun fire is not enough to cause such enormous explosions
mid-air, especially considering the holes are in front of the cockpit. Further,
no rounds from the machine gun have been found.
The reality is that the holes are from the BUK's pellets, released when
the missile flies in front of the cockpit, as it's designed to do. You can
watch the JIT's animation or even Almaz-Antey's live tests for evidence
of these holes and the release of the pellets.
And the shape of the holes can be easily deformed due to heat. It's not
like in cartoons or anything.
What do fighter-bombers carry 30mm cannons for if the idea of their
being able to shoot down a plane is 'laughable'? What's going to happen
to an airliner if you shoot up the cockpit and kill the flight crew? Or
would 30mm rounds just bounce off plexiglas? I'm not a proponent of the
SU-25 theory, although it is not as impossible as some try to make you think.
But let's not stray off too far into fantasy.
(1) Ukraine claimed that its military destroyed all the air defense systems
it had to leave behind as it retreated. So the rebels did not get a Buk
system from the Ukrainian Army, unless it is lying.
(2) The Bellingcat tale of a smuggled single SA-11 TEL unit into Ukraine,
which precisely and efficiently shot down MH-17 without any supporting equipment
and then raced back across the border to Russia via a circuitous route which
includes at least one geographical feature the system could not have easily
passed, is suspect at best and full of possibilities for tampering; and,
(3) Russia had no motive for doing such a thing and every reason not
to.
But the most convincing thing is the western campaign of covering
up for Ukraine. Ukraine has to be a suspect – has to – considering the incident
occurred over Ukrainian territory, out of reach for Russia from its own
territory, and Ukraine possesses the same weapons system. Yet the western
reaction is to put Ukraine in charge of the disciplinary investigation,
and give it cover. The west makes all sorts of conclusions based on no evidence,
and will not produce evidence it says it has.
Those are all facts, and they add up to a very perplexing picture.
Apparently, Putin believes in the "Carlos the ATC" story. Not only that,
but he claims MH17 was hit at the "tail" end, which is absolutely false.
Does Putin's belief in something that is apparently false therefore make
him mendacious, not to be trusted, false per se -- or does this false
belief of his simply make him fallible, as are we all?
Mark Lane was paid by the KGB? I did waste some time researching that claim.
The most negative comments about his work that I located was from the Washington
Post commenting on his death.
Mark Lane was an American leftist who in 1966 produced the bestseller Rush
to Judgment, alleging Kennedy was assassinated by a right-wing American
group. Documents in the Mitrokhin Archive show that the KGB indirectly sent
Mark Lane money ($2,000 and more), and that KGB operative Genrikh Borovik
was in regular contact with him. He also published A Citizen's Dissent (1968).
Lane had intensively traveled abroad to preach that America is an "FBI police
state" that killed its own president.
The below book is one of 5 or so written jointly by the original leaker
of the Mitrokhin archives and Christopher Andrew, the only historian allowed
to see the archives. Thus, the above book is basically a primary source.
Unfortunately, some of the pages about this are omitted, but start from
that page and read the next six or so pages:
Interestingly, Mark Lane represented a certain Victor Marchetti in a
defamation lawsuit, a former special assistant to the Deputy Director of
the Central Intelligence Agency, who has written some critical things about
the CIA In 1978 he published an article about the JFK assassination in
the far-right newspaper of the Liberty Lobby, The Spotlight. Marchetti claimed
that the House Select Committee on Assassinations revealed a CIA memo from
1966 that named E. Howard Hunt in the JFK assassination.
One issue: this
memo is a confirmed KGB forgery. In 1975, a note addressed to "Mr. Hunt,"
dated Nov. 8, 1963, and signed by Oswald, turned up in the U.S. In 1975,
the name of the CIA's E. Howard Hunt was well known from the Watergate affair,
which is why the KGB chose his name and mailed three photocopies of the
note from Mexico to conspiracy buffs in the United States. The Mitrokhin
Archive shows that the "Dear Mr. Hunt" letter had been forged by the KGB
to implicate the CIA in Kennedy's assassination. The forged note was twice
checked for "authenticity" by the KGB's Technical Operations Directorate,
or OTU, and approved for use. KGB rules allowed only photocopies of counterfeited
documents to be used, to avoid close examination of the original. So Howard
Hunt sued Marchetti for defamation (since he was innocent) and Mark Lane
was Marchetti's lawyer.
Interesting guy, this Lane character.
Note that I'm not saying he knew he was being paid, but why would the
KGB send funds to this guy, starting in the 1960s, if he wasn't spreading
information convenient to them? This guy wrote no less than a half dozen
books on JFK-assassination-related issues. The Mitrokhin archives are without
dispute. I mean, they ousted some of the Soviet Union's most valuables spies,
from decades ago. If the archives show the KGB paid Mark Lane, then I believe
them.
You misunderstood the context of my comment. I said "I am not the PM of
Canada", because I found ME's question to not properly address the argument.
I was making the argument that this is interesting precisely because Putin,
as leader of Russia, believed his own country's media lies. When ME asked
me that question, it was a random, pointless one, because I am not the leader
of a nation, hence the point he was making was irrelevant to refuting what
I said.
Regardless, I wasn't being "silly and obtuse". That's a false accusation.
And when it comes to "truthfully answering" ME's question, I don't read
much news from Canadian sources. And when it comes to Venezuela, I sure
as HECK don't believe the government's news!
I haven't seen any convincing evidence yet of 'his government's lies'. I
know you say the Russian government is telling lies. I say they're not.
And even if they were – so what? The exceptional nation has been caught
in lie after lie after lie, red-handed and frequently by its own admission.
Yet it believes it is an example for the world. That's true, but it believes
it is a good one.
ME, don't let this liar and his lying sources establish any false truths
to frame the debate. Why would Almaz-Antey conduct missile detonation tests
on the cabin section of a decommissioned IL-86 if there was any sort of
doubt in Russia about the most affected area. In particular, why would Putin
be less informed about the MH-17 than the average, credulous western sap
who is told that Putin loves to shoot down civilian airliners for fun.
Indeed, that illustrates exactly my point too – Almaz-Antey's own tests
were conducted in October 2015, and focused on the cockpit area and the
shrapnel spread there. Already in June of 2015, Almaz-Antey published a
report, before the live tests of the Buk missile, and even at that stage
(prior to their own widely covered live tests, prior to the DSB and JIT
reports, and crucially – prior to this particular Oliver Stone interview
session in question) they illustrated AA missile shrapnel focusing on the
cockpit area.
Thus, going by what he relays to Stone, Putin was not in the know at
that stage of the details, in July. Most likely, he'd been busy with other
things over all this time, and the rest of the Russian military-intelligence
establishment was busy trying to figure out what actually happened on June
17th the previous year so they hadn't presented him with a rundown just
yet.
I'd say Putin became privvy to all of it later that fall (2015), and
then came the mass firings.
"Why would Almaz-Antey conduct missile detonation tests on the cabin
section."
It's simple. A BUK targets the cockpit of a plane. It then explodes,
releasing many tiny pellets. That's how it's designed. The reason Putin
claimed the "tail" was hit is clear: an SU-25's heat-seeking missiles would
have aimed for the engines, not the cockpit. Thus, he was using this "alternative
fact", to use modern lingo, in order to give further credence to the SU-25
theory.
And if you pay attention to what I'm saying, you'll notice I don't believe
"Putin loves to shoot down civilian airliners for fun." I believe it was
an accident by the rebels.
A Buk is the whole system, not the missile, although that is a minor
point. The missile is the SA-11, and it goes where the system on the ground
guides it, attacking the center of mass. It likely hit the cockpit – if
it was an SA-11 – because it was leading the target slightly – algorithms
in the guidance radar would be sending the missile to a point the aircraft
would reach at a future moment in time if it remained on the same course
and speed.
But it does not 'target the cockpit', or any other physical feature
of the plane, instead seeing it as a whole and as a moving object.
I don't know why Putin would say the tail was hit, but he's not a
retard and he knows the difference between active homing and IR guidance,
and the engines of a 777 are
on the wing roots , not in the tail. Nobody with any brains launches
a heat-seeking missile in a head-to-head presentation; there's no heat trace
in front of a plane.
Regarding the MH17 story, the Mig 29 comes with a 30 mm cannon. Russian
radar tracking indicated more than one jet fighter in the vicinity of MH17.
So the Su-25 and its altitude limit is a non-issue.
The photo I posted has a "line" of circular 30 mm holes nearly equally
spaced and linear at the left edge of the cockpit section. This looks nothing
like the damage from random scattered Buk missile metal shrapnel. I doubt
the rebels faked these holes since the photograph is from a short period
after the crash before the gun strafing theory even showed up.
The angle that Pukeraine thought that Putin was flying on a civilian
jet similar to the MH17 at the same time and the same region and decided
to take him out is probably the only one that is relevant in this case.
A chance "score" by the rebels is not credible and the notion that the same
vintage launcher from Russia would make the rebel chances to shoot down
any aircraft at that altitude more likely are simply nonsense (show us the
dedicated radar unit and we have more to discuss).
Pukrainian jets buzzing around in close vicinity of MH17 is basically
a confirmed fact. The criminal clowns probably thought they were taking
down Putin's plane. They used both 30 mm gun fire and air to air missiles
to bring down the jet. The rest is ass covering propaganda history.
The Dutch national prosecutor's office had previously expressed irritation that
Russian-supplied radar data had not been provided in the internationally-accepted 'Asterix'
format developed by Eurocontrol.
But the office states that, following a supplementary request for assistance, the additional
radar information "should now be" in the required format, and will be "examined in depth" by
the joint investigation team
####
Irritated Dutch Syndrome (IDS)? There's a pill for that.
Just released and there is nothing else like it - Truth of Ukraine War Revealed: Watchdog
Media Releases Definitive Chronological Timeline Video of Ukrainian War From Euromaidan to
MH-17
"... According to some sources, the U.S. intelligence community disagrees over the likelihood of the alleged Russian role and has suggested as much privately to the Dutch. Some analysts who have looked at all the considerable body of information that has been collected relating to the downing actually believe that the most likely candidate might well be the then governor of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Ihor Kolomoisky, an oligarch billionaire who is an Israeli-Ukrainian dual national. Kolomoisky is known to employ Israeli mercenaries as advisers and has personally organized and paid for militias fighting the Russian separatists. He would have been strongly motivated to create an incident that could plausibly be blamed on the Russians or their surrogates and he had the means to do so. The government in Kiev acting independently also had the resources and motive to shoot down the plane and blame it on Moscow. ..."
"... It is a return to a Manichean view of the world as "them" and "us" with the implication that intelligence professionals are willing to restrain their dissent on an important issue if it serves to advance the current war of words with Russia. ..."
"... If Russia is indeed to blame for the airplane shoot down it should be held accountable, but it is up to the U.S. government to put its cards on the table and be clear about what it does and does not know. The original claims that Russia was involved were based on snap judgments based on bits of information that had been obtained immediately after the event, little of which has been subsequently corroborated through either satellite imagery or electronic and signal intercepts. ..."
"... In conclusion – most information points that MH17 was shot down at the behest of the US neocons and executed by their Ukrainian proxies . The majority of the US Government has not been involved in this act, but all information has been suppressed and this is why the US intelligence professionals have been complaining. ..."
"... The Americans would have picked-up and identified the radar emissions of the BUK/SA-11 system. They spend a vast amount on satellite, ground and airborne ELINT systems to maintain an up to date real-time global Electronic ORBAT. If a Russian BUK was used they would have its complete deployment history. And they would immediately have announced this smoking gun. ..."
"... Some Pentagon spokesman would have gleefully announced that the system used had last emitted in (say) Rostov on such-and-such a date and had moved there from Kaluga on such-and-such a date etc. But the Pentagon are saying NOTHING. And I haven't seen this rather obvious point reported in the English language media. ..."
"... The conclusion I draw is that the BUK used was operated by the Ukrainians. ..."
"... "Our" fatal flaw is what Phil has described as the political warping of the intelligence agencies, in which objective truth is superseded by spin. Michael Morell is prime example of why "we" are losing the real and the propaganda wars; the professionals are managed by the amateurs. (I wish Michael Scheuer would weigh in on Morell's self-inflating "The Great War of our Time", which unwittingly illustrates this divide.) ..."
"... Reported conversations among separatist claiming credit were eventually determined to be composite fakes produced by the Ukrainian intelligence services. ..."
"... Really disappointed that there isn't any attempt to employ standard material science techniques to determine the composition and providence of the projectiles, based on projectile smearing on the penetration points). Why haven't these dutch idiots contacted a decent laboratory to conduct WD-XRF (1) , GDMS and even ion-trap-MS (2) ..."
"... It is obvious that that blind, deaf and speechless are employed to ensure the investigation gets nowhere. ..."
"... In what way do you suppose Kolomoisky to be any worse than the lying scoundrels who make up the Kiev junta? In my experience, following the Ukrainian situation for the past 18 months, Kiev hardly ever says anything that is true. Moreover, Kolomoisky or any other oligarch acting on his own account would lack the callous brutality and the utter certainty of impunity that marks the US government's little "projects". ..."
"... Media consolidation has produced an astonishingly monolithic and compliant press. Correct. The level of suspicion and disrespect towards MSM is so high among sane people, that the propagandizing scoundrels exploit a relative trust that people have towards non-MSM sources of information. The exhibit one is one Mr. Higgings (UK) that pretends to be an independent amateur journalist posting his investigative "discoveries" on his blog Bellingcat. His "information" was quoted by the US government spokespersons as the evidence against Russian Federation re MH17 tragedy and US/RF conflict in Ukraine. ..."
"... However, it was revealed that Mr. Higgins is no lonely and nerdy fighter for truth but a well-connected person enjoying financial help from the private (Soros) and governmental (USAid) organizations. ..."
"... "USAID, working with billionaire George Soros's Open Society, also funds the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project, which engages in "investigative journalism" that usually goes after governments that have fallen into disfavor with the United States and then are singled out for accusations of corruption. The USAID-funded OCCRP also collaborates with Bellingcat, an online investigative website founded by blogger Eliot Higgins. ..."
"... Higgins has spread misinformation on the Internet, including discredited claims implicating the Syrian government in the sarin attack in 2013 and directing an Australian TV news crew to what appeared to be the wrong location for a video of a BUK anti-aircraft battery as it supposedly made its getaway to Russia after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in 2014. ..."
"... Despite his dubious record of accuracy, Higgins has gained mainstream acclaim, in part, because his "findings" always match up with the propaganda theme that the U.S. government and its Western allies are peddling. Though most genuinely independent bloggers are ignored by the mainstream media, Higgins has found his work touted." ..."
"... The investigators - in a conference call promoting an upcoming documentary, "Flight 800" - charged the original probe ignored testimony from nearly 700 eyewitnesses and included evidence tampering. ..."
"... PanAm 103 is a great example of CIA media control and coverup. It took over two decades but the evidence was so overwhelming that the British released the "terrorist mastermind" convicted of blowing up this aircraft. I wrote about his in 2007 and the article can be read here: http://www.g2mil.com/fire.htm The March 28th entry. Here is part: ..."
"... I personally do not believe that anyone was trying to shoot-down Putin's plane, I believe that the shooting down of MH17 was a carefully planned act, not dissimilar to Maidan sniper shootings and similar false flags employed before. The circle of people involved in this act was small, but now the whole Western establishment: the politicians, the MSM and the heads of intelligence services have a strong interest to defend the perpetrators and little cost of doing so. ..."
"... The Russian military have made public some of their info, this was on the activity of four Ukrainian ground based anti-aircraft units on the day of the shootdown. But the Russians never said that those units launched any missiles on the day, only that their targeting radars were active. The Russians asked why when the Separatists had no aircraft. Whilst the rotating surveillance radars are on all the time (unless the enemy has launched a radar-honing missile), the targeting radars are turned on only for an aircraft (practice or real attack). There must have been some target for the targeting radar to be turned on. Could it be that these Ukrainian targeting radars were tracking an unknown military jet which was in the general vicinity of MH17? If the shootdown was a secret action, the military jet's flight would not have been announced to the Ukrainian air defense and the military brass may have suspected it was an enemy (Russian) military jet. ..."
"... But the main issue is the pattern of own behavior which the West has established: (1) too much rhetoric from the zero hour of shootdown, (2) quoting of youtube and twitter "evidence" (3) instead of even a small piece of evidence from the trillion dollars per year worth of military assets and intelligence focused on Eastern Ukraine. ..."
"... MH17 Most Likely Shot Down by Air-to-Air Missile: "The data that the Russian Investigative Committee possesses, confirms the testimony of Evgeniy Agapov, a witness from Ukraine who served as a mechanic in the First Squadron Brigade of Tactical Aviation of the Ukrainian Air Force In December, a former Ukrainian airbase employee, whose name at the time was not disclosed, said he saw a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 combat jet carrying air-to-air missiles taking off, on the day of the tragedy, from an airbase in eastern Dnipropetrovsk, and later seeing the same plane return without any missiles." ..."
"... Finally, MH17 route would have taken it through a short dimension of the Separatist's territory: 50km wide. An intercontinental passenger jet at cruising speed takes a little more than three minutes to cross it. For the plane to fall-down into this 50km x 80km ellipse, it would have had to be targeted by BUK whilst well inside a Kiev controlled territory. Based on its fly route, MH17 would not have been suspicious to the Separatists because it was not coming from the zone where the Ukrainian military airports are and it was flying way too high to be any kind of threat. ..."
"... In short, a mistake, drunken or sober, makes no sense, although it is theoretically possible. This is why my most probable explanation is a planned neocon act, a continuation of the Maidan sniper deception. It is a logical next step and what happens when you do not capture the Maidan sniping perpetrators – 298 people paid for this ..."
"... Regarding the RT report of Russian intercepts of Ukrainian SAM tracking radar transmissions - I completely missed this. And I follow the Ukrainian situation closely; not just RT, but Cassad, Gleb Bazov, Saker and the other side (BBC, Guardian, Kyivpost etc). ..."
"... The "CW terminal guidance mode" is the final phase in the complex operation of a targeting radar, when it illuminates the target to be destroyed with the so called, Continuous Wave, just like shining a flashlight at a shooter's target. The detection of such radar emission mode by US or Russia would have been solid proof that a SAM shot down MH17, either Kiev's one or Separatist's one. When I wrote "even a small piece of evidence from the trillion dollars per year worth of military assets" I meant that the US never presented such elementary evidence from its expensive sigint and it would have been impossible to miss. Thus Giraldi's "Somebody knows" in the title is justified. ..."
At this point, the United States, which together with other interested parties has been
reviewing a copy of the report in draft, does not intend to present its own findings but will
instead go along with the Dutch conclusions. Among former intelligence, military and Foreign
Service officers there has been considerable discussion of the significance of Washington's
standing on the sidelines regarding the findings. To be sure, there are a number of rumors and
allegations circulating relating to what is actually known or not know about the shoot
down.
According to some sources, the U.S. intelligence community disagrees over the likelihood
of the alleged Russian role and has suggested as much privately to the Dutch. Some analysts who
have looked at all the considerable body of information that has been collected relating to the
downing actually believe that the most likely candidate might well be the then governor of the
Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Ihor Kolomoisky, an oligarch billionaire who is an Israeli-Ukrainian dual
national. Kolomoisky is known to employ Israeli mercenaries as advisers and has personally
organized and paid for militias fighting the Russian separatists. He would have been strongly
motivated to create an incident that could plausibly be blamed on the Russians or their
surrogates and he had the means to do so. The government in Kiev acting independently also had
the resources and motive to shoot down the plane and blame it on Moscow.
The dominant narrative that is still circulating widely suggests that either a direct or
enabling Russian role is a given based on the claimed origin of the Buk missile, technical
analysis of the plume and trajectory, and the military units that were known to be in place or
moving at the time. And there was also the apparent separatist bragging on communications
intercepts about shooting down a transport plane. This was the explanation that surfaced
shortly after the downing, that was heavily promoted by the Ukrainian government and the media
and that has been much favored by the international punditry ever since.
The third option of how to explain the shoot down is, of course, the Dutch approach: we
think it was the Russians but we can't prove it. That is an easy choice to make as it really
says nothing, which is possibly why it is being favored by the White House.
But if it is actually true that there has been considerable dissent on the findings, the
tacit acceptance of a possibly unreliable and essentially unsustainable report by the White
House will have significant impact on relations with Russia. It constitutes a disturbing
rejection of possibly accurate intelligence analysis in favor of a politically safe alternative
explanation. It recalls the politicization of intelligence that included Robert Gates' Soviet
assessments of the 1980s, John McLaughlin's tergiversation regarding Iraq, and, most recently,
Michael Morell's over the top hyping of the threat posed by political Islam.
It is a return
to a Manichean view of the world as "them" and "us" with the implication that intelligence
professionals are willing to restrain their dissent on an important issue if it serves to
advance the current war of words with Russia.
To be sure, deep sixing intelligence assessments that contradict policies that the White
House is intent on pursuing anyway buys congenial access to the President and his advisers but
it comes at the cost of diminishing the ability of the intelligence community to provide
objective and reliable information in a timely fashion, which is at least in theory why it
exists at all. Producing honest intelligence will, on the contrary, strengthen both the
reputations and credibility of all involved.
If Russia is indeed to blame for the airplane shoot down it should be held accountable,
but it is up to the U.S. government to put its cards on the table and be clear about what it
does and does not know. The original claims that Russia was involved were based on snap
judgments based on bits of information that had been obtained immediately after the event,
little of which has been subsequently corroborated through either satellite imagery or
electronic and signal intercepts.
Since that time the German BND intelligence service has
expressed its
doubts
that the missile used in the shoot down could have been supplied by Russia and has
also claimed that photos provided by the Ukrainian government as part of the investigation had
been "doctored." There have also been
reports
regarding a Ukrainian fighter plane being
in the area of the airliner as well as the nearby presence of Ukrainian ground to air missile
units. Reported conversations among separatist claiming credit were eventually
determined to be
composite fakes produced by the Ukrainian intelligence services. Presumably U.S. intelligence
has also taken a long and hard look at all the evidence or lack thereof but it is being quiet
regarding what it has determined.
It is important to get this right because the potential damage goes far beyond the role of
intelligence or even who might have been responsible for the downing of an airliner one year
ago. As the relationship with Russia is of critical importance and should be regarded as the
number one national security issue for the United States, it is essential that the Dutch
conclusions be aggressively challenged if there is even the slightest possibility that Russia
is blameless.
One does not have to be a fan of Vladimir Putin to appreciate that the nearly continuous
efforts being promoted within mostly neoconservative circles to both delegitimize and confront
him and his regime do not serve any conceivable American national interest. In an Independence
Day
phone
call
to President Obama, President Putin called for a working relationship with the United
States based on "equality and respect," which should, under the circumstances, be a given.
Americans have been lied into intervention and war more than once over the past fifteen years
and it should be clear to all that any contrived crisis based on an erroneous conclusion
regarding a shot down airliner that develops into an armed conflict with Russia will have
unimaginable consequences. A skeptical American public and international community must demand
that any MH-17 report should reflect a full assessment, to include any dissent from its
conclusions registered by the United States intelligence community. Any information at variance
with the conventional view, particularly anything that suggests that there might be other
interested parties who had both the means and compelling interest to shoot down a civilian
airliner, must become a part of the discussion.
After reading, listening to and watching so much of the information about the shooting
down of MH17 I put forward the most likely scenario and some important related points.
If the Ukrainians shot it down, then it would have been a deliberate and planned act;
if the Separatists did it it would have been a totally stupid mistake. Shooting down a plane
which even falls onto their territory was definitely not in their interest.
If MH17 was shot-down by the Ukrainians then nobody would believe that the West was not
involved in this act, therefore the West has a strong incentive to defend its Ukrainians even
if it knows that they have done it.
It is possible that the US neocons knew of the plan to shoot down a passenger plane, but
it was unlikely that this was known within the wider US Administration
The Prime Minister of Australia one Tony Abbott, was screaming his head off against the
Russians about 7 hours after the shoot-down; he reduced rhetoric later, but how did he know
who did it so quickly?
It is not impossible but it is not easy to shoot down a passenger plane flying at almost
11,000 m and at a high speed from the ground. When the USS Vincennes downed the Iran Air
Flight 655, this plane was still climbing up. Other examples of shootdowns were mostly by
military jets, not by Surface-to-Air missiles (SAMs).
Therefore, most likely the MH17 was shot down by a military jet, because nobody saw a very
visible plume from a BUK missile.
7) It is extremely unlikely that the US does not have satellite imagery, where is it?
Who directed a civilian jet over a small conflict area (50km x 80km)?
Why the black boxes were never analysed and sound of the last few seconds played in the
media, as it usually happens?
What about news that the Ukrainian Government was given the right of veto over the
investigative report's content? This would make this report totally compromised and
worthless.
In conclusion – most information points that MH17 was shot down at the behest of
the US neocons and executed by their Ukrainian proxies . The majority of the US
Government has not been involved in this act, but all information has been suppressed and
this is why the US intelligence professionals have been complaining.
The Dog That Didn't Bark in the MH17 case is ELINT.
The Americans would have picked-up and identified the radar emissions of the BUK/SA-11
system. They spend a vast amount on satellite, ground and airborne ELINT systems to maintain an up
to date real-time global Electronic ORBAT. If a Russian BUK was used they would have its
complete deployment history. And they would immediately have announced this smoking gun.
Some Pentagon spokesman would have gleefully announced that the system used had last
emitted in (say) Rostov on such-and-such a date and had moved there from Kaluga on
such-and-such a date etc. But the Pentagon are saying NOTHING. And I haven't seen this rather obvious point reported
in the English language media.
The conclusion I draw is that the BUK used was operated by the Ukrainians.
Since we all know that anything in Ukrainian airspace is tracked by not only the Uke
air-traffic control and military and by Russia and the United States via satellite, then it
's simply a matter of reviewing radar tracks and sat-imaging.
One glaring unanswered question is why only that particular flight out of the many other
previous flights was diverted East over the dangerous contested territory and not in
established safe air traffic lanes? Why would a commercial airliner fly at a lower than usual
altitude unless so directed by the State ATC?
So far there has been a thundering silence from the Ukes and the US while Russia has
released information about fighter jets following MH-17 and testimony from an employee at a
Uke airbase that witnessed a Uke SU-25 return without missiles.
This would account for the holes in the cockpit fuselage that are consistent with 30mm
cannonfire entering and exiting that rescue workers observed in the wreckage that have no
other explanation and cannot be made by large BUK missile fragments.
The silence seems to indicate that the rush to frame the Separatist East Ukrainians and,
by proxy, Russia has failed and the evidence will clearly show that.
@jimmyriddle
The Dog That Didn't Bark in the MH17 case is ELINT.
The Americans would have picked-up and identified the radar emissions of the BUK/SA-11
system.
They spend a vast amount on satellite, ground and airborne ELINT systems to maintain an up
to date real-time global Electronic ORBAT. If a Russian BUK was used they would have its
complete deployment history. And they would immediately have announced this smoking gun.
Some Pentagon spokesman would have gleefully announced that the system used had last
emitted in (say) Rostov on such-and-such a date and had moved there from Kaluga on
such-and-such a date etc
But the Pentagon are saying NOTHING. And I haven't seen this rather obvious point reported
in the English language media.
The conclusion I draw is that the BUK used was operated by the Ukrainians. The dog that
didn't bark is not quite the exact analogy; the pack of wildly baying hounds that suddenly
went mute is more appropriate. Of course both US and Russian analysts had detailed sigint and
high-res coverage of every square inch of Ukraine at the time, and it was only when the
empire knew what the Russians knew that the fake hysteria came to an abrupt halt.
Spycraft is fascinating, but even if you pay very close attention, the layman can only
speculate on the meaning of the shadows of the quickly-passing invisible men. I believe the
Russians have a distinct advantage, because Putin understands the process and our leaders do
not. What they all share is the necessity of obscuring every bit of truth.
"Our" fatal flaw is what Phil has described as the political warping of the intelligence
agencies, in which objective truth is superseded by spin. Michael Morell is prime example of
why "we" are losing the real and the propaganda wars; the professionals are managed by the
amateurs. (I wish Michael Scheuer would weigh in on Morell's self-inflating "The Great War of
our Time", which unwittingly illustrates this divide.)
Reported conversations among separatist claiming credit were eventually determined to be
composite fakes produced by the Ukrainian intelligence services.
The attached link does not provide any evidence that is the case. In fact, a
Vice reporter went and talked to one of the separatists on the tapes, and he admitted it was
him.
The problem is that all the information we get on this case comes from governments, so it
can't be reliable. But this is the closest thing to third party confirmation that at least
one piece of evidence released by one side is correct.
The problem is that all the information we get on this case comes from governments, so
it can't be reliable
You think VICE is reliable? Probably not the best judgment
considering a VICE founder's personal history (never mind he chums with such stellar
'truth-tellers' as Rupert Murdoch.)
Very little commercial media (probably none in actuality) could be considered 'reliable.'
Some is better than others, depending on the subject matter, the geography covered, the
political slant of management and often out and out personal prejudices (not to mention
commercial news outlets being highly valued targets and consequent coveted assets of
intelligence agencies.)
What VICE news and The Intercept (Right & Left of the spectrum respectively) share in
common is anti-Russia bias due to either management or owner-bankroller geopolitical
alignment. Management hiring and assignment policies will reflect those bias and you often
will get fed lines of BS accordingly or outright false stories.
It seems that the "international" investigators only have rudimentary puzzle solving
skills necessary to figure out how the parts fit together. From what I have read many of the
critical parts were even left back at the crash site to ensure failure.
Really disappointed that there isn't any attempt to employ standard material science
techniques to determine the composition and providence of the projectiles, based on
projectile smearing on the penetration points). Why haven't these dutch idiots contacted a
decent laboratory to conduct WD-XRF (1) , GDMS and even ion-trap-MS (2)
(1) Rigaku, ZSX Primus II Wavelength dispersive x-ray fluorescence spectroscopy
(WDXRF)
To get really fancy, a magnetic sector ICP-MS system could be used to identify the source
and even batch of the munitions based on isotopic abundances.
It is obvious that that blind, deaf and speechless are employed to ensure the
investigation gets nowhere.
@Tom
Welsh
"My take is that the Americans know that Kolomoisky is heavily involved".
In what way do you suppose Kolomoisky to be any worse than the lying scoundrels who make
up the Kiev junta? In my experience, following the Ukrainian situation for the past 18
months, Kiev hardly ever says anything that is true. Moreover, Kolomoisky or any other
oligarch acting on his own account would lack the callous brutality and the utter certainty
of impunity that marks the US government's little "projects".
Kolomoisky was not worse than
the rest of the gang. But he was more "representative". He was too upfront with things that
the others try to keep under wraps:
"Kolomoyski is a prominent supporter of Ukraine's Jewish community and the president of
the United Jewish Community of Ukraine. In 2010 he was appointed as the president of the
European Council of Jewish Communities after promising the outgoing president he would donate
$14 million, with his appointment being described as a "putsch" and a "Soviet-style takeover"
by other EJCJ board members. After several ECJC board members resigned in protest, Kolomyski
quit the ECJC and, together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, founded the
European Jewish Union." (Wikipedia)
"Oleg Rostovtsev, a spokesman for the Jewish community, which has 50 000 parishioners,
supports the renaming of Dnepropetrovsk to Jerusalem-on-the-Dnieper:
"Jerusalem for residents of Dnepropetrovsk is a city of peace, not conflict. Many of us have
already visited Jerusalem, worshiped the holy places, came back and said: here it's almost
the same – next to the synagogue stands a mosque, and nearby there are churches and
monasteries. We also respect our different traditions". @
http://fortruss.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/dnepropetrovsk-could-be-renamed.htm
@Bill
Jones
One huge difference between Tonkin and now is that during Vietnam, some within the
mainstream media asked inconvenient questions.
Media consolidation has produced an astonishingly monolithic and compliant press. Correct.
The level of suspicion and disrespect towards MSM is so high among sane people, that the
propagandizing scoundrels exploit a relative trust that people have towards non-MSM sources
of information. The exhibit one is one Mr. Higgings (UK) that pretends to be an independent
amateur journalist posting his investigative "discoveries" on his blog Bellingcat. His
"information" was quoted by the US government spokespersons as the evidence against Russian
Federation re MH17 tragedy and US/RF conflict in Ukraine.
However, it was revealed that Mr.
Higgins is no lonely and nerdy fighter for truth but a well-connected person enjoying
financial help from the private (Soros) and governmental (USAid) organizations.
@annamaria
Why the US govt' spokespersons like quoting one Mr. Higgins (of Bellingcat notoriety).
"USAID, working with billionaire George Soros's Open Society, also funds the Organized Crime
and Corruption Reporting Project, which engages in "investigative journalism" that usually
goes after governments that have fallen into disfavor with the United States and then are
singled out for accusations of corruption. The USAID-funded OCCRP also collaborates with
Bellingcat, an online investigative website founded by blogger Eliot Higgins.
Higgins has spread misinformation on the Internet, including discredited claims implicating
the Syrian government in the sarin attack in 2013 and directing an Australian TV news crew to
what appeared to be the wrong location for a video of a BUK anti-aircraft battery as it
supposedly made its getaway to Russia after the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in
2014.
Despite his dubious record of accuracy, Higgins has gained mainstream acclaim, in part,
because his "findings" always match up with the propaganda theme that the U.S. government and
its Western allies are peddling. Though most genuinely independent bloggers are ignored by
the mainstream media, Higgins has found his work touted."
@Biff
My guess is when October comes we will find little to nothing new about MH17, if history is
any guide.
Take PamAm flight 800 for example which occurred in 1996, and it is still up for
debate:
The investigators - in a conference call promoting an upcoming documentary, "Flight 800" -
charged the original probe ignored testimony from nearly 700 eyewitnesses and included
evidence tampering.
PanAm flight 103 is still awash in conspiracy theories being blamed on either the Libyans
or the Iranians depending on who is doing the blaming:
As revenge for the bombing of a Berlin nightclub where two U.S. personnel were killed,
President Ronald Reagan ordered the bombing of Libya's capital Tripoli and the Libyan city
of Benghazi in 1986. Some people think that bombing Pan Am Flight 103 was in retaliation
for these bombings.
In 1988, the USS Vincennes (a U.S. guided missile cruiser) shot down an Iranian
passenger jet, killing all 290 people on board. There is little doubt that this caused as
much horror and sorrow as the explosion on Flight 103. The U.S. government claims that the
USS Vincennes mistakenly identified the passenger plane as an F-14 fighter jet. Other
people believe that the bombing over Lockerbie was in retaliation for this
disaster.
PanAm 103 is a great example of CIA media control and coverup. It took over two
decades but the evidence was so overwhelming that the British released the "terrorist
mastermind" convicted of blowing up this aircraft. I wrote about his in 2007 and the article
can be read here:
http://www.g2mil.com/fire.htm
The March 28th entry. Here
is part:
..A 1993 book Trail of the Octopus offers details on how Iran downed Pan Am 103 over
Lockerbie.[2] Iranian leaders were furious at the "accident" in which their Airbus was
destroyed. Blowing up an American 747 would be ideal revenge. Through their contacts with the
Beirut PFLP-GC revolutionary group, they were told a bomb could be placed on an American 747
if the price was right.
Beirut is a traditional transit point for illegal narcotics, and a major station for the
U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). The PFLP-GC was also in the drug business. The
DEA had arrested one of its drug couriers as he arrived in New York by air. He cut a deal for
a lesser sentence and continued to smuggle heroin to New York City so the DEA could track its
distribution and destroy this network. To ensure their drug mule got to New York safely,
agents of the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) carried his checked baggage past
security in Cyprus. The DIA is a little known U.S. intelligence agency that has almost no
Congressional oversight or restrictions because it is part of the Defense Department.
The PFLP-GC learned of this betrayal about the same time the Iranians were shopping for a
way to down a 747. The solution was simple. Place a time delayed/altitude triggered bomb in
the bag of the drug courier. This would explode on its final leg to New York when it was
mostly full of Americans, killing the snitch as well. The plan worked perfectly, killing
nearly the same number of innocents that the USS Vincennes claimed. As an added bonus, they
selected a flight with four U.S. intelligence officers on the passenger list: Matthew Gannon,
the CIA's deputy station chief in Beirut, Major Chuck "Tiny" McKee, a U.S. Army officer
assigned to the DIA in Beirut, and two other CIA officers.[3] It seems reasonable that Major
McKee was onboard to ensure the courier didn't slip away.
Needless to say, the DIA was in panic after Pan Am 103 blew up. They had never bothered to
search the suitcase to ensure it only had heroin as they smuggled the bomb through security
and on the Pan Am flight . This blunder was not good for careers, America's image, or foreign
policy. In addition, the U.S. Government would be humiliated if Iran were credited for
revenge with the aid of duped American agents. It would also threaten to expose the truth
behind the USS Vincennes shoot down, which Newsweek exposed four years later. Finally, the
U.S. Government would find it difficult to explain why Captain Will Rogers, the man
responsible for the deaths of 259 Iranian pilgrims on the Airbus flight to Mecca, and thus
indirectly responsible for the retaliatory bombing over Lockerbie, was not in prison, but had
been awarded a medal and a hefty U.S. Navy pension.
This is why Libya was blamed for Lockerbie. The U.S. Government hated Libyan leader
Gaddafi. This Sandhurst trained "madman," had overthrown Libya's Anglo-American puppet king,
kicked the USA out of Wheelus Air Force Base, its premier Mediterranean air training base,
and began buying Soviet equipment rather than American weapons. Worst of all, he wasted his
nations oil wealth improving the lives of Libyans rather than investing profits in Western
corporations ..
@Wizard
of Oz
Another balance to strike is between the probability of a careless or illinformed
or drunk or stupid rebel making a disastrous mistake and a professional air force pilot being
sent up to shoot down a foreign passenger airliner and actually carrying it out. One need to
know a little about ground based air defense to make such a cliched conclusion: "a drunk
separatist". Shooting down a fast moving plane at 11 km altitude does take quite a bit of
skill, attention, effort and even a bit of luck.
But,
a Russian separatist drank two
bottles of vodka and then he leaned on the missile launch button
would not be much worse
than the majority of other stories that the West has put forward so far. This emphasizes that
so far, the West has put forward only the rhetoric/stories and almost no evidence at all.
I personally do not believe that anyone was trying to shoot-down Putin's plane, I believe
that the shooting down of MH17 was a carefully planned act, not dissimilar to Maidan sniper
shootings and similar false flags employed before. The circle of people involved in this act
was small, but now the whole Western establishment: the politicians, the MSM and the heads of
intelligence services have a strong interest to defend the perpetrators and little cost of
doing so.
I wrote when it happened a year ago – "We will never know the real truth for
certain" and I maintain this.
The shooting down of MH17 has joined the realm of conspiracy
theories (which thrive when the "official explanation" is poorly supported by facts)
:
Kennedy assassination, 911 and so on.
@Wizard
of Oz
jimmyriddle is obviously a professional or someone with a very good knowledge of
sigint (signals intelligence). Essentially, every anti-aircraft radar costs a lot of money
and there is a limited number of them in the World. All militarily advanced countries of the
World, especially former USSR and US, have always collected electronic signatures of each
radar. This has many uses but I do not want to digress. It is practically impossible to shoot
down a plane from the ground or from air without using a radar, at least during some part of
the action. It is totally impossible that neither Russia nor US have monitored electronic
emissions
in a conflict zone in which both had their special forces
. None of this
sigint is very secret, where is the US sigint from the day? Neither satellite images, nor
sigint info have been made public, nada, zilch, zero.
The MH370 loss is not comparable because this plane was not lost in the hottest military
zone on Earth – Eastern Ukraine.
The Russian military have made public some of their info, this was on the activity of four
Ukrainian ground based anti-aircraft units on the day of the shootdown. But the Russians
never said that those units launched any missiles on the day, only that their targeting
radars were active. The Russians asked why when the Separatists had no aircraft. Whilst the
rotating surveillance radars are on all the time (unless the enemy has launched a
radar-honing missile), the targeting radars are turned on only for an aircraft (practice or
real attack). There must have been some target for the targeting radar to be turned on. Could
it be that these Ukrainian targeting radars were tracking an unknown military jet which was
in the general vicinity of MH17? If the shootdown was a secret action, the military jet's
flight would not have been announced to the Ukrainian air defense and the military brass may
have suspected it was an enemy (Russian) military jet.
But the main issue is the pattern of own behavior which the West has established:
(1) too much rhetoric from the zero hour of shootdown,
(2) quoting of youtube and twitter "evidence"
(3) instead of even a small piece of evidence from the trillion dollars per year worth of
military assets and intelligence focused on Eastern Ukraine.
@Wizard
of Oz
As I said this is a point worth following up but, when you think about it, there
may even be a stronger argument of opposite import. Wouldn't the Russians be at least as
likely to be monitoring minutely everything going on within a few kilometres of the Russian
border where fighting is taking place and Russians, in whatever capacity, are involved (or,
if you like, just pro-Russian rebels are involved)? "Wouldn't the Russians be at least as
likely to be monitoring minutely everything going on within a few kilometres of the Russian
border"
Not necessarily. Russia isn't the USSR. Its ability to maintain EORBATS is limited – for example,
Russia's satellite-based missile early warning system is currently out of operation. Until recently Ukrainian air defence systems would not be a priority as conflict with
Ukraine would have been considered unthinkable. So, while it seems likely that Russian
ELINT/ESM systems would have detected the tracking radar, they wouldn't necessarily have had
the historical EORBAT required to prove that the system was Ukrainian-controlled.
@Biff
My guess is when October comes we will find little to nothing new about MH17, if history is
any guide.
Take PamAm flight 800 for example which occurred in 1996, and it is still up for
debate:
The investigators - in a conference call promoting an upcoming documentary, "Flight 800" -
charged the original probe ignored testimony from nearly 700 eyewitnesses and included
evidence tampering.
PanAm flight 103 is still awash in conspiracy theories being blamed on either the Libyans
or the Iranians depending on who is doing the blaming:
As revenge for the bombing of a Berlin nightclub where two U.S. personnel were killed,
President Ronald Reagan ordered the bombing of Libya's capital Tripoli and the Libyan city
of Benghazi in 1986. Some people think that bombing Pan Am Flight 103 was in retaliation
for these bombings.
In 1988, the USS Vincennes (a U.S. guided missile cruiser) shot down an Iranian
passenger jet, killing all 290 people on board. There is little doubt that this caused as
much horror and sorrow as the explosion on Flight 103. The U.S. government claims that the
USS Vincennes mistakenly identified the passenger plane as an F-14 fighter jet. Other
people believe that the bombing over Lockerbie was in retaliation for this
disaster.
"The U.S. government claims that the USS Vincennes mistakenly identified the
passenger plane as an F-14 fighter jet".
Another obvious, transparent, utterly brazen lie. Is there anyone so naive as to believe
any part of this for even a moment? The Aegis missile ships were designed from the ground up
to protect American carrier task groups from swarms of incoming Soviet missiles and/or
aircraft. How the hell could they do that if they couldn't tell the difference between an
attacking jet fighter of US manufacture (hence extremely familiar) and a civilian airliner
ascending along its planned and well-known flight path? Aegis was designed, I repeat, the
handle dozens of incoming supersonic missiles! Yet when presented with the simplest
imaginable situation – a single relatively slow, lumbering airliner (going even slower
than cruising speed while it climbed) the technically expert crew and its battery of powerful
computers supposedly mistook this airliner for an attacking F-14?
This is as if to say that an expert veteran big game hunter shot dead a prize cow, at
point blank range, because he mistook it for an attacking lion!
I understand that subsequent examination of the Vincennes' computer records showed that
the computers were never deceived for a moment: they identified the Iranian Airbus as an
Iranian Airbus. So presumably the crew were so pathetically panicky or staggeringly
incompetent that they misread their own displays in their single-minded determination to
believe they were being attacked.
At the very least, the US government was utterly guilty of shooting down the Iranian
airliner. A plea of "mistaken identity", as well as being almost unbelievable, would also
fail in principle. Someone who deliberately programs computers and sets up an elaborate
weapons system is clearly responsible for all harm done by that system, faulty or not.
MH17 Most Likely Shot Down by Air-to-Air Missile:
"The data that the Russian Investigative Committee possesses, confirms the testimony of
Evgeniy Agapov, a witness from Ukraine who served as a mechanic in the First Squadron Brigade
of Tactical Aviation of the Ukrainian Air Force In December, a former Ukrainian airbase
employee, whose name at the time was not disclosed, said he saw a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25
combat jet carrying air-to-air missiles taking off, on the day of the tragedy, from an
airbase in eastern Dnipropetrovsk, and later seeing the same plane return without any
missiles."
from comments section: "Putin was actually supposed to fly that same route only an hour or
so prior, but the route Putin's jet took was altered. If you ask me, it was a case of
mistaken identity. Kiev was gunning for Putin, and instead shot down the passenger jet."
I am not surprised that you have a problem understanding people as you either don't
pay careful attention to what people say or have a deeper problem with language and logic
(maybe, it occurs to me, a limited vocabulary). Your Humpty Dumpty attitude to usage is
exemplified by the use of "tantrum" in reference to my "Knave or Fool?". But you really are
beyond the pale of intelligent conversation if you can read what I write, especially about
events in the Ukraine, and suppose that I am other than an agnostic of contrarian habit. You
mention Cambridge but I don't think you ever had the benefit of the Oxbridge tutorial
system. which would have required you to justify your essays against questions testing your
facts, logic and precision of language. A pity. Still it might not be too late for "mature"
age entry if some sort of affirmative action could be justified. At least a balanced,
emotional-free and focused comment from you. Now we can discuss without calling each other
fool, knave and the like.
Do not worry about my education, I have had plenty of it, Internet is my biggest teacher
now.
If you are interested why I asked you if you were from another planet, it is because of
this: "Oh btw a drunk person can use a laser or other homing device once fuxed on a
target".
Since you are an Australian (from another planet), your comment reminded me of the news in
the Sydney Morning Herald of some Bogan shining a green laser pointer at the planes taking
off and landing at Sydney Airport, trying to blind pilots and cause a crash. The police said
they would catch him/her and he/she would get 20 years in the cooler just for shining. Maybe
this was your idea of a tipsy person shooting down a passenger plane using a laser (yes, I am
putting a funny spin on your tipsy/drunken shootdown comment).
BUK missile battery is a 60-ties technology weapon, it is not a computerized modern
phased-array system, it takes a minimum of three people to operate and normally five (all
drunken or tipsy, of course). There is no way in the world that the Separatists (farmers and
factory workers) would have been able to get one from Russia or capture one from the enemy
and then use it at all, let alone successfully within days. If Russia gave it, then Russia
would have had to send a whole trained crew (not impossible). The Ukrainian planes shoot-down
before were shotdown using MANPADS (shoulder-fired self-honing missiles), which even a farmer
can learn to use in a few days. The way AA defense works, is that most military jets, large
and small, fly below 10km because they have little business to do above and their small wings
do not offer efficient lift, unlike the huge wings of passenger jets. The old AA defense
(that BUK belongs to) was optimized for targets at altitude below 10km where military jets
spent most time attacking ground targets and fighting other planes. Only the newest AA
systems now aim for lower orbit (100 km) to catch ballistic missiles. Fighter jets and
bombers now spend most time between 5km and 10km (or they hug the terrain at a very low
altitude), because MANPADS can reach up to 5 km and they usually use passive sensors instead
of radar, which means they are more difficult to recognize (which is why they are so very
dangerous, as proven against the Russians in Afghanistan).
Finally, MH17 route would have taken it through a short dimension of the Separatist's
territory: 50km wide. An intercontinental passenger jet at cruising speed takes a little more
than three minutes to cross it. For the plane to fall-down into this 50km x 80km ellipse, it
would have had to be targeted by BUK whilst well inside a Kiev controlled territory. Based on
its fly route, MH17 would not have been suspicious to the Separatists because it was not
coming from the zone where the Ukrainian military airports are and it was flying way too high
to be any kind of threat.
In short, a mistake, drunken or sober, makes no sense, although it is theoretically
possible. This is why my most probable explanation is a planned neocon act, a continuation of
the Maidan sniper deception. It is a logical next step and what happens when you do not
capture the Maidan sniping perpetrators – 298 people paid for this
.
@jimmyriddle
But the main issue is the pattern of own behavior which the West has established:
1) too much rhetoric from the zero hour of shootdown,
2) quoting of youtube and twitter "evidence"
3) instead of even a small piece of evidence from the trillion dollars per year worth of
military assets and intelligence focused on Eastern Ukraine.
Nail on the head.
Regarding the RT report of Russian intercepts of Ukrainian SAM tracking radar
transmissions - I completely missed this. And I follow the Ukrainian situation closely; not
just RT, but Cassad, Gleb Bazov, Saker and the other side (BBC, Guardian, Kyivpost etc).
The timings of these intercepts would be crucial. It would also be of interest if the Fire
Dome (NATO designation) radar entered its CW terminal guidance mode. Hello Jimmy. This is one article about the activity of the Ukrainian targeting radar on the day:
http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/
BTW, in 2001, Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner with 78 passengers and crew at a lower
altitude, by using a 1980s system S-200 (the last one from the Soviet Union) during military
exercises. Russia produces a new generation SAM system about every 15 years since the SU:
S300
S400 (current)
S500 in development.
But I never considered that the Russians were saying that the Ukrainian radar was involved
in the shooting down, just that it was tracking a suspicious aircraft. If an unannounced
flight was indicated by surveillance radar, an air defense battery would have been activated
to be ready to shoot it down, and this may have been the plane which shot down MH17 with one
or more AA missiles and (maybe) the 30 mm gun. Therefore, I do not believe that Ukranian
radar ever got to the "CW terminal guidance mode" and the Russians never said so, to my
knowledge.
The "CW terminal guidance mode" is the final phase in the complex operation of a targeting
radar, when it illuminates the target to be destroyed with the so called, Continuous Wave,
just like shining a flashlight at a shooter's target. The detection of such radar emission
mode by US or Russia would have been solid proof that a SAM shot down MH17, either Kiev's one
or Separatist's one. When I wrote "even a small piece of evidence from the trillion dollars
per year worth of military assets" I meant that the US never presented such elementary
evidence from its expensive sigint and it would have been impossible to miss. Thus Giraldi's
"Somebody knows" in the title is justified.
@Wizard
of Oz
Well that all hangs together which makes it an unusual comment here but I repeat my
incredulity at the idea that Putin's plane was ever scheduled to be flying over Eastern
Ukraine. Coming from where? Istanbul?
Now here's another possibility.... Both for Putin's actual security and to smoke out the
Ukrainians (or CIA or whoever) the flight was scheduled to fly over the Eastern Ukraine - or
at least the appearance was given that this was so - but it was never intended to happen.
Now one has to keep thinking and ask what the Ukrainians who were able to order the hit
would have calculated what would happen if they murdered the Russian president. Think about
it! Even if the name of Gavril Prinzip didn't come to mind they must have forseen
catastrophe. I agree with you.
The notion that President Putin's security detail would allow his jet to overfly a
conflict area where false-flag units can fire a long range anti-aircraft missile and blame it
on somebody else makes no sense.
If FSB leaked the alleged route over Ukraine, they had a very good reason and a
purpose.
They would never actually allow Putin's jet to take such a dangerous route.
FSB may be many things, but they are not stupid.
And neither is Putin.
@Wizard
of Oz
In brief I wonder how so much attention got focused on chemical effects on the
brain out of all the 100 improbable causal explanations for an accident or crime that are
still current. Bearing in mind the drugs and alcohol that have been used by world leaders
(Churchill e.g.) it might not be particularly unlikely that some bottle friendly strong
personality said "FFS, it will be gone in 30 seconds: just fire the fucking thing". We can
only guess at how that rates against an air force pilot deliberately shooting down a foreign
passenger plane. An older man would know he could well end up as the scapegoat. So do we
suppose it was a rookie who has been sold a lot of confusing BS?
I am reminded of a very good "Big Ideas" address on the ABC''s Radio National by Cordelia
Fine on what is now known about male and female brains. Her salient conclusion was that for
all the many ways male and female brains differ for genetic and epigenetic reasons, all these
average tendencies didn't allow prediction of precise behaviours or behaviour patterns. The
best that we can do in our attempts at minute analysis of the vast complex of facts,
assertions and arguments on MH17 is likewise to refine our examination to the point where
some of the myriad possibilities are reduced to a negligible level of probability. At least
we can probably set aside altogether that Russians deliberately destroyed an airliner. Except
of course if they were as wicked and clever as Mossad they could have set up the Ukrainians
to appear to be trying to false flag the Russians (and did you know Osama bin Laden hired
Indians for 9/11 to cover his tracks?)..... Sorry, I lost you again. What does drug taking
have to do with MH17 shootdown?
But your supporter, Avery, makes a wrong assumption and then draws conclusions from it. I
never read that Putin's plane was supposed to overfly the Separatists' controlled conflict
zone. The claim of some Russians was that Putin's plane was supposed to fly
in the
vicinity
of the conflict zone around the same time. There is no doubt that many in the
West would gladly take credit for a Putin's "accidental end", but I never found this theory
of the Russian yellow press for the MH17 shoot-down plausible.
Yet, as a final comment on this topic I would like to explore the possibility that the
separatists, that is the Russians, shot down this plane. As stated before, there is almost no
chance that untrained separatists would have been able to operate a BUK without Russian help
and shoot down a plane at such high altitude. I have actually once in my life worked on an
old Russian military radar and it was definitely not user-friendly, although it was amazingly
sturdy and reliable (it was a surveillance, that is a rotating, radar not a targeting radar).
There is a small possibility that the Separatists could have assembled an impromptu radar
crew from the civilians who did national service in air defense, but this is quite a remote
possibility.
Also, there are some Uki claims and counter claims that the Separatists had captured a BUK
battery, but such claim is a bit strange because the first duty of an officer is to damage
vital equipment before surrender.
Therefore, the key scenario of a rebel shoot-down is that BUK came from Russia, with a
Russian crew and was returned to Russia after (what the Uki intelligence claims). How would a
professional Russian AA crew be able to mistake a civilian airliner at a high altitude for a
military transport plane which can never reach such altitude is difficult to understand. 20
years ago when the Russian military were in disarray – maybe, now – hard to
imagine. Also, where are the US satellite images of this movement?
Finally, why would the US and UK keep any evidence of the Russian guilt? In international
politics this is not unusual – one keeps one's aces to deliver them at a most opportune
moment, when they can have maximum effect. The West has convinced 90% of its own population
through fact-free propaganda, that is through semi-mad MSM screaming, so any evidence kept
secret would be useful only for the rest of the world: BRICS etc, to badly embarrass Russia
in front of its current trading partners.
As the US intelligence professionals have written in their open letter – it is
impossible that US has no SIGINT/ELINT and satellite intelligence from Ukraine, so where is
it?
Therefore, the zero US evidence on MH17 can mean only one of two things:
1) either they are waiting for the best moment to put in the public domain, or
2) this evidence implicates the wrong side – their own side.
Thus, if the US presents no evidence on the activity of targeting radars within another year
or so then it becomes highly likely that this evidence is not opportune.
Surface to air missiles don't target a cockpit with bullet holes, they target the engines
(heat) and cause massive, immediate catastrophic damage with shrapnel and with the force of
the explosion. Not the kind of damage where passengers have time to put on oxygen masks as
they did in MH17.
The only ones that could have shot down MH17 with air to air machine gun bullets were the
Ukrainian Air force, (with or without the coordination of Kolomoisky's mercs operating in the
theater).
The bullet holes tell the whole story. All the rest is lies and subterfuge, but it's
amazing to see the width and breath of the power of the Zio/anglo/banksters as they compel
all the western governments to lie in the service of their agenda. Just like they did with
their lies about Saddam's WMD.
All military and weapons experts who look at those pictures know exactly what they're
looking at.
All the rest are imposed lies from diplomats and war mongers
Here is Victoria Nuland's sister in law
Kimberly Ellen Kagan (born 1972) is an American military historian. She heads the
Institute for the Study of War and has taught at West Point, Yale, Georgetown University, and
American University. Kagan has published in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The
Weekly Standard and elsewhere.[1] She supported the surge in Iraq and has since advocated for
an expanded and restructured American military campaign in Afghanistan.[2] In 2009 she served
on Afghanistan commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal's strategic assessment team.[2]
This is what Wiki says about her Institute for the Study of War :
The Institute for the Study of War (ISW) is a think tank founded in 2007 by Kimberly
Kagan. ISW describes itself as a non-partisan think tank providing research and analysis
regarding issues of defense and foreign affairs, but has been described by others as "a
hawkish Washington" group[1] favoring an "aggressive foreign policy".[2] Though it had
produced reports on the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, "focusing on military operations, enemy
threats, and political trends in diverse conflict zones",[3] it first gained widespread
public attention in the aftermath of the Elizabeth O'Bagy scandal in which it was involved.
The non-profit organization is supported by grants and contributions from large defense
contractors,[2] including Raytheon, General Dynamics, DynCorp and others.[4] It is
headquartered in Washington, D.C.[5]
@Wizard
of Oz
Good points but slightly off target for the most part. What I pointed out was that
a state actor not controlled by an Idi Amin would calculate the potential pluses and minuses
consistently with the calculation that Russia - equally - wouldn't have brought down the
airliner with a view to blaming the Ukrainian air force.
Here the calculation would have to have been that Russia could be blamed for providing the
means by which the rebels (with or without attached Russians) caused an appalling disaster by
mistake. Not enough in that surely as some of your examples of the unpunished serve to
show.
And your examples of the (eventually) caught out but unpunished are from technologically
more primitive times (and when there were e.g. Cold War reasons for things remaining
obscured).
Kolomoisky I have already indicated could be more promising to investigate. Not a state
actor so little can be presumed.
Generally, the technological advances alone since the Tonkin Gulf lies would be enough to
make any rational calculation include the likelihood of recordings of just about anything you
can imagine and a post Cold War Wikileaks inspired whistleblower as well.
Libya, Iraq etc are not comparable although you are indeed right in saying they are
unpunished follies, crimes or misjudgments. But the calculations involved were not in the
same category as the one I posited. OK, we can analyze this in the short run, if you like.
The problem with that is that, right now, we don't know who did it. At least not in a public
and politically relevant way. I'd be willing to place a small bet that it was the Kiev junta,
possibly at the suggestion of some neocon maniacs. Kolomoiski's Nazi stormtroopers would be
second. But we don't know for sure. We are not likely to know until either the US, Russia, or
some other power releases the relevant satellite and/or coms intelligence. This is a problem
for your argument.
Much of the advantage to blaming Russia happened. MH 17 appeared to be quite useful to the
US in galvanizing Euro support for our policy. The disadvantage to getting caught out has not
happened, to anyone. It may not happen for years more. Both Russia and the US presumably know
what happened. Therefore, one or both of them is/are holding information adverse to their
adversary because they see an advantage in it. I don't see any possibility that the
information is neutral. It was separatists, the Kiev junta, or a warlord.
If the info is adverse to Russia, why is the US holding it? Our strategy is
propaganda-centric in this conflict. Even I could be convinced that Russia did it by actual
evidence, and this would change my view of the conflict. There must be plenty of people not
buying the US line who would buy it with evidence. I doubt, for example, that any of the
European governments buy our/their own BS on the Ukraine. It would be highly useful to the US
if Russia actually was violently threatening and was perceived to be so by non-morons.
If the info is adverse to the US, it is easy to see why Russia would hold it. It is
valuable to us to be seen, at least domestically, to be both the good guys and the winners.
When Kennedy was offered utter defeat in the Cuban missile crisis in exchange for appearing
to win, he jumped at it. The Russians either are getting or believe they will be getting
something for not telling.
This theory also explains a lot of the strangeness which occurred right after the downing.
Our side actively prevented any investigation from occurring and excluded Russia from the
"investigation" which did occur. Russia signaled that they were holding aces pretty promptly
after the downing. Pretty soon thereafter, the controlled media lost interest in the whole
thing and now only refers to it in passing.
At best, it was Kolomoiski. More likely, it was the Kiev junta. Least likely is an
accident by the separatists. The behavior of the principals just doesn't make sense to me on
the theory that the separatists did it and everyone knows. Unless, of course, there was some
deal made (very quickly) by the US not to tell in exchange for something, and everything
since is theater. But who made the deal on our side? State is full of retards these days. And
it is all just so much not our style.
@gruff
What's missing in your analysis is a motive. Why would the Ukrainians or the CIA or whoever
take the gigantic risk of being caught falseflagging in such a despicable manner?
Let's say the Ukes did it. What have they gained? Responsibility is still being disputed
by many, so it hasn't been unequivocally been pinned on the Russians. And there was no
massive international swing against Russia in the aftermath, nor a sudden large Uke assault
to take advantage of the confusion. Months later, the whole situation is still a quagmire,
only now with a frosting of Dutch corpses.
There is no answer to
cui bono
here. It makes no sense for the Ukes, or the
Russians, to have shot down MH17. It looks like a stupid mistake, therefore most likely the
rebels were responsible.
The guy who pressed the button is probably already dead. Because it is not a gigantic
risk. If caught, they would just brazen it out. They control the dominant media. They would
blow smoke. They would have their lackies go on TV and repeat a constantly shifting barrage
of lies. They would accuse Putin of framing them. They would have someone, somewhere in the
world stir up a "crisis" and point the media at it.
How often do you hear about the USS Liberty? They brazened that one out just fine. The
official story of Osama bin Laden's death is obvious BS. They've brazened that out just fine,
too. The government tells great whopping obvious lies all the time and gets away with it.
If brazening it out failed (fat chance), they would offer up a scapegoat. The scapegoat
would have been chosen beforehand, would have been peripherally involved in the plan, and the
bad guys would either have something on him to threaten him with to keep him quiet or they
would Jack Ruby him.
It's implausible, you say. But in the hypothetical where the US planned and executed this,
we are talking about people who are willing and able to slaughter hundreds of innocents to
forward their plans. That they are willing to slaughter one more is not the least bit
implausible.
There is no answer to cui bono here. It makes no sense for the Ukes, or the Russians,
to have shot down MH17.
Are you insensate? The shoot-down of MH 17 has been extremely useful to the US. We don't
need to engage in speculative fantasies about who might have thought what about cui bono. We
*know* the US and the Kiev junta bono-ed.
Some new information about malaysian airliner MH-17 crash.
After 12 months of the investigation we have no even one Ukrainian eyewitness who had seen
the smoky trail of a launched missile "Buck" in heaven although such launching may be heard
from 5 miles and may be seen from 20 miles!
Journalists from several television stations conducted a survey of residents of several
villages in the crash site. Next day after crash the correspondent BBC Olga Ivshyna visited
the crash area and took interview from local dwellers. And a lot of them saw the military
airplane near passenger airliner before the crash. Many residents saw the plane falling, but
no one witness saw the smoky trail of a rocket "Buk" launched, although the day was a little
cloudy!
And if there is no even one confirmation of the missile launching from the Earth, from local
dwellers eyewitnesses – the version about the destruction of the airliner from missile
"Buk" – crumbles to dust. Also we have the statement made by military representatives
of Russia next day after catastrophe, which discovered the warplane near Boeing by radar on
the day of the crash.
President USA Mr. Barack Obama promised all last year to publish the photos from American
military satellite where we can see the situation. But his promise still is not performed!
One unknown American specialist has sent such the photo from American satellite to Moscow
last year. We can see on this photo the military jet launching the militant rocket into the
passenger airliner.
One mechanics from Ukrainian military airport Evgeniy Agapkin arrived in Moskov on
December 2014 and he told the next story. This story was published in Russian newspaper
"Komsomolskaya Pravda". Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshenko lifted in military-plane SU-24
from airdrome under Dnepropetrovsk city 17 July 2014 year and launched the rocket into the
passenger airliner MH-17. When Vladislav returned to airdrome and left cabine of airplane he
has said: "It was wrong airplane!" President Ukraine Peter Poroshenko has awarded pilot
Voloshenko on 19 July 2014 with medal "for the courage" for killing euro-passengers in
euro-airplane If Ukraine is not guilty then why Ukrainian artillery was shooting all the time
the area crash in order to prevent investigation???
Why Ukrainian artillery could not be silent in July and August 2014 when commissions of
air-specialists attempted to reach the crash place?
This idea about paint transmission via explosion of the warhead is probably fake: the rocket was to far for any paint transmission.
Also the denail that it can be a fighter jet is inconvinsing. I remeber the article that mentioned
the existence of Israeli air-to-air rocket with similar shape off fragments.
The theory that Russia smuggled in a single component of the BUK system, shot down MH17 with it, and then
smuggled it back out again (despite all the eyes of USA, German, Polish and Ukrainian
intelligence services, who have their agent networks in the area) – is frankly crazy and makes no sense.
Both persons who were interviewed are very suspect:
Any person who mentions even skeptically about the version of events that Valentin Nalyvaichenko
pursue, other than a definite disproval of any possibility that this version can be true, is a
complete idiot. In case of MH17 any such person is simply imbecile.
Anybody who claims " I'm 100 percent convinced that someone from the Russian army has pushed the
button." is stooge of the forces that want to implicate Russia. Because the question of "cue bono"
should be answered first. How one can be 100% convinced in the case were powerful forces
want a particular conclusion, no matter what is the evidence.
The question from whom those two guys get money for living also deserves to be answered. "Up to last year Max van der Werff
earned a living as a corporate investigator for a German company. He now sells electric bikes to
German delivery services for a Dutch company." sounds somewhat suspicious. The same is
true for "Marcel van den Berg is an independent IT specialist. He advises his clients in the field
of cloud computing and server virtualization." -- it is difficult to make living in thsi fied unles
you are very very good or have very very good connections. Almost impossible. So the question
of "alternative source of income" is a valid one for both.
Notable quotes:
"... I immediately realised: MH17 is used to frame Russia as an inhumane regime which shoots down civilian aircraft without a thought. And as it took longer for evidence to come out, my curiosity grew. ..."
"... MAX: I was accused by some Dutch journalist of being a Kremlin Troll. ..."
"... MAX: I have explained it on my blog. I dedicated an article to it, 'Why I'm a Troll.' ..."
"... In addition, Malaysia Airlines was so naive to fly over the area without verifying if it was still safe to do so. On the question if the Dutch state is to be blamed, I'm not sure. There were airliners that had stopped flying over the area, perhaps because they were indirectly warned by intelligence services. ..."
"... MAX: Airplanes shouldn't have been allowed to fly over the area. You can blame Ukraine for that. But until now I haven't seen any evidence the weapon that took down MH17 came from Russia. Such evidence was not presented by JIT, in fact by no one. At the same time I don't exclude the possibility. It is still open to me. ..."
"... MAX: It has most likely been an accident. But if MH17 was taken down to put the blame on another, then the guilty party must have been Ukraine, or a faction of the private army of Igor Kolomoisky, the Ukrainian oligarch. But that's a hypothesis. There is no proof. ..."
"... Valentin Nalyvaichenko, former head of the Ukrainian secret service, SBU, claimed MH17 was shot down intentionally. The Russians planned to bring down one of their own Aeroflot planes, so that they could blame the Ukrainians and would have a justification to invade Ukraine. But the Russians screwed up their own false flag by hitting the wrong plane. ..."
"... This story of Nalyvaichenko is so exotic that it makes me laugh out loud. ..."
"... MAX: One month before MH17 was taken down, Elena Kolenkina, widow of rebel leader Motorola, reported that a Ukrainian fighter jet hid behind a passenger plane. According to her, this happened with the intention to trick the separatists into hitting a passenger plane, so that Kiev could use this in its propaganda war against the separatists. ..."
"... But this shield theory makes perfect sense. Imagine there are no civil aircraft in the area. Then the people of the air defence do not need to take into account something they see flying could be an airliner. Because they know for sure: 'Everything that flies is military.' So imagine there are civilian aircraft flying over the area. Then you'll have a factor of uncertainty. The air defence crew will have to think twice before they start shooting at every object they see flying. 'Is it civil or is it military? If we doubt, let's not shoot.' In this sense, Ukraine has used passenger aircraft as a shield. They consciously haven taken the decision not to close the airspace. ..."
"... MAX: Ukraine had two other motives to keep its entire airspace open. First of all: The traffic rights amounted to a few thousand euros per airliner. Secondly, they just didn't want to admit that they lost control of the territory. It would have been a disgrace. ..."
"... MARCEL: 100 percent. The damage to the plane could not have been caused by anything other than a BUK rocket. If MH17 had been hit by an air-to-air missile, fired from a fighter jet, we would have known. Almost all air-to-air missiles contain 'rods', a kind of metal strips like bullets. They leave a clear fingerprint, a certain kind of holes not found on MH17. ..."
"... The JIT has also found parts of a BUK rocket in the plane wreck. Then some might argue they could have been planted there. But the investigators found that the paint on the hull of the plane corresponded to the paint on the BUK particles. ..."
"... MAX: That sure was a remarkable press conference of the ministry. Because not only weren't there any aircrafts to be seen on the displayed images, there was no rocket either. Mind you: at the press conference of July 21, 2014 the Russians showed radar images with something that looked like an SU-25. So last year they debunked their own 2014 story. What were they thinking? They made a complete fool of themselves. The information management of the Russians, as far as there is any, is just worthless. ..."
"... Member of parliament Pieter Omtzigt revealed earlier this year that DSB mistook the autopsy report of the pilot for the autopsy report of the reserve pilot, and vice versa. ..."
"... MAX: That's a spectacular mistake. In each airliner you have a pilot, a co-pilot and a spare crew. Halfway during the flight, the reserve pilot goes into the cockpit, accompanied by the reserve co-pilot. So this is essential: the pilot and co-pilot were both in the cockpit, but not the reserve-pilot and the reserve co-pilot. And thus, if you perform an autopsy on the reserve pilot, who was not in the cockpit, it should have been impossible to find any particles in his body. ..."
"... MAX: I have never defended the fighter jet scenario. It has always been an option, like is was for JIT until last year. But probably it was a BUK. Although I find it remarkable that JIT still has not made clear what type of BUK they think was used. ..."
"... MAX: Not only did JIT not reveal the exact weapon. The exact coordinates of the BUK-launcher have not been mentioned either. But anyway, the fact that they didn't say 'It was the 9M38M1' indicates they think this is not the weapon that was used. Can you follow that logic? ..."
"... MAX: Almaz-Antey has done an experiment with a BUK 9M38M1 . They detonated that BUK on a plane that was on the ground. The plane then ended up loaded with butterfly-shaped fragments. Why is it so few fragments have been found in and around the wreckage of MH17? There might be a good explanation for this. But why has nobody taken this into the discussion? It is a relevant question. ..."
"... MAX: The bodies of the deceased have been transported in refrigerated trains from Torez to Charkov. Who knows what happened along the way. ..."
"... MAX: It's for certain no rocket was fired from Zaroshchenske. Because I spoke to so many people and nobody there saw anything. ..."
"... MAX: No. That's not what they say. The only thing they do say is: 'There was a BUK unit of the Ukrainian army in Zaroshchenske.' They never said, 'They fired from that location.' See their press conference of 21 July 2014. ..."
"... In the vicinity of Pervomais'ke it's easy for journalists to get any story they want. 'Here you have a crate of beer, a bottle of vodka and a hundred dollars. Now please tell me this and that.' People living there are inclined do that. I may be exaggerating, but I'm sure things like that really happen. ..."
"... The above interview was originally published in Dutch on Novini.nl . The original article is much longer, and delves into the propaganda war surrounding MH17, the dubious role of Ukraine's SBU in the investigation, the radar and satellite data, the geopolitical shadow play of the Dutch government - and the diminishing possibility of bringing suspects to justice. Only one paragraph has been added to the original article for reasons of clarification. ..."
Up to last year Max van der Werff earned a living as a corporate investigator for a German company.
He now sells electric bikes to German delivery services for a Dutch company. Marcel van den Berg
is an independent IT specialist. He advises his clients in the field of cloud computing and server
virtualization.
Both men provide a blog, Max van der Werff:
Kremlintroll (formerly:
May 7 ) and Marcel
van den Berg: What happened to
flight MH17? Max van der Werff
went to Donbass twice to
investigate the crime scene. He speaks and reads Russian, but not well enough to properly understand
everything published on the internet about MH17. Both researchers are in contact with Russians and
Ukrainians who help translate.
Their names may be non-existent in the Dutch newspaper columns and in the news programmes on radio
and television; but the efforts the two MH17 experts have put in their research are valued by various
relevant parties. Like members of the Dutch parliament, as well as the detectives of Joint Investigation
Team (JIT), and last but not least family members of the 298 victims (most of them Dutch) of this
terrible disaster, which took place in Ukraine on 17 July 2014, when flight MH17 of Malaysia Airlines,
going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot from the sky.
Max and Marcel. How did you get interested in MH17?
MARCEL: I've been an aircraft spotter for most of my life. Whenever an accident occurs with a
plane, I'm interested to determine the root cause. I found it strange that in the case of MH17 it
took so long before the investigation started. Even when it had become clear to everyone the crash
site was safe, it took some time before investigators visited it. I started blogging in September
2014. My knowledge of air traffic control and radars helped me in my research on MH17.
MAX: I grew up on the edge of the Iron Curtain. My father worked at a NATO airbase in Germany.
This is how I got interested in the Soviet Union and geopolitics. When NATO began bombing former
Yugoslavia in 1999, I quickly made the analysis: 'This is only just the beginning. It's a tryout
to create problems for Russia.' I foresaw that Georgia and Ukraine would follow.
The story of MH17 is very much connected to the geopolitical conflict that is taking place there.
The MH17 disaster would not have occurred if East and West had chosen to reach an agreement on Ukraine
instead of seeking a confrontation. I immediately realised: MH17 is used to frame Russia as an
inhumane regime which shoots down civilian aircraft without a thought. And as it took longer for
evidence to come out, my curiosity grew.
Are there politicians, journalists, official researchers and relatives following your research?
MARCEL: I do no keep a record of that. I'm not very interested to know. In any case on Twitter
I have a member of parliament following me, Pieter Omtzigt of the CDA, and a journalist, Jeroen Akkermans
of RTL.
MAX: These two are following me on Twitter as well. And the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
And relatives of the deceased?
MARCEL: I speak occasionally with some of them, including Thomas Schansman, who wrote a letter
to Putin, Poroshenko and Kerry.
MAX: I met with some of them, but I never contacted them myself.
MARCEL: Nor do I. I came in contact with some of them after they had asked me to give a presentation.
Max, some detectives of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), which leads the criminal investigation,
have visited you several times.
MAX: Yes. The first time they came to pick up items from the Boeing, which I had received from
people living near the crash site. I also was interviewed by JIT detectives three times and I handed
over some data they asked for. It turned out that they had read my blog and that of Marcel very well.
And they asked super-detailed questions.
Marcel, have you been in contact with JIT or Dutch Safety Board (DSB)?
MARCEL: I've contacted DSB several times. But to all my questions I received the same answer:
'If it's not in the report, we cannot say anything about it.' They have cited in their report from
a page on my website though.
Could we say that the two of you have a better understanding of MH17 than all journalists put
together?
MAX: Each of us knows more about MH17 than all journalists combined.
MARCEL: Certainly so.
MAX: Marcel has more sense of technical issues like radar information. I have a blind spot for
that. And his blog is fantastic. It's the MH17 file.
MARCEL: I'm not a radar expert, but I know one that I sometimes consult. Max has visited the crash
site, and the area around it, and has spoken to people there. I lack that kind of experience.
Max, you have named your blog 'Kremlin Troll'. Why?
MAX: I was accused by some Dutch journalist of being a Kremlin Troll.
So then you thought: I'll use it as anom de guerre?
MAX: I have explained it on my blog. I dedicated an article to it,
'Why I'm a Troll.'
There have been two official investigations. The one from Dutch Safety Board (DSB) into the
technical cause of the crash has been completed. The
main conclusions are: MH17 was hit by a BUK rocket, and Ukraine should have closed its airspace
in the Donbass region.
The second investigation, the criminal investigation, of Joint Investigation Team (JIT), aimed
at identitying the suspects, is still ongoing. The
preliminary
conclusions are: It was a BUK, launched from rebel held area, and the installation used for this
purpose was delivered by Russia and was transported back to Russia after the disaster.
Max and Marcel, who do you think are responsible for the downing of MH17?
MARCEL: I'm 100 percent convinced that someone from the Russian army has pushed the button. But
Ukraine bears responsibility too,
for not having closed its airspace . A few days before the disaster, an Antonov transport plane
was shot at 6500 meters height. And there were also helicopters taken down.
In addition, Malaysia Airlines was so naive to fly over the area without verifying if it was
still safe to do so. On the question if the Dutch state is to be blamed, I'm not sure. There were
airliners that had stopped flying over the area, perhaps because they were indirectly warned by intelligence
services.
MAX: Airplanes shouldn't have been allowed to fly over the area. You can blame Ukraine for
that. But until now I haven't seen any evidence the weapon that took down MH17 came from Russia.
Such evidence was not presented by JIT, in fact by no one. At the same time I don't exclude the possibility.
It is still open to me.
I'm curious why you think differently about the alleged Russian involvement. But first let's
presume, theoretically, there are two possibilities: MH17 was taken down either by accident or intentionally.
If it happened intentionally, then the question is:qui bono? Is there a party
that benefited or could have benefited from the disaster?
MARCEL: I do not see a motive. Using my imagination, for sure I could come up with the wildest
scenarios. But I'm not a conspiracy thinker. I prefer to stick to the facts.
MAX: It has most likely been an accident. But if MH17 was taken down to put the blame on another,
then the guilty party must have been Ukraine, or a faction of the private army of Igor Kolomoisky,
the Ukrainian oligarch. But that's a hypothesis. There is no proof.
Valentin Nalyvaichenko, former head of the Ukrainian secret service, SBU,
claimed MH17 was shot down intentionally. The Russians planned to bring down one of their own
Aeroflot planes, so that they could blame the Ukrainians and would have a justification to invade
Ukraine. But the Russians screwed up their own false flag by hitting the wrong plane.
This story of Nalyvaichenko is so exotic that it makes me laugh out loud.
This Nalyvaichenko is also
suspected of involvement in the theft of the paintings from the Dutch Westfries Museum. And the
SBU, led by him,
tortures people . It's beyond me the Dutch government is doing business with these kind of people
and parties.
You do not believe that MH17 was shot down intentionally?
MARCEL: To me that seems out of the question.
MAX: Not to me.
If MH17 was hit by accident, could it be it was Ukraine that pushed the button?
There's this theory the Ukrainians tried to bring down Putin's presidential aircraft, that was
to fly over the same area around the time MH17 was brought down.
MARCEL: That's nonsense, because Putin's plane just wasn't there. I have this
screen dump from Flightradar . On that you can clearly see: Putin's plane flew over Warsaw, not
eastern Ukraine. Even Russia Today
indicated
that Putin had not flown over Ukraine for months.
MAX: There's more to the story. That day Putin came from Brazil, where he had attended a conference
of BRICS countries.
He was to fly to a conference in Rostov , southern Russia. His plane and MH17 crossed each other
at Warsaw, with half an hour difference. But instead of flying to Rostov via Warsaw, over eastern
Ukraine, as planned, Putin decided to refrain from the conference in Rostov and flew directly to
Moscow.
MARCEL: I think it's a waste of time to pay attention to these kinds of stories. The MH17 was
a Boeing 777. It looks very different from Putin's Ilyushin 96. The colour scheme is completely different,
the 777 has two engines, the Ilyushin four engines.
So I can imagine that a fighter pilot flying 10 miles from Putin's aircraft, with the aim to take
it down, mistook MH17 for Putin's plane. But just the same, I think it's an unlikely story. The perpetrators
would have been tipped off in a timely manner that Putin's Ilyushin 96 took a different route.
If the separatists did it, what about the theory that they shot at Ukrainian fighter jets using
MH17 as a shield?
MARCEL: That's out of the question. From what I understand the radar of a BUK Telar is of high
precision. It's perfectly able to distinguish a Boeing 777 from a fighter jet flying closeby. Fighter
jet pilots probably knew that and would not take the risk either.
Also, there are no reports by for example airline pilots that their aircraft was being chased
by Ukraine fighter aircrafts. The TCAS system in the cockpit is able to detect aircrafts flying close
by.
Many eyewitnesses say they saw jets just before MH17 came down.
MARCEL: I have no doubt that they were there. There are indeed
many eyewitnesses who speak of it.
MAX: One month before MH17 was taken down, Elena Kolenkina, widow of rebel leader Motorola,
reported that a Ukrainian
fighter jet hid behind a passenger plane. According to her, this happened with the intention to trick
the separatists into hitting a passenger plane, so that Kiev could use this in its propaganda war
against the separatists.
I have interviewed witnesses who claimed
they have seen SU-25s. But these are jets built to destroy ground targets, a sort of anti-tank weapons.
They usually fly very low, to prevent them from coming within reach of the radar and air defence.
But this shield theory makes perfect sense. Imagine there are no civil aircraft in the area.
Then the people of the air defence do not need to take into account something they see flying could
be an airliner. Because they know for sure: 'Everything that flies is military.' So imagine there
are civilian aircraft flying over the area. Then you'll have a factor of uncertainty. The air defence
crew will have to think twice before they start shooting at every object they see flying. 'Is it
civil or is it military? If we doubt, let's not shoot.' In this sense, Ukraine has used passenger
aircraft as a shield. They consciously haven taken the decision not to close the airspace.
MARCEL: Yes, I think so too. They have left the airspace open, not to create a physical shield
for fighter jets, but to prevent the separatists from getting trigger happy.
It's very possible that an Ilyushin 76 or an Antonov, a transport plane, has flown close to MH17.
I do not exclude that possibility. It's a fact that Ukrainian troops were trapped between the border
with Russia and the area in Donbas controlled by separatists. Two days before the MH17 disaster there
was this
dramatic phone call from a soldier with a Ukrainian TV station who said, 'We're stuck here. We
have no food and drink anymore. We are being shot at from all sides. And we receive no help at all.'
And so it's quite possible that, alarmed by this distress call, the Ukraine military decided to send
a transport plane to drop supplies.
Both Russia and Ukraine say: 'There was no other plane on the radar.' But suppose they are lying,
and that there was another plane on the radar.' Then both Ukraine and Russia would benefit from not
making this public. Because if it became clear to the investigators there was another plane, that
could be interpreted as a motive for both parties to have pulled the trigger.
So it could very well be that an Ilyushin or Antonov used MH17 as a shield. The pilot might have
thought: 'As long as I keep close to this airliner, the air defence of the separatists will not shoot
at us.'
MAX: Ukraine had two other motives to keep its entire airspace open. First of all: The traffic
rights amounted to a few thousand euros per airliner. Secondly, they just didn't want to admit that
they lost control of the territory. It would have been a disgrace.
The JIT has investigated the possibility that MH17 was taken down by another aircraft. They
now have excluded that possibility. You too?
MARCEL: 100 percent. The damage to the plane could not have been caused by anything other
than a BUK rocket. If MH17 had been hit by an air-to-air missile, fired from a fighter jet, we would
have known. Almost all air-to-air missiles contain 'rods', a kind of metal strips like bullets. They
leave a clear fingerprint, a certain kind of holes not found on MH17.
The JIT has also found parts of a BUK rocket in the plane wreck. Then some might argue they
could have been planted there. But the investigators found that the paint on the hull of the plane
corresponded to the paint on the BUK particles.
MAX: I still do not want to exclude the possibility MH17 was taken down by another plane. But
there is no serious party that defends such a scenario.
A Canadian investigator of OSCE was one of the first foreigners who visited the crash site.
He declared the holes in
the fuselage looked like the holes of machine gun fire.
MAX: Michael Bociurkiw spoke out of turn. It seems he didn't speak on behalf of OSCE.
MARCEL: Everyone who's not a specialist would initially say that those holes in the cockpit look
like they've been caused by something like a board gun. One has to be a specialist to know what the
damage caused by a BUK looks like.
MARCEL: Last year the Russian Ministry of Defence
firmly declared that there
were no aircrafts flying close to MH17 that could have been responsible for its destruction.
MAX: That sure was a remarkable press conference of the ministry. Because not only weren't
there any aircrafts to be seen on the displayed images, there was no rocket either. Mind you: at
the press conference of July 21, 2014 the Russians
showed radar images with
something that looked like an SU-25. So last year they debunked their own 2014 story. What were they
thinking? They made a complete fool of themselves. The information management of the Russians, as
far as there is any, is just worthless.
What particles have been found in the physical remains of the pilots?
MARCEL: The JIT and DSB have found two butterfly-shaped particles in the body of one of the pilots.
And butterfly-shaped is unique to the BUK rocket.
Member of parliament Pieter Omtzigt
revealed earlier this year
that DSB mistook the autopsy report of the pilot for the autopsy report of the reserve pilot, and
vice versa.
MAX: That's a spectacular mistake. In each airliner you have a pilot, a co-pilot and a spare
crew. Halfway during the flight, the reserve pilot goes into the cockpit, accompanied by the reserve
co-pilot. So this is essential: the pilot and co-pilot were both in the cockpit, but not the reserve-pilot
and the reserve co-pilot. And thus, if you perform an autopsy on the reserve pilot, who was not in
the cockpit, it should have been impossible to find any particles in his body.
Why?
MAX: Only BUK particles have been found in the cockpit. Not elsewhere in the plane.
Is that right Marcel?
MARCEL: Yes, the passengers did not have any fragments.
MAX: Not even the first-class passengers in front.
Max, you said you have not yet ruled out the possibility that MH17 was hit by an air-to-air
missile from another plane. But am I correct you are inclined to think it was a ground-to air missile?
MAX: I have never defended the fighter jet scenario. It has always been an option, like is
was for JIT until last year. But probably it was a BUK. Although I find it remarkable that JIT still
has not made clear what type of BUK they think was used. They promised to disclose the exact
weapon. But they didn't. At last year's presentation they said it was a BUK of the BUK 9M38 series.
But there are two different ones: the 9M38 with the 9N314 combat head, and the one with the butterflies,
the 9M38M1 with the 9N314M combat head.
Is it important to know the type of BUK that was used?
MAX: It's very important. If the butterflies they found are real then you can exclude the 9M38,
because there are no butterflies. Then you can say without hesitation: 'It was the 9M38M1.'
MARCEL: The butterfly-less 9M38 is no longer used by Russia. Only Ukraine is still using it. This
tells us JIT has not yet excluded Ukraine as a suspect.
MAX: The 9M38 is an old type, and the Russians say that they still have it, but they do not use
it anymore. And they also say they have warned the Ukrainians that their 9M38's have passed the expiration
date. Ukraine has never been to Almaz-Altey, the Russian producer of the BUK, for an upgrade. The
Ukrainians have
modernized their BUKS, via Ukroboronprom.
MAX: I think that is very important.
MARCEL: Me too.
MAX: Not only did JIT not reveal the exact weapon. The exact coordinates of the BUK-launcher
have not been mentioned either. But anyway, the fact that they didn't say 'It was the 9M38M1' indicates
they think this is not the weapon that was used. Can you follow that logic?
MARCEL: No.
MAX: They haven't excluded the possibility that it was the 9M38, without butterfly pieces.
They say they are sure they've found butterfly pieces. But they do not conclude from this: 'It
was a 9M38M1, because it's the only BUK that contains butterfly pieces.' I think this is telling.
Either you do not trust your own proof, or you have another reason not to disclose the type of weapon.
What other reasons could there be not to be open about this?
What do you think, Marcel, why are they hiding the info about the exact type of BUK they think
was used ?
MARCEL: I do not know. One can only speculate about it. Perhaps it was a missile of a BUK the
separatists had stolen from the Ukrainian army.
MAX: That's what the German Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND)
claims . They've given no proof for it, but still it is an official publication.
MARCEL: But imagine that it was a BUK the separatists had stolen from the Ukranian army. And suppose
JIT had revealed that MH17 was hit by an outdated type of rocket originating from the Ukranian army.
That would have led to a lot of confusion, such as journalists jumping to the conclusion the Ukranian
army had taken down MH17. To prevent his from happening JIT kept silent about the exact weapon that
was used.
MAX: Almaz-Antey has done
an experiment
with a BUK 9M38M1 . They detonated that BUK on a plane that was on the ground. The plane then
ended up loaded with butterfly-shaped fragments. Why is it so few fragments have been found in and
around the wreckage of MH17? There might be a good explanation for this. But why has nobody taken
this into the discussion? It is a relevant question.
Do you have an explanation for this Marcel?
MARCEL: I was in contact with an anonymous person who knows very much about BUKs. He told me that
at the time of the explosion there's so much pressure on the fragments in the combat head, that when
they leave the head, they are so distorted that they have partially lost their butterfly shape.
I do not exclude that technical explanation, although one should be careful with anonymous sources.
They can have a hidden agenda. From this person I had the suspicion he was pro-Kiev. But I also do
no not rule out the possibility that Almaz-Antey has deliberately put some butterfly shapes in this
plane using some kind of device.
It took a long time before the investigators reached the crash site. There must have been plenty
of opportunity to remove evidence or to put it there.
MARCEL: Parts of the cockpit roof and business class have never been found. But to be able to
plant evidence, parts of the plane must have been taken away first. To me that's an unlikely scenario.
MAX: The bodies of the deceased have been transported in refrigerated trains from Torez to
Charkov. Who knows what happened along the way.
Marcel, why are you so sure MH17 was brought down with a BUK installation, delivered by Russia,
from an area controlled by separatists?
MARCEL: I'm not sure that the BUK Telar, that was photographed and filmed on its way from Russia
to Eastern Ukraine, was used to shoot down MH17. There is simply no proof for that. But we do have
two pictures of the smoke plume of the launched BUK. There are also a number of people who have shown
that they saw a rocket flying over the area. I have not heard any trustworthy story that a BUK was
launched from another location. There are zero indications for that. No pictures, no witnesses, nothing.
I took a close look at this village, Zaroshchenske ....
MAX: It's for certain no rocket was fired from Zaroshchenske. Because I spoke to so many people
and nobody there saw anything.
MARCEL: But that's what the Russians
say : Zaroshchenske.
MAX: No. That's not what they say. The only thing they do say is: 'There was a BUK unit of
the Ukrainian army in Zaroshchenske.' They never said, 'They fired from that location.'
See their press conference
of 21 July 2014.
Max, for you there is no reason to believe a BUK rocket was launched from rebel-controlled
area in Pervomais'ke?
MAX: JIT claims there are witnesses who have seen it there. But these are either anonymous or
non-anonymous witnesses. I have interviewed the non-anonymous myself, and they are telling just nonsense.
One person told four different stories, to RT, Radio Free Europe, The Daily Telegraph and to me.
In the vicinity of Pervomais'ke it's easy for journalists to get any story they want. 'Here
you have a crate of beer, a bottle of vodka and a hundred dollars. Now please tell me this and that.'
People living there are inclined do that. I may be exaggerating, but I'm sure things like that really
happen.
And something I do not understand: time and again journalists tell us their witnesses want to
remain anonymous because they fear for reprisals. Then why is it their sources do not seem to have
any problem talking to complete strangers, foreigners, and trusting them with their lives?
The above interview was originally published in Dutch on
Novini.nl
. The original article is much longer, and delves into the propaganda war surrounding MH17, the dubious
role of Ukraine's SBU in the investigation, the radar and satellite data, the geopolitical shadow
play of the Dutch government - and the diminishing possibility of bringing suspects to justice. Only
one paragraph has been added to the original article for reasons of clarification.
Eric van de Beek studied journalism at
Windesheim University in Zwolle,
and philosophy at the University of Amsterdam
. For years he worked as a journalist for the Dutch leading weekly
Elsevier . Now he mainly writes for
Holland's one and only geopolitical magazine Novini
.
"... It often seems as if multiple theories were introduced purely to make it impossible for the truth ever to be discovered, keeping everyone busy running down leads. But to my mind, Ukraine has a lot of 'the dog ate my homework' excuses – none of our aircraft were flying that day; sorry, all our primary radars were down for maintenance; gee, I don't know where those ATC records went! And the theory the Dutch Safety Board copped to – that Russia smuggled in a single component of the Buk system, shot down MH17 with it, and then smuggled it back out again – is frankly crazy and makes no sense. ..."
"... fat wankers like yourself may want to make it into the crime of the century because some Europeans suffered the consequences of the war their governments started ..."
Instead of chasing around those who criticize the United Russia administration, your time
would be better served reading about various contradictions in the Russian government's
multiple conspiracy theories about MH17.
It often seems as if multiple theories were introduced purely to make it impossible for the
truth ever to be discovered, keeping everyone busy running down leads. But to my mind,
Ukraine has a lot of 'the dog ate my homework' excuses – none of our aircraft were
flying that day; sorry, all our primary radars were down for maintenance; gee, I don't know
where those ATC records went! And the theory the Dutch Safety Board copped to – that
Russia smuggled in a single component of the Buk system, shot down MH17 with it, and then
smuggled it back out again – is frankly crazy and makes no sense.
Lulz who cares shitstain? MH-17 is a dead issue –
fat wankers like yourself may want to
make it into the crime of the century because some Europeans suffered the consequences of the
war their governments started
, but nobody else gives a damn about MH-17 or your dead
Ukrainian motherland.
The radar, according to Blok, could simply have missed the missile. The minister
compared the radar to a lighthouse, claiming that the missile could have slipped through
during its "turn" and have therefore left no trace on the Russian Utes-T air route
radar system. Blok also claimed that the radar would have been unable to register such
a relatively small object as a Buk missile.
"It is inappropriate to say that the radar station could have missed the missile",
the head of Russian Aviation Regulator Rosaviatsia, Oleg Storchevoy, said on Tuesday, commenting
on the latest Dutch claims.
Political direction: why the [radar] locator failed to see the missile that downed MH17
"The fact that something was not visible on the radar, doesn't mean that something was not
there" - noted the Minister of Security and Justice, Stephen Blok, in answering a question from
the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Representatives of the Dutch Parliament (the States
General).
The question he was asked concerned radar data provided by Russia that showed that the radars
had not detected a "Buk" missile. Bok reinforced his argument by speaking about the 360-degree
sweep of a "Utes-T" radar locator, which before the crash of flight MH17 in the sky over the Donbas
could have been sweeping in the opposite direction in the same way as does a lighthouse beam.
As the article points out, the missile could not have reached the target from the launch point
specified by the JIT in 10 seconds. And radar does not just illuminate targets, it records having
received an echo return from bouncing off something, so that as the operator you see a dot – which
they referred to as a tick – which is the accumulation of 'hits' by the radar, so that you can
distinguish a target from the innumerable random dots which result from the characteristic known
as 'scatter'. Most radars have a feature known as history recording or target trails, in which
you begin to see the contacts progress by the trail of 'hits' it leaves behind.
In any case, it is significant that the Dutch investigation team did not bother to get a radar
expert to summarize its findings in that area, but a political appointee with no experience in
that field.
Doesn't the BUK missile delivery system itself also rely on radar to locate and target any objects?
So had there been a team or unit of soldiers operating such a system in the area where the Dutch
claim they were in, then wouldn't Russian military have been able to work out the radar frequencies
the group was using and contact it?
Well, the Russians would hardly contact this group, would they? Not knowing the SBU and their
crack communications-intercept teams were listening and ready to record another admission of Russian
culpability. Over several days of observations it would be possible to identify unique Buk systems
by their operating frequencies, yes. Typically they are identified as operating in the band of
frequencies which identify them as a Buk system, and that's good enough, but it is possible to
identify one among others if you have the opportunity to match its frequencies to observation
and watch it move around, although if there are several systems, their operating frequencies will
all be close.
But the Dutch story is that this system was smuggled in just long enough to take the shot and
then quickly smuggled out again, and that it was only one launcher and not a complete system.
The radar on the launcher is highly directional, and electronic warfare systems might not pick
it up unless they were along its line of sight, whereas the emitter which is usually correlated
to the Buk (by electronic intercept) is the search radar, which is its own separate vehicle.
Russian electronic warfare did report several Buk systems active in the area – all Ukrainian,
presumably, since the Ukrainian command insisted the rebels did not have any – the day prior to
the disaster. That statement (that the rebels did not have any Buks that were captured from the
Ukrainian Army) and other realities are what force the crazy story whereby Russia supposedly smuggled
in a partial system, took the shot and ran for it. It's the only one they can make fit.
The Dutch are peddling one of the most inane tinfoil hat theories ever. If Russia smuggled in
that single component for an in and out atrocity, then why the FCUK didn't they just help the
Donbas "terrorists' fix up the system that fell into their hands that fits the same description
(i.e. one lacking a separate radar unit). Hiding a few Buk missiles in the back of a truck is
vastly easier than lugging around a whole mobile unit on a flatbed.
This is shit is the same "feed the retards some 'plausible' story" ploy as the Polonium murder
of Litvinenko. Smearing Polonium on a Moscow circuit plane is the ultimate in inanity. Let's use
an exotic murder weapon that is messy and hard to use and make sure to trace it back to ourselves.
For fuck's sake, using a hand gun with a silencer is orders of magnitude easier and less traceable
since throwing the gun in the river actually works and it will have negligible chance of being
found by the cops unless they have a witness.
Of course! – I hadn't thought the SBU would be monitoring communications between the rebels in
Donetsk and any outside supporters. My oversight. I had in mind a hypothetical situation where
the Russian military detects such a "unit", observes its activities to determine their intended
objective and then warns the "unit" that it is under surveillance.
As I've pointed out before, any emitter with such a slow scan rate as that would be useless for
air traffic control. There are radars with huge antennas and very slow scan rates, but they are
high-power emitters used for Early Warning, not for controlling fast-moving aircraft and deconflicting
a busy air picture at various altitudes. But the Dutch 'investigators' who are helping Ukraine
wash itself out of the picture hope that you are stupid.
"... Russian radar could not have failed to notice a projectile approaching Flight MH17, despite the claims by a Dutch minister, the head of Rosaviatsia says. The lack of radar marks shows nothing approached the plane from the east, despite official findings. ..."
"... "It is inappropriate to say that a radar station could miss the missile," the head of Russian aviation regulator Rosaviatsia, Oleg Storchevoy, said Tuesday, commenting on the latest Dutch claims. ..."
Russian radar could not have failed to notice a projectile approaching Flight MH17, despite
the claims by a Dutch minister, the head of Rosaviatsia says. The lack of radar marks shows nothing
approached the plane from the east, despite official findings.
Last week, the Dutch government published a series of replies by Security and Justice Minister
Stef Blok, who explained to a parliamentary commission why radar data provided by Russia did not
show any objects approaching the MH17 flight, including a Buk missile.
The radar, according to Blok, could simply miss a missile. The minister compared the radar
to a lighthouse, claiming that a missile could slip through during its "turn" and therefore leave
no trace on Russia's Utes-T air route radar system. Blok also claimed that the radar could not
register such a relatively small object as a Buk missile.
"It is inappropriate to say that a radar station could miss the missile," the head of Russian
aviation regulator Rosaviatsia, Oleg Storchevoy, said Tuesday, commenting on the latest Dutch
claims.
It sneaked in while the radar antenna was looking the other way???????
The radar, according to Blok, could simply have missed the missile. The minister
compared the radar to a lighthouse, claiming that the missile could have slipped through
during its "turn" and have therefore left no trace on the Russian Utes-T air route
radar system. Blok also claimed that the radar would have been unable to register such
a relatively small object as a Buk missile.
"It is inappropriate to say that the radar station could have missed the missile",
the head of Russian Aviation Regulator Rosaviatsia, Oleg Storchevoy, said on Tuesday, commenting
on the latest Dutch claims.
Political direction: why the [radar] locator failed to see the missile that downed MH17
"The fact that something was not visible on the radar, doesn't mean that something was not
there" - noted the Minister of Security and Justice, Stephen Blok, in answering a question from
the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Representatives of the Dutch Parliament (the States
General).
The question he was asked concerned radar data provided by Russia that showed that the radars
had not detected a "Buk" missile. Bok reinforced his argument by speaking about the 360-degree
sweep of a "Utes-T" radar locator, which before the crash of flight MH17 in the sky over the Donbas
could have been sweeping in the opposite direction in the same way as does a lighthouse beam.
"... MH17 seems to have disappeared from MSM reporting. The Dutch preliminary report was unconvincing. ..."
"... For me, the suspicious thing is that there was no mention of ELINT. Why didn't NATO or the US government simply say that "We intercepted the Buk's surveillance radar at time X and location Y; the tracking radar started emiting Z minutes before the crash and, just before the crash, it entered its CW terminal guidance mode". None of this would reveal secret capabilities - we are talking about 1960s tech. ..."
"... Perhaps, there were no ELINT/ESM assets in the area. But this was the only hot war in Europe at the time, and it is likely that both Russian and American special forces were there, if only as observers. ..."
"... Does the MH17 evidence that Russia provided, you are referring to include their satellite images? The US refused to provide their's, so is left just pointing bloody fingers as usual. I am increasingly disappointed by the collusion of the Dutch in this mess. Their investigators are traitors to their own citizen victims ..."
"... However, the WHERE, WHY and BY WHOM is an important point here, but there is little info on that, not from NATO, and not from the Ukies. All we get from these two is the claim that it was, of course, the Russians, end of story. NATO aside, by geography the Ukies would of course be an advantaged collector of such informations. ..."
"... The dutch MH17 report in large part depended on Ukrainian reports of whatever happened on the day MH17 was shot down. And natutrally, everybody who believes and trusts the Ukies in what they say happened is unwise. That is to say that the Ukies, out of self interest, lie a lot given a chance, and what they say should not be accepted as truth, certainly not without checks from, second sources, ideally own services and systems. ..."
"... If in case of MH17 it wasn't the Russians, but, say, some Ukie, the Ukies would be motivated to lie - instead of saying that the aircraft was shot down by themselves, or one of their volunteer units that would be mebarassing, well, murderous, to put it mildly. ..."
"... I would be very surprised if the US did not have naval, air and space based ELINT assets monitoring the area closely at that time. Maintaining an up to date EORBAT was a pretty high priority during the Cold War and I doubt that has changed much. ..."
"... At the end of the day, these kinds of systems are not difficult to keep track of. They are few in number, loud (ELINT systems have the advantage over radars of 1/R^2 vs 1/R^4 in signal strength) and have relatively simple waveforms. ..."
"... U.S. Modus Operandi: Whenever something big happens, the U.S. immediately comes up with a simple narrative that is accepted by the MSM and our western allies and never changes it. In the case of MH17, within a day or two, 'the rebels killed innocent civilians armed with an illegally supplied Buk from Russia'. Khan Shaykhun, same thing, 'Assad poisoned children from this airfield and is being protected by the Russians'. Come hell or high water nothing will ever change our narrative. ..."
"... The Russians, they respond with multiple theories that sometimes contradict each other within a matter of days or weeks. Is this the sign of Information Warfare or possible innocence, what would you do if you were suddenly called a baby killer? I think it is clever that we have spun a natural response to a standard tactic of 'Russian information warfare' that U.S. experts call 'deny, obfuscate, and overload'. ..."
"... It's great to have money to burn, we have tons of it to throw at consultants, think tanks, and the like. ..."
MH17 seems to have disappeared from MSM reporting. The Dutch preliminary report was unconvincing.
For me, the suspicious thing is that there was no mention of ELINT. Why didn't NATO or
the US government simply say that "We intercepted the Buk's surveillance radar at time X and location
Y; the tracking radar started emiting Z minutes before the crash and, just before the crash, it
entered its CW terminal guidance mode". None of this would reveal secret capabilities - we are
talking about 1960s tech.
Instead we get dubious ballistics and analysis of grass burns.
Perhaps, there were no ELINT/ESM assets in the area. But this was the only hot war in Europe
at the time, and it is likely that both Russian and American special forces were there, if only
as observers.
Bandit -
Does the MH17 evidence that Russia provided, you are referring to include their satellite
images? The US refused to provide their's, so is left just pointing bloody fingers as usual. I
am increasingly disappointed by the collusion of the Dutch in this mess. Their investigators are
traitors to their own citizen victims .
The Saker has a May 23 article about the SBU, the Security Service of Ukraine which, if true,
exposes that agency directive to destroy or dispose of all evidence relating to the shooting down
of MH17. Here is the link:
Buk has a certain range, and it needs a suitable radar of a certain (rather limted) range.
Also, russian and Ukie Buks use the same radar. That means that detecting a Buk radar doesn't
mean it was russians who operated it - it just means that a Buk was located. It also means that
to detect a Buk radar, one needs to be rather close.
However, the WHERE, WHY and BY WHOM is an important point here, but there is little info
on that, not from NATO, and not from the Ukies. All we get from these two is the claim that it
was, of course, the Russians, end of story. NATO aside, by geography the Ukies would of course
be an advantaged collector of such informations.
That said, they also have their own interests. And perhaps they have collected things like
ELINT or SIGINT info on the shootdown of MH17, but what they give out doesn't change the narrative
that it was Putin. Well, distrustful as I am, I have a hunch that the narrative was written well
before MH17 was shot down.
That written, SIGINT and ELINT only have so long a range and Ukraine is a large land. A SIGINT/
ELINT system in Poland or Romania, or in an aircraft collecting over the baltic may just been
too far away - out of range - to listen to or locate/find a Buk system.
The dutch MH17 report in large part depended on Ukrainian reports of whatever happened
on the day MH17 was shot down. And natutrally, everybody who believes and trusts the Ukies in
what they say happened is unwise. That is to say that the Ukies, out of self interest, lie a lot
given a chance, and what they say should not be accepted as truth, certainly not without checks
from, second sources, ideally own services and systems.
If in case of MH17 it wasn't the Russians, but, say, some Ukie, the Ukies would be motivated
to lie - instead of saying that the aircraft was shot down by themselves, or one of their volunteer
units that would be mebarassing, well, murderous, to put it mildly.
In light of that it is probable that it is perceived to be far more handy to keep up the fairy
tale that MH17 was of course shot down by the evil Russians - probably out of boredom and utter
evilness. Yes, of course, and why else?
That sort of nonsense should be kept in mind whenever hearing any Ukies statements for or over
anything - it may just be a load of self interested BS. Policy based on believing such things
would likewise be utter nonsense and unlikely to work.
Prem -
I would be very surprised if the US did not have naval, air and space based ELINT assets monitoring
the area closely at that time. Maintaining an up to date EORBAT was a pretty high priority during
the Cold War and I doubt that has changed much.
At the end of the day, these kinds of systems are not difficult to keep track of. They
are few in number, loud (ELINT systems have the advantage over radars of 1/R^2 vs 1/R^4 in signal
strength) and have relatively simple waveforms.
Patrick Armstrong wrote: "But I do not believe a Buk shot it down"
The funny thing is that even the Russians not longer claim it was a SU25 launched missile.
Since September 2016 it is the Russian versin too that a BUK hit the MH17, hower, a Ukrainian.
:-)
The piss poor Russian PR performance pointed IMHO to the more likely scenario that their guys
screwed up and Russia played for time with stupid stunts like the press conference where a poor
Russian general had to sell the redar echo of debis as SU25 and the sudden change of SU specifications
on the home page of the producer. :-)
If it had been a Ukranian BUK, the Russians could have fried the Ukrainians very easily and
would not have missed this opportunity.
And last but not least: On the German mil blog "Augen gerade aus", there were extremyl good
discussions and people there - air force officers with deep konwledge of Russian AA systems and
planes - came very earlty to the conclusion that it was a BUK most likely.
sorry ulenspiegel... too many signs point to ukraines involvement.. why no minutes from air control
and etc. etc. etc.???
Ulenspiegel -
Sorry, james, the Russians promoted the story of Ukrainian SU25, "supported" by stupid lies of
a Russian general at a press conference, and with changing technical specifications on the SU25
home page...
September 2016 they changed it to BUK. "Great" performance.
"The piss poor Russian PR performance pointed IMHO to the more likely scenario that their guys
screwed up"
From a PR perspective, it would have been much cleaner had they just said, 'rebels acquired a
BUK from Ukrainian military stockpiles, they have been under attack by the UkAf and mistook a
passenger jet for a bomber since it would be insane to direct air traffic to a war zone'.
The problem is that since the Russians probably didn't know what actually happened, they were
genuinely caught flat footed and exploring the issue. Having watched how they have managed press
releases in Syria I have concluded that they do not do PR management. Contrary to what many state,
the Russians totally suck at Information Warfare.
I am not commenting on what actually did happen with MH17 but taking the opportunity to comment
on U.S. vs Russian Information Warfare . We have dozens of NGO's that will issue press
releases stating 'Assad, Russia, Iran guilty of war crimes, ranked #1 in executions, corruption,
#144 in the Democracy index'. Russia doesn't have anything like our NGO's. Here is one
reference that I book marked because I found it so amusingly obvious, 'Physicians for human rights',
a U.S. based NGO
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/moscow-politely-calls-bs-after-us-accuses-assad-barrel-bombing-maternity-wards-fun/ri19984
I couldn't find the source of their funding but I'll bet someone a steak dinner that govt
money would be in that trail.
The other avenue of U.S. Information Warfare is when the FBI / CIA give anonymous leaks or
otherwise feed stories to the NYT / WaPo . Now the Russian govt does have access to RT
but we still have a much more influential press corp. We also have more power in charting course
in investigations that are supposed to be neutral. We killed OPCW investigations in Syria and
the one for MH17 was dubious.
Tel said...
What always confused me about MH17 is that some of the wrecked panels clearly had holes punching
BOTH inwards and ALSO outwards on the same plate. Plenty of photos on the Internet can be found
showing at least some of the holes are nice and neat and ROUND which the Dutch report ignored,
but possibly could be a machine gun. BUC fragments are not round and would never leave a neat
round hole.
Also, they never released the full cockpit recording, and they never released the air-traffic
control conversations with the aircraft (especially at the critical time when the craft changed
off their normal course to instead fly over the hot zone of rebel held territory). No aircraft
would normally fly over a war zone so the conversation around that course correction is absolutely
critical to knowing what happened that night.
Bandit -
I appreciate the contributions forum members give to this important MH17 event that the MSM has
been recently ignoring after it published so many lies and omissions in its previous articles.
I think most of us just want the truth, and the evidence to support it. Whoever is responsible,
Russia, Ukraine, or the US, needs to be revealed to the world. But, many of these types of atrocities
tend to disappear after their "newsworthy" merits are exhausted and there is more money to be
made by exploiting the Trump trend.
Much like the Kennedy assassinations, the US does everything to cover up and mislead the public,
and it takes years and the advent of the internet to get the facts more widely viewed. By that
time, the perps are either dead or Alzheimer zombies, and a new generation of citizens have more
pressing concerns than what happened some 50 years ago. But, for me, MH17 will remain current
news as long as it takes for the truth to be revealed.
VietnamVet said...
PA
The problem with the wartime information operations underway since 9/11 is that people who
should know better start believing the propaganda, the public is uninformed, corporations buy
silence and they now include Russia. Besides MH-17, Ukraine's ongoing trench war or the potential
nuclear flashpoint at Al-Tanf; there is the is the Airbus fly by wire computer control system
that is implicated in at least three crashes that killed all souls on board and Qantas Flight
72 that had a narrow escape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72
Thomas said...
"If it had been a Ukranian BUK, the Russians could have fried the Ukrainians very easily and would
not have missed this opportunity."
That is exactly what the Noveau Khans wanted so as to drag the United States into their war.
Thanks to a lazy government official's commode computer, the Russians probably knew it too (see
F U EU). Funny that Nato won't provide their proof to the public the those Russkie Rebels did
the deed. Why is that?
Chris Chuba said...
The Information War U.S. Modus Operandi: Whenever something big happens, the U.S. immediately comes up with a
simple narrative that is accepted by the MSM and our western allies and never changes it. In the
case of MH17, within a day or two, 'the rebels killed innocent civilians armed with an illegally
supplied Buk from Russia'. Khan Shaykhun, same thing, 'Assad poisoned children from this airfield
and is being protected by the Russians'. Come hell or high water nothing will ever change our
narrative.
The Russians, they respond with multiple theories that sometimes contradict each other
within a matter of days or weeks. Is this the sign of Information Warfare or possible innocence,
what would you do if you were suddenly called a baby killer? I think it is clever that we have
spun a natural response to a standard tactic of 'Russian information warfare' that U.S. experts
call 'deny, obfuscate, and overload'.
It's great to have money to burn, we have tons of it to throw at consultants, think tanks,
and the like.
"... I know a lot of people on this blog have experience in the intelligence world. I would be very interested in hearing what you think of my theory. ..."
"... intelligence sources ..."
"... So why are there so many "intelligence assessments" on important issues depending on social media "evidence"? ..."
"... four years earlier ..."
"... many of the "intelligence assessments" contain what look like hints by the authors that their reports are rubbish. ..."
I know a lot of people on this blog have experience in the intelligence world. I would be
very interested in hearing what you think of my theory.
In my career in the Canadian government I was never formally in "intelligence" but I did participate
in writing many "intelligence assessments". Facebook, Twitter and other kinds of social media didn't
much exist at that time but, even if they had, I can't imagine that we would have ever used them
as sources of evidence: social media is, to put it mildly, too easy to fake. In writing intelligence
assessments, while we did use information gathered from intelligence sources (ie secret),
probably more came from what was rather pompously called OSInt (Open Source Intelligence; in other
words, stuff you don't need a security clearance to learn). What was, however, the most important
part of creating an assessment was the long process of discussion in the group. Much talk and many
rewrites produced a consensus opinion.
A typical intelligence assessment would start with a question – what's going on with the economy,
or political leadership or whatever of Country X – and would argue a conclusion based on facts. So:
question, argument, conclusion. And usually a prediction – after all the real point of intelligence
is to attempt to reduce surprises. The intelligence assessment then made its way up the chain to
the higher ups; they may have ignored or disagreed with the conclusions but, as far as I know, the
assessment, signed off by the group that had produced it, was not tampered with: I never heard of
words being put into our mouths. The intelligence community regards tampering with an intelligence
assessment to make it look as if the authors had said something different as a very serious sin.
All of this is preparation to say that I know what an intelligence assessment is supposed to look
like and that I have seen a lot of so-called intelligence assessments coming out of Washington that
don't look like the real thing.
Intelligence is quite difficult. I like the analogy of trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle when you
don't know what the picture is supposed to be, you don't know how many pieces the puzzle has and
you're not sure that the pieces that you have are actually from the same puzzle. Let us say, for
example, that you intercept a phonecall in which the Leader of Country X is telling one of his flunkeys
to do something. Surely that's a gold standard? Well, not if the Leader knew you were listening (and
how would you know if he did?); nor if he's someone who changes his mind often. There are very few
certainties in the business and many many opportunities for getting it wrong.
So real raw intelligence data is difficult enough to evaluate; social media, on the other hand,
has so many credibility problems that it is worthless; worthless, that is, except as evidence of
itself (ie a bot campaign is evidence that somebody has taken the effort to do one). It is extremely
easy to fake: a Photoshopped picture can be posted and spread everywhere in hours; bots can create
the illusion of a conversation; phonecall recordings are easily stitched together: here are films
of Buks, here are phonecalls. (But, oddly enough, all the radars were down for maintenance that day).
It's so easy, in fact, that it's probably easier to create the fake than to prove that it is a fake.
There is no place in an intelligence assessment for "evidence" from something as unreliable as social
media.
An "intelligence assessment" that uses social media is suspect.
So why are there so many "intelligence assessments" on important issues depending on social
media "evidence"?
I first noticed social media used as evidence during the MH17 catastrophe when
Marie Harf, the then US State
Department spokesman, appealed to social media and "common sense" . She did so right after the
Russians had posted radar evidence (she hadn't "seen any of that" said she). At the time I assumed
that she was just incompetent. It was only later, when I read the "intelligence assessments" backing
up the so-called Russian influence on the US election, that I began to notice the pattern.
There are indications during the Obama Administration that the intelligence professionals were
becoming restive. Here are some examples that suggest that "intelligence assessments" were either
not being produced by the intelligence professionals or – see the last example – those that were
were then modified to please the Boss.
If one adds the reliance on social media to these indications, it seems a reasonable suspicion
that these so-called intelligence assessments are not real intelligence assessments produced by intelligence
professionals but are post facto justifications written up by people who know what the Boss wants
to hear.
We have already seen what appears to have been the first example of this with the "social media
and common sense" of MH17. And, from that day to this, not a shred of Kerry's "evidence" have we
seen. The long-awaited Dutch report was, as I said at the time, only a
modified hangout and very far from convincing .
This report is provided "as is" for informational purposes only. The Department of Homeland Security
(DHS) does not provide any warranties of any kind regarding any information contained within.
Perhaps the most ridiculous part of the
DNI report of 6 January
2017 was the space – nearly half – devoted to a rant that had been published four years earlier
about the Russian TV channel RT. What that had to do with the Russian state influencing the
2016 election was obscure. But, revealingly, the report included:
We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump's election
chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably
to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment;
NSA has moderate confidence.
In other words, DHS told us to ignore its report and the one agency in the US intelligence structure
that would actually know about hacking and would have copies of everything – the NSA – wasn't very
confident. Both reports were soon torn apart: John McAfee: "I can promise you if it looks like the
Russians did it, then I can guarantee you it was not the Russians". (
See 10:30
). Jeffrey Carr: "
Fatally flawed ". Julian Assange:
not a state actor. Even
those
who loath Putin trashed them . In any case, as we now know, the
NSA
can mimic Russians or anyone else .
In April there was another suspiciously timed "CW attack" in Syria and, blithely ignoring that
the responders
didn't wear any protective gear in what was supposed to be a Sarin attack , the Western media
machine wound up its sirens. The
intelligence assessment that was released again referred to "credible open source reporting"
and even "pro-opposition social media reports" (! – are the authors so disgusted with what they have
to write that they leave gigantic hints like that in plain sight?). Then a page of so of how Moscow
trying to "confuse" the world community. And so on. This "intelligence assessment" was taken apart
by
Theodore Postol .
So, we have strong suggestions that the intelligence professionals are being sidelined or having
their conclusions altered; we have far too much reliance of social media; is there anything else
that we can see? Yes, there is: many of the "intelligence assessments" contain what look like
hints by the authors that their reports are rubbish.
Absurdly poor quality photos (maybe they were combine harvesters!).
Including a photo of damage to the port engine intake which contradicts the conclusion of the
MH-17 report.
DHS "does not provide any warranties".
The one agency that would know has only "moderate confidence".
Irrelevant rants about RT or assumed nefarious Russian intentions.
"Pro-opposition social media reports".
There are too many of these, in fact, not to notice – not that the Western media has noticed,
of course – they rather jump out at you once you look don't they? I don't recall inserting any little
such hints into any of the intelligence assessments that I was involved in.
In conclusion, it seems that a well-founded case can be presented that:
The normal process of producing intelligence assessments was not observed in the above cases;
"Intelligence assessments" were fabricated relying on social media (one can only assume because
there was nothing else);
300 Words Better examples are found in an article that I linked:
Sep 12, 2016 – The Ukrainians Shot Down MH-17!
I highly recommend this brilliant article about how the New York Times and Washington Post have
become propaganda machines for the American Neo-Con Empire.
They rarely print corrections when caught in a lie, and even attack those speaking the truth by
implying they are foreign agents. In reality nearly all major media have become spin machines evidenced
by that article's interesting news item that I read nowhere else:
The MH-17 Case
As an example, MacFarquhar cites the case of the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over
eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, claiming "Russia pumped out a dizzying array of theories." The
Times correspondent then asserts as flat fact that "The cloud of stories helped veil the simple truth
that poorly trained insurgents had accidentally downed the plane with a missile supplied by Russia."The
Dutch Safety Board's reconstruction of where it believed the missile exploded near Malaysia Airlines
Flight 17 on July 17, 2014.
But, according to official investigations that have been underway for more than two years, MacFarquhar's
claim is not "the simple truth," as he put it. Last year's report by the Dutch Safety Board reached
no conclusion about who was responsible for shooting down the plane, killing 298 people.
Indeed, the DSB's report included a statement by Dutch intelligence (reflecting NATO's intelligence
data) that the only powerful anti-aircraft-missile systems in eastern Ukraine on that day – capable
of hitting MH-17 at 33,000 feet – were under the control of the Ukrainian military. (Though an official
document, this Dutch intelligence report has never been mentioned by The New York Times, presumably
because it conflicts with the favored Russia-did-it narrative.)
The problem with accusing the Ukrainians of having shot down MH-17 is found
in the wreckage. The type of pellet that did the damage is not found in the version of the Buk
missile in the possession of the Ukrainians. Only the newer version, owned only by the Russians,
have the type of pellet that did the damage.
Russia shot down MH-17. Russian troops are known to be in eastern Ukraine operating heavy weapons.
Russia has also come clean that regular troops have been sent to the Donbas and a lot of the artillery
fire that has been aimed at the Ukrainians has come from Russian territory.
You've swallowed a load of Putinist propaganda.
You habitually accuse the UNZ Review readers in
"swallowing Putin propaganda" when you asked to provide proofs for your cavalier Russophobic statements.
In case you have not noticed yet, UNZ Review does not publish Eliot Higgins (and other experts
in selling ladies underwear), but prefers to deal with the serious thinkers and professionals.
Better examples are found in an article that I linked:
Sep 12, 2016 - The Ukrainians Shot Down MH-17!
I highly recommend this brilliant article about how the New York Times and Washington Post have
become propaganda machines for the American Neo-Con Empire.
They rarely print corrections when caught in a lie, and even attack those speaking the truth by
implying they are foreign agents. In reality nearly all major media have become spin machines
evidenced by that article's interesting news item that I read nowhere else:
The MH-17 Case
As an example, MacFarquhar cites the case of the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over
eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, claiming "Russia pumped out a dizzying array of theories." The
Times correspondent then asserts as flat fact that "The cloud of stories helped veil the simple
truth that poorly trained insurgents had accidentally downed the plane with a missile supplied
by Russia."
The Dutch Safety Board's reconstruction of where it believed the missile exploded near
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on July 17, 2014. But, according to official investigations that have
been underway for more than two years, MacFarquhar's claim is not "the simple truth," as he put
it. Last year's report by the Dutch Safety Board reached no conclusion about who was responsible
for shooting down the plane, killing 298 people.Indeed, the DSB's report included a statement
by Dutch intelligence (reflecting NATO's intelligence data) that the only powerful anti-aircraft-missile
systems in eastern Ukraine on that day – capable of hitting MH-17 at 33,000 feet – were under
the control of the Ukrainian military. (Though an official document, this Dutch intelligence report
has never been mentioned by The New York Times, presumably because it conflicts with the favored
Russia-did-it narrative.)
NYT has been fabricating stories as long as it exists to assist USA
government engineer regime changes and colour revolutions, and wage reckless wars on the fabricated
allegations around the world, as well as white wash American war crimes. NYT is the core of the
Western black information network to spread disinformation and misinformation for the American
conquest of global full spectrum dominance via organised violence and committing crime against
humanity.
It is puzzling why the NYT has sentenced itself to wither away into irrelevance because it
works with the government to suppress stories, covering up election fraud in the ruling party
and ruthlessly campaigning against the main US opposition leader Donald Trump while it has been
doing the same unscrupulous things since its existence? Is it because the author's sense of justice
is selective, and he feels the American is exceptional, injustice applies to people not American
does not count?
100 Words
@blert 1) The WMD in Iraq were being unearthed straight through the occupation. Only in 2012
did the NY Times -- of all publications -- flatly admit that they'd suppressed the truth all those
years -- at the request of the Pentagon for obvious national security reasons.
A SINGLE binary nerve agent round (155mm) -- properly detonated -- could have killed thousands
of New Yorkers commuting by subway.
Hundreds of these rounds were ultimately recovered. The enemy never understood what they had their
hands on, as Saddam had ensured that these nerve agent rounds looked identical to conventional
rounds. He's the only madman that crazy.
( He did so to hide their usage from the French military advisors during his Iranian invasion.
)
2) The Dutch are correct. MH-17 can't be resolved as the Russians and Ukrainians have essentially
identical counter-air assets. Both parties have every reason to lie; and to screw up. The flight
should never have been routed anywhere near the conflict. KAL 007 and Iran Air 655 should've been
warning enough.
3) The US MSM is over concentrated to a ruinous degree. Ditto for America's J-schools, whose ethos
is to propagandise the World for its betterment.
4) It's no joke that the NY Times regards anyone west of the Hudson to be rubes.
5) They can spew it out -- but can't take correction -- at ANY level. This causes a profound detachment
from ground truth. "The WMD in Iraq were being unearthed straight through the occupation"
"... Most US wars since WWII have been wars of choice, done at leisure, in a time and place of US choosing. ..."
"... The difference between now and all the years since WWII, through the cold war and so forth is that the US has very little time left. In trying to think how the US is acting different now to the past, or actually dig up solid points I would probably point to MH17. With MH17 Australia, one of the five eyes gladly sacrificed some people for empire. That shook me. The evidence was the same as the crap dossier on Assad gassing his own people, yet not a word of protest out of any Australian politician. ..."
"... The US now have total and complete control over all its vassal. The US can now say and do anything, no matter how obvious, and the bobble heads as Putin calls them, just bobble their heads in agreement. ..."
I have been giving your posts a lot of consideration. How to tie the logistics and so forth lead
time, to what we are seeing take place?
create major incident, congress quickly votes for war?
Can the US deploy faster than we have seen in the past? Most US wars since WWII have been wars
of choice, done at leisure, in a time and place of US choosing.
The difference between now and all the years since WWII, through the cold war and so forth is
that the US has very little time left. In trying to think how the US is acting different now to the
past, or actually dig up solid points I would probably point to MH17. With MH17 Australia,
one of the five eyes gladly sacrificed some people for empire. That shook me. The evidence was the
same as the crap dossier on Assad gassing his own people, yet not a word of protest out of any Australian
politician.
The US now have total and complete control over all its vassal. The US can now say and do anything,
no matter how obvious, and the bobble heads as Putin calls them, just bobble their heads in agreement.
I think what we will see in the next few years will be much different to the last 70 or so years.
If the US does nothing, it will start to collapse as the power of the dollar is eroded by other currencies
taking up market share.
I believe US will act, and that means taking down China as China is currently the number one threat
to the US. China simply continuing the way it is, manufacturing, trading ect will take down the US.
The US is going to war. Much thought and training going into fighting peer, or near peer adversary.
At the same time, China and Russia are working to prevent the US from going to war.
What you have said about lead time does have to be taken into account to try and work out US strategy.
Does the US need another Pearl Harbour to get its population on a war footing for the coming war
with China? Sink a few useless aircraft carriers, similar to battleships being sunk at Pearl harbour
when WWII was a aircraft carrier war and battle ships were largely obsolete?
US think tanks like Brookings and Rand. Fronts for the 0.01% ? US policy roughly follows the lines
put out by these type think tanks.
The news of the 'attack' has wiped other news off the front page.
Bellingcat has just released a report with videos and photos of whole
Ukrainian BUK batteries around Donetsk from April 2014 up to a few
days before the shooting down of MH-17. The Ukrainians have always
claimed they had no BUKs in the eara, so it must have been a Russian
system, for which they created an elaborate tale of BUKs on tour.
This report destroys the whole Ukraine narrative. The Ukraine media
are all over it. Where's the coverage in the western media?
Ukraine BUK battery passing theorugh north Donetsk April 2014.
"... By John Helmer , the longest continuously serving foreign correspondent in Russia, and the only western journalist to direct his own bureau independent of single national or commercial ties. Helmer has also been a professor of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia. He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia. Originally published at Dances with Bears ..."
"... The Australian Government refuses to declare the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 a terrorist act, and is withholding state payments of $75,000 to each of the families of the 38 Australian nationals or residents killed when the plane was shot down in eastern Ukraine on July 14, 2014. ..."
"... In public Turnbull said on Monday: "Vladimir Putin's Russia is subject to international sanctions, to which Australia is a part, because of his conduct in shooting down the MH17 airliner in which 38 Australians were killed. Let's not forget that. That was a shocking international crime." ..."
"... Why were successive Australian officials so quick to designate the Nairobi and Brussels incidents as terrorism, before the local police and courts had time to investigate and prosecute, and why have the Australian officials spent two years and eight months refusing to designate the Ukrainian incident? Canberra sources believe the answer is that there is no legal basis in the Australian Criminal Code for doing so because the evidence of terrorism in the MH17 case isn't there. ..."
"... Only a bloody fool would suggest that Putin has anything to gain by shooting down a civilian airliner. If Turnbull really believes this he should issue a travel advisory on all Australian airlines crossing Russian airspace. Whan I first heard of this it appeared that the rebels had shot the plane down thinking it was some kind of Ukranian plane. The Ukranian went full court with this to brand Russia a terrorist state, things went downhill from there. The Ukraine bears culpability for allowing transit flights over a disturbed area, thus they can't really press for a neutral judgement. ..."
"... There was one KH-11 (USA-161) (2001-044A) that provides optical imagery in position at that time that might have had chance to image the area. However it might no longer have been functioning as it was deorbited a few months later. ..."
"... On that day several radar imaging satellite / systems made passes over the area. Lacrosse 5 (2005-016A), FIA Radar 1, 2 and 3 (2010-046A, 2012-014A and 2013-072A), the SAR-Lupe satellites, the Hélios system and IGS. These are operated by the US, Germany, France and Japan. ..."
"... My understanding is that the SBIRS saw the missile launch. Likely others 'saw' something. But likely, nothing any one satellite 'saw' is going to 'prove' anything. It would take the assembly of a number of things that were 'seen' to provide a weighted conclusion. Also a number of those satellites would have been looking at the Middle East instead of the Ukraine when they made those passes. ..."
"... This sounds like another sleazy compromise. Maybe the secret is that the Russians have cold hard evidence against Nato and Ukraine on this. Perhaps evidence that the Netherlands also compromised its notorious caution and allowed somebody to let MH17 fly over a war zone. So with this obfuscation about lack of intent both Russia and Ukraine have won. ..."
"... You make me think John Helmer. Yes, if Russian citizens, Putin or otherwise, are directly responsible for supplying the Buk that allegedly shot down flight MH17 to anyone in Ukraine or actually committed such an act, why are the Netherlands, USA, Australia, all countries of the world, especially those of Anglo-American persuasion, allowing their commercial aircraft to overfly Russian and Ukrainian territory? Why? Because they don't believe the story themselves, see Australia's stance, for instance. What a bunch of flaming hypocrites. The dead are dead so why not makt the best of them use them as an unprincipled excuse to achieve political ends. ..."
"... This whole MH17 incident stinks to high heaven and I cannot believe how much of our media here in Oz is uncritically accepting the official story. What is worse is knowing that all those deaths are being used as a convenient political football, the truth be damned. I can think of a dozen things that set of my BS Indicator here with MH17 such as the Ukrainians absolutely refusing to release the ground control comms to the downed airliner or that, unlike the Russians, the US has refused to release detailed radar and radio intercepts for that day. They did reference a nice YouTube clip of a moving truck though ..."
"... How many people know that the Ukrainians had their own BUK missiles in the area because they were shit-scared of the Russian Air Force maybe paying them a visit. Or that they had previously shot down an airliner – and had refused to accept responsibility? I think that Turnbull does not want the crash labelled a terrorist incident as when the full truth comes out (and it always does in the end) it would open up all sorts of legal liabilities and it could be him left swinging in the wind. ..."
"... If you asked people in Australia if it was a good idea to ship uranium to a semi-failed state in the middle of a civil war that has made indications that they would like to acquire nuclear weapons most of them would say no way. And yet last year we signed an agreement to do precisely that with Ukraine. ..."
"... As a former combat veteran, I can attest that the "smoking gun" in the MH17 case is the clearly identifiable circular holes in the fuselage which could only have been caused by the cannons of a fighter aircraft and not from shrapnel produced from an exploding missile. Shrapnel does not produce perfectly circular and consistent holes. MH17 was most likely brought down by the fighter jet following it in eyewitness accounts. ..."
Posted on
March 11, 2017
by
Yves Smith
By
John Helmer
, the longest continuously serving foreign correspondent in
Russia, and the only western journalist to direct his own bureau independent of
single national or commercial ties. Helmer has also been a professor of
political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United
States, and Asia. He is the first and only member of a US presidential
administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia. Originally
published at
Dances with Bears
The Australian Government
refuses
to
declare the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 a terrorist act, and
is withholding state payments of $75,000 to each of the families of the 38
Australian nationals or residents killed when the plane was shot down in
eastern Ukraine on July 14, 2014.
The Australian Attorney-General, George Brandis, has written to advise Prime
Minister Malcolm Turnbull (lead image, left; right image, Ukraine President
Petro Poroshenko) there is insufficient evidence of what and who caused the
MH17 crash to meet the Australian statutory test of a terrorist act. Because
the Attorney-General's legal opinion flatly contradicts Turnbull's public
opinions, Brandis's advice is top-secret; he refuses to answer questions about
the analysis of the MH17 incident which he and his subordinates, along with
Australian intelligence agencies and the Australian Federal Police, have been
conducting for more than two years.
In public Turnbull
said
on
Monday: "Vladimir Putin's Russia is subject to international sanctions, to
which Australia is a part, because of his conduct in shooting down the MH17
airliner in which 38 Australians were killed. Let's not forget that. That was a
shocking international crime."
On Wednesday Turnbull was asked to explain why, after so long, the Prime
Minister, on the advice of the Attorney-General, refuses to designate the MH17
incident as criminal terrorism according to the provisions of the Supporting
Australian Victims of Terrorism Overseas Act. Turnbull replied through a
spokesman that he is still investigating. "The criminal investigation of MH17
is ongoing. The outcomes of this investigation could be relevant in determining
whether this incident should be declared for the purposes of the Australian
Victims of Terrorism Overseas Payment scheme."
Brandis was asked to explain the reason for the legal opinion Canberra
sources confirm he has sent to the prime ministry denying the MH17 incident was
terrorism. That he has provided the advice on AVTOP is confirmed by a source
in Turnbull's office.
AVTOP is the Canberra acronym for Australian Victims of Terrorism Overseas
Payment. This is how the AVTOP scheme operates, and how eligibility is
decided,
according
to
the Australian social security ministry. It records that the last terrorism
incident for which Australians qualify for AVTOP compensation was the Westgate
shopping mall killings in Nairobi on September 21, 2013. There were 67 fatal
casualties in that incident, and more than double that number of wounded. One
Australian was killed. On October 6, 2013, two weeks after the incident, the
Australian prime minister issued a formal designation of the terrorist incident
for AVTOP compensation. That commenced on October 21, one month after the
incident, according to the statutory filing in the Australian parliament.
The prime minister then was Tony Abbott; his attorney-general was Eric
Abetz.
In March 2016 Turnbull had replaced Abbott as prime minister; the
attorney-general was Brandis. They
agreed
to
designate three bombing attacks in Brussels, at the airport and at a city train
station, as terrorist incidents for AVTOP. The date of the incidents was March
22 (pictured below). The date of the Turnbull-Landis designation was May 6 – 45
days later.
There are press
reports
that
Australians were in Brussels, and were anxious; there are no reports of
Australians being killed or wounded in the attacks.
Why were successive Australian officials so quick to designate the Nairobi
and Brussels incidents as terrorism, before the local police and courts had
time to investigate and prosecute, and why have the Australian officials spent
two years and eight months refusing to designate the Ukrainian incident?
Canberra sources believe the answer is that there is no legal basis in the
Australian Criminal Code for doing so because the evidence of terrorism in the
MH17 case isn't there.
The 2013 and 2016 designations, along with the Canberra sources, identify a
terrorist incident according to the Australian Criminal Code. Officials
working under Brandis and Turnbull must satisfy the Attorney-General and Prime
Minister that the incident comes under the Code's sub-section 100.1(1). This
says
a
terrorist act "means an action or threat of action where: (b) the action is
done or the threat is made with the intention of advancing a political,
religious or ideological cause; and (c) the action is done or the threat is
made with the intention of: (i) coercing, or influencing by intimidation, the
government of the Commonwealth or a State, Territory or foreign country, or of
part of a State, Territory or foreign country; or (ii) intimidating the public
or a section of the public."
For background on the debate among government officials, police and lawyers
about the impact of Australian law on the MH17 incident, read
this
.
Canberra sources explain that even if Brandis had told Turnbull there was
enough evidence to certify the MH17 shoot-down as a terrorist incident,
according to the criminal code provisions, the prime minister still has a
broad discretion in deciding whether or not to make a declaration regarding a
particular incident.
That Turnbull hasn't done so for the MH17 carnage means he doesn't want to
do so - and not only because of his attorney-general's advice. Turnbull was
also behind press leaks that as a cabinet minister under Prime Minister Abbott
in August 2014, he opposed a scheme of Abbott's to send 3,000 Australian troops
to join Dutch and other NATO forces in a US-backed military operation in
eastern Ukraine. Abbott and NATO had prepared the justification for the
military operation as Russian state terrorism in downing the MH17. Turnbull
arranged for his son-in-law to reveal the cabinet papers and intelligence
reports from the time, and to record his assessment that Abbott was foolhardy.
For that story, click
here
.
Australian sources who know Turnbull don't agree in their interpretation of
what he is now saying and doing. Some sources believe that with his political
mouth Turnbull is backing the US position against Russia and protecting himself
from opposition party attacks that he is "soft" on the Kremlin. With his legal
mind Turnbull knows there is no admissible evidence and no prospect of
prosecuting terrorism in the MH17 case.
The Australians haven't realized that their decision that the MH17 is not a
terrorist act undermines this month's proceedings in The Netherlands, where the
Ukrainian government has applied to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to
convict Russia of financing, arming and aiding terrorist acts, including the
destruction of MH17. The lawyers engaged this week at The Hague haven't
realized either.
The 45-page Ukrainian claim against Moscow to the ICJ is dated January 16,
2017, and can be read
here
.
The US law firm Covington & Burling is defending the Kiev government; the
advocates for the Russian side include British and French lawyers.
Advocates for Kiev at the ICJ this week: left US lawyer Marney Cheek;
right, Olena Zerkal, Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine
According to the Ukrainian claim, the destruction of MH17 was an act of
terrorism. "When the Russian Federation delivered this deadly surface-to-air
missile system to the DPR, it knew precisely the type of organization it was
aiding The Russian government knew or should have known that their proxies
would use these powerful antiaircraft weapons in a manner consistent with their
previous pattern of disregard for civilian life."
"By the early summer of 2014, the Russian Federation was well aware that its
proxies operating on Ukrainian territory were engaged in a pattern and practice
of terrorizing civilians. Yet rather than intervening to abate those actions,
the Russian Federation's response was to substantially increase these groups'
firepower by supplying them with powerful weapons. An early result of this
decision was the attack on Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17. In July 2014, as
part of this escalation of arms supplies and other support, the Russian
Federation delivered a Buk surface-to-air missile system to DPR-associated
forces. Those illegal armed groups used the Buk system to commit a devastating
surface-to-air attack, destroying a civilian airliner transiting Ukrainian
airspace and murdering the 298 individuals on board These perpetrators
committed this terrorist attack with the direct support of the Russian
government There is no evidence that the Russian Federation has taken any
responsibility before the peoples of the world for supporting this horrific
terrorist act."
"Ukraine respectfully requests the Court to adjudge and declare that the
Russian Federation bears international responsibility, by virtue of its
sponsorship of terrorism and failure to prevent the financing of terrorism
under the Convention, for the acts of terrorism committed by its proxies in
Ukraine, including: a.The shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17."
The Russian presentations in open court so far can be read
here
. Ilya
Rogachev, Director of the Department of New Challenges and Threats at the
Russian Foreign Ministry, testified in front of 16 judges of the court on March
7. Rogachev was followed for the Russian side by London Queens Counsel,
Samuel Wordsworth.
According to Rogachev, "it should be noted that during the summer of 2014
the Ukrainian Army's anti-aircraft missile regiment No. 156, equipped with
'BUK-M1' missile systems, was stationed in the zone of conflict. The regiment's
headquarters and its first division were located in Avdiivka near Donestk, its
second division in Mariupol and its third in Lugansk. In total the regiment was
armed with 17 BUK-M1 SAMs, identical to the one identified by the JIT."
He went on to argue that whether the Ukrainian forces fired the BUK missile,
or whether the separatists did, there is no evidence that either force intended
to do so. "It is enough to note," said Rogachev, "that neither the DSB [Dutch
Safety Board] nor the JIT [Joint Investigation Team] appear to be concluding
that the civil airliner was shot down with malicious intent or, which is what
matters most for today, that the equipment allegedly used was provided for that
specific purpose."
The JIT, according to Turnbull's spokesman in Canberra this week, includes
Australia,Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine. The spokesman said
they "remain committed to ensuring those responsible for the downing of MH17
are held to account." On the other hand, the evidence so far produced by the
JIT hasn't satisfied the admissibility and prosecution tests of the Australian
Federal Police (AFP) officers on the JIT staff. The AFP's Commissioner Andrew
Colvin reports to the Australian Justice Minister and he, as well as the
AFP
,
are part of the portfolio of Attorney- General Brandis.
In two Australian coroners court hearings, the AFP has revealed serious
reservations about the Dutch evidence and Ukrainian claims in the MH17
investigation; for details read
this
and
this
.
Turnbull adds through his spokesman an additional qualification. "The
outcomes of this investigation could be relevant" in determining whether the
downing of MH17 was a terrorist act. In Australian law and in the Prime
Minister's judgement, could means not now – and not at the International Court.
"For the action to fall under the Montreal Convention," Rogachev testified
this week in The Hague, referring to the principal international treaty
covering compensation for aircraft incidents, "the intention must have been to
shoot down a civilian aircraft "
Wordsworth told the ICJ judges that for every act alleged in the court
papers by the Kiev regime, "there is a separate requirement of specific intent.
So far as concerns Ukraine's allegations with respect to Flight MH17, Article
2.1 (a) incorporates the offences under the Montreal Convention, which comprise
the unlawful and intentional destruction of a civilian aircraft. So far as
concerns the other allegations of Ukraine, there is a requirement of both
specific intent and purpose. Article 2 (1) (b) refers to: "(b) Any other act
intended to cause death or serious bodily injury to a civilian, or to any other
person not taking an active part in the hostilities in a situation of armed
conflict, when the purpose of such act, by its nature or context, is to
intimidate a population, or to compel a government or an international
organization to do or to abstain from doing any act."
Wordsworth was repeating in open court what the Australian Attorney-General
has already advised the Australian Prime Minister. Because the Australians have
decided there is no case for a terrorist act to justify compensating their own
citizens, the Ukrainians have already lost their case.
Only a bloody fool would suggest that Putin has anything to gain by shooting
down a civilian airliner. If Turnbull really believes this he should issue a
travel advisory on all Australian airlines crossing Russian airspace. Whan I
first heard of this it appeared that the rebels had shot the plane down
thinking it was some kind of Ukranian plane. The Ukranian went full court with
this to brand Russia a terrorist state, things went downhill from there. The
Ukraine bears culpability for allowing transit flights over a disturbed area,
thus they can't really press for a neutral judgement.
I'll add the usual point that the charge is all the more incredible
because none of the US' radar and satellite coverage at the time has been
brought to bear to "prove" Russian complicity. Ukraine air space 7/24/14,
unplugged?
There was one KH-11 (USA-161) (2001-044A) that provides optical
imagery in position at that time that might have had chance to image the
area. However it might no longer have been functioning as it was
deorbited a few months later.
There were also a number of commercial imaging satellites that passed
through the area that day.
On that day several radar imaging satellite / systems made passes over
the area. Lacrosse 5 (2005-016A), FIA Radar 1, 2 and 3 (2010-046A,
2012-014A and 2013-072A), the SAR-Lupe satellites, the Hélios system and
IGS. These are operated by the US, Germany, France and Japan.
There were numerous (too many to list) SIGNIT satellites operated by a
number of countries from LEO to HEO (SBIRS).
My understanding is that the SBIRS saw the missile launch. Likely
others 'saw' something. But likely, nothing any one satellite 'saw' is
going to 'prove' anything. It would take the assembly of a number of
things that were 'seen' to provide a weighted conclusion. Also a number
of those satellites would have been looking at the Middle East instead of
the Ukraine when they made those passes.
This sounds like another sleazy compromise. Maybe the secret is
that the Russians have cold hard evidence against Nato and Ukraine on
this. Perhaps evidence that the Netherlands also compromised its
notorious caution and allowed somebody to let MH17 fly over a war
zone. So with this obfuscation about lack of intent both Russia and
Ukraine have won.
If intent cannot be proven against the Russians, it
can't be proven against the Ukrainian army either because the evidence
presented eliminated all the above top secret details. So now the
whole thing was an "accident". When, if all the evidence were
reviewed, a case for intent falls against Nato and Ukraine – they
intended to frame Russia for the incident to gain support for their
cause. And as such it does meet the definition of terrorism. At least
Turnbull refused to call it Russian terrorism.
What I want to know is why the Ukrainian air traffic control system directed
this flight over a zone of active hostilities, where the Ukrainian Air Force
had previously had a good many military aircraft shot out of the sky.
The answer to the first part of your question is that countries get paid
for over flights. The second part of your question is that all the Ukrainian
Air Force planes that had been shot down were flying much, much lower and it
was assumed the equipment being used to do it couldn't go as high as the
commercial airliners were flying.
You, know sort of like the Soviets couldn't reach the U-2.
Indeed – even if they had no reason to believe that a capability to shoot
down airliners at 30,000 feet plus (i.e., a weapon like the Buk-M1) was present
on the ground at that point, commerical airliners are sometimes required to
descend rapidly to much lower altitudes (e.g., by pressure emergencies) so it
makes no sense to rely on an assumption that hostile weapons can't reach the
usual cruising altitude. It is a fair question what the airline ops people were
thinking as well.
Agreed that this has always seemed more likely to be a reckless screwup by
the people running the BUK than a deliberate terrorist act. (Then again, I
think the host nations do make money from these flyovers.)
I agree with your conclusion that it was a total screw up. Only part of
the system was present and that cut down the ability to see the entire
picture (or better see the entire picture).
You make me think John Helmer. Yes, if Russian citizens, Putin or otherwise,
are directly responsible for supplying the Buk that allegedly shot down flight
MH17 to anyone in Ukraine or actually committed such an act, why are the
Netherlands, USA, Australia, all countries of the world, especially those of
Anglo-American persuasion, allowing their commercial aircraft to overfly
Russian and Ukrainian territory? Why? Because they don't believe the story
themselves, see Australia's stance, for instance. What a bunch of flaming
hypocrites. The dead are dead so why not makt the best of them use them as an
unprincipled excuse to achieve political ends.
This whole MH17 incident stinks to high heaven and I cannot believe how much
of our media here in Oz is uncritically accepting the official story. What is
worse is knowing that all those deaths are being used as a convenient political
football, the truth be damned. I can think of a dozen things that set of my BS
Indicator here with MH17 such as the Ukrainians absolutely refusing to release
the ground control comms to the downed airliner or that, unlike the Russians,
the US has refused to release detailed radar and radio intercepts for that day.
They did reference a nice YouTube clip of a moving truck though.
How many people know that the Ukrainians had their own BUK missiles in the
area because they were shit-scared of the Russian Air Force maybe paying them a
visit. Or that they had previously shot down an airliner – and had refused to
accept responsibility? I think that Turnbull does not want the crash labelled a
terrorist incident as when the full truth comes out (and it always does in the
end) it would open up all sorts of legal liabilities and it could be him left
swinging in the wind.
Following American policy for this area, of which Australia has no
connection, has led to all sorts of weird repercussions. Tony Abbott wanted to
send a brigade of our troops to eastern Ukraine as part of a NATO force. That
would of worked out well! If you asked people in Australia if it was a good
idea to ship uranium to a semi-failed state in the middle of a civil war that
has made indications that they would like to acquire nuclear weapons most of
them would say no way. And yet last year we signed an agreement to do precisely
that with Ukraine.
As a former combat veteran, I can attest that the "smoking gun" in the
MH17 case is the clearly identifiable circular holes in the fuselage which
could only have been caused by the cannons of a fighter aircraft and not
from shrapnel produced from an exploding missile. Shrapnel does not produce
perfectly circular and consistent holes. MH17 was most likely brought down
by the fighter jet following it in eyewitness accounts.
Agreed. This would not be an issue at all were it not for the
propaganda smoke screen the western MSM was ordered to throw up to
protect those who must never be named.
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I remember reading that Putin was traveling back
to Russia and his flight path was changed prior to the shoot down of MH17,
which was on the same flight path, but wasn't altered. A mistake by the
Ukrainians who didn't get the word? As for the silence of the U.S., seems to go
with the territory considering who is/was at center stage in the overthrow
revolution.
says:
September 28, 2016 at 10:46 am
Russia made another mistake back in 2014 when it handed the MH-17 wreck to the West. What Russia
should have done is to keep all the evidence to itself and conduct its own investigation, denying
the West any role in it.
Reply
Moscow Exile
says:
September 28, 2016 at 11:06 am
One small point that you may well not be aware of: the debris from the downed flight MH-17
was not on Russian sovereign territory and the Russian state had no jurisdiction whatsoever
over what should be done with it.
Reply
Moscow
Exile
says:
September 28, 2016 at 11:44 am
Pro-Russian some of the anti-government Donbas militia may well be, but the Donbas is
not the Crimea and Russia did not and has never wished to annex it; for one thing, the
majority of the citizens of the Donetsk province are probably neither "pro-Russian" or
wish to that the province become part of the Russian federation.
Reply
Jen
says:
September 28, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Karl, what you suggest is called messing up the crime scene and potentially
destroying evidence that could actually favour the rebels. The whole area should
have been cordoned off and guarded by armed forces from an impartial third party
country (or a UN peacekeeping force) which did not have any passengers on MH17
for as long as needed for a full criminal investigation and search for evidence
to be done.
Reply
marknesop
says:
September 28, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Yes, I'm sure an investigation by Russia – which the west had
already designated the prime suspect – of wreckage it controlled in
secret and would not let the west see would have had all kinds of
credibility. But you don't think that either. You're just trolling.
Reply
Moscow Exile
says:
September 28, 2016 at 9:56 pm
Skimming through the UK newspapers this morning, as well as the
BBC, the Dutch MH-17 report seems not to have caused headline
news.
The Telegraph front page is dominated by a shock-horror
football corruption scandal (I mean that big girl's game with a
round ball - what they like to call "soccer" outside the UK),
the Independent has as its lead story the Congress veto on
Obama, the BBC - the same. A far cry from when news of the
downing broke and such headlines as "Putin's Killed My Son!"
screamed out from the British gutter press.
And that's not the distressed father's son pictured next to
the headline: it's the British monarch's great-grandson, George,
whose parents are at present waving to Canadians,the child's
mother displaying, as ever, her inane, fixed grin.
Reply
John Helmer has his analysis up. This part is important, since the Dutch "investigators" were
basing their conclusions on recorded conversations provided by the SBU (such as the one that appeared
on YouTube a day before the crash?)
"Westerbeke acknowledged that all the telephone intercepts and wiretaps reported as evidence
of Russian involvement in the reported missile operation originated from the Ukrainian secret
service. Evidence of the missile movement, ground launch, and smoke trail from social media, photographs
and videotapes, and purported witnesses presented at today's JIT session have all appeared publicly
before; much of it already discredited as fakes."
The Ukies must be dancing in the corridors of power – the west supported them in spite of the
ridicule and disgust that political decision incurred. This must surely be evidence of their national
greatness.
Too bad they didn't see that map that "journalists" were breathtakingly sharing that showed
that pro-Trump tweets originated in a Russian bot factory in St. Petersburg. It turns out that
map is a complete fake, probably created by Hillary's troll bots.
Video used in the JiT presentation on MH17. Watch all of it, if you can bear it. But look at the
back of the low-loader platform at 03:31 exactly. The red upward ramps sudddenly disappear.
It's fairly clear that Bell End's Cat is just the medium to feed carefully doctored intel so that
the United States doesn't have to show its satellite recording of the launch, the one John Kerry
said the US had but no-one has heard of since.
On CNN this morning, John Kerry said the US actually observed the missile launch with satellite
imagery and watched it hit the plane. And yet there were no assets in the area t the time of Benghazi
– or at least that is what the Administration tells us. There was no drone in the air.
Yes, the US can make exorbitant claims now that the decision has been rendered, cut and dried,
and it no longer has to show its evidence. Now Kerry can strut and whoop and beat his chest and
say we saw this, we saw that. Nobody will ever know.
Reply
Typical of Eliot 'Tubby' Higgins,
his take on the newly-released raw radar data from Russia is that it proves they faked their
previous evidence. Keep on trollin', Tubby. What of all Bellingcat's 'evidence' of the surreptitious
Buk launcher being smuggled into Ukraine from Russia and back again? It looks like a lot of theories
may go up in smoke – not least the one that it was a Ukrainian fighter jet, since the Ust-Donetsk
radar would surely have seen that.
But then that means he thinks the new evidence the Russian defense ministry released must be genuine,
since it can be used to prove something?
Of course, the Russian defense ministry never claimed an Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the
airliner. If have always be very careful to only say "this is what we observed; we are putting
it out there". For me, it's interesting to consider the timing of Russia's new revelations. Clearly,
Russia is playing a careful game in the info war against the powerful Western brainwashing machine.
Something interesting in the air, according to the Interfax feed:
16:05
Kyiv has still not published info on Ukrainian surface-to-air missile systems, conversations between
dispatchers on day of Boeing crash – Russian Defense Ministry
16:02
Ukrainian air defense means were located near Boeing 777 crash site – Russian Aerospace Forces
15:52
Russian Defense Ministry accuses Ukraine of manipulating investigation into Malaysian Boeing crash
15:48
Russian Defense Ministry says Ukraine conceals info regarding 2014 Boeing crash
15:46
Netherlands will get from Russia irrefutable info on Boeing 777 crash in Donbas – Russian Defense
Ministry
15:39
Russian radar station didn't register air objects coming towards Boeing in sky over Donbas from
Snizhne side
15:28
INTL INQUIRY INTO BOEING 777 DISASTER IN UKRAINE IS ON THE WRONG TRACK; MISSILE TYPE, PLACE OF
LAUNCH DETERMINED WRONGLY – RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY
15:25
RUSSIA TO GIVE OBJECTIVE AND IRREFUTABLE INFO ON BOEING 777 CRASH TO NETHERLANDS – RUSSIAN DEFENSE
MINISTRY
15:24
KYIV CONCEALS INFO ON BOEING 777 DISASTER, FLIGHT WAS FOLLOWED BY UKRAINE'S RADARS, AIR DEFENSE
FORCES – RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY
15:24
UKRAINE HAS NOT PUBLISHED INFO ON LOCATION OF ITS SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES BUK ON THE DAY OF BOEING
777 CRASH, MILITARY DISPATCHERS' CONVERSATIONS – RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY
Recently unearthed
raw radar data from a civilian radar at Ust-Donetsk. The memory chips were replaced in July
2014, and they have recently come to light. Russia claims they are solid proof of the direction
from which the attack came, but I'm not over-hopeful. The western point of view will be, the radar
doesn't show anything. That doesn't mean there wasn't anything there. Maybe the radar just wasn't
working properly. Or maybe the information was there, but has been edited out somehow. Of course,
if the raw data shows MH17 right up until it is hit, it might be extremely valuable. We'll see.
Can't wait for the Ukrainian reaction.
Hmmmm….I guess I should have paid closer attention on the first run-through. According to the
story, the raw video does indeed show MH-17, as well as two other civilian aircraft in the vicinity,
the closest at only about 30 km away at the time it was shot down.
Kiev will of course scream that the info is faked, and Russia is panicking because the final
report is due, and the US State Department will of course back Kiev up for as long as it can.
But experts will be able to tell if anything has been altered, and if they cannot find any such
evidence they may have no choice but to accept it in the absence of any contradictory evidence
– or any evidence at all – from Kiev.
Ooooooo…the system also detected an Orlan-10 drone; much smaller than an SA-11. A lot slower,
though.
Reply
"... a Python-5 (or Derby) missile can also be carried by an Israeli combat drone such as the Heron-TP (Eitan) , which easily reaches an altitude of 10 to 15km. (More on Israeli combat drones, see here , here and here ). ..."
"... Because they wrongly assumed MH17 could only have been downed by the local war parties, i.e. the Ukrainian military or the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. Therefore, they wrongly restricted the "air-to-air scenario" to a Ukranian fighter jet, which was then excluded. The official investigation did not consider the possibility that a third party with more advanced technological capabilities may have been involved in the downing of MH17. ..."
"... There is a video of a skype conversation with one of his officers (who suspected Kolomoyskyi had a hand in the downing of MH17) in which Kolomoyskyi called the crash of MH17 "a trifle". ..."
"... According to another report , the exercise also included "the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS)" . Moreover, "BREEZE included the AEGIS-class guided missile cruiser USS Vela Gulf. AEGIS cruisers' AN/SPY 1 radar has the ability to track all aircraft over a large region. (…) From the Black Sea, the Vela Gulf was able to track Malaysian Airlines 17 over the Black Sea and any missiles fired at the plane. U.S. AWACS electronic intelligence (ELINT) aircraft were also flying over the Black Sea region at the time of the MH-17 flyover of Ukraine. Growler aircraft have the capability to jam radar systems in all surface-to-air threats." ..."
In August 2015, a
Russian study
suggested that MH17 was shot down by an Israeli Python-5 air-to-air missile (which usually targets
the cockpit of a plane due to an advanced electro-optical guidance system). Yet the authors still
assumed the missile must have been fired by a fighter jet. Because Ukraine has no fighter jets that
can carry a Python-5, the authors speculated that a special version of a Georgian fighter jet may
have been used. This seems unlikely.
Why did the official investigation not even consider the scenario of a combat drone?
Because they wrongly assumed MH17 could only have been downed by the local war parties, i.e.
the Ukrainian military or the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. Therefore, they wrongly restricted the "air-to-air
scenario" to a Ukranian fighter jet, which was then excluded. The official investigation did not
consider the possibility that a third party with more advanced technological capabilities may have
been involved in the downing of MH17.
Excerpt from the JIT presentation (after they have excluded an accident and a bomb):
Why did the official investigation conclude it must have been a BUK missile ?
The only reason why the official investigation concluded MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile is
that two pieces of
butterfly-shaped warhead fragments were "found" in the debris of the plane:
Two pieces of butterfly-shaped fragments found in the debris of MH17 (top-left and top-right).
These butterfly-shaped warhead fragments are found in only one specific warhead: a BUK warhead
of type 9N314M1 :
Different types of BUK missiles and warheads.
There is only one problem with this story: Almaz-Antey, the manufacturer of the BUK sytem, attested
that a 9N314M1 warhead can only be used on an advanced BUK missile of type 9M38M1 (see image above).
However, even the official investigation
acknowledges that the Eastern Ukrainian rebels could not have possessed this advanced type of
BUK missile, but only a standard missile of type 9M38 . Yet according to the manufacturer, a standard
9M38 BUK missile can carry only a standard warhead of type 9N314 , which does not contain the butterfly-shaped
warhead fragments (see image above).
There is however a much more plausible explanation for the two butterfly-shaped fragments found
in the debris: they may simply have been
planted prior to the examination in order to incriminate the rebels (and Russia), while overlooking
the fact that the only warhead containing these fragments is perhaps not even compatible with a standard
BUK missile.
This explanation is in line with several other facts:
The
tests carried out by the manufacturer of the BUK system showed that if indeed a 9N314M1 warhead
had been used, not only would there be many butterfly-shaped holes in the fuselage, but many more
than just two such fragments would have been found in the wreckage. These results were again ignored
by the official investigation.
The next excerpt from the DSB report shows again the faulty logic applied by the official investigation:
They first assume that "air-to-air" can only mean a local (Ukranian) fighter jet. Wrong!
Because of this, they consider only locally available (Soviet/Russian) air-to-air missiles.
Wrong!
They identify three (Soviet) missiles with a fragmentation-explosion warhead (R-33, R-37 and
R-40). However, because none of these contain "bow-tie" (butterfly) shaped fragments, they exclude
the use of any air-to-air missile. Wrong!
Because of this, they think they can exclude the air-to-air scenario altogether. Wrong!
Finally, they add that in the case of an air-to-air attack, "another aircraft" (near MH17)
would have to have been recorded "at least by primary radar data". Wrong again! Besides, the investigation
didn't even have access to primary radar data (see point 5 above).
... ... ...
If the downing of MH17 was indeed a carefully planned operation, the preparation of such false
photos and videos putting the blame to the rebels (and Russia) would have been an integral an rather
easy part of it.
Who controlled the airspace in which MH17 was downed?
He is a long-time
arch-enemy of Russian president Putin.
Russia issued
an arrest warrant against him just two weeks prior to the crash of MH17.
Kolomoisky also created a private army (
Battalion Dnipro
) which fought against the Eastern Ukrainian rebels.
There is a video
of a skype conversation with one of his officers (who suspected Kolomoyskyi had a hand in
the downing of MH17) in which Kolomoyskyi called the crash of MH17 "a trifle".
In addition, Kolomoyskyi is the owner of
Burisma Holdings , Ukraine's biggest private gas company, which in May 2014 made Hunter Biden,
the son of US vice president Joe Biden,
one of its directors.
Perhaps all of this is not important. Or perhaps it is. At any rate, the official investigation
never looked into it.
Why did nobody – not even Russia – ever mention the drone scenario?
If MH17 was indeed shot down by an armed drone, it is not guaranteed that Russia can prove this
in any way. Without a clear proof, what should they say? Moreover, in the case of a combat drone,
they cannot simply accuse the government in Kiev, but they would have to accuse far more powerful
actors. Perhaps it is easier to just trade some meaningless allegations between the Ukrainian military
and the Eastern Ukrainian rebels.
Recall that after
the attack on a UN aid convoy in Syria in September 2016, the U.S. also immediately blamed Russia
(without any proof, of course). Russia denied, but again it didn't – and probably couldn't – present
any proof for another scenario.
Final note
Even if there were arguments speaking against an armed drone, the fact remains that the official
investigation (both DSB and JIT) did not even consider this option. Thus no matter what, the official
investigation used a faulty approach and prematurely ruled out the air-to-air scenario.
A reader remarks that on the very day MH17 crashed (July 17, 2014), a ten day long
NATO military exercise in the Black Sea ended (BREEZE 2014) . In other words, the military
of the
United States and nine more NATO members were present and active in the Black Sea region right
up to the day of the MH17 disaster. According to a
press release , these war games even involved "commercial traffic monitoring".
According to another report , the exercise also included "the use of electronic warfare and
electronic intelligence aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne
Warning and Control System (AWACS)" . Moreover, "BREEZE included the AEGIS-class guided missile
cruiser USS Vela Gulf. AEGIS cruisers' AN/SPY 1 radar has the ability to track all aircraft over
a large region. (…) From the Black Sea, the Vela Gulf was able to track Malaysian Airlines 17
over the Black Sea and any missiles fired at the plane. U.S. AWACS electronic intelligence (ELINT)
aircraft were also flying over the Black Sea region at the time of the MH-17 flyover of Ukraine.
Growler aircraft have the capability to jam radar systems in all surface-to-air threats."
The same report notes that "200 U.S. Army personnel normally assigned to bases in Germany
were in Ukraine during the time of the MH-17 fly-over. They were participating in NATO exercise
RAPID TRIDENT II . Ukraine's Ministry of Defense led the exercise."
A reader notes that another option might be a so-called "suicide drone" , i.e. a loitering
strike drone that includes a warhead in its fuselage and self-destructs into its target. These
are basically missiles that fly like a plane. Due to their small size, they are invisible to radar
detection systems. Examples include e.g. the Israeli
IAI Harop and
Hero-30 . Usually,
such drones attack ground targets and therefore operate at a low altitude (and rather low speed,
about 200 km/h). If a high-altitude suicide drone exists at all, it would also require a fragmentation-explosion
warhead to cause the damage observed on the wreckage of MH17. Moreover, due to its low speed,
timing would be more difficult compared to a drone-fired air-to-air missile.
If a radar-guided medium-range air-to-air missile was used, there are two options to provide
the radar signal: active radar homing with an integrated radar transceiver, or semi-active radar
homing with an external, ground- or air-based radar signal. Thus the drone itself doesn't have
to be equipped with a radar unit. In fact, this is another clear advantage over the BUK scenario:
since the rebels didn't have their own radar unit (even the "videos" only show a launching unit),
they would have fired the missile "blindly". This is unlikely to begin with, but it is even more
unlikely that they would actually have hit a plane at 10 km altitude without radar guidance.
A reader asks: can a BUK be fired from a drone, like other missiles that can be fired both
surface-to-air and air-to-air (AMRAAM, Derby)? Officially no airborne version of the BUK exists.
(There is a navy version, though.) So this would have to be experimental. However, air-to-air
missiles such as the R-33, R-37 or R-40 have a fragmentation-explosion warhead of comparable size
to the BUK.
"... The Atlantic Council is a leading US geopolitical strategy think tank, which last month published a document outlining advanced preparations underway for the United States to fight "major and deadly" wars between "great powers," which will entail "heavy casualties" and "high levels of death and destruction." The document, titled "The Future of the Army," roots the likelihood of such a war in what it calls "Russia's resurgence." ..."
"... Higgins is one of five authors of an Atlantic Council report released earlier this year, "Distract, Deceive, Destroy," on Russia's role in Syria. The report concludes by calling for US missile strikes in Syria. ..."
"... Despite having no background in weapons analysis beyond that supposedly derived from computer gaming and, in Higgins' own words, "what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo [films]," he was quickly identified by the international media as a ready source of quotes that could be palmed off as "independent," while hewing to the anti-Russian line of the US and its NATO allies. ..."
"... By 2014, Higgins was able to raise the finance to create Bellingcat, a more professionally produced web site backed by up to 15 staff and volunteers. Bellingcat was launched days before MH17 was shot down and quickly expanded its area of study to include Ukraine. ..."
"... How closely allied to the operations of the US state and intelligence network Higgins was by this time can be gauged from an article he wrote in July of this year, "New generation of digital detectives fight to keep Russia honest." ..."
"... In the article on MH17 published on the Atlantic Council web site, Higgins wrote that following the downing of the plane, "With renewed interest in the conflict in Ukraine, Bellingcat began to look at other aspects of the conflict, where claims of Russian involvement were met with blanket denials." He continued, " Together with our colleagues at the Atlantic Council ..."
"... Proving that MH17 was shot down by Russian forces was a major focus of Bellingcat's efforts. As early as July 28, 2014, Higgins wrote, "The Buk That Could--An Open Source Odyssey," which was based on poor quality videos, stills and quotes from Ukrainian counterterrorism chief Vitaly Nayda. Citing communications intercepts he would not release, Nayda claimed that the "launcher rolled into Ukraine across the Russian border aboard a flatbed truck." ..."
"... By 2015, Higgins' propaganda operation had become so discredited that the German news magazine Der ..."
"... In other words, Higgins/Bellingcat is useful for pumping out propaganda masquerading as "citizen journalism." The so-called "research collective" is an Internet and social media adjunct of the US government and NATO. The conclusions of its "research" are determined by Higgins' politics, which serve the interests of the imperialist powers as they gear up for war against Russia. ..."
"... I notice that on the cable behemoth HBO they are the showing the above mentioned "news program" Vice News, which is slick and slimy.Great example of very stealthy imperialist propaganda . ..."
In its report, released last month, on the 2014 downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, the Dutch-led
Joint Investigation Team (JIT) blamed Russia. The JIT, in which the authorities of the Netherlands,
Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine are collaborating, stated that the missile that downed the
plane "was brought from the territory of the Russian Federation and, after launch, subsequently returned
to the Russian Federation territory."
The JIT noted, "[M]any journalists carried out their own
investigations, as did research collectives like Bellingcat. This resulted in different scenarios
and theories being raised, both in the media and on the Internet."
The JIT report is cursory and based largely on Ukrainian sources. It does not provide definitive
evidence to back up its conclusions, leaving unresolved the question of who shot down MH17.
This reference to Bellingcat, however, is significant. The speculative scenario sketched out by
the JIT, utilizing animation, images, un-sourced mobile phone recordings and references to unavailable
satellite and radar data, is almost identical to that advanced by Bellingcat.
The Bellingcat "research collective" is a web site established in July 2014 by Eliot Higgins.
Originally from Leicester in the UK, Higgins is, as of February, a senior fellow in the Atlantic
Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab and Future Europe Initiative.
The Atlantic Council is a leading US geopolitical strategy think tank, which last month published
a document outlining advanced preparations underway for the United States to fight "major and deadly"
wars between "great powers," which will entail "heavy casualties" and "high levels of death and destruction."
The document, titled "The Future of the Army," roots the likelihood of such a war in what it calls
"Russia's resurgence."
Higgins is one of five authors of an Atlantic Council report released earlier this year, "Distract,
Deceive, Destroy," on Russia's role in Syria. The report concludes by calling for US missile strikes
in Syria.
From 2012, Higgins maintained a blog, "Brown Moses," which became notorious for its pro-imperialist
coverage of the Syria conflict. Higgins trawled social media posts--primarily Facebook, Twitter and
YouTube--for images and clips that purported to reveal the many types of both homemade and industrially
manufactured weaponry in use in the bloodbath provoked by US imperialism.
Despite having no background in weapons analysis beyond that supposedly derived from computer
gaming and, in Higgins' own words, "what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo [films],"
he was quickly identified by the international media as a ready source of quotes that could be palmed
off as "independent," while hewing to the anti-Russian line of the US and its NATO allies.
In 2013, Brown Moses became embroiled in allegations by the main imperialist powers that the Syrian
government used chemical weapons against civilians in the Ghouta suburb of Damascus. By "studying"
social media posts of damaged rockets embedded in the ground, the angle of shadows cast and satellite
images of the area, Higgins claimed to be able to show that rockets, alleged to contain sarin, had
been fired by the Syrian army.
Higgins' efforts were recycled by the world media. At the time, the US government and NATO were
on the brink of a major military escalation in Syria, with the alleged chemical attacks meant to
provide the pretext.
Later that year, veteran US investigative journalist Seymour Hersh debunked the chemical attack
allegations, pointing out that numerous forces in the Syrian conflict, including US-backed "rebel"
groups fighting the Syrian government, such as the Al Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front, had "mastered
the mechanics of creating sarin and [were] capable of manufacturing it in quantity."
Higgins' work was rubbished by a group of Massachusetts Institute of Technology scientists, led
by Professor Theodore Postol, a professor of science, technology, and international security. Postol
told Mint Press, "It's clear and unambiguous this munition could not have come from Syrian
government-controlled areas as the White House claimed." Higgins, he added, "has done a very nice
job collecting information on a website. As far as his analysis, it's so lacking any analytical foundation,
it's clear he has no idea what he's talking about."
By 2014, Higgins was able to raise the finance to create Bellingcat, a more professionally
produced web site backed by up to 15 staff and volunteers. Bellingcat was launched days before MH17
was shot down and quickly expanded its area of study to include Ukraine.
How closely allied to the operations of the US state and intelligence network Higgins was
by this time can be gauged from an article he wrote in July of this year, "New generation of digital
detectives fight to keep Russia honest."
In the article on MH17 published on the Atlantic Council web site, Higgins wrote that following
the downing of the plane, "With renewed interest in the conflict in Ukraine, Bellingcat began to
look at other aspects of the conflict, where claims of Russian involvement were met with blanket
denials." He continued, " Together with our colleagues at the Atlantic Council, we explored
Russia's involvement in the conflict in Ukraine in the report 'Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War
in Ukraine,' which led VICE News to track down one of the Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine who
had been identified in the report." [Emphasis added]
The 2014 civil war in Ukraine, which included the Russian annexation of Crimea, was triggered
by the far-right US- and EU-backed coup in Kiev earlier that year. It brought Russia and the US closer
to a military conflict than at any time since the end of the Cold War, and served to transform Ukraine
into a platform from which provocations and operations could be launched against Russia.
MH17 was shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists but contested by the
Ukrainian government and far-right Ukrainian militias. From the first moment, prior to any investigation,
the crash was seized upon by the US and its allies to denounce Russia as the world's main aggressor
and isolate the regime of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Proving that MH17 was shot down by Russian forces was a major focus of Bellingcat's efforts.
As early as July 28, 2014, Higgins wrote, "The Buk That Could--An Open Source Odyssey," which was
based on poor quality videos, stills and quotes from Ukrainian counterterrorism chief Vitaly Nayda.
Citing communications intercepts he would not release, Nayda claimed that the "launcher rolled into
Ukraine across the Russian border aboard a flatbed truck."
In contrast with Bellingcat's hack work, a 2015 report by the Dutch Safety Board into the MH17
crash is a sober piece of work. The Dutch investigators concluded that the most likely missile was
a Buk of the 9M38 series with a 9N314M warhead. The investigators identified the potential launch
site, based on a 320 square kilometre area, but made no attempt to further define the location or
draw conclusions as to who controlled it.
By 2015, Higgins' propaganda operation had become so discredited that the German news magazine
DerSpiegel was forced to apologise for its uncritical recycling of Bellingcat
allegations that the Russian Defense Ministry manipulated satellite image data to support its position
on MH17. According to Jens Kreise, an expert in digital image forensics, Bellingcat's technique of
"error correction analysis" was "subjective and not based entirely on science." He added, "This is
why there is not a single scientific paper that addresses it." Kreise went on to describe Bellingcat's
work as "nothing more than reading tea leaves."
Immediately after the JIT's MH17 report was released, Higgins took part in an online Atlantic
Council panel discussion. Commenting on Higgins' work, VICE journalist Simon Ostrovsky noted that
Bellingcat gave "a view into the evidence that we wouldn't have understood otherwise... imagine if
there hadn't been that narrative and the lies that were being produced by the Russian MoD [Ministry
of Defence] had a fertile soil in which to grow, in which there wasn't this very public counterweight."
In other words, Higgins/Bellingcat is useful for pumping out propaganda masquerading as "citizen
journalism." The so-called "research collective" is an Internet and social media adjunct of the US
government and NATO. The conclusions of its "research" are determined by Higgins' politics, which
serve the interests of the imperialist powers as they gear up for war against Russia.
Red_Mariner
I notice that on the cable behemoth HBO they are the showing the above mentioned "news program"
Vice News, which is slick and slimy.Great example of very stealthy imperialist propaganda .
thucydide
Thanks for this much needed review of Higgins' work and evolution. It is not surprising that he's been picked up by a big pro-war thinktank, and now works hard every day engineering new conflict and untold suffering.
A quick correction. While Seymour Hersh did publish a piece describing al-Nusra's chemical weapons and sarin production capability, this fact cannot properly be attributed to Hersh. In his piece, Hersh attributes this information to a joint U.S. intelligence assessment, provided to him by a senior US intelligence official. The fact must be attributed to US intelligence, not Hersh himself.
Bob Beal
Thank you for helping detail the mechanics of propaganda. Perhaps editors will open their eyes and question more their reporters' sources, be they think tanks or PR operations.
I would understand that launcher can be transported from Russia. But how it can be transported back
after the tragedy so that nobody saw, despite huge interest in its detection of USA, its allies and
honchos from Provisional government (which probably has a network of spies in the Donetsk territory)
it is much more difficult undertaking, which fails Occam razor. Ukrainian Buks were at the place --
and Russian need to be transported back and forth.
Notable quotes:
"... Maria Zakharova, a spokesperson for the foreign ministry in Moscow, claimed Russian officials had been prevented from playing a full role in the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's (JIT) work. "To arbitrarily designate a guilty party and dream up the desired results has become the norm for our Western colleagues," she said. "The investigation to this day continues to ignore incontestable evidence from the Russian side despite the fact that Russia is practically the only one sending reliable information to them." ..."
"... Ms Zakharova also suggested that the Ukrainian government had been able to influence the inquiry using fabricated evidence. ..."
International prosecutors found separatists were responsible for shooting down the Boeing 777
and killing all 298 people on board on 17 July 2014, during the conflict in eastern
Ukraine .
A report by the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said there was "no doubt" the missile
that downed the plane was brought in from Russia and fired from rebel-controlled territory as militants
sought to fend off attacks by the Ukrainian air force.
Investigators pinpointed the launch site atop a hill in farmland west of Pervomaiskyi, having
traced the convoy carrying the Buk from the Russian border through Donetsk, Torez, Snizhne and on
to the launch site in the hours before MH17 was downed.
Image of Buk-M1 launcher in the vicinity of the MH17 crash
The JIT has reconstructed the weapon's journey using data from rebels' mobile phones, as well
as photos and videos showing it being escorted by pro-Russian rebels wearing unspecified uniforms.
In several tapped phone calls, men's voices are heard discussing the transport of the Buk missile
system from and back to Russia, while audio previously released by Ukrainian officials appears to
show a panicked militant saying
MH17 was shot down
in the mistaken belief it was a military plane.
He tells a superior: "It was 100 per cent a passenger aircraft…there are civilian items, medicinal
stuff, towels, toilet paper."
Journalists arriving at the scene of the missile launch the following day found a scorched patch
of earth measuring 30m by 30m, which could also be seen on satellite images showing caterpillar tracks
nearby.
Hours after MH17 was downed, the Buk was seen being driven back towards the Russian border - missing
one of its four missiles - before the convoy left Ukraine overnight. Shortly after MH17's disappearance,
a post attributed to separatist leader Igor Girkin, a Russian army veteran known as Strelkov, claimed
rebels had shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane.
The swiftly-deleted post on Russian social network VKontakte was accompanied by a video of rising
smoke and said: "We warned them - don't fly in our sky."
Much of the footage cited by the JIT had already been analysed for a
report released in February by investigative citizen journalists in the Bellingcat group.
Its analysis concluded the Buk missile system used to down MH17 was transported into Ukraine by
Russian soldiers with "high-level" authorisation, although it was unclear whether Russian or separatist
fighters operated the weapon after it crossed the border.
An extended and uncensored version of the report was sent to JIT investigators in December, including
the full names and photographs of soldiers said to be involved.
"Although it is likely that the head officials of Russia's Ministry of Defence did not explicitly
decide to send a Buk missile launcher to Ukraine, the decision to send military equipment (with or
without crew) from the Air Defence Forces to Ukraine was likely made at a very high level and, therefore,
the Russian Ministry of Defence bears the main responsibility for the downing of MH17,"
Bellingcat's report concluded.
"This responsibility is shared with separatist leaders of the Donetsk People's Republic and (to
a lesser extent) the Luhansk People's Republic…ultimately, responsibility for the downing of MH17
from a weapon provided and possibly operated by the Russian military lies with its two head commanders:
Minister of Defence Sergey Shoigu and President
Vladimir Putin ."
Separatist groups have denied any involvement in the disaster, while Russian officials have continually
dismissed allegations of soldiers or equipment being deployed in Ukraine.
Maria Zakharova, a spokesperson for the foreign ministry in Moscow, claimed Russian officials
had been prevented from playing a full role in the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's (JIT) work.
"To arbitrarily designate a guilty party and dream up the desired results has become the norm
for our Western colleagues," she said. "The investigation to this day continues to ignore incontestable
evidence from the Russian side despite the fact that Russia is practically the only one sending reliable
information to them."
Ms Zakharova also suggested that the Ukrainian government had been able to influence the inquiry
using fabricated evidence.
In its own investigation, Russian Buk manufacturer
Almaz Antey claimed the deadly missile was fired from Zaroschenskoye and that Ukrainian forces
were stationed there.
"We investigated this and have been able to establish that this was not the launch location, and
moreover that it was controlled by pro-Russian rebels at the time," said Wilbert Paulissen, head
of the Dutch Central Crime Investigation Department.
The JIT said it had only received partial responses to its requests for information from Russian
authorities and had not yet been sent primary radar data cited by officials at the Kremlin.
Comprising prosecutors from the countries with the most passengers on board the flight – the Netherlands,
Australia, Malaysia and Belgium – and Ukraine, the JIT previously said it would "ensure the independence
of the investigation".
The body has primary responsibility for establishing the case for prosecutions after the UN Security
Council failed to adopt a resolution that would have established an international tribunal for prosecuting
those responsible for downing MH17 at a meeting in July 2015.
When questioned by journalists, members of the JIT would not specifically name the militia or
faction responsible for firing the missile but said they were investigating around 100 people linked
to the downing of MH17 or the transport of the Buk missile.
A spokesperson said officials are also looking at the chain of command that led to the disaster,
adding: "Who gave the order to bring the BUK-TELAR into Ukraine and who gave the order to shoot down
flight MH17? Did the crew decide for themselves or did they execute a command from their superiors?"
NYT is clearly a neocon outlet. Very clear demonstration of that it is essentially a part of Hillary
campaign and Hillary made bet of demonizing Russia as a path to the victory in Presidential elections.
President
Vladimir Putin is fast turning
Russia into an outlaw nation. As one of five permanent members of the
United Nations Security Council, his country shares a special responsibility to uphold international
law. Yet, his behavior in
Ukraine and
Syria violates not only the rules intended to promote peace instead of conflict, but also common
human decency.
This bitter truth was driven home twice on Wednesday. An investigative team led by the Netherlands
concluded that the surface-to-air missile system that
shot down a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine in July 2014, killing 298 on board, was sent
from Russia to Russian-backed separatists and returned to Russia the same night. Meanwhile, in Syria,
Russian and Syrian warplanes knocked out two hospitals in the rebel-held sector of Aleppo as part
of an assault that threatens the lives of 250,000 more people in a war that has already claimed some
500,000 Syrian lives.
"... These are not, repeat not, the principles of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), a team of police, prosecutors, and spies from The Netherlands, Ukraine, Malaysia, Belgium, and Australia. They have committed themselves to proving that a chain of Russian military command intended to shoot down and was criminally responsible for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on July 17, 2014, and for the deaths of all 298 people on board. ..."
"... Paulissen may be right. To prove he's right all he has to do is to fill in the gap between the JIT version of what happened and the Russian version of what could not have happened by answering these questions. To convince a court and jury, Paulissen's answers to these questions must be beyond reasonable doubt. ..."
"... Why that target, and not the other two targets, also civil aircraft flying above 10,000 metres within a few minutes of each other and within firing range? Why target an aircraft flying so high, at a constant, level altitude? ..."
"... 20 pieces of shrapnel were recovered, including 2 bowties and 2 cubes ..."
"... The spread or spray of the shrapnel after detonation is not more than 60 degrees. From mapping this spread from the impacts of metal fragments on aircraft panels it is possible to determine the angle of the missile to the aircraft at detonation. This in turn allows the tracking of the missile's approach trajectory and the firing position on the ground. Testing warhead detonation against aircraft panels will also reveal the number and type of shrapnel impacts which ought to be registered if the missile and warhead types have been correctly identified. ..."
"... According to the latest JIT report this week, the number of bowties and cubes has dwindled from four identified in last October's Dutch Safety Board (DSB) report to two, one of each shape. How and why did the other two pieces of evidence disappear in The Netherlands over the past twelve months? How does the JIT explain there was no shrapnel at all in the bodies of the 295 people, crew and passengers, who were behind the cockpit, in the main cabin of the aircraft? ..."
"... The discrepancy in shrapnel count is so large, Malishevsky draws two conclusions – that it was impossible for the missile to have approached from the east and struck head-on; and that the only trajectory consistent with the MH17 shrapnel damage pattern was one in which the missile flew parallel to the aircraft before exploding, and approached from the south, not from the east. ..."
"... The key claim from the Russian side is that for the engine to be as damaged as it was, the warhead must have detonated on the starboard side. And for that to be the outcome, the missile must have approached MH17, and been fired, from the south. ..."
"... Why does it appear that the MH17's port engine – left-side looking forward, compass north for the plane flying east - not impacted by warhead blast or shrapnel? Why are there shrapnel hits on the starboard engine (right-side looking forward , compass south) and why was it deformed so differently? Why has the JIT omitted to analyse the engine positions and report this evidence? ..."
"... What is revealing is how discreet the mainstream mass media have been about the "definitive conclusion" that the "separatists did it with the help of Russia". At least in Europe, the topic was not presented prominently in the press and on the radio, and disappeared right afterwards. ..."
"... It does not matter: the propaganda was intense and relentless right after the incident to blame the usual suspects - and silenced as soon as the gaps in the narrative became so large they could not be dissimulated. ..."
"... without ever having been properly investigated and cleared up ..."
"... Or, for that matter, the Kuwaiti babies tossed out of incubators by Saddam (story invented by a DC pr shop) or the Belgian babies speared by German bayonets in WW1 (British propaganda this time). In a mass media age propaganda is viewed as a vital component of war making which is why all claims from places like Syria and Ukraine should be treated with skepticism. For the R2P crowd represented by Hillary and the ridiculous Samantha Power this propaganda aspect is central, and their compliant allies in the MSM are more than willing to go along. ..."
"... There is a major difference between then and now: the stories about babies tossed on bayonets or out of incubators (or the Serbian extermination camps in Bosnia, or the mass graves of Ceaucescu in Timisoara) were all complete fabrications. ..."
"... proving or disproving a culpability is intrinsically more involved than showing that some major crime is a complete invention. ..."
"... "It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." ..."
"... Now, I'll repeat the most damning, though admittedly non-scientific evidence of all: The U.S. and its lapdog allies were, for months after the event, shrieking about Russian culpability through compliant MSM outlets. Then, suddenly, radio silence. The topic virtually disappeared from the very same MSM outlets as if it were radioactive. ..."
"... We are on trajectory for really bad things. Russia is being demonized – in all quarters: sports, politics, commerce – in a way reminiscent of the worst of the cold war. forget the handbags of the '80s, but the 50/60s. ..."
"... Thank you for this careful analysis. The new Cold War-like hostility to Russia of American media has made objective evaluation especially difficult to come by: ..."
"... It is blaring 24/7 at the NYTimes. Today's edition had a marvelously double-entendred piece on page one, "Hostile Russia looks familiar to Cold War veterans." Much hinges on whether the familiarity lies in properties of the object or, instead, the subject's perceptual grid, a grid the Times is trying very hard to propagate. ..."
"... As far as "not seeing/mentioning a missile"? Yeah, so what? Visibility of targets coming at you from the low/front is limited in all commercial jets. And this assumes the crew was even looking, and not heads down playing with the radio or FMS. Pimping this line make the rest of their narrative immediately suspect. ..."
"... Which is more likely? A giant conspiracy (by people who are demonstratably too stupid to pull it off) by the Ukraine and Nato, to come up with a plan to pin it on the Russians (while demonstrating prior to and subsequently that they really don't need an excuse), or……… ..."
"... Addressing not the issue at hand but the conundrum of "reasonable doubt" (which Helmer invokes at the start of the essay) please read The origins of reasonable doubt : theological roots of the criminal trial by James Q. Whitman. Whitman is at Yale Law School. ..."
"... The fundamental problem with the investigation is that the Dutch, as part of NATO, cannot possibly be expected to be impartial. In the American legal system you are entitled to a jury of your peers. Lawyers go to great lengths to strike individuals from the jury pool who might have biases one way or another. ..."
"... In this case the investigators are acting more like a District Attorneys' office, but even there justice presumes that those in charge of making prosecutorial decisions don't have conflicts of interests. ..."
"... I'd have a lot more faith in the process here if the whole thing were handed off to a neutral third party, assuming such a country could be found. And therein lies the rub … thanks to the neo-liberal program of turning every country into a vassal state for the US, there aren't many candidates left. ..."
"... The only BUKs in the area were in Kiev's hands. Russia has them on radar and they were active at the time. The one supposedly seen from Lugansk was false–the photo they are using for "evidence" has a billboard in the background that has been located as in a Kiev-controlled area. The separatists never had one at all. The real problem here is that one of the prime suspects has veto power over the report. It can *never* be impartial with Ukraine on the investigation team. ..."
"... He's obviously not knowledgeable in the field of aeronautics. A missile closing in on a passenger plane from below, at several thousand kilometers per hour, would be impossible to spot visually until immediately before impact, even if you were looking in the exact field of the visual area that it was occupying (which you wouldn't). ..."
"... Moreover, MH17's cockpit damage shows that the warhead exploded above, portside. But don't let evidence get in the way of "expertise." ..."
"... "everybody's gotta eat" ..."
"... How does the JIT explain the missile trajectory if it was not seen by the pilots? ..."
"... A BUK leaves a spectacular trail from ground to air. No one saw such a trail. And it *is* very spectacular. ..."
"... Prior to Operation Desert Storm, it was reported that Sadam Hussein had amassed 250,000 troops and 1500 tanks on the Saudi Arabian border. Commercial satellite images proved otherwise. The Iraqi's where later accused of taking infants out of incubators and leaving them to die. We now know it was a fabrication courtesy of the PR firm Hill & Knowlton. ..."
"... In 1999 and 2000, the United States would go on to bomb Iraq two to three times a week. The sanctions Bill Clinton imposed on Iraq cost the lives of half a million children under the age of five. When asked during an interview if the price was worth it, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright responded, "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it." ..."
"... The second Iraq war brought us a new set of lies. The cooperation with al Qaeda, who we are now arming in Syria, the uranium yellow cake, the mobile biological weapons labs, the infamous weapons of mass destruction, etc. It estimated than more than a million Iraqi's have died as a result of this butchery. ..."
"... As far as I am aware, the Ukraine and US have not released any of their radar data. The JIT also used information from Bellingcat, a discredited propaganda outlet. In light of all this information, you will have to pardon my "healthy skepticism". I also suggest that you use the term "useful idiot" more lightly. ..."
"... But I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the Dutch ..."
"... And in so doing you are giving the benefit of the doubt to the Ukrainian SBU who the Dutch admit provided them with much of the 'evidence'. Kiev is hardly a disinterested party in this matter. ..."
"... 3) The Ukrainian army did it during an exercise with poorly trained personnel and goofed up. ..."
"... The problem that Helmer and others highlight is that the Dutch investigation is biased: all evidence and even hearsay is interpreted against Russia, all evidence that goes against the "Russia did it" scenario is ignored or minimized, major evidence that would conclusively settle matters is kept under wraps (USA surveillance logs, Ukrainian tower control logs, Russian radar logs). ..."
"... The investigation does not pass the smell test. ..."
"... JIT concluded a BUK TELAR was brought into Eastern Ukraine from Russia. But it did not blame the Russian Federation formaly of having shot down MH17. Dutch politics including Mark Rutte refuse to punish Russia on its role in downing MH17. Current EU sanctions are because the annexation of Crimea and not respecting Minsk agreement. ..."
"... BUK systems, although old, are very advanced and require 6 months to a year of training for its crew to become truly proficient with it. ..."
"... The surmise is that Kiev thought that was Putin's plane, which was in the air at the same time. There's also a report from a mechanic that defected to Russia, that he saw the pilot that did it return saying "it was the wrong plane." AFAIK, that wasn't investigated at all. Kiev has veto power over the report. A genuine investigation is not being conducted at all. ..."
"... The Almaz-Antey presentation confirms MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile, burying once and for all the SU 25 theory, about which regular readers of Russia Insider will know I have always been skeptical. ..."
"... A more credible scenario is that recruits of the Ukrainian army were going through an accelerated training of BUK deployment with inventory of USSR-era equipment, and goofed up. ..."
"... any of the suspects ..."
"... Still pondering why a civilian aircraft was anywhere near a combat zone with such armament present, especially considering some of the tenancies of the combatants involved. ..."
"... Blame will be determined sometime in the future if there are any winners in the ongoing mini World War. The effective use of anti-aircraft weapons allowed the rebels who had no serviceable aircraft to control the air over the battlefield destroying the Ukraine armored attacks leading to the current stalemated trench warfare. A Ukraine military transport was shot down at altitude earlier but for political and monetary reasons civil air transportation continue over the battlefields. This is a classic case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. ..."
"... BUK missile burns its engine out far sooner than what it takes for the missile to reach its target. Which means that there wouldn't have been Top Gun like smoke trail approaching the aircraft but just the missile gliding like a dart without power. ..."
By John Helmer , the
longest continuously serving foreign correspondent in Russia, and the only western journalist to
direct his own bureau independent of single national or commercial ties. Helmer has also been a professor
of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia.
He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself
in Russia. Originally published at Dances
with Bears
You don't need to be an expert in ground-to-air warfare, radar, missile ordnance, or forensic
criminology to understand the three fundamental requirements for prosecuting people for crimes. The
first is proof of intention to do what happened. The second is proof of what could not have happened
amounts to proof that it didn't happen. The third is proof beyond reasonable doubt.
These are not, repeat not, the principles of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), a team of
police, prosecutors, and spies from The Netherlands, Ukraine, Malaysia, Belgium, and Australia. They
have committed themselves to proving that a chain of Russian military command intended to shoot down
and was criminally responsible for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on July 17, 2014,
and for the deaths of all 298 people on board.
The JIT case for Russian culpability hinges on five elements occurring in sequence – that a BUK
missile was launched to the east of the aircraft, and approached it head-on, before exploding on
the port (left) side of the cockpit. Pause, rewind, then reread slowly in order to identify the elements
of intention, causation, and culpability:
the BUK missile was aimed with a target acquisition radar by operators inside a BUK vehicle
at a target flying in the sky and ordered to fire;
they fired from their vehicle parked on the ground facing east towards the aircraft's approach;
the missile flew west and upwards to a height of 10,060 metres;
the warhead detonated;
the blast and the shrapnel tore the cockpit from the main fuselage; destroyed one of the aircraft
engines; and caused the aircraft to catch fire, fall to the ground in pieces, and kill everyone.
On Wednesday afternoon, in the small Dutch town of Nieuwegein, two Dutchmen, one a prosecutor,
one a policeman, claimed they have proof that this is what happened. For details of the proof they
provided the world's press, read
this . Later the same day, in Moscow, a presentation by two Russians from the
Almaz-Antei missile group, one a missile ordnance expert, the other a radar expert, presented their
proof of what could not have happened.
Click to watch
.
The enemies of Russia accept the Dutch proof and ignore the Russian proof. As Wilbert Paulissen,
the Dutch policeman, claimed during the JIT briefing, "the absence of evidence does not prove [the
BUK missile] was not there."
Paulissen may be right. To prove he's right all he has to do is to fill in the gap between
the JIT version of what happened and the Russian version of what could not have happened by answering
these questions. To convince a court and jury, Paulissen's answers to these questions must be beyond
reasonable doubt.
Question 1. ... Why that target, and not the other two
targets, also civil aircraft flying above 10,000 metres within a few minutes of each other and within
firing range? Why target an aircraft flying so high, at a constant, level altitude?
What evidence
is there in the JIT presentation that the BUK and about one hundred men the Dutch claim to have been
involved knew what they were aiming at and intended the result which occurred? A Russian military
source asks: "did the BUK operators know where to direct their radar antenna? A 120-degree angle
is not very large for target interception."
Question 3. When a BUK warhead explodes, it releases about 7,800 metal fragments or shrapnel.
Unique to the BUK warhead, according to the Dutch investigations, as well as to the missile manufacturer
Almaz-Antei, is a piece of metal shaped like a bowtie or butterfly. About one-third of the BUK warhead's
shrapnel – that's about 2,600 pieces of metal – is bowtie or butterfly-shaped. Another third of the
shrapnel is cube-shaped. According to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) papers issued in October 2015,
20 pieces of shrapnel were recovered, including 2 bowties and 2 cubes
BUK WARHEAD SHRAPNEL – BOWTIES AND CUBES
DUTCH SAFETY BOARD INVENTORY AND ANALYSIS OF MISSILE SHRAPNEL
The spread or spray of the shrapnel after detonation is not more than 60 degrees. From mapping
this spread from the impacts of metal fragments on aircraft panels it is possible to determine the
angle of the missile to the aircraft at detonation. This in turn allows the tracking of the missile's
approach trajectory and the firing position on the ground. Testing warhead detonation against aircraft
panels will also reveal the number and type of shrapnel impacts which ought to be registered if the
missile and warhead types have been correctly identified.
According to the latest JIT report this week, the number of bowties and cubes has dwindled
from four identified in last October's Dutch Safety Board (DSB) report to two, one of each shape.
How and why did the other two pieces of evidence disappear in The Netherlands over the past twelve
months? How does the JIT explain there was no shrapnel at all in the bodies of the 295 people, crew
and passengers, who were behind the cockpit, in the main cabin of the aircraft?
According to Mikhail Malishevsky, the Almaz-Antei briefer in Moscow yesterday, test-bed detonations
of the BUK missile at the port position, 1.5 metres from the cockpit, where the Dutch claim the missile
detonated, show many more impact holes and evidence of bowties than the Dutch report they have recovered.
Malishevsky records that in the Dutch analysis reported last year the shrapnel impacts had an average
concentration of 80 per square metre. He says the Dutch are now reporting an average concentration
of 250 per square metre, but with fewer of the BUK warhead's characteristic bowties.
The discrepancy in shrapnel count is so large, Malishevsky draws two conclusions – that it
was impossible for the missile to have approached from the east and struck head-on; and that the
only trajectory consistent with the MH17 shrapnel damage pattern was one in which the missile flew
parallel to the aircraft before exploding, and approached from the south, not from the east.
"The hypothesis of a missile hitting the plane head-on was not credible. There is no way
to explain the lack of fragments [shrapnel] as per the Dutch 3D model…" Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbIPo8dW9b0
-- minute 20:51.
Question 4. ... The key claim from the Russian side is that for the engine to be as damaged as it was, the
warhead must have detonated on the starboard side. And for that to be the outcome, the missile must
have approached MH17, and been fired, from the south.
So the question for Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke (lead image, left) and Dutch policeman Paulissen,
along with the 100 members of the JIT staff, is which engine is which in their evidence? Why
does it appear that the MH17's port engine – left-side looking forward, compass north for the plane
flying east - not impacted by warhead blast or shrapnel? Why are there shrapnel hits on the starboard
engine (right-side looking forward , compass south) and why was it deformed so differently? Why has
the JIT omitted to analyse the engine positions and report this evidence?
A summary of these questions and the answers so far can be plotted on the map of the crash area.
KEY Red line - MH 17. Blue line – firing point at Snizhne (in Russian Snezhnoe), according to the JIT version.
Green line – firing point at Zaroshchenskoe (misspelled in the map), according to Almaz-Antei
version.
Source: http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68376.html
Topographically, between Snizhne (Snezhnoe) in the east and Zaroshchenskoe to the southwest, there
is a distance of less than 25 kilometres. Politically, between them as suspected missile-firing sites
there is all the difference in the world
What is revealing is how discreet the mainstream mass media have been about the "definitive
conclusion" that the "separatists did it with the help of Russia". At least in Europe, the topic
was not presented prominently in the press and on the radio, and disappeared right afterwards.
It does not matter: the propaganda was intense and relentless right after the incident
to blame the usual suspects - and silenced as soon as the gaps in the narrative became so large
they could not be dissimulated.
The MH17 shooting will join the numerous other cases ascribed to dastardly diplomatic opponents:
1) the assassination of Rafi Hariri (blamed on Assad, but evidence implicating Israel not followed
upon);
2) the bungled terrorist attacks in Thailand (blamed on Iran, responsibility of Iranian opposition
highly likely given the evidence);
3) the bus bombing in Bulgaria (blamed on Hezbollah, investigation of involvement of Sunni jihadist
groups abruptly cancelled);
4) the chemical attack in Syria (blamed on Assad, convincingly demonstrated by Hersh to be an
Al-Nusra false flag action);
5) cyber-breach at Sony (blamed on North Korea, evidence points out at an insider job within Sony);
6) cyberattack at OPM (blamed on China without proof);
7) cyberattacks against the Democratic party (blamed on Russia without proof);
Notice how those widely discussed, important cases have sunk into a news black-hole - without
ever having been properly investigated and cleared up .
We will probably never know for sure in our lifetime what happened in all those cases.
Or, for that matter, the Kuwaiti babies tossed out of incubators by Saddam (story invented
by a DC pr shop) or the Belgian babies speared by German bayonets in WW1 (British propaganda this
time). In a mass media age propaganda is viewed as a vital component of war making which is why
all claims from places like Syria and Ukraine should be treated with skepticism. For the R2P crowd
represented by Hillary and the ridiculous Samantha Power this propaganda aspect is central, and
their compliant allies in the MSM are more than willing to go along.
There is a major difference between then and now: the stories about babies tossed on bayonets
or out of incubators (or the Serbian extermination camps in Bosnia, or the mass graves of Ceaucescu
in Timisoara) were all complete fabrications.
Nobody denies that the MH17 was shot down, or that Hariri in Lebanon or Israeli tourists in
Bulgaria were blown up, or that a chemical bomb exploded in Eastern Ghouta. This makes any debunking
somewhat more arduous: proving or disproving a culpability is intrinsically more involved than
showing that some major crime is a complete invention.
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great
publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion
for almost forty years."
He went on to explain:
"It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected
to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared
to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite
and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past
centuries."
- David Rockefeller, Speaking at the June, 1991 Bilderberger meeting in Baden, Germany (a
meeting also attended by then-Governor Bill Clinton and by Dan Quayle
David Rockefeller born June 12, 1915 … likely the most powerful man in the world.
Now, I'll repeat the most damning, though admittedly non-scientific evidence of all: The U.S.
and its lapdog allies were, for months after the event, shrieking about Russian culpability
through compliant MSM outlets. Then, suddenly, radio silence. The topic virtually disappeared
from the very same MSM outlets as if it were radioactive.
That would never have happened had the anti-Russian alliance not discovered information
that severely undercut their original, reflexive claims.
Does anyone believe that this most recent report is other than a feeble attempt to keep the
original, and quite obviously false narrative alive?
I'm guessing it's always been like this? Screech hard and loud about imminent threats (to physical
self or honor) and do so loud and often, claiming any moment to think is close to treason (or
simply cowardice). Note that it will always be harder to refute (finding facts) than to come up
with lies, of which there will be many (and if even a single is correct, it makes the next lie
even better) and keep at it. until there is an actual punishment for doing this, there is no reason
not to. Am I missing something?
We are on trajectory for really bad things. Russia is being demonized – in all quarters: sports,
politics, commerce – in a way reminiscent of the worst of the cold war. forget the handbags of
the '80s, but the 50/60s.
And a complicit and/or childlike media is happy to swallow whatever
official story comes their way. We know – as with any major power – that crazy shit is going down
in, and with Russia (Putin ain't a saint). But poking, and prodding this nuclear bear – as a way
to, among other things, justify $1 trillion in nuclear re-armament – is as foolish as it gets.
DJT is a moron of nth degree. but i just don't believe he will drive us to armed conflict (whether
by proxy or not) with russia. that, alone, would be enough for a vote against HRC. and with the
mess the GOP is in, if HRC get in, she's in for 8 years. #untolddamage.
Thank you for this careful analysis. The new Cold War-like hostility to Russia of American
media has made objective evaluation especially difficult to come by:
Agree, if they really had the goods this would have been blaring 24/7 from Hilary's War Advancement
& Promotion Team, oops I mean CNN. Even simpler though is just to note that when Obama/Hilary
are pressed on what exactly Russia has done overall to deserve the "existential threat" label,
they mumble and finally blurt out ""Crimea".
So I guess a fair plebiscite where 96% voted to rejoin
Russia and a peaceful transition without a single shot fired now qualifies as a threat to the
US. And of course zero mention of the murderous Neo-Nazis we installed in Kiev.
It is blaring 24/7 at the NYTimes. Today's edition had a marvelously double-entendred piece
on page one, "Hostile Russia looks familiar to Cold War veterans." Much hinges on whether the
familiarity lies in properties of the object or, instead, the subject's perceptual grid, a grid
the Times is trying very hard to propagate.
The Russians have a long history of lying their asses off when they (or their minions) eff
up. They are much better at it, after watching Fox News for the past 30 years.
Funny, but their surrogates didn't mind taking the credit for the half dozen or so
Ukrainian
jets zapped by missiles in the couple of months before this incident.
As far as "not seeing/mentioning a missile"? Yeah, so what? Visibility of targets coming at
you from the low/front is limited in all commercial jets. And this assumes the crew was even looking,
and not heads down playing with the radio or FMS. Pimping this line make the rest of their narrative
immediately suspect.
And remember how they were pushing the "Ukrainian SU-25 Theory" before anyone who knows anything
about airplanes shot that one full of holes.
But whatever. Nobody is going to be able to prove anything, since the airplane crashed on Russian
controlled territory
If the conspiracy theorists think the airplane was shot down as a pretext to starting a war
with Russia, answer me this……. Why zap a Malaysian airliner, with no US or British passengers?
All you need is an Internet connection and Flightaware,to know what airplane you are shooting
at.
Which is more likely? A giant conspiracy (by people who are demonstratably too stupid to pull
it off) by the Ukraine and Nato, to come up with a plan to pin it on the Russians (while demonstrating
prior to and subsequently that they really don't need an excuse), or………
A couple of yokels sitting inside a SAM launcher who effed up and zapped the wrong airplane,
who subsequently were made to "disappear"?
more reasons why people shouldn't and no longer do trust 'experts'. it's a meaningless charade
intended to make an agenda credible. when one of the main suspects is one of the lead investigators
and the whole sham of an investigation is led by nato, it's only aim is to increase tensions with
russia. well, it looks like they will finally get the war they have been wishing for when mrs
clinton takes over the white house.
Addressing not the issue at hand but the conundrum of "reasonable doubt" (which Helmer invokes
at the start of the essay) please read The origins of reasonable doubt : theological roots of
the criminal trial by James Q. Whitman. Whitman is at Yale Law School. He published the chapters
separately in various law reviews. Read the last chapter first for an overview and understanding
that he is motivated to get rid of the bogus standard with medieval theological roots– after all,
how many have been wrongly jailed due to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?
Bill Smith, and it's been pretty well debunked as inconsistent with the evidence, but toddlers
need something to believe. Try again, this time with your fingers out of your ears.
This is one thread subject on this otherwise excellent site that I think is absolutely ridiculous.
I can understand putting people to their proof on the evidence, but what exactly is the point
of this article? To prove that the separatists didn't shoot down the plane? Considering that Strelkov
actually bragged about shooting a plane down right after it happened (the post was quickly taken
down, but luckily caching is a thing), and there were witness accounts of a missile battery being
driven out of Luhansk at the same time, I think it's a bit much to suggest that the Ukrainians
did it.
Our policy towards Russia is stupid and short-sighted, as it has been for most of the past
three decades, but our own failings don't make the Russians into saints. They're capable of stupid
and evil decisions just as much as we are. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that weapons,
whether given to proxies or used by the Russians themselves, can shoot the wrong target? There's
a line between being a healthy skeptic and a useful idiot, and there's a lot of people here who
need to look at which side of it they're standing on.
The fundamental problem with the investigation is that the Dutch, as part of NATO, cannot possibly
be expected to be impartial. In the American legal system you are entitled to a jury of your peers.
Lawyers go to great lengths to strike individuals from the jury pool who might have biases one
way or another.
In this case the investigators are acting more like a District Attorneys' office, but even
there justice presumes that those in charge of making prosecutorial decisions don't have conflicts
of interests.
I'd have a lot more faith in the process here if the whole thing were handed off to a neutral
third party, assuming such a country could be found. And therein lies the rub … thanks to the
neo-liberal program of turning every country into a vassal state for the US, there aren't many
candidates left.
Is it really that much of a stretch to think that weapons, whether given to proxies or used
by the Russians themselves, can shoot the wrong target?
Good comment. I don't think any reasonable person has implied that the separatists intentionally
shot down a civilian plane. They thought it was a military plane, and it was a tragic mistake.
I can't comment on all of Helmer's questions, but I can comment on #1. He says that newer BUK
systems don't match what was seen on the ground. Well, it's possible the Russians did not provide
the new variety of BUK systems to the separatists. Maybe they let the separatists use the older
variety, and the Russians kept the newer systems on their own soil.
Regarding question #2. Maybe the pilots didn't see the missile because it was below their field
of vision until the very last second. Or maybe they weren't looking at that part of the sky, so
they didn't see it right away. Or maybe they saw it, and briefly froze, wondering what the heck
is that?
Almaz-Antey alleges that Russia hadn't had any older models in inventory to supply for some
two years before the attack, but that the Ukrainian military hadn't upgraded yet.
The only BUKs in the area were in Kiev's hands. Russia has them on radar and they were active
at the time. The one supposedly seen from Lugansk was false–the photo they are using for "evidence"
has a billboard in the background that has been located as in a Kiev-controlled area. The separatists
never had one at all. The real problem here is that one of the prime suspects has veto power over
the report. It can *never* be impartial with Ukraine on the investigation team.
Thank you!
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would listen to this John Helmer person.
He's obviously not knowledgeable in the field of aeronautics.
A missile closing in on a passenger plane from below, at several thousand kilometers per hour,
would be impossible to spot visually until immediately before impact, even if you were looking
in the exact field of the visual area that it was occupying (which you wouldn't).
And you are expert?!?! SAMs generally attack targets from above, and BUKs are specifically
designed to do so. As an expert in "aeronautics" and ballistics you will no doubt explain to the
audience why that is. Moreover, MH17's cockpit damage shows that the warhead exploded above, portside.
But don't let evidence get in the way of "expertise."
Prior to Operation Desert Storm, it was reported that Sadam Hussein had amassed 250,000 troops
and 1500 tanks on the Saudi Arabian border. Commercial satellite images proved otherwise. The
Iraqi's
where later accused of taking infants out of incubators and leaving them to die. We now know it
was a fabrication courtesy of the PR firm Hill & Knowlton.
In 1999 and 2000, the United States would go on to bomb Iraq two to three times a week. The
sanctions
Bill Clinton imposed on Iraq cost the lives of half a million children under the age of five.
When asked during an interview if the price was worth it, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
responded,
"I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it."
The second Iraq war brought us a new set of lies. The cooperation with al Qaeda, who we are
now arming
in Syria, the uranium yellow cake, the mobile biological weapons labs, the infamous weapons of
mass
destruction, etc. It estimated than more than a million Iraqi's have died as a result of this
butchery.
Libya, the wealthiest country with the highest standard of living in Africa, was the next major
target
of more lies. From Gaddafi bombing his own people to the distribution of Viagra to his troops
so that they
could go on a raping spree. Little mention is made of the bombing of Libya's Great Man-made River
project, the largest aqueduct and network of pipes that supplied water to %70 of the population.
The water
crisis created continues to this day.
The illegal war of aggression on the sovereign state of Syria requires it's own discussion.
I will only
mention the allegation of Assad using sarin nerve gas. Seymour Hersh's reporting would later show
that it
was a false flag carried out to cross Obama's chemical weapons "red line".
This brings us to Ukraine, a country in which the United States spent $5 billion on regime
change. It was coup d'etat that brought in Svobada and Right Sector, both Neo-Nazi parties. From
the fake Russian troop photo's presented by Senator Inhofe, to the invasion of Crimea, a peninsula
that hosts Russia's Sevastopol naval base. If there is any doubt about it being an invasion or
not, it should be noted that not only did Crimean's vote to secede with a 96% majority in 2014,
they overwhelmingly voted for independence both in 1991 and 1994.
As far as I am aware, the Ukraine and US have not released any of their radar data. The JIT
also used information from Bellingcat, a discredited propaganda outlet. In light of all this information,
you will have to pardon my "healthy skepticism". I also suggest that you use the term "useful
idiot" more lightly.
The technical aspects of the two reports are not verifiable by me based on either account so
I cannot say which is more likely based on this article. However I can say that disputing the
shoot-down by a BUK based on the idea that it was unlikely the separatists would choose that plane
and fire at it is about as valid as saying the shoot-down theory is impossible because everyone
knows commercial airliners are shot down only once every decade. The plane WAS shot down. Perhaps
the unsophisticated BUK system was the reason for a commercial airliner being struck.
So we have the Dutch on one side with a potential bias because they are part of NATO and interested
in crucifying the evil Soviets…whoops, Russians at any price. And on the other side we have the
suppliers of the missile and sponsors/supporters of those accused of firing it. Which side is
more likely to fabricate an explanation? Maybe both are lying. But I would tend to give the benefit
of the doubt to the Dutch.
But I would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the Dutch
And in so doing you are giving the benefit of the doubt to the Ukrainian SBU who the Dutch
admit provided them with much of the 'evidence'. Kiev is hardly a disinterested party in this
matter.
Perhaps the unsophisticated BUK system was the reason
BUK systems, although old, are very advanced and require 6 months to a year of training
for its crew to become truly proficient with it.
There are currently three versions of the MH17 case:
1) A motley crew of separatists did it with equipment provided by Russia.
2) An Ukrainian oligarch with his own badly trained militia did it with equipment diverted
from Ukrainian reserves.
3) The Ukrainian army did it during an exercise with poorly trained personnel and goofed up.
There is no incontrovertible evidence for any of those scenarios. Note that (3) would not be
the first time that the Ukrainian army shot down a civilian airplane by mistake; it already did
it in 2001 (look up Siberia Airlines 1812).
The problem that Helmer and others highlight is that the Dutch investigation is biased: all
evidence and even hearsay is interpreted against Russia, all evidence that goes against the "Russia
did it" scenario is ignored or minimized, major evidence that would conclusively settle matters
is kept under wraps (USA surveillance logs, Ukrainian tower control logs, Russian radar logs).
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/geopolitics-is-biggest-enemy-to-finding-truth-on-mh17/
JIT concluded a BUK TELAR was brought into Eastern Ukraine from Russia. But it did not blame
the Russian Federation formaly of having shot down MH17. Dutch politics including Mark
Rutte refuse to punish Russia on its role in downing MH17. Current EU sanctions are because
the annexation of Crimea and not respecting Minsk agreement.
BUK systems, although old, are very advanced and require 6 months to a year of training
for its crew to become truly proficient with it.
Requiring 6-12mnths of training is not exactly an endorsement of sophistication.
That said, what I read (a couple years ago!) and recall about the buk systems is that there is
at least one degraded permissive level that will allow the system to launch a missile, and several
targeting radar/telemetry apparatus (remote/local) that allow the system to function in a degraded
manner -- like if the systems truck with "the meat" in it gets blasted.
My opinion remains that it was a BUK system supplied by the Russians to what was less than
fully qualified separatists, or was subsequently put in the hands of less than qualified operators
who launched on purpose thinking it was the ubiquitous Ukie cargo plane, not realizing it was
a commercial airliners.
Who would do that on purpose? really? This is EXACTLY the kind of idiocy that occurs in war
The surmise is that Kiev thought that was Putin's plane, which was in the air at the same time.
There's also a report from a mechanic that defected to Russia, that he saw the pilot that did
it return saying "it was the wrong plane." AFAIK, that wasn't investigated at all. Kiev has veto
power over the report. A genuine investigation is not being conducted at all.
Zapster, even the BUK mfgr conceded it was shot down with a BUK missile over a year ago. Isnt
it time to give up the imaginary SU-25 confabulation already?
The Almaz-Antey presentation confirms MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile, burying once
and for all the SU 25 theory, about which regular readers of Russia Insider will know I have always
been skeptical.
A more credible scenario is that recruits of the Ukrainian army were going through an accelerated
training of BUK deployment with inventory of USSR-era equipment, and goofed up.
(a) Because so far, all BUK systems in Ukraine, especially at the time of the MH17
downing, have been conclusively identified as Ukrainian ones. There are no conclusive images of
the supposed separatist BUK battery before, during or after the MH17 incident. Despite all radars
monitoring the battlefield…
(b) Because being at war and given the dilapidated state of the Ukrainian army (going back
to the early 1990s), there was an urgent need for personnel, and only fast training was possible.
No careful year-long schooling when the next separatist offensive or much-touted Russian invasion
can strike in a matter of weeks.
(c) Because a training scenario explains the presence of Ukrainian SU25, serving as practice
targets - but BUK radars locked onto the much larger signal corresponding to the MH17.
(d) Because shooting actual missiles when one is not supposed to do, and aiming them at the
wrong target is exactly the kind of error that "green" personnel may commit while stressed in
time of war - but that experienced operators who had time to go through all possible scenarios
recognizing various target types and locking the right ones after months of drill will avoid.
Personally, I do not believe that any of the suspects ever deliberately fired at MH17.
4- Putin did it. After all, the American mass media told us so almost before the airliner hit
the ground.
5- An American clandestine agency (CIA, NSA, Blackwater, etc. did it by supplying planning
and logistical support to their client Ukrainians.
A crime did take place. Since we are uncertain as to who the perpetrators were, let's apply
crime scene logic:
MOTIVE:
Hard to conceive of a motive for Putin or the Russian Federation. The only conceivable result
of such an attack would be to further the Western propaganda effort to demonize Putin and the
separatists and to open the door to increased US military and economic support for Ukraine.
On the other hand the USA (and the Ukrainian government) clearly had the motive to create a
false flag situation to justify expanded intervention, and the US has a long history of doing
so. Gulf of Tonkin, World Trade Center, Syrian gas attacks - to name but a few.
MEANS:
If the plane was downed by a Russian built BUK missile instead of by fighter jets as it first
seemed, then all five suspects could have conceivably have been in possession of the missile and
launch and fire control apparatus. Using an analysis of the attack direction to derive the launch
site is plausible but far from convincing. Both the Russians and the US had their most sophisticated
spy satellites focused on the region and probably knew exactly what happened in real time.
OPPORTUNITY:
The real smoking gun in this affair was the fact that the Ukrainians purposely re-routed the airliner
far south of its normal route, and then disappeared the air traffic controller in charge. Without
this diversion it would not have been possible to target the plane. Was this event planned and
coordinated by one of the US spook agencies or mercenaries under contract or was it solely an
Ukrainian operation? Did the sophisticated American communications ship stationed nearby assist
with logistics?
Somehow I can't buy the argument that it was all an accident.
Clouseau: Listen to me, Hercule, and you will learn something.
Now then, the facts in this case are:
the body of the chauffeur was found in the bedroom of the second maid. Fact!
Cause of death:
Four bullets in the chest. Fact!
The bullets were fired at close range from a .25 caliber Beretta automatic. Fact!
Maria Gambrelli was discovered with the murder weapon in her hand. Fact!
The murder weapon was registered in the name of the deceased, Miguel Ostos, and was kept, mind
you, in the glove compartment of the Ballon Rolls-Royce. Fact!
Now then, members of the household staff have testified that Miguel Ostos beat…
[snaps his pointing stick]
Clouseau: You fool! You have broken my pointing stick! I have nothing to point with now!… have
testified that Miguel Ostos beat Maria Gambrelli frequently.
And now, finally comes the sworn statement of Monsieur and Madame Ballon, as well as all the
members of the staff, each of them with perfect alibis.
Now then, Hercule, What is the inescapable conclusion?
Hercule LaJoy: Maria Gambrelli killed the chauffeur.
Clouseau: What? You idiot! It's impossible. She's protecting someone.
Hercule LaJoy: How do you know that?
Clouseau: Instinct!
Hercule LaJoy: But that facts…
Clouseau: You are forgetting the most important fact – motive.
Note: the previous variant of this comment went to moderation.
You need to understand that after JFK assassination the notion that truth will eventually surface
in such cases is open to review. So a plausible hypothesis might be all we can have. Yes, there is a line "between being a healthy skeptic and a useful idiot", but the evidence
strongly suggests that in this particular case Western MSM promoted version has huge hole in it.
The default suspects according to "quo bono" principle should be Ukraine and the USA, unless
good counterarguments are provided. There are none so far.
Of cause we do not know for sure (and might never get the real facts), but there are several
chunks of evidence that strengthen this "accident into false flag" or "false flag from the very
beginning" hypothesis:
1. Why there were no reports of a smoke trail from the purported missile launch?
2. Strange, never explained, story of Spanish aircontroler twits immediately after the tragedy.
To whom belong pretty alarming twits in the Spanish blog from an air traffic controller working
in Boryspil airport, which completely contradict official Ukrainian and Western MSM story?
3. Testimony of a defector to Russians from Ukrainian air force (technician on the nearby military
airfield I think), who suggested that it was a fighter jet that downed the airliner.
4. The fact that SBU immediately confiscated all the evidence from air control towers and those
records were never presented to international investigation commission.
5. Why the agreement that was reached between Ukraine, Netherlands, Belgium and Australia to
classify the results of investigation ?
6. Strange resistance and procrastination with getting evidence from the crash site. Shelling
of the crash site by the Ukrainian artillery.
7. Why the normal route over Ukraine for the airliner was changed ?
8. Attempts to provide proof of rebels involvement which later were discredited as fabrications
(unverified phone intercepts that experts proved to be fragments of conversations stitched together
to implicate rebels)
9. Striking speed with which Ukrainian and Western MSM just after a few minutes after the plane
disappeared from screens of radars, has started well coordinated and pretty vicious campaign
10. Fake satellites maps at the time of the tragedy. Fake photo of BUK track which allegingly
shoot down MH17.
11. Attempts to capture the crash area, despite previous agreement for ceasefire in this area.
Still pondering why a civilian aircraft was anywhere near a combat zone with such armament
present, especially considering some of the tenancies of the combatants involved.
Dishevled Marsupial…. its not like innocent people are not maimed or killed in gang turf wars
day in and day out….
Blame will be determined sometime in the future if there are any winners in the ongoing
mini World War. The effective use of anti-aircraft weapons allowed the rebels who had no serviceable
aircraft to control the air over the battlefield destroying the Ukraine armored attacks leading
to the current stalemated trench warfare. A Ukraine military transport was shot down at altitude
earlier but for political and monetary reasons civil air transportation continue over the battlefields.
This is a classic case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Wargames between nuclear powers inevitably escalate to use of ICBMs. I am so old I remember
the Civil Defense program that was made obsolete in 1953 when the Soviet Union exploded the first
deployable hydrogen bomb. The USA is losing. Washington DC is befuddled. Western propaganda doesn't
make any sense. There is no indication that there is any comprehension of the danger to mankind
by the insane decision to start a war with Russia or that a miscalculation or accident could cause
a nuclear holocaust not just a 777 shot down.
(i) Ukrainian aircraft (transport planes) tended to approach from that same direction so it
wouldn't exactly be in any manner surprising that the BUK unit would be aligned to wait for them.
120 degree arc is huge when you already have some knowledge of the direction where the radar ought
to point. Since TELAR unit can't tell what exactly it is that it is shooting (you would need TAR
for that) the identification can't really be even expected to happen.
(ii) BUK missile burns its engine out far sooner than what it takes for the missile to reach
its target. Which means that there wouldn't have been Top Gun like smoke trail approaching the
aircraft but just the missile gliding like a dart without power. Given the speed of the objects
the missile would have approached the aircraft at around 1000 m per second – with the diameter
of missile being around 40 cm it would have been difficult to see it just from 100 meters out
– which would have left less time to react than in which human would have been able to react.
So lack of reaction from the crew is exactly what there ought to have been.
(iii) Homing method used in most missiles (including BUK) means that it never flies parallel
to the its target. It is always flying on the basis of ' constant bearing, reducing range
' navigation (i.e. proportional navigation) – you may want to read about that. Also given
the semi-active radar homing used in BUK if the radar (i.e. the launch vehicle) would have been
on the side of the aircraft then it is very unlikely that the missile would have been headed for
the nose either. Lack of found shrapnel is not particularly surprising either as site was unsecured
for quite a while.
And it wasn't like JIT would have ignored the Zaroshchenskoe possibility. It was investigated.
But nothing to support it was found. Furthermore captured rebel communications made it clear that
(i) the locality was either in partial or total rebel control and that (ii) no missile launch
was witnessed. Given that the the launch plume (& burned field) has been located via several different
images provided by JIT it is quite clear where the launch occurred.
This concentration on Buk missile and exclusions of other possibilities has IMHO one serious
problem: complete absence of witness reports of the missile launch. This is a pretty densely populated
area and Buk missile launch produces dense smoke trace clearly visible from the ground. The supposed
launch happened during daytime in fair weather conditions. Huge, dense smoke trace from Buk missile
launch can't be hidden in such a conditions, can it ? It should be visible for at least ten minutes
or more before dissipating.
But there is no witness reports, no photos, nothing. I never head that launch site was located
"via several different images provided by JIT" BBC tried soon after the tragedy and have a correspondent
on the ground explicitly searching for it for a week or so. They failed.
Fighter jet hypothesis is somehow swiped under the carpet despite the testimony of military
aircraft technician who defected to Russians and Russian radar data that had shown a second (military,
no transponder) plane in vicinity at the time of shooting.
As for "Ukrainian aircraft (transport planes) tended to approach from that same direction so
it wouldn't exactly be in any manner surprising that the BUK unit would be aligned to wait for
them. " this is questionable explanation. There were multiple planes in this area flying at high
altitudes the same day, so the selection of the target and timing looks bizarre. Why not an earlier
plane, why not a later plane ?
Had you familiarized yourself with the JIT report you would have noticed that they had witness
reports, as well as photos depicting the smoke plume from several different angles. Also it is
quite likely that the sound people believed at the time have heard as 'jet engine' noise was actually
noise from the missile's rocket engine. So that kinda leaves your version full of holes. And it
kinda depends on the prevailing weather as to how long the smoke trail will persist –
link
You can see (closer to the end) the trail starting to disperse immediately. And oddly enough for
your story there were reporters who had no trouble locating the burned of patch of field following
the photos and witness reports.
The fighter jet theory is just nonsense. Belongs to the same category as the 'Spanish air traffic
controller' story. There is nothing in Russian radar data that would hint of a presence of another
aircraft. Only additional detection occurs after the incident has occurred which means that instead
of being an aircraft it was likely just debris from the MH17. That Russians claimed it would have
been an Su-25 was a rather dishonest act.
As to why MH17 was shot down and not any of the others. In all likelyhood no one intended to
shoot it down. So that falls to the category of bad luck (in part of the crew and passengers of
MH17).
While your points about witnesses may have merit, the video falls in the category of "web evidence"
as it may have been doctored and hence is not reliable.
Again, my point is that like in case of JFK assassination we might never know that truth. So your
supreme confidence is very suspect.
I see you as a hardened type of information warrior not a person who try to dig out the truth.
You are fixed on a single version no matter what evidence is available and discard any conflicting
"separatists did it" evidence.
BTW I do not exclude any possibilities: it can be separatists, it can be Ukrainian Buk, it
can be a fighter jet. But need to see all augments on the table, not a selective set supporting
a single most convenient to the dominant parties in the investigation. And weight all three hypothesis.
And Ukrainians and the USA should be considered primary suspects due to obvious benefits they
got from the tragedy. Absence of Russian citizens among victims is for me a kind of alarming fact
by itself as it allowed to exclude Russians from the investigation and pointing in the direction
of "false flag".
Moreover the whole investigation became essentially an exercise in proving "separatists did
it", despite the fact that Ukrainian authorities were clear beneficiary of the event and Provisional
government consisted of very dangerous and reckless people (especially Parubiy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy
) .
BTW it was separatists that provided black boxes of the aircraft to investigators and much
of the evidence were collected and guarded by them. And it was Ukrainians that shelled the area
to prevent investigators from working after the tragedy.
Also any investigation that uses Bellingcat materials should be automatically labeled as a
propaganda exercise (or disinformation war, if you wish). Think about it…
Also Parry points out that exact location of Ukrainian Buks at the moment of the tragedy were
never revealed by investigators. If this is not a clear bias, I do not know what is.
Where is the map with the location of Ukrainian units and radar on the day of the tragedy,
I would like to ask you? Where are transcripts of communication of Ukrainian military and Dnepropetrovsk
air traffic controllers for this day?
The JIT video report on the MH-17 case, which was released on Wednesday, also didn't address
questions about the location of several Ukrainian Buk missile batteries that Dutch (i.e. NATO)
intelligence placed in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, the day that MH-17 was shot down.
A finding from the Dutch intelligence service, MIVD, released last October, said the only high-powered
anti-aircraft missile systems in eastern Ukraine at that time, capable of bringing down MH-17
at 33,000 feet and killing all 298 people onboard, belonged to the Ukrainian military, not
the rebels.
Dismissing 'Spanish air traffic controller' story shows your true colors, as this event happened
just after the shooting, twits were in Spanish which would be atypical of Russian and Ukrainian
three-letter agencies, and as such has less chances to be a planted disinformation.
That there is no witnesses is odd. A couple of factors though.
I think the rocket engine has a 14 second burn time (depending on model)
14 seconds at Mach 2.7 is approximately 12.8 km though it would be slightly
less due to the acceleration stage.
So if a BUK missile was launched more than 12/13 kilometres from the
target there would be no smoke plume as it gets close to the target.
According to the original investigation report there was heavy cloud
to the south of the crash site and showers. I think that weather report
was for midday on the 17th.
But showers and cloud would greatly reduce viability as far as the smoke
plume.
In the original report put out by Almaz-Antey the possible launch site
at that time may have been covered by heavy cloud and showers.
"... In the Dutch "Telegraph" an article has been published in which it is announced that it was all a tragic mistake explained by low-skilled Buka operators who were under stress. ..."
"... Tomorrow in the Dutch "Telegraph" appears new material about the downing over the Donbas of the Malaysian Boeing MH-17. There has been made an announcement, in which experts are referred to, that states that the Boeing was shot down accidentally (!), that it was "a huge, tragic mistake" and that no one at all had intended to shoot down the Boeing, only those people who were manning the BUK had low skill and had found themselves in a stress situation. In short, they fired a rocket at the Boeing by mistake. ..."
"... What I find hard to believe is that if these accusations had been made against the separatist militia or the Russian military, then the tone of this discussion would have been otherwise. Such a tone, however is fully appropriate in the Western mass media when relating to Ukrainian anti-aircraft operatives who had been approximately deployed at that place and at that time. There are photos and videos. ..."
"... It would be profoundly astonishing to me if there was even the slightest move toward Ukraine accepting responsibility, because of all Poroshenko's accusatory rhetoric and the eager baying of the western press, the British being the worst of the lot. The west would have to eat too much crow, while Ukraine would be the object of both disgust for its deliberate deception and renewed lawsuits by relatives of the dead. They've gone way too far to reverse themselves now. Fascinating, nonetheless. ..."
In the Dutch "Telegraph" an article has been published in which it is announced that it
was all a tragic mistake explained by low-skilled Buka operators who were under stress.
Tomorrow in the Dutch "Telegraph" appears new material about the downing over the Donbas of
the Malaysian Boeing MH-17. There has been made an announcement, in which experts are referred
to, that states that the Boeing was shot down accidentally (!), that it was "a huge, tragic mistake"
and that no one at all had intended to shoot down the Boeing, only those people who were manning
the BUK had low skill and had found themselves in a stress situation. In short, they fired a rocket
at the Boeing by mistake.
What I find hard to believe is that if these accusations had been made against the separatist
militia or the Russian military, then the tone of this discussion would have been otherwise. Such
a tone, however is fully appropriate in the Western mass media when relating to Ukrainian anti-aircraft
operatives who had been approximately deployed at that place and at that time. There are photos
and videos.
Extremely interesting, and quite a variation on what I thought would be the verdict; "We may never
know". But is this actually stipulating that it was non-separatist Ukrainian personnel who were
responsible? I don't see that – just 'stressed-out, poorly-trained Buka operators'. That could
be anyone.
It would be profoundly astonishing to me if there was even the slightest move toward
Ukraine accepting responsibility, because of all Poroshenko's accusatory rhetoric and the eager
baying of the western press, the British being the worst of the lot. The west would have to eat
too much crow, while Ukraine would be the object of both disgust for its deliberate deception
and renewed lawsuits by relatives of the dead. They've gone way too far to reverse themselves
now. Fascinating, nonetheless.
But is this actually stipulating that it was non-separatist Ukrainian personnel who were responsible?
The translation reads:
Such a tone, however is fully appropriate in the Western mass media when relating to Ukrainian
anti-aircraft operatives…
Are they classifying separatists as "Ukrainians" when using the term "Ukrainian anti-aircraft
operatives"? Wouldn't they have written "Russian backed separatist anti-aircraft operatives" if
they had meant those opposed to Kiev rule, or are the "Russian backed separatists" now recognized
by the "Telegraph" as being Ukrainian citizens, which they are, of course de jure .
Which means
Ukraine's actions will come under close scrutiny once again, and in this instance the plaintiffs
have plenty of evidence, since it was broadly agreed at the outset that Ukraine bore responsibility
for its own airspace.
Now, hopefully, there will be some questions asked about Ukraine's odd approach
to record-keeping and its determination to control aircraft without any primary radars available.
Interesting Timeline of how the downing of MH17 was first reported in the Ukrainian media. Basically,
the Ukrainian government spokesman announced that the rebels had a BUK, but just at the time the
Malaysian flight was coming down.
"The headline at 17:26 EEST translates to "NSDC said that
militants have equipment that can hit planes at a high altitude." The headline at 17:49 translates
to "Source: A passenger jet was shot down in Donetsk region." So, it is interesting that an hour
after MH17 crashed and 23 minutes before they (and probably most other news) announced that a
passenger jet was shot down, NSDC and Ukrainian Pravda announced that separatists suddenly now
possess a Buk, which can reach a passenger jet."
Very interesting indeed, since it implies premeditation. And since it is one of the few Ukrainian
statements which was decisively refuted by western intelligence.
In this scheme adopted by West "who did it" does not matter, because when the truth eventually surface,
the necessary effect was already achieved.
Notable quotes:
"... MH17 was just another opportunity to justify sanctions against Russia. Tank the Russian economy, promote a coup. Innit? Except the West and particularly the US are stuck in their own echo chamber. ..."
"... Anyone even mildly critical of their strategy had seen the way the wind is blowing or has been forced out. Thinktankland has been gutted of critical thought, ironically to the detriment of the US itself. A great example of perfect short term thinking that dominates western thinking and long term thinking based on false premise. ..."
Naah, you follow the way forged by the Dutch Safety Board in investigating what brought down MH17:
you decide that the Russians are to blame and then you look for and put out the evidence that
leads to your chosen decision and ignore all other evidence that leads away from your belief.
Well that's what the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in the Hague did
with Milosevic. The 'surprise' finding in the Karadzic judgment that one of the Stooges posted
recently is anything but surprising, but that's not the point. It is neutralizing a 'threat' for
a determined time frame to take them out of a political equation and make way for more pliable
actors.
MH17 was just another opportunity to justify sanctions against Russia. Tank the Russian
economy, promote a coup. Innit? Except the West and particularly the US are stuck in their own
echo chamber.
Anyone even mildly critical of their strategy had seen the way the wind is blowing or has
been forced out. Thinktankland has been gutted of critical thought, ironically to the detriment
of the US itself. A great example of perfect short term thinking that dominates western thinking
and long term thinking based on false premise.
Dutch media say there are no further details because both parties have agreed to secrecy.
A memorial service was held for the victims on Sunday near Schiphol.
Under the Montreal Convention, which regulates air travel, airlines must pay damages of up to
about $145,000 (£109,000) to victims' families, regardless of the circumstances of a crash.
Barnes also ignored the warning from the state lawyer, Catherine Follent. Read her statement in full
here . In written testimony she told the coroner: "as to the manner of deaths then, in our submission
it would be appropriate for your Honour to adopt the findings of the Dutch Safety Board as to the
source and mechanics of the detonation, in addition to finding that the deaths of the New South Wales
passengers were the result of the actions of another person or persons."
Follent (right) also told the coroner, according to a SkyNews report: "It would be inappropriate
for the coroner to declare the deaths were a result of 'the action of another person or persons',
as criminal investigations are still under way."
Coroner Barnes (below, left) was asked to explain why his claims lacked evidence and contradicted
what his counsel had testifed he could judge. Follent (centre) was asked the same question. Barnes
and Follent said through Angus Huntsdale (right), a press officer for the coroner: "Ms Follent did
not make the remarks." Also, according to Huntsdale, "she didn't do an interview with Sky News or
any other media."
The SkyNews report of Follent's remarks was published on May 17, the day of the Barnes inquest.
Days later, on May 23, when Barnes and Follent were asked to clarify what she had said, they and
Huntsdale were provided with the
story link . Huntsdale did not deny the media report; in guarded comments he left open the possibility
that Follent had made her warning in open court, for which no transcript has been made available.
But several hours after Barnes, Follent and Huntsdale had reviewed what Follent had been quoted as
saying, her warning to the coroner was removed from the SkyNews version of the story.
The coroner and his associates were unable to remove Follent's quote entirely. This is how it
appeared originally, on
May 17 .
Barnes and Follent were asked to explain why they had imposed a secrecy order on the evidence,
and to identify the sources of the documents they had classified. They replied through Huntsdale:
"The documentary evidence included portions of the Dutch Safety Board's report, the reports of the
deaths to the coroner by NSW Police, two statements of Australian Federal Police officers providing
an update on the status of the investigations (including the Dutch Safety Board and criminal investigations)
and forensic pathology reports."
One of the Australian Federal Police (AFP) statements, dating from last November, had been tested
in the Victorian Coroner's Court in December. Kept secret in Sydney last week, this statement was
publicly accessible in Melbourne five months earlier. At that time AFP Detective Superintendent Andrew
Donoghoe (pictured above) said the evidence on what caused the downing of MH17 and the deaths of
the passengers and crew was inconclusive.
Donoghoe also said : "it was also
necessary that other scenarios – such as the possibility that MH17 was shot down by another type
of missile, or that it was shot down from the air – must be ruled out convincingly." Donoghoe repeated
the point in an interview outside the courtroom, adding this "is a tougher standard than the DSB
report."
By gagging Donoghoe from testifying as a witness, and keeping his 2015 testimony secret, Barnes
has claimed the DSB report warranted his conclusion there had been deliberate aiming of a missile
at MH17 and intentional "mass murder". Barnes and Follent refuse to identify what parts of the DSB
report they relied on for this conclusion.
Instead, Barnes ordered a DSB videotape to be played in court. Watch it
here .
The original DSB videoclip runs for 19:58 minutes. But according to Huntsdale, the coroner's spokesman,
"the first 15 minutes of the clip were played. It wasn't necessary to play the remainder of the video
because it went beyond the scope of the coroner's inquiry."
Did Coroner Barnes decide that the last 5 minutes of the tape were unnecessary, he was asked,
and why. According to Huntsdale, "the NSW State Coroner made his findings on the basis of the documentary
material tendered…coroners do not provide additional commentary on their cases outside of court."
The missing five minutes of the DSB tape which Barnes suppressed contain two charges by the DSB
chairman, Tjibbe Joustra.
The Dutch official blames the Ukrainian government for failure to close the airspace and for putting
MH17 at risk. "Ukraine had sufficient information to close the airspace to civil aviation prior to
July 17, " Joustra said. He also criticized the operator of MH17, Malaysia Airlines, for ignoring
the risks and flying through the conflict zone.
On Saturday, as Skinner was advertising his claims against Russia in the Australian papers and
stalling his claims against Malaysia Airlines in the Sydney court, the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib
Razak
announced his own agreement on MH17 with President Putin directly.
"'I understand and feel the sadness and pain experienced by the families of the victims. I lost
my step-grandmother, Puan Sri Siti Amirah Prawira Kusuma in the tragedy,' said Najib in a post on
his website Saturday evening. 'I see that we have started on positive steps towards seeking justice
for the family members and victims of MH17 when the Russian President and I reached an agreement
that follow-up action will be determined after the results of the investigation are presented by
the Joint Investigation Team in October. I pray that the families of all the victims remain patient
in facing the challenges,' said Najib."
According to a
spokesman
for the Dutch prosecutors, who are leading the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), there will be
no JIT report in October. Alex morfesis ,
May 30, 2016 at 6:50 pm
Oh thank goodness…I was worried they were going to tell the public the truth…
I just skimmed Capt Rogers III, commander of the Vincennes, in the wiki article. He was not
reprimanded or relieved of his command for the shoot down of the civilian airliner. However his
next assignment was a shore position and he retired after those last 2 years in 1991. Punishment
was going from fast track to earlier than expected, honorable retirement.
"... An Australian coroner and a firm of Sydney, Australia, lawyers have taken the global lead in fabricating criminal charges and billion-dollar compensation claims for the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 - without producing evidence. Michael Barnes (lead image), a former tabloid journalist and now coroner for the state of New South Wales, ruled last week that MH17 had been shot down in a "deliberate" act of "mass murder" by "firing a missile equipped with an exploding warhead at the jetliner". The coroner accepted testimony from the Crown Solicitor assisting the inquest who testified that "certain persons of interest have been identified" as the murderers…. ..."
John Helmer.net (via Russia Insider): MH17 CORONER MICHAEL BARNES, AUSTRALIAN LAWYERS IN HEAD-ON
CRASH WITH THE RULES OF EVIDENCE http://johnhelmer.net/?p=15710
An Australian coroner and a firm of Sydney, Australia, lawyers have taken the global lead
in fabricating criminal charges and billion-dollar compensation claims for the crash of Malaysia
Airlines Flight MH17 - without producing evidence. Michael Barnes (lead image), a former tabloid
journalist and now coroner for the state of New South Wales, ruled last week that MH17 had been
shot down in a "deliberate" act of "mass murder" by "firing a missile equipped with an exploding
warhead at the jetliner". The coroner accepted testimony from the Crown Solicitor assisting the
inquest who testified that "certain persons of interest have been identified" as the murderers….
(a) prevent the investigation from widening
beyond the present hazy conclusions offered by the DSB, and
(b) suppress any mention of Ukrainian culpability, is telling.
What the west would like to arrive at is a situation in which it can continue to blame Russia,
but does not have to prove it. It would be like gold for the Barnes charges to get in front of
the ECHR, but there seems little hope of that as it appears to have been just a grandstanding
stunt, and the ECHR has already warned that it will not hear it.
"... Dutch investigators think it might take ten years to prosecute the guilty parties. Also, there are no satellite images , [note the wording], because it was cloudy on the day of the disaster. Apparently the procedure is this: The Dutch secret services MIVD can get a briefing from their American counterparts. If the Dutch MIVD then makes a report of these briefings it can be used as evidence. ..."
"... The West claims that there are no satellite images. Is this a weasel-worded statement? No pictures = no optical satellite pictures. Word by word true, but they conveniently dont mention the radar-based or SIGNINT satellite recordings? ..."
"... But there were also many radar-based satellites. ..."
"... The US military has two systems for high resolution radar IMINT: the Lacrosse (ONYX) system of which currently only one satellite, Lacrosse 5 (2005-016A) is left on-orbit, and the radar component of the Future Imagery Architecture (known as TOPAZ), consisting of three satellites: FIA Radar 1, 2 and 3 (2010-046A, 2012-014A and 2013-072A). These systems should be capable of providing imagery with sub-meter resolutions, and like optical imagery, they can be used to look for the presence of missile systems in the area. They have the added bonus that they are not hampered by cloud cover, unlike optical imagery. ..."
"... Given what was happening in the area around this time, and the strong concern of NATO and the EU about this, it is almost certain that imagery of the area was collected by these US, German and French satellite systems. ..."
"... Just when you think that Yahoo is a shit-river of lies, they run this story… and from the Boston Globe! ..."
"... Americans are said to be ignorant of the world. We are, but so are people in other countries. If people in Bhutan or Bolivia misunderstand Syria, however, that has no real effect. Our ignorance is more dangerous, because we act on it. The United States has the power to decree the death of nations. – quote from the above referenced article. ..."
Dutch investigators think it might take ten years to prosecute the guilty parties. Also,
there are no satellite images , [note the wording], because it was cloudy on the day of the disaster.
Apparently the procedure is this: The Dutch secret services MIVD can get a briefing from their
American counterparts. If the Dutch MIVD then makes a report of these briefings it can be used
as evidence. They also have 5 billion webpages to cherry pick from.
The West claims that there are no satellite images. Is this a weasel-worded statement?
No pictures = no optical satellite pictures. Word by word true, but they conveniently don't mention
the radar-based or SIGNINT satellite recordings?
But there were also many radar-based satellites. From the article:
2. Radar IMINT
The US military has two systems for high resolution radar IMINT: the Lacrosse (ONYX) system
of which currently only one satellite, Lacrosse 5 (2005-016A) is left on-orbit, and the
radar component of the Future Imagery Architecture (known as TOPAZ), consisting of three satellites:
FIA Radar 1, 2 and 3 (2010-046A, 2012-014A and 2013-072A). These systems should
be capable of providing imagery with sub-meter resolutions, and like optical imagery, they can
be used to look for the presence of missile systems in the area. They have the added bonus that
they are not hampered by cloud cover, unlike optical imagery.
Apart from the USA, the German military also operates a radar satellite system, the SAR-Lupe
satellites. The French military likewise operates its own radar satellite system, the Hélios
system. Japan operates the IGS system (which includes both optical and radar satellite
versions).
All of these satellites made passes over the Ukraine at one time or another on July 17 2014,
so all of them might have provided useful imagery. FIA Radar 3 made a pass right over the
area in question near 11:43 UT for example, some 1.5 hours before the tragedy. FIA Radar 2
made a pass over the area at 18:00 UT, 4.5 hours after the shootdown. These are just a few
examples.
Given what was happening in the area around this time, and the strong concern of NATO and
the EU about this, it is almost certain that imagery of the area was collected by these US, German
and French satellite systems.
The article has more interesting information about these satellites.
'Americans are said to be ignorant of the world. We are, but so are people in other countries.
If people in Bhutan or Bolivia misunderstand Syria, however, that has no real effect. Our ignorance
is more dangerous, because we act on it. The United States has the power to decree the death of
nations. " – quote from the above referenced article.
Agence-France Press an article of which that Guardian dutifully reproduced really lost their heads
in anti-Russian hysteria if they cite Bellingcat as a source of information for investigators. Bellingcat
is a propaganda outlet and would be discarded as a source of information by anybody with at least high
school education. It would be funny if it is not so tragic. By propagating this propagna
outlet nonsense they just reveal their real position and aversion to truth. Welcome to Ministry
of Truth, this type in NATO incarnation.
Notable quotes:
"... Bellendcrap more like, a bunch of nutjobs with prejudice aforethought decide to trawl the web for claptrap that support their daft notions. The Dutch authorities should not pander to groups such as these and keep in mind that history can be a cruel judge. ..."
"... Yep, Belling cat seems to be the Langley paper boy on this one. All their sat info and high res pics just turned out to be no match for a Google search! Uncle Sam just took their target audience to be truly dumb and dumbed down... ..."
"... Yes US relying on Bellingcat and other social media. The US have not submitted their reports. The Kiev regime either; they sit on the records in the control tower. ..."
"... NATO ships and aircraft had the Donetsk and Luhansk regions under total radar and electronic surveillance whilst they had a 10-day exercise code named BREEZE 2014 in Black Sea. The exercise, which included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft such as the Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), coincided with the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine, some 40 miles from the Russian border. The U.S. Army has revealed that the 10-day exercise involved commercial traffic monitoring . It can be assumed that commercial traffic monitoring included monitoring the track of MH-17. ..."
"... The essential problem is that people say when you look at the media this is an investigation led by the Dutch. Well in fact its not led by the Dutch. Its led by Ukrainian investigation together with the Dutch people. Its delegated from Kiev to the Netherlands for a period of a year. Why is it taking so long? It is taking so long because they are not finding what they were looking for. And that must be a BUK, a rocket installation from the separatist side. And they are not finding anything truthful about it . (Joost Niemoller, Dutch journalist) ..."
Clear evidence of Ukrainian compliance in this murder - however expect Ukrainian failure to
admit responsibility to continue endlessly. Stare organised terrorism, sabotage, default on debts,
murder of political opponents & COVER-UP is a clear part of Ukrainian strategy. Concoction of
outrageous stories to cover-up the murder is a part of Bellingcat strategy as well. Not only Ukraine
didn't block the war zone airspace, its air traffic control directed the liner there to be shot
down by a fighter waiting in in ambush. All that to simply point the finger at Russia.
All those "investigations" are mere window dressing, and all the involved know it. That won't
be the first time Ukraine shot down a civilian airliner either. They won't get away with 15 million
compensation this time though.
TonyBlunt
4 Jan 2016
18:36
6 7 At last the Kiev Government has, reluctantly, told us why it could not provide any
radar data in the MH17 investigation. Because the Ukraine's two primary radar stations were down
for repairs on the day MH17 came down. So why did they not tell us that a year and a half ago?
Perhaps the LangleyBots can enlighten us.
Still no excuse forthcoming on why Ukraine cannot provide their full air traffic control recordings.
The ones the Ukrainian FSB siezed. Ah well. Maybe in a year or two.
This things can hardly be named citizen journalism. From wikipedia:
In 2015, Higgins
partnered with the Atlantic Council
to co-author the report Hiding
in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine which examined direct Russian military involvement in
Ukraine.
. In June 2015 on
the invitation of former Belgium Prime Minister
Guy Verhofstadt,
Higgins together with his report
co-author Atlantic Council's Maks Czupersk
i presented
Hiding in Plain Sight at the European Parliament
alongside Russian opposition figure Ilya
Yashin and former Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov.
[11]
From wikipedia as well:
In February 2009,
James L. Jones, then-chairman of the Atlantic Council, stepped down
in order to serve as President Obama's new National Security Advisor
and was succeeded
by Senator Chuck Hagel.[3]
In addition, other Council members also left to serve the administration:
Susan Rice as ambassador to the UN
,
and Anne-Marie Slaughter as Director of Policy Planning at the State Department.
Four years later, Hagel stepped down to serve as US Secretary of Defense.
The Atlantic Council has influential supporters, with former NATO Secretary General Anders
Fogh Rasmussen calling the Council a "pre-eminent think tank" with a "longstanding reputation",
[5] .
Surely a Russian "citizen journalist working with the Eurasian Integration council whose members
have worked for the Russian minister of defense and the FSB would not be referred as a citizen
journalism anywhere.
No so Psygone. The criminal investigation in Australia - that will affect compensation payments
- thinks the Dutch crash investigation inadequate. See below.
According to the Dutch Safety Board, Russia and the Ukraine refuse to provide vital images
of the MH17 disaster stating that they were "erased" or that are no images due to "maintenance",
the Telegraaf reports.
Safety Board spokesperson Wim van der Weegen told the newspaper that the Ukrainian authorities
informed them that the primary radar stations were not working on the day of the crash, July 14th
last year, due to routine maintenance.
Refusing to hand over these images may well hamper the criminal investigation into who is responsible
for the downing of the Malaysia Airlines flight.
According to the newspaper, defense and criminal law experts call the countries actions unbelievable
and suspicious.
The headline is intentionally misleading. It is Ukraine that now says the radar data was erased
due to maintenance, not Russia. Russia has complied fully already and released a fully radar data
presentation on July 21st, 2014. The real story here is that Safety Board spokesperson Wim van
der Weegen told the newspaper that the Ukrainian authorities informed them that the primary radar
stations were not working on the day of the crash, July 14th last year, due to routine maintenance.
Ukraine is hiding the truth. Link to Russian radar presentation from 4 days after MH-17 was shot
down. To watch the full Russian radar presentation simply Google the phrase " Russian Ministry
of Defence Briefing on MH-17 Boeing 777"
The official Australian investigation into the cause of the crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17
have accused the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) of failing to provide "conclusive evidence" of what
exactly destroyed the aircraft, and say that Russia did not shoot down the plane despite accusations
to the contrary from DSB.
The senior Australian policeman investigating the MH17 crash, Detective Superintendent Andrew
Donoghue, testified in an international court recently saying that a "tougher standard than the
DSB report" is required before the criminal investigation can identify the weapon that caused
the crash. Donoghue also testified that ten months after the crash, only half of the planes fuselage
fragments were handed over for inspection and that "some fragments were not consistent with debris
of the aircraft".
Having found a link to the heights of aircraft shot down over Eastern Ukraine prior to the
downing of MH17,
You haven't. You've found a graphic that show the service ceiling for the aircraft, not the height
they were at when they were shot down. For example it shows MH17 at 43000 feet - it was shot down
at FL330 (33000 ft).
I had not realized until now that in month prior to the downing of MH17, a transport plane
was shot down at nearly 40,000 feet.
Thats because its not true. See above.
With that sort of critical analysis and attention to detail, maybe you should consider working
for bellingcat?
You're looking at the wrong sources Alderbaran. That Ilyushin was shot down on a landing approach
at the Lugansk airport. That AN-26 was also in a range of MANPADS and there is a video of that
shot down and there is no characteristic BUK ( or other powerful missile) trail on it. There is
also a video available with an interview with one of the survived crew members. They were delivering
supplies to encircled troops at the border and you can hardly drop those from higher than 3000-4000
ft.
You have misjudged that graphic that is showing the service ceiling of those aircraft and not
an altitude where they were hit (which is also wrong, Su-25 has a ceiling of 10.000 m or 33.000
ft).
"Everyone, apart from a few lost souls, now accept that a Russian BUK missile system brought
down MH17 and we are at the stage of identifying the crew members."
Everyone who had time to look into it properly now accepts that it was an old model of Buk
which was manufactured in Ukraine and was no longer in possession of the Russian Army.
It is also a common knowledge that the original "evidence" provided by "Bellingcat" amounts
to nothing more than a baseless speculation.
Bellendcrap more like, a bunch of nutjobs with prejudice aforethought decide to trawl the
web for claptrap that support their daft notions. The Dutch authorities should not pander to groups
such as these and keep in mind that history can be a cruel judge.
I am still surprised that Uncle Sam has not produced some sharp, detailed images of the
border. When they want to, they can but this time no. Bellingcat seems to enjoy doing this research
but it all comes out like some Robert Ludlum novel.
Yep, Belling cat seems to be the Langley paper boy on this one. All their sat info and
high res pics just turned out to be no match for a Google search! Uncle Sam just took their
target audience to be truly dumb and dumbed down...
Yes US relying on Bellingcat and other social media. The US have not submitted their
reports. The Kiev regime either; they sit on the records in the control tower.
Consider this:
NATO ships and aircraft had the Donetsk and Luhansk regions under total radar and electronic
surveillance whilst they had a 10-day exercise code named BREEZE 2014 in Black Sea. The exercise,
which included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft such as the
Boeing EA-18G Growler and the Boeing E3 Sentry Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), coincided
with the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine, some 40 miles from the
Russian border. The U.S. Army has revealed that the 10-day exercise involved "commercial traffic
monitoring". It can be assumed that commercial traffic monitoring included monitoring the track
of MH-17.
Since March 2014, NATO Boeing Awacs were over Ukraine checking every aerial and ground movements
and intercepting all the communications and electronic signals. Thanks to these abilities three
Boeing Awacs are enough for controlling the whole Central Europe.
Yet they have not individualized the missile responsible for the downing of MH17. And it has not
sensed the electronic wake of the radar which has hooked the flight either. As blind and deaf
were the CIA satellites. Yet the same satellites had previously photographed a column of three
tanks T64 and other weapons at the border between Russia and Ukraine.
It is thus legitimate to wonder how come the Americans, so prompt to photograph and to follow
the movements of three antiquated tank T64 at the time, had let escaped or had not documented
the passage, strategically more remarkable, of a missile system.
The Dutch reports says:
"The crash of flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 was caused by the detonation of a 9N314M-type
warhead launched from the eastern part of Ukraine using a Buk missile system. So says the investigation
report published by the Dutch Safety Board today. Moreover, it is clear that Ukraine already
had sufficient reason to close the airspace over the eastern part of Ukraine as a precaution
before 17 July 2014. None of the parties involved recognised the risk posed to overflying civil
aircraft by the armed conflict in the eastern part of Ukraine."
"The essential problem is that people say when you look at the media this is an investigation
led by the Dutch. Well in fact it's not led by the Dutch. It's led by Ukrainian investigation
together with the Dutch people. It's delegated from Kiev to the Netherlands for a period of
a year. Why is it taking so long? It is taking so long because they are not finding what they
were looking for. And that must be a BUK, a rocket installation from the separatist side. And
they are not finding anything truthful about it". (Joost Niemoller, Dutch journalist)
Moreover when two countries, either part of the investigation primary panel, or of the
advisory panel, both shot a civilian plane and never apologized for it, both actively participate
in killing civilians in the Donbass, concerns can arise as to their reliability and impartiality
in such an inquiry. And there is the infamous non disclosure deal, that is that these countries
are not obliged to communicate all of their findings, and on top they neglected most Russian's
material provided to them.
The Commission demonstrated its incompetence by the fact of not having sent experts on, not
having secured the area immediately to the investigation, it had not brought any of all the pieces
of the plane to reconstruct and visualize how the carcass was touched. And the Ukrainian army
was bombing the area.
How can you then believe this inquiry is not biased ? You cant. The US satellite were active
over the Donbass the day the flight was hit, yet the US refuse to show the images proving their
claim that Russia is guilty, like the Ukrainians dont relaese their ATC.
Sometimes readers comments give information that offer insight into the many questions still
left unanswered into the circumstances surrounding the downing of the aircraft MA 17' The
points raised by Davie Macdonald is a good example of this.
"Some points worth noting 26 February 2014 Russian Forces in Western Military Distract put
on Alert That would have triggered NATO observation and comment > Confirmed
US Spy satellites would have been more focused on the area >obvious
Moving forward when MH17 was shot down claims were made through audio intercepts the Separatists
( Alexander Khodakovsky of the Vostok Battalion) had done the downing and boasted.
Then later is was claimed Strelkov admitted it. later and it was an error. . Some three days
later as these transcripts was proved fake.
Higgins and the Ukraine Government immediately claimed it was the 18 infantry Brigade. This
didn't exist in the Russian Western Military District . In desperation a picture was then posted
of a Russian selfie with BUK 312 by Higgins proving Russian involvement It very soon proved to
be a Ukrainian soldier and Ukrainian Buk.
By September 2014 the claims were being made that it was 53rd Brigade which is also interesting
because that is not (for the forensically accurate Higgins claims he is) Is actually 53rd Anti-Aircraft
Rocket Brigade.
Now the only heresay we are given is by Higgins. It has already been clearly established that
the BUK unit as claimed was 312 and in Ukraine army possession Can you really imagine this vehicle
would have been driven to and from a site that was a battlefield in broad daylight ? Afterall
the Ukraine has its airforce.
As for the first claimed launch field where it was supposedly fired from on July 17 you will
1) find no evidence of burnt grass Higgins faked a Google Earth map
2) It was as pointed out in one of my other responses an battler field ebbing and flowing
3) Higgins claims it was a bright sunny day to show a Buk plume when it was in fact overcast
see initial and final DSB report
4) BUK M1 cannot fire accurately at a target sight unseen and seen It still requires in simple
terms the acquisition target Radar unit to guide missile....which when reaching target is designed
not to hit but explode above the target.
The DSB report does not show this and only one BUK Bowtie missile shard (there are 8,000 in
missile) was found in the wreckage along with a stabilizer fin, engine exhaust manifold. Only
one person found this material a Dutch Journalist Julian Borger
None were found by site investigators and the origin of another 2 allegedly found at the site
is deemed classified. Even the Malaysians have not been given this information Why keep,it secret"
Many people are convinced that the Russians were responsible, if they could 'answer Macdonalds
questions it would go a long way in convincing me that they actually 'know' the truth
The sources for this include photos posted on the Internet and army data about personnel
deployment that was available online, NOS said.
Of course it must be true as it was "on the internet".
Considering the the fact that each side to this saga routinely denounces contrary internet
information as complete bollocks, how can the Guardian ascribe any credibility to this "study".
Clearly, whilst all information is equal, some is more equal than other!
BUK is a complex piece of weaponry, more so than your average T60/T72 tanks requiring a lot
of lengthy training. They're not the sort of equipment provided to insurgent/rebels because of
the threat they pose. If they did obtain one then it was more than likely crewed by actual trained
Russian troops. In either case this was a genuine mistake and a tragedy as it happens in all warzones.
The US shot down the Iranian Passenger plane in the 70s in far more dubious circumstanced and
refused to even apologise for the ''mistake'' (leading many to believe it wasn't a mistake). Now
if you think you'll find, trial and convict anyone for this mistake...good luck with it. You'll
get about the same results as those Iranian families
If someone uses some logic, why would they (The Russians) give that BUK to the militia? There
wasn't any need for that because they're doing pretty well with MANPADS, they didn't have any
needs to hit high flying aeroplanes.
The second thing, if some aeroplane is hit at an altitude higher than MANPADS can reach it
would be pretty obvious that Russia have supplied them with those advanced weapon systems.
The third thing is, a BUK single TELAR (if they had an operational one) without an observation
radar 'Kupol' (or any other) cannot find such a high and fast flying target, a radar beam on that
TELAR is simply too narrow for that. A BUK is a system ( complex) with an observation radar and
a command vehicle and all data that is comming to a TELAR have to come through that command vehicle
and an observation radar is easy to detect
"if some aeroplane is hit at an altitude higher than MANPADS can reach it would be pretty obvious
that Russia have supplied them"
- obvious by feelings, but not logically obvious. As there are other possibilities, just few for
example:
1) not a BUK, but something else; 2) not separatists/Russia, but Ukrainian military/batallions;
3) if separatists, they were able to take BUK from some base there, for example, the air defense
base A-1402 near Donetsk... etc.
"... "fragments of the pilots' cockpit have suffered specific damages in the form of localized puncture holes and surface dents typical for hypervelocity impacts with compact and hard objects," ..."
A report on Malaysian Airlines MH17 air disaster in Ukraine last year by a group of old-hand aviation
security experts maintains that the Boeing might have been downed by an Israeli Python air-to-air
missile.
The report was leaked via the private LiveJournal account of Albert Naryshkin (aka albert_lex)
late on Tuesday and has already been widely discussed by social media communities in Russia.
The authors of the investigative report have calculated the possible detonation initiation point
of the missile that hit the passenger aircraft and approximate number and weight of strike elements,
which in turn designated the type and presumed manufacturer of the weapon.
Malaysian Airline Boeing 777-200 performing flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on July
17, 2014, crashed on the territory of Ukraine near the village of Grabovo, killing all 283 passengers
and 15 crewmembers aboard.
The aircraft disintegrated in the air and the debris of MH17 were scattered across an area of
about 50 sq. km.
The external view of MH17 hull pieces indicates that "fragments of the pilots' cockpit have
suffered specific damages in the form of localized puncture holes and surface dents typical for hypervelocity
impacts with compact and hard objects," the report says, stressing that similar damage could
be found on the inner side of the cockpit.
The report specifically points out that chips of the body coat around the holes in the fragment
are typical of wave effects created by hypervelocity impacts.
Some damage, though larger and less clustered, could be found near the air-scoop of the left-wing
engine of the aircraft.
The nature of the damage allows for the identification of the source as a high-explosive fragmentation
warhead from a modern anti-aircraft weapon, claims the report.
Apart from the large puncture holes, the debris of the nose and the cockpit of the aircraft bear
a large number of scattered micro-craters resulting from the impact of high-velocity dust and tiny
debris, such as an unburnt blasting agent and elements of the ordnance that accompany a shock wave
from a blast that occurred very close to the target. In the case of MH17, the pilots' cockpit.
The report says that as a rule, the initial speed of the striking elements of modern anti-aircraft
weapons vary between 1,500 and 2,500 meters per second.
Altogether, the experts considered photos of five fragments of the cockpit and left port of the
flight MH17, on which they counted some 230 "battle-damage" holes and punctures.
All this considered, the experts claim that the exact zone of the blast impact could be established
with a fair degree of accuracy.
The warhead of the missile exploded very close to the cockpit, to its left side at a distance
of 0.8-1.6 meters from the cockpit windows, exactly opposite the sliding window of the aircraft commander.
The dimensions and character of the puncture holes left by the strike elements allegedly allow
their size and form factor to be established, which in its turn makes it possible to identify the
type of weapon used in a particular case.
The cross dimension of absolute majority, 86 percent, of the 186 hull holes studied by experts
measure between 6 and 13mm, with explicit maximum of them having cross dimension of 8mm.
This fact brought the expert group to a conclusion about the size of the strike elements of the
warhead. If the warhead had been armed with two types of strike elements, the majority of the holes
would have been of two types, the reports notes.
The strike element has been established of being a rectangular block measured 8mm x 8mm x 6mm,
with margin of error of 0.5 mm, a high probability it was made of steel and an estimated weight of
3 grams each. The total number of such elements should have varied between 2,000 and 4,000.
The bulk of the strike elements are estimated between 4.88 – 14.8 kilograms.
@ http://albert-lex.livejournal.com
The report confutes the argument of Russia's Almaz-Antey military concern that early claimed that
"intricate shape" double-t steel fragments, similar to those used in warheads of surface-to-air
Buk missile systems, have been extracted from the debris of MH17 flight.
Howwever, the double-t strike elements of a Buk missile weigh 8.1 grams, more than twice as much
as a single damage fragment among those that pierced MH17's hull. Thus, according to the report,
the hypothesis about a Buk missile system being involved in the crash is "most probably incorrect."
With 95 percent probability, the group of experts estimates the weight of the missile's warhead
(explosives plus strike elements) that shot down MH17 of being between 10 and 40kg.
This led the experts to determine the exact type of the weapon used against Malaysian Airlines
flight MH17.
The report says that that Soviet- and Russian-made surface-to-air missile systems use more powerful
warheads than the established maximum 40kg, as is the case with MH17.
Moreover, Soviet- and Russian-made air-to-air missiles which have a similar 10-40kg warhead capability
use other types of strike elements within one warhead - obviously not the case with MH17.
A whole range of existing foreign air-to-air missiles have corresponding warhead characteristics,
yet lack of physical elements of the missile used against MH17 prevented experts from establishing
the exact type of the weapon used.
Still, the circumstances and conditions of the assault allowed experts to make certain assumptions.
The missile that attacked MH17 had a passive radar homing head, which explains why the missile
exploded so close to the cockpit. Under the radar-transparent nosecone of a Boeing 777-200 there
is a surveillance radar station operable during the flight, so most likely the missile homed on to
this radar as the target.
Apart from a radar homing head, the missile could also be equipped with an advanced, matrix type,
imaging IR seeker, which enables the missile to determine the size and the type of the target and
choose for attack its most vital element. For a huge Boeing aircraft, that's the cockpit.
A simulation of the missile attack has proved that missiles with that type of guidance choose
to attack a big passenger plane from the front hemisphere.
There are four air-to-air missiles that fit the description established by the experts, namely:
French Magis-2, Israeli Shafrir, American AIM-9 and Israeli Python – all short-range.
The first three have been struck off the list for various reasons, including type of warhead or
guidance system specifications. The Python deserved a closer look.
The Python is equipped with a matrix-imaging IR seeker. It enables a relatively moderate power
warhead to effectively engage big aircrafts. The warhead is armed with a set of ready strike elements.
Even more importantly, some open military sources suggest that in early 2000s a number of Sukhoi
Su-25 assault fighter jets we refurbished to use fourth and fifth generation Python missiles, which
look very similar to the Su-25's standard air-to-air R-60 missile.
@ http://albert-lex.livejournal.com
The unofficial report leaked in LiveJournal has become yet another one among many other unofficial
versions presented over the year that has passed since the catastrophe occurred on July 17, 2014.
The Dutch Safety Board that has been heading an international investigation into the cause of
the crash is due to release its official report in October.
"... "initial information that the aircraft was shot down by a [Buk] surface to air missile" did not meet the Australian or international standard of evidence …." ..."
"... What will happen to the resolve of the holdouts if the narrative on MH17 begins to veer away from rock-solid Russian ownership of the tragedy? Because that was the whole backbone of the sanctions – Crimea was not enough to get Germany and France on board, and they still needed the little push that MH17 provided. If that rationale vanished, or even if serious doubt was introduced, the whole EU position on sanctions could fall apart. ..."
"... It's bigger than I thought – there is some sort of internal power struggle going on, and West refuses to change his findings – which still point to Russia for responsibility – in spite of Donoghoe's testimony. ..."
First two paragraphs:
"The Australian Federal Police and Dutch police and prosecutors investigating the cause of the
crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17 believe the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has failed to provide "conclusive
evidence" of what type of munition destroyed the aircraft, causing the deaths of 283 passengers
and 15 crew on board.
Testifying for the first time in an international court, Detective Superintendent Andrew Donoghoe,
the senior Australian policeman in the international MH17 investigation, said a "tougher standard
than the DSB report" is required before the criminal investigation can identify the weapon which
brought the aircraft down, or pinpoint the perpetrators.
Their criminal investigation will continue
into 2016, Donoghoe told the Victorian Coroners Court (lead image) on Tuesday morning. He and
other international investigators are unconvinced by reports from the US and Ukrainian governments,
and by the DSB, of a Buk missile firing. "Dutch prosecutors require conclusive evidence on other
types of missile," Donoghoe said, intimating that "initial information that the aircraft was shot
down by a [Buk] surface to air missile" did not meet the Australian or international standard
of evidence …."
Great catch, Jen!! Wow, you're right – this is big, especially in view of
the wavering by some EU members on sanctions. I wonder what Merkel has up her sleeve; she
says Germany – while going ahead with Nord Stream II, which is "first and foremost a business
proposition" – is "seeking ways to ensure that Ukraine is not completely excluded as a transit
country".
Ummm…what role would that be? Because if, in exchange for pushing ahead on Nord Stream,
Russia is maneuvered into still sending gas through Ukraine so that Ukraine can collect transit
fees, the project would be self-defeating. I trust the business minds in Russia are sharp enough
to stay ahead of that one. Ukraine will still receive gas from Russia, if it wants it and can
pay in advance for it, but it will be for domestic supplies only and consequently not subject
to transit fees. Russia must not weaken on this, because the EU still hopes to rebuild Ukraine
using Russian money, and it cannot do it without Russian help and support. If that is withheld,
Russia only needs to wait them out.
Needless to say, Tusk supports Renzi's position, not because
he is an Italiophile but because he supports Ukraine and would like to see it remain a transit
country, and pocketing $2 Billion a year in Russian cash.
What will happen to the resolve of the holdouts if the narrative on MH17 begins to veer away
from rock-solid Russian ownership of the tragedy? Because that was the whole backbone of the sanctions
– Crimea was not enough to get Germany and France on board, and they still needed the little push
that MH17 provided. If that rationale vanished, or even if serious doubt was introduced, the whole
EU position on sanctions could fall apart.
marknesop, December 19, 2015 at 8:37 pm
It's bigger than I thought – there is some sort of internal power struggle going on,
and West refuses to change his findings – which still point to Russia for responsibility – in
spite of Donoghoe's testimony. There were revelations in the original post such as that
Australia had sought permission from the Novorossiyan authorities to collect evidence and
artifacts, as well as Kiev – thereby implicitly recognizing Novorossiya – and that when it
solicited witnesses to testify, some agreed only on the condition their names would not be
revealed, that the Ukrainian authorities would not be involved and that the investigators
would protect them. Sure sounds like they want to say something they know the Ukrainian
government will punish them for saying, if it can identify them. This whole inquiry just got
interesting again.
At the moment it looks like a faction of the Australian investigation disagrees with the pat
finding of the Dutch, but the Victorian state coroner is totally on board with the "Russia did
it" scenario and is determined to have his way no matter how foolish it makes him look. This
one could go anywhere from here.
Moscow Exile, December 19, 2015 at 11:28 pm
Clearly that Aussie cop is in the pocket of the Evil One!
Isn't he the one who said earlier that the Russian-backed terrorists at the MH-17 crash site
behaved like decent human beings and treated the crash victims' remains with dignity and did
not loot their belongings?
I mean, what a ludicrous thing to say!
Everyone knows that these Russian beasts are ….blah, blah, blah ...
davidt, December 20, 2015 at 2:03 pm
Donoghue is not the only AFP cop speaking up for the crash site locals. Their sensitivity
and humanity is a rather at odds with a disparaging comment about the AFP on these pages over
a year ago (and which I objected to at the time). I noticed last week that Patrick Armstrong
is now reconsidering the Sukhoi did it scenario because of an apparent lack of fragments from
a Buk warhead.
The report, even in its highly-politized form, gives the families of the victims the right
to file lawsuits against Ukraine for its criminal negligence in complying with flight safety
rules. These suits can cost Ukraine billions of dollars.
idance 14 Oct 2015 12:51
Partly repeating my comment to another article here I must admit this POV agrees with
today's (but not yesterday's) US standards.
The US has just refused to accept the UNSC statement condemning the shelling of the Russian
Embassy in Damascus. They said the responsibility for the security of diplomatic missions lies
on the receiving party, that is on Damascus.
Applying this standard it doesn't matter who shot down MH17. The responsibility lies on
Ukraine cause it was Ukraine who should have ensured security of the flight.
Yeah! How do you like it!
SHappens 14 Oct 2015 03:31
"Russia's got a role and they haven't been very helpful," he said. "So I blame Russia
partially but not completely. There are many other players that are also to blame."
Some people see through. Rightly, as highlighted by the report, Ukraine failed to its
obligations, by not closing its airspace, rerouting a flight which casually got shot. They
bear the main responsibility in this disaster.
DeConstruct -> Putzik 13 Oct 2015 23:05
You are 100% on the money in relation to shorter route length and air navigation fees. The
penny should have dropped when it became obvious from the altitudes of previous military shoot
downs that medium range (up to 70,000' +) weapons were being employed and not just low
altitude MANPADS.
summaluvva -> Putzik 13 Oct 2015 22:35
Quoting Guardian's article, "Many of the world's best-known airlines – including British
Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific – had been avoiding Ukrainian airspace due to safety fears
for months before the downing of flight MH17.".
"... if you can explain any single interest of Russia to
destroy civilian plane and kill 300 innocent people to gain public support from world, then I
am curious to know it; sure, in totally crazy scenario, somebody can orchestrate it all and
motivate somebody to target 777 by mistake or there can be some special services for false
flag, but I am sure that this is absolutely risky business with the same bad PR as first
case; far more, I can imagine, that somebody stupid tried to modulate it upon MH370 case media
wave while escalating warfare and hate of somebody else; truth will be known, soon or later,
be sure ..."
In October, the BUK manufacturer conducted a second full-scale experiment using the missile
and a decommissioned Ilyushin Il-86 passenger airliner. The simulation of the attack on the
Boeing "unequivocally proved that if the plane was brought down by a BUK system, it was done with
an outdated 9M38 missile from the village of Zaroshchenskoye," in Ukrainian military-controlled
territory.
The company also said that the last missile of this type was produced in the Soviet Union in
1986, that its life span is 25 years including all prolongations, and that all missiles of this
type were decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011.
According to Almaz-Antey experts, the Dutch side does not explain why the investigation insists
that the possible launch of the surface-to-air missile was executed from the settlement of
Snezhnoye, controlled by rebel forces.
A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to Boeing's left side and not a
single element would have hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, insist the Almaz-Antey
experts.
... ... ...
The main proof that the aircraft was shot down from the direction of Snezhnoye was [the Dutch
commission's] modeling of that process and interpretation of the damage to the fuselage. It does
provide a quite visual imagery of how a missile on a head-on course could damage certain areas,
yet this kind of modeling does not explain at all the real-incidence angles of striking elements
[hitting the aircraft]," Novikov said.
Analysis of the photos of MH17 debris led the company's experts to believe that the blast of the
warhead damaged not only the cockpit of the Boeing 777 that crashed in Ukraine, but also the left
wing and stabilizer.
The detonation of the missile occurred at a distance of more than 20 meters from the left-wing
engine and most of the strike elements were moving along the fuselage of the aircraft.
... ... ...
The left wing and stabilizer also bear traces of damage, the size of which provides an
opportunity to define them as inflicted by the strike elements of a BUK missile complex," adviser
of the general constructor of Almaz-Antey, Mikhail Malyshevsky, said.
The Almaz-Antey experts paid special attention to the fact that some of the damage registered on
the MH17 debris was caused by disruption of the aircraft's structural components and not by the
striking elements of the missile.
The experts of Almaz-Antey also said that Ukraine possesses 9M38 missiles, but fell short of
accusing either the Kiev authorities or the rebels in the east of Ukraine of causing the
catastrophe.
... ... ...
Simultaneously with the investigation of the Dutch Safety Board, the Dutch prosecutor's office
is conducting a separate criminal investigation of its own aimed at establishing the perpetrators
of the attack on passenger aircraft.
A Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 flight MH17 passenger aircraft left from Amsterdam to the
Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur on July 17, 2014. The airliner was shot down and fell to Earth
over the Donetsk Region in eastern Ukraine. All 298 people, 283 passengers and 15 crew, on board
were killed. There were 80 children among the passengers. Most, 193 people, were Dutch nationals;
altogether the airliner was carrying citizens from 10 countries.
djajakondomis 4 days ago 06:12
As I said. Just read the report and supplements! The specified area consists mainly out of
Rebel area...
Almaz-Antei director Yan Novikov was involved during the investigation. There were even
three main/big meetings, and every meeting took three days!
At the second meeting Almaz-Antei director Yan Novikov even presented the 9N314M warhead
himself. The investigation team was even happy that there was consensus. On the third meeting
Yan Novikov suddenly said; well, it was only an example we presented.
However, based for instance on the butterfly shape, the whole research team (of all
countries) were convinced it was a 9N314M warhead, except suddenly the Russian delegation.
This investigation was based on the parts found within the bodies!! Not something found on
the ground or whatsoever...
Read the report!
Sergio Teixeira 4 days ago 02:05
hanspy
Show me the video from the blast and ad a speed of let us say 2000 kmh from the
rocket(probably
higher speed) plus 700 kmh from the plane and tell me than again how it looks. A blast
with zero kmh speed looks totally different than a blast patron with 2700kmh or more. You
Russians know exactly who did it and with what rocket and from where. So stop playing
around and start to be real journalists and not some propaganda machine from Putin or
Almaz-Antey .
next they will say Sadam did it.
Sergio Teixeira 4 days ago 02:04
Af Veth
Whatever, anyway Russian Forces downed MH17. Thats was it counting.
not Russian but CIA to justify they needs.
Sergio Teixeira 4 days ago 02:03
Message deleted
EU is slave from USA
vladffff 4 days ago 01:03
Took these rats 1 year to find this out?
alrobigglesworth 5 days ago 21:01
"[Almaz-Antey] added that among the materials received and examined by their experts
were heavy fraction sub munitions, which only the older 9M38M1 missile modification is
equipped with."
That's a direct quote from the RT article from June 2015 regarding Almaz-Antey's first
test.
alrobigglesworth 5 days ago 20:32
After their first "experiment" in June, Almaz-Antey said that "If a surface-to-air missile
system was used [to hit the plane], it could only have been a 9M38M1 missile of the BUK-M1
system." Why is he changing his story, especially now that the Dutch Safety Board reached the
same conclusion? Seems fishy.
Petr Antoš 5 days ago 17:45
hanspy
Show me the video from the blast and ad a speed of let us say 2000 kmh from the
rocket(probablymore...
ummm, ok, they even offered to buy old 777 a let it be downed while flying on AP over
military area to proof their analysis; if you can explain any single interest of Russia to
destroy civilian plane and kill 300 innocent people to gain public support from world, then I
am curious to know it; sure, in totally crazy scenario, somebody can orchestrate it all and
motivate somebody to target 777 by mistake or there can be some special services for false
flag, but I am sure that this is absolutelly risky business with the same bad PR as first
case; far more, I can imagine, that somebody stupid tried to modulate it upon MH370 case media
wave while escalating warfare and hate of somebody else; truth will be known, soon or later,
be sure
hanspy 5 days ago 17:28
Show me the video from the blast and ad a speed of let us say 2000 kmh from the
rocket(probably higher speed) plus 700 kmh from the plane and tell me than again how it looks.
A blast with zero kmh speed looks totally different than a blast patron with 2700kmh or more.
You Russians know exactly who did it and with what rocket and from where. So stop playing
around and start to be real journalists and not some propaganda machine from Putin or
Almaz-Antey .
Norma Brown 5 days ago 15:04
this is a good result for Russia, as the only government involved that can be sued for
criminal stupidity is Kiev, for allowing the flight into a war zone.
After MH17 was shot done all intelligence services of NATO (with a lot of high tech) as well as
Ukrainian SBU (with a lot of people on the ground; enough to monitor all major roads) were on alert.
So the hypothesis that they were unable to locate the launch platform is a very weak hypothesis. It
was next to impossible for rebels to move it from Snizhne to, say, Russia. This is a serious problem
with version that it was BUK, unless it was a Ukrainian BUK.
Looks like Snizhne was pushed as a smoke screen to deflect attention from Ukrainians.
Notable quotes:
"... The US release of this illustration (below) of the area lacks resolution
and scale, so no launcher can be seen. The firing location and the green line
of trajectory are unverified guesswork. The US has not presented evidence that
on July 17 a Buk-M1 battery was in Snizhne. ..."
"... the Russian evidence
for a Ukrainian military launcher at Zaroshchenske puts the distance between
this pre-firing location and the purported Snizhne launch position at less than
25 kilometres. ..."
Russian generals Andrei Kartapolov (Army) and Igor Makushev (Air Force)
have presented
satellite pictures showing that on or before July 17 the Ukrainian military
moved at least three Buk-M1 missile batteries – comprising a tracked launcher
and a target acquisition radar van – out of their depot north of Donetsk, and
into positions, all of which were within 30 kilometres of the Boeing's flight
path; the SA-11's range is 30 kilometres. One unit in particular was
photographed at the village of Zaroshchenske, south of the bigger settlement of
Shakhtarsk, and south of the main road H21. This position is about 15
kilometres from the M17 flight path and from the impact site.
The Russian
location evidence can be seen on this Google map:
The US release of this illustration (below) of the area lacks resolution
and scale, so no launcher can be seen. The firing location and the green line
of trajectory are unverified guesswork. The US has not presented evidence that
on July 17 a Buk-M1 battery was in Snizhne. But the Russian evidence
for a Ukrainian military launcher at Zaroshchenske puts the distance between
this pre-firing location and the purported Snizhne launch position at less than
25 kilometres. There is also a gap of several hours between the time of
the Russian photograph and the confirmed firing time at 1720. Between the two
locations, highway H21 would allow a mobile launcher unit and radar van to
redeploy within 45 to 60 minutes.
The Russian radar tracks identify the presence of a small Ukrainian aircraft
with Su-25 identifiers on the Boeing flight path, and within range of the
ground missile launcher within minutes of the shoot-down. The US intelligence
briefing neither confirms nor denies the presence in the air of the Su-25; no
US satellite or radar records have been released to corroborate the point.
Instead, the US briefing denies the Su-25 fired rockets at the Boeing.
Responding to the Russian radar presentation, President Petro Poroshenko
told CNN the presentation was the "irresponsible and false statement of the
Russian [defense] minister". Poroshenko appeared not to be familiar with the
Russian radar evidence. He said: "When the Russian [Defense] ministry makes
such a statement, it must provide proof. The sky over Ukraine is monitored by
many satellites and air defense systems. Everyone knows that all Ukrainian
planes were on the ground several hundred kilometres away [from the crash site]
For some reason they investigate only version of surface to air missile. Possibility of air to air
missile was not investigated. Dutch reps could attend Almaz-Antey experiments and collect shrapnel from
them. They did not do this. Also they demonstrated provable negligence in collecting evidence (Ukraine
at this point was EU vassal state and one phone call from Brussel would exclude any shelling of the
area). The question why the plane was brought to the particular area was answered "to avoid thunderstorms".
I doubt that at this altitude they can affect the plane. All this points to a cover up of Ukrainian
false flag operation.
"... According to the DSB, "no unalloyed steel fragments were found in the remains of the passengers".
..."
"... 20 were found on analysis to include layers of aluminium or glass. The DSB's explanation is
that the external explosion of a missile warhead had propelled these fragments through the cockpit windows
and aluminium panels of the fuselage, fusing with the glass and aluminium before striking the three
crew members in the cockpit at the time. ..."
"... The DSB conclusion is that these fragments came from a missile warhead, but not conclusively
from a Buk missile warhead type 9N314M. The evidence for this Buk warhead comes, the DSB reports, from
4 – repeat four – fragments. ..."
"... Because Buk shrapnel is understood to have such cubic and bow-tie shapes, there are just four
fragments to substantiate it. If the autopsy evidence is regarded as the only source that could not
have been contaminated on the ground, or in the interval between the crash and the forensic testing
in The Netherlands, there are just three fragments which fit the Buk bill. ..."
"... By failing to identify the location of these parts, the finders, or the dates on which they
were sent to Holland, the DSB does not rule out that this evidence may have been fabricated. ..."
Eight pages of the DSB report – pages 88 to 95 - focus on the metal fragments. The number of these
starts at "over 500 recovered from the wreckage of the aeroplane, the remains of the crew members
and passengers." Many, apparently most, of these fragments turned out to be "personal belongings,
aeroplane parts or objects that originated from the ground after impact." According to the DSB, "many
were metal fragments that were suspected to be high-energy objects." Of these just 72 were investigated
further because they were "similar in size, mass and shape." 43 of this 72 were "found to be made
of unalloyed steel". The term "shrapnel" may be a synonym for "unalloyed steel fragments", but the
word doesn't appear at all in the DSB report. According to the DSB, "no unalloyed steel fragments
were found in the remains of the passengers".
Of the 43 steel fragments investigated thoroughly - all of them recovered from the bodies of the
cockpit crew or in the wreckage of the cockpit - 20 were found on analysis to include layers
of aluminium or glass. The DSB's explanation is that the external explosion of a missile warhead
had propelled these fragments through the cockpit windows and aluminium panels of the fuselage, fusing
with the glass and aluminium before striking the three crew members in the cockpit at the time.
The DSB conclusion is that these fragments came from a missile warhead, but not conclusively
from a Buk missile warhead type 9N314M. The evidence for this Buk warhead comes, the DSB reports,
from 4 – repeat four – fragments. These, "although heavily deformed and damaged, had distinctive
shapes; cubic and in the form of a bow-tie". The DSB's exact count is two cubic shapes, two bow-ties.
One bow-tie was recovered from the cockpit wreckage; one from the body of a cockpit crew member.
Both cubic fragments were found in the bodies of the crew members.
Because Buk shrapnel is understood to have such cubic and bow-tie shapes, there are just four
fragments to substantiate it. If the autopsy evidence is regarded as the only source that could not
have been contaminated on the ground, or in the interval between the crash and the forensic testing
in The Netherlands, there are just three fragments which fit the Buk bill.
In addition, the DSB says it has examined chemical residues of the warhead explosive, and paint
particles from the surface of missile parts reportedly recovered from the ground. Exactly where,
when, and by whom the purported missile parts were found the DSB does not identify. In Section 2:12:2:8
of the report, the DSB says that "during the recovery of the wreckage, a number of parts that did
not originate from the aeroplane and its content were found in the wreckage area. The parts found
appeared to be connected with a surface-to-air missile. The parts that were suspected to be related
to a surface-to-air missile were transported to the Gilze-Rijen Air Force Base [in The Netherlands;
also reported as the Hilversum Army Base] in the same way as the aeroplane wreckage was. On arrival
the parts underwent the same examination as the pieces of aeroplane wreckage." By failing to
identify the location of these parts, the finders, or the dates on which they were sent to Holland,
the DSB does not rule out that this evidence may have been fabricated. At page 53 the DSB admits
that "many pieces of the wreckage" were either not examined physically "until four months after the
crash", or not recovered for examination for up to nine months after the July 17, 2014, downing.
"... Even though "Almaz-Antey" had informed the Netherlands board in advance that the "Buk" SAM
could have only been launched at the Boeing from the area of the village of Zaroshchenskoe (which
at the time was under the control of the Ukrainian military) and that this had been confirmed
by field tests, the Dutch coloured the launch area of the missile in a very different place on
the map. (see map). ..."
"Almaz-Antey" have accused the Netherlands of falsifying the map of where the Boeing
crashed
This time the Netherlands Commission of Inquiry has been caught lying red-handed about the
Russian concern "Almaz-Antey", which developed the "Buk" anti-aircraft missile systems. "Almaz-Antey"
has announced that a map covering the 320 square kilometer area from where a missile targeted
against the Boeing could have been launched is not only erroneous but also that the Dutch in their
report had indicated that their data were supposedly consistent with "Almaz-Antey"calculations.
That is, they covered up their concoctions with the authoritative report of the Russian company.
Even though "Almaz-Antey" had informed the Netherlands board in advance that the "Buk" SAM
could have only been launched at the Boeing from the area of the village of Zaroshchenskoe (which
at the time was under the control of the Ukrainian military) and that this had been confirmed
by field tests, the Dutch coloured the launch area of the missile in a very different place on
the map. (see map).
The US key strategy is the same as British -- to cut Europe from Russia. This time it again work
brilliantly... The fact the USA are withholding evidence implicates Kiev.
"... Because it was supposed to clearly show that rebels did it . No need to rely on social media
and other unreliable sources. Plus it was classified before ut was mentioned about. So you fake democrat
and liberal really wasn't to live in the world where you will be prosecuted on sure information that
is so secret that nobody can know about it ;) ..."
"... How guys like you can pretend to love Orwell so much? Don't you realize today the joke is on
you? ..."
"... Do you understand that this is not a regular crash incident? Based on the unsupported assumptions
there are already economic sanctions imposed and the world is gearing up for the WW3. How dumb can you
be not to notice the difference? ..."
"... Ukies shot the plane down stupidly hoping the blame will fall on Russia and NATO will declare
war on Putin amidst worldwide uproar and indignation. They now may realize they had committed murder
most foul for nothing. This kinda reminds of the play 'Macbeth'. What's done cannot be undone. ..."
"... Almost all the damage concentrated in cockpit/front fuselage. Now how does that tie to the
BUK scenario exactly? how does the damage from High energy objects conform to sharpnel from BUK especially
as there are both entry and exit holes? ..."
"... "The specific area where the fatal missile was fired is not in fact under control of the "pro-Russia
rebels". It is run by a neo-nazi private mercenary army, raised by Ukrainian billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky.
..."
"... Kolomoisky stinks of being an asset of the US and Israeli intelligence services, at minimum.
..."
"... Dutch Prime Minister Rutte had to acknowledge on TV on September 12th that the Netherlands
had refused to even communicate with the Separatist. This extreme partisan position of the Dutch government
disqualifies it from leading the investigation and has obviously hampered the investigation up till
now. ..."
"... This extreme partisan position of the Dutch government also clarifies why the role of UkSATSE
isn't questioned. ..."
"... the question 'who launched a missile' is actually less relevant than 'who created the situation
by allowing MH17 to fly there'. ..."
"... UkSATSE failed to close that airspace after july 14 whena AN-24 was downed from 6500m and only
restricted up to 10km. 6500m is beyond the man portable system range. ..."
"... The report section 2.4.3 issued by the investigation simply stated that MH17 complied to the
restrictions issued by UkSATSE. By ignoring the most obvious question the investigation was now under
serious doubt but the extreme partisan positioning as revealed by the Dutch minister put that report
in the 'beyond doubt partisan category'. ..."
"... On the other hand, if Kiev can shoot down the airliner and blame the separatists, or even better,
Russia, then they would be backed by the west. Who has the most to gain? ..."
"... Then we have an investigation where all members have to agree with the report or a single member
can veto the release, which is why they are not allowed to assign blame, and why they have not been
allowed to state anything more than they have. ..."
"... I doubt any hard evidence will ever come out, and we will have to settle for innuendo and finger
pointing, allowing the west to isolate Russia even further till the missile shield network sits right
on their borders. ..."
"... What I find a bit troubling is that the obvious conclusion -- that the plane was hit by a ground
fired missile -- isn't backed up by any intelligence. Its reasonable to think that the US's NRO is watching
the Ukraine closely so they should have been able to get almost real time confirmation of the launcher's
position and use. ..."
"... Nobody willingly takes down an airliner unless there's serious propaganda to be made from it.
So its either a serious screwup by the rebels or something rather more evil by the blackops types. (I'd
regard the latter as a tinfoil helmet theory except that we've found out time and again that these people
are capable of doing anything provided it achieves their goal.) ..."
"... Yes indeed, US satellite data is highly secret unless it backs up the US Government's claims.
I don't suppose you're old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis and the release of all sort of
reconnaissance on the matter. ..."
"... Some suggest that an air to air missile might then be the cause of the fragmentation...but
this also is problematic, most AA missiles are not powerful enough to take out a large civil aircraft.
Many instances of smaller less well built passenger planes surviving AA strikes have been recorded...But
2 or 3 might do it..but the pilots would surely called Mayday.. They didn't, suggesting they had no
idea what hit them, ..."
"... Conclusion: Still no closer to knowing which side brought it down, whether it was just a cock
up, or a black flag. Plenty of propaganda, accusations, denials, but any real evidence so far is very
thin on the ground. ..."
"... It's funny how the press are falling over themselves to say it was definitely Russians, the
EU are desperate for it to be Russians, the Americans are desperate for it to be Russians - so when
something factual comes out that doesn't toe the expectant line they have to drop in the odd implication
and suggested line. ..."
"... the heavy coat of varnish that's clearly been applied to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) report.
..."
"... It's clear that Kiev benefited the most from the event, and the US exploited is to the fullest
to impose sanctions on Russia before any investigation was even initiated. The reluctance of both Kiev
and the US to provide evidence required for the investigation is bound to raise questions. ..."
"... This horrible tragedy has been and no doubt will be exploited for petty political gains. I
am sorry to see even the Dutch entering this shameful game by signing that non-disclosure agreement
with one of the suspects, the Kiev government. ..."
"... Sadly this 100-year old British company has been compromised being taken over by a Canadian
company belonging to zionists. Canadian PM Harper is a blind follower of Israeli extremists. So V Putin
is enemy number one and you can't use Reuters as an unbiased source once more. Russia has had to up
its game recently in the Arctic purely because Harper has become aggressive to please the US. ..."
"... Kiev Russian-speaking soldiers disguised as Donbass security forces ( rebels ) could have driven
a Buk into the Donbass, fired the missile and then driven back, making sure to be seen by foreign journalists
( Ukraine is a huge country, how come the journalists were on the same spot at the right moment to see
the Buk driving around ? very convenient..) ..."
"... The US and Israel both have motives to shoot the plane down. They had been convicted of war
crimes in KL last year and their cases sent to the ICC in Holland. MH17 was also full of Dutch passengers
- right ..."
"... Plus, the ukraine airforce is in a bad state due to lack of funds. So the US and Israelis were
providing assistance, also Poland and Lithuania, of pilots and equipment. No-one knows who was piloting
the two Su-25s detected by Russian radar. ..."
"... I did not speculate on why the pilot did not want to climb. It make no difference. By refusing
the order the pilot assumed responsibility for the fate of the plane. Civil aviation pilots have no
right to refuse orders of competent ground authorities and still enjoy the protections granted by international
treaties to civil aviation. ..."
"... I don't understand your statement about the report says there was no abnormal communication
. Are you contesting my claim that the pilot refused an order to climb up just minutes before being
hit? I'm basing my claim on what I read in previous articles in the Guardian on this. It could be wrong.
I wasn't there personally. ..."
"... Since the Ukraine has veto power over publication of the findings, this whole investigation
is a whitewash. Why isn't Russia part of the investigation with veto power? Giving one of the suspects
in a crime the ability to block publication of the findings is ludicrous. ..."
"... I am quite sure that bullets are high energy objects but the Western media seems to ignore
that possibility, as it would implicate Ukraine, which has veto power over any publication of findings.
..."
"... Just a little tip. Don't ever use anything that comes out of the Kiev offices. It is all 100%
unbelievable. All of it. ..."
"... All of this is just speculation. Question 1: where are the Satellite images of that area at
that exact time? Question 2: where are the audio transmissions between the crew and the flight towers?
Question 3: why did the BBC remove its own segment that was done shortly afterwards where they had people
on record stating that they had seen a jet flying behind if? Question 4: who ordered the BBC remove
its own segment? Question 5: If the pilots where shot at by a 'jet' as is believed by many - what about
the autopsies of the pilots? Were any done? What did they find. Question 6: if a BUK missile had taken
it down how come there was not a trail from the missile? These missiles do leave a rather distinctive
trial behind them that is seen for kilometers. Question 7: who ordered the plane to fly lower than was
deemed safe for that area? So many questions and so little facts… Perhaps they questions do not fit
the narrative? ..."
"... The mere fact that the United States MSM has dropped this topic like a hot potato (compare
CNN coverage of MH17 with the endless coverage of MH370) and the complete lack of verified NATO or US
or CIA satellite data implies that the Russians were not at fault here. ..."
Because it was supposed to "clearly show that rebels did it". No need to rely on social
media and other unreliable sources. Plus it was classified before ut was mentioned about. So you
fake democrat and liberal really wasn't to live in the world where you will be prosecuted on sure
information that is so secret that nobody can know about it ;)
How guys like you can pretend to love Orwell so much? Don't you realize today the joke
is on you?
Shaneo -> DELewes 15 Sep 2014 04:55
Ok, but John Kerry claimed to have seen the imagery of the launch, so you don't need to say
'likely' launch site.
Ask to see this imagery and we will know where the launch site is.
Will you do this?
And does it not make you suspicious that this imagery is being withheld?
Antidyatel -> ShermanPotter 15 Sep 2014 03:46
Do you understand that this is not a regular crash incident? Based on the unsupported assumptions
there are already economic sanctions imposed and the world is gearing up for the WW3. How dumb
can you be not to notice the difference?
I will give you a better example. The PRELIMINARY report by FEMA on 9/11 was released in May
2002 - that was very heavy in terms of pages and released in May 2002 (8 months after the event).
It was heavy in terms of pages and contained data not only about 4 planes and 3 buildings. It
was quite detailed in terms of TECHNICAL data.
There is absolutely no reason to withheld the factual data for public analysis. Particularly
in this situation. The facts about the event will not change. Or should I stress on it - the already
available facts SHOULD not change no matter how commission will later interpret them.
Antidyatel 2meters 15 Sep 2014 03:19
Calm down with Su-25 theory. Even if Russian MoD was implying possible culpability of that
plane, they didn't make the direct accusation. The whole mentioning was less than a minute out
of the whole 30 min presentation, in which the main focus was on 4 Ukrainian BUKs in the area.
Just from this proportion one can asses the priority of the versions that Russian MoD was considering.
So stop fighting windmills, my Don Quixote!
Antidyatel 2meters 15 Sep 2014 03:12
First of all, where did you get the data about 55 km?
Even the latest modification of BUK-M2. While everyone is talking about BUK-M1. More to this,
it is mainly claimed that a stand alone 9A310 unit was witnessed. It has FIRE DOME radar with
max engagement range of 35 km (some sources limit it to 32 km)
So your convinced part goes down the drain!
Second, do you understand that the maximum radar range represents a radius of a 3D sphere?
For the target flying at 10 km the relevant projection on the 2D map will be 33.5 km.
Let's stop at this for now.
2meters Antidyatel 15 Sep 2014 02:19
And NO. And SU-25 fighter jet cannot "gain an altitude of 10km" as the Russian Defense Ministry
asserted on July 21.
According to its specification its altitude ceiling is 7 km, even though someone working Kremlin
servers changed that to 10 km on Russian Wikipedia, hours after the Russian Defense Ministry's
press conference.
What I put in quotes is EXACTLY what the Russian Defense Ministry was telling us.
MoD didn't accuse that the plane was involved.
You are not getting this, are you ?
Let me spell it out :
That SU-25 DID NOT EXIST !
Radar would have shown it, and it did not.
Even General Peter Deinekin states that probably what the Russian Defence Ministry showed on their
radar image was probably a part of MH-17 breaking off.
If the Russian Defense Ministry would have actually shown the radar timelap (video) of when
and where that dot on their radar actually appeared, then we could have all seen that for ourselves.
But they did not, since it was no SU-25. It was a part of MH-17 breaking off.
Instead they used the radar images of the PIECES of a civilian airliner that killed 298 innocent
people to create a SU-25 conspiracy and point the finger at Ukraine.
Despicable.
Antidyatel -> jimbuluk 15 Sep 2014 01:30
Is there any original source that explains the meaning behind "transponder data became unreliable
at 13:18Z"?
Where did the Aviation Herald got this data from?
2meters -> Antidyatel 15 Sep 2014 01:27
Antidytel, yes, MH-17 was probably about 35 km away from the BUK launch site south of Snizhne
when the crew pressed the launch button.
The radar range of a single BUK TELAR is at least 55 km.
At 250 m/sec, MH 17 will thus have been on the BUK search radar something like 80 sec before
they launched the missile.
Even with conservative estimates of missile flight time and path, the Snizhne BUK launch crew
had about a minute to lock on their radar, and wait for the 'target' to come into range.
Convinced now ?
Antidyatel -> ShermanPotter 14 Sep 2014 23:59
I have to disagree with you. Even preliminary technical report should contain the technical
data already available. There is no justifiable reason for withholding any information. The next
report can just add new information.
So the preliminary report should have provided:
1) Civil and military radar data from Ukraine. It is very unprofessional for them not to at
least request it from Ukraine side. If Ukraine refused to provide it, it should have been clearly
stated
2) ATC communications along the whole route of MH17
3) full transcript from voice recorder. You can't possible believe that pilots were flying
in total silence
4) Technical data from the second black box on plane parameters. Particularly the data from
gyroscope that would give the most precise data on the plane actual route
5) other critical parameters.
Seriously it is not a herculean task for a 2 months of job. They have a whole team to do it.
How unprofessional can they be to fail with such simple task?
The purpose of the preliminary report is not to give the abridged/filtered version of the data.
The purpose should be tor provide the available data but to make only PRELIMINARY conclusions.
Only in this sense it can be called preliminary.
The current report can only be described by words SELECTIVE, EDITED, FILTERED and BIASED!!!
Antidyatel -> notherLex21 14 Sep 2014 22:36
4 different BUKs in the vicinity of the crash site were detected by Russians based on these
BUKs' outgoing radar signal.
Let's consider your points:
1) BUK system captured by rebels in Luhansk region, was incomplete so the maximum radar range
was 22 km. But we can first consider the improbable scenario that Russians first sneaked in and
then sneaked our the complete set for the BUK system. Ok we can exclude the loader. So let's just
say 2 units (actual launcher and radar unit), hence temporally I can agree on 35 km.
2) If you go to google maps and estimate the distance from Snizhne (proposed location for rebel
BUK) to Krasiy Luch (FDR point) it is approximately 24 km. (version of incomplete BUK system can
already be discarded). BUK max missile speed 850 m/s. 24 km it will travel in 28 sec. BUK requires
minimum 15 sec to lock on target. So even if we assume that "best" scenario, Boeing was traveling
for minimum 43 sec before it's first appearance on BUK radar and rocket hitting it. Cruise speed
of Boeing 777 ~ 900 km/h. So we get roughly 11 km. Just nice 35 km. But this is minimum. For example,
the rocket doesn't reach 850 m/sec immediately.
The point is that it would have been an extremely "lucky" coincidence for this scenario to work.
And again I repeat, it will require the full set of BUK units, not just the launcher. The so named
"proofs" of Russians sneaking in and out such a system are so laughable that I can't understand
how people can talk seriously about it.
4) The reference to the territory held by rebels is also laughable. The total number of rebels
on that moment was ~5000. But even if we take 10,000, you will get a fraction of a rebel per square
kilometre, if we assume that they are distributed equally. In reality majority of them were concentrated
in fixed positions around Lughansk, Donetsk and Saur Mogila. also large portion of them was involved
is annihilating surrounded UA units. If UA wanted to bring in BUKs into so named rebel controlled
area there would be no problem with it.
SirDeadpool 14 Sep 2014 22:31
Ukies shot the plane down stupidly hoping the blame will fall on Russia and NATO will declare
war on Putin amidst worldwide uproar and indignation. They now may realize they had committed
murder most foul for nothing. This kinda reminds of the play 'Macbeth'. What's done cannot be
undone.
bobby_fisher ShermanPotter 14 Sep 2014 18:14
ShermanPotter -- Antidyatel
14 Sep 2014 16:09
The key is in the title it's a preliminary report...
So you basically agree that presented data is incomplete....I also hope your level of English
language comprehension will allow you to distinguish black box recordings and conversations between
civilian ATC and military command that is not in the report, and according to Ukrainian reports
was confiscated from civilian controllers.
notherLex21 jimbuluk 14 Sep 2014 16:46
when the transponder data became unreliable at 13:18Z (position N48.28 E38.08)"
The DSB
rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf shows the transcript (page 15) where MH17 pilots last reply
is at 13:19:56.
Sorry, but the Aviation Herald is inaccurate.
"was enroute at FL330 about 20nm northeast of Donetsk (Ukraine) when the transponder
data became unreliable at 13:18Z (position N48.28 E38.08)"
Transponder data can't become unreliable without reason. And that reason led to the crash within
two minutes. The distance between the point the transponder data became unreliable and Snizhne
is approx 65 km, that's way beyond the range of BUK's missile, not to say about it's radar, -
less than 9 km.
ShermanPotter -> Antidyatel 14 Sep 2014 11:09
The key is in the title it's a preliminary report, that examines the technical reasons for
the crash of MH-17. In tandem is a criminal investigation.
The Preliminary report, has established that MH-17 was shot down and that immediately before
that event was operating normally with normal crew communications with ATC. The rest of what you
are talking about is for the criminal investigative team to examine and report to the Court.
Antidyatel -> 2meters 14 Sep 2014 09:46
No it is not what they were telling.
MoD didn't accuse that the plane was involved. They only stated yhe facts that there was a
potential for it to be involved. That is why additional data was requested from Ukraine to clarify.
Stark difference to blanket accusations based on tea leaves in a cup that were loaded by the list
of discredited a-holes in the beginning of your post
Antidyatel -> ShermanPotter 14 Sep 2014 08:27
For example, the missing part is the primary surveillance radar recordings. It would be expected
that if Ukraine wanted to help with investigation. it would supply not only civilian traffic data
but also the data of all military radars on that day. Not such a hard task. Report doesn't stress
on it but clearly indicates that even civil traffic data was not submitted. They could easily
reveal that data in the first few days after the incident or after the Russian MoD report and
clarify the issue with military planes in the air at that time. What prevents them from doing
it after 2 months?
Out of the whole page of those recordings only 3 lines are with MH17. Nothing of an essence.
There was absolutely no reason why not to provide the data from the moment MH17 entered Ukrainian
airspace or even from start of the flight. It would take 2-3 hours max to compile the communication
with ground control along the whole route. And they didn't need to wait even for black boxes to
do it. How unprofessional your professionals can be?
Most of the communication, that was revealed is related to communication between Dnepropetrovsk
and Rostov. No point withholding that information as Russians have the same transcript, I guess.
For MH17 the only portion of interest is 11 seconds before the disaster. This is bogus. And still
there is absolutely no excuse not to release the whole transcript of the black box, in the situation
which potentially can bring the world to the WW3. You don't joke with such things.
ShermanPotter -> Antidyatel 14 Sep 2014 05:22
So what information are you claiming is missing?
As well as that you list Page 14 also describes that Ukrainian ATC supplied radio and telephone
recordings and transcripts relating to MH-17.
The transcript in the preliminary report is just of the last few minutes of its flight before
being shot down, what more do you expect from a Preliminary report?
Antidyatel -> ShermanPotter 14 Sep 2014 04:18
Actually if you look strictly at the report specifies only 3 sources of ATC data:
1. Primary surveillance radar recorded by the Russian surveillance aids
2. Secondary surveillance radar
3. Automatic Dependant Surveillance
The explanation of the last 2 are given at the end of page 14 of the report. Which shows that
primary data from Ukrainian radars is still withheld.
The transcript provided is appearing to be incomplete. It is not like they were afraid of the
page limit. Why not to give the whole transcript? Also this transcript is strangely different
from the one given in BBC web-site
Isn't that exactly what western media and blogger and US intelligence had been telling us all
along ?
Interesting how this works with Kremlin war propaganda.
For starters, please note that General Peter Deinekin with his statement directly contradicts
the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia's military forces, Lieutenant-General
Andrey Kartopolov, who started this whole SU-25 conspiracy theory on July 21 :
The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17
Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the
passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
and
"The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification," he
added. "It's equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up
to 12km, up to 5km for sure."
Which opened up the floodgates for SU-25 conspiracy theorists and their accompanied anti-Ukraine
comments here in the Guardian comment sections and around the MSM.
While in fact there was no Ukrainian or any other fighter jet around.
Now, of course, the pro-Russian trolls will drop the SU-25 conspiracy theory and switch to
the next one : that Ukrainians fired that SA-11 missile.
Forgetting to look at the big picture : If the Russia or the Russian military had nothing to
do with this BUK, then why the heck were they lying through their teeth on July 21 ?
The distance between these two points is approx 65 km. Book's missile could reach 30 km. The
Book's radar reaches even less - under 9 km, That's it.
Antidyatel notherLex21 14 Sep 2014 02:25
Probably true. Which narrows down to the simple choice: was it one of the 4 Ukrainian BUKs
that were known to be in the area or an imaginary rebel's BUK.
If we go strictly and watch the 30 min presentation by Russian MoD, they never accused Su-25
to be responsible for downing the plane. They only stated the fact that the plane was detected
at that time and at that place. If they really wanted to falsely accuse ukie plane they would
not state that it was Su-25.
ShanghaiGuy -> Dunscore 13 Sep 2014 22:11
Crap, 30mm cannon fire would require a sustained burst to cause catastrophic structural failure,
audible on recorders. 30mm cannon is not typical air to air ordance, ground attack on slower aircraft
, taken some chase at high altitude. Sorry your apologists bs is a fairy story.
Ground launched AAM destroyed the airliner.
Antidyatel Hektor Uranga 13 Sep 2014 22:02
My dear Huylo Hector, immediately after the crush every theory was plausible. Each of them
had to be eliminated based on facts. The fairy tail about rebels downing MH17 had an upper habd
in first week because Kerry promised satellite images that clearly prove rebels' s culpability.
After such images didn't materialise, the statement by Kerry became discredited. He had to
be responsible for his words.
So after that any other theory gets the same footing. The assertion that UA downed the plane
became more probable after the data presented by Russian MoD. The quality difference to USA/EUROPE/Ukraine
garbage comes from first presenting all the known fact and then letting everyone else to make
a conclusion. Instead of giving a theory first and then ask to just believe. This stupid idol-worshiping
by westerners will never stop amusing me.
notherLex21 13 Sep 2014 17:17
This Russian expects it was a BUK.
Former Air Force Commander of the USSR and the Russian Army General Peter Deinekin:
"Assault can not hit the plane with their weapons, he is a slow, low-altitude. Besides his
actions could be seen on radar. And striking effect aircraft missiles are not as powerful as
in" Buck "
Shoot down the plane could altitude fighter MiG-29 or Su-27, but it at the time in that
area was not, said the expert.
karl - entrusted with propagating the disinformation campaign?
based on facts alone, there is not a single shred of evidence typing BUK launced by supposed
"rebels" to the downing of MH17. There are, OTOH< quite a few pieces pf evidence pointing to cannon
fire from an aircraft. Funny how the disinformation agents never want to draw attention to evidence
that in any way points away from their favorite scenarios.
Example: Almost all the damage concentrated in cockpit/front fuselage. Now how does that
tie to the BUK scenario exactly? how does the damage from High energy objects conform to sharpnel
from BUK especially as there are both entry and exit holes?
And what of the US intelligence evidence showing people on the ground manning a BUK and wearing
UK uniforms?
I am not suggesting that it's air-to-air or surface to air only. what we know so far may well
conform both were in action. As sedman above mentions.
As for this preliminary report it is quite a piece on work in how hard it strives NOT to point
out some pretty obvious facts.
bobby_fisher ShermanPotter 13 Sep 2014 16:42
Not so fast, you do not need records to be provided that are recorded by the black boxes
It is conversations between civilian and military ATC's that are of interest and there is no mention
of that in your link.
Secr3t krislej 13 Sep 2014 16:34
Are you still trying to convince people of this idea that an SU-25 shot down MH-17.
Maybe the Former head of the Russian Airforce and Army can convince you then?
He states quite clearly that the idea that MH-17 was shot down by an SU-25 as completely untenable,
he goes on to state that it is possible an SU-27 or Mig-29 would be capable but none were in the
area.
He also says that MH-17 broke apart in the air as a result of multiple sharpnel strikes and
that it was likely from a BUK.
And before you cry western conspiracy he stated this in Russian media.
Firing a cannon from the side (the holes show entry from the side) would not get the spread
of damage that you see, and it's unlikely that you could get that many hits in at all given how
quickly you are closing.
A SAM burst (from the kind of missile under suspicion) close to the front left side of the
aircraft would yield a somewhat evenly spaced pattern of holes, as the fragments originate from
one point and spread outwards.
The gun fires 50 rounds per second, at the closing speed, the pilot would have had perhaps
2 seconds to fire, and he got around 30% of them hitting a target moving across him at 500mph?
This theory belongs in Hollywood.
Mrg Billman 13 Sep 2014 14:19
If the Kiev regime can fire and destroy their own APC column like we seen at the begining of
the conflict I have no doubts that they are capable of somehow orchestrating a downing of a civilian
airliner.
Realworldview ShanghaiGuy 13 Sep 2014 14:10
ShanghaiGuy you need to keep up with the evidence, its not my opinion that it was shot down
by a military aircraft, but that of US Intelligence analysts, as reported in US analysts conclude
MH17 downed by aircraft .
The conclusion was that it was damaged by an air to air missile that shreds its target with
flechettes, and then finished off with 30mm cannon fire that was responsible for the circular
holes in fragments of the airframe, as these extracts show:
KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia
Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government
had had something to do with it.
This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200
was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had
been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.
In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts", Associated
Press reporter Robert Parry said "some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and
Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame".
Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation
patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes - the shredding pattern associated
with a warhead packed with "flechettes", and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent
with that of cannon rounds.
Parry's conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration,
there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied
the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian
jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.
bobby_fisher Asimpleguest 13 Sep 2014 12:32
The plane was directed in to the war zone, specifically in to the small area, where 13 aircraft
were already blown out of the sky in just a few weeks.
It could not have happened without some interaction between civilian and military ATC's.....and
these records are completely missing, in fact confiscated by SBU"
isn't shooting down a civilian plane & blaming Putin for it a wonderful way for justifying
sanctions against Russia? venturing far into speculations (quoted journalists have done, so I
follow even if everyone here calls me an idiot).. what if someone decided to bring down a civilian
plane, to make people very angry, cause everything (the West presents) points his way? then the
result arre sanctions, and yuppie, USA can soon replace Russia as the main natural gas providor..
it's been all over the news.. and in the end, it's always about profits for the big multinationals
"The specific area where the fatal missile was fired is not in fact under control of the
"pro-Russia rebels". It is run by a neo-nazi private mercenary army, raised by Ukrainian billionaire
Ihor Kolomoisky.
"Kolomoisky stinks of being an asset of the US and Israeli intelligence services, at minimum.
He holds both Ukrainian and Israeli passports and runs his business empire from Switzerland, not
Kiev, despite being Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine. His mercenary army does
possess the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17, and he has threatened terrorist
attacks on Russian-speaking officials in his oblast, and even assassinations.
"Estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, Kolomoisky also has strong connections
inside Kiev's Borispol International Airport, whose air traffic control tower Ukrainian Interior
Ministry troops reportedly stormed shortly before MH-17 was shot down. New Ukrainian Interior
Minister Arsen Avakov, formerly wanted by Interpol for fraud, was the man who first designated
the east Ukraine rebels as "terrorists," which ostensibly allows him to commit any atrocity against
innocent civilians very much as Israel is doing in Gaza today.
"Furthermore, in a personal interview with the Veterans Today Tbilisi Georgia bureau chief
Jeffrey Silverman pointed shared with Engdahl the possible complicity of the Inmarsat Company
in the MH17. Inmarsat, which lists the Pentagon and US Government as major clients, controls most
international air traffic control communications systems. According to Silverman, during the earlier
disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 the flight was "lost" due to Inmarsat turning
off their signals, and it still refuses today to release the data it has about this flight.
Look what The Guardian left out of its report - just found a more complete report of what the
Dutch chief investigator said:
ROTTERDAM: Dutch prosecutors said today they need to know where a missile that may have shot
down flight MH17 was fired from in eastern Ukraine before criminal charges could be laid.
"When we know from where it was fired, then we can find out who controlled that area," and
possibly prosecute, Dutch chief investigator Fred Westerbeke told journalists in Rotterdam.
Westerbeke said that they had not yet obtained US satellite photos of areas from which a missile
might have been launched.
"We will get them," Westerbeke said, adding that it was a "long process."
errovi 13 Sep 2014 03:07
Dutch Prime Minister Rutte had to acknowledge on TV on September 12th that the Netherlands
had refused to even communicate with the Separatist. This extreme partisan position of the Dutch
government disqualifies it from leading the investigation and has obviously hampered the investigation
up till now.
This extreme partisan position of the Dutch government also clarifies why the role of UkSATSE
isn't questioned. In the chain of events leading to the downing of the aircraft still assuming
it was a mistake the question 'who launched a missile' is actually less relevant than 'who
created the situation by allowing MH17 to fly there'.
UkSATSE failed to close that airspace after july 14 whena AN-24 was downed from 6500m and
only restricted up to 10km. 6500m is beyond the man portable system range. So why didn't
UkSATSE did not close that air space and waited till after the downing of MH17. The report
section 2.4.3 issued by the investigation simply stated that MH17 complied to the restrictions
issued by UkSATSE. By ignoring the most obvious question the investigation was now under serious
doubt but the extreme partisan positioning as revealed by the Dutch minister put that report in
the 'beyond doubt partisan category'.
Antidyatel -> Karl Brandt 13 Sep 2014 05:39
The same AP journalist claimed to see the BUK himself and even the treads inn asphalt tgat
this heavy system had left. But surprisingly he forgot to rake a photo not only of BUK but also
of treads that ge has described so vividly. Spanish traffic controller story actually less contradictory.
Shaneo -> ShiresofEngland 13 Sep 2014 03:06
Immediately after, John Kerry claimed that the US witnessed the rocket launch on 'imagery'.
So let's see it then.
sedman -> ruffsoft 13 Sep 2014 01:15
The BUK system is designed to deliver the payload from above, yes it avoids the target to get
above it, then comes down and explodes above where the cockpit would be... This doesn't explain
videos of MH17 descending intact with its right engine ablaze.
sedman 13 Sep 2014 00:52
Ukraine fighter shoots MH17 with air-to-air missile, takes out right engine. MH17 does not
break up, but heads for a forced landing. Ukraine fighter finishes it off MH17 on its way down.
But, we are lead to believe that the separatists were operating a BUK system made up of 5 separate
mobile installations, 3 radar, 1 launcher and 1 control vehicle, which is capable of identifying
B777 aircraft accurately (two transponders), then decided it would be in their interests to take
out a civilian airliner, which would, even in an idiots assessment, bring the wrath of the world
opon it. They are not terrorists, they are rebels, they are not using IEDs to blow up civilians,
they just dont want to have Kiev taking their taxes and telling them what to do.
On the other hand, if Kiev can shoot down the airliner and blame the separatists, or even
better, Russia, then they would be backed by the west. Who has the most to gain?
Then we have an investigation where all members have to agree with the report or a single
member can veto the release, which is why they are not allowed to assign blame, and why they have
not been allowed to state anything more than they have. The facts that are being released
in this report is evidence enough that the investigation is being manipulated and directed to
ensure that conclusions can not be drawn from facts, all we can rely on is speculation from the
press and comments. I doubt any hard evidence will ever come out, and we will have to settle
for innuendo and finger pointing, allowing the west to isolate Russia even further till the missile
shield network sits right on their borders.
martinusher 12 Sep 2014 23:35
What I find a bit troubling is that the obvious conclusion -- that the plane was hit by
a ground fired missile -- isn't backed up by any intelligence. Its reasonable to think that the
US's NRO is watching the Ukraine closely so they should have been able to get almost real time
confirmation of the launcher's position and use.
Nobody willingly takes down an airliner unless there's serious propaganda to be made from
it. So its either a serious screwup by the rebels or something rather more evil by the blackops
types. (I'd regard the latter as a tinfoil helmet theory except that we've found out time and
again that these people are capable of doing anything provided it achieves their goal.)
ThreeCents JCDavis 12 Sep 2014 20:56
"Everything coming from the UK and US governments is a lie at one level or another and should
be carefully investigated."
I agree very strongly. And I think the key word here is "investigation".
Ah, but who is going to do the investigating?
Well, I would favor an "Investigation Party" -- which would push hard on investigating all
manner of corruption and conspiracy, and which would campaign on that basis.
And I would favor an "Investigation Branch" of government, on the same level as the Legislative,
Executive, and Judicial Branches of government. It would be dedicated to making everything in
government NOT secret! Secrecy = Tyranny. Truth = Liberty.
Click here for more.
UncleSam404 Karl Brandt 12 Sep 2014 20:48
Whatever happened to Carlos anyway lol? I guess they couldn't locate this guy.
tanyushka 12 Sep 2014 20:12
why isn't the International Civil Aviation Organization in charge of the investigation as is
custommay in these cases?
why isn't in charge an international comission as the UN demanded unanimously?
now, if we talk about chances... the Ukranian army had six BUK systems operative at the time
of the incident while the DPR forces deny having a single one but... let's accept Kiev's claims
that there was one, the chances are 6 to 1 that the Ukraninas shot...
on the other hand, Russia claims that there was an Ukranian jet fighter close to the plane
& it isn't even mentionedin the investigation
BMWAlbert 12 Sep 2014 18:01
This seems the most likely possibility, but I wonder at the release without any backing detail,
it sounds like intended innuendo also.
William J Rood EnviroCapitalist 12 Sep 2014 17:55
Yes indeed, US satellite data is highly secret unless it backs up the US Government's claims.
I don't suppose you're old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis and the release of all
sort of reconnaissance on the matter.
If the US government had any real evidence whatsoever, you'd have seen that rather than all
the photo-shopped social media stuff that's been going around. Lack of evidence is why CIA analysts
have refused to support the State Department's lies. They learned their lesson from the Iraq War.
Did you?
Rob711 12 Sep 2014 17:35
The shooting down scenario. Obviously they haven't picked up on some of the perfectly round
holes in some of the debris. Never mind the question of why the unfortunate plane and it's passengers
were flying over an area where 5 planes had been downed in the preceding two weeks
More propaganda, but something which hasn't been answered to my satisfaction.
So let's tread carefully and just ask a few more questions that these so-called journalists
in the mainstream media are neglecting to ask. For example: Why hasn't the US government released
its satellite pictures of the area right after the event?
Obviously the USA would have satellites watching, and did expect after it happened that the
White House would do some sort of presentation after a few days to prove who shot down MH17. They
were quick to accuse and had hoped they had the evidence which would be damning, but they haven't.
ShiresofEngland Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 16:43
Yes, and that is disputed. Each side keeps coming up with propaganda where not one of us knows
the truth.
ps the the poster below. It isn't 'lazy self indulgence'. Saying that I do not know who done
it is a valid position, and more honest than most on here. Like everyone with any compassion I
believe that the relatives of the victims of MH17 deserve the truth, something they have thus
far not got.
Luminaire ruffsoft 12 Sep 2014 16:33
That would mean a Ukrainian jet yes? Which the russian's showed radar data proving? Just before
MH17 vanishes you can see a second trace, which the RU MOD say is a fighter jet.
Except it doesn't. The MH17 trace splits in two, because one part is the 'supposed' location
(based on the flightplan and predicted path), and the supposed SU-25 is actually MH17 as it breaks
up.
The reason this is obvious to anyone who actually does any research is that 'MH17' becomes
a square, and the 'SU-25' is a circle. In that software the circle represents a 'real' radar contact,
and the square is a predicted path - as squares always are.
If there was a jet as well there would be 2 circles and a square, because MH17 did just VANISH
so there would have been 2 'real' radar contacts.
So there was no SU-25 - but hey dont let that stop you literally making stuff up and being
'quite sure' about it.
Nicole Bresht -> krislej 12 Sep 2014 16:13
A ground missile would have caused the MG17 to explode in a fireball... seems as if the cockpit
had been shot out with an airborne cannon... not sure an SU fighter could reach needed speed/
height to pull this off.. more likely a MIG
ide000 -> ShermanPotter 12 Sep 2014 16:05
So far today we've had the SU25 shot down MH-17, and now this. You seem to be absolutely desperate
to hang this onto anybody other than Russia. Even coming up with ridiculous scenarios to try and
prove your case.
Lets be precise, Russian ministry of defense didn't reliably identify plain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKhA50erngk
at 14:04). They claim the plain was supposed to be SU-25.
Actually I expected of Dutch experts at least to clarify whether they confirm or do not confirm
presence of military jet in vicinity of MH17.
Brian Beuken LeWillow 12 Sep 2014 15:50
I very much doubt it was a deliberate act, possibly incompetence on the part of the BUK operators...
But it was a BUK, the problem is while we can all spot the smoking gun we can't find enough
of the "bullet" to silence the doubters...so lets lay out some facts and let them make up their
own minds.
Fragmentation patterns can contain a large number of holes that appear to look like "bullet"
holes, but they are simply penetration holes
However there are a lot of holes in a small area in the MH17 pics, this is highly indicative
of a fragmentation warhead which can also explain some of the more isolated holes in other parts
of the fuselage, the fragments can spread out from the nose to the tail but the concentration
will be where the missile was closest where it exploded
Also the holes are fairly small, bullet size some may say.. But modern warplanes do not fire
bullets, they fire 30mm shells...quite devastating weapons which when fired from a moving target
at a moving target leave a very clear trail, and a normally short burst of fire.
Its logistically highly improbably that a ground attack aircraft, without a pressurised cockpit
and not designed to take out air targets, with a max ceiling of 23k ft (unloaded) could get to
a 33K ft airliner at cruising speed which is faster than the Su25's top speed..... But that's
what some want us to believe...but if it did... it has a 30mm cannon...not itty bitty machine
guns....and it would be one hell of a pilot who could get of dozens of shots in the same basic
area... (lets also not ignore the fact that the pilot would know he was attacking a civil aircraft...pilots
are generally pretty clever people, and know when they are committing war crimes)
It could have been another aircraft, Ukraine and Russia both operate high speed interceptors...but
again there's the problem with the gun.....they use cannons, not shotguns or itty bitty machine
guns.
Some suggest that an air to air missile might then be the cause of the fragmentation...but
this also is problematic, most AA missiles are not powerful enough to take out a large civil aircraft.
Many instances of smaller less well built passenger planes surviving AA strikes have been recorded...But
2 or 3 might do it..but the pilots would surely called Mayday.. They didn't, suggesting they had
no idea what hit them,
Of course, there's always the lucky shot..but I doubt that...
Iron has been recovered, many SAM's use Iron, some use steel bearings some use both....but
shells are depleted uranium....so no shells....no bullets...(bullets are not iron).
So these are facts....
Make of them what you wish...but I'm struggling to see anything other than a large SAM....I don't
know from who, or why, that's a different question...
ShiresofEngland 12 Sep 2014 15:47
The plane went down over territory held by pro-Russia rebels, killing all 298 passengers
and crew on board.
Oh I get it so the implication is........
Actually nothing as the launch site isn't known, and could just as easily been fired from Ukrainian
or rebel held territory.
A rebel officer told AP after the disaster that the plane was shot down by a mixed team
of rebels and Russian military personnel who believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military
plane. Intercepted phone conversations between the rebels released by the Ukrainian government
support that version of events.
Which might be true, but there again might not and hasn't been verified. Might be propaganda
and the source is hardly impartial.
So what do we know? Highly probable that it was a BUK which brought down MH17. Ukraine has these
weapon systems, the rebels may have captured one but how serviceable is questionable, and the
Russians may have lent one with a crew but that hasn't been definitely verified. All of them could
have been in the area, or maybe not.
Conclusion: Still no closer to knowing which side brought it down, whether it was just
a cock up, or a black flag. Plenty of propaganda, accusations, denials, but any real evidence
so far is very thin on the ground.
madjens1 12 Sep 2014 15:28
It's funny how the press are falling over themselves to say it was definitely Russians,
the EU are desperate for it to be Russians, the Americans are desperate for it to be Russians
- so when something factual comes out that doesn't toe the expectant line they have to drop in
the odd implication and suggested line.
Then the idiots who read the guardian (who otherwise reject foreign countries being bismirched)
swallow it all up
KeloCote Mrg Billman 12 Sep 2014 14:54
That would be true had the Ukrainians not warned the plane to stay away. In fact, ground control
ordered the plane to climb to a higher altitude, and the pilot disobeyed.
During its recent war on Gaza, Israel kept insisting that it's perfectly safe for civil aviation
to continue landing in its airport near Tel Aviv. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rockets
were flying near the whole path that a plane would take to land - at a time of Hamas's choosing.
Israel was firing even more dangerous missiles at those rockets. Any claim that it's safe for
civilian airlines to fly under such conditions is fundamentally dishonest. But Israel does not
want to admit they've lost control over their 'sovereign' airspace. Similarly, Ukraine did not
want to admit they're lost control over their 'sovereign' airspace, because there's a war going
on. However, in this particular instance, ground control warned the pilot to divert to a higher
altitude using a false pretext. Regardless of the false pretext, the pilot should have diverted
- and by not doing so - is responsible.
Realworldview 12 Sep 2014 14:36
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17: 'most likely' it was shot down from ground
Since when did a ground to air anti-aircraft missile use 30mm cannon shells to destroy its
target. The evidence strongly points to it being a military aircraft that downed MH17 as Dutch
Safety Board (DSB) Report: Malaysian MH17 was Brought Down by "A Large Number of High Energy Objects",
Contradicts US Claims that it Was Shot Down by a "Russian Missile" argues, despite the heavy
coat of varnish that's clearly been applied to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) report.
EugeneGur Dunscore 12 Sep 2014 14:18
This scenario is just as unproved and likely unprovable as all the others. It's clear that
Kiev benefited the most from the event, and the US exploited is to the fullest to impose sanctions
on Russia before any investigation was even initiated. The reluctance of both Kiev and the US
to provide evidence required for the investigation is bound to raise questions.
One would think given how fiercely the US accused Russia they'd be happy to provide evidence
against Russia if they had any. Could that be that the evidence they have point the other way?
And, of course, that non-disclosure agreement, which looks like an attempt at a coverup. Otherwise,
why?
This horrible tragedy has been and no doubt will be exploited for petty political gains.
I am sorry to see even the Dutch entering this shameful game by signing that non-disclosure agreement
with one of the suspects, the Kiev government.
DownSouth77 Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 13:32
Your maximum altitude is generally restricted by 2 factors. The first being that the maximum
altitude is reached when all power produced by the engines is going into maintaining the altitude.
Thus no more power is left available for the aircraft to climb any further. The second factor
is pressurization. Thus the max psi differential between the atmosphere and cabin. When the airframe
can't withstand the differential value between the cabin and the atmosphere the consequences can
and will probably be very bad. This should not be a factor on the SU-25...as its more applicable
to airliners (which in turn can reach roughly 40,000' before this becomes a factor)
Thus back to the maximum altitude and the power produced by the engines. Thats btw also the
reason why when they strip armament from an aircraft they reduce the weight etc and in turn can
reach a heigher altitude with the same engines. Now the first problem here is that everybody assumes
the stock version of the SU-25 (which has a max operating altitude of 7km) is the SU-25 the ukrainians
used. Thus its impossible for it to reach an altitude of 10km etc.
However...lets look at the SU-39...which is in fact a SU-25 which is upgraded...the max altitude
for this aircraft is 10km. Furthermore...the Sukhoi lists its export model the SU-25K as having
a max altitiude of 7km...that specific variant. We dont know for sure that Ukraine has any SU-25
variant that are upgraded enough to reach an altitiude of 10km. However we do know it is definitely
possible for a SU-25 (depending on engines etc) to reach 10km. In short...its useless to quote
the wiki or generic version of the SU-25 max altitiude as reference in saying its impossible to
reach 10km.
In the late 90's Sukhoi 25''s could already reach altitiudes in excess of 8.5km's.
Hope all this makes sense :)
Dunscore Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 13:29
Thanks for the information !
1) Reuters. Sadly this 100-year old British company has been compromised being taken over
by a Canadian company belonging to zionists. Canadian PM Harper is a blind follower of Israeli
extremists. So V Putin is enemy number one and you can't use Reuters as an unbiased source once
more. Russia has had to up its game recently in the Arctic purely because Harper has become aggressive
to please the US.
2) Obviously the incidents are in Crimea etc are orchestrated by Kiev.
Any other explanation is nonsense. The nazi volunteers are the usual suspects. Let's hope that
Mr Nuizmieks is given a chance to see the truth. We should prepare for the McCain trolls to try
to blame any social problems on V Putin.
Dunscore EugeneGur 12 Sep 2014 13:16
I agree with all your thoughts.
Kiev Russian-speaking soldiers disguised as Donbass security forces ("rebels") could have
driven a Buk into the Donbass, fired the missile and then driven back, making sure to be seen
by foreign journalists ( Ukraine is a huge country, how come the journalists were on the same
spot at the right moment to see the Buk driving around ? very convenient..)
The US and Israel both have motives to shoot the plane down. They had been convicted of
war crimes in KL last year and their cases sent to the ICC in Holland. MH17 was also full of Dutch
passengers - right www.criminisewar.org
Plus, the ukraine airforce is in a bad state due to lack of funds. So the US and Israelis
were providing assistance, also Poland and Lithuania, of pilots and equipment. No-one knows who
was piloting the two Su-25s detected by Russian radar.
Russia asked Ukraine 12 crucial questions a month ago - still no answer.
US produced absolutely no professional evidence for the enquiry, nothing except boasting trolls.
Retired veteran CIA secret data analysts wrote a group letter to Obama and Merkel to condemn
US for bringing their profession into disrepute.
Russia provided comprehensive data and evidence to the investigation.
KeloCote Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 13:15
I did not speculate on why the pilot did not want to climb. It make no difference. By refusing
the order the pilot assumed responsibility for the fate of the plane. Civil aviation pilots have
no "right" to refuse orders of competent ground authorities and still enjoy the protections granted
by international treaties to civil aviation.
I don't understand your statement about the "report says there was no abnormal communication".
Are you contesting my claim that the pilot refused an order to climb up just minutes before being
hit? I'm basing my claim on what I read in previous articles in the Guardian on this. It could
be wrong. I wasn't there personally.
Rudeboy1 DownSouth77 12 Sep 2014 12:32
The SA-11 has a proximity fused warhead. The missile detonates when it senses it is close to
the target (proximity fuses then called Variable Time Fuses were used as far back as WW2 by the
US and UK) . Fragmentation at the front end of the aircraft would indicate that the warhead detonated
at the front of the aircraft. Damage from the warhead would be localised. Most SAM's (except the
most modern) rely on prox fuses as the massive speeds they work at mean a direct impact isn't
always possible (particularly on a manoeuvering target).
But you're wrong on the SU-25. There is no way an SU-25 can intercept an airliner at 30,000
travelling at >500kn when that is above the height and speed that the SU-25 can operate at. If
you know why it could please let us all know why.
fragglerokk 12 Sep 2014 12:19
of course he says that, the Dutch people would go nuts if they knew that Shell have signed
a $10 billion fracking deal with the Ukraines who shot down a load of their citizens, it would
be really bad for business especially since they have already started fracking Slavyansk after
the Ukie artillery bombed it out of existence and created 1000s of refugees. The truth will out,
the problem is they are all in it together, money, oil, gas, failed coups, up to their necks in
it. The non disclosure agreement signed by the Dutch, the belgians, the Ukraines and Australians
says it all, no facts, no figures and no details.. total fit up.
Malkatrinho -> LeWillow 12 Sep 2014 12:19
As the bookmaker William Hill once said "Believe nothing of what you hear, and believe only
5% of what you see, and be very suspicious of that 5%."
That's got to be one of the most random quotes I've read.
EugeneGur 12 Sep 2014 12:13
Typical Guardian, impartial and objective as ever. Do these conclusions point to the hand that
launched these "high energy objects"? No, they do not. Even if it is proven beyond any doubt that
the airplane was shot down by ground-to-air missile or even specifically by Buk, does it prove
who did the shooting? No, it does not.
However, pro-Russian rebels are mentioned more than once, so there is no chance to forget who
is supposed to be blamed.
It is possible that Donbass fighters shot down that plane by mistake thinking that was Kiev's
plane coming to bomb their cities. Kiev could've done that as well, in its case likely deliberately.
For some reason, they did have Buks in that area, although separatists do not have airplanes.
Proving which scenario is correct would be difficult. Connecting Russia to this would be even
harder if not impossible. Nobody would bother, though. If "Russia" is repeated often enough, some
dirt will stick no matter what. It's been done already quite successfully.
maico ruffsoft 12 Sep 2014 12:13
The report says there was no shrapnel damage bellow the cockpit floor. This means we can discount
an air to air missile which is heat seeking and would hit the engine. The engine is of course
well bellow the cockpit level.
The shrapnel holes are various sizes and shapes pointing strongly to a proximity air-burst
from a radar guided SAM. Obviously once most of the wreckage is recovered and reassembled in a
hanger a definitive answer can be given. Shell casing and powder burn evidence may still be recoverable
although I expect Russian security services have tampered with the wreckage.
Robert Looren de Jong -> Trabecula 12 Sep 2014 12:12
BERA: Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein today denied reports in the social media
that Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH17 was shot down by fighter jets.
He said intelligence and evidence gathered from the fragments of the ill-fated aircraft clearly
showed it was shot down by missiles that were launched to the air from the ground.
"Based on military intelligence and evidence from a portion of fragments found, it is not likely
the bullets were used from air to air but from surface to air. "Whether these were owned by Ukraine
or the rebels who supplied by Russia. the bullets must have come from BUK System and this matter
cannot be denied by Europe, Nato or Russia," he told reporters after officiating the Bera Umno's
Wanita, Youth and Puteri wing division meeting here today. still trying to recycle that old debunked
and proven wrong narrative?
KeloCote 12 Sep 2014 12:10
The pilot is responsible. He was ordered by Ukrainian air-traffic control to fly to higher
altitude, and refused the order. Formally they told him it's because of other planes in the area,
but more likely they knew it was unsafe to fly it being a war zone - and simply didn't want to
admit they don't have control over territory they claim as their own. By refusing the order to
fly higher - the pilot assumed responsibility for flying in a dangerous path. Since the pilot
is dead - the airline is responsible.
Trabecula Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 12:05
Also, the next day the extremely competent and knowledgable Malay minister said:
"Hishammuddin said he was personally confident that flight MH17 was shot with a BUK missile
based on his experience and knowledge as a defence minister. Hence, he advised the people not
to be easily influenced by speculation and rumours being spread in the media social."
I would like to put the emphasis on "personally confident" as well as on the title: "unlikely
shot down by jet fighter".
It's probably jut another "hunch" he had, like the one of MH370 having crashed in the Southern
Indian Ocean... Or in Bangladesh... Or having landed in Pakistan... Or maybe a few miles closer
to Australia. Well done Sir!
Trabecula Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 11:58
Is this Russian, Malay or US propaganda:
NST 7th August:
"KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia
Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government
had had something to do with it"
Do you really expect anyone sane and humane to believe any news coming from Israeli media?!
Gosh...
SHappens 12 Sep 2014 11:27
What a timely article and what an empty statement. Most likely, probably, it seems, could be,
looks like.
Conclusion: "It is going to be a long investigation," he said, while remaining cautious about
what results the international investigation might achieve.
Trabecula 12 Sep 2014 11:25
De Jong and his mates: you should read the news straight from NST, not any other "repost" or
reference, be it RT.com or ET.mars. Go back to early August news (4th or 7th, if not mistaken)
and check out their official opinion on the subject. I've been in Malaysia for 2 weeks last month
and though they're pretty careful with what they say - because of they western counterparts -
and they truly blame both sides (this is subject is overhelming there), they have little doubt
that it was shot down by a jet fighter. And this is supported by german and american experts so
be careful with what you are being "fed".
Western media never reported this though western countries only needed a few hours to "choose"
who to blame for this tragic war crime.
DownSouth77 Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 11:08
Firstly a Su-25 could have shot it down...no doubt about that. Its just a matter of if it happened
that way.
I have a question...something I haven't seen mentioned really. while I know aviation (work
in the industry) I have very little knowledge of the BUK missle system...therfore the question.
Why is the cockpit riddled with holes...yet other pieces of the aircraft as almost no holes
in it. Wouldn't it be that if a BUK did it that the COMPLETE body of aircraft would have had similar
amount of damage caused by projectiles? Yet I haven't seen one other piece of the wreckage that
had near the type of projectile damage than the cockpit section. Why is that...for those saying
it was a BUK missile that caused that damage to the cockpit section?
REUTERS - The United States announced more sanctions against Russia on Friday, affecting oil
and defense industries and further limiting the access of major Russian banks to U.S. debt and
equity markets to punish Russia for its intervention in Ukraine.
The sanctions, which for the first time targeted Russia's Sberbank, were timed to coincide
with new European Union economic penalties that included restrictions on financing for some Russian
state-owned companies and asset freezes on leading Russian politicians.
The sanctions could be rolled back if Moscow withdrew its forces from Ukraine and established
a buffer zone along the border among other conditions, a senior U.S. official said.
SocialistPig 12 Sep 2014 11:00
retired Russian army Colonel Mikhail Khodarenok believes the fact that international investigators
have thus far failed to provide conclusive evidence suggests that they have something to hide.
"You can find out what kind of missile was used against a downed plane one day after it was
crashed," the retired colonel told The Moscow Times. During his career, Khodarenok operated S-75
and S-200 air defense systems.
"Each missile type has its own shrapnel imprint. The shrapnel should have been preserved in
the elements of the aircraft itself as well as in the bodies of the victims," he said.
zelazny fintan 12 Sep 2014 10:54
The Malaysian government disagrees with you and has reported that its experts say a fighter
jet brought the plane down by first hitting it with a missile and then firing 30mm bullets into
both sides of the fuselage.
Photos of the fuselage contain unmistakable bullet holes. Anti-Putin people can deny the evidence
and ignore the opinions of the Malaysian experts, but the fact remains that bullets can't travel
30,000 feet into the air and they must have come from a fighter jet.
The USA certainly has known this fact from day 1, as have all of the Nato governments. They
just can't figure out any positive spin, so they have decided to delay the release of the report
for a year or so in the hope the public will forget.
I wonder how much it will cost to make the family members of the dead forget?
Jiri 12 Sep 2014 10:54
If there was any evidence that the Russians or the East Ukrainians were responsible for the
downing of MH17 it would have been made widely available and the maximum political mileage extracted
from it.
Standupwoman -> daveydor 12 Sep 2014 10:53
On this scale, and with so few voices to speak against it - yes. This is the first time I'm
aware of where the US has effectively dictated the script for the entire western msm without even
the Guardian offering a dissenting view.
Since you find my massive 2.26 posts a day so disconcerting, I assume you'd like to drive all
dissent from the comments too.
zelazny -> RoyalBludger 12 Sep 2014 10:50
Those look like large caliber bullet holes to me, and I have seen a lot of bullet holes in
sheet metal.
And I don't know of any rifle in the world, large caliber or small, that can shoot 30,000 feet
or more. None can fire accurately even with the most skilled shooter at more than 2475 meters,
the longest confirmed sniper kill.
So if bullets hit the plane, they must have come from a fighter jet's 30mm cannon.
The Malaysian government thinks this happened, but of course their opinion has no role in the
Nato cover up.
zelazny -> EnviroCapitalist 12 Sep 2014 10:44
Obama has Guantanamo? What equivalent does Putin have?
Obama tortures people and doesn't allow them to have a trial at all in most cases, and if they
get one, they get a secret, military tribunal, in violation of the US constitution.
In his 6 years in office, Obama has pardoned 52 people, despite the fact that US prisons hold
over 2 million.
Putin has pardoned thousands, including his billionaire political opponent Mikhail Khodorkovsky.
The comments threads on western sites show the massive love of war and mass murder among ordinary
citizens like you, deceived by a life time of high tech propaganda. Western citizens like to compare
those they fear to Hitler, not realizing that the victors in WWII deliberately slaughtered German
and Japanese civilians by the millions. War criminals fought WWII, and some lost and some won.
But all decent people lost in WWII, because since then the US and Nato have turned the world
into a charnel house of war.
flyingdutchman Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 10:43
More usually SU25's carry armour piercing or APHE rounds. These will explode on impact even
with a soft structure. Even allowing a slight delay after encountering an aircraft's skin these
will then detonate leaving a much larger hole.
Simple armor piercing rounds will not explode. APHE rounds will, but with a delay of around
one millisecond or slightly less. Since the round travels at several thousand feet per second
(and won't be slowed down significantly by anything in the aircraft's structure since the rounds
are designed to punch through half an inch of hardened steel with ease) the explosion will only
take place a few feet beyond the aircraft's skin. Also, fragments from the explosion will tend
to be projected forward.
Although aluminium isn't massively strong, it is stressed on an airliner. It's also not usually
followed by empty air.
Beneath the aircraft's skin there are structural parts (stringers and frames) with insulation
in between. The structure is all aluminum, except for very few parts at the front that are reinforced
with titanium in order to better resist bird strikes. Anyway, nothing compared to the stuff the
average 30mm projectile is designed to deal with.
OpiumAddict Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 10:41
no evidence the rebels ever had a working Buk or anyone trained to use it.
definite proof that Ukraine had several working Buks in the area with crews.
dion13 zelazny 12 Sep 2014 10:37
On 13 August, Pravda published a highly plausible version of the tragedy:
"Boeing-777 was downed by Ukrainian MiG-29, expert says"
[...] the Romanian expert believes that it was not a Ukrainian Su-25, as the plane could not
reach the altitude of 10,300 meters and strike the Boeing due to the poor level of training of
Ukrainian flight personnel and technical imperfection of old Su-25. Vasilescu indicates that radars
show Su-25 identically to MiG-29 fighter jet, as the planes have identical reflective surface
area [...] The fleet of the Ukrainian Air Force has fighter aircraft MiG-29 that are capable of
intercepting Boeing-777. The fighters are based near Kiev and in Ivano-Frankivsk.
ruffsoft 12 Sep 2014 10:23
An exploding missile would hit the bottom of the plane as it approached and would scatter shrapnel
over the entire plane. The fact is that only the cockpit is heavily penetrated, and from the sides,
both sides (entrance and exit holes are not hard to distinguish), which points to an air assault
targeting the cockpit to disable the pilots.
Since the Ukraine has veto power over publication of the findings, this whole investigation
is a whitewash. Why isn't Russia part of the investigation with veto power? Giving one of the
suspects in a crime the ability to block publication of the findings is ludicrous.
Can someone explain how a missile from the ground would produce both exit and entrance punctures
in the cockpit on the sides? That seems impossible.
This is just a phony investigation, with the lead suspect having veto power.
High resolution photos from the following link show clearly holes which are pushed out and
in. I am not forensic expert but I can tell in from out.
A missile with exploding shrapnel would not produce in and out holes; the only way to get that
result is to shoot from both sides. And a missile exploding would effect the bottom of the plane,
in a random pattern; the holes in the plane are in the cockpit from the sides, both sides.
Take a look: holes punched out, holes pushed in: draw your own conclusions because the investigation
will never reveal this fact, since Ukraine has veto power over the findings being published.
The photos provided show the pilots were targeted, something an ground to air missile could
not do. Also the holes across one of the wings are in a line, such as a machine gun would produce,
not a random explosion. The theory of a missile from the ground cannot explain the photographic/physical
evidence.
Only an assault from the air makes sense once you examine the evidence provided by the photos
Please take a look, especially at the closeup at
http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
which shows holes with raised edges (exit) and holes with pushed in edges (entrance).
ruffsoft 12 Sep 2014 10:04
The nations investigating have signed an agreement not to publish results unless all parties
reach a consensus. If the parties found evidence of Ukrainian responsibility, Ukraine would veto
and it would not be published. This form of censorship makes an independent investigation impossible,
as well as its publication if it were.
I am quite sure that bullets are "high energy objects" but the Western media seems to ignore
that possibility, as it would implicate Ukraine, which has veto power over any publication of
findings.
For me, the clincher is that only the front part (cockpit) of the plane was penetrated----a
missile that exploded would not target the cockpit---and that the holes in the cockpit show both
exit and entrance punctures---something compatible only with being fired on from both sides. A
missile would only penetrate from one side. It is not hard to distinguish an entrance and an exit
hole, as one is push in, the other out.
This investigation is, by agreement, not independent or impartial, since the Ukraine can block
publication of any findings it does not like.
It's just one more piece of the propaganda effort to demonize Russia and thus cover up the
crimes of the Kiev regime
Dunscore -> Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 10:02
However, Russian mass media information proved to be a fake. On September 9, the Dutch
Safety Board published the report, the paragraph 2.5.4 of which says that Ukrainian State Air
Traffic Services Enterprise provided the recording and a transcript of the radio and telephone
communications regarding flight MH17
Just a little tip. Don't ever use anything that comes out of the Kiev offices. It is all
100% unbelievable. All of it. There are so many different agendas by so many groups fighting
each other like cats and dogs, all in the same buildings, that it is no wonder that so much confusion
reigns there.
Dunscore -> Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 09:44
John McCain has taught you well.
You and he are obviously students of the "Shout it loud and shout it again and again" Goebbels
doctrine -- If you are so desperate to put your case, go and join the police investigative team.
You're such a cut and paste expert with carefully selected bits from wikipedia, they will find
you useful somewhere.
There's a flood of misinformation this morning. Much more than normal.
You're louder than you normally are.
Usually McCain orders the whole team out when the yanks have got something that they particularly
want to distract from the public gaze.
Most of your team is talking about the Buk again, sticking to the same old story, so obviously
you are worried that the Dutch will latch onto the truth. Well they have nine months to find it,
so you and your team of parrots will have to work very hard to keep them distracted. Best of luck
!
Given the fact that the steady level flight (in kilometers) above the ceiling is impossible,
How do you KNOW that is true? Do you know every single situation where it might not be true. Are
you an expert ? I don't mean a cut and paste expert..
Keep writing, keep writing... you and your mates have got to keep the dutch police distracted.
!
Keep writing Keep writing !
Bye...
medievil -> Yatvyag 12 Sep 2014 09:38
shot down over the Persian Gulf in 1988 by the SM-2 surface-to-air missile launched from the
USS Vincennes. As a result of the Iranian Flight 655 catastrophe 290 passengers were killed including
60 children. The author emphasizes that after the incident American top officials not only dismissed
all the accusations but blamed the Iranian pilot. However, nearly seven weeks after the tragedy
the Pentagon had to recognize that all the "facts" the American top officials were referring to
in order to shift the burden of responsibility on the Iranians were wrong. Strangely enough, the
Pentagon's 53-page report on the incident "still concluded that the captain and all the other
Vincennes officers acted properly."
Although Fred Kaplan, the defense correspondent of the Boston Globe at that time, pointed repeatedly
to the numerous embarrassing discrepancies in the Pentagon's narrative, the US senior officers
qualified them as inessential. The most shocking fact, revealed in 1992 was that the USS Vincennes
was in the Iranian waters when it shot down the Iranian Flight 655, not in international as the
Pentagon reported in 1988.
"Vice President George H.W. Bush, who was running to succeed Ronald Reagan as president, said
on the campaign trail, "I will never apologize for the United States - I don't care what the facts
are," cites Fred Kaplan and adds bitterly, "Not until eight years later did the US government
compensate the victims' families, and even then expressed "deep regret," not an apology." Medals
awarded While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the U.S. government has, to
date, neither admitted any wrongdoing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologized, but continues
to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action
ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation Medal
for "heroic achievement", his "ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire" having
enabled him to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure." According to a 23 April
1990 article printed in The Washington Post, the Legion of Merit was presented to Captain Rogers
and Lieutenant Commander Lustig for their performance in the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988. The
citations did not mention the downing of the Iran Air flight at all.
Денис Панкратов -> fintan 12 Sep 2014 09:31
If you're interested, I would say. And in Washington and in the Netherlands have long known
who shot down the "Boeing". But will hide the truth to the end. Because this really does not fit
into the ongoing today geopolitics.
Geopolitics, as a rule, the subject is extremely pragmatic and cynical. For it not only 200
dead, for her and 200 thousand dead - empty words ...
Dunscore 12 Sep 2014 09:26
A rebel officer told AP after the disaster that the plane was shot down by a mixed team
of rebels and Russian military personnel who believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military
plane.
This is the ENTIRE source for the western case that a Buk shot MH17 down. It is a complete
lie. The officer was never named, the story was never verified. The officer does not exist. Evidence
please, if you disagree?
Canonman -> Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 09:17
That area has been under satellite surveillance for a long time by various US, NATO and Russian
satellites - after all it is a war zone. Rest assured that there will be coverage of that area
by various satellites.
Perhaps you should lay off the personal insults? Or do you get off on being rude or a dick
- 'Rudeboy-1'?
Hansueli LeWillow 12 Sep 2014 09:16
Well, before engaging in wild speculation, why not start from a simple possibility, like a
simple fuck-up by the guys on the trigger? Seems far more likely than any hypothetical planned
shoot down by CIA or anybody else, including Russia.
Dunscore Rudeboy1 12 Sep 2014 09:16
Of course the utter idiots that gave a highly advanced surface to air missile system to a bunch
of idiots are not responsible at all.....it was just a mistake. I'm sure the relatives will understand.
Your master McCain taught his baby trolls well -- But why do we always get the uneducated ones.
Where is all your written evidence for your silly story ? Let's see something on paper and
not just oral bullshit...
JCDavis mraak 12 Sep 2014 09:09
Since it hit the cockpit and not the tail, it had to be fired from the direction where the
plane was headed.
Not true. If it was fired from an aircraft well below the 777, the impact could have had the
same signature. And depending on the guidance system, it could have hit the same area no matter
where it was fired from--
Electro-optical seekers can be programmed to target vital area of an aircraft, such as the
cockpit.
Dunscore Robert Looren de Jong 12 Sep 2014 09:08
nd as such it is consitant with a buk missile
If you can't even spell consistent, why should we pay any attention to wha you say ?
Everyone is suddenly an expert on missile ballistics.
Tell your audience please the source of all your qualifications.
A PhD from Ronald McDonald's University ?
Two german military pilots saw all the wreckage on the crash site and with 30 years experience,
they made a careful detailed explanation over several A4 sides explaining why it was NOT a Buk.
Have you read that ? Why do you contradict that ? Come on, let's have your knowledge on the table
--
McCain would be proud of you, you follow his script so well.
What will you do when your master loses his job at the next US election?
Canonman 12 Sep 2014 08:31
All of this is just speculation.
Question 1: where are the Satellite images of that area at that exact time?
Question 2: where are the audio transmissions between the crew and the flight towers?
Question 3: why did the BBC remove its own segment that was done shortly afterwards where they
had people on record stating that they had seen a jet flying behind if?
Question 4: who ordered the BBC remove its own segment?
Question 5: If the pilots where shot at by a 'jet' as is believed by many - what about the autopsies
of the pilots? Were any done? What did they find.
Question 6: if a BUK missile had taken it down how come there was not a trail from the missile?
These missiles do leave a rather distinctive trial behind them that is seen for kilometers.
Question 7: who ordered the plane to fly lower than was deemed safe for that area?
So many questions and so little facts… Perhaps they questions do not fit the narrative?
michaelantony 12 Sep 2014 08:19
This investigation is a colossal waste of time and money and European taxpayers should demand
an end to it. We all know what happened to the plane: it was shot down by accident while flying
over a war zone where surface to air missiles were in constant use over previous days. None of
the belligerents had an interest in shooting in down: whoever did it mistook it for a military
craft belonging to the enemy. To try to find out which group to pin the blame on serves no purpose
whatever except to further the warmongering agenda of NATO, which is trying to provoke the 3rd
World War with Russia or justify even more crushing sanctions to grind Russia's population into
further poverty. The real culprits for this horrible accident were Malaysia Airlines for flying
over a war zone to save money and the aviation authorities for allowing them to do so. Those are
the heads that should roll.
LeWillow -> psygone 12 Sep 2014 08:07
But you have to ask the question 'why would Putin shoot down a Malaysian passenger plane?
It make no sense and would be completely stupid, and I don't think Putin is stupid somehow.
The CIA on the other hand (and US Govt) would have a lot to gain from shooting down a plane and
blaming it on Putin. They also have previous form when it comes to blowing planes out of the air.
Standupwoman -> daveydor 12 Sep 2014 08:05
Correct. I joined in 2012 to participate in the Bradley Manning conversation. I have an abhorrence
of evil, and the silence of mass media regarding its victims.
What world do you inhabit where such an attitude makes a person 'unreal'?
LeWillow -> daveydor 12 Sep 2014 08:02
"Actually what I find shocking is the bizarre pretence of you people to be real."
By being 'real' do you mean believing everything the Western media tell us and everything the
US Government. Is that what being 'real' involves?
If it is, then you can keep it for yourself.
jdanforth -> Martin Adams 12 Sep 2014 08:01
Apparently it was an entire year before Libya was blamed -first it was Iran. Al Megrahi's alleged
accomplice was found not guilty, and when al Megrahi was granted a chance to appeal his case in
court, he was abruptly released instead.
In the case of Lockerbie, satellite imagery was immediately
provided by both France and the US, and that was in the 1980s!
ChristopherMyers 12 Sep 2014 08:01
They are sooo hoping it was East Ukrainian fighters supplied by Russia, sounding more like a witch
hunt all the time. I wouldn't rule out the Azov Battalion, they were in the area, they have Russian
accents, and BUK's, they murder civilians because they are Russian, like in Odessa. They still
don't know if it was a missile, or if it was an air to air or surface to air, or bullets from
a Ukrainian fighter jet (which would be intent on targeting the cockpit). Forensics though, will
reveal what struck it, then place the blame. Why not wait until then to burn the witch?
Carl Jones 12 Sep 2014 08:00
The preliminary report suggests MH17 was hit by multiple impacts. There are pictures on the
alternative media that shows a section of the plane near the cockpit that was strafed by machine
gun fire after it had been hit by an air to air rocket[s]. The preliminary finding are inconsistent
with a ground to air rocket and their is no evidence to this effect.
Quite simply, this is a cover up.
SaoPaulo 12 Sep 2014 07:56
The mere fact that the United States MSM has dropped this topic like a hot potato (compare
CNN coverage of MH17 with the endless coverage of MH370) and the complete lack of verified NATO
or US or CIA satellite data implies that the Russians were not at fault here.
JCDavis -> palindrome 12 Sep 2014 07:55
Everything coming from the UK and US governments is a lie at one level or another and should
be carefully investigated. But of course there is no one to do that as the press is almost totally
subverted.
palindrome 12 Sep 2014 07:50
he drew comparisons with the investigation into the Lockerbie bombing that took years
to identify suspects.
Excellent comparison, the Lockerbie investigation is a great example of how investigators dismissed
obvious clues as to the true perpetrators and used circumstantial evidence to "prove" that the
Bond villains of the day (Libya) were the culprits.
John Ashton's book lays the evidence for all to see of how everything can
JCDavis JCDavis 12 Sep 2014 07:44
Herbert E. Meyer, Special Assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence under the Reagan
administration--
"If Putin is too stubborn to acknowledge that his career is over, and the only way to get
him out of the Kremlin is feet-first, with a bullet hole in the back of his head - that would
also be okay with us."
krislej Daniel Brown 12 Sep 2014 07:35
You're clearly someone who doesn't have a clue:
SU-25's carry the R-60 air to air missile with a range of 5 miles, they also have a 30mm auto-cannon.
The wreckage of MH17 is strewn with what are more than likely 30mm shell holes, perfectly rounded
and highly unlikely to be fragmentation from a rocket.
SU-25's can also climb to the height of MH17 and stay there for a short period of time before
having to descend.
Martin Adams 12 Sep 2014 07:33
The Lockerbie investigation was subverted for political reasons and the enemy of convenience
was then Libya. Abdelbasset al Megrahi who served 8 years in prison had nothing to do with Lockerbie
and they know it.
GoodmansParadox 12 Sep 2014 07:23
...he drew comparisons with the investigation into the Lockerbie bombing that took years
to identify suspects.
An interesting analogy, considering the suspects identified were fabricated in order to frame
Libya. Considering the case against the two Libyan suspects required they work together, it was
even more notable that only one of them was convicted. So a fabricated prosecution was delivered
a perverse verdict, yet the media still lapped it up and ran with the lie.
Funny how, with the toppling of Gaddafi, we were supposed to be provided with the evidence of
Libyan involvement. Three years and counting...
And now, the same cheerleaders for blaming Gaddafi are blaming Putin. Plus ca change.
kaptenemo 12 Sep 2014 07:20
Could investigators and journalists please also consider the possibility that the Kiev troops
did it? Right now, they should be investigating all leads, not only those pointing to the Eastern
Ukrainians. After all, the Ukrainian military did shoot down a commercial plane in 2001, so another
mistake cannot be excluded out of hand.
fintan -> DrHandley 12 Sep 2014 07:18
The Dutch are under orders to ensure that all the data and any media release places blame
of the Rebels
The Dutch "under orders"? From whom? Have some respect for a democratic, sovereign state that
has lost nearly 200 of its citizens to a murderous attack by vicious terrorists and, I have no
doubt, very much wants to find the truth about how and why it happened.
Standupwoman 12 Sep 2014 07:14
What's possibly most shocking about this is the reiteration of discredited information - the
supposed 'confession' of a rebel (taken massively out of context and heavily denied by the speaker)
and the ludicrous fake audio of the rebel conversation which turned out to have been uploaded
the day before the crash, then taken down again for editing.
I wouldn't be surprised by this promulgation of lies if I found it on social media, but this
is the Associated Press and I'm reading this in a once respected British newspaper. How in the
name of any kind of decency did we come to sink as low as this?
DrHandley 12 Sep 2014 07:12
The Dutch are under orders to ensure that all the data and any media release places blame of
the Rebels. We may talk about conspiracy theories - but in this case it smells like a cover up.
The explosive residue left of the surface of the aircraft would surely indicate the type of weapon
used as most explosives have a set 'signature'.
Standupwoman 12 Sep 2014 07:06
There's no surprise in the fact the solution 'getting most attention' is the one most likely
to discredit the rebels. I'd be more interested to know if they were giving any attention to anything
else.
"... The Spanish ATC guy's posts were real, but he said the trailing fighters left
shortly before MH17 vanished. Presumably they'd been told to get clear. ..."
"... So… the official Ukrainian ministry of the interior had released via their own web site a fake
video-audio product, pretending the downing was done by separatists and it was an after-the-event
conversation… but the Interior Ministry had produced the video file the day before the downing. ..."
"... The Spanish ATC guy's real-time tweets are consistent with this story. He said ordinary military
arrived at ATC first, but then Interior Ministry guys arrived and took over, removing all evidence
tapes. ..."
"... The Kiev government absolutely
and provably self-incriminated. ..."
"... All Western and Kiev claims (official, leaked and 'expert comments') to the contrary since,
have been orchestrated to bury and obfuscate that key evidence. ..."
"... MH17 was downed by a BUK fired by Kiev government forces, intending to down MH17 and claim
the Russians were responsible. US fingers in this scheme can be seen in the selection of an Air
Malaysia plane. ..."
"... Other points: – right after the event, Russian sources reported their
military signals intelligence in the E-Ukraine conflict area had detected a BUK systems targeting
radar activation at the time of the downing. That would be rather unlikely to admit, if they fired
it. ..."
"... Many other points all indicate Ukie government responsibility for this war crime. And the nature
of the Western 'investigation' also shouts of high level awareness of Western guilt. ..."
"... and what about the testimony of a Ukrainian army soldier that he'd seen a pilot return on
the day and time of the downing of MH17, confirming that the boeing had been shot by a Ukrainian
fighter plane? ..."
"... the fact that russia is now conceding that the MH17 was hit by a BUK missile completely changes
the equation for me. we've either been lied to with the expert opinion and the eye witness account,
or the BUK story is a fake. ..."
"... Please note that this Almaz-Antey MH17 field Experiment was done to support their commercial
interests in a court battle to recover damages for reputation and sanctions. It does not necessarily
reflect Russian government position (although it could hardly counter it either). ..."
"... It is a well timed PR 'Buk' at the corrupt and cynical 15-month Dutch insult to their own MH17
dead citizens and the wider global traveling public. ..."
"... I suspect a lot is calibrated end with the fall of Ukraine's nazi Poreshenko regime. One long
cold winter (on a month-by-month pre-payment plan) coming up! ..."
"... Who is conceding? All I have heard in the Almaz-Antey press conference was based on an "if",
without any definite "it was". So, if it was a BUK, then it was an old one, out of use in the
Russian army already 2011. If it was a BUK, it started in the region of Zaroshenskoje, not near
Snezhnoje. ..."
"We all know" – Speak for yourself. As soon as I saw the high-res image of that cockpit side panel,
I knew it had been a missile. There's clear results of a shock wave loaded with fine (down to
dust size) particles. Also those holes were not bullet holes, and they all came from the left
side of the plane. Metal edges bent outwards are due to the shockwave gases arriving just after
the larger penetrators, forcing between the skin layers, and blowing the outer layer outwards
around holes.
The Spanish ATC guy's posts were real, but he said the trailing fighters left
shortly before MH17 vanished. Presumably they'd been told to get clear.
All the "fighter planes shot up and/or fired an air to air missile at it" rubbish has been
disinformation, designed to bury that one damning and war-crimes trial worthy proof the Kiev Junta
(and US puppetmasters) preplanned the event. That was the video released on the Kiev Ministry
of Interior's official web site right after MH17's downing. The video was the 2nd released from
the same source, in a common style. It purported to be an intercepted communication between separatists
and a Russian general, in which they discussed having downed the plane with a missile fired by
separatists.
Analysis of the video's audio (the alleged 'conversation') revealed it was an collage edited
together using short word sequences. A fake. But also a massive mistake – it was reported that
analysis also found the video still contained timestamps from the editing process. It had been
constructed the DAY BEFORE the downing.
So… the official Ukrainian ministry of the interior had released via their own web site a fake
video-audio product, pretending the downing was done by separatists and it was an after-the-event
conversation… but the Interior Ministry had produced the video file the day before the downing.
Proof of prior knowledge of an 'accident' (or act supposedly by someone else) is proof of planning
it.
The Spanish ATC guy's real-time tweets are consistent with this story. He said ordinary military
arrived at ATC first, but then Interior Ministry guys arrived and took over, removing all evidence
tapes.
This is real, but it has been flushed down the memory hole. The Kiev government absolutely
and provably self-incriminated. And by extension, their masters in the US government were certainly
involved in planning too.
All Western and Kiev claims (official, leaked and 'expert comments') to the contrary since,
have been orchestrated to bury and obfuscate that key evidence.
MH17 was downed by a BUK fired by Kiev government forces, intending to down MH17 and claim
the Russians were responsible. US fingers in this scheme can be seen in the selection of an Air
Malaysia plane. More payback to Malaysia for their Trial of Israel for war crimes, and also trying
to ship that stolen US military drone control system to China, on MH370.
TerraHertz
eimar, October 15, 2015
@Terrahertz
Of course there is no unanimity about how MH-17 was brought down.
But 'none' is not just speaking for him/herself.
Check out this RT doc at 12.40: a local witness to a jet directly approaching the plane from
below, followed by a blue flash:
This does not exclude the BUK hypothesis. The pilot may have been instructed to obscure the
real cause, or told to deliver a payload too. Or simply act as a lure to divert the plane into
the missile path.
Or it was a coincidental presence.
But a Ukrainian fighter jet was on the scene.
TerraHertz, October 15, 2015
@eimar That's an interesting documentary, however you should exercise a little more discernment.
These witnesses are not credible, or are speaking of unrelated events. MH17 was flying at 33,000
feet. At that height an airliner is little more than a dot, and a fighter plane may not be visible
at all. No chance of telling which one is 'below' the other if they are near each other. How about
that guy who says he "ran outside to see" then claims he saw the entire sequence? Yeah, so what
made him run outside? As for the lack of sightings of a BUK smoke trail, I'd put that down to
the rainy, cloudy weather. And what was the cloud height anyway? Lower than 33K feet seems likely.
Also the site the Russians claim the missile was launched from is unpopulated fields. Could easily
be no witnesses, especially since the Ukraine military would want to make sure no one saw them
(or lived to speak of it.)
Other points: – right after the event, Russian sources reported their
military signals intelligence in the E-Ukraine conflict area had detected a BUK systems targeting
radar activation at the time of the downing. That would be rather unlikely to admit, if they fired
it.
Plus, MH17 flight path would have put it over Russian territory in a few more minutes, and
Russian ATC expected it. Why on earth shoot it down over Ukraine, if they wanted it down? From
the Russian side there's no conceivable practical motive. The Separatists would have no motive
either, since at that altitude MH17 couldn't possibly be mistaken for a Ukie military flight.
Many other points all indicate Ukie government responsibility for this war crime. And the nature
of the Western 'investigation' also shouts of high level awareness of Western guilt.
What a fantastic summary. Chapeau to Russia. The level of expertise and competence of the Russian
team is incredible. And this video is so well made…
I knew from the beginning that the UkroNazi were behind this false flag. The purpose was to accuse
Russia and support the sanctions. In fact, some of the "evidence" was made-up prior to the "accident".
I also believe that the US was part of it. They may plead "Plausible deniability" but their game
is well known and for one I am not fooled. If it look like a duck…
If the US wants to fight the Russians, I have bad news for the psychopaths.
mbotta on October 15, 2015 · at 4:32 am UTC
guys, so what happened to the expert opinion that the way the boeing was damaged
1) could in no way be done by a BUK missile, and
2) indicated that it had been shot at by a fighter plane?
and what about the testimony of a Ukrainian army soldier that he'd seen a pilot return on
the day and time of the downing of MH17, confirming that the boeing had been shot by a Ukrainian
fighter plane?
the fact that russia is now conceding that the MH17 was hit by a BUK missile completely changes
the equation for me. we've either been lied to with the expert opinion and the eye witness account,
or the BUK story is a fake.
Anonymous on October 15, 2015 · at 9:29 am UTC
Re: "… the fact that russia is now conceding that the MH17 was hit by a BUK missile completely
changes the equation for me."
Please note that this Almaz-Antey MH17 field Experiment was done to support their commercial
interests in a court battle to recover damages for reputation and sanctions. It does not necessarily
reflect Russian government position (although it could hardly counter it either).
It is a well timed PR 'Buk' at the corrupt and cynical 15-month Dutch insult to their own MH17
dead citizens and the wider global traveling public.
Where the MH17 project goes from here is anyone's guess - but in the reputation and credibility
stakes Russian share value is rising and EU/Nato is dropping fast. What is clear, is, any 'win'
by the usual suspects will be slow and at a very high cost.
I suspect a lot is calibrated end with the fall of Ukraine's nazi Poreshenko regime. One long
cold winter (on a month-by-month pre-payment plan) coming up!
Max on October 15, 2015 · at 11:21 am UTC
Who is conceding? All I have heard in the Almaz-Antey press conference was based on an "if",
without any definite "it was". So, if it was a BUK, then it was an old one, out of use in the
Russian army already 2011. If it was a BUK, it started in the region of Zaroshenskoje, not near
Snezhnoje.
"... which are a mix of bow-tie shaped pieces and diamond shaped pieces, indicate
that it is an older type of BUK missile that their military has not used for a long time ..."
"... Russia has also claimed that the Ukraine military did possess the older type of BUK missile
that corresponds to the fragments found. ..."
"... here in Australia, the news coverage I saw (SBS channel) of the Dutch (JIT)
investigation last night was immediately followed with coverage of the Russian points noted above,
with the manufacturer of the BUK missiles refuting some of the JITs claims after apparently having
done some tests. It was fairly brief however I was surprised to see both sides get airtime. ..."
It is not just whether or not it was a BUK missile, it is also what type of BUK missile it was,
if it was in fact a BUK that brought the plane down. Russia's contention is that the shape of the
fragments found, which are a mix of bow-tie shaped pieces and diamond shaped pieces, indicate
that it is an older type of BUK missile that their military has not used for a long time. I'm
assuming the new type they use also has a distinctive fragmentation pattern, and I'm not sure how
long it has been since they have phased out use of the old type, or if that information has been
made available.
Russia has also claimed that the Ukraine military did possess the older type of BUK missile
that corresponds to the fragments found.
Interestingly, here in Australia, the news coverage I saw (SBS channel) of the Dutch (JIT)
investigation last night was immediately followed with coverage of the Russian points noted above,
with the manufacturer of the BUK missiles refuting some of the JIT's claims after apparently having
done some tests. It was fairly brief however I was surprised to see both sides get airtime.
I have also been hearing that it was reported that passengers may have remained conscious for
up to 90 seconds.
"... Why divert that MH-17 to that routes, while previous planes before MH-17, directed to
other southern routes? ..."
"... Where is the traffic conversations records between the ATC and the MH17? ..."
"... Where is the radar plot of the MH17? ..."
"... Where is the sworn testimonies from the ATC guy in charge of taking care the MH17? ..."
"... The Buk left some nice t-shaped holes in the test fusilage.
None of those were witnessed on MH-17 wreckage and the holes were primarily round. The missile
that hit was closer than the suspended Buk they were testing and was likely an air to air weapon.
You can see the burn marks on MH-17 wreckage... ..."
"... The news today was a joke. Ukraine ordered the plane to fly the course , altitude and speed.
And yet no transcripts from the Ukraine Aviation authority ? why ? ..."
"... and what happened to Carlos the air traffic controller who sent word about military interference
at ATC? ..."
Russian troops use this new BUK-M2 back in 2008. You can check this if you have the DU (depleted
uraniums) fragmented casing, and test them with isotopes methodes. Which for some reasons, the
dutch teams refused to do.
- - -
Again. Russian haters fails to mentioned this.
As of the questions of:
1. Why the ATC not closing the route?
2. Why divert that MH-17 to that routes, while previous planes before MH-17, directed to
other southern routes?
3. Where is the traffic conversations records between the ATC and the MH17?
4. Where is the radar plot of the MH17?
5. Where is the sworn testimonies from the ATC guy in charge of taking care the MH17?
There are alot of questions unanswered. And yet the dutch investigation still release the report.
The New York Times' clumsiness as to its pro-Israel/anti-Russian {and for that matter anti-constitutionalist
and anti-libertarian} propaganda is stunning.
They're either that stupid or that brazen - knowing that Americans are too stupid to parse
misleading rhetoric.
Of course, that's older Americans.
Had I time and inclination, before absurd TPP copyright laws prevent it {from what I gather}
a great web site would be unmoderated, space limited comments on ny times stories.
good questions. why the report? - So companies and citizens can claim financial damages. you
seem to be implying that the BUK-M1 could have been sold on the black market, or provided by clandestine
means. By who? To who? Those are questions that a lot of people hoped would be answered.
The Buk left some nice t-shaped holes in the test fusilage.
None of those were witnessed on MH-17 wreckage and the holes were primarily round. The missile
that hit was closer than the suspended Buk they were testing and was likely an air to air weapon.
You can see the burn marks on MH-17 wreckage...
The news today was a joke. Ukraine ordered the plane to fly the course , altitude and speed.
And yet no transcripts from the Ukraine Aviation authority ? why ?
German Head Prosecutor (ret.) Mrs. Wolff published
a new article in her series "MH17
Information War". She researches MH17 Bellingcat and
Correctiv research. Fascinating how she dissects the claims both
entities make! About Correctiv claim the US has appointed a launch site
north of Snizhne:
"Get into the corner and be ashamed of yourself, is my advice for this kind of journalism." ("In die Ecke stellen und schämen, ist mein Ratschlag für diese Art von Journalismus.")
About Bellingcat's claim Donetsk Buk picture is the real thing, expect more from her soon.
Eric van de Beek is professional journalist and 'useful idiot'. Check out his
excellent interview with corrupt journo Udo Ulfkotte talking about corrupt journalism.
"... Investigators estimated it took the center and rear parts of the airplane 60 to 90 seconds to
reach the ground after the blast. Other, lighter parts would have taken longer, the report
said. ..."
The warhead - launched 33,000 feet below in the Ukrainian countryside - exploded less than one
yard from the aircraft's cockpit, the Dutch report said.
A split-second later, hundreds of "high-energy" fragments pierced the fuselage and the shrapnel
instantly killed the two pilots and one crew member inside.
There was no mayday call or attempt to maneuver, the report noted. The cockpit voice recorder
stopped abruptly at the point of impact.
Image: Dutch Safety Board Issue Their Findings On The MH17 Air Disaster
The explosion also caused the cockpit to instantly separate from the rest of the aircraft.
After that "instantaneous separation," the rest of the plane continued to fly for more than five
miles before breaking into further pieces, according to the report.
The center part of the airliner traveled beyond the rear section and came to rest upside down
after hitting the ground. "Parts of the wreckage caught fire," the report added.
Investigators estimated it took the center and rear parts of the airplane 60 to 90 seconds to
reach the ground after the blast. "Other, lighter parts would have taken longer," the report
said.
The debris field was more than 20 square miles.
... ... ...
Investigators used paint to trace the missile
Ukraine and its Western allies have long alleged that pro-Russian rebels fighting in eastern
Ukraine brought down MH17 using a Russian-made missile system - a claim Moscow staunchly denies.
While Tuesday's report apportioned no blame, it was the first confirmation that the airliner was
shot down using the BUK missile launcher - a Russian-made system.
Investigators came to this conclusion by analyzing a number of minute details.
A 2.3-millisecond noise was recorded on the cockpit's voice recorders before the system stopped
working. By triangulating the signal, experts were able to show that it originated outside the
aircraft.
Their conclusion was also based on "bow-tie"-shaped fragments found inside the bodies of the
flight's crew members that were consistent with a 9N314M missile launched as part of the BUK
system.
The Dutch team that compiled the report also based this conclusion on "explosive residues and
paint" that were found on some of the fragments
The Dutch board's Tuesday announcement followed a report by Buk's Russian manufacturer,
Almaz-Antey, that contradicted the findings. The company said the damage patterns on MH17 did not
match those it found in its own blast tests, Reuters reported.
The article contains several interesting pictures... Omitted evidence supports version of false
flag operation against rebels. I remember one phone that shows that one shpnel fragment
travelling horizontally and scratching the right wing of the airliner. Dutch version makes existence
of such fragment impossible. It also does not tell us in how many passenger bodies shrapnel
wonds were found as this recreated dispersion pattern of the blast. If does mention that
pilots bodies contain shrapnel wounds.
Ukraine and Western countries contend the airliner was downed by a missile fired by
Russia-backed rebels or Russian forces, from rebel-controlled territory.
However, a Russian state-controlled missile-maker held a press conference today to coincide with
the report's release to say its own investigation contradicts conclusions from the Dutch probe.
Almaz-Antey says it conducted two experiments - in one of which a Buk missile was detonated near
the nose of an airplane similar to a 777 - that contradict that conclusion.
The experimental aircraft's remains showed a much different submunitions damage pattern than seen
on the remnants of MH17, the company said in a statement.
The experiments also refute what it said was the Dutch version, that the missile was fired
from Snizhne, a village that was under rebel control. An Associated Press reporter saw a Buk
missile system in that vicinity on the same day.
'We have proven with our experiments that the theory about the missile flying from Snizhne is
false,' Almaz-Antey's director general Yan Novikov told a news conference at a sprawling
high-tech convention center in Moscow.
Almaz-Antey in June had said that a preliminary investigation suggested that the plane was downed
by a model of BUK that is no longer in service with the Russian military but that was part of the
Ukrainian military arsenal.
Information from the first experiment, in which a missile was fired at aluminum sheets
mimicking an airliner's fuselage, was presented to the Dutch investigators, but was not taken
into account, Almaz-Antey chief Novikov said.
Novikov said evidence shows that if the plane was hit by a Buk, it was fired from the village
of Zaroshenske, which Russia says was under Ukrainian government control at the time.
A U.S. official told The Associated Press that the draft report said the plane was destroyed by a
Buk surface-to-air missile fired from the village of Snizhne.
The final report into the causes of the MH17 crash in Ukraine over a year ago is ready and is expected
to be revealed within hours. Russia claims some that findings have not been included in the Dutch
report while remaining questions hang heavy in the air.
The much anticipated report investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was
downed in Ukraine on July 17, 2014, killing nearly 300 people on board, is planned to be released
by the Dutch Safety Board (DBS), which led the probe, on Tuesday. The DBS investigation is aimed
at providing technical details of the crash, while another investigation carried out by the Joint
Investigation Team (JIT)will determine who was responsible for the incident. The latter report is
to be issued by the end of this year.
The DBS issued a preliminary report in September 2014 which only confirmed that the passenger
plane crashed due to external damage. Amid the probe there has been extensive media speculation regarding
the causes of the incident.
Days ahead of the DBS official report, a letter addressed to the head of the UN aviation agency
about the investigation was leaked to the media. It was published by a Malaysian newspaper on Sunday.
The letter was written by the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency's Chief, Oleg Storchevoy, who
was acquainted with the results of the investigation, to Olumuyiwa Benard Aliu, the head of the International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). Storchevoy asked the UN aviation body to intervene in the DBS
investigation.
Ahead of the DBS report, RT examines some of the controversial points which are expected to be
answered by the probe.
Why did the DBS fail to use the BUK manufacturer's declassified data in the probe?
It has been widely speculated that a BUK anti-aircraft missile was fired at the plane. Dutch investigators
previously told RT that they could not confirm reports that a BUK missile had been used.
In order to aid the investigation Almaz-Antey, the designer and producer of BUK missile systems,
carried out two meetings with the DBS in which it declassified the specifications of its rockets
– the 9M38 and 9M38M1 surface-to-air missile systems – Storchevoy said, in the letter addressed to
the UN.
The declassified information included technical specifications, flight and ballistics characteristics,
launch parameters, algorithms governing the detonator and characteristics of the warhead, he said.
The arms maker also provided the results of a simulated test of a BUK missile hitting a Boeing
and described the damage, he added.
He stated that in the final Dutch report all these calculations were ignored. He added that the
report had discrepancies with regards to the metallurgical properties of the missile and size of
the warhead.
Why did the probe ignore Russian findings?
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Monday that the facts delivered by the Russian side were
ignored "for unclear reasons."
In his letter, Storchevoy added that the DSB ignored "comprehensive information" provided by the
Russian side which related to the downing of the Boeing 777.
Days after the catastrophe, the Russian military
provided
monitoring data of a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day
of the downing.Russian military had also posed a set of questions to Kiev regarding the jet which
have not been answered.
Why did the investigation focus on the BUK missile version?
The investigation was conducted in an illogical order, Storchevoy said, explaining that the DBS
started with an assumed hypothesis, and worked backwards to demonstrate that the evidence met the
criteria necessary to prove their preconceived conclusions.
This violates the principle of "sequence of conclusions," one of the most fundamental
rules when conducting probes into air crashes, he said explaining that firstly, the damage to the
airplane should have been examined and then, based on this analysis, conclusions as to its cause
and source should have been drawn.
Why did DBS fail to collect all debris in over a year after the crash?
An RT Documantary film crew traveled to the site of the MH17 downing, discovering that debris
from the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was still covering the crash site in eastern Ukraine a year
after the catastrophe. The RTD crew collected parts of the plane's exterior which they spotted, bringing
them to the town administration of nearby Petropavlivka.
After the film "MH17: A year without truth" was released in July, the DBS contacted RT
asking for help gathering the pieces.
"With great interest we watched your documentary, 'MH17: A year without truth,'" Dutch
Safety Board spokesperson Sara Vernooij wrote to RT. "In this film, RT shows parts of the cockpit
roof which were found near Petropavlivka. We would like to gather those pieces and bring them over
to the Netherlands so the Dutch Safety Board can use them for the investigation and the reconstruction."
If those two statement "missile exploded 20 meters above portside area of engine" and "explosion
was on portside not starboard side of plane, as Dutch probe claims" are true, then it looks like Dutch
report is more of the result of political pressure ( justification of Russian sanctions) then an independent
investigation.
"Flight MH17 crashed as a result of the detonation of a warhead outside the airplane above the
left-hand side of the cockpit," said Tjibbe Joustra, chairman of the Dutch Safety Board, using a
common reference to the flight number. The explosion
tore off the forward part of the plane, which
broke up in the air. The crash killed all 298 people aboard; the investigation found that many
died instantly, while others quickly lost consciousness. "It is likely that the occupants were barely
able to comprehend their situation," the board found.
... ... ...
The report is unlikely to produce consensus. Based on the impact pattern, the impact angle
and other data, the Dutch board concluded that the missile originated in an area of about 320 square
kilometers (about 123 square miles) in eastern Ukraine. But Russian experts say the area must
be smaller, and Ukrainian experts say it was smaller still.
The team of investigators was led by the Netherlands but included members from four other countries
heavily affected by the crash: Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine.
... ... ...
From the outset, the Russian government has tried to offer alternative versions of what caused
the plane to break up over eastern Ukraine.
Initially, the Defense Ministry presented what generals said was radar data indicating that
a Ukrainian fighter jet had flown nearby, possibly shooting down the Malaysia Airlines flight. This
year, officials with Almaz-Antey, the state corporation that manufactures the Buk antiaircraft missiles,
held a news conference in Moscow to say that they believed one of their missiles had shot down the
plane, but that an analysis of the angle of impact showed it must have been fired from territory
controlled by the Ukrainian Army.
Then, this month, after a Ukrainian security official had suggested in an interview with the Dutch
news media that shrapnel removed from the bodies of the victims proved a Buk was to blame,
Tass, the Russian state news agency, quoted an independent expert objecting that it was too
early to conclude such a missile brought down the plane.
Tass quoted the expert, Ivan P. Konovalov, the director of a Moscow research center, the Center
for Strategic Trends, as saying that if the Dutch Safety Board indeed "reaches a firm conclusion
that the Boeing was struck by a Buk antiaircraft rocket, then it should be taken into consideration
that at that time only the armed services of Ukraine had these complexes and the People's Republics
of Donbas had no such complex systems then or now." He was referring to pro-Russian separatist governments
set up in the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine.
In Moscow, officials at Almaz-Antey staged a dueling presentation on Tuesday with a dazzling element:
the company blew up a civilian airline fuselage with one of its missiles, and showed the blast on
video.
The experiment that shredded the cockpit section of a decommissioned Il-86 airliner, company officials
said, indicated the Ukrainian military fired the missile that brought down the Boeing, without elaborating
on why.
In the sky over Ukraine, the Russian officials said, the shrapnel struck the plane from an angle
indicating the missile was launched from Ukrainian-held territory. Also, they said, Buk missiles
in the Russian arsenal explode in a cloud of shrapnel that has jagged edges, described as having
a "double-T" form. These, they said, leave a characteristic "butterfly"-shaped hole in airplane fuselages.
The Russians insisted that no such holes were found in the wreckage; the Dutch report suggests otherwise.
In any case, Yan V. Novikov, the director of Almaz-Antey, said the Ukrainian government bore
responsibility for allowing the flight over a war zone. "I cannot say they are guilty, or not guilty,
but the obligations of the country where a military conflict is underway is to inform aviation companies,
or close its airspace," he said.
It was BUK -- Video contains important finding that fragment of missile paint and elements from the
missile warhead in pilot bodies. It is mainly non technical
watch-v=KDiLEyT9spI and does not
cover conflicting evidence. So at last we know that there was a BUK missile the downs the airliner. I
doubt that Dutch investigators make a mistake on this aspect of cause of the tragedy (that does not
explains accurate round holes is the part of cockpit wreckage though). Still the set of old
questions remains. But it we
assume this was BUK, why nobody saw the dense smoke trail of the rocket in daylight and perfect
weather. The dense smoke trail that should still be visible at the moment when the plane was hit and
when several thousand eyes were watching the area in notably absent.
A Buk surface-to-air missile downed flight MH17, Dutch investigators have said as they unveiled a
reconstruction of the plane that showed huge shrapnel damage to the cockpit and front section.
Tjibbe Joustra, the chairman of the Dutch safety board, said the Malaysia Airlines plane was hit
by a 9N314M warhead on 17 July 2014, as it flew at 33,000ft (10,000 metres) above eastern
Ukraine. The warhead was fitted to a "9M28 missile" fired from a Russian-built Buk missile system,
he confirmed.
Speaking in front of the reconstructed plane – pieced together from parts of recovered debris,
fitted around a metal skeleton – Joustra said all other scenarios to explain the disaster, which
killed all 298 people on board, had been ruled out.
An animated video was shown to journalists at the Gilze-Rijen airbase in the
Netherlands, where the plane was part reassembled over three months. It showed the Buk missile
exploding on the left-hand side of the cockpit. Thousands of metal objects were ejected, with hundreds
then penetrating the plane with tremendous force, Joustra said.
The impact and ensuing pressure drop killed the three pilots instantly, he said. On-board microphones
captured the moment of impact – "a sound ping". This allowed investigators to determine the devastating
blast occurred on the upper-left hand side of the cockpit.
The damage was starkly visible. The front section of the Boeing 777 below the pilot's port window
was perforated with large shrapnel holes. Other parts were relatively unscathed. Five windows in
the business class section were visible, together with a door where the passengers entered. The pilot's
seats had been remounted in the cockpit – a haunting sight.
The plane's nose was missing, together with much of its upper front half. The colours of Malaysia
Airlines – a red, blue stripe – were still visible. Exit holes left by shrapnel could be seen on
the other right side; exploding fragments had ripped through the fuselage.
According to Joustra, the passenger plane broke up mid-air. The cockpit and the floor of the business
class tore away almost instantly from the main body and crashed. The rest of the plane continued
flying for about five miles in an easterly direction, hitting the ground about a minute to a minuter
and a half later. Debris was scattered over 50 sq km.
In a briefing on Tuesday morning to relatives of the victims, which took place in The Hague, Joustra
said the passengers on board – two-thirds of whom were Dutch nationals – would have been unconscious
within seconds.
The board had previously made clear its findings would not deal with blame and liability; a criminal
investigation by the Dutch prosecutor's office is scheduled to conclude in early 2016.
Joustra said the Buk had been fired from a 320 sq km area of eastern Ukraine, the
scene of a conflict between pro-Russia separatists backed by Moscow and Ukrainian
government forces. He said "further forensic investigation" would be needed to determine
the exact launch site.
The Netherlands, Ukraine and Russia had all carried out their own simulations into the missile's
probable trajectory.
Russia was the only one of seven countries involved in the report's preparation that dissented
from its central conclusions, Joustra said, adding that Moscow believed "it was impossible to determine
the type of missile or warhead with any certainty".
It is widely assumed that Russia-backed separatists were responsible for bringing down MH17, but
the US has stopped short of blaming Moscow directly. The Kremlin has blamed Kiev – variously suggesting
that a Ukrainian military jet shot down the Boeing 777, or that a missile was launched from a government-held
area.
The Russian simulation includes areas under Ukrainian government control. The other simulations
suggest the Buk was fired from separatist areas. An
open source investigation by the website Bellingcat, published last week, tracks the Buk from
a Russian military base in Kursk. It was then smuggled across the Ukrainian border.
In Moscow, the makers of
Buk missile systems, Almaz-Antey, gave a press conference on Tuesday morning, apparently to distract
attention from the Dutch report.
The manufacturer said it had performed two experiments it says prove one of its missiles could
not have been launched from areas under pro-Russia separatist control.
The Dutch safety board report, published in English and Dutch, concedes that family members had
to wait "an unnecessarily long period of time" for formal confirmation that their loved ones were
dead. The Dutch authorities "lacked management and coordination", he said.
The victims came from nine countries, including Malaysia and Australia, and with 10 victims from
the UK.
Joustra also said there was a simple, "dispiriting" answer to the question: why was MH17 allowed
to fly above eastern Ukraine? It had not occurred to anybody that the airspace was unsafe for civilian
jets at cruising altitude, he said. This was despite 60 Ukrainian aircraft and helicopters had been
downed since the start of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in spring 2014.
About 160 civilian planes flew over the area on the day of the disaster. Three were in "close
proximity" when the Buk was fired, he said. Ukraine should have closed its airspace to civilian traffic,
he added.
"... At the same time Russias Defense Ministry made public satellite images of the area, taken
several days prior to the crash. The satellite pictures showed Ukrainian army positions on three
days before the crash, and a BUK missile launcher could be spotted there. But on the day of the
crash, it had moved somewhere else. The question is why – and where it had gone? ..."
"... In June 2015, Russian arms manufacturer Almaz-Antey presented the results of its own probe
into the causes of the MH17 crash. Looking into the option of a surface-to-air missile downing
the Boing-777, experts stressed that it could only have been caused by one of the missiles from
an older modification of the BUK missile system, namely the Buk-M1 - the type of the weapon the
Ukrainian army is equipped with. The Russian army uses modern and later BUK missile systems. ..."
"... "the Sukhoi jet brought down the civilian
plane and ours brought down the fighter jet." ..."
"... "They decided to do it this way, to look like we have brought down
the plane." ..."
"... a documentary crew making a film about the MH17 catastrophe has
actually proven them wrong, staging an experiment and taking an Su-25 to a height of 11,880 meters
– with a pilot wearing an oxygen mask. ..."
The Dutch Safety Board delivered a preliminary report
about a year ago, concluding that flight MH17 broke up in mid-air and came down after being hit
by a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the plane from the outside and ruptured
the fuselage. The report did not mention where those high-energy objects came from.
The first theory maintains that the MH17 flight was downed by a surface-to-air anti-aircraft
missile. It is considered by many as the most likely theory and one that's been widely cited in
the media. The only question is who did it.
The West and Ukraine claim the rebels shot the plane with a Russian BUK missile. In the framework
of this theory, a YouTube video of a BUK weapons system with one rocket missing being transported
somewhere in Ukraine just hours after the crash was presented as a smoking gun, claiming that
the missile system was sneakily cleared out of Ukraine into Russia.
But some local bloggers identified the location as the Ukrainian town of Krasnoarmeysk, which
was under control of the Kiev forces at the time.
The fact that the video emerged online suspiciously quickly, was followed by lots of so-called
social media evidence, and is almost impossible to authenticate, only fueled suspicions.
Theory #2: 'Ukrainian BUK missile'
At the same time Russia's Defense Ministry made public satellite images of the area, taken
several days prior to the crash. The satellite pictures showed Ukrainian army positions on three
days before the crash, and a BUK missile launcher could be spotted there. But on the day of the
crash, it had moved somewhere else. The question is why – and where it had gone?
In June 2015, Russian arms manufacturer Almaz-Antey presented the results of its own probe
into the causes of the MH17 crash. Looking into the option of a surface-to-air missile downing
the Boing-777, experts stressed that it could only have been caused by one of the missiles from
an older modification of the BUK missile system, namely the Buk-M1 - the type of the weapon the
Ukrainian army is equipped with. The Russian army uses modern and later BUK missile systems.
Theory #3: 'Air-to-Air Missile'
Another theory is that Flight MH17 may have been shot down from the air.
Russia's Investigative Committee (IC) has been conducting its own investigation into the crash.
On June 3, the Committee identified the key witness to the MH17 crash as Evgeny Agapov, an aviation
armaments mechanic in the Ukrainian Air Force. Agapov testified that on July 17, 2014 a Ukrainian
Sukhoi SU-25 jet aircraft piloted by Captain Voloshin "set out for a military task" and
returned without ammunition. Agapov implied that an air-to-air missile was missing and claimed
he overheard Voloshin say to his colleagues that some plane was "in the wrong place at the
wrong time."
Also, in a video shot by Ukraine's anti-government militia when they arrived at the crash site
immediately after the catastrophe and released by an Australian broadcaster almost a year after
the tragedy, one important part was largely ignored.
The video, shown by News Corp Australia, is a short, 5-minute clip made from an original video
17 minutes long, but the channel published online a full transcript of the original version.
The transcript cited the rebel commander as saying "the Sukhoi jet brought down the civilian
plane and ours brought down the fighter jet."
Later, the same person says once again that there were two planes shot down, and another voice
in the background says, "They decided to do it this way, to look like we have brought down
the plane."
Those who oppose the theory say the Sukhoi Su-25 close support fighter jet spotted in the skies
at the time of the incident cannot reach a height of 10,000 meters, where the Malaysian airliner
was at cruising altitude. But a documentary crew making a film about the MH17 catastrophe has
actually proven them wrong, staging an experiment and taking an Su-25 to a height of 11,880 meters
– with a pilot wearing an oxygen mask.
The report coming out Tuesday will be technical in nature. Its goal is to specify how the plane
was brought down, not to place blame on any side. This is the responsibility of the criminal probe,
which is still ongoing.
Insufficient evidence
for prosecution to declare shooting of MH17 a terrorist act..
Notable quotes:
"... The refusal of the Australian officials to make the statutory declaration that they have the
evidence under Australian law to declare a terrorist act suggests they don't have the evidence at
all. Until now, none has noticed the convergence of the Australian autopsy evidence in the
Coroners Court in Melbourne, and the revelation in the Brisbane court that the government is
refusing to declare a terrorist act. ..."
"... Dutch media report Australian lawyers for kin of victims have filed a complaint with
the ICC in the Hague seeking to indict several Dutch government ministers as well as
Eurocontrol and others for 'gross negligence'. ..."
"... If I'm right, the Russians have the evidence that proves whodunnit. They're just waiting until
the Dutch put out their report. Shot from the sky by military (whose is a guess) planes, not
BUK missiles. If they had one atom from a BUK, we'd know about it. ..."
"... It now appears that the likelihood 'on balance' is that it was the Ukrainian government
that shot down the plane. Establishing the case on a balance of probabilities would be good
enough in a civil jurisdiction. ..."
"... Obviously we westerners cannot tolerate that result otherwise everything we have said
about the accident will be thought to be intentionally misleading. It would be far far better
to obfuscate the investigative results and say it was inconclusive. Then our newspapers can
say those crafty Russians got away with it. ..."
"... Fingers crossed. Its not impossible that the truth will out. ..."
Fifteen weeks later, by the time Abbott spoke in November, he had been briefed on the evidence
gathered by Australian pathologists and the Victorian State Coroner from the bodies of MH17
victims. No evidence of shrapnel from a Buk missile warhead had been found. For that story,
read on.
... ... ...
The refusal of the Australian officials to make the statutory declaration that they have the
evidence under Australian law to declare a terrorist act suggests they don't have the evidence at
all. Until now, none has noticed the convergence of the Australian autopsy evidence in the
Coroners Court in Melbourne, and the revelation in the Brisbane court that the government is
refusing to declare a terrorist act.
... ... ...
For the Dutch Government's compilation of its official statements on the MH17 crash, open
this file. According to van der Goen, none of the investigating countries has legitimate
authority to prosecute, "if only because the Netherlands and the other countries mentioned are
possible suspects themselves - and they refuse to see this. So the case will be endlessly
shelved. Eventually, it will be adopted at a parliamentary inquiry that mistakes were made, but
then noone will still be awake. Excellent solution."
Ilargi, October 8, 2015 at 1:53 am
Dutch media report Australian lawyers for kin of victims have filed a complaint with
the ICC in the Hague seeking to indict several Dutch government ministers as well as
Eurocontrol and others for 'gross negligence'.
Chris Williams, October 8, 2015 at 2:35 am
I don't know how our clever governments (US, Australia, Netherlands, UK etc) are going to
get out of this one. Perhaps, as JH suggests, they will continue to defer and prevaricate,
keeping their 'evidence'… until know one cares.
If I'm right, the Russians have the evidence that proves whodunnit. They're just waiting until
the Dutch put out their report. Shot from the sky by military (whose is a guess) planes, not
BUK missiles. If they had one atom from a BUK, we'd know about it.
JTMcPhee, October 8, 2015 at 9:09 pm
For a different and more complete view, one might read here:
Not some "itchy radar operator," it would seem. But the Narrative must be protected…
low_integer, October 9, 2015 at 6:22 am
So the damage to the body would come from the exploding engine. It's so big, spinning
so fast, that the energy released is far, far, greater than the warheads. !!!
So, you can't tell either way based on the plane's body. You'd have to have
microscopic analysis of the engine components - which would be very challenging and take
just about forever.
Obfuscation. The parts in a passenger aircraft's jet engine that are moving, the turbine
blades, are made of nickel-based superalloys and I believe they are single 'grain' components,
which means they have consistent strength throughout and would be very unlikely to fracture.
Also, damage to the fuselage of a passenger jet from turbine blades would be easily
identifiable due to their shape and position as the energy of the turbine blades would be
dispersed at right angles to the direction of thrust. Lastly, the casing around these blades
would, at the very least, absorb a significant amount of this energy.
Are you the guy who replied to one of my posts that Cthulu caused 9/11?
RBHoughton, October 8, 2015 at 9:17 pm
It now appears that the likelihood 'on balance' is that it was the Ukrainian government
that shot down the plane. Establishing the case on a balance of probabilities would be good
enough in a civil jurisdiction.
Obviously we westerners cannot tolerate that result otherwise everything we have said
about the accident will be thought to be intentionally misleading. It would be far far better
to obfuscate the investigative results and say it was inconclusive. Then our newspapers can
say those crafty Russians got away with it.
If not, eastern Ukraine and Russia will score a huge win and we will have even more egg on our
faces than usual. Its bad enough that fewer people believe us but its far worse that they
begin to prefer Putin's version.
The hopeful thing here is the lawyers. Older readers will recall people used to study law
because they respected the concept of a law-based society. It was not just about the money.
Some of these vocational lawyers can still be found and it is my hope that they get fully
involved in this case. Fingers crossed. Its not impossible that the truth will out.
Thanks again Naked Capitalism for reporting important news that is neglected by others.
ARTEMIVSK, Ukraine - How do you prove you didn't blow up a plane? In Russia, you blow up
a plane.
A Russian missile manufacturer said Friday that it had exploded a missile beneath a
decommissioned Boeing airliner similar to that of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, shot out of the
sky over eastern Ukraine last year, proving the passenger jet was not downed by one of its
missiles.
"The company will present the results of a real-time simulation of a Buk missile hitting a
passenger jet which we hope will help us understand what exactly caused the July 17, 2014 crash
of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukraine's Donetsk region," Almaz-Antey said in a
statement.
The company did not say when the experiment took place or how it was conducted, and it did not
immediately reply to Mashable's request for comment. Its report will be released on Tuesday, Oct.
13, the same day a joint international investigation led by the Dutch Safety Board will release
its full report into the causes of the downing.
At a press conference in Moscow in June, Almaz-Antey said it was prepared to carry out
such an experiment to prove MH17 was downed by an older version of their missile that isn't in
service with the Russian military, but is in Ukraine's arsenal.
Company officials at the time did not say whether the aircraft would be in flight during the
experiment.
MH17 was downed over the village of Hrabovo, eastern Ukraine while en route from Amsterdam to
Kuala Lumpa on July 17, 2014. All 298 passengers and crew on board the jetliner were killed and
their remains scattered over the battlefields in war-torn Donetsk region.
Western governments and Kiev have accused Russian-backed separatists of shooting down the
passenger jet, mistaking it for a Ukrainian military aircraft, with a Buk SA-11 missile provided
by Moscow. Their accusations are supported by preliminary evidence gathered by open source
sleuths Bellingcat, as well as investigators and Mashable's own investigation.
On Wednesday, Vasyl Vovk, a senior officer of the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) who has been
involved in the investigation into the downing, told Dutch news site NOS that the fragments found
in the aircraft wreckage and in victims' bodies matched pieces from two Buk missiles that
investigators examined for comparison.
The Kremlin and separatist leaders have blamed Kiev for the disaster, insisting it was downed
either by a Ukrainian Buk missile or a government jet fighter.
While the Dutch report due next week will shine a light on what caused the plane to crash and
burn, it will not lay blame.
A separate criminal investigation headed by Dutch detectives and involving investigators from
Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine is still pending.
Attempts by the United Nations Security Council to create a tribunal to prosecute those
responsible for the crime was vetoed by Russia, a permanent member of the council, in July.
Moscow has called the move "premature" and decried the Dutch-led investigation as biased.
citizens. We support the ongoing trial in the Netherlands to deliver justice for those who died & for their loved ones, and call on Russia to cooperate fully
Serbian Patriot @PatriotSerbian · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Fundamental flaws remain in the JIT's final verdict. Feel free to debate these critical points Steve: ( https:// 21stcenturywire.com/2019/06/23/des pite-its-official-verdict-fundamental-flaws-remain-in-dutch-jit-mh17-investigation/ )
Despite its 'Official' Verdict, Fundamental Flaws Remain in Dutch JIT MH17 Investigation 21WIRE | After an elaborate five year, NATO member state-led process, not everyone is convinced by the JIT's politicized conclusion. 21stcenturywire.com taseenb @taseenb · 19h Replying to @BBCSteveR She's amazing and she's right. I would have called you a mercenary though, which is more accurate orbi @kwo_vadis · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Have you talked to the Skripals? Deborah Wylde @flamingyam · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Why did you ignore her questions? Instead, avoiding them by throwing more accusations at her. Mark Curtis @markcurtis30 · Mar 9 I've written a lot on the media over the years but the current state of UK press reporting on UK foreign policy is shocking. There is no news system, the public is being misinformed, the press (from Tory to "liberal") acts largely as an appendage of the state. Please see thread. https:// twitter.com/declassifiedUK Arthur Tewungwa @ATewungwa · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Love the way Mahathir Mohammed the PM of the country's whose plane has been shot down is relegated to a spectator. The BBC shamelessly tie his rejection of the allegation thrown at Russia with the sale of Palm oil, further portraying Malaysia as an economic basket case. Really
Shpakova ☭@NovaShpakova
It looks like you may be having problems playing this video. If so, please try restarting your browser. Close MH17 crash test simulation Posted by RT Play 114,808 Views
MH17 crash test simulation Posted by RT Play 114,808 Views app-facebook Video Unavailable Sorry, this video could not be played. Learn More 2. Missile exploded on left side "The sub-munitions primarily damaged the left side of the MH17 Boeing, primarily its cockpit, left wing, left engine, and the left side of the tail, " the company said.
File photo. Dutch
experts at the crash site of flight MH17 in 2014. © Aleksey Kudenko / Sputnik The serial
numbers found on debris of the Buk missile which downed Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over
eastern Ukraine show it was produced in 1986, the Russian military said. The projectile was
owned by Ukraine, they added. There are two serial numbers found on fragments of the missile,
which shot down the passenger airliner in June 2014 according to an international team of
investigators led by the Netherlands. The numbers were marked on the engine and the nozzle of
the missile.
Serial number on
engine and nozzle of the missile.
MIssilye shipment
records found in Russia.
Analysis of
Bellingcat footage by Russian experts.
Information on a
Col. Ruslan Grinchak shown by the Russian military.
Moscow can't accept
'unfounded conclusions' on MH17 downing – Russia's UN envoy
Image of Buk-M1 launcher in the vicinity of the MH17 crash
