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Aug 15, 2014 The Guardian
Ukraine president claims Russian vehicles that crossed border have been destroyed
Reuben Black -> deniskoua , 16 August 2014 6:24amI read Ukrainian news, as well as Russian and English language news and I have a fairly well developed bullshit detector. Sources? BBC, Guardian, CNN, WSJ, NYT, Unian, Vesti.ua, gordonua, Vesti,ru, RIA, Slon, the list goes on. I spend far too much of my own time reading in any attempt to find out what's going on. Is it possible in truth? Not entirely, but one has to try. The only way to really find out would be to spend a considerable amount of time in the Donbass and talk to all sides, which to be honest would be a risky prospect.
The biggest thing that stands out amongst all the sources is the tone of the argument they present.
The worst thing that a journalist can do is go somewhere hoping or even expecting to find something specific. If you reach a specific conclusion before you've even lifted yourself up from your chair then there's no point going anywhere - the energy is wasted.
Why? Because you end up with reporting like this very article.
It's then that you get nitpicking and poking around in every little corner in the hope that you create the right innuendo. There's so much assumption, which is unhealthy because assumption is often proved to be incorrect.
The problem with this is that good proper journalism isn't built on innuendo, it's rather more like a scientific paper in which a host of facts are to be presented accompanied by logically drawn conclusions based on those facts. If you don't know the answer to something, you try to find it out, you don't simply make stuff up.
To highlight the plight of Ukrainian journalism in this environment, I'd like to remind you that Ukrainian Vesti had its offices ransacked a while back because the tone of its articles were not patriotic enough and it was considered not okay to present the other side of the story. After this wee event the articles came out toeing a much more official line and pretty much following these marvellous guidelines.
Russia stole Crimea? You make it sound like a toy car or a set of Lego. The forces that occupied Crimea were, for the most part, already there. You do realise that there were already Russian military bases in the Crimea? Russia was permitted to have up to 25,000 troops on the territory.
An arbitrary decision made in 1954 by Khrushchev sent a historical part of Russia into the territory of Ukraine. Then again he would never have imagined at the time that the USSR would fall apart. There has long been a history of discord between post soviet Ukraine and Crimea. All you need do is read up on the turmoil between the two entities. Most of the population of Crimea is Russian, around 60%. It's not really a great shock that they might lean more towards Russia then Ukraine, especially given the tumultuous history between Kiev and Crimea created largely by the meddling of the former in local politics even though it was supposed to be an autonomous republic.
I agree that he should have come straight out and said that it was Russian soldiers, but it doesn't change the fact that the Crimea was taken without firing a shot and the Donbass has been in a state of war for some months now.
Sending an armoured convoy across the border right under the nose of journalists would be simply moronic and would definitely credit the Russians with a little more intelligence than that.
ZigiSamblak -> Reuben Black, 16 August 2014 6:39am
You talk about the tone of the news being presented by the different sides? How about comparing the Russian media talk of "Ukrainian Nazi's" and covert CIA operations and what not with the reasonable reports in the Western media. That makes your whole argument sound pretty weak now, doesn't it?
Mij Swerdna -> Alex Weber, 16 August 2014 6:52am
Not exactly. It's more like a group think phenomenon. That's normal border patrol. Russia is also very concerned about mines in the path of the convoy so they might have done a bit of sight seeing. Unlike Ukraine and its western allies, Russia seems to be losing it's taste for deadly violence. Seeing what has been done to the civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk makes one realize that, yes, they would do something like that.
Nobul -> ZigiSamblak, 16 August 2014 7:06am
The Telegraph had just published a report last week interviewing the self declared nazis of the Azov battalion fighting for the Kiev junta, did you miss it?
Reuben Black -> ZigiSamblak, 16 August 2014 7:20am
It doesn't weaken my argument in the least, in fact. That rule applies to all sides. That's one particular aspect of the official Russian outlets that I find tiresome and overstated. The parts which I tend to take with a grain of salt and some groaning unless there's something concrete to convince me otherwise. Pravy Sektor this, Pravy Sektor that. Uh-huh.
It's quite obvious that there is to some extent a Nazi presence in Ukraine (one can't simply walk past the Wolfsangel and think there's nothing Nazi about it. Why else would a group use that symbol after all?). One certainly doesn't need to stop to wonder about the leanings of an individual who sings the praises of a figure such as Stepan Bandera either as the leanings are obvious if you know anything about him. You do know something about him, right? Quick, go read some history.
"Bandera and Shukhevych are heroes of Urkaine." Right.
That's right up there in the conciliatory remarks department with the popular chant, "Kommunyaku/Moskalyaku na hilyaku."
Should we talk about the war tax or perhaps the rewriting of history books? Getting attacked for presenting an undesirable point of view in one's own parliament seems a trifle dictatorial to me, what do you think?
Perhaps we should compare Poroshenko's presidential campaign rhetoric with his post campaign rhetoric and actions and see where that leads our thinking?
Svoboda's idea of filtration camps in the Donbass seemed particularly charming and didn't seem at all Nazi, I admit.
The media being strictly controlled with 'suggestions' of what they should print does seem a touch on the dictatorial side. 'Unpatriotic' press outlets have run into problems in such an environment. That does compare somewhat to Nazi history. I'm just waiting for the book burning to start, or did I miss that already? Did you save me some marshmallows at least?
There's every reason to at least suspect the CIA's hand in certain things especially in light of all the recent revelations regarding US foreign surveillance, or have you not been paying attention to those inconvenient parts in world events? You know, spying on Merkel, double agents in Germany, CIA representative getting kicked out of Germany.Where's Edward Snowden again?
BlueBlueSkies -> deniskoua, 16 August 2014 11:50am
How do you explain, that even in "Ukraine Nachrichten", what is published in Western Ukraine, meanwhile say something completely different than that you wrote?
And Poroshenko saves money for the poor?
If there was no Russia and no Putin, Ukraine wouldn't be free either. It is the prey of the US-government and the US industry magnates. The whole mess there had been put up especially for that purpose. PLUS the opportunity to disempower Russia.
This is not an idea or an opinion of mine. It's something, the US government has WRITTEN down. You can find it and read it. Search for (Zbigniew) Brezezinski, even at Wikipedia you'll find a lot. He explicitely recommended the USA to use Ukrain as a gateway to Russia.
Though me too never before had heard this name, he is a person of high influence. Obama said, he is one of the best and that he admires him. And don't think, he was only on stage in times ago. There are very new statements of him, approving what he said before.
I think, it is EXTREMELY important to know and to understand this. Because it claryfies, what who's aim is. Nobody in Europe wants war. We, the people have to make head against it, if we want to have the tiniest chance to avoid war.
The USA tycoons want war with all their might to earn even more money. With energy-industry in Ukraine, the weapon industry and at finally with energy pool of Russia. Putin is their natural enemy, because he finished their exploiting Russia without leaving any richness to the Russian people a bundle of years ago.
You can find every word of these facts in the net.
We have to know and we have to be very aware to SURVIVE. Please all you here inform yourself and make wise decisions.
Reuben Black -> Peter Stephen Johnston, 16 August 2014 12:14pm
You clearly seem to have missed the fact that I was addressing someone else's accusations, which makes me on topic. You simply missed the context. Here, let me help you out:
You talk about the tone of the news being presented by the different sides? How about comparing the Russian media talk of "Ukrainian Nazi's" and covert CIA operations and what not with the reasonable reports in the Western media. That makes your whole argument sound pretty weak now, doesn't it?
That's what I was responding to, hence the mention of the CIA. I'm fairly confident that Ukraine would have sorted itself out without the US' meddling. After all we only need to look at Iraq to what a fine job's been done in the past. Everything I mentioned in that response was about Ukraine. Please do try to pay attention. Perhaps you should do a little reading on Ukraine before commenting on relevance?
Joseph Brant -> ChuChin Chow, 15 August 2014 10:24pm
TheTruth77. 15 August 2014 7:42pmYes, we must trust the Guardian, which saw so many things and forgot to take a single photo. And the NATO official, who knows so much but forgot to show any evidence whatsoever. And the US, which has never told the truth except by regrettable coincidence. And the rightwing-bots here on the Guardian, who are so savagely convinced that Russia=bad without a shred of evidence and argument. Aren't we so easily fooled?
Just seize public office and public information with your backers of Gold, you rightwingers, and tell us all on that authority what we must believe for your benefit. Tell us all that anyone who doubts you or denies your fake foreign threats is a domestic threat. The formula from Aristotle's Politics will fool us every time.
Repeat it here:
The publication on the website Poroshenko conversation with British Prime Minister David Cameron, dated 14:22 Moscow time, it is reported that
"the sides coordinated action to respond to the information on entering the territory of Ukraine of Russian military equipment, which clearly states the international journalists in particular, the newspaper "The Guardian". The President said that this information is true and confirmed as much of this equipment was destroyed by artillery Ukrainian night ".
However, in the original version of the publication, a copy of which can be found in the cache, the search engine Google, no information about the convoy no.
It is unclear for which reason, these harsh accusations were added to the report of a telephone conversation for more than three hours later.
dion13 -> TheTruth77, 15 August 2014 7:45pm
http://president.gov.ua/en/news/30998.html
15.08.2014 14:22 - Press office of Ukraine President (Official website)
TheTruth77 -> dion13, 15 August 2014 7:53pm
Cache:
Site:
www.president.gov.ua/ru/news/30998.html
different text, same time 14:22, but google cache at 12:06
Canajin, 15 August 2014 7:43pm
Why no photos of destroyed APCs?
This is typical of Kiev's claims about the conduct of the war.
They only thing we know for sure is that Ukrainian right-wing paramilitaries are shelling Donetsk alongside the regular army.
Watching the Syria coverage, I thought sending the army in to kill your own countrymen was a war crime.
Did the combined might of the world media assembled near the Russia-Ukraine border manage to take a single photograph of the Russian APCs reported as crossing the border? The Guardian's stories carry no such photos - which seems a little odd as surely there should be hundreds of cameras there and story-hungry journos ready to take pictures of anything remotely exciting. And it's not like APCs are that fast moving - surely plenty of time to pull the iphone out a pocket and snap before they disappeared into the mist?
Vladimir Kamensky, 15 August 2014 7:44pm
May be this column is mean? Consumed column Lviv airmobile brigade Ukrainian Army
wotusaymait -> Vladimir Kamensky, 15 August 2014 8:10pm
It's sad to see people meet their end this way.
Then again, these boys from Kiev were about to help Poroshenko carry out his ethnic cleansing campaign against civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk.
tanyushka -> Oleg2323, 16 August 2014 5:17am
don't worry, it's completely irrelevant... the border between Ukraine & Russia is often a very blurred area & i wouldn't be surprised that military from both sides croses it a few yards on both directions for many silly reasons...
what is relevant is that the number of civilian deaths has doubled during the last 2 weeks & you already know that all of them are what you like to call pro-Russians...
what is relevant is that Kiev hasn't even got the excuse Israel has for shelling Gaza because we haven't sent any rockets against Ukrainian civilians...
very relevant are the more than 50 victims of the Odessa massacre, shot, burned to death, raped -- even a pregnant woman, the cleaning lady, her corpse artistically displayed to be ridiculed by the mob --, whose murders are being investigated by Ukraine's General Prosecutor, a member of Svoboda Party, not long ago called National Socialist Party... & not by accident they chose that name... of course this General Prosecutor decided the victims were murdered by Russian agents that came form nowhere with a mysterious poisonous gas... this is the same man that in a very quick investigation condemned Yanukovich & the Berkut for the Maidan victims, not worrying to investigate all those persons who were killed with shots from he Ukraine Hotel, at the moment the headquarters of the Right Sector...
what is relevant is that Stenin, an awards winner Russian photo-journalist, was abducted by the Right Sector -- there are witnesses of this -- & has been missing for almost two weeks & nobody cares, while when a VICE News guy was punched by our guys you made a scandal of it...
what is relevant is that Ukraine has shelled Russian territory a number of times, even killing one peasant, but The Guardian only mentioned the issue once in a small paragraph...
what is relevant is that the next American president will be either Hillary Clinton, who scolded Obama for not being bloody enough in Syria, or Jeb Bush...
all this is only to distract you of the Maysian airliner shot down... remember that affair? why is is that nobody is mentioning it again?
ucasavi, 15 August 2014 7:45pm
Thumbs up for Guardian. It does look like this is where Prorshenko found out about the Russian "invasion" from
Exodus20 -> Exodus20 , 15 August 2014 8:02pm
"Beware of the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar."
drums of war ... whip ... fervor ... blood ... narrow the mind ... pitch ... blood boils ... hate ... mind closed ... seizing the rights ... fear ... blinded by patriotism.
but as the BBC accidentally tweeted, and then quickly deleted
Daniel Sandford
@BBCDanielS@StandByUkraine @RobertMackey Eyewitnesses - @RolandOliphant and @shaunwalker7-did not exactly say it was "the Russian army"
Journos are backtracking
https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/500317128663511040
Robert Sandlin, 15 August 2014 7:49pm
As Mauman posted on another thread:
do we have journalist backtracking. Daniel Sanford seems to have removed his tweet.
@BBCDanielS @RobertMackey Funny way of trying to get out of it, with reports of him sending Russian army into Luhansk & Ukraine engaging it.Daniel SandfordVerified account
@BBCDanielS
@StandByUkraine @RobertMackey Eyewitnesses - @RolandOliphant and @shaunwalker7- did not exactly say it was "the Russian army"It appears the truth is leaking out of a false-flag operation.
villainesse -> AbFalsoQuodLibet, 16 August 2014 1:05pm
I thought the Yugoslavian breakup was a full-blown war with full NATO/US/Euro particiapation. Cultural regions of Yugoslavia were ultimately allowed to separate into bloody bits with NATO's blessing then.
Is Ukraine so different? Or must NATO insist on taking it all?
As the child of a Retired U.S. Navy Officer, I am sick and embarrassed of our empire's sneaky coups d'etat, color revolutions and "humanitarian" wars for oil and the profits of slavish labor, stolen land and water.
abba2002 , 15 August 2014 7:53pm
"...the information was trustworthy because the majority of those machines ... had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night..."
In other words, "the machines were real, because we've destroyed them".(?!)
Any other proof, other than "I said so"?
Oh, I forgot... the sneaky Russians have recovered all of them by dawn...nvs2014 abba2002, 15 August 2014 7:58pm
honestly Poroshenko is the biggest clown of them all
centerline, 15 August 2014 7:55pm
A pity the media does not report on the US interests in the region.
Joe Biden's son and others at Burisma Holdings.From Oil & Gas Journal
Basin-centered gas evaluated in Dnieper-Donets basin, Donbas foldbelt, Ukraine
http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-96/issue-47/in-this-issue/general-interest/basin-centered-gas-evaluated-in-dnieper-donets-basin-donbas-foldbelt-ukraine.htmlCastorium, 15 August 2014 7:56pm
http://president.gov.ua/en/news/30998.html
Russian armored fighting vehicles to the territory of Ukraine that has been clearly witnessed by international journalists, particularly of the "Guardian" newspaper.
So, journalists are witnesses of Russian vehicles in ukraine territory but don't shoot not even one photo? And then the Ukranian Artillery shoots a convoy and don't check the target to cross-reference with the journalists report? The kind of thing that would be a proof of Putin schemes? Dear lord this is hilarious...
dion13 -> Castorium, 15 August 2014 8:08pm
Let alone Cameron summoning Russian ambassador over Ukraine 'incursion'
Vlad Tatarsky, 15 August 2014 7:57pm
Bravo!!
Brilliant response to the multiple requests to provide at least some footages of the Russian troops invading Ukraine following the humanitarian convoy:
Looks like Poroshenko has just saved the faces of many NATO and EU figures engaged in repeating such bullshit by that simple cute statement!no footages guys - it was destroyed, nothing left !
I am just eager to hear similar ideas about what has happened to flight recorders of MH17 and air control recordings of Dnepropetrovsk, as well as to evidences in the case of Maidan' snipers and Odessa' fire!
abba2002, 15 August 2014 7:57pm
The Ukrainian military couldn't destroy the couple of rebels' AIV's - and they have successfully "destroyed" much better trained Russian armored column?..
..and the bridge I am about to sell you...
NormVan -> abba2002, 16 August 2014 7:18am
No mention of Russian casualties or captured Russian troops. Will they return the bodies to Russia?
Its desperation politics. Sooner or later these Oligarch will have to face some tough questions about the shooting down of the Malaysian Plane.
bobble07, 15 August 2014 8:03pm
"There was no immediate proof, and it was impossible to establish"
Why not just talk straight and say "there is no proof"
DrKropotkin -> bobble07, 15 August 2014 8:20pm
Exactly, no proof but the Guardian gives us articles with war instigating headlines. These articles could have sparked a serious incident or even a full (actual) war. The editors need to reassess what they are printing before they end up with a lot of blood on their hands.
KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 8:03pm
"The president informed [Cameron] that the information was trustworthy because the majority of those machines [Russian military vehicles] had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night," a statement from Poroshenko's office read.
If Russia invades, then Kiev would stand alone as the Western powers not NATO is going to realtically come to Ukraine's assistance. The serious consequences would be an intensified trade war and, potentially, an economically ruinous cut off of the gas supply to the west.
The west cannot be dragged into a conflict with Russia because of brinkmanship on both sides and because Kiev has continually tried to foist a military solution upon eastern Ukraine instead of pursuing a federal solution to the crisis.
This scenario would tip the already fragile economies of the Eurozone into a full scale economic collapse with consequences that would last for decades. It would also spur on the quest for energy diversification in the Eastern Mediterranean and energy routes from Qatar via Syria and Turkey.
The Ukrainian nationalist government in Kiev played a dangerous game in attempting to foist a military solution to the uprising in eastern Ukraine and the use of grad rockets and shells against cities and town, including Donetsk. It may have been emboldened by the West's attitude to Israel's action in Gaza.
True, Russia has cynically exploited the weakness in that strategy and the Ukraine's use of grad rockets to kill civilians in cities in the east to put forward the idea of an emergency humanitarian intervention in a shadowy carbon copy of Western strategy with regards the crisis in northern Iraq.
The EU shares the blame for having failed earlier to use diplomacy to put pressure on Kiev to concede greater federal powers on the east so as to to detach Russian speaking citizens from Russian backed proxy forces because now Russian speaking citizens in Donetsk face a bloody military endgame.
KarlNaylor75 -> John Christian Lønningdal, 15 August 2014 9:04pm
If Kiev had been interested in avoiding the escalation of the situation in the east of Ukraine it should not have committed itself to a military solution there. It did and the consequences could well be a Russian invasion or some sort of 'ground incursion'.
The crisis reached this point because Kiev rejected greater regional autonomy for the east and treated the Donetsk Republic as one huge scam, a region filled with 'bandits' and 'terrorists'. That only lead to a backlash and rise of nationalist tensions.
There was no attempt to push for a referendum after Poroshenko was elected on regional autonomy for the Donbass while the Lviv region,a centre for Ukrainian nationalism, had already been granted it in February 2014. Instead Poroshenko was intent on war and force.
Anatol Lieven spelt out the consequences back in June in The New York Review of Book,
If Ukrainian forces continue their assault on rebel strongholds in eastern Ukraine, then only three things can happen, separately or in sequence: they will be beaten back with the help of Russian weaponry, which has so far been used to shoot down three Ukrainian helicopters at Sloviansk; they will retake one or two towns, after which Russia will reinforce other towns with lightly disguised Russian special forces, making their capture much harder; and if Ukrainian forces resort to heavy weaponry to blast the rebels from their positions, Russia will invade.
The only question then will be where the Russian army will stop: whether Moscow would be content to hold the Donbas, as it previously held South Ossetia and Abkhazia as quasi-independent statelets formally still part of Georgia, or whether it would go on to seize half of Ukraine.
eviscerate -> KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 9:07pm
KarlNaylor75, Your prescribed scenario would tip the Eurozone into a full scale economic collapse !
In my humble opinion this is exactly what the USofA is about to accomplish by using the Ukraine to put a wedge into the Eurozone's and Russia's commercial relationship. It is obvious that even Merkel is dancing to Washington's tunes instead of looking after the welfare of her people and trade with Russia --
KarlNaylor75 -> ArundelXVI, 15 August 2014 9:10pm
There really isn't "brinkmanship on both sides". In that, this is completely a problem and headache of Putin's making, he's rattling sabers and the sides of his pram. He feels ignored and wants to feel important.
No, there is now brinkmanship on both sides. For background reading on how this crisis reached such levels, have a read of the Anatol Lieven article I linked to above as a sane antidote to the sort of rabid and unenlightening propaganda this conflict generates on both sides.
Bosula -> KarlNaylor75, 15 August 2014 11:16pm
Good response.
It is time that the Western media report on what is happening with privately funded militias driving over to East Ukraine to terrorise East Ukraine.
This is a bizarre situation and requires more in depth analysis.
Danish5666 -> ArundelXVI, 16 August 2014 7:47am
"this is completely a problem and headache of Putin's making, he's rattling sabers and the sides of his pram".
Yes let us forget EU and the US involvement in creating this Ukrainian crisis, like the "investment" of 5 billion dollars according to estimate by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland all the while she had cookies for the demonstrators on Maidan, and not to mention her infamous phone conversation spelling out who would be in the new government.
The political crisis in Ukraine reached a boiling point Feb. 20-22 as the demonstrations turned increasingly violent and the death toll among police and protesters mounted. On Feb. 21, three European foreign ministers reached an agreement with Yanukovych in which he agreed to limit his powers and accept early elections to vote him out of office. He also pulled back the police, as Vice President Joe Biden had demanded.At that point, however, well-trained neo-Nazi militias – organized in brigades of 100 – took the offensive, seizing government buildings and forcing Yanukovych's officials to flee for their lives. Instead of trying to enforce the Feb. 21 agreement, which would have safeguarded Ukraine's constitutional process, the U.S. State Department cheered the unlawful ouster of Yanukovych and quickly recognized the coup regime as "legitimate."
The Feb. 22 coup set in motion a train of other events as "ethnically pure" Ukrainians in the west were pitted against ethnic Russians in the east and south. The crisis grew bloodier as the ethnic Russians resisted what they regarded as an illegitimate regime in Kiev.
Meanwhile, the U.S. mainstream press – always enthralled to the neocons – pushed a false narrative about Ukraine that put nearly all the blame on Putin, though he clearly was reacting to provocations instigated by the West, not the other way around.
Insight47 -> ArundelXVI, 16 August 2014 10:45am
Well Ukrainian MPs did call for the "extermination of Russian presence in Ukraine" when they passed race laws against ethnic Russian speaking people who are their fellow citizen. So it could be called a very brutal form of "brinkmanship". When was Russia supposed to act - when you set up concentration camps as in WW2?
priceus, 15 August 2014 8:03pm
If Russia had wanted to invade Ukraine Putin would have just done it.
It looks like provocation to me, the script was that Russia was supposed to invade Ukraine and get bogged down in a war but Putin saw the bait and refused to take a bite.
Russians know that this battle is about who will control Russia's vast territory and resources into the distant future. The West would like a Yeltsin, they would also like a softie at the UN security council to rubber stamp all their acts of aggression around the world.
Jeffkopite, 15 August 2014 8:08pm
Quite incredible that no member of the Ukrainian army had a mobile phone, camera or any other video gear to record their incredible victory. Even more incredible that the British PM made a comment on this given his silence on his mates or should that be donators from Israel. I have no idea what is going on but I would not believe the BS we are being fed at the moment all geared to take the heat off what is happening in Israel and the fact that ISIS or IS or whoever they are were on our side when they were fighting in Syria. We never learn do we
ID075732 -> Jeffkopite, 15 August 2014 8:15pm
Very surprising, but we've had stranger reports masquerading as news.
If this proves true it will be a game changer:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/08/11/24695/rodney9, 15 August 2014 8:11pm
The first confirmed military engagement between the two adversaries since the crisis blew up in the spring.
Confirmed? If a reprise or recapitulation is allowed. After the accounts of the "mini-invasion" yesterday that left many unexplained questions. Two articles have appeared today in the Guardian firstly Russia denies military vehicles entered Ukraine
in which it was reported that the Kremlin had said it was a guard unit which was there to prevent 'infiltration' of its territory and they denied any movement across the border. So now we knew, it was a column of a FSB mobile border guard team that was on patrol and never left the border zone. Most of us thought this had put the thing to bed, as the only reporting and footage by the two journalists was always taken from the side of the Russian border. But then unexpectedly, we get this Ukraine says it has destroyed Russian vehicles that entered territory
Poroshenko in a phone call to David Cameron informed him that the information from the two journalists Walker and Oliphant was trustworthy and said the majority of this border guard team had been tracked and eliminated by Ukrainian artillery at night. So a further conflicting account that harks back to yesterdays 'mini-invasion' story.Because the story reared its head again, and wouldn't die, the Russians have issued an even stronger démenti No Russian troops crossed into Ukraine – FSB
Will it be enough? Clearly not. What worries me is that when we think of the downing of MH-17 this claim and counter claim is really quiet disturbing and also that our politicians are so badly advised from Kiev and play catch up (we remember that Cameron vouched for the authenticity of the fake You Tube video before MPs in the House of Commons) and once again they condemn Russia without having any true evidence before them.
The hallucinatory madness of the politicians is evident particularly with Poroshenko. That western politicians so easily enter into this believing something that never happened is very very frightening. Thus the "mini-invasion" took place and there was even fighting and Russian vehicles that entered/never entered the Ukraine were subsequently destroyed /not destroyed. Thankfully people are increasingly demanding evidence these days and the lack of it is always very revealing. Can we expect a story on tunnels into Ukraine soon?
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Asia Times
First, passenger airliner MH370 vanished from Planet Earth. Then MH370 vanished from the news cycle. First, MH17 was shot down by "Putin's missile" - as Planet Earth was told. Then MH17 vanished from the news cycle.
... ... ...
Black boxes, data recorders - everything MH17 is now floating in a black void. The British are taking forever to analyze the data - and if they have already done so, they are not talking. It's as if they were singing, I see a black box / and I want it painted black … void.
The Pentagon, with 20-20 vision over Ukraine, knows what happened. Russian intelligence not only knows what happened but offered a tantalizing glimpse of it in an official presentation, dismissed by the "West". The best technical analyses point not to "Putin's missile" - a BUK - but to a combination of R-60 air-to-air missile and the auto-cannon of an Su-25.
A reader led me to this fair assessment by former USAF and Boeing engineer Raymond Blohm: "With proper vectoring, a Su-25 need not be quite as fast as a Boeing 777 in cruise. It just has to get to a missile-firing position. Since the 777 was not maneuvering, it would be simple to pre-calculate when to get in a certain spot in the sky below the 777. From there, it's the missile that has the speed and altitude capability to hit the 777. (The R-60 is a very capable missile.) After the missile takes out an engine, both the 777's max speed and its max altitude are well within the Su-25 fighter's speed & altitude capabilities. Then, the Su-25 can show off its cannon power."
Follow the engine wreckage. Follow the cockpit wreckage. Follow the motive. One cannot even imagine the tectonic geopolitical plates clashing were the Kiev regime to be deemed responsible. It would be the vanishing point for the whole - warped - notion of the Empire of Chaos's "indispensable" exceptionalism.
... ... ...
Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007), Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge (Nimble Books, 2007), and Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009).
Aug 14, 2014 | The Unz Review
...A perfect example of this dangerous MSM "conspiracy of silence" may be found in the growing confrontation with Russia over Ukraine, greatly accelerated by the death of almost 300 passengers aboard Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, shot down last month over Eastern Ukraine. The American media and its Western counterparts have almost unanimously placed the blame on anti-government rebels backed by Russia, and darkly insinuate that Russian President Vladimir Putin has the blood of those hundreds of innocent lives on his hands. London's once-respected Economist magazine has repeatedly run shrill covers promoting the great threat of Putin and Russia to world peace, even featuring a photo of the former under the stark title "A Web of Lies." There is the serious likelihood of a renewed Cold War against Russia and with the neoconized Republicans in Congress proposing legislation to incorporate Ukraine as an American military ally and deploy American forces there, the actual possibility of a military clash near the Russian border.
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For example, according to the official American story, MH17 was downed by rebels armed with a BUK anti-aircraft missile battery. As it happens, the pro-American Ukraine government possesses a large inventory of exactly those weapons, while it is far from clear that the rebels have a single unit, let alone the expertise to operate such sophisticated devices. Furthermore, there apparently exists radar evidence demonstrating that Ukraine fighter planes were in the immediate vicinity of MH17 just before it was shot down and there are firsthand reports from investigators on the ground that portions of the crashed fuselage showed strong evidence of having been hit the sort of heavy machine-gun fire employed in air combat. I find it extremely suspicious that the American government has repeatedly refused to release the evidence supporting its narrative, while the Russian government has released copious evidence supporting its contrary perspective.
We must bear in mind that the downing of MH17 and the deaths of the hundreds of mostly European passengers came as a fortuitous stroke of fortune for the embattled Kiev government and its neoconservative American backers, given that Germany and most of the other major European governments had just balked at approving the harsh anti-Russian economic sanctions being proposed by the White House. Cui bono?
Furthermore, this terrible suspicion that 300 innocent lives may have been sacrificed in a ghastly false-flag operation by an American-supported government is somewhat buttressed by earlier events. Consider that the overthrow of the democratically-elected and neutralist Ukrainian government was sparked by the massive bloodshed that erupted between riot police and pro-American demonstrators in the Kievan capital, as many hundreds on both sides were suddenly killed or wounded by an outbreak of heavy gunfire over a couple of nights. I found it very intriguing that soon afterward an intercepted telephone call between the pro-Western foreign minister of Estonia and European High Commissioner Catherine Ashton, later confirmed to be genuine, revealed that the bullets found in the bodies of both government police and anti-government demonstrators had apparently come from the same guns. The most plausible explanation of this strange detail is that the snipers responsible were professionals brought in to cause the massive bloodshed necessary to overthrow the government, which is exactly what soon followed. Again cui bono?
Am I certain about these facts, let alone the analysis built upon them? Absolutely not! As emphasized, I've been entirely preoccupied with other matters over the last few months. But if such obvious suspicions are apparent to someone who occasionally glances at the news reports out of the corner of his mind's eye, the total silence of the American media and its huge corps of full-time professional journalists constitutes a very telling indictment. Personally, I think there's a high likelihood that forces aligned with current pro-Western regime were responsible for the massacre in Kiev's Maidan Square and a better than fifty-fifty chance they more recently shot down MH17, but I really can't be sure about either of these things. However, I am absolutely 100% certain that the American MSM has been revealed as a totally worthless source of information on these crucial world events, although it can be relied upon to provide every last detail of Robin Williams' troubled life or the endless foibles of the Kardashians.
In the interests of providing our readers at least some access to alternate accounts of why we may now be heading into a new Cold War against Russia-or even a hot one- I've recently republished a couple of Mike Whitney's fine Counterpunch columns on the mysteries of Flight MH17, which cautiously raised questions rather than claimed to answer them, as well as those of the redoubtable Paul Craig Roberts.
Aside from attracting considerable debate from our website's often "excitable" commenters, whose views range from the sensible to the deranged, our Whitney columns regarding MH17 had a far more important consequence. One of our left-liberal readers was shocked to read facts totally absent from the pages of The Nation, the Huffington Post, or any of the other left-liberal sites she visits. Out of curiosity, she contacted a very prominent left-liberal American academic, someone with special expertise in exactly that area of Europe. To her considerable surprise, he largely confirmed the outlandish "conspiracy theory," saying that the evidence increasingly indicated that the American-backed Kiev government had shot down Flight MH17, either accidentally or otherwise.
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The European Union is not (anymore) guided by politicians with a grasp of history, a sober assessment of global reality, or simple common sense connected with the long term interests of what they are guiding. If any more evidence was needed, it has certainly been supplied by the sanctions they have agreed on last week aimed at punishing Russia.One way to fathom their foolishness is to start with the media, since whatever understanding or concern these politicians may have personally they must be seen to be doing the right thing, which is taken care of by TV and newspapers.
In much of the European Union the general understanding of global reality since the horrible fate of the people on board the Malaysian Airliner comes from mainstream newspapers and TV which have copied the approach of Anglo-American mainstream media, and have presented 'news' in which insinuation and vilification substitute for proper reporting. Respected publications, like the Financial Times or the once respected NRC Handelsblad of the Netherlands for which I worked sixteen years as East Asia Correspondent, not only joined in with this corrupted journalism but helped guide it to mad conclusions. The punditry and editorials that have grown out of this have gone further than anything among earlier examples of sustained media hysteria stoked for political purposes that I can remember. The most flagrant example I have come across, an anti-Putin leader in the (July 26) Economist Magazine, had the tone of Shakespeare's Henry V exhorting his troops before the battle of Agincourt as he invaded France.
One should keep in mind that there are no European-wide newspapers or publications to sustain a European public sphere, in the sense of a means for politically interested Europeans to ponder and debate with each other big international developments. Because those interested in world affairs usually read the international edition of the New York Times or the Financial Times, questions and answers on geopolitical matters are routinely shaped or strongly influenced by what editors in New York and London have determined as being important. Thinking that may deviate significantly as can now be found in Der Spiegel, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Die Zeit and Handelsblatt, does not travel across German borders. Hence we do not see anything like a European opinion evolving on global affairs, even when these have a direct impact on the interests of the European Union itself.
The Dutch population was rudely shaken out of a general complacency with respect to world events that could affect it, through the death of 193 fellow nationals (along with a 105 people of other nationalities) in the downed plane, and its media were hasty in following the American-initiated finger-pointing at Moscow. Explanations that did not in some way involve culpability of the Russian president seemed to be out of bounds. This was at odds right away with statements of a sober Dutch prime minister, who was under considerable pressure to join the fingerpointing but who insisted on waiting for a thorough examination of what precisely had happened.
The TV news programs I saw in the days immediately afterwards had invited, among other anti–Russian expositors, American neocon-linked talking heads to do the disclosing to a puzzled and truly shaken up audience. A Dutch foreign policy specialist explained that the foreign minister or his deputy could not go to the site of the crash (as Malaysian officials did) to recover the remains of Dutch citizens, because that would amount to an implicit recognition of diplomatic status for the "separatists". When the European Union en bloc recognizes a regime that has come into existence through an American initiated coup d'état, you are diplomatically stuck with it.
The inhabitants and anti-Kiev fighters at the crash site were portrayed, with images from youtube, as uncooperative criminals, which for many viewers amounted to a confirmation of their guilt. This changed when later reports from actual journalists showed shocked and deeply concerned villagers, but the discrepancy was not explained, and earlier assumptions of villainy did not make way for any objective analysis of why these people might be fighting at all. Tendentious twitter and youtube 'news' had become the basis for official Dutch indignation with the East Ukrainians, and a general opinion arose that something had to be set straight, which was, again in general opinion, accomplished by a grand nationally televised reception of the human remains (released through Malaysian mediation) in a dignified sober martial ceremony.
Nothing that I have seen or read even intimated that the Ukraine crisis – which led to coup and civil war – was created by neoconservatives and a few R2P ("Responsibility to Protect") fanatics in the State Department and the White House, apparently given a free hand by President Obama. The Dutch media also appeared unaware that the catastrophe was immediately turned into a political football for White House and State Department purposes. The likelihood that Putin was right when he said that the catastrophe would not have happened if his insistence on a cease-fire had been accepted, was not entertained.
As it was, Kiev broke the cease-fire – on the 10th of June – in its civil war against Russian speaking East Ukrainians who do not wish to be governed by a collection of thugs, progeny of Ukrainian nazis, and oligarchs enamored of the IMF and the European Union. The supposed 'rebels' have been responding to the beginnings of ethnic cleansing operations (systematic terror bombing and atrocities – 30 or more Ukrainians burned alive) committed by Kiev forces, of which little or nothing has penetrated into European news reports.
It is unlikely that the American NGOs, which by official admission spent 5 billion dollars in political destabilization efforts prior to the February putsch in Kiev, have suddenly disappeared from the Ukraine, or that America's military advisors and specialized troops have sat idly by as Kiev's military and militias mapped their civil war strategy; after all, the new thugs are as a regime on financial life-support provided by Washington, the European Union and IMF. What we know is that Washington is encouraging the ongoing killing in the civil war it helped trigger.
But Washington has constantly had the winning hand in a propaganda war against, entirely contrary to what mainstream media would have us believe, an essentially unwilling opponent. Waves of propaganda come from Washington and are made to fit assumptions of a Putin, driven and assisted by a nationalism heightened by the loss of the Soviet empire, who is trying to expand the Russian Federation up to the borders of that defunct empire. The more adventurous punditry, infected by neocon fever, has Russia threatening to envelop the West. Hence Europeans are made to believe that Putin refuses diplomacy, while he has been urging this all along. Hence prevailing propaganda has had the effect that not Washington's but Putin's actions are seen as dangerous and extreme. Anyone with a personal story that places Putin or Russia in a bad light must move right now; Dutch editors seem insatiable at the moment.
There is no doubt that the frequently referred to Moscow propaganda exists. But there are ways for serious journalists to weigh competing propaganda and discern how much veracity or lies and bullshit they contain. Within my field of vision this has only taken place a bit in Germany. For the rest we must piece political reality together relying on the now more than ever indispensable American websites hospitable to whistleblowers and old-fashioned investigative journalism, which especially since the onset of the 'war on terrorism' and the Iraq invasion have formed a steady form of samizdat publishing.
In the Netherlands almost anything that comes from the State Department is taken at face value. America's history, since the demise of the Soviet Union, of truly breathtaking lies: on Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Venezuela, Libya and North Korea; its record of overthrown governments; its black-op and false flag operations; and its stealthily garrisoning of the planet with some thousand military bases, is conveniently left out of consideration. The near hysteria throughout a week following the downed airliner prevented people with some knowledge of relevant history from opening their mouths. Job security in the current world of journalism is quite shaky, and going against the tide would be almost akin to siding with the devil, as it would damage one's journalistic 'credibility'.
What strikes an older generation of serious journalists as questionable about the mainstream media's credibility is editorial indifference to potential clues that would undermine or destroy the official story line; a story line that has already permeated popular culture as is evident in throwaway remarks embellishing book and film reviews along with much else. In the Netherlands the official story is already carved in stone, which is to be expected when it is repeated ten-thousand times. It cannot be discounted, of course, but it is based on not a shred of evidence.
The presence of two Ukrainian fighter planes near the Malaysian airliner on Russian radar would be a potential clue I would be very interested in if I were investigating either as journalist or member of the investigation team that the Netherlands officially leads. This appeared to be corroborated by a BBC Report with eyewitness accounts from the ground by villagers who clearly saw another plane, a fighter, close to the airliner, near the time of its crash, and heard explosions coming from the sky. This report has recently drawn attention because it was removed from the BBC's archive. I would want to talk with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first inspectors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to reach the crash site who spent more than a week examining the wreckage and has described on CBC World News two or three "really pock-marked" pieces of fuselage. "It almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven't seen anywhere else."
I would certainly also want to have a look at the allegedly confiscated radar and voice records of the Kiev Air Control Tower to understand why the Malaysian pilot veered off course and rapidly descended shortly before his plane crashed, and find out whether foreign air controllers in Kiev were indeed sent packing immediately after the crash. Like the "Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity", I would certainly urge the American authorities with access to satellite images to show the evidence they claim to have of BUK missile batteries in 'rebel' hands as well as of Russian involvement, and ask them why they have not done so already. Until now Washington has acted like a driver who refuses a breathalyzer test. Since intelligence officials have leaked to some American newspapers their lesser certainty about the American certainties as brought to the world by the Secretary of State, my curiosity would be unrelenting.
To place European media loyalty to Washington in the Ukraine case as well as the slavish conduct of European politicians in perspective, we must know about and understand Atlanticism. It is a European faith. It has not given rise to an official doctrine, of course, but it functions like one. It is well summed up by the Dutch slogan at the time of the Iraq invasion: "zonder Amerika gaat het niet" (without the United States [things] [it] won't work). Needless to say, the Cold War gave birth to Atlanticism. Ironically, it gained strength as the threat from the Soviet Union became less persuasive for increasing numbers among European political elites. That probably was a matter of generational change: the farther away from World War II, the less European governments remembered what it means to have an independent foreign policy on global-sized issues. Current heads of government of the European Union are unfamiliar with practical strategic deliberations. Routine thought on international relations and global politics is deeply entrenched in Cold War epistemology.
This inevitably also informs 'responsible' editorial policies. Atlanticism is now a terrible affliction for Europe: it fosters historical amnesia, willful blindness and dangerously misconceived political anger. But it thrives on a mixture of lingering unquestioned Cold War era certainties about protection, Cold War loyalties embedded in popular culture, sheer European ignorance, and an understandable reluctance to concede that one has even for a little bit been brainwashed. Washington can do outrageous things while leaving Atlanticism intact because of everyone's forgetfulness, which the media do little or nothing to cure. I know Dutch people who have become disgusted with the villification of Putin, but the idea that in the context of Ukraine the fingerpointing should be toward Washington is well-nigh unacceptable. Hence, Dutch publications, along with many others in Europe, cannot bring themselves to place the Ukraine crisis in proper perspective by acknowledging that Washington started it all, and that Washington rather than Putin has the key to its solution. It would impel a renunciation of Atlanticism.
Atlanticism derives much of its strength through NATO, its institutional embodiment. The reason for NATO's existence, which disappeard with the demise of the Soviet Union, has been largely forgotten. Formed in 1949, it was based on the idea that transatlantic cooperation for security and defense had become necessary after World War II in the face of a communism, orchestrated by Moscow, intent on taking over the entire planet. Much less talked about was European internal distrust, as the Europeans set off on their first moves towards economic integration. NATO constituted a kind of American guarantee that no power in Europe would ever try to dominate the others.
NATO has for some time now been a liability for the European Union, as it prevents development of concerted European foreign and defense policies, and has forced the member states to become instruments serving American militarism. It is also a moral liability because the governments participating in the 'coalition of the willing' have had to sell the lie to their citizens that European soldiers dying in Iraq and Afghanistan have been a necessary sacrifice to keep Europe safe from terrorists. Governments that have supplied troops to areas occupied by the United States have generally done this with considerable reluctance, earning the reproach from a succession of American officials that Europeans do too little for the collective purpose of defending democracy and freedom.
As is the mark of an ideology, Atlanticism is ahistorical. As horse medicine against the torment of fundamental political ambiguity it supplies its own history: one that may be rewritten by American mainstream media as they assist in spreading the word from Washington.
There could hardly be a better demonstration of this than the Dutch experience at the moment. In conversations these past three weeks I have encountered genuine surprise when reminding friends that the Cold War ended through diplomacy with a deal made on Malta between Gorbachev and the elder Bush in December 1989, in which James Baker got Gorbachev to accept the reunification of Germany and withdrawal of Warsaw Pact troops with a promise that NATO would not be extended even one inch to the East. Gorbachev pledged not to use force in Eastern Europe where the Russians had some 350,000 troops in East Germany alone, in return for Bush's promise that Washington would not take advantage of a Soviet withdrawal from Eastern Europe. Bill Clinton reneged on those American promises when, for purely electoral reasons, he boasted about an enlargement of NATO and in 1999 made the Czech Republic and Hungary full members. Ten years later another nine countries became members, at which point the number of NATO countries was double the number during the Cold War. The famous American specialist on Russia, Ambassador George Kennan, originator of Cold War containment policy, called Clinton's move "the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era."
Historical ignorance abetted by Atlanticism is poignantly on display in the contention that the ultimate proof in the case against Vladimir Putin is his invasion of Crimea. Again, political reality here was created by America's mainstream media. There was no invasion, as the Russian sailors and soldiers were already there since it is home to the 'warm water' Black Sea base for the Russian navy. Crimea has been a part of Russia for as long as the United States has existed. In 1954 Khrushchev, who himself came from the Ukraine, gave it to the Ukrainian Socialist Republic, which came down to moving a region to a different province, since Russia and Ukraine still belonged to the same country. The Russian speaking Crimean population was happy enough, as it voted in a referendum first for independence from the Kiev regime that resulted from the coup d'état, and subsequently for reunification with Russia.
Those who maintain that Putin had no right to do such a thing are unaware of another strand of history in which the United States has been moving (Star Wars) missile defense systems ever closer to Russian borders, supposedly to intercept hostile missiles from Iran, which do not exist. Sanctimonious talk about territorial integrity and sovereignty makes no sense under these circumstances, and coming from a Washington that has done away with the concept of sovereignty in its own foreign policy it is downright ludicrous.
A detestable Atlanticist move was the exclusion of Putin from the meetings and other events connected with the commemoration of the Normandy landings, for the first time in 17 years. The G8 became the G7 as a result. Amnesia and ignorance have made the Dutch blind to a history that directly concerned them, since the Soviet Union took the heart out of the Nazi war machine (that occupied the Netherlands) at a cost of incomparable and unimaginable numbers of military dead; without that there would not have been a Normandy invasion.
Not so long ago, the complete military disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan appeared to be moving NATO to a point where its inevitable demise could not to be too far off. But the Ukraine crisis and Putin's decisiveness in preventing the Crimea with its Russian Navy base from possibly falling into the hands of the American-owned alliance, has been a godsend to this earlier faltering institution.
NATO leadership has already been moving troops to strengthen their presence in the Baltic states, sending missiles and attack aircraft to Poland and Lithuania, and since the downing of the Malaysian airliner it has been preparing further military moves that may turn into dangerous provocations of Russia. It has become clear that the Polish foreign minister together with the Baltic countries, none of which partook in NATO when its reason for being could still be defended, have become a strong driving force behind it. A mood of mobilization has spread in the past week. The ventriloquist dummies Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Jaap de Hoop Scheffer can be relied upon to take to TV screens inveighing against NATO member-state backsliding. Rasmussen, the current Secretary General, declared on August 7 in Kiev that NATO's "support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine is unwavering" and that he is looking to strengthen partnership with the country at the Alliance's summit in Wales in September. That partnership is already strong, so he said, "and in response to Russia's aggression, NATO is working even more closely with Ukraine to reform its armed forces and defense institutions."
In the meantime, in the American Congress 23 Senate Republicans have sponsored legislation, the "Russian Aggression Prevention Act", which is meant to allow Washington to make the Ukraine a non-NATO ally and could set the stage for a direct military conflict with Russia. We will probably have to wait until after America's midterm elections to see what will become of it, but it already helps provide a political excuse for those in Washington who want to take next steps in the Ukraine.
In September last year Putin helped Obama by making it possible for him to stop a bombing campaign against Syria pushed by the neocons, and had also helped in defusing the nuclear dispute with Iran, another neocon project. This led to a neocon commitment to break the Putin-Obama link. It is hardly a secret that the neoconservatives desire the overthrow of Putin and eventual dismemberment of the Russian Federation. Less known in Europe is the existence of numerous NGOs at work in Russia, which will help them with this. Vladimir Putin could strike now or soon, to preempt NATO and the American Congress, by taking Eastern Ukraine, something he probably should have done right after the Crimean referendum. That would, of course, be proof of his evil intentions in European editorial eyes.
In the light of all this, one of the most fateful questions to ask in current global affairs is: what has to happen for Europeans to wake up to the fact that Washington is playing with fire and has ceased being the protector they counted on, and is instead now endangering their security? Will the moment come when it becomes clear that the Ukraine crisis is, most of all, about placing Star Wars missile batteries along an extensive stretch of Russian border, which gives Washington – in the insane lingo of nuclear strategists – 'first strike' capacity?
It is beginning to sink in among older Europeans that the United States has enemies who are not Europe's enemies because it needs them for domestic political reasons; to keep an economically hugely important war industry going and to test by shorthand the political bona fides of contenders for public office. But while using rogue states and terrorists as targets for 'just wars' has never been convincing, Putin's Russia as demonized by a militaristic NATO could help prolong the transatlantic status quo. The truth behind the fate of the Malaysian airliner, I thought from the moment that I heard about it, would be politically determined. Its black boxes are in London. In NATO hands?
Other hindrances to an awakening remain huge; financialization and neoliberal policies have produced an intimate transatlantic entwining of plutocratic interests. Together with the Atlanticist faith these have helped stymie the political development of the European Union, and with that Europe's ability to proceed with independent political decisions. Since Tony Blair, Great Britain has been in Washington's pocket, and since Nicolas Sarkozy one can say more or less the same of France.
That leaves Germany. Angela Merkel was clearly unhappy with the sanctions, but in the end went along because she wants to remain on the good side of the American president, and the United States as the conqueror in World War II does still have leverage through a variety of agreements. Germany's foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, quoted in newspapers and appearing on TV, repudiated the sanctions and points at Iraq and Libya as examples of the results brought by escalation and ultimatums, yet he too swings round and in the end goes along with them.
Der Spiegel is one of the German publications that offer hope. One of its columnists, Jakob Augstein, attacks the "sleepwalkers" who have agreed to sanctions, and censures his colleagues' finger-pointing at Moscow. Gabor Steingart, who publishes Handelsblatt, inveighs against the "American tendency to verbal and then to military escalation, the isolation, demonization, and attacking of enemies" and concludes that also German journalism
"has switched from level-headed to agitated in a matter of weeks. The spectrum of opinions has been narrowed to the field of vision of a sniper scope."
There must be more journalists in other parts of Europe who say things like this, but their voices do not carry through the din of vilification.
History is being made, once again. What may well determine Europe's fate is that also outside the defenders of the Atlanticist faith, decent Europeans cannot bring themselves to believe in the dysfunction and utter irresponsibility of the American state.
Karel van Wolferen is a Dutch journalist and retired professor at the University of Amsterdam. Since 1969, he has published over twenty books on public policy issues, which have been translated into eleven languages and sold over a million copies worldwide. As a foreign correspondent for NRC Handelsblad , one of Holland's leading newspapers, he received the highest Dutch award for journalism, and over the years his articles have appeared in The New York Times , The Washington Post , The New Republic , The National Interest , Le Monde , and numerous other newspapers and magazines.
rod1963, August 14, 2014 at 7:16 pm GMT
Hepp
Whether or not such a agreement it exists, it's not wise to push a nuclear armed nation and one that holds the economic fate of the EU in it's hands, into a corner. Then to make matters worse, toppling a regime right next to Putin's with a bunch of shadowy NGO's that are front groups for the USG.
That wasn't going to be well received by Putin and he rebuked us by taking back the Crimea, not that it was Ukraine's to begin with despite what a bunch of sleazy Americans from the Hamptons say.
Bill Blizzard and his Men, August 14, 2014 at 7:36 pm GMT
@rod1963
It comes down to whether or not one thinks that the Russian People have a right to defend themselves againt the mass murderers Susan Rice and Samantha Powers. I'd say it is mighty obvious that the Russian People do.
Samantha Powers is very close personally to the Havard Economists whose economic warfare against the Russian People during the 1990s caused a massive demographic collapse of the Russian Population during the Clinton Era. How many Russians are missing from the Russian Population in 2014?..
The ones that died directly from the billionaire Oligarchs gang rape of Russia and the Russian infants who were never born as a consequence of Clinton Democratic Party Economic Warfare. Is Genocide too strong a word?
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Anonymous said...
It appears to me that the Putin faction adopted the correct course. If Russia had invaded Ukraine, disposing of the Ukrainian army would have been trivial. However, in the absence of overwhelming support, as was present in Crimea but absent in the rest of Ukraine, Russia then would have been faced with the quagmire of a guerrilla war.
Despite corruption and incompetence, Ukraine is producing plenty of soldiers and, however ineptly, they appear to be fighting.
Additionally, I am not seeing the level of support on the rebel side one would expect. It appears to this outsider that Cossacks, Chechnyans and other outside volunteers, good men all, are carrying quite a bit of the load while too many people sit on their hands. Strelkov himself has said as much, has he not?
Based on these realities, the Putin faction, while it has made a few mistakes, is pursuing the best strategy.
After a cold, grim winter and an economic collapse, the whole country may simply fall in Russia's lap, possibly next year.
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Aug 15, 2014 | http://truth-out.org
Ukraine also published photos displaying the anti-aircraft missile system in question located on territory the rebels' control. The Ukrainian officials argued that the pictures were taken by their own satellites. However, as described earlier, only American and Russian satellites were over Ukrainian territory at the time of the crash. Incorrect date, time and location of shadows from objects as well as the lack of cloud cover registered that day also proved that those photos were fake.
It is very surprising that Ukraine has yet to release a recording of the communications between the MH17 crew and a Ukrainian air controller who "accompanied" the aircraft up to the tragedy. This naturally casts suspicions that the Ukrainian authorities are trying to conceal some facts.
Ukrainian attempts to destroy evidence at the crash site testify to the same thing. Since MH17 was downed, Ukrainian troops continued military operations in and around the crash site, including shelling areas where debris lay. This in spite of the fact there was no military infrastructure or rebel roadblocks in the area.
Then there is the strange fact that international inspectors were prevented from accessing the crash site for four consecutive days, July 27 to 30. Ukraine officials said that military operations by rebel fighters were responsible. But it was Ukraine that refused to call a ceasefire in the area, and The New York Times described the arrival, finally, of inspectors on July 31 in these words: "Ukrainian officials said they had suspended offensive operations against the rebels to allow the monitors to reach the site safely. Commanders at Ukrainian military positions near the site confirmed that they had been ordered to halt their advance."
New York Times journalist Sabrina Tavernise, who reported from the region of the crash in the hours and days following, told a television interviewer on July 29 that rebel fighters were not blocking access to the site and that the barriers beginning on July 27 were created by Ukraine forces. What were Ukrainian officials doing at the site during this time?
The Russian Argument
Russia rejects all accusations that it had a hand in the downing of MH17. During a news briefing on July 21, the Russian Department of Defense presented its air traffic control data on the crash. According to the data, the airplane deviated from its assigned route of that day for 14 kilometers over the area of armed conflict.
The Russian Defense Department detected a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft, presumably an Su-25, at a distance of three to five kilometers from the Boeing.
In addition, the Russian military made public satellite images depicting the Ukrainian air defense units located close to the crash area. So it's clear that the route of MH17 was within the range of Ukrainian anti-aircraft systems.
The Russian side also refers to the statements of Ukrainian officials. Thus, according to media reports, Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema of Ukraine told Ukraine media on July 18 that the rebels possessed neither Buk nor S-300 air defense systems.
At the same time, the Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles were present in the area of conflict shortly before the aircraft's downing. For what purpose? Rebels have never possessed any aviation units.
Russia accuses Ukraine and its supporters of failing to adhere to UN Security Council Resolution 2166, which was adopted unanimously on July 21. It calls for a cessation of military and all other activity that would impede the international investigation of the crash or disturb the wreckage of the plane and the bodies of those who lost their lives. Ukraine resumed military operations within days of the adoption of the resolution.
In August, Russia sought a new resolution from the Security Council to prohibit any activity that would "violate the integrity" of the crash site. Its proposed resolution was blocked when some countries, including the United States, sought to add inappropriate clauses, such as condemning the actions of rebel forces.
My Opinion
According to Ukraine, rebels possessed one Buk launcher capable of shooting down airplanes, even at the height of 10,000 meters. As for the Buk anti-aircraft system, it is quite a complicated system. When fully installed, the system consists of four vehicles. It's hard to imagine how the launcher could "accidentally" lock onto a Boeing 777 passenger aircraft and shoot it down without guidance and targeting stations present and operational.
A friend of mine, an air defense officer, told me an interesting thing. The Buk launcher hitting range is about 30 to 40 kilometers. Militaries always use several missile launchers to destroy air targets, as at a high altitude and speed (about 900 kilometers per hour), an aircraft stays in the hitting area of one launcher for four to six minutes only.
I can't imagine how untrained personnel could lock onto a target and hit it. It is known that most of the rebels are workers - miners, metal workers, etc. They are unlikely to have the necessary skills to manage a complex weapons system requiring special education and training.
At the same time, we are aware that Ukrainian military personnel do have the required skills. In 2001, Ukraine had the sad experience of shooting down a civilian aircraft by mistake. Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 from Israel to Russia was shot down over the Black Sea by a Ukrainian ground-to-air missile on October 4 of that year.
Furthermore, Ukrainian air defense experts may have been directly involved in shooting at Russian military aircraft in the skies over Georgia in August 2008. The Ukraine government of the time supported Georgia in its brief war with Russia that month. That decision came under sharp, critical review in Ukraine afterward.
We know that Russian satellite images show a Ukrainian Buk system positioned near the MH17 crash site, and Ukraine officials did not refute that.
In my opinion, a key question to ask about the plane disaster is who stands to gain by it? It is obvious that the crash brought huge benefits to one side of the conflict - the Ukrainian side. It is seeking international support to reverse an unfavorable military situation in the Donbas region of southeast Ukraine. Let us recall that the United States was able to persuade its European allies to introduce new sanctions against Russia only after the disaster occurred.
All this said, I do not wish to draw premature conclusions. I repeat, once again, we must wait for the outcome of the international investigation and resist the pressure to jump to hasty or biased conclusions.
Selected comments (from M of A - Ukraine Europe Stagnates, Russia Growns)
@ bevin 26
I find nothing significant about an article written by an aviation safety "expert" that advises the reader to be patient and wait for the outcome of an investigation done by other experts. Really?
That is precisely the wrong thing to do. At the end of every false flag operation is an official commission or investigative body packed with top drawer experts. Their job is to cherry pick the data and knowingly accept false testimony in order to fit a predetermined outcome while hiding or destroying evidence and testimony to the contrary. They put lipstick on the pig. The Dutch Safety Board has so much lipstick that contrary to regulations they're making the world wait a few weeks longer while they decorate the pig.
The very pressure that this expert writer advises against has forced the powers that be to back off from their lies and grow strangely quiet. This pressure makes it hard for the Dutch Safety Board "experts" to conclude that all evidence points to a smokeless BUK missile. Will they have the nerve to look the world in the eye and say so?
Almost 300 people on MH17 were murdered. If we wait patiently for the experts then the truth also will be murdered.
Posted by: SingingSam | Aug 15, 2014 12:39:08 AM | 43
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Demian | Aug 14, 2014 6:30:52 PM | 23
@Demian #21:
Some more pure speculation. Part of the deal may be that Russia and Malaysia will not come forward with information about who really shot down MH17. Russia may have used that to in effect blackmail the Empire into giving up the DPR and LPR. (The DPR and LPR are no good to Kiev anyway, since unless there is a complete ethic cleansing, the citizens of the DPR and LPR are always going to hate Ukraine.)
As I said before, the MH17 false flag op was so crude that I am not sure that the CIA was in on it. My sense is that the plan was to shoot down MH17 with a Buk missile, but the Ukes chickened out at the last minute and used an SU-25 jet instead. But using a jet made it impossible to pin the blame on the rebels, which is why the op went south. (I believe that Noirette has made the same suggestion.)
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○ Transcript Briefing Session Before Security Commissions Dutch parliament - August 11, 2014 [Dutch - doc]
○ Presentation Police Commissioner Bouman - satellite photo's position major sections of Boeing 777 fusilage [quite interesting]
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Sorry, but "mad man" Rutte has changed his tune, doesn't talk about 'criminal' Putin much. Dutch PM Mark Rutte, loved by all neocon posturing nations around the globe since the MH-17 crash, has a new slogan to prove his determination:
"We are stopping now, but are not stopping."
From today's press release, Prime Minister Mark Rutte:
No mention of the agreement signed in Kiev by Timmermans and Bishop with Podhorenko and Yats. Nothing about the unanimous U.N. Security Council Resolution to expediate the MH-17 crash investigation.
"Graag wil ik hier mijn dank uitspreken aan de Australische experts, die samen met Nederlandse en Maleisische collega's en de OVSE [OSCE SMM Mission report Aug. 6 - last day international recovery mission ... silence] zulk zwaar werk in zulke moeilijke omstandigheden hebben verricht. Hetzelfde geldt voor de Australiërs die ook vandaag weer in Hilversum aan het werk zijn om de slachtoffers te identificeren.
Ik zei het eerder: we stoppen nu, maar we stoppen niet. Premier Abbott en ik delen de ambitie om terug te keren naar de crashsite, zodra er weer zicht is dat we onder veilige omstandigheden daar dit belangrijke werk kunnen doen."
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by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 at 04:00:46 PM EST
The Kiev junta has changed its tune, too (4.00 / 3)The official MH17 narrative still prevails: the "pro-Russian rebels" shot down Malaysian airlines MH17 with a Buk missile system provided by Russia.by Demian on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 03:08:13 AM ESTIn a new and rather unusual twist, however, according to the Kiev regime, the Donetsk militia did not intend to shoot down Malaysian airlines MH17. What the "pro-Russian rebels" were aiming at was a Russian Aeroflot passenger plane.
The MH17 was shot down "by mistake" according to an official statement by the head of Ukraine's Secret Service, Valentyn Nalyvaichenko (Ukraine News Service, August 7, 2014)
[ Parent ]=== Re: The Kiev junta has changed its tune, too (4.00 / 3)
This new Kiev narrative isn't going to fly -- it begs very easy questions:
In its authoritative report, the British news tabloid fails to beg the important question: why on earth would pro-Russian rebels who are at war with the Kiev regime shoot down a Russian passenger plane AFL-2074 allegedly with a view to harnessing Russia's support?What's more, according to SBU Chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko's statement, Moscow was helping the pro-Russian rebels in their alleged false flag op to shoot down Russia's Aeroflot plane by providing them with a Buk missile system, which had been discretely smuggled across the border to the Donesk region of Eastern Ukraine. The Aeroflot plane was slated to be "shot down over territory controlled by Ukrainian government troops":
...Also smacks of desperation on the part of the Kiev.
by Marie2 on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]===Re: The Kiev junta has changed its tune, too (none / 0)
Thanks for the many great contributions on this topic!
An old junta recept, providing cover for one's narrative. If plan A fails, we have plan B, etc.
Digging their own hole steadfast deeper. Watching closely as coming hours pass ...I read that article but lost the source. Minor edit to your recent post @MoA:
"Western response to MH17 inherhis blog home."Doesn't matter a 51/49 chance it would have been the other way around. :-)
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boomantribune.com
EXPERTS are looking at the possibility that Malaysia flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from a Sukhoi Su-25 fighter. Sources also believe that as the crippled jetliner spiralled out of control, the Su-25 finished it off with its 30mm cannon. This they say, would explain the different fragmentation patterns on the airliner's fuselage. [Issue Wednesday August 6, 2014]
=== Germany Handelsblatt Detente of Ostpolitik (4.00 / 2)
The West on the wrong pathThe Tagesspiegel: "Enough talk!" The FAZ: "Show strength". The Süddeutsche Zeitung: "Now or never." The Spiegel calls for an "End to cowardice": "Putin's web of lies, propaganda, and deception has been exposed. The wreckage of MH 17 is also the result of a crashed diplomacy."
Western politics and German media agree. Every reflexive string of accusations results in the same outcome: in no time allegations and counter-allegations become so entangled that the facts become almost completely obscured.
Who deceived who first?
Did it all start with the Russian invasion of the Crimean or did the West first promote the destabilization of the Ukraine? Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East? Or did maybe two world-powers meet at the same door in the middle of the night, driven by very similar intentions towards a defenseless third that now pays for the resulting quagmire with the first phases of a civil war?
...
But every act requires context. And the German context is that we are a society on probation which may not act as if violations of international law started with the events in the Crimean.Germany has waged war against its eastern neighbor twice in the past 100 years. The German soul, which we generally claim to be on the romantic side, showed its cruel side.
Of course, we who came later can continue to proclaim our outrage against the ruthless Putin and appeal to international law against him, but the way things are this outrage should come with a slight blush of embarrassment. Or to use the words of Willy Brandt: "Claims to absolutes threaten man."
In the end, even the men who had succumbed to war fever in 1914 had to realize this. After the end of the war, the penitent issued a second call, this time to understanding between nations: "The civilized world became a war camp and battle field. It is time that a great tide of love replaces the devastating wave of hatred."
We should try to avoid the detour via the battle fields in the 21st century. History does not have to repeat itself. Maybe we can find a shortcut.
===Australians/Dutch Buying Time!! (4.00 / 3)
I listened to the presentation of the Recovery Mission MH-17 leaders before the parliamentary commission. I was astonished how poorly informed nearly all members of Dutch parliament were. Some questions were illiterate in stupidity and there was no focus on essentials during the brief session that was televised.
Many thanks to all involved and the preparations made before traveling to Kharkiv. Indeed, much of the search had been completed by locals under proper leadership of a medical team and rescuers belonging to first responders of fire stations. As I have written before, some 800 volunteers were in place. The Dutch had little or no knowledge before arriving in Kharkiv. It took the team 14 days before arrival at the MH-17 wreckage. They stayed a mere 6 days and spend just 20 hours on the search. The advancing Ukrainian army [and mercenaries paid by oligarchs] made travel to Grabove quite difficult until the Dutch called it quits.
Special appreciation for the OSCE SMM mission in the district of Donetsk! They did the mediation with the separatists of Donetsk.
There was some fingerpointing towards the Kiev junta for not following through on the agreement signed with FM Timmermans and Julie Jacobs of Australia. No serious repurcussions except an open question how many weeks of delay this would cause before the team can return to the crash site! No one in the chamber referred to the UN Security Council resolution calling for all parties involved to cease hostilities in the region of the MH-17 crash site!
Only a single member, Harry van Bommel (SP), had sufficient knowledge of the dossier to ask the pertinent questions. Well done!
The first mission is the recovery and identification team which was heard today by the commission.
The second mission is by the Dutch Safety Board (OvV) to determine the cause of the crash. They were in Kharkiv but did NOT visit the site, therefore no evidence gathering!
The third investigation is an international criminal investigation led by prosecutors under coordination of Eurojust, the European version of the Justice Department. This team will attempt to determine a person, oersons, group or country responsible for downing Malasia flight MH-17.
One of the most renowned lawyers Geert-Jan Knoops, already says it will be impossible to determine in court who is responsible. Evidence lying out in the field for weeks is by definition contaminated in the court of law. Knoops was involved in the case of the Lockerbie crash tried in Scottish Court in Zeist, The Netherlands. Jan. 31, 2001: Lockerbie Verdict
===Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 2)
The missiles used by Su-25 jets (actually, I believe they are ground support planes, not fighters) are heat seeking, which means that they detonate near engines.
Thus, if an Su-25 downed MH17, at least one of its engines should be heavily damaged.
Not only haven't I seen any pictures of the engines (which are the most rugged parts of a jet), I haven't even seen anyone mention looking for them, much less finding them.
===Re: Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 2)
There are of pictures on the internet of the engines. One from The Guardian. They were engulfed in flames near or when they landed. (The crazies are claiming that they aren't Boeing 777 engines; but they also claim that Sandy Hook massacre and the Boston Marathon bombing were fake and there were no dead children or injured people.)
by Marie2 on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 06:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]===Re: Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 2)
Thanks. That one seems only to have been damaged by ground impact. I don't see any damage from shrapnel. I believe that if MH17 was shot down by a jet firing a missile (and possibly then firing at the ceckpit with machine guns), one of the engines should show shrapnel damage.
This is simply a matter of curiosity on my part, since the case for a jet shooting down MH17 is alrleady pretty strong
(I had seen that photo btw. I just forgot, since I wasn't interested in the engines at the time.)
by Demian on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 06:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]===Re: Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 3)
I have to defer totally to experts on this. Would guess that locals and/or separatists took a lot of photos and passed them on to authorities, including those in Russia, and would expect the investigators that made their way to the site, inspected the engines.
by Marie2 on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 10:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]===Re: Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 2)
I assume you saw the Akkermans photos, but just in case
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/with/14705660266
Viva Obama
===Re: Has anyone seen photos of the engines? (4.00 / 4)
Thanks. No, I hadn't seen them. They're pretty depressing, even though there are no bodies.
The only thing I get out of them is that, as has already been observed, the only place you see damage from weapons fire is in the cockpit. Unfortunately, there seems to be no picture of any engines.
As Marie2 says, we will have to wait for some kind of report from experts. The whole matter is very delicate. Western countries will no doubt want to falsify the official report, but it is not clear that Malaysia is going to go along with that, and it was a Malaysian plane, so Malaysia has some say in the matter.
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13 August 2014 | theguardian.com
Russia slams Australia for having 'oversized ambitions' and making 'absurd and irresponsible' statements
On Wednesday night, the Russian foreign ministry accused the Australian government of making absurd and irresponsible statements.
Russia said comments from Australian leaders apportioning blame to Russia for supporting the separatists showed the government had "completely lost an adequate picture of the developments in Ukraine and around it", the Russian news agency ITAr-Tass said.
Artem Rubtsov, 14 August 2014 2:53amKiev has said multiple times (about ones per week) that Russia would attack Ukraine. NATO has said multiple times that risk of the invasion is very high Australia, Poland, other countries said the same. And yet Russia is not attacking.
Does that mean that all those guys BSing the world or their intelligence is completely useless? Or maybe they don't know anything and it scares them, so they keep repeating this just in case.
greatwhitehunter -> Artem Rubtsov, 14 August 2014
even the speaker of the ukraine Parliament bemoaned the fact that their military had consistently lied to the parliament regarding impending russian invasions. Anyone one who understands ukraine will realize that truth is not an essential part of the fabric of their society yet for some reasons western governments believe them, go figure.
even the western news media give little credibility to official statements from the ukraine goverment.
jakartamoscow -> Artem Rubtsov, 14 August 2014 12:35pm
In their minds, Western leaders are already at war with Russia. But down on the physical level, their bodies aren't quite adjusting yet as to how to react to total paranoia.
Of course it's normal for Kiev, or Poland and Lithuania, to fear a Russian invasion. The people of Eastern Ukraine would actually welcome one, though not as anonymous as did the Crimeans, who were much more organised. But its the Western leaders who should adopt a firm position. If they share the same fear as Kiev, Poland, etc, then they should commit more in terms of military defence and a unified diplomacy. If they're not that paranoid then they should at least calm the nervous Kiev leadership before criticising Putin or Russia. At the moment, Putin is treating them like pet monkeys, throwing peanuts and showing scary faces. I can no longer say that Russia or Putin is acting mature, but I can't argue against Russia's ability to navigate a world that hates her to the bone.
moveonover, 14 August 2014 2:57amThe Russians said the "Australian government had lost it's grip on reality."
Tell us something we don't know Russia.
Verbum -> moveonover, 14 August 2014 5:16am
The Russians said the "Australian government had lost it's grip on reality."
That's the world's worst kept secret.
JimB123 -> moveonover, 14 August 2014 5:36am
It didn't have such a grip in the lead-up to the election and hasn't demonstrated such a grip since.
NormVan -> moveonover, 14 August 2014 6:59am
I think the work to descibe this is: Hubris (Greek ὕβρις), means extreme pride or self-confidence. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.
rotsock, 14 August 2014 3:05am
"Houston said the initial work by the Ukrainian emergency services was more thorough than the humanitarian mission had anticipated, and it seems most of the remains had been discovered"
So, will Abbott visit Ukraine to thank those responsible and apologise for his defamatory lies? Will Bishop? Fat chance.
Commentariat, 14 August 2014 3:07am
Why doesn't President Obama release the spy satellite imagery from that day and tell us once and for all who shot down MH17..?
The Russians have shown satellite pictures of a Ukrainian fighter jet, shadowing the airliner before it came down and even the Malaysians say some of the wreckage shows gun fire damage in the cockpit area.
Where is the Black Box evidence now? Surely that should be released.
Before Australia and NATO stop the aid convoy to east Ukrainian civilians, let's make sure we are not punishing the wrong Ukrainians at least.
JJRichardson Commentariat, 14 August 2014 3:34am
" even the Malaysians say some of the wreckage shows gun fire damage in the cockpit area."
That is not true, there was an article in the New Straits Times that reports the theories promulgated by Robert Parry and Peter Haisenko.There is no more reason to believe these theories than the theories put forward by the US.
pinniped Commentariat, 14 August 2014 3:37amSpy satellites won't necessarily have any good images nor will they necessarily help much. Perhaps you're thinking of the magical devices from the movies.
As for the flight recorders, there's a lot of work to do such as transcribing what's on the voice recorder and copying and analyzing what's on the instrument flight recorder. It will be quite a few more months before we hear anything from the investigators. There's no cover-up, it just takes the experts a long time to do their work and check it.
Phil Atkinson pinniped, 14 August 2014 3:43am
"There's no cover-up, it just takes the experts a long time to do their work and check it."
Better tell that to John Kerry and all the others apportioning blame before any results are in. Or perhaps the results are already in and the US doesn't want them released?
Wonder why they've gone so quiet about MH17 lately...?
rotsock pinniped, 14 August 2014 5:39am
I'm sceptical that it takes a long time to analyse the recorder data, most of which would be of no interest. Why would it, it can't be that hard to interpret the last minute or two of what's recorded? It might just be convenient for the results to be delayed as long as possible, until the controversy fades.
Why are the Haisenko theories and photos not headline news? Very convenient that a view that contradicts the ill-informed rants of Abbott and Bishop is getting no exposure.
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polemika.com.ua
In the framework of the quadripartite agreement, signed on August 8, Ukraine, Netherlands, Belgium and Australia, information about the investigation of the crash Malaysian Boeing 777" will be kept private. This was announced today at a briefing in Kyiv of the speaker of the Prosecutor General Yuri Boychenko.
According to him, the expertise of parts of the liner and other investigative actions will continue but their results will be published only upon completion of the investigation and only with the consent of all the parties who have signed a corresponding agreement.
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The Vineyard of the Saker
... ... ...
Did you notice that MH17 is completely out of the news? We were promised voice and data recorder analyses, we were told that experts would be visiting the area and investigating the scene. We were told that various kind of proofs of this and that will be provided. And then *nothing*. Silence.
Needless to say, except for the TV-watching zombies who get their news from the idiot-tube, everybody knows what really happened. First, as I said it many times here, the USA and Russia know for sure, and there is a good chance that so do France and Switzerland. Then, there are a lot more people who don't have the proof of what happened, but who also know. And I bet you that many reporters and journalists in Kiev also know. As for the Internet/blogosphere, while there are some disagreements over what exactly happened, nobody that I am aware of seriously believes that the Resistance did it. So that leaves only one option: the Ukies did it.
So why not finally say so?
Because the AngloZionists are buying as much time to the junta as possible.
They *know* that there is no stopping this story, but they also know that unless and until the true account of what happened to MH17 makes it into the MSM it might as well never have happened. But the clock is running out. If we can fully expect the Dutch and the British to do and say whatever Uncle Sam tells them, I would not at all be so sure about the Malaysians. For one thing Malaysia is hardly a pro-US country, especially in its public opinion, and, second, the Malaysians will inevitably wonder why their people were chosen as the sacrificial lambs in this US-run false flag operation.
This is also, I believe, the reason the Russians just said the very minimum to disprove the ridiculous version which Washington and Kiev proclaimed only hours after MH17 was shot: they know that if they say something it will be dismissed as "propaganda", but if the Malaysians do, then it is going to be awfully hard to dismiss them. I also believe that the Russians have leaked whatever is needed to the Malaysians to make sure that the latter are not duped by the AngloZionists.
My hope and belief is that in the not too distant future the Malaysians will blow the cover on the AngloZionist fairytale and that they will officially accuse the junta of that mass murder. At which point, Uncle Sam and his European minions will simply say that "they have come to different conclusions" and use the MSM to bury it all in the collective memory hole. That, at least, is the plan. Whether the Empire will succeed in covering it all up in anybody's guess.
Anonymous, 13 August, 2014 16:27
The SBU tries to cover its traces by deleting pictures of the BUK 312 from its website.
before:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140721205539/http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=129099&cat_id=39574
after:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140728045816/http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=129099&cat_id=39574
This is a reaction to the debunking of BUK 312:
"But something particularly interesting is that rather than coming from Russia as Ukraine is claiming, buk number 312 appears to be a Ukrainian buk. The evidence for that is in the video below, uploaded
5th March of this year, where we can see a number of Ukrainian buks all lined up in a place called Horlika (or Gorlovka). The third buk in the line is number 312."http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/07/21/the-mh17-investigation-and-buk-312/
another video:
Marcus, 13 August, 2014 16:30
Saker:
"They *know* that there is no stopping this story, but they also know that unless and until the true account of what happened to MH17 makes it into the MSM it might as well never have happened."
Sure they can stop that story. At least in the minds of the vast majority of those whose opinion matters to them i.e. the home audiences in countries of significance.
I'd much rather bet against the combined Nato military forces than against the combined western mainstream media. The latter is WAY more powerful.
Anonymous
I seem to have given the wrong link for the story about the MH17 investigation being "classified" info.
This is the correct link, followed by automatic translation
http://strategia-22.livejournal.com/39522.html?nojs=1
The results of the investigation the death of a Boeing 777 classified.
Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium on August 8 signed an agreement not to disclose information obtained in the course of the investigation.
As part of the 4-party agreement signed on August 8 between Ukraine, the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia, information
the progress and results of the investigation catastrophe Malaysian "Boeing-777" will not be disclosed.
As the correspondent UNIAN correspondent, August 10 at a briefing in Kiev said Speaker prosecutor Yuri Boychenko. according to him
said that during the investigations are ongoing examination and other investigative actions - the results will be announced on
completion of the investigation, and only if, the consensus agreement of all the parties who signed the corresponding agreement.
14056
These deaths flight MH17 in the Donetsk region. will be published in obtaining the consent of all the parties that are involved in
investigation. Any of the signatory countries have the right to veto the publication of results of the investigation without explanation. In the GPU pointed out that at the moment investigations are ongoing, conducted the examination. Only after the conclusion of this agreement the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine ratified the agreement on sending Malaysian personnel to investigate the disaster of the passenger liner "Malaysian Airlines" in the Donetsk region.
International experts admit that to survey the wreck site of the Malaysian Boeing-777 will take a few weeks.
The second phase of the search for the remains of the victims of flight MH17 will be discussed next week.
Thus, we can safely assume - results of the investigation actually classified and final report of the expert or will not be made public never (precedent already exists), or only a few years later, when the political causes of the accident will lose its relevance.
The conclusion is simple - the interim results of the investigation directly prove innocence Russia and / or the DNR to the death of a Malaysian ship and that it does not suit the signatory countries. Of course this does not apply to ordinary citizens or relatives of the victims, and the ruling political elites of these countries.
P.S. The only country which refused (and categorically) to sign the agreement - Malaziyya. But it is in today.13 August, 2014 17:49
Jonny James
It looks like the Malaysians already know the Ukies shot down their plane. This article from Malaysian newspaper, (in English).
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925
and this article claims Malaysians know Ukies did it as well.
Anonymous
"They *know* that there is no stopping this story, but they also know that unless and until the true account of what happened to MH17 makes it into the MSM it might as well never have happened."
I don't think the ZPC/NWO want the cause of the downing resolved now. They got what they wanted from it already. In fact, the way they do these false flags, it is the initial propaganda that is what they are after. It's all image and zero substance now. What is revealed after of these "events", their total control of the msm allows them the ability to ignore or discredit any harmful facts and their captive audiences remain uninformed. Once they figure the propaganda value has fallen enough, they create a new propaganda incident to hype.
The ZPC has psychologically dumbed enough people in the zionised west to know their attention spans and zombification keeps their interest level and attention span low enough they wont go beyond the propaganda, and will retain the psychological "message" as they are given their next propaganda feeding (this melding of psychology, marketing and entertainment is where the zionists are extremely important to the ZPC/NWO, it is the foundation of that freakshow's ability to control populations).
The propaganda is all pervasive and the time between "events" keeps the zombies constantly distracted with new rubbish. The ZPC no longer cares what happens about the "event" once its propaganda value drops. It is simply replaced with a new event because they know they have such control over enough of the population now, they don't have to worry about facts any more, at all. All they need to worry about is presenting the right, constantly changing emotional and psychological triggers.
Anonymous, 13 August, 2014 18:30
Washington Chokes Truth With Lies - Paul Craig Roberts:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/08/13/washington-chokes-truth-lies-paul-craig-roberts/
"Washington's propaganda is working. Polls reveal that a majority of Americans, who should be awake by now after being lied to about Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Syria, and Iran, have again, in their infinite gullibility, fallen victim to the propaganda and regard Russia as a threat.
Among the misinformed and propagandized American population, the question of the day is: "How are we going to stop the Russians?" Thus has the corrupt and deceitful Obama regime again prepared Americans for war."
N-V
Anonymous, 13 August, 2014 18:33
It occurs why MH17 has disappeared from view that when either the flight voice recorder or the transcript from Air Traffic Control is released (or alleged proof thereof), then Russia can release their recordings of the same in parallel with other surveillance from their records to substantiate.
Sort of a checkmate to disinformation and propaganda which would otherwise flood the information channels. Time will not be kind to those withholding the contents of those black boxes or ATC recordings; unexplained absence of normal procedures will tend to unravel artificial narratives, lies don't stretch well.
Anonymous
"MH17 - gone missing again...Silence."
Speaking of which, I see no inclusion of this important information in the post:
Hacked account assistant Kolomoisky on Facebook - Boeing hit by a junta! (UPDATED 13:30 11 August)
voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/3590-vzloman-akkaunt-pomoshnika-kolomoyskogo-na-facebook.html
English:
http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/analytics/2793-kolomoyskiy-assistants-facebook-account-hacked-the-boeing-downed-by-junta.html
As long as the info remains in the comments on sites, it wont be seen by many. getting the info onto English (and other European) language sites in articles and posts will inform many more people, who would never see it otherwise.
вот так
Larchmonter445, 13 August, 2014 18:59
BOT TAK
Absolutely spot on!
First Law of Propaganda: he who says it first is right.
The event was meant to reposition their troops and allow some escape from the Southern Boiler.
It worked and it worked ten-fold to blame Putin and Russia and the Militia.
One of the great travesties of our lifetime.
And it only cost 298 lives. Cheap.
Think of their other gambits around the globe. Thousands, tens of thousands, millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions killed in the last hundred years of divine rule by the godless gods.
298 is heuristically negligible for Elites' value system. Kiev has set 8 million as their announced goal (Russians only, thank you, Yulia).
The Masters of our Universe are itching to eradicate billions of humans in their grand plan.
They will blame that on real little green men from outer space, spawned by Putin in his space lab, of course.
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Aug 13, 2014 | Oriental Review
ORIENTAL REVIEW publishes an Open Letter to President Putin by Dutch Professor Cees J. Hamelink on the furious 3-weeks-long international media campaign blaming Russia in the tragedy of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Today when the perpetrators are clearly determined (a Ukrainian air wing supported by air-defence on the ground, as it was recently acknowledged by the mainstream ruling party-affiliated press in Malaysia), the governments of Netherlands, UK and Ukraine are trying to conceal the results of investigation. So now it is critically important not to let them silence the issue. We should demand a transparent investigation and bring the perpetrators (Western-backed criminal regime in Kiev) to justice.The text was originally published at the web-site of Dutch NGO "Reverse".
Dear Mr. President Putin,
Please accept our apologies on behalf of a great many people here in the Netherlands for our Government and our Media. The facts concerning MH17 are twisted to defame you and your country.
We are powerless onlookers, as we witness how the Western Nations, led by the United States, accuse Russia of crimes they commit themselves more than anybody else. We reject the double standards that are used for Russia and the West. In our societies, sufficient evidence is required for a conviction. The way you and your Nation are convicted for 'crimes' without evidence, is ruthless and despicable.
You have saved us from a conflict in Syria that could have escalated into a World War. The mass killing of innocent Syrian civilians through gassing by 'Al-Qaeda' terrorists, trained and armed by the US and paid for by Saudi Arabia, was blamed on Assad. In doing so, the West hoped public opinion would turn against Assad, paving the way for an attack on Syria.
Not long after this, Western forces have built up, trained and armed an 'opposition' in the Ukraine, to prepare a coup against the legitimate Government in Kiev. The putschists taking over were quickly recognized by Western Governments. They were provided with loans from our tax money to prop their new Government up.
The people of the Crimea did not agree with this and showed this with peaceful demonstrations. Anonymous snipers and violence by Ukrainian troops turned these demonstrations into demands for independence from Kiev. Whether you support these separatist movements is immaterial, considering the blatant Imperialism of the West. Russia is wrongly accused, without evidence or investigation, of delivering the weapons systems that allegedly brought down #MH17. For this reason Western Governments claim they have a right to economically pressure Russia.
We, citizens of the West, who see the lies and machinations of our Governments, wish to offer you our apologies for what is done in our name.
It's unfortunately true, that our media have lost all independence and are just mouthpieces for the Powers that Be. Because of this, Western people tend to have a warped view of reality and are unable to hold their politicians to account.
Our hopes are focused on your wisdom. We want Peace. We see that Western Governments do not serve the people but are working towards a New World Order. The destruction of sovereign nations and the killing of millions of innocent people is, seemingly, a price worth paying for them, to achieve this goal.
We, the people of the Netherlands, want Peace and Justice, also for and with Russia.
We hope to make clear that the Dutch Government speaks for itself only. We pray our efforts will help to diffuse the rising tensions between our Nations.
Sincerely,
Professor Cees Hamelink***
Dr. Cees J. Hamelink is Emeritus Professor of International Communication at the University of Amsterdam. He is currently Professor for Management of Information and Knowledge at the University of Aruba, Professor of Human Rights and Public Health at the Vrije Universiteit of Amsterdam, and Honorary Professor of the University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia. He is also the editor-in-chief of the International Communication Gazette and Honorary president of the International Association for Media and Communication Research. He is author of 17 monographs on communication and culture.
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james says: , August 10, 2014 at 8:44 pmi am coming to conclude we will probably never find out the cause of the mh17 accident.. it points in the opposite direction to the narrative the msm has pointed everyone in.marknesop, August 10, 2014 at 9:58 pmAnd the west's way, when something like that happens, is to say the results were inconclusive and continue to hint that it was exactly as they said all along, but they just can't completely prove it. But the delay in releasing the cockpit recordings and the reluctance to demand the ATC records are damning – if Russia had these things they would be screaming for them to be released, if you have nothing to hide, show the world. Something has gone very, very wrong and their continued sitting on it is only making people more suspicious.Foppe, August 11, 2014 at 12:27 amYeah, if the sanctions they've issued and speeches they've given are any indication, I doubt that there is a way for them to acknowledge that the UA did it - and it indeed does look like it. So I have little hope for the investigation…marknesop, August 11, 2014 at 7:53 amHey, Jan; good to see you back; where've you been?foppe, August 11, 2014 at 8:14 amOh, just busy doing 20 things at once; also have a job (as a cogwheel :p) that forces me to be away from PC for a decent part of the day, so that leaves less time for idle browsing and visiting comment threads:)foppe, August 11, 2014 at 8:20 amI generally do find time to read your posts; just not to follow the frightening 800-comment long thread beneath them.a norwegian down under , August 10, 2014 at 10:37 pmThe western plan is obivously to stall any investigation results for a few weeks more, in the hope that the ukrainan army can overwhelm the rebels in the mean time. When the main military actions are finished it will matter much less what the investigators release. Even if it can't be buried completely it will be treated as a a non issue.yalensis, August 11, 2014 at 2:01 am
Maybe the reason many in the ukrainian government areheading for the exit has to to with who will be designated the scapegoat. As soon as it it has been shown that it was the ukraininan resposibility someone will have to be "the bad guy" and get the full blame alone. Yats, Poroshenko or someone else will be the sole villain, and no one else knew anything.Plus, Ukes and Americans have made sure, to bring the current frenzied "storm" of fighting right into the wreckage zone. They'll make sure to shoot up or disperse the wreckage, so that it can't be used as evidence.marknesop, August 11, 2014 at 11:04 am
Fortunately, some close-up photos were taken when the wreckage was still relatively pristine. Those photos can be used later, in an international investigation.The biggest use for these photos, potentially and only if they were taken early enough, will be to show investigators which holes were the result of whatever brought down the plane, and which were the result of later damage in the fighting. Mind you, that would depend on integrity, which is in short supply these days. There seems little political will to proceed with the investigation now that it appears likely the results will not implicate Russia or the rebels, just like the appetite for an investigation of the Maidan snipers evaporated as soon as it was clear it might lead investigators in embarrassing directions.Ronald Thomas West, August 11, 2014 at 4:04 amBut photos will not likely be enough on their own – investigators will have to examine the wreckage to determine if a 30mm cannon was likely involved, and to test for residue at the puncture points to see if they can identify the ammunition type. But it seemed to me in the pictures that only a couple of areas were damaged by a projectile – the greastest part of the wreckage looked like it simply resulted from the plane being torn apart by explosive decompression.
Yeah, what a yellow rag (The Moscow Times.) BTW, there is a 'security expert' blog at:Ronald Thomas West, August 11, 2014 at 4:10 amhttp://wordpress.com/read/blog/id/4604699/
Where you can find the seed of disinformation these types of cretin feed on to produce their stories
Meanwhile, it can't hurt to look at how it is the armaments industry has become so intertwined with the western democracies economic engines, there could be economic collapse if the armaments production were to ever be severely curtailed (the elephant in the living room no one will talk about) .. so in a perverse sense, what is happening makes sense (if not sanity)Southerncross, August 11, 2014 at 4:35 amhttp://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/05/26/counterfeit-coin/
^ Not the brightest mindset in the age of nukes-
Permanent war as a business strategy…Southerncross, August 11, 2014 at 4:38 amHow serious are the JSOC types with their militant evangelism and their Templar gangsigns? Do they really believe in that guff or is it just ideological warpaint?
Never mind, the 'NATO and Gladio' article makes it pretty clear they do believe the crap they spew.marknesop, August 11, 2014 at 10:26 amThat is a brilliant – if profoundly disturbing and at times depressing – piece. You have a real gift for writing; crisp, authoritative and compelling.
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"In order to analyse the information... it's not essential to remain in Ukraine," Van der Weegen told AFP, saying the team will now be based in The Hague.
Ukranian air crash experts, who are taking part in the international probe, had been at the crash site shortly after the crash, before the Dutch were tasked with leading the investigation, Van der Weegen said.
The deteriorating security situation prevented crash investigators under the OVV's leadership from reaching the remote site, although Dutch, Australian and Malaysian forensic experts did reach the area to look for body parts and personal belongings.
"Since we've taken over the investigation, there has been no new opportunity to get to the crash site," Van der Weegen said.
Ukranian air crash experts, who are taking part in the international probe, had been at the crash site shortly after the crash, before the Dutch were tasked with leading the investigation, Van der Weegen said.
The deteriorating security situation prevented crash investigators under the OVV's leadership from reaching the remote site, although Dutch, Australian and Malaysian forensic experts did reach the area to look for body parts and personal belongings.
"Since we've taken over the investigation, there has been no new opportunity to get to the crash site," Van der Weegen said.
The OVV said in a statement that it was only investigating what brought down flight MH17, not who was responsible
... ... ...
Van der Weegen said enough sources were available including cockpit voice recorders, flight data recorders (black boxes), radar details and information from air traffic controllers.
"We have enough information (for a preliminary report), but we would like to return to the crash site to verify some of our findings and get additional information," he said. -AFP
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- Tony Abbott calls for justice for MH17 victims during trip to Netherlands
Tony Abbott at Rotterdam 11 Aug 2014: Australian leader offers condolences to Dutch and will hold talks on finishing the investigation and ensuring 'guilty are punished'
413 comments- MH17: Tony Abbott to visit Netherlands to meet with Dutch prime minister
Tony Abbott talks during a national memorial service at St Patrick's Cathedral in Melbourne on Thursday. 9 Aug 2014: Australian prime minister to arrive in the Hague on Monday and will sign condolence book for the Dutch victims of flight MH17
- Australia considers uranium ban as part of sanctions on Russia
9 Aug 2014: Tony Abbott tells Vladimir Putin to keep out of Ukraine, while ministers indicate exports of uranium to Russia may be stopped
1767 comments- Malaysia Airlines shares suspended as state buyout is announced
8 Aug 2014: Beleaguered company to be taken fully into state hands for restructuring in wake of MH370 and MH17 disasters
- Newcastle to hold minute's silence for fans who died on flight MH17
Newcastle fans in New Zealand stand in a minute's silence to remember John Alder and Liam Sweeney 7 Aug 2014: John Alder and Liam Sweeney were on shot down Malaysia Airlines flight on way to watch their team play in New Zealand
- MH17 memorial focuses on supporting families and friends left behind
7 Aug 2014: 'We stand in solidarity with those who are suffering unimaginable loss,' Archbishop Denis Hart tells mourners in Melbourne
28 comments- MH17: Australia's national day of mourning – in pictures
The parents of Australian MH17 victim Fatima Dyczynski 7 Aug 2014: The public, grieving families and dignitaries attend the official memorial for victims of the flight in Melbourne
- MH17: Australia pauses for a national day of mourning
Australians arrive to mourn the loss of all victims of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 at St. Patrick's Cathedral on August 7, 2014 in Melbourne, Australia. 7 Aug 2014: Flags are flying at half mast around the country as an official memorial is held in Melbourne for the victims of flight MH17, attended by grieving families, members of the public, and dignitaries including the prime minister, the governor general, and the opposition leader
73 comments- MH17 crash: search for remains halted as Australia begins day of mourning
7 Aug 2014: Increased fighting between pro-Russian rebels and Ukraine forces Dutch PM to suspend work on the site
- MH17: Dutch prime minister calls halt to search for victims
6 Aug 2014: Mark Rutte praised the effort of the recovery mission but said that it was too dangerous to continue at this time
- MH17 investigators frustrated at limited access due to fighting
A pro-Russian separatist looks on as Australian and Dutch forensic experts continue recovery work at the site of the downed Malaysian airliner MH17 near the village of Rozsypne in the Donetsk region. 5 Aug 2014: Renewed violence between separatists and government forces in Ukraine has limited the ability of officials to carry out mission
- Why the rituals of grief matter
4 Aug 2014: From flowers for cyclists to returning bodies to the families of the MH17 dead, these procedures help people cope with grief, says Katharine Whitehorn
- MH17: memorial service held in Perth for three Australian children killed – video
MH17 Perth Memorial Video (57 sec), 4 Aug 2014: A memorial service for three children and their grandfather who were killed over Ukraine on flight MH17 has been held in Western Australia
- MH17: father remembers 'perfect souls' at memorial for his three children
Mo, Evie and Otis Maslin 4 Aug 2014: Parents Anthony Maslin and Rin Norris give emotional speeches in Perth for three children and their grandfather killed in disaster
- MH17: memorial service held in Perth for three Australian children killed – video
MH17 Perth Memorial Video (57 sec), 4 Aug 2014: A memorial service for three children and their grandfather who were killed over Ukraine on flight MH17 has been held in Western Australia
- MH17: father remembers 'perfect souls' at memorial for his three children
4 Aug 2014: Parents Anthony Maslin and Rin Norris give emotional speeches in Perth for three children and their grandfather killed in disaster
- Ukrainian army closes in on Donetsk as rebel fighters call on Russia for help
ukrainian troops donetsk 3 Aug 2014: Advances by Ukrainian army lead to intense fighting as separatists renew calls for Moscow to send troops
- If it is hard for the west to confront Russia, it can still support Ukraine
3 Aug 2014: Business leader: Moscow would come off worse in any round of sanctions. But offering aid and trade to Kiev might send a stronger message
534 comments- MH17: second day of search reveals more human remains
2 Aug 2014: Mortar fire forces some OSCE investigators to leave a village where debris lies
- MH17: Australian and Dutch police recover human remains at crash site
mh17 australian police 2 Aug 2014: Despite continued fighting between rebels and Ukrainian army, officers spend five hours combing the airliner's wreckage
- MH17 investigators reach crash site two weeks after plane brought down
1 Aug 2014: Convoy arrives in east Ukraine, with officials cordoning off zone as they search for bodies still believed to be missing
- MH17: investigators start recovery despite fighting nearby - video
A Dutch policeman Video (1min 14sec), 1 Aug 2014: International experts start recovery work at the wreckage site of the downed Malaysian airliner in east Ukraine on Friday, despite clashes nearby between government forces and pro-Russian separatists
- A Russian soldier's 'Ukraine selfies' are not evidence, they're war art
Ukrainian tanks near eastern Ukrainian village of Novoselivka Persha 1 Aug 2014: Jonathan Jones: We should not mistake Alexander Sotkin's Instagram images for military intelligence. They simply portray the hapless life of today's Russian soldier
496 comments- Australia says all MH17 bodies should be retrieved from crash site within days
1 Aug 2014: Russia, Ukraine and separatist leaders agree as 14-vehicle convoy heads for MH17 site after successful advance mission.
97 comments
- BA calls for global treaty to track surface-to-air missiles after MH17 crash
1 Aug 2014: Willie Walsh says treaty would create complete inventory of weapons while rejecting calls to deploy anti-missile technology on aircraft.
291 comments
- Fighting near site of downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 leaves 14 dead
Fighting near site of downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 leaves 14 dead 1 Aug 2014: Deaths shatter brief lull across war-torn region as international experts head to wreckage of downed plane
- A century on, the first world war is still being played out
1 Aug 2014: Timothy Garton Ash: From Ukraine to Syria these wars are a legacy of the 1914 clash of empires and the patchwork territories left behind
514 comments- Foreign investigators reach MH17 crash site in Ukraine
31 Jul 2014: Dutch and Australia experts expected to focus initially on retrieving bodies still on site and collecting victims' belongings
- Tony Abbott says airlines should tell passengers about routes over war zones
Qantas plane 31 Jul 2014: However, the prime minister says he would not force Qantas to bypass Iraq
146 comments- MH17: memorial service and national day of mourning set for 7 August
Australian flag at half-mast 31 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott tells of his frustration about lack of success at recovering bodies at wreckage site in Ukraine
- MH17: Bishop reacts to claim rebels are laying landmines near crash site
30 Jul 2014: 'If true, it is utterly despicable,' says foreign minister Julie Bishop, while reports suggest remains of up to 80 bodies are still on site
333 comments- MH17: vast majority of Russians believe Ukraine downed plane, poll finds
Flowers for victims MH17 at Schiphol airport 30 Jul 2014: Independent survey discovers 82% of Russians blame Kiev for downing Malaysia Airlines aircraft with loss of 298 lives
- West is ready to ratchet up sanctions against Russia, says Hammond
30 Jul 2014: Foreign secretary makes threat as EU sanctions are imposed on trade with Russia's defence, banking and energy industries
815 comments- Russia takes defiant stance in face of tough EU and US sanctions
30 Jul 2014: Russian officials say focus will shift to domestic market production, but analysts say defence and oil industries will suffer
- Belarus to host Ukraine crisis talks
Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko 30 Jul 2014: President Petro Poroshenko wants discussions with Russia and OSCE to focus on securing access to MH17 crash site
- Qantas should be forced to stop flying over war zones, says union leader
30 Jul 2014: Transport Workers Union national secretary says Abbott government should insist on planes being rerouted
10 comments- MH17: Abbott says Australia is unlikely to follow tougher US and EU sanctions
30 Jul 2014: Prime minister says his priority is recovering bodies from the crash site as the European Union and the US increase sanctions against Russia
- Ukraine rebel chief Igor Bezler threatens to execute interviewer
Igor Bezler, in green fatigues and without his walrus moustache, is at a briefing of policemen in Gorlovka. 29 Jul 2014: Nicknamed the Demon, leader said to be behind downing of MH17 ends rare interview after exploding into a rage and shouting: 'Don't think I won't shoot you'
- Is there a future for Malaysia Airlines after flights MH370 and MH17?
29 Jul 2014: Karl West: Airlines often rebrand after a crash – repainting livery, tweaking logos or even changing their names. But after the loss of two of its planes, it will not be easy for Malaysia Airlines to survive
191 comments
- MH17 victim's father calls on Ukrainian rebels to allow bodies to be repatriated - video
MH17 victim's father calls on Ukrainian rebels to allow bodies to be repatriated - video Video (53 sec), 29 Jul 2014: The father of Liam Sweeney who died when flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine says he wants his son's body returned home
- Ukraine: stronger Russian sanctions sought
Malcolm Rifkind 29 Jul 2014: Malcolm Rifkind condemns 'useless' asset freezes as western leaders push for new EU trade restrictions with key sectors
771 comments
- MH17: Abbott and police frustrated over lack of access to plane crash site
29 Jul 2014: For the second day unarmed Australian and Dutch police contingent forced to turn around due to shelling and gunfire
- Telegraph to continue publishing Russian propaganda supplement
29 Jul 2014: Chinese wall exists between commercial and editorial divisions
32 comments
- Morning Mail: children killed in Gaza; MH17 delays; work for the dole
Palestinians inspect the destroyed wall of Shifa hospital after an Israeli air strike, in Gaza, in the northern Gaza Strip. 28 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
Stronger western sanctions on Russia likely within 48 hoursSchiphol airport 28 Jul 2014: European and US resolve hardens as a result of Putin's suspected role in the shooting down of MH17 over Ukraine
1336 comments
- US will follow EU in likely escalation of Russia sanctions, says White House
28 Jul 2014: Announcement of impending measures follows conference call between Obama and leaders of UK, France, Italy and Germany
804 comments- Flight MH17: international monitors 'sick and tired' of not being able to reach crash site - video
Rebels guard a convoy of OSCE monitors in Shakhtarsk in eastern Ukraine Video (1min 47sec), 28 Jul 2014: International monitors working in eastern Ukraine express their frustration after being denied access to the crash site of flight MH17 for a second day
- New EU sanctions against Russia could be applied within days, No 10 signals
28 Jul 2014: Expectation of further sanctions comes as MoD announces 1,350 British troops are in Poland to take part in Nato exercise
1536 comments- MH17: Dutch and Australian police stranded due to fighting near crash site
28 Jul 2014: Police and forensic teams forced to stop in Shakhtarsk, around 20 miles from the fields where the aircraft was downed
- Flight MH17: victims' remains might not all be found, AFP warns
andrew colvin 28 Jul 2014: Intense fighting between pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian forces has reduced the chance of a successful recovery
252 comments- Satellite images released by US 'show Russian rocket fire into Ukraine'
27 Jul 2014: State Department document appears to show blast marks and craters and US says artillery for separatists has crossed border into Ukraine
2454 comments- The energy-efficient way to punish Putin – and protect the planet
27 Jul 2014: Chris Huhne: For once Europe's greens and securocrats can join forces – by reducing the EU's dependence on imports of Russian gas
359 comments- MH370 families offer to counsel bereaved relatives of MH17 victims
Malaysia Airlines flight attendant MH17 MH370 27 Jul 2014: Remains of those killed not expected to be returned to Malaysia for some time as forensic testing in Netherlands continues
- MH17: how Storyful's 'social sleuthing' helped verify evidence
27 Jul 2014: Ben Cardew: Stories such as the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines plane show the importance of checking Twitter and YouTube content
- MH17: Dutch and Australian investigators postpone mission due to fighting - video
Dutch and Australian policemen in Donetsk Video (1min 41sec), 27 Jul 2014: A Dutch-led international group of 49 investigators have abandoned their plans on Sunday to visit the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17
- MH17: Dutch and Australian experts forced to delay mission due to fighting
A woman takes a photograph of wreckage at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 27 Jul 2014: Netherlands-led group of 49 investigators that will attempt to recover bodies and examine site in eastern Ukraine delayed
- MH17: Australia to send police but no military to crash site
27 Jul 2014: Angus Houston says contingent of armed and unarmed police 'well-placed' to gain access early next week
- Nick Clegg says Russia should not host World Cup 2018
27 Jul 2014: Fifa has ruled out calls for boycott after the shooting down of MH17, insisting the tournament could be 'a force for good'
1168 comments
- Yes, Britain can afford to defy Tsar Vladimir Putin
27 Jul 2014: Nick Cohen: At last there may be justice for Alexander Litvinenko, but it has taken a downed passenger jet to make us see that Russia does not own Britain
742 comments- Britain is open for business, but is it still the right policy?
David Cameron and Boris Johnson 27 Jul 2014: The shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has thrown a spotlight on the influence of Russian oligarchs. Now other areas of laissez-faire policies are being examined, from football clubs to party funding
95 comments
- EU sends advisers to help Ukraine bring law and order to rebel areas
26 Jul 2014: Kremlin accuses Brussels of believing in 'fairytales' as more Russians face travel ban and asset freeze
1706 comments- MH17: Australia and Netherlands wait on Kiev to ratify police missions
Members of the Ukrainian State Emergency Service search for bodies near the crash site. 26 Jul 2014: Push to allow international police teams into wreckage site waits for Ukrainian parliament to give the green light, despite government having no control over the area
- The 20 photographs of the week
Ranger and elephant Gallery (20 pictures), 26 Jul 2014: The aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the conflict in Gaza and Israel, the Commonwealth Games and a flying carpet – the best photography in news, culture, nature and sport from around the world this week
- MH17: Ukraine plans special sitting to approve deal for Australian forces
26 Jul 2014: Ukraine says political turmoil will not keep it from agreeing to Australian police and defence personnel securing the crash site
- MH17: Australia and Netherlands join renewed push to secure crash site
A piece of debris at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. 25 Jul 2014: Australian police sent to London anticipating access to crash site, while locals are allegedly looting items from wreckage
- EU expands Russian oligarch sanctions blacklist in wake of MH17 crash
25 Jul 2014: Measures against Moscow looking likely after shooting down of plane, though deep divisions remain among 28 member states
3439 comments
- Russians in London: 'It's official policy now to hate us'
25 Jul 2014: Those living in capital have noticed backlash since the downing of flight MH17, and feel UK media is blaming all Russians
- Australia sends 100 more police for MH17 mission, as rhetoric softens
Tony Abbott and AFP commissioner Tony Negus in Canberra on Friday. 25 Jul 2014: Police may be armed and backed up by defence personnel, but PM stresses their only brief is to bring bodies home
- MH17: Australia ready to send police to secure crash site
25 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott says 90 police officers are ready to be deployed to eastern Ukraine site where Malaysia Airlines plane was downed
- More journalists detained in Ukraine while reporting on MH17 tragedy
25 Jul 2014: Reporters held by each side in the conflict
42 comments
- To mock President Putin's pride and test his paranoia is folly
US President Barack Obama 25 Jul 2014: Simon Jenkins: The downing of flight MH17 was clearly an accident. This tragedy should not be used as an excuse to punish Russia
1604 comments- MH17: the Netherlands to take responsibility for crash investigation - video
Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans at a joint press conference Video (42 sec), 25 Jul 2014: In a joint press conference the foreign ministers of the Netherlands and Australia announced that the Netherlands would take responsibility for the investigation into the crash of MH17. Australia's foreign minister, Julie Bishop, said the move would allow the investigation to begin 'in earnest'
- MH17 site: Obama and Abbott agree on push for access as more wreckage found
25 Jul 2014: US president promises to work closely with Australia set up 'full, unimpeded and transparent' international investigation
- MH17: Abbott's admirable response should change his prime ministership
bruge haigh tony abbott piece 25 Jul 2014: Bruce Haigh: There is nothing manufactured for electoral advantage in how Tony Abbott is handling the MH17 crisis. He should apply his instinctive compassion to domestic politics, too
517 comments- Morning Mail: Israel strikes Gaza school; Air Algérie flight crashes
A Palestinian man cries after bringing a child, wounded in an Israeli strike on a compound housing a UN school in Beit Hanoun, to a hospital in Beit Lahiya. 24 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
- MH17 crash: sanctions against Russia are illegal, ambassador claims
24 Jul 2014: Moscow insists documents that show Russians armed the separatists who shot down Malaysia Airlines plane are forged
2123 comments
- MH17: victims' relatives can help one another in their bereavement
Bodies Of MH17 Victims Arrive In Eindhoven, Netherlands 24 Jul 2014: Jim Swire: As I learned from losing my daughter in Lockerbie, a support group formed of victims' relatives can be a help in a crisis
41 comments- Remembering the HIV/Aids researchers and activists lost on MH17
Guardian Professional, 24 Jul 2014: As victims remains arrive in the Netherlands, Matthew Jenkin examines why their loss is not just a personal tragedy but a professional one
4 comments
- Fred returns to Shakhtar Donetsk having stayed away after MH17 disaster
24 Jul 2014: Midfielder Fred, who refused to return to Ukraine after the MH17 disaster, has now arrived back with Shakhtar Donetsk
- If you're avoiding air travel after MH17 and more, let statistics be your guide
jumbo jet airplane 24 Jul 2014: James Ball: You've undoubtedly heard that you're more likely to get hit by lightning or die in a car wreck. But is that really true?
555 comments- Australia has federal police ready to enter Ukraine and secure MH17 site
24 Jul 2014: Prime minister has sent 50 officers to London and is prepared to send them to Ukraine
750 comments- MH17 crash site: Australian foreign minister pushes for access
24 Jul 2014: Julie Bishop says negotiations are under way amid reports Australian police and troops may be deployed to area
- MH17: Ukraine separatist commander 'admits' rebels had Buk missile system
Alexander Khodakovsky 23 Jul 2014: Alexander Khodakovsky reportedly told news agency rebels may have received Buk from Russia, but claims he was misquoted
- Morning Mail: MH17 and Gaza latest; Taiwan plane crash
23 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
- MH17: Bodies arrive in Holland as Ukrainian rebel 'admits' missile system – as it happened
23 Jul 2014: Forty coffins aboard two transport planes arrive at Eindhoven air base in the Netherlands as rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets near to crash site
3781 comments- Calls for Tory MP to stand down as trade envoy over Russian business links
Charles Hendry 23 Jul 2014: Cameron's advisor Charles Hendry heads body promoting Russo-British trade as MPs urger stronger sanctions
- Netherlands mourns as bodies of MH17 plane crash victims are flown home
23 Jul 2014: Dutch royals and premier Mark Rutte join relatives at Eindhoven airport to receive 40 coffins arriving from Ukraine disaster site
- Europe must learn to deal with Moscow without US backing
23 Jul 2014: Mary Dejevsky: In the new multipolar world, with the US sometimes on the sidelines, EU unity is essential for its approach to Russia
592 comments- The Guardian view on sanctions against Russia
Vladimir Putin attend in Russian Security Council meeting 23 Jul 2014: Editorial: After the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner, sanctions should be shaped to give President Putin a chance to change his policies
673 comments- Northern Ireland's lessons for Ukraine
Dutch military men carry coffins contain 23 Jul 2014: Letters: If a link can be proved between Putin's government and the MH17 crime, let him be called as an accessory
- Setting the agenda in coverage of Gaza and MH17
23 Jul 2014: Letters: Far more space was devoted to the plane disaster than to Gaza. The BBC does not give a full and fair account of the conflict with Israel
- Graphic content: when photographs of carnage are too upsetting to publish
MH17 passengers' belongings 23 Jul 2014: The onslaught in Gaza and the MH17 crash scene in Ukraine have generated thousands of images, many of which show the gruesome reality of the violence. How does Roger Tooth, the Guardian's head of photography, decide whether or not to use such images?
• Warning: this article includes graphic images some readers may find disturbing183 comments
- Bodies of MH17 victims arrive in the Netherlands on a day of mourning - video
Bodies carried by Australian military as they arrive in Eindhoven Video (1min 05sec), 23 Jul 2014: Dignitaries watch as military transport planes bring bodies of the victims of the MH17 disaster to Eindhoven as the country holds a national day of mourning
- MH17: don't judge Dutch people's grief after this unspeakable crime
23 Jul 2014: Laura Klompenhouwer: Dutch people have been through the mill after 193 of our compatriots were shot down. Silence seems the right response
678 comments- Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets days after downing of MH17
MH17 wreckage 23 Jul 2014: Ukrainian military spokesman says planes were brought down about 16 miles from site of Malaysia Airlines crash
- MH17: Dutch mayor wants Vladimir Putin's daughter Maria deported
23 Jul 2014: Pieter Broertjes called for 29-year-old to be expelled from the Netherlands in wake of plane disaster but later apologised
- Photo highlights of the day
A circus dog performs in costume during a free public show to protest Mexico City's ban on circus animals 23 Jul 2014: The Guardian's photo editors bring you a daily round up from the world of photography - today including the Costa Concordia being towed away, MH17 repatriations, the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow, and a Mexican protesting dog
- Parents of three children killed on MH17 living in 'a hell beyond hell'
Evie, Mo and Otis Maslin 23 Jul 2014: Anthony Maslin and Marite Norris, parents of Mo, Evie and Otis, who were killed along with grandfather Nick Norris, release statement saying their 'pain is intense and relentless'
- Journalists covering the Ukraine crisis suffer intimidation
23 Jul 2014: Detentions and raids make life dangerous for reporters
53 comments
- MH17: relatives in the Netherlands await victims' bodies – video
Floral tributes at Schiphol airport for Malaysia Airlines Flight MH-17 Video (1min 35sec), 23 Jul 2014: Military aircraft prepare to fly the first bodies retrieved from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to Eindhoven
- MH17: Rebels likely shot down plane 'by mistake'
A pro-Russian rebel touches the MH17 wreckage at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, Tuesday, July 22, 2014. 23 Jul 2014: Senior US officials said intelligence supports the theory that rebels shot down MH17 "by mistake," but that there is "no evidence of direct Russian government involvement"
1147 comments- Australia's Tony Abbott criticises search for MH17 bodies as 'unprofessional' – video
Tony Abbott MH17 press conference Video (56 sec), 23 Jul 2014: The Australian prime minister says trying to determine the number of bodies retrieved from the site of the MH17 crash has been difficult
- MH17: BBC veteran supports Sky News reporter over his 'error of judgment'
23 Jul 2014: Don't shoot the messenger, he pleads
22 comments
- MH17: grim task ahead for DNA experts as they sift remains to identify bodies
Flowers mh17 23 Jul 2014: DNA analysis should allow investigators to put a name to victims so they can be repatriated
- MH17: Bill Clinton urges resolve at Aids conference in face of plane disaster – video
Bill Clinton Video (1min 40sec), 23 Jul 2014: Former US president Bill Clinton has told delegates at a Melbourne Aids conference not to weaken their resolve following the downing of flight MH17 over Ukraine
- MH17: Bill Clinton praises Julie Bishop for securing UN resolution
23 Jul 2014: Former US president says he was proud to be in Australia at time of foreign minister's UN speech on disaster
- MH17: governor general Peter Cosgrove to receive bodies in Netherlands
Peter Cosgrove and Tony Abbott 23 Jul 2014: Joins air chief in charge of 'Operation Bring Them Home', as PM says it is unclear how many bodies are still at the site
- MH17: US intelligence says Russia 'created conditions' for plane disaster
22 Jul 2014: US officials stop short of blaming crash directly on Moscow and say separatists likely shot down plane by accident
1899 comments- US intelligence: rebels likely shot down MH17 'by mistake' – as it happened
22 Jul 2014: EU foreign ministers to weigh new sanctions against Russia
3997 comments- Flight MH17: identification begins after bodies from crash site arrive in Kharkiv
A Malaysian air crash investigator inspecting the crash debris near Grabovo 22 Jul 2014: Interpol says it has begun preliminary work on remains, which are to be flown to the Netherlands this week
- Morning Mail: MH17 bodies arrive in Ukraine; international flights to Israel suspended
22 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
- EU announces further sanctions on Russia after downing of MH17
22 Jul 2014: Proposals will not be applied immediately as Putin urges rebels to cooperate with investigators for the first time
- Why did so many people share graphic images of MH17 crash site on social media?
A man inspects debris at the main crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 22 Jul 2014: Horrific and unfiltered images of plane debris, dead bodies and the personal belongings of those who died in the crash were shared widely on social media within minutes of the disaster
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- Tories face calls to hand back £160k given by Russian for tennis match
22 Jul 2014: Wife of deputy finance minister under Putin in 2000, won auction at fundraising event to play with Cameron and Johnson
322 comments- Flight MH17: Russia must be sent clear message, says Hammond - video
HAMMOND Video (45 sec), 22 Jul 2014: The foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, says the EU must send a "very clear signal to Russia" that it cannot continue its support for separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine
- Ukrainians report sightings of missile launcher on day of MH17 crash
Buk 22 Jul 2014: In Torez, some say missile's journey through town has been a hot topic but people are scared of talking to outsiders
- MH17 black boxes arrive in Farnborough for analysis
22 Jul 2014: AAIB experts will examine chain of events using data from voice and flight recorders belonging to Malaysia Airlines plane
- MH17: five of the most bizarre conspiracy theories
22 Jul 2014: Padraig Reidy: From Zionist plots to the Illuminati, some wildly imaginative alternatives are being promoted by the likes of Russian TV
522 comments- MH17: Sky News reporter apologises for handling luggage at crash site
Colin Brazier 22 Jul 2014: Colin Brazier says 'I got it wrong' after complaints to Ofcom over footage showing him picking up items top 200. By Jason Deans
- Flight MH17: what the Russian papers are saying
A Malaysian air crash investigator inspects the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region on 22 July, 2014. 22 Jul 2014: Despite mounting evidence that Moscow-backed rebels are responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine, Russia's media is still painting a very different picture. RFE/RL reports
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- Train carrying bodies from flight MH17 arrives in Kharkiv - video
Train arrives in Kharkiv Video (54 sec), 22 Jul 2014: The train, believed to be carrying 282 bodies from the MH17 plane crash, arrives in government-held Kharkiv in Ukraine
- MH17: train carrying bodies of victims arrives in government-held Kharkiv
The train with refrigerated wagons carrying the victims' bodies arrives in city of Kharkiv 22 Jul 2014: Train believed to be carrying 282 bodies arrives in Kharkiv – from where they will be flown to the Netherlands
- Newcastle beat Sydney and pay tribute to fans who died on flight MH17
22 Jul 2014: Newcastle beat Sydney 4-0 in Dunedin at the start of their New Zealand tour but the football was overshadowed
- Alan Pardew pays tribute to Newcastle United fans killed in MH17 flight - video
Alan Pardew Video (1min 12sec), 22 Jul 2014: Newcastle United manager Alan Pardew pays tribute to two fans killed on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, saying the club will look to honour their memory this season
- MH17 tragedy reflected in the faces of schoolchildren at condolence ceremony
Ambassadors from affected countries stand in the Australian parliament foyer during the signing of a condolence book on Tuesday. 22 Jul 2014: The most heart wrenching part of parliament's condolence book ceremony was that the faces of the lost could so easily have been among the schoolchildren solemnly watching on
- MH17: UN backs resolution demanding access to crash site – as it happened
22 Jul 2014: The Security council has unanimously backed an Australian-drafted resolution condemning the "downing" of flight MH17 as separatists handover the black boxes to a Malaysian delegation
1212 comments- Tony Abbott labels MH17 crash site evidence-tampering on 'industrial scale'
22 Jul 2014: 'After the crime comes the cover-up,' says Australian PM as he steps up rhetoric against pro-Russian rebels
- MH17: my error of judgment, by Sky News reporter
MH17: Sky News reporter Colin Brazier reports from the crash scene 22 Jul 2014: Colin Brazier on how he came to pick up crash victims' luggage live on air – and immediately realised he had crossed a line
- Joe Hockey hopes Russia will still attend G20 summit in Brisbane
22 Jul 2014: 'Rarely are great things achieved by excluding people from the conversation,' says Australian treasurer
- Ukraine rebels hand over MH17 black boxes and let train carrying bodies leave
22 Jul 2014: Malaysian officials receive flight recorders, while remains of 282 victims begin journey to Netherlands
- The world is burning, but remember our sympathy goes only so far
palestine 22 Jul 2014: Matthew Beard: If we don't feel sorrow and anger at the suffering of others, something's wrong. However, a well-cultivated moral sense recognises that you can't own someone else's pain
113 comments- MH17 black box handed to Malaysia by pro-Russian separatists – video
Blackboxes returned Video (1min 06sec), 22 Jul 2014: The pro-Russian separatists governing the part of eastern Ukraine above which flight MH17 is thought to have been downed by a missile have handed the black box flight recorders to Malaysian authorities. At a ceremony in the city of Donetsk, Malaysia expressed its 'sincere appreciation'
- MH17: Australia and Netherlands join in pledge 'to bring our people home'
22 Jul 2014: Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans say the overriding objective is to bring home bodies of MH17 victims after the passing of UN resolution
- MH17: UN resolution passes as Russia points fingers at Ukraine – video
Julie Bishop Video (1min 32sec), 22 Jul 2014: Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop welcomed the acceptance of a UN resolution condemning the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and demanding access to the crash site. Russia backed the resolution, but soon after accused Ukraine of exploiting the situation for political means
- Pro-Russian rebels hand over MH17 black boxes to Malaysian officials - as it happened
Aleksandr Borodai, Prime Minister of the self proclaimed 'Donetsk People's Republic', speaks at a news conference. 21 Jul 2014: Separatists hand over MH17 black boxes to Malaysian delegation following lengthy negotiations
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- EU blacklists Vladimir Putin's 'cronies' as David Cameron calls for arms ban
21 Jul 2014: Prime minister says ties between east and west are at decisive moment as UN Security Council calls for full access to crash site
- MH17: UN backs Australian resolution demanding access to crash site
Julie Bishop UN 21 Jul 2014: Resolution wins Russian support, but ambassador questions authenticity of taped conversations and video footage
- Morning Mail: MH17 bodies moved from conflict zone; more bloodshed in Gaza
21 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
- Russia hits back at claims it supported rebels suspected of downing MH17
21 Jul 2014: Vladimir Putin still blames Kiev for disaster in eastern Ukraine and claims west is using air atrocity for political gain
- MH17 victims' bodies are finally moved out of conflict zone
Emergency workers load the bodies of passengers on to a truck 21 Jul 2014: Train carrying bodies of victims leaves Torez as plane's black box recorders were due to be handed to Malaysian delegation
- MH17 black box handover set to delay escalation of sanctions against Russia
21 Jul 2014: Move means special meeting of EU foreign ministers is unlikely to press ahead with generalised economic sanctions
- MH17: Dutch king Willem-Alexander meets grieving relatives in Utrecht
21 Jul 2014: Monarch says disaster leaves a 'deep wound in our society' after he and wife Maxima speak to family and friends of those killed
- Let Putin save face
Vladimir Putin 21 Jul 2014: Angus Roxburgh: The Russian leader hates being lectured. A change of tack could persuade him to disown Ukraine's rebels
1083 comments- MH17: Obama says Putin 'directly responsible' for investigators' safety
21 Jul 2014: President says Russian leader must 'compel separatists to cooperate', as secure recovery of bodies is 'least that decency demands'
30 comments- China stays quiet on MH17 disaster
21 Jul 2014: Closer Sino-Russian relations mean Chinese leaders are loth to apportion blame for downing of Malaysia Airlines plane
58 comments- Joep Lange obituary
Joep Lange in 2005. 21 Jul 2014: One of the world's top HIV/Aids researchers and prominent pioneer of antiretroviral therapy
3 comments- David Cameron's Commons statement on MH17: Politics live blog
21 Jul 2014: Andrew Sparrow's rolling coverage of all the day's political developments as they happen, including Tony Blair's speech marking the 20th anniversary of his election as Labour leader and David Cameron's statement to the Commons on the shooting down of flight MH17
589 comments- Heavy clashes in Donetsk as forensic experts arrive at MH17 crash site
21 Jul 2014: Four killed in heavy clashes in rebel stronghold of Donetsk as international pressure builds on Russia
3070 comments- MH17 victim's online charity appeal receives flood of donations
Flowers at Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site 21 Jul 2014: Thousands of pounds raised on JustGiving account in aid of Nepalese children since Briton died in Malaysia Airlines disaster
- MH17 crash site chaos - in pictures
Ukrainian State Emergency Service employees search amongst the wreckage at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. 21 Jul 2014: Experts fear evidence of how the Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane was brought down could be lost for ever as evidence disappears from the crash site
- UK to press European allies for tougher sanctions against Russia over MH17
21 Jul 2014: EU to consider further oil, gas, defence and financial penalties if Putin does not encourage rebels to allow access to crash site
353 comments- MH17: Dutch experts arrive at crash scene as heavy fighting breaks out
OSCE inspectors document the bodybags from MH17 at Torez train station 21 Jul 2014: Investigators say train being loaded with bodies will soon be moved as Ukraine launches offensive near Donetsk station
- Sharing pictures of corpses on social media isn't the way to bring a ceasefire
21 Jul 2014: Suzanne Moore: First thoughts: I don't need you to tweet any more images of dead children – spreading them only devalues the currency of shared humanity
813 comments- MH17: Alan Pardew dedicates season to Newcastle fans who died in Ukraine
21 Jul 2014: Alan Pardew has dedicated the forthcoming season to the two Newcastle fans who died in the Malaysian Airlines tragedy and praised Sunderland supporters for their generous donations
- MH17: Sydney teacher identified as victim of Malaysia Airlines disaster
Gabriele 21 Jul 2014: Gabriele Lauschet, who was 47, was a teacher at the German International School at Terrey Hills
- Swedish reporters detained while reporting on MH17 tragedy
21 Jul 2014: They were confined with seven other journalists
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- MH17: Abbott says Australia would take Russian veto of resolution 'very badly'
21 Jul 2014: Australian PM Tony Abbott says world leaders are strengthening their resolve over the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane
- MH17: purported black box recorder being removed from crash site – video
Black box Ukraine Video (41 sec), 21 Jul 2014: Video taken on Friday purports to show the black box recorder of flight MH17 being removed from its crash site in Ukraine, as cranes were used to remove part of the plane over the weekend. Rebel fighters say they have the black box and are prepared to hand it to international experts when they arrive in the town of Donetsk
- MH17: world's anger at Russia grows as bodies pile on to train at crash site
21 Jul 2014: Experts fear clues as to why Malaysia Airlines plane was brought down could be lost for ever as chaos at scene persists
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- Both Sydney A-League clubs touched by MH17 disaster before warm-up games
21 Jul 2014: Western Sydney Wanderers mourn fan Jack O'Brien, while Sydney FC face Newcastle United, who lost two devoted supporters
- Malaysia Airlines crash site 'absolutely shambolic', says Australian PM – video
Tony Abbott Video (3min 16sec), 21 Jul 2014: Tony Abbott has branded the MH17 crash site 'absolutely shambolic' and called on Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin to stick to his word and help repatriate the victims
- MH17: holidaymakers, students and family of five among 38 Australian victims
21 Jul 2014: Heartbreaking details emerge as identities of 38 Australian citizens and residents who died in the shooting down of MH17 over Ukraine are released
- MH17: UN resolution on ensuring crash site access set for Monday
21 Jul 2014: Russia will support final version in security council vote if no one is blamed, according to reports in Australian newspaper
- MH17: Vladimir Putin will be held to his word on open inquiry, says Tony Abbott
Tony Abbott
- Cameron tells Putin MH17 victims deserve proper funerals - as it happened
Rebel soldiers pass a large piece of debris at the main crash site of MH17 which was shot down over eastern Ukraine. 20 Jul 2014: PM has told the Russian president that he must ensure access to the crash site as negotiations continue to bring the victims' bodies under Ukrainian control.
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- Morning Mail: MH17 chaos as bodies loaded on to train; Gaza's bloodiest day
20 Jul 2014: Guardian Australia's morning news briefing from around the web
- Martin Rowson on the world's current conflicts – cartoon
Martin Rowson 21.07.14 Cartoon, 20 Jul 2014: World's anger at Russia grows following the downing of flight MH17, while the conflict in Gaza escalates, Isis militants gather strength in Syria and Baghdad bombings kill dozens
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- Cameron tells Putin shooting down of MH17 was 'unacceptable'
20 Jul 2014: Anger grows in EU and leaders prepare fresh sanctions against Moscow as separatists obstruct access to crash site
- Malaysia Airlines crash: across globe, prayers said as grief turns to despair
20 Jul 2014: Thousands of miles apart, family and friends united in mourning for those killed when missile downed flight MH17 in east Ukraine
- Russians blame Kiev government for MH17 disaster, not Ukrainian rebels
Woman lays flowers at the Dutch embassy in Moscow 20 Jul 2014: Some floral tributes outside Dutch embassy in Moscow read 'forgive us' but most people believe in plot to undermine Russia
- MH17: donations surge in memory of Britons as all 10 passengers identified
20 Jul 2014: Fundraising web page set up by Richard Mayne sees pledges spike, while tribute to Newcastle United fans raises £18,000
- Three pro-Russia rebel leaders at the centre of suspicions over downed MH17
20 Jul 2014: Igor Strelkov, Igor Bezler and Nikolai Kozitsyn reportedly discussed the shooting down of a plane soon after jet exploded
- Punishing Russia for the MH17 tragedy will not help Ukraine
flight mh17 20 Jul 2014: Oliver Bullough: Anger at Russia's actions is hardening. Yet our leaders should recognise that the west had its own role in Ukraine's collapse
540 comments- MH17: missile launcher was in towns near crash site, videos suggest
20 Jul 2014: Videos and photographs appear to show a mobile anti-aircraft missile launcher in neighbouring towns of Torez and Snizhne
196 comments
- Justice for the bereaved after MH17 tragedy
20 Jul 2014: Letters: The bereaved deserve an immediate, transparent investigation followed by appropriate compensation
- MH17: air accident experts fear that crash site is becoming contaminated
Malaysian Airlines MH 17 Crash Site 20 Jul 2014: Area in which Malaysia Airlines plane came down should be 'sealed off and treated like a crime scene' to preserve evidence
- Sky News apologises after presenter is seen looking through MH17 luggage
20 Jul 2014: Broadcaster met with storm of criticism after footage emerges of Colin Brazier picking items from suitcase at crash site
- MH17 crash: Kerry lays out evidence of pro-Russia separatists' responsibility
20 Jul 2014: US secretary of state lists 'enormous input that points fingers' and urges Moscow to act as rebels move victims' bodies from crash site
- President Putin is a pariah, say the national newspapers in unison
20 Jul 2014: Roy Greenslade on what the Sunday papers say about Russia's leader after the MH17 atrocity
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- MH17: Kerry says all evidence points to separatists and urges Russia to 'step up'
mh17 crash site 20 Jul 2014: Secretary of state says 'We have enormous input about this that points fingers' and calls on Russia to help full investigation
524 comments
- EU to rethink Russian relations in wake of MH17 tragedy
20 Jul 2014: Britain, France and Germany agree need for more robust stance against Vladimir Putin and may press for further sanctions
- Aids conference pays tribute to Malaysia Airlines victims
Aids 2014 symposium in Melbourne 20 Jul 2014: Aids 2014 symposium in Melbourne honours six experts killed when MH17 flight shot down over Ukraine
- MH17: Vladimir Putin is given 'one last chance' as world fury mounts over downed flight
20 Jul 2014: Dutch PM describes armed rebels' behaviour in blocking access to crash site as 'revolting'
2926 comments
- MH17 victims put on refrigerated train bound for unknown destination
20 Jul 2014: International monitors arrive in Torez to inspect wagons accompanied by convoy of heavily armed and nervous rebels
- MH17: pro-Russia rebels will allow access to crash site if ceasefire agreed
Armed separatists at MH17 crash site in Ukraine 20 Jul 2014: Separatist leader will guarantee safety of international monitors as Vladimir Putin gets 'one last chance' to help rescue effort
- MH17: Rebels promise safe access to site in return for truce - as it happened
20 Jul 2014: Separatist leader says they will guarantee safety of crash site observers in return for a Kiev-backed truce, amid accusations rebels are tampering with evidence and removing bodies from the site
2288 comments- MH17: UN draft resolution demands 'guilty should be held to account'
20 Jul 2014: Draft resolution demands all states co-operate with investigation and those responsible for 'shooting down' jet be held to account
- MH17: Tony Abbott says Russia cannot 'wash its hands' of airline tragedy
MH17 20 Jul 2014: The prime minister fears Russia will allow continued interference at the site and of the 298 victims
- Aids conference begins in Melbourne with gaping hole in delegates' hearts
20 Jul 2014: Colleagues say the six brilliant minds in the HIV field who died when MH17 was shot down will be remembered and honoured
- MH17: disaster was 'outcome of human evil', bishop tells Sydney mass
20 Jul 2014: Prime minister, governor-general and opposition leaders attend a service at St Mary's cathedral in Sydney
13 comments- MH17: family mourns 'senseless' deaths of three 'gentle, beautiful kids'
maslin children 20 Jul 2014: Three children and their grandfather were four of seven West Australians who died
- MH17 flight attendant Angeline Premila Rajandran: 'She loved her job'
20 Jul 2014: Family in Malaysia says 30-year-old stewardess had had job for 10 years, and priority now is for her body to be brought home
- Family and friends pay tribute as last of the British dead in MH17 are named
20 Jul 2014: Ten British citizens died when the Malaysia Airlines jet was shot down over eastern Ukraine. They included a father of three who died along with his Dutch wife and their children
- MH17: the evidence against Russia
Buk missile system on video said to be eastern ukraine hours before aeroplane crash 20 Jul 2014: In the hours after the Malaysia Airlines crash in Ukraine, evidence assembled from various sources appeared to point the blame at militants armed with Russian missiles
Ukraine: it's time brutish Putin was held to accountMalaysia Airlines plane crashes in eastern Ukraine 20 Jul 2014: Observer editorial: Russia under Putin has become a threat – regional and global – and its behaviour should be challenged
533 comments- David Cameron criticises Europe for lack of action on pro-Russia separatists
20 Jul 2014: 'For too long there has been a reluctance to face up to the implications of what is happening,' British PM says
- Ukraine and the aftermath of the downing of flight MH17
Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crash site in Donetsk Region 19 Jul 2014: Dmitri Trenin: A ceasefire is only the first step in a process to reverse the trend towards mutual destruction in the region
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- MH17 and its aftermath: 'ordinary Russians are horrified and frightened'
19 Jul 2014: Natalia Antonova: In Moscow, conspiracy theories abound, along with disdain for the separatists and some support for Putin
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- MH17: Kerry expresses US concern over reports bodies and debris moved
19 Jul 2014: Secretary of state speaks to Russian foreign minister as Russia and US put out differing statements on phone call
62 comments- Pilots' group president says MH17 shot down after attempt to avoid storms
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 takes off at 12.31 PM from Schiphol airport near Amsterdam. 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines plane was flying lower than planned and may have diverted on to more northerly course over Donetsk
- Putin's hard line on MH17 will only push Russia into an ever-tighter corner
19 Jul 2014: Jonathan Eyal: the Russian president has several routes of retreat in the face of growing pressure. He is unlikely to take any of them
- MH17: armed rebels fuel chaos as rotting corpses pile up on the roadside
19 Jul 2014: Pro-Russia gunmen in standoff with international investigators as reports grow of looting and the removal of evidence
- MH17: Russia is not yet ready to abandon rebel groups
Russian President Vladimir Putin: not a happy man last week. 19 Jul 2014: Shaun Walker: if Vladimir Putin's 'people' are found responsible for the tragedy in Ukraine, it will be devastating for him
- MH17: Russian media pins blame on Ukraine government
19 Jul 2014: Rebel leaders go on Russian TV to deny role in disaster as state-run channels cover conspiracy theories and counterclaims
- MH17: Ukraine claims 'compelling evidence' of Russian involvement
19 Jul 2014: Kiev says it has proof that missile launchers with Russian crews crossed into Ukraine as fears mount that rebels are destroying evidence and removing bodies from the crash site
3031 comments- Malaysia's airline workers express horror and anger at fate of flight MH17
A candle-lit vigil in Kuala Lumpur for the victims of the MH17 crash 19 Jul 2014: The president of the country's national union of flight attendants calls the death of all 298 people on board mass murder
- MH17: Ukraine accuses pro-Russia rebels of taking bodies from crash site
19 Jul 2014: Kiev says pro-Russia rebels have removed bodies from crash site with help from Moscow, and are trying to destroy evidence
- Malaysia Airlines plane crash: 'an outrage of unspeakable proportions', says Obama - video
Barack Obama Video (1min 47sec), 19 Jul 2014: US President Barack Obama discusses on Friday the shooting down a Malaysian passenger plane in east Ukraine on Thursday
- The 20 photographs of the week
A Palestinian man burns a tyre during clashes with Israeli soldiers Gallery (20 pictures), 19 Jul 2014: The aftermath of the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, the escalating violence in Israel, the World Cup final – the best photography in news, culture and sport from around the world this week
Eyewitness: Hrabove, UkraineFlowers are placed on a plane engine at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines jet Picture, 19 Jul 2014: Photographs from the Guardian Eyewitness series
- Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash site integrity may be compromised, says Malaysia - video
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site Video (3min 05sec), 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia expresses concerns that the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has not been properly secured
- Russian media is covering up Putin's complicity in the MH17 tragedy
monkey ukraine 19 Jul 2014: Masha Alekhina: In Russia, errors like shooting down a Malaysia Airlines jet could not have happened, so they simply won't have happened
854 comments- Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash – in pictures
Wildflowers are placed on a plane engine at the crash site. 19 Jul 2014: As experts from the UK and Malaysia arrive in Kiev to assist a Ukrainian-led investigation into how flight MH17 was brought down, the world pays its respects to the dead
- Pro-Russia rebels accused of cover-up over MH17 atrocity
19 Jul 2014: World leaders continue to demand answers over the MH17 air atrocity and relatives of the 298 on board mourn
1475 comments- MH17: Kiev and rebels hold talks to set up security zone around crash site
Miners inspect a piece of debris found in a field from an Air Malaysia plane on July 18, 2014 in Grabovka, Ukraine. 19 Jul 2014: Agreement comes as experts from UK and Malaysia arrive in Kiev to assist a Ukrainian-led investigation into how flight was brought down
1549 comments- MH17: Victorian family of five add to list of Australian victims
19 Jul 2014: Couple and three children from Eynesbury, Melbourne, confirmed on flight as country mourns victims
- Australians who died on flight MH17 – in pictures
Albert and Maree Rizk 19 Jul 2014: These are some of the faces of passengers who on board MH17 when it was apparently shot down over Ukraine
- MH17: Tony Abbott increases pressure on Russia as Bishop heads for UN
ukraine church 19 Jul 2014: Australian prime minister says he wants justice for 'dead and the living' and a 'full, impartial' investigation
- All eyes are on Vladimir Putin's reaction to the flight MH17 disaster
19 Jul 2014: Mary Dejevsky: The Russian president can either join international efforts to investigate the tragedy or he can choose obfuscation and denial
202 comments- MH17: AIDS conference organisers name six delegates killed in crash
19 Jul 2014: International AIDS Society expresses grief at loss of colleagues, saying there will be more
- MH17 crash: Julie Bishop urges Russia to back swift investigation
Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop speaks to the media following her meeting with the Russian ambassador, Vladimir Morozov, in Sydney on Friday. 19 Jul 2014: Australian foreign minister says UN resolution is needed to ensure bodies can be repatriated and crash site examined
- MH17: Northern Territory teacher died returning from holiday
19 Jul 2014: Emma Bell, originally from NSW, was due back for the new term at Maningrida
- MH17: rebels block access to part of site of crash as evidence against them grows
19 Jul 2014: First OSCE investigators to the scene retreat after hour-long standoff with armed separatists who fired warning shots
21 comments- MH17: Australian flags to be flown at half-mast as nation mourns victims
Sister Philomene Tiernan was a teacher at Kincoppal-Rose Bay. 19 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines says it will fly families of 28 victims to Ukraine as Tony Abbott asks for official mark of respect at government buildings
- Martin Rowson on flight MH17 and the Gaza invasion – cartoon
Martin Rowson 19.07.14 Cartoon, 18 Jul 2014: This week ended with a double dose of horror: Israel's ground incursion into Gaza, and the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17
205 comments- Obama: MH17 disaster 'an outrage of unspeakable proportions' – as it happened
18 Jul 2014: Answers demanded after the apparent shooting down of a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane with 298 people on board
4589 comments- Number of Aids researchers on flight MH17 'smaller than reported'
Joep Lange 18 Jul 2014: Melbourne conference organisers confirm names of seven delegates on board with 28 Australian victims
- MH17 plane crash site: sunhats, sweets … and stakes marking body parts
18 Jul 2014: Human remains, debris from Malaysia Airlines plane and surreal paraphernalia of long-haul travellers covers 15 square mile area
- Obama says destruction of MH17 is a 'wake-up call' for Europe
18 Jul 2014: US president says separatists receive anti-aircraft equipment and training 'from Russia'
- MH17 disaster creates dilemma for Putin over backing Ukraine's rebels
Russian President Vladimir Putin 18 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines crash makes supplying arms to separatists a threat to the world but pulling the plug means defeat for Russia
- Cover-up: Ukraine rebels destroying all links to MH17 air atrocity
18 Jul 2014: UN demands full inquiry but armed Russian separatists block access to crash site amid confusion over black boxes
968 comments
- Sifting through the wreckage of MH17, searching for sense amid the horror
18 Jul 2014: Jonathan Freedland: In the face of events from Ukraine to Gaza, we want to believe that the world is not a place of uncontrollable catastrophe
434 comments- Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months
Planes 18 Jul 2014: British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down
- MH17: Heathrow top departure point for planes that flew near east Ukraine
18 Jul 2014: Flight radar data shows that 930 flights travelled near or around eastern Ukraine over the past seven days
- The Guardian view on the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine
18 Jul 2014: Editorial: Could this tragedy lead to new thinking in Moscow and Kiev and bring about fresh negotiations?
634 comments- Dutch king offers condolences to relatives of people on flight MH17
Dutch King Willem-Alexander and Queen Maxima 18 Jul 2014: Information shows 189 of 298 people on board were Dutch, but overall reaction to tragedy in Netherlands is restrained
- Alan Pardew pays tribute to Newcastle United supporters on flight MH17
18 Jul 2014: Newcastle United players and staff will wear black armbands in New Zealand as they pay tribute to John Alder and Liam Sweeney
- Flight MH17 was following right route, says Malaysian minister
18 Jul 2014: Malaysia Airlines says flight plan was approved and airspace was commonly used for flights between Europe and Asia
- MH17 crash: WHO officer, students and Newcastle fans among British victims
Glenn Thomas, WHO media officer 18 Jul 2014: Glenn Thomas, NUFC fans Liam Sweeney and John Alder, and students Richard Mayne and Ben Pocock on MH17
- Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: what we know so far
A picture taken on July 18, 2014 shows the wreckages of the Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur 18 Jul 2014: Following new developments and global reaction overnight, here is a roundup of what we know about Thursday's crash in the Ukraine
- Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: world demands answers from Russia
18 Jul 2014: US criticises Kremlin's arming of rebels and Hillary Clinton says 'Putin has gone too far' after 298 die in missile strike
- Two Australians on downed MH17 lost relatives on missing flight MH370
Pieces of wreckage of the Malaysia Airli 18 Jul 2014: Family who suffered loss in March tragedy ripped apart again after Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 298 people is shot down
- Malaysia Airlines crash: Putin calls for Ukraine ceasefire
18 Jul 2014: Russian president's call for both sides to enter talks comes as Moscow and Kiev blame each other for the downing of flight MH17
- Russia Today reporter resigns in protest at MH17 coverage
18 Jul 2014: Sara Firth criticises Kremlin-backed news channel's 'disrespect for facts' in reports about Malaysia Airlines plane disaster By John Plunkett
- The MH17 crash images show us what war in Europe looks like in 2014
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site 18 Jul 2014: Jonathan Jones: Framing the debate: Rightly, picture editors chose not to show some photos taken at the site. The wreckage itself communicates all we need to know
336 comments- Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17
18 Jul 2014: Schiphol passenger reaction typified by: 'This is something that never, ever happens. It's unlikely to happen again.'
- Malaysia Airlines crash: world leaders condemn attack - video
Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight crash site Video (3min 12sec), 18 Jul 2014: World leaders, including David Cameron, Barack Obama and Angela Merkel, condemn the shooting down of Malaysia Airline flight MH17
- Photo highlights of the day
David Beckhamwith Cruz and Romeo get slimed onstage during Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Sports Awards in Los Angeles, California. 18 Jul 2014: The Guardian's photo team brings you a daily round up from the world of photography
5 comments- MH17 dominates newspaper front pages around world, but not in Russia
18 Jul 2014: State-run Rossiyskaya Gazeta leads with story about Russians' eating habits, relegating plane crash to bottom of page
• Follow the live blog on the MH17 crash- MH17 victims include former president of International Aids Society
18 Jul 2014: Joep Lange and partner among number of scientists and activists flying to international Aids conference in Melbourne
- 'Tragedy of flight MH17 must mark final point in Ukraine conflict'
Yuriah Tanzil (C), sister of Ninik Yuriani, an Indonesian passenger of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, is comforted by a relative in the family residence in Jakarta. All 298 people on board Flight MH17 en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam died when the plane crashed near a Ukrainian village. 18 Jul 2014: After the loss of so many innocent lives, the international community must find a way to prevent this stand-off from reaching an even more dangerous level, says Dmitri Trenin
- Ukraine responsible for Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 disaster, says Vladimir Putin – video
Russian President Vladimir Putin Video (1min 47sec), 18 Jul 2014: Russian president Vladimir Putin reacts on Thursday to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Ukraine
- Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash – in pictures
The crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in Donetsk 18 Jul 2014: The world is demanding answers from Russia after a Malaysia Airlines jet's destruction over Donetsk, Ukraine, near the Russian border. The area has seen violent clashes between Ukrainian and pro-Russia separatists since the annexation of Crimea in February
- Cameron: culprits who shot down MH17 must be held to account
Wreckage from Malaysia Airlines MH17 in east Ukraine
- Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine – video report
Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 flight crash site Video (2min 10sec), 18 Jul 2014: Firefighters and journalists discuss Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which was shot down in eastern Ukraine
- Ukraine: missile that downed MH17 plane was not ours
18 Jul 2014: Foreign minister denies missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines jet over east of country came from Ukrainian military
- MH17: Russia risks losing standing over handling of disaster, Tony Abbott warns
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July 24, 2014 | stopfake.org
In his article on livejournal.com, blogger 0serg analyses versions and questions around the downing of Malaysian Boeing MH17.
Q: What was MH17 doing over the combat zone? What a bastard had sent it there?
A: MH17 was following the usual air route L980 for civilian aviation. There are several such air routes from the West to the East of Ukraine; I marked them in blue on the map below.
Q: So why did it not take one of the air routes to the south? I see three air routes there, two of them had been used by MH17 before
A: Do you see the black polygon on the map with a yellow and red spots in it? This polygon used to be the area of responsibility of the Simferopol air traffic control post. According to the international rules, this air traffic zone is controlled by Ukraine, but after the annexation of Crimea, Russia claimed this zone, threw out Ukrainian air traffic control officers from Simferopol and assigned their own. The Interstate Aviation Committee SUDDENLY decided this was a wrong thing to do. Obviously, so did Kyiv. And since then pilots flying through the zone have no idea, whom to listen: Ukrainian air traffic control officers, or Russian. Most of them prefer to abide by the international rules, but the Russians prefer their own, which creates uncomfortable situations when two aircrafts lead by different air traffic control officers can meet in the sky. Add Ukraine's inability to monitor this zone effectively and you will understand, why in April 2014 the recommendations appeared, which forbid flights over Crimea for commercial aviation (red and yellow zones - FAA and Eurocontrol prohibitions).
Now, can you see two red ellipses a bit above Crimea? I heard news that during the grieved flight of MH17 there had been storm. If it is true, the pilots' choice of L980 was logical. More information why the pilots did what they did will become available, when the "black boxes" are deciphered, yet there was nothing strange in their actions.
Q: The Ukrainian military closed the air space over Donetsk! It was forbidden to go there!
A: If you bother to read the full text of the message, the ATO zone was closed for flights at altitude lower than FL 260 (7.9 km). That tragic day the limit was temporary lifted to FL320 (9.7km). Transit over ATO at FL330, where the Boeing was hit, had never been closed.
Q: That's still retarded, no one was even flying there!
A: Well, according to the often-cited FlightRadar - Singapore Airlines 323, KLM Flight 809 and others flew there, including MH17 days earlier. It is reported that on July 17th there were approximately 55 planned flights.
Here is the map of the air traffic heaviness in the region:
MH17_2
Thence, though the pilots tried flying South, there were plenty of planes on L980. According to the opinion of our own Ministry of Defence, Singapore Airlines flight 351 and Air India flight 113 were on the same path when MH17 was hit.
Q: Why did the air control officer order the Boeing to descend? It was supposed to fly at FL350 (10.7 km) why the air control officer sent it to FL 330 (10.1 km), just above the closed zone.
A: This is absolutely normal. The route of MH17 was crossing a number of other planes' paths. If there were other aircrafts at FL350, MH17 could potentially collide with one of them. The job of the air control officers is to prevent dangerous situations, that is why they could easily change the flight level of MH17, if it was necessary. Because of various delays, such cases cannot be scheduled, so FL350 was rather optional.
Q: LOL! What a fortunate coincidence! They were bringing it closer to the limit and to the flak cannon's reach?
Well, of you are so fond of conspiracy, I will give you one simple fact. MH17 was entering Ukraine's air space at FL310 (9.4 km), which it had had all the way above Germany and Poland. The air control officer's requesting FL330 when entering Ukraine's air space increased the altitude of MH17, not decreased it. In general, the altitude of MH17 was increasing all the way and never decreasing. Fully fuelled for such a long flight, the Boeing, perhaps, could not take FL350 because it was too heavy.
Q: Yet, a Spaniard working as a flight control officer in Borispol (Kyiv) saw two attack planes following MH17 before the crash!
A: Civil flight control officers work with the so-called "secondary radar", it's when the aircraft itself sends data about its location or after a request. When the corresponding transponder is switched off, the plane "disappears" from the civil radars. Remember the story with the disappeared MH 317? It disappeared precisely because someone had manually switched off the transponder. It is something unusual for the civil aviation, but common for the military: the coordinates of transponders can be easily traced. The already mentioned Flight Radar, for example, collects most of its data (if not all) without any help. Considering all of it, it is surprising, that according to this version, Ukrainian pilots who could stay undetected, decided to "show up" for everyone, and no one except the notorious flight control officer failed to notice them. Including the Russian military, by the way, the air situation maps published yesterday do not show these "Ukrainian attack planes following the aircraft".
Yet, there is something more interesting. The zone of the Kyiv flight control officer's responsibility ends near Krivyi Rig, to the South from it there is the Dnepropetrovsk zone. So the unfortunate MH17 was downed in 400 km (25 min) from the zone of the hypothetical Borispol flight control officer, so I doubt the plane was appearing on the radars there (not to mention the flight controls officers hardly had the time to trace another aircraft they had already passed to their colleagues). The citizenship of the air control officer is doubtful as well, since according to the current Ukrainian legislation, only citizens of Ukraine can hold this position. To sum it up, the "flight control officer" theory is full of unanswerable questions and overall groundless.
Q: Okay, so what do we know for sure about the catastrophe?
A: Well, we know for sure that until a certain moment, it was a regular routine flight of MH17. According to the secondary radar information, the aircraft followed FL 330 without any incidents, manoeuvres or deviations. The last message from the plane's transponder was received at 13:18 UTC, when it was above the town of Horlovka (green dot). The aircraft was precisely on the civil route (blue line) FL 330 (10.05 km altitude). After this, the transponder sent some gibberish and at 13:20 UTC a signal from the distress radiobeacon was received, which identified the crash site near the town of Krasnyi Luch (orange dot). After this, the wreckage was found near Grabovo village (red dot) on the civil route line, approximately 40 km from the last position of the route. According to the eyewitnesses, the aircraft was destroyed in the air, wreckage and bodies of the victims scattered over a vast area. The cockpit (where the distress radiobeacon was found), for example, was found near Rassypnaia village, in 5 km from the other wreckage, near Petropavlovka (7 km) more fuselage wreckage was found (lilac dot). The small pieces of wreckage, according to some reports, were scattered on the territory 15 km in length and the total square of over 50 km2.
MH17_3
Q: That's a number of completely different dots on the map! So how the plane was downed? It was probably attacked before it even entered the zone that was under separatists' control!
A: Let us look at the wreckage and imagine the situation a bit. We'll start with something that does not create airlift, separate heavy metal parts, parts of the fuselage and human bodies. If we assume, such wreckage was formed where the aircraft was flying at the altitude of 10 km with the speed of 250 m/s and neglect the wind resistance, it is not hard to calculate, that it should hit the ground in 45.1 seconds, having flown 11.3 km from the point where it had begun to fall. The real wreckage will meet the wind resistance, so it will require more time to fall down to the ground (it will take 3 minutes for a human body to fall, for example). In addition, the wind resistance will quickly decrease the horizontal speed to zero. For example, the stable speed of a free falling human in lower atmosphere is approximately 40 m/s. With such speed, the acceleration added by the gravitation (9.8 m/s2) is compensated by the "anti-acceleration" of the wind resistance. Which means, the original 250 m/s of the initial speed with reducing acceleration will be decreased to 40 m/s within less than 21 seconds, long before the body will fall to the ground. Overall, it means, though the wreckage needs more time to fall to the ground, it travels less horizontal distance (see the picture for details). The complete equation is pretty hard, since the resistance changes with the speed of flight and atmospheric density, which differs depending on the altitude (the speed decrease in lower atmosphere is higher than in the upper), but overall the wreckage will cover the area from 0 to 10.3 km from the point where the plane was destroyed.
MH17_4
The "aerodynamic" case with the airlift is a bit more complicated. In this case, the air does not simply affect wreckage in the direction opposing the direction of the speed vector, but also gives it a significant perpendicular impact. There are a number of possible cases: 1. the aircraft is whole and under control. In this case, 777 would have probably remained in one piece. With one engine failure, it could have flown over 2100 km, with both engines failure over 120. The radio would have continued to function; the pilots could have turned to the nearest landing ground and would have had high chances of getting there.2. The aircraft remains whole, but for some reason loses control. Chances are low even if the engines continue to work. The plane starts wavering vertically and enters a wide bank; the wavering and bank increase until the plane hits something or enters a more extreme flight mode (see below) 3. The plane is partially or completely destroyed. We get same vertical wavering and horizontal rotation, but significantly stronger: the plane enters the spin. The aircraft's altitude quickly decreases, while the speed of the plane and the air density increase; the combination of the two last factors leads to the aerodynamic pressure increase and, with significant altitude and speed, to aircraft's destruction in the air.
Considering all of the above, the data of the secondary radar and the visible area of wreckage, it is safe to assume MH17 was hit somewhere between Gorlovka and Ienakievo, lost control and navigation equipment, started uncontrolled descend and was destroyed in the air before reaching Rossypne.
Q: Could it fall on its own? Most of the planes fall on their own
A: Considering the sudden navigation signal loss, absence of distress message and quick descend of the plane, such probability is extremely low. While the odds of such accident coinciding with entering the air zone over DPR are even lower. Potentially the plane could have been destroyed by a bomb in baggage or passenger compartment, if timing was right and the bomb was activated by radio, however some of the wreckage of the front part of the plane has a number of holes, which curve inside. Wing wreckage also has holes, which lead inside. Such damage hints that the plane was hit by a missile that had exploded under the front part of the plane's fuselage, with splinters going vertically through the front part of the fuselage and hitting the wings, which were farther from the explosion.
Q: I read the damage resembles the damage from an air-to-air missileA: The damage of the wing indeed looks like it was hit by an air-to-air missile, which had followed the heat of the engine. But the splinters would not have hit the front part of the fuselage, which would have meant there is no explanation of the holes in the cockpit. Besides, such planes were sometimes downed with air-to-air missiles and in all known cases (LN114, KAL 902, KAL 007) the damage was not enough to destroy the plane completely, all three planes kept partial control after the hit and tried to land, KAL 902 even managed to perform successful landing.While the version in which the missile exploded under the front part of the fuselage ties in with all the evidence. But in this case it had to be a heavy missile with a radar fuse. For example, a missile from the Buk missile system. Such missile is large and heavy enough to have its start detected by the missile early-warning satellites. The US possess missile early-warning satellites to monitor Russia and claim these satellites detected temperature signatures that seemed like a Buk missile start, the explosion when the Boeing was hit and the last explosion when the plane fell.
Q: You write nonsense: such heavy and powerful missile like Buk should have blown the Boeing to pieces, the plane had no armour. In addition, it was full of fuel for a long flight, so it should have exploded and burned in the air
A: The kerosene, used by the modern aircrafts, has same body and burning quality as the gas oil. It is not easy to set it on fire in the first place, and the thing is, it has to be mixed with the air first. For example, to stick the plane into the ground, so the kerosene splashes out; or to disperse kerosene with quick air stream; or to boil the kerosene inside the tank and let the air inside. Aircraft designers pay much attention to prevent accidental explosions from such reasons as fuel tank overheating. So when the missile exploded, the fuel was yet in the state when it could not ignite. Yet, after the missile exploded, it was possible for a few holes to appear and let the kerosene mix with the air, but it yet had to ignite, though it would still burn steadily, not explode right away. Still, the low temperature and pressure at the altitude of MH17 would have significantly decreased the probability of such process. For example, until 1950 the inability of the petrol to burn at high altitudes was limiting the altitude of flights for the piston airliners, which had to use mechanical compressors to increase the pressure of the air entering the engine.
Q: So the Ukrainians launched this missile themselves. Not their first time.
A: Ukraine has the Buk missile systems S-200 and S-300, which could have been used to down the aircraft. Yet, according to the eyewitnesses and the Ministry of Defence of Russia, only the missile system Buk-M1 was in the zone where MH17 fell, which has 9М38М1 missiles with 25-30 km range. Considering that MH17 was hit in 35 km from the borders of DPR, the possibility of the Ukrainian Buk reaching it is doubtful.
Here is the map published yesterday by the Ministry of Defence of Russia with marked Buk positions and their range. It is important to note that according to this map, MH17 could have been hit only by one of three Buks: from Avdeevka, to the North of Shakhtersk and Southeast of Donetsk. What's interesting, is that all three spots were under the control of the separatists when MH17 was hit.
Q: Wait, what? You're saying that Russian Ministry of Defence published information which proves the missile launch was made from the territory under DPR's control?!
A: Surprised? I am surprised too, but still. For example, Avdeevka was stormed and captured by the Ukrainian army only yesterday. Shakhtersk is deep inside DPR territory, from it the rebels often perform successful breakthroughs to Russia. It's even difficult to add anything about the Donetsk outskirts: it's the capital of DPR after all, and the Ukrainian forces are storming it from the West. So what "Ukrainian Buks" could Russian intelligence find there?
I will repeat: this is not a joke. For example, a satellite image from Russian Ministry of Defence, on which two Buk-M1 are allegedly placed in the field. The image has the coordinates of the location – N47-59-00 E038-27-05. Let us mark this location on the map (red cross) with the positions of the other Buks reported by the Ministry of Defence (blue crosses) and the range (red circles, r = 30 km, again, the information from the Ministry of Defence)…
MH17_5
Oops. For those, who do not want to compare these coordinates with the news, I will give a hint: it is in 20 km from Amvrosievka village, one of the supporting points of the rebels. Donetsk is to the West, Mariinovka, stormed and captured by the rebels during the last week, to the East. So how could a Ukrainian Buk appear in 20 kilometres behind the front line?
Q: But the SSU lied about some Chernukhino, which is located somewhere in Lugansk Oblast!
A: OK, let us put more marks on the map: Chernukhino, mentioned in intercepted communications published by the SSU (cross to the north) and the Southern outskirts of Torez from which the launch was performed according to the eyewitnesses (cross to the South). The red arrows show the positions where the alleged photos of the Buks were made. As it is seen, it was quite comfortable for the Buk to shoot the plane from Chernukhino, while the photo and the video of the Buk were made incredibly close to the place, where the Russian satellite detected "Ukrainian" Buks in DPR's area.
MH17_6
Q: I still don't believe it: to launch a Buk missile you need a complex of several vehicles. You need to designate the target.
A: Let us analyse. M1 Buk includes: 9S470 command post, 9S18 Kupol / Tube Arm acquisition radar, 9A39 TELAR, and the 9A310 TEL/transloader.Two vehicles carry the missiles: 9А39 and 9А310. The pictures of Buks provided by the rebels have only 9А310 on them:
MH17_7
9А39 – looks like this:
MH17_8
Note, that the last vehicle looks much cooler. It got more missiles and can launch them, also it can self-reload and reload 9А310. While 9А310 is not capable of it. Four rockets instead of eight and it cannot even reload itself. So what was it needed for at all? What the hell is that round thing on 9А310 instead of four additional missiles?
If you don't understand what am I getting at, the "more missiles" 9А39 cannot fire alone, without the target acquisition radar, while 9А310 can. That round thing is 9С35 radar and it is put there to target the missiles launched by 9А310. Thing is, 9М38М1 – is a missile with semi-active fire-and-forget guidance, it requires target designation from a radar. This designation was provided by 9С35 which allowed 9А310 to attack targets. While 9А39 needed 9С18 to track targets, 9А310 was enough to provide the initial target, then it can "work".
Could 9А310 down the Boeing alone? Yes, it could. It's a bit "blind" without target designation from 9С18, I mean it has hard time finding targets on its own, but if it is facing the right direction, it can target a plane and hit it with a missile.
Q: So, the rebels were firing at random? They aren't idiots after all!
A: Why randomly? They are talented rebels and unlike the Ukrainian military, they know how to use weapons. Just look how professionally they, for example, attacked a camp of the Ukrainian forces near the Russian border at night with multiple rocket launchers. I assure you: people who fire randomly do not hit the targets. Maybe, the rebels own their precise targeting to Russia's intelligence? After all, a Buk only needs the direction, altitude of the target and the time when it will appear. Providing the rebels with this information could not be a hard task. Besides it wasn't the first plane they shot down, according to the rebels, same day they destroyed AN-26 and Su-25. Could they be firing at AN-26 and hit the Boeing? I think they could. The radar was far from being perfect, which could increase the possibility of mistake in target selection.
Q: No, it was Ukrainian Buk. The SSU are idiots, they spread the video of an M1 Buk with one missile missing. They claimed the video had been made in Lugansk, that Buk had been quickly returning to Russia, but our valiant Ministry of Defence noted the Krasnoarmeisk address on one of the ads, it is under the control of the Ukrainian military. So they were the ones who had launched the missile!
A: Oh, yea, our valiant Ministry of Defence is cool, alight. Can you see the address "Krasnoarmeisk, 34 Dnepropetrovskaia St.? You can't, but it is there, according to the Ministry of Defence. While if you pay more attention, the Ministry of Defence saw a line of text in bottom right corner of the banner in the video, which read "BOGDAN". Automobile dealership BOGDAN is situated in Krasnoarmeisk, Dnepropetrovskaia St, 34. Well connected, is it not? Now we click here and realise the Ministry of Defence made a mistake, since "Bogdan" is merely a Ukrainian car brand. You can even see its logo there. There are also trolleybus wires in the video. Now, there are trolleybuses in Luhansk, but there are none in Krasnoarmeisk. More questions?
Q: The Ministry of Defence provided the data from the radars, which shows how the Ukrainian plane had approached the Boeing. Besides MH17 left its route and performed some strange manoeuvre. You obviously can't argue with that, ha!
A: The data of the Ministry of Defence has coordinates, which allows us to link it to the maps I showed earlier. We link it…
MH17_9
and see, that the Ministry of Defence is not too good at data providing. For example, according to the radar information, the plane almost reached 39 degree east, though it is known it had fallen earlier. Besides the path of MH17 is quite different compared with the information from the secondary radar, it is confusing: MH17 was flying following a straight line (because that's the shortest trajectory) – so how did this squiggle appear, it is absent on all other maps? So why the plane's route does this squiggle in the South, was it trying to avoid something? And why does the "route of the Ukrainian attack plane" miraculously starts from almost the same spot, where you can find two Buks on the satellite images?
Q: Well, they could have made a mistake. Ukrainians, for example, lie about dozens of children killed in Boeing crash and it's alright with them. Only three kids died.
A: Information about three kids is merely a translation mistake: "280 passengers, 3 infants, 15 crew" was translated as "280 adults, 3 children, 15 crew". But "infant" is an "infant", while a child can be a passenger. In fact, 80 children were killed. I would like the bastards who ask "not to speculate on the numbers and stop lying about the number of children, there were only three of them" to take a look at their photos and repeat these words in private to their parents.
Q: But the eyewitnesses saw Ukrainian plane attack! The painting on the Boeing was similar to the painting on Putin's aircraft, their routes crossed earlier! I still think it's Ukrainian provocation, they thought they were downing Putin and hit the civilians.
A: The eyewitnesses also saw a missile launch from the ground, and this is proved by other evidence, while the attack plane version isn't. The attack plane version looks strange because of several reasons. For example, how could people identify the type of the plane (Su-25) from 15 km distance, its attack and to which country it belonged, And why would anyone use Su-25 for such attack, if there were more suitable planes for the task?
The version about Putin is simply retarded. Yes, his plane was flying when MH17 was in the air. Yes, if you compare their routes, they crossed near Warsaw. But both aircrafts passed this "crossing point" with 35 minutes difference and the distance between them had always been over 300 kilometres! And how come Ukrainian flight control officers knew it was a civil plane, while the Ukrainian military didn't? How was it possible to notice the colours of the Boeing, but fail to notice the "Malaysia" inscription on it, or that the Boeing had 2 engines, while the plane of Putin has 4?
To sum it upNote all the lie, spread after the Boeing-777 was downed. Friends, are you not disgusted to live among the people blatantly lying with constant patter about Tu-154 that was downed by Ukrainians thirteen (!) years ago?
I do not know who attacked MH17, and I do not want to claim it was the rebels before the investigation is over, though many facts point to this. Yet I claim, the Russian authorities echoing these jackasses whole last week, poured a bucket of lies accusing Ukraine. So, friends, is it alright with you?
And lastly
Q: The Ukrainian military are retards, they said the rebels had no Buks. Don't you believe the Ukrainian military? They dropped a clanger!
A: There's an important detail, which retards fail to notice: the Ukrainian military said the rebels had no captured Ukrainian Buks. But it is hard to deny Buks on DPR's territory, as I already said, they are seen on the Ministry of Defence photos. Which means they received them from Russia. And it becomes obvious for the whole world. Aren't you afraid of the consequences, compatriots?
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2014-08-12 | xinhuanet.com
THE HAGUE, Aug. 11 (Xinhua) -- The investigation into the cause and circumstances of the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 led by the Dutch Safety Board continues in The Hague, the board announced on Monday.The team has relocated to The Hague to continue its work. In recent weeks, an international team of around 25 aircraft accident investigators collected as much investigation information as possible in Ukraine.
The team's efforts will initially focus on the report of preliminary findings, which the Dutch Safety Board aims to publish in a few weeks' time.
The report will contain the first factual findings arising from the investigation based on various sources, such as the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, air traffic control data, radar and satellite images. These data are currently being compared and will subsequently be analyzed.
Due to the changed safety situation on the crash site it is unclear whether the data can be supplemented with information from further investigations at the crash site. To date under Ukrainian supervision only a few investigators were able to briefly visit the crash site immediately after the plane crash.
Since the Dutch Safety Board took charge of the investigation no new opportunity has arisen for the team to visit the crash site. The investigators who were on stand-by in Kharkov and Soledar to travel to the disaster area returned to the Netherlands last week in the light of the deteriorated safety situation in eastern Ukraine and the Dutch government's decision to leave the crash site for the time being.
The Dutch Safety Board will still be represented by a liaison in the Dutch Embassy in Kiev for the purpose of the working arrangements that need to be made with all parties involved.
In addition to the investigation into the relevant facts of the MH17 disaster, the Dutch Safety Board is conducting an investigation into the decision-making process concerning the flight routes and the risk assessment made in choosing to fly over eastern Ukraine.
The Dutch Safety Board is also investigating why the complete passenger list for MH17 was not available immediately.
The Board will not make any statements with regard to the blame or liability for the crash. These issues will not form part of its investigation.
That the investigation team continues to work in The Hague, does not mean that it will no longer go to the crash site. This is still the intention.
On Aug. 6 the Dutch government already decided to stop another mission, the recovery mission on the MH17 crash site, until further notice due to the deteriorating security conditions in the area. This team hopes to return to Ukraine before the winter weather starts in October and investigating the crash site becomes almost impossible.
The Boeing 777 went down on July 17 in Ukraine near the Russian border, killing all 298 people on board.
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Kaiama , 11 August 2014 2:16am"While here in the Netherlands I will have an opportunity to talk to Prime Minister Rutte and other Dutch officials about the ongoing investigation into the shooting down of MH17,"Beckow -> Kaiama , 11 August 2014 3:44amAbbott has said pro-Russian militants are responsible for downing the aircraft over eastern Ukraine on 17 July.
Aren't we supposed to wait for the results of the investigation before assigning blame?
Abbot is completely incoherent. That's why he had to fly to Holland to explain himself in person. He knows who is guilty, but wants to wait for the investigation. How did this guy get elected?jeddanova -> Kaiama , 11 August 2014 8:17amG20 is a forum for economic issues. It is hosted by different countries in turn. Australia doesn't own it. If they can't get along with some of the attendees, I am sure there are other countries in G20 that could host it.
Daisy06 -> Dennis Levin , 11 August 2014 2:24amAbbott has said pro-Russian militants are responsible for downing the aircraft over eastern Ukraine on 17 July. http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/
Abbott is milking the dead for all he's worth.... disgusting exhibition by the Australian Prime Minister.ligaff , 11 August 2014 2:22amGood. We can now start to find out which officials at Malaysian Airlines showed a lack of duty of care and authorised a civilian airliner to fly over a war zone in which several military airliners had been shot down in the weeks prior to this tradgedy....Oh that's right. He means blame the people he's politically and economic masters are opposed to without any actual evidence and impose more sactions in this economic war against Russia and re-instate the free low of gas to Europe.DeConstruct -> ligaff , 11 August 2014 5:28amSarah7591Wilson -> ligaff, 11 August 2014 2:05pmAnd that, old boy, is the key question --Good. We can now start to find out which officials at Malaysian Airlines showed a lack of duty of care and authorised a civilian airliner to fly over a war zone in which several military airliners had been shot down in the weeks prior to this tradgedy.
It's a very good question not because the Malaysia Airlines did something other airlines weren't doing on a regular basis but because MH17 had NEVER BEFORE during the Kiev military operation in southeast Ukraine flown the route it took on July 17.There's a further question that demands serious inquiry asap.
I understand it was the UKRAINIAN air traffic control that then FURTHER altered the plane's trajectory by some 200 miles, taking it deep into the conflict zone, AND, once MH17 was on the approach to it, insisted it lower its altitude by 3000 feet, just enough to have made it even more vulnerable to a missile attack or a stray missile meant for the Ukrainian military plane, which was trailing it (if that, and not an air-to-air missile from the Ukranian military jet, was what downed that plane and killed all those people in it).
Revenant13, 11 August 2014 2:24am
Oh come now folks, this is the mad monk's moment of destiny, one allowing him to don the garb of appearing prime ministerial and statesman-like.
The fate of the victims and the outcome of any investigation are entirely irrelevant as long as phony tony gets to look as though he's strutting the world stage.
Odious little creep he is: mouthing off about responsibility before the facts are clear or before the dead are recovered only paints him as a crass boor.
Stopthelies -> Revenant13, 11 August 2014 4:26am
Quite honestly, how does "bringing justice" to the families of victims really help them?
Russia, Kiev, Russian speaking Ukraine, all v interesting politically, I'm sure.
But for most people, thankfully, there's more to loving a family member than revenge, and so called "justice".
Isn't there meant to be a budget emergency, debt and deficit crisis and home grown terrorism to throw millions at??
BILLYTANSEY, 11 August 2014 2:50am
Good on you Tony. When you eventually find out who was responsible whether it was a fighter plane, missile or bomb, keep us informed, don't keep it a secret.
When you seek justice and punishment for the vile crime kill two or three
birds with one stone and persue the villians who shot down the Iranian passenger plane a few years ago. Then again how about the passenger plane which was shot down by Ukraine only a few years ago. May as well clean up the whole backlog whilst you are at it.
Personally would prefer you to start looking after your own country instead of posturing on the world stage. Look after the living the dead can look after themselves.Ertimus -> BILLYTANSEY, 11 August 2014 9:11am
The captain of the USS Vincennes was given an Legion of Merit citation for downing IR655.
The Mad Monk might just want to give an order of Australia to the people responsible for the downing of MH17.Oskar Jaeger, 11 August 2014 2:51am
I do not care for or about Abbott's domestic politics in Australia, but he is right insofar as MH17 is concerned. That crime against humanity must and will not remain unsolved and unpunished.
Peace_Brothers -> Oskar Jaeger, 11 August 2014 2:58am
You're right of course. Even if people jump to conclusions (as they have) and perhaps blame the wrong people (as they might have). Let's make sure it does not go unpunished. You already know who was going to get the blame, so let's move forward with the punishment...
A bit like Kristallnacht, perhaps?
Peace_Brothers, 11 August 2014 2:54am
All this fine talk about "punishing the guilty" and yet it seems that neither Australia, Malaysia, or Holland have asked for the ATC tapes from Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk.
Malaysia wants the 'missing' Ukrainian ATC tapes
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260
And yet, as of 8 August the Ukraine ambassador to Malaysia indicated that no request had been made for the tapes.
He said that if a formal request was made by Malaysia or the international investigation team, then Ukraine would extend its cooperation.
At one point, the Ambassador seemed to question the significance of the ATC tapes, saying that "it is just the same as the flight data and cockpit voice recorders".
Aviation experts, however, point to the recordings as being another crucial layer of evidence...
jaybuoy, 11 August 2014 3:04am
Older_woman -> jaybuoy, 11 August 2014 3:51amwhat about reports that Ukrainian jets were responsible for the downing of this airliner... a full releasing of all the data is required..the blame for this tragedy is still open to conjecture..Our blundering leader would be best served to stfu until the full facts are elicited....
Then there are the alternative theories -- because right now, it all seems to be theory:Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17. It was Not a 'Buk' Surface to Air Missile
http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814Kiev Source: Ukraine Accidentally Shot Down MH17 During Exercises
http://www.infowars.com/kiev-source-ukraine-accidentally-shot-down-mh17-during-exercises/Older_woman, 11 August 2014 3:43am
Abbott has already decided who is guilty, even though there is no proof and the investigation has hardly commenced.
The Ukraine, the separatists, and the Russians all have the same Russian-produced missiles. There is already an alternative theory circulating on the internet that the bullet holes on the cockpit may indicate being shot by another airplane -- in this case, it would be the Ukraine -- rather than a missile.
Typical Tony. Forget evidence, make lots of noise, impose sanctions. What will you do if you're shown to be wrong?
thefinnigans1, 11 August 2014 4:43am
centerline , 11 August 2014 4:52am"We certainly anticipate tougher sanctions against Russia in the weeks ahead," he said.
Russia already put tougher sanction on Australia , due to the incompetence of these embarrassments we call a prime minister and his cronies.
Here is a high definition photo of a shot up cockpit panel. Larger round holes plus smaller rectangular holes.centerline -> centerline , 11 August 2014 4:53amForgot the link http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdfGerardio, 11 August 2014 6:38am
OK, we've got 500 Australian specialists on the other side of the world who've done about 2 days work in the paddock so far. The rest of the time I assume they are sitting around in pubs, lined up to visit Anne Frank's house, down the red light area of Amsterdam or smoking some legal pot in one of the many hash-cafes.
Nice work if you can get it.
Not to miss out, Abbott has grabbed the government jet and a bunch of highly paid flunkies and headed off to thank 'em all for whatever the fuck they've done so far.
Lots of people in uniforms adorned with heaps of 'cabbage' will be pointing at things and with Abbott nodding away like someone with Parkinson's for the photo op. Then, the families of the victims will be given free flights over to Holland so as to 'escort' the body-bits of their loved ones back to Australia, where Tony will get 38 more opportunities to appear at airports and in churches.But HARK!!! is that the sound of CHRISTIANS getting a hard time in Iraq that Tony hears? Well lets just get them battle-fucked soldiers who've done ten long years in Afghanistan already and chuck 'em back into Iraq. The Yanks are there already so that's a sure sign that everything will go REAL well.
Meanwhile off the coast of Western Australia, what's left of the defense force is searching for more plane wreckage.katy9wa -> Gerardio, 11 August 2014 8:23am
The search has been discontinued for about three or four days. Why are the AFP and ADF personnel not already home or on their way? If they have been kept there to provide a photo shoot and an audience for his chest thumping , that should be the last drop he is allowed to get away with squeezing out of this tragedy. The media put him up on a pedestal and he's doing his utmost to stay up there. They should bring him down. He want's to get Australia into a war . Any war. Anywhere. As long as he gets kudos he'll not care who gets killed. This man and his cohorts are dangerous.
struggler, 11 August 2014 6:56am
The Americans should be thankful that Tony wasn't the PM back in 1988 when they blasted a passenger plane out of the air, I'll bet Tony would have ripped them a new one, especially after he found out that the Captain responsible later received the
" Legion of Merit" for his service in the Gulf even tho his ship was in Iranian waters when it happened. Still,,,, perhaps its not too late for them to apologise.
If Tony finds out there is still no official US apology he could get on to it.
Lets all drop him a line and tell him what happened.Gerardio -> struggler, 11 August 2014 7:05am
Blasted a passenger jet out of the air and killed all aboard you say?
No apology even to this day you say?
Oh...but they were IRANIANS....um...shit happens.AussieLouis, 11 August 2014 7:55am
Now that a Canadian Ukrainian expert and others have testified that MH7 plain was shot by Ukrainian fighter jets, is the western media going to report this and would our dear Tony asked the Ukrainian government to pay?
I guess not!
Evgeny Petrov -> AussieLouis, 11 August 2014 7:58am
of course not. It was humanitarian murder, for democracy!!!
AussieLouis, 11 August 2014 7:58am
Now that a Canadian Ukrainian expert and others have testified that MH7 plain was shot by Ukrainian fighter jets, is the western media going to report this and would our dear Tony asked the Ukrainian government to pay?
I guess not!See these:
agent16356 -> AussieLouis, 11 August 2014 8:38am
I would hope to hear anything on the msm until they get the permission.
People in a democracy have the right to be kept ignorant.
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RT USA
Former Congressman Ron Paul said the US knows 'more than it is telling' about the Malaysian aircraft that crashed in eastern Ukraine last month, killing 298 people on board and seriously damaging US-Russian relations in the process.In an effort to inject some balance of opinion, not to mention pure sanity, into the ongoing debate over what happened to Malaysian Flight MH17, Ron Paul is convinced the US government is withholding information on the catastrophe.
"The US government has grown strangely quiet on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a Buk anti-aircraft missile," Paul said on his news website on Thursday.
Ron Paul to Obama: Let's just leave Ukraine alone!
Paul's comments are in sharp contrast to the echo chamber of one-sided opinion inside Western mainstream media, which has almost unanimously blamed anti-Kiev militia for bringing down the commercial airline. Incredibly, in many cases Washington had nothing to show as evidence to incriminate Russian rebels aside for references to social media.
"We've seen that there were heavy weapons moved from Russia to Ukraine, that they have moved into the hands of separatist leaders," said White House spokesman Josh Earnest. "And according to social media reports, those weapons include the SA-11 [Buk missile] system."
In another instance, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters "the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine, and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions." When veteran AP reporter Matthew Lee asked for proof, he was to be disappointed.
"I can't get into the sources and methods behind it," Harf responded. "I can't tell you what the information is based on." Lee said the allegations made by the State Department on Ukraine have fallen far short of "definitive proof."
Just days after US intelligence officials admitted they had no conclusive evidence to prove Russia was behind the downing of the airliner, Kiev published satellite images as 'proof' it didn't deploy anti-aircraft batteries around the MH17 crash site. However, these images have altered time-stamps and are from the days after the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Defense Ministry revealed, fully discrediting the Ukrainian claims.
In yet another yet-to-be explained event, Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet approaching the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. No acceptable explanation has ever been given by Kiev as to why this fighter aircraft was so close to the doomed passenger jet moments before it was brought down.
"[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane," Russian Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov demanded days after the crash.
Paul has slammed the United States, despite its arsenal of surveillance technologies at its disposal, for its failure to provide a single grain of evidence to solve the mystery of the Malaysian airliner.
"It's hard to believe that the US, with all of its spy satellites available for monitoring everything in Ukraine, that precise proof of who did what and when is not available," the two-time presidential candidate said.
"Too bad we can't count on our government to just tell us the truth and show us the evidence," Paul added. "I'm convinced that it knows a lot more than it's telling us."
Although no sufficient evidence has been presented to prove that the anti-Kiev militia was responsible for the downing of the international flight, such an inconvenient oversight has not stopped the United States and Europe from slapping economic sanctions and travel bans against Russia.
Moscow hit back, saying it would place a ban on agricultural imports from the United States and the European Union. Russia's tit-for-tat ban will certainly be felt, as food and agricultural imports from the US amounted to $1.3 billion last year, according to the US Department of Agriculture. In 2013, meanwhile, the EU's agricultural exports to Russia totaled 11.8 billion euros ($15.8 billion).
After the crash, Ron Paul was one of a few voices calling for calm as US officials were pointing fingers without a shred of evidence to support their claims. Paul has not been afraid to say the painfully obvious things the US media, for any number of reasons, cannot find the courage to articulate.
"They will not report that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor Yanukovych," Paul said. "Without US-sponsored 'regime change,' it is unlikely that hundreds would have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have happened."
Paul also found it outrageous that Western media, parroting the government line, has reported that the Malaysian flight must have been downed by "Russian-backed separatists," because the BUK missile that reportedly brought down the aircraft was Russian made.
"They will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons," he emphasized.
Bookworm Doe 10.08.2014 17:43
Too bad he didn't mention the OSCE observer
Michael Bociurkiw who was on scene within hours of it being shot down, and what he saw and photographed conclusive evidence that---the Malaysian plane had been hit by very, very strong machine-gun fire, not by ground-based missile-fire.
Both sides of the cockpit where the pilots sat were riddled with huge bullet holes. This is so disgusting, and to think the US has been behind Kiev's planning every step of the way is repulsive to me as an American.
What if the Cockpit Audio Recorder was full of non-stop frightening talk? Why haven't we heard it?
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