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Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 ?
Notes on propaganda war around the tragedy

Facts? Who needs facts when your task is hysterical scapegoating to promote neoliberal agenda. Thus MSM coverage of the incident became a classic "kangaroo court"

High resolution version of this picture that contains round holes in it is available from http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf

More photos at Flickr Jeroen Akkermans RTL News Berlin's Photostream

News The Far Right Forces in Ukraine Recommended Links Some technical characteristics of SU-25 relevant to MH17 tragedy

BUK air defense system

Why air space over Donetsk province was not closed

July 17-19 Week of July 20-26 Week of July 27- Aug 2 Week of Aug 3-9 Week of Aug 10-16 Week of Aug 17-23
Resurgence of ideology of neo-fascism EuroMaidan 101 To whom EuroMaidan Sharp-shooters belong? Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014 Mariupol, May 9 events Totalitarian Decisionism & Human Rights: The Re-emergence of Nazi Law
Provisional government Fifth column Suppression of Russian language and culture in Ukraine Ukraine's oligarchs Ukraine as a Cleft country: an easy target for color revolution Russian Ukrainian Gas wars
Events of November 30 and aftermath SBU raid on Kiev Batkivshchina office Revolt of diplomats Nulandgate EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis Inside "democracy promotion" hypocrisy fair
Neoliberal Propaganda The Guardian Slips Beyond the Reach of Embarrassment Fighting Russophobia Foreign Agents Registration Act Russian Fifth column Humor Etc

"Process in which the mechanisms of projection or displacement are utilized in focusing feelings of aggression, hostility, frustration, etc., upon another individual or group; the amount of blame being unwarranted."

A definition of scapegoating[2]

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed... Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it... The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one... What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.

Adolf Hitler

 

 


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[Oct 20, 2018] Looks like we are living in Matrix environment

The power of propaganda is such that it is able to create the artificial reality in which Western citizen live. Right out of the Matrix ;-)
As jilles dykstra noted: "The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show."
Notable quotes:
"... Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections. ..."
"... The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen. ..."
Oct 20, 2018 | www.unz.com

Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. The commission refused Russians access to its findings; this unfair dealing would force any intelligence service in the world to try and learn what had been found.

Not that it was of any use. The Dutch commission indeed found out the numbers of the missile that destroyed the jet; the Russians went through their documents and proved that this particular missile had been delivered to the Ukraine (when it was a Soviet republic) and remained there. A scoop! Now we know what happened with the jet – it was destroyed by the Ukrainians, presumably by mistake, like they downed another Russian airliner . However, the Western media ignored this scoop altogether. They decided to blame the crash on the Russians, and so they did to the end. Even if Russian intelligence were to find and deliver to the Hague the Ukrainian soldiers who operated the missile launcher, the Dutch, as loyal NATO members, would look other way.

This already happened regarding Syrian chemical attacks – the Russians and the Syrians delivered the very kids who unwillingly participated in the White Helmets' staged and filmed 'attack, directly to the OPCW. It was of no use. These guys are not after truth, they are just repeating the narrative they learned by rote.

Still, Russian intelligence worth of its name would be expected to try and obtain maximum findings in order to help the government to clear Russia's name of unjust accusations. There revelations of Russian activity weren't particularly dangerous or vicious. But while this subject had been discussed, a very painful and distressing development had been revealed.

The Western intelligence services have achieved incredible knowledge of whatever happens in Russia. They have obtained extensive databases of Russian everyday life from traffic violations and fines to passport scans, from residence registration to taxi requests, from messenger chats to emails, allowing them to trace persons and events in Russia with uncanny precision.

Many databases had been stolen and sold by small-time crooks; Western intelligences had made a concentrated effort to buy whatever is available on the black market; some bases were stolen and sold for crypto-currencies on the deep internet.

The most valuable databases had been sold by the crooks and/or traitors, while the Information Security Centre of FSB (ЦИБ ФСБ) led by colonel Sergei Mikhailov who is now being tried for the high treason, did nothing to stop the leak.

jilles dykstra , says: October 20, 2018 at 7:23 am GMT

" Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. "

How ?

Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections.

If it was an accident, a very lucky one, hitting a plane coming from Amsterdam.

The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen.

[Oct 18, 2018] Lavrov Accuses Bellingcat of Serving Western Intelligence

Oct 18, 2018 | themoscowtimes.com

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/moscow-accuses-bellingcat-serving-western-intelligence-63212):

".......Russia's foreign minister has accused the open-source Bellingcat investigative team of acting as a front for Western intelligence services seeking to manipulate public opinion.

Bellingcat has played a leading role in identifying the alleged names of two men accused of trying to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain this year. It has previously published investigations that reportedly link Russia to the downing of flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine and suspected chemical attacks in Syria.

"It's no secret to anyone, Western journalists write openly that Bellingcat is connected to special services," Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Euronews on Tuesday.

"They leak information through it to have some effect on public opinion," he said......."

[Oct 12, 2018] Sic Semper Tyrannis RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 11 OCTOBER 2018 by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat . Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning .)


Araminta Smade , 16 hours ago

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat. Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning.)

To those of you who are like myself deeply sceptical about this story can I recommend this article in the UK Independent newspaper.

We should be asking for answers about the Skripals and Bellingcat – and not just from Russia. Mary Dejevsky.

https://www.independent.co....

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

FB -> Snow Flake , an hour ago
I think some people here are actually taking Eliott Higgins far too seriously...he is still an uneducated underwear salesman...and acts like it...case in point his recent twitter outburst at Ted Postol, calling him an 'idiot'...that just shows what a substance free clown this guy is...

I briefly looked at that blog article linked to by snowflake and it is basically verbal diarrhea...bottom line is that Higgins and that Bellincat 'outfit' are best simply ignored...not worth the time or mental bandwidth to even think about...

smoothieX12 . -> Snow Flake , 2 hours ago
Atlantic Council has a very great Ph.D consultant, and strategists' strategist and tacticians' tactician, Dr. Blank. He, of all places, taught in US Army War College. He taught, of course, about Russia, since he has Ph.D in Soviet/Russian "history" or whatever passes as such in US "Russian Studies" field.

http://www.wikistrat.com/ex...

His strategic concepts are so devoid of even basic high school level knowledge of Russia (and her geography, BTW) that one is forced to ask how is it even possible to have this kind of "experts"? Among many outlandish ideas Dr. Blank proposed in his academic career dedicated to fighting evil Russians was to send US Navy to the Azov Sea to demonstrate the US Naval might.

http://www.atlanticcouncil....

This was one of the most profound facepalm moments of my life--I mean it. Not only Dr. Blank has no clue about Russia, he also has no clue about US Navy. Yet, he is an expert, alright.

TTG , 19 hours ago
You left the best part out of that State Department policy statement. He announced a new position, the Senior Advisor for Russian Malign Activities and Trends or SARMAT for short. That's straight out of the axis of evil mindset. How can we have a sober and productive policy towards Russia with crap like this?
PRC90 -> TTG , 8 hours ago
I thought that was from Duffleblog but you're right: https://www.state.gov/p/eur...
Third para from the bottom. Part of that $380 million must be Bellingcat's budget.
Timothy Hagios -> TTG , 9 hours ago
I can't wait to see what awful person is selected for this role. Also, Sarmat is also the name for Russia's newest ICBM, which makes one wonder what was on the back of their minds when they came up with this one.
ted richard , 4 hours ago
washingtons foreign policy visa vie russia and china is as yet unable to reach the psychological stage of sublimation. frustrated, angry and demoralised that they can not militarily atttack russia once and for all putting paid ....to who is the biggest dog in the yard...... american elites lash out ineffectually using various media, economic and financial games to assuage their inability to get their way.

each iteration of this plan becomes weaker and less effective than the previous one leading to more rage at being thwarted.

where the current crop of american ruling elites are concerned we are talking about 2 factors.... a profound lack of a really good cosmopolitan education and a near total lack of appreciation for how weak the american industrial base has become the past 30 years (you can not intimidate powerful nations if your military technology is 1 or more generations BEHIND)

an apt understanding of washingtons dilemma is best grasped reading the kubler-ross stages of grieving over a dying loved one. in this case the dying loved one is american exceptionalism and the l godlike power that goes with it for the 1/100 or 1%.

its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting.

[Oct 12, 2018] Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

Notable quotes:
"... Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Red Ryder , Oct 11, 2018 5:13:17 PM | link

Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

"Highly Likely" Iran had a hand in it also. Judas was a 'Persian', of course, and would have been a Shiite if he hadn't been suicidal and lived another 800 years or so.

Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned.

[Oct 12, 2018] Austraia is staunch member of five eyes and that shows.

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Oct 12, 2018 5:34:22 AM | link

Official propaganda here in oz.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-11/bellingcat-probing-whether-russian-spies-compromised-mh17-probe/10362090
The Malaysian's remarks surprised observers. At a parliamentary hearing in Canberra, foreign affairs legal officer James Larsen was asked whether Russia was directly in the frame for the atrocity.

"Australia believes there is conclusive evidence," he said.

Mr Loke's remarks also caught the attention of Christo Grozev, an investigator with Bellingcat, a London-based reporting website that has recently dragged several of Russia's covert disruptions into the light.

It was a "surprising dissension", he said. Malaysia was the "only country that did not fully endorse the findings of the joint investigation team".

In an interview with the ABC, Mr Grozev said Bellingcat was now actively probing whether Russia had played a role in this public display of disunity.

The team's "working hypothesis", he said, was that the entire Malaysian contingent, or one member of it, had been compromised by Russia's spies.
.......

Col from OZ , Oct 12, 2018 6:47:57 AM | link

32 Peter keep up the good work! Ukraine IS RESPONSIBLY for MH17. I am of the opinion it was premeditated too.

[Oct 12, 2018] It no longer possible to hide the fact that Bellingcat is a propaganda operation financed by intelligence againcies, not that different from White Helmetss

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

jsb , Oct 11, 2018 6:00:34 PM | link

@Red Ryder (14)

Even Bellingcat beginning to be outed by the Independent

not seen till now though is any questioning of Bellingcat's credentials in mainstream media. So let me hand you over, without further ado and with hearty if surprised approval, to Mary Dejevsky: not known as a Kremlin stooge or Putin troll. Yet here she is, in today's Independent, asking in all sincerity and with admirable bluntness just WTF is Bellingcat?

[Oct 11, 2018] Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back.

Oct 11, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:40 pm

Bellingcat exclusive!!!!!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Gosh!

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:41 pm
Bum link again!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Mark Chapman October 8, 2018 at 8:02 pm
Where would we be without solid, honest citizen journalism like this? Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back. In fact, we have not heard Peep One from any of them since Bellingcat burst on the scene, and the British press goes straight to print from its reports, to hell with waiting for informed comment from the intelligence services or law enforcement.

Come to think about it, what are their countries paying them for?

Cortes October 8, 2018 at 11:15 pm
I'm looking forward to the first Bellingcat spin-offs.

Eliot Higgins – Special Invesigator featuring Tom Cruise and introducing Sparky his lovable mongrel dog which miraculously survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre and can sniff out GRU agents a mile away.

Jen October 9, 2018 at 8:35 pm
How Sparky the lovable mongrel dog survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre:

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/881477/505e84f8-9835-4ab0-9a12-1d7ea375c032/orig

His weaknesses are sniffing power pylons and swallowing batteries.

Cortes October 9, 2018 at 11:41 pm
Excellent!
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:08 am
And following temporary employment reviewing orders at a Leicester UK women's underwear manufacturer, the unemployed Higgins then "dispensed with looking for another job so that he could devote himself to blogging full-time" and has now pogressed to being a senior fellow in the "Digital Forensic Research Laboratory" and the "Future Europe Initiative", projects run by the Washington, D.C based "think tank" the "Atlantic Council".


Higgins hard at work researching

A "kept man"? His wife must bring home the bacon then.

Well, she would if she were not a Turk.

The then 32-year-old Higgins started blogging about the civil war in Syria from his home as Brown Moses: "He had no formal intelligence training or security clearance that gave him access to classified documents. He could not speak or read Arabic. He had never set foot in the Middle East, unless you count the time he changed planes in Dubai en route to Manila, or his trip to visit his in-laws in Turkey".

As far as I am aware, he still has no credentials for his chosen field, albeit he is now a "fellow" of this and that. He has also since bursting into the bloggosphere considerably put on weight:

Higgins belongs to an obsessive coterie of self-appointed military intelligence experts who use social media to piece together critical details of faraway conflicts, often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex, these amateur analysts have honed a novel set of sleuthing skills that fuse old-fashioned detective work with new sources of intelligence generated by cell phone cameras and spread by social networks. Syria's war, widely considered the most documented conflict in history, has turned social media into a weapon of mass detection -- critical both for fighters on the ground and for faraway observers trying to make sense of the conflict.

The mind boggles: he and his fellow "amateur analysts" are often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex !!!

See: Inside The One-Man Intelligence Unit That Exposed The Secrets And Atrocities Of Syria's War , by Bianca Boscar.

Bianca Bosker is the Executive Tech Editor of the Huffington Post.

Well who'd a-thowt!

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:11 am
And Higgins is also an unabashed liar:

Eliot Higgins,: "I've not received funding from NED. Stop reading conspiracy websites"

Also Eliot Higgins "Bellingcat has received money from NED"

#BellingCrap #lieslieslies #UnderwearSalesman #CarpetSlippers pic.twitter.com/VvciGlaTtw

-- Emma (@emmadefano1) September 29, 2018

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:29 pm
Once upon a time, nobody would dare to do what they are doing because of the danger of a ruinous lawsuit. But so long as he continues accusing the right people, the west will safeguard him from that as best it can. Maybe that's the way to go. They've left themselves without a retreat, saying this and that are 'confirmed'. Sue the outfit.
Jen October 8, 2018 at 9:05 pm
Bum link again? well it's Bellingcrap, what else could it be but a bum link?
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 12:43 am
And now avidly reported by the British government organ, the "independent", non-Westminster-contolled BBC:

Skripal attack: Second Russian Salisbury suspect named

At least the BBC labels "Dr. Mishkin" as a "suspect"..

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:06 am
Note how Bellingtwat states that it has "conclusively" established the real identity of Petrov on evidence gleaned from "multiple open sources" and "testimony from people familiar with the person" in question.

How do they do this?

First to the post again and well ahead of all the Western intelligence agencies, which are obviously understaffed with incompetents and not in possession of state-of-the-art means of gathering intelligence such as . errrr, Facebook?

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:10 am

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:41 am

I'm sick of Western European shite in general.

A few days ago, that lying old slag May appeared on stage at the Conservative Party annual conference with Abba's "Dancing Queen" playing in the bacground. May appeared to be trying to dance to the Abba hit. What a cupid old stunt!

And yesterday at an EUSSR Brussels conference, EU chief-executive and piss-artist Juncker appears to have been possibly trying to take the piss out of that old, lying bag May's gyrations:

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:25 pm
Dear God. She gives new meaning to 'wooden', and makes Pinocchio look like he was made of quicksilver.
Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:09 am
Yes, their resources really do beat all, don't they? Able to trawl through Russians' private records at will, even those ominously marked, "Not for public release". But then, they have lots of willing helpers inside Russia, which the western intelligence agencies officially have not. Makes you wonder how Russia can miss catching them, innit, considering the intertubes are strictly controlled in Russia and all their intelligence transactions are in the public domain? I mean, with their troll farms and all their snoopy organizations?
Jen October 9, 2018 at 3:46 am
Bellingcrap could have just mentioned its sources during the course of its article instead of proclaiming that it's going to detail in another post to be supposedly published today (9 October 2018) the methodology it and The Insider Russia used and the information trail established. Perhaps a sign that Bellingcrap is starting to feel some pressure to lift its game to a level acceptable to its masters at The Atlantic Council?
kirill October 9, 2018 at 8:16 pm
I guess the belled cat thinks he's immune from some "GRU" hit. LOL.
et Al October 9, 2018 at 2:32 am
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. BellEndCat can only manage the former. Still, it's good enough for the BBC who this morning spoke to a (former?) Georgian minister who was saying that if the West was united and stopped Russia from invading Georgia in 2008, then Ukraine, Crimea, Skripals etc. wouldn't have happened, followed by BBC correspondent Norton who said that 'was about right'.
cartman October 9, 2018 at 10:14 am
Don't forget that Bellingcat is linked to the Stasi:

Forgot about this: Der Spiegel outed Bellingcat analyst as former full-time Stasi goon. https://t.co/kfB69NuQ6N

-- Yasha Levine (@yashalevine) October 9, 2018

[Oct 08, 2018] The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

Oct 08, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Alfred (Cairns) , Oct 6, 2018 8:01:38 PM | link

The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

"MH17 -- DUTCH PREPARE MISSILE ATTACK ON MOSCOW"

http://johnhelmer.net/mh-17-dutch-prepare-missile-attack-on-moscow/

I hope their nationalists get back control of their own government before too long.

Here is a typical piece of nonsense inspired by fear of democracy. There is definitely a panic in the works.

"The New Dutch Disease Is White Nationalism: An upstart far-right party in the Netherlands threatens to entrench xenophobia in one of Europe's most progressive countries. "

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/20/the-new-dutch-disease-is-white-nationalism/

psychohistorian , Oct 7, 2018 2:05:57 AM | link
Below is a link to a posting by Eric Zuesse writing that Ukraine is now the attempted flash point for WWIII

US Switching to Ukraine as Location to Start World War III Against Russia

I continue to believe that China has made it quite clear to the US that any nukes headed to Russia will be presumed aimed at them and be retaliated against....so I don't see nuke war but continued economic war and the less and less international mayhem as Russia/China continue to hem in the dying empire beast

Before the end of this year the world will be tied up into gridlock between the factions that in my mind continue to represent the culturally imbued concepts of public or private money/finance.

consensus versus bullying styles of management. I am tired of bullying and think many others are also....the example we just saw with the Supreme Court circus and John Cornyn saying the the Senate wouldn't be bullied....

[Sep 30, 2018] RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 27 SEPTEMBER 2018 (By Patrick Armstrong)

Sep 30, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

... ... ...

MH17. Russia was immediately blamed and it's been a fact-free Gish gallop since then: flight routes changed retroactively , sudden discoveries of "evidence" defying the laws of physics , faked up intercepts , a potential suspect gets a veto but the owners of the airplane are shut out , blame Russia before the inquiry is finished , no sign of Kerry's promised data but "social media and common sense" instead, radars switched off , damage ignored when it doesn't fit the story .

But, finally, a mistake: the Ukrainians came up with a fact .

Missile parts have serial numbers, those serial numbers are recorded in logbooks, logbooks exist and the numbers can be looked up . Those parts were from a Buk missile supplied to a Soviet AD unit in the Ukrainian SSR in 1986 and the missile remained there when the USSR broke up.

Oh, and Bellingcat's favourite video is a fake .

Conclusions:

1) that particular missile had nothing to do with MH17;

2) the Ukrainians shot MH17 down either on purpose or by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ).

But let's gallop round the fact-free track again .

[Sep 27, 2018] The BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense

Sep 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

TJ , Sep 26, 2018 1:25:05 PM | link

THE BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense on the 6PM main news, BBC story

To me the ears look very different in the 2 pictures presented.

Den Lille Abe , Sep 26, 2018 2:07:56 PM | link

Bellingcat is MI6, so what do you expect.

[Sep 25, 2018] RUSSIAN MH17 BRIEFING by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments ..."
"... The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database. The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers. ..."
"... So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian. ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

mourjou , 5 days ago

How difficult would it be for the SBU to paint a Ukrainian BUK launcher to look exactly like a Russian one and drive it round Ukraine for a while stopping long enough every now and then for members of the public to take photos of it and post them on social media. Unless the MH17 investigation can produce photos of the alleged BUK launcher crossing into Russia, the authenticity of the photos can and should be questioned.

The really important question is still why were commercial airliners allowed to fly over Ukrainian airspace in the east when it was clearly known that heavy SAM launchers were active and at least one high-flying aircraft had already been shot down?

RaisingMac -> mourjou , 4 days ago
There was also a rumor going around that MH17's original route was over the Black Sea, but that Kiev ATC had them alter their path in mid-flight to go over Donbass, supposedly because of inclement weather. If so, very suspicious.
PRC90 -> mourjou , 5 days ago
Qantas ceased flying those routes months before MH17 solely on the basis that medium range SAMs were in the ORBAT of at least one of the combatants.

The airspace is owned by Ukraine who collects air navigation charges from overflying aircraft, hence there would have been a financial incentive to keep accepting flight plans for those routes.

PRC90 , 5 days ago
Tech equipment like this usually has two types of logbook. One is the daily serviceability log signed off after each functional test and inspection, and kept with the equipment, and the other is a set of maintenance logs for each system within the (eg.) missile. The latter would be held at the higher echelon maintenance facility waiting for the thing to come home and get fixed or overhauled.

If the Russians gave the munition to the Ukrainians as a permanent allocation, they would have kept basic details but would have given the maintenance books en masse to the Ukrainians due to the weight and volume of these in paper format. They would still have enough to ID what they actually sold or gave away.

Fred -> PRC90 , 5 days ago
The article by Pepe Escobar in Asia Times quotes the Russian MOD, which links the manufacturing serial number of two engine components back to the site of manufacturing and then tracks that forward into the final assembly - the missile. Then the Russians track the missile to the unit it was assigned to in Ukraine.

"So now we know, via declassified files, that the engine of the missile 9D131 allegedly had the serial number 8869032. And a "passport" for the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 carried the number 8-30-113. The actual missile number was 886847349, they said."

http://www.atimes.com/artic...

Snow Flake -> Fred , 3 days ago
I guess I should add it wasn't exactly exactly excitement that made me comment twice. But ... technical ...

I did correct one of those two comments. ... Once the first showed up. Incidentally after the second. I regret this now. Somewhat.

Had no sound initially. Interestingly the Russian version works even without it. Somehow.

my initial question circled around this statement.

2. The videos are fake. The sightline evidence is, to my mind,
apodictic. I've seen other arguments that they are fake but these are
the most convincing. (I do like the backwards driving TEL).

.... That I surely didn't understand without sound. Or maybe not to the extend I would have liked.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Check Patrick's linked video: "Russian MoD briefing". About 26 min in. But I like the video's slowness. Did the JIT seriously use that type of open source "evidence" too? Hard to believe. As hard to believe as the enormous success of its founder? Who even made it into our news for a short time as British expert.

Concerning Pepe, I was pleased about this:

Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group, allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group , allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

I thought that's exactly what they do in Patrick's Russian visual evidence video link above starting around 26 minutes into. Made me look up his site: its English, French, Russian by now. ;)

thanks for the link.

PRC90 -> Fred , 5 days ago
Yes, that's the original manufacturer's data, and given the manufacture date's proximity to the transfer date it looks like the munitions were made specifically for a Ukraine order, which may indicate sequential serial numbers across the batch.

The actual maintenance document bundle would disclose if any internal serial numbered systems were swapped out for newer Russian hardware after 1986 during the days of Rus-Ukraine brotherly love. This would have a higher chance of occurring if the entire SAM system was on a Russian maintenance contract, however .. I think not because the Ukr's had plenty of rocket expertise and I suggest they kept the lot, maintenance document and all.

It's up to the Ukr's to produce evidence of what they say the do not have.

Michael , 5 days ago
The "cui bono" is the first thing to investigate. Russia had none. Ukrainian had plenty of obvious one at that.

In fact shortly after the tragedy I was contacted by The saker francophone to developp some argument about this. Note that it was before this francophone site was re-structured. My research focused on the Buck and their presence in Ukraine vast left-over of the URSS echelon strategy storage... with scarcely any maintenance.

Then I focused on the proximity fuse system (a US invention from WWII, which in fact started the first electronic industry), short wawes sent and received, complicated set-up and involving springs to actually trigger the explosion.
Optimal distance was 15 to 50 meters , explosion from little above and missile coming from front (not to be on pursuit mode).

My hypothesis still is that the Buck was pre-1991 era and not very well maintained, that the explosion did occur a little prematurely, killing the crew, causing extensive damages, but not actually destroying the plane capacity to fly

There enter the phantom Ukrainian hunter jet giving the "coup de grace". And this could explain the round entry holes, with on the same picture (left door of the cockpit) exit holes.

Russian defense Ministry was not fully affirmative of the presence of this fighter jet, but was fully positive on 3 buck systems with active radar (acquisition range 140 kilometers, that's 9 minutes to get ready).

The story of the pilot, there are some testimony at his landing, about a rather livid and upset fellow, he did divorce and commit suicide. What this is worse, I don't know.

note: for other reasons I did stop very fast collaborating wit the Saker Francophone.

Peter Williams , 5 days ago
Well the Brits keep such detailed notes of their weaponry. About 30 years ago I had the inner cocking lever of a Bofors 40/60 break, and within a few days we had all the documentation of its manufacture in Britain during WWII - names of the factory, the machinist, heat treating and quality inspection. All that for one small part of the breech block. You can guarantee that the Soviets would be just as methodical about a significant item like a missile.
Patrick Armstrong , 6 days ago
The photo is too tiny, but if you click on it it opens to a better size.
Ulenspiegel , 4 days ago
"Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments."

You still ignore the fact that even now the Russian admit that a BUG brought down the airplane. It was the Russian side which produced a lot of ridiculous statements (ground attack plane with limited service height was launching platform), faked internet sites (SU25) and then quite silently, when the official investigation of the debris of the PLANE could not longer be ignored, admitted that it was a BUG.

BTW: Experts were already a few days after the incident able to conclude that a ground based system must very likely be the culprit, simply by analyzing the many hundred photos of the plan fragments. It was clear that a very high density of fragments were in the front section, while missiles launched by airplanes would have caused damage in other sections (esp. wings around engines).

Patrick Armstrong -> Ulenspiegel , 3 days ago
Google is your friend Play Hide
Michael -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
The Buck system is composed of 3 vehicles one is for the long range acquisition radar. The missile does have an in-build acquisition radar but with a 35 miles range. The idea, and Bellingcat pictures supporting it, of a lonely lorry with a missing missile, was ridiculous.

While typing i get confused and have edited: it was a picture of the left side cockpit, and it did show round entrance holes and rugged exit. An ex German pilot was positive it was gun amo marks.

Yes I did read your piece in Russia Insider the day it was published. Thanks for your work.

Max van der Werff , 3 days ago
Telar driving backwards is incorrect. Russian MoD mistakenly took route presented by JIT as correct. View Hide
Prince Monolulu , 3 days ago
ELINT, and what we have not been told about, it is the key here.

The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database.
The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers.

So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian.

Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Petri Krohn is unconvinced by the vanishing point argument pointing out that the Buk TEL does not sit flat on the trailer.

Yes, there seems to be something beneath the Buk-Tel, whatever it is. There are other trailer images that don't have this thing underneath. One can see it better in the video. Who is Petri Krohn?

What puzzles me me more are the "the truck's (blue)" lines. Why would you take the back of the cabin? Vs the sides as with the Buk-Tel on the trailer to make your point? For special effect? Heighten the difference to earlier neatly converging vanishing points?

Last but not least in that specific shot there is a slightly complicating camera angle. The shot is a bit sideways from the driving car. Which does not quite fit into the earlier continual straight ahead pattern.

But yes, the JIP did its best in impressive visualization too. See video below.
*******
Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster/Narrative conference 24 May 2018. The precise numbers are given here for the first time? Publicly? Pressure on the Russian. After all one has a lot more evidence one does not show we are told. From that perspective the response is not bad. See first video linked below.

So now we have new offer for the so far main suspect, the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, we are offered to look into the Ukrainian 223 Tereboylya Anti-Aircraft Brigade, now stationed in Stryi. The earlier Russian military unit 20152.

https://www.om.nl/onderwerp...

Here comes the more entertaining earlier version of the Public Prosecutors Service collection. There is more. Anyway, I vaguely remember this one. A visually coherent narrative for easy public consumption. It feels this was centrally challenged.

Play Hide
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
Patrick,

Re my earlier comment, the JIT info request seemed a bit odd. You'd think they would have access to Russians who could give them chapter and verse on what these numbers mean. Any thoughts?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
I haven't changed my position from this https://patrickarmstrong.ca...
Leaving the port engine intake out is all I need to convince me that it's just part of the anti-Russia war
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
Yes, I read your article at the time and again just now. It still makes sense to me.

Presumably the warhead on this missile identified by the MoD was of the older "non bow-tie" type (as per AA)? If so, it's all starting to look a bit like a QED, is it not?

Right from the beginning I wondered if Russia would have captured enough data to know what happened. Is that how you see it and if so, how do you rate the odds that Russia has been playing an incredibly long game on this one?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
We'd all like to wish they were but my thinking is that only when the numbers appeared were they able to have an actual FACT on which they could work. All the accusations against Moscow are simple assertions with no facts you can get your teeth into. Finally the Ukes were stupid enough to present a fact.
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 4 days ago
Yes.

So are you also suggesting that whatever evidence the Russians collected at the time of the incident wasn't incontrovertible enough to overcome what would be the automatic Western presumption that it must be faked?

In other words, while the Russians may know what happened they were previously unable to prove it to the satisfaction of a sceptical audience?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
2 days after View Hide
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
Indeed, although not quite what I meant by "sceptical audience"!
Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
You're not suggesting that I think that the JIT is anything other than a coverup, are you?
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
No, not at all.
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
It's almost amusing. At the JIT May 24 update briefing, Politie.nl reported that the following request for information was made:

"Jennifer Hurst, Commander of the Australian Federal Police, explained, on the basis of an animation that the JIT urges the public to think about answering three specific questions about both rocket components found on the crash site.

Do you recognize the handwriting of the number on the venturi? Do you have information about the numbers on the venturi and the casing? Or do you know anyone who knows about the meaning of those numbers? Are you or do you know someone with information about the missile in which these parts have been placed and to which unit this missile was delivered?

Hurst: "If you have an answer to one or more of these questions, then we urgently ask you to contact the JIT.'"

So it's just the Russian MoD being a good citizen . . .

P.S. At the same briefing the JIT noted they couldn't be certain these missile fragments belonged to the one that brought down MH 17. That caveat aside, however, this does seem a rather comprehensive response from Russia.

Snow Flake -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
Ingolf, they even offer witness protections programs.
Ingolf Eide -> Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Wonderful. No takers I assume?
PRC90 -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
Will we ever see the chain-of-custody record of these items ?

It would also be interesting to hear from (ex) tech intel exploitation people who have been out and about scavenging up bits of expended rocket case in the past, if in their experience the case displayed here should have been more deformed by it's terminal velocity (80 meters/second ?) impact with the ground.

Ingolf Eide -> PRC90 , 3 days ago
PRC90,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I didn't, and still don't, have a useful response to either of those questions.

[Sep 23, 2018] I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 except the suspicion the Malaysia was also a target(may be due to the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal) and choice of Dutch was instrumental in the cover-up.

Official investigation looks more and more like 911 commission or JFK assassination commission. Powerful state via their intelligence agencies now have tremendous capabilities to hide even most egregious crimes and block any objective investigation for many years, if not forever.
After so many years the discussion of MH17 still revolves about establishing the basic facts. Especially facts that were ignored by official investigation. such as shelling the area by Ukrainian forces after the crash, or too quick launch of "highly likely" campaign by Western MSM (which now can be viewed as a strong suggestion that we deal with a false flag operation like was the case with Litvinenko poisoning and Skripal poisoning ). Why the flight path of MH17 was changes and differ from previous days also remain unclear (previous days they flue over Azov sea) . Why Ukrainian air defense units was deployed in the area and were active that day is also unclear. Rebels did not have any ir force. Visit of Brennan under fake name to Ukraine is another interesting part of the story. And there are many questions like that.
The question of "que bono" is also an interesting one. As is the question why false flag operation often happen when there are some maneuvers in the area like was the case with 811 and Skripal cases (and there were NATO maneuvers in Ukrainian airspace). As one commenter aptly observed " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "
Russia behaviour creates several questions as well: for example recent revelation of the serial number of the Buk rocket (which so far did not leave any trace in the air that we can refer too in pretty densely populated area). I saw horizontal trances of fragments that hit airliner, which suggests air-to-air attack. There were phone of the part of the wing with horizontal trace of the elements.
The stories about Ukraine Su-24 pilot who later committed suicide as well as about role of oligarch Kolomoychenko also do not fit into official version. None of them testifies before the commission, which signify the absence of the desire of the commission to gather facts that might contradict predefined outcome.
As the USA refused to provide any evidence and Ukrainian authorities hide their evidence we also have another "plausible" signs of a false flag operation directed on introduction of sanctions against Russia.
In any case the following discussion is pretty educational as it rehashes many argument for "Russian did not do it" point of view on this tragic accident.
Notable quotes:
"... The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. ..."
"... " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. " ..."
"... One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′. ..."
"... I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation. ..."
"... Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds. ..."
"... At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia". ..."
"... At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing. ..."
"... Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. ..."
"... At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft. ..."
"... "In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?" ..."
"... As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial). ..."
"... The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on. ..."
"... That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty. ..."
"... The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness. ..."
"... Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

ALCvA , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT

I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law. In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq. In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague. In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

Kees van der Pijl , says: • Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMT
@ALCvA I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMT
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "

The key sentence. Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France. This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.

Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.

It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda. Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts. One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ? Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz

Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/ showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Of course this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17

Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply

Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply

Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply

"International relations" is not a science.

Leave a comment

Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17

Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
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July 2018
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May 2018
April 2018 " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. " A weird compelling case.

They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it. Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.

I am not in the least convinced. The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions. About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.

But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide. If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.

If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done. But a BUK flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ? All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

Tom Welsh , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMT
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"

That is extremely puzzling -- indeed, inexplicable -- if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.

As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising -- it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.

Baron , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:30 pm GMT
An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

On the MH17:

Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgment on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:47 pm GMT
Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.
Mike P , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:49 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the Ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.
Mr. Hack , says: July 9, 2018 at 1:05 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Wizard of Oz , says: July 9, 2018 at 2:47 pm GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here. Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn't even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:03 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them, as they don't have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:48 pm GMT
The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin "ordered" the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.
Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:49 pm GMT
I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal activity to Assange. BTW, that "investigation" already lasts for two years, with no end in sight. Quite natural when the fox "investigates" its own depredations in the hen house.

However, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the "official" narrative pushed by the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.

1. This "investigation" is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered. Judging by its length and meager results, this "investigation" is simply a cover-up, pretty clumsy at that.

2. If one discards the "evidence" from social media, which any self-respecting court of law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund "Bellingcat" are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.

3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary chain of custody was not observed.

4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single witness reported seeing that. Why?

5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?

6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never presented in four years. Why?

7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot's cabin, visible on many photos, that looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored. BBC video was removed from their site. Why?

8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent "conclusion" of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this "conclusion". Curious, no?

Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won't explain their actions, though, as they don't want to anger very influential forces pushing a different narrative.

To summarize, Roman dictum "cui bono" is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the perpetrators.

FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:20 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked? You're confusing things here

The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire [incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]

The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey

Specifically the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead

They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1

Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead

Here is the DSB final report of October 2015

On page 132 we have this

' it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile '

There is the problem right there The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38′

The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey the right shows the response of the DSB which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source page 132

' According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead '

So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source

And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry

In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are

And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years having been long ago replaced by updated versions

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMT
I would not trust neither the dutchies nor the ukrobanderisti in anything .
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage. No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
@Tulips I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given? It was ordered to fly lower.
This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
As far as I know no explanation was ever given
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:49 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'

Again you are garbling known facts there was never any Russian 'satellite photo' it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time

The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues' apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:00 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.
In this case, my estimate, twenty You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:19 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. Ed there is nothing we can 'analyze' from a distance that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous 'Bellingcat'

The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels to the West which they probably should not have done considering that they end up getting blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands

The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations the first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules and we would presume it is professional you will note that they did not try to establish who fired the shot [or shots]

That is what the ICAO rules state the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future

The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke actually citing Bellingcat social media 'pictures' and such as 'evidence'

There is nothing that can be done about that it is clearly a kangaroo court

However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too I have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies in all honesty, I would say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the findings are whaat they say they are

But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here to really find out what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone those actual pieces need to be expertly examined

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:28 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. I am not sure how many "accidental" deaths or "murders in the course of botched robbery" (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.

I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I'd love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.

republic , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:43 pm GMT
In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

I wonder why this purge is taking place?

Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice.

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMT
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/09/who-was-stepan-bandera/

Those guys blew up the plain , and are trying to blow up everything

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 1:11 am GMT
@Anonymous Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.

As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,

This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down

As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route -- which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia -- for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

-- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:29 am GMT
@FKA Max

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,...
This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down


As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route - which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia - for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9EWwNbSVE

This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:

Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of 'Buk missile unit'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw

BREAKING - MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sviL113eOU

MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb9Axg4DaeY

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :

PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .

Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We -- those with properly functioning intellects -- know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

Leave a comment

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Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17

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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

Vojkan , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:50 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
@jilles dykstra It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.

"MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the 'optimum' altitude," the airline said.
"However, an aircraft's altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet."

( https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mh17-requested-higher-flight-altitude-from-ukranian-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines-30442304.html ] rgds

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

1. Der.

2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'

3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

4.

An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'

Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMT
there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine -- in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.

When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

republic , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:56 pm GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non July 10, 2018 at 4:59 pm GMT

@Wizard of Oz We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn't leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.
AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:12 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.
The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after sanctions were allowed.
The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never been asked, not even now.
As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was shot down. You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.
denk , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
How it all began .

2005, as per the Guardian
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, '

2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners.

mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air .

[tip of an iceberg]

From these facts alone,

Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once .
one stone killing three birds ?

Elementary, Watson !

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:56 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard - not a good look if one doesn't want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.

Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There's your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).

As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn't the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.

** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)

' Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun '

Sure thing, Perry Mason LOL btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest' nice work

For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon

Here's what that BBC article you linked to says

' The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day -- 160 planes flew over the region '

Now here is the rest of the story for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day a region more than half the size of Germany only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area

Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country

Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV] comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]

Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk

Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it

The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic

Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations

The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity

So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route ie airway L980 big difference

Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything

Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south

There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft] and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman

As for our friend Wizard may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:04 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz "Simple(st) solution"!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done - surely for certain - what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?

You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee. Life is simple. "Cui bono" is the key. The rest is hot air.

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:43 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement ?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17 '

Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever

And just to put this in perspective the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt' not from Russian sats

So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false

As for Higgins and Bellingcat we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon an 'idiot'

also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol

Hmm interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:55 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university

' showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot' talk about chutzpah

Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight' yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread pretty pathetic

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:07 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. "If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive."
-- let's try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
The author wrote: "Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure."
The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
'"All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei.
This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach -- "Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths" -- to international law and the judicial system at large.
The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible criminal acts of Ukrainians?
Why has an expert in selling the ladies' underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King's College London admire the ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, " the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase "

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:15 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

' Nothing to do with radar '

Sorry kid like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned

This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said here is a Dutch news report from 2017

And the google translation from the Dutch

' Kiev -- Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

"More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.

Russia had handed over the data -- shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight '

I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:16 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

is this you, Mr. Elliot Higgins?
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:31 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:37 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum...In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia's Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:
Yes No Undecided
2009 67% 1 5% 18%
2010 66% 9% 25%
2011 66% 14 % 20%
Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997
annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. Since when the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"

http://redpilltimes.com/leaked-email-by-dutch-diplomat-on-mh17-says-separatists-do-not-have-ability-to-take-down-a-plane-kolomoisky-being-set-up-for-fall/

https://nodisinfo.com/hacked-emails-prove-zionist-ihor-kolomoiskly-mh17/

https://southfrontdutch.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/de-man-achter-mh17-ihor-kolomoyskyi/

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:53 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here "the highest sources from the Russian Federation".

I have answered this above. You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:59 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.
Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:15 pm GMT

petitio principii fallacy?

hey lizard,

are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?

or,

are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its expansion?

And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about 'assassinated journalists' and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a temper tantrum.

Yes? No?

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:16 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz You seem to be clever enough when you try hard... Do you understand why I say your use of "cui bono" is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy? The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.
FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.

If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level - or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine "I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us".Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).

If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so - or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?

' If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000 '

You have that completely backwards it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off

The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330 the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]

The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there

There is nothing unusual about any of this ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude

[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]

Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine not 'six or seven'

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMT
@skrik

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :


PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We - those with properly functioning intellects - know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

-- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:

All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting

-- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:53 pm GMT
@Anon OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if anyone bothered), partisan guff? "tendentious, highly contestable, partisan "
Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was "highly contestable" and "partisan?"
1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? -- Try!
2. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about this quote? -- "All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol Nidrei "was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year. In "modern" Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the commencement of Judaism's holiest yearly event of Passover."
3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly insists?
4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/&#8211 ; What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about the US refusal to provide the evidence?
5. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about naming Elliot Higgins an ignoramus and Russophobe? http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/06/a-to-guide-top-anti-russia-think-tanks-us-funds/ -- You are welcome to enlighten the reader.
JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:59 pm GMT
@Rurik there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

https://mh17scenario5.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/buk-launch.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4

what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine - in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.

When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

I'll bet that those Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns to advance their plans. A special frisson.
JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:01 pm GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty He's the intellectual equivalent of a colostomy bag. Heh.

But actually, I think the contents of the colostomy bag is in the running.

Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:22 pm GMT

Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns

no doubt

somewhere else here there was a discussion about how the Zionists are upset with the Germans for being too passive, (after generations of being demonized as congenitally militant).. but now they want the Germans to get riled to go kill Arabs for them.

Neo-Nazis killing Russians in Ukraine must certainly give them a 'special frisson' like no other.

now how to get American goyim to kill Arabs and Persians to kill American goyim and Germans to kill Arabs and Poles to kill Russians and English to kill Persians and Sunnis to kill Shias and Americans to kill Sunnis and Shias and

no wonder they were dancing and high-fiving each other on 9/11

Wizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:29 pm GMT
@FB

'...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
You have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off...

The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...

The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...

There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...

[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]...

Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...

So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of words when there is no useful point to be advanced.
Wizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:35 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again. You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.
annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:58 pm GMT
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:


All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166 "I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc"
Sure. Mr. Higgins is also pretty sure that BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc. All because of his incomparable expertise.
Here is an opinion of the highly competent and highly principled Robert Perry: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an " amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud ." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.
More for FKA Max: "Higgins had stumbled into a potentially profitable (in terms of media exposure and possibly pledged funding) publishing venture. His output has been nothing if not consistent, viz: Consistent with what one would expect from promoters of the Anglo-US-NATO Official Narratives of geo-politics and the War on Terror, but done in a slipshod and blatantly partisan fashion that those who quote him (the Commercially-controlled media) are wary of claiming their own "
Enjoy the company: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
"Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat, a celebrated internet blog that specializes in using open-source information to blame Russia for every crime against humanity -- real or imagined -- committed so far this century." https://www.sott.net/article/388086-NATO-stooge-and-vulgar-twat-Eliot-Higgins-has-go-to-message-for-critics-Suck-my-balls
denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:58 am GMT
Why was mh17 shot down ?

To demonise Russia.

Why was mh370 'disappeared' ?

Following the 'disappearance' of mh370, there were spades of kidnappings of Chinese tourists by the Abu Sayaff gang. [1]

PM Najib wondered out aloud .
' Somebody is out to drive a wedge between Malaysia/China'

That was my first thought when hearing a Malaysian airliner had 'disappeared' with 200+ Chinese nationals onboard .

Before mh370

After .

Malaysians go online to fight Chinese criticism over MH370

https://www.todayonline.com/world/malaysians-go-online-fight-chinese-criticism-over-mh370

Missing MH370: China, Malaysia Mistrust Becomes War of Words

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/missing-mh370-china-malaysia-mistrust-becomes-war-words-n61481

Malaysia Airlines MH370: China's unusual anger and finger-pointing

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh370-china-s-unusual-anger-and-finger-pointing-1.2587969

minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

http://www.thatsmags.com/china/post/4057/malaysia-minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

In MH370, upset Malaysian officials see China ploy to divert anger

https://www.malaymail.com/s/646263/in-mh370-upset-malaysian-officials-see-china-ploy-to-divert-anger

MH 370: The deterioration of Malaysia/China relations

http://mole.my/mh-370-the-deterioration-of-malaysiachina-relations/

Tip of an iceberg.

cui bono ???

[1]
Long known to be CIA patsies

http://socialistworker.org/2002-1/388/388_04_Philipinnes.shtml

NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 2:35 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. No doubt you were called in on a military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.
NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:03 am GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty Pot, meet kettle. Asshole. That's not really fair. FB quite clearly is very knowledgable on matters of aviation and aerospace and has written lengthy informative comments that have been praised by many readers whilst the Wiz is seen by most readers here as being on the same low level as Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and such like, having zero credibility and an obvious purpose here to confuse and obfuscate.
AnonFromTN , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:08 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur. Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:07 pm GMT
This site has a marvelous history publish even the insane comments, but credibly enough also many well founded and reasonable ones. The worst comments imo are those from revisionists, flat earthers and neo nazis.
On this article, I think it matters most to just ask: Qui bono; who benefited?
Major players on the world arena do stupid things, but there is always an agenda. And thing do not happen by chance, nothing ever did, history has proven that. Minor players have to be satisfied with the agenda presented to them by their overlords.
In this "peculiar incident" a airliner what downed in some way. Both Major players have been "peculiar" reluctant to pursue the case (In copmparison to their usual MO), Russian maybe a bit more openly rejecting the responsibility.
The minor vassal states hollering their masters script as usual. But who benefited ? Well the Ukrainians did initially benefit, but squandered everything away, a corrupt kleptocrat oligarchy as it is, so their final gains are worth nil, as neither IMF, NATO, EU and the US sees them as a "partner anymore, just as a basketcase of open thievery.
What is interesting are the Russian/US claims of satelite imagery, radio tapes, ect,ect that they have not published, any of them .. Hmmmmmmn They agreed to this , but why ?
Because one Dirty hand holds another, they are probably blackmailing each other, with stuff too sensitive to the public.
I have not got the fantasy, to think that the Russians did it or that they gave that kind of weaponry to a bunch of not adequately trained rebels. My fingers are pointed at Ukraine, I figure the reason the Russians dont pursue this line of thinking is that they do not wish, a total ciwil war on their borders (violent break up of Ukraine), nobody else wants it, and that is why we are going nowhere.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:17 pm GMT
And please, please! Anything Eliot Higgins has endorsed is false! Anything NATO funds is hardly non partisan or impartial, same goes Syrian watch thing in London cellar, who knows all!!
These guys have discredited citizen journalism incredibly, they are indeed tools of the Evil Empire.
annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:24 pm GMT
@FKA Max

Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat
This seems to be highly important and relevant information to be aware of to be able to solve the MH-17 case ;-)

Signs of the Times (Sott.net) is an alternative news website, originally founded on March 26, 2002 by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

- https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times

annamaria ,

Do you also believe this article from sott.net ?

Aliens Don't Like to Eat People That Smoke!

Signs of the Times


But still, we think that there is MORE to the relationship between anti-smoking campaigns and alleged "aliens" - something sinister. The reader may wish to read our page on Diet and Health Related Questions as well as the Wave series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk from which the following has been extracted
[...]
Now, ... did you notice that it says that "animals use similar substances [acetylcholine antagonists or ANTI-nicotine] to paralyze their prey? We have to wonder about the oft reported conditions of paralysis associated with "alien interactions" and the almost rabid attack on smoking in our society.
- http://www.sott.net/signs/anti-anti-smoking.htm Archived link : http://archive.is/c9JIX

Q&A with Laura Knight-Jadczyk -- Skepticism in Research

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiBiUjiyddY

Good information here: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/

MH17 -- Russian GRU Commander 'Orion' Identified as Oleg Ivannikov

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

Thanks again, annamaria , for introducing me to all this new information and all these new sources and resources: http://www.unz.com/article/revisiting-litvinenko-what-really-happened/#comment-2401541

I highly appreciate it, even if we don't agree on the narrative and conclusions, etc.

Never heard about FKA Max, but have a great respect for the late Robert Parry: https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/30/the-berkeley-tribute-to-robert-parry/
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an "amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine." " https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
I have a great respect for Unz Review and Consortiumnews but a zero respect for the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council that employs Higgins as "expert" -- along with another "expert," the fraudster Dm. Alperovitch of CrowdStrike fame: https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/crowdstrikes-alperovitch-is-a-vicious-fraud/

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/06/exposing-the-russian-hacking-fraud-by-publius-tacitus.html

FKA Max, stay with your beloved Belligcat and Atlantic Council -- the Unz Review forum is obviously too traumatic for you.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:38 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:

These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
:-) "Secret US 2006 Government Document Reveals Plan to Destabilize Syria by Using Extremists, Muslim Brotherhood, Elections:"

https://www.globalresearch.ca/secret-us-2006-government-document-reveals-plan-to-destabilize-syria-by-using-extremists-muslim-brotherhood-elections/5647017

"American officials say the U.S. government has had extensive contacts with a range of anti-Assad groups in Washington, Europe and inside Syria. To give momentum to that opposition, the U.S. is giving serious consideration to the election-monitoring scheme proposed in the document, according to several officials. The proposal has not yet been approved, in part because of questions over whether the Syrian elections will be delayed or even cancelled. But one U.S. official familiar with the proposal said: "You are forced to wonder whether we are now trying to destabilize the Syrian government."
Some critics in Congress and the Administration say that such a plan, meant to secretly influence a foreign government, should be legally deemed a "covert action," which by law would then require that the White House inform the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Some in Congress would undoubtedly raise objections to this secret use of publicly appropriated funds to promote democracy."
-- Who needs democracy in the US when the "only democracy in the ME" has a flaming desire to break the functioning Middle Eastern states?
"Neoconservative [ziocon] Think Tank Influence on US Policies:" http://historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:54 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:

These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
:-) If you insist, Mr. Hack, there are some Western reports on the collusion of ziocons with banderites (neonazis):
"The Kagans Are Back; Wars to Follow" https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/15/the-kagans-are-back-wars-to-follow/
Ziocons' tireless support for the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/14/fueling-more-bloodshed-in-ukraine/
"Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?" https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine
You are welcome to debunk these reports.
skrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:02 pm GMT
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:


All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.

Dream on.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:26 pm GMT
Major Israeli Daily: Our Government Is "Arming Neo-Nazis In Ukraine": https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-10/major-israeli-daily-our-government-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine
Where are the main 52 American Jewish organization to condemn the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine?
skrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:31 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Another shonk. For your trivial point.....The SMH is, with The Age, a shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US propaganda.

For your substantial deficiency.... Are you arguing that this photograph proves something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.

More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message. Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.

The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda

Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?

Let smh speak for itself :

Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values

Me: Haw #1

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014

Me: Lie #1

and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17

Me: Lie #2

the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week

Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant

Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict

Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..

Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.

mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor

denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:34 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra I also have wondered if hurting Malaysia was a secundary goal.
Soros indeed is hated in Malaysia, they think that he permanently increased the cost of living by speculating against the Malaysian currency Cui bono ?

First the geopolitical angle, namely fukus decades long effort to stir up shit in SCS, setting Asean/jp against China

'Located on the geostrategic Malacca Strait, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim oil-producing nation with a "Look East" policy allying itself with Japan and China. Last year the Malaysian and Chinese governments established an economic alliance, which includes Asian access to world oil reserves. In the eyes of Washington and its allies, these are sufficient grounds to treat Kuala Lumpur as an adversary .

Even though the Malaysian police force has cooperated closely with the US Embassy in the war on terror, which led to arrests of top-ranking Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, that is not good enough. The late Moammar Gaddhafi of Libya and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad also aided Washington in post-911 anti-terrorism, and look where it got them. It is not enough to be a friend of America. For a leader to survive, he must be a groveling yes-man, a political slave - and never mind America's long-forgotten principles of sovereignty or self-determination.' [1]

The main aim was to wreck KL/Beijing honeymoon, drove Malaysia into the anti Chinese posse.
KL/Beijing relation did go down a few notches post mh370

Meanwhile, fukus always try biggest bang for the buck and go for multi prong attacks.

The other objective could be to liquidate Chinese chip engineers.

'Among the 200-plus passengers bound for Beijing, the target group for the hijack is narrowing down to 20 tech employees working for Freescale Semiconductors, based in Austin, Texas. Among these programmers and systems designers are 12 Malaysians [ethnic Chinese ?] and 8 citizens of mainland China.' [2]

Then , Soros could be part of the caper, exacting his pound of fresh from Malayia. [3]

[1]

https://rense.com/general96/mh370.html

[2]

https://rense.com/general96/tinymicro.html

[3]

https://rense.com/general96/role.html

denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:59 pm GMT
@denk How it all began....

2005, as per the Guardian...
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad,...'

2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners. ...

mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air....

[tip of an iceberg]

From these facts alone,

Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once....
one stone killing three birds ?

Elementary, Watson ! Hmm

For Washington, surely this must be another one for Malaysia's chart sheet, another score to settle !

2004,
The SMH sneeringly opined

' Malaysia puts US in its place over offer to police busy sea lane

Malaysia has rejected a plan by the United States to deploy marines and special forces troops to counter potential terrorist attacks against international shipping in the Straits of Malacca, one of the world's busiest sea lanes.

The commander of US forces in the Asia-Pacific region, Admiral Thomas Fargo, last week revealed a plan to use troops aboard high speed vessels to police the straits, which run between peninsular Malaysia and the Indonesian island of Sumatra.

But in a rebuff, Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister, Najib Tun Razak, said at the weekend that control of the straits was the sovereign prerogative of Malaysia and Indonesia, and US military involvement was not welcome.

https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/05/1081017106683.html?from=storyrhs

Grrrr..
uncle must be straining at his leash over that one.

BUt then you cant keep a good man down for long, uncle sham is now coming into the Malacca Straits in a big way, FON and all that jazz.
where's Najib who gave uncle the finger ?

p.s.
SMH, The Age, The Australian, The conversation all declared me persona non grata.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 11:10 pm GMT
@Quartermaster Cui Bono? Russia. It was a Buk and it was a newer model that Ukraine does not have. There is footage of a group of "rebels" (actually Russian invaders) walking through the debris field saying, with surprise and regret, "we shot down an airliner."

If you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is unconscionable.

The legacy of McCain: http://www.voltairenet.org/article201925.html -- A traitor, warmonger, and coward.
"John McCain is an elected US Senator, and is also president of one of the branches of the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the secret services of the " Five Eyes " (USA-UK-Australia-Canada-New Zealand). On 22 February [2011], he was in Lebanon, where he tasked the transport of weapons in Syria to the Haririst deputy Okab Sakr. He also journeyed to Ersal in order to establish a future rear base for the jihadists.
On Friday 18 March [2011], an Islamist demonstration was staged at the exit of the Al-Omari mosque. The crowd chanted " Allah, Syria, liberty " -- The term should be understood in the sense given by the Muslim Brotherhood, that of "the freedom to apply charia law". During this demonstration, shots were fired both against the police and also against the demonstrators, without anyone knowing where they were coming from. It is probable, as we have seen in Venezuela, Libya, and other countries [see Kievan pitch 2014], that the shooters were from a third force tasked with creating an atmosphere of civil war and preparing a foreign invasion .
Senator McCain admitted that he was in permanent contact with the heads of the jihadists (including the commanders of Daesh) Confronted with a recording of one of his telephone conversations, Okab Sakr admitted that he had supervised the transfers of weapons to Syria."
-- The "war on terra" has been very profitable for MIC; the war has produced conflicts in the Middle East, where the real terrorists became the best buddies of the CIA/McCain and Israeli.
In Ukraine, Brennan (the CIA), Kagans (ziocons), and McCain have become the main promoters and supporters of neo-Nazi. (Hey nazi-hunters, where are you?)
The energetic "Quartermaster" could continue, ad nauseum, to repeating the amazing discoveries made by Eliot Higgins about BUK in Ukraine and WMD in Syria (Higgins is a joy of the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council), but these "discoveries" cannot obscure the facts of arms supply to both ISIS and neo-Nazis by the CIA, Israel, and by the obedient vassals from NATO.
In Ukraine, the banderites have made a pact with ziocons in a hope that by using the US influence, the banderites could establishing a banderite state. Dream on. Expect to be crushed by ziocons, and sooner than later.
Whereas the White Helmets' tales and Skripal affair' stupidities are hailed by MSM, the truth can be found on the alternative sites.

http://fact.international/2018/07/israel-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 2:58 am GMT
@FKA Max Even RT reported that the BND report was never intended to be conclusive but mainly "evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability" and that the Der Spiegel and other media outlets' reporting about it was inaccurate and misleading:

https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/ Archived link : https://web.archive.org/web/20170514120701/https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/


The Russian embassy in Berlin received an official response to note #3693 from October 27 regarding Germany's Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND intelligence agency) President Gerhard Schindler's allegations that local militia in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight in July.

" The media interpretation of the report of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND) president delivered to the Bundestag Committee overseeing intelligence activities on October 8 is incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context, " the note says.
[...]
German diplomats insisted that the BND's analysis and evaluation was based " on information obtained from intelligence and from open sources, " which included data from the interim report of the Dutch investigation commission conducting the inquiry. The report delivered by Schindler " evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability, " the note said.

The ministry stressed that according to the decision of the International Civil Aviation Association (ICAA), investigation of the MH17 flight crash was handed over to Dutch authorities, authorized to exclusively deliver all information on the issue.

RD Insight: Reason's for Putin's high approval rating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTKB4th1Rjg

Alexey Levinson, social research director at Levada Analytical Center talks about the reasons for Russian President Vladimir Putin's high approval rating.

"open sources" -- Eliot Higgins as the main provider? The scoundrel has zero scientific training, zero technical training, zero engineering training, and zero training in chemistry. Eliot Higgins was ridiculed by the experts in all of the above fields of knowledge. But the zionized Atlantic Council loves, loves, loves Higgins. Do you know why, "FKA Max?"
"The media interpretation" -- You mean, "interpretations" by MSM? Cannot stop polluting the Unz forum with the presstituting propaganda, "FKA Max?"

"Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence" by By Robert Parry

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/

"In a letter to Kerry dated Jan. 5, 2016, Thomas J. Schansman, Quinn's father, noted Kerry's remarks at a press conference on Aug. 12, 2014, when the Secretary of State said about the Buk anti-aircraft missile suspected of downing the plane: "We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this airplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
The analysts' uncertainty meshed somewhat with what I [Robert Parry] had been told by a source who had been briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts shortly after the shoot-down about what they had seen in high-resolution satellite photos , which they said showed what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile.
The source who spoke to me several times after receiving additional briefings about advances in the investigation said that as the U.S. analysts gained more insights into the MH-17 shoot-down from technical and other sources, they came to believe the attack was carried out by a r ogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch. [See, for instance, Consortiumnews.com's "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts" and "The Danger of an MH-17 Cold Case."]
Do you know this oligarch, "FKA Max?" The Ukrainian/Israeli thug that has been a "pillar of Ukrainian Jewish community?"
Have you heard about Awan affair, the greatest breach of the US cybersecurity? There was certain Israel-firster involved in the crime (she was also instrumental in rigging the Dems nomination for POTUS). No persecution.
Have you heard about the Wiesenthal Center of Nazi-hunters? Not a peep from the Center with regard to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The revival has involved certain Kagans family, hence the absence of the "peeps."
So please, take your Higginsian revelations about Ukraine and Syria to some other place where they will be appreciated. You know, the zioconish NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Guardian, and likes.

denk , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:16 am GMT
Not OT,

mh370 and mh17 are part of the package deal , a pay back to KL 'insolence' , it has practically bankrupted the MAL,.

Is it possible for a Boeing 777 flying thru SCS, one of the most electronically monitored hot spots in the world, then 'disappeared' without trace ?

Dr Mahathir didnt think so,
'CIA withholding information on flight MH370′

Malaysia made a formal request to Oz for info about mh370.

Canberra .
'impossible, it concerns our national security'
[ sic ]

Why Oz ?

cuz the CIA runs Pine Gap base operates some of the most powerful radars in the world.

How powerful ?

*It can pick up the type of airliners taking off from Changi airbase.

*It routinely monitored , intercept communications from the regions military commands .

*There was even a live broadcast of video conference bet the Malaysian high command in Aussie parliament, to impress on the capability of Pine Gap !

So the question remains,
What dark secrets are the Aussies hiding from the world ?

Den Lille Abe , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:22 am GMT
@Anonymous "Nothing ever happens by chance". On the face of it that looks absurd so let me try and tease out your meaning.

May I assume that you don't mean that everything in the human world happens because at least one human actually wanted it to and caused it to happen?

So let's try with whoever fired a BUK missile which brought down a civil airliner
(a) just accidentally firing when he or another was just using the nearest available plane to centre the aiming mechanism
(b) the intended target was one plane flying near another but, for technical reasons, the missile ended up destroying the wrong plane.
Etc.
Kindly explain your "nothing ever happens by chance" so your readers know what you mean by it. What I meant specifically is when you take events that we ponder in history, there alway seems to an unrlying story that explains the event. An instigation that is plausibly the trigger, causing the event to happen.
The murder in Sarajevo, it was not a lone Anarchist, it was a planned assassination, carried out by a nation state through proxy. But at the surface, it was just a nut job. But it was a thoroughly thought out terror plot, meant to increase tensions to the brink of war and it succeeded, albeit the outcome in the end, historically was dire.
Of course accidents happen and brash foolishness also plays a part, but often things are planned and often enough they backfire.

skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:27 am GMT
@Anonymous Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles why not occasionally put some effort into contributing to the substance and at least answer other commenters points.

Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles at least answer other commenters points

1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises -- like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.

3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, "

4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.

Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]

Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.

Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can -- in my own 'style.'

Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:

FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'

Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a ' *circumstantial* ' argument.

We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F -- k the EU!" If the cap fits

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:36 am GMT
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crash

https://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png

The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.

Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK

MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:


DSA - May 25, 2018

You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929


Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
​Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschuss

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html


Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.

Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.

Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.

Google Translate translation:

However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.

The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.

Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.

Los Angeles Times: "U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was mistake." http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
-- Do you understand that the US has "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile?" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
-- Again, FKA Max, who is that Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch whom you are so strenuously protecting? " the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE
-- Cheerleading for ziocons, FKA Max, with all your Kol Nidrei enthusiasm?

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crash

https://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png

The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.

Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK

MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:


DSA - May 25, 2018

You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929


Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
​Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschuss

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html


Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.

Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.

Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.

Google Translate translation:

However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.

The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.

Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.

You also tried to pollute this site with your opinions on the Skripal Affair. Enjoy: https://robinwestenra.blogspot.com/2018/03/craig-murray-on-skripal-affair.html

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/04/01/skripal-fools/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:56 pm GMT
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence

versus

Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay

e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!

annamaria ,

what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.

Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?

Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?

Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?


In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png

Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?

Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:


The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16

Education as the Elixir of Growth II

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg

Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/

Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?

Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum with the Atlantic Council stuff.
Higgins "investigative" journalism, including his hapless manipulation of photographs from Ukraine, has been debunked by the real experts. Google the debunking yourself.

Los Angeles Times: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems." The US intelligence community has the "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
" the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE

-- You have been shilling for ziocons, FKA Max. Whether you are upset with the banderites lack of success in the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) or you are just another unhappy aliya in Israel, your "research" shows desperation. Anyway, you are not taken seriously.

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMT
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence

versus

Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay

e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!

annamaria ,

what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.

Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?

Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?

Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?


In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png

Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?

Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:


The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16

Education as the Elixir of Growth II

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg

Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/

Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?

Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.

"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."

-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.

denk , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
@Biff First place I thought of when I first heard the news was Diego Garcia. It seems others had the same hunch. Is there evidence? Keep digging.

http://www.volusia.com/new-chilling-mh370-diego-garcia-links/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/mh370-missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-latest-new-evidence-development-conspiracy-theories-what-a7703531.html

https://www.disclose.tv/hijacked-flight-370-passenger-sent-photo-from-hidden-iphone-tracing-back-to-secret-us-military-base-310506

Evidence ?

Other than the fisherman in Maldives who saw a low flying airliner .

It there's any evidence at all it'd prolly reside in the Pine Gap log somewhere.
But what can we do if Oz says we cant have it ?

In civvy case, a court can order a building owner to hand out its cctv tapes to assist a murder investigation,.
On the international level, its entirely different matter cuz the 5lies are above any international law, never mind their constant bleating about a ' rule based international order'.
Its the law of jungle .backed by NATO.
Who's gonna issue a search warrant to NATO ?

Then again, in a civvy murder case, a beneficiary of the deceased would never be appointed as investigator.
BUt this is exactly what happened in the mh370 case where the Malaysian police was ' assisted' by CIA/FBI !
Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop !

Judge, prosecutor and executioner all in one.
No wonder the Malaysian police chief was driven to moan aloud ,
" I doubt this case will ever be solved' !

P.S.
I rarely if ever sit thru a video , preferring to read its transcript.
But I recommend this video if you'r interested in the mh370 case, its worth your time.

Interview with Mathias Chang, top aide to Dr Mahathir,

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:33 pm GMT
" added elements such as humanitarian intervention "

There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.

skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:41 pm GMT
@annamaria Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.

"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."

-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.

Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum

Me: Yes. 'It' is known as a troll [ *it* is un-sexed; especially when trolls align with 'the great Satan' and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they de-humanise themselves.]

My recommendation: I ** 3 = Identify, inform, ignore. rgds

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:42 pm GMT
Great article!
Explains a lot.
Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:47 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. The author clearly set forth the parameters of his article at the beginning of the article.

The article is not a "whodunnit." The article is an analysis of cui, in the end, bono.
How was the incident used to further an agenda.
That is what the author said he would do and that is what he did.
So your complaint is beside the point.

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention.
This analysis is so biased and inaccurate that it has no basis to hang together with a coherent conclusion. This quote is a good example of the author's inarticulate manner in presenting his own completely fantasized (but original) gibberish. Ukraine trying to draw Moscow into the civil war directly? Why not just further this line of nonsense and declare that Ukraine invited the 'little green men' into the Crimea to have it annexed by Russia too? :-) Troll alert!
No gibberish in this article.
Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:59 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. "Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology."

I don't think the author says anything about false flags.
He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
Read the article before commenting!

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 12, 2018 at 9:02 pm GMT
@Skeptikal " added elements such as humanitarian intervention "

There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n12/pankaj-mishra/the-mask-it-wears

Neoliberalism is indeed a scourge.

FB , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:20 pm GMT
@annamaria You have been identified as a polluter of Atlantic Council (zioconish) persuasion.
FKA Max, a representative of Elliot Higgins on Unz forum. Speaking of little poofter Eliot Higgins

Here is a bit of info most people probably don't know the website bellingcat use for photo 'analysis' Fotoforensics.com well the founder of that website Dr Neal Krawetz, has slammed the group for misusing the software

He's not the only image analysis professional who debunks the bellingcat BS Jens Kriese is a professional image analyst in Hamburg, Germany and the founder of the IRISPIX photo archive in an interview with respected German media outlet Der Spiegel, he debunked the supposed bellingcat 'debunking' of Russian sat imagery

' SPIEGEL ONLINE: What's your personal conclusion about the satellite images?

Kriese: The first thing to die in war is the truth. Each side likes to throw random smoke bombs. There is no way of knowing if the images show what Moscow is claiming.

What one can say, however, is that this "analysis" has achieved nothing besides raising awareness of Bellingcat. '

Notice the quotation marks Kriese places around the word 'analysis' so an actual professional dismantles underwear salesman Higgins big surprise there same as Prof Postol dismantles his BS about chem weapons in Syria

Incidentally Spiegel subsequently ran an apology for taking the Higgins poofter BS at face value

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:21 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside. "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."

Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . .

Greg S. , says: July 13, 2018 at 3:32 am GMT
I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.

All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal.

denk , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:42 am GMT
@Skeptikal Unfortunately I cannot make out what Chang is saying about "global tsunami." 58:00. He swallows his words at that point and the most important info is garbled. He repeats what he said, but once again it is not intelligible. The interviewer does not help. What is Chang saying about "214"? What kind of "global tsunami" will cause things to "spill out"? In fact, quite a lot of what follows is unclear. Thanks for the JFK film.

I recommended Chang principally cuz he's the first one who pointed out there's a massive air sea war game going on and mh370 was flying right into that 'eye of storm'.

Was it possible that the AWACS, spy planes, spy ships, etc didnt detect the airliner ?

In fact there was also an air exercise going on when mh17 was shot down . ! [2]

really makes one wonder if these 'war games' accompanying 911, mh17, mh370 and terror drills on the days of Sandy Hook, London 7/7, Boston marathon were there to cover up a crime, a drill that turned live ? [3]

Ian Fleming's law of probability applies.

Here's a Chang video with better sound track but I'd have to re- watch it to see whether I can answer any of your questions. [watched it some years back]

[2]

http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2014%E2%80%B3/

[3]

http://whale.to/c/terror_drills.html

p.s.
having problem accessing UNZ lately.

FB , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:57 am GMT
@FKA Max So, you are basically claiming that the Tungstène software is lying.

I have to give it to you, you are uniquely and expertly brazen.

Photo Expert: 'A Manipulated Image Is Not Necessarily a Lie'


In the age of digital photography, it's become increasingly easy to modify, process or manipulate the content of an image, and increasingly harder to sort truth from fiction.

In 2009, under the impulsion of the French Ministry of Defense, the computer science technologies company eXo maKina developed Tungstene, a program that can reveal changes made to a digital file. Just a few weeks after World Press Photo, the world's leading photojournalism competition, was forced to disqualify 20% of final entries because of excessive manipulation, Roger Cozien, the man behind Tungstene, discusses the relevance of truth in photography in an interview first published in French in OAI13 and republished here for the first time in English.

- http://time.com/3897858/photo-expert-a-manipulated-image-is-not-necessarily-a-lie/

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F05%2Ftungstene-north-korea-2.jpg

In this photograph of North Korean troops engaging in a tr[ai]ning exercise, eXo maKina was able to detect that parts of the image had been duplicated and enhanced.

You are currently between the "Name-calling" and "Ad Hominem" level of "Graham's hierarchy of disagreement". Without the insults, bad manners and bad temper you are currently displaying, you could actually make it to the "Contradiction" or even "Counterargument" level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham%27s_hierarchy_of_disagreement

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg/400px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg.png Holy mother of jesus another friggin spam storm from retardo boy

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation ?

What part of this did you not understand ?

SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID

Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'

I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO

Again that flies over your retarded head what does it take to make a retard understand basic English ?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT does not an ad hominem make moron

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:31 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.

Don't tantalize us. Do give a link to the report of the Spanish (!) air traffic controller's statement. sounds odd. Pay in Ukraine would be much lower than in Spain though I suppose he could have married a rich Ukrainia
n's daughter or ex .

Also, while waiting, I'll guess that someone sacked for being drunk on the job decided to sell a story to TV.

Much more important how do you deal with the DSB's 250+ page report which, from memory, rejects all theories involving other aircraft in the near vicinty of MH17 based on both Ukrainan and Russian radar which showed MH17 but no other planes?

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:44 am GMT
@Skeptikal "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."

Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . . Have you done a patent search? It's usually not difficult if you want to supplement hearsay.

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:55 am GMT
@Gerard Quote : "Most importantly they had the motive". Agreed this is the most important question of all. After the first report I wrote to the Dutch DIB in The Hague asking as to whether the board had considered the motive and also what motive the East Ukranian separatists could have prompted them to hand over in good faith the flight recorders. Of course I did not receive a reply and did not expect a reply. Hitherto I have never received a honest and coherent answer to those two questions. Personally I have no answer to the question what motive Russia could have to shoot down a passenger liner in broad daylight.
I am still awaiting serious answers to those two questions.
(Sorry I couldn't read all comments) I think you are seriously missing the point that the default hypothesis is the best answer, namely that no one had a motive to shoot down MH17. If, instead of writing to what you call the "Dutch DIB" you had read the Dutch Safety Board's report you would have spared being treated as an irritating gadfly. The DSB's job was technical explanation not analysis of political or military motives. Moreover it might have occurred to you that a very good reason for handing over the black boxes was to avoid the inferences which would naturally be drawn by refusal to hand them over. Indeed it makes sense that Russia instructed its protegés to avoid doing something silly like hiding the black boxes.
Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:14 am GMT
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?

What part of this did you not understand...?


SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...

Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...

https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Have you read the DSB report? Given the amount of time you are putting into whatever cause it is you support its 250 or so pages shouldn't deter you. Interesting in particular how many online comments on MH17 it shows to irresponsible or trollish blathering. The holes are obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes. There were hundreds of metal fragments in the pilots' bodies. There were no other aircraft nearby etc etc. So .

If you have read what must now be the starting point for discussion what do you say is wrong with the report, and on what evidence and reasoning?

Can you at least be one of those who is ear headed enough to see that the DSB report goes nowhere near saying that anyone, let alone Russians, deliberately shot down MH17?

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:20 am GMT
@Greg S. I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.

All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal. And why do you like that conspiracy theory? A lifelong taste for fairy stories?

skrik , says: July 13, 2018 at 9:09 am GMT
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?

What part of this did you not understand...?


SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...

Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...

https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Err, not exactly OT, but consider my 'it' characterisation may be close to the mark -- if FKA Max is a robot = AI experiment [going wrong!] Consider this month alone it's posted 74 times so far, with a 'nom-life-time' average of over 320 words per post, noting a lot of cut'n paste included = getting towards 2k text per day, with a non-trivial number of incoherent sections. An erring robot for the FUKUSIL empire! rgds

AnonFromTN , says: July 13, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
@Anon I don't see you having tagged Wizard of Oz comments with Troll so are your readers to infer that your definition of a troll is someone whose questions you can't answer or whose nitpicking pedantry (as perhaps you see it) has got under your skin?

But you do say something of general interest. You allege that there are lies in a post which was nearly all relaying what the Dutch Safety Board said so it is a bit hard to see what you meant by "lies". Would you care to elucidate - unless of course your "lies" too, like "troll" was a Humpty Dumpty word. I did not mark that personage as Troll because somehow the site does not allow me to do that.
Now, as to lies, here is an incomplete list:

1. None of the pieces of material evidence satisfied chain of custody rules required by the law in most countries, including the Netherlands.

2. Alleged missile fragments "from the site" were provided by one of the suspects, Ukraine. Their provenance was not (and could not be) ascertained.

3. Shrapnel pieces. I quote DSB findings "The numerous injuries resulting from perforation of the pre-formed fragments after detonation of the warhead immediately killed the three crew members in the cockpit. There were no pre-formed fragments found in the bodies of the other occupants."

4. Site access: in contrast to WoO, DSB does not complain about site access (item 2.12.1 of the report, 1st paragraph). The second paragraph talks about security situation. If fact, Ukie military shelled the area of the wreckage for weeks (mentioned in DSB report on p. 54, without specifying who was shelling the area, which is a giveaway). WoO does not acknowledge that, blaming Donetsk People's Republic instead.

5. Most foreign objects found in passenger remains were identified as personal belongings, parts of the plane, and stones/coal particles from the ground (pp. 84, 86, 95).

6. A number of metal fragments were found and analyzed. Some could have been high-energy pieces from whatever downed the plane (items 2.15.2 and 2.16.2).

7. Traces of several explosives were found: RDX, TNT, and PETN (p. 93). Only one explosive is used in Buk missiles.

8. There were two (not one) peaks of sound from cockpit recorder before the crash (pp. 11-112).

9. Item 3.8.4 is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be included.

One can continue, but what's the point? The other issues (items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8), as well as the fact that international airlines fly through the Russian airspace, but avoid Ukrainian, which I raised in my post (#45) are studiously avoided by that "WoO" personage and other trolls from the same side. Sapenti sat.

FB , says: July 14, 2018 at 5:22 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra I am Dutch, and of course the disaster starled us.
Hardly anyone in our country has no personal connection with someone who died, or someone who lost a relative or friend.
A friend of one of my children lost three relatives.

However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military 'experts' knew it was a Russian BUK.
That on the afternoon of the disaster prime minister Rutte made a phone call to vice prime minister Asscher, so secret that Asscher, on vacation in the south of France, had to call Rutte on a land line so that, as Asscher stated 'the Russians could not listen in'.
On the day of the disaster the Netherlands blocked sanctions against Russia, the next morning sanctions were possible.

Since then the accusation, without much proof, as far as I can see, and without any motive 'that Russia did it' has been repeated over and over again.
Memorials were erected, remembrances all over the place.
So to be honest, I do not believe one word of the accusation.
The only possibility of Russian implication is an accident, Ukraine abusing overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers, in the expectation that nu BUK would be fired.

The possibility of shooting down MH17 deliberately, in the tradition of Sept 11 and Pearl Harbour, quite probable, in my opinion.
These investigations, read the Warren report on the Kennedy murder, not worth the paper they're written on.
In the Warren case, Whitewash wiped the floor with Warren.
If something similar will be published on the Dutch report, I would not be surprised. Jilles I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it

From a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game ie so-called citizen 'journalism' here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected

' Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.

They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.

The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was '

A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer

jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:05 am GMT
@AnonFromTN The organizers of the crime knew exactly what is going to happen and how they intended to spin the event. What else is new? There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea
jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:19 am GMT
@FB Jilles...I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it...

From a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game...ie so-called citizen 'journalism'... here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected...


'... Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.

They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.

The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was...'

A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer... The fact that I'm Dutch and follow Dutch 'news', plus that I've never heard of this Max van der Werff, tells a lot, I suppose.
But, as with Sept 11, I'm no longer interested in detailed discussions about events.
They just muddy the waters.
Neither the rebels, nor Russia had any interest in shooting down a commerial airliner, while the west had.
Naming the criminal who is supposed to have done it, a Russian army officer, can also not convince me, as the investigation club intends to ask him why he did it.
AnonFromTN , says: July 15, 2018 at 2:41 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea There are many indications who organized this provocation: only the organizers could have responded with the speed the US authorities did. I would not be surprised if the Dutch government was in on the game ahead of time, too. After all, what are vassals for? As we know, the king is played by its courtiers.
Robjil , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:13 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "

Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up.

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 15, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMT
@Robjil "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "

Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up. These far right Ukrainian groups are either hired muscle who are too dumb to know that they'll be disposed of once they've outlived their usefulness, or directly bankrolled as front operations by the Jewish oligarchs running the Ukraine, as a diversionary tactic. Probably some combination of both, even Putin fails to ask the right questions about them.

annamaria , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. " the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting?"
-- You imply that the revival of neo-Nazism, with the considerable and decisive help from ziocons, and the resultant sufferings of Ukrainian Jews are self-excluding. They are not.
-- And where have you found, in my posts, a conflation of all Jews with zionists/ziocons? It is like saying that the US citizenry is made up of Cheneys and Kristols. This is not true. Speak for yourself.
AnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:35 am GMT
@FKA Max

I really don't understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it. I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS insignia?
You might be on to something:

The Straight-Edge Neo-Nazi Group that Attacked a Ukrainian Roma Camp


" We really understand that Russia could be behind it, but I can't say it with 100% certainty, because it wouldn't be a correct thing to do, " Hrytsak said at a joint press-conference with Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Hrytsak stated that "a namesake organization was registered in Russia in 2014," although it's not clear if he meant if it was formalized in Russia or popped up on the radar there. If he was referring to the large VK group, Hrytsak is mistaken, as Popovich is and was Ukrainian. While the Kremlin has directly funded and supported numerous far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Europe and Russia, most notably through the proxy of billionaire Konstantin Malofeyev http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415623 , there are no apparent links between the Sober and Angry Youth and the Kremlin other than typical links of pan-Slavism present in many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in the region.

Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs also claims that, regarding the lethal attack on Roma, Russia has an interest in presenting Ukraine as "a certain radical reality that doesn't adhere to human rights."
[...]
Many Ukrainian far-right groups have a fervent anti-Russian position in relation to the war in the Donbas, including the formation of armed battalions , as seen with Right Sector's "Volunteer Ukrainian Corps," Azov Battalion, the St. Mary's Battalion, and so on. In contrast to these groups, the Sober and Angry Youth groups across Ukraine rarely express strong feelings one way or another in relation to the war, instead focusing on issues related to white supremacy, driving out migrants from Ukraine, and outing and attacking LGBT individuals. Ragozin summarized their position succinctly in a recent tweet, saying that the concerns of the Sober and Angry Youth "transcends borders and national loyalties," with their battle for white supremacy in the region overriding the war between Ukraine and Russia in the country's east.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/ Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.

Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase).

NoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:26 am GMT
The Big Lie lives! And you'll hear it again, and again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/16/russia-must-account-for-role-in-shooting-down-mh17-says-g7

Anon , [130] • Disclaimer says: July 16, 2018 at 12:32 pm GMT
@skrik

Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles ... at least answer other commenters points
1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises - like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.

3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, ... "

4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.

Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]

Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.

Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can - in my own 'style.'

Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:

FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'

Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a '*circumstantial*' argument.

We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F--k the EU!" If the cap fits ... Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F ** k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:53 pm GMT
@Anon Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F**k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world. Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.

FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason.

annamaria , says: July 16, 2018 at 6:52 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.

Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase). Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it."

AnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:52 pm GMT
@annamaria Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it." Judging by the amount of spam it posts and by total lack of intelligence or selection, you are probably right. Will ignore that thing from now on. Then again, a Ukie troll, even though biologically human, could be at the same level of intelligence (meaning lack thereof). After all, Ukies have medically certified retard as a speaker of their parliament. Still, whether a computer script or a Ukie, that thing should be ignored.
skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 10:14 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.

FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason. thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],

testing;preview works but publish disappears

skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 1:18 pm GMT
@skrik thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J... Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],

testing;preview works but publish disappears

[1st attempt was 'marked as spam' but later published; the rest:]

, Q: Who benefited from the maidan inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' "the bad Russians!" campaign, one sees the modus operandi trend and cui bono whodunnit. MH17 fits to the FUKUSIL pattern, *not* to the Russians. Then see Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the impossible and WYSIWYG = the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria. They just can't help themselves; they *must* try to resist the irresistible but their very own actions only dig the criminal FUKUSIL deeper into their hole. rgds

NoseytheDuke , says: July 18, 2018 at 12:58 am GMT
https://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324
NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 1:31 am GMT
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.

What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.

Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.

More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.

There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."

But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece. Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.

Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?

p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.

MattBoi , says: July 19, 2018 at 2:09 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.

Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?

p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.

This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.

Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.

In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 5:04 am GMT
@MattBoi This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.

Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.

In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end. A commendable attempt by you but a total fail nonetheless. If you've seen the shape of BUK shrapnel you'd realise what a massive stretch it is to even suggest that those sharp edged pieces hitting thin metal sheeting at high velocity would result in making round holes has a "benign explanation". By definition, they are designed to shred their target. That those holes would reveal both an entry and exit direction of that shrapnel while coming from the same source would require "magic shrapnel" with magical properties along the lines of the "magic bullet" of JFK fame.

The clear giveaway for me was the rush to judgement by both politicians and media, worldwide. The near instant removal of contradictory testimonials, such as the BBC broadcast of the eye-witnesses, the unconventional investigation which included one potential (and the more likely) culprit, Ukraine. The select language used by media throughout this saga has been a giveaway too, as is you providing a link to a source that was originally set up by the CIA and is now funded by Congressional whores in the USA.

I notice these are your first attempts at commenting here. A weak effort to be sure but with practice you may yet rise to the level of Quartermaster so don't be discouraged.

skrik , says: July 19, 2018 at 3:01 pm GMT
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.

What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.

Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.

More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.

There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."

But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece.

Of course not, because it was an accident!

OK; a sad and sorry, feeble attempt, but let's see. A BUK [from somewhere, anywhere] arrives at a launch-spot, is fired by some crew [who is obviously way 'under-qualified'] and hitting 'by accident' MH17, which just happened to have been put on that specific, far from normal track = anomalously, deliberately by Ukrie air-traffic-control, 'best feeble guess' = presumably the crew thinking that they are shooting down an Ukrie warplane [only Ukries have warplanes in that area].

Perhaps the BUK was captured by 'rebels' [recall Reagan-sponsored rebels were his 'patriots'], or perhaps, as bellingcat asserts, Russia actually sent in the BUK with crew, who were also so incompetent that they perpetrate this 'accident.'

Q: You really believe that? Who could accept that as an explanation with anywhere near maximum probability? It's simply too complicated; contradicting KISS = keep it simple stupid!

A: As I've already said above at lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

Premeditation could be a) getting an *UKrie* BUK pre-positioned, then b) *UKries* putting MH17 into the death-zone. Der, it's simply 1 + 1 = 2; pre-position BUK, divert MH17 and BLAM! All Ukries' own work. Modus operandi [= false-flag atrocity psyops] and cui bono [PNAC/Yinon/Nuland-$5bio Plan], are SOP for FUKUSIL. Then, there are the precisely circular entry/exit holes which *cannot* be dismissed by any amount of hand-waving.

Note that this purported 'accident' as asserted/supported by FKA Max, MattBoi, peterAUS & Wizard of Oz et al. as the typical pro-FUKUSIL vigilante posse, is precisely the same situation as a little boy finding a gun and shooting his sister dead, then blaming the little boy. Look for the gun provider/trigger-pull commanders: FUKUSIL by a country 1.609km. Suck on that, sickos.

kgbgb , says: July 19, 2018 at 7:20 pm GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.

In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking websites showed MH17′s path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).

This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.

I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't find it.

kgbgb , says: July 19, 2018 at 8:59 pm GMT
@republic In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

I wonder why this purge is taking place?

Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice. Zero Hedge changed their servers and/or software at the beginning of this year. If I recall correctly, all comments before that time were lost. Before then, you could go right back to the founding of the site.

I've just checked, and now comments are available back to part way through 1st of June 2017, so maybe they are gradually working backwards restoring them -- but I don't expect it to be a high priority for them. It's a pity, as the missing comments were often the main attraction of the site, full of intelligent analysis and useful links. The quality of the ZH commentariat declined noticeably at the time of the 2016 election, so we are missing the really good stuff.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 20, 2018 at 1:15 am GMT
@kgbgb In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking websites showed MH17's path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).

This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.

I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't find it.

Thank you for your comment. I do read The Guardian but mainly to see just how pungent is the crap of the day that they're peddling. Another thing about MH17 is the video that was supposed to show the BUK being transported across the border from Russia, until it was pointed out that a billboard for a car dealer some 400kms away was seen in the video. Car dealers advertise locally so the video was a blatant fraud and I wonder why anyone would go to that trouble if not to attempt to cover the tracks of a pre-planned false-flag event. Australia's Channel 9 did a 60 minutes program full of nonsense worthy of Elliot Higgins where they also tried to establish "facts" that implicated Russia. Only fools swallowed it but sadly, there is no shortage of wilful fools. Cheers
Rurik , says: July 22, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMT
https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-suppressed-evidence-machine-gun-like-holes-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-not-brought-down-by-a-buk-missile/5648099
NoseytheDuke , says: July 23, 2018 at 1:23 am GMT
@FKA Max John Kerry responsed by a letter dated March 7 2016. The letter is here.

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/response-kerry.jpg

Source: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/john-kerry-does-not-answer-questions-of-mh17-next-of-kin/

Americans Have The Right To Be Stupid -- John Kerry U.S. Secretary of State

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5twSqDZRdiA


Case 3 : The minority view is false and the received view is true. For example, suppose a scholar were to write a book defending the thesis that slavery never happened in the United States. Why should we even tolerate such an outlandish view?

1. Even though the scholar's claims are false, again this forces us to revisit and perhaps rediscover much of the evidence we have documenting the history of slavery. This in turn informs both the way we do history, the way we accept truth claims, and the way we view the present.

2. The falseness of the scholar's claims actually strengthens many of our commonly received views about not just the fact of slavery, but it's legacy also.

- https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2294657 Thank you! I hadn't realised that John Kerry had written a letter. Why didn't you post it at the beginning of the thread so everybody could have been convinced by this truth and everybody would know of Russia's guilt in the matter? Of course lots of people have questioned this in the above thread, convincingly too, but no doubt most were unaware that John Kerry wrote a letter that constitutes proof of Ukraine's innocence and Russia's guilt. Also this means that the MSM can be believed and perhaps they were right about Saddam having WMDs too. Thanks again for your commitment to informing people everywhere on the truth.
Balderdash , says: July 31, 2018 at 4:17 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that 'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated -- again largely unobserved -- back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery" indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made available to the investigation. Not have they requested it.

NoseytheDuke , says: August 1, 2018 at 2:31 am GMT
@Balderdash The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that 'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated - again largely unobserved - back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery" indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made available to the investigation. Not have they requested it. One part of a Buk cannot be used independently to bring down a plane flying at high altitude without the other components. This is why it is usually referred to as a Buk system. Bellingcat is just a disinformation project and a pathetic one at that though it's been quite effective against the weak minded.

[Sep 23, 2018] September 21, 2018 at 2:41 pm

Sep 23, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

And in the classic commercial way, it provides a twofer, since the white helmet first gained widespread popularity with the Village People, so it clicks with the whole LGBTQ touchy feely approach to world affairs we're always being told is essential. Real world hard hats tend to be in high-vis, almost painfully bright colours – orange, red, maybe blue.

White? In the Levant, where half or more of the buildings are white to reflect the sun?

Like Like Reply

Mark Chapman September 21, 2018 at 10:41 pm

Those are really bad. But I don't see much to link them to the White Helmets – just one guy with what I guess is their insignia on the back of his shirt, and nobody wearing the famous white helmets. It almost looks like someone deliberately making a fake which is full of holes, to implicate the White Helmets in making fake films. Just playing devil's advocate here. It would be very easy indeed for the White Helmets to disown these videos if they do not gain any traction.
Patient Observer September 22, 2018 at 2:20 pm
IIRC, the Russian government said a number of videos were shot with most being of low quality and would go straight to YouTube. Two were of sufficiently high cinematic quality to be released to Western media outlets.

However, with the recent agreement to stop military action in Idlib, it would seem that there is no longer an opportunity to use the videos as a justification for a Western military attack.

Indeed, the Idlib agreement has removed any pretext for Western attacks for the foreseeable future. That is big. The military phase of the war in Syria seems to be over.

[Sep 19, 2018] The Russian Defense Ministry has presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, the Defense Ministry's spokesman Igor Konashenkov told the media

Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 4:39 am

Russia presents audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in MH17 tragedy
September 17, 12:56 UTC+3
The Russian Defense Ministry has presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, the Defense Ministry's spokesman Igor Konashenkov told the media

The Russian Defense Ministry has ascertained that the videos showing the movement of a Buk missile system from Russia to Ukraine, presented by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) probing the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine, were fabricated, ministry spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov told reporters

The Defense Ministry also presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, Major General Igor Konashenkov, spokesman for the ministry, told the media

General Konashenkov said the audio recording of a conversation between Ukrainian military servicemen was made back in 2016 in the Odessa Region during the Rubezh-2016 exercise and published in the Ukrainian mass media.

"If so, we'll [a synonym of the verb 'shoot down' – TASS] another Malaysian Boeing," one of the Ukrainian military servicemen said in the conversation

.The "Bloody Pastor" in Kiev replies "Fake!"

Киев назвал "фейком" выводы Минобороны России о сбившей Boeing ракете‍
Ведомости 14:35

Kiev has called the conclusions of the Russian Ministry of Defence concerning the missile that shot down the Boeing a "fake"

Заявление Российской Федерации о якобы украинском следе ракеты, которая сбила МН17 -- это очередной неудачный фейк Кремля для того, чтобы прикрыть свое преступление, которое уже доказано как официальным следствием, так и независимыми экспертными группами.

The statement of the Russian Federation about the alleged Ukrainian origin of the missile that hit the MH17 is another unsuccessful Kremlin fake, made in order to cover up its crime, which has already been proven both by an official investigation and by independent expert groups.

One of the investigating parties being the Ukraine, of course.

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 5:01 am
As a press conference is still underway at the Russian MoD, Sputnik live updates on tht MH17 story here
Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 5:04 am
Latest update:

"The JIT has taken note of the information that has been publicly presented by the authorities of the Russian Federation for the first time today The JIT will meticulously study the materials presented today as soon as the Russian Federation makes the relevant documents available to the JIT as requested in May 2018 and required by UNSC resolution 2166," the statement of the Joint Investigation Team read.

However, one member of the JIT has already made its own conclusion concerning the evidence presented by the Russian MoD, without even finding it necessary to analyze any documents presented by those evil Moskali.

Mark Chapman September 17, 2018 at 11:20 am
And who else would be allowed to get away with that? A necessary suspect, by virtue of the incident having occurred there and having motive, means and opportunity aplenty, nonetheless allowed a seat on the investigation, unrestricted access to the evidence (much of which has by now likely disappeared, never mind the opportunities to doctor it before anyone else saw it) and a veto over the publication of the findings? The dice have been loaded ridiculously in Ukraine's favour, and the wise monkeys still can't come up with a convincing story among themselves. But Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, and it's just so cute, you have to believe it.

When the west finally abandons the Ukraine Project, it is going to have to conclude that Ukraine and Russia were secretly working together the whole time, to trick and defraud and rob western institutions that tried their best to help – there you go, boys; there's your cover story. Far better to be thought a cabbagehead than a co-conspirator.

I still don't like it, and you know why – fragments of the engine and nozzle, never mind one big enough to reveal the entire serial number, should not be in the wreckage. Nothing should have impacted the plane except shrapnel from the warhead, as the missile explodes by proximity fuse without ever touching the plane. Any debris from the missile should have fallen close to where the plane was hit, which was miles away from the crash site. I'm surprised Russia didn't bring that up already when the Ukies were hollering about finding Buk missile parts in the wreckage.

Russia never needed to smuggle in a single launcher to implicate Ukraine – if it had wanted to do that, it could have used a more advanced and longer-range missile to down it as soon as it entered Ukrainian airspace, without ever having to leave Russia.

Jen September 17, 2018 at 4:46 pm
I'm sure the JIT will study the materials so meticulously that this will be the eventual result:

Mark Chapman September 17, 2018 at 5:07 pm
The JIT, led by Ukraine, will study the materials meticulously for any way in the world that they could have been faked or doctored, and then build a case that this is precisely what was done. Russia will once again be taken to task and scolded for lying and trying to frame Ukraine, because the alternative – that Russia was telling the truth all along, in the face of deliberate and determined western efforts to bury the truth and shield Ukraine – is unacceptable.
kirill September 17, 2018 at 1:53 pm
Bellingcrap doctored videos of the alleged Russian Buk system in the Donbass.

Incompetent Ukr forces have a history of shooting down civilian aircraft by accident. MH17 was another victim of their incompetence. Too bad NATzO needs to turn this into "Putler did it" propaganda. I guess NATzO can't take Russia on without dirty tricks. Sore, pathetic losers.

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 12:34 pm
Bum link -AGAIN!

Russia presents audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in MH17 tragedy

[Sep 18, 2018] Mutual disbelief by Paul Robinson

Western commentary on Russia is often so far removed from reality as to appear deranged.
Notable quotes:
"... producing documents showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in Ukraine in 1986. ..."
"... The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army, which can't actually be ruled out). ..."
"... The Daily Telegraph's ..."
"... The Financial Times's ..."
Sep 18, 2018 | irrussianality.wordpress.com
A few months ago, the Joint Investigation Team which is examining the 2014 shooting down of Flight MH17 asked Russia to provide evidence about the origins of the anti-aircraft missile used in the attack. Today the Russian Ministry of Defence did just that, producing documents showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in Ukraine in 1986.

The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army, which can't actually be ruled out).

The immediate reaction of Western journalists was to scoff at the Russians' claim. For instance, The Daily Telegraph's Alec Luhn wrote on Twitter, 'In short, Russia has cited its own documents to claim the missile that downed MH17 was delivered to Ukraine in 1986 and never left.' Quite where Russia would have gotten documents on the matter other than from Russia is a question Luhn ignores, but his insinuation is clear: Russian documents can't be trusted, and so this story isn't worth further investigation. The Financial Times's Max Seddon was equally dismissive. 'How convenient for them to have discovered this now, four years after the fact,' he wrote on Twitter (where the top of his feed continues to show a Tweet saying that 'Russia's team is so bad fans are worried they won't make it out of the World Cup group stage'!). And the Kyiv Post's Christopher Miller showed a picture of a giggling journalist, and remarked 'The face of the person in the crowd at the Russian MOD briefing on MH17 tells you all you need to know about the latest desperate attempt to deflect blame for the disaster.'

Western journalists' rapid dismissal of the Russian documents contrasts with their equally rapid acceptance of documents purporting to be the passport applications of Salisbury poisoning suspects Aleksandr Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov. I have absolutely no idea whether any of these documents are genuine. For all I know, all or none or some of them might be. What concerns me here is what the journalists' reactions tell us about their biases, namely that as a matter of course they don't trust anything coming out of the mouth of Russian officials.

My observations of the Russian media show me that the same is true of Russians, albeit the other way round, i.e. they display an almost total distrust of anything said by Westerners. RT editor Margarita Simonyan, who carried out a recent interview with the Salisbury suspects, expressed the sentiment very clearly on the political talk show 60 Minutes the other day. She didn't have an opinion as to whether Petrov and Boshirov were telling the truth, she said, but what she did know was that Western intelligence agencies had lied about Iraqi WMD and had published a document which named her 27 times as leading an effort to undermine American democracy, something which was completely untrue.

Why she should believe anything the West said, she asked? Reading the Russian press, and watching other TV shows, I get the impression that this attitude is fairly widespread.

... ... ...

[Sep 17, 2018] Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia

Why this information was revealed only now ?
Notable quotes:
"... "we'll f***ing f**k up another Malaysian Boeing". ..."
"... Think your friends would be interested? Share this story! ..."
Sep 17, 2018 | www.rt.com

Published time: 17 Sep, 2018 09:05 Edited time: 17 Sep, 2018 13:20 Get short URL Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia File photo. Dutch experts at the crash site of flight MH17 in 2014. © Aleksey Kudenko / Sputnik The serial numbers found on debris of the Buk missile which downed Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine show it was produced in 1986, the Russian military said. The projectile was owned by Ukraine, they added. There are two serial numbers found on fragments of the missile, which shot down the passenger airliner in June 2014 according to an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands. The numbers were marked on the engine and the nozzle of the missile.

The Russian military on Monday said they had traced them to a missile which had the producer serial number 8868720.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FRTnews%2Fvideos%2F325968421542383%2F&show_text=0&width=860

Speaking to journalists, Gen. Nikolay Parshin showed a document trail of the Buk missile. According to the documents, some of which have been declassified for the presentation, it was produced at a military plant in Dolgoprudny in the Moscow region in 1986.

Serial number on engine and nozzle of the missile.

The missile was shipped from the plant on December 29, 1986 and delivered to military unit 20152 located in what is now Ukraine. It is now called 223rd anti-aircraft defense regiment of the Ukrainian armed forces, the report said. The unit took part in Kiev's crackdown on rebels in eastern Ukraine in June 2014, the general said.

The evidence disproves the accusations by Ukraine and some other parties, which claim that a missile fired by a launcher, secretly delivered from Russia, was responsible for the downing of MH17, the Ministry of Defense report said. All the materials have been sent to the Dutch investigators, the Russian military added.

MIssilye shipment records found in Russia.

The Russian military also challenges video footage used by the UK-based group Bellingcat , which calls itself a citizen journalism organization, to back its allegations about the delivery of the Buk launcher from Russia. The Defense Ministry showed a video clip with some of the footage, highlighting inconsistencies, which it said proved that the footage had been manipulated to place images of the launcher into background which were not in the original.

The Bellingcat investigation was featured in the latest update by Dutch prosecutors involved in the MH17 investigation, prompting the Russian military to study it in detail, they said. The Russian video showed an example of how an Abrams tank can be shown to be carried by a trailer in the streets of Ukraine in the same way.

Analysis of Bellingcat footage by Russian experts.

The third part of the presentation was what the Russian officials called a record of intercepted communications of Ukrainian officials discussing, in 2016, the risk of flying through restricted airspace over Ukraine. Among a barrage of complaints one phrase says unless the restrictions are respected "we'll f***ing f**k up another Malaysian Boeing".

The Russian military say the complaints came from Col. Ruslan Grinchak, who serves in a brigade responsible for radar control of the Ukrainian airspace. His unit tracked the MH17 flight in 2014, so he may have information which is not publicly available about the disaster.

Information on a Col. Ruslan Grinchak shown by the Russian military.

Gen. Igor Konashenkov, who hosted the briefing, said that Ukraine failed to provide radar data from its stations to the Dutch investigators. He also suggested that archive documents from the Ukrainian unit, which received the Buk missile back in 1986, would be of use to the probe, unless Kiev claims that they are no longer available. He stressed rules are in place which mean that such documents should still be stored in Ukraine.

Read more A site of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash Moscow can't accept 'unfounded conclusions' on MH17 downing – Russia's UN envoy

The Russian military said they had no evidence to disprove a scenario, involving the Ukrainian rebels capturing the missile from the Ukrainian army, but pointed out that Ukrainian officials publicly denied anything like this had ever happened.

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling in the rebel-held part of the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15 crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia was blamed by Western media in the first days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.

The Joint Investigation Team, which is lead by the Netherlands, includes Ukraine, but not Russia. Moscow believes that the investigation is biased, failing to obtain all necessary evidence from Ukraine and relying on questionable sources while ignoring evidence provided by Russia, which doesn't fit the theory favored by Kiev.

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[Sep 16, 2018] The Dutch are NATO's plumbers. The do the dirty little jobs no one else wants to do

Sep 16, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Symen Danziger , Sep 16, 2018 3:29:48 AM | link

By the time Dutch involvement in the coup in the Ukraine, the support for neo-nazi's and corrupt olichargs who want to kill the population in Donetsk/Lugansk and further the NATO agenda and the absurd deal with the Ukraine about the MH17 investigation are exposed, only people with serious mental issues will believe the official MH17 report.

The Dutch are NATO's plumbers. The do the dirty little jobs no one else wants to do. From drone targeting around the globe for Uncle Sam (there was a case in court with Somali nationals who lost their loved ones because the Dutch militaty intelligence agency illegally shared tapped sat phone data from an anti-piracy mission with the US to kill supposed terrorists in Somalia with drone strikes) to funnelling tens of millions of euros to headchopping terrorists under the guise humanitarian assistance or helping democratic groups.

The concept of aiding "armed moderate opposition" in another country is criminal and the politicians who were responsible should be extradited to Syria for prosecution as terrorist financiers.

How would the Dutch react if around a hundred countries would put up 70 million euros each to create, train, arm and assist "armed moderate opposition" in the Netherlands? How would the Dutch react if their country was torn apart by mercenaries and criminals from over eighty countries?

How would the Dutch react if a few hundred thousand of them would be killed and a few million of them would turn into refugees?

How would the Dutch react if their country was bombed into the stone age?

All for democracy and human rights...


Nikita , Sep 16, 2018 4:08:47 AM | link

The stench of the continued cover up and the slothful admitance of funding the blindingly obvious putrid jihadist PR team called the WhiteHelmet is what we should be talking about. Will Netflix must make a massive public apology for making their vile PR WH movies ? That is what we need .
All the western governments have knowingly lied and inflicted war and death by silence and silent support for mercenaries in Syria who kill and inflict a medieval hated doctrine and zealot ideology which has caused immense suffering and destruction.
Let's have a western leader stand and tell the truth and repent. The MSM vile machine is not in control of the narrative anymore . It's time to condem this flimsy tissue of drivel, this pathetic cartel of liars to the past.
The truth has been undeniably since the fall of East Aleppo in December 2016.
All western media outlets and powers have lied and perpetuated the suffering and war in Syria since then .

stan van houcke , Sep 16, 2018 4:45:22 AM | link
How the Dutch corruption works one can see, among other things, when one looks at the attitude of professor André Nollkaemper, who kept silent about the fact that the Netherlands supported terrorists in Syria. One has to know the following:

'The politicians adopted a policy that all future support on intervention would be reviewed by an International Law expert. In this case that would have been André Nollkaemper – Dean and Professor of Public International Law at the Faculty of Law of the University of Amsterdam. Of course he was not consulted by PM Mark Rutte of MH17 fame.'

More important even: he himself kept silent for years, like the Dutch mainstream-media and the Dutch politicians and the so called urban elites, after it was well known via internet that the Dutch government supported terrorists.

0use4msm , Sep 16, 2018 4:55:37 AM | link
This is a modern day miracle, a rare case in which investigative reporting triumphs over access journalism, resulting in actual political change.
Will , Sep 16, 2018 5:38:55 AM | link
A 2014 article by Cory Morningstar which unpicks the creation of war-support NGOs and the synchronised propaganda, including the White Helmets. A key document of the war.
http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2014/09/17/syria-avaaz-purpose-the-art-of-selling-hate-for-empire/

[Sep 15, 2018] It would be too much to hope that the Dutch will do the right thing, admit their dismal leadership and conflict of interest, and remove themselves from the investigation, and that the Australians on the team might also resign, since they've also allowed the Ukrainians to push them around

Notable quotes:
"... Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed. ..."
Sep 15, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Jen , Sep 15, 2018 4:47:33 PM | link

Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed.

The Dutch also never admitted that a conflict of interest was present in their leadership of the team: that conflict being the fact that MH17 set off from Amsterdam Airport Schiphol (AAS), itself the site of a previous incident in 2009 when the Underpants Bomber boarded a jet bound for Detroit and tried to detonate his bomb in mid-air. Any possibility that AAS itself should have been part of the investigation was likely nixed.

It would be too much to hope that the Dutch will do the right thing, admit their dismal leadership and conflict of interest, and remove themselves from the investigation, and that the Australians on the team might also resign, since they've also allowed the Ukrainians to push them around.

iano , Sep 15, 2018 6:11:03 PM | link
@Stan van Houcke (9) I'm dutch too and totally agree. The Dutch media, especially Nieuwsuur and Volkskrant lost all its credibility. Only fools will take any of their information serious. This is getting ever more worse and I don't expect any change in that.
These revelations should have come much earlier. They might have expected the information to come to the public anyhow, which made them decide to pretend some investigative journalism. In the meanwhile they brainwash us by repeating false news on Syria, on Venezuela, on Nicaragua, and so on....
The same for the notorious Dutch investigations. It's all false, to name some of them: The 2011 comodo/diginotar CA hack research (blaming Iran), the 2014 MH17 research (blaming Russia), the januari 2018 invented 'evidence' for the DNC-hack (blaming Russia).....

[Sep 15, 2018] Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders using a diplomatic passport and a false identity

Notable quotes:
"... I'll add one. Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders, traveling under a diplomatic passport and a false identity (assumed name). This put him right in the middle of the Ukraine crises, along with Biden and V Nuland, and the mess they created just to get NATO on Russia's borders. ..."
Sep 15, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Curious , August 17, 2018 at 2:30 am

I'll add one. Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders, traveling under a diplomatic passport and a false identity (assumed name).

This put him right in the middle of the Ukraine crises, along with Biden and V Nuland, and the mess they created just to get NATO on Russia's borders.

This is as big, if not bigger than his lying to Congress, so I'll throw in the reminder.

[Aug 24, 2018] I read (Google) Brennan visited Kiev, in the end of June 2014., about 3 weeks before the MH17 was taken down.

Notable quotes:
"... Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between his visit and the taking sown of MH17. ..."
"... The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17 should give one an idea of this). ..."
Aug 24, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Fesje van der Wal-Kijlstra , August 18, 2018 at 4:06 am

I read (Google) Brennan visited Kiev, in the end of June 2014., about 3 weeks before the MH17 was taken down.

Oliver Stone knew CIA had a false flag incident in mind when their invasion in the Bay of Pigs did not work out to end the rule of Fidel Castro in Cuba: taking down an aircraft and blaming Castro for it. John F. Kennedy did not permit this.

Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between his visit and the taking sown of MH17.

Russian rebels shot 6 descending planes with granates from their shoulder. Poroshenko called them "terrorists" and this false flag (?) could be helpful.

Anne Jaclard , August 16, 2018 at 7:55 pm

I do know that the Wall Street Journal mentioned Brennan's alleged role in the creation of the Steele Dossier and the FBI texting scheme in both the news and editorial pages, but I still don't think that he personally is the "ringleader" of all of this.

The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17 should give one an idea of this).

[Aug 18, 2018] I blame Brennan for MH 17 crash in Ukraine.

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack. ..."
Aug 18, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

col from oz , Aug 18, 2018 2:25:52 AM | 74

I blame (Brennan) for MH 17 crash in Ukraine. Two months before Brennan was in Kiev. The Obama Whitehouse denied (at first) that CIA Brennan was in Kiev however video proof existed and the Whitehouse had to admit that Brennan was their. It is my opinion that a soft go head to Ukraine intell(with extreme deniability) to bring down a passenger Airline and blame it on Russia.

Despicable man (Obama incl) who could easy resolve who fired the missile as the satellite photos were/have/or never be made public as it would show a completely different story as to the one they are spinning. It's the old Sherlock Holmes 'the dog who did not bark' is the true reason why satellite footage supposedly blaming evil Russians launching missiles.

That's why Obama went for a whitehouse ( a political document) report instead of full intelligence e report that would have satellite footage with expert analysis which would show Ukraine culpability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78r1qAHUVwY

Kerry statement to 50 million people that they have the satellite footage.

Ukraine Defense Minister( Ex Head Intell) getting his ducks in a row Rebels / have a new Russian supplied a new....

https://nationalpost.com/news/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-violating-its-airspace-allowing-weapons-across-border-as-crisis-escalates

With the spliced tape ( why would you need one if the Rebels really did it/ release time/tape, hours after planes destruction. So pre planned with the usual suspects.....

Perimetr , Aug 18, 2018 1:10:46 AM | 72
I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack.

[Aug 16, 2018] MH-17 The Untold Story. Exploring possible causes of the tragedy

YouTube
Notable quotes:
"... One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the area. ..."
Aug 16, 2018 | www.youtube.com

John Rooijakkers , 3 years ago

One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the area.

As a Dutchman which country suffers the most is only one thing important: Who did it?

We want to know and bring them to justice. Complete families where shot out of the sky with 80 children on board. Words can not not describe how their loved ones feel.

[Aug 15, 2018] Did the USA intentionally shut down Iranian passenger airliner: Sailors who claim they genuinely confused the Airbus with an F14 should not be allowed inside an operations room ever again, because it would be inexcusable incompetence.

Aug 15, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Mark Chapman August 3, 2018 at 8:30 pm

The Iranian Airbus was also in a recognized air corridor used by civil aviation, and its IFF showed it was both climbing and traveling at a speed which strongly suggested it was a civil aircraft. The VINCENNES had positioned itself underneath an aviation corridor, so that aircraft traveling in a recognized airlane on their legitimate business would appear to be closing the cruiser. The search/acquisition radar on the F14 was the AN/AWG-9 – its electronic signature is extremely distinctive and looks nothing like the search/nav radar on the Airbus. It would be impossible to confuse the two. Sailors who claim they genuinely confused the Airbus with an F14 should not be allowed inside an operations room ever again, because it would be inexcusable incompetence.

Additionally, when the ship's weapon-control acquisition radar locked on to the target in preparation for firing, it would have indicated the target was climbing and not descending – its beam constantly 'paints' the target and registers any change in direction or altitude, since it must guide a missile to it.

But there is no shortage of disastrous situations, often leading to loss of life, in which the American military claims to have simply made an honest and really unavoidable mistake.

Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 11:01 am
Yes, it was epic incompetency combined the desire to put on a show followed by a coverup reminiscent of official investigations of police murder of innocent civilians.

I forgot to mention a surprising claim in the documentary. It indicated that the captain could have aborted the attack right up to the point of the missiles reaching the target. Do control systems for anti-aircraft, anti-ship or ballistic missiles have such an abort option? I was under the impression that once they were launched, there was no turning back. I suppose if the missiles rely on ground guidance then they could be directed away from the target at any time. but is this really an option?

Mark Chapman August 4, 2018 at 5:11 pm
Long-range anti-air missile systems like the Standard SM have a 'kill' function which terminates the engagement (Command Destruct). But what it actually does is terminate guidance, so that the missile no longer has a target reference. A missile whose engagement is thus broken will continue to fly until it runs out of propellant, using its last-known target position as a reference. If the engagement is terminated early, and the missile is not almost at intercept, there's a good chance it will miss. Fired into a busy civil-air corridor, though, there's also a chance it will blind-impact something else that was never an intended target.
Northern Star August 4, 2018 at 11:42 am
Cocsukker in Chief Ronnie Raygun was POTUS at the time small wonder there were no apologies or admissions of culpability:

http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/No_Apologies_for_Downing_Flight_655.htm

http://www.iransview.com/photos-you-may-not-have-seen-iranian-civil-plane-shot-down-by-us-navy/1290/

Northern Star August 4, 2018 at 11:51 am
"in which the American military claims to have simply made an honest and really unavoidable mistake."

Yeah .over and over .

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/al-amiriyya-bombing-iraq-180213101835151.html

Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 1:21 pm
Like the Vietnam war as an honest mistake made by good well-meaning men. Right. The US has not even progressed beyond the denial stage. The fall will be long and hard.
kirill August 4, 2018 at 1:55 pm
My Lai was the result of frustration in US troops in Vietnam. Basically the "manifest destiny" of the USA means that it can never do any wrong. In spite of all the hate projection on Russia and Russians, they do not have such a delusional mindset. In fact, they are excessively attacked from both within and outside Russia about various historical events. We see this with the MH17 hoax and the Iran Air 655 (where is the chorus of anti-US voices on this atrocity?)
Samenleving August 4, 2018 at 9:47 am
Talking of air disasters, does anyone remember the "bijlmerramp" of 1992?
Mark Chapman August 4, 2018 at 5:00 pm
Holy shit. Great catch, this is the first I had ever heard about any of this. Works nicely as a backgrounder also on the reliability of the Dutch government as an impartial investigator of MH17.
Samenleving August 5, 2018 at 4:49 am
Oh, the Dutch! Israel has a hold over them because of WW2. Their political elite based its post-war national image on supposed widespread Dutch resistance to the German occupation (hiding Jews, giving German soldiers wrong directions while being ever so polite, defiant Queen Wilhelmina leading the government-in-exile). Soldaat van Oranje is the book and film which puts this myth across so brilliantly.

In the 60s, the Dutch counterculture started to uncover the ugly truth. Prince Bernhard was an I.G. Farben spy and a Nazi, 75% of Dutch jews perished (highest percentage in western europe). In Amsterdam, jews were a commodity – when they ran out of money to PAY those who hid them, they were SOLD to Dutch police collaborators and rounded up for deportation.

It was always about money. The information in the article below started to emerge when I was living in Holland. I didn't think anything could shock me, but this – and the real story of Friedrich Weinreb – certainly did.

https://archives.globalresearch.ca/articles/LOF209A.html

https://www.haaretz.com/1.4853513

This shameful wartime history was a subject only for the Dutch to discuss among themselves. To the outside world, they promoted Anne Frank, philosemitism, and the habit of agreeing with every foreigner at his own level of knowledge.

Paul Verhoeven, who made the patriotic-myth film Soldaat van Oranje in 1977, told the tale of this widespread collaboration, treachery, and end-of-war vindictive score-settling in the more recent Zwartboek in 2006. Both films are well worth watching.

Mark Chapman August 5, 2018 at 3:22 pm
I'm speechless. Probably the same Thyssen family which is currently half of Thyssen-Krupp: I seem to remember reading that Krupp was investigated for war crimes over Krupp Motor Works.

https://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/

We currently probably know Thyssen-Krupp best for elevators, but they are a big diversified industrial outfit.

ErGalimba August 6, 2018 at 12:25 am
There is an excellent book written in the 60's about Krupp. As a matter of fact there are two well known such books apparently, but I've only read William Manchester's "The Arms of Krupp" which traces the family line back to the 17th century. It's definitely a product of its time, both in terms of style and presentation, and in terms of perspective, but with that in mind it does an excellent job of conveying the essence of the Krupp history, from its humble beginnings, to the family's complicity with Hitler, all the way to the Krupp family's loss of control of the firm in the late 60's, which the author curiously connects, at least marginally, to a form of "private Ostpolitik" on part of the firm in looking to sell large amounts of machinery to the DDR. Its a fine piece of narrative history.

Here's a review: https://patricktreardon.com/book-review-the-arms-of-krupp-by-william-manchester/

yalensis August 6, 2018 at 3:15 am
Wow, confirms my impression that ALL of Western Europe was basically pro-Nazi and fit quite well into the broader Reich.
Exceptions and honorable resistance coming in only onesies and twosies.
Patient Observer August 6, 2018 at 3:27 am
As far as I know, the only truly large scale grass roots resistance to the Nazis were in the Soviet Union and Serbia. As for the rest of Europe, the "conquest" by Germany was little more than an upper management shakeup at worst or, more typically, a friendly management takeover.
Patient Observer August 6, 2018 at 3:23 am
I am also surprised but not really (does that make sense)? The foundational value of Western Europe is racism, class and divine rights of the elite. Nevertheless, it is shocking to learn how those "values" are applied and how the truth is suppressed; least the peasants raise their heads from their iPhones.
Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 5:47 pm
I found it especially disgusting the claim the cargo was just "perfume". I bet they had a good laugh on that one. Those guys are such comedians!
Jen August 5, 2018 at 4:52 am
Wikipedia article on Boeing 747:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747

' During later stages of the flight test program, flutter testing showed that the wings suffered oscillation under certain conditions. This difficulty was partly solved by reducing the stiffness of some wing components. However, a particularly severe high-speed flutter problem was solved only by inserting depleted uranium counterweights as ballast in the outboard engine nacelles of the early 747s.[54] This measure caused anxiety when these aircraft crashed, for example El Al Flight 1862 at Amsterdam in 1992 with 282 kilograms (622 lb) of uranium in the tailplane (horizontal stabilizer) '

So, all Boeing 747 jets contain some depleted uranium as ballast in their wings and the engines in the wings, and in their tails. Gulp,

Patient Observer August 5, 2018 at 7:22 am
Can anyone imagine if a Russian civilian airliner had resorted to a similar solution? Flying Chernobyls! Must be banned from Western airports!

About 4% of all 747s have crashed or otherwise suffered damage beyond repair. That is a lot of depleted uranium. NATO used a great deal of DU in its attack on Serbia as well. Per Wikipdia regarding health effects:

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of concerns about potential long-term health effects.[5][6] Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by exposure to uranium, a toxic metal.[7] The biological half-life (the average time it takes for the human body to eliminate half the amount in the body) for uranium is about 15 days.[8] The aerosol or spallation frangible powder produced by impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites, leading to possible inhalation by human beings.[9]

A 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU."[10]

kirill August 5, 2018 at 7:08 pm
There is hysteria about lead in paint and in gasoline. But somehow uranium is not harmful. Freaking clowns. If you are going to worry about lead, then you better start worrying about other toxic heavy metals such as uranium.
Jen August 4, 2018 at 9:33 pm
Don't forget also that Amsterdam Airport Schiphol was also the place where the Underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab boarded a plane bound for Michigan back in December 2009.

The company in charge of airport security at AAS then was ICTS whose subsidiary Huntleigh USA was responsible for airport security at Boston's Logan International Airport on 11 September 2001.

https://ictsintl.com/about-icts/company-profile

Patient Observer August 5, 2018 at 4:08 am
IIRC, the Underpants bomber did not have a valid passport and had other travel issues as well. A US lawyer who happened to witness the brouhaha swore in an affidavit that the authorities, nevertheless, allowed him to board the plane without a passport.

Having traveled through Schipol airport many times, I can say that the authorities give the appearance of being very security conscious. For example, they almost always interview every passenger on US bound flights. If you appear "nervous", the questioning intensifies. I can not imagine them allowing anyone on the plane without a valid passport. Presumably, US authorities were contacted to confirm the individual would be granted entry. So the security failure (if that what is was) included the US. More likely, it was something else.

Samenleving August 5, 2018 at 5:01 am
Another Schipol Airport story

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/oct/19/news/cl-58951

yalensis August 5, 2018 at 11:30 am
First there was the Shoe Bomber, after which the TSA acquired ever more powers, and people had to start taking off their shoes at the airport.
Conspiracy theory: The Underpants Bomber was also an inside job. The plan was to stage a fake terrorist attack, so that the TSA could force people to start taking their underpants off.
This plan would have worked, but too many important people drew the line at taking off their underpants.
Mark Chapman August 5, 2018 at 5:57 pm
Actually, what appeared right after the Underwear Bomber was the Rapiscan full-body scanner. It did not work at all for its designed purpose, and was easy to fool; moreover, and despite TSA's fervent promises that people's privacy would be respected, and it was not possible to preserve body images after the person had passed through the scanner, those were lies. Probably few were surprised to discover that, as lying has become expected behavior for federal agencies, and all of them do it all the time. Cynicism is a growth industry.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/tsa-screener-confession-102912?o=0

yalensis August 6, 2018 at 2:48 pm
Yup. Every new terror attack led to more infringements of personal liberties and ever-increasing powers for the TSA and Federal Government. It's either (1) a series of false-flag conspiracies; or, at best, (2) locking the barn door after the horse has already escaped.

[Aug 15, 2018] Consider the slapdash investigation also of MH17, in which Ukraine was allowed to get away with shelling the wreckage for days

Aug 15, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Mark Chapman August 1, 2018 at 7:58 am

And that seems to be the theme with modern-day British criminal incidents which are blamed on Russia – all the evidence is destroyed. Perhaps that's why the 'incredibly-toxic nerve agent' vehicle was chosen; so that wholesale destruction of all the major evidence would not seem so odd. And don't think it hasn't been noticed.

Consider the slapdash investigation also of MH17, in which Ukraine was allowed to get away with shelling the wreckage for days – although there was no strategic value to the crash site – and was still given a seat on the investigative board and unfettered (probably unsupervised) access to the evidence, as well as a veto over the publication of any findings. Graham Phillips documented the complete disinterest of the investigative body in pieces of wreckage found in woods and other cover by area residents. Contrast that with the shoulder-to-shoulder meticulous search of neighbouring woodlands in the Lockerbie bombing, which resulted in the 'discovery' of a tiny fragment of circuit board, ostensibly from the timing device, which fingered Libya as the culprit.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/police-chief-lockerbie-evidence-was-faked-1-1403341

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9278875/The-story-of-Megrahis-release-must-now-be-told.html

The FBI operative who identified the fragment as a piece of a circuit board which was supplied only to Libya and the Stasi, the linchpin of the case against Megrahi, was later revealed to be a fraud who had given false evidence in American murder trials and had little or no scientific qualifications. The British and US governments have a demonstrated record as fixers.

[Jul 15, 2018] The US was trying to get EU to sanction Russia for some time. MH17 was what was required to push EU to sanction Russia.

Jul 15, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Jul 14, 2018 9:26:21 PM | 120

Daniel.

Energy was a part of it, but I think MH17 was more to do with keeping Russia separated from Europe. Russia and Europe coming together according to the grand chessboard as something that must not be allowed to occur under any circumstance.

The US was trying to get EU to sanction Russia for some time. MH17 was what was required to push EU to sanction Russia. I have the timeline of events.
From the 17th we were swamped with propaganda, victims bodies left laying in the sun, nasty Russia not letting anyone to the site, bellingcrap tracking how the Russians brought the launcher in, ect ect.

This went on for two weeks, all this time US pushing EU to sanction Russia. Around the 29th-30th EU agreed to sanction Russia. On the 30th, the Ukrainian rada passed a law allowing the Australian and Dutch official teams to go to the site. On the night of the 30th, possibly on the 31st, before the official teams got to the site, the Ukies pushed an armored column up through Torez and into the crash zone. Sporadic fight occurred in and around the crash site from that time, until the Ukies were cleaned up at the Debaltseve cauldron. It was only then the the wreckage was lifted and carried away for reconstruction. For the last few months the Ukies had intermittently shelled the site from Debaltseve. No complaints to the Ukies from Australia nor Netherlands. It was all called Russian aggression.

Have read a bit of the Grand Chessboard now. The section titled Eurasia and also much of the conclusion section.

My takeaway at the moment is that was the era of Economic hegemony backed up by the export of US style democracy. Energy under that system was used if required to keep nations down, stop groups of nations forming together, basically prevent challenges to US economic hegemony. Wars were fought, countries destroyed to ensure the usage of the US dollar. Energy was just one of a number of tools used.

What I think the US is attempting for the coming era - Global energy dominance - is to simply squat on a major source of oil and hold much of Eurasia to ransom.
Doing it this way, the massive US military deployed throughout the world is no longer required, just small covert ops to sabotage competitors. Most of the old institutions needed to manage hegemony no longer required.

Daniel , Jul 14, 2018 8:20:45 PM | 113
Peter et al. I don't remember who posted the link to this wonderful article by KEES VAN DER PIJL Why Was Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down?


It is well worth the read, in general, and it directly discusses your Global Energy Dominance thesis. It also brings it up to date compared to my tracing it back to the 1990s, if not the 1940s.

"In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package' . effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it could enter the EU."

Obviously, this raised the price of Russian gas to European countries.

"Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic."

"As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy'."

And these sanctions were specifically aimed at the Russian energy industry.

"The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally."

So here we have a concerted program, from at least 2009, intended to reduce Russia's role in the Global Energy market, and set up US LNG to compete directly with the RF.

[Jul 09, 2018] MH17 and Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

Jul 09, 2018 | www.unz.com

ALCvA , July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT

I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq.

In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

Kees van der Pijl , Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMT
@ALCvA

I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMT
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "

The key sentence.
Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France.
This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.
Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.

It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda.
Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts.
One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'.
As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that suspect Ukraine is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ?
Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 6:51 am GMT
@ALCvA

In a Dutch talkshow the chairman of the Dutch airline pilots organisation Benno Baksteen mentioned casually that aboard MH370 there were two groups of Chinese technicians specialised in making planes invisible for radar.
Nowhere in the media this was picked up, Benno Baksteen never again was on tv, and, as far as I know, he's no longer chairman.
My theory on MH17: control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, this is possible since early 2001.
It was directed direction Antarctica, until is crashed, lack of fuel.
The second pilot tried to use his mobile phone to make contact, however, this is not possible, a passenger plane flies simply to fast, there was a connection, but before he could say anything the plane was too far away.
Also one of the Sept 11 problems.
So, following the old question 'who benefitted', it is clear for me who the suspect is.

Wizard of Oz , July 9, 2018 at 9:04 am GMT
@anon

Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/

showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz

" DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. "
A weird compelling case.
They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it.
Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
I am not in the least convinced.
The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions.
About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

Tom Welsh , July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMT
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"

That is extremely puzzling – indeed, inexplicable – if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.

As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

The real object of the Western elites – as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media – is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances – they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising – it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.

FB , July 9, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
Wow what a tremendous article from a bona fide scholar

I have not yet seen anywhere such an accurate and succinct overview of the geopolitical history of the post-1991 era anywhere

There is something that is not clear though the author mentions a 'land for gas' deal discussed by Putin and Merkel on the sidelines of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil

' Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine '

I have no idea what this actually means an 'economic rehabilitation plan for whom ? and what does 'normalization' of Crimea's status mean recognition of Crimea's rejoining the Russian Federation ?

I look forward to reading the author's book

[Jul 09, 2018] Why Was Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down, by Kees van der Pijl

Notable quotes:
"... Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17. ..."
"... Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. ..."
"... The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go. ..."
"... To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which 'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure. ..."
"... The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid. ..."
"... If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. ..."
"... Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later ..."
"... weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. ..."
"... Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. ..."
"... The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. ..."
"... 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' ..."
"... Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic. ..."
"... The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. ..."
"... Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure. ..."
"... cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse ..."
"... In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large. ..."
Jul 09, 2018 | www.unz.com

Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and paradoxically, given its possible involvement, Ukraine, presented its second progress report. Like the first report in September 2016, it took the form of a press conference, with video animations supporting the investigation's findings.

This time there was even less to report; the main conclusion was that elements from the Russian 53rd Buk missile brigade were the culprits, a claim already made by the London-based investigative group Bellingcat two years before.

In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?

The JIT press conference was immediately followed by a formal declaration on the part of the Dutch and Australian governments that held Russia responsible. However, JIT member Malaysia dissociated itself from the accusation, whilst Belgium has remained silent.

The obviously over-hasty conclusion, on the heels of the alleged Skripal nerve gas incident in Salisbury and the likewise contested Syrian government gas attack on jihadist positions in Douma, all point in the same direction: Putin's Russia must be kept under fire and there is no time to wait for a court verdict.

In my book Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War. Prism of Disaster (Manchester University Press), I have refrained from entering the slippery terrain of making claims about who pulled the trigger, intentionally or by accident, in the late afternoon of 17 July, or even which type of weapon was used. For the downing of the Malaysian plane has become part of a propaganda war that was already heating up prior to the catastrophe. Instead the book is about what we do know about the events surrounding it, in the preceding months, weeks, and days, indeed even on the day itself. Subsequent events have only underlined that it is this context that lends meaning to the tragedy.

Refocusing US Supremacy After the Soviet Collapse

Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17.

Right from the Soviet collapse in 1991, the US global perspective was articulated in several new strategic doctrines. The first and perhaps foundational one is the Wolfowitz Doctrine, named after Paul Wolfowitz, undersecretary of defence in the Bush Sr. administration, who commissioned a Defence Planning Guidance for Fiscal 1994-'99 (DPG) of 1992. It proclaims the United States the world's sole superpower, which must remain ahead of all possible contenders in arms technology and never again accept military parity, as with the USSR during the Cold War. The newly self-confident European Union, too, was obliquely warned that the US alone would handle global policing.

Additional doctrines, specifying on which grounds armed US intervention might be undertaken and justified, added elements such as humanitarian intervention (a Carnegie Endowment report of 1992, Self-Determination in the New World Order ); it was applied in Yugoslavia and again in Libya. Next, the'War on Terror', originally floated at Israeli Likud/US Neocon conferences between 1979 and 1984, was revived after the collapse of the USSR as the 'Clash of Civilizations' by Cold War strategist Samuel Huntington; Afghanistan and Iraq stand as monuments of the application of this doctrine. Finally, Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard of 1997 specifically dealt with reorganising the former USSR, including Ukraine.

Through the different episodes, NATO was transformed into a global policing structure serving the interests of Atlantic capital. 'Out of area operations', unthinkable in the Yalta epoch, were first tried out against the Bosnian Serbs in the mid-1990s. The enlargement of the alliance into the former Soviet bloc, which began around that time too, was obviously motivated to prevent European departures from US tutelage, hence its bold forward surge. Already in 1994, Ukraine became the first former Soviet republic to join the Partnership for Peace, the newly created waiting room for NATO membership. To quell Russian concerns about the advancing West, the NATO-Russia Founding Act of 1997 laid down that no nuclear weapons and permanent troop deployments would take place in new member states. Yet Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Moldova not long afterwards joined a low-key organisation of former Soviet republics (after the initials, GUAM), another oblique link up with NATO.

Mobilising Georgia and Ukraine against Resurgent Russia

Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. Under his successor, Vladimir Putin, the country began to mutate back to a society led by a directive state, assisted by rising oil prices. After the United States unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002 and announced a missile defence system deployed in the CzechRepublic, Poland, and Rumania, Russia shifted to a more robust international position. The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go.

Yet even a colour revolution means little if there is no accompanying make-over of the fundamental state/society relation. Hence, the incoming policy planning director at the US State Department, Stanford professor Stephen Krasner, and Carlos Pascual, former US ambassador in Kiev, developed a comprehensive regime change doctrine in 2004. This would prove a key element in the subsequent Ukraine intervention. To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which 'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure.

At the Munich Security Conference in January 2007, Putin reminded his audience of the promises made to Gorbachev in 1991 not to expand the Atlantic alliance and warned that further attempts at enlargement (the Baltic states having been included in 2004) would imply great risks. Yet NATO and the EU were inexorably pressing forward. At the Bucharest NATO summit in April 2008 the Americans made the offer of NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, only to have the offer vetoed by Germany and France. Possibly to force the issue, the pro-Western president brought to power by the Rose Revolution in Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, armed and encouraged by the US and Israel, later that year embarked on a military adventure to recapture the breakaway province of South Ossetia. It ended in a complete debacle, as a Russian army stood ready in North Ossetia to deal the invaders a major, if very costly, blow. This, then, was what Richard Sakwa calls, 'the war to stop NATO enlargement'. From now on, every post-Soviet republic tempted to join the Atlantic alliance would have to reckon with Russian protection for groups resisting such integration, irrespective of whether it concerned actual Russians or any other of the almost two hundred nationalities of the former USSR.

The EU-Russian Energy Equation and Ukraine

The gas from Russia that feeds Europe today was discovered back in the 1960s; the Friendship oil pipeline was built in 1964 and the Soyuz, Urengoi and Yamal pipelines followed after West Germany started purchasing Soviet gas. The link-up culminated in 1980 with the contract for a gas pipeline from Urengoi in north Siberia to Bavaria, signed by a heavy-industry consortium headed by Deutsche Bank.

After the collapse of the USSR, Russian gas had to pass through the pipeline grid of independent Ukraine, which in the meantime had become the prey of rival clans of oligarchs. For most of them, gas was the key source of rapid enrichment -- directly, as in the case of subsequent prime minister Yuliya Timoshenko, 'the Gas Princess', or indirectly, by supplying steel pipes for gas transport, as in the case of president Leonid Kuchma's son-in-law, Victor Pinchuk, the 'Pipeline King'. The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid.

After Putin had come to power, he disciplined the Russian oligarchs as part of the restoration of state sovereignty. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the energy oligarch and richest of all Russian billionaires at the time, at the time was buying support in the Duma to build a trans-Siberian pipeline to China; whilst negotiating with ExxonMobil and Chevron about US participation in his Yukos concern, which he planned to merge with Sibneft into the world's largest oil company. In 2005 he was convicted to a long prison sentence. Yukos was brought back into the Russian patrimony via a proxy construction involving state-owned Rosneft and Gazprom, as part of broader subordination of the economy to the state.

Gazprom meanwhile began building alliances to avoid future disruption of supplies via Ukraine and secure its European market. In 2005 it agreed with the outgoing government of Gerhard Schröder to build a pipeline across the Baltic directly to Germany, 'Nord Stream', with a consortium of German companies. Schröder was made the chairman of the board of the joint venture, Achimgaz, and two years later, a South Stream pipeline across the Black Sea to Bulgaria was contracted with ENI of Italy. It was to be extended into south-eastern Europe as far as Austria. In this way Gazprom and the Russian state were outmanoeuvring various EU projects for pipelines aimed at by-passing Russia. Indeed it was the EU's plan to use a Nabucco pipeline across Turkey to connect to the Caspian energy reserves that prompted the $40 billion South Stream project. Romano Prodi, prime minister of Italy, who first discussed South Stream with Putin in late 2006, was offered the chairmanship, which he declined, perhaps in the knowledge the project would become highly contested.

The Eurasian connection by now posed a direct threat to the cohesion of the enlarged Atlantic bloc. Besides Nord Stream and South Stream, Gazprom's collaboration with NIOC of Iran and a joint venture with ENI in Libya set all alarm bells ringing in Washington. Already in May 2006, a few months after the gas shutdown to Ukraine, the US Senate unanimously adopted a resolution calling on NATO to protect the energy security of its members and have it develop a diversification strategy away from Russia. Senator Richard Lugar in a much-noted speech prior to the NATO summit in Riga, Latvia, in November 2006, argued in favour of designating the manipulation of the energy supply as a 'weapon' that can activate Article 5 of the NATO treaty (common defence).

In a report to the European Parliament in 2008, the director of the EurasianPolicyCenter of the Hudson Institute in the US recommended that the EU should assist in liberalising and modernising the Ukrainian grid instead of supporting South Stream. Tension in the Black Sea area, her report noted candidly, might serve the purpose of blocking that pipeline altogether. However, after the 2010 election of president Victor Yanukovych, the front man of the powerful eastern and southern oligarchs, the lease of Russia's Crimean naval base at Sebastopol, home of its Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, so the prospects for stirring up unrest there were mitigated by Moscow's enduring naval preponderance.

Regime Change in Kiev

One aspect of the resurgence of a sovereign Russia was the plan for a Eurasian economic union to rebuild relations with former Soviet republics (Ukraine obtained observer status early on). The EU's Eastern Partnership was a direct response. It was offered to former Soviet republics in 2008, in a gesture that signalled that Europe now effectively acted as a subcontractor to the larger anti-Russian design drafted in Washington. Concretely, the EU offered Ukraine and other former Soviet republics an Association Agreement that also included provisions for the country's alignment on NATO security policy, besides a neoliberal make-over in the spirit of the Krasner-Pascual doctrine. The envisaged reforms would be devastating for the country's existing power structure, not least for the Donbass oligarchs whose front man was Yanukovych. Their heavy industry assets would be swept away by EU competition, the country turned into an agricultural supplier, and Russian gas cut off.

Hence, when both the EU and Russia sought to win over Yanukovych to join their respective blocs and Brussels ruled out the triangular arrangement by which the Ukrainian president had hoped to postpone the choice, he could not but step back from signing the EU Association Agreement in November 2013 and accept a Russian counteroffer. By then, 'Europe' had become a code word for an end to oligarchic rapaciousness, in which Yanukovych and his sons had become involved as well. The president's decision triggered mass demonstrations and occupations, which this time included an armed insurrection by Ukrainian ultra-nationalists in the historically anti-Russian west of the country. It created the space for actual fascists to hijack the protests and prepare a coup. By their use of deadly force at the Maidan central square (ascribed by the coup plotters and in the West to the riot police), the Ukrainian ultras demonstrated they were ready to kill their own compatriots to achieve their aims.

To prevent the situation from getting out of hand completely, the foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland flew to Kiev on 20 February 2014. However, whilst they negotiated a deal with Yanukovych and the opposition, the US and other NATO ambassadors met with Andriy Parubiy, the co-founder of the fascist party of Ukraine and former head of its militia, Patriot of Ukraine . Parubiy, today the speaker of the Kiev parliament, was in command of the armed gangs at the Maidan; two days later these took power in the capital, installing a government of Ukrainian nationalist stripe, selected by US diplomats. Parubiy was appointed secretary of the National Security and Defence Council (NSDC), a key post overseeing all military and intelligence operations, which he continued to hold until three weeks after the downing of MH17. With the Russian-Ukrainian half of the country effectively disenfranchised, the coup was responded to by the secession of Crimea and an armed insurrection in the Donbass. Stirrings of revolt in Odessa and Mariupol would be suppressed with deadly violence, in which Parubiy and other far right figures were directly involved.

Confronting the BRICS in Ukraine

From late March onwards the war party in the United States and NATO began to elaborate a strategy that would make Ukraine the testing ground for a trial of strength with Russia and China. The secession of Crimea and its re-incorporation into the Russian Federation was exploited to evoke the spectre of an impending Russian invasion on several fronts. General Philip Breedlove, commander of US Eucom (European Command, one of nine regional US military commands spanning the globe) and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Saceur), coordinated the Western position with General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Saceur at the time of the Yugoslavia wars. Clark was already advising Kiev forces in eastern Ukraine before the Donbass had actually risen in revolt. On 12April he asked Breedlove whether the NATO commander could not arrange a statement blaming Moscow for the violence because ' if the Ukrainians lose control of the narrative , the Russians will see it as an open door'. Clark then elaborated on the general geopolitical situation, giving further insights into why the war party in the US believed that Ukraine was to be 'held' and chosen as a battle ground to confront Russia and China. No time was wasted on market democracy here. Claiming that 'Putin has read US inaction in Georgia and Syria as US "weakness",' Clark went on to explain that

China is watching closely. China will have four aircraft carriers and airspace dominance in the Western Pacific within 5 years, if current trends continue. And if we let Ukraine slide away, it definitely raises the risks of conflict in the Pacific. For, China will ask, would the US then assert itself for Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, the South China Sea? If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. Neither the Baltics nor the Balkans will easily resist the political disruptions empowered by a resurgent Russia. And what good is a NATO "security guarantee" against internal subversion? And then the US will face a much stronger Russia, a crumbling NATO, and [a] major challenge in the Western Pacific. Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later .

On the weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. The Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO, so called because the use of military force within the country is only warranted under that label) began right after Brennan's visit; Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. Since NATO had earlier implored Yanukovych not to use force against (armed) demonstrators, Moscow now asked the alliance to restrain the coup leaders in turn. But according to foreign minister Lavrov, the answer they got was that 'NATO would ask them to use force proportionately'.

In fact even the oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, elected president on 25 May 2014 to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the coup regime, proved unable to restrain the hardliners. On 30 June, following a four-hour NSDC meeting with Parubiy, interior minister Avakov, and others whose armed followers were demonstrating outside, Poroshenko declared that the ceasefire would be lifted and a new offensive launched. Three days later NATO naval manoeuvres in the Black Sea commenced with US participation and with electronic warfare a key component. On the ground, Kiev's forces made rapid progress, apparently drawing a ring around the large rebel city of Donetsk. NATO had its own concerns: an upcoming summit in Wales in September was expected to capitalise on the trope of a 'Russian invasion', vital after the Afghanistan debacle, and dovetailing with the emerging contest with the BRICS bloc.

The BRICS, coined first as a banker's gimmick, were never more than a loose collection of '(re-) emerging economies', but from Washington's perspective, sovereign entities not submitting to neoliberal global governance are unacceptable. So when on 16 July, the BRICS heads of state, hosted by the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff (removed by a rightwing conspiracy in May 2016), signed the statute establishing a New Development Bank, or BRICS bank, as a direct challenge to the US and Western-dominated World Bank and IMF, the US imposed new sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, specifically targeting the energy link with the EU. The creation of an equivalent of the World Bank with a capital of $100 billion with a reserve currency pool of the same size (an equivalent of the IMF), laid the groundwork of a contender pole in the global political economy challenging the West's austerity regime frontally -- or so it seemed at the time.

Still in Brazil before flying back to Moscow, Russian president Putin on the fringes of the football world cup finals also agreed with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to pursue a comprehensive Land for gas deal. Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine. However, a special European Council meeting convened on the 16th could not reach agreement on whether the EU should follow the American lead this time, since countries with export interests to Russia and dependent on its gas, were balking. Instead, the Council stressed the EU's commitment 'to pursue trilateral talks on the conditions of gas supply from the Russian Federation to Ukraine' in order to 'safeguard the security of supply and transit of natural gas through Ukraine.'

The Downing of Flight MH17 and South Stream

The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum.

Former secretary of state and then-presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton in a TV interview on the 18th called for making 'Russia pay the price' once its culpability had been established. Her to-do list for the EU included, one, 'toughen sanctions'; two, find alternatives to Gazprom, and third, 'do more in concert with us to support the Ukrainians'. The 'Land for gas' negotiations were shelved and on the 22nd Europe dropped the remaining hesitations when it underwrote the US sanctions targeting Russia's role as an energy supplier. As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' .

In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package'. It does not permit gas to be transported to the EU by the company producing it, effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it could enter the EU. Nord Stream had still been exempted from EU competition rules, but the projected South Stream was not, never mind that most contracts with Gazprom had been signed before the Third Energy Package came into force. Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic.

The Crimean secession and incorporation into the Russian Federation obviously played its own role here. Crimea is a historically Russian region; having been assigned to Ukraine by a whim of Soviet party leader Khrushchev in 1954, it never reconciled itself to being part of an independent Ukraine. After the nationalist coup in late February, the status of the Russian naval base in Sebastopol was in the balance. In 1991, the Black Sea had been a Soviet/bloc inland sea, with one NATO country (Turkey) bordering it. Now there were two more NATO/EU countries and two pro-Western, aspiring NATO members on its littoral. So when one week after the coup, three former Ukrainian Presidents, Kravchuk, Kuchma, and Yushchenko, called on the coup government in Kiev to cancel the agreement under which the lease of Sebastopol, home to the Russian Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, the question of who would be able to project naval power over the Black Sea became acute. The question now was whether Russia would be able to provide cover for a large-scale project such as South Stream, or not.

South Stream itself came into the firing line directly. The European Parliament, which never raised the issue of why the February agreement with Yanukovych the EU brokered had been sidelined by the coup, on 17 April 2014 adopted a non-binding resolution opposing the South Stream gas pipeline and recommended a search for alternative sources of gas. On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, the CEO of Rosneft, the Russian state oil company, as well as Gennady Timchenko, whose Volga Group controls Stroytransgaz, the company entrusted with building the Bulgarian section of South Stream. Nevertheless the Bulgarian parliament approved South Stream two weeks after the reincorporation of Crimea, circumventing the EU's anti-trust legislation by renaming the pipeline a 'sea-land connection'.The European Commission then instructed Bulgaria to stop work on South Stream and proceeded to cut off tens of millions of much-needed regional development funds, whilst the US ambassador warned Bulgarian companies against working with Timchenko. A final visit of US Senators John McCain and Ron Johnson, in combination with other punitive measures then led to the cancellation in early June. As Eric Draitser commented at the time, 'South Stream has become one of the primary battlegrounds in the economic war that the West is waging against Russia'.

The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. Putin earlier had hinted at moving the transit of gas for the EU to non-European countries; in August, it was reported there was a Plan B in the works to export via Turkey. On 1 December 2014, during a state visit to Ankara, the Russian president announced that in light of Western sanctions and the refusal of construction permits in the EU, South Stream would be replaced by a 'Turkish Stream' pipeline, besides the existing Blue Stream link. However, in November 2015, a Turkish F-16 shot down a Russian fighter jet over northern Syria, throwing relations between Moscow and Ankara into a deep crisis and entailing the cancellation of Turkish Stream. This was only overcome after the July 2016 coup attempt against Erdoğan, in which Russia sided with the Turkish president, possibly even warning him in advance. Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure.

Regime Change in Moscow?

The MH17 disaster occurred in the context of a deep crisis, in which capitalist discipline as imposed from its historic epicentre in the West, has become primarily predatory, relying to an ever-greater extent on violence.

Speculative financial operations in combination with the 'War on Terror' have spread economic risk and repression at home, war and regime change abroad. Human survival itself has been turned into a global gamble played out over the head of the affected populations for private gain.

The West, led by the effectively bankrupt United States, increasingly relies on force to sabotage the formation of any alternative, something its own social formation can no longer bring forth. Even the most promising, potentially revolutionary IT and media developments coming out of Silicon Valley have been mortgaged by a planetary project of communications surveillance to safeguard US imperial positions.

Back in the 1980s, when it launched the second Cold War, the Reagan administration intended to destabilise the Soviet bloc and bring about regime change in Moscow. This is also the aim of the current, new Cold War. A 2015 Chatham House report, 'The Russian Challenge', discusses this in some detail. Although it concedes that the West cannot have an interest in Russia sliding into complete anarchy, neither should the Putin presidency be protected 'against change, whether managed or violent '. Therefore, 'whether Putin was ousted by an internal coup, by illness or by popular unrest , it would nevertheless be sensible for the West to give further thought to how it might deal with the consequences of regime change in Russia.'

Effective communication with the Russian people and the defence of human values beforehand would be essential for Western credibility Planning for the future ought, lastly, to cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse .

The president of the National Endowment for Democracy, Carl Gershman, in a piece for the Washington Post in October 2016 suggested launching a new, sustained anti-Putin campaign, for which the contract killing of the journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, ten years earlier, might be used as a vignette.

For such a campaign, George Soros' Open Society Foundation can be trusted to have elaborated the 'civil society'/colour revolution scenarios, whilst identifying the groups that might be mobilised for their execution. The OSF plan of action for 2014-17, titled Russia Project Strategy , identifies Russian intellectuals active in Western academic and opinion networks, the Russian gay movement, and others as potential levers for civil society protest against the conservative bloc in power in Moscow. From the OSF documents hacked by the CyberBerkut collective, Alexei Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundation emerges as the key beneficiary, and discussion portals and liberal media such as Echo of Moscow radio station, RBK news agency, and the newspaper Vedomosti, as the preferred channels to disseminate content.

There is no need to repeat that all this is part a powerful offensive to derail the loose contender bloc around China and Russia, which had constituted itself in the face of Western aggressiveness and crisis. The seizure of power in Ukraine as well as the secession of Crimea and the civil war in the east, which has meanwhile cost the lives of more than 13,000 people and displaced a million, as well as economic warfare against Russia by the US and the EU, have brought the danger of a large European war several steps closer. Whether the actual downing of Flight MH17 was an intentional, premeditated act or an accident, whether it involved a jet attack, an anti-aircraft missile, or both, ultimately cannot be established with certainty. Yet both the NATO war party and the coup regime in Kiev, which on many occasions has demonstrated that its ultra-nationalist and fascist antecedents are very much alive, would have been perfectly capable of such an act and had the means for it. Most importantly, they had the motive. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention. If this indeed was their aim, it would also have served the Atlantic bloc's determined and long-standing commitment to force continental Europe into an antagonistic relation with Russia.

In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large.

Kees van der Pijl is a Fellow, Centre for Global Political Economy and Professor Emeritus of the School of Global Studies at the University of Sussex.

[Jul 06, 2018] It used to be that the only things one could be certain of were "death taxes." Now of course we must add to that list the very dependable presence of CIA / State Dept lies parroted by MSM all over the West.

Jul 06, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Gary Weglarz , July 5, 2018 at 1:01 pm

It used to be that the only things one could depend on were "death & taxes." Now of course we must add to that list the very dependable presence of CIA / State Dept lies parroted by MSM all over the West. Lies which are endlessly repeated in defiance of all physical reality and often in direct opposition to actual events in the actual world we live in.

From the Ukraine coup, to Russia-gate, to the "Assad's gassing his own people" regime change propaganda, to the totally surreal Alice in Wonderland Skripnal poisoning nonsense in the U.K, the Western MSM have been as dependable as the rising sun.

They can and do provide fact-free, evidence-free reporting directly from the bowels of the deep state in support of the neocolonial West, including unending support for the never ending resort to mass violence the West relies upon to keep the rest of the planet subjugated -- just as it has for the last 500+ years.

[Jun 28, 2018] Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for

Jun 28, 2018 | www.unz.com

tac , June 6, 2018 at 6:49 pm GMT

@Quartermaster

Russian troops shot down MH-17. deal with it.

From Putin (in an earlier interview in Austria):

Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for. Russian experts "have been denied access to the investigation," said Putin, while Russia's arguments are "not taken into consideration" because nobody "is interested in hearing us out."

Truly sensational new document leak confirms Kiev's direct responsibility for shooting down the Malesian Airlines flight MH17 in Donbass on July 17, 2014. Ukrainian top secret official documents show us that the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) was ordered to hide all evidence from the Ukrainian responsibility and especially everything which could prove Ukrainian air forces involvement in executed secret state terrorism operation.
The documents are leaked by Ukrainian official to the Sovershenno Sekretno newspaper. Russian and English translations from the orginal articles are available with copies of the leaked documents, which show written orders given by Ukrainian top officials concerning concealing of the operation, shooting down the flight MH17 .

http://www.vietatoparlare.it/leaked-documents-ukrainian-air-forces-shot-down-mh17-confirms-conspiracy-and-guilt/

This article first published on July 30, 2014 contradicts the substance of the recently released Dutch Safety Board Report. We are bringing it to the attention of our readers in view of the soon to be released BBC TV documentary, which suggests that the MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet fighter.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

Although the Dutch report concluded that the Russian-made BUK surface-to-air missile with a 9N314M warhead brought down the Boeing 777, it did not mention which side was responsible for firing the missile (International Business Times, March 8, 2016

The evidence amply confirms that Malaysian Airlines MH17 was not brought down by a surface to air missile. It was brought down by military aircraft .

http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324

Joint Investigation Team Includes, Excludes Surprising Members

With the Dutch leading the investigation, the logic being that the flight originated from the Netherlands and the majority of the passengers were Dutch, it has formed a Joint Investigation Team (JIT). At the onset of its creation it seemed obvious that Malaysia would too be included, considering it lost the second largest number of citizens to the disaster and the plane itself was registered in Malaysia. Instead, JIT would end up comprised of Belgium, Ukraine, and Australia, specifically excluding Malaysia.

Joint Investigation Team Includes, Excludes Surprising Members

With the Dutch leading the investigation, the logic being that the flight originated from the Netherlands and the majority of the passengers were Dutch, it has formed a Joint Investigation Team (JIT). At the onset of its creation it seemed obvious that Malaysia would too be included, considering it lost the second largest number of citizens to the disaster and the plane itself was registered in Malaysia. Instead, JIT would end up comprised of Belgium, Ukraine , and Australia, specifically excluding Malaysia.

Malaysia was both surprised and has protested its exclusion from JIT , and has repeatedly expressed a desire to be included directly in the investigation.

https://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/

Carroll Price , June 12, 2018 at 12:07 am GMT
@tac

I will never understand why Russia was foolish enough to turn the plane's black box over (with no strings attached) to Dutch authorities. You would think they would have, at the minimum maintained physical possession, while allowing one or more neutral parties to examine and publish it's contents.

[Jun 26, 2018] "Conspiracy theories" are usually quite simple to solve: verify that there was a conspiracy verify that there was a cover-up verify that mass media is in the cover-up

Jun 25, 2018 | www.unz.com

j2, June 25, 2018 at 7:59 am GMT

I have found that these "conspiracy theories" are usually quite simple to solve: verify that there was a conspiracy verify that there was a cover-up verify that mass media is in the cover-up

- verify that there was a conspiracy
- verify that there was a cover-up
- verify that mass media is in the cover-up

Then, who can make a cover-up in media?

- the mob, no - the CIA, can try but really cannot do it long - the US President, like for instance JFK, Nixon, Clinton, no - the ones, who control the media and suppress publications they do not like, yes

Then only, why?

- the assassination of the president succeeded, so something major in the US politics changed - only one major thing changed

Solving these problems is easy, but the opponents behave as lawyers in kangaroo courts: deny everything, play a moron, refer to judicial decision, start repeating childish mumble like wackawackaconspeeracy.. and so on.

jilles dykstra , June 25, 2018 at 10:49 am GMT

@j2

Indeed, as with MH17.
Literally overnight EU sanctions against Russia were possible.
And, as with Kennedy, what exactly happened, we do not know, and, I fear, will never know.
On the afternoon of the day of the disaster prime minister Rutte phoned vice prime minister Asscher, who was on vacation in the south of France.
Rutte asked him to call back on a landline 'so that Russia could not listen in'.
Fool Asscher told this in a tv show.
Nobody has asked Asscher what was so secret a few hours after the disaster that the Russians should not know.

Why was the Diana 'accident' ?
I suppose to prevent that the future British king would have a Muslim stepfather.

Why was Anna Lyndh killed accidentally ?
She was to be the next Swedish prime minister, in favor of a EU economic boycott of Israel

Why was the phoney Hess suicided ?
Had he talked WWII history would have to be rewritten.

Why was Kelly suicided ?
He knew quite well Blair's nonsense about the 45 minutes WMD's

And so on and so forth

[Jun 24, 2018] The Saker publishes some interesting news re the MH17 tragedy:

Jun 24, 2018 | www.unz.com

annamaria , May 23, 2017 at 1:15 pm GMT

The Saker publishes some interesting news re the MH17 tragedy:
"SBU [Security Service of Ukraine] orders to destroy all evidence of the conducted special operation MH17″ http://thesaker.is/sbu-orders-to-destroy-all-evidence-of-the-conducted-special-operation-mh17/
by Scott Humor: " If you want to know my opinion that hasn't changed since 2014. The Boeing flight MH17 was shot down by the Ukrainian air force fighter jets, but not necessarily piloted by Ukrainian pilots. It was a CIA and NATO operation to frame Russia. Most likely the Dutch government was a part of this operation. Now, they are trying to hang all the dogs on Waltzman -Poroshenko, because neither the Dutch monarchs, nor the CIA would fancy to be implicated in this crime."

The whole edifice of sanctions against Russian federation was built on the MH17 case. A few people come to mind. First is the Secretary of State John Kerry who had proclaimed that Russians were guilty of the shooting before any investigation took place.
Then there is a Department of War Studies, King's College London, which became famous for inviting Eliot Higgins (an expert in selling ladies underwear) to lecture the College' students on Higgins' specialty – the russophobic stuff, which was debunked on numerous occasions but which is still dear to the hearts at the Department of War Studies, King's College London. http://www.kcl.ac.uk/aboutkings/principal/Indexnew.aspx https://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departments/warstudies/people/professors/rainsborough.aspx
And then there is a circus of Dutch investigation: https://www.rt.com/news/375105-mh17-investigation-dutch-journalist/ and this http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/dutch-prosecutor-does-not-answer-questions-on-russian-supplied-radar-data/
The Dutch/Ukrainian scoundrels are now facing this (which is just a beginning): https://www.rt.com/news/374893-trump-letter-mh17-investigation/ "The open letter, signed by 25 journalists, former civil aviation pilots and researchers from Germany, the Netherlands and Australia, was posted on the website of Joost Niemoller – a Dutch journalist who publicly challenged the current investigation into the ill-fated Flight MH17, which was downed over Ukraine in July 2014. "

[Jun 14, 2018] Problem with US and British MSM control of narrative

Highly recommended!
Jun 14, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

PROBLEMS WITH THE NARRATIVE. No conclusive evidence to blame Russia for MH17 says Malaysia Transport Minister ; no evidence that Russia poisoned Skripals says German int source. What does Malaysia know? It's been kept out of the inquiry . As to the Skripals, well the G(7-1) says " no plausible alternative explanation ". (Once you've dug the hole, I guess you have to plausibly live in it.)

[Jun 13, 2018] How False Flag Operations Are Carried Out Today by Philip M. GIRALDI

Highly recommended!
When the media is controlled by people responsible for false flag operation chances to use investigation to discredit this false flag operation, no matter how many evidence they have is close to zero
In other word false flag operation is perfect weapon for the "sole superpower" and due to this status entail very little risks.
Notable quotes:
"... Today's false flag operations are generally carried out by intelligence agencies and non-government actors including terrorist groups, but they are only considered successful if the true attribution of an action remains secret. ..."
"... False flags can be involved in other sorts of activity as well. The past year's two major alleged chemical attacks carried out against Syrian civilians that resulted in President Donald Trump and associates launching 160 cruise missiles are pretty clearly false flag operations carried out by the rebels and terrorist groups that controlled the affected areas at the time. ..."
"... Because the rebels succeeded in convincing much of the world that the Syrian government had carried out the attacks, one might consider their false flag efforts to have been extremely successful. ..."
"... The remedy against false flag operations such as the recent one in Syria is, of course, to avoid taking the bait and instead waiting until a thorough and objective inspection of the evidence has taken place. The United States, Britain and France did not do that, preferring instead to respond to hysterical press reports by "doing something." If the U.N. investigation of the alleged attack turns up nothing, a distinct possibility, it is unlikely that they will apologize for having committed a war crime. ..."
"... The other major false flag that has recently surfaced is the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury England on March 4 th . Russia had no credible motive to carry out the attack and had, in fact, good reasons not to do so. ..."
"... Unfortunately, May proved wrong and the debate ignited over her actions, which included the expulsion of twenty-three Russian diplomats, has done her severe damage. Few now believe that Russia actually carried out the poisoning and there is a growing body of opinion suggesting that it was actually a false flag executed by the British government or even by the CIA. ..."
"... The lesson that should be learned from Syria and Skripal is that if "an incident" looks like it has no obvious motive behind it, there is a high probability that it is a false flag. ..."
Apr 26, 2018 | www.strategic-culture.org

False Flag is a concept that goes back centuries. It was considered to be a legitimate ploy by the Greeks and Romans, where a military force would pretend to be friendly to get close to an enemy before dropping the pretense and raising its banners to reveal its own affiliation just before launching an attack. In the sea battles of the eighteenth century among Spain, France and Britain hoisting an enemy flag instead of one's own to confuse the opponent was considered to be a legitimate ruse de guerre , but it was only "honorable" if one reverted to one's own flag before engaging in combat.

Today's false flag operations are generally carried out by intelligence agencies and non-government actors including terrorist groups, but they are only considered successful if the true attribution of an action remains secret. There is nothing honorable about them as their intention is to blame an innocent party for something that it did not do. There has been a lot of such activity lately and it was interesting to learn by way of a leak that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has developed a capability to mimic the internet fingerprints of other foreign intelligence services. That means that when the media is trumpeting news reports that the Russians or Chinese hacked into U.S. government websites or the sites of major corporations, it could actually have been the CIA carrying out the intrusion and making it look like it originated in Moscow or Beijing. Given that capability, there has been considerable speculation in the alternative media that it was actually the CIA that interfered in the 2016 national elections in the United States.

False flags can be involved in other sorts of activity as well. The past year's two major alleged chemical attacks carried out against Syrian civilians that resulted in President Donald Trump and associates launching 160 cruise missiles are pretty clearly false flag operations carried out by the rebels and terrorist groups that controlled the affected areas at the time. The most recent reported attack on April 7th might not have occurred at all according to doctors and other witnesses who were actually in Douma. Because the rebels succeeded in convincing much of the world that the Syrian government had carried out the attacks, one might consider their false flag efforts to have been extremely successful.

The remedy against false flag operations such as the recent one in Syria is, of course, to avoid taking the bait and instead waiting until a thorough and objective inspection of the evidence has taken place. The United States, Britain and France did not do that, preferring instead to respond to hysterical press reports by "doing something." If the U.N. investigation of the alleged attack turns up nothing, a distinct possibility, it is unlikely that they will apologize for having committed a war crime.

The other major false flag that has recently surfaced is the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury England on March 4th. Russia had no credible motive to carry out the attack and had, in fact, good reasons not to do so. The allegations made by British Prime Minister Theresa May about the claimed nerve agent being "very likely" Russian in origin have been debunked, in part through examination by the U.K.'s own chemical weapons lab. May, under attack even within her own party, needed a good story and a powerful enemy to solidify her own hold on power so false flagging something to Russia probably appeared to be just the ticket as Moscow would hardly be able to deny the "facts" being invented in London. Unfortunately, May proved wrong and the debate ignited over her actions, which included the expulsion of twenty-three Russian diplomats, has done her severe damage. Few now believe that Russia actually carried out the poisoning and there is a growing body of opinion suggesting that it was actually a false flag executed by the British government or even by the CIA.

The lesson that should be learned from Syria and Skripal is that if "an incident" looks like it has no obvious motive behind it, there is a high probability that it is a false flag. A bit of caution in assigning blame is appropriate given that the alternative would be a precipitate and likely disproportionate response that could easily escalate into a shooting war.

Tags: CIA

[Jun 05, 2018] Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17

Notable quotes:
"... We are still unable to get answers to some questions regarding the activities of Ukrainian air forces in that region, at that place and at that time. ..."
Jun 05, 2018 | www.youtube.com

MH17 (from the transcript Interview with Austrian ORF television channel )

Armin Wolf: One of the most complicated issues with regard to Russia is Ukraine. In 2014, Flight MH17 was shot down in Ukraine, 290 people died. The international investigative commission announced a few days ago that the jet was shot down by a Russian army missile system, that it was a convoy from Russia that had come to the Ukrainian insurgents in eastern Ukraine. There is a video; there are telephone conversations and dozens of eyewitnesses. You have been saying that this is not true for about a year but practically nobody believes your words.

Are you not thereby putting the veracity of Russian statements at stake? Maybe it is time to acknowledge that the insurgents in eastern Ukraine used Russian military equipment to commit that horrendous crime?

Vladimir Putin: I want to note that both sides to the conflict – the Ukrainian army and even Ukrainian volunteer battalions who are accountable to nobody save their commanders, and the Donbass militia, the armed units in Donbass – they all use Soviet and Russian-made weapons. All of them. The two sides have all sorts of systems – both firearms, aviation, and anti-aircraft systems. All of them were made in Russia.

Armin Wolf: But now they know what missile it was: a Buk system missile. It was a Russian army brigade in Kursk. This is known for a fact, yet you still deny it. Would it not be better to admit that the missile had indeed come from Russia? Would it not be better to officially acknowledge that Russia supported the insurgents in the east of Ukraine with weapons?

Vladimir Putin: If you collect all your patience and let me finish, you will find out my view on this issue.

As I said, both sides use Russian-made weapons, and the Russian army has exactly the same systems the experts are talking about, which were certainly manufactured in the former Soviet Union or in Russia. This is number one.

Number two. Russian experts have been denied access to the investigation, our arguments are not taken into consideration, and nobody in the commission is interested in hearing us out. Conversely, the Ukrainian side, which is a party interested in the results of the investigation, has access to it. Meanwhile, it is responsible at least for failing to prohibit civilian aircraft to fly in the conflict zone in violation of ICAO's international norms.

We are still unable to get answers to some questions regarding the activities of Ukrainian air forces in that region, at that place and at that time. The tragedy we are talking about is terrible, and I feel immensely sorry for the victims and their families, but this investigation must be objective and comprehensive.

Just a second, please, do not rush. Let me speak, otherwise we are going to have a monologue on your part instead of an interview.

Armin Wolf: Nevertheless, let me say briefly – yes, we know where the missile came from. But what do Holland, Australia or Malaysia have to gain by blaming Russia if it was not a Russian missile that belonged to the Russian army?

Vladimir Putin: We do not see it that way; we have a different point of view. You now listed countries that allegedly believe that it was a Russian missile and that Russia is implicated in that terrible tragedy. I regret to disappoint you. Quite recently, Malaysian officials declared that they do not see Russia's complicity in that tragic event; they have no proof that Russia is implicated. Are you really not aware of that? Did you not see the statements by Malaysian officials?

What do we think about this issue? If we really want to get to the bottom of things in that horrendous event and reveal all the factors that would allow us to render a final conclusion, all arguments should be taken into account, including the ones offered by Russia. And it would be entirely fair for Russian experts to have access to the investigation.

Armin Wolf: The international investigative commission now claims that they have in fact taken into account all arguments. Many people do not believe Russian arguments because a few years ago in Crimea you said that the famous "green men," the fighters in green uniforms without identifying insignia, were all local self-defense forces. But a little later it was revealed that they were indeed Russian soldiers. After that, you admitted many times that those were Russian army personnel even though you denied that earlier. Why should we believe you now?

Vladimir Putin: Now that you mentioned Crimea. Do you know that in the mid 2000s, right in the vicinity of Crimea, a Russian civilian jet was downed over the Black Sea? It was done by the Ukrainian army during a drill. And the first reaction of the Ukrainian officials was that Ukraine had nothing to do with it. A civilian plane was shot down en route from Israel to Russia. Everyone onboard died, of course. Ukraine flatly denied its involvement in that terrible incident but had to admit it later. And why should we believe Ukrainian officials? So in response to your question about Crimea, I put the ball back in your court.

Armin Wolf : I am not talking about Ukrainian officials, I am talking about you. You said many times in 2014 that you used the Armed Forces in Crimea to block Ukraine's interference. Later you admitted though that the Russian army was in Crimea, something you had denied before.

Vladimir Putin : Russian forces have always been stationed there. Look, I would like you to try to understand what was actually happening there, not just repeat these things mechanically. Russian forces have always been present in Crimea. Our military contingent was there.

One second, please, let me finish. Do you want to fire questions non-stop or hear my answers?

The first thing we did when the events in Ukraine began What kind of events? Let me tell you now, and you will say yes or no. It was an unconstitutional armed coup and seizure of power. Yes or no? Will you tell me?

Armin Wolf : I am not an expert on the Ukrainian Constitution.

Vladimir Putin : You do not have to be an expert on Ukraine; you just need to be an expert on law, on the constitutional law of any country.

Armin Wolf : I would not like to talk about Ukrainian politics, but about Russian politics. Allow me to phrase it differently. What should happen in order for Russia to return Crimea to Ukraine?

Vladimir Putin : There are no such conditions and there can never be.

I will tell you why. You interrupted me again, but if you actually let me finish, you would understand what I mean. I will still do it.

When the unconstitutional armed coup took place in Ukraine, and power changed hands by force, our army was legally deployed in Crimea – under the agreement on our military base there. The first thing we did was increase our contingent to guard our Armed Forces, our military facilities, because we immediately saw that they were being threatened. That is where it all began. I told you with confidence that there was no one else there, but our Armed Forces were there legally under an agreement.

Let me finish, for God's sake. ( Speaks German .) Seien Sie so nett, lassen Sie mich etwas sagen. [Please be so kind as to let me say something.]

Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for. Russian experts "have been denied access to the investigation," said Putin, while Russia's arguments are "not taken into consideration" because nobody "is interested in hearing us out."

Ukraine, meanwhile, has been given access to the probe.

[May 28, 2018] Blockbuster The MH 17 False Flag, One of Many, Published in Russia by Gordon Duff

Sure looks now like a false flag operation. One of the sign of false flag operation is media hysteria immediately after the event. This holds true for MH17 tragedy.
Notable quotes:
"... MH 17 is simply another false flag operation, this one aimed at Russia as have so many recently. Russia's foreign ministry has begun addressing false flag terrorism and the US policy of staging terror attacks to blame on others after years of standing by silently. ..."
May 28, 2018 | www.veteranstoday.com

By Gordon Duff with New Eastern Outlook, Moscow

...The airliner was being directed on the same path used by SU 25 and SU 27 jets hitting the cities in the Donbass and Lugansk pockets.

The date now is May 25, 2018. BBC and Reuters have just announced that Russia is "liable" for the events of July 17, 2014, based on an investigation no one understands.

Malaysia had asked for an independent investigation but was warned off by the United States, told to keep quiet. I was part of the team Malaysia had sought to investigate the downing of MH 17, along with VT editor, Washington attorney Thomas Mattingly and a group of former FBI agents under ISI Corp.

Instead, the investigation was done by a Dutch group. It is clear, more than clear, that the United States was aware Kiev had down the plane and was leading a coverup, protecting Kiev and planning to use the incident to blame Russia.

Recent events makes this abundantly clear.

Blaming Russia is a way of life in Washington. Let's look at Ukraine and try to understand what was going on at the time.

... ... ...

The Dutch now claim that Russia had "infiltrated" air defense groups into Ukraine and chose to shoot down a Malaysian airliner for no imaginable reason. That motive, "no imaginable reason," should be a problem for both governments and the media, not that I use the term "should."

However, there is evidence, considerable evidence, that MH17 was downed by aircraft. We are going to examine this hypothesis and the reaction to it when it was brought up back in 2014.

.... ... ...

Conclusion

MH 17 is simply another false flag operation, this one aimed at Russia as have so many recently. Russia's foreign ministry has begun addressing false flag terrorism and the US policy of staging terror attacks to blame on others after years of standing by silently.

[May 27, 2018] Russia 'absolutely' rejects Dutch Aussie accusations it's responsible for MH17 downing

Notable quotes:
"... "Of course, without being able to be a full participant, Russia does not know to what extent the results of this work can be trusted," ..."
"... "responsible for its part in the downing of flight MH17" ..."
"... "The [Dutch] government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia accountable," ..."
May 27, 2018 | www.rt.com

Moscow has rejected any involvement in the crash of flight MH17 in Ukraine after the Netherlands and Australia declared Russia "responsible" for the deployment of a BUK missile system that downed the jet in 2014. Moscow neither accepts nor trusts the results of an international investigation into the MH17 crash as it was not allowed to take part in it, according to the Russian president's spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

"Of course, without being able to be a full participant, Russia does not know to what extent the results of this work can be trusted," he said.

Peskov echoed the position of the Russian president Vladimir Putin who earlier said that, although Ukraine was included in the probe, Russia was barred from participating in establishing the truth.

Asked if he can confirm that Russia vehemently denies any involvement in the MH17 downing, Peskov replied "absolutely."

Earlier on Friday, Amsterdam and Canberra said Russia is "responsible for its part in the downing of flight MH17" following a Thursday press conference of the Dutch-led International Investigation Team (JIT). The latter concluded that a BUK missile system from a Russian 53rd brigade was transported to eastern Ukraine and used to down the passenger plane with more than 300 people onboard. The system was then said to have returned to Russia.

"The [Dutch] government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia accountable," Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs Stef Blok said in a statement. However, the Russian military earlier said that not a single weapons system crossed the border.

The allegation that the missile belonged to the Russian military had earlier been debunked by the Buk manufacturer, Almaz-Antey. Its real-time experiment showed that the projectile which hit MH17 (Boeing 777) was from an earlier generation and is no longer in service with the Russian military. It was found that the plane was likely shot down using an old 9M38 missile, not the newer type 9M38M1 with distinct butterfly-shaped metal fragments, which were allegedly recovered by the Dutch Safety Board.

Moreover, Almaz-Antey's findings , which analyzed the angle from which the projectiles entered the cockpit of the ill-fated flight, showed that the most probable location of the launch site could be only on Kiev-controlled territory. Untampered Russian radar data provided by Moscow led to similar conclusions.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 Ukrainian forces kept around 20 Buk systems, according to the Russian Defense Ministry. The military also stressed that Moscow has not supplied any new missiles to Ukraine since then

[May 25, 2018] British Hostage Video Of Yulia Skripal was released on or nearly on the same day as a 'conclusive' report was issued stating a BUK missile launcher belonging to Russia was escorted by Russian military from Russia into Ukraine and used to shoot down Malaysia flight MH 17

May 25, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Quentin , May 24, 2018 10:58:32 AM | 30

This is all so delicious coming on or nearly on the same day as a 'conclusive' report was issued stating a BUK missile launcher belonging to Russia was escorted by Russian military from Russia into Ukraine and used to shoot down Malaysia flight MH 17. So there take that Russia even though you were not allowed to defend your version of events at the 'fair-and-balanced' international investigation. 'So what are you going to do about it?' Ukraine gets a free pass again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-missile-ukraine-2014-russia-military-netherlands-deaths-investigation-a8366721.html

Coincidentally the World Football Cup begins in Russia in about three weeks. Who can honestly claim the West doesn't have all its ducks/dicks in a perfect row?

Julia Skripal's photo shoot was just embarrassing, so contrived and forced, a PR agency's hack piece.

'The mother and grandmother of Sergei and Julia Skripal aren't allowed to get in touch with them?', you say. 'Now you're really must think I'm stupid. In the West we are FREE.'

[Apr 10, 2018] The photograph of the wing is particularly interesting to me. The impression I get is that the scoring along the wing towards the pilot's cabin seems to be cut by a projectile that is stable in flight and is smooth on its surface.

Apr 10, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Tidewater , 4 years ago

I don't want to respond to such a fine philosophical essay like a police reporter hack--which I have been-- but I have just discovered that an airlines pilot named Peter Haisenko argues that the Malaysian flight was brought down by cannon fire. In a follow-up to his original blog post he reports that he has taken a look at the whole question of this ground attack plane's capabilities. By 1984 Jane's had evaluated the SU-25 as having a maximum flight altitude of 10,670 meters. All a pilot would need would be oxygen; which brings to mind that at 29,000 feet a climber on Everest can survive with an oxygen bottle. Global Research --which I read cheerfully but with caution-- has picked up on Peter Haisenko and on the Canadian investigator's remarks.

The photograph of the wing is particularly interesting to me. The impression I get is that the scoring along the wing towards the pilot's cabin seems to be cut by a projectile that is stable in flight and is smooth on its surface. I would guess that shrapnel would have left an entirely different marking line. It would cut more erratically and deeply. I have a piece of wood made into a small table that is a vivid reminder of what a projectile--a rifle bullet in this case--will do when the bullet hits one plane on almost exactly the same plane. Leaving an accident which is a little startling to see. My piece of wood is quite beautifully carved by design on most of it and with an ancient patina; it came from an Buddhist stupa in a temple in Burma that was destroyed in WWII, evidentally burned. It took me a while to figure out why that wing photo bothered me.

I think this thing is going to be as big as the JFK assassination.

zanzibar , 4 years ago
David

Thanks for this very thoughtful note!

At the link below Pater Tenebrarum writes that an OSCE monitor notes the evidence of holes on the cockpit which seems like machine gun fire. This fits closely with TTGs note of an Ukrainian fighter trailing MH17. Apparently, there is a theory that the fighter aircraft and a missile launcher on the ground were coordinating to bring down an aircraft that had Putin returning from South America.

http://www.acting-man.com/?p=32159

With respect to the lead up to the Great War, I am glad you bring up Colingwood. I agree with two of his points - one, events spin out of control; two, "..the hard sciences had caused in man's ability to control nature, and the complete absence of any corresponding increase in man's ability to understand and control human affairs." I have noted for some time that while the human being has developed his intellect substantially, he himself has not "evolved" much in the past 5,000 years. There is an immense role that ambition, ego, greed, fear, jealousy, hate and other human traits

[Apr 10, 2018] Boeing angle of MH17 crash

Apr 10, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

VietnamVet , 4 years ago

Anna-Marina,

My Dad worked for Boeing. I was shocked when I read that they were not sending representatives to the crash investigation. They're the real experts on the 777. As a major stakeholder they know everything the US government knows; maybe more. Either the corporate need to distance itself from the crash overrides their responsibility to help to find the truth and tell the families why their loved ones died and prevent it from occurring again or the US government told them to stay away. This and the muddled information released so far adds to my feeling of unease that the shoot down was a purposeful act in the rush to war with Russia instead of a terrible accident caused by Ukraine allowing commercial flights to fly over a combat zone.

Anna-Marina , 4 years ago
This new article at CounterPunch suggests a new line of explanation for the MH17 tragedy.
"There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pock-marked. It almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven't seen anywhere else."
One of the questions that this article posts is why Boeing does not want to investigate the downing of its own plane. Yet the most puzzling part of the story is the US complete lack of cooperation re satellite images of the plane and its demise.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/04/was-malaysia-flight-17-shot-down/

[Apr 10, 2018] Clearly, the US govt is leading this propaganda attack. If the US has evidence LET THEM PRESENT IT. The Russian have presented their evidence for inspection.

Nothing changed for all those years. There is no real progress in the investigation. Dutch proved to bee complete stooges, following the party line. The Idea that Russian somehow got BUK battery (several units of it as it includes a separate radar truck) into very densely populated area of Donbass with a lot of intelligence assets managed to get it back to Russia undetected is still circulating. No visible smoke trail from the rocket is another interesting fact. The fact that Western media instantly started shouting "Russia, Russia" is also undisputable. And that fact the USA hide the evidence is undisputable too. To say nothing about behaviour Ukrainian authorities, who had hidden everything related to the incident with total impunity. Looks more and more like another JFK story.
Notable quotes:
"... Its very, very notable that the incessant drone of accusations coming from these western corporate media outlets are based on 0, none, Nil, No "evidence" at all -only more baseless accusations from the state department and nameless, faceless, "official" cited in corporate media reports, with the same TOTAL lack of substantiation. ..."
"... The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that if indeed elements among the Kiev authorities are responsible, it will be very difficult to suppress the fact. ..."
"... One thing I can be sure of, if there was any evidence supporting a shooot down by a fighter, it will vanish once the CIA and MI6 are through with it. ..."
Apr 10, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

MiKE , 4 years ago

"The Su25 and the shadowy companion plane which Russian claim exist"....

are recorded on Russian military signals evidence (radar tracking). This is not some "he said she said" CNN equivalency. Also, I believe the (increasingly credible) air - air shoot-down hypothesis involving these two (tracked ,recorded, identified) Su25 aircraft, makes the claim that the crime was committed by at least 1 (Su25) firing its 30mm automatic cannons ("machine guns") and NOT a rocket or missile. Somehow you failed to mention that either in your report or in a reply to a comment that brought up the OSCE reps' "machine gun" statement - specifically. Also your constant insistence on characterizing all Russian media as "possibly state controlled" is, I think, a misleading strategy.

Is Russian media "state controlled" ? Is the Russian media that you refer to "state controlled" ? Moreover, after witnessing the staggering, sickening, completely unprofessional US/EU media propaganda storm being unleashed,I have no doubt at all that British and American corporate media are "state controlled". They have done nothing but widely disseminate prepared US state department accusations and PR releases .

Its very, very notable that the incessant drone of accusations coming from these western corporate media outlets are based on 0, none, Nil, No "evidence" at all -only more baseless accusations from the state department and nameless, faceless, "official" cited in corporate media reports, with the same TOTAL lack of substantiation.

Clearly, the US govt is leading this propaganda attack. If the US has evidence LET THEM PRESENT IT. The Russian have presented their evidence for inspection.

az , 4 years ago
Thank you for this excellent post and discussion.

"if indeed elements among the Kiev authorities are responsible, it will be very difficult to suppress the fact."

Here (

Play
David Habakkuk , 4 years ago
Tidewater,

As a sometimes television current affairs 'hack' who benefited enormous from having spent time as a graduate trainee on the Liverpool Echo, and later spent happy hours delving into the underworlds of local politics in London and Birmingham, the last thing I would be stupid enough to do would be to contemptuous of a 'police reporter hack.' A major problem with much of the MSM today is that those producing it are no longer down-to-earth, in the way that old-style newspaper reporters commonly were.

The piece to which 'Ingolf' links below, and also if I recall right an earlier comment he posted, argues that the impression that the patterns of damage match those one would expect from cannon is unfounded. It is also not clear to me whether an Su-25 operating at the limits of its altitude range, could use a cannon effectively (as distinct from a rocket.) That said, at the moment it seems to me sensible not to rule anything out until we have unambiguous evidence.

As to the scale of the furore which may be about to break, I think you could well be right. It may still be that I, and TTG, and others on this blog sceptical about the conventional wisdom about the MH17 affair are barking up the wrong tree. But if we are not, Western governments may have backed themselves into a corner. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that if indeed elements among the Kiev authorities are responsible, it will be very difficult to suppress the fact.

Ingolf , 4 years ago
For those who haven't yet seen it, the Saker has a "detailed expert analysis" of the MH17 downing.

I've only read some of it so far (it's a 25 page PDF report) but it looks useful.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/detailed-expert-analysis-of-mh17-downing.html

walrus, 4 years ago

I second what VietVet said, I am totally surprised that Boeing would not send a representative to the crash site and be part of the investigative team. This omission smells to high heaven.

Boeing advice would be needed for, among other things, the determination of the point or points of impact of the warhead, the failure modes of the various parts of the structure and the sequence in which they failed.

This information is needed to correlate the debris field with the point of impact of the missile and to determine the ultimate critical issue of the direction from which the missile was travelling when it detonated.

I am already suspicious that this was a Ukranian false flag operation because I believe that initial indications are that the missile may have come from behind the aircraft from Ukrainian territory. Shrapnel evidence suggests that the cockpit and nose took the brunt of the blast. Since the operating principle of the proximity fuze is to detonate at the point of closest approach to the target - identified when the range, as measured by the fuze radar, just starts to open, then the explosion near the front of the plane is consistent with an approach from the rear. If the missile approached from the front - rebel held territory, I would have expected the blast to be towards the rear of the aircraft.

I would hope that someone with more technical knowledge can disprove my speculation.

One thing I can be sure of, if there was any evidence supporting a shooot down by a fighter, it will vanish once the CIA and MI6 are through with it.

[Apr 08, 2018] I would add to your list of possible MH17 culprits several global corporations; the one's I have in mind, cannot be completely identified to a single nation in the world

Apr 08, 2018 | www.unz.com

smellyoilandgas.com , April 5, 2018 at 7:49 pm GMT

@Hepp

I think the question of what is best for the world is best left to the 8 million that live in it; humanity should decide on its government every ten years.

The nation state system fosters uncontrolled capitalism. The nation state system is a middle man between the global wealth of a very few and the slave poverty of the mass of 8 billion.. The problem with capitalism is that it is such a powerful system of economics nothing can block its path.

Uncontrolled, capitalism is like the game of monopoly: in that game, payment is due to the capitalist owner at most landing spots on the playing board; unless the party landing on such spot already owns the spot landed on with each turn at play. In the end, the game of monopoly wipes out everyone; it transfers everyone's wealth to but one player, the winner. Everyone else is a broke worthless loser.

Without internationally enforced rules that prevent powerful, large mega monopolies corporations (the public is unable to vote to change the corporate nature or to restructure by voting those Board of Directors who mange the mega-corporation) to reach the size of nation states and to amass the much more capital to burn than most nation states, nothing is going to change. Bottom up insistence that nations write laws to control the mega-capitalist powered, monopoly secured corporations go unheeded because no politicians or group of politicians is strong enough to write laws that the nations can enforce, hence mega corporations are virtually operating in a completely lawless environment { meaning mega corporations can do whatever they want }. There is no nation powerful enough to reel in many very large corporations; those certain few corporations own and enjoy the security from competition that monopolies guarantee in most of the extremely profitable markets in the world.

No one, including Russia and China can expect to survive trying to compete against the masses of capital, the earning capacities and the wealth building power of monopolies. Monopolies rule the nation state law makers , not the other way around. If I were you, I would add to your list of possible MH-17 bashers several global corporations; the one's I have in mind, cannot be completely identified to a single nation in the world because they are so large they own the lawmakers, most of the assets and all of the earning power in many of the nations.
One the 9/11 clouds is the possible corporate involvement.

[Apr 08, 2018] The Netherlands objected most to sanctions, our export to Russia. The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.

Apr 08, 2018 | www.unz.com

jilles dykstra , April 4, 2018 at 2:26 pm GMT

There are three possibilities: Rebels shot, our thought they shot, at an Ukrainian bomber, and hit a passenger plane A Ukrainian bomber used the passenger plane as shield, in the expectation that the rebels would not fire A western plane deliberately shot down the plane, possibly a stealth plane.

That the plane was ordered to fly lower by Kiev air control might support the last two possibilities.

In any case, neither the rebels, nor the Russians had any interest in shooting down the plane. The western interest at the time was clear, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions, our export to Russia. The 300 deaths changed that literally overnight.

What never has been explained was the telephone call from prime minister Rutte to vice prime minister Asscher, at the time on holiday on vacation in the south of France.

Rutte phoned Asscher on his mobile, but asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.

What at the afternoon of the crash was so secret that the Russians were not allowed to hear, I have just the suspicion that Rutte told Asscher that the Russian had to be blamed.

The Dutch investigation, with suspect Ukraine, drags on until now.

... ... ...

[Apr 08, 2018] A person who lost someone in that crash would like to know the truth, rather than "official" US BS.

Apr 08, 2018 | www.unz.com

Rurik , April 2, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMT

@AnonFromTN

Don't they want to know who killed them?

no, not if you pay them enough money

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-compensation-could-hit-1nbspbillion-in-latest-disaster-for-malaysia-airlines/news-story/6b553d929d3de6fba845dfd0ae346562

(just like with 9/11)

http://www.latimes.com/la-110804compensation_lat-story.html

the wreckage of MH17 was obviously riddled with machine gun fire

only Ukraine could have done that

the way the zio-west immediately blamed Putin proved it was all a lie

it was the zio-west that foisted the political strife in Ukraine

it was the zio-west that allowed the Ukraine to have veto power over the "investigation" into the shooting down of MH17

the whole thing is a devil's farce

just like all the other atrocities and war crimes committed in this century by the zio-fiend

AnonFromTN , April 3, 2018 at 12:55 am GMT
@Rurik

You are even more cynical than I am. I have no doubt that the politicians, Dutch, US, Australian, Ukrainian, and all others, are totally amoral and unscrupulous. Naturally, they are all venal. As the US saying goes, "honest politician is the one who, once bought, stays bought".
But I thought that a person who lost someone in that crash would like to know the truth, rather than "official" US BS. It would be sad to think that none of almost 300 people on board had anyone who cared about them more than about money. If I were related to any of the victims, I'd feel vindictive. I'd want to kill whoever is responsible, not whoever the liars found it expedient to blame. And I'd make damn sure I know who planned this provocation and who executed it in cold blood.

[Apr 08, 2018] The conversation (mentioned in this article) between the Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton.

Apr 08, 2018 | www.unz.com

Tom Van Meurs , Website March 31, 2018 at 3:36 am GMT

In my blog 'contraviews' http://www.contraviewing.blogspot.com post 148 you will find a recording of the conversation (mentioned in this article) between the Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton. Go to the year 2014 in the margin and scroll down to post 148. One may find more interesting articles on MH17.

[Apr 08, 2018] The manipulation and exploitation of the MH17 incident by the Dutch seems to rival that of Skripal incident by the UK

Russian foreign ministry presentation provided sensational new details during ambassador briefing claiming that the USA know about the fact that Boing was short down before Boeing fall on he ground. And deliberately hide satellite information that they have about the incident that establishedd the sequnce of events in this shooting Live Russian MFA summons foreign ambassadors to a meeting on Skripal case -- statement - YouTube
Notable quotes:
"... The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data. ..."
Apr 08, 2018 | www.unz.com

JR , March 26, 2018 at 7:18 am GMT

The lengths Dutch Prime Minister publicly went (serving quote 'geopolitical interests') to get the EU-Ukraine association agreement ratified the clear rejection by advisory referendum notwithstanding, ought to make any well informed reader suspicious of how far Rutte went out of public sight to serve those same 'geopolitical interests' by manipulating both the investigation and public opinion in relation to MH17.

Rutte recently demonstrated his fealty to those 'geopolitical interests' again. When asked if new evidence was presented in the Skripal case to justify the Netherlands support for the UK, Rutte answered that 'such evidence wasn't necessary because May had stated that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible'.

The Dutch Government got a UN mandate to perform the investigation and as such that part of the investigation had to be transparent.

Clearly to serve those 'geopolitical interests' the Dutch separated the technical investigation from the legal liability investigation. The technical investigation was performed under the UN mandate and the second legal liability investigation was organized separate from any UN mandate.

The Dutch, Australian, Belgium government colluded with the Ukrainians to organize a 'Joint Investigation Team' which under the cover of performing a legal investigation refuses any transparency and at regular intervals hints that indictments are close but not there yet.

Also the Dutch Transport Safety Board technical investigation has concluded that the UkSATSE should have closed the Air Control area above Eastern Ukraine, but the Dutch government has thus far never taken any action to hold the Ukrainians responsible for that failure even when 3 days before MNH17 a AN-24 was downed from 6500m and UkSATSE (joint civil-military ATC) continued to control some 100 civil air liners a day over that area.

The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data.

JR , March 27, 2018 at 6:40 am GMT
Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.

The question is "Who is liable?".

Shooting down aircraft above a war zone is SOP. If a civilian air liner is guided and controlled over such war area where 3 days earlier an AN-24 has been downed from 6500m one really ought to question the competence and liability of the ATC involved. That ATC authority UkSATSE as a joint civil-military ATC was fully informed about the situation and still continued to guide some 100 civil air liners ad day for three days over that war zone.

Shooting down a civil air liner over a war zone is tragic but not necessarily always a crime. There was no motive for the East Ukrainians, but as shown by the relentless exploitation by the Kiev puppet regime this Kiev regime most definitely had a motive.

Any liability investigation with the Ukrainian secret service as an investigator like in the Dutch/Australian/Ukraine Joint investigation Team simply can't be trusted to even look for the truth. The JIT was set up with the intention of evading the transparency requirements associated with the UN mandated investigation.

CanSpeccy , Website March 29, 2018 at 2:42 am GMT
@JR

Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.

The question is "Who is liable?".

In which connection, as may already have been noted:

Malaysia Airlines filed a flight plan requesting 35,000 feet through airspace but was told [by Ukrainian air traffic control] to fly at 33,000

AnonFromTN , March 30, 2018 at 6:54 pm GMT
Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:

1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.

2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.

3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.

4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.

5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose is cover-up.

6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.

One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.

JR says: March 31, 2018 at 5:18 pm GMT • 100 Words
@AnonFromTN

Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.
5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.

See my comment nr 230: There is not one investigation. The Dutch manipulated this into two separate investigations. There was a technical UN mandated transparent Dutch Safety Board investigation. The Dutch organized a second criminal investigation together with Australia, Belgium and the Ukraine and instigated A Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2017/07/05/jit-countries-choose-the-netherlands-for-mh17-crash-prosecution

The manipulation and exploitation of the MH17 incident by the Dutch seems to rival that of Skripal incident by the UK.

https://www.government.nl/search?keyword=mh17

Rurik, April 2, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMT • 100 Words
@AnonFromTN

Yes. I can understand the Dutch government: they serve the US overlords first and foremost. They don't give a hoot about the lives of ordinary Dutch people. What I do not understand is the behavior of the people who lost loved ones in MH17 crash. Don't they want to know who killed them? Don't they object to being grist for the mill of amoral and cynical politicians?

Don't they want to know who killed them?

no, not if you pay them enough money

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/mh17-compensation-could-hit-1nbspbillion-in-latest-disaster-for-malaysia-airlines/news-story/6b553d929d3de6fba845dfd0ae346562

(just like with 9/11)

http://www.latimes.com/la-110804compensation_lat-story.html

the wreckage of MH17 was obviously riddled with machine gun fire

peterAUS , April 3, 2018 at 6:18 pm GMT

@AnonFromTN

Well, actually I believe that those points do not contradict my theory.
You:

1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation

Me:
1. Donbass freedom fighters were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. They saw, on their monitors, what happened.
You:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. If they could prove that Donbass freedom fighters were the perpetrators, these pictures would have been publicized by the US more than any Hollywood movie. My conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
Me:
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. They could've pointed to actual surveillance capabilities of the US, either way.
You:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it
Me:
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. The investigation was supposed to be as impartial as possible. Interested parties were kept out as much as possible.
Etc .

No need to keep see-sawing this. Being done plenty of times before and it is being done, as we speak, all over Internet.

You believe what you will; I do the same.

Moving on.

AnonFromTN , April 3, 2018 at 7:41 pm GMT
@peterAUS

Laughable arguments.

1. If anyone on the US/Ukraine side saw on their screens anything that could place the blame on Donbass freedom fighters and/or Russia, they would have presented their evidence straight away. The US and its vassals (e.g., UK) go into lengthy hysterics even when they have no evidence whatsoever (US elections in 2016, Skripal affair, etc).

2. The US was so eager to hide its surveillance capabilities that Kerry blabbered about it from the get go. Then presented zilch. Very believable.

3. If Malaysia was excluded to make the investigation impartial, than Ukraine, Netherlands, Australia, and UK should have been excluded, as well. The investigation should have been conducted by a party who has no stake in the matter. Instead, it is conducted by one of the prime suspects and countries who lost citizens in that crash. For four years! With non-disclosure agreement, to boot. Inspires lots of confidence.

I am sure your responses to the rest would be just as "convincing".

expat47 , April 7, 2018 at 1:51 pm GMT

Why on earth would Russia gain anything from shooting down the plane? Western sanctions assault on the Russian Federation had been ongoing for some time before this incident. The US is willing to kill its own people, ala 9/11. The deep state is malicious and dangerous and it is the alt internet that makes our use of same to glean information that we would never to see in the MSM. The US has been trying to provoke Russia into a war and Putin hasn't taken the bait. The senseless idiots in the west don't seem to realise that Russian nuclear weaponry is supperia to our own and life on earth would surely end; except for the wealthy elites who run our country who would be safe in our D.U.M.B's

[Apr 04, 2018] Russian aviation experts: Israeli-made Python air-to-air missile (fired from Israeli-upgraded Su-25 Scorpion) may have downed MH17

Apr 04, 2018 | russia-insider.com

AM Hants Bad boy!! Otto!! 15 hours ago ,

Have you seen this. Off topic, but, might interest you. How fast does a BUK fly? How fast does a python fly?

Missile Allegedly Used to Down MH17 Invisible Due to Speed – Dutch Prosecutors... https://sputniknews.com/eur...

Bad boy!! Otto!! AM Hants 14 hours ago ,

No clue how fast a BUK flies.....As for snakes, I can´t recall any that have developed the ability to fly, and I´m certain Pythons haven´t. I`m not saying they don´t, but I just never come across one that does....I´ll look into it.

Hmm an invisible BUK missile. Well it could be....There is yet anyone to come forward that has seen it taking off. Not a single person......No sound......No contrail......Nothing.....No surprises it wasn´t seen by radar. It wasn´t there.

AM Hants Bad boy!! Otto!! 13 hours ago ,

Here is a flying python.

Russian aviation experts: 'Israeli-made Python air-to-air missile (fired from Israeli-upgraded Su-25 Scorpion) may have downed MH17'... https://www.sott.net/articl...

Govert AM Hants 4 hours ago ,

Going off-topic, your hobby, isn't it, Anne-Marie? Anyway, as your quoted sputnik article writes:

"However, Russian arms manufacturer Almaz-Antey, which developed the Buk missile system, has rejected these findings, saying that three simulations showed that the missile was launched from the Zaroshchenske area, which was controlled by Ukraine's army at the time of the downing"

Clearly the (their, A-A's) discussion is not what type of missile system. They (or rather their bosses) only want the missile to have been launched from "Ukraine's army controlled" area. Why do you want to keep the fantasies and lies alive? Btw, here is the official news release: https://www.om.nl/actueel/n... Link to a more detailed report near the bottom.

Bad boy!! Otto!! Govert 3 hours ago ,

LMAO...How did I know I´d find you here trolling AM?

Anyway AA has always said IF it was a BUK missile, and as no Russian officials in any capacity has been allowed near the wreckage in the hands of the lying war criminal dutch government, It would be impossible for them to make a conclusive analysis.

Btw, We are familiar with your "reports"....Not worth the paper they are written on.

And finally banderite, as this case has yet to see the inside of a court of Law, it is all bullshit till it does.

Any dates for that court hearing yet?...And I do mean an open and transparent court hearing and not some kangaroo court favoured by the Brits when they "tried" the Litvenko case.

Govert Bad boy!! Otto!! an hour ago ,

"Banderite"? What or who is a "banderite"?

So A-A - that has co-operated with the DSB in their investigation into what downed the MH17- did an expensive research on their own, doing experiments, writing a report, giving presentations, came to their conclusions about the type of BUK and the launch location, and then would say "IF it was a BUK". Ha ha ha, now that is a ridiculous conditional statement! Only fools believe that. "If it was a BUK"... LMAO... It was a BUK, cockroach, and it came from Russia in the night before, with a Russian crew. They fired at what they thought to be a Ukrainian military aircraft and killed almost 300 innocent people, almost 200 from my country. IF the "case will not see the inside of a court of Law", it is due to the obstructions and the protection that these cowards get from your paradise that has already vetoed a UN tribunal and announced that it will not hand over any suspects, cockroach.

Bad boy!! Otto!! Govert an hour ago ,

That´s more like it banderite...I do like a bit of a spirited debate.

However...:-( it does seem to be the case you have spent more time concentrating on calling me a "cockroach" than concentrating on what this debate is about....I did tell you many times you aren´t terribly bright, and as such I would suggest you concentrate on giving more thought to the question in hand rather than thinking of childish insults in order to get some sort of angry response from me...ain´t gonna happen banderite...you are nowhere near clever enough.

Any how banderite poofter...the main thrust of my argument, was the fact, no Russian official in any capacity was allowed anywhere near the wreckage in the possession of the lying war criminal dutch government to make an accurate analysis of what may have brought the aeroplane down.

Can you confirm this is the case? And try not to obfuscate...You will not be able to throw me off the scent. Oh, btw....How is russie russie?...Poor sod got banned the other day. :-(
LMAO!!!!
Didn´t slavko get banned as well?
Holy crap...we´re running out of trolls.

Govert Bad boy!! Otto!! 7 minutes ago ,

I would suggest you concentrate on giving more thought to the question in hand rather than thinking of childish insults You took the words right out of my mouth.... thanks, cockroach.

Russian officials? LMAO. Wasn't the area where the plane crashed controlled by "separatists" and vacationers? To whom did these bell boys want to hand over the "black boxes" initially? What were these bell boys doing with - and near the pieces of wreckage in those first days?

Again, no idea what or who a "banderite" is, nor what or who a "russie russie" is, but looking at the definition of what is seen as a "cockroach" here, you are exactly that, a cowardly cockroach even. However... it does seem to be the case you have spent more time concentrating on discussing banned commenters than concentrating on what this debate is about. (What happened to "Otto310" by the way?) Thanks.

Bad boy!! Otto!! AM Hants 6 hours ago ,

ahhh, that sort of Python. I do so apologise, I must admit to feeling a little wary last night.It had been a long day. I thought you mean´t the wriggly hissing type of Python.
Well, it is now a new day, and feeling refreshed and ready for a this new day after a good nights sleep, I am now a little more compis mentis than last night.
I have seen that report.To me there is a flaw. It does not mention bullet holes, and there are definitely some holes in the aircraft that are perfectly round, depending from which angle the bullets were fired from, which could not have come from a BUK.
There are two reports that corroborate the other.
This one is probably the first to go against the official line, by Peter Haisenko.
https://www.anderweltonline...
and then there is this one.
https://cassad-eng.livejour...
Both are very good and seem to make a lot of sense.

Btw, normally I would be bidding you a good night.
But not now...So...Good morning AM!

[Apr 02, 2018] I think the Kiev side had been directing airliners across the war zone along the path of planned bombing runs to allow Ukraine military jets to fly the same course *below* the airliner and use the airliner's much bigger radar signature (huge compared to a military jet) as protection i.e. if a missile was fired and missed it might lock on to the airliner instead.

Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

anon Disclaimer , January 5, 2015 at 10:57 am GMT

The Ukraine military shot down another airliner some years before when a missile aimed at a training drone missed and locked on to the airliner.

I think the Kiev side had been directing airliners across the war zone along the path of planned bombing runs to allow Ukraine military jets to fly the same course *below* the airliner and use the airliner's much bigger radar signature (huge compared to a military jet) as protection i.e. if a missile was fired and missed it might lock on to the airliner instead.

I don't think the US side wants to admit their allies were using airliners as human shields and the Russians don't want to admit their surface to air missiles ignore civilian IFF (as they must in a war zone) hence why both side's stories feel unconvincing.

Apart from the politics it's important because if missiles treat civilian IFF as foe then it means airliners need to be kept a very long way from any mid-tech war zone.

Jonathan Revusky , December 6, 2014 at 7:42 am GMT
@AlMiller

The parallels are pretty clear. In the case of both 9/11 and this Malaysian airliner, the western mainstream media had their story ready to go as soon as it happened. And then when all the evidence starts accumulating that this story is untrue, cannot possibly be true, they simply ignore all of it. In fact anybody who brings it up is immediately tarred as a "conspiracy theorist".

That's what about it. (Shrug)

[Apr 02, 2018] The Kiev regime had no need to put anti-aircraft batteries in the area at all, but they did!

Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

MarkU , February 8, 2015 at 1:07 pm GMT

@Anonymous

Re: "The Ukraine would have no need to shoot AA missiles since so called Rebels had no air force at the time "

The Kiev regime had no need to put anti-aircraft batteries in the area at all, but they did!

Please everybody, get real.

Its been months since the shooting down of MH 17 and despite all the accusations made by the US government and the Kiev regime at the time, not one single piece of credible evidence has been produced. Obviously the information is being suppressed, and even more obviously it is not being withheld to protect the rebels or the Russians.

Captain John Charity Spring MA , February 8, 2015 at 10:56 pm GMT
Alternative theory.

MH17 was downed near Soledar and Artimovsk.

Under Artimovsk there is a gigantic weapons cache. Is it possible that the plane was downed so that Western investigators could look into an inventory of that site and assess what the Separatists removed from said weapons dump? Chemical, Nuclear, Biological weapons stocks?

The HQ for the crash site investigation was set up in Soledar which is a very close to the Salt Mine cave entrance.

The passengers were just collateral damage in the contest over weapons stocks.

[Apr 02, 2018] Malaysia has been cut out of the investigation, why? For refusing to prejudge the outcome?

Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

Ronald Thomas West , Website November 29, 2014 at 12:42 pm GMT

Malaysia has been cut out of the investigation, why? For refusing to prejudge the outcome?

http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/28/mh17-malaysia-s-barring-from-investigation-reeks-of-cover-up/

[Apr 02, 2018] Yet another theory of SU-25 role in shooing

Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

Sure Thing , March 7, 2015 at 3:48 am GMT

And here is an assessment of the non-surface-to-air-BUK (or 'red herring') theory, going with the pics and reports of two fighter jets -Ukrainian – seen on each side of MH-17 :

Ray B. March 07, 2015
Here is my analysis, from an ex-Boeing aero engineer standpoint:
The Boeing 777 was initially at 33,000 feet. The aircraft, therefore, was above the Su-25's ceiling, as listed at wikipedia. (Service ceiling: 7,000 m (22,965 ft) clean,
5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons) I am aware of the Comments both that this is an artificial, CIA-changed figure and that Su-25 pilots have reached at least 30,000 feet with supplemental oxygen. For the purpose here, it does not matter. I am presuming the Su-25 was carrying only two R-60 air-to-air missiles, which are low drag. So, the service ceiling in this case would have been around 21-22,000 feet. (The upgrades to the Su-25 did not include engine or aerodynamic changes, so are unlikely to have increased the ceiling.) The 777 was well within reach of the R-60s, though (66,000 ft, Mach 2.7). As a non-maneuvering, transport aircraft, it would have been laughably easy to hit. I would have salvoed both missiles, both for increased hit-chance and to avoid coming back with only one missile (very noticeable, as opposed to just empty pylons). The above would tie-in with ret. Col Zhilin's testimony. Most reports indicate the accompanying-fighter was closing from the rear, which is the most advantageous for infrared guidance. With infrared guidance, the missile would home-in directly on the hottest area – the engine exhaust. The warhead would probably detonate in the exhaust cone or adjacent to it. In the Boeing 777, the engine is slung well out in front of the wing. The expanding-rod warhead would rip up the engine but probably not take out the wing or flight control cabling. The 'hit' (or hits) might indeed be survivable. Today's jet engines are built with FAA-mandated 'containment shields'.

They are meant to contain high-velocity fan/compressor/turbine blades if something causes them to shear off. They are basically armored 'cans' surrounding the rotating

parts. A missile detonating inside this 'can' might have the expanding-rods contained, rather than punching through the nacelle and into the fuselage. If detonating on the far side of the 'can' from the fuselage, much the same result Also, Zhilin says, " the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left." This would be the direct result of losing thrust on the left engine. The pilots were probably more concerned with staying in the air (under control) than their heading http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/
commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf "Engine-out altitude capability (MTOW, ISA + 10°C) Basic: 16,200 ft Maximum Weight: 15,600 ft" After the 777's engine was hit and disabled by the R-60, the 777 would have descended to around 15-16,000 feet. That is the standard one-engine-out 'cruise' altitude as above. It may have been lower with the damage.

If I were the pilot, I would have been on a circling descent through and below that altitude, looking for a nearby airport or good field. Since the R-60 has
such a small warhead, the pilots may not even have known they were hit by a missile and assumed a simple engine-out problem. That could account for the lack of initial reporting.

This descent would have put the 777 well within the Su-25's (wikipedia) altitude capability. So, it would have been possible at that point to conduct a 'strafing' run with the 30mm cannon. With the 777 turning, that may have presented the opportunity for whatever angle shot the fighter pilot wanted. As various Commenters have noted, there seems to have been a concentration on the cockpit and avionics bay. (Grrr.)

Unfortunately, with the 'secrecy agreement' in place, I see no way that any important evidence will be revealed, barring a Snowden-like mass-release by someone with a Conscience
Reply

Am off to Asia Times with this too.

[Apr 02, 2018] BUK missle smooketrail is demonstratively absent

Notable quotes:
"... One of the most salient points I find, is the fact that no vapour trail had been observed or photographed from the ground. A vapour condensation trail remains visible for quite some time and is visible for I would think at least 15 minutes. ..."
Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

Contraviews , Website October 2, 2016 at 10:31 pm GMT

@Contraviews
Someone may already have commented on it, but it's impossible to read all the comments.

One of the most salient points I find, is the fact that no vapour trail had been observed or photographed from the ground. A vapour condensation trail remains visible for quite some time and is visible for I would think at least 15 minutes.

Surely in this day and age when virtually everyone carries a cell phone capable of making pictures, such evidence should be available. But apparently there is not.

As a test it would be interesting if Russia would in front of the international press test fire a BUK missile.

I would very much appreciate comments on this particular aspect of the catastrophe. Thank you in anticipation.

The JIT in its 29/9 report showed a picture of a smoke trail. If that had been the smoke trail of the BUK that alledgedly shot down MH 17 than that picture would without a shadow of doubt been splashed over al the western media within hours. Hundreds may by thousands would have seen it and scores of pictures and videos would have been taken. The very fact that JIT now comes up with a smoke trail (which could have been taken any where) proves that it is a fake. If that is a fake all the other pictures are most likely fakes. Mr Eliot Higgins should have done better.

Ronald Thomas West , Website June 3, 2015 at 11:13 am GMT
Russia states they have a Ukrainian witness backing the SU 25 combat jet shoot-down of MH 17

http://rt.com/news/264545-mh17-investigators-key-witness/

Sure Thing , March 12, 2015 at 11:29 pm GMT
Still think it was a BUK? Think again.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-malaysian-airlines-mh17-boeing-was-shot-down-examination-of-the-wreckage/5435094

[Apr 02, 2018] The manipulation and exploitation of the MH17 incident by the Dutch seems to rival that of Skripal incident by the UK

Apr 02, 2018 | www.unz.com

Ronald Thomas West , Website November 27, 2016 at 1:24 pm GMT

Despite the Dutch whitewash (report) which could only be called the 'likely' & 'probably' 'we love to point any finger at Putin report', material at odds with the western line continues to come out:

https://southfront.org/mh17-ukraine-plane-crash-additional-details-revealed-exclusive-photos-from-the-scene/

Ronald Thomas West , Website January 30, 2017 at 10:10 am GMT
The Dutch investigators "can't decipher" the radar data provided by the Russians. As well, Dutch police have confiscated from journalists raw footage of new witness interviews that will no doubt be shared with Ukraine as a party to the investigation, endangering those persons who provided the information on condition of confidentiality:

https://www.rt.com/news/375556-mh17-radar-investigation-decipher/

Ronald Thomas West , Website December 28, 2017 at 10:10 pm GMT
Leaked documents from the government at Kiev on the MH 17 shoot down by Ukrainian jet fighter:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/leaked-documents-ukrainian-air-forces-shot-down-mh17-confirms-conspiracy-and-guilt.497767/

Ronald Thomas West , Website March 19, 2018 at 4:41 pm GMT
Man identified as pilot who shot down MH 17 'commits suicide'

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201803191062694528-voloshin-mh17-suspected-suicide/

^

JR , March 26, 2018 at 7:18 am GMT
The lengths Dutch Prime Minister publicly went (serving quote 'geopolitical interests') to get the EU-Ukraine association agreement ratified the clear rejection by advisory referendum notwithstanding, ought to make any well informed reader suspicious of how far Rutte went out of public sight to serve those same 'geopolitical interests' by manipulating both the investigation and public opinion in relation to MH17.

Rutte recently demonstrated his fealty to those 'geopolitical interests' again. When asked if new evidence was presented in the Skripal case to justify the Netherlands support for the UK, Rutte answered that 'such evidence wasn't necessary because May had stated that it was highly likely that Russia was responsible'.

The Dutch Government got a UN mandate to perform the investigation and as such that part of the investigation had to be transparent.

Clearly to serve those 'geopolitical interests' the Dutch separated the technical investigation from the legal liability investigation. The technical investigation was performed under the UN mandate and the second legal liability investigation was organized separate from any UN mandate.

The Dutch, Australian, Belgium government colluded with the Ukrainians to organize a 'Joint Investigation Team' which under the cover of performing a legal investigation refuses any transparency and at regular intervals hints that indictments are close but not there yet.

Also the Dutch Transport Safety Board technical investigation has concluded that the UkSATSE should have closed the Air Control area above Eastern Ukraine, but the Dutch government has thus far never taken any action to hold the Ukrainians responsible for that failure even when 3 days before MNH17 a AN-24 was downed from 6500m and UkSATSE (joint civil-military ATC) continued to control some 100 civil air liners a day over that area. The Dutch simply accepted that the Ukraine lost all relevant radar data.

JR , March 26, 2018 at 1:22 pm GMT
@anon

http://uksatse.ua/index.php?s=94a63ae71adf1e881cd1901e2276a734&act=Part&CODE=247&id=272&lang=en

News
4th June 2014
UkSATSE ensures safety in Ukrainian sky under any conditions
Ukrainian State Air Traffic Services Enterprise (UkSATSE) informs that the enterprise keeps on providing the whole range of air navigation services. It ensures flight safety in the airspace of Ukraine, airdromes of Ukraine and in the international airspace over the high seas at the relevant level. Moreover, UkSATSE ensures trouble-free operation of branches of Joint Civil-Military System of Air Traffic Management of Ukraine irrespective of foreign interference in work of air traffic services bodies in Crimea and at the East of Ukraine.

JR , March 27, 2018 at 6:40 am GMT
Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.

The question is "Who is liable?".

Shooting down aircraft above a war zone is SOP. If a civilian air liner is guided and controlled over such war area where 3 days earlier an AN-24 has been downed from 6500m one really ought to question the competence and liability of the ATC involved. That ATC authority UkSATSE as a joint civil-military ATC was fully informed about the situation and still continued to guide some 100 civil air liners ad day for three days over that war zone.

Shooting down a civil air liner over a war zone is tragic but not necessarily always a crime. There was no motive for the East Ukrainians, but as shown by the relentless exploitation by the Kiev puppet regime this Kiev regime most definitely had a motive.

Any liability investigation with the Ukrainian secret service as an investigator like in the Dutch/Australian/Ukraine Joint investigation Team simply can't be trusted to even look for the truth. The JIT was set up with the intention of evading the transparency requirements associated with the UN mandated investigation.

CanSpeccy , Website March 29, 2018 at 2:42 am GMT
@JR

Actually this "Who shot down MH17?" is the wrong question.

The question is "Who is liable?".

In which connection, as may already have been noted:

Malaysia Airlines filed a flight plan requesting 35,000 feet through airspace but was told [by Ukrainian air traffic control] to fly at 33,000

AnonFromTN , March 30, 2018 at 6:54 pm GMT
Thinking people smelled a rat in the case of MH17 straight off. No sensible person can fail to smell it now. Just a few considerations:
1. Donbass freedom fighters (and, by extension, Russia) were blamed by the US, its vassals, and its client states like Ukraine even before the debris cooled down. Only the perpetrators could have known designated "guilty party" without any investigation.
2. Satellite pictures promised by Kerry four years ago never materialized. The only logical conclusion is that the perpetrators were not those accused by the US, and the pictures would have revealed real perpetrators, which the US did not want to happen.
3. Malaysia, the owner of that airplane, was not allowed to participate in the investigation. Apparently, someone was afraid that it might not play ball. This can only happen when the "investigators" meant to hide the truth, not to reveal it.
4. The UK, Australia, the Netherlands, and one of the suspects, Ukraine, signed a non-disclosure agreement. It makes no sense unless one or more of the signatories is guilty.
5. The "investigation" is going on for four years, longer than any investigation in the history of civil aviation. The experience shows that a lot less time is needed to uncover the truth. Thus, the length of this "investigation" shows that the real purpose is cover-up.
6. Ukraine never provided the records of pilots' communications with air traffic controllers, or any other air traffic control records. Thus, it must have had something to hide.
One can continue in this vein, but what's the point? Suffice it to say that all international airlines drew their conclusions: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like they avoid Iranian and North Korean airspace. Sapienti sat.
Tom Van Meurs , Website March 31, 2018 at 3:36 am GMT
In my blog 'contraviews' http://www.contraviewing.blogspot.com post 148 you will find a recording of the conversation (mentioned in this article) between the Estonian Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet and EU Foreign Policy chief Catherine Ashton. Go to the year 2014 in the margin and scroll down to post 148. One may find more interesting articles on MH17.
JR , March 31, 2018 at 5:18 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN

See my comment nr 230: There is not one investigation. The Dutch manipulated this into two separate investigations. There was a technical UN mandated transparent Dutch Safety Board investigation. The Dutch organized a second criminal investigation together with Australia, Belgium and the Ukraine and instigated A Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2017/07/05/jit-countries-choose-the-netherlands-for-mh17-crash-prosecution

The manipulation and exploitation of the MH17 incident by the Dutch seems to rival that of Skripal incident by the UK.

https://www.government.nl/search?keyword=mh17

AnonFromTN , March 31, 2018 at 6:18 pm GMT
@JR

Yes. I can understand the Dutch government: they serve the US overlords first and foremost. They don't give a hoot about the lives of ordinary Dutch people. What I do not understand is the behavior of the people who lost loved ones in MH17 crash. Don't they want to know who killed them? Don't they object to being grist for the mill of amoral and cynical politicians?

[Apr 02, 2018] Who Shot Down Flight MH17 in Ukraine by Ron Unz

Notable quotes:
"... The New York Times ..."
"... The Wall Street Journal ..."
"... Huffington Post ..."
Aug 14, 2014 | www.unz.com

Ukraine?

237 Comments Reply

Last year I published Our American Pravda , making the case for the utter corruption and unreliability of the mainstream American media, both in the past and especially in recent years. The enormous lacunae I daily noticed in the pages of The New York Times , The Wall Street Journal , and other leading media outlets were a major motivation behind my creation of The Review , whose readership has grown enormously in recent weeks.

A perfect example of this dangerous MSM "conspiracy of silence" may be found in the growing confrontation with Russia over Ukraine, greatly accelerated by the death of almost 300 passengers aboard Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, shot down last month over Eastern Ukraine. The American media and its Western counterparts have almost unanimously placed the blame on anti-government rebels backed by Russia, and darkly insinuate that Russian President Vladimir Putin has the blood of those hundreds of innocent lives on his hands. London's once-respected Economist magazine has repeatedly run shrill covers promoting the great threat of Putin and Russia to world peace, even featuring a photo of the former under the stark title "A Web of Lies." There is the serious likelihood of a renewed Cold War against Russia and with the neoconized Republicans in Congress proposing legislation to incorporate Ukraine as an American military ally and deploy American forces there, the actual possibility of a military clash near the Russian border.

As readers know, I have been overwhelmingly consumed with my own software work in recent months and aside from closely reading the NYT and WSJ every morning, have devoted little time or effort to following the disastrous Ukraine situation. But just carefully reading between the lines of our elite MSM outlets and glancing at a few contrary perspectives presented on alternative websites have left me highly suspicious of our media narrative, leading me to wonder where the finger of guilt actually points.

For example, according to the official American story, MH17 was downed by rebels armed with a BUK anti-aircraft missile battery. As it happens, the pro-American Ukraine government possesses a large inventory of exactly those weapons, while it is far from clear that the rebels have a single unit, let alone the expertise to operate such sophisticated devices. Furthermore, there apparently exists radar evidence demonstrating that Ukraine fighter planes were in the immediate vicinity of MH17 just before it was shot down and there are firsthand reports from investigators on the ground that portions of the crashed fuselage showed strong evidence of having been hit the sort of heavy machine-gun fire employed in air combat. I find it extremely suspicious that the American government has repeatedly refused to release the evidence supporting its narrative, while the Russian government has released copious evidence supporting its contrary perspective.

We must bear in mind that the downing of MH17 and the deaths of the hundreds of mostly European passengers came as a fortuitous stroke of fortune for the embattled Kiev government and its neoconservative American backers, given that Germany and most of the other major European governments had just balked at approving the harsh anti-Russian economic sanctions being proposed by the White House. Cui bono ?

Furthermore, this terrible suspicion that 300 innocent lives may have been sacrificed in a ghastly false-flag operation by an American-supported government is somewhat buttressed by earlier events. Consider that the overthrow of the democratically-elected and neutralist Ukrainian government was sparked by the massive bloodshed that erupted between riot police and pro-American demonstrators in the Kievan capital, as many hundreds on both sides were suddenly killed or wounded by an outbreak of heavy gunfire over a couple of nights. I found it very intriguing that soon afterward an intercepted telephone call between the pro-Western foreign minister of Estonia and European High Commissioner Catherine Ashton, later confirmed to be genuine, revealed that the bullets found in the bodies of both government police and anti-government demonstrators had apparently come from the same guns. The most plausible explanation of this strange detail is that the snipers responsible were professionals brought in to cause the massive bloodshed necessary to overthrow the government, which is exactly what soon followed. Again cui bono ?

Am I certain about these facts, let alone the analysis built upon them? Absolutely not! As emphasized, I've been entirely preoccupied with other matters over the last few months. But if such obvious suspicions are apparent to someone who occasionally glances at the news reports out of the corner of his mind's eye, the total silence of the American media and its huge corps of full-time professional journalists constitutes a very telling indictment. Personally, I think there's a high likelihood that forces aligned with current pro-Western regime were responsible for the massacre in Kiev's Maidan Square and a better than fifty-fifty chance they more recently shot down MH17, but I really can't be sure about either of these things. However, I am absolutely 100% certain that the American MSM has been revealed as a totally worthless source of information on these crucial world events, although it can be relied upon to provide every last detail of Robin Williams' troubled life or the endless foibles of the Kardashians.

In the interests of providing our readers at least some access to alternate accounts of why we may now be heading into a new Cold War against Russia -- or even a hot one -- I've recently republished a couple of Mike Whitney's fine Counterpunch columns on the mysteries of Flight MH17 , which cautiously raised questions rather than claimed to answer them, as well as those of the redoubtable Paul Craig Roberts.

Aside from attracting considerable debate from our website's often "excitable" commenters, whose views range from the sensible to the deranged, our Whitney columns regarding MH17 had a far more important consequence. One of our left-liberal readers was shocked to read facts totally absent from the pages of The Nation , the Huffington Post , or any of the other left-liberal sites she visits. Out of curiosity, she contacted a very prominent left-liberal American academic, someone with special expertise in exactly that area of Europe. To her considerable surprise, he largely confirmed the outlandish "conspiracy theory," saying that the evidence increasingly indicated that the American-backed Kiev government had shot down Flight MH17, either accidentally or otherwise.

Based on his remarks, it sounded like he and his friends had devoted 100x the time and effort that I had to investigating the incident, thereby reassuring me that my casual conclusions were at least not wholly ridiculous. Yet it also appeared that neither he or any of the other American experts in his circle who apparently share his views had seen fit to publish their opinions in any of the numerous media outlets to which they have easy access, presumably for fear of being denounced and stigmatized as "conspiracy nuts." They may regard the possibility of an American military confrontation with nuclear-armed Russia as a terrible danger, but it pales compared to the horrifying risk that the 22-year-old bookers at MSNBC chat shows might decide to put a black mark down next to their names.

The following day I lamented this cowardice of our intelligentsia to another prominent liberal academic with whom I'm friendly, and he immediately sent me the draft by a friend of his on that very topic that I am now greatly honored to publish. Most of the dead on MH17 were Dutch citizens and Karel van Wolferen ranks as one of the world's most prominent Dutch journalists, winner of major awards and someone whose numerous books that have sold well over a million copies worldwide. His article describes the evidence regarding MH17, but more importantly focuses on the totally corrupted worlds of journalism and politics that have enabled this dangerous situation to develop.

I urge everyone to read van Wolferen's long and thoughtful piece and ask themselves why such basic facts and simple analysis appear nowhere within the mainstream American media. Given his standing and his credibility, the New York Times should have long since featured his byline on a major opinion piece, and the absence constitutes powerful evidence. During our disastrous Iraq War the American media applied exactly the same boycott to the views of my old friend Bill Odom, the three-star general who had run the NSA for President Ronald Reagan and ranked as one of Washington's leading experts on national security issues. Our totally incompetent ruling elites refuse to let discordant voices puncture their bubble of unreality.

For those readers who refuse to admit the possibility that our vaunted MSM might conceal such vital facts, consider the important point I made at the beginning of my 2013 article . In recent years, leading scholars have conclusively established that for a decade or two during the 1930s and 1940s, a small network of Communist spies quietly gained substantial control of our national government in Washington, DC, successfully diverting the actions of the United States to their own nefarious ends. If our mainstream media had failed to notice or report that situation at the time and then spent the next half century ridiculing anyone who suggested this possibility, why should anyone believe that the media can be trusted on the question of who actually shot down Flight MH17 in Ukraine? Our American Pravda indeed.

The Ukraine, Corrupted Journalism, and the Atlanticist Faith By

UPDATE: Our long, detailed article by distinguished Dutch journalist Karel van Wolferen has had enormous traffic, and is now on the verge of becoming the most heavily read piece in the history of our young webzine, while the nearly 600 Tweets it has so far received indicatie distribution comparable to that of a major New York Times article. All this has happened in just the last couple of days.

Furthermore, just as I had hoped, the very lengthy comment threads of the two articles have provided a wealth of additional information, far beyond anything I had previously encountered, given my slight familiarity with this issue.

First, I learned that a group of highly-experienced former intelligence officers from the CIA, FBI, NSA, and other government agencies has issued a public statement sharply criticizing the lack of evidence substantiating the claims made by American government officials.

http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/77302/77302/#more-77302

Also, the blogsite of Col. Patrick Lang, a very highly regarded former Defense Intelligence official, has published a lengthy and detailed analysis of the MH17 Incident, raising many of the same issues:

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/08/on-truth-and-honor-the-mh17-shootdown-and-the-centenary-of-world-war-i-.html#more

Furthermore, one of the commenters on our website, who purportedly has a military intelligence background, pointed us to the very detailed analysis he had published on his own blogsite regarding MH17:

http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/07/19/black-boxes-dark-arts-geopolitics/

And I also discovered that a prominent leftist journalist had also published a lengthy reconstruction of the shoot-down:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/systematically-reconstructing-shoot-malaysian-airliner-guilt-clear-damning.html

Although I claim no great expertise in military affairs, these analyses certainly seem to strengthen my suspicions that the Official Story almost universally accepted by the Western MSM is far from solid and may indeed be a ridiculous fabrication. I urge others to follow the links I have provided, and draw their own conclusions, perhaps different from my own. But they should ask themselves why so many highly-regarded former U.S. intelligence professionals would be raising these serious doubts and why our mainstream media has totally failed to report them.

As for me, I've noticed a curious fact. It appears that the people and organizations promoting the current Official Line on Ukraine have a huge overlap with the people and organizations that promoted the disastrous Iraq War, based on the notorious WMD Hoax. Meanwhile, the people providing serious skepticism about government accusations regarding MH17 are exactly the same people who raised doubts and skepticism about Iraq's alleged WMD and the wisdom of attacking Iraq, while being just as totally ignored by the MSM then as now.

Since none of the Iraq War or WMD Hoax culprits ever received proper punishment for their crimes, they've mostly remained alive and free and able to promote equally disastrous foreign policy adventures in the media they continue to control. But that doesn't mean we must be so gullible as to believe what they say.

Going forward, the crucial unknown is whether our timorous media or even its ideological fringes, will begin to seriously report these issues, or whether they'll all get into line just as they did during the WMD Hoax.

UPDATE 2:

Scott Horton has a podcast interview of Karel van Wolferen

http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/08/15/081514-karel-van-wolferen/

[Mar 30, 2018] MH17 was an anglo/US hit job

Notable quotes:
"... MH17 was an anglo/US hit job. I start to see now why no Australian rep went with the Malaysians to collect the victims and the planes black boxes. The Dutch at least had the decency to go with the Malaysian's and pick up their own people. ..."
"... With Novichok, it only took a couple of days to get the EU on board so I think plenty of planning by UK and fellow travelers in the US before the Skripal's were poisoned. ..."
Mar 30, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Mar 29, 2018 6:04:40 PM | 50

MH17 was an anglo/US hit job. I start to see now why no Australian rep went with the Malaysians to collect the victims and the planes black boxes. The Dutch at least had the decency to go with the Malaysian's and pick up their own people.

With MH17 it took two weeks to push the EU into sanctioning Russia which and only then so called international team and Australian reps went to the site.

With Novichok, it only took a couple of days to get the EU on board so I think plenty of planning by UK and fellow travelers in the US before the Skripal's were poisoned.

[Mar 27, 2018] Our mutual friend Elliott Higgins" works for the Atlantic council

Mar 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

col from OZ , Mar 21, 2018 9:38:04 PM | 87

Don 60 re Huntsman

"our mutual friend Elliott Higgins" works for the Atlantic council, that's when he not ginning up (original) false Ghouta chemical attack and falsifying and photo shopping evidence on the MH17 (which was carried out by Ukraine.)

[Mar 25, 2018] The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide. I wonder if he was suicided

Notable quotes:
"... The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide. I wonder if he was suicided. Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes. Blaming someone. ..."
"... Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ? Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ? And so on, and so forth. ..."
Mar 19, 2018 | www.unz.com

jilles dykstra , March 19, 2018 at 12:56 pm GMT

@Randal

There is one 'track record', Litvinov, killed by polonium. What secret service would be so dumb as to use this, pointing immediately to state murder ? Accidents, and suicides are quiet methods for keeping people silent for all times.

The Ukrainian pilot that, according to Russia, by accident shot down MH17, just committed suicide. I wonder if he was suicided. Sensational murders, or attempted murders, have quite different purposes. Blaming someone.

Who believes that Arafat was not murdered, does anyone believe that the Diana accident was an accident, who believes the Hess and Kelly suicides ? Why was Palme murdered, who indeed thinks that Anna Lyndh was killed accidentally, that Barschel committed suicide, that Mölleman died accidentally ? And so on, and so forth.

[Mar 25, 2018] Breaking: 'Silenced' Ukrainian Military Pilot Accused of Attack on Boeing MH17 Found Dead by Gordon Duff

"... VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar spoofed" shot down MH 17. We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots and we presented evidence that an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to vector in the shootdown. ..."
"... Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by pro-Israeli traitors ..."
"... Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft mechanic told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close air support aircraft flown by Voloshin. ..."
"... The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down. ..."
"... Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may have eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the downing of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position." ..."
"... In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon. ..."
"... I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think that the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter disappears," the observer said. ..."
Notable quotes:
"... VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar spoofed" shot down MH 17. We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots and we presented evidence that an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to vector in the shootdown. ..."
"... Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by pro-Israeli traitors ..."
"... Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft mechanic told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close air support aircraft flown by Voloshin. ..."
"... The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down. ..."
"... Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may have eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the downing of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position." ..."
"... In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon. ..."
"... I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think that the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter disappears," the observer said. ..."
www.theamericanconservative.com

[ Editor's note : VT has long asserted that two Ukrainian SU 25s or SU27s "radar spoofed" shot down MH 17. We did so on live Russia Today backed by experienced combat pilots and we presented evidence that an Israeli F15E AWAC aided, taking off from Azerbaijan, to vector in the shootdown.

Now, years later, Russia speaks up after we believe media there was silenced by pro-Israeli traitors Gordon Duff ]

*

The pilot's death, preliminarily ruled a suicide, has reopened claims about his possible role in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in the summer of 2014.

Vladislav Voloshin, the Ukrainian combat pilot which some Russian investigative journalists have accused of responsibility for the MH17 disaster, allegedly shot himself Sunday at his home.

According to a press release by police in the southern Ukrainian city of Mykolaiv, the 29-year-old pilot's wife heard the gunshot and called the emergency services. Voloshin succumbed to his wounds on route to hospital.

According to the police, the pilot was shot by a Makarov pistol, a standard issue military and police side arm in Ukraine. The weapon has been sent for examination. Police have opened a criminal investigation.

Inconvenient Facts: JIT Likely to Ignore New Russian MH17 Evidence

Relatives told police that Voloshin had been in a depressed state, and had voiced suicidal thoughts. Friends and family told local media that he was suffering from problems associated with the reconstruction of Mykolaiv's airport, where he was acting director.

Voloshin's name came to be associated with independent investigations into the destruction of Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine. In late 2014, a Ukrainian army aircraft mechanic told Russian media that the passenger airliner may have been downed by a Su-25 close air support aircraft flown by Voloshin.

The Ukrainian side confirmed that the pilot was in the military at the time, but denied that he flew on the day the Malaysian airliner was brought down.

Speaking to Sputnik about Voloshin's suspected suicide, Ukrainian politics expert Bogdan Bezpalko said that Kiev's version aside, "one cannot help but think that the other side may have eliminated him as a dangerous witness who could have lifted the veil of secrecy over the downing of MH17, which would subsequently strengthen Russia's position."

According to the political scientist, "it's quite obvious that it was not in Russia's interest to shoot down this plane, and that all this was a provocation directed against our country."

In Bezpalko's view, Kiev and its Western power will continue to do everything they can to see that the truth about the tragedy of flight MH17 does not surface anytime soon. "It's possible that others who could shed light on this matter will be 'silenced' in one way or another. So I don't think we will learn the truth any time soon.

I would like to recall, for example, that all matters related to the flight of Rudolf Hess to Britain [in 1941] remain classified to the British people for 100 years. And I think that the circumstances of the airliner will be made known only when the urgency of the matter disappears," the observer said.

EXCLUSIVE: Kiev 'Turned Blind Eye to Lives of 298 People Aboard MH17'

On July 17, 2014, a Malasyia Airlines Boeing 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed outside the city of Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people onboard.Kiev blamed the crash on the Donbass independence fighters, who countered by saying they did not have the means to bring down an aircraft flying at such a high altitude.

An inquiry by Dutch investigators concluded that the Boeing was shot down by a Buk missile system, which it alleged was delivered to the militia from Russia and then sent back. Moscow slammed the inquiry's bias, saying that the investigators' conclusions were based exclusively on information received from the Ukrainian side.

A separate investigation by Almaz-Antei, maker of the Buk system, concluded that the Boeing was shot down from territory controlled by the Ukrainian military.

[Mar 25, 2018] The former Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, suspected of attacking Boeing 777 of Malaysia Airlines, committed suicide

He was 29...
Mar 19, 2018 | news.yandex.ru

The former Ukrainian pilot Vladislav Voloshin, suspected of attacking Boeing 777 of Malaysia Airlines, committed suicide. This was reported by the police of the Mykolayiv region. A retired military pilot killed himself at his home.

https://russian.rt.com/ussr/news/493702-ukraina-samoubiistvo-podozrevaemyi-mh17

https://www.vesti.ru/m/doc.html?id=2996849

[Mar 25, 2018] It Wasn't Russia (2) Veterans Today

Notable quotes:
"... I was amazed to learn this week that some websites are still pushing the discredited claim the Sukhoi-25 cannot reach FL330 (33'000 ft), the altitude MH17 was flying at when it was shot down. The issue is not whether a -25 can reach FL330 -- clearly it can, on combat power. The issue is why has the desperate lie that it could not been persisted in for so long? ..."
Mar 25, 2018 | www.veteranstoday.com

MH17

Western governments and media continue to lie about MH17. I have not yet seen a government report which attempts to grapple with the fact that the pro-Russian rebels blamed for the disaster lacked access to the arming codes for the Buk missile system in their possession, for example.

I was amazed to learn this week that some websites are still pushing the discredited claim the Sukhoi-25 cannot reach FL330 (33'000 ft), the altitude MH17 was flying at when it was shot down. The issue is not whether a -25 can reach FL330 -- clearly it can, on combat power. The issue is why has the desperate lie that it could not been persisted in for so long?

Service ceiling for the Su-25M, of which the Ukrainian Air Force has at least two examples, is 33,000 ft and higher with combat power. In any event the Ukrainians didn't need armor-plate to fire at an unarmed 777. As I have pointed out on these pages before the -25 has a heavy, titanium armor 'bath' designed to protect the pilot from ground fire. Remove that and you immediately buy yourself extra performance.

You won't find any of these points acknowledged on Wikipedia. The intellectual dishonesty of those pushing the 'Russian rebel' conspiracy theory is breath-taking.

[Mar 22, 2018] The first accusations were launched way too quickly after MH17 was hit

Mar 22, 2018 | thesaker.is

Peter from Oz on March 22, 2018 , · at 6:24 am UTC

The anger and righteous disgust by the chief RF MFA spokesman at around 1:45 from recall (I did just skip to snippets -- but got stopped there) is worth seeing. He talks of the Malaysian Boeing downed in Ukraine to the US rep in audience, pointing out US knows exactly what happened because of its satellites directly overhead, and says something I'd never heard -- repeated it a couple of times at least -- again in accusatory disgust -- that the first accusations Russia shot down the plane came BEFORE the plane was hit!
Auslander on March 22, 2018 , · at 7:29 am UTC
This is true, the plane was still flying when the first accusations were made. The fact that it hit the ground moments later belies the lies that Opolchensya and/or Russia did it. The plane was not hit by a missile, there are entry and exit aircraft cannon holes in the left cockpit outer skin. I have no doubts that the photos of that damning piece of evidence are long gone but not to worry, I'm sure someone has them.
Auslander

[Mar 22, 2018] Don't worry, folks. We don't have to take nobody's word for nuthin'. YouTube and Google Earth and "online investigations" from Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat (and you can "verify" too) have that all covered

Mar 22, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Abe , March 20, 2018 at 12:07 am

It's truly amazing what that plucky [CIA-based] Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" can provide:
-- chemical agents and nuclear materials (deliverable by aerial drone or up close and personal, of course),
-- rusty weapons parts and busted "barrel bombs" (I understand their "community" pioneered the IED concept),
-- even the occasional Russian missile or aircraft.

Sadly, they aren't able to provide the one thing that the U.S. "intelligence community" can never quite seem to find: satellite photos.

But don't worry, folks. We don't have to take nobody's word for nuthin'. YouTube and Google Earth and "online investigations" from Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat (and you can "verify" too) have that all covered.

Rest assured, that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" has something really, really "good". They've already used it a few times. That worked so well that their gonna use it again. Like real soon.

Abe , March 20, 2018 at 12:12 am

It's truly amazing what that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" can provide:
-- chemical agents and nuclear materials (deliverable by aerial drone or up close and personal, of course),
-- rusty weapons parts and busted "barrel bombs" (I understand their "community" pioneered the IED concept),
-- even the occasional Russian missile or aircraft.

Sadly, they aren't able to provide the one thing that the U.S. "intelligence community" can never quite seem to find: satellite photos.

But don't worry, folks. We don't have to take nobody's word for nuthin'. YouTube and Google Earth and "online investigations" from Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat (and you can "verify" too) have that all covered.

Rest assured, that plucky Russian (and Ukrainian)-speaking "community" has plenty of something. They're using it now and they're gonna keep on using it. Unless somebody finds some satellite photos.

[Mar 19, 2018] Remember the MH17 tragedy. The whole western world was screaming Russia/Putin without any conclusive evidence

Notable quotes:
"... for a prime minister to gamble so much on 'highly likely' intelligence, is an insult to our intelligence. ..."
"... Another FALSE FLAG created by the western neocons to discredit Russia. This is so obvious. The sheeple need to wake up. ..."
Mar 18, 2018 | russia-insider.com

Crypto • 2 days ago ,

Nothing I have ever seen in my life is more ludicrous, more absurd and more unjust than this display in parliament.

1691 Crypto 2 days ago ,

Remember the MH17 tragedy. It was worst. The whole western world was screaming Russia/Putin.

Peter Jennings Crypto a day ago ,

I agree, and for a prime minister to gamble so much on 'highly likely' intelligence, is an insult to our intelligence.

The whole sorry lot in parliament are stuck in an 18th century mindset. The place has never so needed a new broom as it does right now.

tom , 2 days ago
"An editor at the Guardian says the poisoning was a 'brazen attack on a sovereign country' and 'cannot go unpunished'".

So presumably The Guardian will now be agitating for the trial and severe punishment of all those responsible for brazen and unprovoked attacks on Yugoslavia, Afghanistan. Iraq, Libya and Syria?

All of which did rather more than poisoning two or three people (so far, non-fatally). In Iraq alone the "coalition" is responsible for over 3 million civilian deaths. In Iraq and Libya the civil infrastructure was demolished and the head of state murdered.

And what does The Guardian have to say about that?

Mizan Thrope • 2 days ago

Another FALSE FLAG created by the western neocons to discredit Russia. This is so obvious. The sheeple need to wake up.

[Mar 18, 2018] Skripal case is very reminiscent of the MH17 campaign

Mar 18, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Posted by: the pessimist | Mar 16, 2018 2:03:28 PM | 21

Very reminiscent of the MH17 campaign that was used to bully the reluctant Europeans into imposing sanctions on Russia. Accusations were made and a narrative put forward immediately without presenting clear evidence or waiting for an investigation. Through repetition this narrative has become dogma in the West despite the fact that supporting evidence has still not been forthcoming. It seems that after 9-11 it became clear that quickly putting out a narrative, with the support of the press, and demonizing anyone with any public stature who questions the basic story could be successful, even when there were thousands of eye witnesses and many flaws in the official explanation. The facts, or what really happened no longer matter once the narrative has taken root.

My question is what kinds of threats are being used to keep potential dissenters in line now. French banks were punished over the mistrial deal and it was abandoned. Now the stakes seem to be higher and the risk of defections has increased, so what is the stick?

[Mar 17, 2018] Cue bono question and possible players

Mar 17, 2018 | craigmurray.org.uk

Stonky , March 16, 2018 at 02:53

Clyde Davis: " until I hear a more convincing explanation I'm sticking to my guns."

1. Russian dissident oligarchs: loads of money; baleful influence and financial tentacles extend into the very heart of the UK establishment; all sorts of dodgy connections in the former Soviet Union; zero scruples; hate Putin.
2. Ukraine: fascist regime; involved in a war with Russia already; just as likely to have access to old Soviet Novichok (if it exists) as Russia; just as capable of manufacturing it as Russia if it doesn't; zero scruples; hate Putin.
3. Turkey: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; already have their own chemical weapons programme; perfectly capable of manufacturing this stuff; previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples; hate Putin.
4. Saudi Arabia: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; loads of money; baleful influence and financial tentacles extend into the very heart of the UK establishment; happy to export or facilitate terrorism anywhere in the world including their supposed 'allies'; zero scruples; hate Putin.
5. Anti-Trump forces in the US: Demented in their obsession with 'Trump-Russia' collusion; angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; already have access to Soviet Novichok (if it exists); perfectly capable of manufacturing it if it doesn't; previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples; hate Putin.
6. Israel: angry because they're losing a proxy war with Russia in Syria; probably the best military/scientific capability in the world; certainly capable of manufacturing this stuff; previous in targeted assassinations; zero scruples when pursuing what they believe to be their own best interests; hate Putin.

Kiza , March 16, 2018 at 02:55

To me this is a repeat of the MH17 case study with its:

  1. Propaganda preparation – media full of shot down Uki military planes vs. media full of CW victims in Syria for which Russia is to blame,
  2. "Rush" to judgement whodunit – former Australian Prime Minister Abbot publicly pointed finger at the Russian rebels in Ukraine 7 hours after the shootdown vs. the UK Prime Minister blames Russia a day after her event,
  3. Soviet Union = Russia when convenient – the Soviet designed and made BUK becomes the exclusively Russian made BUK vs. the Soviet Designed CW becomes the exclusively Russian produced CW (with a touch of the good old British propaganda – maybe Russia lost control over it! => well, maybe US "lost control" over it when it was helping it's client Uzbekistan destroy it)
  4. Logic matters not – let us find a BUK coming all the way from Russia instead of looking at tens of such systems operated by the Uki troops, apparently four near the area where the shoot down happened vs. let us look at poison or a trained chemist coming all the way from Russia (how when one cannot get even a small bottle of drink on a plane?) whilst there is a British own source 12 km away,
  5. When questions arise and contrary items of evidence come out, just ignore and keep drumming "the proven facts" (the science is settled) from the blame package prepared in advance – an alternative, facts-supported explanation will never be accepted no matter what.

The post-modern West operates on evidence-free pure emotion-eliciting narratives ("Putin killed my baby") on the shoulders of MSM and troll farms. Any unauthorised explanation, such as Mr Murray's, is declared a conspiracy theory to be ridiculed.

Sergey , March 17, 2018 at 08:11

https://wikispooks.com/w/images/9/90/Report-mh17-crash-en.pdf Page 232

Above mean that Ukraine, Malaysia and Malaysia Airlines bore certain responsibilities with regards to the operations of flight MH17 based on national an international law.

Russia has very bad lawyers. The investigation is completed.

[Mar 04, 2018] Minister of Security and Justice signs MH17 treaty with Ukraine

Jul 07, 2018 | www.government.nl

Minister of Security and Justice Stef Blok and his Ukrainian counterpart Pavlo Petrenko today signed a bilateral treaty on international legal cooperation in relation to the downing of flight MH17. The treaty provides that those suspected of downing flight MH17 can be prosecuted in the Netherlands in respect of all 298 victims. This means that all next of kin will have the same rights in the Dutch criminal proceedings.

Minister of Security and Justice Stef Blok and his Ukrainian counterpart Pavlo Petrenko sign the treaty.

The countries whose prosecution authorities are cooperating in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) – Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, Ukraine and the Netherlands – this week jointly decided that the prosecution and trial of the suspects would take place in the Netherlands, in a process rooted in close and ongoing international cooperation and support. The JIT's criminal investigation is still underway. A decision on prosecution will be taken by the Dutch Public Prosecution Service in due course.

The bilateral treaty with Ukraine eliminates any doubts that the prosecution could take place in the Netherlands in respect of all the victims, not only those who were Dutch nationals. The victims of the MH17 disaster included people from 17 different countries.

The treaty also makes it possible for any Ukrainian defendants to be examined by video link. Provision has also been made for the transfer of enforcement of any prison sentences that may be imposed. This is important since the Ukrainian constitution prohibits the country from extraditing its own nationals.

'The signing of this treaty is an important step towards establishing the truth, trying those responsible and achieving justice for the next of kin,' Mr Blok said. 'We are grateful to Ukraine for cooperating effectively with us, including in the agreement of this treaty.'

The MH17 treaty and its implementing legislation will be submitted to the House of Representatives for consideration as soon as possible.

[Mar 04, 2018] Propaganda war still continues on who shot MT17 question. Now it is clear that goverment and intelligence serveses are subservert to the USA and we probably will never know the truth, like was the case with the JFK assasination

Notable quotes:
"... Of course Kiev junta shot down MH17, otherwise US would provide satellite images and other details obtained by high tech devices. But so far nothing has been published. Speaks volumes, no? ..."
"... Well, nobody really knows, what we do know is that Ukraine was the one directing where the MH17 should fly, and Ukraine had just one day earlier been bombing the rebels from airplanes in just that area, and Ukraine was responsibly for what happens inside its airspace, and that Ukraine benefited hugely from the destruction of the MH17. ..."
Mar 04, 2018 | nationalinterest.org

Agarbeau a day ago ,

Russia has a nasty habit of downing aircraft even commercial airliners.

Vic -> Agarbeau a day ago ,

Hrm? Seems Russia is one of the few countries that does not have a habit of shooting down civilian airliners.

"Siberia Airlines Flight 1812[1] was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk," https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

"Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III, killing all 290 people on "board.https:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_...

focusser -> Vic a day ago ,

MH17, and Korean Airlines 007. Just two planes Russia shot down.

Vic -> focusser a day ago ,

MH17 was likely shot down by Ukraine in an successf