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This week brought a complete reassessment of the role of SU-25 in the MH17 tragedy. Discussion following post Just the baseless hypothesis of an uninformed amateur, nothing more ( vineyardsaker.blogspot.com ) Aug 4, 2014 is probably the most informative.
Among the best findings for the period were:
Aug 03, 2014 | Consortiumnews
US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraftBy Haris Hussain - 7 August 2014 @ 8:20 AM
KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.
This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.
In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame”.
This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.
In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.
They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country’s core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.
“We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.
“At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April,” the statement read.
Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.
Parry’s conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.
Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.
Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.
In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days”.
“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.
Parry had said that Bociurkiw’s testimony is “as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.
“That’s powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later,” Parry had said.
Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.
“You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.
“The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly.”
He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.
“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.
“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.
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kirill , August 8, 2014 at 9:12 pmSo the contents of the Malaysian airliner black boxes are still not being released. Something smells. I think the reason that the west is not having an easy time framing Russia for the shoot down is because Russia has all the relevant ATC traffic recorded from that day. This included communications from the flight controllers and the pilots none of which is encrypted. I recall the US was boasting that it had the ability to record almost any communication. Existing electronic warfare capacity in Russia is not exactly lacking.marknesop , August 8, 2014 at 9:37 pmThere is no reason for Russia to release these intercepted communications because it puts pressure on the the USA and its minions to avoid making claims that can be instantly debunked. It is up to Kiev to hand over the ATC tapes it seized and not for Russia to give its secret recordings. If the west was having its way, there would have been "substantiation" of its initial claims being delivered. They can't even release the contents of perfectly intact black boxes.
That's possible, of course, but I don't think the west is very worried that Russia has recordings of the conversations between the Ukrainian ATC and the Malaysian flight – if Moscow had those, it would have released them by now or at least pointedly noted that it was in possession of such evidence. Introducing it early on would leave the west scrambling, whereas if it waited until the west introduced their evidence and then released their own, the west would announce the Russian evidence was fabricated and probably be widely believed. No, I think the delay is because there is something incriminating on the cockpit voice recorder. The pilot may have seen Ukrainian aircraft converging on him, or who knows what, but the fact that the results have still not been released although the analysts initially announced they could be finished in as little as 24 hours is very disturbing.kirill, August 8, 2014 at 10:13 pmThe only instance in which the west may fear what Russia has in the way of evidence would be if it is considering destroying the evidence and reporting that the voice recorder contained no usable data because it had malfunctioned, or reporting that some anonymous technician had accidentally destroyed the recording while trying to recover it, something like that. And that is unlikely, because then they would have a tough time explaining the lengthy delay. I don't think anyone would accept "We didn't know how to tell you". But if Russia produced recordings after the west tried the "we may never know" cop-out, it would be devastating.
In my personal opinion, the west is stalling until emotional reaction to the destruction of MH-17 is not so raw and is less likely to produce a public outcry, perhaps when another major event comes along that will distract public attention, whereupon they will quietly slip in the "inconclusive" verdict and then say "Look!!!! look over there!!!"
Russia is not going to release its signal intelligence contents for the general public. If Russia released this data, the west would have time to construct some counter-story. Having it sprung in case of a bald faced lie leaves the liars scrambling and looking bad.a norwegian down under , August 8, 2014 at 9:53 pmfrom der Spiegel (with the normal bias):kirill , August 8, 2014 at 10:10 pm
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/mh17-fakten-zu-flugschreiber-bergungsmission-schuldfrage-a-984937.htmlNormally a provisionary conclusion would be published in the first four weeks, but due to the complicated situation in the Ukraine it will be delayed some weeks, including their opinion on the black box data.
That's a convenient excuse. The black box data is not tied in any way to the crash site investigation. It can be released a priori to any final report and often is. Especially with sensational cases.a norwegian down under, August 8, 2014 at 9:34 pmAs usual good stuff from consortiumnews.com:marknesop, August 8, 2014 at 9:48 pm
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/08/was-putin-targeted-for-mid-air-assassination/Yes, this theory was advanced almost immediately after the crash, as reporters quickly noted that Putin had been airborne at about the same time and enterprising journalists dug up visual comparisons of the two aircraft, although Consortium News provides much more detail. But if any U.S. analysts are actually considering alternative explanations, they are not likely to be officially acknowledged so long as they shift the blame on to Kiev, or else the whole rationale for Stage 3 sanctions will collapse.Southerncross , August 8, 2014 at 10:07 pmThis theory is at least possible, though, given how batshit crazy the current leadership of Ukraine is. Nothing should be considered too nutty for them to try, and by God if baiting Putin did not achieve the desired result of motivating a Russian attack, assassinating Putin most certainly would have. The main drawback that makes me skeptical of this theory is that they had a cover story ready to go so quickly, complete with American corroboration and lots of fake evidence. The Ukrainian leadership is just not that smart.
Boris Gritsenko advocated exactly that. You would not expect Gritsenko to speak in that way unless Langley were in agreement with him.marknesop, August 8, 2014 at 10:30 pmMaybe tacitly, but there have been several Ukrainian political figures who have gone off-script in spectacular fashion and flushed their supporters with deep embarrassment. Langley would not publicly stand by a call from Grishenko to assassinate the president of a major world power, whether or not they privately agreed with him, and its hard for me to believe they would go along with such a secret plan in partnership with the Ukrainian leadership because they are just too unstable and would be just liable to announce American participation to the world. Langley likes its deniability.cartman, August 9, 2014 at 12:03 amKiev was out with its evidence, what, the very next day? The ginned-up recording of the rebels confiding to their Moscow controller that they had shot down an airliner? That's awfully fast to react to a complete and horrible surprise, and the USA did not even pause to consider it, just went with it right down the line, unconditional support. That carries enormous risk, especially – again – in the case of partners as far around the bend as Kiev is.
I would say Lysenko went off script when he started blabbering about black box details.marknesop , August 9, 2014 at 8:47 amThe Achilles heel is that the CIA did not properly vet these people. Or it was impossible to find a loyal Ukrainian who wasn't a loudmouth.
Yes, that's exactly the example I was thinking of.yalensis , August 9, 2014 at 2:59 amYeah, that's my main objection to the "Putin plane" theory, namely the fact that the Ukies had their cover story up and running on "social media" within a couple of hours of the crash. Even if they had a "propagandist team" on pager call and had them scramble something ASAP, it still would have taken them at least a day even to put together their youtube videos and stuff. It doesn't take that long to upload a video, true, but try to imagine the sense of panic, and the time wasted trying to call people, get everybody together, coming up with a plan, communicating that plan, organizing everybody, doing the technical work, etc.Fern, August 9, 2014 at 5:00 am(Just editing and stitching together the telephone intercepts would have taken a highly technical person at least half a day, IMHO.)
The Ukes just don't have that kind of A-team that could scramble a project that quickly. And I keep coming back to that fact that the first edited telephone intercept that they put out there (some rebel conversations stitched together, along the lines of, "Oh lookie, we shot down a plane…") had a file-creation date of July 16. I KNOW that could just be a wrong setting on the computer clock and can be explained away.
OR, it could be the one clue left behind in an otherwise perfect crime. Namely, the Ukies had their cover story ready to roll the day before the incident, but then when they posted their "evidence" on social media, some idiot, in his haste, forgot to change the timestamp.
Like I said, NOT the A-team in action.
It is possible that the atrocity was planned for July 16th but, for some reason, had to be deferred and the time 'stamp' thingie just got overlooked.yalensis, August 9, 2014 at 6:04 amThat is a very plausible possibility.Al , August 9, 2014 at 2:11 amIs this actually allowed on a show that it watched by lots of kids?marknesop, August 9, 2014 at 9:10 amBart Simpson writing "Putin-Huylo" all over the school blackboard.
The Simpsons opener (Aug 7)
###I looked up the origins of the phrase and apparently it started off as a chant by Metallist-Karkhiv fans back in 2013 and then was picked up by the Maidan lot.
Neuters: NATO chief urges Russia to pull back troops, 'step back from the brink'
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nato-chief-urges-russia-pull-back-troops-step-075604460.html#gNF0SqR"… Shortly after Rasmussen spoke, rebels brought down a Ukrainian Mig-29 fighter plane and a military helicopter sent into the conflict zone to pick up casualties, the Ukrainian military said.
The Mig-29 came down near Horlivka, about 100 km (60 miles) from the border with Russia. Its crew managed to eject from the aircraft, military information spokesman Vladyslav Seleznyov told Interfax news agency.
The Mi-8 helicopter made a forced landing, military spokesman Oleksiy Dmytrashkivsky said, and its crew was believed to be safe. He said he could give no more details for fear of giving away the location of the crew on the ground."
###I wonder if this is one of the recently 'refurbished' Mig-29s that was in storage and miraculously brought back to flight without any spare parts the Ukraine could not previously afford from Russia? No doubt spares came from Poland.
and finally,
Neuters: U.S. says it would view Russia aid deliveries to Ukraine as invasion
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/u-says-view-russia-aid-deliveries-ukraine-invasion-172240752–finance.html#wAx6TH9"Any bid by Russia to deliver humanitarian aid into Ukraine would be viewed as an invasion, the United States said on Friday, warning that Moscow voiced similar concerns for civilians before its brief 2008 war with Georgia….
… Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin on Tuesday described the humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine as "disastrous."
"We would like to send a convoy with Russian humanitarian assistance … with the accompaniment of the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross)," Churkin said. "We stand ready to act with optimal transparency, let the international community monitor the convoys, transport routes and distribution of aid."
He said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had written on Monday to U.N. humanitarian agencies, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the ICRC to request such a humanitarian mission in Ukraine…."
###It is surreal that Samantha Genocide Power, a journalist who made her name calling for military intervention in the Balkans to stop genocide and then was elevated in to office and placed on a pedestal, doesn't want any help coming from the Russians even under the aegis of the ICRC.
Let me guess, NATO says humanitarian response by Russia would be an invasion and Powers won't let the Red Cross in with the Russians. Solution? Send NATO in using R2P – Responsibility to Protect – to occupy and bring and effective and equitable peace that would leave Kiev fully in charge to filter out all the non-Kiev loyalist?
Who needs Russian propaganda when the US does almost all of their work for them already? The only good thing about this is that her behavior and hypocrisy here will follow her around for the rest of her life which she won't be able to shake off. What a Class A moron.
I suppose that Simpsons attempt at humour is no worse than our constantly referring to Poroshenko as a pig without using his real name. Still, that's the last time I'll watch the Simpsons – admittedly not much of a terrifying prospect for either me or them since I almost never watch TV anyway, the only reason we have one is to watch DVD's. It's pretty juvenile, but as I said earlier, I'm perfectly happy for the west to clutch the Ukrainian tarbaby ever closer because it is a disaster in the making and such a wreck now that it would take nearly every bit of currency the combined wealth of the west could scrape together just to restore it to what it was before. And the west Ukrainians and Kievsters have such a monumental case of entitlement that they appear to believe they do not have to do anything – that the west will come in eventually and bustle around and do a tidy and throw money in all directions, and presto! Kiev will become Copenhagen. The battle for Ukraine has deteriorated into a situation in which the west – chiefly the USA – has staked everything on not losing; no effort will be spared in the pursuit of winning, for the sake of being able to declare victory rather than any real feeling of having won something worthwhile. The west knows POrca is a venal money-grubbing oligarch just looking out for fattening his own bankroll, and couldn't care less. He's just a means to an end, and I suppose they reason that if he's not perfect he can be maneuvered out later in the regime-change game they fancy they now know how to play so well.Al, August 9, 2014 at 9:32 amI don't realistically see any way the rebels can win, even though they are putting up a hell of a fight, because all the help is being delivered to their enemies while the west stands over Ukraine and growls that nobody be allowed to help the rebels. If it was anything like an even fight they would have won already because the Uke army is useless, although perhaps that is owing to the presence of so many untrained personnel who have just been hustled into uniform. But since that's true of the rebels as well, I like to think it's because the rebels follow a noble cause while the Uke army is simply carrying out the will of the master without any real belief in it. But if Kiev wins a military victory, as I have asked so many times before, what then? Is the eastern region going to settle down and be pacified and go back to paying its tithe to Kiev and obediently knuckling its forehead and answering in Ukrainian on the rare occasion it's spoken to? I doubt it. A divide has been forged in the country that can never be resolved by a political solution imposed upon it by Kiev, and the people will never, ever forget that the army charged with their protection instead hunted them like animals and called them subhumans for no other reason than they would not obey. That has never since the industrial revolution been considered a politically acceptable reason for a leader killing his own citizens, and it's not acceptable now.
I don't realistically see any way the rebels can win, ..marknesop, August 9, 2014 at 12:35 pmTo repeat a point I've seen other commenters make, the Rebels don't need to 'win'. They simply need not to lose. A bit like the Battle of Little Britain. We have all pointed out at some point over the last few weeks that this is a war of attrition. The Ukes have become better organized and seem to have increasing amounts of weaponry, but this is balanced against the quality of the recruits/press-ganged and that their most experience soldiers have been severly depleted.
Add the spreading anger against forced mobilization and inability to get enough useful bodies to the east and it looks like all the Rebels have to do is hold out and ultimately protect their manpower (which is their tactic). It won't then take much to cause the Uke's to collapse totally in panic and disarray. All this stuff others have said already. Who'll crack first short of a behind the scenes deal.
Yes, I agree with all that – it just looks as though the federalists will not be able to hold out much longer, and the Ukies are definitely making progress cutting them off from their supply lines and the possibility of reinforcement from without. The Ukie army just keeps hammering away, and although it must be on its last legs it only needs to hold out until one minute after the rebel surrender. Still, there's some hope that increased recruitment from within Donetsk could turn the tide. There are enough people in Donetsk to outnumber the entire Ukie army two to one without even breathing hard.Al, August 9, 2014 at 1:38 pmI wonder how they explain that after their victories, like in Slavyansk, all of the dead are Ukrainians?
Oh, I forgot – they just visit the Russian Phony Passport locker, and throw a few around, some Russian money….
I don't know. I can make a number of wild assed guesses. We've learned to take Kiev's claims with a large does of salt. Strelkov may play it safe, but he is not above playing psychological games, i.e. pretending the rebel's positions are weaker than they really are. What we also know is that he will have already prepared the next few steps in advance, my guess would be kill zones to let large numbers of Uke troops in before wiping them out totally and then countering to get them on the run. I'd used buried landmines/IEDs as they would save on the ammo.NorthernStar, August 9, 2014 at 1:17 pmWe've already seen what happened to those Uke units that claimed to have already got in to Donetsk. The problem here is that they now expect to be lured in and then hit. Starving the remaining residents of the Donetsk out, which may well be a strong temptation for Kiev, cannot be glossed over in any way. It would in fact further boost Russian demands for humanitarian intervention. The longer the West refuses this, the worse the situation becomes and the more obvious that the West simply doesn't give a f*$k and is quite happy for people to die on tv… Unless it is some kind of double bluff. I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the Rebels even if it does look a bit ropey.
Even in the worst case scenario of a total rebel collapse, it doesn't solve any of Kiev's problems, it only adds to them because there will be no way Russia will be saddled with the costs and the tax base is already stuffed. They can't have the Russians paying if the Russians get no influence. Promises simply won't cut it without something signed in blood and held to by Washington.
What we do know is that the rebels get a little bit more than enough of weapons, but not of men. The tap opens a little more, or a little less depending on up to date intel. I do have a question for NATO though. They have talked about the risk of 'Russian intervention/invasion' but this seems to be about sending in ground troops. So what about if Russia took a leaf out of NATOs book and launched a massive cruise missile strike on fixed Uke army positions, hqs, arsenals etc.? NATO could only respond after the fact. The rebels could ride in after the attacks to make the Ukes run. But, NATO is probably prepared for this as it would be a fairly logical thing to do. I do wonder if there are any other Judo moves, maybe an Rebel attack from behind enemy lines…
I strongly suspect that if it happens, we will all(!) be surprised, but it certainly won't be half-assed. It will be full Russian monty, and then some.
"It is surreal that Samantha Genocide Power, a journalist who made her name calling for military intervention in the Balkans to stop genocide and then was elevated in to office and placed on a pedestal, doesn't want any help coming from the Russians even under the aegis of the ICRC."ThatJ, August 9, 2014 at 8:51 pm
But you must bear in mind that Samantha has to be on the same page as her colleague
National Security Advisor Susan Rwanda Rice
http://open.salon.com/blog/almariam/2012/12/10/susan_rice_and_africas_unholy_trinityThe physical war relies on public opinion. That's what I meant, sorry.marknesop , August 9, 2014 at 10:08 pmWell, I could have said that better; it was not directed at you, and it was not my intention to demand an apology. It is simply infuriating to me that people are so gullible and stupid that they will believe anything they read in social media, and can it truly be called a "war" if it is nothing more than telling lies and getting the ignorant to believe them because it suits their belief systems? A propaganda war, maybe, but how must it feel to achieve victory by smearing your opponent until everyone believes he is a blackguard and knave? That's not war – it's politics.Al says: , August 9, 2014 at 7:12 amA good example is Kiev preparing the ground for their explanation of how MH-17 came to have a bunch of 30mm holes around the wreckage of the cockpit, if indeed there is such damage – it was the rebels, shooting at the crash site with their artillery to try to blame Kiev.
Because they somehow knew MH-17 was not shot down with an SA-11 missile at all, is that what you mean? Otherwise, 30mm holes in the cockpit would not make any sense, would they?
I'm afraid there's more bad news on that front, Kiev – although the BMP's do have a 30mm gun and it is possible some of those have fallen into rebel hands, the ammunition is not interchangeable with the naval and air variants although it is the same size cartridge case. I'm not sure if experts will be able to tell anything from just the holes, but I'll bet there are other clues inside the cockpit, if anyone ever gets to examine it. Anyone who is not motivated by "Glory to Ukraine, right or wrong" thinking, that is.
The next batshit conspiracy theory from Chicken Kiev – The rebels were trying to shoot down an Aeroflot airliner but the unit misunderstood one town with another!Al, August 9, 2014 at 8:19 amMoscow Crimes: Ukraine Says Rebels Mistook Doomed Flight MH17 for Aeroflot Plane
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-says-rebels-mistook-doomed-flight-mh17-for-aeroflot-plane/504793.html"…Separatists were "ordered" to position a Buk anti-aircraft missile near the village of Pervomaisk in eastern Ukraine, but because the fighters were Russian, not local, they confused two settlements with the same name and less than 100 kilometers apart, Nalyvaichenko said in a statement by his agency.
The error was crucial in two regards, according to Nalyvaichenko: It brought the fighters under the flight path of MH17, instead of Aeroflot, and also meant that the missile was fired from rebel-controlled territory instead of the other village located in a region controlled by government troops, he said.
"From the location that had been intended originally, the Aeroflot passenger plane was to be hit so that it would have fallen on territory controlled by the armed forces," Nalyvaichenko was quoted as saying by Ukraine's Liga Novosti news agency…."
###
The only interesting elements is that Kiev claims that military aircraft in the vicinity of MH17 were Russian and that they were there in the first place. This is something new. This lends credibility to Carlos the Borisopol ATC ('Spainbuca' on Twitter) who said he saw two military aircraft nearby and who has disappeared totally.
This is Kiev doing its best to create a new narrative to facts that are now undeniable, probably due to the ATC tapes and the black boxes. It's looking very, very flaky and suspicious for Kiev to come out with this before any other information is publicly released.
Uh, oh. Maybe this is why Kiev has jumped>?marknesop, August 9, 2014 at 8:41 amNew Straits Times: Malaysia wants the 'missing' Ukrainian ATC tapes
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260"On suggestions that MH17 was brought down by an air-to-air missile fired from an Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot and finished off with cannon fire from the fighter's internally-mounted Gsh-301 30mm cannon, Humennyi said there's a rational explanation.Al"The bulletholes these theorists said came from the fighter could have come from any 30mm weapon used by the rebels."
And there's your explanation for why Kiev continued to shell the crash site without letup, and made sure there was a continuous battle going on in the area despite official soothing noises about a ceasefire. They're going to go with the 30mm holes in the wreckage being produced after the crash. And it looks like the west will let them get away with that explanation unless there's something on the tapes which reports Uke aircraft maneuvering to close aggressively (there's usually a safety box around an airliner unless you are specifically tasked in escort) or even shooting, although the latter is unlikely because everyone in the cockpit would be killed instantly.
Which reminds me of something Strelkov reported, back when there was that red herring about some of the bodies not being fresh and there being a bad smell like they had been dead for some time. I think we can discount that as someone's mistaken perceptions, but he did say that there was no doubt the pilots had been alive, that the cockpit was "bathed in their blood".
August 9, 2014 at 9:18 amI still don't buy the Su-25 30mm fugue cannon theory in D minor* and I would guess his comments are more about having a story out there rather than any recognition of the theory.Total silence still from NATO who had AWACS flying along the Black Sea from Romania, the Baltic and other assets who would for sure have picked up any other squawks or military assets. It is deafening. Is this a conspiracy to cover up a crime/accident? There are plenty of people who would be in the loop from a/c crew, to the ground stations and intel officers. All of them would have to be sat on pretty heavily. If it came out, it would be the worst PR for NATO.
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o
Maybe it should be Kiev's new national anthem of eeeeeevil!
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in July a Malaysia Airlines plane, Flight MH17, was brought down over Ukraine by a missile the US believes was fired by pro-Russia separatists.
Ishowerdaily ID2888947. 09 August 2014 9:10pmIt's only odd if you believe a single word that's been written about Ukraine. Did you know their svoboda national security chief resigned to concentrate on coordinating volunteer battalions?
Nicole Bresht Ishowerdaily, 09 August 2014 9:45pm
RedLenin ID2888947 , 09 August 2014 10:04pmIn other words, the Ukrainian SS legions are on the match.
Germany's big problem is the Kiev government in Ukraine wants to block Russian gas in order to starve Russia of foreign currency. The fact that that will literally floor the German economy somehow doesn't seem to register in Kiev.Today Putin sacked over a dozen senior government officials and replaced them with hard-line hawks. The Russian intervention is coming.
This is how the Russian's view things:-
Ishowerdaily -> TheCountOfMontenegro, 09 August 2014 10:15pm
And who exactly do you think my ilk are? Are you saying my statement about Parubiy is factually inaccurate?
Ukraine is turning into a failed state in front of our eyes, and it started with the US driven regime change. If you really want I'll post links to videos of fascists in Kiev attacking trade union meetings, gay clubs and anti war meetings with impunity.
Do you believe the US and European governments value human life above the self perceived interests of their state? Seems to me if anything their current policy doctrine, if it has any rational basis, is to present an image of irrationality. To what end I don't know but I great it's not going to end well.
Czechlander -> ponott, 10 August 2014 3:47am
Ukraine was fiven Novorossia by the Bolsheviks in 1924, then it was given Galicia and Bessarabia in 1939, Carapathian Ruthenia in 1945, and Crimea in 1954. Take away those and what is left?
Ukraine has sent her army into Novorossia to fight a classic invasion of a foreign country, replete with bombing cities, chasing the attacked country's civilians en mass off their native land, destroying their economy and threatening widespread persecution of those it deems disloyal. To have this actually happening in Europe is mind staggering. Only fascists act like that.
theonionmurders -> Bosula, 10 August 2014 8:40am
The EU seemed concerned enough last year to commission research warning of the institutional racism in Western Ukraine, before mysteriously removing it from their website this year.
This is why the regions are itching to leave.
(It probably has to do with the giant portrait of Bandana displayed by Svoboda followers on p.233, the Right Sector advert for an ultra nationalist summer school for children on p.234, the touch-lit neo-fascist parades in Kiev on p.236, posters glorifying racist assaults on minorities on p.240, and the state sanctioned mass march in commemoration of Waffen-SS Galizien Division on p.245)
Kiev has demonstrated where its sympathies lie already at Odessa and Mariupol.
seen2empires -> Jackhigh, 09 August 2014 10:01pm
Not widely reported in the Western media - Russia and Iran have signed a $20bn oil deal bypassing American sanctions.
Again, as in a case with a fresh Russian-Chinese SWAP deal - without any US$ present.
Russia is going to get 500,000 barrels of Iranian oil a day in exchange for "construction of power plants, grids, supply of machinery, consumer goods and agriculture products".
Also, Russia has just announced that it will be trading in food sector with the former Soviet Asian republics such as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc + Latin American countries.
Seems like O'Bomber is loosing on all the fronts.
Will he initiate more wars and murders? White House is going nuts in the past couple days.
Tasselhoff, 09 August 2014 9:10pm
So Russian humanitarian aid is verboten while US drones killing civilians are fine. I'm not sure I understand international law. Does it just say "The US is omnipotent"?
Hanwell123, 09 August 2014 9:15pm
dogging , 09 August 2014 10:27pmHow bizarre that the Liberators of Bengahzi should deny that right to intervene to Russia who wants, of course, to protect her brothers, the millions of Russian speakers in East Ukraine. It has a sinister touch and you have to wonder at the nature of those running the show in Washington and Kiev taking what amounts to a serious risk of war. Governments shouldn't be so blasé about this; we're the buggers that will cop it!
Black boxes on shot down airline flight sent to UK. Findings released? Does that take days, or weeks or months or years?PekkaRoivanen -> dogging , 09 August 2014 10:39pmI read some where that preliminary findings will be announce on Tuesday. Last Tuesday. There is nothing in the news.In New Strait Times Online on 8.8.14:
ShiresofEngland , 09 August 2014 10:35pmEqually puzzling is the international investigation team's apparent snail's pace at requesting for the tapes from Ukrainian ATC.
Three weeks into the tragedy and the Ukrainians have yet to receive any formal request for the tapes.
The price Europe will pay. Let's take the sanction route through its logical conclusion. Tit-for-tat continues where trade near enough dries up between Russia and the EU.DELewes ShiresofEngland , 09 August 2014 10:40pmInter-connectivity of the fragile banking sector.
No fly zone over Russia for commercial EU airlines.
Finished products, cars, machinery, etc frozen out of the Russian market.
Russian gas cut off to Europe.No doubt this will hit Russia very hard as well, but that isn't the point of this post. Being a bit selfish here, but what is the point of throwing our economies back into recession or worse? Ukraine is a problem of the EU and the USA's making, and you would have to be very blinkered to think differently. Why all of a sudden are we being led that picking a fight with Russia is such a good idea? I don't go for the faux rubbish about the Crimea as it you want to play that game then we should have sanctions out against China until they leave Tibet (other examples are available).
Europe would do ourselves a big favour in telling those idiots in the EU, and Obama to go and take a hike.
Russia will be crippled, the EU can easily find energy elsewhere. In fact, current EU austerity is far more damaging than any trade disruption from Putin's folly.Avenos ShiresofEngland , 09 August 2014 10:42pmWhen this sanctions will hit country where i am -> we will have revolution. We are already on edge. I don't want escalations - it will bring nothing good in central / east / south Europe. If you don't believe - This can lead to fall of EU.
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09 Aug 2014 | telegraph.co.uk
The West is demonising President Putin when what set this crisis in motion were recklessly provocative moves to absorb Ukraine into the EU
Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, said: 'The modern Poles look at Russia today, they look at Vladimir Putin – and of course they want to bury themselves as deeply as possible in the comforting bosom of a German-led Europe.'
However dangerous this crisis becomes, it is the West which has brought it about; and our hysterical vilifying of Vladimir Putin is more reminiscent of that fateful mood in the summer of 1914 than we should find it comfortable to contemplate.
How odd it has been to read all those accounts of Europe sleepwalking into war in the summer of 1914, and how such madness must never happen again, against the background of the most misrepresented major story of 2014 – the gathering crisis between Russia and the West over Ukraine, as we watch developments in that very nasty civil war, with 20,000 Russian troops massing on the border.
For months the West has been demonising President Putin, with figures such as the Prince of Wales and Hillary Clinton comparing him with Hitler, oblivious to the fact that what set this crisis in motion were those recklessly provocative moves to absorb Ukraine into the EU.
There was never any way that this drive to suck the original cradle of Russian identity into the Brussels empire was not going to provoke Moscow to react – not least due to the prospect that its only warm-water ports, in Crimea, might soon be taken over by Nato.
And still scarcely reported here have been the billions of dollars and euros the West has been more or less secretively pouring into Ukraine to promote the cause: not just to prop up its bankrupt government and banking system, but to fund scores of bogus "pro-European" groups making up what the EU calls "civil society".
When the European Commission told a journalist that, between 2004 and 2013, these groups had only been given €31 million, my co-author Richard North was soon reporting on his EU Referendum blog that the true figure, shown on the commission's own "Financial Transparency" website, was €496 million. The 200 front organisations receiving this colossal sum have such names as "Center for European Co-operation" or the "Donetsk Regional Public Organisation with Hope for the Future" (the very first page shows how many are in eastern Ukraine or Crimea, with their largely Russian populations).
One of my readers heard from a Ukrainian woman working in Britain that her husband back home earns €200 a month as an electrician, but is paid another €200 a month, from a German bank, to join demonstrations such as the one last March when hundreds of thousands – many doubtless entirely sincere – turned out in Kiev to chant "Europe, Europe" at Baroness Ashton, the EU's visiting "foreign minister".
However dangerous this crisis becomes, it is the West which has brought it about; and our hysterical vilifying of Russia is more reminiscent of that fateful mood in the summer of 1914 than we should find it comfortable to contemplate.
Selected comments
G Blezard
Whos this "WE"? Seeing that this nation has no say in the matter of Eu policy .Nor will it as it is the antithesis of any UK foreign policy of any merit .
That the Eu by its very nature is a great trouble maker and will be the cause of the loss of any peace in Europe waking up to what it was doing in the Ukraine now is a bit too late as too the fact that most media coverage was FOR such moves while it was deluded/deceived by Russia's hibernation.
Its method of bribing nations to join it is its basic flaw and underlines its corrupting influence as too its economic folly. as all the nations willing to be bought will soon find out the true cost of joining this new immaculate conception.
c1sp > G Blezard
"WE", unfortunately, is the USA and it's colonies -- which we, the UK, have been reduced to. The EU is simply doing the US' bidding, because that is what it has been created for.
knave27
A worthwhile article from the Telegraph for a change. But the problem is that Putin with his stupid decision not to launch an invasion in the East of Ukraine to protect the population from the genocide ordered by Barry O' Kongo and executed by the freakshow of thugs and psychopaths that is the Kiev regime, has allowed the West to twist all facts, shoot down planes, hire snipers to shoot at both sides and yet Putin gets all the blame.
Without decisive action to end the crisis, Putin left himself open and vulnerable to the manipulation of the west that peaked when the Ukrainians, following orders from the White House, shot down MH 17 and launched a propaganda campaign against him from which he won't recover.
Choosing to go soft on Ukraine and the west only made things worse for him and for Russia, refusing to come to terms with the fact that the west will push to the end to remove him and Russia from the picture. Had he closed the open wound that is Eastern Ukraine none of this would have happened, and the wound will bleed him and Russia to death. So if anything, the Ukraine crisis proved Putin's incompetence and that his appeasement policy towards the west has failed.
Richard N
How refreshing to see a one in a thousand articles in the mainstream media that is not pumping out whatever lies and propaganda narrative is most recently issued by the US media control system.
How disgusting it is that our entire Western media - with very, very few exceptions such as Mr. Booker's article above - is now nothing at all to do with a free press - but is just a giant, centrally-controlled propaganda machine for the US.
Most Europeans oppose the anti-Russian sanctions and the ramping-up of the anti-Russian narrative in the entire Western media machine, all done to try to secure the success of the American land grab of Ukraine.
But despite this, every Western government - all US controlled puppets, of course - is gung-hu supporting this vilification of Putin and Russia, totally ignoring the opposition to all this warmongering amongst their own citizens.
I hope people remember the slavish obedience to the war-mongering US by all the liblabcon puppet leaders when the next election comes.
evad666 > Richard N
Ian56, linkOne really should not blame the US when it was the idiots in the EU Commission who triggered this crisis. After all they need a constant stream of new entrants to the EU to prop up their little Ponzi scheme.
I see that some people are mentioning the downing of MH17 in the comments on here. This is a run down of all the (credible) evidence that has been presented so far as to who and what shot down Malaysian Flight MH17 http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014...
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Aug 5, 2014 | Zero Hedge
Who was really responsible for the downing of flight MH17? Let's take a look at the facts...
On July 17th, 2014 two major events took place: Malaysian flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine, presumably by a missile, and Israel began a ground invasion of Gaza. Israel's invasion was granted an almost complete media blackout. The MH17 tragedy, however, got full coverage, and was immediately propagandized. (This in spite of the fact that far more civilians have been killed by Israel's bombardment of Gaza over the past few weeks.)
The U.S. government and the western media pinned the responsibility for the MH17 tragedy on Russia within minutes, long before investigators had time to even arrive at the scene, much less provide any actual conclusions. Then came an all out information war, with lies, omissions and disinformation coming from all sides.
The geopolitical implications of this event should not be underestimated. If this was ever in doubt, the fact that Obama just sent military advisers to Ukraine to help Kiev in its assault against the east should make it very clear. Depending on how much mileage Washington can get out of it, the downing of flight MH17 could end up being extremely pivotal.
Anyone who knows their history, knows that media coverage of events like these often lay the psychological groundwork for war. Consider the sinking of the Lusitania for example on 5/7/1915 (or the murder archduke Ferdinand in 1914). These combined with the Zimmermann Telegram (which was dispatched on 1/16/1917) pushed US public opinion over the tipping point, and on 4/6/1917 the United States declared war on Germany.
It is worth noting that though the U.S. denied it at the time, later diving expeditions revealed that the Lusitania was indeed smuggling war munitions at the time that was sunk (as Germany had asserted from the beginning). Of course, by the time the truth was known it was far too late for the 116,000 Americans who were killed in that conflict.
So who was REALLY responsible for the downing of flight MH17?
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Ian56
Who benefits?
- Why was MH71 diverted to fly over a war zone? This couldn't have been done by Russia or the rebels.
- Where did the Buk anti-aircraft system supposedly used by the rebels come from?
- How was this supposed BUK anti-aircraft launcher linked up to a radar system in Russia? (It couldn't have been a radar system in Eastern Ukraine, the rebels don't have a radar system.)
- If this had been done why haven't the CIA reported intercepted radio traffic between a BUK anti-aircraft missile launcher in Ukraine and a radar system in Russia?
- Why did the CIA/Pentagon say that they obtained a lock on a radar system being activated in Eastern Ukraine when the rebels don't have radar (or at least not a radar system in Eastern Ukraine)? The only operational radar systems in Eastern Ukraine are possessed by Kiev forces.
- Why is spainboca now incommunicado?
The case for Kiev having downed the plane is very simple:-
They had the necessary equipment and trained personnel to shoot down the plane.
They have the motive which is to provide the excuse to get the US to be more overtly involved in the civil war (which Kiev is currently losing) and to get the the US to provide heavy weaponry - planes, helicopter gunships, missiles etc. or even to provide ground troops for the invasion of Eastern Ukraine.
Debunking the thunderstorm theory for why MH17 diverted from it's normal flight path for 17th July
The latest explanation for the plane diverting off it's normal route, offered by pro Kiev supporters, is because of thunderstorms in the path of it's normal route.
This explanation does not stand up to scrutiny.
MH17 was near Warsaw at 14:44 Ukraine time (EEST, 3 hours ahead of GMT).
It did not start it's diversion until it entered Ukrainian airspace (see above maps of flight paths).
There were no thunderstorms in Kiev on 17th July.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/UKKK/2014/7/17/DailyHistory.html
There were thunderstorms in the Odessa area.
These thunderstorms ended by 13:27 EEST. I.E. well before MH17 entered Ukrainian airspace and thus there was no reason for the pilot to divert course because of thunderstorms.
The weather in Odessa on 17th July
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/UKOO/2014/7/17/DailyHistory.html?MR=1
Radar contact was lost at 16:15 EEST over Donetsk.The reason MH17 diverted from it's normal path was not because of any thunderstorms.
Some CIA analysts cite US satellite photos suggesting the missile that downed Malaysian Airlines MH17 was fired by Kiev's troops
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/Updates 7/20
Zaporizhzhia is around 200km North East of Odessa and next door to Donetsk.
The thunderstorms in Zaporizhzhia ended between 3pm and 3:30pm local time.
This is 2 hours after the thunderstorms ended in Odessa and about an hour before MH17 arrived in the area.
So MH17 diverted north INTO the path of possible thunderstorms and into an area with more recent thunderstorm activity, instead of flying a more southerly course nearer to Odessa. Why did it do this?Weather for Zaporizhzhia on 17th July
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/UKDE/2014/7/17/DailyHistory.html?Crashed MH17 flight 'was 300 miles off typical course'
Why did Ukraine Air Traffic Control send MH17 into a war zone?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.htmlWhy did the Kiev authorities not issue proper safety instructions after the Kiev military transport plane was shot down on 14th July?
Did they want a civilian plane to be shot down over Donetsk?
http://cjchivers.com/post/92236272756/a-catastrophically-insufficient-restriction-thisUpdates 7/21
Friday July 4th:- Kiev forces deploy BUK anti-aircraft missile launcher, designation 321 or 327, near Slovensk. Photo taken by Dimitry Lovetsky of AP.
Western media are reporting that more or less the whole area of Donetsk has activity by Donetsk militia forces. This is true.
Donetsk and Lugansk declared independence from Ukraine on May 11th after overwhelming support in a referendum.
http://rt.com/news/158276-referendum-results-east-ukraine/
Donetsk and Lugansk then requested Kiev to withdraw all of their forces from these regions.
Kiev refused and instead launched an invasion with air strikes and ground troops.The battles in Donetsk are flowing back and forth, so without detailed maps of which side held which bits of Donetsk on the day that MH17 flew over, it is impossible to say which sides troops were in control of the area that the CIA reported the missile launch came from.
N.B. The CIA/Pentagon also reported they had a lock on a radar system being activated in Donetsk. This could only have come from Kiev's forces as the rebels do not have an independent radar system. (To date Kiev or the US have offered no evidence that the Rebels do have (or have access to) a radar system that could be linked to the single BUK launcher in the rebels possession. An independent radar system is required for a BUK to hit a target above 30,000 feet).
The radar system does not have to be in the immediate vicinity of the missile launcher, it could be say 20km away from it.
John Kerry Says the Rebels Downed MH17 In Ukraine. How Can He Know?
Questions For John Kerry
http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/07/john-kerry-says-rebels-downed-mh17-in.htmlUkrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash by Russian Radar
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
'Why did Ukraine SU-25 fly same path as MH17, simultaneously at same altitude?' - Russian Military
http://youtu.be/EEbiSRFYTZYWhat Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/Updates 07/22
10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash
http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/
They are good questions.Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
US & allies rehash old talking points but show no hard evidence.Talking points that have become irrelevant and are highly suspicious given that no evidence has been shown to back them up.
The only evidence so far presented by the US and Kiev has been demonstrably shown to be fake.
Special Briefing by the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation on the crash of the Malaysian Boeing 777 in the Ukrainian air space, July 21, 2014
Detailed flight path, map, satellite images, pictures and radar data.
http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/ECD62987D4816CA344257D1D00251C76From the above link.
Why did MH17 make a sudden detour out of the air corridor immediately before it was shot down?
N.B. The Russian radar pictures claim to show that MH17 flew 14km off course during this period.
This is a massive distance for a commercial airliner, which has to fly within very tight parameters over busy skies in Western Europe.The US and Europe are ignoring this hard evidence from Russia.
Updates 07/23
US: No Evidence of Direct Russian Link to Plane Downing
http://news.antiwar.com/2014/07/22/us-no-evidence-of-direct-russia-link-to-plane-downing/N.B. We cannot tell what exactly is in the "BUK" video used by Kiev and the US as "evidence" or where it was shot.
The most likely explanation is that this is a film of a Ukrainian army BUK, at an unknown location somewhere in Ukraine.Unfortunately the Malaysian authorities have decided to send the MH17 black boxes to a UK lab for analysis and not to a neutral country.
We may never know the true contents of the black boxes. The UK government is deeply committed to avoiding any evidence that Kiev is responsible for downing the plane and is seeking with the US to blame the rebels.Updates 07/29
All sorts of unconfirmed and somewhat conflicting rumors are circulating.
I have no idea which of these rumors are true (if any).
More information will come out in the fullness of time.Rumor 1: The CIA has satellite imagery of a surface to air missile being fired from territory controlled by the Kiev military which was within range to shoot down the plane. No supporting evidence is available that the video circulating is what it purports to be.
Rumor 2: A surface to air missile could not have caused the explosive decompression that is purportedly evidenced from the black box data. (Shrapnel fragments from the missile would be more than enough to bring down the plane, but would not cause explosive decompression. Evidence is presented from decompression tests using planes pressurized above 1 atmosphere on the ground.)
We do not yet know with any degree of confidence whether it was a surface to air missile or an air to air missile that shot down the plane (or even if something else might have happened).
Rumor 3: The Kiev military may have accidentally shot down the plane with a surface to air missile - Russian report.
Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.htmlFact 1: The Air Traffic Control tapes that were confiscated by the Kiev authorities have still not been released to either the international crash investigators or the media. They are rumored to have been given to US intelligence.
Fact 2: The international investigators have reported that the black boxes were not tampered with, prior to being handed over to them.
The black boxes are in a laboratory in the UK and are therefore subject to the whims of MI5/MI6.Fact 3: The US authorities (or Kiev) have not tried to dispute any of the detailed Russian evidence of what happened to MH17, which was presented to the public by Russia a week ago.
The US and Kiev authorities have not attempted to answer any of the 10 questions asked by Russia about the crash. (See the update above for 7/22.)Fact 4: It should only take a few days for preliminary findings from the black box evidence to be determined, but nothing has been published so far after nearly a week.
Is there something on them that the US/UK doesn't like?There are reports of the debris field being strewn over a distance of up to 30 miles. Satellite imagery will confirm or deny these reports.
We await the Russian version of the air accident report. I am pretty sure the Russians will be preparing one. They may wait until the international crash investigation team report on their findings.
Meanwhile the wholesale slaughter of civilians by Kiev in Eastern Ukraine continues. One recent report was of a retirement home being shelled and infirm elderly people in wheelchairs being murdered.
There are conflicting reports of the success or otherwise of Kiev's military campaign. They are certainly not having an easy time with pictures of burnt out Kiev armored equipment including tanks.
Kiev has launched a campaign to control the territory of the crash site. The international crash investigators have been significantly hampered by the fighting going on in the area and have been unable to visit the crash site.
Update 07/30
MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/
Excellent article on the evidence so far.
There are considerable doubts about the authenticity of Carlos the Kiev Air Traffic Controller alias @Spainbuca but everything else in the article is spot on.Update 08/05
Close up photo of the cockpit wreckage showing both entry AND exit holes on the same side of the plane
http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
A missile could not have caused this kind of damage (there would be entry holes on one side and exit holes on the other).The above photo and assessment comes from this article:-
Shocking Analysis of the 'Shooting Down' of Malaysian MH17
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/I am pretty sure the Russians will be looking at these same pictures and as above, are preparing their own crash report.
Flight MH17 - What You're Not Being Told
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-05/flight-mh17-what-youre-not-being-told
Update 08/06Explosive and Very Detailed Expert Analysis of the MH17 Downing
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/08/detailed-expert-analysis-of-mh17-downing.html
(Click on one of the download links to read the pdf report.)Any BUK surface to air missile strike on MH17 must have come from the Kiev military, most likely from a Ukrainian BUK position just south of Shakhtars'k (see the image below).
Updates 08/08
Malaysia wants the 'missing' Ukrainian ATC tapes from the Kiev authorities | New Straits Times
http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260Was MH17 brought down by a combination of an air to air missile and cannon fire from a Kiev military jet?
US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925
It would seem that the Malaysian papers at least are not believing a word of the ridiculous lies being put out by the US government and Western media and are trying to report the best evidence they can on what caused the crash.
We now have three (credible) theories based on evidence on how MH17 was brought down.
Previous Related Articles
They are not mutually exclusive and the truth might be a combination of one or more of them.
Awaiting further information.What's Next For Ukraine? Brzezinski suggests US supplies weapons for Ethnic Cleansing
http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/07/whats-next-for-ukraine-brzezinski.htmlThe winners & losers from Obama's Neocon Coup D'Etat in Ukraine
http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/03/putins-approval-ratings-are-70-while.htmlThe storyboard of the recent events in Ukraine - videos, pictures and articles
http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-storyboard-of-recent-events-in.html
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08 August 2014 08:51 | malaysiandigest.com
THE suspect who allegedly shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 on July 17 in Ukraine will be charged in Malaysia as the aircraft was national property, says Attorney-General Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail.
The International Criminal Court (ICC) has no jurisdiction to carry out any charges on the case as both Malaysia and the Netherlands have said they wished to take action against the culprits, Gani said in a recent interview at his office in Putrajaya.
"In this case, Malaysia and Holland said they wanted to press charges, so the ICC has no jurisdiction over this," he told The Malaysian Insider.
He said the ICC's powers were limited to war crimes such as genocide and civil wars, and in which no country was pressing charges.
Gani said that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) only handled cases of conflict between two countries, and not incidents like the downing of MH17.
The country's top lawyer said Malaysia had made clear that it wished to bring the guilty parties to the country and charge them under the Security Offences (Special Measures) Act 2012, or Sosma.
"Our stance is clear, Malaysia wants to charge them here under our Act.
"We have our laws and we will use them. Otherwise, there is no point having parliamentarians and the Parliament to pass the act," he said.
Gani added that if the culprits who shot down the flight and killed all 298 people aboard were identified, they would be extradited to Malaysia and charged here.
Deputy Home Minister Datuk Dr Wan Junaidi Tuanku Jaafar had previously said that under Sosma, Malaysia has the right to use its own laws to take legal action on any crime against the country, including those committed abroad.
But Wan Junaidi said that the culprit must first be identified, evidence must be gathered, and permission obtained from the suspect's country before they can be brought to Malaysia and charged here.
Gani (pic, left) said the suspect would be charged under Sosma and the Aviation Offences Act 1948.
"But we must first identify the culprit," he said.
When asked whether Malaysia would allow the Netherlands to press charges, as the majority of passengers on the flight were Dutch citizens, Gani said that the responsibility of taking legal action fell on Malaysia's shoulders.
Of the 298 people killed in the Kuala Lumpur-bound flight, which took off from Amsterdam on July 17, 195 were Dutch nationals and 43 Malaysians.
"That flight is our right, we will charge them because it is under our jurisdiction," Gani said, adding that the plane was shot down in Ukraine, not the Netherlands.
But he said the case would take time to build as evidence must be gathered before they could initiate charges.
Up to today, no one has claimed responsibility for shooting down MH17, with Russian and Ukrainian authorities blaming one another for the tragedy that occurred over Donetsk in eastern Ukraine, a region controlled by pro-Russian militants.
The downing of MH17 was the second tragedy to hit the national airline, just four months after the disappearance of flight MH370.
Home Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said that investigations on the Malaysia Airlines jetliner were 50% underway based on evidence extracted from the crash site and witness testimonies.
He said the international team of investigators had uncovered personal items as well as the plane's cockpit at a poultry farm near the site of the crash.
"Preliminary investigations found shrapnel from the cockpit, but the investigation team will probably take three more weeks to remove the remnants of the aircraft from the crash site," he told reporters at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Sepang yesterday.
Zahid said Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar was only allowed to be within a 20km radius of the crash site for an hour and a half.
There are currently 87 officers and members of the Royal Malaysian Police stationed in Soledar, Ukraine to continue with the investigation.
-MALAYSIAN INSIDER
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/malaysia-will-charge-suspect-who-shot-down-mh17-says-a-g1#sthash.fjhDgvy4.dpuf
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August 07, 2014 | malaysiandigest.com
Pic: NSTKUALA LUMPUR: Intelligence analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.
This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.
In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts", Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said "some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame".
This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.
In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.
They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country's core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.
"We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.
"At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April," the statement read.
Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes - the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with "flechettes", and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.
Parry's conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.
Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.
Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.
In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: "The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days".
"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire," Bociurkiw said in the interview.
Parry had said that Bociurkiw's testimony is "as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we'll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.
"That's powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later," Parry had said.
Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.
"You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.
"The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent - outwardly."
He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner's starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.
"It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko's main discovery. You can't have projectiles going in both directions - into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides - unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.
"Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry had said.
--New Straits Times
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Aug 7, 2014 | Voices of Liberty
August 7, 2014 – The U.S. government has grown strangely quiet on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a buck anti-aircraft missile.
The little that we have heard from U.S. intelligence is that it has no evidence that Russia was involved. Yet the war propaganda was successful in convincing the American public that it was all Russia's fault. It's hard to believe that the U.S., with all of its spy satellites available for monitoring everything in Ukraine that precise proof of who did what and when is not available.
When evidence contradicts our government's accusations, the evidence is never revealed to the public-for national security reasons, of course. Some independent sources claim that the crash site revealed evidence that bullet holes may have come from a fighter jet. If true, it would implicate western Ukraine.
Questions do remain regarding the serious international incident. Too bad we can't count on our government to just tell us the truth and show us the evidence. I'm convinced that it knows a lot more than it's telling us.
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7 August 2014 | New Straits Times
By Haris Hussain - @ 11:05 AM
KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.
This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.
In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts", Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said "some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame".
This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.
In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.
They also denied all allegations made by the Russian government and said the country's core interest was in ensuring an immediate, comprehensive, transparent and unbiased international investigation into the tragedy by establishing a state commission comprising experts from the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and Eurocontrol.
"We have evidence that the plane was downed by Russian-backed terrorist with a BUK-M1 SAM system (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation reporting name SA-11) which, together with the crew, had been supplied from Russia. This was all confirmed by our intelligence, intercepted telephone conversations of the terrorists and satellite pictures.
"At the same time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have never used any anti-aircraft missiles since the anti-terrorist operations started in early April," the statement read.
Yesterday, the New Straits Times quoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes - the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with "flechettes", and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.
Parry's conclusion also stemmed from the fact that despite assertions from the Obama administration, there has not been a shred of tangible evidence to support the conclusion that Russia supplied the rebels with the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet.
Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.
Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.
In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: "The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days".
"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire," Bociurkiw said in the interview.
Parry had said that Bociurkiw's testimony is "as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we'll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.
"That's powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later," Parry had said.
Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.
"You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.
"The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent - outwardly."
He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner's starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.
"It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko's main discovery. You can't have projectiles going in both directions - into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides - unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.
"Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry had said.
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06 August 2014 21:31 | malaysiandigest.com
Zahid Hamidi/Pic:NSTZahid Hamidi/Pic:NSTSEPANG: More than 50 per cent of the evidence-collecting process for the probe into the ill-fated MH17 flight which crashed near rebel-controlled Donetsk, Ukraine last month has been completed.
Home Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the swift canvassing of the crash site which covered a 20 kilometre radius had been made possible through the cooperation of more than 500 personnel from the international investigation team.
He said the Royal Malaysia Police Force had sent some 87 members from its investigations and forensics teams who were working together with their Australian and Dutch counterparts.
Zahid said the team was operating under a tight schedule as they were only allowed to access the crash site for one-and-a-half hour a day.
The situation was compounded by the on-going conflict between the Ukranian government forces and pro-Russian separatist militiamen as the team of investigators had to pass at least four security road blocks to access the crash site.
Zahid said this during a press conference after arriving here at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport (KLIA) from his special week-long mission to Kiev, Ukraine.
He said at least 10 divers from Australia and Netherlands had been deployed to a nearby lake in Grabovo as the team believed there was a possibility that remaining passengers and bits wreckage could be found there.
He said Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar had flown to Amsterdam, Netherlands to meet seven senior investigation officers, included leading forensics experts to streamline the international probing teams' efforts.
Zahid added Malaysia had signed several agreements with the Ukrainian government to be officially part of the international investigation team.
"We have received excellent cooperation from the Ukranian government," he said
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Aug 3, 2014 | vz.ru
It has been almost two weeks since, as international experts got black boxes from "Boeing". Britain promised to decipher them for 24 hours. But the public still can't learn any details about the data from the black boxes, There are only leaks in the media.Malaysian media with reference to a source in the group of international experts, investigating the crash Malaysian Boeing 777 that crashed in Ukraine, told about the preliminary data decrypting the black boxes.
They say about absence of emergency during the flight, the source said to New Sunday Times. The last recorded conversation in the cockpit became the talk of the crew with ground services. At the same time it is established that the last voice on the record did not belong to the pilot.
"Nothing indicates that the pilots noticed or felt something," said the source, without giving any more details of the investigation. Source Malaysian edition assures that it is still unknown whether international experts receives tower record from the Ukrainian side, which records conversation of flight controllers with the perished airliner.
Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, where the Department for investigation of accidents, received for decrypting the black boxes almost two weeks ago - on July 23. Then the officials promised to decrypt them within 24 hours, if the black boxes are not strongly damaged.
And they proved to be in good shape. First, the experts found no evidence and indications that the black box was subjected to any kind of manipulation. And on the next day, on July 24, the representative of the International civil aviation organization (ICAO) said that the speech the flight data recorder Malaysian plane, shot down over Donetsk, is in good condition and was decoded, and the work on the parametric flight recorder is under way.
Although black boxes were not damaged, still there is no any official information about what decoding of data had shown. Considering the special importance of this investigation for the whole world it looks at least strange. and while the international experts are silent, the US and EU continue unfounded blackmail campaign blaming the tragedy on the confederate rebels of the East of Ukraine, as well as Russia. And under sauce of those charges, without any actual evidence, the West has intensified sanctions pressure on Moscow by adopting so called sectoral sanctions.
Instead of officially represent at least preliminary results of decoding the black boxes, Western experts remain silent. Still, the public receives the information only through unofficial leaks in the media.
What can prevent officials investigating a plane crash near Donetsk, to speak at press conferences and with all responsibility to tell about what has identified from black boxes data at this stage?
It is reasonable to suggests that they have no evidence against the rebels, which in the minds of Western politicians is equivalent to the guilt of Russia. And the West is apparently is no hurry to confirm this fact, because it might discredit strict sanctions taken against Russia. Or at least have sown the seed of doubt the fairness of the charges of the USA and the EU against Russia before the end of the investigation of the crash.
This is not the first leaked unofficial information about the situation with black boxes. The first data about their transcript appeared on the fifth day after international experts to have them in their hands. Sources told the Western media that the data decrypting the black boxes Malaysian "Boeing" and information from the crash say that the aircraft was damaged by shrapnel of exploded missile.
"The rocket performed their task for which it was developed. She hit the plane," said an unnamed official from the European organization for the safety of air navigation. According to the official, who would not give his name, finding indicates significant decompression on the plane, formed as a result of the explosion.
International experts working at the crash site, he said, are evidence that the aircraft fuselage in many places has shrapnel holes. However, officially the European officials did declare anything about investigation findings.
The unidentified official said Malaysian publication that some preliminary details of the incident may be announced next week. But there is no guarantees that this will happen.
To whom the rocket belong
Meanwhile leaks about the deciphering of the black boxes don't answer the main question - if this was a missile was, to whom it belong and who launched it?
The official representative of the White house Josh Ernest earlier statement, "indirectly acknowledged the presence of the Ukrainian air defense in the region of Donetsk, although they claimed that they have not worked," said a high-ranking source in the Russian defense Ministry. Moreover, the US is thus confirmed the authenticity of the data of satellite images, presented at a special briefing at the Russian defense Ministry on July 21, where it was stated that the air defense of the armed forces of Ukraine near the city of Donetsk has four anti-aircraft divisions of the complex "Buk-M1".
during briefing on July 21 Russia presented objective evidence that the Ukrainian radar stations (missile complex "BUK" worked (unlike what the USA states). For example on 17 July (date of the crash) Russian technical equipment recorded nine switches of Ukrainian radar stations S Kupol-M1" in the region of Donetsk for the detection and tracking of aircraft.
A source in one of the law enforcement agencies of Ukraine did not exclude that the aircraft may have been shot down as a result of emergency situation, which could have been created by servicemen of the defense units of the Ukrainian armed forces during training of removing the lock of the system of missile launch. Ukrainian military deny these accusations.
Moreover, Kiev has provided images, allegedly denying the existence of the Ukrainian "BUK" systems in the area of disaster Malaysian "Boeing". However, the defense Ministry of Russia two days ago, officially announced that these pictures are fake and were made some days later then Russian images, with time deliberately falsified.
The defense Ministry has analyzed graphics, common 30 July, the security Service of Ukraine, the alleged "refuting" the authenticity of the Russian space images of the presence of July 17, Ukrainian batteries BUK" in the area of the disaster Boeing 777", and allegedly testifying about the shelling of the Ukrainian territory of the Russian Armed forces, said in a statement on the website of the Ministry of defense of Russia.
Having analyzed the pictures, the Department stated that "the first two slides Russian and Ukrainian images generally identical. However, an important note to them is that presents the SBU picture is taken a few days later."
"More interesting for the analysis of the Ukrainian images on slides 3 and 4. They specified time shooting does not match the image. So, at 11 o'clock in the morning the sun in this area is in the South-East, and, accordingly, the shadow on it should fall on the North-West. And presents the leadership of the SBU materials shadows fall reason to North-East. Thus, these pictures were made not only in some other date, but after noon, as specified on them deliberately falsified", - stated the Russian Ministry of Defense.
they added that they detected on the pointed by SBU area of forest distortions made by the photo editor". In the Ministry have noticed, that "weather " broadcast on July 17 in area of N. p. Avdeevka was cloudy 70-80% of the height of the bottom layer of about 2,500 meters, which can be easily checked by mass independent sources and is well seen on the slide Avdeevka done by a Russian satellite." While on the picture 4 SBU on the same day and time is a clear, sunny weather.
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theguardian.com
The western media however are not guilt free. Almost routinely they have downplayed the Russian side of the story, however persuasive. Yanukovych was a rotten President of Ukraine but, unlike the demonstrators, he was democratically elected. The people of Crimea welcomed their reincorporation into Russia, however illegal the process.
The insurrection in eastern Ukraine has real local roots, whatever assistance the Russians may have given. And the difficulties of inspecting the MH17 crash site stem as much from the ongoing Ukrainian military offensive as from obstacles put up by the rebels.
The British press has been particularly ready to shoot from the hip (the Sun proclaimed "Putin's Missile" brought down MH17 well ahead of evidence that it was a missile, or linked to Russia). The sad spectacle of huge press outrage when pro-Russian secessionists seized a US journalist, followed by silence when the Ukrainians seized a pro-Russian British journalist, underlines the inconsistency.
Editors can claim, correctly, that Russian official lying justifies aiming off. But, as the "false photos" affair showed, the Ukrainians are no better. Far too often Russia has become a pantomime villain getting nothing but catcalls.All of this has real world consequences. The confrontational course the UK government in particular has taken on the Ukraine issue has undoubtedly been eased by ministers knowing they are playing to a largely anti-Russian press. In countries (notably France and Germany) where the press line has been less strident, so has the political reaction been.
Things may be getting better. Indiscriminate Ukrainian bombardment of civilian areas in Donetsk and Luhansk has attracted sharp questioning, notably by the BBC. The western lurch down the blind alley of economic sanctions has given rise to some surprisingly sceptical comment (even in the Financial Times, a consistent advocate of sanctions). But a core part of the west's claim that our system is superior to Putin's is that our free press is better than Russia's state suffocated media environment. That has been true through this crisis, but not as true as it should have been.
Sir Tony Brenton is a former British diplomat who served as ambassador to Russia from 2004-2008
SirLuciusOTrigger, 04 August 2014 3:00pm
Is western media coverage of the Ukraine crisis anti-Russian?
Do bears crap in the woods?
Reyter01 -> SirLuciusOTrigger, 04 August 2014 3:08pm
yeah. A patently ridiculous question. The Guardians pathetic attempt to say 'We really are the "free" press'. And tomorrow it will be business as usual.
earthboy SirLuciusOTrigger, 04 August 2014 5:46pm
They do.
Guardian trying to present itself as 'other', as usual.
Russia, China, India, the great Eurasian threat to Western power. Clearly the US, UK, et al have a plan to destabilise Russia and take it over by creeping stealth. How much further east can Nato go before it needs to change its name? The Atlantic is very far away from the Urals. Even Napolean didn't go that far east.
coober -> AuObserver, 05 August 2014 1:45amI think the sanctions have tied Putin's hands.
No. It strengthens Putin. US and EU are acting like a cartel. They have now lost their best customer. Russia can be self sufficient and if they want partners they have BRICS and the rest of the World.
Murdoch loves monopoly and besides ruining Australia he is also ruining the US and the EU.
allunequal -> SirLuciusOTrigger, 05 August 2014 9:50am
deoraiocht -> harryphilby , 04 August 2014 8:31pmVery cleverly written.
They provide lots of detail to support the answer being in the affirmative...
An innovative way to spout propaganda. I'm impressed.
I'm no fan of Putin's Russia.chry5anth -> deoraiocht , 05 August 2014 1:17amIt is quite clearly a corporatist state where state control is heavily enforced and propaganda is rife and used to control the perceptions of the people in order to line them up behind the state's imperial ambitions.
However - how is the West any different?
I thought the contribution above by the former British ambassador to Moscow was quite astonishing:
You can replace"Russians" in that quote with any nationality you care to mention and it would still be true.Sadly, despite a lifetime of being lied to by their authorities, Russians still accept what their government tells them.
NikoNista -> chry5anth , 05 August 2014 2:46amhow is the West any different?
In the West we are committed to the ideal of pluralist liberal democracy i.e. where everyone may have a say, an ideal itself founded upon the broader ideals of self-determination, the political equality of individuals, the autonomy of agents, the value of their projects, the ideal of adequate choices, and a commitment to an idea of liberty as non-domination or political accountability. In practice these ideals are expressed through strong institutions and norms of substantive constitutional democracy and the rule of law.
Good ideal, unfortunately our liberal democracy turned to money democracy.You have great example in yesterdays article:deoraiocht -> chry5anth , 05 August 2014 3:25am
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/04/east-coast-mainline-fury-reprivatisation-planThat is why we need something like in Scandinavia.
bavanek , 04 August 2014 3:11pmWho is "we" ?In the West we are committed to the ideal of pluralist liberal democracy
Perhaps you and I would be committed to those ideals you list but the vast majority of the people in power in the west are not.
I think you've fallen into the trap of believing what you are told rather than the evidence of what goes on around us.I'll point you in the direction of one M.K Gandhi, who, when asked what he thought of Western civilisation said:
"I think it would be a good idea"
Nothing much has changed since then.
Most of these experts manage to stick their knives in under a thin guise of neutrality.Dinosam bavanek , 04 August 2014 3:26pmOh what, "neutrality" means you must ignore the facts?Jeremn bavanek , 04 August 2014 3:41pmI think that was possibly the point of the exercise.Kaiama Jeremn , 04 August 2014 3:45pmFor me the Ukraine crisis has revealed a lot about how the media works. Pretty much everything the Western-supporters said in Ukraine was relayed as gospel, as confirmed, as official. Anything the separatists, or the Russians, said, was propaganda.
But, in between that war of words, there were those episodes that weren't properly covered in our media. There was the Nuland phonecall and the Ashton conversation with the Estonian Foreign Minister, dismissed as a conspiracy theory. There was the massacre in Odessa, quickly excused as a Russian provocation (before filmed evidence suggested otherwise), the shooting of unarmed civilians at Mariupol (hardly covere, but caught on film), the Ukrainian airforce raid on Luhansk, and so on. And, in recent weeks, there's been nothing on the Communist Party being kicked out of the Rada, or the processing of thousands of people through the Ukrainian courts for speaking out against the ATO.
In the last few days we haven't been informed that Ukraine has used Tochka ballistic missiles, or that there have been riots against conscription in many western cities. Or that 450 Ukrainian soldiers have crossed the border to escape the fighting, and that 1500 more are negotiating surrender.
And we haven't been told there's no hot water in Kyiv, that the local currency is collapsing and that there's an extra tax to pay for the war.
So debate as to whether there is a free press is ongoing. But what we do seem to have is a press, on both sides, which is manipulating the narrative. I can see how that might happen in Russia.
But we should be asking why is our free press manipulating the narrative. Is the media so in bed with government, or corporations, that we live in a world where we are to be force fed a particular story?
And should we be surprised if people seek out an alternative version if we recognise that forces above us are twisting the story?
Utterly brilliant post.grimpeur Jeremn , 04 August 2014 3:57pmExcellent post. If the Guardian had really been interested in getting a broad spectrum of opinion on western media treat of the Ukraine it could have broadened it's 'experts' to include some genuine alternative discourse from people such as John Pilger.Here is what Pilger had to say on the Western media!
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/on-israel-ukraine-and-truth/
Neil Robinson Jeremn, 04 August 2014 5:29pm
You've nailed it. Nice one.
rodney9 grimpeur, 04 August 2014 5:44pm
Thanks for the Pilger link, it says all you need to know about the Guardian. It is far more interesting and insightful than the voices chosen for this piece. Interesting that Seumas Milne is spoken of as "the radical Guardian columnist", what does that make the other journalists who have covered Ukraine. I think he would describe them rather like he does Aaronovitch, that they have all "fawned expertly".
llunequal Dinosam, 05 August 2014 9:59amIf the BBC's mission statement is impartiality and objectivity... what do you expect from a newspaper who doesn't have that mission statement?
FrancesSmith Jeremn, 05 August 2014 10:28am
thanks for that list of things the media haven't told us.
though funnily enough this morning (5/8/14) the today programme on the bbc reported the 450 ukrainian soldiers who had crossed into russia, however it was mocking the russian version of events, and the journalist said he had interviewed them and they didn't want asylum, as allegedly russia had said, but to go back.
The mocking tone of the story was interesting, they probably aren't even aware they are doing it, but it seems to be about peer pressure. You tell lots of stories about how bad the russian media is, and so because no one knows enough about what is going on there, they believe it, and don't want to be seen to be unaware of that.
Larry144 Jeremn
You are making excellent points, bravo.
Jeremn FrancesSmith, 05 August 2014 12:16pm
BBC reporters on Russia are very biased and tend to sneer about Russia (Sandford especially). I understand the troops were given the option of remaining in Russia or returning to Ukraine (for possible trial). The officer, Major Dubinak, said they had been welll treated and the majority elected to remain for the time being.
Russia has also treated and returned Ukrainian wounded.
Hajduk, 04 August 2014 3:13pm
Clear answer: shameless propaganda masquerading as "objective"!
Proof?! "Putin alone is responsible for his Cold War caricature" - Gregory Fiefer, above…
His father is, apparently "astounded" – what is astonishing is that ANYBODY (let alone Guardian) gives column space to this sort of "objective journalism"!Or am I particularly stupid and this article is some sort of bad joke?
harryphilby. 04 August 2014 3:14pm
the western reporters on the ground in eastern Ukraine are providing most of the credible information about the fighting and the terrible toll it's taking on the country, often at risk to their own lives
That is a lie. Name one who even attempted to?
TryingBeObjective harryphilby, 04 August 2014 3:37pm
What about Graham Phillips? I think Gregory Feifer did not think of him when he wrote the sentence.
MuadDibFremen harryphilby, 04 August 2014 3:41pm
Shaun Walker was there?
Jeremn harryphilby, 04 August 2014 3:42pm
Most of those who died were Russians reporting on a war in which Russian-speakers are the primary targets.
TryingBeObjective MuadDibFremen, 04 August 2014 3:43pm
You would not get credible information from Shaun.
Nobul MuadDibFremen, 04 August 2014 3:59pm
He is Luke Harding's apprentice.
Ytrnj Ytrnj Матвей Тарасов, 04 August 2014 9:30pm
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Aug 4, 2014 | vineyardsaker.blogspot.com
First, a disclaimer: I am not a pilot nor an air traffic controller, and I never served with air defense units. I did spend some time with an airforce, but my role was one of electronic intercept analysis. So what follows are just the musings of an uninformed amateur. Caveat emptor.
What I will try to do here is present a possible scenario which takes into account the basic facts established so far. Here goes:
The plan was for the Ukies to shoot down the MH17 using a totally inappropriate aircraft: the Su-25, which is a "tree hugging" close air support aircraft. Why? After all, the Ukies do have some Mig-29s and even some Su-27, but these are much fewer in number and much easier to track. A few of them have been seen in the skies over Novorussia, but only rarely. In contrast, the Su-25 has been a ever-present presence in the skies ever since the conflict began. Some say that the Su-25 cannot fly over 7'000m. That is not true. The problem is that it's cockpit is not pressurized, but the airframe itself has powerful engines which can bring the aircraft well over 10'000m. All the pilot would need is some good warm clothing and an oxygen mask. No, the big drawback of sending the Su-25 so high is that it's engines are not designed to be used at that altitude and that it will not be able to fly fast enough to catch-up with a cruising Boeing. But what if the Su-25 carried a missile?
Turns out that the Su-25 can carry the R-60 air-to-air missile which can fly at over 3'000km per hour and thus easily catch up with a cruising airliner. So the Su-25+R-60 combination has a flight envelope which is sufficient to attack a Boeing.
There is something else that the Su-25 lacks to function has an interceptor: a radar. Well, this is not quite true, the Su-25 has a radar, but it is designed for navigation, not air-to-air combat. However, the R-60 missile does not need a radar, it has its own infrared homing warhead. So if the pilot of the Su-25 can point his aircraft in the general direction of a heat emitting target, and if that target is not too fast or too far away, the R-60 will be able to lock on to it and close in. The R-60 is a pretty small missile with a short range, under 8'000m, but it so happens that that Russian radar operators reported the Su-25 at about 3-5'000m from MH17.
Still, it is not easy to visually acquire the correct aircraft from the cockpit of a Su-25, then get within the correct range and then fire. There are clouds, sunlight, other aircraft. And the Su-25 has no air-to-air radar with a search and track mode. So what could the Ukies have done? Provided another radar?
In comes the 3 BukM1 transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) and the at least one early warning (long range) radar which all had just been moved in the day before MH17 was shot down, and then immediately withdrawn. The radars of each Buk TELAR and the long range early warning radar whose signal have been detected by the Russians could have easily guided the Su-25 to its target, either by a encrypted datalink or even by radio commands.
Combining all of the above, here is my totally primitive and possibly completely mistaken hypothesis:
The Ukies guided the Su-25 to MH17 by using the Buk radar capabilities. As soon as he was in reach, the SU-25 fire a R-60 missile which hit one of the two engines. At this point, the MH17 sharply turned to one side and lost altitude (the hit engine would lose power and its drag would sharply pull the Boeing to one side). The Su-25 then easily closed in and opened fire with his cannon, which has a range of 4'000m, shredding the cockpit and cabin with 30mm rounds. Had the pilot of the Su-25 failed to catch with MH17 or if the R-60 missile had failed, the Buks on the ground were ready to shoot, but they probably did not have to. Once MH17 was clearly destroyed, the pilot of the Su-25 could have easily landed anywhere in the Ukraine without drawing any attention.
This was a good plan, but it failed to take into account the sharp turn made by MH17 which instead of continuing on its path towards Russia turned around and fell into a contested by Resistance-controlled field.
One more thing: if my hypothesis is correct and the first impact on MH17 was from a rather small R-60 missile (3kg warhead) into an engine, the flight deck did probably not suffer an immediate and catastrophic depressurization. If so, the pilots would have had the time to report an explosion. This is why the recordings of the Kiev ATC were seized by the SBU and why the result of the analysis of the flight recorders takes so much time: the Empire needs to wipe away the recording of the pilots' last words. Conversely, if MH17 had been destroyed by a BukM1 missile (70kg warhead) the depressurization would have been immediate and catastrophic. The problem with wiping the flight recorders is that if the pilots had the time to send a mayday then it would have been recorded not only by the USA and Russia, but by at least two more West European countries. Even if the latter would comply with the US orders, the Americans are probably terrified that the Russians have the recordings of the MH17's mayday and they are probably trying to negotiate a deal with Russia. If not, they need to carefully prepare the public opinion by, for example, organizing careful leaks through the Dutch and Malaysian press to say that nothing was recorded in order to denounce any recording presented by Russia as a "fake". All of this is, again, pure speculation on my part.
Ok, now please feel free to tear this hypothesis into shreds. These are just the musings of an amateur and most definitely not an expert opinion. I submit it only as a basis for discussion.
Kind regards,
The Saker
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The Russian Ministry of Defense has released the following document:
Analysis of satellite imagery released on the Internet by the Security Service of Ukraine on July 30, 2014The Russian Defence Ministry has analyzed the satellite imagery released by the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) on July 30, 2014, which allegedly disproves the authenticity of the Russian satellite imagery showing the Buk-1 batteries in the Boeing 777 (MH17) crash site area on July 17 and confirms that Russian Armed Forces opened fire on Ukrainian territory.
First of all, one needs facts to level grave accusations or make conclusions. It is widely acknowledged that geo-reference and astronomical time are necessary for satellite images to count as factual evidence in order to pinpoint specific satellites in a constellation that was flying over the area at the time and take into consideration their technical characteristics and capacities. All satellites orbiting the Earth move in accordance with predetermined trajectories.
In connection to this, we can state that according to the Russian space surveillance system, Ukrainian satellites Sich-1 and Sich-2 were not flying over this territory from 10am to 1pm Moscow time (GMT+4; 9am-12pm GMT+3) on July 12, 16, 17 and 18, 2014.
At the time specified in the images, the American electro-optical reconnaissance satellite of the Key Hole series was flying over the crash site area, so the source of the images for Ukrainian Security Service is obvious.
As for the images, the analysis goes as follows.
The first two slides show almost identical images from the Ukrainian and Russian sides. The important detail is that the SBU's image is dated several days later.
Slide 1
Slide 2
The images on Slides 3 and 4 require a more detailed review.
Slide 3
Here the specified time does not correlate with the image.
In the images released by SBU, the shadows point north-east. Thus, these images were not only made on a different day, but also in the afternoon, which means the specified time has been deliberately falsified.
That is an indisputable fact. The images released by the Russian Defense Ministry on July 21 are absolutely accurate in terms of the location and time.
Moreover, it is clearly visible that in the SBU's image the circled tree belt has been deliberately distorted. The Russian satellite image does not have these distortions.
Additionally, according to all weather reports for Avdeyevka on July 17, the area had 70 to 80% cloud coverage and cloud base height of 2,500m. The information can be easily verified through a number of independent sources. Russian satellite image shows exactly that.
Please note that the SBU's Slide 4 shows clear skies and sunny weather on the same day. No comments are necessary.
Slide 4
The resolution of the Russian satellite image on Slide 5 has been deliberately lowered, which resulted in the outlines the terrain (i.e. field) looking smeared.
Slide 5
The Russian Defense Ministry presented a high-quality satellite image of this area (as follows), which has no alleged inconsistencies pointed out by the SBU.
High-quality image of area as presented by the Russian Defence Ministry
The Ukrainian image on Slide 7 is identical to the Russian one, except it was made 5 days (!) later. It is unclear what the SBU was trying to prove with it.
Slide 7
Now let us look at the images presented by the SBU as evidence of Russia delivering arms and military equipment to Ukrainian territory, as well as sending mysterious sabotage groups and shelling populated areas.
In the 14 satellite images presented by the SBU one can make out some vehicles and their tracks with no latitude or longitude, or references to time and date.
Half of the images (Images 2 through 7) show some field roads that, according to the SBU, are located partly in Russia and partly in Ukraine.
Image 2
Image 3Image 4
Image 5
Image 6
Image 7
However, none of the images show a road that crosses the border. The SBU's unsubstantiated statements that the tracks in the fields were made by Russian military vehicles do not hold up to scrutiny.Considering the quality of the images, it remains unclear how the vehicles were identified as tanks, armored vehicles or trucks, let alone as property of the Russian Federation and not of the Ukrainian military or border patrol.
The same goes for the two images (images 4 and 14) which allegedly show evidence of fieldworks.
Image 4Image 14
It is a similar case with Images 11-13, which the SBU claims to show Russian military equipment on Ukrainian territory.
Image 11Image 12
Image 13
Again, it remains unclear exactly why the head of the SBU believes this equipment belongs to the Russian army. The area around Marinovka, Kozhevnya and Grigoryevka has long been controlled by the Ukrainian military.As for the alleged shelling with Grad rocket launchers from the Ukrainian (!) village of Grigoryevka controlled by the Ukrainian military (Images 8-10), this is clearly an exercise in conspiracy theories and an attempt to lay the blame on someone else's shoulders, which is clearly reminiscent of Kiev's earlier allegations of Russia's involvement in the Maidan and the tragedy in Odessa.
Image 8Image 9
Image 10
Instead of presenting hastily doctored evidence to the international community, the SBU could do with better control over all the mercenary units in the areas around Donetsk and Lugansk organized by Kolomoisky, Lyashko, Yarosh and others, who shell Ukrainian territory without any control from those in charge of the anti-terrorist operation.
***In conclusion, based on the data provided by the Russian space surveillance, one may deduce that Ukraine does not own the disclosed information.
However, its quality, as well as the SBU's arguments allegedly proving Russia's involvement, are absolutely implausible.
Apparently, the reason why the true owners of these images have not put their names to these publications is to make sure the myth of their mighty space intelligence keeps going.
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Zero Hedge
It was ten days ago when on the heels of Russia's 30-minute detailed presentation of what it believes happened to MH-17, the US government released a satellite trajectory map of what it says was the flight's path and the site from which the missile was shot as well as various other satellite images "proving" the missile that took down the Boeing 777 was fired by the pro-Russian separatists. Yesterday the Russian defense ministry finally responded to the US release stating that the "satellite images Kiev published as 'proof' it didn't deploy anti-aircraft batteries around the MH17 crash site carry altered time-stamps and are from days after the MH17 tragedy." In other words, the evidence the US has present to form public opinion was in the form of "altered images carrying wrong time-stamps."
The satellite image on the left was provided by the Russian Defense Ministry on 14 July, 2014. On the right is the image that Kiev claims were taken by its satellites on July 16, 2014. Image from mil.ruRT reports that the images, which Kiev claims were taken by its satellites at the same time as those taken by Russian satellites, are neither Ukrainian nor authentic, according to Moscow's statement. The Defense Ministry said the images were apparently made by an American KeyHole reconnaissance satellite, because the two Ukrainian satellites currently in orbit, Sich-1 and Sich-2, were not positioned over the part of Ukraine's Donetsk Region shown in the pictures. The Defense ministry further alleges weather and lighting conditions in the images were not possible at the dates and times Ukraine claims they were made, the Russian ministry said.
More:
At least one of the images published by Ukraine shows signs of being altered by an image editor, the statement added.
"It's the latest 'masterpiece' in the Ukrainian exercise in conspiracy theories, an attempt to divert responsibility," the ministry said.
"It can take a deserved place next to other allegations against Russia voiced by Kiev that claimed that Russia was responsible for masterminding the Maidan protest and the tragedy in Odessa."
"Apparently that's why the real owners of those photos are hesitating to publish them under their own name, since it would derail the myth of the omniscience of their space reconnaissance," the Russian ministry said.
The ministry also criticized images published by Kiev to back its allegations that Russia smuggled heavy weapons over the border and shelled Ukrainian army positions.
The images lack proper time stamps and coordinates, while Kiev didn't bother to explain why it believes that whatever vehicles are shown in them are Russian, the statement said.
* * *
Among the photos released is the following comparison of satellite images published by Russia and Ukraine as presented by Kiev in an attempt to dispute the authenticity of Moscow's photos. The shadows are cast in different directions in the two images, proving that they could not have been almost at the same time two days apart, as indicated by the time stamps.
The weather is also clearly different, with the Russian image showing a cloudy day, while the image presented by Kiev shows a clear day - showing that the images could not have been taken less than an hour apart, as claimed by the time stamps. The Russian military say the actual weather conditions at the time can be easily double-checked by independent sources.
In another comparison with the images used by Ukraine, it was purposely degraded in quality in order to point out some irregularities. No such irregularities are present in the original image, the Russian military said.
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Aug 03, 2014 | Consortiumnews
Exclusive: From magazine covers to pronouncements by top politicians, Official Washington jumped to the conclusion that Ukrainian rebels and Russia were guilty in the shoot-down of a Malaysian passenger plane. But some U.S. intelligence analysts may see the evidence differently, writes Robert Parry.By Robert Parry
Contrary to the Obama administration's public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.
This judgment – at odds with what President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have expressed publicly – is based largely on the absence of U.S. government evidence that Russia supplied the rebels with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
President Barack Obama delivers a statement on the situation in Ukraine, on the South Lawn of the White House, July 29, 2014. (Official White House Photo by Lawrence Jackson)
Despite U.S. spy satellites positioned over eastern Ukraine, U.S. intelligence agencies have released no images of a Buk system being transferred by Russians to rebel control, shipped into Ukraine, deployed into firing position and then being taken back to Russia. Though the Obama administration has released other images of Ukraine taken by U.S. spy satellites, the absence of any photos of a rebel-controlled Buk missile battery has been the dog not barking in the strident case that Official Washington has made in blaming the rebels and Russia for the July 17 shoot-down that killed 298 people.
Given the size of these missile batteries – containing four 16-foot-long missiles – the absence of this evidence prompted caution among U.S. intelligence analysts even as senior U.S. officials and the U.S. mainstream media rushed to judgment blaming the rebels and Russians.
In making that case, Kerry and other senior officials relied on claims made by the Ukrainian government along with items posted on "social media." These snippets of "evidence" included ambiguous remarks attributed to rebels who may have initially thought the shoot-down was another of their successful attacks on lower-flying Ukrainian military aircraft but who later insisted that they had not fired on the Malaysian plane and lacked the longer-range Buk missiles needed to reach above 30,000 feet.
If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct – that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible – the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.
Some independent analyses of the initial evidence from the crash site suggest the jetliner may have been destroyed by an air-to-air attack, not by an anti-aircraft missile fired from the ground. Yet, the working hypothesis of the U.S. intelligence analysts is that a Ukrainian military Buk battery and the jetfighters may have been operating in collusion as they hunted what they thought was a Russian airliner, possibly even the plane carrying President Vladimir Putin on a return trip from South America, the source said.
The source added that the U.S. intelligence analysis does not implicate top Ukrainian officials, such as President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, suggesting that the attack may have been the work of more extremist factions, possibly even one of the Ukrainian oligarchs who have taken an aggressive approach toward prosecuting the war against the ethnic Russian rebels in the east.
Obviously, a successful shoot-down of a Russian plane, especially one carrying Putin, could have been a major coup for the Kiev regime, which ousted Russian ally, President Viktor Yanukovych, last February touching off the civil war. Some prominent Ukrainian politicians, such as ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, have expressed the desire to kill Putin.
"It's about time we grab our guns and kill, go kill those damn Russians together with their leader," Tymoshenko said in an intercepted phone call in March, according to a leak published in the Russian press and implicitly confirmed by Tymoshenko.
The Shoot-Down Mystery
The Malaysia Airlines plane, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was not expected to be over the eastern part of Ukraine on the afternoon of July 17, but was rerouted to avoid bad weather. The plane was nearing Russian airspace when it was shot down.
Some early speculation had been that the Ukrainian military might have mistaken the plane for a Russian spy plane and attacked it in a scenario similar to the Soviet shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 in 1983 after misidentifying it as a U.S. spy plane.
In the two-plus weeks since the Ukrainian air disaster, there have been notable gaps between the more measured approach taken by U.S. intelligence analysts and the U.S. politicians and media personalities who quickly rushed to the judgment blaming the rebels and Russia.
Only three days after the crash, Secretary of State Kerry did the rounds of the Sunday talk shows making what he deemed an "extraordinary circumstantial" case supposedly proving that the rebels carried out the shoot-down with missiles provided by Russia. He acknowledged that the U.S. government was "not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible."
By then, I was already being told that the U.S. intelligence community lacked any satellite imagery supporting Kerry's allegations and that the only Buk missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military. [See Consortiumnews.com's "What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?"]
On the Tuesday after Kerry's Sunday declarations, mainstream journalists, including for the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post, were given a senior-level briefing about the U.S. intelligence information that supposedly pointed the finger of blame at the rebels and Russia. But, again, much of the "evidence" was derived from postings on "social media."
The Los Angeles Times article on the briefing took note of the uncertainties: "U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the Buk anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
That reference to a possible "defector" may have been an attempt to reconcile the U.S. government's narrative with the still-unreleased satellite imagery of the missile battery controlled by soldiers appearing to wear Ukrainian uniforms. But I'm now told that U.S. intelligence analysts have largely dismissed the "defector" possibility and are concentrating on the scenario of a willful Ukrainian shoot-down of the plane, albeit possibly not knowing its actual identity.
A Hardened Conventional Wisdom
Nevertheless, even as the mystery of who shot down Flight 17 deepened, the U.S. conventional wisdom blaming Putin and the rebels hardened. The New York Times has reported Russia's culpability in the airline disaster as flat-fact.
On July 29, Obama prefaced his announcement of tougher sanctions against Russia by implicitly blaming Putin for the tragedy, too. Reading a prepared statement, Obama said: "In the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia, and countries around the world, families are still in shock over the sudden and tragic loss of nearly 300 loved ones senselessly killed when their civilian airliner was shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine. …
"Since the shoot-down, however, Russia and its proxies in Ukraine have failed to cooperate with the investigation and to take the opportunity to pursue a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. These Russian-backed separatists have continued to interfere in the crash investigation and to tamper with the evidence. They have continued to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft in the region. And because of their actions, scores of Ukrainian civilians continue to die needlessly every day." [Emphasis added.]
Though one could argue that Obama was rhetorically tip-toeing around a direct accusation that the rebels and Russia were responsible for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down, his intent clearly was to leave that impression. In other words, Obama was pandering to the conventional wisdom about Russian guilt and was misleading the American people about what the latest U.S. intelligence may suggest.
It's also grotesquely deceptive to blame the Russians and the rebels for the indiscriminate shelling by government forces that have claimed hundreds of lives in eastern Ukraine. The rebels have been resisting what they regard as an illegitimate coup regime that, with the aid of neo-Nazi militias from western Ukraine, overthrew elected President Yanukovych in February and then moved to marginalize and suppress the ethnic Russian population in the east.
By presenting the conflict in a one-sided way, Obama not only misled Americans about the origins of the Ukraine crisis but, in effect, gave the Kiev regime a green light to slaughter more ethnic Russians. By pointing the finger of blame at Moscow for all the troubles of Ukraine, Obama has created more geopolitical space for Kiev to expand its brutal onslaught that now has included reported use of poorly targeted ballistic missiles against population centers.
Obama's covering for the Kiev regime is even more outrageous if the U.S. intelligence analysts are right to suspect that Ukrainian forces were behind the Flight 17 shoot-down.
And as for who's been responsible for destroying evidence of the Flight 17 shoot-down, an assault by the Ukrainian military on the area where the plane crashed not only delayed access by international investigators but appears to have touched off a fire that consumed plane debris that could have helped identify the reasons for the disaster.
On Saturday, the last paragraph of a New York Times story by Andrew E. Kramer reported that "the fighting ignited a fire in a wheat field that burned over fuselage fragments, including one that was potentially relevant to the crash investigation because it had what appeared to be shrapnel holes." The shrapnel holes have been cited by independent analysts as possible evidence of an attack by Ukrainian jetfighters.
Accepting Reality
Yet, given how far the U.S. political/media establishment has gone in its Flight 17 judgment pinning the blame on the rebels and Russia even before an official investigation was started, it's not clear how those power-brokers would respond if the emerging analysis fingering Ukrainian forces turns out to be correct.
The embarrassment to high-level U.S. officials and prominent mainstream U.S. news outlets would be so extreme that it is hard to believe that the reality would ever be acknowledged. Indeed, there surely will be intense pressure on airline investigators and intelligence analysts to endorse the Putin-is-to-blame narrative.
And, if the investigators and analysts won't go that far, they might at least avoid a direct contradiction of the conventional wisdom by suggesting that the Flight 17 mystery remains unsolved, something for historians to unravel.
Such has been the pattern in other cases of major mainstream mistakes. For instance, last year, some of the same players, including Secretary Kerry and the New York Times, jumped to conclusions blaming the Syrian government for an Aug. 21 sarin gas attack that killed hundreds of people in a Damascus suburb.
On Aug. 30, Kerry gave a bellicose speech filled with "we knows" but providing no verifiable evidence. A punitive U.S. bombing campaign against the Syrian government was averted at the last minute when President Obama decided to first seek congressional approval and then accepted President Putin's assistance in working out a deal in which the Syrian government surrendered all its chemical weapons while still denying a role in the Aug. 21 incident.
Only later did much of Kerry's case fall apart as new evidence pointed to an alternative explanation, that extremist Syrian rebels released the sarin as a provocation to push Obama across his "red line" and into committing the U.S. military to the Syrian civil war on the side of the rebels. But neither U.S. officialdom nor the mainstream U.S. press has acknowledged the dangerous "group think" that almost got the United States into another unnecessary war in the Middle East. [See Consortiumnews.com's "The Collapsing Syria-Sarin Case."]
It may seem cynical to suggest that the powers-that-be in Official Washington are so caught up in their own propaganda that they would prefer the actual killers of innocent people – whether in Syria or Ukraine – to go unpunished, rather than to admit their own mistakes. But that is often how the powerful react. Nothing is more important than their reputations.
Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America's Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry's trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America's Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.
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July 30, 2014 | washingtonsblog.com
On July 30th, a German pilot headlined at anderweltonline, "Shocking Analysis of the 'Shooting Down' of Malaysian MH17," and he provided the first public analysis of the photos that were available immediately after the disaster, of the plane's cockpit, and of a wing. Google removed the photos soon after they were first available, but pilot Peter Haisenko had fortunately screen-saved them, and now shows them on that site, after having carefully analyzed and made sense of what they show. He says: "The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes." And they're unmistakable in the accompanying photo. "This aircraft was not hit by a missile" and it was not hit "in the central portion" of the airplane. "The destruction [that explains the way the entire wreckage was spread out] is limited to the cockpit area," as he explains it: "A typical SU 25″ (which is the Ukrainian plane, or pair of planes, that accompanied the Malaysian jet into the conflict-area) "is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302," carrying "a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum)," which are "designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank" and which ripped to shreds the cockpit-area on both sides of the plane. "The cockpit of the MH017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment" of the cockpit, so that there had to have been two SU 25s, and not merely one, which were escorting that plane into the rebel-held area.
This type of "shelling" will "cause massive explosions inside the cockpit," due to the shocking change of air-pressure, so that "the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of construction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. … Both the high-resolution photo of the fragment of bullet-riddled cockpit as well as the segment of [bullet-] grazed wing have in the meantime disappeared from Google Images." Nonetheless, "The shelling of the cockpit of Air Malaysia MH 017, … is definitely not … speculative," asserts Haisenko.
Haisenko, according to the Anderwelt website, was born in 1952 in Munich, trained at the Lufthansa Flight School, and piloted for 30 years numerous different plane-types. In addition, he has been a respected published investigative journalist and historian, including the favorably reviewed 2010 book, England, the Germans, the Jews and the 20th Century. So, he has experience not just in piloting but also in investigative journalism and historical writing. Unless the photos that he captured on his computer were faked by him (and they look like they're of that wreckage-field), the United States and Ukrainian Governments have been lying about how the Malaysian airliner was destroyed. If those photos are authentic, then they are the most virginal, undoctored and unhandled evidence, relating to reconstructing what brought this airliner down.
This isn't necessarily to say that the economic sanctions that the U.S. and EU have placed against Russia are necessarily based on lies, but it is to say that unless Mr. Haisenko has perpetrated a fraud, the U.S. and EU have. Right now, it's his evidence against their "evidence," at a time when their "evidence" has been widely challenged as being non-credible. Perhaps Haisenko's isn't. But, certainly, the imposition of the anti-Russian sanctions on the basis of the "evidence" that has been offered to justify them is scandalous in itself, as being, at the very least, highly premature, if not outright warmongering.
No one can doubt that George W. Bush and Tony Blair invaded Iraq on the basis of bogus "evidence" like that. Are President Obama and NATO aiming to invade Russia on that same fraudulent basis? Is history repeating itself here, only far more dangerously? And will the world's press do as rotten a job this time, as they did last? The consequences this time could turn out to be far, far, worse.
One thing is very clear: the public have every reason to distrust both their governments and their press.
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Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They're Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010, and of CHRIST'S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity.
First Examination of Malaysian MH-17 Cockpit Photo Shows Ukrainian Government Shot that Plane Down was originally published on Washington's Blog
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Aug 02, 2014 | The Guardian
Relations between Russia and the west are at their lowest ebb since the end of the cold war a quarter of a century ago. Europe and America say missiles supplied by the Kremlin to separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine were responsible for the shooting down of flight MH17. The sanctions imposed last week are designed to force Vladimir Putin to accept that the economic consequences of stirring up trouble in Ukraine will be severe. Putin denies responsibility for the missile attack and says that the sanctions will rebou
Fliegerweb appears to list the SU-25 as having a maximum altitude of 14,600m (circr 48000ft is US numbers).Washington dials back its rhetoric to "A tragic accident" whilst continuing to pursue punitive measures on Russia as if Putin had personally shot down MH-17, whilst calling for calmer heads over the Israeli shelling of UN schools and refugee camps in Gaza 'until all the facts are in'.
Golfclap.
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The Guardian
notyetnotyet, 02 August 2014 10:28pm
headline :"Ukrainian military closes in on pro-Russia rebels in Donetsk"
=================
so are we supposed to be happy about that?...what is Guardian's position? - shall Kiev eliminate separatists (who are in fact federalists because majority of them want just autonomy status and federalization of Ukraine, instead of unitary state that it is now) ?...or shall there be autonomy status granted to Donbass with rights of local elections of a Governor , rights for Russian language, rights for leaving at least part of taxes for local development, rights for local culture and heritage, that is celebrating local holidays and not venerating Bandera that Kiev wants to impose etc? - or there should be total annihilation of separatist dissent (who are in fact federalists) and establishing unitary Ukraine state?
WillyMarz, 02 August 2014 10:34pm
Ballistic missiles devastating civilian population centres. The Americans are throwing as much resource as they can at a government of Ultra Nationalists and fascists. Now Guardian hails these as victories as "tightening the noose".
Everyone wake up, America is creating a client state in your back garden.
LaurieRay, 02 August 2014 10:34pm
reporting of the situation in Ukraine in the guardian is so vague and lacking in detail as to be entirely meaningless.
jamesoverseas, 02 August 2014 10:47pm
Government forces tightened the noose around the main stronghold of pro-Russia rebels in eastern Ukraine on Saturday
hmm. That's a bit of a controversial opening line. Whilst Kiev forces have made incremental advances in the North, following all media from all sides suggests that the 72nd, 79th and 95th are stuck in a pocket, surrounded and being systematically taken apart. The Kiev offensive aimed at cutting off Donetsk from the south was stopped at Shaktersk, with pretty revolting results, and the remains of that offensive appear to be cut off.
And I understand that, on their return to Ukraine, a criminal prosecution has been opened against the 40 or so members of the 51st who put down their weapons and walked over into Russia.There seems to be a concerted effort to tell us that this is almost all over, when there is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.
centerline ID5677229, 03 August 2014 12:19am
From what I have been reading, Ukraine have been taking ground but with unsustainable losses of manpower and equipment. Conscription in Ukraine with protests starting against conscription. The US is rushing military hardware to Ukraine, and EU sending anti riot equipment.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/01/pentagon-ukraine-russia/13482157/
Shaneo, 02 August 2014 10:53pm
"But sometimes people don't always act rationally...blah blah"
This coming from the man who was going to let John Kerry destroy Syria based on a lie.
Putin is the only one looking rational in this whole affair. At least he's provided evidence - something the US is suspiciously reluctant to do.
neomarxist Shaneo, 02 August 2014 11:00pm
The accusation of the rebels over the plane has changed. First it was Russian missile operated by Russian army, then it became a Russian missile brought to Donetsk, then it was a Ukrainian missile captured by the rebels. And finally the accusation evolved to "the probability".
So now no one those suckers can actually prove it and instead they say now " the rebels probably did it".
I think people should start some training, the judgement day is coming!
Ambricourt, 02 August 2014 10:54pm
As President Obama falters, all his credibility with the EU, Israel and Russia collapsed, his country falls to the control of its military-intelligence elite. These proponents of the so-called New American Century use mainly strategic violence to shape a single globe-spanning American Empire. Ukraine has been chosen as the next annexation.
Does the world want a New American Totalitarianism (NET) serving an unelected plutocracy which retains power through continual war, economic manipulation and simplistic ballot-box democracy?
Time to resist. Humanity can no longer evolve through American values. But enjoy them while you may.
Peace_Brothers Ambricourt, 02 August 2014 11:30pm
New American Totalitarianism (NET) ... Er that would be "NAT" - too similat to NATO.
How about Great New American Totalitarianism (or GNAT). I mean, no-one likes a GNAT, do they?
Ambricourt Peace_Brothers, 03 August 2014 12:29am
Thank you. Apologies for pressing on wrong vowel. Yes - GNAT might gain approbation from aging Monty Python enthusiasts who are usually more imaginative than aging George Orwell fanatics.
ucic, 02 August 2014 10:59pm
From the Guardian in May:
More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia...Odessa's large Soviet-era trade union building was set alight on Friday as the pro-Ukraine activists mounted an assault as dusk fell. Police said at least 31 people choked to death on smoke or were killed when jumping out of windows after the trade union building was set on fire.
Bodies lay in pools of blood outside the main entrance as explosions from improvised grenades and molotov cocktails filled the air. Black smoke from the building and a burning pro-Russia protest camp wreathed the nearby square.
Astonishing how Western MSM rhetoric has gone from "protesters" to "rebels" to describe the Ukrainians "opposed to the current government" and who are still being massacred, in what is now a civil war following a USA backed coup which overthrew a democratically elected government.
Meanwhile (today):
The US and the EU imposed new sanctions on Moscow this week, accusing Putin of failing to use his influence with the separatists to end the fighting in the mainly Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine.
So, let's blame Russia and start a new cold war in order to conceal the deeds of McCain, Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland, the CIA et al, that are busy meddling in European affairs, whilst simultaneously demanding that their EU politician poodles and media meekly follow suit.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire
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Oui | Aug 2, 2014 4:31:55 PM | 12
Oui | Aug 2, 2014 4:32:32 PM | 13○ OSCE Mission reports from Donetsk – July 30, 2014
On 30 July, the SMM support group in Donetsk attempted, for the fourth day in succession since the last successful visit on Friday 25 July, to access the MH17 crash site in Hrabove via a northern route (Yasenovata – Yenakievo – Debaltseve), using the E50 as the access road. Fighting was reported at 08:00hrs to be occurring astride this route in the northeastern outskirts of Donetsk in the vicinity of Yasenovata, 25km northeast of Donetsk. [Mission failed]
Discussions about next steps occurred in Kyiv. Following these discussions, which took place
(a) internally in Kyiv between the SMM and Dutch and Australian representatives,
(b) with the acting Prime Minister and Defence Minister of Ukraine, and
(c) between SMM Donetsk and the so-called "DPR" representatives [Donetsk People's Republic],
a detailed plan was agreed to access the site on a new, more northerly road via Artemisk (70km north of Donetsk).Maracatu | Aug 2, 2014 4:34:09 PM | 14The SMM, together with Australian and Dutch experts, visited the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. The convoy comprised 25 vehicles, including a bus and two mobile ambulances. The crossing of territories controlled by Ukrainian government or the so-called "Donetsk People's Republic" ("DPR") or the so-called "Luhansk People's Republic" ("LPR") went smoothly and was well organized. The SMM observed a new checkpoint positioned at Mius (14 km south-east of Debaltseve). At the Ukrainian checkpoint in Debaltseve (70 km north-east of Donetsk), the agreed ceasefire seemed to hold. About 10 kilometres south of Mius, the SMM was met by an "LPR" escort, and drove to the main wreckage site.
The SMM saw several instances of artillery impacts at 7–10 kilometres southwest of the crash site between 13:03-14:19hrs. The expert teams recovered some human remains. The Australian expert team wanted to operate an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) in order to access areas such as fields, without damaging them. However, neither the "LPR" nor "DPR" representatives agreed to UAV use. After about five hours, the SMM left the site. The Australian and Dutch expert teams then left for Soledar (98 km northeast of Donetsk), where a forward operating base has been established. This base, closer to the crash site than Donetsk, will now become the main forward hub for investigative activity.
○ MH-17 Joint Dutch/Australian Forward Operating Base in Soledar – Aug. 2, 2014
I'm sure you all have covered this somewhere else in the comments (I would be surprised if you hadn't). Nevertheless, I think Pepe Escobar is onto something:Meanwhile, the MH17 tragedy is undergoing a fast metamorphosis. When the on-site observations by this Canadian OSCE monitor (watch the video carefully) are compounded with this analysis by a German pilot, a strong probability points to a Ukrainian Su-25's 30 mm auto-cannon firing at the cockpit of MH17, leading to massive decompression and the crash. No missile - not even an air-to-air R-60M, not to mention a BUK (the star of the initial, frenetic American spin).If this is true, we now have the reason the Kiev coup gov't was so anxious to take over the crash site!The new possible narrative fits with on-site testimony by eyewitness in this now famously "disappeared" BBC report.
Bottom line: MH17 configured as a false flag, planned by the US and botched by Kiev. One can barely imagine the tectonic geopolitical repercussions were the false flag to be fully exposed.
Abdelnour | Aug 2, 2014 5:32:10 PM | 19
Hello,
for news on Ukraine, this is the very best source I found: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/Anonymous | Aug 2, 2014 5:33:53 PM | 20
US to train ukraine army
http://rt.com/usa/177520-california-ukraine-obama-military/Abdelnour | Aug 2, 2014 5:34:42 PM | 21
Look here: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-ignominious-conclusion-of-kiev.html
Enjoy!
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01 Aug 2014 | Telegraph
Elikal Ialborcales
I am having a small question here.
Why don't we hear anything from the Black Box of the MH17 flight anymore? Why did the USA show not satellite or radar pictures? And why did the flight control from Kiev airport declare all recordings secret?
Why does no press ask for these things? Ever since the Black Box was recovered, all over the western media is dead silence about it.
Why is this so?
And why are 80% of all articles in all western media suddenly locking down comment functions to a bare minimum, whereas in the Euro crisis we could comment every article?
I really would like to know these things.
Avond > Elikal Ialborcales
Western countries in the UN Security Council have blocked the proposed draft declaration to abide the truce around place of crash of Malaysian Boeing - that definitely shows that this so-called western countries (the USA and others) that the Malaysian "Boeing" was shot down by ukrainian army and these western countries trying to hide the fact of terrorism from the world community, making it difficult objective investigation.
This is the answer why no information , particularly, about black boxes is coming.
Sanningenarhotad > Elikal Ialborcales
Here is an article on MH17 which might interest you:
NATO exerting pressure, not interested in MH17 investigation – Russia's mission
Sanningenarhotad > Elikal Ialborcales
That´s because the ruling elite do not want the masses to learn what really happened. Most likely it was the Kiev junta that ordered the shoot down to produce a so called False Flag to blame on Putin to start WWIII, or at least escalate the Ukraine/Russia conflict. Unfortunately it did not quite work out so now they are busy covering the traces. It is a very strange coincidence that it is same company, type, and model that disappeared just a few moths ago. An extreme amount of bad luck for Malaysian to loosa both MH370, and MH17 under suspicious circumstances. It is like... "in your face". The press is only a tool for the ruling elite. There is an enormous amount of questions that should be answered about so many things that the press choose to ignore. Where are the Iraqi WMD:s? If there are none... who should be in jail for the Iraq war? How could BBC report on the collapse of WTC7 26 minutes before it actually happened? How come newspapers between 1915-1938 predicted 6 million jews will die? Why is Murdoch allowed to buy energy exploration rights for the Golan Heights from Israel? How come children blown apart in Gaza can be called terrorists by Netanyahu without condemnation from all politicians in the world? etc. etc. Mainstream press is lying, covering up, so often that I am honestly surprised the few times they actually expose something of importance and it does not appear to fit into an agenda
scottlshman > Elikal Ialborcales
"A Ukrainian security spokesman said Monday that data from the recovered flight recorders shows Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crashed due to a massive, explosive loss of pressure after being punctured multiple times by shrapnel. Andrei Lysenko said the plane suffered "massive explosive decompression""
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/bl...
I don't think they will get much more useful data out of them.
Sanningenarhotad > scottlshman
Here is some data on the boxes:
NATO exerting pressure, not interested in MH17 investigation – Russia's mission
No matter what happened... it is used as a warmongering tool.
Sanningenarhotad > scottlshman
I would be very surprised if there is a thorough transparent investigation into what happened to MH17. Any other "normal" crash you can find first fairly quickly a preliminary report, and after a couple of months or even years, there is an extremely detailed account of what happened, how rested the pilots were, what they were saying in the flightdeck, what systems reported malfunctions at what time etc. etc. followed by a conclusion which states what the investigators believe is the most likely cause of the accident. I would believe the MH17 investigation will be very similar to the 9/11 investigations, which is close to non existent.
Technically I believe it will not be a problem to get data from them. They are very durable and an aircraft disintegrates quite easily if hit by a missile or cannon rounds. Unless there has been a direct hit by shrapnel or rounds on the black (orange) box it is probably completely intact. Since they were allegedly sent to Holland for analysis I believe they were at least semi intact. Heat seeking air to air missile would go for the engines (far away from the black box). Radar guided missile most likely would come from the front, also far away. Cannon attack would be from behind most likely and thereby highest risk of damage if directly hit (which is still a fairly low probability).
If the ruling elite wants us to know what´s in them is a completely different question though. They probably do not want us to know.
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