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Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 ?
Notes on propaganda war around the tragedy

Facts? Who needs facts when your task is hysterical scapegoating to promote neoliberal agenda. Thus MSM coverage of the incident became a classic "kangaroo court"

High resolution version of this picture that contains round holes in it is available from
http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf

More photos at Flickr Jeroen Akkermans RTL News Berlin's Photostream

News The Far Right Forces in Ukraine Recommended Links Some technical characteristics of SU-25 relevant to MH17 tragedy

BUK air defense system

Why air space over Donetsk province was not closed

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Neoliberal Propaganda The Guardian Slips Beyond the Reach of Embarrassment Fighting Russophobia Foreign Agents Registration Act Russian Fifth column Humor Etc

"Process in which the mechanisms of projection or displacement are utilized in focusing feelings of aggression, hostility, frustration, etc., upon another individual or group; the amount of blame being unwarranted."

A definition of scapegoating[2]

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed... Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it... The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one... What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

Adolf Hitler

 

 


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[Sep 23, 2020] MH17 looks like a flashback to KAL007 to me, the evil is always Russian and every where!

Sep 23, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Wolle , Aug 8 2020 1:20 utc | 32

MH17 looks like a flashback to KAL007 to me, the evil is always Russian and every where! KAL007 was shot down by Russians, after some thousand kilometres in high sensitive Russian air space partially shadowed by RC-135 spy plane. Extremely devilish!

MH17 was IMHO shot down by drunken Ukraine forces: https://youtu.be/Q3MomxNHnUA (video from July 16th, 2014)

Of course there are NO operational BUK systems and NO fascists in the ATO zone in east Ukraine! And a SU-24 can't fly higher then 6km! Believe me, it's in Wikipedia!

[Jul 20, 2020] Dominic Raab grandstanding

Jul 20, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Reply

MOSCOWEXILE July 19, 2020 at 8:55 am

Dominic Raab @DominicRaab · Jul 17 Today, we remember that 6 years ago flight #MH17 was shot down & 298 people tragically lost their lives, including 10 🇬🇧 citizens. We support the ongoing trial in the Netherlands to deliver justice for those who died & for their loved ones, and call on Russia to cooperate fully

And Russia does not try to cooperate fully?

Is Russia even allowed to cooperate?

The Ukraine is allowed to cooperate, of course, and not only cooperate: the Ukraine is part of the "Joint Investigative Team"!

The Ukraine even provides "evidence" of Russian culpability!

What duplicitous twat Raab is!

MOSCOWEXILE July 19, 2020 at 9:35 am

And of course, according to the mendacious Raab, the purpose of the "trial" is to deliver "justice for those who died and their loved ones" and certainly not to apportion blame on Russia and the so-called terrorists in eastern Ukraine, whom Russia supports by, amongst other things, having dispatched a Buk ground-to-air anti-aircraft missile launching complex from Russia to the Ukraine, which weaponry was part of the Russian armed forces and manned by Russian servicemen, then ferreted said system out of the Ukraine back to Russia, mission having been accomplished, namely the downing of a civilian airliner that, for some reason or other, had been diverted by Ukraine air-traffic control over a war zone in the Ukraine and on a day when all Ukraine air-traffic radars were, for some inexplicable reason, out of action.

Raab, to partly quote one of your fellow British cabinet ministers and erstwhile foreign minister: "You should go away and shut up!"

[Jul 17, 2020] Dutch Foreign Ministry Says Probe Started Into Why Ukraine Did Not Close Skies Over warzone

Jul 17, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

MOSCOWEXILE July 17, 2020 at 7:30 am

Dutch Foreign Ministry Says Probe Started Into Why Ukraine Did Not Close Skies Over MH17 Crash Site
Updated 18:20, 17th July

https://sputniknews.com/world/202007171079916084-dutch-foreign-ministry-says-probe-into-why-ukraine-did-not-close-skies-over-mh17-crash-site/

The Flight Safety Foundation has begun an investigation into why Kiev did not close the airspace over the warzone in eastern Ukraine where MH17 was destroyed in July 2014, a Dutch foreign ministry spokesperson has confirmed to Sputnik.

[Jul 15, 2020] Rutte and his foreign minister, Stephanus Blok, want to submit MH17 case to European Court of Human Rights. The ECHR has yet to record their lawsuit

Jul 15, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

ET AL July 14, 2020 at 3:19 am

Dances with Bears: RUTTE'S RUT -- DUTCH PRIME MINISTER LOSES CONFIDENCE IN MH17 TRIAL, FILES CLAIM TO EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS DESPITE COURT DECISION DELAYING ALL UKRAINE-RUSSIA CASES
http://johnhelmer.net/ruttes-rut-dutch-prime-minister-loses-confidence-in-mh17-trial-files-claim-to-european-court-of-human-rights-despite-court-decision-delaying-all-ukraine-russia-cases/

"This isn't just parallel litigation, which the ECHR has already refused to allow," commented a London legal expert. "It's a vote of no confidence in the Dutch prosecutors to secure convictions in the murder case they are trying to make."

Rutte and his foreign minister, Stephanus Blok, made their move on July 10 with press releases and tweets; there has been no release of the legal papers. The ECHR has yet to record their lawsuit

####

Well we're not surprised! Rutte seems quite adept at autof/kery.

[Jul 05, 2020] The Russian Foreign Ministry welcomed the formation in Malaysia of its own position on the collapse of MH17

Jul 05, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

MOSCOWEXILE July 2, 2020 at 9:39 am

The Russian Foreign Ministry welcomed the formation in Malaysia of its own position on the collapse of MH17
The department noted that in the West this tragedy has been portrayed one-sidedly and biased.

July 2, 2020
<bMOSCOW, July 2. / TASS /. The publication of a book written by Mahajir Ibrahim on the causes of the downing of flight MH17 indicates the formation of a position in Malaysian society on this tragedy. This was announced on Thursday at a briefing by the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova.

"The appearance of the book testifies to the increasing desire of the Malaysians to form their own opinion about what happened. We believe that the latter is especially important, given how the tragedy has been covered in a one-sided and biased manner in the West", she said.

As noted by Zakharova, in the book, the author pays special attention to various versions of the airliner crash as well as to motives, "including not always obvious ones which concern one or another country involved in the crash investigation. For example, the United States, as the author claims, has used tragedy to justify the need for new sanctions against Russia", the diplomat said.

https://tass.ru/politika/8872199

[Jul 05, 2020] A Dutch court has denied MH17 crash lawyers a second request for satellite data from NATO

Jul 05, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

MOSCOWEXILE July 3, 2020 at 10:41 pm

Суд одобрил повторный запрос у США снимков с места крушения MH17
RT на русском, 3 июля 2020

Court has given approval for a re-request to the United States for images of the MH17 crash site
RT in Russian, July 3, 2020

The Netherlands court has called the proposal to re-appeal to the United States about satellite images from the crash site of a Malaysian Boeing in eastern Ukraine in 2014 justified.

This was reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the presiding judge Hendrick Steenheys.

According to him, interest in viewing satellite images and introducing them to the case is obvious.

"The court notes that since the autumn of 2016, the prosecutor's office has not made any attempts to verify whether these images can be made public as part of the criminal process. A second request would be reasonable", said the judge.

It is noted that at past hearings, lawyers asked to make a second request to the United States about satellite data that allegedly recorded the launch of a missile on Boeing flight MH17.

Earlier, the Dutch prosecutor Theis Berger, said that the Ukraine had not provided primary data from radars for the case concerning the downing of the Malaysian Boeing.

The Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed on July 17, 2014 in the Donetsk region of the Ukraine, killing 283 passengers and 15 crew members.

https://yandex.ru/turbo/s/russian.rt.com/ussr/news/761133-sud-ssha-snimki-mh17?promo=navbar&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com&utm_source=stick_link_button

MOSCOWEXILE July 4, 2020 at 2:05 am

However, in RBK, 3rd July, 18:48:

A Dutch court has denied MH17 crash lawyers a second request for satellite data from NATO. This was announced by the presiding judge Hendrick Steenhuis reports RIA Novosti.

Earlier, on June 29, Dutch lawyer for the accused Oleg Pulatov, Baudewein van Eyck, stated that NATO has not provided satellite data from the crash site. In this regard, he asked the court to find out whether the North Atlantic Alliance has relevant records for the eastern Ukraine zone on July 17, 2014. The court, in turn, recalled that it had already made such a request and the response said that no data was recorded from the crash site of flight MH17.

"We conclude that NATO does not have such data So the second request was rejected," the judge explained at the July 3 hearing.

https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/5eff3dc59a79473c9ff53474?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

A stitch-up or what?

MOSCOWEXILE July 4, 2020 at 8:17 am

But on the other hand:

A Dutch court investigating the downing of MH17 has agreed to hear from Almaz-Antey, a Russian arms manufacturer, which argues that the prevailing Western narrative – that rebels in eastern Ukraine shot down the plane – is false.

The hearing in Badhoevedorp, Netherlands says it will explore alternative scenarios in the high-profile trial, in which four anti-Kiev fighters stand accused of using a Russian anti-aircraft missile to destroy the civilian plane, killing 283 passengers – mostly Dutch – and 15 crew on board.

https://www.rt.com/russia/493798-mh17-trial-manufacturer-witness/

MARK CHAPMAN July 4, 2020 at 11:59 am

Crash site, crash site, crash site. We don't give a flip about the crash site; it has been done to death. What Kerry claimed, and never, ever substantiated in any way whatsoever other than non-stop allusion to having the information amongst its mountains of evidence, was that the USA had remotely observed the taking of the shot, and had seen the where and the when of its origin, and seen the very moment the airliner disappeared from radar. NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE CRASH SITE. The dispute does not revolve around whether or not the aircraft crashed, or where, but who shot it down and from where the shot originated. The USA claimed to know – and be able to prove conclusively – both those things. It manifestly is not going to do so no matter how many requests are floated, because if the Dutch thought there was any hope of proving the case to that level of certainty, the prosecution would never have embarked on its ridiculous strategy of 'conditional intent'.

I think it is at least possible if not probable that the USA did record something, or bought it from Digital Globe and now is sitting on it. I personally think the USA knows full well that Ukraine was probably or even definitely responsible, and is deliberately blocking that discovery. It is at least possible that this trial is all about a verdict of 'Guess we'll never know', so people will stop digging. But I'm sure they would still like a conviction of some Russians if it looked like they could pull it off.

MARK CHAPMAN July 4, 2020 at 11:15 am

The entire trial, and indeed the investigation which preceded it, has been an attempt to push a narrative in which first the investigators and then the officers of the court have stated 'facts' which are not in evidence. On occasion persons have claimed to have seen the evidence themselves, and satisfied themselves that it invites the conclusion they have arrived upon, and have asked to be believed on the strength of their reputations because the evidence cannot be made publicly available. Sometimes this has been difficult to grant because no such reputation for veracity is present, and sometimes because the scenario the missing evidence purports to tie together is so plainly ludicrous and/or biased toward or away from certain conclusions that it is broadly unacceptable. Anyway, I think it is fair to say that there is little we can claim we 'know'.

One think I believe we do 'know' is that if the United States had some slam-dunk evidence which would prove east-Ukrainian militias shot down MH17, regardless by design or by mistake, the United States would find a way to make that evidence available, and would have done so long since. It is so clearly in its own interests to make this case, simultaneously removing all doubt that its loyal ally – Ukraine – was not responsible, and so many examples exist of the United States flinging aside its own rules when doing so served its interests, that it is impossible to believe conclusive satellite evidence exists which proves what they say it does, but modesty and concerns for national security prohibit showing it. Similarly, if actual US government satellite data showed the movement of a single Buk TELAR from Kursk to eastern Ukraine and back again at the time of the disaster, it would be in every newspaper. Instead, we get limited hangouts and photoshops from Bellingcat, which has turned out to be a nice little earner for Higgins and like-minded computer nerds.

I believe, but cannot prove yet, that an ATC is not allowed to assume control of an aircraft in his/her airspace if no primary radar is available – something which has long bothered me is Ukraine's cheeky assurance that it cannot supply any electronic data because no primary radars were available, and the west's no-problem acceptance of this excuse. If no primary radar is available, the ATC actually has no video contact with the aircraft; Automatic Dependent Surveillance- Broadcast (ADS-B) consists of the aircraft determining its own position relative to everything else, and broadcasting it to the ground. The ATC must, armed with this information, provide guidance on altitude and course which will not take the aircraft he/she is controlling too close to other aircraft operating in the same airspace. There are rules on acceptable separation with/without primary radar, and obviously when the ATC cannot see the aircraft on his/her own radar, greater separation is necessary for safety. Other aircraft were operating in proximity, and there was speculation at the time that one or more of them might have seen the flare from the explosion, but I forget now how far away each was and am too lazy to look it up. Anyway, separation between aircraft in the best conditions, when you have primary radar contact and can see raw video on your scope, and secondary broadcast (because primary radar does not give identification or altitude) is five miles ahead on the aircraft's course and three miles to each side.

ICAO PANS-ATM ( Doc.4444 , Chapter 8) details radar separation minima of five (5) and three (3) nautical miles. These minima allow for a considerable increase in airspace utilisation compared to procedural control. Changes to ICAO documents are about to be published (2007) recognising ADS-B use to support 5 nautical mile separation standards. ICAO's Separation & Airspace Safety Panel (SASP) is working on proposals to allow 3 nautical mile separation standards using ADS-B and also on the use of multilateration to support both 3 and 5 nautical mile separation standards.

Early in the investigation of the incident, within a day or two, alert observers claimed Ukraine had given MH17 an ordered course correction which took it directly over the DNR. There was some talk about a altitude reduction as well, but I can't find any reference to that now. There was immediate pushback from Ukraine's defenders, so,me saying the course correction was just an urban legend and had never happened, some that MH17 had itself requested a course change due to weather, etc Whatever the case, the information was expunged from FlightRadar and other sites which provide it in the public domain, although there are many screen captures of it as it appeared at the time – people have learned that sensitive information has a way of vanishing from the internet as if it had never been.

Perhaps you can give course corrections to aircraft that you cannot see on radar, but it would be an act of faith that their broadcast data is accurate, and you must observe proper flight separation; the five-and-three rule applies to separation of aircraft that you can see on radar. So what I am saying is that if MH17's separation from other flights did not exceed five miles to the front and rear and three miles to either side, either the Ukrainian controller had primary radar available and could see MH17, or else he/she was controlling in violation of ICAO rules.

So, as to the satellite data which would reveal who shot down MH17, there are two alternatives I can see; one, the USA has no such data, and John Kerry was full of shit as usual, just grandstanding. Two, they do have such information, but it reveals a scenario drastically different to the one in the official narrative. Whatever the case, if the USA could prove beyond a doubt that Eastern-Ukrainian militia using a single Buk TELAR provided by Russia shot down the aircraft from the vicinity of Schnizne, and then booked it back to Russia with all reasonable dispatch, all the while firing off frantic radio messages to one another, there is nothing which would stop them from providing it. People already have a pretty good idea what is possible through satellite photography and analysis, what resolution is achievable and how easy it is to interpret what is revealed, and it's pretty hard to believe America is playing coy because it has unearthly technological capabilities which must remain secret even if it means murderers go free.

I'm afraid I still think the Dutch have their minds made up, and have done from the first, who is going to be awarded responsibility, and are now just going through the motions of being scrupulously fair; they would not accept Russia's primary radar data or insisted it shows nothing useful, supported the Ukrainian view that data held by Russia which shows the missile the Ukies are exhibiting as the murder weapon was transferred to Ukraine many years ago and never returned to Russia is forged or faked, ignored the impossibility of parts from such a missile being found 'at the crash scene' or 'in the wreckage' because the missile responsible would have exploded by proximity fuse without ever touching the airliner, except for the shrapnel from the warhead – the missile parts would have fallen to earth miles away, where the aircraft was hit and not where it landed. The premise of now exploring 'alternative scenarios' just looks like window-dressing to me, and I think it should be regarded with the greatest suspicion.

The title of the linked article implies the Dutch will seek 'images of the crash site' from the Americans. We have seen images of the crash site up the yingyang. What we need to see is imagery of the missile shot being taken, and from where it originated plus any detail visible of the system which fired it.

ET AL July 4, 2020 at 12:02 pm

I seem to recall that it was reported that the ATC audio tapes were taken by 'armed men' shortly after the event but no mention of radar tapes:

https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

The BBC reported on July 17th:

"Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."
####

The link above of course doesn't work but this one from the 16:38.18 snapshot does (so take a screenshot!):

https://web.archive.org/web/20140718163618/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.

MARK CHAPMAN July 4, 2020 at 1:27 pm

Ummm how does that square with reports that examination of the Cockpit Voice Recorder on the downed flight revealed 'nothing useful'. and there being nothing on it – no audio – for some four minutes (just guessing, I would have to look it up again, somewhere on Helmer's site) following a routine positional update? What would be the point of confiscating voice records of communications between the ATC and the aircraft from one end if they had a recording in full from the other, the receiving end?

Unless, of course, there was something on it you felt you could safely remove, considering no other record of it remained.

I believe the report of armed men seizing the ATC recordings was first offered by 'Carlos', the mystery ATC whose every appearance is greeted with yodels of joy by Matt, our former Venezuela correspondent, who claims that Carlos was conclusively and irrefutably proven not to exist, being a complete fabrication by Russia. So it's kind of complicated. The only thing I could say about it at this point would be that if it actually was done by Ukraine and was not a planned provocation but an accident, the speed and efficiency with which the global PR apparatus swung into action was awe-inspiring. If it was planned and executed by Ukraine, it was such a cold-blooded act that they would never live it down if it were exposed. But how likely is it that either Ukraine or Russia accidentally shot it down, and in only minutes, goons broke into the control tower and seized the recordings? If that ever actually happened, it would be a critical piece of evidence arguing that the shooting-down of MH17 was a carefully-planned provocation by Ukraine. They certainly would not seize recordings required by law to be retained as part of an investigation in order to protect Russia. The sole explanation for such behavior, if it could ever be proven to have happened, would be to prevent one's own implication in the crime. And it could never have happened so quickly by happenstance – it would have to be part of a plan.

MARK CHAPMAN July 4, 2020 at 2:09 pm

A couple of interesting things from the Malaysian statement: one, it affirms that Ukraine ordered a descent in altitude from 35,000 ft to 33,000 ft. Two, it affirms the aircraft was at all times within airspace which had been cleared by the ICAO. If true, not only Ukraine is to blame for not closing the airspace over a war zone.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140718151313/http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

I don't see anything between 16:37 and 16:41. Are you talking about the live feed record?

When the US State Department was not yet even sure if any Americans had been aboard, Sammy Power was already saying it was a surface-to-air missile that brought down the plane, and there was already language being used which said "a Russian missile system or supplied by Russia". In retrospect, it kind of looks like a plan, doesn't it? Similarly, all early statements said that if the plane had been shot down, it was 'an unspeakable crime'. There was never any question of it being an accident.

At 03:13 the narrative says "Data on MH17's flight route by flightradar24 suggests the plane had deviated slightly from its usual route and flew across the length of Ukraine." "Flightradar24" is a hotlink, but if you click it you learn that Googlemaps has disabled the feed and the data is not recoverable.

Wow; spooky; at 04:05 the feed says "Aviation website Flightradar24.com says in a Facebook post that MH17's plane crashed exactly 17 years after its first flight." First time I'd ever heard that.

All through the narrative are regular intercessions by the Americans, the British and the Australians to reiterate that it was a horrible murder and that Russia is responsible.

Mmmm interesting – in reference to my earlier statement that if you had the tapes you would know what could safely be removed from the CVR once it was located, this report reflects that several news sites including the BBC mentioned the ATC tapes being seized by the SBU. At one point, Ukraine's Ambassador to Malaysia Ihor Humennyi said "it is just the same as the flight data and cockpit voice recorders".

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29d_1407645168

Oh, okay – now I see it. 15:28. I was looking at 16:38. "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency." But Matt has told us several times that is all bullshit concocted by the now-proven-to-have-never-existed 'Carlos'.

ET AL July 5, 2020 at 3:17 am

It think 'Carlos' claimed to be ATC at Kiev Borisopol and I also doubt he was what he said he was:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888
####

It happens to all of us, no? But, being right once doesn't verify all the other opinions of that person. Remember he frequently refused to admit he was wrong and would accuse others of deliberately misinterpreting what he wrote, which was very odd as his english was quite good. He was quite the Princess because that is how he behaved, petulant, childish, priviliged, and never, ever wrong. Or in short, a troll, which is why I never engaged with him(?).


[Jun 28, 2020] The MH17 trial is turning into an interesting indictment on Dutch justice

Notable quotes:
"... There is no beyond reasonable doubt evidence (No US satellite pictures as claimed by Biden, even within NATO to Dutch Intel) and the defence is not pushing that hard but have asked for the Russian General to be called to describe the BUK missile's documented life i. e. it came from Ukraine's stock. ..."
Jun 28, 2020 | turcopolier.typepad.com

JohninMK , 25 June 2020 at 03:57 PM

Enjoy your updates. The MH17 trial is turning into an interesting indictment on Dutch justice. There is no beyond reasonable doubt evidence (No US satellite pictures as claimed by Biden, even within NATO to Dutch Intel) and the defence is not pushing that hard but have asked for the Russian General to be called to describe the BUK missile's documented life i. e. it came from Ukraine's stock.

So, on July 3rd the Judges have to decide whether to allow that evidence, which definitely puts the evidence less than reasonable double, or not allow it and convict the four defendants on insufficient evidence to meet Dutch Law, or allow them to go free.

Looks like they have a bit of a problem meeting the expectations of the US.

[Jun 26, 2020] How The Dutch Rigged The Outcome Of The MH17 Trial (On A Charge That Requires No Proof) by by John Helmer

Jun 26, 2020 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by John Helmer via Dances With Breas blog,

The Dutch Government has devised an evidence-proof scheme for ensuring the trial of the Russian government for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 will end in a conviction .

This scheme will work without evidence to prove that the four men accused of the crime of shooting down the aircraft, killing the 298 passengers and crew on board on July 17, 2014, intended to kill; or even intended to fire the missile which allegedly brought MH17 down.

The Dutch scheme is evidence-proof because no evidence will be needed, not from US satellite photographs which are missing; nor NATO airborne tracking which shows no missile; nor Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) evidence which has proved to have been fabricated, and in the case of Ukrainian witnesses for the prosecution, threatened, tortured or bribed.

The scheme is also evidence-proof because the Dutch Prime Minister has told the Dutch Minister of Justice to order the state prosecutors to tell the state-appointed judge that he must convict the Russians if he finds as proven that MH17 crashed to the ground in eastern Ukraine; that everyone on board was killed; and that the four soldiers accused – three Russians and one Ukrainian – were on the ground fighting.

International war crimes lawyers are calling this a legal travesty. It was presented in court near Amsterdam by Dutch state prosecutor Thijs Berger on June 10. It has gone unnoticed in the mainstream western media. Russian reporters following the trial have missed it. The scheme was first reported in English and Russian by a NATO propaganda unit on June 12.

As a prosecutor of the Dutch War Crimes Unit, a state entity, Berger has been employed in the past to prosecute the targets of wars fought by the Dutch, alongside NATO and the US, in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. In Europe his group prosecuted war crimes alleged by the NATO alliance in its war on Serbia from March to June of 1999. A recent report [2]to which Berger contributed, entitled Universal Jurisdiction Annual Review 2019, identifies a case which Berger pursued of war crimes in Afghanistan; those alleged crimes were not of the US and allied forces in Afghanistan, but of the local Afghans defending themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/YKJcJuT_5jc

Prosecutor Thijs Berger announces the evidence-proof scheme of Article 168. The legal loophole is spelled out over six minutes – Min 3:31:00 to 3:37:00.

For his presentation to presiding judge Hendrik Steenhuis, Berger read from a multi-page script authorized by his superiors in the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security. They and he repeatedly made the mistake of calling the charges in the prosecution's indictment – Articles 168, 287 and 298 – provisions of the Dutch Code of Criminal Procedure. This is the procedure code; its provisions are called articles in the original Dutch, but sections in the English version.

The charges of the indictment are from the Dutch Criminal Code. They are called articles in court; they are called articles in the Dutch statute but sections in the official English translation.

Source: The Dutch Criminal Code

For analysis of how the prosecution has manipulated both the Criminal Code and the Code of Criminal Procedure in the MH17 trial preliminaries, read this .

"The scope of the indictment," Berger began his legal argument, is that together, the four defendants -- Igor Girkin (Strelkov), Sergei Dubinsky, Oleg Pulatov, who are Russians, and Leonid Kharchenko, a Ukrainian – played "a steering, organizing, and supporting role in deploying the BUK-Telar [missile and radar unit]" to shoot down MH 17 (Min 3:25:22). They were members of an "armed group" engaged in "armed struggle, the purpose being to shoot down an aircraft" (Min 3:27:20-21).

Note the indefinite article – an aircraft. The prosecution is charging the four with capital crimes for defending themselves from attack by the Ukrainian Air Force. This, however, is not mentioned by the prosecution.

"They are not being prosecuted," Berger went on, "as the persons who actually carried out the firing process" (Min 3:38:22). "We do not need evidence as to the exact cause of events in order to be able to judge the accused" (Min 3:28:27). Homicide or murder, Berger conceded, is in Dutch law "death caused intentionally" (Min 3:29:15). But the crimes which must be judged by Steenhuis and his panel of The Hague District Court, he claims aren't homicide in the usual legal sense. "The exact course of events need not be established" (Min 3:30:43), Berger told Steenhuis. So the prosecution does not need to prove what happened. "That the missile which hit the MH17 could possibly have been meant and intended for a military aircraft doesn't change these facts" (Min 3:31:17).

" None of the charges in the indictment requires intention concerning the civilian nature of the aircraft or the occupants. The crimes in the indictment forbid the downing of any aircraft; this is Article 168 of the Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]; and also forbid causing the deaths of others under Articles 287 and 289 irrespective of whether the aircraft has a military or civilian status, and an error in the target doesn't really make a difference for the evidence that these crimes have been committed. So no evidence is required that the accused should have had the intention to shoot down a civilian aircraft" (Min 3:32:00).

"It was their intention to down a military aircraft of the Ukrainian Air Force" (Min 3:32:28), Berger claims his evidence of the SBU telephone tapes and witnesses proves.

"Those who intend to shoot down a military aircraft and subsequently, accidentally, hit a civilian aircraft are guilty of causing an aircraft to crash according to Article 168 of the Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]; but also guilty of murder of the occupants according to Article 289 of the Code of Criminal Procedure [sic]" (Min 3:33:04).

In a regular court of law in England, Australia, Canada or the US, a prosecutor's legal argument is always presented with explicit references to the case law. That's the accumulation of judgements by courts going back as far as the history of the crime and of the statute can be traced. These are the precedents which, in international law and in Dutch law too, must be followed by judges hearing cases to which these precedents apply. This reflects the accepted notion that law is cumulative, and that judges administer and interpret that law; they don't issue personal opinions or preferences.

Berger didn't identify any Dutch case law or provide the court with precedents in previous cases decided by the Dutch courts.

The reason is that there are none , explains a veteran Dutch judge who was asked this week to identify the case law on Article 168. The judge replied: "It's sufficient to establish that the defendant had the intention to take down some aircraft and that he should have seriously taken into consideration the chance that he would hit an aircraft such as the MH-17. That's called conditional intent -- voorwaardelijk opzet in Dutch Answering this question [of precedents] took a bit more time. I couldn't find any case law that would be relevant to the issue. Article 168 is not used very often."

Conditional intent doesn't exist in Anglo-American law. But in Dutch law, the concept has not (repeat never) been applied to cases of warfare, or in situations of military engagement where men are attacking and defending themselves. For a Dutch review of the court precedents for application of voorwaardelijk opzet to deaths caused by a drunk driver and a poisoning, read this [8]– Sect. 3.3.1. Fatal traffic offences committed by drunken drivers are the typical homicides in which Dutch prosecutors apply the doctrine of conditional intent; the case law and precedents are reviewed here [9]. No Dutch lawyer, judge or court has ever applied this to warfare.

Berger knows this; so does Steenhuis. They also know there is voluminous case law in the international courts dealing with similar facts to those of the MH17 case and of the combat in which the four defendants were engaged; for a sample Dutch law review, read this .

Again, Berger ignored what no prosecutor outside The Netherlands would attempt in front of a judge. "We are aware," Berger told Steenhuis, "of academic comments that imply that Article 168 would require intention in killing civilians [Min 3:33:04]. But this is incorrect. Article 168 does not require any intention for the death of the occupants" (Min 3:33:34).

The NATO propaganda unit Bellingcat repeated this claim in a publication two days after Berger's presentation. The Article 168 argument, repeated from Berger's script, will prove to be a "boomerang" for the Russian government, NATO officials are now claiming. "It is only a question of time, therefore, that the Dutch prosecution brings murder charges against Russian top military commanders. Unlike the case with the 4 defendants, they would easily have obtained combatant immunity, if only they – and their supreme commander – had admitted to being part of the war. But they – and he – continuously denied, and this alone makes immunity impossible. Also unlike the 4 defendants, the political price that Russia will pay such indictments will be much higher. It is one thing for 3 Russian 'volunteers', forgotten by most, to spend the rest of their life holed up at home and afraid to take any trip abroad. It's an altogether different story when top Mod [Ministry of Defence] and FSB officials – and maybe even a minister – are charged with murder of 298 civilians and end up on the Interpol red-notice list."

International lawyers already before the European Court of Human Rights are arguing that the "boomerang" strikes the government in Kiev first, because it was ordering combat in eastern Ukraine, including orders for bombing and strafing by the Ukrainian Air Force, and at the same time refusing to close the airspace to civilian aircraft. The case of Denise Kenke, on behalf of her father, MH17 victim Willem Grootscholten, explains .

Canadian war crimes attorney Christopher Black (right) says the Dutch prosecution is deliberately ignoring Dutch law, as well as international law.

"What Berger is stating is a case of criminal negligence, not murder. The general principles of criminal law apply to this case as much as to any case. As for the burden of proof, the court has to be convinced on the basis of the lawful evidence presented that the accused has committed the crime he is accused of."

Black is pointing out that the prosecution's evidence from the Ukrainian SBU is unlawful. For analysis of evidence tampering by the SBU, read more .

"'Any person who intentionally and unlawfully' -- that's the key phrase in the wording of Article 168. Its use there means specific intent. Specific intent . A general intent to use missiles on something is not good enough in this case. It is telling that [Berger] does not make the distinction between specific intent versus general intent. That indicates the prosecutors don't think they can prove the necessary specific intent. And if the plane had been shot down by the accused thinking it was engaged in an attack on them or masking [a Ukrainian Air Force] attack on them, then the court cannot convict. That's because the facts would show an accident or a justifiable act of self-defence."

In Dutch courts, there are several of what are called "full defences" to indictments for murder. One is insanity; another [14] is duress. Self-defence is the third full defence; it is spelled out in Article 41 of the Criminal Code:

Source: http://www.ejtn.eu/

European lawyers observing the MH17 trial have noted that Berger failed to mention that. They interpret this as an indication the prosecution already believes Judge Steenhuis has decided on conviction.

"The term 'unlawfully' is used in Article 168", Black continues, "because there may be situations where at sea, for example, a vessel has to be grounded or sunk because it is a danger to other shipping or to the crew -- or to save the crew. It's harder to think of a plane that must be crashed for a comparable reason. But one can anticipate the scenario – for example, when men on the ground believe on reasonable grounds that an aircraft was about to bomb them – when attacking the plane would not be considered unlawful because it is self-defence."

" So the Dutch prosecutors are trying to prove there was an intent [to fire at an aircraft] and therefore they did it, even if there is no evidence they did. I didn't realise courts dealt in smoking guns. They ought to be dealing in hard evidence. The fact that someone fantasizes about a woman and she ends up getting pregnant and then she has a miscarriage can't be turned into the accusation against the man of intent to make her pregnant, and then of causing her miscarriage, and so guilty of bodily harm."

[Jun 12, 2020] Expect legal contortions in The Hague

Jun 12, 2020 | turcopolier.typepad.com

JohninMK , 11 June 2020 at 06:56 PM

On MH17, the Dutch court is now in a bit of a bind. The State Prosecutor has to submit evidence beyond reasonable doubt and he has had to admit this week in court that he does not have that as primarily there are no US satellite photos, not even behind multiple levels of security, that they or the Dutch military have been able to get hold of. He has no real evidence just, as you say Patrick, the fair and honest not obtained under duress evidence from Kiev and the definitely undoctored photo analysis of Bellingcat. Logically the case should now collapse.

Given that that satellite image, as boasted about by Kerry at the time, would have had the Russians bang to rights in a proper court in a major PR coup for the US, I suspect that its non production means that it doesn't exist.

Expect legal contortions in The Hague.

Patrick Armstrong , 11 June 2020 at 07:06 PM
JohninMK. Never believed the official story for a moment. Somebody in Ukraine did it. Who why and how not determined.

https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2015/10/18/mh17-final-report-is-not-a-final-report-its-just-a-limited-hangout-it-tells-as-much-of-the-truth-as-it-has-to-but-no-more/

[May 24, 2020] Trial by Blockhead by Mark Chapman

Notable quotes:
"... Enter the Buk system, with the 9K37 SA-11 missile. It's got the range, it's got the altitude, the Russians have it in active service. Oooo problem. It's got the range, but only if it was fired from inside Ukraine. ..."
"... Anyway, back to the Buk system. And not a moment before time, either – I just re-read that sanctimonious stab above, again; " having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences " What, exactly, is the ridiculous nature of the accusation being presented here? That the Russians gave an anti-aircraft system to the 'militants' without considering they might use it to shoot down an aircraft? How did they not see that coming? The Ukrainian Army shot down a civilian airliner in October of 2001 , and lied about it for as long as it could – interestingly, it took place during joint Ukrainian-Russian air defense exercises on the Crimean peninsula, and Russia tried hard to avoid assigning blame to Ukraine, while at least one Israeli television station claimed the Russians had shot down their own aircraft. This disaster and subsequent lying did not prevent the USA from giving the Javelin missile to Ukraine – did it not occur to them that they might use it to shoot tanks? No due thought to the consequences, obviously. ..."
"... The Buk air-defense system normally consists of at least 4 TELAR launchers , each with 4 missiles on the launch rails, a self-propelled acquisition radar designated by NATO nomenclature as Snow Drift (the radar on the nose of the TELAR unit itself is designated Fire Dome), and a self-propelled command post, for a minimum of 6 vehicles. Also usually part of the system is a mobile crane, to reload the launchers. If you were going to supply an air-defense system to militant rebels, why wouldn't you give them the whole system? In a pinch, you might be able to get away without the command post vehicle, although it is the station that collates all the input from the sensors and makes the decision to assign targets for acquisition, tracking and engagement. If you didn't give them the crane vehicle, and perhaps a logistics truck with some reloads, they would be limited to the missiles that came already mounted – once those were fired, they'd have to abandon the system, because they couldn't reload it. Seems a little wasteful, don't you think? ..."
"... I'm going a little further with my inexpert opinion, to say that the Buk system was selected as the 'murder weapon', because it provides a limited autonomous capability. To be clear, the Fire Dome radar on the nose of the TELAR does have a limited search capability, and once the radar is locked on to a target, the TELAR vehicle is completely autonomous. The purpose of the surveillance radar is to detect the target from far beyond the Fire Dome's range, assign it to a TELAR and thereby direct it to the elevation and bearing of the target so that the TELAR's radar knows exactly where to look, and continue to update its position until the TELAR to which it was assigned has locked on to the target. ..."
"... The Fire Dome radar mounted on the TELAR can search a 120-degree sector in 4 seconds, at an elevation of 6 to 7 degrees. Its search function is maximized for defense against ground attack aircraft, and a single launcher is not looking at 240 degrees of potential air threat axis during each sweep. It is not looking high enough to see an airliner at 30,000 ft+. More importantly for a system which was not designed to shoot down helpless airliners, it leaves two-thirds of a circle unobserved all the time it is searching for a target. And the Russians provided this to the 'militants' for air defense? They should be shot. ..."
"... There is no telling what kind of ordnance might be found in the wreckage itself, as the Ukrainian Army continued to shell the site for days after the crash; doubtless various artillery shells could be found at the crash site, as well, but it would be quite a leap of faith to suggest a Boeing 777 was shot down by artillery. What you would not find is pieces of the SAM that shot it down. ..."
"... Nor is that by any means all. The Dutch investigation which concluded with the preliminary report implied that nothing of any investigative value was found on the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) or the Flight Data Recorder (FDR). Nothing to indicate what might have happened to the aircraft – just that it was flying along, and suddenly it wasn't. How likely is that? No transcript was provided, and I guess that would be expected if there was no information at all. Funny how often that happens with Malaysian airliners; they really need to look at their quality control. Oh; except they don't build the aircraft. Boeing does. I could see there not being any information after the plane began to break up, because both the CVR and the FDR are in the tail , and that broke off before the fuselage hit. But the microphones are in the ceiling of the cockpit and in the microphone and earpiece of the pilots' headsets, which they wear at all times while in flight. The last audio claimed to have been recorded was a course alteration sent by Ukrainian ATC. ..."
"... According to the Malaysian government, there was an early plan by NATO for a military operation involving some 9000 troops to 'secure the crash site', which was forestalled by a covert Malaysian operation which recovered the 'black boxes' and blocked the plan. I have to say that given the many, many other unorthodox and bizarre happenings in the conduct of what was supposed to be a transparent and impartial international investigation, it's getting so nothing much is unbelievable. The Malaysian Prime Minister went on record as believing that the western powers had already concluded that Russia was responsible, and were mostly just going through the motions of investigating. ..."
"... The telephone recordings presented by the SBU as demonstrating Russian culpability were analyzed by OG IT Forensic Services, a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, which concluded the recordings were cut, edited and fabricated . Yet they are relied upon as important evidence of guilt by the Dutch and the JIT. ..."
May 24, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

>Uncle Volodya says, "We become slaves the moment we hand the keys to the definition of reality entirely over to someone else, whether it is a business, an economic theory, a political party, the White House, Newsworld or CNN."

"The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan."

– Adolf Hitler

We're going to do something just a bit different today; the event I want to talk about is current – in the future, actually – but the reference which is the subject of the discussion is almost a year old. and the event it discusses is coming up to its sixth anniversary. The past event was the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 over Ukraine, the future event is the trial in absentia of persons accused by the west of having perpetrated that disaster, and the reference is this piece, by Mark Galeotti, for the Moscow Times: "Russia's Roadmap Out of the MH17 Crisis" .

You all know Mr. Galeotti, I'm sure. Here's his bio, for Amazon:

"Professor Mark Galeotti is a senior researcher at UMV, the Institute of International Relations Prague, and coordinator of its Centre for European Security. Formerly, he was Professor of Global Affairs at New York University and head of History at Keele University. Educated at Cambridge University and the LSE, he is a specialist in modern Russian politics and security and transnational organized crime. And he writes other things for fun, too "

Yes, yes, he certainly does, as you will see. But this bio is extremely modest, albeit he most likely wrote it himself. Mr. Galeotti also authored an excellent blog, In Moscow's Shadows , which was once a go-to reference for crime and legal issues in Russia, a subject in which he seems very well-informed. The blog is still active, although he seems mostly to use it now to advertise podcasts and sell books. That's understandable – it's evident from the blur of titles appended to his name that he's a very busy man. Always has been, really; either as a student or an educator. He also speaks with confidence on the details of military affairs and equipment despite never having been in the military or studied engineering; his education has pretty much all been in history, law or political science.

I know what you will say – many of the greatest reference works on pivotal battles, overall military campaigns and affairs were written by those who had no personal military experience themselves. Mr. Galeotti studied under Dominic Lieven, whose "Russia Against Napoleon" was perhaps the greatest work of military history, rich with detail and insight, that I have ever read. It won him the Wolfson prize for History for 2010, a well-deserved honour. Yet so far as I could make out, Mr. Lieven never served a day in uniform, and if you handed him an AK-47 and said "Here; field-strip this", your likely response would be a blank look. He most certainly was not a witness to the subject military campaign. No; his epic work on Napoleon's invasion of Russia was informed by research, reading the accounts of others who were there at the time, poring over reams of old documents and matching references to get the best picture we have been afforded to date of Napoleon's ignominious defeat through a combination of imperial overreach, a poor grasp of logistics and, most of all, resistance by an adversary who refused to be drawn into playing to Napoleon's strength – the decisive, crushing battle in which the enemy could not retreat, and in which Napoleon would commit all the reserves and crush his enemy to dust.

So it is perfectly possible for an inquisitive mind with no military experience to put together an excellent reference on military happenings which already took place, even if the owner of that mind was not present for the actual event. Given human nature and the capabilities afforded by modern military equipment, it is even possible to forecast future military events with a fair degree of accuracy, going merely by political ambitions and enabling factors, without any personal military experience. After all, the decision-makers who give the orders that send their military forces into battle are often not military men themselves.

Returning for a moment to Mr. Galeotti, it is quite believable that an author with no military background could compose such works as "Armies of the Russian-Ukrainian War" , although there is no serious evidence that Russia is a part of such a conflict in any real military strength. You could write such a book entirely from media references and documentation, which in this case would come almost entirely from the side which claims it is under constant attack by the other – Ukraine. Likewise "Kulikovo 1380; the Battle that Made Russia" . None of us were around in 1380, so we all have to go by historical references, and whoever collects them all into a book first is likely to be regarded as an expert.

No, it's more when we get into how stuff works that I have an issue with it. Like " Spetsnaz: Russia's Special Forces ". Or " The Modern Russian Army ". I'm kind of skeptical about how someone could claim to know the actual internal workings of either organization simply from reading about them in popular references, considering that more than half the material on Russia written in English in western references is rubbish heavily influenced by politics and policy. We would not have to look very far to find examples in which ridiculous overconfidence by one side that it had the other side's number resulted in a horrible surprise. In fact, we would not have to look very far to find an example of this particular author confidently averring to know something inside-out, only to find that version of reality could not be sustained . And I would no more turn to a Senior Non-Resident Fellow at the Institute of International Relations Prague for expert analysis of the "Combat Vehicles of Russia's Special Forces" than I would ask a house painter to cut my hair. Unless I see some recollections of a college-age Galeotti tinkering with drivetrains and differentials until the sun went down from a pure love of mechanics, I am going to go ahead and assume that he knows what the vast majority of us knows about military vehicles – he could pick one out of a lineup which included a melon, a goat and an Armored Personnel Carrier, and if it had a flat tire he could probably fix it given time and the essential equipment.

Just before we move on, the future event: the MH-17 'trial' has been postponed until June 8th , to give defense attorneys more time to prepare after the amazingly fortuitous capture of a 'key witness' in Eastern Ukraine. I'm not going to elaborate here on what a kicking-the-can-down-the-road crock this is; we'll pick that up later. The whole MH-17 'investigation' has been such a ridiculous exercise in funneling the pursuit to a single inescapable conclusion – that Russia shot it down – irrespective of how many points have to be bent to fit the curve that no matter how it comes out, it will stand as perhaps the greatest example of absurd western self-justification ever recorded.

There are a couple of ways of solving a mystery crime. One is to collect evidence, and follow where it takes you. Another is to decide who you want to have been responsible, and then construct a sequence of events in which they might have done it. To do that, especially in this case, we will have to throw out a few assumptions, such as all that stuff about means, motive and opportunity. In the absence of a believable scenario, that is. Let's look at what we have, and what we need, and see how we get from there to here.

First, we need for Ukraine not to have been responsible. That's going to be awkward, because it looks as if the aircraft was shot down by a missile, but the missile had to have come from inside Ukraine, because the aircraft was too far from the nearest point in Russia at the moment it was stricken for the missile to have come from there. But we need Russia to have been responsible, and not Ukraine. Therefore we need a sequence of events in which a Russian missile launcher capable of shooting down an airliner at cruising altitude was inside Ukraine, in a position from which it could have taken the shot.

You know what? We are going to have to look at means, motive and opportunity, just for a second. My purpose in doing so is to illustrate just how improbable the western narrative is, starting from square one. The coup in Ukraine – and anyone who believes it was a 'grass-roots revolution' might as well stop reading right here, because we are going to just get further apart in our impressions of events – followed by the triumphant promise from the revolutionaries to repeal Yanukovych's language laws and make Ukrainian the law of the land touched off the return of Crimea to its ancestral home in the Russian Federation. Crimea was about 65% ethnic Russian by population at the time, and only about 15% Ukrainian, and Crimea had made several attempts to break free of Ukraine before that yet for some reason the west refused steadfastly to accept the results of a referendum which voted in favour of Crimea becoming a part of the Russian Federation, as if it were more believable that a huge ethnic-Russian majority preferred to learn Ukrainian and be governed by Kiev.

Be that as it may, Washington reacted very angrily; much more so than Europe, considering the distance between the United States and Ukraine versus its proximity to Europe. Perhaps that is owed simply to Washington's assumption that every corner of the world looks to it for leadership, and that it must have a position ready on any given situation, regardless how distant. So Washington insisted there must be sanctions against Russia, for stealing Crimea from its rightful owner, Ukraine. We're not really going to get into struggles for freedom and the right to self-determination right now, except to state that the USA considers nothing more important in some cases, while in others it is completely irrelevant. Washington demanded sanctions but much of Europe was reluctant .

"It is notoriously difficult to secure EU agreement on sanctions anywhere because they require unanimity from the 28 member states. There were wide differences over the numbers of Russians and Crimeans to be punished, with countries such as Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Spain reluctant to penalise Moscow for fear of closing down channels of dialogue. The 21 named were on an original list that ran to about 120 people Expanding the numbers on the sanctions list is almost certain to be discussed at the EU summit on Thursday and Friday. Some EU states are torn about taking punitive measures against Russia for fear of undoing years of patient attempts to establish closer ties with Moscow as well as increase trade. The EU has already suspended talks with Russia on an economic pact and a visa agreement The German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, said any measure must leave "ways and possibilities open to prevent a further escalation that could lead to the division of Europe" .

The original list of those to be sanctioned was 120 people. The haggling reduced that to 21. Only 7 of those were Russians. Putin was not included. That was pretty plainly not the United Front That Speaks With One Voice that Washington had envisioned, and the notion that Europe would buy into sanctions that might really do some damage to Russia, albeit there would be economic costs to Europe as well, was a dim prospect.

Gosh – you know what we need? An atrocity which can be quickly tied to Russia, and which will so appall the EU member states that resistance to far-reaching sanctions will collapse. That's called 'motive'. It's just not a motive for Russia. Having just gone far out on a limb and taken back Crimea, to the obvious and vocal fury of the United States, it is a bit of a stretch that Russia was looking for what else it could do that would stir up the world against it.

Means, now. That presents its own dilemma. Because Russia could have shot down an airliner from its own territory. Just not with the weapon chosen. The S-400 could have done it; it has the range, easily. But if you were setting up a scenario in which something happened that you wanted to blame on Russia, but they didn't really do it, you must have the weapon to do it yourself, or access to it. By any reasonable construct, Ukraine must be a suspect as well – there was a hot war going on in Ukraine, Ukraine controlled both the airspace and the aircraft that was lost, and the aircraft was lost over Ukrainian territory. But Ukraine doesn't have the S-400. You could use a variety of western systems, but it would quickly be established that the plane was shot down with a weapon that Russia does not have. In order for the narrative to be believable, Russia must have the weapon – but if it wasn't Russia, then whoever did it must have the weapon, too.

Enter the Buk system, with the 9K37 SA-11 missile. It's got the range, it's got the altitude, the Russians have it in active service. Oooo problem. It's got the range, but only if it was fired from inside Ukraine.

Which brings us back to Mr. Galeotti, an expert in Russian combat systems; enough of an expert to write books on them, anyway. And he plainly believes it was an SA-11 missile fired from a single Buk TELAR (Transporter/Erector/Launcher and Radar) which brought down the Boeing; he says that's what the evidence demonstrates, although by this time (2019) most of the world has backed away from saying Putin showed up with no shirt on to close the firing switch personally (cue the instant British-press screaming headlines before the dust had even settled, "PUTIN'S MISSILE!!!" "PUTIN KILLED MY SON!!!"). Now the story is that the disgraceful deed was done by 'Ukrainian anti-government militants', using a weapon supplied by Russia.

"In this context, a full reversal of policy seems near-enough impossible. The evidence suggests that while the fateful missile was fired by Ukrainian anti-government militants, it was supplied by the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade under orders from Moscow and in a process managed by Russian military intelligence.

To admit this would not only be to acknowledge a share in the unlawful killing of 298 innocents, but also an unpicking of the whole Kremlin narrative over the Donbass. It would mean admitting to having been an active participant in this bloody compound of civil war and foreign intervention, to having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences, and to having lied to the world and the Russian people for half a decade."

We don't really have the scope in this piece to broaden the discussion to Russia's probable actual involvement. Suffice it to say that despite non-stop allegations by Poroshenko throughout his presidency of entire battalions of active-service Russian Army soldiers inside Ukraine, zero evidence has ever been provided of any such presence, although there have been some clumsy attempts to fabricate it . To argue that the Russian Army has been trying to overrun Ukraine for six years now, but has been unable to do so because of the combat prowess of the Ukrainian Army is to imply a belief in leprechauns. This is only my own inexpert opinion, but it seems likely to me the complete extent of Russia's involvement, militarily, is the minimum which prevents Eastern Ukraine from being overrun by the Ukrainian military, and including the rebel areas' own far-from-inconsequential military forces. I'm always ready to entertain competing theories, though; be sure to bring your evidence. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian Constitution prohibits using the country's military forces against its own citizens. The logic of 'Have cake, and eat it" cannot apply here – either the Ukrainian state is in direct and obvious violation of its own constitution or the people of the breakaway regions are not Ukrainian citizens.

Anyway, back to the Buk system. And not a moment before time, either – I just re-read that sanctimonious stab above, again; " having armed the militants without due thought as to the consequences " What, exactly, is the ridiculous nature of the accusation being presented here? That the Russians gave an anti-aircraft system to the 'militants' without considering they might use it to shoot down an aircraft? How did they not see that coming? The Ukrainian Army shot down a civilian airliner in October of 2001 , and lied about it for as long as it could – interestingly, it took place during joint Ukrainian-Russian air defense exercises on the Crimean peninsula, and Russia tried hard to avoid assigning blame to Ukraine, while at least one Israeli television station claimed the Russians had shot down their own aircraft. This disaster and subsequent lying did not prevent the USA from giving the Javelin missile to Ukraine – did it not occur to them that they might use it to shoot tanks? No due thought to the consequences, obviously.

The Buk air-defense system normally consists of at least 4 TELAR launchers , each with 4 missiles on the launch rails, a self-propelled acquisition radar designated by NATO nomenclature as Snow Drift (the radar on the nose of the TELAR unit itself is designated Fire Dome), and a self-propelled command post, for a minimum of 6 vehicles. Also usually part of the system is a mobile crane, to reload the launchers. If you were going to supply an air-defense system to militant rebels, why wouldn't you give them the whole system? In a pinch, you might be able to get away without the command post vehicle, although it is the station that collates all the input from the sensors and makes the decision to assign targets for acquisition, tracking and engagement. If you didn't give them the crane vehicle, and perhaps a logistics truck with some reloads, they would be limited to the missiles that came already mounted – once those were fired, they'd have to abandon the system, because they couldn't reload it. Seems a little wasteful, don't you think?

What about the acquisition radar? Because acquiring targets is all about scanning capability and situational awareness. We're going to assume for a moment that you don't use an air defense system exclusively to hunt for airliners, but that you want to defend yourself against ground-attack aircraft like the Sukhoi SU-25. Because, when you think about it, who is more likely to be trying to kill you ? A Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777, or an SU-25? The latter is not quite as fast as an airliner at its cruising height of 30,000 ft+, but it is very agile and will be nearly down in the treetops if it is attacking you. You need to be able to search all around, all the time.

That's where the acquisition radar comes in. A centimetric waveband search radar, the Snow Drift (called the 9S18M1 by its designer) has 360-degree coverage and from 0 to 40 degrees of height in a 6-second sweep in anti-aircraft mode, with a 160 km detection range, obviously dependent on target altitude. An airliner, being a large target not attempting to evade detection, and at a high altitude, would quite possibly be detected at the maximum range of which the system is capable. But then the operators would certainly know it was an airliner. And the narrative says whoever shot it down probably did so by accident.

Maybe if it was his first day on the job. Let's talk for a minute about air-defense deconfliction. It would be nice if your Command parked you somewhere that there was nothing around you but enemies. Well, not as nice as parking you across the street from a pulled-pork barbecue joint with strippers and cold beer, but from a defense standpoint, it'd be nice to know that anything you detected, you could shoot. Know something? It's never like that. Your own aircraft are flying around as if they didn't even know you are dangerous, and as everyone now knows, civilian airliners continue their transport enterprises irrespective of war except in rare instances in which high-flying aircraft have been shot down by long-range missiles. That rarely happens. Why? Because an aircraft flying a steady course, at 30,000 ft+ and not descending, is no threat to you on the ground. From that altitude it can't even see you in the ground clutter, and it'd be quite a bombardier that could hit a target the size of a two-car garage with a bomb dropped from 30,000 ft while flying at 400 knots.

And unless you are an idiot, you know it is an airliner. When you are deployed into the field in an air-defense role, you know where the commercial airlanes are that are going to be active. You know what a commercial-aviation profile looks like – aircraft at 30,000 ft+ altitude, flying at ≥400 knots on a steady course, squawking Mode 3 and Charlie = airliner. Might as well take a moment here to talk about IFF ; Identification Friend or Foe. This is a coded pulse signal transmitted by all commercial aircraft whenever they are in flight unless their equipment is non-functional, and you are not allowed to take off with it in that state. Mode C provides the aircraft's altitude, taken automatically from its barometric altimeter. All modern air search radars have IFF capability, and a dashed line just below the raw video of the air track can be interrogated with a light-pen to provide the readout. You already know how high the plane is if you have a solid radar track, but Mode C provides a confirmation.

Military aircraft have IFF transponders, too; in fact, most of the modes are reserved for military use. But military aircraft often turn off their IFF equipment, because it provides a giveaway who and where they are. In Ukraine, which uses mostly Soviet military aircraft, both sides are capable of reading each other's IFF, so all the more reason not to transmit. Foreign nations typically cannot read each other's IFF except for the modes which are for both military and civilian use, other than those nations who are allies. Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that the Snow Drift acquisition radar has IFF, and if it detected an airliner-like target at 160 km., the operator would have that much more time to interrogate it and determine it was an airliner. Just to reiterate, the western narrative holds that the destruction of the airliner was a mistake.

I'm going a little further with my inexpert opinion, to say that the Buk system was selected as the 'murder weapon', because it provides a limited autonomous capability. To be clear, the Fire Dome radar on the nose of the TELAR does have a limited search capability, and once the radar is locked on to a target, the TELAR vehicle is completely autonomous. The purpose of the surveillance radar is to detect the target from far beyond the Fire Dome's range, assign it to a TELAR and thereby direct it to the elevation and bearing of the target so that the TELAR's radar knows exactly where to look, and continue to update its position until the TELAR to which it was assigned has locked on to the target.

That autonomous capability is probably what made it attractive to those building the scenario; consider. A complete Buk system of 6, maybe 7 vehicles could hardly get all the way inside Ukraine to the firing position without being noticed and perhaps recorded. But perhaps a single TELAR could do it. The aircraft could be shot down by an SA-11 missile and blamed on Russia – Ukraine has access to plenty of SA-11's. But it is a weapon in the Russian active-service inventory. Further, Galeotti's commitment to the allegation that the single TELAR was provided by Russia's 53rd Air Defense Brigade tells us he supports the crackpot narrative offered by Bellingcat, the loopy citizen-journalist website headed by failed financial clerk Eliot Higgins. Bellingcat claims the Buk TELAR was trucked into Ukraine on the back of a flatbed, took the shot that slew MH-17, and was immediately withdrawn back to Russia.

Ummm .how was that an accident? The Russians gave the Ukrainian militants a single launcher with no crane or reload missiles, so it was limited to a maximum of four shots. Its ability to defend itself from ground attack was almost nil, since the design purpose of mounting a Fire Dome radar on each TELAR is not to make the launcher units autonomous; it is to permit concurrent engagements by several launchers, all coordinated by the acquisition radar and command post. Without a radar of its own on the launcher, the firing unit would have to wait until each engagement was completed before it could switch to a new target, but with a fire-control guidance radar on each TELAR, multiple targets can be assigned to multiple launchers, while the search radar limits itself to acquisition and target assignment.

The Fire Dome radar mounted on the TELAR can search a 120-degree sector in 4 seconds, at an elevation of 6 to 7 degrees. Its search function is maximized for defense against ground attack aircraft, and a single launcher is not looking at 240 degrees of potential air threat axis during each sweep. It is not looking high enough to see an airliner at 30,000 ft+. More importantly for a system which was not designed to shoot down helpless airliners, it leaves two-thirds of a circle unobserved all the time it is searching for a target. And the Russians provided this to the 'militants' for air defense? They should be shot.

A single TELAR with no reloads and no acquisition radar would have to be looking directly at the target when it was activated in order to even see it; it takes 15 seconds for the launcher to swing into line and elevation even when that information is transmitted to it from the acquisition radar. It takes 4 seconds for a scan to be completed when there is a whole two-thirds of a circle that it is not even looking at, and you have to manually force it to search above 7 degrees because it is not designed to shoot down airliners. All this time, the target is crossing the acquisition scope at 400 knots+. Fire Dome has integrated IFF, so if it did by some miracle pick up an airliner in its search, the operator would know from transmitted IFF that he was looking at an airliner. A single TELAR with no reload capability sent on an air-defense mission would have its ass ripped in half by ground-attack aircraft that it never saw – if the autonomous capability is so good, why don't the Ukrainians use them as a single unit? Think of how much air-defense coverage they could provide! Do you see the Ukrainian air-defense units employing the Buk that way? Never. Not once. Four TELARS, acquisition radar vehicle, command vehicle, just the way the system was designed to operate.

Just because it has a limited capability to function in a given capacity should not suggest you would employ it that way. You can use a hockey stick to turn off the bedroom light, and you won't even have to get out of bed. Would you do that? I hope not.

A one-third effective capacity in the air defense role together with the covert delivery and immediate withdrawal suggests that the Russians provided the 'militants' with a single TELAR for the express purpose of shooting down a defenseless airliner. Except nobody is saying that. It was a mistake. Well, except for Head of the Security Service of Ukraine Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, who claimed "Terrorists and militants have planned a cynical terrorist attack on a civilian aircraft Aeroflot AFL-2074 Moscow-Larnaka that was flying at that time above the territory of Ukraine." He further claimed that this was motivated by a desire to 'justify an invasion'. I'm pretty sure if any western authority could prove anything even close to that, we would not have had to wait 6 years for a trial.

Which brings us to the covert delivery and extraction. As part of his personal investigation, Max van der Werff drove the route Bellingcat claimed was the extraction route by which the single TELAR, on its flatbed, was returned to Russia. He verified that there is a highway overpass on the route which is too low for a load that tall to pass underneath. When he pointed this out to Higgins, he was told there is a bypass spur which goes around it, which would allow the flatbed to regain the road beyond without having gone through the overpass. Max drew his attention to the concrete barriers which blocked that road at the top of the hill, and which locals claimed had been in place long before the destruction of MH-17. And that was the end of that conversation. I cannot say enough about the quality of Max's work and his diligent, patient dissection of the evidence . His diagrams of the entry and egress routes as provided by Bellingcat illustrate how little sense they make. It was imperative the guilty Russians get the fuck out of Dodge with the greatest possible dispatch so they drove 100 kilometers out of their way? Don't even terrorist murderers have GPS now?

Similarly, the simpleminded flailing of the Ukrainian investigators suggests they do not even have much of a grasp of how Surface-To-Air missiles work. In excited posts like this one , the BBC discloses that an exhaust vent from the tail section of a 'Buk missile' (the missile is actually the SA-11, while Buk is the entire system) was found in the wreckage of the crashed plane, while this one even shows terminally-stunned head prosecutor Fred Westerbeke standing next to what is allegedly part of the rocket body of an SA-11, including legible inventory markings, also 'found at the crash scene'.

Do tell.

Let me review for you how an SA-11 missile shoots down an aircraft. Does it pierce it like a harpoon, blow up in a thunderous explosion, and ride the doomed aircraft down to the crash site? It certainly does not. The missile blasts out of the launcher and flies to the target via semiactive homing, which means it has an onboard seeker that updates the missile trajectory, while the radar on the launcher also communicates with it and the missile and the target are brought together in intercept. When the proximity fuse of the missile – this is the important part – senses that the missile's warhead is close to the target, the internal explosive detonates, and a shower of prefragmented shrapnel pierces the area of the plane near where the missile detonated, usually the front, because the missile is constantly adjusting to make sure it stays with the target until intercept.

MH-17 traveled on, mostly intact, for miles before it crashed into the ground; the crash site was some 13 miles from where the plane was hit. The missile self-destructed miles away from the crash site, and the only parts of it which accompanied the plane to its impact point were the shrapnel bits of the exploded warhead. The body of the missile, together with the exhaust vent, fell back to the ground somewhere quite close to where the plane was hit, not where it fell. Once the missile's fuel is exhausted, either because it ran out or because it was consumed in the explosion triggered by the proximity fuse, the missile parts do not fly around in formation, seeking out the wreckage and coming gently to rest in it where they can later be found by investigators. I don't know how many times I have to say this, because this is certainly not the first, but there would not be any missile parts in the wreckage of MH-17 because the missile would have blown up in front of the plane without ever touching it. The missile does not hit the plane. The pieces of the warhead do. But reality has to take a back seat to making out an airtight case.

There is no telling what kind of ordnance might be found in the wreckage itself, as the Ukrainian Army continued to shell the site for days after the crash; doubtless various artillery shells could be found at the crash site, as well, but it would be quite a leap of faith to suggest a Boeing 777 was shot down by artillery. What you would not find is pieces of the SAM that shot it down.

Several witnesses claimed to have seen an SU-25 near the plane before it exploded. They quite possibly did – the Ukrainian Air Force was observed to be using civilian airliners as cover to allow them to get close to Eastern-Ukrainian villages which might be protected by hand-held launchers known as MANPADS (for Man-Portable Air Defense System), reasoning the defenders would not shoot if they were afraid they might hit a civil aircraft. Once they were close enough to the village or other target to make an attack run, they would then return to the vicinity of the airliner for protection while withdrawing; the rebel side complained about this illegal and immoral practice a month before the destruction of MH-17. But there is no evidence I am aware of linking the destruction of MH-17 to an attack by aircraft.

It may no longer be possible to look at the shooting-down of the Malaysian Boeing objectively; the event has become a partisan rush to judgment which was rendered immediately, after which an investigation began which plainly had as its goal proving the accusations already made. Means and motive clearly favour the accusers rather than the accused, and opportunity is mostly irrelevant as a consideration. Ukraine obviously had to be a suspect – the destruction of the aircraft occurred over Ukraine while Ukraine was in control of it and the airspace in which it traveled. Yet Ukraine was allowed to lead the investigation, and to gather and safeguard evidence, while the owner of the aircraft – Malaysia – was excluded until the investigation had been in progress for four months. Russia was not allowed any part in it save to yield whatever evidence the investigators demanded, while all its theories were widely mocked. Demonstrations set up by Almaz-Antey, the designers and builders of the SA-11, were unattended by any investigating nation – small wonder they do not have Clue One how the missile works, and believe they are going to find big chunks of it in the wreckage, perhaps with Putin's passport stuck to one of them. If any of these conditions prevailed in an investigation which favoured Russia, NATO would scream as if it were being run over with spiked wheels – if the Boeing had been shot down over Russia, who thinks Russia would have been heading the investigation, and custodian of the evidence?

Nor is that by any means all. The Dutch investigation which concluded with the preliminary report implied that nothing of any investigative value was found on the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) or the Flight Data Recorder (FDR). Nothing to indicate what might have happened to the aircraft – just that it was flying along, and suddenly it wasn't. How likely is that? No transcript was provided, and I guess that would be expected if there was no information at all. Funny how often that happens with Malaysian airliners; they really need to look at their quality control. Oh; except they don't build the aircraft. Boeing does. I could see there not being any information after the plane began to break up, because both the CVR and the FDR are in the tail , and that broke off before the fuselage hit. But the microphones are in the ceiling of the cockpit and in the microphone and earpiece of the pilots' headsets, which they wear at all times while in flight. The last audio claimed to have been recorded was a course alteration sent by Ukrainian ATC.

According to the Malaysian government, there was an early plan by NATO for a military operation involving some 9000 troops to 'secure the crash site', which was forestalled by a covert Malaysian operation which recovered the 'black boxes' and blocked the plan. I have to say that given the many, many other unorthodox and bizarre happenings in the conduct of what was supposed to be a transparent and impartial international investigation, it's getting so nothing much is unbelievable. The Malaysian Prime Minister went on record as believing that the western powers had already concluded that Russia was responsible, and were mostly just going through the motions of investigating.

The telephone recordings presented by the SBU as demonstrating Russian culpability were analyzed by OG IT Forensic Services, a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, which concluded the recordings were cut, edited and fabricated . Yet they are relied upon as important evidence of guilt by the Dutch and the JIT.

The conduct of the investigation has been all the way across town from transparent, and in fact seems to represent a clique of cronies getting their heads together to attempt nailing down a consistent narrative, which is in the judgment of forensic professionals based upon clumsy fabrications. The investigators plainly have no understanding of how the weapons systems involved perform, or they would not claim confidently to have discovered pieces of the very missile that destroyed the plane in the wreckage of it. But rather than take an objective look at how this flailing is perceived, they continue to rely on momentum and the appearance of getting things done while being scrupulously impartial, all the while that more mountains of evidence are collected, which they cannot disclose to the public, although it is all right to let the prime suspect keep it safe under wraps.

Make of that what you will.

" Bullshit is unavoidable whenever circumstances require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about. Thus the production of bullshit is stimulated whenever a person's obligations or opportunities to speak about some topic exceed his knowledge of the facts that are relevant to that topic. "

-Harry G. Frankfurt

[May 24, 2020] Bellingcrap's bread-and-butter is to use satellite photos and make them say whatever Bellingcrap had been tasked to say they were

Notable quotes:
"... This was Bellingcrap's bread-and-butter function, to use satellite photos and make them say whatever Bellingcrap had been tasked to say they were, relying on the fact that mainstream media organisations rarely employ people expert in interpreting satellite imagery, before people outside the MSM environment started voicing suspicions about how the "evidence" for the official MH17 narrative was being worked and whipped into shape to fit that narrative. ..."
May 24, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Jen May 24, 2020 at 4:35 pm

" The point is that we often tend to believe satellite photography shows what its presenters say it shows because we do not have the skill to interpret it ourselves "

This was Bellingcrap's bread-and-butter function, to use satellite photos and make them say whatever Bellingcrap had been tasked to say they were, relying on the fact that mainstream media organisations rarely employ people expert in interpreting satellite imagery, before people outside the MSM environment started voicing suspicions about how the "evidence" for the official MH17 narrative was being worked and whipped into shape to fit that narrative.

It's my understanding that there is a company in Colorado, called Digital something or other, that supplies a huge amount of satellite imagery to the US government and other big clients.

Aha, just found the company: Digital Globe .

[May 24, 2020] Australia should stop fabricating evidence of Russian involvement in the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, and withdraw from the Dutch show trial which is scheduled to resume hearings in Amsterdam next month

May 24, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Jen May 24, 2020 at 4:24 am

Incidentally not long after China slapped anti-dumping tariffs on Australian barley (and switched to buying barley from the US) and suspended beef imports from four Australian abattoirs, Australia's foreign minister Maryse Payne phoned her Russian counterpart apparently to request that Russia send more tourists to Australia and buy more Australian products. Imagine Sergei Lavrov's initial reaction before he went straight into his diplomatic persona. As John Helmer bluntly puts it :

" Lavrov replied that Australia should stop fabricating evidence of Russian involvement in the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, and withdraw from the Dutch show trial which is scheduled to resume hearings in Amsterdam next month "

Another source is rather more circumspect:

" Russian Foreign Minister [Lavrov] informed [Payne] that Russia will disseminate in the UN a comprehensive document with the facts revealing the serious problems in the operation of the Netherlands-established Joint Investigative Team (JIT).

Mr Sergey Lavrov criticised the JIT and said their activities fail to conform to the high standards set by UN Security Council Resolution 2166.

"Russian experts are ready to hold consultations with their Australian and Netherlands colleagues to clear up answers to the numerous questions put during their cooperation with the JIT", he maintained "

Looks like Australia is now between a rock and a hard place. Payne must be really thick to think that she could play Russia off China.

Mark Chapman May 24, 2020 at 9:23 am
Nobody seems to catch on that it's always Washington, manipulating and meddling and getting its poodles to yap for it, and it is the poodles who bear the consequences, while nothing much accrues to the manipulator. It will be the same with the Huawei affair, mentioned elsewhere here; it is looking more like Washington will get its way and all its allies will cave and reject all Huawei gear, whereupon they will all end up with a less-capable and more-expensive 5G network which meets with American approval, and the allies will pay the cost in trade reprisals by China.

[May 02, 2020] Bellingcat latest!

May 02, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile April 28, 2020 at 4:00 am

Bellingcat latest!

Key MH17 Figure Identified As Senior FSB Official: Colonel General Andrey Burlaka
April 28, 2020

Oh golly gosh!!!!!

Mark Chapman April 28, 2020 at 9:40 am
Mmmm .right. His first name is Vladimir, but everyone calls him Andrei on the phone. The middle name "Ivanovich" is so unusual in Russia as to have led the investigators straight to him. Like if I was doing an investigation in America, and the people on the phone kept referring to a 'William Donald", and my team and I decided to accuse Roscoe Donald Peterson because he also has the middle name "Donald". Brilliant investigative work. Remind me to make a donation.
Jen April 28, 2020 at 3:32 pm
Maybe The Atlantic Council's algorithm that runs through the Moscow telephone-book database needs replacing. I'm sure it would be pretty worn out after identifying Ruslan Boshirov as Anatoly Chepiga and Alexander Petrov as Alexander Mishkin and is now prone to making mistakes such as confusing a name like "Vladimir" with "Andrei". Next thing you know, Bellingcrap will be telling us that Andrei Kozyrev is the current Russian President because his middle name is Vladimirovich too.

[Apr 27, 2020] Anton Gerashenko is the person that put early (in the first few hours) MH17 propaganda on social media

Apr 27, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU1 , Apr 26 2020 23:24 utc | 39

rt.com/news
Further details on the case were shared by the Deputy Interior Minister Anton Gerashenko on his Facebook page. The ring involved the head of the clinic, her son, as well as two other Ukrainian and three Chinese nationals. They were charged with human trafficking that may lead to 12 years in prison with property confiscation.
The majority of the clinic's clients were single Chinese males of "certain orientation," as Gerashenko put it. While the exact number of trafficked babies remains unknown, at least 140 more Chinese nationals are under investigation, the official added.

Anton Gerashenko is the person that put early (in the first few hours) MH17 propaganda on social media. The so called intercepted radio calls between rebels and also photograph supposedly of BUK launch.
Looks like Gerashenko is doing his bit for the China decoupling.


[Apr 17, 2020] MH17 was the tool to separate EU from Russia.

Apr 17, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU1 , Apr 16 2020 2:31 utc | 95

MH17 was the tool to separate EU and the US west from Russia. Covid-19 is the tool to separate the US west from China.

Majority of people in the west will believe the anti China - China dunnit crap that is being pumped out by the US and all MSN.

Reuters running an article on Iran speed boats harassing US coast guard vessels When they were innocently conducting helicopter integration exercises. I guess Iran moved its country to close to the US.

Trump regime says it wants to have discussions with Iraq in June about moving out. I guess that means Trump will be making his move on Persian gulf oil before June.

Whatever is coming this covid bullshit is just the beginning - a planned move setting the stage for what is to come.

[Mar 25, 2020] The judge in the MH17 trial has issued an order for the US satelite data showing images of the Buk missile being launched to be made available.

Mar 25, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

ADKC , Mar 24 2020 17:21 utc | 22

The judge in the MH17 trial has issued an order for the US satelite data showing images of the Buk missile being launched to be made available. If the prosecution is unable (or refuses) to produce these images then this would strongly indicate that:

1. There was no Buk and MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet (which the very first, on the ground, eyewitnesses indicated).

2. The US was involved in this crime.

JUDGE DROPS A BOMBSHELL IN MH17 TRIAL – DUTCH PROSECUTORS CONCEAL COURT ORDER TO PRODUCE US SATELLITE DATA ALLEGEDLY SHOWING BUK MISSILE FIRING (John Helmer)


Peter AU1 , Mar 24 2020 17:58 utc | 24

ADKC 22

I tend to think US does have sat recording of the missile. It will show launch flare and rocket burn. It was quite clear by what Kerry said that this is what their sats pick up. Launch flare will show launch position to within a few meters.

Robert Parry did a piece on it a few weeks after the shootdown. His contact in the US intel thought sat pics of the position were showing Ukraine military.

ADKC , Mar 24 2020 19:29 utc | 40
Perter AU1 @24

This is what Kerry said within a few days of the MH17 downing:

"We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from."

But still, nearly 6 years later, no evidence has been provided? Surely you can see how inauthentic Kerry's statement is? Perhaps, Kerry could clear the matter up by being a witness at the MH17 trial?

Robert Parry's CIA source feels like an authorised leak and psyop exercise that reinforces the idea of a Buk and expresses concern about the possibility of Ukrainian military involvement (the true purpose of which is to create distance and absolve the US) whilst at the same time being meaningless and of no real value.

You "tend" to believe Kerry and a CIA leak and discount what ordinary Ukrainians witnessed on the day of the shootdown? Why????

[Mar 11, 2020] Steve Rosenberg @BBCSteveR: In an interview, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova claims that "politics is dominating" in the #MH17 case and calls me "a piece of propaganda."

Mar 11, 2020 | twitter.com

Serbian Patriot @PatriotSerbian · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Fundamental flaws remain in the JIT's final verdict. Feel free to debate these critical points Steve: ( https:// 21stcenturywire.com/2019/06/23/des pite-its-official-verdict-fundamental-flaws-remain-in-dutch-jit-mh17-investigation/ ) Despite its 'Official' Verdict, Fundamental Flaws Remain in Dutch JIT MH17 Investigation 21WIRE | After an elaborate five year, NATO member state-led process, not everyone is convinced by the JIT's politicized conclusion. 21stcenturywire.com taseenb @taseenb · 19h Replying to @BBCSteveR She's amazing and she's right. I would have called you a mercenary though, which is more accurate orbi @kwo_vadis · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Have you talked to the Skripals? Deborah Wylde @flamingyam · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Why did you ignore her questions? Instead, avoiding them by throwing more accusations at her. Mark Curtis @markcurtis30 · Mar 9 I've written a lot on the media over the years but the current state of UK press reporting on UK foreign policy is shocking. There is no news system, the public is being misinformed, the press (from Tory to "liberal") acts largely as an appendage of the state. Please see thread. https:// twitter.com/declassifiedUK Arthur Tewungwa @ATewungwa · Mar 9 Replying to @BBCSteveR Love the way Mahathir Mohammed the PM of the country's whose plane has been shot down is relegated to a spectator. The BBC shamelessly tie his rejection of the allegation thrown at Russia with the sale of Palm oil, further portraying Malaysia as an economic basket case. Really Thinking face

[Mar 11, 2020] Apparently the Dutch are actually going ahead with a trial over the MH-17 plane shootdown, seeking to convict in absentia three Russians and a Ukrainian.

Mar 11, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

jayc , Mar 10 2020 20:56 utc | 26

Apparently the Dutch are actually going ahead with a trial over the MH-17 plane shootdown, seeking to convict in absentia three Russians and a Ukrainian. It is my understanding that a Dutch military report effectively ruled out exactly the scenario proposed for this trial, and did so several years ago.

Malaysia has provided the dissent to the MH-17 investigation to date, although a newly elected government may seek to pull back from overt criticism in the future. A Malaysian diplomat who has been involved has rather pointed things to say about the politicization of the investigation and the questionable motivations of the Ukrainians, and claims the court case is based on hearsay and a voice recording with no provenance.
https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/is-malaysias-position-on-mh-17-tragedy-shifting/

[Mar 06, 2020] Records show that at their meeting on February 12, 2016, the JIT officials agreed that the "requested information" identified in the December 4, 2015, meeting and including the US satellite data, was "yet to be completed

Mar 06, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

evilempire , Mar 6 2020 1:01 utc | 42

New leaked documents in the mh17 investigation revealed by Max Van der Werff

and expounded upon by John Helmer:

"These records show that at their meeting on February 12, 2016, the JIT officials agreed that the "requested information" identified in the December 4, 2015, meeting and including the US satellite data, was "yet to be completed."

Instead, the only civilian satellite evidence which the JIT later said it has used, comes from the European Space Agency. In the JIT report of September 28, 2016, the Dutch said "the European Space Agency (ESA) has aided the investigation team extensively in the search for relevant images from satellites. This has shown to be of great value: Not only did ESA obtain images of all relevant civilian satellites, but they also have experts who have assessed these images. The conclusions drawn by ESA confirm the conclusions of the investigation team with regard to the launch site."

Note that the JIT refers here to civilian satellites.

The leak last month from the JIT files of two reports from MIVD, the Dutch military intelligence agency, both dated September 21, 2016, has identified US and NATO military satellite intelligence ("partner informatie") as the source for MIVD's conclusions that no Russian BUK missile radar and launch units had crossed the border into Ukraine before or on July 17, 2014; no BUK missile radar targeting or firing on MH17 had been detected; and no identified Russian units on the Russian side of the border had launched missiles."

If the US and military satellite images contradict the ESA images, then one set of images is a fabrication. We
can deduce that the ESA images are almost certainly fabrications because if no Russian buk crossed the border then
all those photos and videos the jit lynch mob have been trumpeting are fake, essentially reducing the jit's credibility to zero.

[Feb 28, 2020] Media s Deafening Silence On Latest WikiLeaks Drops Is Its Own Scandal by Caitlin Johnstone

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... Yet the mass media, freakishly, has had absolutely nothing to say about this extremely newsworthy story. ..."
"... The mass media's stone-dead silence on the OPCW scandal is becoming its own scandal, of equal or perhaps even greater significance than the OPCW scandal itself. It opens up a whole litany of questions which have tremendous importance for every citizen of the western world; questions like, how are people supposed to participate in democracy if all the outlets they normally turn to to make informed voting decisions adamantly refuse to tell them about the existence of massive news stories like the OPCW scandal? How are people meant to address such conspiracies of silence when there is no mechanism in place to hold the entire mass media to account for its complicity in it? And by what mechanism are all these outlets unifying in that conspiracy of silence? ..."
"... This is the FOURTH leak showing how the OPCW fabricated a report on a supposed Syrian 'chemical' attack," tweeted journalist Ben Norton. "And mainstream Western corporate media outlets are still silent, showing how authoritarian these 'democracies' are and how tightly they control info." "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," "Media silence on this story is its own scandal," tweeted journalist Aaron Matι. ..."
Dec 28, 2019 | caitlinjohnstone.com

This is getting really, really, really weird. WikiLeaks has WikiLeaks has published yet another set of leaked internal documents from within the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) adding even more material to the mountain of evidence that we've been lied to about an alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma, Syria last year which resulted in airstrikes upon that nation from the US, UK and France.

... ... ...

[Feb 25, 2020] Another strong nail in the coffin cover of the official version of the "investigation" of the MH-17 crash in Ukraine in 2014

Feb 25, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

alaff , Feb 23 2020 15:49 utc | 9

Another strong nail in the coffin cover of the official version of the "investigation" of the MH-17 crash in Ukraine in 2014.

However, liars will bring this six-year farce to the end. Soon the so-called "court" will take place, and we will see another funny performance of the clowns (aka "investigators").

[Jan 31, 2020] The present Dutch PM Rutte is more of a CIA poodle than Tony Blair was. MH17 a case in point.

Jan 31, 2020 | off-guardian.org

Antonym ,

The present Dutch PM Rutte is more of a CIA poodle than Tony Blair was. MH17 a case in point. The Dutch judicial set up is populated with similar drones: the assassin of prominent Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn is walking free after less jail time than other criminals. Holland is gone to the dogs.

[Jan 29, 2020] One of the passengers killed on the the Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS752 was a businesswoman who ran two companies involved in running illegal arms and parts for military drones to Libya.

Jan 29, 2020 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Jen January 25, 2020 at 8:36 pm

An unexpected bit of good news (if true) from the Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS752 crash in Tehran: one of the passengers killed on the flight was a businesswoman who ran two companies involved in running illegal arms and parts for military drones to Libya.

"Ukrainian jet victim ran company suspected by UN of violating Libyan arms embargo"
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/24/europe/ukrainian-crash-victim-olena-malakhova-libya-iran-intl/index.html

Mark Chapman January 25, 2020 at 9:29 pm
Well, well; and the Ukrainian government backed her claims that there was no military cargo aboard the company plane that was blown up in Misrata. Makes you wonder how much jiggerypokery on the part of the Ukrainian government the USA is prepared to absorb, considering it was allegedly Solemani's plans to 'hurt Americans' that caused the USA to whack him. But here is a business associate of the Ukrainian government transferring military technology to tribal warlords in Libya.

Oh, I forgot – the USA needs to fight Russia in Ukraine so that it doesn't have to fight Russia in New York. So I guess that means they get a free pass.

Jen January 26, 2020 at 2:59 am
You have to wonder though, Malakhova was one of two Ukrainian passengers (I think) on a jet that was otherwise composed of diaspora Iranians. The plane was flying to Kiev and then presumably going straight to Toronto, to judge from the number of Iranian-background passengers with Canadian passports. What business did Malakhova have that she had been in Tehran to catch a UIA flight to go to Kiev? She must have had a reason to be there, if not to go sightseeing.
Jen January 26, 2020 at 3:21 am
Lo and behold! Able to answer my own query about the reason for Malakhova's presence in Tehran within a matter of minutes! She wasn't in Tehran just to admire the touristy sights.

It is now confirmed: Olena Malakhova, director of #SkyAviaTrans which played key role in illegal weapon smuggling from #Turkey to #Libya is among victims of Flight #PS752 shot-down! She was in #Iran to discuss about one of her businessjets in use as an Air Taxi in #Tehran . https://t.co/TYWk6DgwV7 pic.twitter.com/ztEu4ETwrT

-- Babak Taghvaee (@BabakTaghvaee) January 24, 2020

Air taxis would be very convenient for ferrying small quantities of goods on short trips within Iran or from Iran to somewhere else not far from the Iranian border – like Afghanistan on one side, Azerbaijan on another side or Kurdish-held northern Iraq and Turkey on yet another side.

Like Like

[Jan 24, 2020] Peter Hitchen to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat: You're not in the ladies' lingerie trade now, sweetie

Highly recommended!
Kevin Smith: "Higgins is currently frantically trying to prop up the Douma narrative against a mountain of evidence disproving his conclusions. For those who’ve followed his story, it’s clear that Higgins is an intelligence asset, set up to take the fall when the currently collapsing narratives take hold in the mainstream.
Jan 24, 2020 | off-guardian.org

"You didn't think that one through, did you, @eliothiggins sweetie? You're not in the ladies' lingerie trade now. This discussion is about truth, which endures, is not held together by elastic, and is not for sale." ~Peter Hitchens responding to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat over the OPCW scandal on Twitter – 2 January 2020.

[Jan 24, 2020] Crimes of the century truth, perception and punishment

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... I believe more people nowadays recognise that the devastating wars in Iraq and Libya and events in Syria were pushed by our governments and media. They can even accept, when you explain, that we've been assisting terrorists to unseat governments for years. But they seem hesitant of taking the next step and we need to encourage them on this path. ..."
"... This path leads to recognising the sheer evil in our midst and getting out of this mindset that criminal behavior and lying in governments and in our media is normal or should in any way be tolerated. Perhaps some people appreciate this already but don't want to address it out of concern to what they might find. Maybe some people dread the thought of a global conflict so ignore it. But we need to hammer home the consequences of simply doing nothing. ..."
"... I've been trying to think of an analogy to try to get this point across. I sometimes say to people, we wouldn't have released a serial killer like Harold Shipman from prison and appointed him Foreign Secretary. Therefore, why do we tolerate a long line of Foreign Secretaries complicit in laying waste to the world? Sadly, with this analogy most people usually look back at me blankly so I have been searching for one more complete and rooted in history which people can relate better to events today. ..."
Jan 24, 2020 | off-guardian.org

Kevin Smith

"You didn't think that one through, did you, @eliothiggins sweetie? You're not in the ladies' lingerie trade now. This discussion is about truth, which endures, is not held together by elastic, and is not for sale."
Peter Hitchens responding to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat over the OPCW scandal on Twitter – 2 January 2020.

Like many, I've been following the Douma scandal for some time and particularly since the OPCW whistleblowers and leaked emails blew the lid off the official narrative that Assad used chemical weapons there.

This issue is being discussed on one of my 'go to' accounts on Twitter – Peter Hitchens who has brought this to the attention of the mainstream .

For the past few weeks he's been debating the topic with Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat, Scott Lucas and various Middle East based journalists who created and then pushed the false narrative.

In fact, it's not really a debate. Peter Hitchens is quite literally slaughtering these narrative managers – his logic and clear thinking – and wit exposing the numerous gaps in their story and their desperate deflections.

Hitchens position is not exactly the same as many of us here hold – that Douma was a clear false flag. What he is saying is the evidence points to there being no chemical attack by the Syrian government, the pretext used for the attack on Syria. He doesn't wish to speculate on matters which aren't conclusively proven, for example precisely on what did actually happen.

I respect that position in many ways and his refusal to comment on the dead civilians in the Douma images makes sense from a journalist in the mainstream. I think by having a position which is clear and unassailable enables him to easily brush off his online detractors and not allow them to deflect to other issues.

While I don't agree with everything he says, Hitchens has a calm and rational argument for all the issues he covers. This puts clear ground between him and his online opponents who often resort to childish abuse.

My 80-year old mum admires him too. She describes him as 'frightfully posh'. Perhaps someone who might have belonged in a previous age – but I'm glad we have him in this one.

Anyway, I think we can be sure that Hitchens will continue his important work within the remit he's chosen and others will investigate the unanswered questions which arise from the Douma incident.

Ultimately the question about the dead civilians in the images is simply too dreadful to ignore.

This is because if a chemical attack did not take place and Assad was not responsible it seems highly likely that the civilians including children were murdered to facilitate a fabrication.

And were our own intelligence agencies involved in a staged event, considering the refusal to even establish the basic facts in the days following?

And then, of course, the resulting air strikes nearly caused us to go to war with Russia, with all that would entail.

While these investigations continue, I think it's timely to see where these events fit into the way the general public think and perceive wrongdoing and to try to radically to change this.

I believe more people nowadays recognise that the devastating wars in Iraq and Libya and events in Syria were pushed by our governments and media. They can even accept, when you explain, that we've been assisting terrorists to unseat governments for years. But they seem hesitant of taking the next step and we need to encourage them on this path.

This path leads to recognising the sheer evil in our midst and getting out of this mindset that criminal behavior and lying in governments and in our media is normal or should in any way be tolerated. Perhaps some people appreciate this already but don't want to address it out of concern to what they might find. Maybe some people dread the thought of a global conflict so ignore it. But we need to hammer home the consequences of simply doing nothing.

I've been trying to think of an analogy to try to get this point across. I sometimes say to people, we wouldn't have released a serial killer like Harold Shipman from prison and appointed him Foreign Secretary. Therefore, why do we tolerate a long line of Foreign Secretaries complicit in laying waste to the world? Sadly, with this analogy most people usually look back at me blankly so I have been searching for one more complete and rooted in history which people can relate better to events today.

So, here follows an analogy of a character who lived in the 17th century. His traits, his crimes, the political climate and peoples misguided perceptions in response can be compared to recent events and one particular individual causing havoc in the world today.

Of course I refer to Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat.

Eliot ( 'suck my balls' ) Higgins and Titus Oates 1. Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat

Higgins probably doesn't need much of an introduction here. It seems he has no specific qualifications relevant to his role and a bit of a drop-out in terms of education.

Higgins has been quoted as saying :

Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo."

But this didn't prevent him blogging about world events and then setting himself up and his site as investigator for several incidents most notably the shooting down of the MH17 passenger plane over Ukraine and allegations of chemical weapons use in Syria. It's now known that Bellingcat is funded by pro-war groups including the Atlantic Council

Higgins has been accused by chemical weapons experts, academics and independent journalists on the ground of fabricating evidence to reach a predetermined outcome decided on by his funders.

His rise to prominence was fast and apparently some media editors now refer their journalists to Bellingcat fabrications rather than allowing them to do any journalism themselves.

Higgins is currently frantically trying to prop up the Douma narrative against a mountain of evidence disproving his conclusions.

For those who've followed his story, it's clear that Higgins is an intelligence asset, set up to take the fall when the currently collapsing narratives take hold in the mainstream.

2. Titus Oates and the Popish Plot

Oates was a foul-mouthed charlatan , serial liar and master of deception who lived in the 17th century. His earlier life included being expelled from school and he was labelled a 'dunce' by people who knew him. He became a clergyman and later joined the Navy. His career was plagued by various sex scandals and charges of perjury.

In the 1670s during the time of Charles II, religious tensions threatened to spill over into civil war but the pragmatic King, by and large, kept a lid on it.

However, along with Dr Israel Tonge an anti-Catholic rector, Oates started writing conspiracy theories and inventing plots and later began writing a manuscript alleging of a plan to assassinate King Charles II and replace him with his openly Catholic brother.

When the fabrication started to gather momentum, the King had an audience with Oates and was unconvinced and was said to have found discrepancies in his story.

However, the tense political and religious climate at that time was ideal for conspiracy theories and scaremongering. The King's ministers took Oates at his word and over a dozen Catholics were executed for treason. This story created panic and paranoia lasting several years taking the nation to the brink of civil war.

Over time Oates lies were exposed and when the Catholic King James II came to the throne, he tried Oates with perjury and he was whipped and placed in the pillory.

After James II fled England during the so-called 'Glorious Revolution' King William and Queen Mary pardoned Oates and gave him a pension.

For me, this whole episode has many obvious parallels with Higgins, the long-running Russia and the anti-Semitism witch-hunts in the media and the false narratives over Iraq, Libya and Syria. Like those in power today, Oates had a knack for getting away with it. And I guess we can all relate this to Julian Assange – the victims or whistleblowers being punished and the perpetrators getting off.

I had wondered why James II, often ruthless and unforgiving had not executed Oates. But apparently the crime of perjury even then didn't carry the death sentence. The judge who convicted Oates was said to have tried his best to finish him off through the whipping, though he survived.

But perhaps even the King and judiciary in failing in this or not using other means at their disposal, couldn't comprehend the enormity of his crimes. Oates was after all a rather absurd character, open to ridicule.

Perhaps this is a bit similar to people today when discovering that Eliot Higgins is also a foul-mouthed fraud – but they can't reconcile this comical ex-lingerie employee as a menace to humanity.

3. Modern day

In the past few weeks I've read various older articles on Iraq and Syria. US troops shooting people for fun from a helicopter . The perpetrators are still free – the whistle-blowers who exposed that, and other events in prison or exile.

Last year we learned about a shocking massacre of Syrian children, unreported in the mainstream media . Mainstream journalists through their one-sided distortions of the conflict and silence, perpetuating the myth that the terrorists who carried out this mass murder are freedom fighters.

And as I've mentioned, we've seen firmer evidence of what many of us knew along – that Douma was a staged fabrication as a pretext for air-strikes and dangerously escalating the Syrian war. The likes of Eliot Higgins and others in the media, colluding in the cover-up of mass murder which likely facilitated this event. And for those honest journalists and experts who bring the truth of these staged events to us, smears will no doubt continue .

Higgins and others in the media who lie, misinform or remain silent are no better than those shooting civilians from helicopters or starting these wars in the first place. In fact, they have killed more and keep killing.

This modern-day Titus Oates, and others share a big responsibility for death and destruction in the Middle East and a dangerous new Cold War.

As I say, I think people are waking up to the distorted narratives and misdirections which have inflicted war on others. Now they need to take the next step and grasp the sheer enormity of the crimes and the risks of global conflict if we don't act.

So, how do we achieve this and get in a position of holding the criminals and war propagandists to account?

By confronting them directly and mercilessly. As Jeremy Corbyn should have done over the anti-Semitism hoax. Perhaps we should adopt some of the tactics they use against the truth-tellers and whistle-blowers. I don't mean by lies or smears. Maybe even ridiculing these people and their nonsense might have the effect of trivialising the crimes they have committed.

No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people for the true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks.

We need to recognise more the seriousness of the crimes. This commentary from the usually measured Piers Robinson about the staged event in Douma reflects the true gravity of the situation in terms of the OPCW complicity .

4. The hijacking of OPCW

The cover-up of evidence that the Douma incident was staged is not merely misconduct. As the staging of the Douma incident entailed mass murder of civilians, those in OPCW who have suppressed the evidence of staging are, unwittingly or otherwise, colluding with mass murder."

We need to now apply this strong language to all crimes committed, be it from the soldiers on the ground, the governments starting these wars or supplying terrorists or the media which promote mass murder through their lies, distortions and silence when presented with the true facts.

We need to go on the offensive and call out the criminals and spell out in no uncertain terms what we are dealing with. With the evidence and fact-based analogies or arguments we publish we should be using more commentary such as 'mass murderer', 'traitor' or 'terrorist propagandist'.

This is particularly important in light of events in recent days. The assassination of General Qasem Soleimani has been normalised in both mainstream and on social media. The people legitimising state-sponsored murder in offices thousands of miles away from Iran, woefully ignorant of the potential of this causing a chain of events which could visit our door soon.

Above all, we should specifically name and shame the individuals promoting war. This needs to be relentless. The official war narratives which have crumbled so far are ample evidence of wrongdoing on a vast scale. So, we can be confident in doing this with the truth firmly on our side.

Filed under: Douma "Chemical Attack" , historical perspectives , latest , Syria Tagged with: Bellingcat. Eliot Higgins , douma chemical attack , Glorious Revelution , Kevin Smith , OPCW , Peter Hitchens , Titus Oates can you spare $1.00 a month to support independent media

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wardropper ,

No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people for the true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks.
Yes indeed.
I was, however, reminded today of the huge mountain we yet have to climb before it can be normal again NOT to be corrupt and wicked. The scenario was a session of acrimony in a US Senate chamber, and according to the NYTimes, "Tensions grew so raw after midnight that Chief Justice Roberts cut in just before 1 a.m. to admonish the managers and the president's lawyers to "remember where they are" and return to "civil discourse." "
"Remembering where you are", when dealing with Titus Oates and other vulgar frauds is perhaps not entirely appropriate ?

wardropper ,

Apologies, I forgot to set the first sentence in quotes

Thom ,

Hitchens may be on the level on this particular issue but it is part of a wider deception where Hitchens poses as a friend to critical thinkers and then tells them they are helpless and/or can do nothing about it. If he really had journalistic integrity he wouldn't be taking a salary from the Mail on Sunday, a newspaper that relentlessly lied for the Tories at the last election, with the help of the itelligence agencies.

Koba ,

As good as Hitchens has done here he's still at heart a Trotskyist he lives a good split and a toothless display just like the Trotskyists he used to side with. His brother went from Trotskyist to soft neocon and peter went from Trotskyist to an ardent Christian Conservative in a veeeeeery short space of time. Plus there dad was deeeeep in with the establishment and his mum Jewish. So .

Richard Le Sarc ,

what?

Gall ,

Bellingcrap is just another scam like Dupes (Snopes) and Politi"facts". All of them are funded by the Atlantic Council and the CIA front National Endowment for "Democracy". Their cover as an "independent objective fact checking service" is about as transparent as Saran Wrap.

tonyopmoc ,

I really liked this when I read it this morning, before the grandkids came round, but I thought some of the comments a bit severe..

I mean this photo is of some 40 year old kid, who lives in Leicester, and his Mum/wife/sister or whatever works in the local Post Office .

I personally had never heard of Brown Noses, and I have never personnally succeeded in getting anything I wrote, posted above our below the line, since The Manchester Guardian moved from Manchester to London, and whilst I do love reading some of the posters' comments well look face it.

Even though Rhys probabaly doesn't like what this kid writes – Elliot is it? he is hardly going to come round with a chainsaw, to cut his head off is he? He probably never even thought of it.

He did say he is small fry, and he probably is still a virgin (been brainwashed – so he actually belives the model doll is better. What has he got to compare it to?)

So I can't blame any of them.

There are alternatives as well as Facebook, Youtube, Instagram, and all those Dating Websites, when almost everything you write gets deleted.

Just go down the local pub when there is a good band on. Even I can pull there, but I am better looking than both Rhys and Elliot

I Like Girls.

I am a man. It's Normal

Just keep fit dancing and smiling, and you will be O.K.

Tony

paul ,

The prime importance of these endless hoaxes, smears, lies, fabrications and official approved conspiracy theories, lies not so much in the events themselves as what it says about the nature of the people who rule over us and their courtiers and handmaidens in the MSM.

It would take a whole forest of trees merely to catalogue all their lies over the years, whether it's the Iraq Incubator Babies, the black Viagra fuelled rape gangs in Libya, the Syrian Gas Hoaxes, 9/11, Iraq's WMD, Iran's non existent nuclear weapons, Skripal, Russiagate, Ukrainegate, or the communist spy/ terrorist/ anti semitic smear campaign against Corbyn. And that is only the tip of a very large iceberg. You could go back further to Gladio, Operation Northwoods, Tonkin Gulf, the "Holocaust", Zinoviev Letter, Bayonetted Belgian Babies, Raped Belgian Nuns, Human Bodies Made Into Soap. The list is endless.

We have been lied to consistently for years, decades, and generations. And these lies have been peddled endlessly in the MSM, no matter how ludicrous and transparently false they are. In the absence of direct personal knowledge or very convincing evidence to the contrary, you just have to assume that everything we have ever been told, are being told, and will be told, and most of the accepted historical record, are simply false. Nothing, nothing at all, can ever be taken at face value.

And those who rule over us and who are responsible for these lies are psychopathic subhuman filth devoid of any moral values or any redeeming features whatsoever. They are a thousand times worse than the worst mass murderers or child killers who have ever been through our courts. The Moors Murderers, the Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers, were seriously damaged individuals who killed a handful of victims. And they did their own dirty work. The Blairs, the Campbells, the Straws, the Bushes, the Cheneys, the Rumsfelds, the Allbrights, the Macrons, the Camerons, the Netanyahus, the Trumps, have the blood of millions on their hands. They and their wire pullers are responsible for the death, starvation and misery of tens and hundreds of millions.

So when Blair, or Johnson, or Trump or whoever is interviewed on television, you have to remember that individual is a thousand times worse than the Moors Murderers, and we would actually be that much better off if Brady or Hindley were ruling over us. They deserve no respect or deference or legitimacy. They plot the murders of millions and the starvation of tens of millions – and laugh and giggle as they do so. They should be simply recognised for what they awe – psychopathic subhuman filth.

austrian peter ,

I do agree with you Paul and of course all you say is true. One of the main problems is that these people have the power to build artificial constructs sufficient for the masses to believe and perpetuated through their bought and paid for MSM whose journalists are mere foot soldiers and wish only to get their pay checks. They have no reason to question the lies and distortions pedaled to them by TPTB – they merely repeat the false narrative:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" – Upton Sinclair

And we, the great 99%, have little power to change things except within our local network. We can shout all we like on social media but it changes nothing until the great crisis reoccurs and perhaps the masses will rise and demand a just and equitable system. Until that day perhaps this little video will provide an understanding:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/rStL7niR7gs?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Roberto ,

The business of the MSM throughout the ages has been to traumatise or at least just generally worry the public with headlines focused on fear, envy, anger, revenge, and hate. Include all five in your story and you're well on the way to a Pulitzer Prize, bestowed on the profession by one of the great muckrakers of all time. It's not incidental that there have been a disturbing number of winners that have turned out to be dissembling frauds. Add to this the fact that 'journalism' training apparently does not teach entrants to distinguish the difference between opinion and news, and the die is cast: propaganda as news.

Dungroanin ,

Here is what BellEndScat supporting Rusbridger is moaning about.

"For some years now – largely unreported – two chancery court judges have been dealing with literally hundreds of cases of phone hacking against MGN Ltd and News Group, the owners, respectively, of the Daily Mirror and the Sun (as well as the defunct News of the World).
The two publishers are, between them, forking out eye-watering sums to avoid any cases going to trial in open court. Because the newspaper industry lobbied so forcefully to scrap the second part of the Leveson inquiry, which had been due to shine a light on such matters, we can only surmise what is going on.

But there are clues. Mirror Group (now Reach) had by July 2018 set aside more than £70m to settle phone-hacking claims without risking any of them getting to court. The BBC reported last year that the Murdoch titles had paid out an astonishing £400m in damages and calculated that the total bill for the two companies could eventually reach £1bn."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/19/there-is-a-reason-why-royals-demonised-but-wont-read-all-about-it-prince-harry-meghan-markle

On the overall perfidious msm he quips:

"Because the newspaper industry lobbied so forcefully to scrap the second part of the Leveson inquiry, which had been due to shine a light on such matters, we can only surmise what is going on."

-- --

Completely ignoring that the Integrity Iniative infested Guardian ITSELF objected to the recommendation of Levesons thoroughly public Inquiry and opposition to a independent press regulator!

It would have been a building block and certainly stopped most of the continued press misbehaviour over the last 5 years.

Neither Fish nor Fowl Mr Rusbridger. More sinner that saint, more like.

Hugh O'Neill ,

Going to the heart of what Bellingcat, MI6 and CIA is Pompeo's: "We lie, we cheat, we steal." These evil filth are devoid of any moral code and have no respect whatsoever for the laws of God or Man. At which point, consider Moses' (how apt) Ten Commandments. There among them is: "Thou shalt not bear false witness". Think what you will of these Ten, but as a moral code, they were quite useful.

Richard Le Sarc ,

Would that all these scum could share the fate of their progenitor, Streicher-without the ' necktie party'. Life at hard labour would do the lot of them much good.

Brianeg ,

I looked at the Veterans Today link and it all sounds very plausible'

However in today's world nothing makes sense especially when the questions arise.

Is it possible to change the signal of an aircrafts transponder remotely. Can the target acquisition radar on the missile be spoofed remotely. Just why did the flight control officer sanction the take off of this plane in the middle of a war unless they were party to the whole thing.. Just what were the six Israeli F-35 jets doing flying close to the Iranian border?

Okay there is a lot of smoke but just where is the fire.

Just as interesting is that none of the twelve Iranian missiles was intercepted and there are rumours that the Iranians were able to take out of action American air defences.

I am sure that like with Douma when the majority of NATO missiles were intercepted by missiles that were decades old, you wonder what might happen when most of the middle east is covered by the S-300 and later versions.

This is a story that has got a long way to run and we might never hear the ending.

Dungroanin ,

Facts are inconvenient.
Many planes took off.
This one was delayed by the pilot 'to remove overloading'.
Reports of Cruise missiles heading in.

Mucho ,

For the best info on this, go to Brendon O' Connell's channel and watch 1 to 3 and number 22. You will get answers there.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYaLxbD7Rix3p1rdGY3IMjg?pbjreload=10

Also go to the Antedote and listen to Greg and Jeremy's latest offering.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMf1qGR8km1c8vg_dtpzzVQ

Dungroanin ,

It sounds a bit MAGA.

The thing about 'chips' is they could easily be identified by putting them in a black box and watching what they do using a chip which only does that!

The whole bs about it's THEM not US crap falls away. Just need some open source simple 'custodian' chip manufacturer to make that available. If it can be made a 'gate keeper' than we are all safe.

Mucho ,

"It sounds a bit MAGA. "
After this, I will never, ever read any of your comments ever again. Get lost!

Mucho ,

You talk so much crap. Please, keep it to yourself

Dungroanin ,

I ain't saying that is your opinion am I?

The bit I watched was him being gung-ho about getting back 'control of microprocessors' !!!

There is a big difference between designing chips and 'manufacturing' facilities'.

Have you never wondered why most actual building of small electrical component equipment takes place in Asia?

I don't care wherher you read my comments- i am free to post what I want on whatevet article and whoevers comment. And stick to facts.

Mucho ,

"The bit I watched ".
Honestly, I am so tired of people who comment on things they know nothing about. Everything you say is wrong, because you are speaking from a position of total ignorance, because you haven't watched the films.
Watch 1 to 3. Watch 22 and 23 ALL THE WAY THROUGH, not skimming. Then comment. Every inaccurate comment you make is covered in detail. Honestly it's no wonder we're so fucked.

From 2005 after one google search, time spent on this, 10 seconds:
"While Yona was developed in partnership with one of Intel's California centers, the 65nm microprocessor product is the first to be developed in its entirety, both the architecture and strategy, by Intel engineers at its Israel plants in Haifa and Yakum. "
https://www.israel21c.org/intels-new-chip-design-developed-in-israel/

You know zilch, you understand nothing, you make assumptions, you don't watch or read the material, and then in your total ignorance, you spew your feeble thoughts on this forum. Moron

Mucho ,

You define the phrase "ignorant Brit"

Dungroanin ,

Mucho since you FAILED instantly in your promise to ignore me – i will respond to your toy throwing out of the parambulator.

First just telling people to WATCH something without explaining what the salient point to be learnt – is not the way to influence or educate.

I prefer reading an argument- I definitely do not spend hours watching TV or listening to propaganda by msm / indy or 'shock jocks' – that last was the personality I saw and didn't feel the need to hear anymore as I don't when Nigel Farage and his ilk do on the radio here.

If you want to inform or prove something to me or anyone else kindly post a link to a written piece.

Second, chips are designed eveywhere there is such competence. Chip manufacturing mainly improved theough research in top universities.
The UK was a lead chip designer too.

None of that means the Israelis haven't monopolosed tech and own many patents. The fact is the Israelis ARE part of the 5+1 eyed world Empire – they are the plus one. Snowdens whistleblowing makes absolutely clear that the +1 gets a higher clearance than the +4.

That's as nice as I am prepared to be, so finally, that last paragraph is what is known as PROJECTION. Look it up and learn that it comes from your fav bogeymen brainfuckers.

That is some serious self-hate you have going on – work on it.

Take it easy ok?

Mucho ,

Number 23 is totally relevant too, going deep into chips, backdooring and kill switch usage

Koba ,

So the mocking of maga is what set you off? Fuck maga and it's idiot supporters great nations don't slaughter civilians for capital

bevin ,

Has this link been cited?
https://thewallwillfall.org/2020/01/19/important-douma-opcw-update-from-prof-piers-robinson/

norman wisdom ,

chris morris is very funny has a fine body of twisted comedick works
for all his charm his role is too destroy society degrade
he is khazar after all

sacha baron co hen the names speaks for itself an empty cruel tool
never trust a coen cohen khan or cowen or co they cookoo

eliot mcfuck higgins is not oirish
he is not certainly related to snooker loopy or is it darts i cannot remember hero alex higgins.

eliot"s dad is rita katz from site intel group amaq news
his mom barbera lerner spector
or is it vice versa
versa vice
whatever
shirley you

get my the friends of the oirish israel drift
so to speaks
or sum such

Mucho ,

Brilliant, insightful, logical hypothesis of the recent plane downing over Iran by Jeremy Rothe Kushel. Ignore the video, this is about the written article.

The Prime Suspect in Ukrainian PS752 Shootdown: Israel's Unit 8200
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/10/ps752/

Mucho ,

For further info about Israeli tech domination, what it is, where it comes from and the implications of this, go to Brendon O Connell's YT channel. Number 22 in his list is very important.

Mucho ,

Jeremy Rothe-Kushel is a very important member of the truth community, in no small part due to the fact that he is an Ashkenazi Jew. My personal belief is that in the end, the Jewish community will play a pivotal role in weeding out the evil that rules over us. I wish we didn't have these labels, that we could have true freedom to play our chosen role in our God created realm, but at this stage in the game, we're stuck with our divide and rule labels and systems of control.
Jeremy's style is to the point, he has great depth of knowledge, an encyclopedic knowledge of his field and is a highly astute commentator. He presents a lot of complex information in fairly easy to digest chunks with his co-host, Greg McCarron, on their show "The Antedote" on YT, as well as doing a lot of guerilla style activism in US politics. Highly recommended.

norman wisdom ,

i met elliot many years ago
the chap on the 8 year old lap top above
we called him fat face down the synagogue ohh how we laughed
he laughed as well everytime someone said it
such fun
are rabbi one day organised a trip and lecture tour of chatham house the belly of the beast.
we learnt all about how tough regime change was and how difficult it is to do on a bbc size budget.

what we learnt was that having are people everywhere really helped
scripted up to speed influencer roles in media in public on track on page working cog like.
a kind of khazar collective non semites only for security reasons of course.
we could work from a very low pound dollar and shekels base and still be very effective.

never under estimate the benjamins or elliots it is folks like this that are the real hero of the oded yinon
yes sir
already my life
fat face eliot boy done good

and like all khazar he hates the sephardim jewisher and the unclean arab which is shirley a bonus is it not

George Mc ,

First off, if folks haven't a clue who Harold Shipman is, you're not going to get far with Titus Oats. At the most they might think it's a character from Gormenghast.

Second, I initially misread the article and thought that the figure from the 17th century actually WAS Higgins of Bellingcat. And if that seems an absurd assumption to make, even temporarily, it doesn't seem much more absurd than some of the stuff he says e.g.

I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo.

The point has been raised that there are psyops perpetrated with a malicious sense of humour as if to say, "These suckers will swallow anything". Higgins with his "education" from Arnold and Rambo may be an example of one of those jokes.

Third, and to end on an optimistic note, I like the 17th century sentencing and recommend we bring it back:

and he was whipped and placed in the pillory.

Dungroanin ,

Admin – a suggestion on keeping recent articles available from the top of the page.

Problem: As you add new aricles at top left the ones on the very right drop away! Almost as if being binned into a memory hole.

Solution: allow a scroll at the right hand edge so that these older links are easily available to readers. Only a minor coding change without any change to your front page.

Tallis Marsh ,

I concur! I'm sure many of us will appreciate a scroll on the right hand edge so we can access the older articles. Thanks in advance, OffG!

Oliver ,

HM Armed Forces operations in Syria follow the doctrine of Major General Sir Frank Kitson who learnt his stuff in Kenya in the 1950s. Murder, torture, rape the staples of the British military's modern terrorist ability. NATO doctrine too.

Joe ,

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0oLfNr4JjeI?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

BigB ,

This is an important article: one of the few that dares to express that Douma et al are not mere false flags they a darkly psychotic form of 'snuff propaganda porn' (including the recycling and rearanging of 'props' that were until recently animate human souls with a lifetime of possibility abnegated for ideology). The Working Group on Syria is part of a small counter-narrative subset – along with Sister Agnes Mariam, Vanessa Beeley, RT (on occasion), UK Column, The Indicter, Prof. Marcello Ferrada de Noli – who are willing to state plainly that this is child murder. Now I wholeheartedly commend Kevin that we should name and shame the culprits and their supporters.

"No, I think it is time for plainer, no-holds-barred language describing these people for the true evil they are – until the truth and label sticks."

I had a similar epiphany in early 2016. The barbaric of murder of starved and thirsty children at Rashidin – Syrian innocence lured by much needed sweets and drinks only to be blown apart in front of their mothers. Anyone who supports the White Helmets terrorist construct and their NATO-proxy child-murderers needs to be exposed. But what if that trail of exposure leads back to the leader of the Labour party: who had just personally endorsed the charity funding of the White Helmets? And continued to support the Jo Cox Foundation of Syrian humanitarian bombers and R2P interventionists? Which itself is a front for the dark money web of 'philanthrocapitalism' that is the shadow support network for regime change crimes against humanity. This is when righteous indignation meets the dark wall of silence around the social construction of reality. Especially if you put Jeremy Corbyn in the frame.

What this means is the ability to frame dark actors for the true evil they are has to be a two-way flow. Meaning is created across networks, not just by naming but by naming and agreeing across narrative communities. Again, this is not abstruse: it is social reality. Social reality is not reality: it is a consensual constructivism. Significant numbers of others have to be in a position of consensual agreement in order to challenge the dominant narrative(s). So I echo the sentiment that many can see that the dominant narrative – especially concerning Syria – is deeply flawed. But they are as yet unwilling to admit that the depth of the flaw is in fact a tear in social reality that cannot be easily healed.

This is the aspect of social reality called 'universe maintenance'. Doxa is the reality constructing belief set – the episteme of interacting beliefs. The narrative has two main aspects: ortho-doxa and hetero-doxa – the orthodox maintaining and heterodox subverting discourses. In order to truly subvert the hegemonic orthodoxy – there has to be a social moment of criticality when the heterodox is no longer deniable. To reach that point: the intrajecting true has to be believable to the hegemonic orthodoxy. Now we have a third mode: para-doxa when the true 'state of affairs' is not believable – it is easily rejected as paradoxical to the reigning consensus covenant of the true. This is universe maintaining: whereby the the totality of the dominant discourse actually subsumes or repels any paradox as a half-truth or ameliorated, disarmed less-than-true ('conspiracy theory'). This is known as 'recuperation'. Anything that meets the dominant discourse has to be explained in the terms of the dominant discourse accommodative and recommending itself to the dominant discourse. Which then becomes a part of the dominant universe of discourse.

A moment of the true is like a barb to a bubble. It has to be contained and wrapped in narrative that describes and explains it into a consumable form. The full realisation of the propagandic child murder in Syria – tacitly supported by the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn in particular – would destroy the symbolic universe of social reality. Of which it is my personal experience no one really wants to do. The correlations, direct and indirect links, and universally maintained orthodoxy of narrative discourse point to an accomodation. An explanation or multivariate set of explanations that problem shift and ascribe blame to imaginary actors. To deflect or defend the personal self. Because the personal self is independently situated outside the social sphere. Or is it?

Seeing the real event as it happens requires the perspicacity of social inclusion. We all create social reality together: with our without layers of dualising exclusion that protects us from the way the world really is. Who would vote to legitimise the supporters of NATO and the child-murderers of Syria? 31 million legitimising independent social actors just did. Do you suppose they did so in full knowledge that it is child-murder they were supporting? Or did they create universe maintaining accommodations to the truth? That is how powerful the screening discourses and legitimising orthodoxic narrative mythology is. It is not that it cannot be subverted: its just that calling out the true evil has to be heard in unison by large or social small assemblages willing to totally change everything – including themselves. In order to transition to a different social reality one that accommodates the truth. One which will look nothing like the social reality we choose to maintain as is.

Francis Lee ,

My first attempt didn't get through. Herewith second.

It seems to me that the internal affairs of the Russian Federation, although they may have some impact on external geopolitical issues, are a matter for them. At the present time the relevant question regarding the RF is as follows: Question 1. Is Russia a revionist state intent on an expansionist foreign policy? Answer NO. But it is not going to tolerate NATO expansion into its own strategic zones, namely, Ukraine, Georgia and the North Caucusas. Question 2. Is the Anglo-Zionist empire in open of pursuit of a world empire intent on destroying any sovereign state – including first and foremost Russia – which stands in its way? Answer YES. This really is so blatant that anyone who is ethnically challenged should seek psychiatric help. In Polls conducted around the world the US is always cited as the most dangerous enemy of world peace, including in the US itself. Thus a small influential (unfortunately deranged) cabal based in the west has insinuated its way into the institutions of power and poses a real and present danger to world peace.

This being the case it is imperative to push all and any 'normal' western governments and shape public opinion and discourse (except the nut-jobs like Poland and the Baltics) into diplomacy. Wind down NATO just as the Warsaw Pact was wound down. that will do for starters. Of course the PTB in all the western institutions – the media (whores) the deep state, the Atlantic Council, the Council on Foreign Relations, Chatham House the Arms merchants, the security services GCHQ, the CIA, Mossad and the rest will oppose this with all the power at their command. This is the present primary site of struggle, mainly propagandistic, cultural and economic, but with overtones of kinetic warfare.

Similar diplomatic initiatives must be directed at China. Yes, I know all about China's social credit policy, I don't particularly like the idea of 24 hour system of surveillance, and I wouldn't want to live there, but is already a virtual fait accompli in the west. Again it bears repeating that sovereign states should be left to their own devices. After all 'States have neither permanent friends of allies, only permanent interests. (Lord Palmerston, 19 century British Statesman). No more 'humanitarian interventions' thank you very much. How about Mind our own Business non-interventions.

I make no apologies for being a foreign policy realist – if that hasn't become apparent by this stage!

BigB ,

Francis:

The Russian Federation is involved is strategic partnership with China in consolidating the Eurasian 'supercontinent' into the world island. One which is slowly being drawn together into a massive market covering 70% of the world's population, 75% of energy resources, and 70% of GDP. I'd call that expansionist, wouldn't you?

Market mechanisms and methodology are exponentially expansionist, extractivist, and extrapolative. Market propaganda is free and equal exchange coupled with mutual development through comparative advantage. Everyone benefits, right?

No: markets operate as vast surplus value extractors that only operate unequally to deliver maximum competitive advantage to the suprasovereign core. Surplus value valorises surplus capital which cannot be contained in a single domestic market: so it seeks to exploit underdeveloped foreign markets setting up dependencies and peripheries in the satellite states. Which keeps them maldeveloped. In short: Russia and China's wealth is not just their own.

Russia and China are globalisation now. Globalist exponential expansionism, extractivism, and extrapolation is the repression of humanism and destruction of the biosphere. It can't stop growing in the cancer stage of hyper-capitalism. We are currently consuming every resource at a material throughput increase of 3% per annum year on year. That's a 23 year exponential doubling of material resources. And a 46 year doubling of the doubling. How long before globalisation uses everything? How far into the race to the bottom will the market collapse?

It would be really nice to return to a Westphalian System of non-expansionist, non-extractivist sovereign nation states. It is just not even plausible under market mechanisms of extraction. There can be no material decoupling and development remains contingent on an impossible infinity: because development remains parallel and assymetrically maintained. And all major resources are depleting exponentially too. Including the nominative renewable and sustainable ones.

Degrowth; self-sufficiency; localised 'anti-fragility', steady-state; asymmetric development of the marginalised and the peripheralised; regenerative agroecological agriculture; human development not abstract market development; are just some of the pre-requisites of a return to sovereign states. Russia 'sovereigntist' globalisation is the expansionist opposite to that. The RF is part of the biggest market in the world that hoovers up as much surplus value as it can before sending a large tranche of it to London. As much as $25bn a year in capital flight into the offshore nexus of secrecy jurisdictions. It's a globalist expansionist market mechanism that hoovers all vitality out of the life-ground. That: I call expansionist and imperialist of which Russia and China are now the major part.

Francis Lee ,

"The Russian Federation is involved is strategic partnership with China in consolidating the Eurasian 'supercontinent' into the world island. One which is slowly being drawn together into a massive market covering 70% of the world's population, 75% of energy resources, and 70% of GDP. I'd call that expansionist, wouldn't you?"

No, I wouldn't actually. Building roads, rail connections and other trade routes doesn't strike me as imperial expansion. No-one is being forced to join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) or into reconfiguring their internal political and economic structures, as the US does in Latin America or as the British did in India and Southern Africa. (East India Company and the British British South Africa Chartered Company). The SCO is a voluntary arrangement. Uzbekistan for example has decided not to join the central Asian Eurasian Economic Union – well that's its prerogative. No-one is going to send any gun-boats to force them. (I am aware that Uzbekistan is a landlocked country, but I was talking figuratively.)

The EEU's genesis has along with the SCO and BRI has been forced upon the China/Russia axis as part of an emerging counter-hegemonic alliance against the US's imperial aggrandisement with its kowtowing vassals in tow. Russia has no claims on any of its neighbours since it is already endowed with ample land and mineral deposits. China is a key part of this essentially geopolitical bloc quite simply because the US imperial hegemon is determined to stop China's development by all means necessary including the dragooning of contiguous military bases in US proxy states around China's maritime borders.

A distinction should be made between rampant imperialism of the Anglo-zi0nist empire, and the response of an increasingly bloc of states who find both their sovereignty and even their existence threatened by the imperial juggernaut. What exactly did you expect them to do given the hostility and destructive intent of the Empire? Defence against imperialism is not imperialism. The defence of autonomy and sovereignty of international society and the creation of an anti-hegemonic have the potential to finally create a transformative new world order (and goodness knows we need one) announced at the end of the Cold War in 1991. This ambition finds support not only in Russia and China but in other countries ready to align with them, but also in many western countries. I obviously need to put the question again. Who is and who is not the greatest threat to world peace? Surely to pose the question is to answer it.

Dungroanin ,

Agree Francis.
There is a move to suggest that the Old Empire retains a 'maritime' world and the SCO confines itself to the Eurasian land mass.
Dream on.
The Empire is DEAD. Long live the new Empire!

BigB ,

Who is the greatest threat to world peace and to the world itself? We are. The global carbon consumption/pollution bourgeoisie. It is the global expansionist mindset that is increasing its demands for growth – as the only solution to social problems, maldevelopment, and maldistribution caused by excessive growth. Supply has to be met by exponentially expanding markets. Whether this is voluntaristic or coerced makes very little difference to the market cancer subsuming the globe. Benign or aggressive forms of cancer are still cancer. And the net effect is the same.

Russia and China – the 'East' – uphold exactly the same corporate model of global governance that the 'West' does. Which has been made clear in every joint communique – especially BRICS communiques. I have made the case – following Professor Patrick Bond – that BRICS in particular (a literal Goldman Sachs globalist marketing ploy) – are sub-imperial, not anti-imperial. All their major institutions are dollar denominated for loans; BRI finance is in dollars; BRICS re-capitalised the IMF; Contingency Reserve Arrangements come with an IMF neoliberalising structural adjustment policy; etc. It is the same model East and West. One is merely the pseudo-benign extension of the other. The alternative to neoliberal globalisation is neoliberal globalisation. This became radiantly clear at SPIEF 2019: TINA there is no alternative.

The perceived alternative is the reproduction of neoliberalism – which has long been think-tanked and obvious – and its transformation from 'globalisation 3.0' to 'globalisation 4.0' trade in goods and services, with the emphasis on a transition to high-speed interconnectivity and decoupled service economies. Something like the Trans-Eurasian Information Super Highway (TASIM)? With a sovereigntist and social inclusivity compact. So the neoliberal leopard can change its spots?

No. Whilst your argument is sound and well constructed: it is reliant on the early 20th century Leninist definition of 'imperialism' as a purely militarist phenomena. Imperialism mutated since then – from military to financial (which are not necessarily exclusive sets) – and is set to metastasise again into 'green imperialism' of man over man (and it is an andrarchic principle) and man (culture) over nature. Here your argument falls down to an ecological and bio-materialist critique. Cancer is extractivist and expansionist wherever it grows.

Russia is the fourth largest primary energy consumer on the planet. Disregarding hydro – which is not truly ecological – it has a 1% renewable penetration. It is a hydrocarbon behemoth set to grow the only way it knows how – consuming more hydrocarbons. They cannot go 'green': no one can. And a with a global ecological footprint of 3.3 planets per capita, per annum, this is not sustainable. Now or ever.

So a distinction needs to be made between the old rampant neoliberal globalisation model (3.0) – the Anglo-Zionist imperialist model – and the emergent neoliberal globalisation model (4.0) of Russia/China's rampant ecological imperialism? And a further distinction needs to be made about what humanity has to do to survive this distinction between aggressive and quasi-benign cancer forms. Because we will be just as dead, just as quick if we cannot even identify the underlying cancer we are all suffering from.

Koba ,

Big B sit down ultra! China and Russia rent empires and have no desire to be! If you're a left winger you're another poor example of one and more than likely a Trotskyist

Richard Le Sarc ,

Love the nickname, Josef.

Louis Proyect ,

This is because if a chemical attack did not take place and Assad was not responsible it seems highly likely that the civilians including children were murdered to facilitate a fabrication.

And were our own intelligence agencies involved in a staged event, considering the refusal to even establish the basic facts in the days following?

-- -

This is the sort of conclusion you must come to if you are into Islamophobic conspiracy theories. The notion that this kind of slaughter took place to "facilitate" a false flag is analogous to the 9/11 conspiracism that was on display here a while back and that manifested itself through the inclusion of NYU 9/11 Truther Mark Crispin Miller on Tim Hayward's Assadist propaganda team.

Sad, really.

Harry Stotle ,

Go on Louis, remind us about the 'terrorist passport' miraculously found at the foot of the collapsed tower with a page coveniently left open displaying a 'Tora Bora' stamp – I kove that bit.

I mean who, apart from half the worlds scientific community is not totally convinced by such compelling evidence, especially when allied to the re-writing of the laws of physics in order to rationlise the ludicrous 2 planes 3 towers conspiracy theory?

Next you'll be telling us it was necessary for the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq for reasons few American'srecall beyond the neocon fantasy contructed on 11th Septemember, 2001.

Dave Hansell ,

It's clear to a blind man on a galloping horse from this comment of yours Mr Proyect that concepts such as objective evidence, logical and rational deduction, the scientific method etc are beyond your ken.

Faced with the facts of a collapsing narrative of obvious bullshit and lies you have bought into, which you are incapable of facing up to, it is unsurprising that you are reduced to such puerile school playground level deflections.

So come on, try getting out of the gutter and upping your game. Because this fare is nothing short of sad and pathetic.

We know from the evidence of those who actually know their arse from their elbow on these matters that the claims of an attack using chemical weapons on this site are unsustainable.

Which leaves the issue of the bodies at the site. Given they did not lose their lives as a result of the unscientific bullshit explanation you desperately and clearly want to be the case the question is how did those civilians lose their lives? How did their corpses find their way to that location?

Did Assad and his "regime" murder them and move the bodies to that site (over which they had no control) in order to create a false flag event to get themselves falsely accused of an NBC attack Louis? Because that's the only reasonable and rational deduction one can imply from your argument and approach.

It is certainly more reasoned, rational and in keeping with the scientific method (you might want to try it sometime) to surmise that the bodies on site, having not been the result of the claimed and unsustainable narrative you have naively committed to, either died on site from some other cause or were brought to the site for the purpose of creating your fantasy narrative.

In the latter case it is further a matter of rational and reasoned deduction that such an occurrence could only be carried it in circumstances in which whoever carried it out had actual, effective and physical control of a geographical location and area situated within a wider conflict zone.

Again, it remains a piece of factual reality that this location was not under the control of the Assad 'regime.' Not least because otherwise there would be no logical or rational military reason for the de facto Syrian Government and it's armed forces to waste resources attacking it.

Unless of course he buys I to the conspiracy theory and hat they somehow organised a false flag implicating themselves?

I'm sure everyone else here in the reality based community is waiting with bated breath for you to 'explain' how they did this Louis.

I know I am. I could do with a good laugh.

George Mc ,

This is the sort of conclusion you must come to if you are into Islamophobic conspiracy theories.

Umm – the assumption that Muslims DIDN'T do it is "Islamophobic"? Even on your own terms you're not making much sense these days, Louis.

lundiel ,

There was little doubt that British special forces were captured in Eastern Ghouta when the SAA prevented an all out attack on Damascus. European precursors and British munitions were uncovered along with factories within the tunnel complex, itself a product of western engineering and slave labour. This was no propaganda, evidence was collected, statements were taken and everything was documented. Douma was a direct follow-on from that failure and yet, you refuse the evidence piling up, but accept testimony of journalists based in Jordan and Turkey? The "conspiracy" is wholly yours Louis and you are guilty of malicious intent, false representation and pretending to be a "Marxist" when you are a Zionist neocon.

lundiel ,

Hi I'm Louis an unrepentant Marxist and I willfully refuse to use block-quotes.

Richard Le Sarc ,

More proyectile vomitus in defence of child-murdering salafist vermin. How low can this creature descend?

Louis Proyect ,

Richard, such abusive language only indicates your inability to discuss the matter at hand. In general, a detached sarcasm works much better in polemics. You need to read Lenin to see how it is done. I should add that I am referring to V.I. Lenin, not John Lenin who wrote "Crippled Inside".

Richard Le Sarc ,

You defended the salafist butchers with lies, proyectile-do you not even comprehend your own sewage? Or did someone else write it and you just appended your paw-print?

Dave Hansell ,

Apologies here. There is an open goal and the ball needs to be put in the back of the net:

Seems that Louis here is well ahead of the curve in terms of Fukuyama's well known observation about the end of history.

For Louise history, in terms of the progress and development of human knowledge, stopped around a century ago with whatever Lenin wrote.

But that's what happens to those who only read one book.

Sad really.

Dungroanin ,

You come across more as Yaxley – Lenin mr Tommy Proyect – but he is a MI5 stooge unlike you cough cough.

Koba ,

Lenin hates Trotsky! Trotsky was a power mad maniac who wanted a permanent war state to somehow spread his specific brand of "ahem" socialism, which won't win you friends! "Hi yeah sorry we killed your family in a war we started to save you but yippee Trotsky is now in charge so stop complaining"! You're just a bunch of liars the trots

Maggie ,

learn to use the internet which has the information you need to learn the truth:

Acting out a chemical attack?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/o63VnLJpwuc?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Jimmy Dore hits the nail every time!!

https://www.youtube.com/embed/FLRQSfSKoJo?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Didn't you just love George Carlin, identifies just what the problem is with dicks like Proyect.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KLODGhEyLvk?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Maggie ,

Here's another Jimmy Dore Vid from 2017
Watch and learn

https://www.youtube.com/embed/MnSAB4qeDug?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent

Koba ,

Maggie don't take jimmy bore as some truth teller he's a bland progressive with revolutionary slogans like proyect! He also has a habit of equating Stalin with Hitler in that god awful nasal accent of his

Richard Le Sarc ,

Thems White Helmets is always so neat and tidy. Their mammies must have insisted that they always look their best.

paul ,

The British taxpayer funded head choppers and throat slitters in Syria routinely committed massacres and filmed their victims. The resulting footage was passed off by tame media hacks as "evidence" of regime atrocities.

Koba ,

Death to the Trotskyists
Fuck proyect your name calling says it all!
Islamophobes indeed?! What an idiot

Harry Stotle ,

The alternative media, and a smattering of truth tellers are locked in an asymmetrical information-war with the establishment – with an all too obvious 'David & Goliath' sort of dynamic underlying it.

The question asked at the heart of this article is how to break the vice like grip information managers hold over various geopolitical narratives, referencing events in Douma in particular.

Alnost reflexively 9/11 comes to mind – a fairly unambiguous example of mass murder for which the official account does not withstand even the most cursory form of scrutiny.
Professionals even went so far as to purger themselves while the investigating committee admitted they were 'set up to fail' (to quote its chairman).

Yet the public, instead of shredding Bush, limb from limb (for the lies that were told) rolled onto their back while the neoncons tickled their collective belly as you might do with a particulalrly adorable puppy,
So if we can't even get to the bottom of events in the middle of New York what realistic chance of doing so in a hostile war zone like Douma?

On balance racism, together with other forms of collective loathing is the most likely reason why this unsatisfactory state of affairs is unlikely to change.

A collective 'them and us' mindset makes it far easier for information managers to manipulate a visceral hatred and fear of 'the other'.
Today it is Qasem Soleimani westerners are taugyt to despise, yesterday it was Bashar al-Assad, before that Vladimir Putin, Saddam Hussein, Muammar al-Gaddafi, Nicolás Maduro . the list just goes on and on.
Information managers simply wind the public up so that collective anger can be directed toward governments or individuals they are trying to bring down – recent history tells us that the public are largely oblivious to this process, so thus never learn from their mistakes.

Perhaps one thing western leaders, and the US in particular can always rely on, is the ease with which the public can be persuaded to believe that certain bogeymen pose a grave threat to 'our way of life' while failing to notice that it is in fact our own leaders who are carrying out the worst atrocities.

harry law ,

Harry Stotle, .."Perhaps one thing western leaders, and the US in particular can always rely on, is the ease with which the public can be persuaded to believe that certain bogeymen pose a grave threat to 'our way of life'. That's true Hermann Goring had it about right with this quote
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

[Jan 21, 2020] Propaganda and Lies Iran and Ukrainian Flight PS752 - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Jan 21, 2020 | www.globalresearch.ca

Propaganda and Lies: Iran and Ukrainian Flight PS752 Exploited to further fan the flames of unrest in Iran. By Kurt Nimmo Global Research, January 21, 2020 Region: Middle East & North Africa Theme: Intelligence , Media Disinformation , US NATO War Agenda In-depth Report: IRAN: THE NEXT WAR?

Here is the cardinal rule about government -- everything it says through its spokespersons, hired guns, public relations adepts, and the mockingbird corporate media should be considered a self-serving lie, or at best a distortion hammered into shape to fit a predefined agenda.

For instance, we should question who is ultimately responsible for the shootdown of the Ukrainian airliner in Tehran following the assassination of Qassem Soleimani.

Former CIA military intelligence officer Philip Giraldi believes there is a possibility Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 was a false flag designed to put further pressure on the government of Iran and feed the USAID "opposition" to the mullahs.

Giraldi writes "there just might be considerably more to the story involving cyberwarfare carried out by the U.S. and possibly Israeli governments."

False Flag? Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran Shootdown https://t.co/DHpDjGrIGf

-- zerohedge (@zerohedge) January 19, 2020

What seems to have been a case of bad judgements and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

Giraldi explains the

SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be hacked or "spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take control. The United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also means fooling the operator. The Guardian has also reported independently how the United States military has long been developing systems that can from a distance alter the electronics and targeting of Iran's available missiles.

Naturally, this possibility is not even mentioned by the corporate war propaganda media, with the notable exception of The Guardian. Instead, we are pelted with tweets and news articles purporting to show just how angry the Iranian people supposedly are over the shootdown, accidental or otherwise.

Kimia Alizadeh, the only Iranian woman to win an Olympic medal, announced that she had defected. She is part of growing public outrage in Iran after the military admitted to shooting down a Ukraine International Airlines jet. https://t.co/NkwtCTP0yw

-- New York Times World (@nytimesworld) January 13, 2020

Protests erupt in Iran after country admits to downing Ukraine plane https://t.co/Nsg0v34rGQ pic.twitter.com/MJk17XVJV9

-- The Hill (@thehill) January 12, 2020

Iran reporters quit state TV amid protests over Ukraine flight shootdown https://t.co/0ZOQWT2K8l

-- Newsweek (@Newsweek) January 13, 2020

The establishment media, long-serving as war propagandists, would have you believe the people of Iran care more about the shootdown of an passenger airliner than the four-decade long economic war against them waged by the USG, Israel, and Saudia Arabia -- a war that has the possibility of breaking out into a conflict that will kill far more than the 176 who died when two missiles hit flight PS752.

This reminds me of a murderous trick pulled by the Israelis. In September 2018, Syrian anti-aircraft defenses shot down a Russian military plane near the Hmeimim airbase where the Russians stage military operations against USG supported terrorists in Syria (and invited, along with Iran and Hezbollah, to do so by Syria, unlike the illegal American occupation and the apparently endless Israeli air raids).

"A Russian military spokesman said Israeli F-16 pilots were using the Russian plane as a shield while carrying out missile strikes against targets in Syria's Latakia province and put it in the line of fire from Syrian anti-aircraft batteries," The Guardian reported at the time.

Russia's defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, told a senior Israeli official that Israel bore "full responsibility" for the incident and the death of the Russian crew, a military spokesman said later on Tuesday. Israel's ambassador in Moscow was summoned to the Russian foreign ministry over the incident.

Putin let it go, however, realizing that pushing the issue too far would worsen the conflict and possibly result in further Russian casualities.

Such caution, however, cannot be attributed to the USG and certainly not Israel. Bibi Netanyahu, the Israeli PM, said Bashar al-Assad and the Syrians were solely responsible for the attack.

No such caution or diplomacy can be expected from the USG and its current loudmouth know-nothing president, Donald Trump. The death of nearly two hundred people is simply an excuse to whip up hysteria and push forward the covert war against Iran.

First and foremost, when you read the "news" dispensed by the war propaganda media, you should assume, unless otherwise proven and verified independently, that what they say about Iran and the Middle East is nothing less than a carelessly and hastily assembled pack of lies, distortion, and omissions, all designed to destroy Iran and kill thousands, possibly millions of innocent men, women, and children.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Kurt Nimmo writes on his blog, Another Day in the Empire, where this article was originally published. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research.

[Jan 21, 2020] Given that the US military has known capabilities to alter or mask IFF transponder signals, as does the Israeli regime, it is entirely possible that this tragedy, which led some protesters to blame the Iranian government, may have been deliberately caused by the US in collusion with its Zionist ally in hopes of triggering their goal of regime change

Jan 21, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Smith , Jan 21 2020 18:53 utc | 36

An update for Flight 752 storey from Press TV:

"The accidental and most regrettable downing of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS-752, may involve more than human error under incredibly tense conditions. With the plane's IFF transponder switched off, the Tor missile defense system, which had reverted to manual operation because of an unknown source jamming communications, would have automatically identified the plane as "hostile". The Iranian missile operator, unable to contact higher-ups for verification due to the disrupted communications and given the high level of alert, had little basis to question the hostile tag applied by Tor to the aircraft.

Given that the US military has known capabilities to alter or mask IFF transponder signals, as does the Israeli regime, it is entirely possible that this tragedy, which led some protesters to blame the Iranian government, may have been deliberately caused by the US in collusion with its Zionist ally in hopes of triggering their goal of regime change.

While no clear evidence of tampering with the transponder has surfaced as yet, it is known that the 737-800, whose registration or "tail number" was UR-PSR, was photographed at the Israeli entity's Ben Gurion Airport five times since March of 2017, the last time being on October 18, 2019 at approximately 2:40 in the afternoon."


ADKC , Jan 21 2020 19:02 utc | 38

According to Reuters, Iran have confirmed that two Tor missiles were fired at PS752.

Iran Seeks Help Reading Downed Planes Black Boxes in New Standoff

PavewayIV , Jan 21 2020 19:39 utc | 45
Smith@36 - PressTV: "..With the plane's IFF transponder switched off,..."

Civilian aircraft have ATC SSR radar transponders, not military IFF transponders.

IFF aircraft interrogations are ALWAYS military only and ALWAYS encrypted. Their only job, if used by the TOR, is to confirm that a radar target was an Iranian military aircraft. PS752 1) couldn't understand encrypted TOR IFF interrogations, 2) wouldn't be able to provide encrypted replies to any TOR IFF interrogations, and 3) would still be considered "not an Iranian military aircraft" by the TOR. PS752's transponder would need a military IFF encoder/decoder which it does not have.

Likewise, TORs and their acquisition radars DO NOT have civilian ATC SSR radar capabilities to identify civilian aircraft. They do NOT interrogate civilian aircraft for ID, altitude, GPS or any other information, nor do they listen for civilian aircraft ADS-B broadcasts which also provide that information.

Surveillance radars higher up in the air defense network may have civilian aircraft ID capability and can assign appropriate IDs to radar targets BEFORE they appear on the TORs radar screen, but that requires a good data link to the network. That encrypted data link (also used for voice communications) was down at the time, and any ID information that may have been assigned by higher layers of the Iranian AD network wouldn't have appeared on the TOR or been considered by its classification and targeting software.

Sorry - I don't know how else to explain this. PressTV doesn't understand the distinction, nor does it understand the TORs capabilities.

Hausmeister , Jan 21 2020 22:26 utc | 58
"Sorry - I don't know how else to explain this. PressTV doesn't understand the distinction, nor does it understand the TORs capabilities."

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jan 21 2020 19:39 utc | 45

But 7 civilian planes had passed that area before. How to explain that?

/div> schroedingersrat 11 hours ago remove Share link Copy Key Architect of 2003 Iraq War Is Now a Key Architect of Trump Iran Policy

https://theintercept.com/2020/01/16/david-wurmser-iran-suleimani-iraq-war/

schroedingersrat 11 hours ago remove Share link Copy Key Architect of 2003 Iraq War Is Now a Key Architect of Trump Iran Policy

https://theintercept.com/2020/01/16/david-wurmser-iran-suleimani-iraq-war/ /div

[Jan 19, 2020] Ukrainian Boeing takedown might well be a false flag attack by the US or its allies intended to frame Iran

Jan 19, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Mike Javaras , Jan 19 2020 5:13 utc | 82

Best explanation I've seen yet of the 752 jet takedown. It was a false flag attack by the US or its allies intended to frame Iran. The Iranian missile hit second after the plane had already been hit by the Stinger and was several seconds from crashing anyway. The rich kids of Tehran were in the housing complex at 6 AM to film the Stinger shootdown by their terrorist buddies. They have properly been arrested. There have been other arrests too. I wonder what they will come up with.

This makes more sense than any other theory I have seen.

https://beyondhighbrow.com/2020/01/18/false-flag-flight-752-in-iran-was-shot-down-by-us-allies-with-a-stinger-missile-not-by-an-iranian-missile/


Jackrabbit , Jan 19 2020 6:00 utc | 86

Mike Javaras @82: The Iranian missile hit second after the plane had already been hit by the Stinger ...

MANPADs like Stingers are heat-seeking. They go after ENGINES. On a big plane like PS732, a MANPADs is unlikely to have stopped the transponder and communications.

Philip Giraldi points a finger at US/Israeli Electronic Warfare:

Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752?
Iran Shot It Down But There May Be More to the Story

Giraldi thinks the transponder was hacked. But the article he cites also talks about a device on board that would've allowed for EW. And he notes that Israel probably ALSO has the capability to have been responsible for the EW and/or device on board.

!!

V , Jan 19 2020 6:21 utc | 89
MOSCOW – Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov stated there is unverified information that at least six American F-35 jets were in the Iranian border area at the time when Tehran accidentally downed Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 last week.

www.fortruss.com

[Jan 19, 2020] False Flag Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran Shootdown

Jan 18, 2020 | www.zerohedge.com

Philip Giraldi, a former counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer of the CIA, penned a piece in the American Herald Tribune speculating that the U.S. launched several cyber-attacks, one on an Iranian missile defense system, and another on the transponder of the doomed Ukrainian plane.

Giraldi explains the Iranian missile operator experienced extreme "jamming" and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752's transponder was switched off several minutes before the two Russian made Tor missiles were launched.

"The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired," he said.

Giraldi said the Tor missile system used by Iran is vulnerable to being hacked or "spoofed," and at the same moment, Flight 752's transponder was taken offline "to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government."

The Pentagon has reportedly developed technologies that can trick enemy radars with false and deceptively moving targets, he said.

"The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location. The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter signals relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel presumably has the same ability," Giraldi said.

Iran made the claim Wednesday that "enemy sabotage" cannot be ruled out in the downing of the plane.

Iranian Brigadier General Ali Abdollahi suggested the U.S. hacked missile defense systems to make it appear Flight 752 was an incoming missile.

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani also accused the U.S. of being responsible for the downing of the plane, saying that:

"The root of all sorrows goes back to America... this cannot be a reason for us not to look into all the root causes."

He added that:

"One cannot believe that a passenger plane is struck near an international airport while flying in a [commercial] flight channel," after previously saying that IRGC commanders were not the only ones involved in the plane downing, noting that "There were others, too."

The Iranian parliament also stated that "we are in powerful confrontation with the criminal U.S. and do not allow a mistake to pave the ground for misusing the issue by the enemies."

Giraldi concludes by saying electronic warfare by the U.S. to bring down a civilian jet and blame it on Iran "suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event" to create a false flag for the next world war.


Pernicious Gold Phallusy , 2 minutes ago link

I would think armed forces near an international airport would be extra careful before flipping some switches.

Dachaguy , 8 minutes ago link

Of course, Iran and the pilot of the plane had nothing to gain and everything to lose by turning off the transponders, which makes it more than likely a third party was involved in the downing of the plane. You don't need to be a genius to figure out who stood to gain by killing all those civilians. Giving the black box to Ukraine, America's puppet state, was probably a mistake.

Minamoto , 13 minutes ago link

Golf of Tonkin incident...

Operation Gladio...

WMD in Iraq...

7 World Trade...

The Pentagon and CIA involvements in the funding, training and arming of Sunni groups in Syria was documented in congressional committees...

The list of false flag operations perpetrated by the US is a long one... and in the past decades Mossad is also involved.

Schacht Mat , 21 minutes ago link

Interesting - I have harbored the same opinion after seeing the nationalities of the passengers and reviewing the 2 missile video. In fact, I believe that the plane was rigged with a unit to turn off both the transponder and the communication system, and then to trigger an explosive in the wing tank after missile launch (triggering mechanisms likely externally enabled). Let's look at this:

1. Nationalities - could not find references to too many American citizens, but lot's of Canadians; ie: no real exposure at home and this gives Trudeau (Trudope..) a headache to deal with that brings him closer to the Neocon camp - a little payback for the hot mike moment at the G7.

2. Iranians may be poorly trained and, at that moment, itchy fingered, but planes were coming and going from that airport all day. What made this one special - no transponder signal. Jamming is too easy to spot; it is much easier to install a remote kill switch on the plane in Ukraine (you know, where the US has lot's of ground assets with access to sensitive facilities like airports) and then turn off the transponder after leaving the Tehran airport.

3. Black box shows that there were no communications from the plane to the airport controllers or anyone else; yet, the crew was over staffed with competent flight crew. Note the time between when the first missile detonates and when the fire is seen on the wing of the plane; there is plenty of time for a competent aircrew to call off the attack, yet there was only radio silence. Somebody also killed the radios, which means this was planned.

3. The Tor system is not that great. Note that they fired one missile, it detonated, and there was no obvious visible effect on the plane. It was at that point that a second missile was fired; again it detonated and again there was no obvious visible effect on the plane. From the video, it appears that while the missiles may have caused damage, they do not appear to have been catastrophic.

4. Because of point 3 above, it appears that the planners had a fail safe; that being an explosive in the right wing (likely in the fuel tank as that is reasonably easy to insert), and that was detonated several seconds after the second missile did not drop the plane, and there was no third missile being launched at the airplane (perhaps the missile ground crew figured out something was wrong because the target was not going evasive, or maybe they had nothing else launch ready - unknown at this time). This would have had to have been detonated remotely (any stealthy drones hiding in that night sky??).

5. Wing burn - This sequence of events would explain the videos of the attack; I have not seen any other explanation for why the wing waited so long to suddenly erupt in flames (the plane just took off - lots of fuel, yet the flight was not that long, so there were plenty of fumes as well for hot shrapnel to ignite) after the second missile detonation. This just does not make sense on a paper thin civilian target. Also, it does not appear (from the flame morphology) that hot jet exhaust subsequently ignited leaking fuel (which could possibly explain the delay between the second missile detonation and the appearance of the fireball).

Finally, why did they do this? I doubt that it was to provoke war; likely it was to keep the Iranians from hitting any further US targets by embarrassing the them internationally, and at the same time setting Ukraine, their regional (and after the last election less than completely compliant) client state against Iran while at the same time getting Canada in line with US policy and giving its "true bearded dope" of a Prime Minister a black eye.

Another interesting note; the US has in depth penetration of both Canadian and Ukrainian institutions, which is important as these two countries have the greatest claim to being an integral part of the investigation, which means that by proxy the US has a ringside seat to manage the obscuring of any unhelpful facts that may be uncovered. This is the mistake they made with MH17, in that many of the passengers were Dutch, and thus the Dutch took the investigative lead. Getting that report properly obscured cost them a lot of gold, and they were not going to make the same mistake twice.

Any of these issues, taken individually, can be dismissed; however, taken together, the package is just too sweet - that many things coming together "coincidentally" is beyond any laws of probability that I have come across.

Pernicious Gold Phallusy , 43 seconds ago link

I suspect every member of the armed forces in Iran has been drilled with the knowledge the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian passenger jet that supposedly had its transponder turned off.

madashellron , 41 minutes ago link

From MOA.

"It is sad that this incident happened and that 176 lost their life. But if one wants to find a person guilty for it one must look for the person who caused the whole situation. That person is not the lowly sergeant who pressed the button. That person is U.S. President Donald Trump."

Max Hunter , 39 minutes ago link

They admitted to shooting it down, the reasons are still unclear and the fact that this plane was shot down while the country itself was expecting an attack from the US or Israel only lends to speculation that there was more involved with this accident. Of course, your mind is made up that the evil Iranians killed a bunch of people because they are moral degenerates as the US and Israhell are forever seated on moral high ground.

MadelynMarie , 52 minutes ago link

https://www.sott.net/article/427443-Iran-Jet-Disaster-Setup-Was-Electronic-Warfare-in-Play

https://www.sott.net/article/427303-Was-Iranian-Missile-Operator-Tricked-Into-Shooting-Down-The-Ukrainian-Airlines-Plane-Over-Tehran

[Jan 19, 2020] Unexplained flight discrepancies by Joseph Nathan

Notable quotes:
"... When framed across the other unknown technologies that are powering the complex avionics on the Boeing 737-800, the US-China trade war and why so many economies are investing big monies in building their own GNSS, there is just a remote possibility that something sinister may be at play. ..."
"... When we examine the final seconds of the Ukrainian PS752 based on known data at this stage of the investigation, it resembles the final seconds of MH370, just before it disappeared from the radar and remains unaccounted for to this day. Could it be just another aviation coincidence? ..."
Jan 19, 2020 | www.asiatimes.com

Originally from: Asia Times Has US overplayed its tech advantage

... ... ...

As more data are being released, there are already some glaring discrepancies that baffle even aviation experts. When the doomed Ukrainian airliner, Flight PS752, switched from Tehran Iman Khomeini International Airport to Mehrabad air traffic control at 2,400 meters, at a position about 20 kilometers from the airport, it lost contact, just minutes before it was shot down. Flight-path records show that the aircraft was making a turn back in the direction of the airport.

Concurrently as this was taking place, the Iranians were firing missiles at Iraqi bases that house US forces in retaliation for the killing of their general.

If the US has the intelligence to pinpoint with such accuracy what was happening to PS752 while its troops were being fired upon, it raises the question as to whether the US has managed to circumvent the Iranians' GPS used for the rocket attacks on their troops and inadvertently set the missiles on a wrong course.

While the Iranians may have the capability to jam or spoof territorial intrusions like in 2011, when they managed to override an American RQ-170 stealth drone and landed it on their territory, it does not have the capability to shield its GPS fully from the US.

Even the Israelis, known for their military strength, do not have the capability to shield their GPS fully from foreign interference. Last June, the Israel Defense Forces suffered such a disruption. They attributed it to the Russians using a combination of jamming and spoofing signal. Known as "smart jamming," this is used to deter drones and incursion risks over very specific airspace. This disruption was detected by the GRID (GNSS Radio Frequency Interference Detection) receiver on the International Space Station owned by the Naval Research Lab, Cornell University, the University of Texas and Aerospace Corp.

Such jamming and spoofing can create hazards for civilian and commercial navigation. It can also block military-grade equipment, as shown by the Russians in 2018 when they disrupted US drones operating in Syria to gather intelligence.

Should the Iranians' GPS be compromised by the US, all its rocket launches will be misguided by false data. Whether the US could deploy such a ruthless tactic against the Iranians begs greater scrutiny by the international community, as this unfortunate incident has just too many coincidences.

When framed across the other unknown technologies that are powering the complex avionics on the Boeing 737-800, the US-China trade war and why so many economies are investing big monies in building their own GNSS, there is just a remote possibility that something sinister may be at play.

When we examine the final seconds of the Ukrainian PS752 based on known data at this stage of the investigation, it resembles the final seconds of MH370, just before it disappeared from the radar and remains unaccounted for to this day. Could it be just another aviation coincidence?

... ... ...

Joseph Nathan has been the principal consultant with several consultancy agencies for 28 years in Singapore. For Malaysia and Indonesia, he undertakes projects via JN Advisory (M) Sdn Bhd, covering real estate and infrastructure, aviation, project and debt financing, and general business review (non-manufacturing). He holds an MBA from Macquarie Graduate School of Management, Australia.

[Jan 18, 2020] Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another.

Jan 18, 2020 | www.unz.com

barr , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:48 pm GMT

@JimDandy Hpw did the instruction to "Fly direct" prove fatal to MH 17

MUMBAI: The ministry of civil aviation's claim that there was no Air India flight near the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 when it was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday appears misleading.
An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away from the Malaysian aircraft,

Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. "Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal," said an airline source.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds-away-when-missile-struck-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshowprint/38702536.cms

1 Was India pressurized to deny the close proximity and 2 was it under pressure to deny that it heard the controller giving the instruction to MH 17????

[Jan 18, 2020] Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752 Iran Shot It Down But There May Be More to the Story by Philip Giraldi

Jan 18, 2020 | www.unz.com

What seems to have been a case of bad judgments and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched . There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

The electronic jamming coming from an unknown source meant that the air defense system was placed on manual operation, relying on human intervention to launch. The human role meant that an operator had to make a quick judgment in a pressure situation in which he had only moments to react. The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired.

The two missiles that brought the plane down came from a Russian-made system designated SA-15 by NATO and called Tor by the Russians. Its eight missiles are normally mounted on a tracked vehicle. The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents. Given what happened on that morning in Tehran, it is plausible to assume that something or someone deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government.

The SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be hacked or "spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take control. The United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also means fooling the operator. The Guardian has also reported independently how the United States military has long been developing systems that can from a distance alter the electronics and targeting of Iran's available missiles.

The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location. The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter signals relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel presumably has the same ability. Joe Quinn at Sott.net also notes an interested back story to those photos and video footage that have appeared in the New York Times and elsewhere showing the Iranian missile launch, the impact with the plane and the remains after the crash, to include the missile remains. They appeared on January 9 th , in an Instagram account called ' Rich Kids of Tehran '. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in "a low-income housing estate on the city's outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8 th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane ?"

Put together the Rich Kids and the possibility of electronic warfare and it all suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event of which the Soleimani assassination was only a part. There have been riots in Iran subsequent to the shooting down of the plane, blaming the government for its ineptitude. Some of the people in the street are clearly calling for the goal long sought by the United States and Israel, i.e. "regime change." If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another unprincipled actor with blood on its hands. There is much still to explain about the downing of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752.

Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation (Federal ID Number #52-1739023) that seeks a more interests-based U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.


AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 10:45 pm GMT

Given this news, any impartial observer would at least entertain the possibility of its truth, particularly given the lengthy track record of the United States/Israel in perpetrating such crimes.

It's a good litmus test for determining where one's sentiment lies. Even "alternative media" aren't likely to touch this story.

Bravo to Mr. Giraldi and Mr. Unz.

Sean , says: Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 11:10 pm GMT
The Iranian Ambassador to Britain, Hamid Baeidinejad said in an interview on the UK Channel 4 news hours ago that although Iran had needed time to determine what had happened, it had now accepted responsibility, would pay compensation, and the people who fired on the jet will be put on trial.

If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another unprincipled actor with blood on its hands.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime have good domestic disquiet reason to rethink the confrontational policy each are pursuing. Iran and the US could get closer over this. I think the predictable unpredictability of assassination and catastrophic loss of life events makes false flagging them of dubious value.

Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the money was the chips, that's all.

(Sutton W, Linn E: Where the Money Was: The Memoirs of a Bank Robber. Viking Press (1976), p. 160)

I suppose it is possible there are people who get addicted to false flagging others' deaths. If half of what is said in this site is true, Mossad really needs to set up a 12 step program.

onebornfree , says: Website Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 11:49 pm GMT
" .the big question which many people on social media are asking is: why was this "videographer" standing in a derelict industrial area outside Tehran at around six o'clock in the morning with a mobile phone camera training on a fixed angle to the darkened sky? The airliner is barely visible, yet the sky-watching person has the camera pointed and ready to film a most dramatic event, seconds before it happened. That strongly suggests, foreknowledge."

"Iran Jet Disaster Setup – Who Is the Mysterious Videographer?:"
https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/iran/3809-jet-disaster-setup.html

And I would add: how do we know the video[s] are even genuine? [Answer: we don't, it is only an unproven assumption at this time].

Regards, onebornfree

anonymous [150] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:36 am GMT
Hmmm, cameras waiting beforehand, transponders not working. Sort of sounds like 9-11, doesn't it?
The Alarmist , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 3:01 am GMT

The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched.

I vaguely recall reports of transponder issues arising during the shootdown of MH-17.

anonymous [405] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 3:49 am GMT

Civilian passenger flights were still departing and arriving in Tehran, almost certainly an error in judgment on the part of the airport authorities. Inexplicably, civilian aircraft continued to take off and land even after Flight 752 was shot down.

The Iranian government is blameworthy for keeping planes in the air either because of diabolical reasons (delays a counter attack) or economic (nearly $1 billion a year in overflight fees).

However, the pilots of the airliners that took over during the morning between the first missile hitting Iraq and the downing of the Ukrainian airliner were dumb and irresponsible.

Anon [230] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 4:10 am GMT

The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents.

Clearly you have no clue how an IFF operates and that no commercial airliner even has an IFF on board. Every commercial aircraft looks like the enemy to this SAM operator.

Also, you need to explain how spoofing a RADAR which creates a false track would cause the shoot down. The missile would simply target the false track instead of the real aircraft.

You also need to explain how an old SAM missile site can be hacked or spoofed to shoot down a civilian airliner. Especially this old one which has no Mode-S or ADS-B capability and only radio communication capability.

As Mark Twain said, it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt.

Anon [200] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:20 am GMT
Even if this was a clear mistake on Iran's part, the US and Israel still have blood on their hands for the downing of this plane. The missiles were launched in response to a targeted killing of an Iranian general. If that didn't happen, these missiles never would've been launched.

Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.

Onlooker , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:22 am GMT
@Anon Before calling someone an idiot it is better to follow Mark Twain's advice yourself. A more careful reading reveals no claim that IFF was onstalled on the airliner. The commenter does speculate that possible spoofing involved a false attribution of a real airliner not the creation of a false airliner and radar track. Perhaps you are familiar with "old" electronic countermeasures and not with the "new", "top secret" and spiffy versions hinted at by the U.S. military?
AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:30 am GMT
@Quartermaster /An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit./

From the SoTT link :

As it climbed and reached 4,600ft above ground level, the plane's transponder suddenly stopped working at about 6.14am, 2 minutes or so after take off . [emphasis added]

The plane was already airborne when the transponder stopped working.

AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:45 am GMT
@Onlooker Less than twenty replies into the thread and we've already got two individuals attempting to distort the facts. Here's the key link that readers should visit:

https://www.sott.net/article/427303-Was-Iranian-Missile-Operator-Tricked-Into-Shooting-Down-The-Ukrainian-Airlines-Plane-Over-Tehran

Compare the information there against what the detractors say here.

Daniel Rich , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:16 am GMT
@Quartermaster

The airliner had not been in the air long at all when it was shot down. An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit.

The flight departed Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airport at 02:42 UTC ( 06:12 local time ) and the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network at 02:44 UTC( 06:14 local time) . According to the report the aircraft climbed to 8000 feet and turned right back toward the airport and crashed at 02:48 UTC ( 06:18 local time ) -- four minutes after the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network. – Source Flight Radar 24

Mr. Giraldi's original claim:

The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

4 minutes after the transponders were switches off, the plane crashed .

Without [proper] access to the FDR and CVR, it's impossible to determine when the plane was hit and how long it took to crash, exactly.

The plane was only flying at 8,000 feet [its normal {flight} ceiling is 30,000 feet and above], so it's speed relatively low [cruise speed is between about 400 and 500 knots (460 – 575 mph / 740 – 930 kph), but the Ukrainian plane was still climbing] and the fall back to Earth relatively quick.

On the clip where the plane is on fire and finally crashes, the downward angle looked to be about 25 to 30 %, which is relatively steep. Time of downfall can be calculated when the relative data is available.

Therefore, Mr Giraldi's claim " several minutes before the missiles were launched " is technically correct , until proven wrong by data from the FDR and CVR,

utu , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:31 am GMT
The Tor system is too primitive to be hacked. It is a stand alone, autonomous and mostly analog system. The radar signals it generates are shown on analog tube-screens.
Ghali , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:07 am GMT
Interesting theory by P. Giraldi. However, I am very surprised that Israel/Mossad role in these acts of terrorism never mentioned. We know that Trump is a Zionist servant and acts on instructions from his jewish fananciers. We know, Trump is incapable of serious thinking.

Here is a good article with some interesting observations:
https://sputniknews.com/columnists/202001131078026961-iran-jet-disaster-setup/

GMC , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:10 am GMT
The Iranians took the hit because their missiles took out the airliner. And then, they could stop the Western media crying for the next 6 mos. and this gave them time to bring in other neutral investigators to look at the evidence and come up with logical scenarios. There is a reason the black boxes weren't given to any one else to own – because they still remember the scam investigation of MH 17. I f lew planes for over 20 yrs – Every controlled/radared airport would ask me to turn on my transponder if it wasn't on – Everyone of them. This plane not only came from Ukraine but was an easy target for a hack from any of the big Intel countries. The BIG STORY here is that most every plane flying today – can have the same type consequences!!! because of the Western War Machine.
AZ , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 10:08 am GMT
Ask the Israelis. They are experts in these operations. The blood of the innocent on their heads

R D Steele has some interesting thoughts as well:

https://phibetaiota.net/2020/01/robert-steele-world-war-iii-was-ukrainian-flight-ps752-a-western-false-flag-combining-remote-hijacking-and-transponder-disabling-to-trigger-two-tor-m1-missiles/

lavoisier , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:01 pm GMT
@Anon

Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.

Trudeau showed some real courage criticizing Trump and his terrible decisions.

More Western allies have to stand up to the Zionist stooge and call him out on his treachery and stupidity.

UncommonGround , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:23 pm GMT
@bobhammer

The Democrats have gone too far.

I believe that P.G. has supported Trump until recently.

Besides, you could get some general information about such themes if you read articles like the following:

There's No Evidence Iran Is Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Americans
by Stephen Zunes

https://progressive.org/dispatches/-no-evidence-iran-is-responsible-for-the-deaths-of-hundreds-of-americans-zunes-200107/

How the President Became a Drone Operator
by Allegra Harpootlian

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/16/how-the-president-became-a-drone-operator/

lavoisier , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:32 pm GMT
@bobhammer Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Turn off Fox News now.

We are not always the good guys and we are up to our necks in deceit, plunder, and evil. Our actions have harmed millions of people around the world and it has to stop.

It is time for more self-reflection as individuals and as a nation; and it is long past time for us to be comfortable with lies.

Anonymous [401] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 2:22 pm GMT
@bobhammer The "uninterruptible" autopilot can be activated – either by pilots or by on-board sensors, or by radio or satellite link<= connected to controls at the remote end. Government agencies, quasi government agencies, military brats and probably the entire group of privately operated NGOs and private party mobsters (bankers, corporations and private military armies and privateers) at the remote end, can take over control of in-flight Aircraft, and fly it, land it, take it off, whatever, even if the pilot sitting in the cockpit objects. and does all he can to retrieve control from the remote operator.

Several comments report says interrupt able remote control, allows, persons on the ground, to take from the pilot in a flying airplane, control of the airplane the pilot is suppose to be flying, in situations for example when terrorist are in the cockpit. I have not read the manufacture's literature nor do I have personal knowledge abut the equipment list of any of these aircraft, the list suggest they are all aircraft, not only equipped with the UAP but that they were all aircraft made by the same manufacturer. I am merely repeating what was on stated as fact on a website I visited.

Many are looking for proof that remotely equipped uninterruptible autopilots are being used as Remote Control weaponized drones . Imagine an pilot, located on the ground in London or somewhere parks his /her remote ground to air control vehicle and takes over flight control including turns on/off the transponder [<=which tells everyone where the plane is during its flight] on a plane that is flying, landing or taking off from say the Tehran airport in Iran?

My personal experience is that it generally takes less than 2 minutes after a transponder is turned off during a planes flight, before fighter jets arrive to escort the transponder disabled plane; so the whole system that protects civilian aircraft, and allows the military to know the aircraft is civilian, is dependent on the Transponder, installed in the airplane, to continuously squawk during flight, its exact position so that everyone can identify the flight, and track the aircraft during its flight. Every land based control tower, ATC control system center and military installation depends on that airborne squawking transponder to track the en-route progress of commercial and private aircraft flights from take off to landing.

Another comment made on that list referred to above claimed Uninterruptible Auto Pilot [UAP] equipped aircraft have been involved in unexplained flight accident/disappearance events (I have no personal knowledge about the equipment in these aircraft, I just repeated here what someone else said elsewhere, please verify these claims yourself or provide verification ) .

(4 @911) <=UAP allows pilot-less flights, no pilot need board the plane for its flight.
(PS752) (transponder turned off, destroyed by confused ground defense crews)
MH370 (vanished into thin air)
MH17 (had its flight path altered.)
Eyes focus on Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (UAP) .. to explain recent Tehran 160 person disaster?

This is really something to think about? Always the question has been how did four military officers from Iran, trained a few weeks in Florida to fly jets, manage to get through four differently located pilot screening TSA gates to fly the aircraft and passenger into the 9/11 events. Conspiracy theories suggest since no pilot is needed, there were no pilots for TSA to screening. Remote control on the ground flew the aircraft to their destinations.

Trinity , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 2:51 pm GMT
"By way of deception thou shalt do war."

Just about says it all doesn't it? What kind of people are we dealing with here? Of course only the morons out there are still being fooled by these kind of false flags. Even in the year 2020 these same morons still believe ZOG's 9-11 fairy tale and label any other theory as a "conspiracy." Speaking of conspiracies the biggest idiots out there, even bigger than the ones who believe ZOG's narrative or those type who believe the total wacktard stuff put out by ZIO controlled disinfo puppets like Alex Jones.

Ukrainian commercial airline? What other nation besides Iran does ZOG have it in for? Is it Russia?

War by deception? HARDLY to anyone with two brain cells left. These fools have been caught before, they aren't that clever. What they are is protected by a syndicate of bought and paid for politicians. They were caught attacking the USS Liberty, they were caught bombing American and British installations in Egypt, the Rosenbergs and Pollard were nailed, but of course despite all of this, America and her leaders continued the value Israel as a friend and an ally. With a friend like Israel, who needs enemies. Then of course we have the story of our 5 little dancing Israelis apprehended in NYC after being observed dancing and celebrating the WTC towers collapsing. So you mean a group of Israelis from Israel, nation that is ALLEGEDLY "friends" with America and America think it is hilarious and worth celebrating when America is attacked and thousands are burned alive or jump to their death from hundreds of feet above the street?? Of course "our" media quickly exonerated the celebrating Israelis and buried that story faster than your average house cat buries his own turds.

ZOG really thinks the average American has the IQ of a monkey. Even after the WMD caca they still think you people will believe anything they tell you to believe. The sad part is they are right about that with the majority of the population.

Pindos , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 4:01 pm GMT
@Anon Wrong anon

Identification, friend or foe (IFF) is a radar-based identification system designed for command and control. It uses a transponder that listens for an interrogation signal and then sends a response that identifies the broadcaster. It enables military and civilian air traffic control interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator. IFF may be used by both military and civilian aircraft.

unit472 , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 4:37 pm GMT
If such a capability exists would the US reveal and use it in such a minor circumstance. Occam's razor suggests this was just another case of 'better safe than sorry' during a time of military tensions. Not a whole lot different than the Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian airliner that came too close during a military confrontation in the Gulf.

I would hate to know how many 'friendly' aircraft were shot down by over zealous AAA gunners in WW2 but it wasn't just a handful.

scrub , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:24 pm GMT
Anybody who thinks that US-Israel wouldn't have been capable of staging such a horrific event as the shooting down of the airliner by Iran hasn't been following Whitney Webb's continuing articles which are available right here on UNZ. Israel seems to have insinuated itself into about every computer security program worldwide.

Webb's article mentions large scale defense contractor Dell Computer's close connection to the Israeli government. Dell computer head Michael Dell has personally made large contributions to that curious "charity" called The Friends of The Israeli Defense Forces as has Larry Ellison, head or Oracle Software. Interestingly enough, neither of them have made correspondingly large contributions to American veterans however.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Israel_Defense_Forces

Michael Dell is probably one of the biggest (or the biggest) single contributors to the Republicans from Texas, home of Dell computer. Larry Ellison (also a large government computer contractor) is also one of the Republican Party's biggest contributors.

Ellison's $5.5 million dollar contribution to the Republican is dwarfed however, by his recent contributions to The Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces which seem to total (as of today) $31 million (or more).

https://www.timesofisrael.com/record-53-8-million-raised-for-idf-soldiers-at-beverly-hills-gala/

Are both men and their companies security risks? Is there any doubt of this or are contribution to charity connected to a foreign army now simply to be considered as being benign and innocent.

anon [230] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:35 pm GMT
@Pindos Wrong anon

Identification, friend or foe (IFF) is a radar-based identification system designed for command and control. It uses a transponder that listens for an interrogation signal and then sends a response that identifies the broadcaster. It enables military and civilian air traffic control interrogation systems to identify aircraft, vehicles or forces as friendly and to determine their bearing and range from the interrogator. IFF may be used by both military and civilian aircraft.

Your Wikipedia snippet is absolutely incorrect . IFF is only used for Military Aircraft. If you want to prove me wrong:

Provide a link to any civilian transponder with IFF capability
Provide a link to any civilian aircraft Minimum Equipment List that requires an IFF

Rurik , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:38 pm GMT
@unit472

Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian airliner that came too close during a military confrontation in the Gulf.

Doesn't it rile you, as a U.S. veteran, that American soldiers are dying in treasonous service to an enemy nation?

Doesn't it bother you in the least, that Americans are on the hook for untold trillions of dollars, so they can slaughter innocent people, thousands of miles away, whose only "crime" is that a certain shitty little country, wants to see them all sent reeling into the stone age, (which is exactly what they want for you too).

Have y0u ever bothered to notice just exactly whom it is that is driving all the liberal-progressive shit we all see daily, with the ubiquitous homomania and Hollywood sewage force-injected into America's culture?

I see you occasionally speak against that stuff, but then when it comes to American soldiers dying on behalf of those rats, there you are, defending the narrative of Iran as bad guys.

How many Iranians do you see pumping Hollywood sewage into America's veins?

How many Iranians do you see on Capital Hill, demanding Trump and all his Deplorables are irredeemably racists? And need to have their guns taken away?

How many Iranians do you see at Goldman Sachs, (and the other 'Too big to fail Banksters) looting the country dry?

How many Iranians do you see in our universities, force-feeding America's youth the progressive-liberal monkey shit, they're paying to consume daily?

You'd have to be very myopic not to notice who it is behind America's depraved descent into cultural and spiritual guano. (not to mention the Eternal Wars, that only an imbecile could pretend not to notice ((who)) are behind them).

And I have a clue for you, it isn't the Iranians. In fact, they had a nice good taste of ((Western)) culture under the Shah, and they decided they'd rather not see their women whored out, and their children spiritually dead husks.

It'd be good if people could lift the veils they willfully allow to cover their own eyes, in some kind of misguided machismo about how tough "our" military are, as they're killing and dying on behalf of their worst enemy.

barr , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:48 pm GMT
@JimDandy Hpw did the instruction to "Fly direct" prove fatal to MH 17

MUMBAI: The ministry of civil aviation's claim that there was no Air India flight near the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 when it was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday appears misleading.
An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away from the Malaysian aircraft,

Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. "Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal," said an airline source.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds-away-when-missile-struck-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshowprint/38702536.cms

1 Was India pressurized to deny the close proximity and 2 was it under pressure to deny that it heard the controller giving the instruction to MH 17????

Saggy , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:09 pm GMT
@Anon http://www.dean-boys.com/extras/iff/iffqa.html

FAA regulations require that all aircraft, military or civilian, flying at an altitude of 10,000 feet or higher in U.S. controlled airspace, must be equipped with an operating IFF transponder system capable of automatic altitude reporting (this is the reason that two of the modes are used by both military and civilian aircraft).

So, did the Ukrainian plane have an IFF transponder or not? Ref?

Marvin Sandnes , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:52 pm GMT
The guy with the camera aimed up into a dark sky on that morning worked for a Saudi Arabia news service. From the "grayzone" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGw5GMXb4c&feature=em-uploademail
wdg , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:58 pm GMT
Cui bono? Israel and its NeoCon fifth column operating in the US and throughout the western world.
Iris , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:01 pm GMT
@Quartermaster

what Giraldi has published doesn't even rise to the level of the most idiotic conspiracy theory one can concoct.

It happened only a few months ago that an Israeli jet violated Syria's airspace and deliberately sheltered behind a Russian Iliouchine IL-20 to get it shot down by Syrian air defence.

It was so very clearly and simply explained by the Russian Chief of Staff than any imbecile could understand it; the idiot is definitely you.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45556290

A123 , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:02 pm GMT
@Saggy I believe you are correct.

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/iff

My understanding is:

A civilian transponder will respond to almost any inquiry (or even a non-coded radar pulse):
-- Standard civilian transponder code = USA military Mode 3.
-- Standard civilian transponder altitude reporting = USA military Mode C.

To reduce detectability in combat, the pilot can change the setting on a Military IFF system to only squawk when a correctly coded interrogation signal is recieved.

Saggy , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:28 pm GMT
@Saggy Moon Of Alabama has the story –

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/was-the-shootdown-of-the-ukrainian-airplane-near-tehran-really-a-mistake.html

The Boeing jet broadcast the usual civil ADS-B signal but one has to expect that a U.S. cruise missile can and would do the same.

although 'one can expect ' seems like one hell of an assumption.

Frederick V. Reed , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:30 pm GMT
Transponders are turned on and off with switches in the cockpit. Is Giraldi suggesting that this transponder was equipped to be controlled from outside? Source of assertion that transponder was turned off? Can he name any commercial transponder with this feature? Does he know anythng about elctroic warfare? This sounds like the birthing of a conspiracy theory.
Just passing through , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:07 pm GMT
@DaveE The hilarious thing in Britain is that many people on the comments sections of MSM will talk about 'Asian' or more specifically 'Muslim' child rape gangs, because these gangs were heavily Muslim they can be referred to using the adjective 'Muslim'.

But when you point out that the ones beating the drums for war in Iran and who successfully plunged America and UK into a long a protracted war in the Middle East are mostly Jewish, as evidenced by this article in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz

they start getting all pissy, because of the Holocaust legend, Jews are now above scrutiny and Jewish power cannot be talked about. It is the slipperly slope fallacy, what is merely being advocated for here is not to trust a single thing that comes out of the mouth of a Jew regarding the Middle East as there is a clear conflict of interest, not genocide.

I also suspect that peoples understandable antagonism towards Muslims has somehow made them more sympathetic to Israel. Tommy Robinson is for example funded by rich Jews like Ezra Levant of Rebel Media and Robert J. Shillman – who sits on the board of Friends of Israel Defence Forces – shills for Israel. Now the Western goyim start frothing at the mouth when they hear Muslim and so think countries like Iran are evil and out to destory the West, a laughable claim.

Iris , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:11 pm GMT
@Z-man

stupid Christian Zionist dogma

You don't have to apologise. Christian Zionists are no Christians; they are uncultured, criminal country-bumpkins utilised by their Zionist handlers to justify the destruction of the twice-millenary Christian Arab community.

Here is what real Christians think:
Mor Maurice Amsih, Syrian Orthodox Bishop of Euphrates, demonstrating against the murder of General Soleimani, calling Soleimani and his companions " martyrs " who are now " Saints in the Heavenly Kingdom" for their blood shed freeing the Syrian people from Zio-sponsored terrorists. [@ 0:25]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/1eH4djCP2mI?feature=oembed

Anonymous [230] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:18 pm GMT
@Saggy

Moon Of Alabama has the story –

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/was-the-shootdown-of-the-ukrainian-airplane-near-tehran-really-a-mistake.html

The Boeing jet broadcast the usual civil ADS-B signal but one has to expect that a U.S. cruise missile can and would do the same.

although 'one can expect ' seems like one hell of an assumption.

This is absolutely irrelevant since the Iranian SAM missile launcher is so old it can not even detect and decode ADS-B signals. Note that the requirement for ADS-B transponders only came into effect this year .

AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:22 pm GMT
Some additional information to consider:

IRGC Releases Details of Accidental Downing of Ukrainian Plane

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-details-of-accidental-downing-of-ukrainian-plane

By the account of Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hajizadeh:

1. Prior to the downing of the aircraft, Americans had threatened to hit 52 sites in Iran.
2. These threats placed Iran's air defense systems on the highest alert level.
3. There were reports that cruise missles had been fired at Iran.
4. In spite of IRGC requests that airspace be cleared of commercial flights, those requests were not met.
5. The air defense unit recognized Flight 752 as a cruise missle from a distance of 19 kilometers, but is still required to get approval to fire upon it.
6. When the operator attempts to get approval, he can not do so due to "disruption" of his communication system.
7. The operator is forced to make an independent decision in a 10 second window of time and fires upon the plane.

Russell Bentley , however, states that

1. the SA-15 system has an IFF interrogator built into its radar system,
2. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated prior to take off, and
3. it is possible for a plane to take off without an IFF transponder operating.
4. In spite of all this, the flight's recording on FLIGHTRADAR24.COM , proves that the transponder was on and working.
5. Even if there was no IFF signal, a SA-15/TOR M-1 operator could still determine the location, bearing, speed and size of the potential target.
6. The SA-15 also has an automatic all weather day/night NV/IR Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS) used for target engagement and fire control by which the plane would have been easily identified.
7. Flight 752 should have been identifiable as a commercial airliner by its external lights alone.

From this information, he concludes that either there are traitors within Iran seeking to facilitate regime change or that the downing of Flight 752 was a false flag operation perpetrated by the usual suspects.

I'd like to see more information about this topic from those qualified to speak about it.

A123 , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 9:29 pm GMT
@AnonStarter

2. These threats placed Iran's air defense systems on the highest alert level
7. The operator is forced to make an independent decision in a 10 second window of time and fires upon the plane.

How long were the operators on alert? Tension and sleep deprivation are a bad mix. This looks like the crew on the ground had seconds to make a decision, and in the rush got it wrong.

I'm not sure how anyone on the outside could tell if the operator made the launch by mistake or from ill intent. No doubt the crew will be given the Richard Jewell treatment in an attempt to deflect blame from the religious hierarchy.

anonymous [393] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 9:40 pm GMT
@AnonStarter

1. the SA-15 system has an IFF interrogator built into its radar system,

Correct

2. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated prior to take off, and

Incorrect The Boeing 737 aircrfat has two ATC Transponders only one of which is activated prior to takeoff. The second ATC transponder is only activated if the first one fails. An ATC Transponder is NOT an IFF transponder.

3. it is possible for a plane to take off without an IFF transponder operating.

Incorrect . A functioning ATC transponder is part the Boeing 737 Minimum Equipment List which is available here . The only way the Ukraine Air crew could have gotten around this requirement was to get prior permission from the Iranian Civil Aviation Authority and EVERY other country's Cicil Aviation Authority in its flight path which I can guarantee you would not be forthcoming.

5. Even if there was no IFF signal, a SA-15/TOR M-1 operator could still determine the location, bearing, speed and size of the potential target.

Incorrect The operator could determine range, range rate. and bearing if the transponder was not function.

6. The SA-15 also has an automatic all weather day/night NV/IR Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS) used for target engagement and fire control by which the plane would have been easily identified.

The plane was at least 1.5 miles away (8000 ft altitude). You go get yourself a pair of Night Vision/Infra Red scopes and see how well you do identifying different aircraft from that distance

Just passing through , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 10:12 pm GMT
@Ron Unz One good article to show people in relation to the Israel Lobby's influence on America's decision to go to war in Iraq is an article in Israeli newspaper Haaretz titled White Man's Burden which carries the following subheading;

The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history. Two of them, journalists William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer, say it's possible. But another journalist, Thomas Friedman (not part of the group), is skeptical.

This comes from a reputable newspaper from Israel so cannot be dismissed as the ravings of some neo-Nazis. I have found this to have the most success in getting people online to think about the Iraq War more, it is impossible for detractors to label a link to an Israeli newspaper article as "anti-Semitic" without looking absurd.

I would find the UN's review kind of hard to recommend to people in real life simple because of the provocative nature of the stories it runs. The American Pravda series is of course very informative but the articles require quite a bit of time to read through and check the hyperlinks within the article itself. Without sounding like someone with a superiority complex, most people cannot read this much information and grasp it. Many will not touch articles relating to Holocaust Denial or race.

But anyway, you sir are doing great work with the maintenance and story selection on this website and I wish you the best of luck in the future. It certainly has armed me with lots of information that I can use to counter mainstream narratives in a whole host of issues. Although my efforts in real life have not been very successful, I do seem to be getting some success in my cyber-activism on mainstream news websites, where I am able to provide a clear and cogent narrative with links to reputable websites and not come across as a nutjob who raves about da jooz .

Curmudgeon , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 10:19 pm GMT
@Anon Sharpen your reading skills. Civilian aircraft have different frequency transponders than military aircraft. Flight plans are filed, and the transponder signals correspond to filed flight plans. When attacking, military craft turn off their transponders. No transponder signal = no corresponding flight plan = unfriendly aircraft.
There is no need to "spoof" anything, once the transponder stops signalling. That aside, I found it curious that this particular airplane was on its first flight after major maintenance. Who knows what was done in servicing. If the computer in the car you drive can be hijacked to cause sudden acceleration or brake failurs, an airplane's certainly can.
Curmudgeon , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 10:22 pm GMT
@lavoisier Unfortunately, Trudeau is just a different sort of Zionist stooge. His mentor, Irwin Cotler, is popular enough in Israel to be President.

[Jan 18, 2020] Actually Boeing has an uninterruptable autopilot system that can result in remote control of the plane.

Jan 18, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

lgfocus , Jan 16 2020 20:10 utc | 25

A P @5

Actually Boeing has an uninterruptable autopilot system that can result in remote control of the plane.
FLIGHT CONTROL: Boeing's 'Uninterruptible Autopilot System', Drones & Remote Hijacking
https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/08/07/flight-control-boeings-uninterruptible-autopilot-system-drones-remote-hijacking/
This article is about the lost MH370.

Abel Danger went into quite a discussion of this during the 9/11 event that had 2 planes crashing into the towers. I can't find it on youtube any longer. A lot of their YTubes have been deleted.


[Jan 18, 2020] Open Thread 2020-04

Jan 18, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

zarathustra , Jan 16 2020 17:23 utc | 2

I saw in the Jan. 15 @2130 Teheran Times that, "TEHRAN – A possible disruption in Iran's radar network by the U.S. may have caused the operator mistake the Ukrainian passenger plan for an incoming American cruise missile, at top Iranian military official said late on Tuesday."

Read article at https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/444219/Iran-probing-possible-U-S-disruption-in-radar-system-that-caused

It wouldn't be at all surprising.


psychohistorian , Jan 16 2020 17:46 utc | 4

@ zarathustra and james about the Ukrainian plane downing

Here is another link saying similar things

Iranian Military Now Claims US 'Cyberattack' Brought Down Passenger Plane

A P , Jan 16 2020 18:09 utc | 5
A Canadian here... The yappy-lapdog Canadian gov't is "demanding" a whole lot of control over the investigation, yet in the same breath demands "impartial" analysis and prosecution of the perps... by definition, the Cdn gov't is not impartial, it is a vassal administration of the US/ZATO/5Eyes MIC.

More importantly, will the black box show what happened regarding reports that the plane's transponder had been shut off shortly after take-off and before the missiles were launched. It is known from the MH370 investigation that Boeing planes automatically report back to Boeing head office with various bits of telemetry. Is it such a stretch that Boeing has various "backdoors" in the 737 flight computers which could allow the transponders to be shut off remotely? The CIA/Mossad surely would know about such backdoors, being Boeing is part and parcel of the US MIC.

The Canadian rabid response smacks of trying to hide or get ahead of any proof of the above.

John Merryman. , Jan 16 2020 18:13 utc | 6
Looking at all the stories coming out, the deep state is getting pretty serious about getting rid of Trump.
What if they get Biden as the democratic nominee too and we have a Pence/Biden matchup?
Top that with everything the Fed is doing to keep the market bubble from bursting and it raises interesting possibilities.
Trump laughing it up from the sidelines, for one thing.
Hausmeister , Jan 16 2020 18:14 utc | 7
psychohistorian | Jan 16 2020 17:46 utc | 4

This Nariman Gharib or his commanders are straightout stupid. With this behaviour they confirm the suspicion that the incident was staged. While proof of electronic warfare to create the havoc may never come or is impossible to obtain the main weakness of the effort is the fact that filming the event in the middle of the night from a rooftop is explainable only if the camera guy has known what would happen where. - Staged to overshadow the impressive triumph the Iranians had with the attack on the Iraqi US base.

[Jan 16, 2020] Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752 Iran Shot It Down But There May Be More to the Story by Philip Giraldi

Jan 16, 2020 | www.unz.com

What seems to have been a case of bad judgments and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched . There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

The electronic jamming coming from an unknown source meant that the air defense system was placed on manual operation, relying on human intervention to launch. The human role meant that an operator had to make a quick judgment in a pressure situation in which he had only moments to react. The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired.

The two missiles that brought the plane down came from a Russian-made system designated SA-15 by NATO and called Tor by the Russians. Its eight missiles are normally mounted on a tracked vehicle. The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents. Given what happened on that morning in Tehran, it is plausible to assume that something or someone deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government.

The SA-15 Tor defense system used by Iran has one major vulnerability. It can be hacked or "spoofed," permitting an intruder to impersonate a legitimate user and take control. The United States Navy and Air Force reportedly have developed technologies "that can fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets." Fooling the system also means fooling the operator. The Guardian has also reported independently how the United States military has long been developing systems that can from a distance alter the electronics and targeting of Iran's available missiles.

The same technology can, of course, be used to alter or even mask the transponder on a civilian airliner in such a fashion as to send false information about identity and location. The United States has the cyber and electronic warfare capability to both jam and alter signals relating to both airliner transponders and to the Iranian air defenses. Israel presumably has the same ability. Joe Quinn at Sott.net also notes an interested back story to those photos and video footage that have appeared in the New York Times and elsewhere showing the Iranian missile launch, the impact with the plane and the remains after the crash, to include the missile remains. They appeared on January 9 th , in an Instagram account called ' Rich Kids of Tehran '. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in "a low-income housing estate on the city's outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8 th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane ?"

Put together the Rich Kids and the possibility of electronic warfare and it all suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event of which the Soleimani assassination was only a part. There have been riots in Iran subsequent to the shooting down of the plane, blaming the government for its ineptitude. Some of the people in the street are clearly calling for the goal long sought by the United States and Israel, i.e. "regime change." If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another unprincipled actor with blood on its hands. There is much still to explain about the downing of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752.

Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation (Federal ID Number #52-1739023) that seeks a more interests-based U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.


AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 10:45 pm GMT

Given this news, any impartial observer would at least entertain the possibility of its truth, particularly given the lengthy track record of the United States/Israel in perpetrating such crimes.

It's a good litmus test for determining where one's sentiment lies. Even "alternative media" aren't likely to touch this story.

Bravo to Mr. Giraldi and Mr. Unz.

Sean , says: Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 11:10 pm GMT
The Iranian Ambassador to Britain, Hamid Baeidinejad said in an interview on the UK Channel 4 news hours ago that although Iran had needed time to determine what had happened, it had now accepted responsibility, would pay compensation, and the people who fired on the jet will be put on trial.

If nothing else, Iran, which was widely seen as the victim in the killing of Soleimani, is being depicted in much of the international media as little more than another unprincipled actor with blood on its hands.

Both Trump and the Iranian regime have good domestic disquiet reason to rethink the confrontational policy each are pursuing. Iran and the US could get closer over this. I think the predictable unpredictability of assassination and catastrophic loss of life events makes false flagging them of dubious value.

Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the money was the chips, that's all.

(Sutton W, Linn E: Where the Money Was: The Memoirs of a Bank Robber. Viking Press (1976), p. 160)

I suppose it is possible there are people who get addicted to false flagging others' deaths. If half of what is said in this site is true, Mossad really needs to set up a 12 step program.

onebornfree , says: Website Show Comment January 15, 2020 at 11:49 pm GMT
" .the big question which many people on social media are asking is: why was this "videographer" standing in a derelict industrial area outside Tehran at around six o'clock in the morning with a mobile phone camera training on a fixed angle to the darkened sky? The airliner is barely visible, yet the sky-watching person has the camera pointed and ready to film a most dramatic event, seconds before it happened. That strongly suggests, foreknowledge."

"Iran Jet Disaster Setup – Who Is the Mysterious Videographer?:"
https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/iran/3809-jet-disaster-setup.html

And I would add: how do we know the video[s] are even genuine? [Answer: we don't, it is only an unproven assumption at this time].

Regards, onebornfree

anonymous [150] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:36 am GMT
Hmmm, cameras waiting beforehand, transponders not working. Sort of sounds like 9-11, doesn't it?
The Alarmist , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 3:01 am GMT

The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched.

I vaguely recall reports of transponder issues arising during the shootdown of MH-17.

anonymous [405] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 3:49 am GMT

Civilian passenger flights were still departing and arriving in Tehran, almost certainly an error in judgment on the part of the airport authorities. Inexplicably, civilian aircraft continued to take off and land even after Flight 752 was shot down.

The Iranian government is blameworthy for keeping planes in the air either because of diabolical reasons (delays a counter attack) or economic (nearly $1 billion a year in overflight fees).

However, the pilots of the airliners that took over during the morning between the first missile hitting Iraq and the downing of the Ukrainian airliner were dumb and irresponsible.

Anon [230] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 4:10 am GMT

The system includes both radar to detect and track targets as well as an independent launch system, which includes an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system functionality capable of reading call signs and transponder signals to prevent accidents.

Clearly you have no clue how an IFF operates and that no commercial airliner even has an IFF on board. Every commercial aircraft looks like the enemy to this SAM operator.

Also, you need to explain how spoofing a RADAR which creates a false track would cause the shoot down. The missile would simply target the false track instead of the real aircraft.

You also need to explain how an old SAM missile site can be hacked or spoofed to shoot down a civilian airliner. Especially this old one which has no Mode-S or ADS-B capability and only radio communication capability.

As Mark Twain said, it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt.

Anon [200] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:20 am GMT
Even if this was a clear mistake on Iran's part, the US and Israel still have blood on their hands for the downing of this plane. The missiles were launched in response to a targeted killing of an Iranian general. If that didn't happen, these missiles never would've been launched.

Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.

Onlooker , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 5:22 am GMT
@Anon Before calling someone an idiot it is better to follow Mark Twain's advice yourself. A more careful reading reveals no claim that IFF was onstalled on the airliner. The commenter does speculate that possible spoofing involved a false attribution of a real airliner not the creation of a false airliner and radar track. Perhaps you are familiar with "old" electronic countermeasures and not with the "new", "top secret" and spiffy versions hinted at by the U.S. military?
AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:30 am GMT
@Quartermaster /An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit./

From the SoTT link :

As it climbed and reached 4,600ft above ground level, the plane's transponder suddenly stopped working at about 6.14am, 2 minutes or so after take off . [emphasis added]

The plane was already airborne when the transponder stopped working.

AnonStarter , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 6:45 am GMT
@Onlooker Less than twenty replies into the thread and we've already got two individuals attempting to distort the facts. Here's the key link that readers should visit:

https://www.sott.net/article/427303-Was-Iranian-Missile-Operator-Tricked-Into-Shooting-Down-The-Ukrainian-Airlines-Plane-Over-Tehran

Compare the information there against what the detractors say here.

Daniel Rich , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:16 am GMT
@Quartermaster

The airliner had not been in the air long at all when it was shot down. An Airliner can not legally launch with deadlined transponder, so the claim that it quit transmitting "several" minutes earlier would have placed it on the ground when it quit.

The flight departed Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airport at 02:42 UTC ( 06:12 local time ) and the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network at 02:44 UTC( 06:14 local time) . According to the report the aircraft climbed to 8000 feet and turned right back toward the airport and crashed at 02:48 UTC ( 06:18 local time ) -- four minutes after the last ADS-B signal was received by the Flightradar24 network. – Source Flight Radar 24

Mr. Giraldi's original claim:

The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable "jamming" and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

4 minutes after the transponders were switches off, the plane crashed .

Without [proper] access to the FDR and CVR, it's impossible to determine when the plane was hit and how long it took to crash, exactly.

The plane was only flying at 8,000 feet [its normal {flight} ceiling is 30,000 feet and above], so it's speed relatively low [cruise speed is between about 400 and 500 knots (460 – 575 mph / 740 – 930 kph), but the Ukrainian plane was still climbing] and the fall back to Earth relatively quick.

On the clip where the plane is on fire and finally crashes, the downward angle looked to be about 25 to 30 %, which is relatively steep. Time of downfall can be calculated when the relative data is available.

Therefore, Mr Giraldi's claim " several minutes before the missiles were launched " is technically correct , until proven wrong by data from the FDR and CVR,

utu , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 7:31 am GMT
The Tor system is too primitive to be hacked. It is a stand alone, autonomous and mostly analog system. The radar signals it generates are shown on analog tube-screens.
Ghali , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:07 am GMT
Interesting theory by P. Giraldi. However, I am very surprised that Israel/Mossad role in these acts of terrorism never mentioned. We know that Trump is a Zionist servant and acts on instructions from his jewish fananciers. We know, Trump is incapable of serious thinking.

Here is a good article with some interesting observations:
https://sputniknews.com/columnists/202001131078026961-iran-jet-disaster-setup/

GMC , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 8:10 am GMT
The Iranians took the hit because their missiles took out the airliner. And then, they could stop the Western media crying for the next 6 mos. and this gave them time to bring in other neutral investigators to look at the evidence and come up with logical scenarios. There is a reason the black boxes weren't given to any one else to own – because they still remember the scam investigation of MH 17. I f lew planes for over 20 yrs – Every controlled/radared airport would ask me to turn on my transponder if it wasn't on – Everyone of them. This plane not only came from Ukraine but was an easy target for a hack from any of the big Intel countries. The BIG STORY here is that most every plane flying today – can have the same type consequences!!! because of the Western War Machine.
AZ , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 10:08 am GMT
Ask the Israelis. They are experts in these operations. The blood of the innocent on their heads

R D Steele has some interesting thoughts as well:

https://phibetaiota.net/2020/01/robert-steele-world-war-iii-was-ukrainian-flight-ps752-a-western-false-flag-combining-remote-hijacking-and-transponder-disabling-to-trigger-two-tor-m1-missiles/

lavoisier , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:01 pm GMT
@Anon

Trump-Pence-Pompeo-Kushner-Netanyahu are ultimately responsible for these 176 lives lost. I suspect MBS is also part of the scheme. It was his fake peace offering that lured Soleimani to Iraq in the first place. I'm with Trudeau on this.

Trudeau showed some real courage criticizing Trump and his terrible decisions.

More Western allies have to stand up to the Zionist stooge and call him out on his treachery and stupidity.

UncommonGround , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:23 pm GMT
@bobhammer

The Democrats have gone too far.

I believe that P.G. has supported Trump until recently.

Besides, you could get some general information about such themes if you read articles like the following:

There's No Evidence Iran Is Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Americans
by Stephen Zunes

https://progressive.org/dispatches/-no-evidence-iran-is-responsible-for-the-deaths-of-hundreds-of-americans-zunes-200107/

How the President Became a Drone Operator
by Allegra Harpootlian

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/16/how-the-president-became-a-drone-operator/

lavoisier , says: Website Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 12:32 pm GMT
@bobhammer Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Turn off Fox News now.

We are not always the good guys and we are up to our necks in deceit, plunder, and evil. Our actions have harmed millions of people around the world and it has to stop.

It is time for more self-reflection as individuals and as a nation; and it is long past time for us to be comfortable with lies.

Anonymous [401] Disclaimer , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 2:22 pm GMT
@bobhammer The "uninterruptible" autopilot can be activated – either by pilots or by on-board sensors, or by radio or satellite link<= connected to controls at the remote end. Government agencies, quasi government agencies, military brats and probably the entire group of privately operated NGOs and private party mobsters (bankers, corporations and private military armies and privateers) at the remote end, can take over control of in-flight Aircraft, and fly it, land it, take it off, whatever, even if the pilot sitting in the cockpit objects. and does all he can to retrieve control from the remote operator.

Several comments report says interrupt able remote control, allows, persons on the ground, to take from the pilot in a flying airplane, control of the airplane the pilot is suppose to be flying, in situations for example when terrorist are in the cockpit. I have not read the manufacture's literature nor do I have personal knowledge abut the equipment list of any of these aircraft, the list suggest they are all aircraft, not only equipped with the UAP but that they were all aircraft made by the same manufacturer. I am merely repeating what was on stated as fact on a website I visited.

Many are looking for proof that remotely equipped uninterruptible autopilots are being used as Remote Control weaponized drones . Imagine an pilot, located on the ground in London or somewhere parks his /her remote ground to air control vehicle and takes over flight control including turns on/off the transponder [<=which tells everyone where the plane is during its flight] on a plane that is flying, landing or taking off from say the Tehran airport in Iran?

My personal experience is that it generally takes less than 2 minutes after a transponder is turned off during a planes flight, before fighter jets arrive to escort the transponder disabled plane; so the whole system that protects civilian aircraft, and allows the military to know the aircraft is civilian, is dependent on the Transponder, installed in the airplane, to continuously squawk during flight, its exact position so that everyone can identify the flight, and track the aircraft during its flight. Every land based control tower, ATC control system center and military installation depends on that airborne squawking transponder to track the en-route progress of commercial and private aircraft flights from take off to landing.

Another comment made on that list referred to above claimed Uninterruptible Auto Pilot [UAP] equipped aircraft have been involved in unexplained flight accident/disappearance events (I have no personal knowledge about the equipment in these aircraft, I just repeated here what someone else said elsewhere, please verify these claims yourself or provide verification ) .

(4 @911) <=UAP allows pilot-less flights, no pilot need board the plane for its flight.
(PS752) (transponder turned off, destroyed by confused ground defense crews)
MH370 (vanished into thin air)
MH17 (had its flight path altered.)
Eyes focus on Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (UAP) .. to explain recent Tehran 160 person disaster?

This is really something to think about? Always the question has been how did four military officers from Iran, trained a few weeks in Florida to fly jets, manage to get through four differently located pilot screening TSA gates to fly the aircraft and passenger into the 9/11 events. Conspiracy theories suggest since no pilot is needed, there were no pilots for TSA to screening. Remote control on the ground flew the aircraft to their destinations.

Trinity , says: Show Comment January 16, 2020 at 2:51 pm GMT
"By way of deception thou shalt do war."

Just about says it all doesn't it? What kind of people are we dealing with here? Of course only the morons out there are still being fooled by these kind of false flags. Even in the year 2020 these same morons still believe ZOG's 9-11 fairy tale and label any other theory as a "conspiracy." Speaking of conspiracies the biggest idiots out there, even bigger than the ones who believe ZOG's narrative or those type who believe the total wacktard stuff put out by ZIO controlled disinfo puppets like Alex Jones.

Ukrainian commercial airline? What other nation besides Iran does ZOG have it in for? Is it Russia?

War by deception? HARDLY to anyone with two brain cells left. These fools have been caught before, they aren't that clever. What they are is protected by a syndicate of bought and paid for politicians. They were caught attacking the USS Liberty, they were caught bombing American and British installations in Egypt, the Rosenbergs and Pollard were nailed, but of course despite all of this, America and her leaders continued the value Israel as a friend and an ally. With a friend like Israel, who needs enemies. Then of course we have the story of our 5 little dancing Israelis apprehended in NYC after being observed dancing and celebrating the WTC towers collapsing. So you mean a group of Israelis from Israel, nation that is ALLEGEDLY "friends" with America and America think it is hilarious and worth celebrating when America is attacked and thousands are burned alive or jump to their death from hundreds of feet above the street?? Of course "our" media quickly exonerated the celebrating Israelis and buried that story faster than your average house cat buries his own turds.

ZOG really thinks the average American has the IQ of a monkey. Even after the WMD caca they still think you people will believe anything they tell you to believe. The sad part is they are right about that with the majority of the population.

[Jan 12, 2020] Box Score on airliner shoot down deaths: Iranians -176, USS Vincennes - 290

Jan 12, 2020 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Vincennes

(USS Vincennes)

OK pilgrims, we are told today that there are mobs in the streets of Tehran protesting the shoot down of the Ukrainian airliner. 176 were killed. We are carefully not told (thus far) how many Iranians are mobbed up in the streets but the implication spread by the Foxnews clown car is that the "Maximum Pressure" sanctions and propaganda campaign run by Israel and the US is about to cause the fall of the Islamic Republic of Iran. OK We will see.

Long ago during the Iran-Iraq War an Americans frigate USS Stark was attacked in the Gulf by an Iraqi F-! Mirage. The ship was hit by two French built Exocet missiles. I was a member of the JCS investigating board that traveled to Bahrein and Baghdad for the inquiry. The damage to the ship was frightful and many American sailors had been killed and wounded. The JCS decided that a chain of unfortunate and mistaken events had led to the incident but the US Navy conducted its own investigation and destroyed the careers of the captain of USS Stark and all his officers. The navy is very unforgiving of damage to its boats. Unless you have the vessel shot out from under you by enemy action you might as well go down with the ship

Later in the course of that war the anti-aircraft guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes was in the Gulf and it shot down an Iranian airliner killing 290 people on board. The Iranians were and probably still are convinced that Vincennes shot down the airliner as a result of the inherently evil and malevolent nature of the US.

In fact what happened was that the captain of Vincennes was afraid of suffering the same fate as the captain of the Stark who had been accused of not being quick enough to engage the Iraqi fighter bomber.

Well, folks, STUFF HAPPENS and the human link in a chain of events is always the most important link.

IMO Iranian air defenses accidentally shot down the Ukrainian airliner. Stuff Happens, especially in war. PL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident

Posted at 10:11 AM in History , Iran | Permalink

Reblog (0)

[Jan 12, 2020] When the bullets start flying and the bombs start dropping, terrible things can happen that no one has planned for. This is one of the great tragedies of war. Unintended consequences and so-called "collateral damage."

Jan 12, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Mao , Jan 12 2020 8:46 utc | 389

Tulsi Gabbard:

When the bullets start flying and the bombs start dropping, terrible things can happen that no one has planned for. This is one of the great tragedies of war. Unintended consequences and so-called "collateral damage."

[VIDEO]

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1216173675998633984

[Jan 12, 2020] Iran's accidental downing of a Ukrainian plane is already being used to smear MH-17 skeptics by Max Parry

Notable quotes:
"... What no one is mentioning is: the US airstrikes on Iraqi military bases, and Soleimani's murder contributed greatly to the hair trigger response of Iran's air defense forces. If Washington did not turn the heat up on both Iraq and Iran there would have been no need for Iran's retaliation, and thus the level of Iran's domestic defense forces would not have been so nervous as to pull the trigger downing the airliner. ..."
"... Former CIA high-ranking official accidentally reveals the type of the false flag operation that the US imperialists will orchestrate to start a war with Iran https://failedevolution.blogspot.com/2020/01/former-cia-high-ranking-official.html ..."
"... It reminds me too much of MH-17, which was not hit with a BUK but with bullets. Iran should have closed its airspace because such tricks are to be expected, irrespective of the cause of the current accident. ..."
Jan 11, 2020 | www.unz.com

When the Pentagon confirmed the assassination of Iranian Major General Qasem Soleimani, U.S. President Donald Trump took to social media to post a single image of the American flag to the adulation of his followers. Unfortunately, most Americans are ignorant of the other flag synonymous with U.S. foreign policy, that of the 'false flag' utilized to deceive the public and stir up support for endless war abroad. While the chicken hawk defenders of Trump's reckless decision to murder one of the biggest contributors in the defeat of ISIS salivated over possible war with Iran, their appetite was spoiled by Tehran's retaliatory precision strikes of two U.S. bases in Iraq that deliberately avoided casualties while in accordance with the Islamic Republic's right to self defense under Article 51 of the United Nations charter. The reprisal successfully deescalated the crisis but sent a clear message Iran was willing to stand up to the U.S. with the backing of Russia and China, while Washington underestimated Tehran which forewarned the Iraqi government of its impending counterattack so U.S. personnel could evacuate.

In the hours following the ballistic missile strikes, reports came in that a Boeing 737 international passenger flight scheduled from Tehran to Kiev, Ukraine had crashed shortly after takeoff from Imam Khomeini International Airport, killing all 176 passengers and flight crew on board. Initial video of the crash of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 (PS752) showed that the aircraft was already in flames while descending to the ground, leading to speculation it was shot down amid the heightened political crisis between Iran and Washington. In the days following, a second obscure video surfaced which only increased this suspicion. Meanwhile, Western governments quickly concluded that an anti-aircraft surface-to-air missile brought PS752 down and were eager to point the finger at Iran before any formal investigation. Many people, including this author, were admittedly skeptical as to how a plane taking off from Tehran could have been mistaken five hours after the strikes in Iraq.

Nevertheless, those with reservations turned out to be wrong when days later the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) came clean that its aerospace forces made a "human error" and accidentally shot the passenger plane down after mistaking it for a incoming cruise missile when it flew close to a military base during a heightened state of alert in anticipation of U.S. attack. Many have noted that Iran's honorable decision to take responsibility for the catastrophe is in sharp contrast with Washington's response in 1988 when the U.S. Navy shot down Iran Air Flight 655 scheduled from Tehran to Dubai over the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 occupants, after failing to cover it up. Just a month later, Vice President George H.W. Bush would notoriously state he would " never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are ." Although he was not directly referring to the incident, one can only imagine what the reaction would be if Iranian President Hassan Rouhani were to say the same weeks after shooting down the Ukrainian plane, let alone an American one. Predictably, Tehran's transparency has gone mostly unappreciated while the Trump administration is already trying to use the disaster to further demonize Iran.

Oddly enough, Ukrainian International Airlines is partly owned by the infamous Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, politician and energy tycoon Igor Kolomoisky, who was notably one of the biggest financiers of the anti-Russian, pro-EU coup d'etat which overthrew the democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014. Kolomoisky is also a principal backer of current Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky whose dubious phone call with Trump resulted in the 45th U.S. president's impeachment last month. In another astounding coincidence, Kolomoisky's Privat Group is believed to control Burisma Holdings, the Cypress-based company whose executive board 2020 presidential candidate Joe Biden's son Hunter was appointed to following the Maidan junta. The former Vice President admitted that he bribed Ukraine into firing its top prosecutor who was looking into his son's corruption by threatening to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees.

Kolomoisky, AKA "the Chameleon", is one of the wealthiest people in the ex-Soviet country and was formerly appointed as governor of an administrative region bordering Donbass in eastern Ukraine following the 2014 putsch. He has also funded a battalion of volunteer neo-Nazi mercenaries fighting alongside the Ukrainian army in the War in Donbass against Russian-speaking separatists which the military aid temporarily withheld by the Trump administration that was disputably contingent upon an investigation of Biden and his son goes to. In 2014, another infamous plane shootdown made international headlines when Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) scheduled from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 passengers and crew.

From the get-go, the Obama administration was adamant that the missile which shot down the Boeing 777 came from separatist rebel territory. However, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad denounced the charges brought against the Russian and Ukrainian nationals indicted in the NATO-led investigation, dismissing the entire probe as a politically motivated effort predetermined to scapegoat Moscow and exclude Malaysian participation in the inquiry from the very beginning. Mohamad is featured in the excellent documentary MH17: Call for Justice made by a team of independent journalists which contests the NATO-scripted narrative and reveals that the Buk missile was more likely launched from Ukrainian Army-controlled territory than the DPR. One of Kolomoisky's hired guns could also have been responsible.

Shamefully, Iran's admission of guilt in the PS752 downing is already being used by establishment propagandists to discredit skeptics and conflated with similar contested past events like MH17 in order to intimidate dissenting voices from speaking up in the future. The Bellingcat 'investigative journalism' collective which made its name incriminating Moscow for the MH17 tragedy are the principle offenders. Bellingcat bills itself as an 'independent' citizen journalism group even though its founder Eliot Higgins is employed by the Atlantic Council think tank which receives funding from NATO, the U.S. State Department, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), George Soros' Open Society Foundation NGO, and numerous other regime change factories. Despite its enormous conflict of interest, Bellingcat remains highly cited by corporate media as a supposedly reputable source. At the outset, nearly everything about the PS752 tragedy gave one déjà vu of the MH17 disaster, including the rush to judgement by Western governments, so it was only natural for many to distrust the official narrative until more facts came out.

None of this changes that the use of commercial passenger jets as false flag targets for U.S. national security subterfuge is a verifiable historical fact, not a 'conspiracy theory.' In 1997, the U.S. National Archives declassified a 1962 memo proposed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Department of Defense for then-Secretary of State Robert McNamara entitled " Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba ." The document outlined a series of 'false flag' terrorist attacks, codenamed Operation Northwoods, to be carried out on a range of targets and blamed on the Cuban government to give grounds for an invasion of Havana in order to depose Fidel Castro. These scenarios included targets within the U.S., in particular Miami, Florida, which had become a haven of right-wing émigrés and defectors following the Cuban Revolution. In addition to the sinking of a Cuban refugee boat, one Northwoods plan included the staging of attacks on a civilian jet airliner and a U.S. Air Force plane to be pinned on Castro's government:

"8. It is possible to create and incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack."

Although Operation Northwoods was rejected by then-U.S. President John F. Kennedy which many believe was a factor in his subsequent assassination, Cuban exiles with the support of U.S. intelligence would later be implicated in such an attack the following decade with the bombing of Cubana Airlines Flight 455 in 1976 which killed all 73 passengers and crew on board. In 2005, documents released by the National Security Archive showed that the CIA under then-director George H.W. Bush had advanced knowledge of the plans of a Dominican Republic-based Cuban exile terrorist organization, the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU), at the direction of former CIA operative Luis Posada Carriles to blow up the airliner. The U.S. later refused to extradite Carriles to Cuba to face charges and although he never admitted to masterminding the bombing of the jet, he publicly confessed to other attacks on tourist hotels in Cuba during the 1990s and was later arrested in 2000 for attempting to blow up an auditorium in Panama trying to assassinate Castro.

In 1962, the planners of Operation Northwoods concluded that such deceptive operations would shift U.S. public opinion unanimously against Cuba.

"World opinion and the United Nations forum should be favorably affected by developing the international image of Cuban government as rash and irresponsible, and as an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere."

The same talking points are used by the U.S. government to demonize Iran today. Initially, some Western intelligence sources also concluded that it was a malfunction or overheated engine that brought PS752 down in corroboration with the Iranian government's original explanation until the narrative abruptly shifted the following day. That they were so quick to hold Iran accountable without any investigation gave the apparent likelihood that PS752 could have fallen prey to a Northwoods-style false flag operation designed to further isolate Iran and defame its leaders after they took precautions to avoid U.S. casualties in their retaliatory strikes for the killing of Soleimani. Maintaining the image of Iran as a nefarious regime is crucial in justifying hawkish U.S. policies toward the country and Iran's noted restraint in its retaliation put a dent in that impression, so many were suspicious and rightly so.

It was also entirely plausible that U.S. special operations planners could have consulted the Northwoods playbook replacing Cuba with Iran and the right-wing gusanos who were to assist the staged attacks in Miami with the Iranian opposition group known as Mujahedin e-Khalq (MEK/People's Mujahedin of Iran) to do the same in Tehran. In July of last year, Trump's personal lawyer and former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani gave a paid speech at the cult-like group's compound in Albania where he not only referred to the group as Iran's "government-in-exile" but stated the U.S's explicit intentions to use them for regime change in Iran. The MEK enjoys high level contacts in the Trump administration and the group was elated at his decision to murder Soleimani in Baghdad.

From 1997 until 2012, the MEK was on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations until it was removed by the Obama administration after its expulsion from Iraq in order to relocate the group to fortified bases in Albania and the NATO protectorate of Kosovo. The latter disputed territory is a perfect fit for the rebranded group having been founded by another deregistered foreign terrorist organization, the al-Qaeda linked Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose leader, Hashim Thaçi, presides over the partially-recognized state. The MEK are no longer designated as such despite the State Department's own account of its bloody history:

"During the 1970s, the MEK staged terrorist attacks inside Iran to destabilize and embarrass the Shah's regime; the group killed several US military personnel and civilians working on defense projects in Tehran. The group also supported the takeover in 1979 of the US Embassy in Tehran. In April 1992 the MEK carried out attacks on Iranian embassies in 13 different countries, demonstrating the group's ability to mount large-scale operations overseas."

Declassified documents revealing the sinister plans in Operation Northwoods which shockingly made it all the way to the desk of the president of the United States and the foreknowledge of Cubana Airlines Flight 455 are just two examples of solid proof that false flag attacks against civilian passenger planes are a part of the Pentagon's modus operandi as disclosed in its own archives and there is no reason to believe that such practices have been discontinued. That the U.S. is still cozy with "former" terror groups like MEK seeking to repatriate is good reason to believe its use of militant exiles for covert operations like those from Havana has not been retired. If there were jumps to conclusions that proven serial liars could be looking for an excuse to stage an attack to lay the blame on Iran, it is only because the distinct probability was overwhelming. Even so, a stopped clock strikes the right time twice per day and that is all Iran's acknowledgment of its liability proves -- that even the world's most unreliable and criminal sources in Washington and Langley can be accurate sometimes


the grand wazoo , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 2:34 am GMT

What no one is mentioning is: the US airstrikes on Iraqi military bases, and Soleimani's murder contributed greatly to the hair trigger response of Iran's air defense forces. If Washington did not turn the heat up on both Iraq and Iran there would have been no need for Iran's retaliation, and thus the level of Iran's domestic defense forces would not have been so nervous as to pull the trigger downing the airliner.
But, if's a huge word.
Flint Clint , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 5:41 am GMT
I disagree.

https://m.jpost.com/Defense/WikiLeaks-Russia-gave-Israel-Iranian-codes

Israel has had control of Iran's Russian middle systems for years. Russia gave them the codes.

I think Israel blew up the aircraft. I can't find a link but I heard a huge number of Soleimani loyalists were arrested in Iran. Someone should have a link to that from Twitter or somewhere.

I think that there was some kind of collaboration between Khamenei, Israel and the US to remove Soleimani who had designs on a coup.

I don't know if this is a good or bad thing.

I also don't know who was on that plane. So it's unclear if it was good or bad it was destroyed. Who knows who those 176 dual Iranian Nationals were.

I just know that if Israel had control of those missile units and it would embarrass Iran for that to be revealed it makes sense for Iran to claim the lesser of two deep shames.

Particularly if there has been some kind of tacit acceptance of a status as a vassal state to either the US or Israel behind the scenes to preserve the regime.

Perhaps the MEK or a different vassal ruler who is really crypto Jewish will be appointed in Solemeinis place, and Iran will hence offer a symbolic enemy to justify the continuation of the military industrial complex in both Israel and the US.

Just one feasible theory.

Ilya G Poimandres , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 6:46 am GMT
Even a blind squirrel, even a broken clock twice a day.. The Empire's statements and blind accusations could have been for any tragedy in a country they were psyopsing, only a matter of chance for them to be right at some time. In any case, it wasn't intentional on Iran's part.
nmb , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 7:27 am GMT
Former CIA high-ranking official accidentally reveals the type of the false flag operation that the US imperialists will orchestrate to start a war with Iran
https://failedevolution.blogspot.com/2020/01/former-cia-high-ranking-official.html
Lol just lol , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 8:09 am GMT
"Accidental" lol

Only if accidental means a joint Russian/Iranian hit on a Ukrainian plane carrying fleeing cia/mossad agents.

This whole situation has once again displayed how easy it is for the zio-media to control what we see and hear and believe. Disturbingly, that means that things like metoo and "believe all women" are operations too.

We are f*cked no matter what.

Crazy Horse , says: Website Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 8:56 am GMT
@the grand wazoo I wouldn't be surprised it the FDR shows that the plane strayed off its registered Flightpath and was involved in a covert recon mission that went bad.
Antares , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 9:15 am GMT
It reminds me too much of MH-17, which was not hit with a BUK but with bullets. Iran should have closed its airspace because such tricks are to be expected, irrespective of the cause of the current accident. There is no immediate reason for Iranians to fly to Ukraine, or anywhere else. It may sound silly but flying is still a special and dangerous thing and should not be taken for granted.

For someone who doesn't watch television or read Iranian newspapers it was only reported on Twitter and then repeated by PressTV and others on internet. Which parts of the story are real?

Alfred , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 9:30 am GMT
Of course, it was a huge and most regrettable mistake. Doubtless, the Iranians will compensate the victims for what that is worth. Most of the passengers were Iranians. I suspect that many of the "Canadians" Trudeau is on about are of Iranian descent. They would certainly be considered to be Iranians in Iran.

The series of coincidences highlighted in this article are remarkable. It has synchronicity splashed all over it.

I worked at Tehran airport for some years prior to the Revolution. After the Revolution, I volunteered to return on behalf of Raytheon (of all companies) to get some money owing. No one else was prepared to go there. Iran Air personnel were delighted to meet me again and they promptly paid the bill. I took a holiday to the Caspian with my ex-girlfriend.

A further piece of synchronicity is that I am currently visiting Kiev. The world is a truly incestuous place.

... ... ...

Wizard of Oz , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 10:15 am GMT
@the grand wazoo "What no one is mentioning ."??? Really? That's almost exactly what some Iranian spokesmen have been saying.
Wizard of Oz , says: Show Comment January 12, 2020 at 10:29 am GMT
Set aside the beatup of two operations that neither the CIA or any American agency carried out the author has apparently failed to see the obvious. That is that the Iranians had no possibility of covering up the missile strike. Or did he imagine that everyone who might tell the truth could be kept permanently separated from plane parts and bodies which would have shown unmistakeable and undeniable evidences of the strike.

[Jan 12, 2020] Boeing Uninterruptible Auto Pilot

Jan 12, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Norwegian , Jan 11 2020 19:33 utc | 245

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 18:56 utc | 232
Speculation. US cyber or EW warfare cut the coms and Boeing or more likely US operatives cut one engine via the datalink to Boeing.

Following this line of speculation, it is hard to not consider the BUAP - Boeing Uninterruptible Auto Pilot: Boeing wins patent on uninterruptible autopilot system
Boeing's is, of course, not the first autopilot technology in existence, but this one has been designed with counterterrorism first and foremost in mind. Not only is it "uninterruptible" -- so that even a tortured pilot cannot turn it off -- but it can be activated remotely via radio or satellite by government agencies.

[Jan 12, 2020] It's clear that when we ask the question "Who benefits greatly from this event", we are forced to say the US

Jan 12, 2020 | smoothiex12.blogspot.com

[Jan 12, 2020] Blunders are inherent to military operations in wartime, peacetime often enough too, But why Iran did not close its airspace remains a puzzle. Did Iranians walked into a trap?

Jan 12, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Daniel N. White , Jan 12 2020 3:37 utc | 365

Yeah, an airliner shootdown because the (tired, stressed, undertrained) SAM operators fucked up. Fuckups are inherent to military operations in wartime, peacetime often enough too, and the time of this accident was both combined, and that certainly made it likelier to happen, too, dammit.

I am pleased to see Iran assume responsibility, promptly enough I reckon, for the shootdown. I trust it will be writing suitable sized checks to the heirs, and one to the Ukrainian airline too. About all that can be done; something that needs doing for everyone's sake.

Iran's assuming responsibility for its shootdown of a civilian airliner by accident contrasts to ours'.* The USA still is dodging its responsibility for the 1980 Itavia DC-9 shootdown. Most nobody in the USA knows about that incident, but I am told it remains an ongoing sore/issue in Italy/Italian politics. My piece from years ago is here: https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/12/21/jimmy-carter-in-austin/ . Since writing this, I wrote Mr. Carter via the Carter Library and via his church in Plains, GA, but never heard back. Unpleasant conclusions about Mr. Carter's integrity must be drawn from this. And similar conclusions about the USA's, and its people's.

My condolences to the families.

Daniel N. White

*Yeah, and the French Navy and nation, too. Apparently back in '68 the French Navy inadvertently shot down an Air France Caravelle over the Med. Immediate hiding of information and physical evidence started and continues to this day. [Did you think I'd pass up this opportunity to kick the French?]


Jackrabbit , Jan 12 2020 4:21 utc | 369

IRGC Commander uses a graphic to show where PS732 was struck by a missile.

FlightRadar24.com shows PS732's flight path - presumably using all data to the point where the data was interrupted by some event on board.

When I compare these, it appears that the IRGC estimate of where the missile hit is WELL AFTER transmission of flight data has ended.

Also, logically, a plane climbing a short distance from an airport should not resemble a drone. Might an operator assume a drone if the plane were DESCENDING?

Thus, there's the possibility of a scenario where a bomb under the cockpit causes the plane to start descending and the IRGC fire a missile as a because the plane's descent causes the operator to surmise that it is a drone instead of a plane.

Might there have been a bomb AND missile hit?

Note: This possibility arises only because of what seems to be a mismatch in the data from the airplane and the IRGC's estimate of where the plane was hit. Perhaps IRGC's graphic is incorrect?

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Aside: AFAICT the plane wasn't turning back to the airport ! It was on a normal flight path which turned slightly but that turning was apparently exacerbated after the plane was hit. That increased turning made it SEEM like it was turning back to the airport.

!!

Fog of War , Jan 12 2020 5:08 utc | 375
Many of you still seemed perplexed as to why Iran allowed commercial flights to go on during such a potentially tense time. Let me make it clear for everyone, they were tricked by the ZioAmericans. Basically, the Iranians were allowed to get their " face saving attack " on the Americans while thinking this would be the end of the whole episode. Little did they suspect that the US had prepared the Ukrainian plane scenario followed by instantaneous protests. The Iranians walked into a trap.


- Swiss Back Channel Helped Defuse U.S.-Iran Crisis -
The U.S. sent an encrypted fax via the Swiss Embassy in Tehran urging Iran not to escalate, followed by a flurry of back and forth messages -

https://www.wsj.com/articles/swiss-back-channel-helped-defuse-u-s-iran-crisis-11578702290

CognitiveDissonance , Jan 12 2020 5:13 utc | 377
@Vasco da Gama
Regarding the FAA NOTAMS restricting airspace a list is provided here. It is not accurate to claim only Tehran was restricted:

Exactly. And if the Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority had followed the FAA lead and grounded its aircraft in Iran , the Ukraine Air aircraft would not have gotten shot down .

The Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority didn't exactly perform well either.

Jackrabbit , Jan 12 2020 5:21 utc | 378
Fog of War @374: The Iranians walked into a trap.

That seems very possible. And, if so, the people on PS732 were sacrificed for the ambitions of AZ Empire asshats.

!!

CognitiveDissonance , Jan 12 2020 5:25 utc | 379
@Fog Of War
Many of you still seemed perplexed as to why Iran allowed commercial flights to go on during such a potentially tense time. Let me make it clear for everyone, they were tricked by the ZioAmericans.

A more plausible reason is here . The relevant except follows:

"The first thing a country should do in case of escalation of the military conflict is to close the sky for civilian flights," said retired Ukrainian Gen. Ihor Romanenko, a military analyst. " But this entails serious financial losses , fines and forfeits, therefore a cynical approach prevailed in Iran."

CognitiveDissonance , Jan 12 2020 5:25 utc | 379 Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 5:52 utc | 380
Jackrabbit 368 "Aside: AFAICT the plane wasn't turning back to the airport! It was on a normal flight path which turned slightly but that turning was apparently exacerbated after the plane was hit. That increased turning made it SEEM like it was turning back to the airport."

From the Ukraine description of the damage, the pilots would be unlikely to have any control over the plane even if they were not dead or incapacitated. From my understanding the aircraft was on its way back to the airport when it crashed.
Iran government was intitaly very sure the aircraft came down due to a tehnical problem which makes me think the pilots radioed in that they had a problem before they were hit. This is why I think the plane was hit after the turn back to the airport.
if they turn back to the the airport brought the plane to where it was facing the military site during the turn this may have caused the airdefence crew to fire. Already on high alert, their coms down and perhaps the planes transponder stops transmitting whould be more than enough suspition to down the aircraft.
A preplanned operation that cut air defence coms and disabled the aircraft (as in cut one engine plus transponder) at the same time.

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 6:03 utc | 381
In b's previous piece on the aircraft, b had this to say "The airplane climbed out of Tehran airport in a rather straight line. The teams that man the Tor systems around Tehran must be used to the regular radar track of civil planes coming out of Tehran airport. That makes an accidental launch somewhat unlikely."

This is still very relevent. Something about that flight was different causing the Tor crew to fire. A sudden turn back to the airport along with trasponder transmissions stopping and air defence comms down would cause this.

Australian lady , Jan 12 2020 7:23 utc | 382
The Iranian apologia is a masterclass in grace..
Unfortunately the courage to admit responsibility is not understood as a civilised response, but that is what one expects from barbarians.
Iran has admitted that it shot down the plane. Perhaps that was the intention of this tragedy.
Do you remember how it was in Tehran in the election year of 2008?
Luce Ducet of the BBC was on the streets spruiking for the Iranian "colour revolution". But Amadenijad won regardless.
They are trying it again but it won't work. Never does.
However there will be chaos and that has proven to be tremendously profitable.
Krollchem , Jan 12 2020 7:26 utc | 383
DontBelieveEitherPr.@214 ( and other recent trolls)

Please do us a favor by helping with the following issues:

(1) list all countries invaded by the US compared to Iran. Each instance of an invasion of a given country is required as some countries were invaded several times;

(2) In the last 200 years list all countries overthrown by a coup by the US and its proxy's compared to Iran;

After failing in this simple task go back commenting somewhere else...

Steve M , Jan 12 2020 7:47 utc | 384
There are still a couple of things that bother me about this.

1.) is that for those of you who are saying it would be hard to distinguish an incoming enemy plane from a commercial airliner such as Pometheus @ 178 who said:

6) A RADAR signature CANNOT distinguish a commercial airline aircraft from a military aircraft - especially since some military aircraft use 737 airframes.

would that also apply to a cruise missile? That is, would it also be difficult to distinguish between a commercial airliner and a cruise missile? Because, from what I've seen, that's the claim that's being made -- that the SAM operator responsible for launching the missile against the airliner was on high alert due to warnings of possible cruise missile launches against Iran and that he mistook the target for a cruise missile -- or at least suspected that it was -- which, according to the narrative, is why he only had a 10-second window within which to make the decision to launch and why when there were "communication problems" that prevented him from getting a hold of his superiors, he had to basically flip a coin -- and unfortunately made the wrong choice. Now, I don't know if this narrative is still current, because what I read did say this account was an "early assessment", but if it is, if it's still what they're saying -- is it plausible? is what I'm asking. Or would this represent a hole in their narrative? Maybe someone on here could clarify this for me? Possibly Prometheus?

The other thing that bugs me, is who took the footage of the plane actually being hit? How did he know to train his camera in that direction at that particular place and time? Is it somebody who just hangs around and films planes that happen to be passing by? Or is it some camera that is maybe in a fixed position, like a security camera, that just happened to pick this up? (and actually, I have to say, it doesn't look like security camera footage to me) Or what? Because it is conceivable that this could indicate foreknowledge... which, of course, would indicate a planned event as opposed to an accident. Maybe someone could shed light on this for me as well?

But because of my lingering doubts I have also entertained the possibility raised by paul @ 188 that the Iranians may be lying about this in order to prevent (what would be certain) further escalation. What better way to defuse the situation than by claiming it was all just an unfortunate accident? (I guess what I have in mind is that it could have conceivably been an MEK, CIA, Mossad operation timed to eclipse the Soleimani and al-Muhandis murder stories and also further their campaign of escalation against Iran.)

Of course, I'm not maintaining that it's the case, necessarily. But the possibility did cross my mind even before I came across paul @ 188's comment. And there are some obvious problems with this narrative as well... which I probably don't need to go into here. But whatever the case may be, I'd still like an answer to the misgivings I raised above... if someone could shed light on them, I'd appreciate it.

Norwegian , Jan 12 2020 7:51 utc | 385
Speculation: The cases with planes turned into weapons all seem to be Boeings and not Airbuses if I am not mistaken, 4 Boeings @ 911 plus this one (PS752). You could argue that MH370 (vanished) and MH17 (altered flight path) possibly also fall into this category, they were Boeing planes. So a guess is that the Boeing Uninterruptible Auto Pilot (BUAP) plays a role in some or all of these cases, and possibly other ones as well.

If BUAP was used to disable the PS752 pilots + all communication and then switch off one engine during full throttle take-off, what does that do to the flight path? Perhaps an interesting flight simulator exercise, but it would obviously turn. As others have pointed out, a civilian plane does not have IFF and will therefore be identified as hostile when it suddenly appears in front of a Tor-M1 battery because it was made to turn.

A detailed time-line would be useful, i.e. times for take-off, communication loss, when the plane started turning, missile launch, missile hit, final crash. It could possibly narrow the field of possibilities.

Vintage Red , Jan 12 2020 8:08 utc | 386
@somebody, 79

"I don't think it is beyond the US to have used the opportunity to test Iranian radars."

Remember the Soviet downing of Flight KAL 007 back in September '83. The fear of WW3 then was just as real as what we experienced last week. The US purposefully confused KAL 007's identity by flying RC-135 reconnaissance flights near it before its reaching Soviet airspace (both are Boeing, easy to mistake for each other). Some have mentioned that the pilot was Korean CIA. Either way the US got invaluable data on Soviet air defenses by its incursion near Vladivostok, and the USSR was attacked by the capitalist media afterward just as Iran is now.

Whether via hacking or sabotage of the plane, transponder or IFF (e.g., as Peter AU1 outlines @232) or something else entirely, this kind of action or outright weaponization of Ukrainian flight PS 752 is a possibility here as well.

ps -- massive thanks to bevin for very powerful comments @30 and @242.

imo , Jan 12 2020 8:38 utc | 388
@ Norwegian | Jan 12 2020 7:51 utc | 382

Indeed it is speculation but that sometimes has its place to help break up the mass-programming going on.

Remote drone control and flight by instruments are very close in technologies and one could easily imagine
the inbuilt functions and back-doors provided in modern aircraft -- especially Boeing variants for the obvious reasons.
Full-spectrum dominance (control when needed) has a meaning.

The IT technology for running total virtual computing systems were in commercial use in the 1970s.
[e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)]
Today's modern commercial aircraft are almost entirely software driven and therefore simply another virtual
machine. Flight simulators clearly operate on this principle.

I would suggest that MH370 night flight was more likely the class case study with a tribe of top Chinese technologists being
re-routed on a flight out of Malaysia to "Paradise Island" (Diego Garcia) before the plane was either ditched into the Indian
Ocean or re-cycled as a convenient relabeled option etc. In fact, from memory there were several interesting scenarios around
MH17 that included cadavers and other features. I'm not sure where these ended up in the wash.

The point being that unless there is something out the window in the real world to verify against (like position of sun etc)
then I'm sure for military purposes a large airliner could be totally enclosed in a virtual world simulation from the crew and
passenger perspective -- and quite possibly also satellite tracking for engine monitoring by suppliers.

Before MH370 and MH17 Malaysia was being rather difficult and independent (and critical of the Occupation of Palestine).
Apart from the geopolitical impacts, just the subsequent commercial impact on Malaysian Airlines brought a rather
sudden silence, compliance and silence from the Malaysian quarter. And here we are again, perhaps, simply a new cast of
actors as victims etc.

E Mo Scel , Jan 12 2020 9:11 utc | 391
It is correct that the FAA ban relates to the region and not just Tehran (FIR Tehran). I had checked that after my comment. It is still pointing to the fact that, as confirmed by statements by Iran, that there was a lot of movement in the airspace around Iran and possibly in Iran, and that civilian planes could be affected by misidentification - just the way it happened, but with almost 150 Iranians on board of the plane (some with dual citizenships). In my view, it is not feasible to assume the US did not respond to the Iranian strikes. The US hit hard and fast, just as Trump had said. The US outmaneuvered Iran from an angle they were not prepared for, right inside Iran, right in Tehran. The US come out of this clean. The lack of an overt response to the Iranian strikes can't be emphasized enough; same goes for the involvement of the CIA with Pompeo and Haspel.
uncle tungsten , Jan 12 2020 9:14 utc | 392
ADKC #342
Iran has been seduced by Trump and the illusory promise of symbolic actions/theatre. Iran has lost the phony war because it failed to see the US is not just a unwelcome visitor that will leave the Middle East when they are made to feel uncomfortable. The US cannot leave the Middle East because it would destroy itself if it did so.

I don't agree with your first proposition. I don't even think it is possible for Iran to have any illusions as to what they are up against militarily or the idiocy and malevolence of the USA. They are also aware of the near term chance to fracture the continuity of Trump as President and hope for a better or vaguely smarter person. If there is symbolism, then the Iranians made it clear 'this is a slap in the face'. That means an initial gesture of displeasure or challenge to a duel perhaps. It is not the revenge the Iranians have promised to extract from the occupying forces of the five eyes plus NATO plus Saudi sponsored ISIS. I anticipate there will soon be stage two of the vengeance extraction.

The USA will leave the Middle East either in tatters or with a smart withdrawal. The battlefield has just enlarged and entered new and murderous dimensions (thanks mainly to the assassination strategy of the USA) much as it did in Vietnam after the French were slaughtered at Dien Bien Phu. This will take some time to play out and there may be no victor but there will be a withdrawal of the USA.

You say the USA cannot withdraw due to its dependence on petrodollar cover of its currency. I say it has very little choice. The entire Shia and even perhaps some mighty angry Sunni are keen to kick the USA cadaver about the public square.

Osama Bin Laden was Sunni!! The forces of the USA are diustributed throughout the Sunni lands at their invitation ;- the USA occupies Sunni holy lands: this from NEO-

As of now, the US has 5,000 troops in the UAE; 7,000 in Bahrain; above 13,000 in Kuwait; 3,00o in Jordan; 3,000 in Saudi Arabia; 10,000 in Qatar; 5,000 in Iraq; around 1,000 in Syria -- all of course well within the range of Iranian missiles, making them an extremely attractive targets for the Iranian forces.

Only in Iraq, about 5,000 US troops could very well be sitting ducks if the Popular Mobilisation Forces were to launch a war of attrition. If history is any guide to future, it might be unrealistic to completely rule out a replay of the 1983 Beirut barracks bombings

The USA can huff and puff as much as it likes but I suspect they will be displeased and shaken shitless if a couple of the vessels docked in Bahrain only a few kilometers from Iran suddenly are sitting on the seabed.

What is revenge ADKC? What if the new leader of Oman is persuaded to end the invasion of Yemen? This could leave the USA badly shaken. There is no certainty that the long war of revenge will produce good results for Iran but any other course would be craven surrender to both the USA and its Sunni running dogs and the Israeli paper tiger.

John Doe , Jan 12 2020 9:20 utc | 393
The Prime Suspect in Ukrainian PS752 Shootdown: Israel's Unit 8200
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/10/ps752/
Wtf , Jan 12 2020 9:23 utc | 394
How can you mistake a 737 for a cruise missile with and F band 3D doppler radar. The 737 has the signature of a friggin freight Train!
John Doe , Jan 12 2020 9:32 utc | 395
A shadowy tech firm with deep ties to Israeli intelligence and newly inked contracts to protect Pentagon computers is partnering with Lockheed Martin to gain unprecedented access to the heart of America's democracy.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/cybereason-israel-tech-firm-doomsday-election-simulations/263886/

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 9:37 utc | 396
Wtf 391

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/computers/article/16726118/navy-continues-buying-radarspoofing-electronic-warfare-ew-equipment-from-mercury-systems
"Navy continues buying radar-spoofing electronic warfare (EW) equipment from Mercury Systems.
U.S. Navy airborne electronic warfare (EW) experts are continuing their support of radar-spoofing electronic warfare (EW)
technology from Mercury Systems Inc. that can fool enemy radar systems with false and deceptively moving targets."

At the time, Iran had many reports of incoming cruise missiles. By the sounds, US was hitting Iran with radar spoofing EW systems.

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 10:02 utc | 399
Norwegian

There is the possibility of the uninterruptible auto pilot. It does exist but information on if
it is installed in many Boeing planes is vague. Others here have mentioned the number of incidents
Boeing aircraft have been involved in. I had thought of MH17 and MH370 but there is also 9 11 and
the Korean flight into soviet airspace. Many of the boeing aircraft are mechanical with hydraulic
assist controls so it would require something like the uninterruptible auto pilot to completely
take over the plane from the ground.
The Ukrainian NG has the mechanical controls, but its engines are computer controlled as are some other
functions in the aircraft plus I believe the aircraft has an automated data link back to boeing. This may
well have been sufficient for Boeing to turn of the Transponder and cut an engine so the plane would turn
towards the military site. This would be more than sufficient to ensure the downing of the aircraft under
the circumstances.
With an engine down the pilot would have immediately notified air traffic control and say he was turning back.
This would also explain why the Iranian government were initially certain the crash was due to technical issues.

somebody , Jan 12 2020 10:35 utc | 400
Posted by: E Mo Scel | Jan 12 2020 9:11 utc | 388

In my view, it is not feasible to assume the US did not respond to the Iranian strikes. The US hit hard and fast, just as Trump had said.

This is my sneaking suspicion. The way the news of this night were reported were 1. Iranian strike 2. Plane downed 3. 4.9 earthquake near Bushehr.

Epoch times - Falun Gong - even makes more of a connection

Israel wants the US to take out any Iranian nuclear programme. The escalation needed for such a hit was the only way to do that for Trump. Congress would never approve.

My guess is that Bushehr strikes failed to make an impression whatever they were intended to hit, so it is back to regime change.

Hausmeister , Jan 12 2020 10:45 utc | 402
If it could ever be proven that Boeing planes are being used as RC weaponized drones, the fallout would be epic.

Posted by: Sorghum | Jan 11 2020 23:18 utc | 312

No. It is enough to prove than one can switch off the transponder from a remote place. I have told in case you fly some aircraft over Germany and switch off the transponder it would take 2 minutes till you accompanied by a fighter jet.

Mao , Jan 12 2020 11:19 utc | 407
Boeing's "uninterruptible" autopilot "would be activated ... remotely via radio or satellite links by government agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency."

https://www.flightglobal.com/diagrams-boeing-patents-anti-terrorism-auto-land-system-for-hijacked-airliners/70886.article

https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/08/07/flight-control-boeings-uninterruptible-autopilot-system-drones-remote-hijacking/

Pft , Jan 12 2020 11:42 utc | 408
Not sure how long this lasts before someone messes it up with a mile long link. Why b does not delete comments that disrupt the formatting is a good question.

In any event Iran played right into the US -Israeli hands. They should not have responded. I said at the outset they would be smart not to. They simply should have followed protocol under international law (feeble and futile as it would be). They accomplished nothing with their missiles and showed weakness (30% missed or were duds) If they felt the need to retaliate it should have been a covert op that provided plausible deniability.

I'm still baffled at the airline shoot down. Radar should have shown that the Boeing 737 was on a commonly used flight path heading away from the airport -- if it was inbound into the country it would be easier to explain misidentification . The Boeing 737 should have been transmitting a transponder identification code. If the equipment that picks that up, called an IFF interrogator, was malfunctioning, battery operators would have considered the path and speed of the plane on radar. The Flight was rising toward 8,000 feet at a leisurely 275 knots when flight tracking data from its transponder cut out, a normal profile for an airliner. So it is departing the area, climbing through medium altitude, not trying to hide its signature, looking like a routine operation and its shot down?

I'd say if they shot this plane down they are a mess and that perhaps there are some disloyal elements within the military who might want change and seized the opportunity to make them look bad. Sanctions take a toll on moral and support of the people. Thats the intention. Maybe its working.

I am sure the US and Israel will be ready to jump in and help restore peace and help with reconstruction after the coming revolution. That wont be cheap so we (they) will have to get 50% of the oil/gas, and maybe a Trump Tower in Tehran (after he leaves office).

ADKC , Jan 12 2020 11:51 utc | 409
Uncle Tunsten @392

The Iranian "slap in The face" was effectively arranged with the US. What does that mean?

The assassination of Soliemani was not a stupid irrational act - it was a warning to Iran, Iraq and Iran that there will be no rapproachment. What does that mean for the likelihood of Oman taking a stand against US interests?

You dismiss the petrodollar as it if has no real bearing, but it is everything - without the petrodollar the US crumbles. And, what you also fail to realise is that the US cannot extract itself from the petrodollar therefore it US trapped and compelled to to do anything it can to defend the petrodollar.

irate , Jan 12 2020 11:59 utc | 410
The MEK is the group Trump wants to replace the Iran regime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIChqqSgzo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Mujahedin_of_Iran

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 12:05 utc | 411
Mao the uninterruptible auto pilot in the 21stcenturywire article is for fly by wire aircraft. Airbus are fly by wire as are some boeing models, but the 737s, apart from engine controls are not. 737 Max has fly by wire spoilers. On a fly by wire all that is required is to override or replace pilot input signals into the computer to take control of the flight controls.
The article speaks of embedded software being the uninterruptible auto pilot.
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:10 utc | 412
Nobody is asking questions why didn't Iran close down their airspace if they were expecting retaliation, perhaps because they needed a human shield in case Americans attacked? And they were expecting retaliation that is what the IRGC said.
pretzelattack , Jan 12 2020 12:11 utc | 413
i'm still not sure if some kind of hacking or cyberattack messed up the ability of iranian defense to respond to the plane. at any rate, the ultimate responsibility lies with the u.s. and israel who want regime change in iran and have tried to achieve that for decades.
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:14 utc | 414
@pretzelattack Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the Islamic Revolution. Most likely Iranian defenses got hacked, their communications lines were down, but that does not excuse them for not closing the airspace (perhaps they needed a human shield in case Americans attacked).
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:23 utc | 415
People here writing stuff as if Iran and Russia are like ww2 allies. No they are not, even Putin said Russia is never going to allied herself with 1 country against another country in the middle east, that means Putin's Russia is seeking equilibrium in the middle east. It explains why Russia hesitated (after selling) to deliver the S-300 as agreed to Iran, while willing to sell S-400 to Iraq. That is because Russia wants the whole Middle East to be able to defend themselves against USA/Zionists and against each other -- that is equilibrium.
Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 12:29 utc | 416
dave
Iran's S-300s were delivered and deployed some time ago.
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2016-11/news-briefs/russia-completes-s-300-delivery-iran

https://auroraintel.net/middle-east/iranian-s-300-locations

pretzelattack , Jan 12 2020 12:29 utc | 417
they could have just screwed up, too, dave. that happens in war. that doesn't put them on some kind of equal footing with the u.s. and israel. iran hasn't attacked any other countries that i know of, what have they done exactly to topple other governments anywhere?
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:30 utc | 418
@Peter The S-300 has been delivered after a long long long delay (years) after payment. Iran was very very upset and angry about this..
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:35 utc | 419
@pretzelattack On what planet have you been living? Iran has been trying to export their Islamic revolution throughout the region and elsewhere where there are muslims ever since 1979. Iran has a neo-con and a conservative faction. The neo-cons are radicals who are seeking worldwide Islamic Revolution, the conservatives want to keep their revolution within their own borders, it is like Stalin vs Trotsky, Stalin wanted communism in 1 country, Trotsky wanted world wide revolution.
Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 12:37 utc | 420
dave
You have just been spreading shit that it was never delivered. Upgraded S-300 systems were delivered to Iran as soon as UNSC nuclear related sanctions were lifted.
pretzelattack , Jan 12 2020 12:37 utc | 421
again, dave, do you have any specifics? what governments has iran tried to topple, and how?
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:40 utc | 422
@pretzelattack No they haven't screwed up, they (Iranian government) denied IRQGC's request to close down the airspace. Same thing as with Ukraine, Ukraine did not close down their airspace while they knew beforehand (as has been proven by news articles before the MH17 shootdown) there was a BUK in hands of rebels (if that news is true), the rebels were also actively shooting down military jets with manpads. Yet the Ukraine did not close down the airspace, they were using the airliners as human shield as has been proven by the fact their jets were shadowing the airliners.
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:41 utc | 423
correction IRQGC --> IRGC
Russ , Jan 12 2020 12:45 utc | 424
dave 414

"Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the Islamic Revolution."

1. Which governments was Iran at odds with other than Western colonial stooges working for Western imperial goals? Which leads to:

2. Any attempted "export" by Iran has been clear-cut self defense against relentlessly aggressive Western exportation of imperial globalized capitalism. It's even more clear-cut one-way US/Western aggression than in the case of the Cold War. Iran's 20th century experiences with Western aggression in all forms is far more than enough to justify anything they have done in response, which in any event has been relatively very modest.

415

"People here writing stuff as if Iran and Russia are like ww2 allies."

They may not be natural "allies", but they've long had a shared enemy in Western imperialism in the Mideast. They still have that shared interest, which is becoming increasingly existential whether Putin or the Iranians want to admit that to themselves or not. I know this berserker US government. It ain't going home willingly. It's not going to go gentle into that goodnight.

pretzelattack , Jan 12 2020 12:47 utc | 425
dave, i didn't say anything about closing down the airspace, although that could be another screwup; i was talking about shooting down the plane. but since you bring it up, do you have any evidence they were using planes as human shields, or any evidence about how the airspace was not closed in the first place? still waiting on the questions of what governments iran has tried to overthrow and how.
Kadath , Jan 12 2020 12:50 utc | 426
This is infuriating i just receieved an emergency alert regarding the picker nuclear power plant telling me to watch local media yet cbc news still has no information what happend in pickering its still wall to wall coverage of ithe iran air crash disaster
dave , Jan 12 2020 12:50 utc | 427
@pretzelattack Though nothing compared to what the Americans have been doing, they were spreading their Islamic ideology throughout the region ever since the Islamic revolution of 1979, by exporting the concept of suicide bombings to the Palestinian areas (Hamas, Islamic Jihad), their involvement with Yemen where houthi are trying to overthrow their government, they have been involved in Bosnia. The middle east has seen a Islamic revival thanks to the Iranians and the Americans who needed an Islamic block against secular and socialist block of the 3rd world and 2nd world.
Laguerre , Jan 12 2020 12:55 utc | 428
dave 414

"Iran also wanted regime change in the region through their export of the Islamic Revolution."

There wasn't any export that I was aware of. And certainly not regime change. The only question was the Shi'a of Iraq, and Sistani rejected the Iranian model of vilayat-i faqih.

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 12:57 utc | 429
Kadath

https://sputniknews.com/world/202001121078015363-incident-reported-at-canadas-pickering-nuclear-power-plant/
The alert, issued at 7:20 am Sunday, assured Ontarians that "there has been NO abnormal release of radioactivity from the station and emergency staff are responding to the situation."
The bulletin also indicated that people nearby "do not need to take protective actions at this time."

dave , Jan 12 2020 13:01 utc | 430
@pretzelattack not closing down airspace while IRGC has asked for it because of possible retaliation, that to me sounds like their politicians wanted victims at the hands of the Americans in front of the world (for propaganda purposes). That is the same as in Sarajevo where Bosnian Muslim government forces placed heavy weaponry in the middle of the heavily populated city targeting Serb villages/positions around the city. That is classic human shield against enemy retaliation, also good for propaganda purposes and world opinion in case the enemy retaliates and creates casualties among civilians. UNPROFOR commander got really angry at the Bosnian forces and demanded withdrawal of the heavy weaponry from the heavily populated area, the UNPROFOR commander even threatened to bomb Bosnian Muslim positions because of this provocation by the Bosnian Muslim government forces.
pretzelattack , Jan 12 2020 13:05 utc | 431
the yemenis are being slaughtered by the saudis, i don't see the iran aid as regime change. and the u.s. had a secular block against the socialist world in saddam till they threw him under the bus. i'm not sure who came up with the idea of suicide bombing, but i don't associate it specifically with iran. it's just another tactic, no more objectionable than pushing typing something on a keyboard half a world away and blowing somebody up by drone, and i don't see how it relates specifically to iran trying to overthrow other governments. i don't support iran's theocratic leanings, but my impression is that prior to the u.s. and u.k. deposing mossaddegh iran was more of an inward looking country.
Russ , Jan 12 2020 13:06 utc | 432
Posted by: dave | Jan 12 2020 12:50 utc | 427

"The middle east has seen a Islamic revival thanks to the Iranians and the Americans who needed an Islamic block against secular and socialist block of the 3rd world and 2nd world."

Yes indeed, the Arabs and the Mideast in general originally wanted to go the route of secular nationalism and only turned to a more religious-oriented movement when the West made nationalist progress impossible. Islamic radicalism wasn't their first choice. From what I've read it sounds like Sayyid Qutb originally had less of an audience than my obscure blog. But they came to realize it was their only effective option.

That, too, is 100% on the West. All fundamentalisms are modern movements of reaction against the aggression of other movements within modernity, most obviously Western cultural, economic, military imperialism.

Russ , Jan 12 2020 13:11 utc | 433
dave 430

The US drove the Yugoslav firestorm by unilaterally recognizing Bosnian independence while the UN was still trying to work out a negotiated settlement. The US egged them on by implying or promising military support. The Bosnians were more like pawns and at any rate certainly were not Iranian proxies acting in accord with what you allege with zero evidence to be Iran's aggressive Islamist plan for world domination.

imo , Jan 12 2020 13:12 utc | 434
@ Pft | Jan 12 2020 11:42 utc | 408

"I'm still baffled at the airline shoot down. Radar should have shown that the Boeing 737 was on a commonly used flight path heading away from the airport -- if it was inbound into the country it would be easier to explain misidentification."

Look, I'm not in any position to say what did (or did not) happen. And neither is anyone else outside a very small covert closed group -- and that probably includes the Iranians with their (allegedly) modern rocket technology and somewhat 19th century thinking and governance systems.

What I do assume is: any technology that the public finds on the magazine/website du jour is already out dated by at least one cycle and probably edging into the release for commercial market phase.

In a previous post I suggested that any virtual software computer system (of which modern jet airliners are mostly -- with a bit of flying hardware attached) can be, in theory, easily separated out into an onion-layered virtual operating system environment which, for all intents and purposes, provides 100% of the simulated environment data/parameters between the layers and applications. The cybernetic world has run on this in the business world since the late 20th century. I doubt the military are in catch-up mode -- quite the opposite, I'd assume.

How do you or I know that what the Iranian 'saw,' or more importantly, thought they saw in that 10 second 'engineered' gap?

One does not need to go full-spectrum Matrix or SkyNet thinking (just yet) to see where this is headed. But I raise an eyebrow at any narrow thinking precluding advanced AI scenarios that synthesis real-world and psychological-world vectors to exploit and manipulate the situation in focus towards desirable outcomes.

Knowing the Iranian character and worldview, and the religious top-down control culture and systems of command (and their weaknesses), allows for strategic modelling of scenarios that, if not directly controlled and created in the virtual 'digital' software world -- probably a few years off yet except in niche environments (hello major MIC supplier Boeing!) -- then at least in terms of statistical 'swarms' of data that nudge the real world towards higher probability preferred scenario. Whether Bayesian statistics is relevant or not, there are advanced options to experiment with.

This cluster-fuck by the Iranian military, set off by an equivalent of 21st century "Archduke Franz Ferdinand" event is like watching (unfortunately, imo, and only because I believe a balanced multi-polar world is a safer scenario) a Mexican peasant running after his hat just blow off his head by a gust of wind. Comical if not so bloody dangerous for the global geopolitical and economic context.

NK is another case altogether. They have enough nuke or no-nuke (as does Israel apparently) binary options to be treated with some junk-yard guard dog 'respect'. But the romantic poets and intellectuals of Tehran (with their 4,000 years of increasingly irrelevant cultural history) are just being played with like a wounded mouse by a cat.

I had written off the USA in accord with the public narrative until this event. Now I've sat back and looked at it again and the pattern looks entirely different. Trump or not, this has coordinated psyops dimensions flashing red all over, imo.

If what I have set out here as a possible (plausible?) scenario is even anywhere near a reality then Iran (Mullah version) is on the edge of collapse. The people will rise up for any number of reasons -- but one critical emerging one will be simply utter frustration with trying to live and work in the modern global world with a state-based ideology suited for the Crusades of the Middle Ages. Why not just uniform up in 'British Red Coats' with a red cross labeled "shoot here!" across the heart? [*]

The last item of interest towards this view is the almost hysterical reaction by the US to Russia's S300/S400/S500... technology expanding into broader markets. I'd suggest, apart from being high-class radar and missile technology, it is also likely resistant to the digital manipulation risk that 'sees' a Boeing lilting sideways (and mapping mentally) as a cruise missile within a critical window of weakness etc. Perhaps one can see behind the Oz wizard curtain better?

----
[*] - Since 9/11 it has been clear to some in the systems/cybernetics fields that an emerging 'chaos' orientated global governance model was coming into play. The use of the periodic 'shock' is the key. Think defibrillation as the metaphor to keep a certain heart-beat rhythm going while chaos (systemic fibrillation) reigns -- and is even promoted in some contexts. The book to read on the theory is "Chaos: Making a New Science" by James Gleick (1987). He applies/explains the defibrillation principles. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos:_Making_a_New_Science )

dave , Jan 12 2020 13:17 utc | 435
USA has attacked secular Iraq, secular Lybia, they helped Al Qaeda and other Islamists in their battle against secular governments (Afghanistan), USA (democrats) are in bed with the Muslim Brotherhood, USA has helped the Muslim Brotherhood and instigated the revolution in overthrowing the secular/military government of Egypt. USA was involved with the Arab Spring which targeted secular governments.

Soviet Union and USA both supported Saddam's Iraq against Iran, then USA dumped Saddam starting in 1991.

The concept of suicide bombings comes from Iran, they were promoting and instigating suicide bombings against Israel. Sunni Islam never had a history of suicide bombings before. Al Qaeda took that concept of suicide bombings from Iran and got a CIA sponsor (in the afghanistan war). Iran also has a tradition of religious flagellation: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2507355/Slashing-chained-blades-bloodied-Muslims-including-young-boys-flagellate-themselves.html

Emily , Jan 12 2020 13:18 utc | 436
Dave 427

Seems to me you need to swot up on the Sunni and Shia.
When you find out the differences come back.
This for instance...
Craig Murray 4th Jan
Quote
The truth of the matter is that if you take every American killed including and since 9/11, in the resultant Middle East related wars, conflicts and terrorist acts, well over 90% of them have been killed by Sunni Muslims financed and supported out of Saudi Arabia and its gulf satellites, and less than 10% of those Americans have been killed by Shia Muslims tied to Iran.
This is a horribly inconvenient fact for US administrations which, regardless of party, are beholden to Saudi Arabia and its money. It is, the USA affirms, the Sunnis who are the allies and the Shias who are the enemy. Yet every journalist or aid worker hostage who has been horribly beheaded or otherwise executed has been murdered by a Sunni, every jihadist terrorist attack in the USA itself, including 9/11, has been exclusively Sunni, the Benghazi attack was by Sunnis, Isil are Sunni, Al Nusra are Sunni, the Taliban are Sunni and the vast majority of US troops killed in the region are killed by Sunnis.
Precisely which are these hundreds of deaths for which the Shia forces of Soleimani were responsible? Is there a list? It is of course a simple lie. Its tenuous connection with truth relates to the Pentagon's estimate – suspiciously upped repeatedly since Iran became the designated enemy – that back during the invasion of Iraq itself, 83% of US troop deaths were at the hands of Sunni resistance and 17% of of US troop deaths were at the hands of Shia resistance, that is 603 troops. All the latter are now lain at the door of Soleimani, remarkably.
Those were US troops killed in combat during an invasion. The Iraqi Shia militias – whether Iran backed or not – had every legal right to fight the US invasion. The idea that the killing of invading American troops was somehow illegal or illegitimate is risible. Plainly the US propaganda that Soleimani was "responsible for hundreds of American deaths" is intended, as part of the justification for his murder, to give the impression he was involved in terrorism, not legitimate combat against invading forces. The idea that the US has the right to execute those who fight it when it invades is an absolutely stinking abnegation of the laws of war.
As I understand it, there is very little evidence that Soleimani had active operational command of Shia militias during the invasion, and in any case to credit him personally with every American soldier killed is plainly a nonsense. But even if Soleimani had personally supervised every combat success, these were legitimate acts of war. You cannot simply assassinate opposing generals who fought you, years after you invade.

dave , Jan 12 2020 13:34 utc | 437
@Russ Yes Bosnia was primarily US proxy, Alija Izetbegovic, Bosnian Muslim leader, he staged a coup with US backing, before he organized the illegal arming of his political party with illegal weapons, they started the war by attacking Yugoslav forces, Alija Izetbegovic wanted an Islamic State according to the Iranian revolution (as he had written in his book "Islamic Declaration"), many Iranian mujahideen (including Solaymani himself) besides famous Al Qaeda members went to Bosnia to fight (together). The Clinton administration gave the green light to Iran for their support to the Bosnian Muslims (which also included Sunni Islamic radicals and known 911 hijackers). Iran is willing to support Sunni terrorists if that is in their geopolitical interests, just as they supported Sunni radicals in the Palestinian areas (suicide bombings). Now Iran is enemy with Sunni radicals/terrorists, but Iran always wanted to unite all Islamic forces against Israel (and Christian world). Russia is seeking equilibrium in the middle east, Putin does not want to allied himself with 1 country against another country in the middle east, Russia does not want to allied herself with Iran against Israel, or the other way around.
Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 13:47 utc | 438
dave
You are rapped up in the concept of suicide attacks. It is as old as war itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack#History,_pre-1980

Jack_garbo , Jan 12 2020 13:50 utc | 439
No more "whatabout" distraction from Iranian incompetence and guilt. One shootdown at a time. Iranian officers must be punished, commanders dismissed, compensation offered.
US and other Western crimes are separate, keep them separate.
Carciofi , Jan 12 2020 13:57 utc | 440
@269

"It is a mystery to me why the airport was not closed down that night, esp. in view of the FAA warning that specifically addresses Tehran."

This questions has been asked multiple times by numerous people, b included. Speculation only, but one possibility is that after the missile strike on the air bases the Iranian government was expecting a military response from the U.S., perhaps even Shock and Awe Ver 2. Maybe in that highly tense period somebody high up decided it would be better not to close the airspace immediately, thinking it would complicate matters for the U.S. And if a civilian plane did get hit in the cross-fire, the U.S. could be rightfully blamed.

Al Kiani , Jan 12 2020 13:59 utc | 441
Immediately after this horrific tragedy the leaders of the US Canada Austria Germany Holland as well as other Western leaders claimed that a missile had brought the plane down sighting "intelligence." How did the Western leaders know so quickly? Were their intelligence organizations privy in any way in bringing down the plane? Through hacking air defense radars or some other high-tech tools?

As the fog of War lifts, as we proceed forward I suspect we will know more. A lot more.

Sasha , Jan 12 2020 14:03 utc | 442
Some points...

-That now The Donald comes Twitting in Farsi is the obvious evidence that he does not manage his Twitter account, but one of his "ideologues", or a CIA agent...I bet Steven Miller...that nazi disguised in a gentleman suit trying, without success, to constrain his overwhelming rage againt everybody who do not profess his ideas...

-The regime in Oman will do nothing and will never join the Axis of Resistance, as a regime which resulted from a coup d´etat supported by the US/UK against its own father/monarch. We will be dándonos con un canto en los dientes if they remain somwhow "neutral"...
People who are more worried for their long time made up turbans, who hate getting untidy by any reason, do not usually take part in any fight, but like to remain as espectators...
That same could be said of the Swiss...who had the entrails to remain neutral during the nazi carnage, in the voew of all Europe being invaded, destroyed, submitted...hence they are now a rich country who act mainly as postman of the US...they had never to recover and rebuilt anything from smithereens as the rest of all....

-@Vintage Red, I join your expression of gratitude to bevin, although had to search for your numbered comments amongst the sea of trolls, but you notice the clear contrast with other alleged leftist resident of always ( notice how well they swim here in this sea of trolls and how they have taken advantage today to be prolific....)
That of bevin would be the common stance of any decent honest leftist, or person, in the world. The others resident here, who seem part time lefties, they really are not, but Trotskyite NATOist capitalist imperialist fifth column, the ones who have disintegrated and dismantled the genuine left in Europe and the whole West with their confussing stances, one day they say this, the other just the opposite....they criticize, slightly, the US, but then, at the first opprtunity, fall over any country or people from the resistance field as a hammer, justifying that way the evil deeds of the US and its cohort of criminal collaborating governments in Europe and North America.

-I continue finding the Russian stance in all these events shamefully mild, when not totally absent.

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 14:07 utc | 443
The US and five eyes Orwellian hypocracy is far worse than any suicide attackers - in fact they now back the majority of them - the destruction a good part of the world in their war of terror, the humanitarian bombs and right to protect, weapons of mass destruction and vials of white powder regime changing friend and foe alike... the other day I had the pleasure of happening to be near a radio and had to listen to MH17 2.0 narrative ad nauseam. When Iran officials still thought the plane had come down due to technical problems fife new not only that it was downed by a surface to air missile, but that it was downed with a Tor missile.
With that it was completely obvious five eyes had pulled off another MH17 stunt.
And now shit head trolls like yourself and garbage man come to infest this site.
vk , Jan 12 2020 14:08 utc | 444
Now that Iran admitted downing the plane by mistake, some western journalists are pushing the narrative that it did it on purpose, and not by accident:

Iran keeps concocting fake news on downed jet

Stephen Bryen is the broken clock who was, for the first time in his life, right about the cause of the downing of the plane. Now he's riding on this excitement and is going one step further, echoing Trudeau's accusation one day earlier.

His main point of argument is that it is not possible the Tor operator had "only 6 seconds" to decide.

In the last thread, people who used the "it's too much coincidence" argument won the debate against all odds.

Now it's time for another "it's too much coincidence" argument: why, of all planes, it was a Boeing? Why, of all nationalities, it was Ukraine?

If Iran really downed the plane on purpose, then we're in counter-intelligence territory. The list of the names of the passengers is already out; some people here highlighted the fact that there were nuclear scientists in it; others highlighted the fact that the Americans can "mask" the signatures of a Boeing to make it look like a military plane; others got so far as to speculate about some kind of autopilot from afar. The correct question, though, should be: what did the Iranians discovered in or about that specific flight of such importance that they thought it better to publicly admit they downed it "by mistake"?

Kadath , Jan 12 2020 14:13 utc | 445
Re Peter Au,

Yes thats the same message that came with the alert no details on what happend though. Pickering has a terrible safety record so the government assurances mean very little to me if they felt this was important enough to send out an emergency warning saying you dont need to do anything they should at least give some explantion of what happend - as im typing they send out another emergency alert saying the first alert was sent in error what a bunch of monkeys what is going on another Hawaii missile drill

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 14:28 utc | 446
vk "what did the Iranians discovered in or about that specific flight of such importance that they thought it better to publicly admit they downed it "by mistake"

Over the last years, Iran has gone to great pains to do things by the letter of international law. It has top quality diplomats and statesmen like Zarif. It wishes to trade with the world, be accepted by the world while retaining sovereignty and way of life. IT complied with the original stipulation of the nuke deal for a year after US pulled out, and with the introductions of US sanctions, European countries pulled out of deals and trade with Iran. Even now Iran is still within the terms of the nuke deal as the are stipulations on what can be done if a party pulls out or does not abide by the deal.
Iranian government for the first day or so where sure the plane had come down due to technical problems. When they found it had been shot down as their enemies were saying, it was a major blow. Those few days of denying it had been shot down undone much of the painstaking diplomatic work they had accomplished over a decade or so.
Also on the military side, Iranian military have proven to be very professional and high tech, but this shootdown will be used against them to try and show incompetence as many of the trolls here are doing.

Saraah , Jan 12 2020 14:30 utc | 447
Dave, for others to understand everything, please answer the only question. Are you one of those who are tolerantly called Zionists on this site?
ADKC , Jan 12 2020 14:51 utc | 448
Dave @422

"Ukraine did not close down the airspace, they were using the airliners as human shield as has been proven by the fact their jets were shadowing the airliners."

If we accept your view then we must accept that this was an intended win/win situation for Ukraine; Ukraine could use civilian aircraft for cover and, also, induce the rebels to shoot down a civilian aircraft. (I have a different view of MH17 but it would be OT to go into).

The MH17 scenario that you describe can only be comparable to Iranian shooting down PS752 if the US used similar tactics (presumably by use of electronic warfare) in order to induce Iran to shoot down PS752...

...or is it that your posts are full of fact-free, poorly researched whataboutism that should just be disregarded by any thinking person?

vk @444 asks the correct question? Perhaps, Iran know much more but a pre-requisite is that they must take responsibility for what they did - shooting down PS752) - and, perhaps, this is not what the US/west expected Iran to do? How would Iran know? Perhaps, Russian monitoring of US EW activity has revealed much more than the US expected? And, perhaps, Russia will not agree to any public relevation at present?

Sasha , Jan 12 2020 14:53 utc | 449
@Posted by: Emily | Jan 12 2020 13:18 utc | 436

To your list of Sunni terrorists´ victims, add all those resulting from terrorist attacks in Europe in the last years, by, then discovered, suspciously Sunni extremists related to mosques and mullahs funde by KSA for long time old known of the security services of any European country which has suffered these terrorist attacks....

Everybody a bit informed and their dogs knows by now that all these attacks were made to create "shock and awe" amongst the gullible population to jusitify European intevention in the illegal wars on Lybia, Syria and Iraq....What the gullible population do not know is that their governments were allying in all those invaded and slaughtered countries the same Sunni extremist terrorist who have slaughtered their own population in Europe, and not only, but morevoer they gave them prizes... like with the case of the UK MI6 founded/funded/trained White Helmets of HM...

BM , Jan 12 2020 14:59 utc | 450
There is a lot of tin hat conspiracy theorising in this thread (1) centred on an alleged FAA ban on US flights over "Tehran", and (2) that the Ukraine flight allegedly turned back to the airport before being hit by the missile.

The nonesense over the alleged FAA ban on US flights over "Tehran" has thankfully already been dealt with by the posting of the full text of the NOTAMs: the FAA ban, which applied only to US aircraft, was for all US flights in the whole of Iran airspace and the whole of Iraq airspace. Such a ban is fully to be expected in view of recent US military actions.

As regards the alleged turn of the aircraft. The Flightradar24 site shows the actual path of the Ukraine flight up to the point the transponder signals ceased (the point where the missile hit), and compare it both with the other 9 flights from Tehran that morning, and with the previous 45 scheduled flights by PS752. It is crystal clear that the only turn the aircraft made up to the point it was hit was 100% in line with it's scheduled flight plan. The only difference that could be drawn is that in terms of angle of climb it was well below average - almost but not quite the lowest of the 45 flights - because the aircraft was way overweight and therefore had difficulty climbing even on full power. The pilot Peter Haisenko wrote in detail about that. The turn, however, (up to the end of transponder transmissions) was only about 50 degrees, and was completely in line with other flights. The turn was also completed well before the missile hit - when the missile hit it was already established on straight and level flight.

The video of the Aerospace Commander's presentation shows a very sketchy hand-drawn diagram which is not to scale, with an exaggerated turn (but still depicted as less than the claimed 90 degrees). However the Aerospace Commander's sketch and the Flightradar24 charts are wholly in agreement despite the very inaccurate sketch - this is clear from the locality map given by Flightplan24, and further down the page the elevation plan, which shows the topography in 3-D.

In the latter picture you can clearly see the mountains in the background, and two smaller pointed hills in the foreground. From the video it is clear that the air defence base was at the top of the second (further) of these small hills, obviously utilising the high ground for the defence of Tehran. Virtually all the flights shown by Flightradar24 first start to turn at exactly the same point - level with the first hill - and turn towards a path going immediately to the left of the second hill where the air defence is mounted. This means that immediately on completion of the turn, all these flights would be pointing nearly directly at the air defence base, exactly as shown on the commander's sketch (except that the latter exaggerated somewhat the angle of turn). Comparing the map with the 3-D view this can be seen quite clearly.

This does not say anything about whether there was a turn after being hit - if the missile hit one engine this would automatically cause the aircraft to turn unless compensated for by the pilots, who may have been already dead - that is irrelevant to this issue.


I do share the gut feeling that the incident may have been set-up by the US, because there are a lot of grounds for suspicion, but as far as I know there is no concrete evidence in the public domain in support of that suspicion at this stage - certainly not in terms of an unusual turn before being hit by the missile.

Grounds for the Iranians to believe they had detected cruise missiles are likely very strong - the US uses electronic warfare measures (see the link posted by Peter AU) which cause the Iranian radar to see phantom images of moving objects. Many US aircraft were moving around the outside(??) of Iranian airspace, presumably creating these phantom radar images of cruise missiles, therefore the Iranians would presumably have "seen" these suspected cruise missiles in the border regions, assumed they then penetrated Iranian territory unseen by hugging the ground through the mountains, in which case they could suddenly appear subsequently at some stage where radar can detect them.

[Jan 12, 2020] It continue to be highly suspicious of the fact that it is a Ukrainian plane. Ukraine is firmly in the Anglo-Zionist camp,

Jan 12, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Tom_LX , Jan 11 2020 19:40 utc | 250

The fact that the plane was brought down because of the conflict initiated by Trump makes everything about it very suspicious. Just because Iran states that it is responsible does not disqualify the possibility that they were not made to make this mistake. We do not know the facts as to what the Iranian defense system saw as that Ukrainian plane was flying.

I continue to be highly suspicious of the fact that it is a Ukrainian plane. Ukraine is firmly in the Anglo-Zionist camp, period. Zelensky or not the deal was sealed when V. Nuland finished her work in Kiev. The only reason Ukraine made a deal with Russia is because it is in financial trouble and needs revenue. The West will not keep it afloat. So thinking that suddenly it is conducting its own foreign policy is incorrect.

As an aside. Does a sovereign country bring in a man like this to help it run its country ?

Mikheil Saakashvili - born 21 December 1967) is a Georgian and Ukrainian politician.[7][8] He was the third President of Georgia for two consecutive terms from 25 January 2004 to 17 November 2013. From May 2015 until November 2016, Saakashvili was the Governor of Ukraine's Odessa Oblast.[1][9][10] He is the founder and former chairman of the United National Movement party.
How about this one,
Natalie Ann Jaresko is an American-born Ukrainian investment banker who served as Ukraine's Minister of Finance from December 2014 until April 2016.[1] In 20 March 2017, she was appointed as executive director of the Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico.
or this one,
Aivaras Abromavičius is a Lithuanian-born Ukrainian investment banker and politician. On 31 August 2019 Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky appointed Abromavičius the Director General of Ukroboronprom.[1] Previously he was Ukraine's Minister of Economy and Trade starting in December 2014 (Abromavičius announced his resignation on 3 February 2016). He did not retain his post in the Groysman Government that was installed in 14 April 2016.[2]

Ukraine is a Captured State.

Thus the possibility exists that that plane may have had some equipment placed in it in Kiev that could trick the Iranian Defense system to think a craft is a danger to it. Kiev would have been a safe place to do it (reasons above). If this were true does anyone here believe that announcing this fact Public opinion would believe it ? I for one don't. Russia knows how that worked out with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). No matter what Iran would have said that would have been spun in the West as attempting to blame someone else. Thanks to this all attention in the Media would have been on Iran which Trump would have loved. Again, Russia knows how this was played out in Malaysia MH17 case. The average CNN viewer in that case would not see how the BUKA Russian was being used as evidence that it was Russia that shot the plane down.

Iran did the right thing in admitted that it was responsible whether it was their fault or not. There was simply no way to win in the case of having being fooled into shooting the plane down.


E Mo Scél , Jan 11 2020 20:36 utc | 259

The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes. Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran speech.
alaff , Jan 11 2020 21:00 utc | 265
Iran deserves respect, if only because it openly and honestly admitted its responsibility for what happened. This shows the maturity and courage of the political and military leadership of this country.
It is clear that the plane was shot down unintentionally. It is also obvious that Iran was provoked by the actions of the United States.

This is called life. That happens. And not only that. Human factor. We cannot avoid this and 100% eliminate all risks.

In 1914, an idiot killed a monarch, which led to a large-scale war and the death of millions of people. Human factor. Soldiers accidentally make the wrong buttons. Workers at an oil factory smoke in the wrong place, resulting in huge fires. People do not notice an extinct burner on a gas stove, resulting in an explosion, collapse of the house and death of people. Vacationers tourists did not extinguish after themselves a fire in the forest, as a result of which a giant fire covers thousands of hectares of territory. During the invasion of Iraq in 2003, American Patriot systems destroyed a friendly British Tornado fighter bomber (in addition to the destroyed American fighters). In February 2017, the Russian Aerospace Forces mistakenly attacked the Turkish military in northern Syria. In 2001, Ukrainian air defense, conducting military exercises, shot down a Russian passenger plane TU-154 over the Black Sea, 78 people died. So on and so on... The technique and equipment is imperfect. People all the more.

The Iranian situation is very similar to what happened in September 2018. Syrian air defense shot down a Russian military plane, provoked by deliberate actions by Israeli aviation. Just to remind that the Russian side has made it clear who is the true culprit of the tragedy. In the case of Iran, the same thing. It is one thing if the plane crashes as a result of a pilot error or a technical malfunction. But when it is now clear that plane was shot down, and the Iranian air defense acted as it was provoked by the actions of the United States, then the guilt of the United States only increases.

bevin , Jan 11 2020 19:27 utc | 242
Iran bears very little, if any responsibility in this matter.
The United States is entirely to blame-what has occurred is exactly what the
US government was aiming at. It has created an atmosphere of fear and panic
in the knowledge that it would create chaos-that normal government would break down
and mistakes be made.
The US plays with the lives of people. It plays God, a God dedicated to the principle of pure evil.
It plays with people's lives, the lives of the 'ants' that Harry Lime saw from above Vienna,
as a matter of course. In Gaza children with cancer cannot get treatment because the US and Israel
want to make life harder for their parents. The evil objective is to madden the people to the point
that they will rise up and kill those who oppose the Occupation. In Colombia, Bolivia, Honduras, Ecuador
and Brazil-even as we speak Death Squads-trained armed and financed-by the US and Israel stalk those
who want to reform their society. In Venezuela the supply of food and medicine is interrupted as far as
the power of the US and its allies extends.
Around the world where there are evil deeds being carried out, where children are starving, medicines are
withheld, protesters are being assassinated and militias are terrorising the population-the hands of the
United States and its allies are always evident. It was they who imported tens of thousands of wahhabis
into Afghanistan, Russia, China and the battlegrounds that we all know in order to kill, frighten and impoverish
the people. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iran, Lebanon and far beyond- all of them have seen their
living standards diminished, their security removed their hopes of happiness systematically thwarted.
In order, evil order, to punish them, not for anything that they have done but in the hope that they will
surrender themselves to the United States and its agents, submit.
The truth is that human history has never seen a regime like that now ruling the United States and attempting
to rule the world. Nothing compares with it, the Nazis were simply malicious pygmies in comparison.
Many people from Trudeau to posters here refuse to admit what is crystal clear and what history will
confirm: all the deaths that come, daily, weekly, yearly from this assumption by the United States of
prerogatives, religion reserves for God; all the deaths that come from this juvenile playing with the lives of
ordinary people are entirely the choice of the US government.
Trudeau bears more responsibility for the deaths of these airline passengers than anyone in Iran. It was his choice to
keep the Embassy doors closed, to withdraw diplomatic representation and to join the US in its sanctions
against the Iranian people. He has made the same choice in Venezuela, where similar accidents may occur (have occurred
as in the sabotage of the power grid). People died then, people die daily and they do so because of choices made by
governments playing with the lives of the people.
Everyone of the victims would be alive today had not the mafia in Washington decided to smash up their society.
And they would almost certainly have been alive still had Trudeau and Freeland-and the four parties in Ottawa- done
, what most Canadians want them to do and disassociate themselves and Canada from the evil games Washington plays.

I hope that no Iranian is tricked into surrendering to evil. I hope that the tone of the Revolutionary Guards-one
of sincere regret and manly apology- does not inform their future moves which must be to re-double their commitment
to the defence of their country and the defeat of the most evil government the world has ever seen.

Ort , Jan 11 2020 19:30 utc | 243
Re: Trudeau's escalating attempts at scene-stealing

The odious, opportunistic popinjay Trudeau seems to have calculated that it's time for him to upgrade his "brand" from "dashing young Bonnie Prince Justin" to "Mature Statesman with Gravitas".

Thus, his predilection for elbowing his way to the head of the Western Hegemony Official Spokesperson line and bumptiously blowing off his big bazoo.

The new beard is a "tell"; some men, especially handsome but "baby-faced" men, are susceptible to an abiding adolescent impulse to grow facial hair in order to appear more mature. It can't be a coincidence that Trudeau's beard correlates with his increased penchant for making (fatuous) bold and aggressive pronouncements on geopolitical crises.

I know that Trudeau has a pedigree that nominally puts him in the top drawer of Canada's political aristocracy. Still, he reminds me a lot of the Venezuelan golpista boy-toy Juan "Random Guy" Guaidó.

Andromeda , Jan 11 2020 20:38 utc | 261
Prometheus - Thank you for your information. I previously thought the transponder signal would identify the plane as a civilian aircraft but one question remains for me: even without IFF would the airtraffic control not (verify the identity)and be in contact with the pilot when the course is changed? Is there no coordination between civlian and military air-control? (especially in such a tense situation)

(the Ukrainain plane turned around - why?)

Still ...despite the admission it is strange that an aviation expert like Peter Haisenko (retired Lufthansa pilot with special technical knowledge who knows Tehran airport well) came to a very different conclusion: (excerpt from German Original - my translation)

Weil mittlerweile bekannt ist, dass die Boeing nach dem ersten Aufprall noch etwa 500 Meter über den Boden geschrammt ist, darf man davon ausgehen, dass sie in flachem Winkel den Boden berührt hat, etwa wie bei einer Landung. Sie ist also nicht „ungespitzt" in den Boden gerammt.

Since it is now known the Boing grazed the ground for about 500 metres after impact it is reasonable to assume that she touched the ground at a flat-angle, like in a regular landing. [...]

Das deutet wiederum darauf hin, dass sich die Piloten in ihrer Notlage gar nicht bewusst waren, wie nahe sie dem Boden bereits sind und völlig unerwartet Bodenkontakt hatten. [...]

This is an indication that the Pilots were not aware of their emergency (how close to the ground they were) and unexpectedly touched the ground. [...]


Fest steht wohl, dass die ukrainische Boeing nach dem Start einen Motorschaden hatte. Und zwar einen soliden, mit Feuer und Totalausfall.

It appears to be certain that the Ukrainian Boeing suffered an engine breakdown after take-off, a severe one with fire and total failure.


Zunächst stelle ich fest, dass es nahezu unmöglich ist, ein Passagierflugzeug in dieser Flugphase abzuschießen. Man müsste schon jemanden mit einer kleinen Boden-Luft-Rakete im erwarteten Abflugkorridor platzieren, der dann dem abfliegenden Jet die Rakete hinterher schießt. Dieses hitzesuchende Projektil könnte dann einen Motor treffen, was aber kein zwingender Grund für einen Absturz ist. Mit einem Motor kann das Flugzeug weiter fliegen, wenn die Rahmenumstände entsprechend aller Vorschriften gesetzt worden sind. Eine größere, aufwendigere Flugabwehreinrichtung scheidet für diese Flugphase und den Ort aus. Nicht nur wegen der geringen Höhe über Grund, sondern auch, weil es solche Anlagen in dieser Gegend nicht gibt. Wenn, dann befinden sie sich im weiteren Umkreis, um Angriffe aus größerer Höhe weit vor der Stadt abzuwehren. Warum ist es dann überhaupt zu dem Absturz gekommen?

https://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2020/ist-die-ukrainische-b-737-in-teheran-abgeschossen-worden/

Haisenko asserts that " it is nearly impossible to shoot down a passenger plane in this phase of the flight. In order to do that you'd need to place a (sort of) MANPAD in the expected flight-corridor and the heat-seaking missile could then destroy one of the engines.But this does not automatically lead to the crashing of the plane since it is able to fly with one engine [...] A bigger anti-aircraft system is not suitable for this phase of the flight ... these systems aim to intercept (destroy) targets flying at much higher altitutes and farther away from the cities ... So why did the crash happen?

Obviously he wrote that before the Iranian admission was published and with limited knowledge but still one wonders if electronic warfare played a role and certain parties wanted that plane to crash ... (at least a closer look at the passenger list seems advisable)


Emily , Jan 11 2020 21:01 utc | 266
Bevin 242

That is one of the best posts I have ever read and I have read more than a few.
Never a truer word.
If it needed a precis.......
Madeleine Albright.
The deaths of of 500,000 Iraqi children is a price worth paying.
This from a woman who had played a leading role in the destruction of Yugoslavia and the handing of the Serbian province of Kosovo to the KLA a forerunner of Al Qaeda and ISIS.
Today a narco criminal islamic state - and a base for the bloodletting and birthing of the European Caliphate.
And unlimited proxies for the USA War Of!! Terror across the Middle East.
Pure evil.

harold , Jan 11 2020 21:02 utc | 268
Sadly due to their own incompetence, Iran lost there moral high ground!
A great disappointment to those of us who supported Iran through thick and thin.

I'm not convinced this is a moral issue.

E Mo Scel , Jan 11 2020 21:03 utc | 269
am repeating my first comment for context sake:

The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes. Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran speech.

Adding:

This would also explain why this is the first time the US did not respond to a state attacking US institutions/military bases. The Us, in fact, did respond: "Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!"

we have (!) targeted (that must mean there were plans for imminent actions in place, it's not saying "we will target") Iranian sites, some at a very high level (!), very fast (!) and very hard.

Their response went horribly wrong. Maybe a US drone was found. Maybe the US jammed communication systems. It's all speculation but it could be that the US response is the cause for the shooting down of the plane. It is a mystery to me why the airport was not closed down that night, esp. in view of the FAA warning that specifically addresses Tehran. The Iranian civil flights authority should have known about this, or is information of this kind proprietary, i.e. not shared across countries/systems? The FAA is a lead aviation agency, it's not as if the aviation agency of Tristan da Cunha had issued such a ban.

The FAA banning US aircraft flying over Tehran after Iran had struck the bases - my gut tells me the US had planned and were executing a response involving a target in Tehran which resulted in the plane being targeted by Iranian air defense systems... the jamming of communication systems (which would have been part of the US response) would be the direct cause for the plane being targeted. If this is true the US has this blood on their hands, not Iran. Again, that's why Trump was clearly under the influence of some drugs. Because that blood is on his hands, or rather, his big mouth and big ego.

...

"Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD."

somebody , Jan 11 2020 21:08 utc | 270
Daily Telegraph with explanations
(before Iran confessed)
How would the passenger plane have been accidentally targeted?

That is less clear, but is one of the challenges facing any missile operator. While military aircraft will plot course to avoid radar, civilian airliners are equipped with transponders that identify the craft and their flight path set and share it with military bases in the area.

Theoretically, the Ukrainian Boeing 737-800 should have been identified as a civilian craft on any radar. But if the Western assessment is true, this incident will join other tragic incidents of civilian planes being shot down by anti-aircraft weaponry.

In 2014, Malaysia Airline Flight 17 was suspected to have been inadvertently shot down by Russian missiles, though Moscow has consistently denied any involvement. And in 1988, a US warship engaging with Iranian gunboats in the Persian Gulf, the USS Vincennes, shot down an Iranian passenger plane after mistaking it for a jet fighter, killing all 290 people on board.

They have a nice map of Iran's rocket range. The map explains the Russian attitude towards Iran which is complex. Iran's rockets do NOT reach the USA but they reach the whole of the Middle East and a large part of Russia.

mikh , Jan 11 2020 21:29 utc | 272
To all the smart asses:Yes Iran should have closed the airport but other have some responsibility too. The Ukraine for example. Allowing planes to fly in to what is practically a war zone. Not that thei have done it before..
Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 21:34 utc | 274
Iranian military presentation which shows flight path, at what position in the turn
the aircraft was hit and location of SAM site in relation to the plane.
https://twitter.com/AbasAslani/status/1215942737557671936

The aircraft was hit when it had turned directly towards the Tor unit, at that point a
turn of nearly ninety degrees which I take it was located at the military site.

Bill Smith , Jan 11 2020 21:46 utc | 281
According to this Iran has fired this system at other civilian aircraft. From the news in 2012:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/world/middleeast/wary-of-israel-iran-is-said-to-blunder-in-strikes.html

"Iranian air defense units have taken inappropriate actions dozens of times, including firing antiaircraft artillery and scrambling aircraft against unidentified or misidentified targets," noted a heavily classified Pentagon intelligence report, which added that the Iranian military's communications were so inadequate and its training deficiencies so significant that "misidentification of aircraft will continue."

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 22:14 utc | 291
E Mo Scel 284

The Ukraine plane was the target and the operation was successfull.
this was the only way US could strike Iran without Iran striking US bases throughout the regin plus Israel.
When Trump threatened strikes against 52 cultural sites if Iran retaliated for the killing of Soleimani, Iran said Isreal would also be hit (it has been noticeable US and Isreal have beeing trying pass of US as threatening Iran as indipendent of Isreal).
This is when the Trump admin and Israel would have settled on the takedown of a civian craftby Iran air defence. This makes Iran look fools in the eyes of fools as has occurred here and not the highly professional force they truly are.

Sam , Jan 11 2020 22:21 utc | 292
Iranians have gathered in the streets of Tehran to demand the resignation of Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei after the regime admitted it had mistakenly shot down a civilian passenger plane.

Angry crowds gathered on Saturday night in at least four locations in Tehran, chanting 'death to liars' and calling for the country's supreme leader to step down over the tragic military blunder, video from the scene shows.

What began as mournful vigils for Iranian lives lost on the flight soon turned to outrage and protest against the regime, and riot police quickly cracked down, firing tear gas into the crowd.

'Death to the Islamic Republic' protesters chanted, as the regime's security forces allegedly used ambulances to sneak heavily armed paramilitary police into the middle of crowds to disperse the demonstration.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7876363/Iranian-protesters-Tehran-turn-against-regime-military-admits-shooting-plane.html

I don't blame the Iranians protesting the unnecessary deaths of their compatriots through sheer incompetence and lack of coordination among civil and military officials. They clearly should have grounded all commercial flights. Their air defense units should have at least the basic ability to discern between a commercial jet and military aircraft & missiles. If they are this incompetent or their systems are so poor how do they expect to withstand the onslaught of an air attack by the US that would include thousands of missiles and thousands of sorties a day! Tehran will be flattened.

E Mo Scel , Jan 11 2020 23:19 utc | 313
Peter AU1 291

We agree that there was a US response, and that the plane was involved in this response. You think it was the idea from the beginning to trick Iranian air defense into shooting this particular plane down, I think there was a different target and things did not go according to plan, while the plane played a role. Both of us are speculating. You think the operation was successful, I say no, things went wrong. The US could not continue with their operation as this would have made it obvious they had utilized the plane in some way. It's different from the incident where Syria shot down a Russian military plane when Israeli jets used it as cover - this here was a civilian plane. So, speculation from my side.

It's also to be observed that 146 people on the plane were Iranian citizens; this could speak for your theory as this is a problem for the government of Iran (protests) ("One-hundred forty-six victims held Iranian passport, ten Afghan, five Canadian, four Swede and two Ukrainian. All nine crew members consisting of three cockpit crew and six cabin crew were Ukrainian. Note: A number of victims could have had multiple nationalities, so other news reports might introduce them with different nationalities than the ones in this report. The above list concerns the passport with which they left the Islamic Republic of Iran air border.") https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Iran-CAO-PS752-Initial-Report.pdf

I have no means to know. I am sure, though, that the big mouthed announcement of Trump is real. There was a response. I hope the dams won't hold for this one.

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 23:32 utc | 314
E Mo Scel

Various MSM have stories of victims. The British and Canadian victims I saw in these articles all had Iranian names. Students expats ect returning to Iran for a visit.
One couple to get married in Iran.
Seemed to be a large number of university students including a couple of professors.

Vasco da Gama , Jan 11 2020 23:39 utc | 317
Regarding the FAA NOTAMS restricting airspace a list is provided here . It is not accurate to claim only Tehran was restricted:

KICZ A0001/20 - SECURITY..UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT PROHIBITION AGAINST CERTAIN FLIGHTS IN THE BAGHDAD FLIGHT INFORMATON REGION (FIR)
(ORBB) - 07 JAN 23:45 2020 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 07 JAN 23:49 2020

KICZ A0002/20 - SECURITY..UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT PROHIBITION AGAINST CERTAIN FLIGHTS IN THE TEHRAN FLIGHT INFORMATON REGION (FIR) (OIIX) - 08 JAN 00:10 2020 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 08 JAN 00:07 2020

Notice these cover national airspace, it is not limited to the cities they refer to. The timezones are UTC.

Zanon , Jan 11 2020 23:41 utc | 318
Well Israel and neocons sure have a good laugh how well it turned out for them past week. Not sure how Iran will be able to get back from this anytime soon, now being attacked both from abroad and internally. Not to mention the collaboration between protesters and the west.
Qparticle , Jan 11 2020 23:51 utc | 321
This site and its comments have been an unfortunate repository of ridiculous, reflexive anti-American nonsense over the past few weeks. The speculation about the flight, and inability to accept Iranian responsibility, was one of the more silly charades.

Posted by: Daniel Lennon | Jan 11 2020 16:46 utc | 185

I would add anti-Semitic too....
In my own country can't criticise Mossad actions on the news.. it would be anti-Semitic too...

So here what came from a Forbes article that helped uncover a huge Mossad Operation targeting Cyprus Larnaka airport (their Cypriot allies)
The 2 "ex" agents identified is only probably the tip of the proverbial iceberg...

"A Multimillionaire Surveillance Dealer Steps Out Of The Shadows . . . And His $9 Million WhatsApp Hacking Van"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/08/05/a-multimillionaire-surveillance-dealer-steps-out-of-the-shadows-and-his-9-million-whatsapp-hacking-van#5787fb8231b7

Youtube: https://youtu.be/Tl3mpywMYFA

9.5 million smart phones it is estimated were hacked by the Mossad Stingray like tech discuised as plain ambulances alone in Larnaka air port during the time of the operation.

Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 1:10 utc | 346
This is looking to be a very complex operation the US and five eyes is pulling off. Rather than simply reacting to events after the killing of Soleimani, the killing was inteded to set up circumstances to induce Iran into firing at a civilian aircraft. The act of war in killing the Iranian military official and diplomat followed by threats against Iranian cultural sites. With Iran air dfences on high alert, all it required was to cut air defence coms and turn an aircraft at the same time. Once that is aclomplashed, making Iran look incompetent in the eyes of the world it is straight into the pre-organised regime change operation.
I hope Russia and China will be giving Iran a bit of an assist in this because they are facing a very dangerous moment. Anything can happen now that US thinks it has Iran on the backfoot. And I think Iran is on the backfoot at the moment. What has happened has shocked them. Zarif and others, saying the plane definitely was not shot down and then realising they were wrong.
Very dangerous period for Iran as US will now press its attack harder, and perhaps in more unexpected ways. Hopefully the crew that fired will not be punished because of this. If they are, air defense crew will be hesitant to make decisions anytime their coms are cut.
The IRGC said they had asked for all flights to be grounded but the request was not acted on. This is the area hopefully the Iranian investigation will focus on.
Peter AU1 , Jan 12 2020 1:38 utc | 353
VK "Right after the assassination of Soleimani, Pompeo went publicly and said Iran was "one step closer to regime change""

The Assassination was the first step. Trump threats against Iran cultural sites the second step. Iran retaliation against the US bases the third step. Downing the civilian aircraft step four. And guess what... regime change operation kicks into gear.

stevelaudig , Jan 12 2020 1:43 utc | 354
But for Trump's murder of Soleimani, the Iranians would not have been so jumpy.
Trump's murder of Soleimani, was a significant factor in making the Iranians jumpy.
These deaths go on Trump's death count card along with all the dead in Syria.

[Jan 12, 2020] Utter incompetence and criminal negligence of Iran authorities

So they warned Americans about incoming missile strikes, but did not cancel passenger flights... "As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to attack on American bases, it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground flights following the attack."
Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian flights were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also night take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . .
Notable quotes:
"... To let the civilians planes to flight while expecting they could have an US retaliation is a big mistake, because, as the Israeli did in the shooting-down of the IL-20 in Syria, the US plane could choose to be "radar-shadowed" by the civilians planes and use the civilians planes as shields before bomb the Iranian targets ..."
"... They should have grounded all commercial flights. Really, Really dumb on Iran's part. And I see the saker has been mum on the whole affair. ..."
"... It definitely shoots some holes in his propping up of the Iranian military/government to show how ready and focused they are for an American invasion. ..."
"... Why did the US keep info under wraps in the intelligence briefing to members U.S. Congress ... afterwards they specifically said there was. NO intelligence Ukraine airliner was shot down ... lots to learn for all. Not following the Putin playbook. Or other cover-ups like NATO downing an Italian passenger jet near Ithaca. Ukraine themselves have accidentally shot down a Siberian airliner by exercises above the Black Sea. ..."
"... Pretty hard to believe an accident this stupid. Sorry. ..."
Jan 12, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org
David , Jan 11 2020 11:58 utc | 107
The Iranian Armed Forces General Staff just admitted (in Farsi, English translation ) that its air defenses inadvertently shot down the Ukrainian flight PS 752 shortly after it took off on January 8 in Tehran :
2- In early hours after the missile attack [on US' Ain al-Assad base in Iraq], the military flights of the US' terrorist forces had increased around the country. The Iranian defence units received news of witnessing flying targets moving towards Iran's strategic centres, and then several targets were observed in some [Iranian] radars, which incited further sensitivity at the Air Defence units.

3- Under such sensitive and critical circumstances, the Ukrainian airline's Flight PS752 took off from Imam Khomeini Airport, and when turning around, it approached a sensitive military site of the IRGC, taking the shape and altitude of a hostile target. In such conditions, due to human error and in an unintentional move, the airplane was hit [by the Air Defence], which caused the martyrdom of a number of our compatriots and the deaths of several foreign nationals.

4- The General Staff of the Armed Forces offers condolences and expresses sympathy with the bereaved families of the Iranian and foreign victims, and apologizes for the human error. It also gives full assurances that it will make major revision in the operational procedures of its armed forces in order to make impossible the recurrence of such errors. It will also immediately hand over the culprits to the Judicial Organization of the Armed Forces for prosecution.

The Pentagon had claimed that Iran shot down the airliner but the evidence it presented was flimsy and not sufficient as the U.S. tends to spread disinformation about Iran.

To let the civilians planes to flight while expecting they could have an US retaliation is a big mistake, because, as the Israeli did in the shooting-down of the IL-20 in Syria, the US plane could choose to be "radar-shadowed" by the civilians planes and use the civilians planes as shields before bomb the Iranian targets


Nemesiscalling , Jan 11 2020 4:29 utc | 1

At the very least, it does show us that anxieties were running very high that evening/early morning with no "in-the-know" arrangement for how the deescalation was going to pan out.

They should have grounded all commercial flights. Really, Really dumb on Iran's part. And I see the saker has been mum on the whole affair.

It definitely shoots some holes in his propping up of the Iranian military/government to show how ready and focused they are for an American invasion.

Bodes poorly.

Mark , Jan 11 2020 4:53 utc | 4
Sadly due to their own incompetence, Iran lost there moral high ground!
A great disappointment to those of us who supported Iran through thick and thin.

/Slow clap

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 5:01 utc | 7
So much for engine malfunction. fives eyes said it was a missile so I thought it would have been their proxies like Ukraine, but not the case this time. Downing the drone firing only one missile, precision strikes on the US base... shit happens especially when the US and five eyes are involved and creating the fog of war. Hope it doesn't make the Iranians hesitate when they next need to fire one.
Sam , Jan 11 2020 5:05 utc | 8
@1

Yes, why didn't Iran ground all commercial flights while there was hostilities and the potential for reprisal missile and air attacks? Their air defenses can't be that good if they can't distinguish between a commercial jet and a military jet.

Indeed does not bode well in the event of war with the US which would destroy much of Iran.

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 5:14 utc | 10
For the trolls currently infesting this site - Iraq, a relatively small country when it comes to superpowers has been successfully fending off the US for fourty years. Fourty years when they could be attacked by the US at any time. They have developed their own air defences plus high tech missiles that accurately hit a US base within an Iraqi base. Trump is intent on destroying Iran. The US regime wouldn't hesitate to use a civilian plane to try and penetrate Iran's defences. US is as culpable of this downing as was the crew of the US ship that far from home and on Iran's doorstep downed the Iranian passenger jet.
SharonM , Jan 11 2020 5:15 utc | 11
@4 Mark

I'm pretty sure Iran will never lose the moral high ground against the U.S. and Israel;)

pleasebeleafme , Jan 11 2020 5:15 utc | 12
Well. Looks like Iran will have to lay low for awhile or at least until the US starts the war for real. Not necessarily a bad thing?
At least the victims families get some closure. Iran should propose that some of their frozen assets be released to pay restitution.
The downing of the plane probably helped avoid an American retaliation for the missile strikes.
Sam , Jan 11 2020 5:17 utc | 13
Iran cleared up the crash site where the passenger jet came down and before admitting its responsibility on Friday, said it wanted to handle the black box data itself.

The debris of the Boeing 737 has been removed from the crash site near Tehran before Ukrainian investigators have even arrived , sparking fears of a cover-up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7875505/Iran-ADMITS-shooting-Ukrainian-jetliner.html

It was a dead giveaway yesterday when Iran started clearing the debris from the crash site before any independent investigators arrived. When you add that to video that showed the Ukranian airliner exploding in the air, it would have indicated a decent probability that Iran was hiding something. But....most everyone in the earlier threads on the downing of the jet were finding all kinds of excuses why it couldn't have been an Iranian air defense missile.

Lysander , Jan 11 2020 5:30 utc | 18
Yes this is a horrible tragedy and I wish Iran had grounded all flights until they were certain all was clear. But in real life accidents and mistakes happen, sometimes very tragic and costly.

But all this talk of Iranian 'incompetence' and 'loss of moral high ground' is utter nonesense.

Iran handled this tragic mistake about as well as anyone could. Indeed far better than many others have. Especially when you consider that they knew that their enemies would use everything in an inform8war against them. Given the circumstances, Iran handled the aftermath as well as possible. 'Why did it take Iran so long to admit it?' Well, 'so long' is 3 days. And even before that, they invited experts from Boeing and even the NTSB to help with the investinvestigation.

And now those who wished to use this incident against Iran are stuck. What can they say? The US making a fuss about it will only offer an opportunity to remind everyone of IA655. Iran has already admitted it and apologized. Not much more to use.

And none of this changes the fact that Iran is the only country to openly retaliate against the US military and have the US back down.

tucenz , Jan 11 2020 5:37 utc | 20
The following link has interesting info about some of the people killed in the Ukrainian flight PS 752. Originally, I wasn't going to mention this article because in it it said "...A crash which US authorities are now saying was caused by Iran's own missile defence systems. An explanation which Iran seems to be accepting for the moment. ..." but as that seems to be the case. This tragic shootdown will make Russia cautious in supplying Iran with missiles.

https://postmanproductions.wordpress.com/2020/01/10/uss-cvn-aotearoa-a-lockheed-weapons-platform/

Fundas , Jan 11 2020 5:45 utc | 23

It only took 2 Days! US never publicly accepted responsibility for IR655. Iran promise to punish not honor or reward the guilty. MH17 any takers yet?

IronForge , Jan 11 2020 6:01 utc | 28
My Ship was headed to the Gulf on the Monday after the Friday Vincennes Incident.

I was in my Homeport in Japan that Evening. Spent Supper and Watched Music Videos at the Officers' Club. As I got off my Bike at the Pier - an Associate told me that We shot down an Iranian F-14.

We already had Skirmishes the Previous Summer with the USS Stark, which Kicked Off the Naval Convoys of Operation Earnest Will.

We know that the IRNians were harassing the Vincennes with their Gunboats. The Vincennes were told to leave the Area several times afterwards; but Disobeyed - Seeking to Destroy. The Air Warfare Team were hell bent on the Hunt, they Deluded Themselves to believe that a Hostile Aircraft was approaching. With no Comms/Responses and no one checking Commercial Flight Paths, they Shot Down the Airliner.

I confirmed this with the Officer leading the Anti Surface Team on the Vincennes that Day - when I met him during an MBA Prospective Tour at Harvard years later.

Human Error - Rushed Judgement. Now we need to see if the Aircraft did Deviate from the Path / Warnings+Comms were ongoing - and to see if it wasn't a Cover for Intel Photo Ops over the Base.

Oui , Jan 11 2020 6:03 utc | 29
The United States KNEW about the tragic event from the moment it happened. Military satellites in the sky can make sharper photo's than reporters on the ground of the crash site. The intelligence was shared with 5 Eyes plus ... incl. at least Israel and The Netherlands (PM Mark Rutte if MH-17 fame).

Why did the US keep info under wraps in the intelligence briefing to members U.S. Congress ... afterwards they specifically said there was. NO intelligence Ukraine airliner was shot down ... lots to learn for all. Not following the Putin playbook. Or other cover-ups like NATO downing an Italian passenger jet near Ithaca. Ukraine themselves have accidentally shot down a Siberian airliner by exercises above the Black Sea.

Pft , Jan 11 2020 6:41 utc | 40
Pretty hard to believe an accident this stupid. Sorry.

Could an Iranian have been turned by foreign agents to shoot down a passenger airliner, and then claim it was an accident?

Or could Iran have been enticed to make a false admission to protect Boeings reputation and/or the Ukraine airlines reputation. Perhaps a carrot of lesser severity in the new sanctions?

There is no way to know really. I suppose its simplest to just take Irans admission as truth. If US fighters were flying over Irans airspace I suppose thats an adequate defense.

Still, its hard to see it. I mean if that was the case and enemy aircraft were intruding over Irans airspace local civilian planes wouldn't have been cleared to take off by ATC because there is no way to guarantee the flight path is clear. They just wouldn't. And if they did Iran has just basically admitted how incompetent they are. I mean they knew what was coming since they launched the missiles into Iraq. They had to have a plan on if there was a retaliatory response They had to be tracking any incoming flights very carefully as potential targets. A flight taking off from Tehran cant possibly be confused as an attacker unless their air defense system and training of operators is FUBAR

I'm going back and watch Fake Wrestling. Its more believable

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 9:11 utc | 72
somebody
five eyes will come at you covered in any type of sheep clothing. Australian aid to east timor, UK's white helmets, plenty of stories of CIA inserting itself into aid agencies. Operation northwoods was one scheme put forward but not carried out. Sounds like the Ukraine plane may have made a sudden turn to head back to the airport but towards a protected site without allowing time for air defences to be notified.
There may be more to this story when flight records are retrieved.
Zanon , Jan 11 2020 10:50 utc | 89
Wow,

'I wish I was dead': Senior IRGC commander accepts full responsibility for downing Ukrainian plane, apologizes to nation
https://www.rt.com/news/478011-irgc-accepts-guilt-downing/

Zanon , Jan 11 2020 10:54 utc | 91
According to the commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, Amir Ali Hajizadeh, Iranian air defence systems mistook the Boeing 737 for a cruise missile. The plane was shot down with a short-range projectile, he added.
https://sputniknews.com/world/202001111078005863-iran-says-ukrainian-aircraft-brought-down-by-human-error-ap-reports/#article_item_1078007210
jiri , Jan 11 2020 10:58 utc | 92
Sounds very much like the situation with the Russian Il-20 that was brought down in Syria last year. Was someone trying to use the Ukrainian jet as a cover to attack the IRGC site?

Hostile planes in the area.

Flight 752 making an approach "positioning itself at the altitude and form of a hostile flight".

Maybe some experts will explain how common is it for an airliner to have an altitude and trajectory consistent with a hostile flight (of an attacking missile).

Apparently the plane first took on extra fuel because it was overloaded and then offloaded cargo because then it was even more overloaded. This seems illogical. What is the standard practice in these cases?

And then there was someone who was there early in the morning ready to take video of the flight.

And we had pictures of the missile fragment very soon after the crash. Someone knew what to look for and searched for it.

Remote controlled hijacking???

Many questions-few answers.

Perhaps the solution is to have a S-300 or S-400 system put in place just like Putin did after the IL-20 shootdown.


Quote from Farsnews

***
"Following threats by the criminal US president and military commanders to strike a large number of targets on the Islamic Republic of Iran's territory in case of an Iranian attack and due to the unprecedented aerial movements in the region, the Islamic Republic of Iran's Armed Forces were on highest levels of alert to respond to any possible threats," the statement said.

"In the early hours after the missile attack, military flights of the US terrorist forces increased around the country and defense units received some reports about flying objects that were moving towards the country's strategic centers as several targets appeared on radar screens which made the air defense units more sensitive," it added.

"Under such sensitive and critical circumstances, flight number 752 of the Ukrainian airline company left Imam Khomeini airport and then approached a sensitive military center after a turn, positioning itselt at the altitude and form of a hostile flight and was hit because of a human error and unintentionally under such conditions, and as a result a number of our country men and women and some foreign citizens lost their lives," it added.
****

End quote

https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13981021000078

Jen , Jan 11 2020 11:01 utc | 93
Johwa @ 92:

My first thought on seeing the news that the Iranian military had admitted to shooting down UIA Flight PS752 was similar to yours.

By making this admission, the Iranians nip in the bud any conspiracy theories and narratives that their enemies might try to weave and convince the public around the world (and especially diaspora Iranians) insinuating their guilt, whether actual or not, in the plane crash.

Supposing the Iranians did deliberately shoot down the plane, there may be a reason why they decided to say it was an accident: such an admission not only absolves them from accusations of cold-bloodedness which might cost them the trust of their neighbours (and others beyond their neighbourhood) but also relieves them of having to explain the real reason for shooting down the plane - because that reason may very well be something involving Ukraine in a regime-change activity or operation against Iran or one of its allies.

Chechens are known to be in Ukraine, and to be fighting for and against Kiev. What other groups not normally resident in Ukraine might have arrived there in the years since Yanukovych's ousting as President in February 2014, being trained as fighters to fight in other lands that have committed the unholy sin of defying the United States and the masters Washington DC serves?

What the Iranians have done in admitting culpability is sure to displease a lot of people, not satisfy them. They sure didn't see that one coming.

somebody , Jan 11 2020 11:09 utc | 96
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 10:51 utc | 99

I am sure they will fix the problem.

Why did the US not bother to warn other airlines ?

But shortly before the crash , the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration announced an emergency flight restriction for U.S. airlines flying over areas of Iraq and Iran. The FAA warned of the " potential for miscalculation or misidentification " of civilian planes because of increased military tensions in those areas.
Ghost Ship , Jan 11 2020 11:17 utc | 97
Iran will now be taken to the cleaners. The entire IRGC is classified by Washington as a terrorist organisation so I imagine some US vulture law firm is already looking at taking action in American courts against Iran in the full expectation that each victim's estate will be awarded billions of dollars compensation and the US law firm will earn billions in fees. Iran should get ahead of this game and make offers of substantial compensation (far more than the legal minimum) to the families of all the victims.
Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 12:10 utc | 115

"Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the fuselage, directly under the cockpit.

A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.

While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this remains to be clarified."

If this is the case, it is doubtful the pilots and perhaps the cockpit controls would have been in any condition to turn the aircraft after the first hit.

Red Ryder , Jan 11 2020 12:16 utc | 116
This is one good reason to make certain Iran does not get nuclear weapons.

Russia and China absolutely are working to keep Iran from getting nukes. And those are Iran's closest "allies", who are risking sanctions to help Iran survive the maximum pressure hybrid war.

Time to get real about Iran.

The regime should have let the Russians sell them the S-400, and let the Russians build an integrated defense system with communications for all units. It might have prevented such a tragedy. But the regime is full of pride and wants its weapons to be built by Iran. Thus, tragedy has befallen Iran. Needlessly.

They need to come up with a diplomatic, negotiating strategy (like listen to Putin) and change the present terms of engagement. The US will crush them economically otherwise. Trump doesn't have to fire a shot. Iran is stumbling backward, not just on a back foot.

Jonathan W , Jan 11 2020 12:43 utc | 125
The Daily Mail says right in the first paragraph that the communications were jammed, so let us look beyond the flight patterns to electronic warfare. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7875505/Iran-ADMITS-shooting-Ukrainian-jetliner.html?ito=facebook_share_article-top&fbclid=IwAR29exjv4giGs-UtLosaUXbynVfwsBg65VLyvryIhgw1wr-qTNnUQmLaiBg

[Jan 11, 2020] The resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny.

Jan 11, 2020 | off-guardian.org

Jan 11, 2020

David Macilwain ,

Your post merely adds to the feeling something very very odd has gone on here, as the resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny. If the Ukrainian army had come out and admitted, in only two days, that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been very different. But of course they didn't, and didn't need to, as fighter jets had done the job for them anyway. On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population from Kiev's air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they would have been the first to admit it. Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a "tragic accident" – as Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also went unheard.

But of course the two events are not the same, and not connected, or are they?

Did the Ukrainian plane have its transponder turned on? Was it the first plane to leave Tehran following the Iranian missile volleys? Would a cruise missile have been launched from Afghanistan towards the firing site in Kermanshah, passing over Tehran? What went on in the control tower of Imam Khomeini airport?
Nothing is clear yet, except "cui bono".

[Jan 11, 2020] DISCUSS Iran Admit to Shooting Down Ukrainian Passenger Flight OffGuardian

Jan 11, 2020 | off-guardian.org

Editor

(Photo by Akbar TAVAKOLI / IRNA / AFP)

Earlier today, President Rouhanie of Iran formally admitted that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps had shot down the Ukrainian passenger jet leaving Tehran a few days ago.

Speculation has been rampant, but here are the alleged facts of the case, at this time:

In the early hours of the 8th January, Iran launched missiles at two US-occupied bases in Iraq. This was done in retaliation for the death of General Qassem Soleimani. Ukraine Airlines flight PS 752 departed Tehran airport on 8th January. Three minutes later it crashed. There were 176 passengers/crew on board. Mostly Iranians, Ukrainians and Canadians. Within hours, Western media were quoting anonymous "Iraqi intelligence officials" that Iran had shot the plane down "likely by accident". The US State Dept, and their proxy NGOs, echoed this theory. A great rundown of who said what and when can be found on Moon of Alabama . Despite at first denying these accusations, the Iranian government has since admitted to "accidentally" downing the plane. Their statement can be read here (or here in the original Farsi). Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was out of radio contact with his commander and "panicked" upon seeing the fast-moving object on radar. Response to the admission has come from many world leaders. Justin Trudeau called for "further investigation", Vladimir Zelensky demanded Iran take "full responsibility", whilst Boris Johnson called it "an important first step". The US has already announced further sanctions. Reports are already coming in of "unrest" and "protests" in the wake of this admission. The Guardian and Newsweek, among others, claiming young people especially are tired of the leadership demanding "resignations and prosecutions" (we are, as yet unable to confirm these protests took place).

So what does this mean for the region as a whole?

Will this – as Boris Johnson said – be "first step to de-escalation" in the region? Will there be extensive protests? Will Iraq now rescind their demand the US leave their country?

As always, discuss below.


Protect ,

Sabotage can take many shapes and forms. Remember when the Syrian army was fooled into shooting down a Russian surveillance aircraft with 15 people onboard?
Those imposing punitive santions and continually threatening a desstructive war must definitely be held responsible for the extreme conditions they have created.

Charlotte Russe ,

The conditional word "if" often is used to begin describing the most horrific events. If they hadn't been driving the night the other car careened into their lane; if they didn't go into that store shortly before the robbery; if they didn't go sailing during an awful storm; if Trump didn't order the assassination of General Soleimani 176 innocent civilians would still be alive; and if all imperialist wars would stop collateral murder would also end.

An Iranian Officer mistook the plane for a hostile missile and made the "bad decision" to open fire. He said he "wished" he "was dead" when he learned about the downing of the aircraft. There were 82 Iranians aboard the Boeing Jet.

Most on the plane were graduate students from Canada. I was not aware that Canada is home to a large Iranian diaspora, with some 210,000 citizens of Iranian descent.

"The country is also a popular destination for Iranian graduate and postdoctoral students to study and conduct research abroad, which is why many students were on the flight, returning to university following the winter break.

There is also no direct flight between Canada and Iran, and the Ukraine International Airlines flight from Tehran to Kiev and then to Toronto is popular because it is one of the most affordable options for the journey."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51053220

KneelB4Zod! ,

Not mentioned before – and it is another reason why I still consider that the incident is not just human error but sabotage: In 6 months embargo on weapon sales to Iran will expire and the country will be able to buy S-400, Iskanders or fighter jets. Quite good reason to awake sleeping agent

Philpot ,

Are the Integrity Initiative hard at work on here?

David Macilwain ,

Your post merely adds to the feeling something very very odd has gone on here, as the resonances with the MH17 atrocity are uncanny. If the Ukrainian army had come out and admitted, in only two days, that their unit from Lviv had accidentally hit MH17 instead of the plane Putin was allegedly travelling in over the same area, then things may have been very different. But of course they didn't, and didn't need to, as fighter jets had done the job for them anyway. On the other hand, had the Separatists trying to defend the population from Kiev's air campaign from fighter jets and military transports accidentally hit MH17 they would have been the first to admit it. Those claiming they were responsible, before Higgins concocted his silly story, admitted that it would have been a "tragic accident" – as Morrison has described this latest crash – but soon started blaming them. Talk of Kiev being partly responsible for allowing MH17 to fly, off course, over an active war zone, also went unheard.

But of course the two events are not the same, and not connected, or are they?

Did the Ukrainian plane have its transponder turned on? Was it the first plane to leave Tehran following the Iranian missile volleys? Would a cruise missile have been launched from Afghanistan towards the firing site in Kermanshah, passing over Tehran? What went on in the control tower of Imam Khomeini airport?
Nothing is clear yet, except "cui bono".

Dimly Glimpsed ,

Matt,

Have you considered the arguments and evidence which show the BUK missile in the MH17 case came from the Ukranian government-controlled battery?

Also, from what I can recall, the Americans and NATO countries routinely lie about everything. Mike Pompeo, the American Secretary of State, for example, in a April, 2019 speech at Texas A&M, made the following statement about the CIA:

"I was the CIA Director – We Lied, We Cheated, We stole".

Trump lies so routinely that lying is now becoming normalized in American society.

The "Allies" appear to be lying not only about MH17, but also about the Skripal case, the charges (backed up by lies by the U.N. agency OPCW) that Assad used sarin and/or chlorine in Douma, that Huawei technology is insecure because there are hidden back doors (true of Cisco with CIA back doors, but no one can prove any exist in Huawei), etc.

Perhaps you recall that the "Allies" launched a war of aggression against Iraq, based on the false charge that Saddam had nuclear weapons, and backed up by a sloppy and juvenile "sexed up dossier" that Tony Blair's government used as justification, and lies such as the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassdor claiming that Saddam's soldiers threw babies out of incubators.

Perhaps you recall that the USA used illegal chemical weapons such as white phosphorus in its extermination of the civilian city Fallujah during the American attack on Iraq. Perhaps you are aware that the "Allies" hide and deny Israel's proven use of white phosphorus on the captive Palestinian population, along with using the Palestinians as human shields and killing unarmed Palestinian women and children targeted intentionally by snipers.

If your interest is an objective view of matters, the hopefully you'll consider the track records of the players involved. Iran has invaded no other country in hundreds of years. The US is the world champion of invading other countries, and Britain and France have disgraceful histories of colonization and genocidal crimes against native peoples, as does America and other members of the "Allies", including Australia and Canada.

I could go on, and on, and on. The "Allies" are much more guilty of killing and lies than Iran.

As you may know, the CIA has assassinated a number of country leaders, including several in South America, by bombing planes. Rumor is that is what the CIA had planned for Evo Morales, which is why he fled to Mexico, knowing the USA and traitors in the Bolivian army were planning just such an assassination.

I'm also having a bit of difficulty recalling many lies by the Iranians. On the other hand, from mere recollection alone, I could keep typing for yours adding to a list of lies I do recall by America and the Europeans, many of which were coverups of bloody insurrections, assassinations and murders.

Bottom line: I don't trust anything America or the Europeans say. They are biased, have a track record of lying, and have a history of unclean hands. The Iranians, on the other hand, have a much better record in all those areas.

Paul ,

It was the same in Iran back in 1953 with the sudden appearance of angry and armed 'anti a Communists' protesting the government, winding up the political time bomb. It cost the State Department a lot of money – although not as much as spent on the Shah! Later these mercenary protesters, often special forces types seeped in brutality upped the PR with flowers and colours as symbols. In other places, where they faced serious opposition they reverted to the dirtiest of tricks involving snipers creating havoc, as in Kiev in 2014. Something similar seems to be happening in Hong King and Tehran but then did anybody expect the Empire to roll over?!

Brian Steere ,

I don't see reason to doubt this. A suspicious mind can conjecture – but why would Iran admit this unless they verified that it happened?

If combatants are killed in the line of duty it is part of the risk of combat.
When civilians are killed in error it is tragic.

War and fear of attack are extremely dangerous. 'Friendly fire' so called, is not uncommon.

In this sense the token 'revenge' has backfired.

But the full facts may not be known.

KneelB4Zod! ,

As I wrote, it's strangely convenient for the hegemons. Now Trump even tweets in Farsi, supporting Tehran protest.

I have no doubt that the plane was downed by Iranian missile. But was it an error? It's not outside of realm of possibilities that it was a sabotage. Mole withing air defense unit nearby Tehran's civil airport.

Under the current circumstances it's less damaging for Iran to take responsiblity for the tragedy then admit that the internal security was severely breached and infiltrated by hostile forces.

Jack_Garbo ,

As has already been stated, the Iranian attacked on two US bases was not the "revenge" for Soleimani's assassination, but a show of 1. Iranian tactical ability (warned first, no casualties), 2, the beginning of revenge for Soleimani and others killed by the US presence. It has only begun.
Don't think like a (short-term) Westerner, but like a long term Easterner. The US will eventually be driven out, the Iranians will them them good-bye.

KneelB4Zod! ,

Considering the fact how convenient the whole airliner incident is for the hegemons I still have doubts if it was just human error.

Pompeo tweeting support for Tehran protest which follows today's announcement. British ambassador arrested amid participation in it. It pseaks loud imo

JudyJ ,

If the footage of the missile striking the plane is genuine, I remain unclear as to why someone would have been, it would appear, randomly pointing a phone camera at a black night sky on the outskirts of Tehran at 6.30 in the morning and, by sheer coincidence, caught the moment of impact. The way the camera was being aligned would suggest the person behind the camera was anticipating a particular event and was eager to capture it on film. Maybe I'm being unduly suspicious. Of course we don't know for sure that the footage in question was indeed genuine.

Mike Leach ,

I don't think there's any such thing as 'unduly suspicious' in the present state of the world.

Derek ,

Iran claim the missiles were launched by an individual who was out of radio contact with his commander and "panicked" upon seeing the fast-moving object on radar.

More than one missile was launched so is it not possible that's why the person was filming?

Loverat ,

One thing I think I mentioned on another thread as cynical as it is, this plane possibly might have been shot down deliberately by Iran. If you think about it, this event has distracted and possibly taken the 'sting' out of the main event. And of course if the West knows the plane was shot down by Iran deliberately it could have been a message not to retaliate for the air base attack. Iran admitting it accidentally shot down the plane might take some of the force out of my argument/ possible theory but then again this might be an effort to take out the 'secondary sting or risk of retaliation. Hope that makes some sense!

Let's face it, there are other states aside from US and UK might create or stage 'events'. As for demos in Iran, can't really see why this would be a major issue for Iranians, or if so likely to be significantly talked up by Pompeo and extremist war rags like the Guardian.

But who really knows at this stage?

Martin Usher ,

Actually, it ruined what should have been a perfect response. I honestly thought their air defenses were more sophisticated than they were, in particular that there was a level of coordination between individual units and a command and control center that could verify whether a threat was real or not. We can speculate about whether this event was engineered or not but as far as I'm concerned its a screwup of the same order as the Vincennes incident. (The only different being that the Iranians didn't have a news crew taping 'our boys' in action while they paniced and overreacted.)

Sad as this is I don't think it will happen again. Needless to say we in the US will make as much political capital about it as we can but then its our job.

[Jan 11, 2020] A leak from the Ukrainian side about the investigation: Compare the behaviour of Iranian authorities and Ukrainian Provitional Goverment(junta) in case of MH17

Jan 11, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Another leak (ukr) from the Ukrainian side of the investigation gives some hints on how the plane came down (machine translation):

"We took up the restoration of fragments of the aircraft. It was necessary to determine how these pieces of metal dumped into a huge pile should be interconnected.

The intrigue remained until late. The fact is that there were no damages on most parts of the aircraft. There was no explosion and no fire in the engines or on the wings. It is possible that the plane could fall almost intact. Unlike the remains of the Boeing MN-17, there were no immediately visible signs of defeat by combat elements on the fuselage and wings. A lot of damage to the case is the result of a fall. But after laying out all the fragments of the aircraft, it became obvious that the bottom of the cockpit was missing.

Among the wreckage, fragments of the upper part of the cabin were identified. And then the find finally took place - at about 22 hours. On a fragment of the cockpit, we found holes in the damaging elements of the warhead of the rocket, which pierced the skin. We found! For the first time, direct evidence appeared in this case, which made it possible to prove what caused the death of the aircraft. For us it was a turning point.

So what we now understand:

Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the fuselage, directly under the cockpit.

A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.

While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this remains to be clarified.

We continue to lay out fragments of the aircraft until the complete collection of all surviving parts.

We expect that today we will gain access to all objective control data.

In cooperation with Iranian colleagues, we get the impression that those who contact us sincerely want to help themselves and figure it out, in general, there are no problems. Let's hope that such a mood and working contacts remain with us now."

[Jan 11, 2020] Iran didn't cancel flights because they most likely had an agreement with the ZioAmericans allowing them to attack the US bases, and were told there would be no retaliation.. Were Iran communications disrupted by the cyberattack?

Notable quotes:
"... 5 eye propaganda is vile. Other people's propaganda is not much better. No one sane trusts their government. ..."
"... Why was Zelensky ( Pres. of the Ukraine ) being so reasonable and calm about the whole situation, telling everyone not to jump to conclusions, when his handlers ( zioamerica ) were crying shoot down almost from the beginning. ..."
"... What was the reason for the plane's hour long delay at the airport ? ..."
"... Zelensky is out of the US orbit as his sponsor Kholomojsky seems to have decided that his business interests are with Russia - but apart from that, Zelensky is a Russian speaker, with a Jewish background, and not part of the Western Ukraine Bandera proto-fascists. ..."
"... Don't commercial aircraft have radar identification beacons on them ? ..."
"... As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to attack on American bases, it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground flights following the attack. ..."
"... It is also wise that Iran accepts the guilt and apologizes. I am sure that they will do more. ..."
"... The IRGC must learn this: modern warfare is not fought with bravery, but with cold-blooded rationality. We're not in ancient warfare anymore: this is industrial warfare, waged with machines which kill humans (and destroy other machines) in a mass scale with maximum efficiency, operated by mathematical calculations at superhuman speeds. This is the era of the nerds, not of the macho men. ..."
"... So, before indoctrinating its soldiers with random religious texts and tales of martyrdom, the IRGC better teach them to fill a fucking log and keep their nerves in place first. And welcome to the 21st Century. ..."
"... According to reports, SIX of these people were NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS. Visiting IRAN. At the same time. on the same plane. What are the chances that it's coincidence? ..."
"... Assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists ..."
"... There is only so much human error can explain. If the missile in the famous video is what caused the crash, note that it was flying EAST. The jamming incident explains a lot. Several outbound civilian flights had taken off in the late afternoon following the same flight pattern, so WHY at that time? Also, why does Trump not want to share the intel, saying people have no right to see it? ..."
"... Lots of idiots here. Be glad they accepted responsibility within a reasonable time frame. This is what happens in a WAR. Who drove the Iranians to this point? They certainly have my respect, unlike those cowboys. ..."
"... Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian flights were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also night take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . . ..."
"... Staying in the domain of facts rather than speculation and having worked on the design of air defence systems, I can add a tidbit of info. TOR system can be in a configuration without a surveillance radar, with only a tracking radar. Then when not integrated into a wide area system with centralised control, the crew of such system cannot track aircraft, they can only detect aircraft. Detecting an approaching aircraft/target, tracking it from the moment of detection and not really knowing where it originated from is probably why the crew had to make a faithful decision in a very short time. ..."
"... General note to self: never fly Boeing and stay away from flights which approach any of the war zones that JUSA regularly creates. ..."
"... On the reported taking advantage by Germany to target Iran as terrorist state and ask for more sanctions, we must recall Germany's responsibility along with the US, Canada and current Ukrainian regime, for the terrorist events which gave place to the nazi coup d´etat in the Ukraine, amongst them, the Maidan Snippers event, but not only, also those enumerated by me in another comment above. ..."
"... Given Pompeo's curriculum, it was probable that the CIA had the wrong conjunctural assessment of Iran. They expected that a "silent majority" would revive the riots of some months ago, leaving the theocracy one step closer to collapse. Unless there was indeed serious consideration about using "tactical" nukes, that's the only rational explanation for Soleimani's murder. ..."
"... Right after the funeral day, Trump quickly sought contact with the Ayatollah to negotiate a scale down. Rumor says he even agreed with a "proportional" retaliation against an American target. And then the Iraqi parliament debacle happened, which put the USA in a very embarassing situation. ..."
"... It would be very optimistic to assume that JUSA would just gloat at this accident and milk it for its maximum propaganda value ..."
"... " An attacker could potentially pivot, Santamarta says, from the in-flight entertainment system to the CIS/MS to send commands to far more sensitive components that control the plane's safety-critical systems, including its engine, brakes, and sensors. Boeing maintains that other security barriers in the 787's network architecture would make that progression impossible." ..."
"... IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy. ..."
"... Certainly they were on high alert and it could have been an individual error combined with a system malfunction, the aircraft straying out of its commercial lane or any confluence of events. Something may be lurking beneath the surface. The media jumped on and pushed the story hard and that always leaves me suspicious. The borg was correct and knew what happened immediately and reported it truthfully. An even stranger event. ..."
"... What an epic mistake to not close the airspace. I'm impressed that the IRGC admitted full responsibility and even gave a detailed description of the human error. Adding in the EW jamming and it is easy how this could happen. What a horrible tragedy. ..."
"... "The cyberattacks -- a contingency plan developed over weeks amid escalating tensions -- disabled Iranian computer systems that controlled its rocket and missile launchers, the officials said. Two of the officials said the attacks, which specifically targeted Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps computer system, were provided as options after Iranian forces blew up two oil tankers earlier this month." ..."
Jan 11, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

somebody , Jan 11 2020 12:46 utc | 126

Posted by: ChasMARK | Jan 11 2020 12:26 utc | 122

Of course they did. But Iranians should have seen that coming. Some people still think they can continue with this stupidity - like Jerusalem Post on the tit for tat "Kindergarten" strategy .

What they are doing is "showing capabilities" and testing weapons systems. They had a "game" of conventional war justified by "not killing anybody". Well they did. Both parties. Real all out conventional war is impossible without mass casualties on all sides. And all out unconventional/assymetric war just draws out the misery.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 12:21 utc | 119

I was talking about the ability to be sad and apologize. I prefer not to have a religious authority dictating my private life.

5 eye propaganda is vile. Other people's propaganda is not much better. No one sane trusts their government.


William Gruff , Jan 11 2020 12:49 utc | 127

Norwegian @120

Sadly, no facts. Perhaps if we had full bios on the passengers we could tally up how many had done undergrad studies at George Washington University, but spooks usually have fictional biographies so I am not sure how much help that would be.

Fog of War , Jan 11 2020 13:02 utc | 128
Some points to consider:
somebody , Jan 11 2020 13:15 utc | 129
Posted by: Fog of War | Jan 11 2020 13:02 utc | 128

Zelensky is out of the US orbit as his sponsor Kholomojsky seems to have decided that his business interests are with Russia - but apart from that, Zelensky is a Russian speaker, with a Jewish background, and not part of the Western Ukraine Bandera proto-fascists.

Don't commercial aircraft have radar identification beacons on them ?

If your system is not compromised and can read it.

The Boeing was hit by a Tor system, related to the BUK of MH17 fame. There were a lot of flights over Teheran airport at the time. Can anyone find out if the Ukraine Airlines flight was the only Boeing and is the hack specific to Boeing?

Innocent Civilian , Jan 11 2020 13:16 utc | 130
It is sad that the real victims of this escalation so far has been 176 souls that have nothing to do with this affair. As Iran has already notified the Swiss embassy prior to attack on American bases, it is curious why Iran did not close its airspace and ground flights following the attack.

I personally put the blame on USA for its disproportionate responses in the entire affair as it created the conditions that lead to this horrible accident, but Iran could have been more careful by considering that human factors can prove catastrophic under tense circumstances.

It is also wise that Iran accepts the guilt and apologizes. I am sure that they will do more.

vk , Jan 11 2020 13:17 utc | 131
IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: The officials, including Aviation authorities, who kept denying the missile hit, are not guilty. They made those remarks based on what they knew . We are to blame for everything.

Well well - there's always the human factor. As the saying goes: there's no fool-proof plan. Days of investigative speculation undone by (probably) a small bureaucratic error which resulted in a lack of communication.

The IRGC must learn this: modern warfare is not fought with bravery, but with cold-blooded rationality. We're not in ancient warfare anymore: this is industrial warfare, waged with machines which kill humans (and destroy other machines) in a mass scale with maximum efficiency, operated by mathematical calculations at superhuman speeds. This is the era of the nerds, not of the macho men.

So, before indoctrinating its soldiers with random religious texts and tales of martyrdom, the IRGC better teach them to fill a fucking log and keep their nerves in place first. And welcome to the 21st Century.

somebody , Jan 11 2020 13:18 utc | 132
Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2020 13:15 utc | 129

add: Is Boeings Friend or Foe System different from other Airlines? Or does commercial Boeing simply look a lot like military Boeing?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_AEW%26C

dave , Jan 11 2020 13:22 utc | 133
1/2

According to reports, SIX of these people were NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS. Visiting IRAN. At the same time. on the same plane. What are the chances that it's coincidence?

https://twitter.com/Kerryactivism/status/1215413680281718785

dave , Jan 11 2020 13:22 utc | 134
Assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists
Jonathan W , Jan 11 2020 13:28 utc | 135
There is only so much human error can explain. If the missile in the famous video is what caused the crash, note that it was flying EAST. The jamming incident explains a lot. Several outbound civilian flights had taken off in the late afternoon following the same flight pattern, so WHY at that time? Also, why does Trump not want to share the intel, saying people have no right to see it?
Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 13:40 utc | 139
129 "Can anyone find out if the Ukraine Airlines flight was the only Boeing and is the hack specific to Boeing?"

One Embraer, seven Airbus, two Boeing.https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/ukrainian-flight-ps752-crashes-shortly-after-take-off-from-tehran/

The other Boeing took off headed for Hong Kong only seconds before the Ukraine flight. Looks to be the green flight path that turns back east southeast shortly after takeoff. The Ukraine flight was the only Boeing that took the northern flight path.

Ian2 , Jan 11 2020 13:46 utc | 141
Lots of idiots here. Be glad they accepted responsibility within a reasonable time frame. This is what happens in a WAR. Who drove the Iranians to this point? They certainly have my respect, unlike those cowboys.
Really?? , Jan 11 2020 13:46 utc | 142
Jan @ 40

"Or could Iran have been enticed to make a false admission to protect Boeing's reputation and/or the Ukraine airline's reputation. Perhaps a carrot of lesser severity in the new sanctions?"

This doesn't seem to comport with what we know/have been told about how the Iranian govt and religious leadership works.

Still it does seems an extraordinary lack of common sense that commercial civilian flights were allowed to fly around under conditions of such high tension in the country. Also night take-offs. Better to wait until morning . . .

I am so, so saddened to hear of the cause of this terrible incident, and I do blame it on the USA, which started this provocation of Iraq-Iran.

Kiza , Jan 11 2020 13:47 utc | 143
Staying in the domain of facts rather than speculation and having worked on the design of air defence systems, I can add a tidbit of info. TOR system can be in a configuration without a surveillance radar, with only a tracking radar. Then when not integrated into a wide area system with centralised control, the crew of such system cannot track aircraft, they can only detect aircraft. Detecting an approaching aircraft/target, tracking it from the moment of detection and not really knowing where it originated from is probably why the crew had to make a faithful decision in a very short time.

Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) looks great in theory but has many drawbacks (relatively easy spoofing) therefore is generally not relied upon, especially not by the second grade EW countries. I remind everybody how, during 1st Gulf War, US air defence in Kuwait shot down (at least) one British bomber (killed pilot);returning from a mission in Iraq. That much for IFF even within first EW grade countries of NATO.

Stand-alone air defence units (not integrated) in a very complex air space environment (with civilian air traffic in the air, possible drones, cruise missiles, low observability military planes, etc etc) are a definite recipe for disaster. Trying to avoid the cost of air traffic disruption (or loss of overflight fees) despite high risk of an even bigger cost happened in Ukraine already (MH17) and Iran did not learn from it. (It does not matter who shot down MH17 Ukraine is responsible). Whoever did not close down the civilian air traffic after shooting missiles at US targets is really responsible for this tragedy, slightly more than JUSA. But governments never learn because their power protects them from the need to learn.

General note to self: never fly Boeing and stay away from flights which approach any of the war zones that JUSA regularly creates.

Sasha , Jan 11 2020 13:52 utc | 144
On the reported taking advantage by Germany to target Iran as terrorist state and ask for more sanctions, we must recall Germany's responsibility along with the US, Canada and current Ukrainian regime, for the terrorist events which gave place to the nazi coup d´etat in the Ukraine, amongst them, the Maidan Snippers event, but not only, also those enumerated by me in another comment above.

Also we must add Germany's responsibility in the war information which gave place to the justification of the destruction of former Yugoslavia as a way of getting rid of an European superpower inclined to the Est which could oppose current German hegemony in Europe, which, being Germany an Us occupied country, only means US hegemony over Europe.

Go preparing for the "renaissance" of the IV Reich and its evolution, and not only in hairdos....

Germany, along with UK, is responsible for all the evil has happened in Europe since the falling of the Spanish Empire. GLADIO and many other operations come to mind.

Thus, better shut up when labelling others as terrorists...

A P , Jan 11 2020 13:59 utc | 145
Time to remind the pro-US/Zionist trolls here that, as war criminal GHW Bush was quoted, the US will never admit it is wrong, let alone trying to fulfill stupid ancient texts for their sheeple Zionist Jew and right-wing Christian voters and political funders (think Rothschild, Adelson). The End of Days may not become reality, but a Yinon Plan/AIPAC, Greater Israel is all too likely a prospect. All because Lord Balfour didn't have the balls to tell Lord Rothschild to go pound salt, and the US was too stupid to avoid taking up the Zionist cause after WW2.

The US has SO MUCH more to apologize for, like LIES about WMD's, Syria gas attacks, Kuwaiti babies thrown from incubators, South American death squads, reaching back beyond "Remember the Maine".

So the US/ZATO needs to take the hundreds of logs out of their own eye before endlessly demanding Iran take the sliver from their eye.

The US is run by lying, hypocritical psychopaths, from the Oval Office down through Congress, to the bowels of the NSA/FBI/CIA/Mossad and the Pentagon.

Oū Sī / 區司/ Usman , Jan 11 2020 14:00 utc | 146
.
. The greatest irony of it all:
-- That the US almost never compensate the families or counties hit by 'mistakes' or killed as 'collateral damage'.
-- That the Iran authorities and judicial system make some compensation obligatory.
-- That Iran has been cut off from the means to aquire US dollars or Euro and have been cut off from all international payment systems: Any compensation would have to be paid in Iranian reals and used within Iran.
. Good for future tourism by airplane travel to Tehran?
Piotr Berman , Jan 11 2020 14:03 utc | 147
Saying Soleimani was a hero for fighting ISIS is just like saying Hitler was a hero for fighting Stalin.

The only world player that has been unselfishly good in recent memory is Cuba by sending its doctors throughout the.world and Venezuela under Chavez sending oil to poor people including those in the US.

Posted by: CognitiveDissonance | Jan 11 2020 5:25 utc | 15

--------

One can make any classifications of "good, but not unselfishly", "kind of good" and so on, but this is a pernicious type of whataboutery. Basically, we should find reasons to be obedient subjects of the Empire, yes, the Empire is not good but almost no one is much better, so find better deals for seeds for our little garden, focus on that, convince others not to do anything either.

To understand the Empire, one has to read stories about school bullying. A charismatic kid accumulates a circle of friends and a victim. The victim is harassed, his/her stuff damaged, and a creative combination of verbal humiliation, physical humiliations and outright assaults keeps the circle amused. If anyone defends the chosen victim, the efforts redouble against that person, so the majority is either actively sycophantic (bravo, Mr. Johnson, bravo, Mr. Trudeau!) or sullen. But not too sullen (OK job, Madam Merkel, we will punish you only mildly). That can raise the wrath of the dominant clique too.

It is often the case that the victim is "not perfect". And the removal of the top bully does not have to change the school into paradise. But doing nothing is a coward option, however "sensible". It is also stupid, nobody can deliver paradise, but avoiding hell is totally possible, so why we should be content with hell?

vk , Jan 11 2020 14:09 utc | 150
@ Posted by: CognitiveDissonance | Jan 11 2020 5:25 utc | 15

Evidence available strongly indicates Soleimani was indeed extremely popular in Iran.

It is probable the USA expected brand new and stronger anti-government manifestation in the streets of Tehran after he was murdered. Pompeo claimed right after - in cheerful tone - that "Iran is nearer regime change after Soleimani's assassination".

Given Pompeo's curriculum, it was probable that the CIA had the wrong conjunctural assessment of Iran. They expected that a "silent majority" would revive the riots of some months ago, leaving the theocracy one step closer to collapse. Unless there was indeed serious consideration about using "tactical" nukes, that's the only rational explanation for Soleimani's murder.

His hopes of regime change were quickly dashed by the millions who showed up in the streets of Tehran for his funeral. He was indeed very popular, the official propaganda was true: Soleimani's reputation really preceeded him.

Right after the funeral day, Trump quickly sought contact with the Ayatollah to negotiate a scale down. Rumor says he even agreed with a "proportional" retaliation against an American target. And then the Iraqi parliament debacle happened, which put the USA in a very embarassing situation.

In the greater scheme of things, this accidental downing of a commercial plane was a very small price to pay. It's one of those once in a blue moon incidents where the imponderable overcame what 99.99% of the then available evidence indicated. It doesn't change the morality of the conflict: the USA still has to get out of Iraq, and Iran's cause (regardless of its theocratic regime) is still just. Or do you expect a prosperous Iran to rise from an hypothetic American occupation of the country?

The days of the Marshall Plan are still over. The USA can't nation build anymore - it simply doesn't have the resources (as it had in 1946).

Kiza , Jan 11 2020 14:11 utc | 151
It would be very optimistic to assume that JUSA would just gloat at this accident and milk it for its maximum propaganda value . Unfortunately, it is likely that the leading shitbags of the World will not fail to use the shell shock state of the Iranian air defense to bomb soon for the benefit of lower losses due to Iranian FUD. I can only hope that the Iranian air defense will recover it's mental state quickly or the loss of life will be much much bigger than one plane load. Soleimani was a nasty military character, but his style of organisational skills is sorely needed for a quick reorganisation of the Iranian air defence under clear and present danger.
Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 14:12 utc | 152
Passenger list.
https://www.unian.info/society/10822121-uia-publishes-full-passenger-list-for-flight-ps752-crashed-in-iran.html
Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 14:20 utc | 153
143 "Stand-alone air defence units (not integrated) in a very complex air space environment (with civilian air traffic in the air, possible drones, cruise missiles, low observability military planes, etc etc) are a definite recipe for disaster."

From my understanding, all Russian and perhaps previous to that society defense systems are made to be able to operate as stand alone units incase the network goes down. This appears to be what happened in Iran Whoever was commanding that unit, with coms down had make a decision with no input from the wider defense network.

US, five eyes and mossad are very good at covering their tracks at times, but modus operandi and narrative give them away.

Jonathan W , Jan 11 2020 14:26 utc | 155
You can always blame the airport for not shutting down the traffic but that is usually easier to say after the fact. Of course, you could shut down all air traffic across the globe as a precautionary measure. It is convenient to speculate retrospectively that - after the Iranian strike in Iraq - Tehran should have shut down its airport ( which it had except for a few flights).

This is where the theory of Iranian misinformation boomerangs: even if the state media had shown the Iranian strikes in Iraq on TV, what reason did anyone have to believe it?

Farsnews reported that 80 American soldiers died in those strikes but now the US says that was not true either. So what reason had anyone to believe anything. This is not comparable to the crash in Ukraine at all. There the plane was flying above the warzone, here the distance between Tehran and Iraq was about 800 km. Of course, it would be convenient for the US to command every airport in Iran to shut down....

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 14:31 utc | 156
"Now, nearly a year later, Santamarta claims that leaked code has led him to something unprecedented: security flaws in one of the 787 Dreamliner's components, deep in the plane's multi-tiered network. He suggests that for a hacker, exploiting those bugs could represent one step in a multi­stage attack that starts in the plane's in-flight entertainment system and extends to highly protected, safety-critical systems like flight controls and sensors."

" An attacker could potentially pivot, Santamarta says, from the in-flight entertainment system to the CIS/MS to send commands to far more sensitive components that control the plane's safety-critical systems, including its engine, brakes, and sensors. Boeing maintains that other security barriers in the 787's network architecture would make that progression impossible."
https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-787-code-leak-security-flaws/

What Boeing is saying here is admitting the plane can be taken over from the ground, or at least many things disrupted, but their security is that good nobody can break into it. I believe most Boeing aircraft send automated data back to Boeing (maintenance, faults and so forth) which may mean Boeing always has an open line into the aircraft. Boeing being part of US MIC.

Kiza , Jan 11 2020 14:49 utc | 157
Well Peter 153, you are right about the ability to operate stand-alone. But such is a fall-back tactic, not a to begin with tactic. When comms and the operations centre are destroyed no civilian aircraft are supposed to remain in the air. I did not read that all Iranian comms were down. I also did not read a statement that their radars were jammed. BTW, I have experienced radar and comms jamming by a US aircraft carrier and despite being targeted at military frequencies, it is disruptive to all civilian comms and civilian aircraft as well. Therefore, this plane would not have been flying under radio and radar jamming conditions.

I can only repeat the two obvious root causes: you expect a military retaliation but do not close down civilian air traffic and you scatter your air defense units unconnected to a centre (which essentially leaves considerable destructive power in the hands of below average brains connected to twitchy fingers at least somewhere in such scatter - imagine the statistical risk level).

Never assume that this could never happen in your country. Only countries without governments are safe. The only difference is whether the government admits or not, TWA800 anyone?

dltravers , Jan 11 2020 14:50 utc | 158
I can sit at home with my laptop and monitor almost all commercial air traffic in my area with an antenna, ABS software, and a RTL SDR donegal. It is not that difficult and the internet is not needed as long as the aircraft withing withing range of the antenna. They transmit in 1.090 gigahertz. RTL-SDR Tutorial: Cheap ADS-B Aircraft RADAR

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy.

Certainly they were on high alert and it could have been an individual error combined with a system malfunction, the aircraft straying out of its commercial lane or any confluence of events. Something may be lurking beneath the surface. The media jumped on and pushed the story hard and that always leaves me suspicious. The borg was correct and knew what happened immediately and reported it truthfully. An even stranger event.


Sasha , Jan 11 2020 14:56 utc | 159
@Posted by: Sasha | Jan 11 2020 14:05 utc | 148

To add....I tried hard to change my connection to Moscow, but no way, just imagine what my mood was on travelling by Kiev connection on a flag airline of a now nazi state being myself a real left, pro-Russian activist...

While in the long queue to check in and baggage dropp in, I dedicated myself to, out of curiosity, observe my Ukrainian flight companions, and must say they all seemed to me, by their face´s expression, peaceful and patient stance, innocent people totally misdirected by a bunch of oligarchic and foreign interests, mainly residing in North America...

One would say they mostly seemed and innocent crowd who then provided a quite peaceful flight and connection, i must adit also quite effectiveness by the Kiev airport personel related to timely departure and baggage organization...

On harsh contrast, I suffered a quite disturbing incident protagonized by some Iranians coming from the US in a flight to Teheran....I had been the first to place my handbaggage in the compartment up my sit, when some US diaspora Iranian women( clearly way over-empoverished by the US life style even for an European like me.. ) arrived, dropped my baggage out the compartiment so as to place theirs, leaving mine on the floor, without leaving any place left for it in the compartment, which obly me to put it further from I was sat, something I usually try to avoid as long as possible by sometimes standing up in the line to boarding while others remain sat. I complained in English ( which they clearly understood...) adding Spanish temperament, to no avail, such was their stuborness to prevail...

Then, during the flight, they kept talking to me as if nothing unpolite had happened, including the one sat by my side....I got to the conclusion that they had been obviously brutalized by living in the US, since the attittude of Iranians in Iran during all my travel was astonishingly polite and hospitable....

Red Ryder , Jan 11 2020 14:57 utc | 160
@121

A little bit of factual history for you to learn the facts of the situation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34767012

"Russia has signed a contract to supply Iran with sophisticated S-300 surface-to-air missiles. The contract got the go-ahead after international sanctions on Iran were lifted earlier this year, following a deal over its nuclear programme. Israel, the US and Saudi Arabia are all opposed to the missile contract. Russian officials say the first batch could be delivered 18 months after Iran has specified the S-300 type that it wants. Technical talks are continuing.

"The deal to supply the S-300 to Iran has not only been signed between the parties but it has already come into force," said Sergei Chemezov, head of Russia's Rostec arms firm, speaking at the Dubai Airshow-2015.

The $800m (£545m) contract, signed in 2007, was frozen by Russia in 2010 because of the international sanctions. President Vladimir Putin unfroze it in April.

Israel and the US fear the missiles could be used to protect Iranian nuclear sites from air strikes. The missiles can shoot down jets and other missiles hundreds of kilometres away. The S-300 can be used against multiple targets including jets, or to shoot down other missiles.

The S-300B4 variant - delivered to the Russian armed forces last year - can shoot down any medium-range missile in the world today, flies at five times the speed of sound and has a range of 400km (248 miles), Tass reports."

When the Russian deal was suspended Iran filed a lawsuit seeking billions of dollars in damages. Mr Chemezov said Saudi Arabia had asked Rostec repeatedly not to supply the S-300 to Iran. But he insisted that it was a defensive weapon. "So if the Gulf countries are not going to attack Iran... why should they be threatened? Because this is defence equipment," Reuters news agency quoted him as saying."

As for the offer in 2016 to sell the S-400 to Iran, which it turned down, here is one source: https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/08/25/10158377.shtml

Minister of defence of the Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI) Hossein Dehgan said: "We produce a system to ensure air safety at three levels. Available high-range deficiencies we made up for the purchase of s-300, we do not have any need to purchase other systems", -- quotes Agency Tasnim statement Dehgan.

The Iranian defense Minister Dehgan said that "Iran has the necessary defensive system that is able to ensure aerospace security of the country".


In the past year, 2019, Russia indicated it would offer to sell the S-400. "We are open for discussions on delivering S-400 Triumph air defense systems, including to Iran. Especially given that this equipment is not subject to restrictions outlined in UN Security Council's resolution issued on June 20, 2015," a representative of the press service of the Russian Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation told Sputnik on Friday."
Iran's own Presstv.com reported.
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/06/28/599649/Russia-Iran-S400

Sorghum , Jan 11 2020 14:59 utc | 161
Thanks b for the update and the excellent coverage.

What an epic mistake to not close the airspace. I'm impressed that the IRGC admitted full responsibility and even gave a detailed description of the human error. Adding in the EW jamming and it is easy how this could happen. What a horrible tragedy.

veto , Jan 11 2020 15:01 utc | 162
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 11 2020 12:07 utc | 114

Yes, this was my first guess as well. Who was actually on that plane. Ukraine is CIA/Mossad territory, but the Russians may have ways to find out who are on a flight to Kiev, and they may choose to pass that information on. Then again, it might just be a mistake as admitted.

dorje , Jan 11 2020 15:03 utc | 163
I am very surprised by this admission. Are the Iranians just closing the door on this Passenger jet and shifting the focus of conversation? Was there an actual mistake made by their Air Defense?

Having apologized for an event that occurred under the Fog of War Iran will definitely get credit from most Westerners as our governments never apologize. Why would a vicious psychopath apologize? We are all Palestinians' to our governments in the 'Free West'?

I don't believe this admission changes the dynamic now under way: the U.S. has no defense in the M.E. from Missile attack, if they continue to move forces to the ME to get to 100,000 (I calculate the Iranians as being able to field 100,000+ regulares and militia)it will be viewed as an act of war as will bringing in Patriot systems.

All eyes must now be on what Washington DOES not what it says as, to most observers, it always appears to be lying.

Bonus points for all westerners: can anyone think of a Western hero since DeGaulle or JFK? I can't and I really wish it were otherwise.

Kiza , Jan 11 2020 15:07 utc | 164
My final comment on the topic. I blame both the war instigators and the local decision makers for this tragedy. Yet, it is my strong impression that the person who pressed the button, the US Cretin in Chief and Jonathan W here share about the same level of reasoning.

It is immensely comforting to know that one's life may be in the hands of such individual at some point in life, hope NOT.

Piotr Berman , Jan 11 2020 15:13 utc | 165
The obvious result of several generations of recruiting/hiring military and/or military technicians for loyalty and obedience instead of intelligence. It is lucky for everyone that they found that out now, before nuclear weapons were available.

Posted by: Mike-SMO | Jan 11 2020 14:23 utc | 154

Too late! Do you think that Pompeo got recruited/hired for intelligence? Or any believer of the esoteric cult recently named "inter-agency consensus"? Not to mention that brainwashing in educational programs of our finest institutions (check bio of Fiona Hill) can dampen deleterious side-effects of intelligence (independent thinking and crap like that). They got the nukes, and a galore of other toys to play with, as we had seen in the case of Suleimani. And this process of creating esoteric supremacist doctrine is quite a bit longer than the history of Iranian revolution.

I used the word esoteric to mean a doctrine with multiple levels of initiation and knowledge, with deference to the higher levels. As Pompeo was explaining, there was a full consensus among the people of the highest knowledge level, so Congressional blokes should know their place. Most of them did, with a notable exception of a yokel from Utah.

Peter AU1 , Jan 11 2020 15:15 utc | 166
kiza This is from last year. A good chance that after the Iranian missile strike, US would have been trying to disrupt IRGC command and communication systems. IRGC manned the Tor unit and according to Iran their coms were out at the time of the incident.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/06/23/us-struck-iranian-military-computers-this-week/

"The cyberattacks -- a contingency plan developed over weeks amid escalating tensions -- disabled Iranian computer systems that controlled its rocket and missile launchers, the officials said. Two of the officials said the attacks, which specifically targeted Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps computer system, were provided as options after Iranian forces blew up two oil tankers earlier this month."

Kiza, adding this sort of crap in each comment really does give you away. "which essentially leaves considerable destructive power in the hands of below average brains connected to twitchy fingers"

[Jan 10, 2020] The level of disinformation produced by fake news outliets controlled by intelligence agencies is just staggering. You cna't beleve a single work in politically changed fortin covergarate

They really are able to turn white into black and black into white.
Notable quotes:
"... 1) Occurs as Iran is on brink of war with USA?; 2) Indications of USA using info war tactics; 3) airliner owner by Kolomoisky? 4) No communication with tower? 5) USA and Israel history of duplicity and narrative management (example: MH-17). ..."
"... NATO has weaponized aircraft accident investigations. Lawfare in combination with state terrorism. ..."
"... The Ukies know how to obliterate a debris field. MH-17 -- They used artillery for months to keep OSCE and Dutch officials away, and despite the locals working to protect the deceased and the debris, body parts have been found years later. ..."
Jan 10, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org
Rob , Jan 10 2020 17:46 utc | 2
There were also clear sightings of a missile to bring down TWA 800. Except it didn't. As an Navy Pilot , flight instructor and 737 captain this does not at 1st or 2nd glance appear to be a missile strike. Catastropic engine failure is my bet. They made most of the turn back to the airport before losing integrity or loss of thrust.

Good analysis.


vk , Jan 10 2020 17:52 utc | 3

US Claim of Ukrainian Boeing 737 Plane Being Hit by Missile Aims to Manipulate Stock Markets
On Wednesday, Boeing's shares plummeted by 2.3 percent ($3.4bn) after the Ukrainian Boeing 737-800 aircraft crashed in Tehran due to encountering a technical glitch.

On Thursday, the stock rose by 3 percent after unnamed Pentagon officials claimed that the Ukrainian passenger plane was most likely brought down by anti-aircraft missiles, and US President Donald Trump implicitly supported the claim. This has been read by analysists as an attempt to manipulate the stock market; a measure that would both overshadow Trump's failure in Iraq and save Boeing from bankruptcy.

Russia says no grounds to blame Iran for Ukrainian plane crash: TASS

I didn't find the article on TASS. Maybe it was in its Russian version, or in its TV/Radio/Podcast version.

I don't discard a terrorist attack from the inside, or sabotage of the plane by the Ukrainian government. What I think is missile attack can be pretty much discarded: the evidence the Iranians already have through their air control data discard any possibility, by sheer logic alone, that that was the case.

Unless, of course, the Iranians are lying. But then there isn't any cui bono for Iran to lie about it (if it was a mistake they wanted to cover, they could blame a random independent militia so as to give plausible deniability) with the technical malfunction argument, and now Russia's foreign minister Ryabkov is on the boat with it - so I don't see the cui bono for Russia either.

ninel , Jan 10 2020 17:58 utc | 4
A little guide to Iran's modern history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_murders_of_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_student_protests,_July_1999
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Iran

Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted down might not see him. Some of you choose to draw the magic cap down over your eyes and ears so as to make-believe that there are no monsters in Iran.

Per/Norway , Jan 10 2020 18:03 utc | 5
Posted by: ninel | Jan 10 2020 17:58 utc | 4

"Some of you choose to draw the magic cap down over your eyes and ears so as to make-believe that there are no monsters in Iran."

No, it is a lot easier than that.

Most of us dont get paid to post bs about the imperial enemies like you, and most off us still know how to use our brain.
That is it, nothing more nothing less.

PavewayIV , Jan 10 2020 18:10 utc | 6
Rob@2 - What do you make of the loss of ADS-B? Could a catastrophic engine failure take out both power buses? The ADS-B transceiver? I know a the turbine blades turn into little missile blades when they decide to leave the engine, but I have no idea of the way power is transferred when either bus or the standby goes down. I assume automatic? Are the transfer switches anywhere near the engines? Does the APU automatically fire up? I assume the ADS-B box is in the electronics bay, but where is the antenna?

karlof1 , Jan 10 2020 18:37 utc | 12
Thanks b! As I commented towards the end of the previous thread on this topic, the mundane evidence has already been shown. IMO, if a missile or bomb was employed, the Iranians would be yelling louder than anyone and the denials would be coming from BigLie Media instead of accusations. And as I answered psychohistorian, the massive coverage by BigLie media serves as narrative distraction from what's being obfuscated--casualties taken by Outlaw US Empire troops and the BDA presented by Iranian Military.

In that regard, The Saker's update sticks to the important facts of the now escalated ongoing war between Iran and the Evil Empire.


Jackrabbit , Jan 10 2020 19:11 utc | 17
Sorry, but there's good reasons to suspect foul play - as I and others have explained on the last thread.

1) Occurs as Iran is on brink of war with USA?; 2) Indications of USA using info war tactics; 3) airliner owner by Kolomoisky? 4) No communication with tower? 5) USA and Israel history of duplicity and narrative management (example: MH-17).

<> <> <> <>

Also: IMO it's dangerous for Iran to invite experts from a group of Western countries. What is likely to happen is that all the Western experts will be pressure to disagree with Iran's findings. CIA knows that people will believe the "group of experts!" over Iran.

!!

pleasebeleafme , Jan 10 2020 19:12 utc | 18
I don't know how anal Iran is about keeping track of ordinance but they must be pretty certain as to whether they downed the plane or not! Looks like they are being transparent and open. If they come out of this proving engine failure or something else then this could be a great pr coup.
There would be a lot of egg on many faces trying to explain how the intelligence is wrong yet again. I look forward to watching trudeau walk that back. Hopefully!
Gary , Jan 10 2020 19:17 utc | 19
One explanation is the Boeing was used as a human shield, a military plane hides behind a slow moving plane when detected. The ukrainians did it with the MH17 and the israeli with the russian plane and tried it with the attack on damascus. In both cases there was a lot of dis-info and blaming right away. But the iranian would have known what the target was, and mentioned it, so very unlikely.

Another question is the possibility a smaller missile only damaged the plane, also very unlikely.

Head of Iran Civil Aviation Organization Ali Abedzadeh exaggerates: "From a scientific viewpoint, it is impossible that a missile hit the Ukrainian plane."

"We can say that the airplane, considering the kind of the crash and the pilot's efforts to return it to Imam Khomeini airport, didn't explode in the air. So, the allegation that it was hit by missiles is totally ruled out," the official noted.

Walter , Jan 10 2020 19:25 utc | 20
Dude, when you're in Wyoming and see critter tracks down by the creek, you would assume it was Martians rather than antelope? Get real. The Ukie blew a crappy GE engine...they have this characteristic...

Stay real, use Occam's Razor + physical evidence. Otherwise it's distraction and TBS...

TJ , Jan 10 2020 19:26 utc | 21
@11 Ernesto Che

Craig Murray has been tracking a propagandist Wikipedia editor called "Philip Cross", here is the main article, but there are others on his site The Philip Cross Affair

karlitozulu , Jan 10 2020 19:38 utc | 24
ninel@ #4

here is a little reminder of Murica's recent history:

From 1945 until today - 20 to 30 million people killed by the USA

https://www.voltairenet.org/article204021.html

so, when you talk about monsters are you talking about yourself? ;)

Piotr , Jan 10 2020 19:39 utc | 25
ICAO is in contact with the States involved and will assist them if called upon. Its leadership is stressing the importance of avoiding speculation into the cause of the tragedy pending the outcomes of the investigation ...

ICAO may be a worthy organization (some staff changes seem to be warranted), but isn't it a bit too much?! If this is a sincere wish of democratically elected heads of democratic nations that they want to form a harmonious chorus and speculate, then no mundane power can stop them. BTW, what is wrong with Zelensky that he did not join? PTSD after the brutal telephonies calls? I would add it to the list of proven damages to the security of those several states that will be debated in the Senate. [end of snark, "several states" is the entity named in the so-called Constitution of The United States of America].

journey80 , Jan 10 2020 19:50 utc | 26
The flight originated in Teheran, bound for Kiev, but where was it before it arrived in Iran? It could have been sabotaged anywhere; then easy, right, to set off an onboard bomb by remote control from the ground? I'm sure Iran is crawling with Mosssad/MI6/CIA spooks.
ninel , Jan 10 2020 19:51 utc | 27
@karlitozulu

So you turn a blind eye to atrocities committed by other countries or peoples because the US government is responsible for the most? Did you even complete your high school education with that sort of reasoning? I never absolved the US or any other country. Simpletons like you seem to live in a black and white world in which one side must be chosen over the other. I feel unfortunate for b or anyone else who frequents this blog who does not view the world in such a profoundly problematic way.

I am far more informed about Iranian politics, history, culture and religion than most people here. Please don't allow your hate for the USA, well justified, to cloud your judgment.

Symen Danziger , Jan 10 2020 19:53 utc | 28
NATO has weaponized aircraft accident investigations. Lawfare in combination with state terrorism.

It's time for new rules and regulations. ICAO Annex 13 was drafted in different times. A rule based order is ancient history.

People should be able to chose their destination, route and carrier based on personal preferences like price and comfort, not on factors like the latest or next conflict zone, corruption in the countries along the route, military and political adventurism, etc.

The world has gone crazy.

Willy2 , Jan 10 2020 20:01 utc | 33
- As said before: I didn't believe for one second that that ukrainian plane was shot down. It would have given the US simply another stick to beat up the iranian government. I assume the iranians are smart enough to know that. They simply don't want to escalate the situation more. Although Iran has now the "moral high ground" it is still (very) vulnerable in a number of ways.

- I think the ukrainian tourists were small traders. I.e. buy stuff e.g. clothing and other "merchandise" in Teheran, bring it into the Ukraine and then sell that "merchandise" in Ukraine with a (big) profit.

William Gruff , Jan 10 2020 20:05 utc | 35
We have a distinguished professor in our midst! Quite unlike the lowly regular professors or inconsequential adjunct instructors that normally grace these pages. Let me kick back and get a tan from the brilliance pouring out of this one! Us high latitude types have to get our Vitamin D wherever we can.

As for my lack of criticism of Iran's government, that's the business of the Iranian people and none of my own. The Evil Empire attacking Iran? That, unfortunately, is everyone's business whether they want it to be or not.

Why is it that these wise guys from the West (Americans mostly) feel it is their duty to criticize everyone else's governments and cultures when the examples they are setting themselves are so appallingly bad? Maybe these distinguished critics of other peoples' ways of life feel that it is easier to fix those other peoples' societies than it is to fix their own. After all, they apparently feel that fixing other countries just requires some number of bombs, while fixing their own country... where do they even start? How do you fix perfection?

Jen , Jan 10 2020 20:06 utc | 36
I'd be curious to know whether the flight crew on board Flight PS752 had had sufficient rest. Three hours of resting do not seem like sufficient time but that depends on the journey the plane made to Tehran, the duration of that journey and where it started. Was the plane also checked for signs of wear and tear during the three-hour-plus pause?

Are UIA's owners (among them Ihor Kolomoisky) working their employees and hardware assets too hard and too cheaply as well?

Walter , Jan 10 2020 20:33 utc | 43
@ Rob | Jan 10 2020 17:46 utc | 2

Yes. I think so too. Looks like the engine ran at reduced thrust as they turned, and then failed entirely at below minimum control speed, with the expected result, asymmetrical stall, yaw, roll, bang.

There are pictures of severe erosion of what looks like compressor wheel from, presumably, ingestion of foreign material. Crap on the runway probably, and pencil-whipped maintenance, I should imagine.

foolisholdman , Jan 10 2020 20:36 utc | 44
bevin | Jan 10 2020 18:52 utc | 15

Reuters was bought by Rothschild some years ago.

PavewayIV , Jan 10 2020 21:01 utc | 49
journey80@26 - Kiev is Ukrainian Airlines main hub. The 737 arrived from Kiev earlier that morning and was returning there.

Jen@36 - No reason to do anything but a cursory safety check at Tehran. The airline's mechanics are in Kiev - anything beyond a normal pre-flight check involving maintenance would be done there, not Tehran. I doubt the crew was rested. That's not how UAI rolls on it's hub round-trips.

UAI is also bleeding money like crazy. They're nearly bankrupt and stole the money they collect from passengers for the Ukraine Civil Aviation Authority fees. Tens of millions USD. The new CEO promises to fix everything somehow. I guess by overworking crews, skipping maintenance and crappy service. Those are always money-savers for cheap, poorly-run airlines (prior to bankruptcy). Too bad. Supposedly it wasn't that bad of an airline when they first added passenger service to their existing cargo ops a decade ago, but has been going downhill ever since.

"Some real gems you got following your blog b."
So why are you here?

Peter AU1 , Jan 10 2020 21:39 utc | 56
Ocams razor... bookies odds... planes fall out o the sky from time to time for all sorts of reasons not related to malicious activity. What are the odds of this occurring in Iran shortly after an Iran strike on a US base.

The US has and does use terrorist tactics such as shooting down passenger jets. Trump threatened Iran with retribution against cultural sites and so forth (terrorist actions). Fifty two targets of fifty two ways of getting back at Iran.

What are the odds US would down a passenger jet in Iran within hours of Iran's strike against their base.

I have to go with US terrorist actions for that one. Similar to the protests in Iraq. The people had genuine grievances as do all good color revolutions but the were just too advantageous for the US for it not to be a made in the US color revolution style protest. We now know from the Iraq PM that is exactly what it was.

Walter , Jan 10 2020 22:05 utc | 58
The odds are unrelated unless there's agency. No agency has been credibly proposed. You know this is so, as the probability maths in se have been discussed previously @ MoA.

But of course, the US does murder all over the place, so if there is agency, then I tend to agree with the idea that "they" or their cohort in zionishland may be causative. What are the "odds" that the engine shown has severe blade erosion? Again 100% . Engine swallows scrap off the tarmac...a dependent relation, drop junk in engine, blades damaged, run at 100%, 100% "chance" of engine failure.

Repeating the essence of the matter of odds>

"Two events are independent, statistically independent, or stochastically independent if the occurrence of one does not affect the probability of occurrence of the other (equivalently, does not affect the odds). Similarly, two random variables are independent if the realization of one does not affect the probability distribution of the other."

ie without a dependent relationship the odds are whatever the odds are for engine failure and crash. And the other odds don't exist, because those events, the shooting, was not random or accidental. The odds of Iran firing rockets in reprisal was dependent on the US attacks, ie 100%

But if you're building engines at GE, or obsolete defective airplanes in Seattle, then of course the odds are that you devoutly wish it was a rocket up the tailpipe... Pay-day's come Friday, and all of that...

dave , Jan 10 2020 22:29 utc | 59
@PavewayIV

The APU will auto-shutdown for the following reasons:

Fire
Low oil pressure
High oil temperature / Fault
Overspeed

http://www.b737.org.uk/apu.htm

t , Jan 10 2020 22:38 utc | 62
Would like to see debunk the NYT video: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/video/iran-plane-missile.html

Have checked it myself (google earth etc) after being skeptical and the landmarks and sounds do indeed seem to match.

Bigben , Jan 10 2020 22:51 utc | 66
This link is worth reading. I can't play the video on my computer, but we will see if this theory gains traction during the next few days.

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/10/video-of-ukrainian-airliner-in-failed-landing-with-burning-engine-makes-trump-a-chump/

t , Jan 10 2020 23:02 utc | 69
@Poor,

I know NYT is a sham, and believe me I held my intellectual nose as I went into its site. It's not somewhere I frequent at all.

I did think about the point you made too, but there are 2 issues:

1) In the other 2 videos we see the plane as it's already burning, we don't see it in its "before" state. For me it's reasonable to imagine the hit on the impact caused some initial burning which was extinguished due to wind, and then started back up again a few moments after the NYT video ended and before the other 2 videos began.

2) If the NYT video is indeed doctored (and for me it would be a pretty convincing doctor), why wouldn't the creator simply keep the light going until the end of the vid?

Likklemore , Jan 10 2020 23:39 utc | 74
Iran to Announce Cause of Ukraine Jet Crash Tomorrow - Reports
Iran will announce the cause of the Ukrainian Boeing 737 crash after the accident investigation commission meeting on Saturday, the Fars News agency reported on Thursday, citing a source familiar with the matter.

"Tomorrow, after the meeting of the civil aviation accident investigation commission, the cause of the crash of the Ukrainian passenger plane will be announced", the source said.

Domestic and foreign parties, whose citizens died in the crash, will take part in the Saturday meeting, the outlet added. They will announce the reason for the accident after reviewing the preliminary report.

Ukraine says Iran cooperating with Boeing crash probe, calls to reduce media speculation

[.]Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko asked that the media not spread "unconfirmed" information on Friday, pleading with reporters to "reduce the level of speculation" while the probe continues. The experts are still analyzing evidence, looking at the bodies of the victims and the wreckage in hope of gaining insight into what took down Ukraine International Airlines Flight PS752, killing all 176 people on board.[,]
A User , Jan 11 2020 1:27 utc | 78
If no one had engaged with nine-drongos the thread would not have been disrupted and perhaps a useful dialog about the plane crash could have ensued. Those who did swallow the hook are just as guilty the original whatabouter of making this thread useless - good job. I would say exercise some discipline but that would be a waste of breath given the insecurities about their beliefs too many here apparently have. Letting some arsehole spout uninterrupted is a better indication of your point of view than anger, hysteria or ad hominem. Your stupidity has caused a thread to fail.
Red Ryder , Jan 11 2020 1:34 utc | 82
The Ukies know how to obliterate a debris field. MH-17 -- They used artillery for months to keep OSCE and Dutch officials away, and despite the locals working to protect the deceased and the debris, body parts have been found years later.

Patience, folks. The truth will come out.

Tom , Jan 11 2020 2:03 utc | 83
#57 posted by Poor Ramin Mazaheri who works for Press TV and has had many articles published on The Saker. He would describe the Iranian economy as socialist with Iranian charters. The link to the article below is an excellent source for information on Iran's economy.

What comes as a surprise to me is ICAO seems to have some integrity. It seems the US and friends haven't completely taken it over.

You can judge someone by their friends. NATO and the terrorists in Idlib have backed the killing of Soleimani. Who seems to enjoy killing civilians? The US just droned killed 60 civilians in Afghanistan. Information provided by the Iraqi prime minister showed the US is willing to use snipers and paid protesters to tear Iraq apart. They utterly destroyed Mosul and Raqqa without regard for civilians. The Syrian government has tried to avoid civilian deaths, which is why those who want to cause chaos in the region always accuses them of targeting civilians. So the US would have no problem getting MEK to or some other group to shoot the plane down but I'm leaning against that scenario.

The US has been planning to control oil for a long time. In 1975 a feasibility study was prepared for the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on International Relations on "Oil fields as military objectives", better described as bringing Democracy to the Middle East. Well, they did that sorta in Iraq, and now the Iraq government has politely asked the US to leave and the Iranians have demonstrated to them why they should leave. I'm not sure if the Ukrainian plane crashing is the next move the US has made in this great game, but I would put my money on shoddy management of the Ukrainian plane. Why not, the country is barely functioning. I doubt the plane was hit with a missle. More likely the US can't pass up an opportunity for stirring trouble and the MSM has no problem memory holing another lie.

http://thesaker.is/sanctions-on-khamenei-ending-the-myth-of-the-millionaire-mullah/

[Jan 10, 2020] Incidentally there is a new documentary "MH-17: In Search of Truth" doing the rounds of online alternative news media. The fellow who made the documentary, Vasily Prozorov, is a former SBU security officer

Jan 10, 2020 | off-guardian.org

Jen Flight PS752 passenger list shows that the huge majority of passengers carrying Iranian, Canadian and EU passports were Iranian.

These people were most likely visiting relatives in Iran over Christmas / New Year and were returning home. They were using UIA because the airline offers cheap flights between North America, Europe and western Asia with Kiev as a stop-over. Most of these people would have got off in Kiev and flown back to their home countries on other connecting flights.

Also as far as I know, the plane crashed not long after take-off. That, er, might suggest a problem with the plane itself. But the Boeing plane is not of the same model as the two Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes that crashed in Indonesia in 2018 and Ethiopia in 2019.

Incidentally there is a new documentary "MH-17: In Search of Truth" doing the rounds of online alternative news media. The fellow who made the documentary, Vasily Prozorov, is a former SBU security officer. It makes an interesting claim about the involvement of Western intelligence agencies and the SBU in creating and carrying out an incident and distraction, and in controlling and shaping the narrative and the disinformation.

I'm now starting to wonder if there may be a link between the MH17 shoot-down and the Skripal poisoning incident in March 2018. 3 -1 Reply Jan 9, 2020 9:42 PM


richard le sarc ,

No visual sighting of missile tracks, I see, and the video of the explosion then crash does not appear to show any. Details, mere details-the presstitute vermin are in full vilification propaganda mode already.

richard le sarc ,

I'm sorry-Iran ' refuses to hand over the black boxes'???!! To whom? To Bibi Nuttyyahoo, perhaps? Iran leads the investigation, so they decipher the 'black boxes'. The case of MH17 where the black box information has simply disappeared, tells you what you could expect if the West ever got their hands on these.

RobG ,

It's standard MO that the western powers take out civilian airliners.

It's called Murder Inc. and people in the West vote these psychopaths into power.

Gall ,

Never mind 9/11 where any blackbox data was most likely fabricated like the planes themselves.

Yonatan ,

Iran is apparently refusing to hand over the black boxes from the crashed plane.

should be

Under ICAO rules, Iran has no obliation to pass on the black boxes from the crashed plane to the maker. All it need do is pass them on to any laboratory of its chosing that has ICAO certification.

[Jan 10, 2020] Almost six years down the road we are still waiting for the MH17 satellite imagery that exist according to John Kerry. He was lying or the images and the narrative don't match. Hint: the second option.

Jan 10, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

A P , Jan 9 2020 18:35 utc | 28

Eyewitnesses saw one engine on fire before the crash, the plane still on a glide, but the 737-800 can fly on one engine, others have done so and landed safely.

There are two fire detection loops in each engine, plus extinguisher and other cut-off systems.
http://www.b737.org.uk/fireprotection.htm#Engines

This leads one to believe this was not a simple "engine on fire" situation.

If indeed it was a shoot-down, it was far enough away from the security-protected area of the airport, but not so high that a simple manpad-type weapon would be ruled out.

Another option is a small bomb placed in an engine cowl, which could be activated by altitude sensing or remote control (the plane wasn't very high, and the probable flight path well known). Big enough device to damage the engine and start a fire and maybe knock out the shut-off and fire suppression systems, but not big enough to be obvious. The engine fails, spits out turbine blades which damage the wing and puncture fuel tanks, damage the avionics for the whole plane. Rotor speeds will be in the multiple-10,000s RPM, so a LOT of kinetic energy when these things come apart.

Cui bono? The obvious answer is the Deep State Zionists in Israel and the US, so this may have been a Mossad operation, with or without the knowledge of the CIA or US military.

The fact Trumpty Dumbdy is playing the "deescalation card" so strongly could indicate he didn't authorize it and hopes to stop Nuttyyahoo/Mossad from frog-marching him into a war that would lose him the next election for being a flip-flopper on his last election "end the endless proxy wars" rhetoric.

"By deception shall you do war"... the Mossad mission statement.

Symen Danziger , Jan 9 2020 18:36 utc | 29

If US officials claim they are "confident", that actually means they don't have a shred of evidence. Intelligence lingo.

It's too early to call but POTUS claims Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737 near Tehran. On CBS fake News they suggest that the US have satellite imagery showing two SAM launches right before the crash.

Almost six years down the road we are still waiting for the MH17 satellite imagery that exist according to John Kerry. He was lying or the images and the narrative don't match. Hint: the second option.

To prevent crashing airliners, PSYOPS, sanctions, fake trials etc. steer well clear of the Ukraine, Ukrainians, Ukrainian airspace, the Ukrainian army, Ukrainian missiles and Ukrainian planes. You don't want to touch the Ukraine, not even with a very long stick.

We can be confident (in the normal sense of the word) that Bellingcat will be involved. Those NATO sponsored citizen propagandist will spend countless hours doctoring "evidence" and spinning neocon lies to their heart's content.

It must have been a Russian BUK that was driven on the back of a trailer by Putin's niece all the way from Kursk to Tehran, a direct order from the Kremlin!

In Turkey the trailer almost overran Bana Alabed and evil Assad provided some Novichok along the way to coat the throttles of the 737 in case the missile wouldn't hit its intended target. Boeing 737's don't fall from the sky on their own.

A fact finding mission from the OPCW has left The Hague for Tehran, they might even find some cannisters containing chlorine in the wreckage. It looks like they dropped from the air, they were not placed there manually.

The Dutch Safety Board is 100% independent from NATO influence and could conduct the accident investigation in an impartial way. No conflict of interest whatsoever.

The Ukraine will be part of the Joint Investigation Team that does the criminal investigation and to assure everything will be done according to law they will even get a veto right over the investigation.

Iran can be confident that justice will be served.

[Jan 08, 2020] Jan 8, 2020 Boeing 737-800 crash in Tehran: The Ukraine wants to do the 737 accident investigation. Why? To delegate it to the Dutch, get Bellingcat involved and blame it on Russia?

Notable quotes:
"... Mike Pence will blame Iran for MH17 and Iraq will be sanctioned for it. Don't you just love the rule based order? ..."
Jan 08, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Symen Danziger , Jan 8 2020 17:11 utc | 124

The Ukraine wants to do the 737 accident investigation. Why? To delegate it to the Dutch, get Bellingcat involved and blame it on Russia?

I am sure Bellingcat will find some shitty video online of a Russian Buk that backed up all the way from Kursk to Tehran without nobody else noticing it. Putin's niece was driving it by direct order from the Kremlin!

Mike Pence will blame Iran for MH17 and Iraq will be sanctioned for it. Don't you just love the rule based order?

[Jan 03, 2020] Power of propaganda and shooting down of the Malaysian "Boeing" by Alexander Petrakov

Jan 03, 2020 | www.rt.com

Original link went missing. Replaced with Solid facts 5 flaws that raise doubt over int'l MH17 criminal probe -- RT World News

Journalist Alexander Petrakov in his article he stated that the Russian Federation is a lot of evidence of innocence Russia and militias DND in the collapse of the Malaysian "Boeing".

"Your problem is that you have lived your whole life if there are rules. But there are no rules." Lorne Malvo (series "Fargo", 2014)

Intelligence agencies recruit pornographers to lead their disinformation operations, apparently because porn purveyors are so lacking in ethics they will tell public lies about anything

Optimists probably should not read any further, as well as those who think that the higher you sit the better you know. As well as pacifists, all those for thom "peace, friendship, and chewing gum" has the absolute value, some kind of religion. I can't convince those types for sure.

So I address this article to those who like me understand that it's time to start to think independently, be skeptical. And do not absorb blindly what TV talk heads are saying, no matter in what country you currently live and you nationality.

After the terrible catastrophe Malaysian liner we can see two major hypothesis, two points of views and two "truth": one is Russian position and the second version promoted by Ukraine and supported by the USA (or vice versa).

Which one you should believe more? The one that promoted by MSM of G7 countries or one that is promoted Russian MSM by and some other from the "the rest of the world". The answer, in fact, already evident. The "world-at-large" typically assumes that the "truth" is the view represented by CNN, Fox News and Euronews. The one that is written on the pages of The New York Times and republished by referring to "an unnamed source in the state Department" (or our very special Jen Psaki) Washington Post.

I personally am confident that most of as see that despite is growing evidence of innocence of rebels in the terrible tragedy the rest of the world these days and hours sees and hears another, "alternative" hypothesis only.

"Civilized world" talk about "persuasive evidence" of the guilt of the Russian Federation and the rebels of Donbass. Of evidence, however, is weak and contradictive. But it does not matter. If you repeat a lie clearly and firmly, with honest eyes on a brave face of various and sundry talking heads let's say one thousand times - people will say it's the fact; that it is the axiom based on which events need to interpreted. This isan all trick but it works. "Why, everybody knows about it", "all about this and they say".

This basic factor here is the power of PR. It is like artillery in was and as Napoleon noted God is firmly on the side of those with better artillery. Repetition lead to adoption of information and gradually a person begins to perceive it as his/her own point of view. Especially if the same information is provided by the whole spectrum of media outlets - TV, radio, Internet, and newspapers.

The average American, European, Japanese or Australian are brainwashed and belave that the rebels robbed the dead people on the aircraft and then cash credit card dead in Russia. While adding sure that this is "Russian rebels." As these "Russian rebels" learn or pick up in the open field access codes, passwords to the cards are for some reason forgotten. And why? In a democratic and free world video information rules and does not require any critical thinking: many of wisdom is much grief...

In each of the first CNN necessarily adds that "Russia is hampered the investigation", but it owes "effective and really help Ukraine," and that it "remained days or even hours, to show good will".

How can "interfere" investigation on foreign territory nobody elaborates. And why... everything is clear.

Then this phantasmagoria was added to the story of the companies Dutch and Malay over which bogumiles... and again refrain is "Russian".

From the first day of Maidan in the focus of the world media was not Ukraine, and Russia - all of us. Saying "Russia", "Russian" we have formed a new image in the eyes of the whole world". First it was the image of aggressor, now it is the image of criminal, terrorist. Not only conqueror, but the murderer.

And we are from the last bum up to the first person in the state did not understand, did not want to understand that our actions, words, "signals" nothing depends on it. Because no matter what he says and does Putin. It is important that will show and tell CNN.

Imagine that you are playing chess. On the table is a chess Board, the figures are placed in the proper order. You sit down and make a move, then another. All as it should be. And your opponent starts to move the pieces in random order. Then do sweeps them away from the Board and yells at the whole audience that he won, and you're a cheater and a crook, but when you open your mouth begins to beat you Board on the head.

So even if the Kremlin together wore embroidered shirts and jumped around the flag "right sector, the world would have seen more. That will show and tell him free and NeroLive media. That's why I did not believe and do not believe that our "restraint" someone and something to "keep" and anybody, and I will convince.

We talked about the inhumanity, the horrors of the moods of Nazism in Ukraine elites in the US and Europe. Told those who everyone knows and understands. And who simply don't care. This same "Russians" harness, hammer, rape, blow up, shoot... the "Russian barbarians", not "civilized people".

Maidan created the project "Banderovskiy-oligarachat" in Ukraine" and far right nationists were allowed to do this by the west and after the victory pumped hatred to Russia to the skies. To suspteinit they badly need a flase flag operation like MH17 to present Russians as the monsters.

Unfortunately Russia was caught by this false flag operation with hands down and initially tired to play by the rules of the normal world. But that faith that the West will dela tih Russia bases on common rules applicable in notmal world fell a few days ago from a height of 10 km and shattered into many tiny fragments.

Ukraine IMHO originally I wrote about this in March, April, may and not designed it as a trap. It might be an unfortunate incident due to decrepit state of Ukrainian air defense forces (but the question why they moved them to this area remain in this case unanswered). But as soon the shooing happened the plan emerge to blame it on Russia. To present it as an act of genocide by Russian mercenaries.

But most importantly, it was to become a stage on which the imagies of the wreckage were used to project the horror and disgust on Russia. They want to punish, to destroy us any cost and any methods from economic to military.

We tried to convince ourselves of the last already strength (and many still do)that any - even the most secret of our intervention, give a reason for the aggression against us. As if it were a "pretext" for example, you cannot create a virtual, on the computer and then show around the world. Or not to create artificially: blowing up the plane, the train, the city, nuclear will dance...

Remember, as Secretary Powell was shaking in the UN powder with Siberian ulcer" from Saddam. "The plague" was then washing powder. The country was bombed to the stage of democracy, and Powell... apologized sparingly in his memoirs.

Remember about the plots of terrible Serbian concentration camps in 1994, in Srebrenica. It's people came out in Europe on the streets and demanded to bomb, to punish, to stop. When the "bombed, punished, stopped, it became clear that terrible place belonged... to Bosnian Muslims of Izetbegovica, and dying people were just Serb prisoners. At that time anybody especially did not even apologize.

Finally, remember about the shocking footage of atrocities troops Gaddafi, killing women, children and the elderly. Already when Gaddafi was executed so that the footage was dashed against this background, and Libya drowned in real blood, it turned out that all the "atrocities" were shot in Qatar at a local Studio. Filmed venerable Hollywood Directors "at the request of the sheikhs".

Why the attack with "Boeing". No, this is not an excuse to enter NATO troops (it different enough to sign a bilateral agreement on military assistance, and then to show images of the "Russian occupation of Kyiv"). This is a PR-move, information technology.

In the history blown up with "Boeing" are three possible answers, but the whole world hears only one - it blew up "Russians" militias and the Russian Federation, we all are responsible for that. No matter what the investigation has just begun, which is not examined a "black boxes". Tube Powell is already lying on the table Obama, and the "free media" ready to show people the terrible Serbian concentration camp".

Russian experts have already talked about all the falsifications. Posted we have trumps, evidence. Only the world could see and hear more. About "Russian", nadrugalas over the dead and robbed them. And about the "Russian" the terrorists of Donbass.

The testimony of our experts, Ministers, diplomats referred to as "doubtful" and "require additional verification". Brad Avakov, screeching Poroshenko and all the hysteria over the possessed Yatseniuk called "serious" and "convincing" evidence. It's hard, it's really not want to believe we are living by the rules that don't exist. But it is a reality. And other reality and never will.

The verdict is still pending, but already discussed future sanctions and made the first proposal for "punishing Russia". Began policy - real and cynical, as usual.

What will be after the judgment has already announced the verdict?

Kiev junta now at the level of negotiations with heads of state and official requests of the international organization requires to recognize the militias and their educated patterns - terrorist network. As soon as the version on the guilt of the rebels is recognized by the Western countries, LNR and DND declared outside the law from the point of view of the international law.

Then Ukraine will likely together with one of the permanent members of the UN security Council (USA, France or the United Kingdom) requests to enter into the conflict zone "blue helmets of the United Nations, but not for peace, and for "police" transactions - by analogy with African countries, where the UN staff often help governments to disarm or destroy terrorist groups. No "cultivation and separation of the parties in such cases is not performed.

The composition of the police corps, representatives of Russia, as we all understanding, will not turn on. We now state - sponsor and accomplice of terrorists." As Iran, for example.

How many will vote for our country - I don't know and guess not want. If you support a resolution sadly, the South-East will be cleared by the Ukrainian guards and legalized under the UN flag armies of Western countries. Around the Crimea they will also be created land and then Maritime cordon.

If you use the right of veto, the world media will announce that we are "proved" his guilt and continue to cover terrorists and murderers".

Sanctions against Russia in any of these scenarios would multiply and they will be really ambitious, hard and long. States sponsoring terrorism "South stream" is not build and Mistral they do not sell. And we are so seriously to sanctions not prepared, more talked about it on TV. Of course, we will survive, but we have very hard and difficult.

Ukraine will begin to arm to the teeth as she bids to join NATO despite the fact that NATO Charter prohibits to NATO countries with unsolved territorial problems from joining. They will assign the status of associate member bloc.

But nothing is finished. Because first we were framed as aggressors. And the rest of the world believed. Now we were framed as terrorists. And as soon as the "civilized world" would believe it will become a logical last move: to put us beasts.

[Jan 03, 2020] "It remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war

Евгений Крутиков Последний шанс
Jul 30, 2014 | topwar.ru

"It remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war

"the Plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no investigation, no one needs it

in the blog print version

The expert debate about Boeing will now be about how many demons can fit on the tip of a needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war.

All the latest news about the investigation of the disaster over the Donbass say only one thing: everything is clear, but the problems are still ahead.
The main theses are as follows: the plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no investigation, no one needs it. I'll explain in more detail.

A lot has been said about the information war: the Americans started it, and they are now out of it, sadly. There is no point in sorting through the array of objective evidence – we must give the American side the opportunity to get out of all this with honor, because if the United States does not succeed, we will all again face the threat of total war.

One

Never and under no circumstances will the Ukrainian side make public its means of objective control, if they exist at all. Most likely, they have already been destroyed. Recognition of the randomness of the shot – however it may be classified-is the last chance for the US to get out of the dirty Ukrainian swamp. Yes, an accident, it happens in war. But it needs to be explained to a Western audience.

And if it is impossible to understand, then you just have to remember: the Ukrainian army shoots where it wants and what it wants to objects. And sometimes nowhere at all.

Let me remind you that in old Yugoslavia for a long time hunted for the officers of the Serbian artillery, which with a rare drunk once (!) shot in the direction of Croatian Dubrovnik. They were found ten years later and sent to the Hague. Why? Because the Croatian side in time declared everywhere where reached, including UNESCO in which list the city-monument Dubrovnik is entered, about atrocities of the Serbian artillery.
Two
Yes, we are all here at the level of unfunny jokes know that the Ukrainian rocket, if you send it to the plane, will definitely fly to the tree. And vice versa. For those who were born and raised in the Soviet Union, this is a given. But the Westerner has to prove it and explain it. He, a Westerner, used to think that if a guy could speak APE English fluently, even if he had a strong accent, he was still our local guy. So it was with Saakashvili and Yushchenko. They were also married to Western ladies. And then with Yatsenyuk Turchynov, tied to both the American sect. They're twice their own.
The guy from the West used to think that if the missile system is put on combat duty, it is worth something. He can not explain that for twenty-three years, the Ukrainian army conducted only one air defense exercise – in 2001. And it ended up being shot down over the Black sea by a Russian plane. After that, no (!) and never (!) there were no exercises in Ukraine.
Three
References to the war in South Ossetia, in which it was the Ukrainian crews of "Buks" perfectly proved themselves by shooting down four Russian objects under the Georgian obscene hooting, also do not work. Georgians with great difficulty found across Ukraine two crews for all the same "Buks", whose commanders of calculations were Americans of Polish origin.
Most of these brave Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners after the war 08.08.08 died under unclear circumstances, and the survivors were drunk (the city of Stryi, Lviv region, the former air defense base of the Carpathian military district of the USSR armed forces). And no one has tried to train the new crews as unnecessary.
Inventory of missiles, by the way, no one held, and it did not make sense, because the missiles were sold right and left, and that is especially sinful-it is to the left, that is, to countries that the same US declare "outcasts". Target capture guidance system-a complex thing, " Buk " is able to simultaneously conduct up to 24 goals, and it is not clear what exactly saw on the radar specific lad.
Four
The Boeing could give additional signals. It could be untried equipment, which will now be difficult to admit to the Malaysian airline.
Even if the "Boeing" shone an additional beacon-it could cause the launch of the rocket. And there were several objects on the radar that were moving towards the war zone – here a spontaneous launch of a missile is more than possible. During the cold war, passenger planes were very often used for reconnaissance purposes, loading them with photographic equipment. This, of course, is not our case, and the times are quite different – satellites fly with impunity, but still no one has yet shown how perfect was the plane itself, its crew and strange course.
Five
By the way, the base of American drones working for the Kiev government is located in Kanatovo near Dnepropetrovsk, just in the area of the flight of the "Boeing". This is an old abandoned Soviet air force base of those that grew sunflowers by the end of the 90's.
But recently there arrived Americans, all rebuilt, and now this former collective farm field is called the 66th separate brigade of the air force of Ukraine, although from the Ukrainian there are only signs and dogs. Live there American military, and are based only American drones, of which two have already been shot down. The first – in the spring on Perekop Russian fighter, the second-over Donetsk militia, and it almost entirely fell into their hands.
For the United States, the explanation of all that has happened is a kind of unintentional accident, or even better-the synergy of many accidents-almost the only way to calmly and technically get out of the game.
Technically, you just need to "chat" for a couple of weeks. And then the evidence from the "black boxes" will not be so relevant, and in General the whole story will be erased from memory, perhaps against the background of other circumstances.
Six
But it will not be possible to talk about the circumstances of what is happening in Novorossiya at all. Many found this place on the map. Many began to watch the news. And there, for example, the tone of CNN correspondents radically changed after they got access to Lugansk and Donetsk on the tail of Malaysian representatives.
No Western journalist had been in the combat zone for three months, and now they were impartially reporting live that civilians were being killed, that heavy artillery fire was being fired from Ukrainian positions on residential areas, and, most interestingly, the presenters in the Studio never interrupted them. And this on CNN and Foxnews do at times. But now the words are accompanied by a picture of the bodies of apparently civilians torn apart. And just like that, even Christian Amanpour won't interrupt anyone.
Seven
Most likely, it is the discussion of the set of accidents that led to the missile salvo that will soon become dominant. A half-trained or even never-learned APE with a grenade sat at the controls. She didn't identify the objects.
The fighter that accompanied (or whatever he was doing with this "Boeing", did not push out of the track?), seeing the rocket, was forced to make the same emergency evasion maneuver, which indicates the objective data of Russian surveillance-he abruptly went up to the limit and even beyond the height.
Something on several radars, presumably defined as a "small-sized, high-speed flying object", that is, a fighter, not a UFO, made a routine maneuver to evade a missile salvo from the ground. So taught in the Soviet flight schools. All Ukrainian pilots came out of the same greatcoat.
Scholastic dispute about whether it was exactly " Buk " or the old C-200, which is also the same 25 years of vodka brewed, does not make sense. Good people who are leading this highly professional dispute, come from some ideal circumstances, forgetting that all this-Ukraine.
The salvo was obviously spontaneous, and this-again-is the only thing that will save the West now.
* * *
But we will never hear or see this, because no one will drown Poroshenko now, he will drown himself in two or three months. The American security service is forced to "keep a face", because Barack Obama first said, and then there was objective tracking data, and how to get out of this – no one knows.
Further expert debate will be about how many demons can fit on the tip of the needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war.
It is in the interest of world peace to ensure that the investigation into the deaths of nearly 300 people is delayed as long as possible. And then it was forgotten.
Is it possible? Yes, perhaps. We did not see the unfortunate relatives storming the building of Schiphol airport, although relatively recently the same crowd almost demolished the government of Malaysia because of the unknown where the disappeared similar "Boeing".
European governments can make sure that the relatives of the victims stop asking questions. Although they, those who lost loved ones, could be the driving force of the entire investigation. It's very cynical, Yes. But what other choice is there?."It remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war "the Plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no investigation, no one needs it

in the blog print version

The expert debate about Boeing will now be about how many demons can fit on the tip of a needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war.
All the latest news about the investigation of the disaster over the Donbass say only one thing: everything is clear, but the problems are still ahead.
The main theses are as follows: the plane was shot down by Ukrainians, shot down by accident, there will be no investigation, no one needs it. I'll explain in more detail.
A lot has been said about the information war: the Americans started it, and they are now out of it, sadly. There is no point in sorting through the array of objective evidence – we must give the American side the opportunity to get out of all this with honor, because if the United States does not succeed, we will all again face the threat of total war.
One
Never and under no circumstances will the Ukrainian side make public its means of objective control, if they exist at all. Most likely, they have already been destroyed. Recognition of the randomness of the shot – however it may be classified-is the last chance for the US to get out of the dirty Ukrainian swamp. Yes, an accident, it happens in war. But it needs to be explained to a Western audience.
And if it is impossible to understand, then you just have to remember: the Ukrainian army shoots where it wants and what it wants to objects. And sometimes nowhere at all.
Let me remind you that in old Yugoslavia for a long time hunted for the officers of the Serbian artillery, which with a rare drunk once (!) shot in the direction of Croatian Dubrovnik. They were found ten years later and sent to the Hague. Why? Because the Croatian side in time declared everywhere where reached, including UNESCO in which list the city-monument Dubrovnik is entered, about atrocities of the Serbian artillery.
Two
Yes, we are all here at the level of unfunny jokes know that the Ukrainian rocket, if you send it to the plane, will definitely fly to the tree. And vice versa. For those who were born and raised in the Soviet Union, this is a given. But the Westerner has to prove it and explain it. He, a Westerner, used to think that if a guy could speak APE English fluently, even if he had a strong accent, he was still our local guy. So it was with Saakashvili and Yushchenko. They were also married to Western ladies. And then with Yatsenyuk Turchynov, tied to both the American sect. They're twice their own.
The guy from the West used to think that if the missile system is put on combat duty, it is worth something. He can not explain that for twenty-three years, the Ukrainian army conducted only one air defense exercise – in 2001. And it ended up being shot down over the Black sea by a Russian plane. After that, no (!) and never (!) there were no exercises in Ukraine.
Three
References to the war in South Ossetia, in which it was the Ukrainian crews of "Buks" perfectly proved themselves by shooting down four Russian objects under the Georgian obscene hooting, also do not work. Georgians with great difficulty found across Ukraine two crews for all the same "Buks", whose commanders of calculations were Americans of Polish origin.
Most of these brave Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners after the war 08.08.08 died under unclear circumstances, and the survivors were drunk (the city of Stryi, Lviv region, the former air defense base of the Carpathian military district of the USSR armed forces). And no one has tried to train the new crews as unnecessary.
Inventory of missiles, by the way, no one held, and it did not make sense, because the missiles were sold right and left, and that is especially sinful-it is to the left, that is, to countries that the same US declare "outcasts". Target capture guidance system-a complex thing, " Buk " is able to simultaneously conduct up to 24 goals, and it is not clear what exactly saw on the radar specific lad.
Four
The Boeing could give additional signals. It could be untried equipment, which will now be difficult to admit to the Malaysian airline.
Even if the "Boeing" shone an additional beacon-it could cause the launch of the rocket. And there were several objects on the radar that were moving towards the war zone – here a spontaneous launch of a missile is more than possible. During the cold war, passenger planes were very often used for reconnaissance purposes, loading them with photographic equipment. This, of course, is not our case, and the times are quite different – satellites fly with impunity, but still no one has yet shown how perfect was the plane itself, its crew and strange course.
Five
By the way, the base of American drones working for the Kiev government is located in Kanatovo near Dnepropetrovsk, just in the area of the flight of the "Boeing". This is an old abandoned Soviet air force base of those that grew sunflowers by the end of the 90's.
But recently there arrived Americans, all rebuilt, and now this former collective farm field is called the 66th separate brigade of the air force of Ukraine, although from the Ukrainian there are only signs and dogs. Live there American military, and are based only American drones, of which two have already been shot down. The first – in the spring on Perekop Russian fighter, the second-over Donetsk militia, and it almost entirely fell into their hands.
For the United States, the explanation of all that has happened is a kind of unintentional accident, or even better-the synergy of many accidents-almost the only way to calmly and technically get out of the game.
Technically, you just need to "chat" for a couple of weeks. And then the evidence from the "black boxes" will not be so relevant, and in General the whole story will be erased from memory, perhaps against the background of other circumstances.
Six
But it will not be possible to talk about the circumstances of what is happening in Novorossiya at all. Many found this place on the map. Many began to watch the news. And there, for example, the tone of CNN correspondents radically changed after they got access to Lugansk and Donetsk on the tail of Malaysian representatives.
No Western journalist had been in the combat zone for three months, and now they were impartially reporting live that civilians were being killed, that heavy artillery fire was being fired from Ukrainian positions on residential areas, and, most interestingly, the presenters in the Studio never interrupted them. And this on CNN and Foxnews do at times. But now the words are accompanied by a picture of the bodies of apparently civilians torn apart. And just like that, even Christian Amanpour won't interrupt anyone.
Seven
Most likely, it is the discussion of the set of accidents that led to the missile salvo that will soon become dominant. A half-trained or even never-learned APE with a grenade sat at the controls. She didn't identify the objects.
The fighter that accompanied (or whatever he was doing with this "Boeing", did not push out of the track?), seeing the rocket, was forced to make the same emergency evasion maneuver, which indicates the objective data of Russian surveillance-he abruptly went up to the limit and even beyond the height.
Something on several radars, presumably defined as a "small-sized, high-speed flying object", that is, a fighter, not a UFO, made a routine maneuver to evade a missile salvo from the ground. So taught in the Soviet flight schools. All Ukrainian pilots came out of the same greatcoat.
Scholastic dispute about whether it was exactly " Buk " or the old C-200, which is also the same 25 years of vodka brewed, does not make sense. Good people who are leading this highly professional dispute, come from some ideal circumstances, forgetting that all this-Ukraine.
The salvo was obviously spontaneous, and this-again-is the only thing that will save the West now.
* * *
But we will never hear or see this, because no one will drown Poroshenko now, he will drown himself in two or three months. The American security service is forced to "keep a face", because Barack Obama first said, and then there was objective tracking data, and how to get out of this – no one knows.
Further expert debate will be about how many demons can fit on the tip of the needle. Everyone is already clear, it remains to figure out how to save the current US administration, while avoiding a world war.
It is in the interest of world peace to ensure that the investigation into the deaths of nearly 300 people is delayed as long as possible. And then it was forgotten.
Is it possible? Yes, perhaps. We did not see the unfortunate relatives storming the building of Schiphol airport, although relatively recently the same crowd almost demolished the government of Malaysia because of the unknown where the disappeared similar "Boeing".
European governments can make sure that the relatives of the victims stop asking questions. Although they, those who lost loved ones, could be the driving force of the entire investigation. It's very cynical, Yes. But what other choice is there?

[Jan 02, 2020] The Art of Doublespeak Bellingcat and Mind Control by Edward Curtin

Notable quotes:
"... Bellingcat is an alleged group of amateur on-line researchers who have spent years shilling for the U.S. instigated war against the Syrian government, blaming the Douma chemical attack and others on the Assad government, and for the anti-Russian propaganda connected to, among other things, the Skripal poisoning case in England, and the downing of flight MH17 plane in Ukraine. ..."
"... The Intercept , along with its parent company First Look Media, recently hosted a workshop for pro-war, Google-funded organization Bellingcat in New York. The workshop, which cost $2,500 per person to attend and lasted five days, aimed to instruct participants in how to perform investigations using "open source" tools -- with Bellingcat's past, controversial investigations for use as case studies Thus, while The Intercept has long publicly promoted itself as an anti-interventionist and progressive media outlet, it is becoming clearer that – largely thanks to its ties to Omidyar – it is increasingly an organization that has more in common with Bellingcat, a group that launders NATO and U.S. propaganda and disguises it as "independent" and "investigative journalism." ..."
Dec 17, 2019 | countercurrents.org

In the 1920s, the influential American intellectual Walter Lippman argued that the average person was incapable of seeing or understanding the world clearly and needed to be guided by experts behind the social curtain. In a number of books he laid out the theoretical foundations for the practical work of Edward Bernays , who developed "public relations" (aka propaganda) to carry out this task for the ruling elites. Bernays had honed his skills while working as a propagandist for the United States during World War I, and after the war he set himself up as a public relations counselor in New York City.

There is a fascinating exchange at the beginning of Adam Curtis's documentary, The Century of Self , where Bernays, then nearly 100 years old but still very sharp, reveals his manipulative mindset and that of so many of those who have followed in his wake. He says the reason he couldn't call his new business "propaganda" was because the Germans had given propaganda a "bad name," and so he came up with the euphemism "public relations." He then adds that "if you could use it [i.e. propaganda] for war, you certainly could use it for peace." Of course, he never used PR for peace but just to manipulate public opinion (he helped engineer the CIA coup against the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954 with fake news broadcasts). He says "the Germans gave propaganda a bad name," not Bernays and the United States with their vast campaign of lies, mainly aimed at the American people to get their support for going to a war they opposed (think weapons of mass destruction). He sounds proud of his war propaganda work that resounded to his credit since it led to support for the "war to end all wars" and subsequently to a hit movie about WWI , Yankee Doodle Dandy , made in 1942 to promote another war, since the first one somehow didn't achieve its lofty goal.

As Bernays has said in his book Propaganda ,

The American motion picture is the greatest unconscious carrier of propaganda in the world today.

He was a propagandist to the end. I suspect most viewers of the film are taken in by these softly spoken words of an old man sipping a glass of wine at a dinner table with a woman who is asking him questions. I have shown this film to hundreds of students and none has noticed his legerdemain. It is an example of the sort of hocus-pocus I will be getting to shortly, the sly insertion into seemingly liberal or matter-of-fact commentary of statements that imply a different story. The placement of convincing or confusing disingenuous ingredients into a truth sandwich – for Bernays knew that the bread of truth is essential to conceal untruth.

In the following years, Bernays, Lippman, and their ilk were joined by social "scientists," psychologists, and sundry others intent on making a sham out of the idea of democracy by developing strategies and techniques for the engineering of social consensus consonant with the wishes of the ruling classes. Their techniques of propaganda developed exponentially with the development of technology, the creation of the CIA, its infiltration of all the major media, and that agency's courting of what the CIA official Cord Meyer called in the 1950s "the compatible left," having already had the right in its pocket. Today most people are, as is said, "wired," and they get their information from the electronic media that is mostly controlled by giant corporations in cahoots with government propagandists. Ask yourself: Has the power of the oligarchic, permanent warfare state with its propaganda and spy networks increased or decreased over your lifetime. The answer is obvious: the average people that Lippman and Bernays trashed are losing and the ruling elites are winning.

This is not just because powerful propagandists are good at controlling so-called "average" people's thinking, but, perhaps more importantly, because they are also adept – probably more so – at confusing or directing the thinking of those who consider themselves above average, those who still might read a book or two or have the concentration to read multiple articles that offer different perspectives on a topic. This is what some call the professional and intellectual classes, perhaps 15-20 % of the population, most of whom are not the ruling elites but their employees and sometimes their mouthpieces. It is this segment of the population that considers itself "informed," but the information they imbibe is often sprinkled with bits of misdirection, both intentional and not, that beclouds their understanding of important public matters but leaves them with the false impression that they are in the know.

Recently I have noticed a group of interconnected examples of how this group of the population that exerts influence incommensurate with their numbers has contributed to the blurring of lines between fact and fiction. Within this group there are opinion makers who are often journalists, writers, and cultural producers of some sort or other, and then the larger number of the intellectual or schooled class who follow their opinions. This second group then passes on their received opinions to those who look up to them.

There is a notorious propaganda outfit called Bellingcat , started by an unemployed Englishman named Eliot Higgins, that has been funded by The Atlantic Council, a think-tank with deep ties to the U.S. government, NATO, war manufacturers, and their allies, and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), another infamous U.S. front organization heavily involved in so-called color revolution regime change operations all around the world, that has just won the International Emmy Award for best documentary. The film with the Orwellian title, Bellingcat: Truth in a Post-Truth World, received its Emmy at a recent ceremony in New York City.

Bellingcat is an alleged group of amateur on-line researchers who have spent years shilling for the U.S. instigated war against the Syrian government, blaming the Douma chemical attack and others on the Assad government, and for the anti-Russian propaganda connected to, among other things, the Skripal poisoning case in England, and the downing of flight MH17 plane in Ukraine.

It has been lauded by the corporate mainstream media in the west. Its support for the equally fraudulent White Helmets (also funded by the US and the UK) in Syria has also been praised by the western corporate media while being dissected as propaganda by many excellent independent journalists such as Eva Bartlett, Vanessa Beeley, Catte Black, among others. It's had its work skewered by the likes of Seymour Hersh and MIT professor Theodore Postol, and its US government connections pointed out by many others, including Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal at The Gray Zone. And now we have the mainstream media's wall of silence on the leaks from the Organization for the Prohibition on Chemical Weapons (OPCW) concerning the Douma chemical attack and the doctoring of their report that led to the illegal U.S. bombing of Syria in the spring of 2018. Bellingcat was at the forefront of providing justification for such bombing, and now the journalists Peter Hitchens, Tareq Harrad (who recently resigned from Newsweek after accusing the publication of suppressing his revelations about the OPCW scandal) and others are fighting an uphill battle to get the truth out.

Yet Bellingcat: Truth in a Post-Truth World won the Emmy , fulfilling Bernays' point about films being the greatest unconscious carriers of propaganda in the world today.

Who presented the Emmy Award to the film makers, but none other than the rebel journalist Chris Hedges . Why he did so, I don't know. But that he did so clearly sends a message to those who follow his work and trust him that it's okay to give a major cultural award to a propaganda outfit. But then, perhaps he doesn't consider Bellingcat to be that.

Nor, one presumes, does The Intercept , the billionaire Pierre Omidyar owned publication associated with Glen Greenwald and Jeremy Scahill, and also read by many progressive-minded people. The Intercept that earlier this year disbanded the small team that was tasked with reviewing and releasing more of the massive trove of documents they received from Edward Snowden six years ago, a minute number of which have ever been released or probably ever will be. As Whitney Webb pointed out , last year The Intercept hosted a workshop for Bellingcat. She wrote:

The Intercept , along with its parent company First Look Media, recently hosted a workshop for pro-war, Google-funded organization Bellingcat in New York. The workshop, which cost $2,500 per person to attend and lasted five days, aimed to instruct participants in how to perform investigations using "open source" tools -- with Bellingcat's past, controversial investigations for use as case studies Thus, while The Intercept has long publicly promoted itself as an anti-interventionist and progressive media outlet, it is becoming clearer that – largely thanks to its ties to Omidyar – it is increasingly an organization that has more in common with Bellingcat, a group that launders NATO and U.S. propaganda and disguises it as "independent" and "investigative journalism."

Then we have Jefferson Morley , the editor of The Deep State, former Washington Post journalist, and JFK assassination researcher, who has written a praiseworthy review of the Bellingcat film and who supports Bellingcat. "In my experience, Bellingcat is credible," he writes in an Alternet article, "Bellingcat documentary has the pace and plot of a thriller."

Morley has also just written an article for Counterpunch "Why the Douma Chemical Attack Wasn't a 'Managed Massacre'" – in which he disputes the claim that the April 7, 2018 attack in the Damascus suburb was a false flag operation carried out by Assad's opponents. "I do not see any evidence proving that Douma was a false flag incident," he writes in this article that is written in a style that leaves one guessing as to what exactly he is saying. It sounds convincing unless one concentrates, and then his double messages emerge. Yet it is the kind of article that certain "sophisticated" left-wing readers might read and feel is insightful. But then Morley, who has written considerably about the CIA, edits a website that advertises itself as "the thinking person's portal to the world of secret government," and recently had an exchange with former CIA Director John Brennan where "Brennan put a friendly finger on my chest," said in February 2017, less than a month after Trump was sworn in as president, that:

With a docile Republican majority in Congress and a demoralized Democratic Party in opposition, the leaders of the Deep State are the most -- perhaps the only -- credible check in Washington on what Senator Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) calls Trump's " wrecking ball presidency ."

Is it any wonder that some people might be a bit confused?

"I know what you're thinking about," said Tweedledum; "but it isn't so, nohow."

"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."

As a final case in point, there is a recent book by Stephen Kinzer , Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control, t he story of the chemist known as Dr. Death who ran the CIA's MK-ULTRA mind control project, using LSD, torture, electric shock therapy, hypnosis, etc.; developed sadistic methods of torture still used in black sites around the world; and invented various ingenious techniques for assassination, many of which were aimed at Fidel Castro. Gottlieb was responsible for brutal prison and hospital experiments and untold death and suffering inflicted on all sorts of innocent people. His work was depraved in the deepest sense; he worked with Nazis who experimented on Jews despite being Jewish himself.

Kinzer writes in depth about this man who considered himself a patriot and a spiritual person – a humane torturer and killer. It is an eye-opening book for anyone who does not know about Gottlieb, who gave the CIA the essential tools they use in their "organized crime" activities around the world – in the words of Douglass Valentine, the author of The CIA as Organized Crime and The Phoenix Program . Kinzer's book is good history on Gottlieb; however, he doesn't venture into the present activities of the CIA and Gottlieb's patriotic followers, who no doubt exist and go about their business in secret.

After recounting in detail the sordid history of Gottlieb's secret work that is nauseating to read about, Kinzer leaves the reader with these strange words:

Gottlieb was not a sadist, but he might well have been . Above all he was an instrument of history. Understanding him is a deeply disturbing way of understanding ourselves.

What possibly could this mean? Not a sadist? An instrument of history? Understanding ourselves? These few sentences, dropped out of nowhere, pull the rug out from under what is generally an illuminating history and what seems like a moral indictment. This language is pure mystification.

Kinzer also concludes that because Gottlieb said so, the CIA failed in their efforts to develop methods of mind control and ended MK-ULTRA's experiments long ago. Why would he believe the word of a man who personified the agency he worked for: a secret liar? He writes,

When Sydney Gottlieb brough MK-ULTRA to its end in the early 1960s, he told his CIA superiors that he had found no reliable way to wipe away memory, make people abandon their consciences, or commit crimes and then forget them.

As for those who might think otherwise, Kinzer suggests they have vivid imaginations and are caught up in conspiracy thinking: "This [convincing others that the CIA had developed methods of mind control when they hadn't] is Sydney Gottlieb's most unexpected legacy," he asserts. He says this although Richard Helms, the CIA Director, destroyed all MK-Ultra records. He says that Allen Dulles, Gottlieb, and Helms themselves were caught up in a complete fantasy about mind control because they had seen too many movies and read too many books; mind control was impossible, a failure, a myth, he maintains. It is the stuff of popular culture, entertainment. In an interview with Chris Hedges, interestingly posted by Jefferson Morley at his website, The Deep State , Hedges agrees with Kinzer. Gottlieb, Dulles, et al. were all deluded. Mind control was impossible. You couldn't create a Manchurian Candidate; by implication, someone like Sirhan Sirhan could not have been programmed to be a fake Manchurian Candidate and to have no memory of what he did, as he claims. He could not have been mind-controlled by the CIA to perform his part as the seeming assassin of Senator Robert Kennedy while the real killer shot RFK from behind. People who think like this should get real.

Furthermore, as is so common in books such as Kinzer's, he repeats the canard that JFK and RFK knew about and pressured the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro. This is demonstrably false, as shown by the Church Committee and the Assassinations Record Review Board, among many others. That Kinzer takes the word of notorious liars like Richard Helms and the top-level CIA operative Samuel Halpern is simple incredible, something that is hard to consider a mistake. Slipped into a truth sandwich, it is devoured and passed on. But it is false. Bullshit meant to deceive.

But this is how these games are played. If you look carefully, you will see them widely. Inform, enlighten, while throwing in doubletalk and untruths. The small number of people who read such books and articles will come away knowing some history that has no current relevance and being misinformed on other history that does. They will then be in the know, ready to pass their "wisdom" on to those who care to listen. They will not think they are average.

But they will be mind controlled, and the killer cat will roam freely without a bell, ready to devour the unsuspecting mice.

Edward Curtin is a writer whose work has appeared widely. He teaches sociology at Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. His website is http://edwardcurtin.com/

[Jan 02, 2020] The end of Ukranian gas rent, which is due to the fact that USSR lay piplenes via its terroty is near

Notable quotes:
"... With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs. Ukraine becomes a liability to the West as that country continues its slow and agonising collapse. Perhaps in 2020 the Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts may officially declare their independence and apply for inclusion into the Russian Federation, or combine into a new nation. Other adjoining oblasts (Kharkiv?) may follow suit. Transcarpathia oblast in the far west of Ukraine may declare independence and then apply to join Hungary. ..."
Jan 02, 2020 | www.moonofalabama.org

Jen , Dec 31 2019 19:49 utc | 37

Dear B,

Nordstream II should be completed in 2020 in spite of the many handicaps and threats of sanctions the US has applied against Germany if the pipeline project continues. Its completion is bound to change the geopolitical landscape in central and eastern Europe considerably.

With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs. Ukraine becomes a liability to the West as that country continues its slow and agonising collapse. Perhaps in 2020 the Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts may officially declare their independence and apply for inclusion into the Russian Federation, or combine into a new nation. Other adjoining oblasts (Kharkiv?) may follow suit. Transcarpathia oblast in the far west of Ukraine may declare independence and then apply to join Hungary.

Volodymyr Zelensky may not last long as President and is likely to be turfed out in a coup. Civil war will come again to Ukraine but not in its Russian-speaking east.

Belarus should be monitoring its own southern borders. Maybe crunch-time is coming for President Lukashenko there as to whether he should align Belarus more closely with Russia or with the EU instead of trying to get the best of both worlds by playing one against the other.

My predictions for 2020 are that Ukraine's final collapse and fragmentation will start, that the use of threats and sanctions continues to isolate the US to its detriment, and that (maybe, just maybe) the collapse of Ukraine will lead to some of the truth of what actually happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 becoming public with whistleblowers in the investigation finally coming forward.


Lydia , Dec 31 2019 19:57 utc | 39

To prevent the truth about MH17 becoming common knowledge, the powers that be will really crack down on the Internet.
Perimetr , Jan 1 2020 16:42 utc | 93
Re Jen @37 "With Nordstream II becoming operational, Russia can bypass Ukraine completely in supplying gas to EU countries and Ukraine will only receive enough gas for its own needs."

Zerohedge reports Ukraine & Russia Ink Landmark Gas Transit Deal Hammering European Gas Prices

I am hoping this is a bad joke, but perhaps not. I suppose, if true, it will prevent a lot of Ukrainians from freezing to death this winter. But considering the benefits it will provide to the Ukro-nazis who hate Russia, I have to wonder about the decision-making process in Moscow.

[Dec 22, 2019] Bellingcat's transparency is non existent, which means it is the outfit financed by intelligence services

Dec 22, 2019 | twitter.com

Bellingcat's transparency model is similar to the Tor Project's. It lists a bunch of innocuous, little-known non-profits and human rights-type organizations. To understand who they and why they'd fund an outfit like Bellingcat takes a lot more digging.

-- Yasha Levine (@yashalevine) December 20, 2019

[Dec 13, 2019] Note of Elliot Higgins and his MI6 funded dirty propaganda underwear selling shop

Dec 13, 2019 | www.unz.com

Kratoklastes , says: December 12, 2019 at 3:42 am GMT

started by an unemployed Englishman named Eliot Higgins

Good on him – being able to create a thing that rises to such prominence in such a short space of time speaks volumes about this Higgins guy's entrepreneurial ability. And if he wasn't mobbed-up to begin with, he sure as fuck is now – which is a double- mitzvah (for him).

If he did so starting from being unemployed, then anybody who turned down a job application from the guy must be kicking themselves. (' Unemployed ' is obviously used pejoratively in the blockquote; 'Englishman' is purely-descriptive).

.

Also, the entire article accepts Bernays' conclusion, but disagrees as to which objectives should be pursued.

Bernays' conclusions are hardly controversial: most people are gullible imbeciles . It's not clear to me how much more empirical evidence we need before that becomes just a thing that everyone with an IQ above 115 accepts.

So the question then becomes " OK, now what? ".

As usual, the right answer is " Depends " – and not just for those with bladder control problems.

If you want to do things that are just , exploiting gullible imbeciles would appear to violate the playing conditions. It would be hors jeu ; not done; just not cricket .

As the Laconian famously said . " IF ."

For those for whom the 'if' condition returns 'false', it does very little to bleat about how awful they are. You're not going to cause a little switch in their brain to flick on (or off?), whereupon they realise the error of their ways and make a conscious decision to leave the gullible imbeciles unexploited.

It's even unlikely to affect their victims (remember, they're imbeciles) – because otherwise some infra-marginal imbeciles would have to process their way through quite a bit of cognitive dissonance, and they're not wired for introspection (or processing).

So the sole real purpose (apart from κάθαρσις catharsis ) is prophylaxis (προ + φύλαξις – guarding ). Both good enough aims obviously the writer is the one who gets the cathartic benefit, but who is going to be on heightened alert as a result of this Cassandra -ish jeremiad -ing?

Non-imbeciles don't need it; imbeciles won't benefit.

Here's the thing: the gullible imbeciles are going to be exploited by someone .

.

This is something that people of my persuasion struggle with. It boils down to the following:

Let's assume that a reprehensible thing exists already, and is unlikely to be overthrown by my opposition to it. Should I just participate and line my pockets?

The resources used are going to be used whether I participate or not, so it may as well be me who gets them. After all, I will put them to moral uses – and while inside, I can do things that are contrary to the interests of the reprehensible thing.

There is no satisfactory counter-argument to that line of reasoning, and yet I reject it.

Then again: I was dropped on my head as an infant, so YMMV.

[Dec 13, 2019] Chris Hedges presence on Bellingcat award: in view of Bellingcat role in MH 17 false flag operation it became clear that Hedges must be either an idiot or deeply embedded.

Dec 13, 2019 | www.unz.com

,

Adrian , says: December 12, 2019 at 6:35 am GMT
@Adrian About Chris Hedges' participation in presenting this award to Bellingcat "News from Underground" came yesterday up with this:

a friend who knows the background of Chris Hedges' involvement writes that "he was duped into presenting the Emmy to Bellingcat -- and, from what I hear, he believes it was done intentionally to smear him."

As this friend is someone I (and many others) quite admire for his integrity and bravery, and as it's wholly plausible that Hedges would have been set up, I am reserving judgementon his action, and urge people on this list to do so, too.

FB , says: Website December 12, 2019 at 6:46 am GMT
@Adrian Hedges would have known who the nominees are just seeing Bellingcat in there and knowing this is the Emmies well, it's hard to believe otherwise than Hedges is a clever fake as I have long suspected

Let's recall that Hedges in his previous life was an NYT war correspondent who covered the Bosnian conflict knowing Yugoslavia quite well from visits there in the 1980s his reports demonizing Serbs stood out like a sore thumb

I quickly pegged him as a complete liar, like the rest of the MSM propagandists that were repeating boilerplate canards meant to demonize the hugely successful nation of Yugoslavia which of course they were trying to tear apart

For instance, 'the Serb-dominated Yugoslavia' was a standard sentence that appeared literally in every single story repeated ad nauseum literallu dozens of times a day and clearly meant to convince the reader that dismantling the progressive and ethnically harmonious nation of Yugoslavia was somehow the right thing to do

But it was pure bullshit anyone who had ever been to Yugoslavia would instantly recognize that as a 'WTF ?'

There is much much more in Hedges' closet

But then, miraculously, he had a 'Road to Damascus' moment a few years later [we are supposed to believe] and somehow became a 'good guy'

Bullshit Mr. Curtin nails the sly method here exactly

[The] bread of truth is essential to conceal untruth.

An excellent article

PS Counterpunch is a complete bullshit rag that has been coopted completely Plutocrat Pierre Omidyar and his little 'Intercept' outfit is similarly continuing in the footsteps of prior plutocrat propagandists like the Ford foundation Rockefellers and others

The ultimate goal is controlling YOU they need you to be obedient and believing and not ask any questions

JoannF , says: December 12, 2019 at 1:48 pm GMT
@FB Haven't looked at Bellingcat (not exactly a sophisticated operation if you ever worked in the ad business) since MH 17 and Putin's Syria pacification, but upon reading this article it became clear that Hedges must be either an idiot or deeply embedded.

One doesn't exclude the other, of course. The uneducated public wouldn't need to catch up on so much information, and still get a great head start if they ever found out wtf "cui bono" even means – but that's not gonna happen.
It's just not how the human mind works.

[Dec 03, 2019] Something about Bellingcat credibility

Dec 03, 2019 | www.nytimes.com

The blogger Eliot Higgins made waves early in the decade by covering the war in Syria from a laptop in his apartment in Leicester, England, while caring for his infant daughter. In 2014, he founded Bellingcat, an open-source news outlet that has grown to include roughly a dozen staff members, with an office in The Hague. Mr. Higgins attributed his skill not to any special knowledge of international conflicts or digital data, but to the hours he had spent playing video games , which, he said, gave him the idea that any mystery can be cracked.
...
Bellingcat journalists have spread the word about their techniques in seminars attended by journalists and law-enforcement officials. Along with grants from groups like the Open Society Foundations, founded by George Soros, the seminars are a significant source of revenue for Bellingcat, a nonprofit organization.

[Dec 02, 2019] Looks like Brown Noser Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcrap organisation may have finally met their match in a real investigative journalist, Dilyana Gaytandzhieva

Dec 02, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Jen December 1, 2019 at 3:38 am

Looks like Brown Noser Eliot Higgins and his Bellingcrap organisation may have finally met their match in a real investigative journalist, Dilyana Gaytandzhieva, who (some of us may recall) has done sterling work in tracing movements of weapons from the Balkan countries to Turkey and Azerbaijan with their ultimate destination being Syria to be used by ISIS jihadis, and for which she was sacked by her newspaper employer in Bulgaria.

"Exposed: Bellingcat fabricate evidence, deliberately hide documents in new 'Russian spy plot'"
https://armswatch.com/exposed-bellingcat-fabricate-evidence-deliberately-hide-documents-in-new-russian-spy-plot/

Does anyone imagine that the Brown Noser will have the courage and fortitude to respond to legal action brought against him and Bellingcrap? Will his Atlantic Council employers support him or has he passed his use-by date and become a liability?

[Nov 15, 2019] Kolomoisky and MH17

Notable quotes:
"... The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable... ..."
Nov 15, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

Jen , Nov 14 2019 22:32 utc | 38

Curious to know how Kolomoisky is working "feverishly" to end the war in the Donbass region. Wonder if he is planning to come clean on what he knows of the Malaysia Airlines MH17 shootdown and crash in an area not far from Slavyansk and near where his Privat Group's subsidiary company Burisma Holdings holds a licence to drill for oil and natural gas. What does he know about Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk air traffic control personnel's direction to MH17 to fly at 10,000 metres in the warzone and not an extra 1,000 metres above as the flight crew had requested? He had been governor of Dnepropetrovsk region at the time.

ben , Nov 14 2019 22:47 utc | 39

A quote from b's article;"It is clearly in our national interest to deter further Russian aggression".

Spoken by two sycophants for the empire.

It would be in our "national interest" if we could stop our aggression's around the globe.

DJT, IMO, only favors peace with Russia, or any one else,if, it furthers HIS personal, and his families enrichment.

He has a record of shafting people, I just wish people would inform themselves about it, and see what he's done with his life, not what says about it.

ben , Nov 14 2019 22:56 utc | 41
fb @ 25 said;"The Ukraine is actually a preview of what we can expect to see in our own future...as the unleashed oligarchy similarly runs everything into the ground in order to extract maximal wealth for a parasite elite...already we are nothing but a Ponzi Scheme on the verge of toppling..."

Yup, aided and abetted by our current regime, while pretending not to...

Really?? , Nov 14 2019 23:23 utc | 42
@23
"It's a tough balancing act, being a Ukrainian oligarch. For two decades they stole what they could from the Ukraine (and from perverting the various sweetheart deals Russia was providing). Once the industry and energy money was stripped, and Russia started closing the spigots, they managed to get the West to pump in ungodly amounts of cash so long as they would agree to talk mean about Russia, and didn't mind the US machine taking its cut of the loot."

This is it in a nutshell. The Russians were fed up with Ukraine stealing gas. Hence, Nord Stream 2. That was always the plan. Whether the Yanks truly grasped the rationale here ---Russia is cutting off gas to Ukraine, simple---has never been clear to me. Although it is a fairly simple plot. The Russians had decades of shenanigans with the Ukes and said Basta. By not overreacting to the Ukrainian-USA freakout and keeping their eyes on the prize (Nord Stream and disengaging, gas-wise, from Uk), they have managed to reach their goal of getting Nord Stream 2 online.

oldhippie , Nov 14 2019 23:25 utc | 43
Kolomoiski is the bankroller and commander of the Azov Battalion. Has close arrangements with other paramilitaries. And is the current principal of Burisma. And is Privatbank, the only bank left in Ukraine. He gets a cut of all the action.

When Trump queries Zelensky, all that Zelensky is thinking is this guy does not know the score. This guy does not know who's on first. He wants me to investigate the boss? Let him talk to the boss. And who does Z talk to in D.C.? Pointless getting into detail with Trump.

Trump has no team. No one in D.C. is on his side. He's unable to finish anything.

OutOfThinAir , Nov 14 2019 23:45 utc | 44
1) Say the fantasy happens and the US/Russia become BFFs like US/UK...

- Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss?

- Tough to answer, many unknowns- Russia may act different once its on top, actors may derail schemes, Deep State temper tantrum, etc...

In general, governments are the order-providing solution for chaos and problems that only first existed inside the minds of those seeking power over others.

Zedd , Nov 14 2019 23:50 utc | 45
Kolomoiski is a U.S. asset. His interview with the NYTimes proves it.

His threats are meant to mobilize NATO and Russia haters in general; because Trump and most of his cadre care nothing for Ukraine.

Does anyone think Russia will give Kolomoiski 100 million dollars? Why was he given an opportunity to threaten the USA? For no reason? Something else is afoot but Russia still won't take the bait because they are winning.

Russia is quite happy with the status quo. The war in Ukraine keeps the war against Russia on a level which is easy to manipulate and therefore geostrategically beneficial. Kolomoiski will get nothing.

flankerbandit , Nov 15 2019 0:59 utc | 48
Jen said...
What does [Kolomoysky] know about Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk air traffic control personnel's direction to MH17 to fly at 10,000 metres in the warzone and not an extra 1,000 metres above as the flight crew had requested?

Okay..so an interesting can of worms here...

First is the fact that Kolomoysky was the governor of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast at the time...

Now as to the flight and Dnipro Radar [the regional air traffic control facility that controls a very big chunk of airspace over eastern Ukraine]...

First the issue of the airplane cruising altitude...the crew had filed their flight plan to climb from flight level 330 [33,000 ft] to FL350 after passing a certain waypoint in eastern Ukraine...

Now the controllers did instruct the crew to go ahead and climb to their planned altitude, but the crew declined the clearance and opted to stay at FL330...this was done very likely because the atmospheric conditions at that height were better for fuel economy...

[To be even more specific...the Boeing manual gave an optimum flight altitude of 33,800 ft, but flying eastward you only have odd numbered flight levels to choose from, so the crew figured they would be better off staying at 33 than climbing to 35...]

BUT...there are a couple of very curious things here...

First is the fact that Dnipro controllers deviated the airplane from its flight plan just before it went down...ostensibly due to other traffic...

We can see this in the following map, which is what's called a high altitude en route chart, which is used by pilots to plan and execute their flight...

Here we see the route of MH17 superimposed on the chart...

You will note a couple of things here...the airplane is flying on the L980 airway [basically a highway in the sky] when it is turned south by controllers to the RND waypoint, which is in Russian territory...

This is NOT the route filed by the crew...which can be seen here...

They were supposed to continue flying on L980 right to the TAMAK waypoint, which is visible on the previous chart and is right on the border with Russia...

They would have continued on the A87 airway to their next waypoint in Russia which is TIKNA...

Now here is the thing...right after they were turned south, they got shot down...

According to the radio transcripts, the crew acknowledged the course change, but did not object...however, usually these kinds of course changes aren't appreciated on the flight deck because the crew is trying to minimize wasted time and wasted fuel on course deviations...

Most times you will just not bother to complain to controllers...but for sure there will always be chatter between the captain and copilot about being yanked around like that...

No mention is made in the Dutch Safety Board report about such chatter from the cockpit voice recorder, which I find very odd...

Also odd is the fact that Dnipro ATC primary radar was down, and only the so-called 'secondary' was working which uses the transponder signals from the airplane...

This is very busy airspace because a lot of flights from western Europe to South Asia traverse this territory...the plan is always to fly what's called a 'great circle route' which is basically a straight line, if you flattened out the globe...

Plus considering that you have a war going on underneath...it's very unusual to have your PRIMARY radar inoperable...

This is significant also because military aircraft will not be using transponders and so will not be visible to the secondary surveillance...

The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable...

So we see some very suspicious anomalies here...

The Ukrainian authorities did have a NOTAM [notice to airmen] in effect up to FL320 [32,000 ft] so commercial traffic could not fly under that height...but clearly they should have closed the airspace over the hot conflict area...

They didn't do that...and Kolomoysky was in charge...

Jen , Nov 15 2019 10:26 utc | 70
Flankerbandit @ 48:
The Russian primary radar did pick up two other aircraft very nearby MH17...but the Dutch have made some kind of excuse about that data not being in 'raw' form and thus not usable...

One of these aircraft was possibly an Air India flight travelling from Delhi to Birmingham. The flight crew was asked by Dnipro ATC to make radio contact with MH17 after the latter plane could not be located by Dnipro ATC personnel. The Air India pilots did try but did not get an answer.

The other craft could have been a Singapore Airlines flight from Denmark to Singapore. Singapore Airlines ran two flights on 17 July 2014 that went within half an hour of MH17 over much the same area travelling from Europe to Singapore.

Peter AU1 , Nov 15 2019 15:44 utc | 83
This is the earliest Russian military presentation on MH17 which shows an SU 25 climbing towards MH17. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=EEbiSRFYTZY&feature=emb_logo

The RT article on the presentation dated July 21 2014
https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Later presentations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=38QHCOvxzfs&feature=emb_logo

This one shows the radar tracking and MH17 changing course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=49vfXBhIJ-s&feature=emb_logo

Peter AU1 , Nov 15 2019 16:02 utc | 85
This is the full video of the July 21 Russian military presentation. It also shows positions of Ukrainian BUK system radar coverage that operating at the time of the shootdown and also sat photos of Ukraine BUK launcher positions in the hours before the shootdown.
Peter AU1 , Nov 15 2019 16:04 utc | 86
Hit post @85 before adding Link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs
flankerbandit , Nov 15 2019 16:18 utc | 88
Thanks Peter for those links...

I will add here also [since we are on the MH17 issue] that the Russians produced a verified paper trail of that BUK missile serial number that the Dutch came up with... showing that it was DELIVERED TO THE UKRANIANS back in the 1980s...

Also that the Russians haven't even used that model of missile for more than 20 years, having replaced them with substantially different, modernized versions...

Also, the Russians performed an extremely rigorous test of a BUK explosion, using a mocked up airplane fuselage... and found results completely inconsistent with what the Dutch have presented...

The whole thing is a disaster for the Nato deep state...nobody is fooled by their bullshit on MH17...

I don't have links right now to those items mentioned above, but it should not be too difficult to find...

Peter AU1 , Nov 15 2019 16:21 utc | 89
flankerbandit "Those three commercial flights are clearly labeled...and the big question is...why was MH17 DIVERTED SOUTH...OFF ITS PLANNED ROUTE...?"

If MH17 was downed by a BUK missile, the southward diversion would be to take it within range of the launchers located in this area https://www.google.com.au/maps/@47.8696896,38.6562502,7533m/data=!3m1!1e3

I did find the exact location of the launchers on google maps some time ago but would take a few hours research to locate it again. The positions of those launchers as in the Russian military presentation also corresponds with the general area Almaz Antey believes a buk missile would have to be launched from to create the damage pattern.

flankerbandit , Nov 15 2019 16:30 utc | 90
Peter, I agree about diverting the plane to get it into range of the Ukrainian BUK...there certainly was no possible reason because of nonexistent 'traffic'...which is the official Dutch story here...

Thanks again for the map info...very interesting to say the least...

I have been simply here raising very obvious questions about the known facts of that flight, as presented by the completely incompetent Dutch...I will leave it to others to connect the dots...[as you are doing].

I also do vaguely recall something about one of the Ukranian controllers coming forward with some info that contradicts the official story...but I could be wrong and don't have any links or anything like that...

Peter AU1 , Nov 15 2019 16:46 utc | 94
flankerbandit

Re the flight controller. There appears to have been something happen there but nothing solid on the various flight controller rumors. Ukraine security did, I think, take all records in the hours after the shootdown.

[Nov 13, 2019] I don't believe I've seen any attempts to emulate 9/11 though. Certainly some other aircraft terrorism, like in Ukraine.

Nov 13, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

Bemildred , Nov 11 2019 15:45 utc | 122

Walter @117:

Well, I noticed the point you raised. I was a software engineer, not a real engineer, so I have steadfastly stayed out of arguments about 9/11 and what really happened.

I have always found the whole 9/11 thing implausible, and still do, but I've been used to that sort of thing since the 60s. Three new impossible things every day. I considered the uses of passenger jets as weapons on more than one occasion while riding around in one, seeing the buildings go by as you glide to the runway, so I wasn't surprised.

And then I realized, like the next day, that our leaders, whomever they might be, intended to make it a military affair, and since then I've been waiting for our collapse.

I don't believe I've seen any attempts to emulate 9/11 though. Certainly some other aircraft terrorism, like in Ukraine.

It was kind of obvious that the Bushites were all ready at the gate when 9/11 happened, Patriot Act Mighty Wurlitzer and all, so I don't doubt their complicity, but other than that I don't want to fight.

[Nov 03, 2019] The MH17 shoot-down seemed timed to allowed many of these most experienced troops to escape the cauldron.

Nov 03, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

krollchem , Nov 2 2019 0:16 utc | 69

Petri Krohn@41

Good point about the underestimated Ukrainian death toll in the war against the DPR and LPR. The number of photos showing Ukrainian destroyed armor suggests larger losses

Add to this was the 7k Ukr troops were surrounded and nearly wiped out near Debaltsevo following the Illovaisk defeat and the several brigades being trapped and mostly destroyed in the SE of the DPR and LPR along the Russian border. The MH17 shoot-down seemed timed to allowed many of these most experienced troops to escape the cauldron.

Meanwhile, damage from Ukrainian shelling and bombing infrastructure of south-eastern Ukrainian breakaway cities of Donetsk and Luhansk is estimated at $440 million.

[Sep 12, 2019] Later on in the distant future, after Tsemakh has been transported to The Hague or Rome, as the court case date draws near, or when Tsemakh is supposed to appear as a "witness" in court, he can always suddenly and unexpectedly expire in prison from some hitherto undiagnosed heart condition.

Sep 12, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

et Al September 9, 2019 at 10:37 am

FlightGlobal.com: MH17: Dutch fail to keep key witness out of prisoner swap

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/mh17-dutch-fail-to-keep-key-witness-out-of-prisoner-460735/

Blok says the Ukrainian side offered to "postpone" the exchange to give Dutch prosecutors the opportunity to interview Tsemach again, and adds that this questioning subsequently took place

Investigators directing the criminal probe into MH17's loss have previously identified four individuals – three Russians and a Ukrainian, none of which is Tsemach – who they are seeking to prosecute over the attack.
####

'interview again '. To repeat the f/king obvious, surely if there was sufficient intelligence/evidence/coffee grounds/magda the gypsy/whatever, then Tsemach would have been handed over. Did they honestly thing that having another crack at him would have provided something? Weak as piss.

Of course the Pork Pie New Networks despite being rather more careful than usual in their reporting of this are having their cake and eating it, i.e. not using phraes like ' smoking gun ' but happy with 'key witness' with no qualifier or anything to back this up. The insinuation is there, but not the actual words. Spineless mofos.

Mark Chapman September 9, 2019 at 3:03 pm
They're just having so much fun with the ridiculous narrative that Russia moved behind the scenes to ensure he was included in the prisoner swap – before you know it, the entire exchange will have been engineered to get Tsemakh out of Ukrainian hands. Why? Well, you know – where there's smoke, there's a crashed airliner, wink, wink.

Moscow never mentioned Tsemakh; if they sent Ukraine a list of prisoners recommended for exchange, he was not on it. But the western media planted the seed that his inclusion in the slate of transferred prisoners was owed to Russian pressure, and it just gets wilder as it goes along.

Jen September 9, 2019 at 3:51 pm
I'd have thought that the Dutch investigators would try to persuade the Banderites to keep Tsemakh in custody on the pretence that his life would be in danger if he were to be returned to Russia, because Lord Vlademort would be displeased that Tsemakh might have let something valuable slip from his lips, let alone be inconsiderate enough as to be arrested in the first place.

Later on in the distant future, after Tsemakh has been transported to The Hague or Rome, as the court case date draws near, or when Tsemakh is supposed to appear as a "witness" in court, he can always suddenly and unexpectedly expire in prison from some hitherto undiagnosed heart condition.

Mark Chapman September 9, 2019 at 7:23 pm
Ukraine released him on bail before the prisoner swap. Obviously they either considered him an insignificant flight risk – given how difficult it must be to collect a bail bond in Ukraine – or knew that he had no information which would be useful to anyone. They might even be using him to spread disinformation in Russia, and all the teeth-grinding from the west all for show, to make the bait sweeter. You never know. But under normal circumstances, when a European country said "Jump", Ukraine's response would be "How high"?

[Sep 12, 2019] The Ukraine had the means and a motive, they should have been treated as a criminal suspect, yet without further investigation they were promoted to member of the JIT that does the criminal investigation

Sep 12, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

et Al September 9, 2019 at 1:25 am

Over at MoA, not 'Stef Blok' writes:

If you read the accident investigation report, on page 239 it clearly states that the Ukrainian army was active with heavy anti-aircraft installations in the eastern part of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian army has BUK rockets of the type that downed MH17.

The Ukraine had the means and a motive, they should have been treated as a criminal suspect, yet without further investigation they were promoted to member of the JIT that does the criminal investigation

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/ukraine-reuters-cnn-and-hrw-make-false-russian-prisoners-claims.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef0240a480da79200c#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef0240a480da79200c

####

More at the link, obvs.

Not to mention that Ukranian TV itself showed Ukranian air defense BUKs on manoeuvers in Eastern Ukraine.

[Aug 26, 2019] The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 The Quest for Truth and Justice. Review of the Evidence - Global ResearchGlobal Researc

Aug 26, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17: The Quest for Truth and Justice. Review of the Evidence By Prof Michel Chossudovsky Global Research, August 14, 2019 Region: Russia and FSU Theme: Intelligence , US NATO War Agenda In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

This background text was prepared in the context of the Kuala Lumpur MH17 Conference entitled MH17: The Quest for Justice, organized by JUST, the PGPF and the CRG.

The underlying objective is to examine the evidence, reveal the truth and uphold the rule of law.

Today, August 17th 2019, our thoughts are with the families of the victims of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 tragedy. The Conference is dedicated to the memory of the victims.

It is also a national tragedy for the people of Malaysia. The downing of MH17 with 283 passengers and 15 crew on board, took place barely a few months following the mysterious disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 after departing on March 8, 2014 from Kuala Lumpur for Beijing, with 227 passengers and 12 crew members on board.

It is worth recalling that immediately after the MH17 plane crash on July 17 2014, prior to the conduct of a preliminary investigation, Secretary of State John Kerry and US Ambassador to the UN Samantha Power pointed their finger at Moscow without a shred of evidence. In turn, the allegations directed against Russia were used to justify the imposition of sweeping economic sanctions against the Russian Federation.


[Jul 31, 2019] New MH17 Documentary Proves Beyond a Doubt that a Cover-Up Took Place by Andrew Korybko

Notable quotes:
"... The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day. ..."
"... " MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident. ..."
"... The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so. ..."
Jul 25, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca
Region: Asia , Europe , Russia and FSU Theme: History , Law and Justice , Media Disinformation In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day.

***

The entire world is already aware of the two competing theories about MH17's downing half a decade ago, with the West insisting that a supposedly Russian-supplied BUK surface-to-air missile accidentally destroyed the passenger aircraft while Moscow has always maintained its innocence and claimed that it's being framed as part of a politically motivated cover-up. Most people have already made up their minds about what they think really happened on that dreadful day, but those who doubt that an actual conspiracy took place might finally reconsider their views after the newly released documentary by Yana Yerlashova together with Dutch investigator Max van der Werff.

The "official" narrative blames Russia for this tragedy, but it's since been revealed through the new evidence and testimonies that active efforts involving a broad array of countries were undertaken from the get-go to paint Moscow as the culprit despite there being no facts whatsoever to back up that provocative claim.

" MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident.

India's "Playing Hard to Get" with America by Letting the AIIB Fund China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/wkDWwYk4-Ho

The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so.

Malaysia's possession of the black boxes ensured that the country would know the truth about what really occurred, which explains why Colonel Sakri also said that both the FBI and the Ukrainian government desperately tried to convince him to hand this evidence over to them immediately afterwards. He rightly refused, and that's why his government never jumped on the bandwagon of blaming Russia since they were aware that there's no conclusive evidence proving its complicity in this affair. This carries immense normative weight that has unfairly been ignored by the Mainstream Media when discussing this case, though it's understandable why they wouldn't want to draw attention to it since that "inconvenient fact" dismantles their anti-Russian infowar. It also would make more people across the world question why they weren't made aware of any of this in the first place, which in today's populist-driven environment could produce more anti-elite outrage than ever before.

Few independent investigators have done as much to reveal the truth about MH17 as Yana Yerlashova and Max Van den Werff, who have done the entire world an enormous service with their latest documentary which has proven once that the Mainstream Media narrative was nothing but a politically motivated lie to blame Moscow while deflecting attention from Kiev and its probable culpability in causing this tragedy.

Those who already knew this won't be surprised, but there are nevertheless many more who had no idea about this side of the story, which is why this documentary is a much-watch and should be shared with as many people as possible, especially on social media so that others can become aware of the evidence and testimonies that his work includes in order to finally make up their minds about what really happened.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Andrew Korybko is an American Moscow-based political analyst specializing in the relationship between the US strategy in Afro-Eurasia, China's One Belt One Road global vision of New Silk Road connectivity, and Hybrid Warfare. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research.

[Jul 29, 2019] WATCH MH17 -- Call for Justice

Jul 29, 2019 | off-guardian.org

Bonanza media investigative team of independent journalists conduct exclusive interviews with one of the suspects in the downing the MH17, the Malaysian prime minister, the colonel that collected the black boxes and much more.

Eye-opening testimonies from witnesses and irrefutable evidence from experts. Exclusive footage shot in Malaysia, the Netherlands and at the crash area in Ukraine.

[Jul 26, 2019] The JIT "investigation" was rotten: Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

Notable quotes:
"... including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix ..."
"... I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary . ..."
Jul 26, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 25 JULY 2019 by Patrick Armstrong - Sic Semper Tyrannis

MH17. I have always thought the JIT "investigation" was rotten – see this (port engine intake – BIG clue as to direction of missile). We now have a documentary that reiterates Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

But including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix . I'm sceptical that it was a BUK (too few fragments); I think the fighter plane sighting reports should be looked at. I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary .

The Twisted Genius ,

MH17. Thanks for that link to the documentary. It laid out a clear case that the JIT investigation stinks to high heaven. I think you may have participated in some of our discussions on this years ago.

https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/judging-by-your-analysis-and-comments-i-gather-that-you-find-it-near-inconceivable-that-the-ukrainian-junta-forces-could-hav.html
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/another-look-at-the-aa-missile-theory-ttg.html

Judging by some of the eyewitness accounts in the documentary, I'm leaning more to a shoot down by a Ukrainian SU-25. I was always puzzled by the change of direction of the airliner's flight path before it broke up. A chase/strafing run and AA missile strike seems a more likely explanation for that direction change that a sudden Buk strike.

I believe the Ukies had versions of the SU-25 with pressurized cockpits and refurbished to handle the R-60, R-73 and Israeli Python missiles.

Do you know if anyone is still researching this scenario?