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Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 ?
Notes on propaganda war around the tragedy

Facts? Who needs facts when your task is hysterical scapegoating to promote neoliberal agenda. Thus MSM coverage of the incident became a classic "kangaroo court"

High resolution version of this picture that contains round holes in it is available from http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf

More photos at Flickr Jeroen Akkermans RTL News Berlin's Photostream

News The Far Right Forces in Ukraine Recommended Links Some technical characteristics of SU-25 relevant to MH17 tragedy

BUK air defense system

Why air space over Donetsk province was not closed

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Events of November 30 and aftermath SBU raid on Kiev Batkivshchina office Revolt of diplomats Nulandgate EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis Inside "democracy promotion" hypocrisy fair
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"Process in which the mechanisms of projection or displacement are utilized in focusing feelings of aggression, hostility, frustration, etc., upon another individual or group; the amount of blame being unwarranted."

A definition of scapegoating[2]

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed... Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it... The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one... What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

Adolf Hitler

 

 


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[Sep 12, 2019] Later on in the distant future, after Tsemakh has been transported to The Hague or Rome, as the court case date draws near, or when Tsemakh is supposed to appear as a "witness" in court, he can always suddenly and unexpectedly expire in prison from some hitherto undiagnosed heart condition.

Sep 12, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

et Al September 9, 2019 at 10:37 am

FlightGlobal.com: MH17: Dutch fail to keep key witness out of prisoner swap

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/mh17-dutch-fail-to-keep-key-witness-out-of-prisoner-460735/

Blok says the Ukrainian side offered to "postpone" the exchange to give Dutch prosecutors the opportunity to interview Tsemach again, and adds that this questioning subsequently took place

Investigators directing the criminal probe into MH17's loss have previously identified four individuals – three Russians and a Ukrainian, none of which is Tsemach – who they are seeking to prosecute over the attack.
####

'interview again '. To repeat the f/king obvious, surely if there was sufficient intelligence/evidence/coffee grounds/magda the gypsy/whatever, then Tsemach would have been handed over. Did they honestly thing that having another crack at him would have provided something? Weak as piss.

Of course the Pork Pie New Networks despite being rather more careful than usual in their reporting of this are having their cake and eating it, i.e. not using phraes like ' smoking gun ' but happy with 'key witness' with no qualifier or anything to back this up. The insinuation is there, but not the actual words. Spineless mofos.

Mark Chapman September 9, 2019 at 3:03 pm
They're just having so much fun with the ridiculous narrative that Russia moved behind the scenes to ensure he was included in the prisoner swap – before you know it, the entire exchange will have been engineered to get Tsemakh out of Ukrainian hands. Why? Well, you know – where there's smoke, there's a crashed airliner, wink, wink.

Moscow never mentioned Tsemakh; if they sent Ukraine a list of prisoners recommended for exchange, he was not on it. But the western media planted the seed that his inclusion in the slate of transferred prisoners was owed to Russian pressure, and it just gets wilder as it goes along.

Jen September 9, 2019 at 3:51 pm
I'd have thought that the Dutch investigators would try to persuade the Banderites to keep Tsemakh in custody on the pretence that his life would be in danger if he were to be returned to Russia, because Lord Vlademort would be displeased that Tsemakh might have let something valuable slip from his lips, let alone be inconsiderate enough as to be arrested in the first place.

Later on in the distant future, after Tsemakh has been transported to The Hague or Rome, as the court case date draws near, or when Tsemakh is supposed to appear as a "witness" in court, he can always suddenly and unexpectedly expire in prison from some hitherto undiagnosed heart condition.

Mark Chapman September 9, 2019 at 7:23 pm
Ukraine released him on bail before the prisoner swap. Obviously they either considered him an insignificant flight risk – given how difficult it must be to collect a bail bond in Ukraine – or knew that he had no information which would be useful to anyone. They might even be using him to spread disinformation in Russia, and all the teeth-grinding from the west all for show, to make the bait sweeter. You never know. But under normal circumstances, when a European country said "Jump", Ukraine's response would be "How high"?

[Sep 12, 2019] The Ukraine had the means and a motive, they should have been treated as a criminal suspect, yet without further investigation they were promoted to member of the JIT that does the criminal investigation

Sep 12, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

et Al September 9, 2019 at 1:25 am

Over at MoA, not 'Stef Blok' writes:

If you read the accident investigation report, on page 239 it clearly states that the Ukrainian army was active with heavy anti-aircraft installations in the eastern part of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian army has BUK rockets of the type that downed MH17.

The Ukraine had the means and a motive, they should have been treated as a criminal suspect, yet without further investigation they were promoted to member of the JIT that does the criminal investigation

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/ukraine-reuters-cnn-and-hrw-make-false-russian-prisoners-claims.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef0240a480da79200c#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef0240a480da79200c

####

More at the link, obvs.

Not to mention that Ukranian TV itself showed Ukranian air defense BUKs on manoeuvers in Eastern Ukraine.

[Aug 26, 2019] The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 The Quest for Truth and Justice. Review of the Evidence - Global ResearchGlobal Researc

Aug 26, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17: The Quest for Truth and Justice. Review of the Evidence By Prof Michel Chossudovsky Global Research, August 14, 2019 Region: Russia and FSU Theme: Intelligence , US NATO War Agenda In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

This background text was prepared in the context of the Kuala Lumpur MH17 Conference entitled MH17: The Quest for Justice, organized by JUST, the PGPF and the CRG.

The underlying objective is to examine the evidence, reveal the truth and uphold the rule of law.

Today, August 17th 2019, our thoughts are with the families of the victims of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 tragedy. The Conference is dedicated to the memory of the victims.

It is also a national tragedy for the people of Malaysia. The downing of MH17 with 283 passengers and 15 crew on board, took place barely a few months following the mysterious disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 after departing on March 8, 2014 from Kuala Lumpur for Beijing, with 227 passengers and 12 crew members on board.

It is worth recalling that immediately after the MH17 plane crash on July 17 2014, prior to the conduct of a preliminary investigation, Secretary of State John Kerry and US Ambassador to the UN Samantha Power pointed their finger at Moscow without a shred of evidence. In turn, the allegations directed against Russia were used to justify the imposition of sweeping economic sanctions against the Russian Federation.


[Jul 31, 2019] New MH17 Documentary Proves Beyond a Doubt that a Cover-Up Took Place by Andrew Korybko

Notable quotes:
"... The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day. ..."
"... " MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident. ..."
"... The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so. ..."
Jul 25, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca
Region: Asia , Europe , Russia and FSU Theme: History , Law and Justice , Media Disinformation In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day.

***

The entire world is already aware of the two competing theories about MH17's downing half a decade ago, with the West insisting that a supposedly Russian-supplied BUK surface-to-air missile accidentally destroyed the passenger aircraft while Moscow has always maintained its innocence and claimed that it's being framed as part of a politically motivated cover-up. Most people have already made up their minds about what they think really happened on that dreadful day, but those who doubt that an actual conspiracy took place might finally reconsider their views after the newly released documentary by Yana Yerlashova together with Dutch investigator Max van der Werff.

The "official" narrative blames Russia for this tragedy, but it's since been revealed through the new evidence and testimonies that active efforts involving a broad array of countries were undertaken from the get-go to paint Moscow as the culprit despite there being no facts whatsoever to back up that provocative claim.

" MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident.

India's "Playing Hard to Get" with America by Letting the AIIB Fund China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/wkDWwYk4-Ho

The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so.

Malaysia's possession of the black boxes ensured that the country would know the truth about what really occurred, which explains why Colonel Sakri also said that both the FBI and the Ukrainian government desperately tried to convince him to hand this evidence over to them immediately afterwards. He rightly refused, and that's why his government never jumped on the bandwagon of blaming Russia since they were aware that there's no conclusive evidence proving its complicity in this affair. This carries immense normative weight that has unfairly been ignored by the Mainstream Media when discussing this case, though it's understandable why they wouldn't want to draw attention to it since that "inconvenient fact" dismantles their anti-Russian infowar. It also would make more people across the world question why they weren't made aware of any of this in the first place, which in today's populist-driven environment could produce more anti-elite outrage than ever before.

Few independent investigators have done as much to reveal the truth about MH17 as Yana Yerlashova and Max Van den Werff, who have done the entire world an enormous service with their latest documentary which has proven once that the Mainstream Media narrative was nothing but a politically motivated lie to blame Moscow while deflecting attention from Kiev and its probable culpability in causing this tragedy.

Those who already knew this won't be surprised, but there are nevertheless many more who had no idea about this side of the story, which is why this documentary is a much-watch and should be shared with as many people as possible, especially on social media so that others can become aware of the evidence and testimonies that his work includes in order to finally make up their minds about what really happened.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Andrew Korybko is an American Moscow-based political analyst specializing in the relationship between the US strategy in Afro-Eurasia, China's One Belt One Road global vision of New Silk Road connectivity, and Hybrid Warfare. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research.

[Jul 29, 2019] WATCH MH17 -- Call for Justice

Jul 29, 2019 | off-guardian.org

Bonanza media investigative team of independent journalists conduct exclusive interviews with one of the suspects in the downing the MH17, the Malaysian prime minister, the colonel that collected the black boxes and much more.

Eye-opening testimonies from witnesses and irrefutable evidence from experts. Exclusive footage shot in Malaysia, the Netherlands and at the crash area in Ukraine.

[Jul 26, 2019] The JIT "investigation" was rotten: Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

Notable quotes:
"... including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix ..."
"... I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary . ..."
Jul 26, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 25 JULY 2019 by Patrick Armstrong - Sic Semper Tyrannis

MH17. I have always thought the JIT "investigation" was rotten – see this (port engine intake – BIG clue as to direction of missile). We now have a documentary that reiterates Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

But including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix . I'm sceptical that it was a BUK (too few fragments); I think the fighter plane sighting reports should be looked at. I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary .

The Twisted Genius ,

MH17. Thanks for that link to the documentary. It laid out a clear case that the JIT investigation stinks to high heaven. I think you may have participated in some of our discussions on this years ago.

https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/judging-by-your-analysis-and-comments-i-gather-that-you-find-it-near-inconceivable-that-the-ukrainian-junta-forces-could-hav.html
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/another-look-at-the-aa-missile-theory-ttg.html

Judging by some of the eyewitness accounts in the documentary, I'm leaning more to a shoot down by a Ukrainian SU-25. I was always puzzled by the change of direction of the airliner's flight path before it broke up. A chase/strafing run and AA missile strike seems a more likely explanation for that direction change that a sudden Buk strike.

I believe the Ukies had versions of the SU-25 with pressurized cockpits and refurbished to handle the R-60, R-73 and Israeli Python missiles.

Do you know if anyone is still researching this scenario?

[Jul 25, 2019] A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US, and Australian governments.

Jul 25, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

jsb , Jul 24 2019 21:15 utc | 36

What about the MH-17 "conspiracy theories"? A recent video " MH17: Call for Justice' (2019) " produced by Max van der Werff blows the lid off (just the tip of the iceberg) of the propaganda put worth by the West.
A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US, and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian – Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.

...

The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them

( Source )

[Jul 23, 2019] MH17 Evidence-Tampering Exposed Cover-Ups, Hiding Records, Witness Misreporting, FBI Seizures

Jul 23, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by John Helmer,

A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

[Jul 23, 2019] John Helmer MH17 Evidence Tampering Revealed by Malaysia – FBI Attempt To Seize Black Boxes; Dutch Cover-Up of Forged Telephon

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable. ..."
"... A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time. ..."
"... Malaysia's exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained. ..."
"... The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court. ..."
"... The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27. ..."
"... Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29. ..."
"... In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source: https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian control. ..."
"... Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians; for details, read this . ..."
"... Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the June 19, 2019 , press conference of JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU. ..."
"... Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. ..."
"... She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony." ..."
"... According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the Ukrainian Army were there." ..."
"... Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it." ..."
"... Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice for the victims," Zakaria said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?] "Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions." ..."
"... Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g. here for others)? ..."
"... Why is no journalist raising these questions? ..."
"... Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh? ..."
"... That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. ..."
"... Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.) ..."
"... Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists? ..."
"... And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right after the shooting of the plane. ..."
"... "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103 site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight. ..."
"... I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link. Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down in high summer. And so it went on. ..."
"... Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were seriously not barking. ..."
"... That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. ..."
"... Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia". ..."
"... If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians. ..."
"... The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will begin to find peace. ..."
Jul 23, 2019 | www.nakedcapitalism.com

Yves here. Hoo boy. The idea that eastern Ukrainian insurgents or Russia would target a passenger plane never made any sense (unless the plane had high-priority targets or cargo), although it's always been possible that the downing of MH17 was an accident, and some efforts to explain what happened are based on that idea. For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable.

A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian -- Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.

The 298 casualties of MH17 included 192 Dutch; 44 Malaysians; 27 Australians; 15 Indonesians. The nationality counts vary because the airline manifest does not identify dual nationals of Australia, the UK, and the US.

The new film throws the full weight of the Malaysian Government, one of the five members of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), against the published findings and the recent indictment of Russian suspects reported by the Dutch officials in charge of the JIT; in addition to Malaysia and The Netherlands, the members of the JIT are Australia, Ukraine and Belgium. Malaysia's exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained.

The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27.

The 28-minute documentary by Max van der Werff and Yana Yerlashova has just been released. Yerlashova was the film director and co-producer with van der Werff and Ahmed Rifazal. Vitaly Biryaukov directed the photography. Watch it in full here .

The full interview with Prime Minister Mahathir was released in advance; it can be viewed and read here .

Mahathir reveals why the US, Dutch and Australian governments attempted to exclude Malaysia from membership of the JIT in the first months of the investigation. During that period, US, Dutch, Australian and NATO officials initiated a plan for 9,000 troops to enter eastern Ukraine, ostensibly to secure the crash scene, the aircraft and passenger remains, and in response to the alleged Russian role in the destruction of MH17 on July 17; for details of that scheme, read this .

Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29.

Malaysian resistance to the US attempts to blame Moscow for the aircraft shoot-down was made clear in the first hours after the incident to then-President Barack Obama by Malaysia's Prime Minister at the time, Najib Razak. That story can be followed here and here .

In an unusual decision to speak in the new documentary, Najib's successor Prime Minister Mahathir announced: "They never allowed us to be involved from the very beginning. This is unfair and unusual. So we can see they are not really looking at the causes of the crash and who was responsible. But already they have decided it must be Russia. So we cannot accept that kind of attitude. We are interested in the rule of law, in justice for everyone irrespective of who is involved. We have to know who actually fired the missile, and only then can we accept the report as the complete truth."

On July 18, in the first Malaysian Government press conference after the shoot-down, Najib (right) announced agreements he had already reached by telephone with Obama and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President. " 'Obama and I agreed that the investigation will not be hidden and the international teams have to be given access to the crash scene.' [Najib] said the Ukrainian president ‎has pledged that there would be a full, thorough and independent investigation and Malaysian officials would be invited to take part. 'He also confirmed that his government will negotiate with rebels in the east of the country in order to establish a humanitarian corridor to the crash site,' said Najib. He also said that no one should remove any debris or the black box from the scene. The Government of Malaysia is dispatching a special flight to Kiev, carrying a Special Malaysia Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team, as well as a medical team. But we must – and we will – find out precisely what happened to this flight. No stone can be left unturned."

The new film reveals in an interview with Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the head of the Malaysian team, what happened next. Sakri's evidence, filmed in his office at Putrajaya, is the first to be reported by the press outside Malaysia in five years. A year ago, Sakri gave a partial account of his mission to a Malaysian newspaper .

Source: https://www.youtube.com/

"I talked to my prime minister [Najib]," Colonel Sakri says. "He directed me to go to the crash site immediately." At the time Sakri was a senior security official at the Disaster Management Division of the Prime Minister's Department. Sakri says that after arriving in Kiev, Poroshenko's officials blocked the Malaysians. "We were not allowed to go there so I took a small team to leave Kiev going to Donetsk secretly." There Sakri toured the crash site, and met with officials of the Donetsk separatist administration headed by Alexander Borodai .

With eleven men, including two medical specialists, a signalman, and Malaysian Army commandos, Sakri had raced to the site ahead of an armed convoy of Australian, Dutch and Ukrainian government men. The latter were blocked by Donetsk separatist units. The Australian state press agency ABC reported their military convoy, prodded from Kiev by the appearance of Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans, had been forced to abandon their mission. That was after Colonel Sakri had taken custody of the MH17 black boxes in a handover ceremony filmed at Borodai's office in Donetsk on July 22.

US sources told the Wall Street Journal at the time "the [Sakri] mission's success delivered a political victory for Mr. Najib's government it also handed a gift to the rebels in the form of an accord, signed by the top Malaysian official present in Donetsk, calling the crash site 'the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic.' That recognition could antagonize Kiev and Washington, which have striven not to give any credibility to the rebels, whose main leaders are Russian citizens with few ties to the area. State Department deputy spokeswoman Marie Harf said in a briefing Monday that the negotiation 'in no way legitimizes' separatists."

The Australian state radio then reported the Ukrainian government as claiming the black box evidence showed "the reason for the destruction and crash of the plane was massive explosive decompression arising from multiple shrapnel perforations from a rocket explosion." This was a fabrication – the evidence of the black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, first reported six weeks later in September by the Dutch Safety Board, showed nothing of the kind; read what their evidence revealed .

Foreign Minister Bishop, in Kiev on July 24, claimed she was negotiating with the Ukrainians for the Australian team in the country to carry arms. "I don't envisage that we will ever resort to [arms]," she told her state news agency, "but it is a contingency planning, and you would be reckless not to include it in this kind of agreement. But I stress our mission is unarmed because it is [a] humanitarian mission."

In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source: https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian control.

By the time she spoke to her state radio, Bishop was concealing that the plan for armed intervention, including 3,000 Australian troops, had been called off. She was also concealing that the black boxes were already in Colonel Sakri's possession.

The document signed by Sakri for the handover of the black boxes is visible in the new documentary. Sakri signed himself and added the stamp of the National Security Council of Malaysia.

Col. Sakri says on film the Donetsk leaders expressed surprise at the delay of the Malaysians in arriving at the crash site to recover the black boxes. "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." Source: https://www.youtube.com/ Min. 05:47.

Sakri goes on to say he was asked by the OSCE's special monitoring mission for Ukraine to hand over the black boxes; he refused. He was then met by agents of the FBI (Min 6:56). "They approached me to show them the black box. I said no." He also reports that in Kiev the Ukrainian Government tried "forcing me to leave the black boxes with them. We said no. We cannot. We cannot allow."

The handover ceremony in Donetsk, July 22, 2014: on far left, the two black boxes from MH17; in the centre, shaking hands, Alexander Borodai and Mohamad Sakri.

Permission for Colonel Sakri to speak to the press has been authorized by his superiors at the prime ministry in Putrajaya, and his disclosures agreed with them in advance.

Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians; for details, read this .

Van der Werff and Yerlashova contracted with OG IT Forensic Services , a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, to examine the telephone tapes. The Kuala Lumpur firm has been endorsed by the Malaysian Bar . The full 143-page technical report can be read here .

The findings reported by Akash Rosen and illustrated on camera are that the telephone recordings have been cut, edited and fabricated. The source of the tapes, according to the JIT press conference on June 19 by Dutch police officer Paulissen, head of the National Criminal Investigation Service of The Netherlands, was the Ukrainian SBU. Similar findings of tape fabrication and evidence tampering are reported on camera in the van der Werff film by a German analyst, Norman Ritter.

Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the June 19, 2019 , press conference of JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU.

Minute 16:02 Right: Norman Ritter presented his analysis to interviewer Billy Sixt to show the telephone tape evidence has been forged in nine separate "manipulations". One of the four accused by the JIT last month, Sergei Dubinsky, testifies from Min. 17 of the documentary. He says his men recovered the black boxes from the crash site and delivered them to Borodai at 23:00 hours on July 17; the destruction of the aircraft occurred at 1320.

Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. "I dare them to publish the uncut conversations, and then you will get a real picture of what was discussed." (Min. 17:59).

Van der Werff and Yerlashova filmed at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. Several local witnesses were interviewed, including a man named Alexander from Torez town, and Valentina Kovalenko, a woman from the farming village of Red October. The man said the missile equipment alleged by the JIT to have been transported from across the Russian border on July 17 was in Torez at least one, possibly two days before the shoot-down on July 17; he did not confirm details the JIT has identified as a Buk system.

Kovalenko, first portrayed in a BBC documentary three years ago (starting at Min.26:50) as a "unique" eye-witness to the missile launch, clarifies more precisely than the BBC reported where the missile she saw had been fired from.

BBC documentary, " The Conspiracy Files. Who Shot Down MH17 " -- Min. 27:00. The BBC broadcast its claims over three episodes in April-May 2016. For a published summary, read this .

This was not the location identified in press statements by JIT. Van der Werff explains: "we specifically asked [Kovalenko] to point exactly in the direction the missile came from. I then asked twice if maybe it was from the direction of the JIT launch site. She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony."

According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the Ukrainian Army were there."

Kovalenko also remembers that on the days preceding the July 17 missile firing she witnessed, there had been Ukrainian military aircraft operating in the sky above her village. She says they used evasion techniques including flying in the shadow of civilian aircraft she also saw at the same time.

On July 17, three other villagers told van der Werff they had seen a Ukrainian military jet in the vicinity and at the time of the MH17 crash.

Concluding the documentary, van der Werff and Yerlashova present an earlier interview filmed in Donetsk by independent Dutch journalist Stefan Beck, whom JIT officials had tried to warn off visiting the area. Beck interviewed Yevgeny Volkov, who was an air controller for the Ukrainian Air Force in July 2014. Volkov was asked to comment on Ukrainian Government statements, endorsed by the Dutch Safety Board report into the crash and in subsequent reports by the JIT, that there were no radar records of the airspace at the time of the shoot-down because Ukrainian military radars were not operational.

Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it."

Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice for the victims," Zakaria said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?] "Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions."

By John Helmer , the longest continuously serving foreign correspondent in Russia, and the only western journalist to direct his own bureau independent of single national or commercial ties. Helmer has also been a professor of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia. He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia. Originally published at Dances with Bears


Jeff , July 23, 2019 at 2:54 am

I always come back to the same three questions:
1. If all civilian and military radars were out of order, why was the flight not redirected out of the Ukrainian airspace and into some territory with radar?
2. Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g. here for others)?
3. Why is no journalist raising these questions?

(I got a partial answer to 3. "because only Kremlin trolls and conspiracy specialists doubt the official/Bellingcat version")

vlade , July 23, 2019 at 4:13 am

Re 1) active radar is not used that much in civilian flight control anymore, it's basically a back-up for passive transponder pick up. Dnipro Control was monitoring the flight using passive (that's for example how they knew they were off their approved airway L980 and asked them to get back, which, if there was no radar, they could not do). Passive (civilian) radar is no use in tracking missiles or military planes with no transporder on.

So the question 1) is irrelevant.

Colonel Smithers , July 23, 2019 at 4:50 am

Thank you, Gentlemen.

Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh?

Having grown up in a military family and knowing what precautions are taken, I am staggered at how Bell End Cat can track down Russian secret servicemen with such ease and in their homeland.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 8:55 am

If you watch the film, you'd learn that there were back-ups so not all were out of order. And if we knew the answer to your questions, we'd likely know 'who done it.'

JerryDenim , July 23, 2019 at 4:28 am

Undoubtedly there's something quite rotten afoot here, and I'll be sure to give this film a watch, but honestly the Malaysians have zero credibility when it comes to airplane crashes involving their national airline, especially after they deliberately fed false information to rescue and recovery teams concerning MH 370's flight path. Whatever they knew or didn't know they had no interest in helping anyone find that airplane or discover what took place onboard before it vanished. They should spare us all any sanctimony about 'justice for victims, truth, rule of law, etc.'

It seems the world has a real credibility crisis today, not many state actors I trust to tell the truth or not politicize tragedy. These revelations certainly make it seem more likely Ukrainian forces were to blame for downing MH17, but at this point the mystery will never be conclusively solved. Two warring factions with the exact same equipment/weaponry in close proximity, compromised crash sites, tons of propaganda, lots of interested parties seeking to maximize the tragedy for political gain, corrupt authorities all around.

Not an ideal situation for objective fact finding to say the least. With the 1MBD scandal and investigation still ongoing I have no doubts the Malaysians are probably looking for leverage and bargaining chips where ever they can find them, further eroding their objectivity and authority in my opinion. Getting to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination will be easier than MH17, but if the truth does come out it will not be owed to the virtues of the Malaysian government. They've already shown the world how much they care about airplane crash investigations.

Yves Smith Post author , July 23, 2019 at 4:49 am

I have to tell you, this is an ad hominem argument, which is a violation of our site Policies. You need to deal with the evidence and not attack the source. With MH370, you had a crash of a plane under the control of the carrier, not as a result of an air strike.

Ian Perkins , July 23, 2019 at 11:19 am

Quite apart from the ad hominem nature of JerryDenim's comment (and I disagree with Yves Smith; I think the credibility of sources is relevant), what motive would Malaysia have for siding with Russia/east Ukraine against the west/west Ukraine? Does JerryDenim know of one, or have any suggestions?

vlade , July 23, 2019 at 4:31 am

TBH, I have dire doubts on anything Malaysian government says, due to their handling of MH370 where they continue lying in face of hard facts (that doesn't mean I believe any governments on this).

I believe that the most likely cause is an accidental shooting down, where an inexperienced and untrained separatist crew messed up (this is what you get when even a semi-sophisticated equipment gets to untrained people who are keen to use it).

For me it fits Occam's razor the most, and is the only theory which explains the (documented) boasting of the separatists of a large military plane being shot down immediately after the catastrophe.

Joe Well , July 23, 2019 at 9:23 am

>>I have dire doubts on anything Malaysian government says

But on the other side of the scale is the credibility of the US, Dutch and Ukranian security services.

>>the (documented) boasting of the separatists of a large military plane being shot down immediately after the catastrophe.

Isn't that what the Malaysians are trying to debunk by saying the recordings were falsified? (or were they talking about something else?)

RalphR , July 23, 2019 at 4:43 am

How is "Russia did it" logical? That part of Ukraine was in the hands of separatists, not "Russia". "Russia" was not directing their activities. Russia does not want to control the eastern part of Ukraine, which is an economic basket case. But it doesn't want hostile forces parked on its border.

RalphR , July 23, 2019 at 6:52 am

Sorry, that's irrelevant even if true. Even if "Russia" was formally providing troops, as opposed to engaged in a massive wink and nod (a LOT of Russians had relatives in eastern Ukraine, a point you forget re motives and numbers), that's way way way short of any evidence they were in charge.

Plus I was wrong on the key point, and it renders your argument moot. From Rev Kev below:

That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 9:18 am

This response is non-sensical. Have you been to the cemeteries you mention? Any picture can be posted and a caption written – that is no proof of anything. Besides the point being irrelevant to the question of who shot down the plane.

Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.)

Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists?

Eustache de Saint Pierre , July 23, 2019 at 1:33 pm

I suppose if one believes the West's preferred version of Putin as some Bond type villain who takes great delight in shooting down planes full of civilians, presumably while stroking a large white cat then I suppose the he dunnit version is the one for you.

Personally I believe that Putin is not an idiot & would likely have been more interested in putting out that fire than throwing more fuel onto it. As for who has any credibility – the Ukrainians under Porkyschenko with their Neo-Nazi element, would I think be at the bottom of my list & that is without mentioning Neo-Cons with their Noble Lie BS.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 2:03 pm

And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right after the shooting of the plane.

Colonel Smithers , July 23, 2019 at 5:07 am

Thank you, Yves.

"Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103 site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight.

The US team took charge even though they were on foreign soil.

The Rev Kev , July 23, 2019 at 5:57 am

That was a pretty gutsy move on the Malaysians to send in their own retrieval team for those recorders. I bet that those Malaysian commandos would have a story to tell or two. The danger wasn't from the rebels however but from the west and their allied Ukrainians. The rebels were more than glad to hand over the records that they found at first opportunity but the information, once in the hands of the west, has been seeping out with all the speed of the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link. Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down in high summer. And so it went on.

There was a very slow walk to stop people going to the crash site. One Australian couple who lost someone went there in spite of the efforts of our government to stop them. Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were seriously not barking. A link from this page talks about how there is a silence when MH17 got hit. I have heard recordings of aircraft that went down and there is usually something – a bang, crumpling, warning calls, shouts – but here there was nothing.

That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. Having said that, Tony Abbott was Prime Minister of the time and Julie Bishop was his Foreign minister and they are both hard right politicians (now both thankfully gone) and may have been entertaining such thoughts.

My belief is that this was an operation to try and retrieve the situation in the Ukraine for the west. The US alone spent over $5 billion on this coup but Russia grabbed the crown jewels of Crimea (with its naval bases & off-shore gas fields) and eastern Ukraine which has a border with Russia. That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. Ask yourself – who benefited from this tragedy and that will tell you where to go looking for answers. Maybe, like happened with the Meuller investigation, Russian legal representations should show up in a court of law and start demanding the discovery process of all the evidence. Now that could get interesting.

Camp Lo , July 23, 2019 at 9:07 am

Rebels were the first to respond to the crash scene, recording themselves with a camcorder. The rebels were convinced they had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet and were searching for a pilot that would have ejected. The rebels then thought a fighter downed the airliner and they downed the fighter. Their commander speaking in both Russian and Ukrainian tells the rebels to stop filming and clear the area of civilians. The footage was aired by News Corp Australia.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 9:21 am

If you watch this film, there is a large segment about how the audio recordings were manipulated.

The Rev Kev , July 23, 2019 at 10:08 am

Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia".

Carolinian , July 23, 2019 at 9:37 am

If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians.

Of course Western sources will say the Russians have no credibility but then they don't either–the fog of propaganda war.

The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will begin to find peace.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 2:00 pm

No, it would not. Watch the film if you want to get some sense of how complicated the whole thing is.

[Jul 22, 2019] MH17 as a pretext for NATO to "recover the plane and the victims" makes sense

Notable quotes:
"... If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first, and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site, thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion. ..."
"... If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've been covering up their own tracks. ..."
Jul 22, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

somebody , Jul 22 2019 9:16 utc | 114

Malaysia explains why it has a different opinion on MH17

via John Helmer

MH17 as a pretext for NATO to "recover the plane and the victims" makes sense.

dh-mtl , Jul 22 2019 15:26 utc | 158

somebody | Jul 22 2019 9:16 utc | 114

Thanks for the link to the John Helmer article.

If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first, and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site, thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion.

If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've been covering up their own tracks.

[Jul 18, 2019] Russian Nationals Falsely Charged with Downing MH17 - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Notable quotes:
"... Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft "indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986." ..."
"... By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or scrapped," adding: ..."
"... "The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed forces." ..."
"... A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten. ..."
"... Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings. ..."
Jul 18, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Russian Nationals Falsely Charged with Downing MH17 By Stephen Lendman Global Research, June 20, 2019 Region: Russia and FSU Theme: History , Law and Justice , Media Disinformation In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

Not a shred of credible evidence suggests Russia or its nationals had anything to do with downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine airspace, all passengers and crew members perishing at the time.

So-called Joint Investigation Team (JIT) member countries Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Ukraine (US sponsored Kiev regime) in cahoots with the US and NATO falsely claimed otherwise. Russia and Malaysia were excluded from the probe.

Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft "indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986."

By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or scrapped," adding:

"The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed forces."

Clearly Russia had nothing to do with downing MH17, nor did Donbass freedom fighters. The incident had US and Kiev fingerprints all over it.

A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten.

Five years later, the Big Lie about what happened persists, ignoring what's obvious. What possible reason would Russia have to down a commercial aircraft anywhere?

The Obama regime and Kiev putchists it installed clearly benefit from blaming Russia for what no credible evidence suggests it had anything to do with.

Yet on Wednesday, the JIT falsely blamed three Russian nationals -- Igor Girkin (connected to its Federal Security Service), military intelligence officials Sergei Dubinsky and Oleg Pulatov , along with pro-Moscow Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko for downing MH17.

Placed on an international want list, a show trial with them in absentia is scheduled for March 9, 2020, the above individuals falsely charged with murder.

A JIT spokesperson said

Malaysian Airlines MH17 Downing Big Lie Resurfaces

"(w)e are still gathering new data for investigation, because we will start prosecuting now, but the investigation will continue."

Dutch chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the following:

"Today, we will send out international arrest warrants for the four suspects that we will prosecute," adding:

"They will also be placed on national and international wanted lists. Because of that, we (are) reveal(ing) their full names show(ing) you their pictures" -- despite no credible evidence of their involvement in what happened.

Russia categorically rejects the fabricated JIT accusations, calling them "absolutely baseless." No credible evidence supports them.

Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings.

No Russian missile crossed the Ukrainian border, its Defense Ministry stressed, the missile used given to Ukraine in 1986, identified by its serial number, as explained above.

The above-named JIT suspects are convenient patsies, wanting them and Russia blamed for what the US and Kiev were responsible for.

... ... ...

Source: NYT

Russophobic NYT editors jumped on the falsified JIT accusations. Turning truth on its head, they said the following:

"In Vladimir Putin's Kremlin, lying -- willfully, methodically, shamelessly -- is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing" -- a longstanding US, NATO, Israeli specialty, not how Putin's Russia operates.

It's also standard procedure for the Times and other establishment media, featuring managed news misinformation and disinformation, suppressing hard truths on major issues, especially geopolitical ones.

The Times: "Russia's involvement (in downing MH17) has long been clear" -- a bald-faced Big Lie.

The Times: "(A) Russian missile launcher belonging to an active Russian military unit was driven into eastern Ukraine and used to fire a Buk missile at the Malaysian jumbo jet" -- another bald-faced Big Lie.

Because of its global reach, the Times is the closest thing to an official US ministry of propaganda, carpet-bombing its readers with falsified official narrative rubbish in lieu of high journalistic standards the way they're supposed to be.

The Times and other establishment media abandoned them long ago, giving yellow journalism they feature a bad name.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Award-winning author Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago. He can be reached at lendmanstephen@sbcglobal.net . He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). His new book as editor and contributor is titled "Flashpoint in Ukraine: US Drive for Hegemony Risks WW III." http://www.claritypress.com/LendmanIII.html Visit his blog site at sjlendman.blogspot.com .

The original source of this article is Global Research Copyright © Stephen Lendman , Global Research, 2019

[Jul 13, 2019] Faked Tape Released by Ukrainian Intelligence Within Hours of MH17 Shoot Down Shows that the Attack was Premeditated and Committed by Ukrainian Forces by : veganmark

Notable quotes:
"... I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files ..."
"... They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev. ..."
"... I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident. ..."
"... if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to bamboozle the world with a doctored tape? ..."
"... The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that "this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack. ..."
"... An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?), lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17. ..."
"... We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot down on the rebels? ..."
"... The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility. ..."
"... The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day ..."
"... The JIT readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane, as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.) ..."
"... The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants. ..."
"... The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing, it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration. ..."
Jul 13, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

veganmark on Thu, 07/11/2019 - 12:17pm

Within hours of the shoot down of MH17, Ukrainian intelligence released a video purporting to show that pro-Russian rebels had shot down the plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw&feature=youtu.be

Subsequent analysis demonstrated that the video was a concocted fraud. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T34AB6CImTE&feature=youtu.be

Note this comment by "Valerie1" below - the kill shot:

I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files.

Real conversations do not have overlapping samples/soundbytes and splices people. This video proves it hands down. Kiev faked the files.

They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev.

I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident.

In any case, if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to bamboozle the world with a doctored tape?

Here's an excerpt from an unpublished essay I wrote about 4 years ago (unpublished because I presumed it would be met with mockery or indifference at DKos) that is pertinent:

Also curious is the fact that Ukrainian air traffic control directed MH-17 out of its usual path, so that it passed over rebel-controlled area near Donetz. This is not known to have happened before. Immediately after the shoot-down, the Ukrainian secret police (SBU) seized the air traffic control records for the flight, and have never released them. The new flight path took the plane directly over the base of noted rebel commander Igor Bezler ("Bes"). Within five hours after the crash, SBU released a video tape in which Bes appeared to be confirming that his forces had just shot down a plane; comments by other rebels on the tape seem to imply that this plane was MH-17. Subsequent analysis indicated that Bes' comments had been taped the day previous to the crash, and that he was referring to shoot down of a Ukrainian military plane; this was then spliced to tape taken after the shoot down of MH-17, in which rebels referred to the crash site.

https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points...

https://www.21cir.com/2014/07/mh-17-false-flag-fake-video-made-before-cr...

The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that "this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack.

With respect to deception by the Ukrainian government, the investigation by BND [German intelligence] indicated that photos supplied by Kiev "have been manipulated"; however, they did not indicate what photos they were referring to. In any case, if Ukraine was blameless in this affair, why wouldn't scrupulous honesty be their best policy? At this point, the balance of evidence seems to point to the Ukrainian military – likely a rogue element controlled by neo-Nazis or an oligarch such as Kolomoisky (who when interviewed referred to the MH-17 shoot down as "a trifle") -- acting without knowledge of the central government, as the culprit. Parry cites several speculations regarding the motives of those involved. One theory is that the perpetrators thought that they were shooting at Putin's plane returning from a recent trip to South America (he just had, but via a different route). Another possibility is that they thought they were shooting at a Russian intruder returning to Russia. But the theory that, according to Parry, is taken most seriously by elements of our intelligence community, is that the shoot-down was intended as a false flag operation which could be blamed on the rebels or Russians. (These intelligence sources believe that the Ukrainian central government was unaware of this plot.) If this is the case, then the ploy worked admirably, as the MH-17 shoot-down was used to justify turning up the intensity of sanctions imposed on Russia – and most Americans still assume as a matter of course that Russia or its rebel allies were responsible.

The most significant development since I wrote this is that the Russian-manufactured BUK whose fragments were found among the wreckage and is presumed to have shot down MH17, was shown to have been transferred to the Ukrainian SSR prior to the dissolution of the USSR, and hence must have been in the possession Ukraine when it became independent. This of course markedly strengthens the case that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the shoot down.

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/

There is however continued speculation that Ukrainian fighter jets also attacked MH17, as maintained by retired pilot Peter Haisenko.

If we take it [a hacked audio conversation] seriously, it casts an interesting light on a once popular theory that Ukrainian SU-25 jets, claimed by Russia to have tailed MH-17 ( https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/ - this is disputed by BND), fired upon it. This was supported by the observation that some of the holes in the cockpit of the MH-17 had an appearance suggestive of machine gun fire.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-...

Nonetheless, this theory cannot explain the bulk of the holes in the cockpit, and the conclusion that a BUK missile was mainly responsible for downing the plane appears sound. This hack suggests a scenario in which an SU-25 fired on the jet but was unable to bring it down, in part because, as is well known, it is difficult for such jets to fly at the 33,000 foot altitude at which MH-17 was flying. This might explain a report that the plane veered sharply before it plummeted to earth. As the jet attack had failed in its objective, a BUK missile was required to bring MH-17 down.

An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?), lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17.

The fact that the fighter jet theory has received no attention from the Ukraine-organized JIT (Joint Investigation Team) tasked with investigating the shoot down is hardly surprising, since involvement of Ukrainian jets would evidently point the finger at Ukraine as the culprit. Incredibly, this UN-recognized JIT agreed up-front that Ukraine, one of the chief suspects in the tragedy, would have veto rights over the JIT's report.

https://theduran.com/joint-investigation-team-mh17-case-still-open/

We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot down on the rebels?

The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility.

The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day. This narrative is "supported" in the main by photos and audios helpfully provided by Ukrainian intelligence, some of which have been found to be doctored. (Who wudda thunk it?!) The JIT readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane, as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.)

Whenever the Western Deep State has a false narrative it wishes to push, Bellingcat can be relied on to concoct "evidence" supporting it. It has been a key perpetrator of the hoax regarding "Assad gassing his own people". In particular, Bellingcat pushed the discredited view that Assad's forces had gassed Douma. It has also been intent on blaming Russian intelligence for the attack on the Skripals.

Roy Blakeley on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 11:19am
Interestingly

The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants.

The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing, it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration.

Bob In Portland on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 3:56pm
As a reminder

I covered some of this in an earlier essay here:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/okeydoke-americans-were-supposed-get

Pluto's Republic on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 4:39pm
Thanks, Bob.

@Bob In Portland

Always good to see updates in the essays at any point in time. We're writing a history, here, as objective as we can muster.

[Jul 01, 2019] Is There a Pattern to the MH17 Blame Game - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Jul 01, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Is There a Pattern to the MH17 Blame Game? By Grete Mautner Global Research, July 01, 2019 New Eastern Outlook 27 June 2019 Region: Europe , Russia and FSU Theme: History , Media Disinformation

Washington's recent attempt t o use the tragic downing of Malaysian flight MH-17 over the Donbass region of Ukraine, which occurred on July 17, 2014 is nothing short of pathetic. Instead of making an attempt to bring to justice those responsible for this crime it tries instead to unleash yet another wave of anti-Russian hysteria. In this situation, it's only logical that this latest attempt has gone down in flames yet again.

It would seem that everything was done in accordance with a carefully drafted script. We've had a major media show with the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) coming forward to announce that the investigation was nearing closure. It's curious that among those countries that have sent their representatives to JIT one can find Ukraine, a possible perpetrator of the attack on MH-17, alongside the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia, and Belgium. Then we had the typical bad guy – Russia, that in the opinion of the JIT was most certainly responsible for the downing of MH-17 and the untimely demise of 298 people. Western puppets would even go as far as to release the names of four people allegedly responsible for the attack.

As for the puppeteers, they would use the head of the US Department of State, Michael Pompeo for making appeals to Russia to immediately put in jail those people the JIT described as perpetrators.

However, this entire propaganda push would only work on day-to-day consumers of American media, who still believe that Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi "got what they deserved" and that Iran and North Korea somehow represent some sort of threat to the international community. However, there's an ever growing number of people in the world who wouldn't fall for such lies anymore, as they've seen them all too often before.

There's little doubt that the Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad is among such people, as he made it pretty clear that there's no proof whatsoever of Russia's involvement in the downing of MH-17. In fact, he would claim that:

" We are very unhappy because from the very beginning it became a political issue on how to accuse Russia of the wrongdoing So far there is no proof. Only hearsay."

In turn, the founder of the conservative Dutch party Forum for Democracy, Thierry Baudet would announce that he has no confidence whatsoever in the JIT and its impartiality, while pointing out that Ukraine must be responsible for this attack.

According to Heise, there's no doubt that Kiev is fully responsible for this tragedy, as it had failed to close the airspace over the contested territories of Donbass and withheld evidence from the investigation. It would add that the Dutch Safety Board was conducting its own investigation of the downing and at some point was convinced that Kiev was behind this attack, however it left a legal loophole for Kiev for it to escape any consequences. As for Russia, Heise argues, it was decided to name it responsible for this tragedy, since Ukraine was acting on Washington's behalf in this downing and it will continue enjoying its protection.

It's curious that t he JIT final report has left a lot of questions unanswered, most of them emerge due to the absence of any actual evidence that could allow this body to allocate responsibility for the catastrophe to some party and could be used in court. Yet, the Netherlands and Australia were quick to announce that they had no doubt whatsoever, even though JIT would cite pictures and messages taken from social media as their sources of information. It didn't bother those behind the so-called final report that they had no access to the Pentagon's satellite images and any sort of data from Ukrainian radars, even though those could serve as actual evidence along with similar data Russia provided to shed light on the actual perpetrators of the attack.

The claims that certain Western media sources would make, about the downing of MH17 "rallying the West against Russia" can only be described as laughable, even though it's clear that this was Washington's initial intention which led to the release of the "final report"

Yet another attempt to present Russia as a bogeyman has garnered no sympathy in Europe, especially against the backdrop of revelations London has recently made about the role of its intelligence agencies in the downing of PA 103 three decades ago. Back then a bomb that exploded on board Pan American Flight 103, en route from London to New York was used to undermine Libya and warrant the overthrow of its leader – Muammar Qaddafi. What this false-flag essentially required was the falsification of evidence and the conviction in a rigged court proceeding of the wrong man. The extent of that operation has recently been exposed in a partial release of British Government documents from the UK ' s National Archives.

It's been noted that those archive disclosures also show that the same modus operandi has been under way since 2014 to fabricate blame for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukraine, and justify global sanctions against Russia, plus operations to overthrow Vladimir Putin.

That is why Malaysia must take the investigation into its own hands and receive all the necessary assistance from the international community to establish who was responsible for the MH17 downing. It's clear that the JIT was more concerned with pleasing Washington than establishing the truth.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Grete Mautner is an independent researcher and journalist from Germany, exclusively for the online magazine " New Eastern Outlook. "

Featured image is from NEO

[Jun 29, 2019] The West's Moral Bankruptcy Exposed

Notable quotes:
"... That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky. ..."
"... However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in Western media. ..."
"... On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah. ..."
"... There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects (Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity in MH17. ..."
"... MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm. ..."
"... The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia. ..."
"... Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. ..."
Jun 29, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

First there was the Dutch-led inquiry into downing of the Malaysian MH17 airliner, which put the finger of blame on Russia for the disaster in 2014 when all 298 people onboard were killed.

That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky.

Despite its evident failures of due process, nonetheless Western governments and media have lent the JIT allegations (slanders) undue credibility. The US, Britain and other NATO members last week called on Russia to comply with the JIT "investigation", smearing Moscow as guilty of causing the MH17 deaths.

However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in Western media.

For its part, Russia has vehemently rejected allegations of involvement in the MH17 disaster, as have pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels. Russia's repeated offers of contributing information to the probe have been rebuffed by the Dutch-led JIT. By contrast, Russia's own investigation has uncovered credible radar and forensic evidence that an anti-aircraft missile fired at the passenger jet actually came from military forces under the Kiev regime's command. Russia's evidence has been steadfastly ignored by Western media reports.

The credible suspect party -- Kiev political and intelligence authorities -- have been allowed to participate in and frame the JIT probe to inculpate Russia. The US, European Union and NATO back the Neo-Nazi dominated regime in Kiev, financially and militarily , since it seized power in a violent coup d'état back in 2014. That should be the real focus of scandal in the MH17 story.

On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah.

Now contrast the undue priority given to the above dubious JIT claims with two other reports also out last week.

One was on the horrific death toll among civilians in Yemen inflicted by the Western-backed Saudi-led war on that country. It is estimated that over 90,000 people have been killed in violence over the past four years, with most of the civilian victims caused by indiscriminate Saudi air strikes.

It is an indisputable fact that the US, Britain, France, Germany and other NATO powers have been arming the Saudi regime with warplanes, helicopters, missiles and logistics to carry out this slaughter of Yemeni civilians. The Western states are complicit in war crimes.

President Trump continues to defy US lawmakers by ordering multi-billion-dollar arms sales to Saudi Arabia, despite the carnage. The British government and wannabe prime minister Boris Johnson claims that its weapons exports are not involved in killing Yemeni civilians, in blatant denial of the facts.

A British court last week ruled that UK weapons exports were in breach of its own supposed ethical codes protecting civilian lives in conflicts. The British government is set to appeal the court ruling and will likely ignore it anyway given the systematic relationship of Britain arming Saudi Arabia -- the UK's biggest weapons export market -- year after year.

Western media last week, as usual, gave only minimal reporting on the shocking human suffering in Yemen. The whole barbarity and Western governments' culpability is largely hushed-up and omitted by the media.

... ... ...

Meanwhile, the US and its NATO allies impose sanctions on Russia based on unsubstantiated allegations about MH17, Ukraine, Crimea, election meddling, the Skripal spy poisoning affair, among other fabrications. Those sanctions -- based on flimsy innuendo -- are leading to ever-worsening relations with Russia and international tensions between nuclear powers. Western media do not expose the insanity, they foment it.

Such media are unwilling and incapable of pointing out this gross double standard. They propagate the double standard.

The moral bankruptcy of Western governments must be covered up by a servile media. Because the state, corporate power and media are all complicit.

Truth, justice and democracy, which they pontificate about, have nothing to do with the functioning of Western capitalist power; they're mere illusions to distract from systematic criminality. Last week was an object lesson for those willing to see it.


Evil Liberals , 3 hours ago link

There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects (Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity in MH17.

MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm.

The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia.

MilwaukeeMark , 3 hours ago link

The bigger questions is, "who aboard was not meant to arrive where they were heading?".

Helg Saracen , 3 hours ago link

In Kiev, the "Khazar mafia" is strong, more precisely Chabad Lyubavichi (headquarters in New York). Kolomoisky (a member of Chabad Lyubavichi and the owner of the Nazi death squads in the former Ukraine) ...

messystateofaffairs , 4 hours ago link

Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. The whore running the recruit victim country is promised personal bribes, and the security services of the gang which it must also support and pay for, in return for forgoing a degree of sovereignty. NATO is just another NWO one centrally managed world scam.

[Jun 28, 2019] Why Vault 7 Tools Used by Private Contractors Shows US Intel Needs a Ground-Up Rebuild Part 2 OffGuardian by GH Eliason

Apr 18, 2017 | off-guardian.org

First, let's look at Bellingcat involvement in Ukraine.

On July 11th 2014 an event happened that shook my world, literally. Bellingcat reported that the Russians attacked Ukrainian armed forces from across the border in Zelenopillya. The Ukrainians suffered traumatic losses. Once again, Eliot Higgins provides the data to determine this. Once again Bellingcat was wrong about the origin of the attack.

This single battle marked the turning point for the entire war. The Donbass militia went on a large offensive for the first time and destroyed a big Ukrainian encampment with a rocket attack.

How can I afford to be so assertive? At 4:30 in the morning on July 11th every house in my town started shaking because of the massive explosions going on at Zelenopillya. I did say it shook my world, didn't I?

I was between the Russian border and the camp. We could see the smoke from the rockets and the sky was lit with the explosions . The explosions were loud enough to wake the dead that morning. There were no rockets flying over my head. For Russia to fire them, that's exactly where they would have been.

At that point we were under Ukrainian occupation for a couple of months. Two days before the attack on Zelenopillya happened, a Ukrainian army officer told the post master to get the children out of town within 2 days. The army was pulling out and a cleansing battalion (Donbas battalion) was coming in to weed out "separatists and supporters." That was when I came face to face with Mark Paslowsky, the American nazi . The article gives his background and tells what was going on.

Bellingcat misidentifies the weapon as artillery. Grad rockets were fired at Zelenopillya by the Rovenki militia that day. I spoke with the militia that fired them about 1 week after the fact. In the linked articles the Ukrainians state plainly that it was militia using Grad rockets.

The Ukrainians took some of their wounded across the border to Russia. It's not quite something you do if Russia was really attacking you. The worst injuries were treated locally. Donbass people ran there after the battle to help the wounded and the Ukrainian soldiers were treated at local hospitals. Ukraine abandoned them.

The story got a lot of play in the west in the west as a Russian attack on Ukraine thanks to this event. It was added to the list of reasons to sanction Russia. If the attack on Zelenopillya didn't happen, I probably wouldn't be here to write this.

For the third time on an important event, Bellingcat shows it cannot identify the origin or firing location of a weapon and misidentifies both the weapon type and the direction of fire in media.

Getting the facts straight about the MH-17 shoot down is the difference between hundreds of families getting justice and closure for those deaths or never seeing it. Convict the wrong party and justice is never served. New victims are made with false or erroneous evidence.

Bellingcat's importance to the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) investigation of MH-17 is apparent through all the media Higgins and Toler are quoted in media as the independent experts.

That last statement should grab your attention. Bellingcat and its founders Elliot Higgins and Aric Toler's credibility rests on the fact that they are independent researchers. If they are working for an interested party in any investigation, Bellingcat's credibility is destroyed and their research means nothing. After all, it's been paid for.

Bellingcat really grabbed the public's attention and imagination after the shoot down of flight MH-17 over Ukraine. Independent researchers Higgins and Toler went to work to find the missile launch site and the responsible parties, or did they?

As early as February 2014, Higgins showed the beginning of a clear pattern regarding Ukraine. In the tweet below this OSINT expert researcher was linking to a 1 month old blog started by Sviatoslav Yurash . What's special about Yurash at this time is that he was Ukrainian ultranationalist Dimitry Yarosh's English language spokesman. If that well known fact wasn't enough to caution Higgins, what was?

In the next article to follow, starting with Yurash as the first example, I'll show you how all these volunteer experts including Higgins get paid. The article will further cement and establish the relationships between Bellingcat, Weisburd, Watts and other intel and news headline providers with each other as well as their employers.

For now, the admission made by the Ukrainian Information Ministry and Aric Toler will have to be enough.

"September 29 and November 19, 2015 in Kharkov Crisis Infocentre Information Policy Advisor to the Minister Dmitry Zolotukhin conducted trainings on the search for information in open sources for journalists and bloggers in Kharkov.

In addition, already 21 November Dmitry Zolotukhin met with his US counterpart, team representative Bellingcat Arik Toler , who conducted a similar training for journalists in Kyiv on the invitation of Media Development Foundation. They also discussed the possibility of holding a conference in Kiev on thematic instruments OSINT-use techniques in the modern media."

One of the Media Development Center's sponsors is NATO . It is a project of the US Embassy in Kiev because of the association with the embassy's diplomatic paper, the Kyiv Post.

If that isn't enough, let's see how close Bellingcat's Aric Toler views the relationship.

According to both Information Policy Advisor Dmitry Zolotukhin and Toler, they are partners. Eric Toler and Eliot Higgins(Bellingcat), along with Aaron Weisburd, Clint Watts, and Joel Harding have been working with the same Ukrainian Information Ministry that started the "Mytorovyets" or Peacekeeper website.

They help the SBU geo-locate people in Ukraine. As shown above, they also train people to geo-locate anyone considered anti-Maidan or anti-nationalist in Ukraine. They didn't disappoint.

The Ministry of Information has been targeting journalists in Ukraine by geo-location for arrest or murder . The first public case was the Ukrainian journalist Oleh Buzina in May 2015. This was one month after my first article about Peacekeeper showed clearly that this was its purpose.

I think this pretty well sums up how independent Bellingcat's investigation has been. To add insult to injury, Higgins and Toler work directly with previously identified Ukrainian Intelligence hackers and Pravy Sektor members (ultra-nationalist Ukrainians) to get Bellingcat "independent research" information.

InformNapalm and its hackers are Ukrainian Intel agents working for the Information Ministry. In their own words – The main activities of the project are collecting and analysing OSINT-information , found in open sources, including social networks. InformNapalm's investigation of 53rd Artillery Brigade commander colonel Sergei Muchkayev, suspected of killing the MH17 passengers, was used in the report of the Bellingcat research team .

Who was the information source for independent researchers at Bellingcat? Dimitry Yarosh's best friend, Valentyn Nalivaychenko was one of them. In the spring of 2014, he replaced SBU(Ukraine's Security Service) personnel with ultra-nationalists because they had the right ideology. Another was Anton Gerashchenko who is responsible for persecuting the press in Ukraine.

In few days and hours after the crash of MH17 Ukrainian officials widely publicly discussed all that data (except the photo of "Paris Match") anonymously downloaded by someone to social nets. For example on July 17 Gerashchenko (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the photo of Buk at Torez; on July 18 Avakov (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the video of Buk at Luhansk; also on July 18 Nalivaychenko (the chief of Ukrainian security service) showed the video of Buk at Snizhne, and on July 19 Vitaliy Naida (Ukrainian security service) showed shot fragment of video frame (not the video itself) from Zugres.

Under the best circumstances Bellingcat's research can only be seen as a Ukrainian Intelligence production. If neither Higgins or Toler were actively engaged with Ukrainian operations on the many levels that they are, their source material is still very tainted. When all your research material comes from a party under investigation, you are no longer a neutral party. You can't pee in a blood sample and call it evidence. Are Higgins and Toler credible? You decide.

Max van der Werff has become a go-to resource for understanding information about MH-17. I have spoken at length with Max and his fellow researchers @bellingmouse. This linked article shows the strength of research these REAL volunteers have brought to the MH-17 investigation . I had to ask Max the great who-dun-it question. His response was after thousands of hours of research, he didn't know. Too many people were withholding information and remaining uncooperative on all sides.

What he was sure of is that Bellingcat's research is shoddy and a lot of the evidence appears fabricated.

Max van der Werf has been interviewed by the JIT investigative team on 4 occasions, given over 6 hours of recorded interviews to them, as well as over 14GB of data.

Examples of this include the fact that all of the images and video are such low quality and resolution, it's impossible to make definite determinations from them.

One of the chase vehicles (jeep) in Bellingcat's BUK convoy is driving with the door open. In another image of the BUK transport supposedly taken by a local resident, the apartment was not occupied in the summer of 2014. There was no one there to take the image. It was again so grainy and low quality that even a military vehicle substitution was not noticeable. None of the neighbors that were there saw a BUK on a trailer.

The route of travel according to Bellingcat would have taken the BUK launcher toward the conflict zone twice while battles were being fought across the region. Anyone familiar with the area or that had a map would take a direct route which would have made it much less noticeable driving through unpopulated areas.

Images taken after the shoot down are just as bad. Some unimportant parts of the image are in focus while it's almost impossible to make out the BUK even though it's right beside the photographer.

The so-called wire-tapped conversation was proven to be a Ukrainian SBU production. How is it still a part of the evidence chain?

What van der Werff and @bellingmouse have proven unequivocally is that another investigation needs to take place that looks for real evidence. The JIT, for their part had the impossible task of investigating a hostile shoot-down of a jetliner with no previous airline disaster investigation experience in a war zone that was active. The problem with it is objectivity was thrown out the window as soon as Ukraine got the right to reject evidence and control what would be made public.

What has looking for Ruskies done? In the eyes of Congress it made you and every publication that strives for neutral information or even writing from their political slant a Ruskie. You work for Vladimir Putin.

It has taken away any hope of justice for people in Syria and the families of MH-17 victims unless real neutral investigations take place.

It's taken away real news from the masses and replaced it with policy pieces from people that get paid to hate you. You are after all, the Russian interference that they talk about.

It's time to stop this bs.

[Jun 28, 2019] Malaysian Prime Minster saying Russia was framed and is getting really close to the likelihood that the shooting down of MH17 with 298 deaths was an intentional American plan/act (Ukraine would not have done it without US instruction)

Notable quotes:
"... I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President. ..."
Jun 28, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

ADKC , Jun 28, 2019 11:35:04 AM | 182

What will prove to the real big lasting news over the last couple of week was when the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad called the Joint Investigation Team's (JIT) position on the MH17 case politically motivated and unproven:

"We are very unhappy, because from the very beginning it was a political issue on how to accuse Russia of wrongdoing,"

This is tantamount to the Malaysian Prime Minster saying Russia was framed and is getting really close to the likelihood that the shooting down of MH17 with 298 deaths was an intentional American plan/act (Ukraine would not have done it without US instruction). There are so many strange things about the shooting down of the MH-17 that it really is very unlikely that Russia or the Donetsk or Luhansk rebels had anything to do with it.

Now think what that means. The MH-17 was shot down in 2014 very likely as part of a US plan to frame Russia while Obama was President. And you Americans have no real concern about this? You don't exert any kind of pressure on your representatives, you just don't think it's important.

I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President.

james , Jun 28, 2019 11:41:27 AM | 183

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad is generally always outspoken and defies the establishment... when i was in malaysia in 2016 i happened to pick up his autobiography which i quite enjoyed.. i am happy to see he is back and speaking his mind.. it's always refreshing even if a person doesn't agree with him.. he is also one of the few leaders in the world today that i actually consider a 'leader'... the malaysians are lucky to still have him as pm today...

[Jun 27, 2019] Compromised MH17 Airline Crash Investigation Ukrainians Desperate to Find Scapegoat by Raúl Ilargi Meijer

Jun 27, 2019 | russia-insider.com
The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start. The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.

Russia reacted by "annexing" Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access to its only warm water port. Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian origin- also didn't want to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil war which continues to this day.

It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality. 3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.

Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious. The countries even signed a secret agreement.

Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.

In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from Russia and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team produced no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.

It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have been ignored.

The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.

So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves? Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?

There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that. Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay. I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.

And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March 2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.

The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.

On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.

I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018, MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven, which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says: " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic - which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be - then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."

Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.

There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done. And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.

Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea.

But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.

[Jun 26, 2019] Four men accused of murder based on distorted MH-17 investigation by Clara Weiss

Google translation from Norwegian
Jun 25, 2019 | www.wsws.org

Joint Research Team (JIT) – etterforskningsteamet created in 2014 to investigate the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 over Eastern Ukraine on 17. July 2014, which resulted in 298 deaths-announced the 19. June that the public prosecution in the Netherlands shall criminally prosecute four persons for murder.

The four suspects – Igor Girkin, Sergeij Dubinskij, Oleg Juldasjevitsj (all three russians) and Leonid Khartsjenko (Ukrainian citizen) – were, and are in some cases still are, active as leaders of the Russian-supported separatism uprising in Donbass. They are now facing international arrest orders and will be brought to justice on the 9th. March 2020. Since the Netherlands cannot require extradiction from either Russia or Ukraine, it is likely that the case will be brought, and that the defendants will be sentenced in absentia.

The four men, as well as the Russian government, claim that they did not at all have any dealings with the plane crash. The Russian president Vladimir Putin reiterated Russia's rejection of the JIT, the commission, and said during a "åpenlinje" the questioning at the Russian TV last Friday that he was "completely disagree" with the evidence that the commission promoted.

The Malaysian president Mahathir Mohamad condemned the charges as politically motivated: "What the us concern, we will have evidence on skyldighet. But so far there is no evidence. Just rumors."

The shooting down of the plane happened at the height of the crisis in Ukraine and civil war in 2014, triggered by the united STATES - and Germany-supported the coup in Kiev in 2014, which was led by fasciststyrker and parts of the Ukrainian oligarchat, in close collaboration with Washington and Berlin. The Ukrainian and the us government, the EUROPEAN union and the international bourgeois media rushed to accuse Russia for the shooting down of the plane, even before any alleged evidence was presented. It was utilized as a new variant of "Gulf of Tonkin", a vague and dubious military event that imperialistmaktene could use as a pretext for war.

The MH-17 case has been out of limelight in recent years. The military structure toward Russia, led by the united STATES and NATO, and the U.S.-led economic warfare against the country, however, has accelerated.

The announcement last week about the criminal persecution came at the same time with an escalation of both the Trump administration's krigsforberedelser against Iran, which could trigger a direct conflict with Russia, and The democratic party's ongoing campaign against Trump, focusing on his allegedly "soft" attitude to Russia. It also comes at the same time with the growing conflicts between the united STATES and the european imperialistmaktene, especially Germany, among others, of Russian gassforsyninger to Germany through the pipeline NordStream2.

The western bourgeois press jumped on the announcement and produced a flood of comments, which the New York Times' redaksjonsråd suggested that flystyrten was not less than "state-sponsored murder". International media such as Der Spiegel essentially presented JIT's announcement and "discovery" for its readers as facts.

The Washington Post wrote that the "international investigators" had "worked diligently to uncover the truth" and "peel away Russia's lies about the downed Malaysian Airlines plane". The newspaper rejected without further evidence presented by the Russian federation for a possible Ukrainian involvement as "false".

In fact, JIT's announcement of the criminal prosecution of these four men is based on ancient discoveries that have no credibility. JIT investigation are significantly biased and part of a massive campaign to exploit the 298 men's tragic death in order to escalate the antiRussland krigsforberedelser. After almost five years with this "investigation" has not been presented any evidence of Russian state involvement, and significant evidence which points to a potential Ukrainian involvement has been deliberately suppressed.

JITs "findings" that claim that a Russian SA-11 BUK-missile system allegedly was carried by the Russian army to russiskstøttede østukrainske the separatists were continuously referred to as "evidence" of Russian involvement.

An engraver report by journalist Robert Parry in 2016 pointed to several holes and contradictions in this version. The other piece of "evidence" is barely audible phone calls, supposedly avlytninger of the Russian military sources, which should indicate that the SA-11 BUK-missilsystemet was deliberately delivered to the separatists. These calls refers, however, not at any point explicitly to the missle system or to transport across the Russian-Ukrainian border.

The fact that not only Russian but also American and Dutch intelligence has found evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement, is entirely omitted from the official press coverage.

In October 2015 raised the Dutch intelligence service MIVD that the only high-energy-antifly-missilsystemene in Eastern Ukraine could have shot down MH-17, where it was flying at 33 000 feet altitude belonged to the Ukrainian military.

An anonymous u.s. intelligence analyst explained in 2015 that "finally, the analysis pointed at a non-authorized Ukrainian operation, which involved a pro-regime oligarch. "Malaysian news media reported as early as in august 2014 that the official representative for American intelligence assumed that the aircraft had been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet. Official Russian militærrepresentanter has also released radar data that seemed to show a Ukrainian jetfighter of the type Sukhoi-25 behind the passasjerflyet MH 17 at the time it was shot down.

JIT-etterforskningens primary goal has been to suppress and divert attention from any evidence that suggests the Ukrainian rather than the Russian involvement. Not a single report produced by the commission in the last five years have once tried to avsanne the evidence pointing to the Ukrainian military involvement in the nedskyvningen of the aircraft. They were simply ignored.

This is no coincidence. Contrary to the way it is presented by the media, JIT is not an independent body of "international investigators". It includes representatives of the Dutch, belgian, malaysian and Ukrainian government and the secret services. From the very beginning, the Russian government has been excluded from participating in the investigations.

Although Ukraine itself should have been considered as a suspected part in any serious investigation, not only the cooperation JIT with Kiev, but operated under an agreement that made it possible for the Ukrainian government to veto the release of information. There could hardly have been a more obvious case of disqualification.

The Ukrainian secret service (SBU), who was heavily involved in both the imperialiststøttede fascistkuppet in Kiev in February 2014, and in subsequent operations of the ytrehøyrekrefter in the civil war, was Ukraine's official representative in the JIT. The SBU massively influenced the investigation.

An internal JIT report from 2016, said: "Since the first week in september 2014 has investigators from the Netherlands and Australia worked here [in Kiev]. They work here in close cooperation with Ukraine's security service (SBU). Immediately after the crash, the SBU gave access to a large number of tapped phone calls and other data. ... While at first it was rather formal, cooperation with the SBU has become more and more flexible. 'Particularly because of the data analysis we were able to prove our added value,' says [the Dutch politirepresentaten] Gert Van Doorn. 'Since then, we see in every way that they associate with us in an open way. They share their questions with us, and think with, as much as they can.'"

It was, incidentally, also SBU who provided the avlyttede the phone calls and other materials that are now being universally referred to as "evidence" for a Russian involvement.

Despite these obvious contradictions and violations of the legitimate etterforskningsprosedyre, presented JITs "findings" and the actions that are credible, definitive "proof" for the "Russian guilt". This witness again to what lengths bourgeois media and western imperialister is prepared to go, in their criminal and dangerous campaign against Russia – a ruthless campaign that could trigger a war between the world's two largest atomvåpenmakter.

[Jun 24, 2019] I agree the JIT has become a fraudulent enterprise. To publicly announce indictments while simultaneously pleading for witnesses to step forward to help confirm the theory on which the indictments are based - that is not a judicial procedure as commonly understood.

Jun 24, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

evilempire , Jun 23, 2019 2:09:56 PM | 53

Regarding the JIT indictments, the JIT has dropped all pretense of
objectivity, which isn't surprising since it was a criminal co-conspiracy
from its inception. They have now revealed themselves as nothing but
a hit squad and lynch mob for the real perpetrators. Russia should
be building a case for a criminal referral of the JIT to the ICC.
It has a pretty solid case since the JIT investigation has devolved into
an obscene travesty involving reams of incriminating actions by the JIT,
which has willfully smothered all the hard, factual, scientific evidence
and fraudulently promoted all the fake, phony fabrications of the high perps.
Charging the JIT with collusion in mass murder may be a reach, but the indictments
of Strelkov et alia is so off the wall and batshit insane there surely must be
grounds for prosecutorial misconduct.

jayc , Jun 23, 2019 2:26:51 PM | 60

I agree the JIT has become a fraudulent enterprise. To publicly announce indictments while simultaneously pleading for witnesses to step forward to help confirm the theory on which the indictments are based - that is not a judicial procedure as commonly understood. The JIT has taken like OPCW - a public relations arm of NATO concerned solely with filtering biased information to western publics.

[Jun 22, 2019] MH17 Report Compromised From The Start

Notable quotes:
"... The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors. ..."
"... Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even signed a secret agreement. ..."
"... Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced. ..."
"... " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side." ..."
"... Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points. ..."
"... Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea. ..."
"... The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth. ..."
"... The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk farce. ..."
"... ...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have dishonored by their actions and lies. ..."
"... Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly one case where red/blue team were on the same team. ..."
"... Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government. That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands. ..."
"... So think about that when talking about the "neutrality" of The Netherlands in the MH17 investigation. ..."
"... How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles. The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident. ..."
Jun 22, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,

The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start.

The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.

Russia reacted by "annexing" Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access to its only warm water port. Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian origin- also didn't want to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil war which continues to this day.

It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality. 3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.

Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even signed a secret agreement.

Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.

In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from Russia and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team produced no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.

It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have been ignored.

The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.

So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves? Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?

There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that. Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay. I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.

And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March 2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.

The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.

On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.

I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018, MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven , which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says:

" if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."

Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.

There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done. And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.

Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea.

But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.


Skane , 38 minutes ago link

Malaysia has had combative relations Israel for decades. Mossad is the most likely culprit in the shoot down of MH-17. That's how Israelis work. You don't do what they tell you to do, they stage a mass-shooting or a bombing....... or shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians. No cost is too great for the chosenites.

" By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War" ...... pretty much all you need to know.

Longfisher , 45 minutes ago link

The "investigation" was a sham from the beginning.

I followed it closely for a year or so. Having done so I think a great evil was done, purposefully, but not by Russia.

Popsiq , 54 minutes ago link

The investigation is much like that mock-up of the downed craft - 40 percent missing and 90 percent empty. What evidence there is has been 'filtered' through Kyiv or 'created' by Bellingcat. The rest is the stuff of news conferences.

The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth.

I would hope the upcoming trial is held in an open, preferrably international, venue where the 'evidence' will be tested instead of being merely 'read into the court record'. If Russia-which has the most to lose - has anything to do with that - three Russian citizens gave been charged - it will be.

Tiritmenhrta , 58 minutes ago link

It was "made up" from the beginning with only one goal - BAD RUSSIANS (as always).

Western hypocrisy (as always too...)

madashellron , 1 hour ago link

Ukraine is the Fox guarding the hen house!!!

lastugro , 1 hour ago link

The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk farce.

A jet fighter approached MH17 from the right side of MH17, firing for some secs (at 25 rounds/sec) at the cockpit then crossing the MH17 track, approaching from the left side and firing again at the cockpit.

The publically available pictures of the MH17 left side cockpit wall show the effects of the powerful 30mm Grazyev-Shipunov aircraft guns and the formidable kinetic energy of the bullets. Such bullets flew through the B777 airframe and exited through the other side piercing everything in the way. The gun barrels must be replaced each time after firing 2000 rounds!!!

In the MH17 cockpit wall there are holes showing bullets flying into it from both directions, a feat never ever demonstrated by one single warhead explosion because all shrapnels start flying from one point.

The attack clearly started by eliminating the pilots, so there was no Mayday call from MH17 or other distress signals. When such a large B777 aiframe is hit by a misslie, it still continues to fly for some minutes and the pilots could eventually manage to report the attack (by a jet fighter). The planners of this attack knew this stuff and prevented the pilots from sending emergency calls by killing them first. Thereafter the jet fighter launched an air-to-air missile. All anti-air missiles aim not at the cockpit (as JIT fraudulently reports about the BUK) but at the middle of the fuselage where they explode a few meters from the target. This jet fighter air-to-air missile, launched after taking down the pilots, finished MH17.

The DSB / JIT MH17 BUK theory is a complete lie, clearly politically motivated and quite easy to debunk.

The NATO and EU expansion hit a snag in 2014 when Donbass rose up against the coup installed government in Kiev. A false flag to blame the rebels was badly needed. How many innocents were to perish was nobody's concern when the attack on MH17 was planned.

Now it's all about the cover-up: JIT and their governments, Bellingcat, main stream media, all are tuned to hide the truth. Next to enter the game is the Dutch "judiciary", an incredibly corrupt structure, especially in the Netherlands.

Longfisher , 41 minutes ago link

And, they didn't allow the cabin crews' and pilots' bodies to be autopsied. Rats smell.

spoonful , 1 hour ago link

It was Kolomoyski who controlled the airspace where the plane was shot down by an SU-25 missile

https://uawire.org/oligarch-kolomoyskyi-returns-to-ukraine

CogitoMan , 1 hour ago link

Quote:

" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. "

Not true, I live in a country next to Russia and I don't believe that Russians did it. Mainly because at the time I have read what Russians have to say about it and looked at the presented evidence. Besides even some US based websites that are more independent confirmed most of what Russkies had to say.

So I exclude that Russians did have a hand in that tragedy.

But on another hand I accuse Russians to at least have a knowledge and some of their proven beyond doubt actions points to their guilt or co-guilt in downing Polish presidential plane at Smolensk few years ago. In that catastrophe entire Polish political elite perished and it is beyond doubt that it was either sabotage or plane was shot down as parts of the plane fell on the ground well before it hit anything on land. There were many people in Poland at that time that could do it and did have compelling motive to do it but actions of Russian ground crew at the airport are highly suspicious as well. At a minimum they knew and aided whoever was responsible for it and it definitely pilot mistake has to be excluded. Anyway Russians till today do not want to release wreck of the plane and people who ruled Poland at the time were close to Russian regime.

Beowulf55 , 1 hour ago link

What ever happened to the Spanish air controller who saw the intercept of a Ukrainian jet with MH 17?

HowdyDoody , 1 hour ago link

Last seen boarding a Boeing 737 Max.

Mister Ponzi , 2 hours ago link

Don't worry, Raul! From personal experience I can tell you that a lot of us living east of Russia's border don't believe the official story.

Bastiat , 1 hour ago link

...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have dishonored by their actions and lies.

foxenburg , 26 minutes ago link

I live in Spain...which is West of Russia's border...and I don't believe the official story either, lol.

CatInTheHat , 2 hours ago link

Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly one case where red/blue team were on the same team.

Just as it is today.

Bernard_2011 , 2 hours ago link

Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government. That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands.

"According to the interim financial report Hromadske TV was funded in 2013 by the Embassy of the Kingdom of The Netherlands (793,089 Ukrainian hryvnias , -₴-), the Embassy of the United States of America (399,650 ) and by George Soros International Renaissance Foundation (247,860)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hromadske.TV

So think about that when talking about the "neutrality" of The Netherlands in the MH17 investigation.

Helg Saracen , 2 hours ago link

Thanks for the links. The Netherlands have done a disservice to themselves - the Russians, although not vindictive, do not forget anything and especially do not forgive. On the part of the Dutch, it was extremely stupid. Well, it is clear they really wanted to return their gold reserves from the United States.

Truthistheagenda , 2 hours ago link

Imagine this all happened during a USA Presidency that had not even a schmidgen of Corruption.

gearjammers1 , 2 hours ago link

Israeli crash plane carried sarin chemical - Israel has a private airfield in the Netherlands - not subject to Dutch scrutiny - Jews OWN Netherlands - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/184288.stm - ancient 1998 BBC article - Israeli cargo plane crashes into Amsterdam neighborhood -

"The state-run Israeli airline, El Al, has confirmed that an El Al cargo plane which crashed into a block of flats in Amsterdam in 1992 was carrying a chemical used to produce the nerve gas sarin.... Up to 300 people are believed to be suffering from the effects Since the crash, six years ago, many residents near the site of the crash have complained of mysterious illnesses.

A report published on Wednesday by the Dutch health ministry showed that local doctors believed up to 300 residents could be suffering from effects caused by the accident. They range from depression and nervousness to fatigue and listlessness. Cargo was heading to Israeli plant"

gearjammers1 , 2 hours ago link

Bad blood between Israel and Malaysia: Israel shot down the Malaysian passenger jet and blamed Russia, another enemy of Israel.

Anti-Semitic Malaysian PM insists Jews are 'hook-nosed' to BBC - https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-semitic-malaysian-pm-insists-jews-are-hook-nosed-to-bbc/

MAHATHIR SAID 10 YEARS AGO: JEWS RULE THE WORLD - https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Mahathir-10-years-ago-Jews-rule-the-world-333254 "Mahathir was applauded by the attendants at the conference, including top leaders of all Muslim nations."

Brazen Heist II , 2 hours ago link

Even the Malaysians have come out and called this thing rigged. The West has its head buried up its own *** with short sighted Russophobia. Its sad to see the Dutch being the errand boys of the evil empire on this one.

How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles. The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident.

Show us the Ukrainian military radar data.

beemasters , 3 hours ago link

Malaysia should consider recalling all the evidence back and restarting the investigation by an undisclosed independent party. Without the truth, there will be no closure for the victims' families.

Know thyself , 3 hours ago link

I think Malaysia should start with the plane that went down in the Indian Ocean. They certainly have not come clean on that one.

beemasters , 2 hours ago link

These two events happened during the former prime minister's term. He was compromised because he used the western banking system for his corruption (1MDB scandal). By doing that, they owned him, and he couldn't do what's right for the nation/people.

Brazen Heist II , 2 hours ago link

Here's a thought: Russia doesn't behave like a ******* ****** hence not much to criticize. The ones making dumb mistakes get criticized and they happen to be running the West at the moment.

Evil Liberals , 2 hours ago link

Cuz Russia is not the country that meddles in most countries elections in the world - not Russia. What country has military bases in most countries of the world - not Russia. What country has been effecting Regime Change in many, many countries around the world for the last 50 years - not Russia. Kinda hard to write a lot about Russia when some other country is hogging the corruption.

Fed-up with being Sick and Tired , 3 hours ago link

" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. " Why not simply use this phrase: "Everyone has been convinced, through propaganda, that Russia did it."

williambanzai7 , 3 hours ago link

A stellar example of International Rule of Law in action. Something the Chinese will be all too happy to emulate. Everything is done to manipulate the dumb sheeple. Hypocrisy Unlimited

Anunnaki , 3 hours ago link

Amazing to see how undemocratic the West has become.

tschanakya , 3 hours ago link

Where are the instances that the west was democratic before?

bigkahuna , 4 hours ago link

Well surprise surprise!

Nassim , 4 hours ago link

John Helmer, the only independent Western journalist in Moscow, has always had the best write ups about MH-17 and the travesty of the truth that this fake investigation is all about. And the scam of an inquest in Victoria, Australia.

MH17 PROSECUTION -- THE DUTCH FIRE THEIR BIG GUNS, THE SUBJUNCTIVE AND CONDITIONAL TENSES, PLUS UKRAINIAN SECRET SERVICE TAPES

http://johnhelmer.net/mh17-prosecution-the-dutch-fire-their-big-guns-the-subjunctive-and-conditional-tenses-plus-ukrainian-secret-service-tapes/

Lumberjack , 4 hours ago link

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/amp/

Lumberjack , 4 hours ago link

A comparison of MH-17 and Putins Plane: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f9/d4/95/f9d495912838a94e128e96dac6354d76--boeing--gambar.jpg

Thom Paine , 4 hours ago link

MH17 shot down by the Ukraine, a major false flag. But it seems for neocons no amount of murder is too much for their false flags. It is a total ******* joke to think Russia in any way could benefit from shooting down a plane like that, for any reason.

oobilly , 4 hours ago link

2 things...

1. In 2001, one month after 9/11 Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner (Siberian airlines flight 1812) and admitted it. (operator error of the Buk system.)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html

2. 10% of Air defense crews could only pass operational exams 8yrs later.

"The ban was lifted in 2008, but so far only 10 percent of Air Defense Forces servicemen "have mastered the required level of theory and practice," the report said." https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/ppo.htm

Nassim , 4 hours ago link

The BUK missile system played no part in MH-17. No rocket trails. It was shot down by 1 or 2 fighter jets

[Jun 21, 2019] The investigation in the case of MH17. Where is the objectivity

Warning: a very raw translation from Russian. Original article is not linked, so it is difficult to correct.
Jun 21, 2019 | weaponews.com

What happened is by-and-large known now and the conclusions already were made: instead of the attempt to find the real culprits, West is engaged in politicized shamanism.This activily does not represnt any intetrrest to the Russian society. . The US, the Europeans, particularly the Netherlands, used MH17 story only as an excuse to once again poke a stick in the Russian bear. Nothing less, nothing more. Everybody understadn tht thre real court trial is hopeless as it is impossible to prove Russian guil based on availble evidence. But someone wants to continue this propaganda campaign, to chew the poisoness mushroom so to speak and produce new hallucinations. The last episode of this long-running "show" was so called "preliminary announcement of the findings of the investigation."

Allowing Ukrainian participation is like allowing a rabbit into the cabbage plantation Basically, for any normal person the question of who would be most likely to shoot down MH17, long gone: it is made of the inept Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners, who have at least one previous episode of shooting the passenger aircraft. Remember downed Tu-154 in 2001, when a series of downright stupid human errors lead to the rocket which failed to engage a low-flying targets captures and shooted down a distant and high flying airliner.

Nobody checked checked that recapured occured and as the result all passenger died.

and Ukraine persistently refused to admit guilt. But at this point there were no "Maidan Nazis" and other Post-maydan adventurists in power of the country. At this point it was relatively "pro-Russian" president Kuchma in power. So this behaviour characterizes very well the essence of Ukrainian "statehood": there can be no Pro-Russian government in Ukraine, only somewhat less anti-Russian. Otherwise, the existence of this state somewhat lose its meaning. In other words the purpose of "project Ukraine" is be ant anti-Russia dog barking at Russia's front door, and it is desirable that Russia is paid for the barking.

For a normal person the most plausible version of "who shot down the airliner" is evident and should be investigated to the fullest extent possible. Instead the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) in the Netherlands was selected to have people with different ideas. In general, this is a rather strange method of investigation to allow to participate in the investigation team the representatives of the country, which is one of the main suspects. And the country is in any case responsible for the accident that occurred over its territory. A country which failed to blocked international air corridors over the combat zone, where several planes and helicopters of the Ukranian armed forces was already actively shoot down And this country has been the fact that comes up with "evidence" so to deflect blame from themselves. Let, in General, the rabbit (or Ukraine) was allowed to guard the cabbage plantation.

Both Russia and Malaysia which could be countervailing force were excluded from the investigation, as it would make harder to blame Russia for the incident.

I created you from what was in hands at the moment The west so adamantly tried to create this political fake, that it was incapable to do quality job with it. And why? Because it is based mainly on "data networks", roughly and crudely "corrected" by Ukrainian "independent investigators". In the photo these investigators anyone can enjoy online and make conclusions for themselves -- to be Lombroso it is not necessary, there and so all is visible.

The information from another Western propaganda "investigative" outlet "Billingcat" have even lower level of "reliability" and "impartiality". And also "radio intercepts" and "wiretapping", were provided the same "genius intelligence" of the SBU. The real facts are simply swept aside.

Unconvient facts that does not suit selected narrative are simply ignored. and we are talking not about the fact that all the perpetrators are in the Donesk republic. Even if take as at face value and assime that JIT version is correct the figures should have some someconnection to anti-aircraft battries BUK and be trained to used them. But, it seems, JIT picked up and charged basically people names of which were somehow leked to the West and which are exposed in the Internet, in social networks and forums, such as the Arrows (Arrow, I. Girkin), Gloomy (S. Dubinsky) and GURZA, who is also the Caliph (A. Pulatov), or Bat (L. Kharchenko).

Well, those about whom the SBU bothered to created some fake "intercept conversations". Anyone who is more or less aware of the course of events spring-summer 2014 from the national republics, would be aware that these people are absolutely out of action in Dosetsk republic. But as an insurance JIT mentioned other people, like BES (Bezler) and others. The enrolled in this basically all Donetsk resistance commenders that existed at the time.

what is stragfe is that that fake interseption were only created up to the level of Surkov and Aksenov. Bu this logic it would be instumental to concoct conversations with Shoigu, Gerasimov and especially Putin. After all, every adept of svidomit faith believes in that in all the political troubles of the Ukrainians and their state's are the fault, of course, Putin. "Kremlin tyrant" constantly spoil the life of the Ukrainians, for example, he makes Ukranina politicain to speal bnational wealth and hide money in the Western banks, to devalue the national currentcy three times (300%) and to raise heating cost to the level whan the people can;'t aford them, follow the destrive recommendation of the IMF and even burn the light bulbs in the hallways.

And it is dangerous to question such a key symbol of Svidomit Faith. So it is very strange that tthey faied to cook a conversation about how Putin orders to shoot down MH17!

Investigators, blaming Russia, blaming Russian ait forces any conversantion now can be faked using "deep fake" technology so thier vialue noww is questibale at best.

If additionally you remove "conversations in social networks", the originals of which no longer exist (the service of "Vkontakte", for example, does not store logs of remote correspondence for more than six months), and which can be editedt JIT does ot have any real evidence.

and evidence like "the soldier talking 53-th separate anti-aircraft missile brigade with a girl" should probably be expcluded taking into account there the name of the gil is unknown and that that fact that converaion of genuane and not a fake is not given.

Trying to blame the Downing of MH17 equipment on the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from Kursk, they themselves have accused the Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners. They are absolutely correctly identified the type of the rocket which was used -- 9M38, which is obsolete and in Russia on arms did not appear even a few years before the war, but in Ukraine such missiles were not decomissioned.

Demonstrated JIT last spring, and fragments of the engine and nozzle 9M38 they identified with serial numbers and symbols of objects (also allowing to define the engine and the nozzle block, and the very missiles). Serial number in Russia was quickly determined the serial number of most missiles, and its tail number. Passport to the nozzle block 9Д131 05 000 No. 830113 and form of the rocket engine 9Д131 factory No. 8869032 it was established that the missile 9M38 were produced on 24 December 1986 and had a serial number 8868720. Because the account for the movement of manufactured military products military acceptance is reflected in the register of products that passed control of military acceptance, then you can set the date and address of delivery.

The 9M38 missile with factory No. 8868720 in the journal acceptance made under the serial number 74 and the missile was assigned side number 847379. In this case it is added to the conventional number of the plant-the manufacturer of the product and the year of issue, and in this form it is applied to the body site. That is, in this case, the room was 886847379.

In addition, the receiving magazine would be clarified and the contract number, 6ИТ-581, and where, under the order of GRAU USSR Ministry of defense were shipped products. Under the order No. 561/4/001029 of February 28, 1987, this Suhr with tail number 886847379, was sent to in/h 20152, that is to say the 223-th separate anti-aircraft missile brigade of the Transcarpathian MD of Terebovlya of Ternopil region of Ukraine. There were, of course, recorded information about the date of the acceptance of these products in the in/h 20152, 19 may 1987, and the date when the manufacturer received this official confirmation on 4 June of the same year. This 223 srbr, "privatized" a nezalezhnikami, in 2000, became a regiment with the same number. Now the regiment is stationed in Stryi in the Lviv region. The regiment participated in the fighting in the Donbass, and in 2014 too, which is very important, was in Donbass during the described period.

The Westen countries not not need the truth, what the need is the pretext for the santions

logically the data about the production of the rocket should be decisive (as well as the rest of the array of information provided by the Russian side), This is a solid evidence. which indirectly expose the guilt of the Ukrainians.

Moreover Ukraniians refuse to provide the data means of objective control with radar as air traffic control and the duty officers and military radar air defense RTV. Kiev refuses to provide information about the location of the SAM "Buk-M1" on the day of the disaster -- why would I, if the fault is not on them?

But Russia has its own data means of objective control (and in fact, given the concentration of large groups of troops, air defense on the border was strengthened and radar was working there a lot, and the aircraft a-50 will almost certainly at the moment is also patrolled "preconflict" zone on our side of the border.

Russia has not yet published this information, but it can declassify it. However, in the West again "not deemed compelling" given us information.

Assume that the intercept from the side of Russian electronic reconnaissance is also possible not to consider, although it Ukrainian Colonel Robert Grinchuk, who commanded the 164-th radio brigade air defense openly said that in the event of unresolved technical problems we "may down another Boeing." Theoretically it can be forged or you can declare it fake.

But the data about to whom the racket which shoot down Boeing belong it more difficult to forge.

Where is the logic? It is Necessary, however, to say that the "independent investigators" proded thier own version. Accring to which this rocket was shipped together to the "Buk-M1" to Georgia shortly before the five-day war (where Ukrainian officers serviced them), and then, they say, that rocket captured Russian.

And insidiously put obsolete and removed from service on the SAM missiles, sent to the Donbass. But why? Is it only for the sake of "not getting caught" on the use of inauthentic Ukraine weapons? Isn't it too difficult?

And why, given subsequent events in summer / autumn 2014? And indeed the "logic" Svidomits, claiming that "to shoot down the airliner" Russian needed "to officially send troops to the Donbas," is also flawed. None of this would not be necessary -- everything needed can be shipped. Without any formal invasion.

Yes, in Georgia Russian Army was captured many trophies. But there are serious doubts that someone would be put into service of outdated missiles from 9M38 "Buk-M1" with something as extended operating life. Not to mention the fact that the missiles are known as kept, it is impossible to exclude and a variety of microcracks as a result, for example, bumps or dropping missiles in the closure height, above the legal operating rules.

Besides, there was no need for them in Russia as Russia was the modernization program of SAM "Buk-M1" to "Buk-M1-2" with a replacement for 9M317 missile to 9M38M1. So there was no reason fro Russia to prolong the life of the missiles. A similar undercurrent of deceit is to put the warehouse dozens of unnecessary missiles to 7 years to shoot down one of them (completely out periods of storage and with unpredictable results) on the adjacent territory the passenger side. Such a version is more suitable to fiction. Trophy of the five-day war were often treated much more carelessly and brutally -- part of the captured tanks (from for sure are more valuable the Buk missle the reuse of the tanks is always possible to find), for example, were simply blew up.

The same fate befell a number of other trophies that Russian army was unable or unwilling to take.so much for the version of "the Georgian origin".

Not to mention the fact that even if we assume the participation of Russian SAM in events specifically mid-July 2014 on the territory of Donbass (it would be wrong to suggest), then the target identification from the SAM, based on the world's best air defense of Russia, there were no problems. And qualification of the SAM calculations in the armed forces was and remains high.

Ukrainians did not shot of the equipment entrusted to them -- and even now did not have shooting practice or have then below the norms. but we are talking about 2014 when the Ukrain arny was in complet disarray.

But does not concern someone in the West? No they preder to to shout about the lack of democracy in Russia. With no noticeable effects -- the pressure on Russia seriously useless.

And it is understood that the Netherlands will going to demand the extradition of the accused (knowing that the answer will be negative), so the prospects for "the court trial" which can determine the truth are zero, although in absentia they can condemn anyone, even Godzilla.

But it is possible "to urge Russia to help ensure that the accused appeared before the court" as did the state Department, or "to welcome the fact of placing the suspects" as delivered by a talking head of NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg

also nobody said it better about the JIT investigation then the Prime Minister of Malaysia Mahathir Mohammad.

"We are very unhappy. From the outset this investigation was politicized and was carried out in order to find ways to accuse Russia of illegal actions", -- said the Prime Minister. He added that investigators are still examining the case materials, said that Russia did.
"We need proof of Russian guilt in the incident. But so far there is no proof, only rumors. It's funny: someone you can't see, shoot, and you immediately declare that you know who was shot."
The purpose of the "investigation" is to hang the blame of three hundred corpses and a plane to some random individuals (transferring the guilt from a sick head to healthy as Russian saying goes).

[Jun 20, 2019] Self-righteous repetitions of the Big Lie substitute for the required "proof".

Jun 20, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

Ort , Jun 20, 2019 2:06:30 PM | 103

Good analysis, and thanks for including the drone-stalking cats photo. I only wish the neighborhood "house cats" here would prey upon drones instead of using my tiny back yard and its birdfeeders as their private hunting grounds.

One quibble, re: "But to blame Iran for it the U.S. will have to prove that its drone did not enter Iranian air space."

This ought to be the case, certainly. But the bogus charges filed yesterday by the corrupt and depraved Dutch authorities as part of the MH-17 downing cover-up is still another reminder that authoritarian despots blithely and bumptiously run on fumes.

No one wishes more fervently than I that the multifarious Western Hegemony Big Lies kept spinning in the air, as if juggled by a monstrous, malevolent Atlas, will ultimately be punctured by laser-beams of truth. In the meantime, increasingly self-righteous repetitions of the Big Lie will substitute for the required "proof".

[Jun 11, 2019] The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 Mahathir Opens a Ukraine Political Pandora's Box by F. William Engdahl

Notable quotes:
"... Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own misdeeds. ..."
"... By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe Biden and many others. ..."
"... Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later revealed to be quite alive . ..."
"... According to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016 informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar facility . ..."
"... Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned. According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never reappeared . ..."
"... Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden, despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the elected President Viktor Yanukovych. ..."
"... All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence, as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US elections. ..."
"... Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John Solomon. ..."
"... Increasingly it is looking like the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election, and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN. ..."
Jun 10, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own misdeeds.

During a dialogue with the Japanese Foreign Correspondent Club May 30, Mahathir challenged the Dutch government to provide evidence for their claim that the civilian Malaysian FH17 jet that crashed in Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made BUK missile fired from a Russian regiment based in Kursk. The Malaysian Prime Minister told the Japanese media,

"They are accusing Russia, but where is the evidence? We know the missile that brought down the plane is a Russian type missile, but it could also be made in Ukraine."

The blunt-spoken Mahathir added,

"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians; it could be by the rebels in Ukraine, it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile ."

He went on to demand that the Malaysian government be allowed to inspect the black box of the crashed plane, stating the obvious, that the plane belongs to Malaysia, with Malaysian pilot and there were Malaysians passengers:

"We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reasons, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened."

He went on to state,

"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it, and the idea was not to find out how this happened, but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians ."

The Malaysian Air MH17 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Only in May 2018 the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team issued its report alleging that a BUK missile was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, claiming that it originated from the 53rd Anti-aircraft Brigade of the Russian Federation, stationed in Kursk near the Ukraine border.

The Dutch Joint Investigation Team (JIT) declared that it "has come to the conclusion that the BUK-TELAR that shot down MH17 came from 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia," according to top Dutch investigator Wilbert Paulissen. Paulissen added, "We are convinced that our findings justify the conclusions "

The Dutch-led group presented no concrete forensic proof, and Moscow has repeatedly denied involvement in an act that would make no military or political sense for them. In 2018 the Russian Defense Ministry provided evidence that the BUK missile which had exploded to destroy the Malaysian passenger jet had been manufactured in a Russian plant in 1986, and then shipped to the Ukraine. Its last recorded location was at a Ukrainian military base.

By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe Biden and many others.

Open Questions

Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later revealed to be quite alive .

2014 Year Review: MH17 and the Civil War in Ukraine – An Airplane Tragedy with Political Implications

One of the central issues that the Dutch JIT group never addressed is why, at a time it was a known warzone, and commercial international flights were told to avoid the airspace in eastern Ukraine, the MH17 flight was reportedly ordered by Ukraine air traffic control authorities in Dnepropetrovsk to change course and to fly directly into the war zone. According to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016 informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar facility .

Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned. According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never reappeared .

The Kolomoisky Factor

Notably, at the time of the MH17 downing, the Ukrainian governor of the Dnepropetrovsk Oblast or region, was Igor Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky, who is listed as the third richest man in Ukraine with an empire in oil, coal, metals and banking, was also reported to be directly linked via offshore entities to control of Burisma, the shady Ukrainian gas company that named the son of then-Vice President Joe Biden to its board .

Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden, despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

Notably, the Mahathir remarks have drawn attention anew to the mysterious circumstances around the downing of Malaysian Air MH17 in 2014 and the potential role of Kolomoisky and others, in that. The role of corrupt Ukraine officials backed by the Obama Administration, is now under scrutiny.

Notably, the new President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, is widely reported to be a protégé of Igor Kolomoisky. Zelensky became a national name as a comedian on a Ukraine TV station owned by Kolomoisky, and the latter reportedly provided funds and personnel to run the comedian's victorious May 2019 election campaign in which he defeated incumbent Petro Poroshenko, a bitter foe of Kolomoisky. Following Zelensky's election victory, Kolomoisky returned to Ukraine after exile in Switzerland following a bitter falling out with Petr Poroshenko in 2015.

All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence, as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US elections.

Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John Solomon. Solomon cites FBI documents including State Department emails he has seen where Kilimnik is described as a "sensitive" intelligence source for the US State Department. The Mueller report left that embarrassing detail out for some reason. Kilimnik worked for Paul Manafort who before the 2014 Ukraine coup had served as a lobbyist for Ukrainian elected president Viktor Yanukovych and his Party of the Regions.

Their shadowy acts in Ukraine may soon come to haunt key figures in Ukraine such as Kolomoisky, as well as people like Joe Biden and family. From the true authorship of the downing of MH17, which Dutch and other investigators believe was linked to Kolomoisky actors, to the Ukraine business dealings of Hunter Biden to the true facts of the Mueller "Russiagate" probe, all could well prove to be a far more revealing investigation for the US Justice Department than the obviously biased Mueller probe has been.

Increasingly it is looking like the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election, and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine "New Eastern Outlook" where this article was originally published.

He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization.

[Jun 03, 2019] Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014

Notable quotes:
"... Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty " ..."
"... "Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border," ..."
"... "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools." ..."
"... had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat. ..."
"... "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia". ..."
"... "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces." ..."
"... "comprehensive" ..."
"... "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" ..."
Jun 03, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014?

span ted by wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 11:19am

Well of course it was the Evil Russians! Didn't Russians also shoot Roger Rabbit? We'd been discussing this 2014 interview with Tulsi Gabbard on my post ' analyses of the leaked 'Deal of the Century' I/P peace plan ' that I'd found that day and posted in comments, mainly wanting to feature her anti-Palestinian Hasbara. As I remember it, this 'blame' started the horrific sanctions on Russia.

☭ Nova🌱Shpakova ☭@NovaShpakova

Replying to @BrianBeckerDC

Tulsi says she doesn't want it, but her past record in #Obama/#Biden's Admin tells a different story. Let's rewind to the very words Tulsi said just a few yrs ago. #Tulsi betrays herself as a flatout #Zionist apologist & avid supporter of fascist #Ukraine. http://www.msnbc.com/taking-the-hill/watch/should-us-be-involved-in-ukraine-conflict--312796739629

10

Should US be involved in Ukraine conflict?

Foreign Affairs Committee member Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, D-Hawaii, joins to discuss hot spots around the world that are seeing conflict.

msnbc.com

19 people are talking about this

Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty "

TravelerXXX had bookmarked this Eric Zuesse exposé that I'd vaguely recalled and brought it in:

'MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven', December 31, 2018, strategic-culture.org

It's about nine yards long with zillions of hyperlinks, so long I don't even guess I'd ever finished it, which makes it hard to figure out what, if any, nuggets to feature, but he did link to this:

'MH-17: the untold story', 22 Oct, 2014, RT.com, including a 27-minute video documentary.

"Three months after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down over Ukraine, there are still no definitive answers about what caused the tragedy. Civil conflict in the area prevented international experts from conducting a full and thorough investigation. The wreckage should have been collected and scrupulously re-assembled to identify all the damage, but this standard investigative procedure was never carried out. Until that's done, evidence can only be gleaned from pictures of the debris, the flight recorders (black boxes) and eye-witnesses testimonies. This may be enough to help build a picture of what really happened to the aircraft, whether a rocket fired from the ground or a military jet fired on the doomed plane."

I'd later added to that thread, including some photos of a beaming Netanyahu holding a map of the Golan Heights that Herr Trump had signed with his approval (indicating the leaked plan just may be The Real Deal) when Up Jumped the Devil:

'Where is the evidence?' Malaysian PM says attempts to pin MH17 downing on Russia lack proof', 30 May, 2019, RT.com

"Malaysia has accepted the Dutch report that a 'Russian-made' missile shot down its civilian airliner MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, but has yet to see evidence it was fired by Russia, said Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.

"They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) in Tokyo on Thursday.

"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians," the prime minister went on, according to the Malaysian state news agency Bernama. "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile."

"Mahathir was skeptical that anyone involved with the Russian military could have launched the missile that struck the plane, however, arguing that it would have been clear to professionals that the target was a civilian airliner.

"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he said.

The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT), whose report last year blamed Moscow for shooting down MH17, barred Russia from participating in the investigation, but involved the government of Ukraine. Although Malaysia is also a member of JIT,Mahathir revealed that his country's officials have been blocked from examining the plane's flight recorders.

"For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said. "We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it."

"This is not a neutral kind of examination," Mahathir added.

Rejecting the JIT accusations, Russia made public the evidence the Dutch-led researchers refused to look into, including the serial number of the missile that allegedly struck MH17, showing that it was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986 and was in the arsenal of the Ukrainian army at the time of the tragedy."

b of Moon of Alabama offered this whopping 55 minute press conference video with Malaysian PM Mahathir on Twitter on May 31.

But aha! RT had later provided on the left sidebar:

May 24, 2018: 'No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims', RT.com

"The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit, urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images.

"Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border," the defense ministry said in statement.

The Russian military raised eyebrows over "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools."

The ministry pointed out that the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat.

The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia.

Investigators claim the missile system involved came from "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia". The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago.

The alarming part in the JIT probe is that "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces."

The Russian side said that it provided the international probe with "comprehensive"evidence, including field tests, which "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" in the destruction of the plane with 283 passengers and 15 crew members onboard."

This video that Eric Zuesse had up may be part of the referenced eye witness testimony.

... ... ...

(cross-posted from Café Babylon)

[Jun 03, 2019] MH17 attribution to Russia now looks like a classic false flag operation by Western intelligence services

Jun 03, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

I'd have to go with Zuesse's conclusion.

Have brought up Gabbard's sticking with the lies and false narratives regarding Russia and Ukraine, clearly one of her blind spots in her "antiwar" political campaign, that along with the massive and unrelenting war OF terror. That letter is a rather disgusting display of imperialist obfuscation by the duopoly political parties, fully supporting the lies about Maduro and what's happening in VS and in effect providing cover for future actions. You can't claim to be against military action while also lying about the reasons. Of course they can, that's how they prep the public for imperial advances. up 4 users have voted.


wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 4:10pm

i'm not positive that

@Big Al

i totally endorse zuesse's theory, but oh my, he'd brought in a lot of moving parts at the time. paranoid conspiracy theory or 'coincidence theory', as some brilliant mofo used to ask. (i'l think of his name later.) the russian defense ministry's contentions are in conflict with zuesse's (buk missiles v. another jet with missiles), but i sure as hell know that the dutch report decision in advance was bullshit. i'd think that one would have to be willfully blind to accept it at face value, esp. if any of them like gabbard were on the defense and intel committees at the time. same with madurro's venezuela, to pretend that it's not mainly the egregious sanctions and blockades that are responsible for the estimated 40,000 citizens who've died for lack of medicines and food. and now their CLAP food delivery system is under attack...again.

i get that the intel they're fed is rubbish, but they all have the duty to look further than what lies they're spoon fed. CEPR has been incredibly valuable a resource for one, and it's pretty mainstream.

but he's right about one thing: yanukovitch was overthrown due to his refusal to sign the EU association memo, and when Imperialists speak of how 'russia stole crimea', or refuse to see why the separatists in the donbass formed their own independent nation-states, it's utter hypocrisy.

thanks for reading and commenting, big al.

oh, and do you know if tulsi's FP is still at her house.gov site? i looked at all her press releases that were dated after that offensive letter, but i'd found nothing new.

Big Al on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 4:55pm
Ya, I never got into it much.

@wendy davis I mean, there's the establishment/government narrative and there's the truth, that's about all I need to know. It's like that saying "trust, but verify". I say fuck that, "don't trust, and verify that".
I don't know about Gabbard's FP, she's done some housecleaning and avoided certain things since becoming the CFR's choice for 2024. Again, I've already done enough research, what, for over 3 years now?, to see what she's all about, something I failed to do in 2007/8 regarding Obama. Lo and behold, all the clues were there just waiting to be uncovered, but I wasn't in the same place as now.

Pluto's Republic on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 10:43pm
I believe the answer was best documented

@wendy davis

...by the Russians, who were not allowed to participate in the Dutch investigation. The information and data was presented to the Dutch and to the Western media in September 2018. Everything one could hope to see in physical evidence is here. There is additional evidence not in this article that adds to the details and forensics presented here.

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/

This information was not published in the West or in the Vassal State of Netherlands. The US possesses satellite photos of the incident. But it has classified those photos and refuses to release them.

As for means, motive and opportunity:

• MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, not over Russia.
• It was shot down with a missile owned by Ukraine, not by Russia.
• It had propaganda value for Ukraine and its CIA masters, none for
• The missile was fired from territory controlled by the neo nazi Kiev regime.

But the best evidence of what took place, as far as I'm concerned, is right here:

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling in the rebel-held part of the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15 crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia was blamed by Western media in the first days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 8:57am
excellent,

@Pluto's Republic

and thank you. your memory is prodigious, and having the 2018 RT news is srsly helpful, as is your M,M, & O formula. blame first, then fail to allow russia (and malaysia) to be able to run investigations. good to know as well that the malaysian minister knew of the serial numbers and that ukraine owned the missiles.

eric zuesse had said that even dutch journalists were raising havoc with the JIT back in the day. but just think what this false blame resulting in mega-sanctions began, then onto the skripals, russia-gate in many guises, and tra la la.

mr. wd laughed this mornin' and said he wishes he had a choice to vote for sergei lavrov for prez; i second that!

dunno if the EU still wants a compact with ukraine, but NATO sure wants the neo-nazi nation as a member. ping: if i have the energy and time, i'll try to find in zuesse's tome admissions by snipers in 2014, as well.

Lookout on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 5:03pm
Tulsi's issue page....

...is here -
https://www.tulsigabbard.org/

Must admit I didn't hunt down her Ukraine position, but my personal take is Obummer and the CIA set out to foment problems and managed to get a fascists regime elected in order to oppose Russia. The new Ukrainian president may take things in a more pro-Russia direction?

wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 6:01pm
ach; not at her house.gov

@Lookout

site, at her election site. well, check out Russia , for now. and i do thank you; i was lookin' in all the wrong places. ; )i'll check out more soon as i have time, but zounds: russia: crimea, the nation's interference in our election, wooof. of course jill stein raised boatloads of bucks for recounts in three states on the basis of russian interference, later 'foreign interference' against the wishes of the green party board and her own running mate, so...there's that, but it was just a dodge against trump winning, not hillary. sorry, tulsi.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 9:09am
my apologies

@Lookout

for being in such a hurry i hadn't even registered your speculation about zelenskiy, but nah, he wants crimea and the donbass self-declared republics that Putin stole from him...back. he's being lauded and applauded for 'standing up to KGB Putin'. ; )

and the IMF's bailin' em out again so they have enough to pay their NATO dues and join the EU. (just saw that tryin' to remember how to sorta spell the comic's name.)

jim p on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 7:32pm
The pilot's body, iirc,

maybe it was passengers', was returned to Malaysia ... but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.

At the time an OSCE member was the first to arrive at the crash site. Some 20 minutes after the downing. The photos taken by him, or so it was attributed, showed round holes (not shrapnel) shot in the pilot area. Sorry I don't have any links handy on either of these, but I'm pretty sure this is correct.

wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 8:29pm
thank you;

@jim p

as i understand it, the hole size was not in contention. but weather it had been the pilot or a passenger: '...but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.'

is that perhaps a malaysian custom? is the truth out there somewhere?

jim p on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:17pm
The family was furious

@wendy davis and the government protested. The holes in the photo were in the cockpit and looked perfectly round.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:31pm
as pluto &

@jim p

eric zuesse remind us, the holes in the cockpit were likely from machine guns on the ukrainian fighter jet sent to make sure the ukie buk missiles had (omg) killed the plane, which if i'm getting it right (a big IF) was changing direction as it went down. my apologies for not getting all the moving parts and claims right on this thread.

but the 21st century wire shows charts and evidence that the flight crew was ordered to change course by the air traffic control tower (as per the later censored bbc plus recordings).

Pluto's Republic on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 11:20pm
Many believed that a Ukraine fighter jet

@jim p

...was involved in the downing of MH17, which was the opinion of many aviation experts and others, who found bullet holes in the cockpit, wings, and fuselage. This in addition to Buk damage.

Recordings were captured by multiple sources of a frightened and stressed Ukrainian pilot, who radioed, "I shot the wrong plane!" He sounded as if he was commanded to shoot down a military target plane and was misled into shooting a passenger jet. That pilot, named Voloshyn, later committed suicide.

The typical recollection of the incident is:

A fighter was also sent up to 'make sure' the target plane was shot down. If I remember rightly, the plane was hit, but was still flying and it began to turn back. If the plane story (which I tend to believe) is true, it's at that point that the fighter jet opened fire on the cockpit and wings.

That would also account for Buk damage to the Boeing, as well as fighter machine gun damage to the cockpit.

You can find many references to this incident along with transcripts of the conversation between the fighter pilot and the ground base.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 8:54am
that theory

@Pluto's Republic

certainly covers all the bases, doesn't it? good on ya, again, upside-down pluto.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:40pm
i never found zuesse's

video confessions from the snipers at maidan (i assume ukrainians firing on protestors in front of the trades union building that was eventually...burned to the ground.

but this?

"For instance, Moscow said a theory was never tested that the airliner could have been downed by a fighter jet spotted by Russian radar stations near flight MH17. The theory was later proven false by the discovery of debris from the Buk rocket.

Though Russia doesn't possess those black boxes ( which, by chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the Malaysian Government's representative, and yet that Government handed them to Netherland's Government instead of to Russia's -- apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals, evidence that's conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, regardless whether a Buk was involved or not."

one of his links went to ' MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag ' July 25, 2014 , 21stcenturywire.com

"As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-known dangerous area by now – one that's hosted a number of downed military craft over the previous 3 weeks. Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine, confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto.

Data on all airline flight records can be found here. The BBC reported on July 17th: " Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

a great (and lengthy) collaborative investigation by 21st century wire. thanks, obomba, thanks, tulsi, thanks Pierre and vickie nuland. and even the new guy can't control his neo-nazis. but then again, at least yulia tymoshenko didn't win.

but NATO will add them to the roster soon, which is one of the reasons that the atlantic council had recommended him: to root out poroshenko's oligarchs' corruption.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 5:20pm
no date given, but:
wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 5:13pm
i found it,

but i almost wish i hadn't it's sooooo long and full of twists and turns, news reports, videos, but in general the theme is that mikhail saakashvilli hired them, then stiffed them.

' The "Snipers' Massacre" in Kiev -- Another False Flag? ', January 13, 2015 , granvillepost.com, eric zuesse

you may remember him best john Mccains buddy: 'today we are all georgians'? like ahmed chalabi, he's the proverbial bad penny who keeps returning in whatever guise needed (after expulsions), and the big news this week is that zelenskiy's reinstated his ukrainian citizenship after promising to give up his former ambitions and work with the new prez.

good gawd all-friday.

[Jun 01, 2019] In -Jaw-Dropping- Speech Malaysian PM Says -No Evidence- Russia Shot Down MH17 -

Notable quotes:
"... In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems "to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" . ..."
"... The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile," he said. ..."
"... Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said . ..."
"... "We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians." ..."
"... Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down. ..."
"... Tell Malaysia they cannot access the black-box on their plane that was shot down, and they will tell you where to put your authoritative report. ..."
Jun 01, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems "to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" .

The Malaysian leader told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) in Tokyo on Thursday "They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir said his country accepted that a "Russian-made missile" shot down its civilian airliner, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew members on board, but that "You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians."

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad (left) shakes hands with Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in Tokyo on Friday. Image source: AFP

He ultimately questioned the objectivity of the investigators in what major regional media described as a "jaw dropping speech" .

Australia's prime state run news service ABC News noted the Malaysian PM's speech has sent shock waves through the region as it questioned everything Australia's own leaders have said. "From the very beginning we see too much politics in it," Mahathir said in reference to the official Dutch-led investigation.

A total of 38 Australians were killed in the Boeing-777 shoot down and crash, and the majority were Dutch nationals. The ABC report summarized of the "bombshell" charges leveled by PM Mahathir :

"Based on these findings, the only conclusion we can reasonably now draw is that Russia was directly involved in the downing of MH17," Australia's then-prime minister and foreign minister Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop said in a joint statement.

"The Russian Federation must be held to account for its conduct in the downing of MH17 over eastern Ukraine, which resulted in the tragic deaths of 298 passengers and crew, including 38 people who called Australia home."

But in a bombshell speech to the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (JFCC) on Thursday, Dr Mahathir was having none of it, accusing those who blamed Russia of scapegoating the nation for "political" reasons .

The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile," he said.

Interestingly, this has been Russia's position all along, which has already led some international media sources to suggest of the deeply contrarian Friday speech , "Dr Mahathir is known to enjoy a good conspiracy theory."

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014 – amid heavy fighting in Ukraine's civil war.

Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said .

"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians."

The Malaysian PM's headline grabbing comments were made in English in response to a reporter's question:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/veasiPEfjZ8?start=2430

He concluded that, "This is not a neutral kind of examination" -- again questioning the basis on which suspicions of pro-Kiev forces appeared to have been superficially ruled out from the start.

"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he added, according to Australia's ABC .

MH17 reconstruction, via Reuters

Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down.


Bernard_2011 , 19 minutes ago link

The consensus of the "international community" is that the Russians are responsible. Anything outside the consensus view is not permissible. That's how democracy works. And also how science works.

I would trust the Dutch investigators about as much as I trust the OPCW with regard to chemical weapons use.

NiggaPleeze , 24 minutes ago link

But but but ... Bellingpussy said it was Russians!

wadalt , 26 minutes ago link

"concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians"

Russia is an IMPEDIMENT to Apartheid Israhell's design for the region .

Without Russia, ASSAD would be long gone and IRAN would have been bombed to oblivion, and Greater Israhell would have been fulfilled and ruling over the MidEast.

In other words, pinning it on the Russians is simply PAYBACK .

MadelynMarie , 33 minutes ago link

https://www.corbettreport.com/dr-mahathir-mohamad-opens-the-911-revisited-conference-in-kuala-lumpur/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/malaysias-new-92-year-old-prime-minister-is-a-proud-anti-semite/

Mahathir Mohamad says 'Jews rule the world by proxy' and has called to 'strategize and then to counterattack'

Captain Nemo de Erehwon , 34 minutes ago link

Tell Malaysia they cannot access the black-box on their plane that was shot down, and they will tell you where to put your authoritative report.

fersur , 37 minutes ago link

Deep State had its hands all over that downed Aircraft, he who records History, creates History, for proof compare schoolbooks from any different generations !

Manthong , 42 minutes ago link

How about if an American Airliner is splashed by anybody, the Americans are not allowed to fully investigate?

What's the difference with this proposition and the reality of the Malaysian airliner incident?

One not need to be Sherlock Holmes to determine how much this whole thing stinks.

medved_ , 43 minutes ago link

Before MH-17 was diverted into the conflict zone, at least one military plane was downed there. By the very design it is difficult to prove

Dickweed Wang , 49 minutes ago link

It shows everyone just how fucked up the world has gotten when a foreign leader has the balls to speak some truth in public and what he said is instantly labeled "deeply contrarian".

Keep this in mind when you hear anything negative about Russia coming out of the UK or out of one of her spawn like Australia . . . Great Britain has had a total hard-on for Russia going back over 200 years and to this day will do anything in their power to **** Russia over any chance they get. It's primarily because of the actions of the UK that there's such an anti-Russian push in the US right now.

The shoot down of MH17 was just another attempt to stick it to the Russians and there's British finger prints all over that incident (for example, who still has the black boxes from that flight and won't let the Russians or anyone else see them, hmm?).

Minamoto , 1 hour ago link

The explosion of the battleship Maine in Havana harbour...

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident...

Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq...

The downing of MH-17...

Proliferation of false flags operations.

Mustahattu , 1 minute ago link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfoaLbbAix0

spoonful , 1 hour ago link

I said it back then (er helped say it) - listen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWlAARb0fN4 . Ukrainian Su-25's strafed the pilots with bullets - it was no BUK missile

Idaho potato head , 42 minutes ago link

Also @ 8:32 eyewitness states that a second plane was in the air, a military one. The rebels did not and do not possess aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g

Truthoutthere , 37 minutes ago link

Another false flag from the evil cabal of blackhatted ZioNazi scum.The world needs to be rid of this cancer...and to think that some of these Pentagram monsters are grandparents.

spoonful , 55 minutes ago link

israel began mowing the Gaza grass within a few hours of the MH17 shoot down on that infamous "7-17" day.

https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/KNOW-COMMENT-Mowing-the-grass-in-Gaza-and-beyond-363290

insanelysane , 1 hour ago link

Not to mention that the plane diverted from the usual route to fly over the hot zone with no explanation ever given.

Idaho potato head , 1 hour ago link

Diverted by Ukrainian air traffic control.

Mustahattu , 1 hour ago link

Maybe that's why the black box is kept away from Malaysia and Russia.

Idaho potato head , 1 hour ago link

The litany of 'highly likely' accusations were so pervasive they were blacking out the sun like a swarm of locusts. It's my hope that this is changing. More lies about Syria, Venuzuala, Iran etc. told to save the liars with new war worries. Would be nice to see normalcy come to the US, but maybe it must come completely apart first, I hope not. But the empire is not looking too good lately.

JoeBattista , 1 hour ago link

Props to the Malay guy. Fragments of the missile used in the attack were found, and the serial # recovered. The missile was made in Russia in the 80s, and shipped to Ukraine at that time. There is an entire hand written inventory(it can be seen at Veteranstoday.com ) from date of manufacture up to it's delivery to a missile battery in Ukraine. It remained there in the Ukraine until pieces of it were recovered at the crash site. Check it out.

CosineCosineCosine , 1 hour ago link

John Helmer did the best work on this risible frame-up. Multipe articles with superb investigative journalism

Book by Dutch investigator says it all really:

Extra:

[May 31, 2019] Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17

Highly recommended!
May 31, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

alaff , May 30, 2019 9:08:42 PM | 37

Interesting.

Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of being biased and not transparent. Video at 40:56.

Just a few excerpts:

We should be involved in examining the black box. We may not have the expertise, but we can buy expertise. But for some reason or other Malaysia was not allowed in to check on the black box to see what happened.

<...>

They are accusing Russians of firing the missile but what is the evidence? We need strong evidence to show that it was fired by the Russians, but it could have been the rebels in Ukraine, it could even be the Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile.

<...>

We don't know why we are excluded from the examination, but from the very beginning we see too much politics in it. The idea was not to find out how this happened and all that, but they seemed to be concentrated on trying to pin it on Russia . This is not a neutral kind of examination.

<...>

Here we have parties who have some political interest in the matter and they examine.

<...>

People from Russia - they are military people. Military people would know that it is a passenger plane. <...> I don't think [that] discipline, very highly discipline party would be responsible for launching the missile.

By the way, a year ago Malaysian Minister of Transport Anthony Loke spoke about this. The JIT obviously found this "not very important". Who would doubt. The task of covering up the Ukrainian regime that shot down the plane is still relevant. Just wondering how many more years they will play this farce with an "investigation".

John Smith , May 30, 2019 9:19:14 PM | 40

Posted by: alaff | May 30, 2019 9:08:42 PM | 39

Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of being biased and not transparent.
------------------------

MH17 - 5 years on:

"How BBC faked an MH17 story" now available on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZaloocFXs

Our official copyright dispute filed 30 days ago was not challenged. #MH17 #BBC

[Apr 29, 2019] 8 things we learned through Dutch report, BUK arms maker on MH17 crash in Ukraine -- RT World News

Notable quotes:
"... A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to the Boeing's left side, and not a single element would have hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, said the Almaz-Antey experts. ..."
Oct 13, 2015 | archive.is

Dutch investigators have published a much-awaited final report into the causes of the MH17 plane crash in eastern Ukraine, while Russian BUK producer Almaz-Antey has revealed the results of its experiments.

Here are eight crucial points from both reports. Follow Live Updates The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has been leading the investigation into the causes of the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. The crash killed nearly 300 passengers and crew members on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine. The DBS investigation is aimed at providing technical details about the crash, while another probe carried out by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is expected to determine who was responsible for the incident by the end of this year.

See the Facebook Help Center for more information. It looks like you may be having problems playing this video. If so, please try restarting your browser.

Close Dutch Safety Board simulates MH17 being hit by BUK missile

Posted by RT Play 68,055 Views Dutch Safety Board simulates MH17 being hit by BUK missile Posted by RT Play 68,055 Views app-facebook

1. BUK 9М38-series fired at plane The Boeing 777 flying over Ukraine was downed using a 9N314M-model warhead which was mounted on the 9M38-series of missiles, installed on the BUK surface-to-air missile system. The pre-formed fragments that hit the plane were solid, cube and bow-tie shaped, the report said. " The number of impacts, the distribution pattern and the shape of the high-energy objects that were found are consistent with the pre-shaped fragments in the war-head of the 9N314M model ," it said. © cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl 2.Missile exploded on the left side of the Boeing The in-flight disintegration of the plane occurred due to a detonation above the left hand side of the Boeing's cockpit, the Dutch investigators said. © cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl 3.Missile was fired from Ukrainian territory The investigators said the warhead was detonated from somewhere within a 320 sq. km area in the east of Ukraine. However, they could not establish which side of the conflict controlled the area at the site of the incident. © cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl 4. Ukraine failed to close its airspace The DBS bashed Ukrainian authorities for failing to recognize the increased risk to civil airplanes flying at cruising altitude and to close the airspace above the conflict zone. © cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl 5. Kiev admitted presence of weapons able to shoot down plane "The statements made by Ukrainian authorities on 14 and 17 July 2014, related to the military airplanes being shot down, mentioned the use of weapon systems that can reach the cruising altitude of civil airplanes. In the judgment of the DBS these statements provided sufficient reason for closing the airspace over the conflict zone as a precaution," the Dutch report said. BUK-2M missile system © Vadim Braydov © RIA Novosti Just hours ahead of the Dutch report, Russian BUK missile maker Almaz-Antey held a media conference presenting its findings relating to the MH17 crash.

Almaz-Antey conducted research which included two experiments simulating explosions, with the second one using a decommissioned Ilyushin Il‐86 aircraft, similar to a Boeing 777 in its aerodynamic, technical and physical attributes, as well as its fuselage design. The company's detailed technical presentation of the findings on Tuesday lasted for about three hours. Here are the three key conclusions they drew: 1.BUK 9М38 hit the plane The plane was hit by an earlier generation of the 9M38 Buk missile complete with warhead 9N314 ("without I-beams"), Almaz-Antey said in its presentation on Tuesday. According to the arms producer, the particles which hit the plane were cube-shaped, not bow-shaped. The last missile of this type was produced in the Soviet Union in 1986, and its life span is 25 years including all prolongations. All missiles of this type were decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011, it said. It looks like you may be having problems playing this video. If so, please try restarting your browser. Close MH17 crash test simulation Posted by RT Play 114,808 Views share MH17 crash test simulation Posted by RT Play 114,808 Views app-facebook Video Unavailable Sorry, this video could not be played. Learn More 2. Missile exploded on left side "The sub-munitions primarily damaged the left side of the MH17 Boeing, primarily its cockpit, left wing, left engine, and the left side of the tail, " the company said. 3. Missile fired from Kiev-controlled area? Based on the angle of the damage to MH17, the BUK producer established that the most probable location of the missile launch was the area to the south of the village of Zaroshchenskoe in the Donetsk region in eastern Ukraine. The arms producer refuted earlier claims that the missile had been launched from Snezhnoy, controlled by rebel forces and located near Torez – the MH17 crash site.

A missile launched from Snezhnoye could not have inflicted damage to the Boeing's left side, and not a single element would have hit the aircraft's left wing and engine, said the Almaz-Antey experts.

The Dutch Safety Board said on Tuesday that it would study the results of the two experiments presented by BUK manufacturer Almaz-Antey, adding that the MH17 investigation will not be completed in 2015. LI

[Apr 29, 2019] The Evidence In The MH17 Case Doesn't Point To Russia Or Ukraine by William Craddick

The intensity and sophistication of propaganda campaign, as well as the fact that it was started immediately raised really strong suspicions about possible western involvement. But if there is a Western trace then the missile should probably be fired for aircraft not from the ground.
Like in case with JFK everything became a mystery
Apr 29, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Via Disobedient Media

The MH17 case shocked the world as it happened and caused an escalation of the war in Ukraine. Although many accusations have been leveled over responsibility for the tragedy, the panel investigating the incident continues to search for the identities of the perpetrators. However, all focus has centered around the culprits being either Ukrainian or Russian, both of whom did not have incentive to further aggravate the Ukrainian conflict.

An examination of the facts, the connections of various state and non-state actors pushing disinformation about MH17 along with knowledge about historical intelligence playbooks and foreign mercenary involvement in Ukraine would in fact suggest that the party responsible for shooting the aircraft down may have been a team with ties to transatlantic American groups allied with certain Western European interests.

I. Investigation Results

In 2014, the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) published its initial findings as part of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seeking to determine who was at fault for the attack on MH17. These findings established that a BUK 9M38-series missile was fired at MH17 and that the missile was shot from somewhere inside east Ukraine in an area where control was contested by government and rebel forces. At the same time, BUK missile producer Almaz-Antey gave a press conference where they stated that based on the shape of the shrapnel particles which hit MH17, the missile prototype was last produced by the Soviet Union in 1986. Since the missiles have a life span of 25 years, they were decommissioned by the Russian Army in 2011.

In 2016, Stratfor released analysis of satellite imagery from DigitalGlobe that they claimed showed the missile launcher which fired the BUK at MH17. As Disobedient Media has previously reported, DigitalGlobe is an American vendor of satellite imagery founded by a scientist who worked on the US military's Star Wars ICBM defense program under President Ronald Reagan. DigitalGlobe began its existence in Oakland, CA and was seeded with money from Silicon Valley sources and corporations in North America, Europe and Japan. Headquartered in Westminster CO, DigitalGlobe works extensively with defense and intelligence programs . In 2016, it was revealed that DigitalGlobe was working with CIA chipmaker NVIDIA and Amazon Web Services to create an AI-run satellite surveillance network known as Spacenet . Their photos have repeatedly been used in propaganda attempts to undermine negotiations between North Korea and the United States.

In May 2018, the JIT gave an update on their investigation where they "presumed" that the BUK missile which was used against MH17 came from the Russian 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile brigade. This presumption appears to be a rehash of claims made by "independent" investigative organization Bellingcat in 2014. Nonetheless, investigators left open the possibility that the missile had been fired by another party .

In September 2018, the Russian military gave a press conference where they said the missile that shot down MH17 came from a Ukrainian army arsenal. This belief was based on a study of military archives after the JIT had made the serial number of the missile public. The JIT responded that they would need Russia to submit information supporting their claims, despite the fact that Dutch investigators could have also reached out to Ukrainian authorities in an attempt to verify whether or not the serial number was in fact from a missile part transferred during the Soviet era. II. Nation-State Narrative Pushing

In the aftermath of the JIT's 2018 update, the governments of the Netherlands and Australia issued a statement blaming Russia for the incident. They were supported by Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, who echoed a previous British intelligence report claiming without evidence that they also knew the Russian military "supplied and subsequently recovered" the missile launcher. This manner of nation-state propaganda has pervaded the investigation process since MH17 went down in 2014 and does not match the assertions of the JIT, who have consistently left open the possibility that a party other than Russia was responsible.

It is little surprise to see the Netherlands working in lockstep with the United Kingdom and Australia, who are both members of the UKUSA Agreement popularly known as Five Eyes (FVEY). The UK in particular has been shown to have been involved with operations alongside the Netherlands. Both the British and Dutch governments have been tied to Cheollima Civil Defense , who sought a coup in North Korea before they were targeted by American law enforcement . Integrity Initiative , an organization supported financially by UK intelligence and the Foreign Office, also maintained a Netherlands cluster . Members of this cluster include Yevhen Fedchenko , the Ukrainian co-founder and chief editor of stopfake.org and multiple members of The Hague Centre for Strategic Studies (HCSS), an "independent" think tank that works with the Dutch Ministries of Security and Justice, Foreign Affairs and Defense as well as NATO. British intelligence assets have also been exposed among the staff of the Voice of Europe , a right wing publication located in the Netherlands.

Interestingly, Malaysia , whose aircraft was shot down, has said that there is no conclusive evidence showing that Russia was responsible for downing MH17. The US State Department additionally declined to issue a statement they had prepared in 2018 criticizing Russia's alleged role in the event.

III. Intent

In criminal law, establishing intent to commit the crime in question is often an essential element to convicting a guilty party . In the case of MH17, neither Russia or Ukraine had an incentive to shoot down the airliner. The event dashed any immediate hopes of a " Novorussia " state or an early end to the Ukrainian war. It similarly created a disadvantage to Ukraine, who has lost thousands of their own citizens in the conflict due to its failure to conclude quickly. Neither country has a good cause to continue fighting for as long as they have. The MH17 tragedy ensured that both countries would remain mired in a struggle.

Both parties mutually denied involvement in the attack. Russia's kneejerk reaction was to incorrectly claim a Ukrainian jet was responsible, likely because of accusations that air-to-air missiles had brought down Ukrainian military aircraft in recent days. The Russian information warfare strategy did not take into account that Western media and certain Ukrainian officials were already blaming a BUK launcher as the cause for the attack. This kind of confusion and failure to prepare narratives is a sign that Russian officials did not anticipate the incident beforehand.

Europeans and American factions who support initiatives such as the European Union and NATO do have such a cause. Confrontation between Ukraine and Russia serves not only as a distraction to Russia, but pushes Ukraine into the arms of Western interests .

IV. British Intelligence Propaganda Efforts

The pervasive involvement of British intelligence propaganda operations surrounding the MH17 incident further indicates that European and allied American groups are using the incident to stoke the Ukrainian conflict. British website Bellingcat was founded after the downing of MH17 and immediately began to focus on providing "evidence" they hoped would be of value to investigators. It would appear that their efforts have been met with success after the JIT appeared to lend credence to some of their claims that the BUK missile used against MH17 came from the Russian military.

Leaks from 2018 have established, however, that Bellingcat is a propaganda operation with ties to organizations funded by British intelligence. Documents from the Integrity Initiative list both Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council, a think tank known for engaging in pay-to-play behavior with foreign donors, as "partner organizations."

Screenshot from a leaked Integrity Initiative document labeling Bellingcat as a "partner organization."

Bellingcat author Dan Kaszeta , who was involved with narrative formation surrounding the Skripal assassination attempt , was forced to issue an unconvincing denial that he worked for British intelligence after it emerged that he also wrote for Integrity Initiative. Integrity Initiative's now-censored website itself featured a page dedicated to combatting what they branded as "disinformation" surrounding MH17.

In addition to spreading propaganda in Europe, Bellingcat also runs operations targeting other locations as well. Canada-based Venezuelan anti-government blog In Venezuela is run by a Bellingcat member. The organization has also promoted Bana Alabed , a Syrian girl who supposedly worked with her English-speaking mother in Aleppo to send out perfectly worded tweets requesting NATO intervention in Syria during the siege of the city by government forces.

Bana Alabed promotes Bellingcat.

The pervasive involvement of the Integrity Initiative-connected Bellingcat in pushing pro-British propaganda into the MH17 investigation process provides a strong indication that official narratives about the tragedy are inaccurate.

V. Clues To Identity Of Perpetrators

If neither Ukrainian or Russian forces were responsible for the downing of MH17, who else could be?

Creating false attribution during military attacks is a very old tactic. The Gleiwitz incident at the start of Work War Two and the Gulf of Tonkin are two historical examples of occasions where false attribution occurred for political purposes. In the 1960's, the United States looked seriously at staging incidents of harassment or outright attacks against civilian airliners as part of Operation Northwoods . The attacks would be falsely attributed to the Cuban government by using procured MiG fighters or creating replicas that would fool observers. Internal documents from the CIA show a number of configurations that would withstand varying degrees of scrutiny were being considered.

Interestingly, the JIT used a US-made missile in tests meant to model the impact to MH17. BUK producer Almaz-Antey claimed that this meant the missile differed from their version in crucial features such as flight path.

There is also evidence that American mercenaries were on the ground in parts of eastern Ukraine that were held by rebel forces as fighting intensified in the months leading up to the MH17 crash. In March 2014, Bild am Sonntag cited German government sources who claimed that over 400 American mercenaries working for Academi affiliate Greystone were operating in Ukraine. The article was sparked by videos which had recently emerged online showing armed men said to be Americans on the streets on Donetsk, Ukraine. Academi issued a statement denying that any of their direct employees were in Ukraine but did not comment on the nature of their relationship to Greystone.

Video still shows soldiers said to be Americans on the ground in Donetsk, Ukraine in March 2014.

On May 4, 2014, Bild am Sonntag claimed that CIA and FBI agents were in Kiev to "advise" the Ukrainian government, citing unnamed German security sources. The next day, The Independent noted that locals in east Ukraine believed British or US forces might be active in the region after discovering items such as a British military jacket along with American rations and ammunition casings.

The evidence that Western mercenaries were present in Ukraine during the months leading up to the downing of MH17 should not be discounted and merits serious examination by investigators. Russian mercenaries have created headaches for their home nation in locations such as Syria due to potentially taking contracts for private clients while deployed in conflict zones. The involvement of Americans in Ukraine similarly raises questions about whether or not their services could have been exploited to aggravate an already contentious conflict that did not benefit either Ukraine or Russia.

Given the heavy involvement of British intelligence in narrative formation surrounding MH17 and clear attempts to induce the JIT to adopt the research of intelligence-connected investigative groups one must ask if the international panel investigating the case is missing the bigger picture by focusing on Ukraine and Russia alone. The evidence in fact points to a far different reality than the one presented by the international media. Will the JIT seek true justice? Or will they give the world easy and expected answers to their questions about MH17? Tags Politics

[Apr 12, 2019] Skripal, the Russkies and Bellingcat

The fact that Glenn Greenwald proved to be a despicable pressitute cast a long shadow of Snowden and Assange.
Notable quotes:
"... Not mentioned by any of the major news media is the fact that Bellingcat is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (sic), renowned for its interference in foreign elections, funding terrorists and overthrowing governments the US doesn't approve of. ..."
Sep 27, 2018 | investigatingimperialism.wordpress.com
September 27, 2018 September 27, 2018 27 September 2018 -- Investigating Imperialism

I smell a rat!

A quick comment about the two Russian alleged assassins, exposed, we are told by the 'investigative' Website, Bellingcat. Not mentioned by any of the major news media is the fact that Bellingcat is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (sic), renowned for its interference in foreign elections, funding terrorists and overthrowing governments the US doesn't approve of.

Media Lens picked up on this awhile back in reference to another Western financed outfit, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR), funded by the UK Foreign Office. I've also expanded this by quoting from Media Lens' other article that deals with Western-funded disinfo, ' Douma: Part 1 – Deception In Plain Sight':

Liberal corporate journalists and politicians have been impressed by the fact that SOHR and White Helmets claims have been supported by ostensibly forensic analysis supplied by the Bellingcat website, which publishes 'citizen journalist' investigations. As we noted in a recent alert, Bellingcat is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which is funded by the US government and is 'a notorious vehicle for US soft power'. – ' The Syrian Observatory – Funded By The Foreign Office ', Media Lens, June 4 2018

It's worth quoting more of the Media Lens article as it exposes the nature of Western so-called lefties and their attachment to Western (funded) propaganda outfits:

In the New Statesman, Paul Mason offered a typically nonsensical argument, linking to the anti-Assad website, Bellingcat:

'Despite the availability of public sources showing it is likely that a regime Mi-8 helicopter dropped a gas container onto a specific building, there are well-meaning people prepared to share the opinion that this was a "false flag", staged by jihadis, to pull the West into the war. The fact that so many people are prepared to clutch at false flag theories is, for Western democracies, a sign of how effective Vladimir Putin's global strategy has been.'

Thus, echoing Freedland's reference to 'denialists and conspiracists', sceptics can only be idiot victims of Putin's propaganda. US media analyst Adam Johnson of FAIR accurately described Mason's piece as a 'mess', adding :

'I love this thing where nominal leftists run the propaganda ball for bombing a country 99 yards then stop at the one yard and insist they don't support scoring goals, that they in fact oppose war.'

Surprisingly, the Bellingcat website, which publishes the findings of 'citizen journalist' investigations, appears to be taken seriously by some very high-profile progressives.

In the Independent, Green Party leader Caroline Lucas also mentioned the Syrian army 'Mi-8' helicopters. Why? Because she had read the same Bellingcat blog as Mason, to which she linked:

'From the evidence we've seen so far it appears that the latest chemical attack was likely by Mi-8 helicopters, probably from the forces of Syria's murderous President Assad.'

On Democracy Now!, journalist Glenn Greenwald said of Douma:

'I think that it's -- the evidence is quite overwhelming that the perpetrators of this chemical weapons attack, as well as previous ones, is the Assad government '

This was an astonishing comment. After receiving fierce challenges (not from us), Greenwald partially retracted, tweeting :

'It's live TV. Something [sic – sometimes] you say things less than ideally. I think the most likely perpetrator of this attack is Syrian Govt.'

We wrote to Greenwald asking what had persuaded him of Assad's 'likely' responsibility for Douma. (Twitter, April 10, direct message)

The first piece of evidence he sent us (April 12) was the Bellingcat blog mentioning Syrian government helicopters cited by Mason and Lucas. Greenwald also sent us a report from Reuters, as well as a piece from 2017, obviously prior to the alleged Douma event.

This was thin evidence indeed for the claim made. In our discussion with him, Greenwald then completely retracted his claim (Twitter, April 12, direct message) that there was evidence of Syrian government involvement in the alleged attack. [My emph. WB] – ' Douma: Part 1 – Deception In Plain Sight'

[Mar 04, 2019] Believe or not to believe -- this is the question

Mar 04, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Aule Valar March 1, 2019 at 11:34 pm

OPCW released it's report on Douma 2018: https://www.opcw.org/sites/default/files/documents/2019/03/s-1731-2019%28e%29.pdf

Tl;dr: two cylinders were likely dropped from up high and probably released chlorine which poisoned an unknown number of people.

Moscow Exile March 1, 2019 at 11:49 pm
Remarkably little damage suffered by such cylinders dropped from on high.

Likewise th Byk missile, which was also remarkably found near intact where the aeroplane it allegedly downed eventually crashed and broke up.

Mark Chapman March 2, 2019 at 9:40 am

"dropped from up high" – gosh, the technical terminology scientists use makes their reports difficult to follow. Naturally only Assad possessed the capability to drop something from up high, so it must have been him.

I also note the report says some guy who was not from the hospital ran in shouting "Chemical! Chemical!", whereupon others started grabbing people and washing them, and that the alleged victims did not present as victims of a chemical attack.

But I daresay the press will conclude this is irrefutable proof that a chemical attack occurred in Douma and that Assad – backed by the Russians – was responsible.

Patient Observer March 2, 2019 at 11:19 am
"dropped from up high" is in the 1 to 2 meter range, I would say.

[Jan 08, 2019] Zuesse Why One Should Distrust The News

Jan 08, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

... ... ...

Here's another example of the untrustworthiness of news-media and of other allegedly nonfiction presentations, even in many 'scientific' journals -- but this one will be an example from what has become overwhelmingly the world's leading encyclopedia: Wikipedia.

The CIA- edited and - written Wikipedia writes about the anti-CIA Michel Chossudovsky , by saying against his organization, the Centre for Research on Globalization, that it "promotes a variety of conspiracy theories and falsehoods.[7][19][8][20][21][22][23]." However (just to take one example there), the 22nd footnote "[22]" brings the reader to a lying 11 September 2013 article in the neoconservative The New Republic . This TNR article says against the progressive organization Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) that "The sources for VIPS' most sensational claims, it turns out, are Canadian eccentric Michel Chossudovsky's conspiracy site Global Research and far-right shock-jock Alex Jones's Infowars."

Wikipedia's linking to that lying TNR article is part of Wikipedia's 'proof' that both of those 'conspiracy' sites (the leftist Chossudovsky's and the rightist Jones's) are false (in other words: Wikipedia there is blatantly deceiving its readers, and is even assuming they're stupid enough to believe such a ridiculous thing as that and wouldn't even bother to check out Wikipedia's sources to find whether Wikipedia is the liar there, and not Chosudovsky's site that is the liar).

It's also assuming that the Obama regime was truthful when saying that Bashar al-Assad was behind the 21 August 2013 sarin gas attack in Ghouta Syria . However, that second assumption is likewise demonstrably false. The TNR's article and its allegation against Assad regarding Ghouta were, in fact, disproven, on 14 January 2014 , when leading US weapons-scientists Theodore Postol and Richard Lloyd studied closely all the evidence on that event and the US Government's evidence that Assad had been associated with causing it, and the Lloyd-Postol finding was unequivocal that "the US Government's Interpretation of the Technical Intelligence It Gathered Prior to and After the August 21 Attack CANNOT POSSIBLY BE CORRECT."

Furthermore, Obama actually knew that he was falsifying. Seymour Hersh's 17 April 2014 article in the London Review of Books , proved this. Obama was lying. Neither Lloyd-Postol nor Hersh is even referred to in today's Wikipedia's article . It still trusts Obama's and TNR's proven lie that Assad (instead of Obama's 'Syrian rebels' -- a.k.a.: jihadists ) had done that sarin attack. Wikipedia smears Chossudovsky with that proven lie, by simply reasserting the lie, and by assuming that Chossudovsky's site is less trustworthy than Wikipedia (which is yet another lie). But that's merely one of many lies that are in the Wikipedia article against Chossudovsky. No intelligent reader trusts Wikipedia -- or any source (except sources that the reader has repeatedly confirmed to be true and never to have asserted falsehoods -- unlike Wikipedia, which is full of distortions, cover-ups, and lies).

Intelligent skeptics dig down like this (which can be done only online, which is why print and broadcast 'news' is even less trustworthy than online news), and routinely find that there's a very selective use of 'evidence' that's behind most claims, and that the reality is that the 'news' is often false, and, worse than that, the 'news' is usually false for a purpose or purposes -- that the 'news' is often fraudulent, that it is propaganda , PR, often even of the lying sort, instead of being honest and carefully verified research and reporting, such as it claims to be.

Usually, it's false because the intention is to deceive, not because Wikipedia (or whatever other news-and-public-affairs medium one happens to be considering) merely goofed. As was noted here, Wikipedia is edited , and even written , by the CIA . (Remember what a "slam-dunk" about "Saddam's WMD" they delivered to the George W. Bush regime in 2002?) Only sources that are approved by the CIA are linked to there . Some of the sources are true, but many are not. The article on Chossudovsky was done for the CIA by an asset of the CIA, about a critic of the CIA. The CIA represents America's billionaires, and Chossudovsky doesn't.

Extremely wealthy people buy, advertise their corporations in, and/or donate to, public-affairs media, not in order to profit from them as owners of them, so much as in order to influence public affairs by means of them. This is one of the ways in which to grab hold not only of the government, but even of the people who vote for the government and who also buy those billionaires' corporations' products and services.

Trust should never be given; it should only be earned. Regarding what is public, trust is earned only rarely -- and is never earned when that trust is in the major 'news'-media (all of which are owned and controlled by billionaires and centi-millionaires who actually have interests in many corporations, including some they don't control but only serve or else invest in). The major 'news'-media don't always lie, but they often lie - especially about foreign affairs, which are the main focus and concern of international corporations.

For example: where do you ever see, in the major 'news'-media in The West, such high quality news-reporting as this, at the obscure news-site 21st Century Wire, from the great investigative journalist Vanessa Beeley ? What even comes close to such honesty, at CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, The Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, The Nation, Mother Jones, The Public Interest, National Review, Rolling Stone , Truthout, Truthdig, Alternet, Salon, etc.? Obviously, nothing, ever.

So: that's why one should always distrust the news. The system here is designed for deceit of the public.

Here are other recent articles from me, describing other instances of this phenomenon, the routine deceiving of the public:

"Chomsky's Unearned Prestige"

"MH17 TURNABOUT: Ukraine's Guilt Now PROVEN. Ukraine Downed MH17 Malaysian Airliner in 2014. Conclusive Evidence Suppressed by Western Media. Blatant Misrepresentations in Sanctions on Russia."

And here is something that brings together both Wikipedia and the MH17:

"Wikipedia As Propaganda Not History -- Mh17 As An Example"

[Jan 03, 2019] The Government of Ukraine was, supposedly, on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team

If the veto power is true, then the results should be greeted with nothing but cynicism and skepticism.
Jan 03, 2019 | www.unz.com

annamaria , says: January 2, 2019 at 1:37 pm GMT

@jilles dykstra The EU is a collection of US vassals, with all the immoral and bloody implications of this servility. https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-01/mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven
"MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven" by Eric Zuesse
Excerpts:

Russia's response provided, in excruciating detail, not only clear disproofs of the Netherlands-headed investigation's conclusions of Russian guilt, but also provided the still-unrefuted proofs of Ukraine's actual and incontestable guilt, in this mass-murder.

the Government of Ukraine was, on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team. Dutch government refuses to reveal 'secret deal' into MH17 crash probe .. the Holland's science-publishers Elsevier had filed for this information under that country's Freedom of Information Act, and the [Dutch] Government simply refused to comply with that law.

the Netherlands Government had partially funded the coup that in February 2014 overturned Ukraine's Government and installed the new regime, which regime is allied with the United States Government and actually perpetrated the MH17 shoot-down.

The US regime masterminded this mass-murder in order to win the EU's support for sanctions against Russia, and the EU knowingly complied The MH17 victims were merely "collateral damages" in the US regime's secret decades-long and ongoing anti-Russia war.

The BBC had previously posted to their website on 23 July 2014, just six days after the event itself, a news report in Russian via their Russian service (fortunately archived by Global Research), about the downing, but they quickly removed it without explanation.

annamaria , says: January 2, 2019 at 1:51 pm GMT
@annamaria

A proper comment on the MH17 "investigation" run by the corrupt/zionized Dutch government: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-01/mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven

It was already known that NATO and Europhiles from bruSSel has created and executed this plan to start a casus belli against Russia, all the steps that the European Neo-cons and Azkenazi's are making from: the association agreement with Ukrianians, the MarraKECH agreement with all the lies and spinning from Frans Timmermans, Dutch PM Mark Rutte and their Soros sponsord media: Dutch princess Mabel Bruinsma or better known Mabel van Oranje is working for Soros as Royal family member

No Yellow vests in the Netherlands!

A quite amazing bio of Mabel Bruinsma: "Bloody hands of the Dutch princes Mabel of Oranje-Nassau" https://sites.google.com/site/nocancerfoundation/princes-mabel-of-oranje-nassau

jilles dykstra , says: January 2, 2019 at 4:22 pm GMT

@annamaria

MH17, not impossible for me indeed that Rutte knew that the plane would be shot down. The day affter the disaster Dutch objections against sanctions to Russia were over, though at that moment knowledge of what had happened was nil.

The possibility of an accident, caused by Ukraine, cannot be ruled out, however. Ukrainian bombers seem to have used overflying passenger planes as shield against SAM missiles.

I suspect Israel of recently having used the same trick near Damascus, Israeli jets hiding behind commercial planes, possibly with the hope that Syria would shoot down one or two paassenger planes.

*But also here nothing new. British admiralty signals to the Lusitania are still secret, as far as I know. From what is known I get the impression that the British wanted the Lusitania torpedoed.

[Jan 03, 2019] MH17 Turnabout- Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven -

Jan 03, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by Eric Zuesse via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

Finally, a clear and convincing - and unrefuted - case can now be presented to the public, as to precisely whom the guilty party was, that downed the MH17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on 17 July 2014, and why it was done. The complete case, which will be fully documented here, displays unequivocally who needed the MH17 murders (of 298 persons ) to be perpetrated. This mass-murder was done for one leader's very pressing obsession. For him, it simply had to be done, and done at that precise time.

about:blank

The full MH17 case will be presented here, to be judged by the public, because no court of law which possesses the power to bring this (or even any) case on the MH17 murders, is willing to do so, and because the evidence in this 17 July 2014 case has become overwhelming, and is unrefuted. This evidence is accepted by both sides . But it still remains effectively hidden from the publics in the United States and its allied countries. (The present news-report, which is the first ever to present this entire case, is submitted to all news-media in English-speaking countries, so that any of them that wishes to provide its audience access to this uncontested and conclusive evidence in the MH17 case can do so, by publishing this article. Any of them that won't, don't want their audience to have access to the conclusive evidence in this case, because this article is being made available to all of them to publish, free of charge; so, there is no other reason not to publish it.)

me title=

The complete evidence will be described, and all of the conclusive evidence is linked-to, proving who perpetrated, and who demanded, the shoot-down on 17 July 2014 of the Malaysian airliner MH17.

This article will start by demonstrating the most important thing, and will demonstrate it by means of links to the most conclusive evidence of all . This is the evidence which absolutely proves that the official Netherlands-headed investigation into this matter is an intentional and utter fraud -- a fraud which has already been conclusively answered and exposed by the Russian Government. (Netherlands headed the investigation because 196 of the 298 murder-victims were Dutch.) Russia's response provided, in excruciating detail, not only clear disproofs of the Netherlands-headed investigation's conclusions of Russian guilt, but also (and on the basis of the very same evidence that the official investigation had made public on 24 May 2018) provided the still-unrefuted (but nonetheless still effectively hidden) proofs of Ukraine's actual and incontestable guilt, in this mass-murder. This evidence, of the Netherlands team's fraudulence, carries the investigation a large part of the way toward its ultimate conclusion, regarding whom the person was who had demanded Ukraine to commit this crime.

Incidentally, the Netherlands Government had partially funded the coup that in February 2014 overturned Ukraine's Government and installed the new regime, which regime is allied with the United States Government and actually perpetrated the MH17 shoot-down. The Government of Netherlands is not a neutral in this case that it is judging. It had helped install the present regime in Ukraine. In fact, as you can see here , Netherlands' Government had been the largest single contributor to Ukraine's Hromadske TV, which was propagandizing to exterminate the residents in Ukraine's former Donbass region, which breakaway region had voted over 90% for Ukraine's Democratically elected President, whom Obama's coup had just overthrown. This operation in Ukraine is an extension from the corrupt Nazi Prince Bernhard's having established in Netherlands in 1954 the secretive Bilderberg group to coordinate NATO's efforts for the US and its allies to conquer ultimately the world. He got caught in 1976, for one of his skimming operations, a million-dollar kickback from Lockheed Corporation . Holland's Deep State is anything but benign.

So, Russia's response, on 17 September 2018, used that Netherlands-headed team's own documentation, to disprove that team's attribution of guilt to Russia, and to prove conclusively Ukraine's guilt as having been the actual perpetrator of this mass-murder. Thus, the Netherlands-headed team includes the actual perpetrator, Ukraine, and not only the Netherlands Government, which had helped overthrow Ukraine's prior and democratically elected Government and bring Ukraine's current regime into power in February 2014, just months prior to the MH17 shoot-down, which resulted from that US coup .

Most readers who click onto the links here will be shocked. What will shock them is the evidence, because it has not been published in The West (except summarized in less than a half-dozen obscure news-media -- and, even there, generally not documented, such as it is here).

The links will document and fully prove this stunning turnabout, from Russia to Ukraine. The documentation that was cited by Ukraine and Ukraine's fellow team-member (the team's leader) Netherlands, against Russia, on May 24th of 2018, contained previously unrecognized details (which were first pointed out in the Russian presentation on September 17th of 2018) which irrefutably convict Ukraine. Consequently, Russia's response was ignored in The West, despite that presentation's having been based upon the very same items of evidence that had been introduced by the Netherlands-led team on May 24th. Thus, the items of evidence, there, are the same that the Netherlands-led team had themselves provided. The items of evidence here are not in dispute .

The current article will be the first-ever to hone-in on the especially shocking key data in Russia's data-packed September 17th response, the key evidence that Russia was calling attention to there, and which prove Ukraine's guilt beyond any reasonable doubt -- prove it on the basis of the very same evidence that had been introduced by Ukraine's own team in their presentation four months earlier. Using the other side's evidence to convict that other side is what makes this denouement the stunning turnabout that it is.

The Netherlands-headed Ukrainian team still refuses to answer the Russian presentation, which responds to the Ukrainian team's May 24th presentation. Western 'news'-media have likewise almost completely ignored Russia's response. ( One Dutch medium did report on it but dismissed it by focusing on a subordinate part: their report said and focused on "Russia now claims that the video images the investigators used to track the missile's transport to the Ukraine, were manipulated." However, the part of Russia's presentation that will be discussed in the present article was being entirely ignored in that Dutch news-report, which, as you will see here, has nothing to do with any claim of manipulated evidence. Britain's BBC likewise focused-in on the "manipulated evidence" that Russia's presentation had attacked. The Washington Post instead headlined "Who spread disinformation about the MH17 crash? We followed the Twitter trail" , and it focused-in on how polarized the public is over the MH17 case. The West's 'news'-coverage was virtually entirely misdirection and disinformation, as you will recognize from what follows here. And the evidence here is linked-to, so that you can see it for yourself.)

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me title=

Russia's response documented beyond any question, at all, that this airliner was shot down by the Ukrainian Government, and that Western (i.e., US-allied) 'news'media have been and are covering-up this crucial historical fact and The West's still-ongoing lies about the downing of MH17 .

Those lies are the basis of US and EU anti-Russia sanctions, which remain in effect despite the basis for those sanctions having been exposed unequivocally, on September 17th, to be based on lies. Thus, continuing to hide those lies is crucial to the liars. This is the reason why Russia's blazingly detailed presentation on September 17th has been virtually ignored -- to protect the actually guilty. The evidence here proves that those sanctions, themselves , are nothing but frauds against the public, and crimes against Russia -- ongoing additional crimes, which have been, and remain, effectively hidden till now.

The reader can see and consider here all of the conclusive evidence in the MH17 case -- it can be reached via the present article's links. Unlike the 'news'-reports in The West's 'news'-media, the presentation here is not presuming readers' trust , but is instead providing to all readers access to the actual evidence -- evidence that is accepted by both sides. That's what the links here are for: examination by any skeptics .

Skepticism in judging anything is not only good; it is essential to justice. Trust should never be given ; it should only be earned . Otherwise, no democracy can function. Only dictatorship can function in a country that's controlled by lies, and by liars. Liars are believed by people who have faith in them. Thus, faith in anything or anyone can poison judgment. The way to test the case that is presented here is to click onto a link wherever one wants to see and examine the evidence. Without examining (usually by spot-checking) the evidence, no reader can intelligently judge any case. Dictatorship is almost inevitable in a counry where spot-checking of the actual evidence isn't the norm . Most 'news'-media don't even enable such spot-checking. This is why 'news'-media are so often actually propaganda-media instead.

So, here's the complete MH17 case, for any reader to judge:

The last announcement from the official investigation, the Netherlands-headed "Joint Investigative Team" (JIT), was on 24 May 2018, and it headlined "Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster" . It said:

The JIT is convinced that the BUK-TELAR [missile and launcher] that was used to down MH17, originates from the 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile brigade (hereinafter 53rd brigade), a unit of the Russian army from Kursk in the Russian Federation. This fingerprint has been compared with numerous images of BUK-TELARS, both Ukrainian and Russian ones. The only BUK-TELAR on which this combination of characteristics also was found, is a BUK-TELAR that was recorded several times when it joined a convoy of the 53rd brigade on 23 – 25 June 2014.

Consequently, the JIT presumes that within the 53rd brigade and within the circle around it, people have knowledge about the operation in which that particular BUK-TELAR was deployed. Already in September 2016, the JIT disclosed that MH17 was downed with a BUK missile of the 9M38 series.

The missile engine's casing shows the number 9 д 1318869032.

Typical of Western 'news'-media's coverage of that presentation, was CNN's report the same day, May 24th of 2018. It was headlined "Missile that downed MH17 'owned by Russian brigade'" . It stated: "'At the time this area was under control of pro-Russian separatists,' said Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor of the National Prosecutor's Office of the Netherlands. The Buk launcher of the 9M38 series 'was transported from the territory of the Russian Federation and was returned to that territory of the Russian Federation afterwards'."

The Ukrainian side claimed they had finally found evidence which would enable them definitively to place the blame for the MH17 shoot-down on Russia. So, the very next day, May 25th, Britain's Telegraph bannered "Netherlands and Australia call for compensation for MH17 victims as they accuse Russia of downing plane" and reported that "Australia and the Netherlands have said they hold Russia legally responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 over Ukraine in 2014 and will seek reparations for relatives of the 298 people killed." This demand against Russia was coming "the day after the Dutch-led international investigation concluded that the Russian military had deployed the Buk surface-to-air missile that shot down the plane."

Four months later, on 17 September 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense youtubed its response, which is titled "Briefing on newly discovered evidence pertaining to the crash of the MH17 flight" . It presented the actual history of the Buk missile and launcher which Ukraine and the other Governments on the JIT said had brought down the MH17. (The JIT includes four countries, Netherlands, Ukraine, Belgium, and Australia, with a fifth, Malaysia, having been brought in only later, after it finally agreed to allow Ukraine a veto over any conclusions that the team will publish . Malaysia's participation started on 4 December 2014; but whether Malaysia has actually been allowed to play a role in the 'investigation' isn't clear .) Russia, during the intervening months after the JIT's May 24th presentation, had tracked down all of those serial numbers, 8868720 , and 1318869032 , and 9M38 , and found (as you can see there by clicking on each, especially onto the "Briefing" itself ) that after the acquisition of the launcher and missile, by Ukraine in 1986, from Russia, that missile and its launcher had always, and constantly since their transfer to Ukraine in 1986, remained in Ukraine, and never again were located in Russia. So: if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side.

--

With the passage now of years, the precise cause of the shooting-down of the Malaysian passenger plane MH17 on 17 July 2014 has been becoming clearer and clearer, despite the rigorous continuing attempts by Western 'news' media to cover it up and to hide from the public the growing and by-now irrefutable evidence (presented here) that clearly shows what and who actually brought down this airliner.

In the years since I headlined on August 24th of 2014 the news, "MH-17 'Investigation': Secret August 8th Agreement Seeps Out: Perpetrator of the Downing in Ukraine, of the Malaysian Airliner, Will Stay Hidden" , the key fact about the official 'investigation' has actually been that the Government of Ukraine was, on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team. On 20 November 2014, Russian Television headlined "Dutch government refuses to reveal 'secret deal' into MH17 crash probe" and reported that Holland's science-publishers Elsevier had filed for this information under that country's Freedom of Information Act, and the Government simply refused to comply with that law. The leaders of Western nations apparently want the black-box and much other basic data in their possession to remain hidden, and the four nations had signed this secret agreement to allow the Government of Ukraine to block any report that incriminates Ukraine in the MH17 shoot-down. But additional evidence has nonetheless become public, and all of it confirms and adds yet further details to the explanation that was first put forth by the retired German Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, whose independent investigation had concluded that Ukrainian Government fighter-jets intentionally shot down this civilian plane. He did not rule out the possibility that a Buk missile had simultaneously been used there, but he made clear that at least one fighter-jet had been used in this shoot-down.

However, if those parts of a Buk missile, which were the focus of the Netherlands team's presentation on May 24th, were indeed retrieved from the crash-site as that team claims, then a Buk missile had also hit the MH17. Serious question would nonetheless exist as to whether that Buk was fired by troops who were working for Ukraine, or instead for Russia (or else for Donbas separatists who were working in conjunction with Russia, which was Ukraine's and America's original version of the event ).

Precisely what the method was, by which the direct perpetrators brought down the MH17, has gradually become clearer, despite this continuation of Western secrecy (and Ukraine's veto-power over the 'findings') regarding the contents of the black boxes, and of the US satellite images, and of the Ukrainian air-traffic-control radar recordings, and of other evidence-sources that are still being held secret by The West and not made available to their 'news' media nor to anyone outside a tight official circle of those Western nations' intelligence agencies.

But now, Russia has actually -- on 17 September 2018 -- exposed the outright fraudulence of the JIT's 24 May 2018 presentation, and The West (the US Government's allies) entirely ignored the conclusive evidence that that presentation by the JIT itself actually contained and to which Russia was pointing, so that there can no longer be reasonable doubt about The West's intentional and still ongoing fraudulence regarding the entire MH17 matter.

Also entirely ignored in the Ukrainain team's 'explanation' of the event is why Ukraine's air-traffic control had guided the MH17's pilot to fly over the conflict-zone where Ukraine's civil war was being waged and where Ukraine's war-planes were bombing. The MH17's pilot was instructed by Ukraine's air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become normal during the civil war . This was highly abnormal, and it doomed the MH17. Clearly, only Ukraine's Government could, and did, do that -- change the route, and for only that one plane. Yet, still, the Netherlands-headed team blames Russia and is trusted in The West, but Russia is not. (Now, why would that be?)

Russia has constantly been releasing its own investigations regarding MH-17; and, in the process, Russia on September 17th not only provided further details as to how the downing actually happened (it wasn't by mistake, as the West contends it was), but they have also, in prior presentations, exposed the absurd impossibility of the Ukrainian Government's 'explanation' of this event (that only a Buk had been used), which is the 'explanation' that is still being parroted unquestioningly and unflinchingly by officials in Washington, Europe, and NATO, and also by Western 'news' media. (As my news-report on 24 August 2014 explained, that secret August 8th agreement was signed by the four governments which formed the JIT team and which had been handed by Malaysia the black boxes to study -- Ukraine, Belgium, Australia, and Netherlands -- and the JIT granted to the Ukrainian Government a veto over anything that the team's official report would say . This is probably the reason why the subsequent officially released report on those black boxes said essentially nothing. It was a brazen insult to the 298 victims' families. The presumption has been that all of them will have faith, not be skeptical, regarding the JIT team.)

Though Russia doesn't possess those black boxes (which, by chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the Malaysian Government's representative, and yet that Government handed them to Netherland's Government instead of to Russia's -- apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals, evidence that's conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, regardless whether a Buk was involved or not. Russian Television had issued in October 2014 a 25-minute documentary on the event, and it starts with people whom they interviewed in that region, who were describing their having seen at least one and perhaps two planes rising toward the airliner, and then the airliner coming down from the sky. Other witnesses told them that they saw an SU-25 fighter plane take off in that general area just minutes before the airliner came down.

FIRST, THE MISSING BBC REPORT:

The BBC had previously posted to their website on 23 July 2014, just six days after the event itself, a news report in Russian via their Russian service (fortunately archived by Global Research ), about the downing, but they quickly removed it without explanation. Fortunately, however, some Russian-speakers had managed to download it before it was yanked; and at least two of those downloads were posted to youtube, the first one having been posted there on 28 July 2014, with English subscripts, and with the headline, "UKRAINE Eyewitness Confirm Military Jet Flew Besides MH17 Airliner: BBC Censors Video 25Jul2014" . (It's gone now, but, actually, several witnesses, and not just one, were interviewed there -- there wasn't just one "Eyewitness".) Furthermore, Global Research posted on 10 September 2014 a transcript of it, headlining, "Deleted BBC Report. 'Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MHI7', Donetsk Eyewitnesses." (The video itself is still at youtube and it will be linked-to just below here, so that you will be able to view it.)

The interviews by the BBC were done by their reporter Olga Ivshina . (Also see http://archive.is/vFoh9 .) She had filmed local residents in the crash-debris area. In one passage of her 23 July 2014 news-report, there were two residents simultaneously who described what they had seen. One of them said, "And there was another aircraft." The other continued immediately, in order to describe the other plane, "a military one, beside it ['it' being the airliner]. Everybody saw it. It was proceeding underneath below the civilian one."

Here is the second, and clearer, version of that clip. (It's the one that's still live at youtube .) The key portion on it is at 0:38-042 in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/C812MrH6TK4

That was the 9 September 2014 repost of it, with the same subscript-translation into English, only the visual is sharper.

And here is an apology, dated 25 July 2014, by the BBC, for their having removed their original video of this interview -- and yet they still didn't repost it; they still continue to blockade it; even today the only versions available, of these, the earliest recorded interviews of people who said they witnessed the event, are the independently posted ones, but here is the BBC's apology:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/blogs/2014/07/140725_blog_editors_bbc_story_republished.shtml

Here, then, is that BBC apology google-translated into English: http://archive.is/kc291

So: clearly, BBC has done all that they could to remove evidence , which they had mistakenly broadcast, which had fit the retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, and which contradicted the US-Ukrainian reconstruction of it -- the reconstruction that Western 'news' media project, and on the basis of which US President Barack Obama won from the EU stiff increases in , and subsequent extensions of , the economic sanctions against Russia, all on the basis of lies.

(Subsequently, on 17 December 2018, South Front headlined "'EDITORIAL BOARD DEMANDS BLOOD': INSIDE LOOK AT HOW BBC TRIES TO FIND PROOF OF RUSSIAN INFLUENCE ON YELLOW VEST PROTESTS" , and they reported that Ivshina had texted to a BBC stringer, on the streets of Paris, instructions of what story-lines were wanted by BBC management regarding the "Yellow Vests" demonstrations against French President Emmanuel Macron, "Yes, I'm searching for the angles))) The editorial board wants blood, yo)))" . "And if you find these ultra-rightists [at the protests], will they talk about Putin and Moscow? Well, at least the Russians go to the protests, right?" Ivshina was instructing her French stringer what to look for, in order for her to be able to report the type of 'news' that her bosses wanted to publish . Perhaps Ivshina had been chastised in 2014 and had learned to never again be caught reporting anything that challenges the UK Government's anti-Russia propaganda-line.)

So, this valuable eyewitness-testimony to the MH17 event is available despite Western 'news' media (or, more-accurately, propaganda-media), and the reason for the news-suppression is clear to anyone who views that BBC 23 July 2014 report , which presents several eyewitnesses, interviewed separately as individuals, not as a group , and yet all of whose testimonies -- perhaps despite Ivshina's wish for them not to say this -- report having observed the very same basic narrative, of at least one military jet rising toward the airliner just before it came down.

In other words: it is clear that BBC had yanked this report because it didn't confirm the West's story-line, which says that Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists had fired a "Buk" ground-based missile at the airliner, thinking that the civilian plane was a Ukrainian Government war-plane about to bomb them and their families. But, first of all, the Ukrainian Government was virtually admitting there that they were bombing these villagers , which means that they were perpetrating an ethnic cleansing operation there, which indeed that Government was doing ; but, secondly, the Ukrainian Government's statement also acknowledged that if the event had happened in that way, it would have been unintentional, a tragic accident on the part of the rebels there. (The JIT's line now is that it was instead an outright Russian attack against the MH17.)

So, then, why did "the international community" respond with massive economic sanctions against Russia on account of this downing -- by, as it turns out, Ukraine? The whole Western propaganda position was designed for a public of sheer fools, if not of outright psychopathic ones, who cared not a bit about the plights of the victims of an ethnic-cleansing campaign . They cared only about victims in "The West." The West's basic story-line doesn't make sense without recognizing that we were financing ethnic cleansing to clear the land in southeastern Ukraine, and that any support that Russia would be providing to those separatists would have been defensive in nature, not offensive. Yet Russia gets the blame when this passenger jet goes down? Even though Ukraine's air-traffic control had guided the pilot there? In any case, that story-line of Russian guilt is false, from start to finish. And now (at least after 17 September 2018) it is finished. But Western 'news'-media still continue to broadcast the lies, as if it weren't.

Here is how outright ludicrous it actually is, and sound reason in itself that anyone in the military had to have known, from the very get-go, that the "Buk" 'explanation' was a line of pure malarkey:

THE RUSSIAN DOCUMENTARY:

The 22 October 2014 Russian documentary was titled, "MH-17: The Untold Story," and it presents, among much else, videos of several "Buk" missiles being fired on other occasions, just to show how utterly ludicrous the initial Ukraine-US-and-allied 'explanation of the MH17 event was. On 5 November 2014 , I summarized that, with screen-shots from the Russian documentary.

So, when even the BBC's reporter wasn't able to find anyone in that entire region who recounts having seen anything of the sort, just how likely would the Ukrainian Government's line on that matter -- that not only was this done by a lone Buk but it was fired by (at first) pro-Russian separatists, and (then) by the Russian army -- actually be? Obviously, any person with any military knowledge whatsoever had to have recognized virtually immediately that the Ukrainian Government's story-line on the MH-17 downing was a pile of sheer malarkey, but did anyone in the Western 'news' media report that it was -- that the Western line there was not just a lie, but an absurd one, one that requires an ignorant public in order for it to be able to be taken seriously at all by the public? One that requires an ignorant public, to remain ignorant? This is supposed to be the Western 'news' media, with a free press, and a democracy, a truthfully informed citizenry, who can vote based upon truths, not on mere lies?

Here is the way that the Russian TV documentary opens:

https://www.rt.com/shows/documentary/197540-mh-17-crash-ukraine/video/100000000000006000608456

Several of the locals there told Russian TV's reporter that they had seen a military jet rise toward the airliner; and not a one of these individuals were any of the same ones who had testified the exact same thing to the BBC's reporter, whose news-piece had been squelched by her managers.

HERE IS HOW MH17 WAS SHOT DOWN:

Now, to the substance of the explanation of how this plane was actually brought down:

Earlier, I had summarized the evidence for Peter Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, but I questioned his having accepted the eyewitness testimony to the effect that the planes that shot down the airliner were SU-25s. In Haisenko's Russian TV interview, he stuck by his belief that it was probably SU-25s instead of SU-27s or Mig 29s, both of which are also in the Ukrainian Air Force, and all three of which use 30-millimeter machine-guns or "cannons." But since the fact is that all three of those attack-plane models use machine-guns ("cannons") with 30-caliber bullets (which is the size that clearly was used, especially on the cockpit), the effect would be identically-sized round 30-caliber entry-holes, no matter what. My last major report on that evidence, prior to the 8 August 2014 formation of the JIT and their mutual agreement to report nothing that would be incriminating to Ukraine's Government regarding the MH17 incident, was "Systematically Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian Airliner: The Guilt Is Clear and Damning." That basically fills in (and the links, in that report, document with pictures and videos that) the actual way that this plane was downed, and that why it was downed was "to get the EU to go along with stiffened sanctions against Russia". Obama (via the regime that he had installed in a February 2014 coup in Kiev ) succeeded there in getting the international sanctions against Russia that he had been wanting. Obama, and certainly not Putin -- and now we know it wasn't Russia at all (not even if a Buk was involved) -- was the key person behind this. The 298 MH17 murder-victims on 17 July 2014 were murdered by Barack Obama (via his agents such as Victoria Nuland -- she ran Obama's Ukrainian operation ), just as clearly as (if not even more clearly than) Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman al-Saud (via his agents at the Sauds' Istanbul Consulate) murdered Jamal Khashoggi on 2 October 2018.

International actions (such as economic sanctions) are based upon such fabrications, and 'evidence' taken out of its full context, as this from the far-right Forbes commentator Paul Roderick Gregory , but there are no such fakes , nor out-of-context items of evidence, in the case that has been presented here. That's the difference between news-reporting versus propaganda; but, in the United States today, propaganda passes as if it were 'news,' and authentic news that doesn't fit the regime's cooked-up narrative is suppressed entirely. The scandal isn't just Obama, and it's not just Ukraine; it is also the propaganda-organs, and even (though to the least extent) their audiences who subscribe to such lying 'news'-media.

Western governments, and their 'news' media, are treating their citizens, their own publics, not really as citizens, but as suckers. They are treating them as subjects, instead of as citizens. This is not authentic democracy. It is neo-feudal; it is, in fact, fascism.

The entire "Buk" 'explanation' of the downing of the Malaysian airliner (the idea that only a Buk missile caused the physical wreckage which was found) is for suckers only; and everyone in official circles, and in the press, who peddles it, is just as fake as the ridiculous story-line that he or she is peddling. To fall for it, after being provided all of the authentic evidence, which has been linked-to here, one would have to be a willing slave to psychopaths . In this case, the psychopath was Obama, who not only had perpetrated a bloody coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Ukraine in February 2014 but who also was now struggling, and had a very pressing obsession, to get the EU to accept his sanctions against Russia for its having accepted the pleas of Crimeans (who had voted 75% for that President) to become restored again to Russia. The 14 July 2014 mass-murder that was set up to be blamed against Russia was Obama's trick that enabled him to win his way on this.

CONCLUSIONS:

By no means do we know every detail about how the MH17 was shot down, but what we do now know for certain is that the narrative for that event which was supplied by Ukraine's team on May 24th -- the official account of how it happened -- isn't just false; it is outright fraudulent. Ukraine's team supplied evidence which, if it is authentic, actually convicts Ukraine. And Western 'news'-media hide this crucial fact.

So, now, we know why Western governments have hidden, instead of making available to the public, the black-box data and the other evidence that they still refuse to provide to the public. They are aiming to scam the public, not to inform it. Lying is their game. They might call it 'patriotism.' Traitors would likely do that. Traitors to any country could do it. And, so, they do. Their believers constitute their political base.

Unfortunately, anyone they fool becomes their tool, and everyone else is purely their victim -- helpless to oust (much less, to replace) the tyrants who make things bad for everyone but themselves and their colleagues, the insiders at the very top.

Just the day before the MH17 shoot-down, Bloomberg News had headlined, on 16 July 2014, "EU Readies Russia Sanctions Amid US Pressure on Ukraine" , and reported that "the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stance against Moscow." The day before that, on July 15th, Bloomberg's headline had been "EU Leaders Weigh Sanctions Against Russia Over Ukraine" , and that report opened, "European Union leaders meeting in Brussels will consider expanded sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine conflict, as the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stand against Moscow." Was the July 17th event only coincidentally timed perfectly in order to achieve what Obama was determined to produce: the first Ukraine-based anti-Russia sanctions? The regime that Obama had installed in Ukraine in February 2014 needed not only his support, but also the support of the IMF (in order to obtain loans), and of the EU (which it was seeking to join). There was probably even more pressure placed upon the leaders in Ukraine than there was upon the leaders in the EU. But there was plenty upon them both. The EU was widely reported to be balking at increasing the sanctions against Russia. Obama needed the EU to approve quickly his increased sanctions, so as to keep the momentum going for his entire anti-Russian campaign, which had been the reason behind his February 2014 coup in Ukraine . Something dramatic now was needed, in order for Obama to win the EU's full cooperation. After all, Obama had secretly started at least by 2011 his operation to take over Ukraine . This operation was, for him, one of the central objectives of his entire two-term Presidency. Ukraine -- and Ukraine alone -- now had within its power the capacity to deliver to him the EU's participation. Ukraine delivered it, precisely when it was the most urgently needed. This was essential in order for Ukraine to be able to enter the EU. And entering the EU would be essential in order for Ukraine to be able to enter NATO -- the next key step in the Bilderbergers' plan.

Continuing the sanctions is easier than originally imposing them was. On 22 December 2018, UAwire headlined "EU extends economic sanctions against Russia" , and reported that on December 14th, the EU's sanctions against Russia , which are based upon alleged Russian aggressions in or against Ukraine, are being extended: UAwire noted "These measures were initially introduced on July 31, 2014 for one year in response to Russia's actions to destabilize the situation in Ukraine, and then strengthened in September 2014." The EU supports, and participates in, the US regime's lies and sanctions against Russia. These crimes and lies started as Obama's, but continued under his successor Trump, and have been also the EU's crimes throughout , by the EU's joining, instead of condemning, not only those sanctions but also the lies upon which those sanctions are based . The EU thus indirectly shares the US Government's guilt in the mass-murders that occurred on 17 July 2014.

Perhaps the survivors' families and Malaysia Airlines (which is owned by the Malaysian Government), and their Governments, will file both civil and criminal charges now initially against Ukraine and its President Petro Poroshenko, and ultimately against Victoria Nuland, Barack Obama, and the United States, but also against the Dutch Government, for its collusion with the United States Government in its fraudulent 'investigation' that had pre-established blame against Russia . (However, the secret agreement that Malaysia signed to join the JIT might prohibit Malaysia from joining such suits.) Netherlands pre-established Russian blame especially by means of its 8 August 2014 secret four-party agreement (joined later by Malaysia's Government) to allow Ukraine, an actual suspect in this case, to hold veto power over the assignment of blame in this entire matter. However, not only the survivors of the 298 victims should be suing, but all of the victims should be represented in this case. There were also many violations of international laws. Obama's coup against Ukraine was one such. The MH17 shoot-down resulted from that coup , couldn't have occurred without it, and was an extension from it. That coup is thus an important part of the MH17 case.

On 20 September 2017, the now 5 countries in the JIT signed a joint "Memorandum of Understanding" saying "Arrangements for signatories and other grieving nations to make financial contributions to the national proceedings in the Netherlands will be laid down in a financial memorandum of understanding," and that "This Memorandum will remain in effect for five years and will be automatically extended for successive five-year periods." So, they intend to continue their 'investigation' into MH17 until they can present to the world evidence that Russia did it. Perhaps before that happens, however, all of the victims and their children will already have passed away and this fraud and farce will finally end, as secretly as it began, and only few people will even care, anymore, about it.

Or will victims and their families, instead, initiate whatever legal proceedings they can, right now , against all members of the JIT, for their cover-up, and against the ringleaders, in the US, who demanded this mass-murder to be done, and against the perpetrators in Ukraine, who actually ordered and did it?

Maybe they'll even be able to get Barack Obama to return to the Nobel committee their 2009 Peace Prize.

The US regime masterminded this mass-murder in order to win the EU's support for sanctions against Russia , and the EU knowingly complied , and continues to comply, with the American regime's ongoing aggressions and lies against Russia. The 298 MH17 murder-victims are thus not only the US regime's victims, but vicariously victims also of the EU -- and not, at all , of Russia. Russia was instead the real intended target of the possible Ukrainian Buk missile, and of the Ukrainian fighter-jets, that brought down the MH17. The MH17 victims were merely "collateral damages" in the US regime's secret decades-long and ongoing anti-Russia war . This is how today's America competes in the world, by playing very dirty, and getting away with it, helped by its allies, which endorse, and join in, the US regime's atrocities .

Now, which major news-media in The West will report these solidly documented facts? Isn't it time, finally, that they should start doing that? Or, do they have no honor, at all?


raybies , 4 hours ago

Over here in the west we only believe what the zionists say.

laser , 10 hours ago

https://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

__name___3O4jF"> NuYawkFrankie

10 hours ago (Edited)

Who Planned & Then Gave Porki the Go-Ahead to Shoot Down MH17 ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZOG USSA <<<<<<<<<<<<< play_arrow 3 play_arrow iPragmatist , 1 hour ago

Here's how those bastards stole the funding from the US taxpayers behind the scenes for obama's 'coup' and then the very anti-Russian propaganda we have been seeing since.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/three-members-of-congress-just-reignited-the-cold-war-while-no-one-was-looking/

JOE BUDTZ , 11 hours ago

Sorry, but although I support the view that Ukraine was responsible for the MH-17 crash, I find this article confusing, repetitive, and, in general, poorly written.

The critical facts available concerning MH-17 have all long been available from several sources. This article really adds nothing.

https://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/5th-episode-mh-17-inquiry-it-was-mig-video/ri16248

https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-suppressed-evidence-machine-gun-like-holes-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-not-brought-down-by-a-buk-missile/5648099

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76PG9RQStFU#t=470

spoonful , 14 hours ago

The article neglects to identify who or what really shot down MH17. Further, the article neglects to mention the elephant that is always present when one of these mass murders occurs - Israel. It was mere moments after MH17 that Israel started to mow the Gaza lawn. See https://www.vox.com/2018/11/14/18092434/israel-gaza-war-2014-rocket-raid-netanyahu-hamas

ExpatNL , 14 hours ago

This man was behind shooting down MH17. Igor Kolomoisky; born February 13, 1963) is a Ukrainian-Cypriot-Israeli business oligarch of Jewish descent and the former Governor of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.[10]

A multibillionaire, Kolomoyskyi is rated as the second or third richest person in Ukraine (after Rinat Akhmetov and/or Viktor Pinchuk) since 2006.[11][12] and 377th richest person in the world by the Forbes (as of 2011).[9] In March 2015 The Economist listed his net worth as $1.36 billion.[13] Kolomoyskyi is the leading partner of the Privat Group and a de facto chairman of the FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.[14]

Kolomoyskyi is the co-founder of the PrivatBank (and its informal Privat Group, respectively) and was appointed Chairman of its Board of Directors in 1997.[5][14] Other fields of activity include: ferroalloys, finance, oil products, mass media,[15] metal and petroleum industries (also in Russia and Romania).[16]

Kolomoysky has a triple Ukrainian-Israeli-Cyprus citizenship because dual citizenship is not recognized by Ukraine.[17][18] Kolomoyskyi explained that: "The constitution prohibits double citizenship but triple citizenship is not forbidden."[19]

Part of his vast business empire is Burisma Holdings Ldt, Ukraine's largest private gas firm. Shortly after Russia annexed Crimea, while U. S. Vice-President Joe Biden was engaged in diplomatic talks with Ukraine, Burisma announced that Hunter Biden joined the board of the company.[22]

In April 2014 Kolomoyskyi offered a bounty for the capture of Russian-backed militants and incentives for the turning in of weapons.[35] He also is believed to have spent $10 million to create the Dnipro Battalion,[34][36] and also funds the Aidar, Azov, Dnepr 1, Dnepr 2, and Donbas volunteer battalions.[37]

Russia is asking for Kolomoyskyi to be put on Interpol's wanted list.[38] On 2 July 2014 a Russian District Court authorized his arrest in absentia for "organizing the killing of civilians".[39]

..together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, [he] founded the European Jewish Union.[47]

giovanni_f , 15 hours ago

In a completely unbiased 'investigation', one out of two suspects not only made it to the investigators' panel but even had the right to veto anything from being published what the investigators would find. It was determined that the other suspect was guilty.

In the new normal of the 2000s this is not a joke but reality.

cwsuisse , 16 hours ago

This is an interesting article. Although quiet lengthy. I think it is possible for every interested party to conclude whether the russian or the ukrainian side is guilty of the flight MH-17 crime using exclusively publicly available clues and information provided by exactly the parties alleging the guilt of Russia:

  1. The ukrainian authorities failed to close the ukrainian airspace to civil aircraft although serveral military aircraft were shot down by rocket launchers over the eastern Ukraine in the 48 hours preceding the incident.
  2. No information has been published, why flight MH-17 has been instructed or permitted to deviate from ist preset flight path.
  3. The voice recordings of Kiev Tower were confiscated immediately after the incident.
  4. A parliamentary enquiry by the leftist party in Germany as to why the voice recordings were not published received the hilarious response that the publication of the voice recordings is not in the national interest.

Reasonable arguments why the Russian side would have benefited from the crime are not available. On the other hand with hindsight it is absolutely clear that the crime has substantially supported the case of the Ukraine.

Consequently it is obvious that the majority of the responsibility for the crime rests on the shoulders of the Ukraine, irrespective whether the plane has been shot down by the ukrainian or russian servicemen. Clearly the countries of the European Union have colluded in covering up the role of the Ukraine in this crime, obviously to assure the continued support of their citizens for the future integration of the Ukraine into the European Union. And the media did participate in the collusion. From my point of view it is pretty obvious that the Dutch investigation has been infiltrated by the services.

ExpatNL , 16 hours ago

The USA govt returned Dutch gold that was housed in the USA.

To keep Dutch shut up about the coverup.

Superlat , 12 hours ago

The Ukrainians either shot it down with a BUK missile system, completely consistent with the damage found, and other evidence, OR the Ukrainians set it up to look like a military aircraft to be shot down by the Russians (no evidence this happened).

The USA is a dirty-dealer. I wish the world had the guts to discipline us but they don't.

Fireman , 16 hours ago

So the anglozionazi empire of **** and their lying pedovore cheeseheads in Bangladesh of the North aka Holland are murderous thugs? Gee what a surprise.

Maidan snipers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV5LiSEDZCk

A Dutch bankster who knows all about the cheesehead pedovores spills the beans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3BDYpkDbo

Josef Stalin , 16 hours ago

everybody here in Russia knows it was the americans, british and dutch who facilitated and funded Ukraine's shooting down of MH17....... however, this is probably the worst written account I have ever had the misfortune to struggle through ...... meandering and constant repetition makes for painful reading ..... the author needs to return to journalism school, even with the caveat that most journalism standards today are rock bottom.

resistedliving , 14 hours ago

everyone in America, UK and Holland know we killed the:

Skripals

Litvinenko

Markov

Perepilichny

Moskalenko

Politkovskaya

and the list of attempted poisonings too numerous to cite

oh, and Seth Rich just for the conspiracy theorists.

Black Dog 32 , 14 hours ago

I didn't get through the article, but I believe the author is pointing at the serial number on the missile casing being made in Russia (Soviet Union), but owned by Ukraine. That plus the veto power over investigation results for Ukraine.

If the veto power is true, then the results should be greeted with nothing but cynicism and skepticism.

JailBanksters , 17 hours ago

The most obvious thing is, there were two suspects, Russia and the Ukraine.

One of those suspects had complete Kontrol over deciding what was evidence and what wasn't evidence, and the other was not allowed any where near the investigation or even to review the evidence.

How Efing obvious does it have to be, by exclusion they actually implicated themselves.

It's about as crazy as Clinton deciding which emails to delete and which to show the FBI to prove she had not breached protocol.

Perhaps if OJ had been a Juror on that day, he might not of gone to Jail !!

And it's just like 911, where the central suspects were leading the Investigation.

Nassim , 17 hours ago

The whole thing is so obviously made in the USA.

A few months after this crime and mass murder, I met a young Dutch woman in a big shopping centre in Melbourne. I told her the obvious and she turned so nasty towards me! It was inconceivable to her that the Dutch government should lie about the murder of so many Dutch citizens. She was convinced it could only be the "Russians". I wonder if she will ever learn the truth.

For a good summary of the dishonesty of the coroner in Victoria, Australia - 26 Australians who were killed - I recommend this website:

MH17 CORONER CONTRADICTS HIMSELF, IGNORES AUSTRALIAN FORENSIC EVIDENCE, RULES IN FAVOUR OF DUTCH SAFETY BOARD

http://johnhelmer.net/mh17-coroner-contradicts-himself-ignores-australian-forensic-evidence-rules-in-favour-of-dutch-safety-board-2/

ExpatNL , 17 hours ago

I live in NL and get much the same response from people. The first LIE always sticks with people. and the planners of these attacks know that,.

The Dutch Safety Board used to have an open comment and report link on their site.

I have been BANNED from commenting.

Renegade0031 , 19 hours ago

Het was allang bekend dat NATO+BruSSel dit hadden bedacht, Oekraine inlegvel, het pact van MarraKECH, de leugens van Frans Timmermans, Mark Rutte en de Nederlandse SOROS media ( Hij richtte zijn Open Society Foundation op, een stichting die onder meer opkomt voor democratie, liberale waarden, minderheden en onafhankelijke media (prinses Mabel, de weduwe van prins Friso, werkt hier al jaren). bron AD.nl

It was already knwon that NATO and Europhiles from bruSSel has created and excecuted this plan to start an casus belli against Russia, all the steps that the European Neo-cons and Azkenazi's are making from: the associatie agreement with Ukrianians, the Marra KECH agreement with all the lies and spinning from Frans Timmermans, Dutch PM Mark Rutte and their Soros sponsord media: Dutch prinses Mabel Bruinsma or better known Mabel van Oranje is working for Soros as Royal familly member...

No Yellow vests in the Netherlands!

blueseas , 19 hours ago

The black box fell into rebel hands so presumably the Russians had it. We're the Russians just plain stupid and gave it to the dutch?

ExpatNL , 19 hours ago

Lets discuss the ATC tapes that disappeared along with the Spanish Air Traffic controller who was on duty that day,

Conscious Reviver , 19 hours ago

More on Spanish Air Controller @ Kiev Borispol Airport: Ukraine Military Shot Down Boeing MH#17

From Global Research

https://www.globalresearch.ca/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/5391888

Someone Else , 17 hours ago

If this Spanish Air Traffic Controller story is right it implicate Julia Timishenko, who was a rival to sitting President Poroshenko. Guess who is currently leading in Ukrainian polls? Julia Timishenko is leading with Poroshenko is second place.

giovanni_f , 19 hours ago

" We're the Russians just plain stupid and gave it to the dutch? "

No, if they hadn't, the so-called West would have blamed Russia with "tampering". This way it becomes at last clear that the so-called West has no interest in finding out the truth. there is no media in the so-called West allowed to even consider an alternative explanation. An IRS visit on the next occasion would be granted.

blueseas , 19 hours ago

Come on now. The Russians had to have known that they'd be blamed anyway. Turning the black box over just doesn't make sense.

Volkodav , 18 hours ago

Russia has evidence, facts from first.

Quiet document this and other crimes

best waited Kiev and friends fall on own knife

Nassim , 17 hours ago

The so-called "rebels" naively gave the black box to the Malaysians. The Malaysians handed them over to the Dutch - without taking a backup. Don't forget that the Malaysians were incredibly corrupt at that time. Their new government is taking Goldman Sachs to court to get back some of the money they stole.

Someone Else , 17 hours ago

The rebels recovered the black boxes, but there was no way they were going to hand them over to Ukrainian authorities. Instead they held them and eventually they handed them over to the Malaysians to insure that the Ukrainians did not tamper with them. But the rebels did not realize that this conspiracy was far bigger than just the corrupt government of Ukraine itself. The Malaysians promptly handed the black boxes right back to the Dutch. Through US pressure the Malaysians were complicit.

green dragon , 19 hours ago

The Ukraine coup was never about helping the Ukrainian people. It was about causing economic harm to Russia!
It has been five years since the coup and much of the major economic cooperation between Russia and Ukraine is gone.
The Sanctions have impacted Russia's economy and Ukraine is now a economic mess. Ukraine is being saddled for loan after loan that future generations will have to pay back. Many of the key resources Ukraine has are in the process of being asset stripped if they have not already been. Corruption is now rampant. Arms are funneled through Ukraine to middle east.

ludwigvmises , 19 hours ago

What about the photoshopped image of a Ukrainian fighter bomber that supposedly shot down MH17. This "image" appeared on Russian state TV a couple days after the event. Was that also credible and irrefutable?

Renegade0031 , 19 hours ago

illustration?

because tactitcal radar images wont be very helpfull for the audiance due the fact they dont understand what they see...unless you are a female underwear seller who never has been close to a gun but is a weapon and ballistic expert like Eliot Ward Higgins..

AUD , 20 hours ago

Ukraine shot down an airliner travelling from Tel Aviv to Moscow back in 2000 or thereabouts. Ukranian air defence units were carrying out drills at the time & stupidly launched a missile in the vicinity of this commercial airliner.

What's so hard about the idea that the same thing happened again?

donkey_shot , 19 hours ago

MH17 was steered onto a route over Ukraine not used by commercial airliners ever , before or after. This fact precludes any possibility of your "mistaken, stupid" scenario having occurred. Furthermore, there are clearly holes in MH17`s fuselage caused by machine gun fire. It was physically impossible for Ukrainian air defense units to employ such ground fire: Clearly, MH17 was at the very least partially brought down by a direct air-to-air attack: What makes that difficult to understand?

AUD , 18 hours ago

********.

Fuck you Tyler , 10 hours ago

No possible way machine gun fire applied after the crash ?

ExpatNL , 20 hours ago

The photos showing cannon fire holes under the pilots side cockpit window say ''NO BUK Missile''

those photos disappeared quickly

donkey_shot , 18 hours ago

The cannon fire holes do not say "no Buk missile". As the article states, it could very well be that both an air-to-air attack, as well as a Buk (diversionary) attack took place.

ExpatNL , 20 hours ago

One of the names behind the attack was

John Brennan

ExpatNL , 20 hours ago

What happened to the ATC tapes and the Spanish air traffic controller?

These questions refused to be answered by DSB and the Dutch govt.

giovanni_f , 20 hours ago

you don't ask a question when you won't like the answer.

battered , 20 hours ago

So I am confused which of the stories to 'believe'

was it a blunder that had to be covered up

or

a deliberate false flag

very different

ExpatNL , 20 hours ago

IMHO it was a false flag attack.

I kept on top of this from the gitgo

There was an email sent to the US Army attache in Kiev and it was posted online back in 2014.

It disappeared very quickly.

It basically encouraged some kind of ''incident' to sway public opinion to the side of Kiev.

rtb61 , 20 hours ago

The Ukraine did it on there own, the US led the coverup but they were not pleased with the event because lots of Western Europeans and Australians were murdered by the Ukrainian government, who were that stupid, they thought only Asians would be on board.

However that does not excuse the US's guilt in covering it up and not prosecuting the criminals, they betrayed all the Australian on that flight and that can never be forgiven.

battered , 20 hours ago

To both:

If as you say, then would be a crime against humanity (another one)

to prosecute, would need true investigative journalism and not this ridiculous word mess

fulliautomatix , 17 hours ago

I'd read it.

logang , 20 hours ago

The photographs of the left wing show parallel incisions pointing at the cockpit. These incisions could only have been caused by an air to air missile, not a Buk. It's as simple as that. The Dutch threw a handful of Buk shrapnel into the wreckage in order to falsify the evidence. Evidence suggests that Assistant US Army attache Jason Gresh (***) initiated the MH17 atrocity with an e-mail to oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky (***), who organised the shooting down of MH17. Kolomoisky actually apologized for the shooting down of MH17, sayding that is was a 'trifle'. It's on Youtube.

TitusTheGreat , 17 hours ago

All very true, unfortunately political reality has nothing to do with fact.

bluez , 20 hours ago

I saw this before in various places. The "western" media are now all totally corrupt. I didn't remember seeing the part about the Ukraine veto agreement. That turned the whole "investigation" into a farce.

It's all lies now. In fact they have been making stuff up since forever. When I was in school they told me it was important to "read the papers." I'm sure they believed it. This rabbit hole goes down to the core of the earth.

It's the wool that's been pulled over your eyes to blind you, Neo.

Volkodav , 20 hours ago

Ukraine AF Pilot Vladyslav Voloshyn suspect of shootdown was removed active duty,

given very high level civil position as director airport Mykolaiv.

Much was noticed his talkings, mood, personality stressed

Death by suicide Tokarev.

Very many internet BBC, many media have their version,

but close people Mykolaiv tell local story is different.

Ukraine SBU Officer of Cyber Lt. Col. Roman Labusov, born in Donetsk, defected with files

certain of incriminate Kiev, internal memos of measures to cover guilt for MH17.

This is non find west main media. This I found English:

https://southfront.org/high-ranking-security-service-officer-of-ukraine-defected-to-donetsk-peoples-republic/

Count Cherep , 3 minutes ago

Germane to the issue:

Thursday, July 17, 2014

False Flag Over Ukraine and Israel's Ground Invasion of Gaza

Shot down or blown up with a bomb or whatever, the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has all the fingerprints of a false flag. Maybe a multifaceted one including a diversion from Israel's ground invasion into Gaza.

We may get distracted but we're not being fooled. Very little the controlled media will tell us about the downed flight will be even close to the truth but they are working overtime to convince us.

Continues:

http://kennysideshow.blogspot.com/2014/07/false-flag-over-ukraine-and-israels.html

My comments on the article under the screen name No More Myths begin here:

No More Myths July 17, 2014 at 8:31 PM

Judge for yourself the authenticity of the following. The translation from Spanish to English is mine:

✈ Carlos.
@spainbuca

PARA VER HAY QUE MIRAR. ✈desde una posición privilegiada, ATC (Air Traffic Control) Borispol, Міжнародний аеропорт Бориспіль ( ae.infcarlos@yahoo.com.ua )
Kiev. Ukraine
Joined August 2010
-----
TO SEE YOU HAVE TO LOOK. ✈from a privileged position, ATC (Air Traffic Control) Borispol

[Tweets starting at 8:17 AM - 17 Jul 2014]

Malaysian passenger plane with 280 passengers and 15 crew members crashed in Ukraine, near Russian border

Autoridades de kiev, intentan hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians

Cuidado! Kiev tiene lo que buscaba
---
Be careful! Kiev has what it was looking for

Vuelven a tomar la torre de control en kiev
-----
They've returned to take the kiev control tower

Kiev, tiene lo que buscaba, lo dije en los primeros tw, kiev es responsable @ActualidadRT
-----
Kiev, has what it was looking for, I said so in the first tweets, kiev is responsible

Nos van a quitar, nuestros tlf y demás de un momento a otro
-----
They're going to take our phones and other things at any moment

Antes de que me quiten el tlf o me rompan la cabeza, derribado por kiev
-----
Before they take my phone or break my head, it was downed by kiev

Que hace personal extranjero con autoridades de kiev en la torre? Recopilando toda la información
-----
What are foreigners and kiev authorities doing in the tower? Gathering all the information

El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
-----
The B 777 plane flew escorted by 2 ukrainian fighter jets until minutes before disappearing from radar

Sí las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca minutos antes , no lo derribo un caza
-----
If the kiev authorities want to tell the truth, it is known that 2 fighter planes flew very close minutes before, but the plane wasn't downed by one of them.

Nada más desaparecer el avión B 777 de Malaysia Airlines la autoridad militar de kiev nos informo del derribo, como lo sabían?
-----
As soon as the B 777 Malaysia Airlines plane disappeared the kiev military authorities informed us that it had been shot down, how did they know?

https://twitter.com/spainbuca

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The tweet {"Sí las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca minutos antes , no lo derribo un caza"
-----
If the kiev authorities want to tell the truth, it is known that 2 fighter planes flew very close minutes before, but the plane wasn't downed by one of them.} is a little confusing, perhaps due to the stressful situation, or a typo. In context with spainbuca's other tweets, perhaps the word "no" in the phrase "no lo derribo un caza" was extraneous, or perhaps lacked a coma afterwards -- "no, lo derribo un caza" regarding his previous tweet "Autoridades de kiev, intentan hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians"

In any case, despite the circumstances, he laid it out quite clearly:

Autoridades de kiev, intentan hacer que pueda parecer un ataque de los pro-rusos
-----
Kiev authorities intend to make it look like an attack by the pro-russians

Cuidado! Kiev tiene lo que buscaba
---
Be careful! Kiev has what it was looking for

TeraByte , 18 hours ago

Me too I asked myself the very question "qui bono" all over again? Was it of Russian rebels´interests to shoot down on purpose MH 17, unless this happened, because a mistaken identity of a civil airliner of flying over a war airspace, where downing Ukrainian military aircraft had become a routine. The official truth sounds foul, because air crash investigators refuse to compare their own findings against BUK missile creator Almaz-Antey and its provided details of BUK versions Ukraine possessed at that time.

Lokiban , 21 hours ago

Yes, the Netherlands are corrupt.
If England wanted any hints on how to do the Skripall case they just had to look to the Netherlands and their blatant corruption right in yer faces mentallity about MH17.
We live in the age of the apocalypse, it has become unstoppable and with all the corruption being outed one could get a bit shellshocked but hang on, after so much corruption that is being revelead these days, one tends to get bored.

mikamolyneaux , 21 hours ago

As always, the crimes of the super-powerful elite are NEVER properly investigated and blame is NEVER correctly assigned. These guilty psychopaths always get away with murder, blame others or leave their atrocities unexplained. Sadly, this situation will continue for many years because those of us who read these news sites and know what's really going on are a small minority and the rest of the world's population is hypnotized by the mind controlling propaganda programs which the super-powerful elite have put into place and too many of their paid agents who operate the propaganda programs are more interested in the money they are paid than in honest work for promoting the truth.

English herbsman , 21 hours ago

If anyone believe Russia would have the right mind to blow up a civlian airliner during a time where the globallists wants to rape and pillage it, they have their head up their arses.

It was clear from the get go the Nazi's there ordered the strike on MH17, to provacate a war with Russia. Especially since half the of Ukraine is fighting to rejoin Russia.

devnickle , 21 hours ago

Exactly. Hillary is a Nazi. She fits right in. Where is Libya's gold Hitlary? Just wondering?

devnickle , 21 hours ago

The article doesn't matter. The truth has been obvious from day one. Look at the cannon rounds to the cockpit. They killed the pilots. Tick....Tock....

devnickle , 21 hours ago

Ukrainian air force. Orders from Hillary and Nuland.

Internet-is-Beast , 20 hours ago

Hillary wasn't SOS at that time, Kerry was.

Blue Steel 309 , 20 hours ago

I'd be surprised if this was directed from anyone in D.C., but anyone with 2 brain cells knows it was perpetrated by Ukraine coup leaders.

devnickle , 21 hours ago

The Nazi Ukrainian government with approval of Hitlary and Nuland are responsible for this atrocity. NOT Russia. I have known this from the beginning. Gitmo and guillotines are waiting for crimes against humanity. Obama is complicit. He went along. There is a blade waiting for him and Michael too.

devnickle , 21 hours ago

Ukrainian air force jets blew a civilian airliner out of the sky. There is Evidence they thought it was Putin's presidential plane. It doesn't matter. Hillary, Obama, and Nuland are evil, and need to be executed. The time has come .

emmanuelthoreau , 21 hours ago

Nuland's half-brother William (Bill) works for Facebook as an intel analyst, is probably CIA, and one of the biggest assholes I've ever had the opportunity to meet in my life. And this was during a summer foreign language immersion program in which he wasn't allowed to speak English, which meant he didn't have much to say. Not exactly a Rhodes Scholar, that one. He quit before the summer was up, anyway.

We're not done with the Nulands, despite the advice in their father Sherwin's book "How We Die." They'll be back, along with Victoria's (who probably would've been Sec. of State at some point for Hillary) odious husband Bob Kagan. At one time Bob outweighed Vickie by a factor of two; not so much anymore.

devnickle , 21 hours ago

They are all connected. It's incest, but not about sex. Well, maybe that too. Ewwwww.

Karl Marxist , 12 hours ago

Complicit is an understatement. Obama is a mass murder no matter how they're sliced. Regime change in Ukraine, orchestrating or complicit in the outright slaughter of the passengers just to punish, accuse, harm the people of Russia, Russia, Russia. If Obama, HRC, and those eluded to in this article are not prosecuted for murder, then as attn. Larry Klayman said to Jason Goodman this past wee, we have no government. Factually it looks like there already is One World Government which explains why there is no justice. Making things so complex the real targets are obscured, thus let off the hook to get their sexual jollies with little nameless kiddies.

fulliautomatix , 17 hours ago

The Dutch got their gold, which is about as good a result as they could hope for. Australia, well, Abbott got up and offered Porky the opportunity to buy some coal: if that isn't "**** you, mate." from an Aussie I've never seen it. The US still hasn't got around to offering another Ambassador.

Small beans when compared to the value of the actual lives that were lost, but that's politics in western democracies.

edit: oh btw, i think Al Gophilia was writing exquisite sarcasm.

[Dec 31, 2018] If some in the Dutch government were part of the possible MH17 conspiracy, for me it is possible, would explain unexplained facts, but if they were, w'll never know.

Dec 31, 2018 | www.unz.com

jilles dykstra says: Next New Comment December 29, 2018 at 8:17 am GMT 200 Words

... ... ...

When governments perpetrate crimes, very seldom these crimes are proved beyond reasonable doubt.
If some in the Dutch government were part of the possible MH17 conspiracy, for me it is possible, would explain unexplained facts, but if they were, w'll never know.

[Dec 06, 2018] Western airlines really not believe Poroshenko's words that the Ukrainian Armed Forces did not bring down the Malaysian "Boeing" over the Donbas in 2014 The first "fruits" of martial law in Ukraine

(Google translation)
Dec 06, 2018 | thesaker.is

Military Review – News

The owner of FC "Lion": It is difficult for us to find a plane that would fly to Ukraine
published 2018/11/28

In 10 Ukrainian regions, martial law imposed by Poroshenko did not come into force de jure, and
the first "swallows" of this entry have already arrived on Ukrainian soil. And flew in, from where
Kiev did not expect. European air carriers stated that in connection with the introduction of martial
law on the territory of Ukraine, they are forced to radically reconsider the air traffic regime with this
country.

The situation is told by the Ukrainian media, reporting and the accompanying nuances of this decision.
The nuances are connected with the fact that international-level football matches that are scheduled
to take place on Ukrainian territory are becoming suspended in the air.

The UNIAN Information Service cites a statement by Jean-Michel Olas, owner of the "Lyon" (France)
football club: " The decision was made to postpone the "Arsenal" match in London. We do not know
whether we will fly to "Shakhtar", taking into account the political situation. It's difficult for us find a
plane whose owners would send him there. Now the decision is made at the UEFA level. "

Earlier it became known that the match between "Arsenal" (London) and Poltava "Vorskla" in the
Europa League was decided to be moved from the Poltava stadium to Kiev. It is noteworthy that the
Poltava region by the Verkhovna Rada was not included in the zone of introduction of the EaP.

At the same time, the possibility of transferring the match outside Ukraine was also discussed due to
the fact that martial law is beginning to operate in a number of regions of the country.

Conducting two more international matches in Ukraine is open to question.

Recall that the martial law provides, among other things, the closure of airspace. European air
carriers, apparently, are wary of how Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile systems move along the streets
of Ukrainian cities. Do they really not believe Poroshenko's words that " the Ukrainian Armed Forces
did not bring down the Malaysian "Boeing" over the Donbas in 2014 "? ..
(Google translation)

https://topwar.ru/150410-vladelec-fk-lion-nam-trudno-najti-samolet-kotoryj-poletel-by-na-ukrainu.html

[Nov 24, 2018] British Government Runs Secret Anti-Russian Smear Campaigns

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... It lists Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council as "partner organisations" ..."
"... "The UK's Secret Intelligence Service, otherwise known as MI6, has been scrambling to prevent President Trump from publishing classified materials linked to the Russian election meddling investigation. ... much of the espionage performed on the Trump campaign was conducted on UK soil throughout 2016." ..."
"... "Gregory R. Copley, editor and publisher of Defense & Foreign Affairs, posited that Sergei Skripal is the unnamed Russian intelligence source in the Steele dossier. ... In Skripal's pseudo-country-gentleman retirement, the ex-GRU-MI6 double agent was selling custom-made "Russian intelligence"; he had fabricated "material" that went into the Steele dossier..." ..."
"... this movement in the west by gov'ts to pay for generating lies, hate and propaganda towards russia is really sick... it is perfect for the military industrial complex corporations though and they seem to be calling the shots in the west, much more so then the voice of the ordinary person who is not interested in war ..."
"... Seems to me that this shows the primacy of the City of London, with its offshore network of illicit capital accumulation, within Britain. It is a state within a state or even a financial empire within a state, which, for deep historical reasons isn't subject to the same laws as the rest of the UK. ..."
"... The UK's pathological obsession with Russia only makes sense to me as the city's insistence on continued 90s style appropriation of Russia's wealth ..."
"... British hypocrisy publicly called out. How this all unravels is one to watch. Extra large popcorn and soda for me ..."
"... It seems to me that the UK has far more to lose from doxxing than Russia does. The interference in sovereign allied states to 'manage' who the UK thinks they should appoint does not bode well for such relations ..."
"... A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times and Neil Buckley from the FT." Subcluster. Love it. Just how crap do you have to be to fail to make it to membership of a full cluster of smear merchants? ..."
"... I doubt very seriously that the British launched this operation without the CIA's implicit and explicit support. This has all the markings of a John Brennan operation that has been launched stealthily to prevent anyone from knowing its real origins. ..."
"... The Brits don't act alone, and a project of this magnitude did not begin without Langley's explicit approval. ..."
"... Now check out the wording in the above document: "Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow." Think about that. What would have blocked the flow of USG support for this project?? Why, the allegations of collusion against Trump, of course. Naturally, the Republicans are not going to provide money to an operation that threatens to destroy the head of their own party. So, there has been no bipartisan agreement on funding for anti-Russia propaganda ..."
"... This mob was created in the autumn of 2015, according to their site. That would have been about the time -- probably just after -- the Russians intervened in Syria. The Brits had plans for an invasion of Syria in 2009, according to their fave Guardian fish wrap. ..."
"... Pat Lang posted a report that strongly implies that charges of Russian influence on Trump are a deliberate falsification ..."
"... It seems quite possible that what is alleged as "Russian meddling" is actually CIA-MI6 meddling ..."
"... As I have said before, MAGA is a POLICY RESPONSE to the challenge from Russia and China. The election of a Republican faux populist was necessary and Trump, despite his many flaws, was the best candidate for the job. ..."
"... The Integrity Initiative's goal is to defend democracy against the truth about Russia. All this is so Orwellian. When will we get the Ministry of Love? ..."
"... They shot at an elephant and failed to kill it. So yes, out of the combo of frustration, resentment, and fear they hate the resurgent Russia and prefer Cold War II, and if necessary WWIII, to peaceful co-existence. Of course the usual corporate imperative (in this case weapons profiteering) reinforces the mass psychological pathology among the elites. ..."
"... The ironic thing is that Putin doesn't prefer to challenge the neoliberal globalist "order" at all, but would happily see Russia take a prominent place within it. It's the US and its UK poodle who are insisting on confrontation. ..."
"... Great article! It reminded me of what I read in George Orwell's novella "1984." He summed it all up brilliantly in nine words: "War is Peace"; "Freedom is Slavery"; "Ignorance is Strength." The three pillars of political power. ..."
"... Since UK has always blocked the "European Intelligence" initiative, on the basis of his pertenence to the "Five Eyes", and as UK is leaving the European Union, where it has always been the Troyan Horse of the US, one would think that all these people belonging to the so called "clusters" should register themselves as "foreign agents" working for UK government. ..."
"... William Browder ..."
Nov 24, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

British Government Runs Secret Anti-Russian Smear Campaigns Steveg , Nov 24, 2018 11:43:44 AM | link

In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia propaganda into the western media stream.

We have already seen many consequences of this and similar programs which are designed to smear anyone who does not follow the anti-Russian government lines. The 'Russian collusion' smear campaign against Donald Trump based on the Steele dossier was also a largely British operation but seems to be part of a different project.

The ' Integrity Initiative ' builds 'cluster' or contact groups of trusted journalists, military personal, academics and lobbyists within foreign countries. These people get alerts via social media to take action when the British center perceives a need.

On June 7 it took the the Spanish cluster only a few hours to derail the appointment of Perto Banos as the Director of the National Security Department in Spain. The cluster determined that he had a too positive view of Russia and launched a coordinated social media smear campaign (pdf) against him.


bigger

The Initiative and its operations were unveiled when someone liberated some of its documents, including its budget applications to the British Foreign Office, and posted them under the 'Anonymous' label at cyberguerrilla.org .

The Initiative is nominally run under the (government financed) non-government-organisation The Institute For Statecraft . Its internal handbook (pdf) describes its purpose:

The Integrity Initiative was set up in autumn 2015 by The Institute for Statecraft in cooperation with the Free University of Brussels (VUB) to bring to the attention of politicians, policy-makers, opinion leaders and other interested parties the threat posed by Russia to democratic institutions in the United Kingdom, across Europe and North America.

It lists Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council as "partner organisations" and promises that:

Cluster members will be sent to educational sessions abroad to improve the technical competence of the cluster to deal with disinformation and strengthen bonds in the cluster community. [...] (Events with DFR Digital Sherlocks, Bellingcat, EuVsDisinfo, Buzzfeed, Irex, Detector Media, Stopfake, LT MOD Stratcom – add more names and propose cluster participants as you desire).

The Initiatives Orwellian slogan is 'Defending Democracy Against Disinformation'. It covers European countries, the UK, the U.S. and Canada and seems to want to expand to the Middle East.

On its About page it claims: "We are not a government body but we do work with government departments and agencies who share our aims." The now published budget plans show that more than 95% of the Initiative's funding is coming directly from the British government, NATO and the U.S. State Department. All the 'contact persons' for creating 'clusters' in foreign countries are British embassy officers. It amounts to a foreign influence campaign by the British government that hides behind a 'civil society' NGO.

The organisation is led by one Chris N. Donnelly who receives (pdf) £8,100 per month for creating the smear campaign network.


Chris Donnelly - Pic via Euromaidanpress

From its 2017/18 budget application (pdf) we learn how the Initiative works:

To counter Russian disinformation and malign influence in Europe by: expanding the knowledge base; harnessing existing expertise, and; establishing a network of networks of experts, opinion formers and policy makers, to educate national audiences in the threat and to help build national capacities to counter it .

The Initiative has a black and white view that is based on a "we are the good ones" illusion. When "we" 'educate the public' it is legitimate work. When others do similar, it its disinformation. That is of course not the reality. The Initiative's existence itself, created to secretly manipulate the public, is proof that such a view is wrong.

If its work were as legit as it wants to be seen, why would the Foreign Office run it from behind the curtain as an NGO? The Initiative is not the only such operation. It's applications seek funding from a larger "Russian Language Strategic Communication Programme" run by the Foreign Office.

The 2017/18 budget application sought FCO funding of £480,635. It received £102,000 in co-funding from NATO and the Lithuanian Ministry of Defense. The 2018/19 budget application shows a planned spending (pdf) of £1,961,000.00. The co-sponsors this year are again NATO and the Lithuanian MoD, but also include (pdf) the U.S. State Department with £250,000 and Facebook with £100,000. The budget lays out a strong cooperation with the local military of each country. It notes that NATO is also generous in financing the local clusters.

One of the liberated papers of the Initiative is a talking points memo labeled Top 3 Deliverable for FCO (pdf):

  • Developing and proving the cluster concept and methodology, setting up clusters in a range of countries with different circumstances
  • Making people (in Government, think tanks, military, journalists) see the big picture, making people acknowledge that we are under concerted, deliberate hybrid attack by Russia
  • Increasing the speed of response, mobilising the network to activism in pursuit of the "golden minute"

Under top 1, setting up clusters, a subitem reads:

- Connects media with academia with policy makers with practitioners in a country to impact on policy and society: ( Jelena Milic silencing pro-kremlin voices on Serbian TV )

Defending Democracy by silencing certain voices on public TV seems to be a self-contradicting concept.

Another subitem notes how the Initiative secretly influences foreign governments:

We engage only very discreetly with governments, based entirely on trusted personal contacts, specifically to ensure that they do not come to see our work as a problem, and to try to influence them gently, as befits an independent NGO operation like ours, viz;
- Germany, via the Zentrum Liberale Moderne to the Chancellor's Office and MOD
- Netherlands, via the HCSS to the MOD
- Poland and Romania, at desk level into their MFAs via their NATO Reps
- Spain, via special advisers, into the MOD and PM's office (NB this may change very soon with the new Government)
- Norway, via personal contacts into the MOD
- HQ NATO, via the Policy Planning Unit into the Sec Gen's office.
We have latent contacts into other governments which we will activate as needs be as the clusters develop.

A look at the 'clusters' set up in U.S. and UK shows some prominent names.


bigger

Members of the Atlantic Council, which has a contract to censor Facebook posts , appear on several cluster lists. The UK core cluster also includes some prominent names like tax fraudster William Browder , the daft Atlantic Council shill Ben Nimmo and the neo-conservative Washington Post columnist Anne Applebaum. One person of interest is Andrew Wood who handed the Steele 'dirty dossier' to Senator John McCain to smear Donald Trump over alleged relations with Russia. A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times, Neil Buckley from the FT and Jonathan Marcus of the BBC.


bigger - bigger

A ' Cluster Roundup ' (pdf) from July 2018 details its activities in at least 35 countries. Another file reveals (pdf) the local partnering institutions and individuals involved in the programs.

The Initiatives Guide to Countering Russian Information (pdf) is a rather funny read. It lists the downing of flight MH 17 by a Ukranian BUK missile, the fake chemical incident in Khan Sheikhoun and the Skripal Affair as examples for "Russian disinformation". But at least two of these events, Khan Sheikun via the UK run White Helmets and the Skripal affair, are evidently products of British intelligence disinformation operations.

The probably most interesting papers of the whole stash is the 'Project Plan' laid out at pages 7-40 of the 2018 budget application v2 (pdf). Under 'Sustainability' it notes:

The programme is proposed to run until at least March 2019, to ensure that the clusters established in each country have sufficient time to take root, find funding, and demonstrate their effectiveness. FCO funding for Phase 2 will enable the activities to be expanded in scale, reach and scope. As clusters have established themselves, they have begun to access local sources of funding. But this is a slow process and harder in some countries than others. HQ NATO PDD [Public Diplomacy Division] has proved a reliable source of funding for national clusters. The ATA [Atlantic Treaty Association] promises to be the same, giving access to other pots of money within NATO and member nations. Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow.

The programme has begun to create a critical mass of individuals from a cross society (think tanks, academia, politics, the media, government and the military) whose work is proving to be mutually reinforcing . Creating the network of networks has given each national group local coherence, credibility and reach, as well as good international access. Together, these conditions, plus the growing awareness within governments of the need for this work, should guarantee the continuity of the work under various auspices and in various forms.

The third part of the budget application (pdf) list the various activities, their output and outcome. The budget plan includes a section that describes 'Risks' to the initiative. These include hacking of the Initiatives IT as well as:

Adverse publicity generated by Russia or by supporters of Russia in target countries, or by political and interest groups affected by the work of the programme, aimed at discrediting the programme or its participants, or to create political embarrassment.

We hope that this piece contributes to such embarrassment.

Posted by b on November 24, 2018 at 11:24 AM | Permalink

Comments Perfidious ALbion!

When will we learn?


pretzelattack , Nov 24, 2018 11:44:00 AM | link

Coincidentally, or not, i just saw this article at the guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/23/robert-mueller-profile-donald-trump-russia-investigation.
Anya , Nov 24, 2018 11:57:00 AM | link
The British government has been running a serious meddling into the US affairs:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-23/mi6-scrambling-stop-trump-releasing-classified-docs-russia-probe

"The UK's Secret Intelligence Service, otherwise known as MI6, has been scrambling to prevent President Trump from publishing classified materials linked to the Russian election meddling investigation. ... much of the espionage performed on the Trump campaign was conducted on UK soil throughout 2016."

A Steele & Skrupal's anti-Russian / anti-Trump saga: https://spectator.org/big-dots-do-they-connect/

"Gregory R. Copley, editor and publisher of Defense & Foreign Affairs, posited that Sergei Skripal is the unnamed Russian intelligence source in the Steele dossier. ... In Skripal's pseudo-country-gentleman retirement, the ex-GRU-MI6 double agent was selling custom-made "Russian intelligence"; he had fabricated "material" that went into the Steele dossier..."

For M16 to expose this level of stupidity is stunning.

james , Nov 24, 2018 11:58:02 AM | link
thanks b....

this movement in the west by gov'ts to pay for generating lies, hate and propaganda towards russia is really sick... it is perfect for the military industrial complex corporations though and they seem to be calling the shots in the west, much more so then the voice of the ordinary person who is not interested in war.. i guess the idea is to get the ordinary people to think in terms of hating another country based on lies and that this would be a good thing... it is very sad what uk / usa leadership in the past century has come down to here.... i can only hope that info releases like this will hasten it's demise...

Ingrian , Nov 24, 2018 12:03:55 PM | link
Seems to me that this shows the primacy of the City of London, with its offshore network of illicit capital accumulation, within Britain. It is a state within a state or even a financial empire within a state, which, for deep historical reasons isn't subject to the same laws as the rest of the UK.

The UK's pathological obsession with Russia only makes sense to me as the city's insistence on continued 90s style appropriation of Russia's wealth

james , Nov 24, 2018 12:15:31 PM | link
@6 ingrian... things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit Russia fully, as they'd intended...
et Al , Nov 24, 2018 12:20:09 PM | link

Let the Doxx wars begin! Sure, Anonymous is not Russian but it will surely now be targeted and smeared as such which would show that it has hit a nerve. British hypocrisy publicly called out. How this all unravels is one to watch. Extra large popcorn and soda for me.

I think we've all noticed the euro-asslantic press (and friends) on behalf of, willingly and in cooperation with the British intelligence et al 'calling out' numerous Russians as G(R)U/spies/whatever for a while now yet providing less than a shred of credible evidence.

It seems to me that the UK has far more to lose from doxxing than Russia does. The interference in sovereign allied states to 'manage' who the UK thinks they should appoint does not bode well for such relations.

Meanwhile in Brussels they are having their cake and eating it, i.e. bemoaning Europe's 'weak response' to Russian propaganda:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/experts-lament-underfunding-of-eu-task-force-countering-russian-disinformation/

BTW, did anyone read Wired UK's current advertorial (nov 14) by Carl Miller for Brigade 77?

Forthestate , Nov 24, 2018 12:26:09 PM | link
"A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times and Neil Buckley from the FT." Subcluster. Love it. Just how crap do you have to be to fail to make it to membership of a full cluster of smear merchants?
worldblee , Nov 24, 2018 12:33:05 PM | link
Yet another example of the pot calling the kettle black when in fact the kettle may not be black at all; it's just the pot making up things. "These Russian criminals are using propaganda to show (truths) like the fact the DNC and Clinton campaigns colluded to prevent Sanders from being nominated, so we need to establish a clandestine propaganda network to establish that the Russians are running propaganda!"
psychohistorian , Nov 24, 2018 12:34:32 PM | link

....full cluster of smear merchants". May all the clusters of smear merchants be exposed to the public as the acolytes of evil they are.

plantman , Nov 24, 2018 12:36:48 PM | link
"In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia propaganda into the western media stream."

I doubt very seriously that the British launched this operation without the CIA's implicit and explicit support. This has all the markings of a John Brennan operation that has been launched stealthily to prevent anyone from knowing its real origins.

The Brits don't act alone, and a project of this magnitude did not begin without Langley's explicit approval.

Now check out the wording in the above document: "Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow." Think about that. What would have blocked the flow of USG support for this project?? Why, the allegations of collusion against Trump, of course. Naturally, the Republicans are not going to provide money to an operation that threatens to destroy the head of their own party. So, there has been no bipartisan agreement on funding for anti-Russia propaganda

BUT...the author assures us that the "deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow" Huh?? In other words, the fix is in. Mueller will pardon Trump on collusion charges but the propaganda campaign against Russia will continue...with the full support of both parties. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it...

m , Nov 24, 2018 12:40:07 PM | link
This mob was created in the autumn of 2015, according to their site. That would have been about the time -- probably just after -- the Russians intervened in Syria. The Brits had plans for an invasion of Syria in 2009, according to their fave Guardian fish wrap.

A lot of sour grapes with this so-called 'integrity initiative', IMO. BP was behind a lot of this, I would also think. When Assad pulled the plug on the pipeline through the Levant in 2009, the Brits hacked up a fur ball. It's gone downhill for them ever since. Couldn't happen to a nicer lot. If you can't invade or beat them with proxies, you can at least call them names.

Jackrabbit , Nov 24, 2018 12:40:58 PM | link
Anya

Pat Lang posted a report that strongly implies that charges of Russian influence on Trump are a deliberate falsification: THE CHIMERA OF DONALD TRUMP, RUSSIAN MONEY LAUNDERER :

If Trump was taking dirty money or engaged in criminal activity with Russians then he was doing it with Felix Sater, who was under the control of the FBI... And who was in charge of the FBI during all of the time that Sater was a signed up FBI snitch? You got it -- Robert Mueller (2001 thru 2013) ...

It seems quite possible that what is alleged as "Russian meddling" is actually CIA-MI6 meddling, including:

Steele dossier: To create suspicion in government, media, and later the public

Leaking of DNC emails to Wikileaks (but calling it a "hack"): To help with election of Trump and link Wikileaks (as agent) to Russian election meddling

Cambridge Analytica: To provide necessary reasoning for Trump's (certain) win of the electoral college.

Note: We later found that dozens of firms had undue access to Facebook data. Why did the campaign turn to a British firm instead of an American firm? Well, it had to be a British firm if MI6 was running the (supposed) Facebook targeting for CIA.

As I have said before, MAGA is a POLICY RESPONSE to the challenge from Russia and China. The election of a Republican faux populist was necessary and Trump, despite his many flaws, was the best candidate for the job.
Cyril , Nov 24, 2018 1:10:13 PM | link
The Integrity Initiative's goal is to defend democracy against the truth about Russia. All this is so Orwellian. When will we get the Ministry of Love?
Russ , Nov 24, 2018 1:16:21 PM | link
Posted by: james | Nov 24, 2018 12:15:31 PM | 7

"things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of russia after the fall of the soviet union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit russia fully, as they'd intended..."

They shot at an elephant and failed to kill it. So yes, out of the combo of frustration, resentment, and fear they hate the resurgent Russia and prefer Cold War II, and if necessary WWIII, to peaceful co-existence. Of course the usual corporate imperative (in this case weapons profiteering) reinforces the mass psychological pathology among the elites.

The ironic thing is that Putin doesn't prefer to challenge the neoliberal globalist "order" at all, but would happily see Russia take a prominent place within it. It's the US and its UK poodle who are insisting on confrontation.

GeorgeV , Nov 24, 2018 1:34:08 PM | link
Great article! It reminded me of what I read in George Orwell's novella "1984." He summed it all up brilliantly in nine words: "War is Peace"; "Freedom is Slavery"; "Ignorance is Strength." The three pillars of political power.
Sasha , Nov 24, 2018 1:38:39 PM | link
Since UK has always blocked the "European Intelligence" initiative, on the basis of his pertenence to the "Five Eyes", and as UK is leaving the European Union, where it has always been the Troyan Horse of the US, one would think that all these people belonging to the so called "clusters" should register themselves as "foreign agents" working for UK government...and in this context, new empowerished sovereign governemts into the EU should consider the possibility expelling these traitors as spies of the UK....

http://www.voltairenet.org/article204051.html

Some of the "clusters" unmasked here....some, like Ignacio Torreblanca in Spain, are related to the CFR....

https://www.rt.com/news/444737-uk-funded-campaign-russia-leaks/

Zanon , Nov 24, 2018 2:12:45 PM | link
Country list of agents of influence according to the leak:
Zanon , Nov 24, 2018 2:13:28 PM | link
cresty , Nov 24, 2018 2:18:30 PM | link
Thank you very much for going through all the files, b. Will share far and wide

[Nov 23, 2018] Charlers Johnson on MH17

Jul 07, 2017 | twitter.com
Power Vertical ‏ @ REALPLTK

Listen to x CIA tell of 2 standard procedures 58:20 is Ukraine Snipers 59:40 MH 17 # MH17 # Maidan # ukraine2017

https://twitter.com/i/cards/tfw/v1/883549896069922817?cardname=player&autoplay_disabled=true&earned=true&edge=true&lang=en&card_height=130&scribe_context=%7B%22client%22%3A%22web%22%2C%22page%22%3A%22permalink%22%2C%22section%22%3A%22permalink%22%2C%22component%22%3A%22tweet%22%7D&bearer_token=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPYXBAAAAAAACLXUNDekMxqa8h%252F40K4moUkGsoc%253DTYfbDKbT3jJPCEVnMYqilB28NHfOPqkca3qaAxGfsyKCs0wRbw#xdm_e=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com&xdm_c=default2075&xdm_p=1

1 reply 7 retweets 13 likes Fz
    1. Power Vertical ‏ @ REALPLTK 7 Jul 2017
Replying to @ REALPLTK

"The shooting down of an airplane that was over Peru, full of missionaries" "sent airforce to shoot it down" Recall witnesses seeing jets ? 0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes

[Nov 23, 2018] Bellingcat (not Belingcat) is a [intelligence aenies] front, financed by amongst other orgs, the Atlantic Council which in turn is financed by, well it's a long list!

Nov 23, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

William Bowles , Nov 23, 2018 10:55:00 AM | link

@61

Bellingcat (not Belingcat) is a [intelligence aenies] front, financed by amongst other orgs, the Atlantic Council which in turn is financed by, well it's a long list!

http://www.thinktankwatch.com/2015/11/the-donors-of-atlantic-council.html

[Nov 02, 2018] The Dutch were not right about MH17, and neither are the Danes.

Notable quotes:
"... The Dutch were not right about MH17, and neither are the Danes. Almost certainly another anti-Iranian false flag coming -- this on American soil -- with war soon to follow. https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/ ..."
Nov 02, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Nick Baam , Nov 1, 2018 3:33:01 PM | link

craigsummers:

The Dutch were not right about MH17, and neither are the Danes. Almost certainly another anti-Iranian false flag coming -- this on American soil -- with war soon to follow. https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/

'The Russian military traced the Buk missile [9M38 missile], which shot down the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in 2014, using serial numbers found on missile fragments showcased by an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands.

'Using the serial number of the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 No. 8-30-113 and the engine of the missile 9D131 with the serial number 8869032, the Russian military identified this missile as one produced by the Dolgoprudny plant -- a Soviet/Russian designer and mass producer of surface-to-air missiles located in the city of Dolgoprudny, Moscow Oblast.

'The military said that the documentation for the aforementioned missile is still stored at the plant -- the missile with the aforementioned engine and nozzle cluster has the manufacturing serial number of 8868720.

'According to the provided documents, the nozzle cluster was installed in the missile on December 24, 1986. The engine was installed to the missile on the same day.'

[Oct 20, 2018] Looks like we are living in Matrix environment

The power of propaganda is such that it is able to create the artificial reality in which Western citizen live. Right out of the Matrix ;-)
As jilles dykstra noted: "The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show."
Notable quotes:
"... Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections. ..."
"... The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen. ..."
Oct 20, 2018 | www.unz.com

Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. The commission refused Russians access to its findings; this unfair dealing would force any intelligence service in the world to try and learn what had been found.

Not that it was of any use. The Dutch commission indeed found out the numbers of the missile that destroyed the jet; the Russians went through their documents and proved that this particular missile had been delivered to the Ukraine (when it was a Soviet republic) and remained there. A scoop! Now we know what happened with the jet – it was destroyed by the Ukrainians, presumably by mistake, like they downed another Russian airliner . However, the Western media ignored this scoop altogether. They decided to blame the crash on the Russians, and so they did to the end. Even if Russian intelligence were to find and deliver to the Hague the Ukrainian soldiers who operated the missile launcher, the Dutch, as loyal NATO members, would look other way.

This already happened regarding Syrian chemical attacks – the Russians and the Syrians delivered the very kids who unwillingly participated in the White Helmets' staged and filmed 'attack, directly to the OPCW. It was of no use. These guys are not after truth, they are just repeating the narrative they learned by rote.

Still, Russian intelligence worth of its name would be expected to try and obtain maximum findings in order to help the government to clear Russia's name of unjust accusations. There revelations of Russian activity weren't particularly dangerous or vicious. But while this subject had been discussed, a very painful and distressing development had been revealed.

The Western intelligence services have achieved incredible knowledge of whatever happens in Russia. They have obtained extensive databases of Russian everyday life from traffic violations and fines to passport scans, from residence registration to taxi requests, from messenger chats to emails, allowing them to trace persons and events in Russia with uncanny precision.

Many databases had been stolen and sold by small-time crooks; Western intelligences had made a concentrated effort to buy whatever is available on the black market; some bases were stolen and sold for crypto-currencies on the deep internet.

The most valuable databases had been sold by the crooks and/or traitors, while the Information Security Centre of FSB (ЦИБ ФСБ) led by colonel Sergei Mikhailov who is now being tried for the high treason, did nothing to stop the leak.

jilles dykstra , says: October 20, 2018 at 7:23 am GMT

" Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. "

How ?

Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections.

If it was an accident, a very lucky one, hitting a plane coming from Amsterdam.

The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen.

[Oct 18, 2018] Lavrov Accuses Bellingcat of Serving Western Intelligence

Oct 18, 2018 | themoscowtimes.com

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/moscow-accuses-bellingcat-serving-western-intelligence-63212):

".......Russia's foreign minister has accused the open-source Bellingcat investigative team of acting as a front for Western intelligence services seeking to manipulate public opinion.

Bellingcat has played a leading role in identifying the alleged names of two men accused of trying to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain this year. It has previously published investigations that reportedly link Russia to the downing of flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine and suspected chemical attacks in Syria.

"It's no secret to anyone, Western journalists write openly that Bellingcat is connected to special services," Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Euronews on Tuesday.

"They leak information through it to have some effect on public opinion," he said......."

[Oct 12, 2018] Sic Semper Tyrannis RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 11 OCTOBER 2018 by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat . Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning .)


Araminta Smade , 16 hours ago

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat. Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning.)

To those of you who are like myself deeply sceptical about this story can I recommend this article in the UK Independent newspaper.

We should be asking for answers about the Skripals and Bellingcat – and not just from Russia. Mary Dejevsky.

https://www.independent.co....

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

FB -> Snow Flake , an hour ago
I think some people here are actually taking Eliott Higgins far too seriously...he is still an uneducated underwear salesman...and acts like it...case in point his recent twitter outburst at Ted Postol, calling him an 'idiot'...that just shows what a substance free clown this guy is...

I briefly looked at that blog article linked to by snowflake and it is basically verbal diarrhea...bottom line is that Higgins and that Bellincat 'outfit' are best simply ignored...not worth the time or mental bandwidth to even think about...

smoothieX12 . -> Snow Flake , 2 hours ago
Atlantic Council has a very great Ph.D consultant, and strategists' strategist and tacticians' tactician, Dr. Blank. He, of all places, taught in US Army War College. He taught, of course, about Russia, since he has Ph.D in Soviet/Russian "history" or whatever passes as such in US "Russian Studies" field.

http://www.wikistrat.com/ex...

His strategic concepts are so devoid of even basic high school level knowledge of Russia (and her geography, BTW) that one is forced to ask how is it even possible to have this kind of "experts"? Among many outlandish ideas Dr. Blank proposed in his academic career dedicated to fighting evil Russians was to send US Navy to the Azov Sea to demonstrate the US Naval might.

http://www.atlanticcouncil....

This was one of the most profound facepalm moments of my life--I mean it. Not only Dr. Blank has no clue about Russia, he also has no clue about US Navy. Yet, he is an expert, alright.

TTG , 19 hours ago
You left the best part out of that State Department policy statement. He announced a new position, the Senior Advisor for Russian Malign Activities and Trends or SARMAT for short. That's straight out of the axis of evil mindset. How can we have a sober and productive policy towards Russia with crap like this?
PRC90 -> TTG , 8 hours ago
I thought that was from Duffleblog but you're right: https://www.state.gov/p/eur...
Third para from the bottom. Part of that $380 million must be Bellingcat's budget.
Timothy Hagios -> TTG , 9 hours ago
I can't wait to see what awful person is selected for this role. Also, Sarmat is also the name for Russia's newest ICBM, which makes one wonder what was on the back of their minds when they came up with this one.
ted richard , 4 hours ago
washingtons foreign policy visa vie russia and china is as yet unable to reach the psychological stage of sublimation. frustrated, angry and demoralised that they can not militarily atttack russia once and for all putting paid ....to who is the biggest dog in the yard...... american elites lash out ineffectually using various media, economic and financial games to assuage their inability to get their way.

each iteration of this plan becomes weaker and less effective than the previous one leading to more rage at being thwarted.

where the current crop of american ruling elites are concerned we are talking about 2 factors.... a profound lack of a really good cosmopolitan education and a near total lack of appreciation for how weak the american industrial base has become the past 30 years (you can not intimidate powerful nations if your military technology is 1 or more generations BEHIND)

an apt understanding of washingtons dilemma is best grasped reading the kubler-ross stages of grieving over a dying loved one. in this case the dying loved one is american exceptionalism and the l godlike power that goes with it for the 1/100 or 1%.

its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting.

[Oct 12, 2018] Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

Notable quotes:
"... Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Red Ryder , Oct 11, 2018 5:13:17 PM | link

Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

"Highly Likely" Iran had a hand in it also. Judas was a 'Persian', of course, and would have been a Shiite if he hadn't been suicidal and lived another 800 years or so.

Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned.

[Oct 12, 2018] Austraia is staunch member of five eyes and that shows.

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Oct 12, 2018 5:34:22 AM | link

Official propaganda here in oz.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-11/bellingcat-probing-whether-russian-spies-compromised-mh17-probe/10362090
The Malaysian's remarks surprised observers. At a parliamentary hearing in Canberra, foreign affairs legal officer James Larsen was asked whether Russia was directly in the frame for the atrocity.

"Australia believes there is conclusive evidence," he said.

Mr Loke's remarks also caught the attention of Christo Grozev, an investigator with Bellingcat, a London-based reporting website that has recently dragged several of Russia's covert disruptions into the light.

It was a "surprising dissension", he said. Malaysia was the "only country that did not fully endorse the findings of the joint investigation team".

In an interview with the ABC, Mr Grozev said Bellingcat was now actively probing whether Russia had played a role in this public display of disunity.

The team's "working hypothesis", he said, was that the entire Malaysian contingent, or one member of it, had been compromised by Russia's spies.
.......

Col from OZ , Oct 12, 2018 6:47:57 AM | link

32 Peter keep up the good work! Ukraine IS RESPONSIBLY for MH17. I am of the opinion it was premeditated too.

[Oct 12, 2018] It no longer possible to hide the fact that Bellingcat is a propaganda operation financed by intelligence againcies, not that different from White Helmetss

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

jsb , Oct 11, 2018 6:00:34 PM | link

@Red Ryder (14)

Even Bellingcat beginning to be outed by the Independent

not seen till now though is any questioning of Bellingcat's credentials in mainstream media. So let me hand you over, without further ado and with hearty if surprised approval, to Mary Dejevsky: not known as a Kremlin stooge or Putin troll. Yet here she is, in today's Independent, asking in all sincerity and with admirable bluntness just WTF is Bellingcat?

[Oct 11, 2018] Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back.

Oct 11, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:40 pm

Bellingcat exclusive!!!!!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Gosh!

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:41 pm
Bum link again!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Mark Chapman October 8, 2018 at 8:02 pm
Where would we be without solid, honest citizen journalism like this? Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back. In fact, we have not heard Peep One from any of them since Bellingcat burst on the scene, and the British press goes straight to print from its reports, to hell with waiting for informed comment from the intelligence services or law enforcement.

Come to think about it, what are their countries paying them for?

Cortes October 8, 2018 at 11:15 pm
I'm looking forward to the first Bellingcat spin-offs.

Eliot Higgins – Special Invesigator featuring Tom Cruise and introducing Sparky his lovable mongrel dog which miraculously survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre and can sniff out GRU agents a mile away.

Jen October 9, 2018 at 8:35 pm
How Sparky the lovable mongrel dog survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre:

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/881477/505e84f8-9835-4ab0-9a12-1d7ea375c032/orig

His weaknesses are sniffing power pylons and swallowing batteries.

Cortes October 9, 2018 at 11:41 pm
Excellent!
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:08 am
And following temporary employment reviewing orders at a Leicester UK women's underwear manufacturer, the unemployed Higgins then "dispensed with looking for another job so that he could devote himself to blogging full-time" and has now pogressed to being a senior fellow in the "Digital Forensic Research Laboratory" and the "Future Europe Initiative", projects run by the Washington, D.C based "think tank" the "Atlantic Council".


Higgins hard at work researching

A "kept man"? His wife must bring home the bacon then.

Well, she would if she were not a Turk.

The then 32-year-old Higgins started blogging about the civil war in Syria from his home as Brown Moses: "He had no formal intelligence training or security clearance that gave him access to classified documents. He could not speak or read Arabic. He had never set foot in the Middle East, unless you count the time he changed planes in Dubai en route to Manila, or his trip to visit his in-laws in Turkey".

As far as I am aware, he still has no credentials for his chosen field, albeit he is now a "fellow" of this and that. He has also since bursting into the bloggosphere considerably put on weight:

Higgins belongs to an obsessive coterie of self-appointed military intelligence experts who use social media to piece together critical details of faraway conflicts, often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex, these amateur analysts have honed a novel set of sleuthing skills that fuse old-fashioned detective work with new sources of intelligence generated by cell phone cameras and spread by social networks. Syria's war, widely considered the most documented conflict in history, has turned social media into a weapon of mass detection -- critical both for fighters on the ground and for faraway observers trying to make sense of the conflict.

The mind boggles: he and his fellow "amateur analysts" are often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex !!!

See: Inside The One-Man Intelligence Unit That Exposed The Secrets And Atrocities Of Syria's War , by Bianca Boscar.

Bianca Bosker is the Executive Tech Editor of the Huffington Post.

Well who'd a-thowt!

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:11 am
And Higgins is also an unabashed liar:

Eliot Higgins,: "I've not received funding from NED. Stop reading conspiracy websites"

Also Eliot Higgins "Bellingcat has received money from NED"

#BellingCrap #lieslieslies #UnderwearSalesman #CarpetSlippers pic.twitter.com/VvciGlaTtw

-- Emma (@emmadefano1) September 29, 2018

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:29 pm
Once upon a time, nobody would dare to do what they are doing because of the danger of a ruinous lawsuit. But so long as he continues accusing the right people, the west will safeguard him from that as best it can. Maybe that's the way to go. They've left themselves without a retreat, saying this and that are 'confirmed'. Sue the outfit.
Jen October 8, 2018 at 9:05 pm
Bum link again? well it's Bellingcrap, what else could it be but a bum link?
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 12:43 am
And now avidly reported by the British government organ, the "independent", non-Westminster-contolled BBC:

Skripal attack: Second Russian Salisbury suspect named

At least the BBC labels "Dr. Mishkin" as a "suspect"..

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:06 am
Note how Bellingtwat states that it has "conclusively" established the real identity of Petrov on evidence gleaned from "multiple open sources" and "testimony from people familiar with the person" in question.

How do they do this?

First to the post again and well ahead of all the Western intelligence agencies, which are obviously understaffed with incompetents and not in possession of state-of-the-art means of gathering intelligence such as . errrr, Facebook?

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:10 am

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:41 am

I'm sick of Western European shite in general.

A few days ago, that lying old slag May appeared on stage at the Conservative Party annual conference with Abba's "Dancing Queen" playing in the bacground. May appeared to be trying to dance to the Abba hit. What a cupid old stunt!

And yesterday at an EUSSR Brussels conference, EU chief-executive and piss-artist Juncker appears to have been possibly trying to take the piss out of that old, lying bag May's gyrations:

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:25 pm
Dear God. She gives new meaning to 'wooden', and makes Pinocchio look like he was made of quicksilver.
Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:09 am
Yes, their resources really do beat all, don't they? Able to trawl through Russians' private records at will, even those ominously marked, "Not for public release". But then, they have lots of willing helpers inside Russia, which the western intelligence agencies officially have not. Makes you wonder how Russia can miss catching them, innit, considering the intertubes are strictly controlled in Russia and all their intelligence transactions are in the public domain? I mean, with their troll farms and all their snoopy organizations?
Jen October 9, 2018 at 3:46 am
Bellingcrap could have just mentioned its sources during the course of its article instead of proclaiming that it's going to detail in another post to be supposedly published today (9 October 2018) the methodology it and The Insider Russia used and the information trail established. Perhaps a sign that Bellingcrap is starting to feel some pressure to lift its game to a level acceptable to its masters at The Atlantic Council?
kirill October 9, 2018 at 8:16 pm
I guess the belled cat thinks he's immune from some "GRU" hit. LOL.
et Al October 9, 2018 at 2:32 am
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. BellEndCat can only manage the former. Still, it's good enough for the BBC who this morning spoke to a (former?) Georgian minister who was saying that if the West was united and stopped Russia from invading Georgia in 2008, then Ukraine, Crimea, Skripals etc. wouldn't have happened, followed by BBC correspondent Norton who said that 'was about right'.
cartman October 9, 2018 at 10:14 am
Don't forget that Bellingcat is linked to the Stasi:

Forgot about this: Der Spiegel outed Bellingcat analyst as former full-time Stasi goon. https://t.co/kfB69NuQ6N

-- Yasha Levine (@yashalevine) October 9, 2018

[Oct 08, 2018] The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

Oct 08, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Alfred (Cairns) , Oct 6, 2018 8:01:38 PM | link

The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

"MH17 -- DUTCH PREPARE MISSILE ATTACK ON MOSCOW"

http://johnhelmer.net/mh-17-dutch-prepare-missile-attack-on-moscow/

I hope their nationalists get back control of their own government before too long.

Here is a typical piece of nonsense inspired by fear of democracy. There is definitely a panic in the works.

"The New Dutch Disease Is White Nationalism: An upstart far-right party in the Netherlands threatens to entrench xenophobia in one of Europe's most progressive countries. "

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/20/the-new-dutch-disease-is-white-nationalism/

psychohistorian , Oct 7, 2018 2:05:57 AM | link
Below is a link to a posting by Eric Zuesse writing that Ukraine is now the attempted flash point for WWIII

US Switching to Ukraine as Location to Start World War III Against Russia

I continue to believe that China has made it quite clear to the US that any nukes headed to Russia will be presumed aimed at them and be retaliated against....so I don't see nuke war but continued economic war and the less and less international mayhem as Russia/China continue to hem in the dying empire beast

Before the end of this year the world will be tied up into gridlock between the factions that in my mind continue to represent the culturally imbued concepts of public or private money/finance.

consensus versus bullying styles of management. I am tired of bullying and think many others are also....the example we just saw with the Supreme Court circus and John Cornyn saying the the Senate wouldn't be bullied....

[Sep 30, 2018] RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 27 SEPTEMBER 2018 (By Patrick Armstrong)

Sep 30, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

... ... ...

MH17. Russia was immediately blamed and it's been a fact-free Gish gallop since then: flight routes changed retroactively , sudden discoveries of "evidence" defying the laws of physics , faked up intercepts , a potential suspect gets a veto but the owners of the airplane are shut out , blame Russia before the inquiry is finished , no sign of Kerry's promised data but "social media and common sense" instead, radars switched off , damage ignored when it doesn't fit the story .

But, finally, a mistake: the Ukrainians came up with a fact .

Missile parts have serial numbers, those serial numbers are recorded in logbooks, logbooks exist and the numbers can be looked up . Those parts were from a Buk missile supplied to a Soviet AD unit in the Ukrainian SSR in 1986 and the missile remained there when the USSR broke up.

Oh, and Bellingcat's favourite video is a fake .

Conclusions:

1) that particular missile had nothing to do with MH17;

2) the Ukrainians shot MH17 down either on purpose or by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ).

But let's gallop round the fact-free track again .

[Sep 27, 2018] The BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense

Sep 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

TJ , Sep 26, 2018 1:25:05 PM | link

THE BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense on the 6PM main news, BBC story

To me the ears look very different in the 2 pictures presented.

Den Lille Abe , Sep 26, 2018 2:07:56 PM | link

Bellingcat is MI6, so what do you expect.

[Sep 25, 2018] RUSSIAN MH17 BRIEFING by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments ..."
"... The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database. The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers. ..."
"... So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian. ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

mourjou , 5 days ago

How difficult would it be for the SBU to paint a Ukrainian BUK launcher to look exactly like a Russian one and drive it round Ukraine for a while stopping long enough every now and then for members of the public to take photos of it and post them on social media. Unless the MH17 investigation can produce photos of the alleged BUK launcher crossing into Russia, the authenticity of the photos can and should be questioned.

The really important question is still why were commercial airliners allowed to fly over Ukrainian airspace in the east when it was clearly known that heavy SAM launchers were active and at least one high-flying aircraft had already been shot down?

RaisingMac -> mourjou , 4 days ago
There was also a rumor going around that MH17's original route was over the Black Sea, but that Kiev ATC had them alter their path in mid-flight to go over Donbass, supposedly because of inclement weather. If so, very suspicious.
PRC90 -> mourjou , 5 days ago
Qantas ceased flying those routes months before MH17 solely on the basis that medium range SAMs were in the ORBAT of at least one of the combatants.

The airspace is owned by Ukraine who collects air navigation charges from overflying aircraft, hence there would have been a financial incentive to keep accepting flight plans for those routes.

PRC90 , 5 days ago
Tech equipment like this usually has two types of logbook. One is the daily serviceability log signed off after each functional test and inspection, and kept with the equipment, and the other is a set of maintenance logs for each system within the (eg.) missile. The latter would be held at the higher echelon maintenance facility waiting for the thing to come home and get fixed or overhauled.

If the Russians gave the munition to the Ukrainians as a permanent allocation, they would have kept basic details but would have given the maintenance books en masse to the Ukrainians due to the weight and volume of these in paper format. They would still have enough to ID what they actually sold or gave away.

Fred -> PRC90 , 5 days ago
The article by Pepe Escobar in Asia Times quotes the Russian MOD, which links the manufacturing serial number of two engine components back to the site of manufacturing and then tracks that forward into the final assembly - the missile. Then the Russians track the missile to the unit it was assigned to in Ukraine.

"So now we know, via declassified files, that the engine of the missile 9D131 allegedly had the serial number 8869032. And a "passport" for the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 carried the number 8-30-113. The actual missile number was 886847349, they said."

http://www.atimes.com/artic...

Snow Flake -> Fred , 3 days ago
I guess I should add it wasn't exactly exactly excitement that made me comment twice. But ... technical ...

I did correct one of those two comments. ... Once the first showed up. Incidentally after the second. I regret this now. Somewhat.

Had no sound initially. Interestingly the Russian version works even without it. Somehow.

my initial question circled around this statement.

2. The videos are fake. The sightline evidence is, to my mind,
apodictic. I've seen other arguments that they are fake but these are
the most convincing. (I do like the backwards driving TEL).

.... That I surely didn't understand without sound. Or maybe not to the extend I would have liked.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Check Patrick's linked video: "Russian MoD briefing". About 26 min in. But I like the video's slowness. Did the JIT seriously use that type of open source "evidence" too? Hard to believe. As hard to believe as the enormous success of its founder? Who even made it into our news for a short time as British expert.

Concerning Pepe, I was pleased about this:

Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group, allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group , allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

I thought that's exactly what they do in Patrick's Russian visual evidence video link above starting around 26 minutes into. Made me look up his site: its English, French, Russian by now. ;)

thanks for the link.

PRC90 -> Fred , 5 days ago
Yes, that's the original manufacturer's data, and given the manufacture date's proximity to the transfer date it looks like the munitions were made specifically for a Ukraine order, which may indicate sequential serial numbers across the batch.

The actual maintenance document bundle would disclose if any internal serial numbered systems were swapped out for newer Russian hardware after 1986 during the days of Rus-Ukraine brotherly love. This would have a higher chance of occurring if the entire SAM system was on a Russian maintenance contract, however .. I think not because the Ukr's had plenty of rocket expertise and I suggest they kept the lot, maintenance document and all.

It's up to the Ukr's to produce evidence of what they say the do not have.

Michael , 5 days ago
The "cui bono" is the first thing to investigate. Russia had none. Ukrainian had plenty of obvious one at that.

In fact shortly after the tragedy I was contacted by The saker francophone to developp some argument about this. Note that it was before this francophone site was re-structured. My research focused on the Buck and their presence in Ukraine vast left-over of the URSS echelon strategy storage... with scarcely any maintenance.

Then I focused on the proximity fuse system (a US invention from WWII, which in fact started the first electronic industry), short wawes sent and received, complicated set-up and involving springs to actually trigger the explosion.
Optimal distance was 15 to 50 meters , explosion from little above and missile coming from front (not to be on pursuit mode).

My hypothesis still is that the Buck was pre-1991 era and not very well maintained, that the explosion did occur a little prematurely, killing the crew, causing extensive damages, but not actually destroying the plane capacity to fly

There enter the phantom Ukrainian hunter jet giving the "coup de grace". And this could explain the round entry holes, with on the same picture (left door of the cockpit) exit holes.

Russian defense Ministry was not fully affirmative of the presence of this fighter jet, but was fully positive on 3 buck systems with active radar (acquisition range 140 kilometers, that's 9 minutes to get ready).

The story of the pilot, there are some testimony at his landing, about a rather livid and upset fellow, he did divorce and commit suicide. What this is worse, I don't know.

note: for other reasons I did stop very fast collaborating wit the Saker Francophone.

Peter Williams , 5 days ago
Well the Brits keep such detailed notes of their weaponry. About 30 years ago I had the inner cocking lever of a Bofors 40/60 break, and within a few days we had all the documentation of its manufacture in Britain during WWII - names of the factory, the machinist, heat treating and quality inspection. All that for one small part of the breech block. You can guarantee that the Soviets would be just as methodical about a significant item like a missile.
Patrick Armstrong , 6 days ago
The photo is too tiny, but if you click on it it opens to a better size.
Ulenspiegel , 4 days ago
"Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments."

You still ignore the fact that even now the Russian admit that a BUG brought down the airplane. It was the Russian side which produced a lot of ridiculous statements (ground attack plane with limited service height was launching platform), faked internet sites (SU25) and then quite silently, when the official investigation of the debris of the PLANE could not longer be ignored, admitted that it was a BUG.

BTW: Experts were already a few days after the incident able to conclude that a ground based system must very likely be the culprit, simply by analyzing the many hundred photos of the plan fragments. It was clear that a very high density of fragments were in the front section, while missiles launched by airplanes would have caused damage in other sections (esp. wings around engines).

Patrick Armstrong -> Ulenspiegel , 3 days ago
Google is your friend Play Hide
Michael -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
The Buck system is composed of 3 vehicles one is for the long range acquisition radar. The missile does have an in-build acquisition radar but with a 35 miles range. The idea, and Bellingcat pictures supporting it, of a lonely lorry with a missing missile, was ridiculous.

While typing i get confused and have edited: it was a picture of the left side cockpit, and it did show round entrance holes and rugged exit. An ex German pilot was positive it was gun amo marks.

Yes I did read your piece in Russia Insider the day it was published. Thanks for your work.

Max van der Werff , 3 days ago
Telar driving backwards is incorrect. Russian MoD mistakenly took route presented by JIT as correct. View Hide
Prince Monolulu , 3 days ago
ELINT, and what we have not been told about, it is the key here.

The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database.
The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers.

So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian.

Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Petri Krohn is unconvinced by the vanishing point argument pointing out that the Buk TEL does not sit flat on the trailer.

Yes, there seems to be something beneath the Buk-Tel, whatever it is. There are other trailer images that don't have this thing underneath. One can see it better in the video. Who is Petri Krohn?

What puzzles me me more are the "the truck's (blue)" lines. Why would you take the back of the cabin? Vs the sides as with the Buk-Tel on the trailer to make your point? For special effect? Heighten the difference to earlier neatly converging vanishing points?

Last but not least in that specific shot there is a slightly complicating camera angle. The shot is a bit sideways from the driving car. Which does not quite fit into the earlier continual straight ahead pattern.

But yes, the JIP did its best in impressive visualization too. See video below.
*******
Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster/Narrative conference 24 May 2018. The precise numbers are given here for the first time? Publicly? Pressure on the Russian. After all one has a lot more evidence one does not show we are told. From that perspective the response is not bad. See first video linked below.

So now we have new offer for the so far main suspect, the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, we are offered to look into the Ukrainian 223 Tereboylya Anti-Aircraft Brigade, now stationed in Stryi. The earlier Russian military unit 20152.

https://www.om.nl/onderwerp...

Here comes the more entertaining earlier version of the Public Prosecutors Service collection. There is more. Anyway, I vaguely remember this one. A visually coherent narrative for easy public consumption. It feels this was centrally challenged.

Play Hide
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
Patrick,

Re my earlier comment, the JIT info request seemed a bit odd. You'd think they would have access to Russians who could give them chapter and verse on what these numbers mean. Any thoughts?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
I haven't changed my position from this https://patrickarmstrong.ca...
Leaving the port engine intake out is all I need to convince me that it's just part of the anti-Russia war
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
Yes, I read your article at the time and again just now. It still makes sense to me.

Presumably the warhead on this missile identified by the MoD was of the older "non bow-tie" type (as per AA)? If so, it's all starting to look a bit like a QED, is it not?

Right from the beginning I wondered if Russia would have captured enough data to know what happened. Is that how you see it and if so, how do you rate the odds that Russia has been playing an incredibly long game on this one?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
We'd all like to wish they were but my thinking is that only when the numbers appeared were they able to have an actual FACT on which they could work. All the accusations against Moscow are simple assertions with no facts you can get your teeth into. Finally the Ukes were stupid enough to present a fact.
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 4 days ago
Yes.

So are you also suggesting that whatever evidence the Russians collected at the time of the incident wasn't incontrovertible enough to overcome what would be the automatic Western presumption that it must be faked?

In other words, while the Russians may know what happened they were previously unable to prove it to the satisfaction of a sceptical audience?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
2 days after View Hide
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
Indeed, although not quite what I meant by "sceptical audience"!
Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
You're not suggesting that I think that the JIT is anything other than a coverup, are you?
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
No, not at all.
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
It's almost amusing. At the JIT May 24 update briefing, Politie.nl reported that the following request for information was made:

"Jennifer Hurst, Commander of the Australian Federal Police, explained, on the basis of an animation that the JIT urges the public to think about answering three specific questions about both rocket components found on the crash site.

Do you recognize the handwriting of the number on the venturi? Do you have information about the numbers on the venturi and the casing? Or do you know anyone who knows about the meaning of those numbers? Are you or do you know someone with information about the missile in which these parts have been placed and to which unit this missile was delivered?

Hurst: "If you have an answer to one or more of these questions, then we urgently ask you to contact the JIT.'"

So it's just the Russian MoD being a good citizen . . .

P.S. At the same briefing the JIT noted they couldn't be certain these missile fragments belonged to the one that brought down MH 17. That caveat aside, however, this does seem a rather comprehensive response from Russia.

Snow Flake -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
Ingolf, they even offer witness protections programs.
Ingolf Eide -> Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Wonderful. No takers I assume?
PRC90 -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
Will we ever see the chain-of-custody record of these items ?

It would also be interesting to hear from (ex) tech intel exploitation people who have been out and about scavenging up bits of expended rocket case in the past, if in their experience the case displayed here should have been more deformed by it's terminal velocity (80 meters/second ?) impact with the ground.

Ingolf Eide -> PRC90 , 3 days ago
PRC90,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I didn't, and still don't, have a useful response to either of those questions.

[Sep 23, 2018] I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 except the suspicion the Malaysia was also a target(may be due to the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal) and choice of Dutch was instrumental in the cover-up.

Official investigation looks more and more like 911 commission or JFK assassination commission. Powerful state via their intelligence agencies now have tremendous capabilities to hide even most egregious crimes and block any objective investigation for many years, if not forever.
After so many years the discussion of MH17 still revolves about establishing the basic facts. Especially facts that were ignored by official investigation. such as shelling the area by Ukrainian forces after the crash, or too quick launch of "highly likely" campaign by Western MSM (which now can be viewed as a strong suggestion that we deal with a false flag operation like was the case with Litvinenko poisoning and Skripal poisoning ). Why the flight path of MH17 was changes and differ from previous days also remain unclear (previous days they flue over Azov sea) . Why Ukrainian air defense units was deployed in the area and were active that day is also unclear. Rebels did not have any ir force. Visit of Brennan under fake name to Ukraine is another interesting part of the story. And there are many questions like that.
The question of "que bono" is also an interesting one. As is the question why false flag operation often happen when there are some maneuvers in the area like was the case with 811 and Skripal cases (and there were NATO maneuvers in Ukrainian airspace). As one commenter aptly observed " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "
Russia behaviour creates several questions as well: for example recent revelation of the serial number of the Buk rocket (which so far did not leave any trace in the air that we can refer too in pretty densely populated area). I saw horizontal trances of fragments that hit airliner, which suggests air-to-air attack. There were phone of the part of the wing with horizontal trace of the elements.
The stories about Ukraine Su-24 pilot who later committed suicide as well as about role of oligarch Kolomoychenko also do not fit into official version. None of them testifies before the commission, which signify the absence of the desire of the commission to gather facts that might contradict predefined outcome.
As the USA refused to provide any evidence and Ukrainian authorities hide their evidence we also have another "plausible" signs of a false flag operation directed on introduction of sanctions against Russia.
In any case the following discussion is pretty educational as it rehashes many argument for "Russian did not do it" point of view on this tragic accident.
Notable quotes:
"... The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. ..."
"... " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. " ..."
"... One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′. ..."
"... I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation. ..."
"... Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds. ..."
"... At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia". ..."
"... At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing. ..."
"... Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. ..."
"... At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft. ..."
"... "In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?" ..."
"... As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial). ..."
"... The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on. ..."
"... That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty. ..."
"... The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness. ..."
"... Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

ALCvA , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT

I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law. In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq. In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague. In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

Kees van der Pijl , says: • Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMT
@ALCvA I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMT
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "

The key sentence. Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France. This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.

Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.

It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda. Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts. One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ? Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz

Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/ showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Of course this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17

Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply

Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply

Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply

"International relations" is not a science.

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July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. " A weird compelling case.

They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it. Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.

I am not in the least convinced. The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions. About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.

But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide. If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.

If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done. But a BUK flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ? All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

Tom Welsh , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMT
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"

That is extremely puzzling -- indeed, inexplicable -- if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.

As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising -- it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.

Baron , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:30 pm GMT
An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

On the MH17:

Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgment on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:47 pm GMT
Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.
Mike P , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:49 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the Ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.
Mr. Hack , says: July 9, 2018 at 1:05 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Wizard of Oz , says: July 9, 2018 at 2:47 pm GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here. Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn't even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:03 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them, as they don't have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:48 pm GMT
The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin "ordered" the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.
Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:49 pm GMT
I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal activity to Assange. BTW, that "investigation" already lasts for two years, with no end in sight. Quite natural when the fox "investigates" its own depredations in the hen house.

However, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the "official" narrative pushed by the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.

1. This "investigation" is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered. Judging by its length and meager results, this "investigation" is simply a cover-up, pretty clumsy at that.

2. If one discards the "evidence" from social media, which any self-respecting court of law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund "Bellingcat" are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.

3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary chain of custody was not observed.

4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single witness reported seeing that. Why?

5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?

6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never presented in four years. Why?

7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot's cabin, visible on many photos, that looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored. BBC video was removed from their site. Why?

8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent "conclusion" of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this "conclusion". Curious, no?

Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won't explain their actions, though, as they don't want to anger very influential forces pushing a different narrative.

To summarize, Roman dictum "cui bono" is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the perpetrators.

FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:20 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked? You're confusing things here

The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire [incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]

The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey

Specifically the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead

They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1

Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead

Here is the DSB final report of October 2015

On page 132 we have this

' it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile '

There is the problem right there The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38′

The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey the right shows the response of the DSB which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source page 132

' According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead '

So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source

And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry

In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are

And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years having been long ago replaced by updated versions

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMT
I would not trust neither the dutchies nor the ukrobanderisti in anything .
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage. No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
@Tulips I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given? It was ordered to fly lower.
This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
As far as I know no explanation was ever given
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:49 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'

Again you are garbling known facts there was never any Russian 'satellite photo' it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time

The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues' apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:00 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.
In this case, my estimate, twenty You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:19 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. Ed there is nothing we can 'analyze' from a distance that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous 'Bellingcat'

The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels to the West which they probably should not have done considering that they end up getting blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands

The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations the first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules and we would presume it is professional you will note that they did not try to establish who fired the shot [or shots]

That is what the ICAO rules state the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future

The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke actually citing Bellingcat social media 'pictures' and such as 'evidence'

There is nothing that can be done about that it is clearly a kangaroo court

However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too I have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies in all honesty, I would say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the findings are whaat they say they are

But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here to really find out what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone those actual pieces need to be expertly examined

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:28 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. I am not sure how many "accidental" deaths or "murders in the course of botched robbery" (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.

I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I'd love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.

republic , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:43 pm GMT
In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

I wonder why this purge is taking place?

Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice.

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMT
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/09/who-was-stepan-bandera/

Those guys blew up the plain , and are trying to blow up everything

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 1:11 am GMT
@Anonymous Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.

As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,

This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down

As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route -- which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia -- for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

-- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:29 am GMT
@FKA Max

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,...
This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down


As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route - which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia - for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9EWwNbSVE

This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:

Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of 'Buk missile unit'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw

BREAKING - MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sviL113eOU

MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb9Axg4DaeY

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :

PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .

Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We -- those with properly functioning intellects -- know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

Leave a comment

Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17

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Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

Vojkan , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:50 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
@jilles dykstra It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.

"MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the 'optimum' altitude," the airline said.
"However, an aircraft's altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet."

( https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mh17-requested-higher-flight-altitude-from-ukranian-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines-30442304.html ] rgds

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

1. Der.

2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'

3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

4.

An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'

Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMT
there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine -- in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.

When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

republic , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:56 pm GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non July 10, 2018 at 4:59 pm GMT

@Wizard of Oz We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn't leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.
AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:12 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.
The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after sanctions were allowed.
The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never been asked, not even now.
As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was shot down. You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.
denk , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
How it all began .

2005, as per the Guardian
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, '

2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners.

mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air .

[tip of an iceberg]

From these facts alone,

Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once .
one stone killing three birds ?

Elementary, Watson !

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:56 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard - not a good look if one doesn't want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.

Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There's your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).

As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn't the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.

** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)

' Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun '

Sure thing, Perry Mason LOL btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest' nice work

For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon

Here's what that BBC article you linked to says

' The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day -- 160 planes flew over the region '

Now here is the rest of the story for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day a region more than half the size of Germany only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area

Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country

Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV] comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]

Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk

Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it

The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic

Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations

The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity

So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route ie airway L980 big difference

Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything

Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south

There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft] and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman

As for our friend Wizard may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:04 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz "Simple(st) solution"!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done - surely for certain - what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?

You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee. Life is simple. "Cui bono" is the key. The rest is hot air.

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:43 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement ?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17 '

Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever

And just to put this in perspective the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt' not from Russian sats

So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false

As for Higgins and Bellingcat we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon an 'idiot'

also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol

Hmm interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:55 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
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vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
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sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university

' showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot' talk about chutzpah

Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight' yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread pretty pathetic

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:07 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. "If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive."
-- let's try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
The author wrote: "Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure."
The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
'"All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei.
This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach -- "Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths" -- to international law and the judicial system at large.
The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible criminal acts of Ukrainians?
Why has an expert in selling the ladies' underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King's College London admire the ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, " the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase "

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:15 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

' Nothing to do with radar '

Sorry kid like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned

This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said here is a Dutch news report from 2017

And the google translation from the Dutch

' Kiev -- Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

"More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.

Russia had handed over the data -- shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight '

I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:16 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

is this you, Mr. Elliot Higgins?
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:31 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:37 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum...In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia's Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:
Yes No Undecided
2009 67% 1 5% 18%
2010 66% 9% 25%
2011 66% 14 % 20%
Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997
annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. Since when the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"

http://redpilltimes.com/leaked-email-by-dutch-diplomat-on-mh17-says-separatists-do-not-have-ability-to-take-down-a-plane-kolomoisky-being-set-up-for-fall/

https://nodisinfo.com/hacked-emails-prove-zionist-ihor-kolomoiskly-mh17/

https://southfrontdutch.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/de-man-achter-mh17-ihor-kolomoyskyi/

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:53 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here "the highest sources from the Russian Federation".

I have answered this above. You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:59 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.
Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:15 pm GMT

petitio principii fallacy?

hey lizard,

are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?

or,

are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its expansion?

And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about 'assassinated journalists' and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a temper tantrum.

Yes? No?

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:16 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz You seem to be clever enough when you try hard... Do you understand why I say your use of "cui bono" is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy? The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.
FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.

If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level - or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine "I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us".Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).

If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so - or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?

' If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000 '

You have that completely backwards it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off

The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330 the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]

The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there

There is nothing unusual about any of this ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude

[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]

Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine not 'six or seven'

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMT
@skrik

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :


PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We - those with properly functioning intellects - know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

-- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:

All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting

-- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:53 pm GMT
@Anon OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if anyone bothered), partisan guff? "tendentious, highly contestable, partisan "
Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was "highly contestable" and "partisan?"
1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? -- Try!
2. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about this quote? -- "All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol Nidrei "was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year. In "modern" Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the commencement of Judaism's holiest yearly event of Passover."
3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly insists?
4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/&#8211 ; What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about the US refusal to provide the evidence?
5. What is "highly contes