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Victoria "f*ck the EU" Nuland  appointed a neoliberal Ukrainian prime minister and organized coup d'état to install him in power

( Making Ukraine "Khaganate of Nuland"; "Khaganate of Nuland" is an apt amalgam of khanate and Kagan, a hint on Victoria's notorious neo-con husband Robert Kagan by Asia Times ).

Future Prime Minister – Arseniy Yatsenyuk (rechristened to “Yats”) with his patron Victoria Nuland. Two statists -- Taygibok (Co-founder of far right Socialist-National Party, later renamed into Svoboda party) and Klitschko (leader of pro-Germany, Merkel-financed Udar Party who was just thrown under the bus) are present

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[Oct 20, 2018] Looks like we are living in Matrix environment

The power of propaganda is such that it is able to create the artificial reality in which Western citizen live. Right out of the Matrix ;-)
As jilles dykstra noted: "The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show."
Notable quotes:
"... Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections. ..."
"... The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen. ..."
Oct 20, 2018 | www.unz.com

Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. The commission refused Russians access to its findings; this unfair dealing would force any intelligence service in the world to try and learn what had been found.

Not that it was of any use. The Dutch commission indeed found out the numbers of the missile that destroyed the jet; the Russians went through their documents and proved that this particular missile had been delivered to the Ukraine (when it was a Soviet republic) and remained there. A scoop! Now we know what happened with the jet – it was destroyed by the Ukrainians, presumably by mistake, like they downed another Russian airliner . However, the Western media ignored this scoop altogether. They decided to blame the crash on the Russians, and so they did to the end. Even if Russian intelligence were to find and deliver to the Hague the Ukrainian soldiers who operated the missile launcher, the Dutch, as loyal NATO members, would look other way.

This already happened regarding Syrian chemical attacks – the Russians and the Syrians delivered the very kids who unwillingly participated in the White Helmets' staged and filmed 'attack, directly to the OPCW. It was of no use. These guys are not after truth, they are just repeating the narrative they learned by rote.

Still, Russian intelligence worth of its name would be expected to try and obtain maximum findings in order to help the government to clear Russia's name of unjust accusations. There revelations of Russian activity weren't particularly dangerous or vicious. But while this subject had been discussed, a very painful and distressing development had been revealed.

The Western intelligence services have achieved incredible knowledge of whatever happens in Russia. They have obtained extensive databases of Russian everyday life from traffic violations and fines to passport scans, from residence registration to taxi requests, from messenger chats to emails, allowing them to trace persons and events in Russia with uncanny precision.

Many databases had been stolen and sold by small-time crooks; Western intelligences had made a concentrated effort to buy whatever is available on the black market; some bases were stolen and sold for crypto-currencies on the deep internet.

The most valuable databases had been sold by the crooks and/or traitors, while the Information Security Centre of FSB (ЦИБ ФСБ) led by colonel Sergei Mikhailov who is now being tried for the high treason, did nothing to stop the leak.

jilles dykstra , says: October 20, 2018 at 7:23 am GMT

" Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. "

How ?

Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections.

If it was an accident, a very lucky one, hitting a plane coming from Amsterdam.

The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen.

[Oct 18, 2018] Lavrov Accuses Bellingcat of Serving Western Intelligence

Oct 18, 2018 | themoscowtimes.com

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/moscow-accuses-bellingcat-serving-western-intelligence-63212):

".......Russia's foreign minister has accused the open-source Bellingcat investigative team of acting as a front for Western intelligence services seeking to manipulate public opinion.

Bellingcat has played a leading role in identifying the alleged names of two men accused of trying to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain this year. It has previously published investigations that reportedly link Russia to the downing of flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine and suspected chemical attacks in Syria.

"It's no secret to anyone, Western journalists write openly that Bellingcat is connected to special services," Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Euronews on Tuesday.

"They leak information through it to have some effect on public opinion," he said......."

[Oct 12, 2018] Sic Semper Tyrannis RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 11 OCTOBER 2018 by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat . Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning .)


Araminta Smade , 16 hours ago

SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat. Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning.)

To those of you who are like myself deeply sceptical about this story can I recommend this article in the UK Independent newspaper.

We should be asking for answers about the Skripals and Bellingcat – and not just from Russia. Mary Dejevsky.

https://www.independent.co....

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours ago
It has transatlantic connections.

Higgins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.

When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.

And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)

Peddling Certainty:

https://irrussianality.word...

FB -> Snow Flake , an hour ago
I think some people here are actually taking Eliott Higgins far too seriously...he is still an uneducated underwear salesman...and acts like it...case in point his recent twitter outburst at Ted Postol, calling him an 'idiot'...that just shows what a substance free clown this guy is...

I briefly looked at that blog article linked to by snowflake and it is basically verbal diarrhea...bottom line is that Higgins and that Bellincat 'outfit' are best simply ignored...not worth the time or mental bandwidth to even think about...

smoothieX12 . -> Snow Flake , 2 hours ago
Atlantic Council has a very great Ph.D consultant, and strategists' strategist and tacticians' tactician, Dr. Blank. He, of all places, taught in US Army War College. He taught, of course, about Russia, since he has Ph.D in Soviet/Russian "history" or whatever passes as such in US "Russian Studies" field.

http://www.wikistrat.com/ex...

His strategic concepts are so devoid of even basic high school level knowledge of Russia (and her geography, BTW) that one is forced to ask how is it even possible to have this kind of "experts"? Among many outlandish ideas Dr. Blank proposed in his academic career dedicated to fighting evil Russians was to send US Navy to the Azov Sea to demonstrate the US Naval might.

http://www.atlanticcouncil....

This was one of the most profound facepalm moments of my life--I mean it. Not only Dr. Blank has no clue about Russia, he also has no clue about US Navy. Yet, he is an expert, alright.

TTG , 19 hours ago
You left the best part out of that State Department policy statement. He announced a new position, the Senior Advisor for Russian Malign Activities and Trends or SARMAT for short. That's straight out of the axis of evil mindset. How can we have a sober and productive policy towards Russia with crap like this?
PRC90 -> TTG , 8 hours ago
I thought that was from Duffleblog but you're right: https://www.state.gov/p/eur...
Third para from the bottom. Part of that $380 million must be Bellingcat's budget.
Timothy Hagios -> TTG , 9 hours ago
I can't wait to see what awful person is selected for this role. Also, Sarmat is also the name for Russia's newest ICBM, which makes one wonder what was on the back of their minds when they came up with this one.
ted richard , 4 hours ago
washingtons foreign policy visa vie russia and china is as yet unable to reach the psychological stage of sublimation. frustrated, angry and demoralised that they can not militarily atttack russia once and for all putting paid ....to who is the biggest dog in the yard...... american elites lash out ineffectually using various media, economic and financial games to assuage their inability to get their way.

each iteration of this plan becomes weaker and less effective than the previous one leading to more rage at being thwarted.

where the current crop of american ruling elites are concerned we are talking about 2 factors.... a profound lack of a really good cosmopolitan education and a near total lack of appreciation for how weak the american industrial base has become the past 30 years (you can not intimidate powerful nations if your military technology is 1 or more generations BEHIND)

an apt understanding of washingtons dilemma is best grasped reading the kubler-ross stages of grieving over a dying loved one. in this case the dying loved one is american exceptionalism and the l godlike power that goes with it for the 1/100 or 1%.

its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting.

[Oct 12, 2018] Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

Notable quotes:
"... Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned. ..."
Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Red Ryder , Oct 11, 2018 5:13:17 PM | link

Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.

"Highly Likely" Iran had a hand in it also. Judas was a 'Persian', of course, and would have been a Shiite if he hadn't been suicidal and lived another 800 years or so.

Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned.

[Oct 12, 2018] Austraia is staunch member of five eyes and that shows.

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Oct 12, 2018 5:34:22 AM | link

Official propaganda here in oz.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-11/bellingcat-probing-whether-russian-spies-compromised-mh17-probe/10362090
The Malaysian's remarks surprised observers. At a parliamentary hearing in Canberra, foreign affairs legal officer James Larsen was asked whether Russia was directly in the frame for the atrocity.

"Australia believes there is conclusive evidence," he said.

Mr Loke's remarks also caught the attention of Christo Grozev, an investigator with Bellingcat, a London-based reporting website that has recently dragged several of Russia's covert disruptions into the light.

It was a "surprising dissension", he said. Malaysia was the "only country that did not fully endorse the findings of the joint investigation team".

In an interview with the ABC, Mr Grozev said Bellingcat was now actively probing whether Russia had played a role in this public display of disunity.

The team's "working hypothesis", he said, was that the entire Malaysian contingent, or one member of it, had been compromised by Russia's spies.
.......

Col from OZ , Oct 12, 2018 6:47:57 AM | link

32 Peter keep up the good work! Ukraine IS RESPONSIBLY for MH17. I am of the opinion it was premeditated too.

[Oct 12, 2018] It no longer possible to hide the fact that Bellingcat is a propaganda operation financed by intelligence againcies, not that different from White Helmetss

Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

jsb , Oct 11, 2018 6:00:34 PM | link

@Red Ryder (14)

Even Bellingcat beginning to be outed by the Independent

not seen till now though is any questioning of Bellingcat's credentials in mainstream media. So let me hand you over, without further ado and with hearty if surprised approval, to Mary Dejevsky: not known as a Kremlin stooge or Putin troll. Yet here she is, in today's Independent, asking in all sincerity and with admirable bluntness just WTF is Bellingcat?

[Oct 11, 2018] Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back.

Oct 11, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:40 pm

Bellingcat exclusive!!!!!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Gosh!

Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:41 pm
Bum link again!

Second Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin

Mark Chapman October 8, 2018 at 8:02 pm
Where would we be without solid, honest citizen journalism like this? Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back. In fact, we have not heard Peep One from any of them since Bellingcat burst on the scene, and the British press goes straight to print from its reports, to hell with waiting for informed comment from the intelligence services or law enforcement.

Come to think about it, what are their countries paying them for?

Cortes October 8, 2018 at 11:15 pm
I'm looking forward to the first Bellingcat spin-offs.

Eliot Higgins – Special Invesigator featuring Tom Cruise and introducing Sparky his lovable mongrel dog which miraculously survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre and can sniff out GRU agents a mile away.

Jen October 9, 2018 at 8:35 pm
How Sparky the lovable mongrel dog survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre:

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/881477/505e84f8-9835-4ab0-9a12-1d7ea375c032/orig

His weaknesses are sniffing power pylons and swallowing batteries.

Cortes October 9, 2018 at 11:41 pm
Excellent!
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:08 am
And following temporary employment reviewing orders at a Leicester UK women's underwear manufacturer, the unemployed Higgins then "dispensed with looking for another job so that he could devote himself to blogging full-time" and has now pogressed to being a senior fellow in the "Digital Forensic Research Laboratory" and the "Future Europe Initiative", projects run by the Washington, D.C based "think tank" the "Atlantic Council".


Higgins hard at work researching

A "kept man"? His wife must bring home the bacon then.

Well, she would if she were not a Turk.

The then 32-year-old Higgins started blogging about the civil war in Syria from his home as Brown Moses: "He had no formal intelligence training or security clearance that gave him access to classified documents. He could not speak or read Arabic. He had never set foot in the Middle East, unless you count the time he changed planes in Dubai en route to Manila, or his trip to visit his in-laws in Turkey".

As far as I am aware, he still has no credentials for his chosen field, albeit he is now a "fellow" of this and that. He has also since bursting into the bloggosphere considerably put on weight:

Higgins belongs to an obsessive coterie of self-appointed military intelligence experts who use social media to piece together critical details of faraway conflicts, often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex, these amateur analysts have honed a novel set of sleuthing skills that fuse old-fashioned detective work with new sources of intelligence generated by cell phone cameras and spread by social networks. Syria's war, widely considered the most documented conflict in history, has turned social media into a weapon of mass detection -- critical both for fighters on the ground and for faraway observers trying to make sense of the conflict.

The mind boggles: he and his fellow "amateur analysts" are often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex !!!

See: Inside The One-Man Intelligence Unit That Exposed The Secrets And Atrocities Of Syria's War , by Bianca Boscar.

Bianca Bosker is the Executive Tech Editor of the Huffington Post.

Well who'd a-thowt!

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:11 am
And Higgins is also an unabashed liar:

Eliot Higgins,: "I've not received funding from NED. Stop reading conspiracy websites"

Also Eliot Higgins "Bellingcat has received money from NED"

#BellingCrap #lieslieslies #UnderwearSalesman #CarpetSlippers pic.twitter.com/VvciGlaTtw

-- Emma (@emmadefano1) September 29, 2018

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:29 pm
Once upon a time, nobody would dare to do what they are doing because of the danger of a ruinous lawsuit. But so long as he continues accusing the right people, the west will safeguard him from that as best it can. Maybe that's the way to go. They've left themselves without a retreat, saying this and that are 'confirmed'. Sue the outfit.
Jen October 8, 2018 at 9:05 pm
Bum link again? well it's Bellingcrap, what else could it be but a bum link?
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 12:43 am
And now avidly reported by the British government organ, the "independent", non-Westminster-contolled BBC:

Skripal attack: Second Russian Salisbury suspect named

At least the BBC labels "Dr. Mishkin" as a "suspect"..

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:06 am
Note how Bellingtwat states that it has "conclusively" established the real identity of Petrov on evidence gleaned from "multiple open sources" and "testimony from people familiar with the person" in question.

How do they do this?

First to the post again and well ahead of all the Western intelligence agencies, which are obviously understaffed with incompetents and not in possession of state-of-the-art means of gathering intelligence such as . errrr, Facebook?

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:10 am

Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:41 am

I'm sick of Western European shite in general.

A few days ago, that lying old slag May appeared on stage at the Conservative Party annual conference with Abba's "Dancing Queen" playing in the bacground. May appeared to be trying to dance to the Abba hit. What a cupid old stunt!

And yesterday at an EUSSR Brussels conference, EU chief-executive and piss-artist Juncker appears to have been possibly trying to take the piss out of that old, lying bag May's gyrations:

Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:25 pm
Dear God. She gives new meaning to 'wooden', and makes Pinocchio look like he was made of quicksilver.
Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:09 am
Yes, their resources really do beat all, don't they? Able to trawl through Russians' private records at will, even those ominously marked, "Not for public release". But then, they have lots of willing helpers inside Russia, which the western intelligence agencies officially have not. Makes you wonder how Russia can miss catching them, innit, considering the intertubes are strictly controlled in Russia and all their intelligence transactions are in the public domain? I mean, with their troll farms and all their snoopy organizations?
Jen October 9, 2018 at 3:46 am
Bellingcrap could have just mentioned its sources during the course of its article instead of proclaiming that it's going to detail in another post to be supposedly published today (9 October 2018) the methodology it and The Insider Russia used and the information trail established. Perhaps a sign that Bellingcrap is starting to feel some pressure to lift its game to a level acceptable to its masters at The Atlantic Council?
kirill October 9, 2018 at 8:16 pm
I guess the belled cat thinks he's immune from some "GRU" hit. LOL.
et Al October 9, 2018 at 2:32 am
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. BellEndCat can only manage the former. Still, it's good enough for the BBC who this morning spoke to a (former?) Georgian minister who was saying that if the West was united and stopped Russia from invading Georgia in 2008, then Ukraine, Crimea, Skripals etc. wouldn't have happened, followed by BBC correspondent Norton who said that 'was about right'.
cartman October 9, 2018 at 10:14 am
Don't forget that Bellingcat is linked to the Stasi:

Forgot about this: Der Spiegel outed Bellingcat analyst as former full-time Stasi goon. https://t.co/kfB69NuQ6N

-- Yasha Levine (@yashalevine) October 9, 2018

[Oct 08, 2018] The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

Oct 08, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Alfred (Cairns) , Oct 6, 2018 8:01:38 PM | link

The Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.

"MH17 -- DUTCH PREPARE MISSILE ATTACK ON MOSCOW"

http://johnhelmer.net/mh-17-dutch-prepare-missile-attack-on-moscow/

I hope their nationalists get back control of their own government before too long.

Here is a typical piece of nonsense inspired by fear of democracy. There is definitely a panic in the works.

"The New Dutch Disease Is White Nationalism: An upstart far-right party in the Netherlands threatens to entrench xenophobia in one of Europe's most progressive countries. "

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/20/the-new-dutch-disease-is-white-nationalism/

psychohistorian , Oct 7, 2018 2:05:57 AM | link
Below is a link to a posting by Eric Zuesse writing that Ukraine is now the attempted flash point for WWIII

US Switching to Ukraine as Location to Start World War III Against Russia

I continue to believe that China has made it quite clear to the US that any nukes headed to Russia will be presumed aimed at them and be retaliated against....so I don't see nuke war but continued economic war and the less and less international mayhem as Russia/China continue to hem in the dying empire beast

Before the end of this year the world will be tied up into gridlock between the factions that in my mind continue to represent the culturally imbued concepts of public or private money/finance.

consensus versus bullying styles of management. I am tired of bullying and think many others are also....the example we just saw with the Supreme Court circus and John Cornyn saying the the Senate wouldn't be bullied....

[Sep 30, 2018] RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 27 SEPTEMBER 2018 (By Patrick Armstrong)

Sep 30, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

... ... ...

MH17. Russia was immediately blamed and it's been a fact-free Gish gallop since then: flight routes changed retroactively , sudden discoveries of "evidence" defying the laws of physics , faked up intercepts , a potential suspect gets a veto but the owners of the airplane are shut out , blame Russia before the inquiry is finished , no sign of Kerry's promised data but "social media and common sense" instead, radars switched off , damage ignored when it doesn't fit the story .

But, finally, a mistake: the Ukrainians came up with a fact .

Missile parts have serial numbers, those serial numbers are recorded in logbooks, logbooks exist and the numbers can be looked up . Those parts were from a Buk missile supplied to a Soviet AD unit in the Ukrainian SSR in 1986 and the missile remained there when the USSR broke up.

Oh, and Bellingcat's favourite video is a fake .

Conclusions:

1) that particular missile had nothing to do with MH17;

2) the Ukrainians shot MH17 down either on purpose or by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ).

But let's gallop round the fact-free track again .

[Sep 27, 2018] The BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense

Sep 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

TJ , Sep 26, 2018 1:25:05 PM | link

THE BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense on the 6PM main news, BBC story

To me the ears look very different in the 2 pictures presented.

Den Lille Abe , Sep 26, 2018 2:07:56 PM | link

Bellingcat is MI6, so what do you expect.

[Sep 25, 2018] RUSSIAN MH17 BRIEFING by Patrick Armstrong

Notable quotes:
"... Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments ..."
"... The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database. The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers. ..."
"... So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian. ..."
Sep 25, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com

mourjou , 5 days ago

How difficult would it be for the SBU to paint a Ukrainian BUK launcher to look exactly like a Russian one and drive it round Ukraine for a while stopping long enough every now and then for members of the public to take photos of it and post them on social media. Unless the MH17 investigation can produce photos of the alleged BUK launcher crossing into Russia, the authenticity of the photos can and should be questioned.

The really important question is still why were commercial airliners allowed to fly over Ukrainian airspace in the east when it was clearly known that heavy SAM launchers were active and at least one high-flying aircraft had already been shot down?

RaisingMac -> mourjou , 4 days ago
There was also a rumor going around that MH17's original route was over the Black Sea, but that Kiev ATC had them alter their path in mid-flight to go over Donbass, supposedly because of inclement weather. If so, very suspicious.
PRC90 -> mourjou , 5 days ago
Qantas ceased flying those routes months before MH17 solely on the basis that medium range SAMs were in the ORBAT of at least one of the combatants.

The airspace is owned by Ukraine who collects air navigation charges from overflying aircraft, hence there would have been a financial incentive to keep accepting flight plans for those routes.

PRC90 , 5 days ago
Tech equipment like this usually has two types of logbook. One is the daily serviceability log signed off after each functional test and inspection, and kept with the equipment, and the other is a set of maintenance logs for each system within the (eg.) missile. The latter would be held at the higher echelon maintenance facility waiting for the thing to come home and get fixed or overhauled.

If the Russians gave the munition to the Ukrainians as a permanent allocation, they would have kept basic details but would have given the maintenance books en masse to the Ukrainians due to the weight and volume of these in paper format. They would still have enough to ID what they actually sold or gave away.

Fred -> PRC90 , 5 days ago
The article by Pepe Escobar in Asia Times quotes the Russian MOD, which links the manufacturing serial number of two engine components back to the site of manufacturing and then tracks that forward into the final assembly - the missile. Then the Russians track the missile to the unit it was assigned to in Ukraine.

"So now we know, via declassified files, that the engine of the missile 9D131 allegedly had the serial number 8869032. And a "passport" for the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 carried the number 8-30-113. The actual missile number was 886847349, they said."

http://www.atimes.com/artic...

Snow Flake -> Fred , 3 days ago
I guess I should add it wasn't exactly exactly excitement that made me comment twice. But ... technical ...

I did correct one of those two comments. ... Once the first showed up. Incidentally after the second. I regret this now. Somewhat.

Had no sound initially. Interestingly the Russian version works even without it. Somehow.

my initial question circled around this statement.

2. The videos are fake. The sightline evidence is, to my mind,
apodictic. I've seen other arguments that they are fake but these are
the most convincing. (I do like the backwards driving TEL).

.... That I surely didn't understand without sound. Or maybe not to the extend I would have liked.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Check Patrick's linked video: "Russian MoD briefing". About 26 min in. But I like the video's slowness. Did the JIT seriously use that type of open source "evidence" too? Hard to believe. As hard to believe as the enormous success of its founder? Who even made it into our news for a short time as British expert.

Concerning Pepe, I was pleased about this:

Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group, allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days ago
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group , allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.

I thought that's exactly what they do in Patrick's Russian visual evidence video link above starting around 26 minutes into. Made me look up his site: its English, French, Russian by now. ;)

thanks for the link.

PRC90 -> Fred , 5 days ago
Yes, that's the original manufacturer's data, and given the manufacture date's proximity to the transfer date it looks like the munitions were made specifically for a Ukraine order, which may indicate sequential serial numbers across the batch.

The actual maintenance document bundle would disclose if any internal serial numbered systems were swapped out for newer Russian hardware after 1986 during the days of Rus-Ukraine brotherly love. This would have a higher chance of occurring if the entire SAM system was on a Russian maintenance contract, however .. I think not because the Ukr's had plenty of rocket expertise and I suggest they kept the lot, maintenance document and all.

It's up to the Ukr's to produce evidence of what they say the do not have.

Michael , 5 days ago
The "cui bono" is the first thing to investigate. Russia had none. Ukrainian had plenty of obvious one at that.

In fact shortly after the tragedy I was contacted by The saker francophone to developp some argument about this. Note that it was before this francophone site was re-structured. My research focused on the Buck and their presence in Ukraine vast left-over of the URSS echelon strategy storage... with scarcely any maintenance.

Then I focused on the proximity fuse system (a US invention from WWII, which in fact started the first electronic industry), short wawes sent and received, complicated set-up and involving springs to actually trigger the explosion.
Optimal distance was 15 to 50 meters , explosion from little above and missile coming from front (not to be on pursuit mode).

My hypothesis still is that the Buck was pre-1991 era and not very well maintained, that the explosion did occur a little prematurely, killing the crew, causing extensive damages, but not actually destroying the plane capacity to fly

There enter the phantom Ukrainian hunter jet giving the "coup de grace". And this could explain the round entry holes, with on the same picture (left door of the cockpit) exit holes.

Russian defense Ministry was not fully affirmative of the presence of this fighter jet, but was fully positive on 3 buck systems with active radar (acquisition range 140 kilometers, that's 9 minutes to get ready).

The story of the pilot, there are some testimony at his landing, about a rather livid and upset fellow, he did divorce and commit suicide. What this is worse, I don't know.

note: for other reasons I did stop very fast collaborating wit the Saker Francophone.

Peter Williams , 5 days ago
Well the Brits keep such detailed notes of their weaponry. About 30 years ago I had the inner cocking lever of a Bofors 40/60 break, and within a few days we had all the documentation of its manufacture in Britain during WWII - names of the factory, the machinist, heat treating and quality inspection. All that for one small part of the breech block. You can guarantee that the Soviets would be just as methodical about a significant item like a missile.
Patrick Armstrong , 6 days ago
The photo is too tiny, but if you click on it it opens to a better size.
Ulenspiegel , 4 days ago
"Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments."

You still ignore the fact that even now the Russian admit that a BUG brought down the airplane. It was the Russian side which produced a lot of ridiculous statements (ground attack plane with limited service height was launching platform), faked internet sites (SU25) and then quite silently, when the official investigation of the debris of the PLANE could not longer be ignored, admitted that it was a BUG.

BTW: Experts were already a few days after the incident able to conclude that a ground based system must very likely be the culprit, simply by analyzing the many hundred photos of the plan fragments. It was clear that a very high density of fragments were in the front section, while missiles launched by airplanes would have caused damage in other sections (esp. wings around engines).

Patrick Armstrong -> Ulenspiegel , 3 days ago
Google is your friend Play Hide
Michael -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
The Buck system is composed of 3 vehicles one is for the long range acquisition radar. The missile does have an in-build acquisition radar but with a 35 miles range. The idea, and Bellingcat pictures supporting it, of a lonely lorry with a missing missile, was ridiculous.

While typing i get confused and have edited: it was a picture of the left side cockpit, and it did show round entrance holes and rugged exit. An ex German pilot was positive it was gun amo marks.

Yes I did read your piece in Russia Insider the day it was published. Thanks for your work.

Max van der Werff , 3 days ago
Telar driving backwards is incorrect. Russian MoD mistakenly took route presented by JIT as correct. View Hide
Prince Monolulu , 3 days ago
ELINT, and what we have not been told about, it is the key here.

The individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database.
The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers.

So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian.

Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Petri Krohn is unconvinced by the vanishing point argument pointing out that the Buk TEL does not sit flat on the trailer.

Yes, there seems to be something beneath the Buk-Tel, whatever it is. There are other trailer images that don't have this thing underneath. One can see it better in the video. Who is Petri Krohn?

What puzzles me me more are the "the truck's (blue)" lines. Why would you take the back of the cabin? Vs the sides as with the Buk-Tel on the trailer to make your point? For special effect? Heighten the difference to earlier neatly converging vanishing points?

Last but not least in that specific shot there is a slightly complicating camera angle. The shot is a bit sideways from the driving car. Which does not quite fit into the earlier continual straight ahead pattern.

But yes, the JIP did its best in impressive visualization too. See video below.
*******
Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster/Narrative conference 24 May 2018. The precise numbers are given here for the first time? Publicly? Pressure on the Russian. After all one has a lot more evidence one does not show we are told. From that perspective the response is not bad. See first video linked below.

So now we have new offer for the so far main suspect, the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, we are offered to look into the Ukrainian 223 Tereboylya Anti-Aircraft Brigade, now stationed in Stryi. The earlier Russian military unit 20152.

https://www.om.nl/onderwerp...

Here comes the more entertaining earlier version of the Public Prosecutors Service collection. There is more. Anyway, I vaguely remember this one. A visually coherent narrative for easy public consumption. It feels this was centrally challenged.

Play Hide
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
Patrick,

Re my earlier comment, the JIT info request seemed a bit odd. You'd think they would have access to Russians who could give them chapter and verse on what these numbers mean. Any thoughts?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
I haven't changed my position from this https://patrickarmstrong.ca...
Leaving the port engine intake out is all I need to convince me that it's just part of the anti-Russia war
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
Yes, I read your article at the time and again just now. It still makes sense to me.

Presumably the warhead on this missile identified by the MoD was of the older "non bow-tie" type (as per AA)? If so, it's all starting to look a bit like a QED, is it not?

Right from the beginning I wondered if Russia would have captured enough data to know what happened. Is that how you see it and if so, how do you rate the odds that Russia has been playing an incredibly long game on this one?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
We'd all like to wish they were but my thinking is that only when the numbers appeared were they able to have an actual FACT on which they could work. All the accusations against Moscow are simple assertions with no facts you can get your teeth into. Finally the Ukes were stupid enough to present a fact.
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 4 days ago
Yes.

So are you also suggesting that whatever evidence the Russians collected at the time of the incident wasn't incontrovertible enough to overcome what would be the automatic Western presumption that it must be faked?

In other words, while the Russians may know what happened they were previously unable to prove it to the satisfaction of a sceptical audience?

Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
2 days after View Hide
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days ago
Indeed, although not quite what I meant by "sceptical audience"!
Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
You're not suggesting that I think that the JIT is anything other than a coverup, are you?
Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
No, not at all.
Ingolf Eide , 5 days ago
It's almost amusing. At the JIT May 24 update briefing, Politie.nl reported that the following request for information was made:

"Jennifer Hurst, Commander of the Australian Federal Police, explained, on the basis of an animation that the JIT urges the public to think about answering three specific questions about both rocket components found on the crash site.

Do you recognize the handwriting of the number on the venturi? Do you have information about the numbers on the venturi and the casing? Or do you know anyone who knows about the meaning of those numbers? Are you or do you know someone with information about the missile in which these parts have been placed and to which unit this missile was delivered?

Hurst: "If you have an answer to one or more of these questions, then we urgently ask you to contact the JIT.'"

So it's just the Russian MoD being a good citizen . . .

P.S. At the same briefing the JIT noted they couldn't be certain these missile fragments belonged to the one that brought down MH 17. That caveat aside, however, this does seem a rather comprehensive response from Russia.

Snow Flake -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago
Ingolf, they even offer witness protections programs.
Ingolf Eide -> Snow Flake , 3 days ago
Wonderful. No takers I assume?
PRC90 -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days ago
Will we ever see the chain-of-custody record of these items ?

It would also be interesting to hear from (ex) tech intel exploitation people who have been out and about scavenging up bits of expended rocket case in the past, if in their experience the case displayed here should have been more deformed by it's terminal velocity (80 meters/second ?) impact with the ground.

Ingolf Eide -> PRC90 , 3 days ago
PRC90,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I didn't, and still don't, have a useful response to either of those questions.

[Sep 24, 2018] Why this Ukrainian revolution may be doomed, too

Blast from the past...
Notable quotes:
"... Kiev has become an accidental, burdensome ally to the West. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization only paid lip service to future Ukrainian membership, while the EU, which never had any intention of taking in Ukraine, pushed an association agreement out of bureaucratic habit more than strategic vision. ..."
"... The least charitably inclined claim that Poroshenko prosecuted the war in eastern Ukraine as a way of delaying reform. What's undeniable is that the shaky ceasefire leaves the Kiev government at the mercy of Putin and his proxies. Should anything start going right for Poroshenko, the fighting could flare back up at any moment. ..."
"... Everybody in Kiev understands that there's no way of reconquering lost territory by force. Ukrainian politicians publicly pledge to win back breakaway regions through reform and economic success. What they hope for is that sanctions will cause enough problems inside Russia that the Kremlin will run out of resources to sabotage Ukraine. Wishful thinking won't replace the painful reforms ahead. ..."
May 19, 2015 | http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/05/17/why-this-ukrainian-revolution-may-be-doomed-too/

At home, there is the possibility of more protests, a paralyzed government, and the rise of politicians seeking accommodation with Putin. "Slow and unsuccessful reforms are a bigger existential threat than the Russian aggression," said Oleksiy Melnyk, a security expert at Kiev's Razumkov Center. Even if Ukrainians don't return to the street, they'll get a chance to voice their discontent at the ballot box. Local elections are due in the fall - and the governing coalition between Poroshenko and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is so shaky that nobody can rule out an early parliamentary vote.

In its international relations, Ukraine is living on borrowed time - and money. A dispute over restructuring $23 billion in debt broke into the open last week with the Finance Ministry accusing foreign creditors of not negotiating in good faith ahead of a June deadline. An EU summit this week is likely to end in more disappointment, as Western European countries are reluctant to grant Ukrainians visa-free travel.

Kiev has become an accidental, burdensome ally to the West. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization only paid lip service to future Ukrainian membership, while the EU, which never had any intention of taking in Ukraine, pushed an association agreement out of bureaucratic habit more than strategic vision.

... ... ...

The least charitably inclined claim that Poroshenko prosecuted the war in eastern Ukraine as a way of delaying reform. What's undeniable is that the shaky ceasefire leaves the Kiev government at the mercy of Putin and his proxies. Should anything start going right for Poroshenko, the fighting could flare back up at any moment.

Ukrainian security officials say that the enemy forces gathering in the separatist regions are at their highest capability yet. The most alarming observation is that the once ragtag band of rebels - backed up by regular Russian troops in critical battles - is increasingly looking like a real army thanks to weapons and training provided by Russia.

... ... ...

Everybody in Kiev understands that there's no way of reconquering lost territory by force. Ukrainian politicians publicly pledge to win back breakaway regions through reform and economic success. What they hope for is that sanctions will cause enough problems inside Russia that the Kremlin will run out of resources to sabotage Ukraine. Wishful thinking won't replace the painful reforms ahead.

[Sep 23, 2018] I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 except the suspicion the Malaysia was also a target(may be due to the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal) and choice of Dutch was instrumental in the cover-up.

Official investigation looks more and more like 911 commission or JFK assassination commission. Powerful state via their intelligence agencies now have tremendous capabilities to hide even most egregious crimes and block any objective investigation for many years, if not forever.
After so many years the discussion of MH17 still revolves about establishing the basic facts. Especially facts that were ignored by official investigation. such as shelling the area by Ukrainian forces after the crash, or too quick launch of "highly likely" campaign by Western MSM (which now can be viewed as a strong suggestion that we deal with a false flag operation like was the case with Litvinenko poisoning and Skripal poisoning ). Why the flight path of MH17 was changes and differ from previous days also remain unclear (previous days they flue over Azov sea) . Why Ukrainian air defense units was deployed in the area and were active that day is also unclear. Rebels did not have any ir force. Visit of Brennan under fake name to Ukraine is another interesting part of the story. And there are many questions like that.
The question of "que bono" is also an interesting one. As is the question why false flag operation often happen when there are some maneuvers in the area like was the case with 811 and Skripal cases (and there were NATO maneuvers in Ukrainian airspace). As one commenter aptly observed " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "
Russia behaviour creates several questions as well: for example recent revelation of the serial number of the Buk rocket (which so far did not leave any trace in the air that we can refer too in pretty densely populated area). I saw horizontal trances of fragments that hit airliner, which suggests air-to-air attack. There were phone of the part of the wing with horizontal trace of the elements.
The stories about Ukraine Su-24 pilot who later committed suicide as well as about role of oligarch Kolomoychenko also do not fit into official version. None of them testifies before the commission, which signify the absence of the desire of the commission to gather facts that might contradict predefined outcome.
As the USA refused to provide any evidence and Ukrainian authorities hide their evidence we also have another "plausible" signs of a false flag operation directed on introduction of sanctions against Russia.
In any case the following discussion is pretty educational as it rehashes many argument for "Russian did not do it" point of view on this tragic accident.
Notable quotes:
"... The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. ..."
"... " However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. " ..."
"... One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′. ..."
"... I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation. ..."
"... Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds. ..."
"... At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia". ..."
"... At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing. ..."
"... Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. ..."
"... At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft. ..."
"... "In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?" ..."
"... As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial). ..."
"... The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on. ..."
"... That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty. ..."
"... The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness. ..."
"... Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane. ..."
Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com

ALCvA , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT

I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law. In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq. In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague. In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

Kees van der Pijl , says: • Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMT
@ALCvA I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMT
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "

The key sentence. Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France. This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.

Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.

It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda. Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts. One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ? Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz

Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/ showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Of course this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17

Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply

Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply

Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply

"International relations" is not a science.

Leave a comment

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July 2018
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April 2018 " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. " A weird compelling case.

They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it. Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.

I am not in the least convinced. The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions. About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.

But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide. If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.

If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done. But a BUK flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ? All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

Tom Welsh , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMT
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"

That is extremely puzzling -- indeed, inexplicable -- if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.

As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising -- it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.

Baron , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:30 pm GMT
An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

On the MH17:

Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgment on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:47 pm GMT
Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.
Mike P , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:49 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the Ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.
Mr. Hack , says: July 9, 2018 at 1:05 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Wizard of Oz , says: July 9, 2018 at 2:47 pm GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here. Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn't even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:03 pm GMT
@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them, as they don't have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:48 pm GMT
The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin "ordered" the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.
Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.
AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:49 pm GMT
I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal activity to Assange. BTW, that "investigation" already lasts for two years, with no end in sight. Quite natural when the fox "investigates" its own depredations in the hen house.

However, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the "official" narrative pushed by the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.

1. This "investigation" is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered. Judging by its length and meager results, this "investigation" is simply a cover-up, pretty clumsy at that.

2. If one discards the "evidence" from social media, which any self-respecting court of law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund "Bellingcat" are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.

3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary chain of custody was not observed.

4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single witness reported seeing that. Why?

5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?

6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never presented in four years. Why?

7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot's cabin, visible on many photos, that looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored. BBC video was removed from their site. Why?

8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent "conclusion" of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this "conclusion". Curious, no?

Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won't explain their actions, though, as they don't want to anger very influential forces pushing a different narrative.

To summarize, Roman dictum "cui bono" is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the perpetrators.

FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:20 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked? You're confusing things here

The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire [incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]

The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey

Specifically the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead

They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1

Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead

Here is the DSB final report of October 2015

On page 132 we have this

' it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile '

There is the problem right there The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38′

The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey the right shows the response of the DSB which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source page 132

' According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead '

So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source

And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry

In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are

And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years having been long ago replaced by updated versions

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMT
I would not trust neither the dutchies nor the ukrobanderisti in anything .
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage. No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
@Tulips I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given? It was ordered to fly lower.
This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
As far as I know no explanation was ever given
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:49 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

Also, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'

Again you are garbling known facts there was never any Russian 'satellite photo' it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time

The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues' apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:00 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.
In this case, my estimate, twenty You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.
FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:19 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. Ed there is nothing we can 'analyze' from a distance that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous 'Bellingcat'

The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels to the West which they probably should not have done considering that they end up getting blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands

The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations the first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules and we would presume it is professional you will note that they did not try to establish who fired the shot [or shots]

That is what the ICAO rules state the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future

The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke actually citing Bellingcat social media 'pictures' and such as 'evidence'

There is nothing that can be done about that it is clearly a kangaroo court

However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too I have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies in all honesty, I would say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the findings are whaat they say they are

But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here to really find out what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone those actual pieces need to be expertly examined

AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:28 pm GMT
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!

But, when you say this,


[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
Are you sure?
__________________

It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )

The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.

Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.

It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. I am not sure how many "accidental" deaths or "murders in the course of botched robbery" (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.

I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I'd love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.

republic , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:43 pm GMT
In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

I wonder why this purge is taking place?

Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice.

Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMT
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/09/who-was-stepan-bandera/

Those guys blew up the plain , and are trying to blow up everything

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 1:11 am GMT
@Anonymous Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.

As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,

This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down

As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route -- which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia -- for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

-- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:29 am GMT
@FKA Max

However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,...
This is exactly my conclusion.

I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.

Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months

British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down


As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.

A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route - which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia - for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.

- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17

FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9EWwNbSVE

This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:

Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of 'Buk missile unit'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw

BREAKING - MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sviL113eOU

MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb9Axg4DaeY

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:

If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :

PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .

Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We -- those with properly functioning intellects -- know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

Leave a comment

Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17

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Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

"Radar is able to detect two different objects."

Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

Vojkan , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:50 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
@jilles dykstra It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.

"MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the 'optimum' altitude," the airline said.
"However, an aircraft's altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet."

( https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mh17-requested-higher-flight-altitude-from-ukranian-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines-30442304.html ] rgds

skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

1. Der.

2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'

3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

4.

An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'

Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMT
there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine -- in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.

When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

republic , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:56 pm GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non July 10, 2018 at 4:59 pm GMT

@Wizard of Oz We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn't leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.
AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:12 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.
The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after sanctions were allowed.
The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never been asked, not even now.
As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was shot down. You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.
denk , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
How it all began .

2005, as per the Guardian
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, '

2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners.

mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air .

[tip of an iceberg]

From these facts alone,

Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once .
one stone killing three birds ?

Elementary, Watson !

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:56 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard - not a good look if one doesn't want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.

Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There's your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).

As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn't the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.

** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)

' Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun '

Sure thing, Perry Mason LOL btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest' nice work

For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon

Here's what that BBC article you linked to says

' The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day -- 160 planes flew over the region '

Now here is the rest of the story for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day a region more than half the size of Germany only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area

Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country

Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV] comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]

Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk

Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it

The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic

Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations

The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity

So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route ie airway L980 big difference

Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything

Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south

There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft] and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman

As for our friend Wizard may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:04 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz "Simple(st) solution"!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done - surely for certain - what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?

You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee. Life is simple. "Cui bono" is the key. The rest is hot air.

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:43 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement ?

' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17 '

Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever

And just to put this in perspective the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt' not from Russian sats

So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false

As for Higgins and Bellingcat we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon an 'idiot'

also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol

Hmm interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:55 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

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Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"

However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"

Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".

"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".

I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"

At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.

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July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university

' showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot' talk about chutzpah

Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight' yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread pretty pathetic

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:07 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. "If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive."
-- let's try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
The author wrote: "Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure."
The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
'"All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei.
This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach -- "Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths" -- to international law and the judicial system at large.
The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible criminal acts of Ukrainians?
Why has an expert in selling the ladies' underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King's College London admire the ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, " the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase "

FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:15 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

' Nothing to do with radar '

Sorry kid like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned

This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said here is a Dutch news report from 2017

And the google translation from the Dutch

' Kiev -- Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

"More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.

Russia had handed over the data -- shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight '

I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:16 pm GMT
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.
THEREFORE : x=y

both are true.

is this you, Mr. Elliot Higgins?
skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:31 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this one

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:37 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':

On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum...In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)

I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?

Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia's Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:
Yes No Undecided
2009 67% 1 5% 18%
2010 66% 9% 25%
2011 66% 14 % 20%
Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997
annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. Since when the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"

http://redpilltimes.com/leaked-email-by-dutch-diplomat-on-mh17-says-separatists-do-not-have-ability-to-take-down-a-plane-kolomoisky-being-set-up-for-fall/

https://nodisinfo.com/hacked-emails-prove-zionist-ihor-kolomoiskly-mh17/

https://southfrontdutch.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/de-man-achter-mh17-ihor-kolomoyskyi/

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:53 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here "the highest sources from the Russian Federation".

I have answered this above. You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:59 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

It's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.

Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.
Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:15 pm GMT

petitio principii fallacy?

hey lizard,

are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?

or,

are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its expansion?

And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about 'assassinated journalists' and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a temper tantrum.

Yes? No?

AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:16 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz You seem to be clever enough when you try hard... Do you understand why I say your use of "cui bono" is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy? The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.
FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:33 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.

If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level - or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine "I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us".Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).

If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so - or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?

' If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000 '

You have that completely backwards it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off

The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330 the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]

The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there

There is nothing unusual about any of this ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude

[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]

Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine not 'six or seven'

FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMT
@skrik

I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.

This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :


PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.

As I say, get a grip. We - those with properly functioning intellects - know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

-- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:

All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting

-- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:53 pm GMT
@Anon OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if anyone bothered), partisan guff? "tendentious, highly contestable, partisan "
Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was "highly contestable" and "partisan?"
1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? -- Try!
2. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about this quote? -- "All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol Nidrei "was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year. In "modern" Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the commencement of Judaism's holiest yearly event of Passover."
3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly insists?
4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/&#8211 ; What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about the US refusal to provide the evidence?
5. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about naming Elliot Higgins an ignoramus and Russophobe? http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/06/a-to-guide-top-anti-russia-think-tanks-us-funds/ -- You are welcome to enlighten the reader.
JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:59 pm GMT
@Rurik there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)

https://mh17scenario5.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/buk-launch.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4

what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine - in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.

When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.

The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.

Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.

I'll bet that those Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns to advance their plans. A special frisson.
JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:01 pm GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty He's the intellectual equivalent of a colostomy bag. Heh.

But actually, I think the contents of the colostomy bag is in the running.

Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:22 pm GMT

Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns

no doubt

somewhere else here there was a discussion about how the Zionists are upset with the Germans for being too passive, (after generations of being demonized as congenitally militant).. but now they want the Germans to get riled to go kill Arabs for them.

Neo-Nazis killing Russians in Ukraine must certainly give them a 'special frisson' like no other.

now how to get American goyim to kill Arabs and Persians to kill American goyim and Germans to kill Arabs and Poles to kill Russians and English to kill Persians and Sunnis to kill Shias and Americans to kill Sunnis and Shias and

no wonder they were dancing and high-fiving each other on 9/11

Wizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:29 pm GMT
@FB

'...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
You have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off...

The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...

The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...

There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...

[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]...

Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...

So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of words when there is no useful point to be advanced.
Wizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:35 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again. You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.
annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:58 pm GMT
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:


All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166 "I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc"
Sure. Mr. Higgins is also pretty sure that BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc. All because of his incomparable expertise.
Here is an opinion of the highly competent and highly principled Robert Perry: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an " amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud ." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.
More for FKA Max: "Higgins had stumbled into a potentially profitable (in terms of media exposure and possibly pledged funding) publishing venture. His output has been nothing if not consistent, viz: Consistent with what one would expect from promoters of the Anglo-US-NATO Official Narratives of geo-politics and the War on Terror, but done in a slipshod and blatantly partisan fashion that those who quote him (the Commercially-controlled media) are wary of claiming their own "
Enjoy the company: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
"Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat, a celebrated internet blog that specializes in using open-source information to blame Russia for every crime against humanity -- real or imagined -- committed so far this century." https://www.sott.net/article/388086-NATO-stooge-and-vulgar-twat-Eliot-Higgins-has-go-to-message-for-critics-Suck-my-balls
denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:58 am GMT
Why was mh17 shot down ?

To demonise Russia.

Why was mh370 'disappeared' ?

Following the 'disappearance' of mh370, there were spades of kidnappings of Chinese tourists by the Abu Sayaff gang. [1]

PM Najib wondered out aloud .
' Somebody is out to drive a wedge between Malaysia/China'

That was my first thought when hearing a Malaysian airliner had 'disappeared' with 200+ Chinese nationals onboard .

Before mh370

After .

Malaysians go online to fight Chinese criticism over MH370

https://www.todayonline.com/world/malaysians-go-online-fight-chinese-criticism-over-mh370

Missing MH370: China, Malaysia Mistrust Becomes War of Words

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/missing-mh370-china-malaysia-mistrust-becomes-war-words-n61481

Malaysia Airlines MH370: China's unusual anger and finger-pointing

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh370-china-s-unusual-anger-and-finger-pointing-1.2587969

minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

http://www.thatsmags.com/china/post/4057/malaysia-minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger

In MH370, upset Malaysian officials see China ploy to divert anger

https://www.malaymail.com/s/646263/in-mh370-upset-malaysian-officials-see-china-ploy-to-divert-anger

MH 370: The deterioration of Malaysia/China relations

http://mole.my/mh-370-the-deterioration-of-malaysiachina-relations/

Tip of an iceberg.

cui bono ???

[1]
Long known to be CIA patsies

http://socialistworker.org/2002-1/388/388_04_Philipinnes.shtml

NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 2:35 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. No doubt you were called in on a military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.
NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:03 am GMT
@Beefcake the Mighty Pot, meet kettle. Asshole. That's not really fair. FB quite clearly is very knowledgable on matters of aviation and aerospace and has written lengthy informative comments that have been praised by many readers whilst the Wiz is seen by most readers here as being on the same low level as Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and such like, having zero credibility and an obvious purpose here to confuse and obfuscate.
AnonFromTN , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:08 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur. Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:07 pm GMT
This site has a marvelous history publish even the insane comments, but credibly enough also many well founded and reasonable ones. The worst comments imo are those from revisionists, flat earthers and neo nazis.
On this article, I think it matters most to just ask: Qui bono; who benefited?
Major players on the world arena do stupid things, but there is always an agenda. And thing do not happen by chance, nothing ever did, history has proven that. Minor players have to be satisfied with the agenda presented to them by their overlords.
In this "peculiar incident" a airliner what downed in some way. Both Major players have been "peculiar" reluctant to pursue the case (In copmparison to their usual MO), Russian maybe a bit more openly rejecting the responsibility.
The minor vassal states hollering their masters script as usual. But who benefited ? Well the Ukrainians did initially benefit, but squandered everything away, a corrupt kleptocrat oligarchy as it is, so their final gains are worth nil, as neither IMF, NATO, EU and the US sees them as a "partner anymore, just as a basketcase of open thievery.
What is interesting are the Russian/US claims of satelite imagery, radio tapes, ect,ect that they have not published, any of them .. Hmmmmmmn They agreed to this , but why ?
Because one Dirty hand holds another, they are probably blackmailing each other, with stuff too sensitive to the public.
I have not got the fantasy, to think that the Russians did it or that they gave that kind of weaponry to a bunch of not adequately trained rebels. My fingers are pointed at Ukraine, I figure the reason the Russians dont pursue this line of thinking is that they do not wish, a total ciwil war on their borders (violent break up of Ukraine), nobody else wants it, and that is why we are going nowhere.
Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:17 pm GMT
And please, please! Anything Eliot Higgins has endorsed is false! Anything NATO funds is hardly non partisan or impartial, same goes Syrian watch thing in London cellar, who knows all!!
These guys have discredited citizen journalism incredibly, they are indeed tools of the Evil Empire.
annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:24 pm GMT
@FKA Max

Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat
This seems to be highly important and relevant information to be aware of to be able to solve the MH-17 case ;-)

Signs of the Times (Sott.net) is an alternative news website, originally founded on March 26, 2002 by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.

- https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times

annamaria ,

Do you also believe this article from sott.net ?

Aliens Don't Like to Eat People That Smoke!

Signs of the Times


But still, we think that there is MORE to the relationship between anti-smoking campaigns and alleged "aliens" - something sinister. The reader may wish to read our page on Diet and Health Related Questions as well as the Wave series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk from which the following has been extracted
[...]
Now, ... did you notice that it says that "animals use similar substances [acetylcholine antagonists or ANTI-nicotine] to paralyze their prey? We have to wonder about the oft reported conditions of paralysis associated with "alien interactions" and the almost rabid attack on smoking in our society.
- http://www.sott.net/signs/anti-anti-smoking.htm Archived link : http://archive.is/c9JIX

Q&A with Laura Knight-Jadczyk -- Skepticism in Research

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiBiUjiyddY

Good information here: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/

MH17 -- Russian GRU Commander 'Orion' Identified as Oleg Ivannikov

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/

Thanks again, annamaria , for introducing me to all this new information and all these new sources and resources: http://www.unz.com/article/revisiting-litvinenko-what-really-happened/#comment-2401541

I highly appreciate it, even if we don't agree on the narrative and conclusions, etc.

Never heard about FKA Max, but have a great respect for the late Robert Parry: https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/30/the-berkeley-tribute-to-robert-parry/
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an "amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine." " https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
I have a great respect for Unz Review and Consortiumnews but a zero respect for the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council that employs Higgins as "expert" -- along with another "expert," the fraudster Dm. Alperovitch of CrowdStrike fame: https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/crowdstrikes-alperovitch-is-a-vicious-fraud/

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/06/exposing-the-russian-hacking-fraud-by-publius-tacitus.html

FKA Max, stay with your beloved Belligcat and Atlantic Council -- the Unz Review forum is obviously too traumatic for you.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:38 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:

These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
:-) "Secret US 2006 Government Document Reveals Plan to Destabilize Syria by Using Extremists, Muslim Brotherhood, Elections:"

https://www.globalresearch.ca/secret-us-2006-government-document-reveals-plan-to-destabilize-syria-by-using-extremists-muslim-brotherhood-elections/5647017

"American officials say the U.S. government has had extensive contacts with a range of anti-Assad groups in Washington, Europe and inside Syria. To give momentum to that opposition, the U.S. is giving serious consideration to the election-monitoring scheme proposed in the document, according to several officials. The proposal has not yet been approved, in part because of questions over whether the Syrian elections will be delayed or even cancelled. But one U.S. official familiar with the proposal said: "You are forced to wonder whether we are now trying to destabilize the Syrian government."
Some critics in Congress and the Administration say that such a plan, meant to secretly influence a foreign government, should be legally deemed a "covert action," which by law would then require that the White House inform the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Some in Congress would undoubtedly raise objections to this secret use of publicly appropriated funds to promote democracy."
-- Who needs democracy in the US when the "only democracy in the ME" has a flaming desire to break the functioning Middle Eastern states?
"Neoconservative [ziocon] Think Tank Influence on US Policies:" http://historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:54 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:

These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
:-) If you insist, Mr. Hack, there are some Western reports on the collusion of ziocons with banderites (neonazis):
"The Kagans Are Back; Wars to Follow" https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/15/the-kagans-are-back-wars-to-follow/
Ziocons' tireless support for the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/14/fueling-more-bloodshed-in-ukraine/
"Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?" https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine
You are welcome to debunk these reports.
skrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:02 pm GMT
@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:

Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings

Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.

"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.

- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/

I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:


All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166

I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.

Dream on.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:26 pm GMT
Major Israeli Daily: Our Government Is "Arming Neo-Nazis In Ukraine": https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-10/major-israeli-daily-our-government-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine
Where are the main 52 American Jewish organization to condemn the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine?
skrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:31 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz Another shonk. For your trivial point.....The SMH is, with The Age, a shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US propaganda.

For your substantial deficiency.... Are you arguing that this photograph proves something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.

More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message. Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.

The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda

Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?

Let smh speak for itself :

Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values

Me: Haw #1

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014

Me: Lie #1

and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17

Me: Lie #2

the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week

Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant

Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict

Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..

Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.

mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor

denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:34 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra I also have wondered if hurting Malaysia was a secundary goal.
Soros indeed is hated in Malaysia, they think that he permanently increased the cost of living by speculating against the Malaysian currency Cui bono ?

First the geopolitical angle, namely fukus decades long effort to stir up shit in SCS, setting Asean/jp against China

'Located on the geostrategic Malacca Strait, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim oil-producing nation with a "Look East" policy allying itself with Japan and China. Last year the Malaysian and Chinese governments established an economic alliance, which includes Asian access to world oil reserves. In the eyes of Washington and its allies, these are sufficient grounds to treat Kuala Lumpur as an adversary .

Even though the Malaysian police force has cooperated closely with the US Embassy in the war on terror, which led to arrests of top-ranking Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, that is not good enough. The late Moammar Gaddhafi of Libya and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad also aided Washington in post-911 anti-terrorism, and look where it got them. It is not enough to be a friend of America. For a leader to survive, he must be a groveling yes-man, a political slave - and never mind America's long-forgotten principles of sovereignty or self-determination.' [1]

The main aim was to wreck KL/Beijing honeymoon, drove Malaysia into the anti Chinese posse.
KL/Beijing relation did go down a few notches post mh370

Meanwhile, fukus always try biggest bang for the buck and go for multi prong attacks.

The other objective could be to liquidate Chinese chip engineers.

'Among the 200-plus passengers bound for Beijing, the target group for the hijack is narrowing down to 20 tech employees working for Freescale Semiconductors, based in Austin, Texas. Among these programmers and systems designers are 12 Malaysians [ethnic Chinese ?] and 8 citizens of mainland China.' [2]

Then , Soros could be part of the caper, exacting his pound of fresh from Malayia. [3]

[1]

https://rense.com/general96/mh370.html

[2]

https://rense.com/general96/tinymicro.html

[3]

https://rense.com/general96/role.html

denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:59 pm GMT
@denk How it all began....

2005, as per the Guardian...
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad,...'

2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.

2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.

2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.

2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]

2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners. ...

mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air....

[tip of an iceberg]

From these facts alone,

Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.

As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once....
one stone killing three birds ?

Elementary, Watson ! Hmm

For Washington, surely this must be another one for Malaysia's chart sheet, another score to settle !

2004,
The SMH sneeringly opined

' Malaysia puts US in its place over offer to police busy sea lane

Malaysia has rejected a plan by the United States to deploy marines and special forces troops to counter potential terrorist attacks against international shipping in the Straits of Malacca, one of the world's busiest sea lanes.

The commander of US forces in the Asia-Pacific region, Admiral Thomas Fargo, last week revealed a plan to use troops aboard high speed vessels to police the straits, which run between peninsular Malaysia and the Indonesian island of Sumatra.

But in a rebuff, Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister, Najib Tun Razak, said at the weekend that control of the straits was the sovereign prerogative of Malaysia and Indonesia, and US military involvement was not welcome.

https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/05/1081017106683.html?from=storyrhs

Grrrr..
uncle must be straining at his leash over that one.

BUt then you cant keep a good man down for long, uncle sham is now coming into the Malacca Straits in a big way, FON and all that jazz.
where's Najib who gave uncle the finger ?

p.s.
SMH, The Age, The Australian, The conversation all declared me persona non grata.

annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 11:10 pm GMT
@Quartermaster Cui Bono? Russia. It was a Buk and it was a newer model that Ukraine does not have. There is footage of a group of "rebels" (actually Russian invaders) walking through the debris field saying, with surprise and regret, "we shot down an airliner."

If you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is unconscionable.

The legacy of McCain: http://www.voltairenet.org/article201925.html -- A traitor, warmonger, and coward.
"John McCain is an elected US Senator, and is also president of one of the branches of the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the secret services of the " Five Eyes " (USA-UK-Australia-Canada-New Zealand). On 22 February [2011], he was in Lebanon, where he tasked the transport of weapons in Syria to the Haririst deputy Okab Sakr. He also journeyed to Ersal in order to establish a future rear base for the jihadists.
On Friday 18 March [2011], an Islamist demonstration was staged at the exit of the Al-Omari mosque. The crowd chanted " Allah, Syria, liberty " -- The term should be understood in the sense given by the Muslim Brotherhood, that of "the freedom to apply charia law". During this demonstration, shots were fired both against the police and also against the demonstrators, without anyone knowing where they were coming from. It is probable, as we have seen in Venezuela, Libya, and other countries [see Kievan pitch 2014], that the shooters were from a third force tasked with creating an atmosphere of civil war and preparing a foreign invasion .
Senator McCain admitted that he was in permanent contact with the heads of the jihadists (including the commanders of Daesh) Confronted with a recording of one of his telephone conversations, Okab Sakr admitted that he had supervised the transfers of weapons to Syria."
-- The "war on terra" has been very profitable for MIC; the war has produced conflicts in the Middle East, where the real terrorists became the best buddies of the CIA/McCain and Israeli.
In Ukraine, Brennan (the CIA), Kagans (ziocons), and McCain have become the main promoters and supporters of neo-Nazi. (Hey nazi-hunters, where are you?)
The energetic "Quartermaster" could continue, ad nauseum, to repeating the amazing discoveries made by Eliot Higgins about BUK in Ukraine and WMD in Syria (Higgins is a joy of the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council), but these "discoveries" cannot obscure the facts of arms supply to both ISIS and neo-Nazis by the CIA, Israel, and by the obedient vassals from NATO.
In Ukraine, the banderites have made a pact with ziocons in a hope that by using the US influence, the banderites could establishing a banderite state. Dream on. Expect to be crushed by ziocons, and sooner than later.
Whereas the White Helmets' tales and Skripal affair' stupidities are hailed by MSM, the truth can be found on the alternative sites.

http://fact.international/2018/07/israel-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 2:58 am GMT
@FKA Max Even RT reported that the BND report was never intended to be conclusive but mainly "evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability" and that the Der Spiegel and other media outlets' reporting about it was inaccurate and misleading:

https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/ Archived link : https://web.archive.org/web/20170514120701/https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/


The Russian embassy in Berlin received an official response to note #3693 from October 27 regarding Germany's Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND intelligence agency) President Gerhard Schindler's allegations that local militia in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight in July.

" The media interpretation of the report of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND) president delivered to the Bundestag Committee overseeing intelligence activities on October 8 is incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context, " the note says.
[...]
German diplomats insisted that the BND's analysis and evaluation was based " on information obtained from intelligence and from open sources, " which included data from the interim report of the Dutch investigation commission conducting the inquiry. The report delivered by Schindler " evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability, " the note said.

The ministry stressed that according to the decision of the International Civil Aviation Association (ICAA), investigation of the MH17 flight crash was handed over to Dutch authorities, authorized to exclusively deliver all information on the issue.

RD Insight: Reason's for Putin's high approval rating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTKB4th1Rjg

Alexey Levinson, social research director at Levada Analytical Center talks about the reasons for Russian President Vladimir Putin's high approval rating.

"open sources" -- Eliot Higgins as the main provider? The scoundrel has zero scientific training, zero technical training, zero engineering training, and zero training in chemistry. Eliot Higgins was ridiculed by the experts in all of the above fields of knowledge. But the zionized Atlantic Council loves, loves, loves Higgins. Do you know why, "FKA Max?"
"The media interpretation" -- You mean, "interpretations" by MSM? Cannot stop polluting the Unz forum with the presstituting propaganda, "FKA Max?"

"Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence" by By Robert Parry

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/

"In a letter to Kerry dated Jan. 5, 2016, Thomas J. Schansman, Quinn's father, noted Kerry's remarks at a press conference on Aug. 12, 2014, when the Secretary of State said about the Buk anti-aircraft missile suspected of downing the plane: "We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this airplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
The analysts' uncertainty meshed somewhat with what I [Robert Parry] had been told by a source who had been briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts shortly after the shoot-down about what they had seen in high-resolution satellite photos , which they said showed what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile.
The source who spoke to me several times after receiving additional briefings about advances in the investigation said that as the U.S. analysts gained more insights into the MH-17 shoot-down from technical and other sources, they came to believe the attack was carried out by a r ogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch. [See, for instance, Consortiumnews.com's "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts" and "The Danger of an MH-17 Cold Case."]
Do you know this oligarch, "FKA Max?" The Ukrainian/Israeli thug that has been a "pillar of Ukrainian Jewish community?"
Have you heard about Awan affair, the greatest breach of the US cybersecurity? There was certain Israel-firster involved in the crime (she was also instrumental in rigging the Dems nomination for POTUS). No persecution.
Have you heard about the Wiesenthal Center of Nazi-hunters? Not a peep from the Center with regard to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The revival has involved certain Kagans family, hence the absence of the "peeps."
So please, take your Higginsian revelations about Ukraine and Syria to some other place where they will be appreciated. You know, the zioconish NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Guardian, and likes.

denk , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:16 am GMT
Not OT,

mh370 and mh17 are part of the package deal , a pay back to KL 'insolence' , it has practically bankrupted the MAL,.

Is it possible for a Boeing 777 flying thru SCS, one of the most electronically monitored hot spots in the world, then 'disappeared' without trace ?

Dr Mahathir didnt think so,
'CIA withholding information on flight MH370′

Malaysia made a formal request to Oz for info about mh370.

Canberra .
'impossible, it concerns our national security'
[ sic ]

Why Oz ?

cuz the CIA runs Pine Gap base operates some of the most powerful radars in the world.

How powerful ?

*It can pick up the type of airliners taking off from Changi airbase.

*It routinely monitored , intercept communications from the regions military commands .

*There was even a live broadcast of video conference bet the Malaysian high command in Aussie parliament, to impress on the capability of Pine Gap !

So the question remains,
What dark secrets are the Aussies hiding from the world ?

Den Lille Abe , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:22 am GMT
@Anonymous "Nothing ever happens by chance". On the face of it that looks absurd so let me try and tease out your meaning.

May I assume that you don't mean that everything in the human world happens because at least one human actually wanted it to and caused it to happen?

So let's try with whoever fired a BUK missile which brought down a civil airliner
(a) just accidentally firing when he or another was just using the nearest available plane to centre the aiming mechanism
(b) the intended target was one plane flying near another but, for technical reasons, the missile ended up destroying the wrong plane.
Etc.
Kindly explain your "nothing ever happens by chance" so your readers know what you mean by it. What I meant specifically is when you take events that we ponder in history, there alway seems to an unrlying story that explains the event. An instigation that is plausibly the trigger, causing the event to happen.
The murder in Sarajevo, it was not a lone Anarchist, it was a planned assassination, carried out by a nation state through proxy. But at the surface, it was just a nut job. But it was a thoroughly thought out terror plot, meant to increase tensions to the brink of war and it succeeded, albeit the outcome in the end, historically was dire.
Of course accidents happen and brash foolishness also plays a part, but often things are planned and often enough they backfire.

skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:27 am GMT
@Anonymous Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles why not occasionally put some effort into contributing to the substance and at least answer other commenters points.

Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles at least answer other commenters points

1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises -- like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.

3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, "

4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.

Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]

Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.

Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can -- in my own 'style.'

Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:

FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'

Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a ' *circumstantial* ' argument.

We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F -- k the EU!" If the cap fits

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:36 am GMT
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crash

https://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png

The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.

Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK

MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:


DSA - May 25, 2018

You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929


Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
​Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschuss

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html


Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.

Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.

Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.

Google Translate translation:

However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.

The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.

Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.

Los Angeles Times: "U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was mistake." http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
-- Do you understand that the US has "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile?" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
-- Again, FKA Max, who is that Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch whom you are so strenuously protecting? " the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE
-- Cheerleading for ziocons, FKA Max, with all your Kol Nidrei enthusiasm?

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crash

https://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png

The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.

Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK

MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf

Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:


DSA - May 25, 2018

You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929


Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
​Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschuss

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html


Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.

Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.

Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.

Google Translate translation:

However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.

The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.

Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.

You also tried to pollute this site with your opinions on the Skripal Affair. Enjoy: https://robinwestenra.blogspot.com/2018/03/craig-murray-on-skripal-affair.html

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/04/01/skripal-fools/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:56 pm GMT
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence

versus

Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay

e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!

annamaria ,

what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.

Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?

Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?

Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?


In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png

Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?

Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:


The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16

Education as the Elixir of Growth II

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg

Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/

Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?

Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum with the Atlantic Council stuff.
Higgins "investigative" journalism, including his hapless manipulation of photographs from Ukraine, has been debunked by the real experts. Google the debunking yourself.

Los Angeles Times: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems." The US intelligence community has the "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
" the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE

-- You have been shilling for ziocons, FKA Max. Whether you are upset with the banderites lack of success in the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) or you are just another unhappy aliya in Israel, your "research" shows desperation. Anyway, you are not taken seriously.

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/

annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMT
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidence

versus

Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay

e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!

annamaria ,

what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.

Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?

Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?

Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?


In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png

Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?

Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:


The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16

Education as the Elixir of Growth II

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg

Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/

Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?

Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.

"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."

-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.

denk , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
@Biff First place I thought of when I first heard the news was Diego Garcia. It seems others had the same hunch. Is there evidence? Keep digging.

http://www.volusia.com/new-chilling-mh370-diego-garcia-links/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/mh370-missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-latest-new-evidence-development-conspiracy-theories-what-a7703531.html

https://www.disclose.tv/hijacked-flight-370-passenger-sent-photo-from-hidden-iphone-tracing-back-to-secret-us-military-base-310506

Evidence ?

Other than the fisherman in Maldives who saw a low flying airliner .

It there's any evidence at all it'd prolly reside in the Pine Gap log somewhere.
But what can we do if Oz says we cant have it ?

In civvy case, a court can order a building owner to hand out its cctv tapes to assist a murder investigation,.
On the international level, its entirely different matter cuz the 5lies are above any international law, never mind their constant bleating about a ' rule based international order'.
Its the law of jungle .backed by NATO.
Who's gonna issue a search warrant to NATO ?

Then again, in a civvy murder case, a beneficiary of the deceased would never be appointed as investigator.
BUt this is exactly what happened in the mh370 case where the Malaysian police was ' assisted' by CIA/FBI !
Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop !

Judge, prosecutor and executioner all in one.
No wonder the Malaysian police chief was driven to moan aloud ,
" I doubt this case will ever be solved' !

P.S.
I rarely if ever sit thru a video , preferring to read its transcript.
But I recommend this video if you'r interested in the mh370 case, its worth your time.

Interview with Mathias Chang, top aide to Dr Mahathir,

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:33 pm GMT
" added elements such as humanitarian intervention "

There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.

skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:41 pm GMT
@annamaria Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.

"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)

-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."

-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.

Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum

Me: Yes. 'It' is known as a troll [ *it* is un-sexed; especially when trolls align with 'the great Satan' and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they de-humanise themselves.]

My recommendation: I ** 3 = Identify, inform, ignore. rgds

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:42 pm GMT
Great article!
Explains a lot.
Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:47 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. The author clearly set forth the parameters of his article at the beginning of the article.

The article is not a "whodunnit." The article is an analysis of cui, in the end, bono.
How was the incident used to further an agenda.
That is what the author said he would do and that is what he did.
So your complaint is beside the point.

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention.
This analysis is so biased and inaccurate that it has no basis to hang together with a coherent conclusion. This quote is a good example of the author's inarticulate manner in presenting his own completely fantasized (but original) gibberish. Ukraine trying to draw Moscow into the civil war directly? Why not just further this line of nonsense and declare that Ukraine invited the 'little green men' into the Crimea to have it annexed by Russia too? :-) Troll alert!
No gibberish in this article.
Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:59 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. "Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology."

I don't think the author says anything about false flags.
He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
Read the article before commenting!

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 12, 2018 at 9:02 pm GMT
@Skeptikal " added elements such as humanitarian intervention "

There is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n12/pankaj-mishra/the-mask-it-wears

Neoliberalism is indeed a scourge.

FB , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:20 pm GMT
@annamaria You have been identified as a polluter of Atlantic Council (zioconish) persuasion.
FKA Max, a representative of Elliot Higgins on Unz forum. Speaking of little poofter Eliot Higgins

Here is a bit of info most people probably don't know the website bellingcat use for photo 'analysis' Fotoforensics.com well the founder of that website Dr Neal Krawetz, has slammed the group for misusing the software

He's not the only image analysis professional who debunks the bellingcat BS Jens Kriese is a professional image analyst in Hamburg, Germany and the founder of the IRISPIX photo archive in an interview with respected German media outlet Der Spiegel, he debunked the supposed bellingcat 'debunking' of Russian sat imagery

' SPIEGEL ONLINE: What's your personal conclusion about the satellite images?

Kriese: The first thing to die in war is the truth. Each side likes to throw random smoke bombs. There is no way of knowing if the images show what Moscow is claiming.

What one can say, however, is that this "analysis" has achieved nothing besides raising awareness of Bellingcat. '

Notice the quotation marks Kriese places around the word 'analysis' so an actual professional dismantles underwear salesman Higgins big surprise there same as Prof Postol dismantles his BS about chem weapons in Syria

Incidentally Spiegel subsequently ran an apology for taking the Higgins poofter BS at face value

Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:21 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra No confusion whatsoever.
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside. "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."

Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . .

Greg S. , says: July 13, 2018 at 3:32 am GMT
I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.

All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal.

denk , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:42 am GMT
@Skeptikal Unfortunately I cannot make out what Chang is saying about "global tsunami." 58:00. He swallows his words at that point and the most important info is garbled. He repeats what he said, but once again it is not intelligible. The interviewer does not help. What is Chang saying about "214"? What kind of "global tsunami" will cause things to "spill out"? In fact, quite a lot of what follows is unclear. Thanks for the JFK film.

I recommended Chang principally cuz he's the first one who pointed out there's a massive air sea war game going on and mh370 was flying right into that 'eye of storm'.

Was it possible that the AWACS, spy planes, spy ships, etc didnt detect the airliner ?

In fact there was also an air exercise going on when mh17 was shot down . ! [2]

really makes one wonder if these 'war games' accompanying 911, mh17, mh370 and terror drills on the days of Sandy Hook, London 7/7, Boston marathon were there to cover up a crime, a drill that turned live ? [3]

Ian Fleming's law of probability applies.

Here's a Chang video with better sound track but I'd have to re- watch it to see whether I can answer any of your questions. [watched it some years back]

[2]

http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2014%E2%80%B3/

[3]

http://whale.to/c/terror_drills.html

p.s.
having problem accessing UNZ lately.

FB , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:57 am GMT
@FKA Max So, you are basically claiming that the Tungstène software is lying.

I have to give it to you, you are uniquely and expertly brazen.

Photo Expert: 'A Manipulated Image Is Not Necessarily a Lie'


In the age of digital photography, it's become increasingly easy to modify, process or manipulate the content of an image, and increasingly harder to sort truth from fiction.

In 2009, under the impulsion of the French Ministry of Defense, the computer science technologies company eXo maKina developed Tungstene, a program that can reveal changes made to a digital file. Just a few weeks after World Press Photo, the world's leading photojournalism competition, was forced to disqualify 20% of final entries because of excessive manipulation, Roger Cozien, the man behind Tungstene, discusses the relevance of truth in photography in an interview first published in French in OAI13 and republished here for the first time in English.

- http://time.com/3897858/photo-expert-a-manipulated-image-is-not-necessarily-a-lie/

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F05%2Ftungstene-north-korea-2.jpg

In this photograph of North Korean troops engaging in a tr[ai]ning exercise, eXo maKina was able to detect that parts of the image had been duplicated and enhanced.

You are currently between the "Name-calling" and "Ad Hominem" level of "Graham's hierarchy of disagreement". Without the insults, bad manners and bad temper you are currently displaying, you could actually make it to the "Contradiction" or even "Counterargument" level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham%27s_hierarchy_of_disagreement

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg/400px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg.png Holy mother of jesus another friggin spam storm from retardo boy

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation ?

What part of this did you not understand ?

SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID

Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'

I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO

Again that flies over your retarded head what does it take to make a retard understand basic English ?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT does not an ad hominem make moron

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:31 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.

Don't tantalize us. Do give a link to the report of the Spanish (!) air traffic controller's statement. sounds odd. Pay in Ukraine would be much lower than in Spain though I suppose he could have married a rich Ukrainia
n's daughter or ex .

Also, while waiting, I'll guess that someone sacked for being drunk on the job decided to sell a story to TV.

Much more important how do you deal with the DSB's 250+ page report which, from memory, rejects all theories involving other aircraft in the near vicinty of MH17 based on both Ukrainan and Russian radar which showed MH17 but no other planes?

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:44 am GMT
@Skeptikal "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."

Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . . Have you done a patent search? It's usually not difficult if you want to supplement hearsay.

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:55 am GMT
@Gerard Quote : "Most importantly they had the motive". Agreed this is the most important question of all. After the first report I wrote to the Dutch DIB in The Hague asking as to whether the board had considered the motive and also what motive the East Ukranian separatists could have prompted them to hand over in good faith the flight recorders. Of course I did not receive a reply and did not expect a reply. Hitherto I have never received a honest and coherent answer to those two questions. Personally I have no answer to the question what motive Russia could have to shoot down a passenger liner in broad daylight.
I am still awaiting serious answers to those two questions.
(Sorry I couldn't read all comments) I think you are seriously missing the point that the default hypothesis is the best answer, namely that no one had a motive to shoot down MH17. If, instead of writing to what you call the "Dutch DIB" you had read the Dutch Safety Board's report you would have spared being treated as an irritating gadfly. The DSB's job was technical explanation not analysis of political or military motives. Moreover it might have occurred to you that a very good reason for handing over the black boxes was to avoid the inferences which would naturally be drawn by refusal to hand them over. Indeed it makes sense that Russia instructed its protegés to avoid doing something silly like hiding the black boxes.
Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:14 am GMT
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?

What part of this did you not understand...?


SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...

Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...

https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Have you read the DSB report? Given the amount of time you are putting into whatever cause it is you support its 250 or so pages shouldn't deter you. Interesting in particular how many online comments on MH17 it shows to irresponsible or trollish blathering. The holes are obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes. There were hundreds of metal fragments in the pilots' bodies. There were no other aircraft nearby etc etc. So .

If you have read what must now be the starting point for discussion what do you say is wrong with the report, and on what evidence and reasoning?

Can you at least be one of those who is ear headed enough to see that the DSB report goes nowhere near saying that anyone, let alone Russians, deliberately shot down MH17?

Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:20 am GMT
@Greg S. I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.

All "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal. And why do you like that conspiracy theory? A lifelong taste for fairy stories?

skrik , says: July 13, 2018 at 9:09 am GMT
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...

Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?

What part of this did you not understand...?


SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...

'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...

Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?

Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...

https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Err, not exactly OT, but consider my 'it' characterisation may be close to the mark -- if FKA Max is a robot = AI experiment [going wrong!] Consider this month alone it's posted 74 times so far, with a 'nom-life-time' average of over 320 words per post, noting a lot of cut'n paste included = getting towards 2k text per day, with a non-trivial number of incoherent sections. An erring robot for the FUKUSIL empire! rgds

AnonFromTN , says: July 13, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
@Anon I don't see you having tagged Wizard of Oz comments with Troll so are your readers to infer that your definition of a troll is someone whose questions you can't answer or whose nitpicking pedantry (as perhaps you see it) has got under your skin?

But you do say something of general interest. You allege that there are lies in a post which was nearly all relaying what the Dutch Safety Board said so it is a bit hard to see what you meant by "lies". Would you care to elucidate - unless of course your "lies" too, like "troll" was a Humpty Dumpty word. I did not mark that personage as Troll because somehow the site does not allow me to do that.
Now, as to lies, here is an incomplete list:

1. None of the pieces of material evidence satisfied chain of custody rules required by the law in most countries, including the Netherlands.

2. Alleged missile fragments "from the site" were provided by one of the suspects, Ukraine. Their provenance was not (and could not be) ascertained.

3. Shrapnel pieces. I quote DSB findings "The numerous injuries resulting from perforation of the pre-formed fragments after detonation of the warhead immediately killed the three crew members in the cockpit. There were no pre-formed fragments found in the bodies of the other occupants."

4. Site access: in contrast to WoO, DSB does not complain about site access (item 2.12.1 of the report, 1st paragraph). The second paragraph talks about security situation. If fact, Ukie military shelled the area of the wreckage for weeks (mentioned in DSB report on p. 54, without specifying who was shelling the area, which is a giveaway). WoO does not acknowledge that, blaming Donetsk People's Republic instead.

5. Most foreign objects found in passenger remains were identified as personal belongings, parts of the plane, and stones/coal particles from the ground (pp. 84, 86, 95).

6. A number of metal fragments were found and analyzed. Some could have been high-energy pieces from whatever downed the plane (items 2.15.2 and 2.16.2).

7. Traces of several explosives were found: RDX, TNT, and PETN (p. 93). Only one explosive is used in Buk missiles.

8. There were two (not one) peaks of sound from cockpit recorder before the crash (pp. 11-112).

9. Item 3.8.4 is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be included.

One can continue, but what's the point? The other issues (items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8), as well as the fact that international airlines fly through the Russian airspace, but avoid Ukrainian, which I raised in my post (#45) are studiously avoided by that "WoO" personage and other trolls from the same side. Sapenti sat.

FB , says: July 14, 2018 at 5:22 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra I am Dutch, and of course the disaster starled us.
Hardly anyone in our country has no personal connection with someone who died, or someone who lost a relative or friend.
A friend of one of my children lost three relatives.

However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military 'experts' knew it was a Russian BUK.
That on the afternoon of the disaster prime minister Rutte made a phone call to vice prime minister Asscher, so secret that Asscher, on vacation in the south of France, had to call Rutte on a land line so that, as Asscher stated 'the Russians could not listen in'.
On the day of the disaster the Netherlands blocked sanctions against Russia, the next morning sanctions were possible.

Since then the accusation, without much proof, as far as I can see, and without any motive 'that Russia did it' has been repeated over and over again.
Memorials were erected, remembrances all over the place.
So to be honest, I do not believe one word of the accusation.
The only possibility of Russian implication is an accident, Ukraine abusing overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers, in the expectation that nu BUK would be fired.

The possibility of shooting down MH17 deliberately, in the tradition of Sept 11 and Pearl Harbour, quite probable, in my opinion.
These investigations, read the Warren report on the Kennedy murder, not worth the paper they're written on.
In the Warren case, Whitewash wiped the floor with Warren.
If something similar will be published on the Dutch report, I would not be surprised. Jilles I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it

From a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game ie so-called citizen 'journalism' here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected

' Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.

They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.

The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was '

A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer

jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:05 am GMT
@AnonFromTN The organizers of the crime knew exactly what is going to happen and how they intended to spin the event. What else is new? There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea
jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:19 am GMT
@FB Jilles...I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it...

From a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game...ie so-called citizen 'journalism'... here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected...


'... Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.

They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.

The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was...'

A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer... The fact that I'm Dutch and follow Dutch 'news', plus that I've never heard of this Max van der Werff, tells a lot, I suppose.
But, as with Sept 11, I'm no longer interested in detailed discussions about events.
They just muddy the waters.
Neither the rebels, nor Russia had any interest in shooting down a commerial airliner, while the west had.
Naming the criminal who is supposed to have done it, a Russian army officer, can also not convince me, as the investigation club intends to ask him why he did it.
AnonFromTN , says: July 15, 2018 at 2:41 pm GMT
@jilles dykstra There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea There are many indications who organized this provocation: only the organizers could have responded with the speed the US authorities did. I would not be surprised if the Dutch government was in on the game ahead of time, too. After all, what are vassals for? As we know, the king is played by its courtiers.
Robjil , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:13 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "

Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up.

Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 15, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMT
@Robjil "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "

Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up. These far right Ukrainian groups are either hired muscle who are too dumb to know that they'll be disposed of once they've outlived their usefulness, or directly bankrolled as front operations by the Jewish oligarchs running the Ukraine, as a diversionary tactic. Probably some combination of both, even Putin fails to ask the right questions about them.

annamaria , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack

Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
I don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. " the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting?"
-- You imply that the revival of neo-Nazism, with the considerable and decisive help from ziocons, and the resultant sufferings of Ukrainian Jews are self-excluding. They are not.
-- And where have you found, in my posts, a conflation of all Jews with zionists/ziocons? It is like saying that the US citizenry is made up of Cheneys and Kristols. This is not true. Speak for yourself.
AnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:35 am GMT
@FKA Max

I really don't understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it. I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS insignia?
You might be on to something:

The Straight-Edge Neo-Nazi Group that Attacked a Ukrainian Roma Camp


" We really understand that Russia could be behind it, but I can't say it with 100% certainty, because it wouldn't be a correct thing to do, " Hrytsak said at a joint press-conference with Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Hrytsak stated that "a namesake organization was registered in Russia in 2014," although it's not clear if he meant if it was formalized in Russia or popped up on the radar there. If he was referring to the large VK group, Hrytsak is mistaken, as Popovich is and was Ukrainian. While the Kremlin has directly funded and supported numerous far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Europe and Russia, most notably through the proxy of billionaire Konstantin Malofeyev http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415623 , there are no apparent links between the Sober and Angry Youth and the Kremlin other than typical links of pan-Slavism present in many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in the region.

Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs also claims that, regarding the lethal attack on Roma, Russia has an interest in presenting Ukraine as "a certain radical reality that doesn't adhere to human rights."
[...]
Many Ukrainian far-right groups have a fervent anti-Russian position in relation to the war in the Donbas, including the formation of armed battalions , as seen with Right Sector's "Volunteer Ukrainian Corps," Azov Battalion, the St. Mary's Battalion, and so on. In contrast to these groups, the Sober and Angry Youth groups across Ukraine rarely express strong feelings one way or another in relation to the war, instead focusing on issues related to white supremacy, driving out migrants from Ukraine, and outing and attacking LGBT individuals. Ragozin summarized their position succinctly in a recent tweet, saying that the concerns of the Sober and Angry Youth "transcends borders and national loyalties," with their battle for white supremacy in the region overriding the war between Ukraine and Russia in the country's east.

- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/ Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.

Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase).

NoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:26 am GMT
The Big Lie lives! And you'll hear it again, and again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/16/russia-must-account-for-role-in-shooting-down-mh17-says-g7

Anon , [130] • Disclaimer says: July 16, 2018 at 12:32 pm GMT
@skrik

Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles ... at least answer other commenters points
1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises - like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.

3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, ... "

4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.

Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]

Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.

Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can - in my own 'style.'

Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:

FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.

a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches

add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies

The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'

Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a '*circumstantial*' argument.

We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F--k the EU!" If the cap fits ... Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F ** k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:53 pm GMT
@Anon Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F**k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world. Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.

FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason.

annamaria , says: July 16, 2018 at 6:52 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.

Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase). Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it."

AnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:52 pm GMT
@annamaria Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it." Judging by the amount of spam it posts and by total lack of intelligence or selection, you are probably right. Will ignore that thing from now on. Then again, a Ukie troll, even though biologically human, could be at the same level of intelligence (meaning lack thereof). After all, Ukies have medically certified retard as a speaker of their parliament. Still, whether a computer script or a Ukie, that thing should be ignored.
skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 10:14 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.

FYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason. thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],

testing;preview works but publish disappears

skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 1:18 pm GMT
@skrik thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J... Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],

testing;preview works but publish disappears

[1st attempt was 'marked as spam' but later published; the rest:]

, Q: Who benefited from the maidan inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' "the bad Russians!" campaign, one sees the modus operandi trend and cui bono whodunnit. MH17 fits to the FUKUSIL pattern, *not* to the Russians. Then see Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the impossible and WYSIWYG = the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria. They just can't help themselves; they *must* try to resist the irresistible but their very own actions only dig the criminal FUKUSIL deeper into their hole. rgds

NoseytheDuke , says: July 18, 2018 at 12:58 am GMT
https://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324
NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 1:31 am GMT
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.

What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.

Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.

More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.

There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."

But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece. Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.

Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?

p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.

MattBoi , says: July 19, 2018 at 2:09 am GMT
@NoseytheDuke Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.

Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?

p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.

This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.

Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.

In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 5:04 am GMT
@MattBoi This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.

Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.

In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html

And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end. A commendable attempt by you but a total fail nonetheless. If you've seen the shape of BUK shrapnel you'd realise what a massive stretch it is to even suggest that those sharp edged pieces hitting thin metal sheeting at high velocity would result in making round holes has a "benign explanation". By definition, they are designed to shred their target. That those holes would reveal both an entry and exit direction of that shrapnel while coming from the same source would require "magic shrapnel" with magical properties along the lines of the "magic bullet" of JFK fame.

The clear giveaway for me was the rush to judgement by both politicians and media, worldwide. The near instant removal of contradictory testimonials, such as the BBC broadcast of the eye-witnesses, the unconventional investigation which included one potential (and the more likely) culprit, Ukraine. The select language used by media throughout this saga has been a giveaway too, as is you providing a link to a source that was originally set up by the CIA and is now funded by Congressional whores in the USA.

I notice these are your first attempts at commenting here. A weak effort to be sure but with practice you may yet rise to the level of Quartermaster so don't be discouraged.

skrik , says: July 19, 2018 at 3:01 pm GMT
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.

What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.

Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.

More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.

There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."

But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece.

Of course not, because it was an accident!

OK; a sad and sorry, feeble attempt, but let's see. A BUK [from somewhere, anywhere] arrives at a launch-spot, is fired by some crew [who is obviously way 'under-qualified'] and hitting 'by accident' MH17, which just happened to have been put on that specific, far from normal track = anomalously, deliberately by Ukrie air-traffic-control, 'best feeble guess' = presumably the crew thinking that they are shooting down an Ukrie warplane [only Ukries have warplanes in that area].

Perhaps the BUK was captured by 'rebels' [recall Reagan-sponsored rebels were his 'patriots'], or perhaps, as bellingcat asserts, Russia actually sent in the BUK with crew, who were also so incompetent that they perpetrate this 'accident.'

Q: You really believe that? Who could accept that as an explanation with anywhere near maximum probability? It's simply too complicated; contradicting KISS = keep it simple stupid!

A: As I've already said above at lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

Premeditation could be a) getting an *UKrie* BUK pre-positioned, then b) *UKries* putting MH17 into the death-zone. Der, it's simply 1 + 1 = 2; pre-position BUK, divert MH17 and BLAM! All Ukries' own work. Modus operandi [= false-flag atrocity psyops] and cui bono [PNAC/Yinon/Nuland-$5bio Plan], are SOP for FUKUSIL. Then, there are the precisely circular entry/exit holes which *cannot* be dismissed by any amount of hand-waving.

Note that this purported 'accident' as asserted/supported by FKA Max, MattBoi, peterAUS & Wizard of Oz et al. as the typical pro-FUKUSIL vigilante posse, is precisely the same situation as a little boy finding a gun and shooting his sister dead, then blaming the little boy. Look for the gun provider/trigger-pull commanders: FUKUSIL by a country 1.609km. Suck on that, sickos.

kgbgb , says: July 19, 2018 at 7:20 pm GMT
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.

Eye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.

In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking websites showed MH17′s path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).

This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.

I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't find it.

kgbgb , says: July 19, 2018 at 8:59 pm GMT
@republic In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.

On July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.

Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.

I wonder why this purge is taking place?

Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice. Zero Hedge changed their servers and/or software at the beginning of this year. If I recall correctly, all comments before that time were lost. Before then, you could go right back to the founding of the site.

I've just checked, and now comments are available back to part way through 1st of June 2017, so maybe they are gradually working backwards restoring them -- but I don't expect it to be a high priority for them. It's a pity, as the missing comments were often the main attraction of the site, full of intelligent analysis and useful links. The quality of the ZH commentariat declined noticeably at the time of the 2016 election, so we are missing the really good stuff.

NoseytheDuke , says: July 20, 2018 at 1:15 am GMT
@kgbgb In the days immediately after the incident, the commercial flight-tracking websites showed MH17's path as having crossed the Donbass only on that day, but as being over the Sea of Azov on all previous days, going back for something like 10 to 14 days. (Looking further back required membership).

This was discussed below the line on relevant Guardian articles at the time. I mentioned one website, I think FlightAware; others mentioned another. People agreed that this was circumstantial evidence that if the shoot-down was a deliberate plot, then that plot was Ukrainian, as they could decide the route. Unfortunately, when we returned to the websites a few days later, they had been 'corrected' to show the plane following the Donbass route every day. It was quite shocking to see The Ministry of Truth working in real time.

I am no longer a Guardian reader. On returning recently, I found it impossible to link to the discussion, as the comment system has been changed. Perhaps there is a way, but I couldn't find it.

Thank you for your comment. I do read The Guardian but mainly to see just how pungent is the crap of the day that they're peddling. Another thing about MH17 is the video that was supposed to show the BUK being transported across the border from Russia, until it was pointed out that a billboard for a car dealer some 400kms away was seen in the video. Car dealers advertise locally so the video was a blatant fraud and I wonder why anyone would go to that trouble if not to attempt to cover the tracks of a pre-planned false-flag event. Australia's Channel 9 did a 60 minutes program full of nonsense worthy of Elliot Higgins where they also tried to establish "facts" that implicated Russia. Only fools swallowed it but sadly, there is no shortage of wilful fools. Cheers
Rurik , says: July 22, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMT
https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-suppressed-evidence-machine-gun-like-holes-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-not-brought-down-by-a-buk-missile/5648099
NoseytheDuke , says: July 23, 2018 at 1:23 am GMT
@FKA Max John Kerry responsed by a letter dated March 7 2016. The letter is here.

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/response-kerry.jpg

Source: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/john-kerry-does-not-answer-questions-of-mh17-next-of-kin/

Americans Have The Right To Be Stupid -- John Kerry U.S. Secretary of State

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5twSqDZRdiA


Case 3 : The minority view is false and the received view is true. For example, suppose a scholar were to write a book defending the thesis that slavery never happened in the United States. Why should we even tolerate such an outlandish view?

1. Even though the scholar's claims are false, again this forces us to revisit and perhaps rediscover much of the evidence we have documenting the history of slavery. This in turn informs both the way we do history, the way we accept truth claims, and the way we view the present.

2. The falseness of the scholar's claims actually strengthens many of our commonly received views about not just the fact of slavery, but it's legacy also.

- https://www.unz.com/article/americas-cultural-revolution-the-obsession-with-self-esteem/#comment-2294657 Thank you! I hadn't realised that John Kerry had written a letter. Why didn't you post it at the beginning of the thread so everybody could have been convinced by this truth and everybody would know of Russia's guilt in the matter? Of course lots of people have questioned this in the above thread, convincingly too, but no doubt most were unaware that John Kerry wrote a letter that constitutes proof of Ukraine's innocence and Russia's guilt. Also this means that the MSM can be believed and perhaps they were right about Saddam having WMDs too. Thanks again for your commitment to informing people everywhere on the truth.
Balderdash , says: July 31, 2018 at 4:17 pm GMT
@anon

As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.

The facts matter, but not to this writer. The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that 'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated -- again largely unobserved -- back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery" indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made available to the investigation. Not have they requested it.

NoseytheDuke , says: August 1, 2018 at 2:31 am GMT
@Balderdash The facts are as described. The investigatory body has determined that 'Dissident forces' in the Donbass obtained one part of a Buk missile system, for the day, and used it with the result that a commercial aircraft was downed. that unit as traced by Bellingcat entered the Donbass region unobserved drove around including through areas that were nominally under government control , downed MH17 and was evacuated - again largely unobserved - back into Russia. While nobody actually saw the Unit in situ, or firing, Bellingcat has used his social media skills to locate the Russian unit to which he claims the unit was attached and has named Russian personnel who he claims may have been involved. The investigatory body included much of Bellingcat's evidence in their most recent report. They also asked for further corroboration of their theory from knowledgeable sources, presumably in Russia.
A salient (IMO) piece of evidence is a statement made by the US secretary of State, John Kerry, within two days of the incident saying that he "had seen satellite imagery" indicating that the missile was fired by dissident forces. That imagery has never been made available to the investigation. Not have they requested it. One part of a Buk cannot be used independently to bring down a plane flying at high altitude without the other components. This is why it is usually referred to as a Buk system. Bellingcat is just a disinformation project and a pathetic one at that though it's been quite effective against the weak minded.

[Sep 23, 2018] September 21, 2018 at 2:41 pm

Sep 23, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

And in the classic commercial way, it provides a twofer, since the white helmet first gained widespread popularity with the Village People, so it clicks with the whole LGBTQ touchy feely approach to world affairs we're always being told is essential. Real world hard hats tend to be in high-vis, almost painfully bright colours – orange, red, maybe blue.

White? In the Levant, where half or more of the buildings are white to reflect the sun?

Like Like Reply

Mark Chapman September 21, 2018 at 10:41 pm

Those are really bad. But I don't see much to link them to the White Helmets – just one guy with what I guess is their insignia on the back of his shirt, and nobody wearing the famous white helmets. It almost looks like someone deliberately making a fake which is full of holes, to implicate the White Helmets in making fake films. Just playing devil's advocate here. It would be very easy indeed for the White Helmets to disown these videos if they do not gain any traction.
Patient Observer September 22, 2018 at 2:20 pm
IIRC, the Russian government said a number of videos were shot with most being of low quality and would go straight to YouTube. Two were of sufficiently high cinematic quality to be released to Western media outlets.

However, with the recent agreement to stop military action in Idlib, it would seem that there is no longer an opportunity to use the videos as a justification for a Western military attack.

Indeed, the Idlib agreement has removed any pretext for Western attacks for the foreseeable future. That is big. The military phase of the war in Syria seems to be over.

[Sep 19, 2018] Shocking New Evidence Mass Murder of Odessans by Ukrainian Nationalists Was Financed by Poroshenko

May 02, 2018 | nowcurrentnews.com

By News Videos on May 2, 2018

The command "Set fire and go" was given to mercenaries who stood behind the tragic events in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa. Israeli journalist Anna Stefan presented these shocking details in her investigation.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Lgp8MhcuxNM?autoplay=1&modestbranding=1

Subscribe to Vesti News https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8MaD6gQscto_Nq1i49iew?sub_confirmation=1 The command "Set fire and go" was given to mercenaries who stood behind the tragic events

[Sep 19, 2018] The Russian Defense Ministry has presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, the Defense Ministry's spokesman Igor Konashenkov told the media

Sep 19, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 4:39 am

Russia presents audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in MH17 tragedy
September 17, 12:56 UTC+3
The Russian Defense Ministry has presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, the Defense Ministry's spokesman Igor Konashenkov told the media

The Russian Defense Ministry has ascertained that the videos showing the movement of a Buk missile system from Russia to Ukraine, presented by the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) probing the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine, were fabricated, ministry spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov told reporters

The Defense Ministry also presented an audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in the MH17 disaster in 2014, Major General Igor Konashenkov, spokesman for the ministry, told the media

General Konashenkov said the audio recording of a conversation between Ukrainian military servicemen was made back in 2016 in the Odessa Region during the Rubezh-2016 exercise and published in the Ukrainian mass media.

"If so, we'll [a synonym of the verb 'shoot down' – TASS] another Malaysian Boeing," one of the Ukrainian military servicemen said in the conversation

.The "Bloody Pastor" in Kiev replies "Fake!"

Киев назвал "фейком" выводы Минобороны России о сбившей Boeing ракете‍
Ведомости 14:35

Kiev has called the conclusions of the Russian Ministry of Defence concerning the missile that shot down the Boeing a "fake"

Заявление Российской Федерации о якобы украинском следе ракеты, которая сбила МН17 -- это очередной неудачный фейк Кремля для того, чтобы прикрыть свое преступление, которое уже доказано как официальным следствием, так и независимыми экспертными группами.

The statement of the Russian Federation about the alleged Ukrainian origin of the missile that hit the MH17 is another unsuccessful Kremlin fake, made in order to cover up its crime, which has already been proven both by an official investigation and by independent expert groups.

One of the investigating parties being the Ukraine, of course.

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 5:01 am
As a press conference is still underway at the Russian MoD, Sputnik live updates on tht MH17 story here
Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 5:04 am
Latest update:

"The JIT has taken note of the information that has been publicly presented by the authorities of the Russian Federation for the first time today The JIT will meticulously study the materials presented today as soon as the Russian Federation makes the relevant documents available to the JIT as requested in May 2018 and required by UNSC resolution 2166," the statement of the Joint Investigation Team read.

However, one member of the JIT has already made its own conclusion concerning the evidence presented by the Russian MoD, without even finding it necessary to analyze any documents presented by those evil Moskali.

Mark Chapman September 17, 2018 at 11:20 am
And who else would be allowed to get away with that? A necessary suspect, by virtue of the incident having occurred there and having motive, means and opportunity aplenty, nonetheless allowed a seat on the investigation, unrestricted access to the evidence (much of which has by now likely disappeared, never mind the opportunities to doctor it before anyone else saw it) and a veto over the publication of the findings? The dice have been loaded ridiculously in Ukraine's favour, and the wise monkeys still can't come up with a convincing story among themselves. But Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, and it's just so cute, you have to believe it.

When the west finally abandons the Ukraine Project, it is going to have to conclude that Ukraine and Russia were secretly working together the whole time, to trick and defraud and rob western institutions that tried their best to help – there you go, boys; there's your cover story. Far better to be thought a cabbagehead than a co-conspirator.

I still don't like it, and you know why – fragments of the engine and nozzle, never mind one big enough to reveal the entire serial number, should not be in the wreckage. Nothing should have impacted the plane except shrapnel from the warhead, as the missile explodes by proximity fuse without ever touching the plane. Any debris from the missile should have fallen close to where the plane was hit, which was miles away from the crash site. I'm surprised Russia didn't bring that up already when the Ukies were hollering about finding Buk missile parts in the wreckage.

Russia never needed to smuggle in a single launcher to implicate Ukraine – if it had wanted to do that, it could have used a more advanced and longer-range missile to down it as soon as it entered Ukrainian airspace, without ever having to leave Russia.

Jen September 17, 2018 at 4:46 pm
I'm sure the JIT will study the materials so meticulously that this will be the eventual result:

Mark Chapman September 17, 2018 at 5:07 pm
The JIT, led by Ukraine, will study the materials meticulously for any way in the world that they could have been faked or doctored, and then build a case that this is precisely what was done. Russia will once again be taken to task and scolded for lying and trying to frame Ukraine, because the alternative – that Russia was telling the truth all along, in the face of deliberate and determined western efforts to bury the truth and shield Ukraine – is unacceptable.
kirill September 17, 2018 at 1:53 pm
Bellingcrap doctored videos of the alleged Russian Buk system in the Donbass.

Incompetent Ukr forces have a history of shooting down civilian aircraft by accident. MH17 was another victim of their incompetence. Too bad NATzO needs to turn this into "Putler did it" propaganda. I guess NATzO can't take Russia on without dirty tricks. Sore, pathetic losers.

Moscow Exile September 17, 2018 at 12:34 pm
Bum link -AGAIN!

Russia presents audio recording proving Ukraine's complicity in MH17 tragedy

[Sep 18, 2018] Mutual disbelief by Paul Robinson

Western commentary on Russia is often so far removed from reality as to appear deranged.
Notable quotes:
"... producing documents showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in Ukraine in 1986. ..."
"... The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army, which can't actually be ruled out). ..."
"... The Daily Telegraph's ..."
"... The Financial Times's ..."
Sep 18, 2018 | irrussianality.wordpress.com
A few months ago, the Joint Investigation Team which is examining the 2014 shooting down of Flight MH17 asked Russia to provide evidence about the origins of the anti-aircraft missile used in the attack. Today the Russian Ministry of Defence did just that, producing documents showing that the missile in question (identified by the serial numbers on the missile fragments) had been produced in Soviet Russia and then transferred to an air defence unit in Ukraine in 1986.

The implication was that the missile was Ukrainian, and that therefore Ukraine, not Russia or the rebels of the Donetsk People's Republic, must have been responsible for downing MH17 (assuming that the rebels didn't capture the missile from the Ukrainian Army, which can't actually be ruled out).

The immediate reaction of Western journalists was to scoff at the Russians' claim. For instance, The Daily Telegraph's Alec Luhn wrote on Twitter, 'In short, Russia has cited its own documents to claim the missile that downed MH17 was delivered to Ukraine in 1986 and never left.' Quite where Russia would have gotten documents on the matter other than from Russia is a question Luhn ignores, but his insinuation is clear: Russian documents can't be trusted, and so this story isn't worth further investigation. The Financial Times's Max Seddon was equally dismissive. 'How convenient for them to have discovered this now, four years after the fact,' he wrote on Twitter (where the top of his feed continues to show a Tweet saying that 'Russia's team is so bad fans are worried they won't make it out of the World Cup group stage'!). And the Kyiv Post's Christopher Miller showed a picture of a giggling journalist, and remarked 'The face of the person in the crowd at the Russian MOD briefing on MH17 tells you all you need to know about the latest desperate attempt to deflect blame for the disaster.'

Western journalists' rapid dismissal of the Russian documents contrasts with their equally rapid acceptance of documents purporting to be the passport applications of Salisbury poisoning suspects Aleksandr Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov. I have absolutely no idea whether any of these documents are genuine. For all I know, all or none or some of them might be. What concerns me here is what the journalists' reactions tell us about their biases, namely that as a matter of course they don't trust anything coming out of the mouth of Russian officials.

My observations of the Russian media show me that the same is true of Russians, albeit the other way round, i.e. they display an almost total distrust of anything said by Westerners. RT editor Margarita Simonyan, who carried out a recent interview with the Salisbury suspects, expressed the sentiment very clearly on the political talk show 60 Minutes the other day. She didn't have an opinion as to whether Petrov and Boshirov were telling the truth, she said, but what she did know was that Western intelligence agencies had lied about Iraqi WMD and had published a document which named her 27 times as leading an effort to undermine American democracy, something which was completely untrue.

Why she should believe anything the West said, she asked? Reading the Russian press, and watching other TV shows, I get the impression that this attitude is fairly widespread.

... ... ...

[Sep 17, 2018] Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia

Why this information was revealed only now ?
Notable quotes:
"... "we'll f***ing f**k up another Malaysian Boeing". ..."
"... Think your friends would be interested? Share this story! ..."
Sep 17, 2018 | www.rt.com

Published time: 17 Sep, 2018 09:05 Edited time: 17 Sep, 2018 13:20 Get short URL Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia File photo. Dutch experts at the crash site of flight MH17 in 2014. © Aleksey Kudenko / Sputnik The serial numbers found on debris of the Buk missile which downed Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine show it was produced in 1986, the Russian military said. The projectile was owned by Ukraine, they added. There are two serial numbers found on fragments of the missile, which shot down the passenger airliner in June 2014 according to an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands. The numbers were marked on the engine and the nozzle of the missile.

The Russian military on Monday said they had traced them to a missile which had the producer serial number 8868720.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FRTnews%2Fvideos%2F325968421542383%2F&show_text=0&width=860

Speaking to journalists, Gen. Nikolay Parshin showed a document trail of the Buk missile. According to the documents, some of which have been declassified for the presentation, it was produced at a military plant in Dolgoprudny in the Moscow region in 1986.

Serial number on engine and nozzle of the missile.

The missile was shipped from the plant on December 29, 1986 and delivered to military unit 20152 located in what is now Ukraine. It is now called 223rd anti-aircraft defense regiment of the Ukrainian armed forces, the report said. The unit took part in Kiev's crackdown on rebels in eastern Ukraine in June 2014, the general said.

The evidence disproves the accusations by Ukraine and some other parties, which claim that a missile fired by a launcher, secretly delivered from Russia, was responsible for the downing of MH17, the Ministry of Defense report said. All the materials have been sent to the Dutch investigators, the Russian military added.

MIssilye shipment records found in Russia.

The Russian military also challenges video footage used by the UK-based group Bellingcat , which calls itself a citizen journalism organization, to back its allegations about the delivery of the Buk launcher from Russia. The Defense Ministry showed a video clip with some of the footage, highlighting inconsistencies, which it said proved that the footage had been manipulated to place images of the launcher into background which were not in the original.

The Bellingcat investigation was featured in the latest update by Dutch prosecutors involved in the MH17 investigation, prompting the Russian military to study it in detail, they said. The Russian video showed an example of how an Abrams tank can be shown to be carried by a trailer in the streets of Ukraine in the same way.

Analysis of Bellingcat footage by Russian experts.

The third part of the presentation was what the Russian officials called a record of intercepted communications of Ukrainian officials discussing, in 2016, the risk of flying through restricted airspace over Ukraine. Among a barrage of complaints one phrase says unless the restrictions are respected "we'll f***ing f**k up another Malaysian Boeing".

The Russian military say the complaints came from Col. Ruslan Grinchak, who serves in a brigade responsible for radar control of the Ukrainian airspace. His unit tracked the MH17 flight in 2014, so he may have information which is not publicly available about the disaster.

Information on a Col. Ruslan Grinchak shown by the Russian military.

Gen. Igor Konashenkov, who hosted the briefing, said that Ukraine failed to provide radar data from its stations to the Dutch investigators. He also suggested that archive documents from the Ukrainian unit, which received the Buk missile back in 1986, would be of use to the probe, unless Kiev claims that they are no longer available. He stressed rules are in place which mean that such documents should still be stored in Ukraine.

Read more A site of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash Moscow can't accept 'unfounded conclusions' on MH17 downing – Russia's UN envoy

The Russian military said they had no evidence to disprove a scenario, involving the Ukrainian rebels capturing the missile from the Ukrainian army, but pointed out that Ukrainian officials publicly denied anything like this had ever happened.

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling in the rebel-held part of the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15 crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia was blamed by Western media in the first days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.

The Joint Investigation Team, which is lead by the Netherlands, includes Ukraine, but not Russia. Moscow believes that the investigation is biased, failing to obtain all necessary evidence from Ukraine and relying on questionable sources while ignoring evidence provided by Russia, which doesn't fit the theory favored by Kiev.

Think your friends would be interested? Share this story!

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[Sep 16, 2018] Mainstream Media Finally Admits Syrian Conflict Is US-Russia Proxy War

Notable quotes:
"... In regards to the current iteration of the Gas-for-Eurocrats scam- Qatar has a 100-year plan (The Oil Ministry's 100-year plan, not the Islamists' 100-year plan) , and it doesn't rely on a pipeline to Europe, but successfully implementing that plan does depend on continued sanctions against further Iranian gas development. ..."
"... shades of the Spanish civil war ..."
"... Western media provides humanitarian cover for the U.S. and NATO to fuel a brutal civil war ..."
"... So very true! I am sick to death of the fucking Humanitarian cover the media always throws over US war making. Libya was a prime example, they went in to bomb all hell out of Libya on a lie, a lie that the army was about to massacre thousands of people. That has no been shown totally false. Anyone remember Kovovo? Same shit. Bombing for fake humanitarian reasons. ..."
Oct 17, 2015 | Zero Hedge

Submitted by Nick Bernabe via TheAntiMedia.org,

The Syrian civil war rages on, displacing as many as 11 million people and killing nearly 300,000 as the conflict reaches into its fifth year. Syria, a longtime ally of Russia, has been receiving material support from the Eastern giant since the 1940s. As Anti-Media reported last month,

"Russia's support for Syria dates back to 1946, when Russia helped consolidate Syria's independence. The two countries mutually came to a diplomatic and military agreement in the form of a non-aggression pact, which was enacted on April 20, 1950. In this pact, Russia promised support to the newly-created Syria by helping to develop its military and by providing tactical support. Essentially, Russia and Syria have been cooperating for decades both militarily and economically, with Russia maintaining a naval base on the Syrian Mediterranean."

Meanwhile, the United States also has its own designs on the region. In 2013, President Obama, along with John Kerry, attempted to stir up enough public support for a direct regime change in Syria, tugging at the American public's freedom-spreading, democracy-loving heart strings. This attempt at a public overthrow of the Syrian government failed, with Americans responding with the massive #NoWarWithSyria protest movement. However, the drive for regime change didn't end just because the government stopped talking about it. The CIA continued to arm basically any group willing to fight against the Assad government. The Pentagon also tried (but failed), to manufacture an American-allied army out of so-called moderate Syrian rebels at the cost of $500 million - who, on paper would oppose ISIS, but in reality work to oust Assad.

Russia, who has been a Syrian ally for decades, has remained steadfast in its support of the Assad regime - openly supplying weapons, aircraft, tanks, intelligence, and human resources in the form of military advisers. Russia also operates a naval base on Syria's Mediterranean shores.

By any measure, this is a textbook proxy war between military powers vying to maintain their own economic interests in the Middle East. However, five years later, it seems the corporate media is finally "realizing" this shadow war for what it is. Over the weekend, The Washington Post ran an article titled, "Did U.S. weapons supplied to Syrian rebels draw Russia into the conflict?" The article goes on to state:

"American antitank missiles supplied to Syrian rebels are playing an unexpectedly prominent role in shaping the Syrian battlefield, giving the conflict the semblance of a proxy war between the United States and Russia, despite President Obama's express desire to avoid one."

Then, on Monday, The New York Times published a piece titled "U.S. Weaponry Is Turning Syria Into a Proxy War With Russia." The article admits that Syrian rebels are receiving abundant amounts of arms from the CIA, which are being used to fight the Russian-backed advance of Assad's troops as he tries to take back Syria from the various rebel, Islamist, and terror groups that have overtaken much of countryside.

Understanding that the U.S. public has been war-weary since the Iraq War debacle, Obama was forced to change his rhetoric from regime change in Syria to fighting terrorism in the form of ISIS. The ample fear-mongering provided by ISIS brutes gave Obama the public support he needed to renew America's seemingly permanent war in Iraq while giving him a back-door into Syria. The U.S. is currently bombing both countries, joined by a coalition of 62 partners, with Russia now officially throwing its hat into the bombing bonanza ring.

What should be clear is that the Unites States' priority in the region is not to defeat ISIS, but instead to overthrow Assad. Clever rhetoric disguises America's covert intentions, but the actions - and subsequent paper trail - paint a very clear picture of what is truly happening in Syria. WikiLeaks gives us some insight into the West's designs on Syria, providing a window into the longtime campaign to oust Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad. A new book that analyzes diplomatic cables leaked by Chelsea Manning, The WikiLeaks Files: The World According to U.S. Empire, reveals the U.S. had a longstanding regime change policy in Syria that dates back long before the 2011 Arab Spring uprising that rocked the Middle East.

"A December 13, 2006 cable, 'Influencing the SARG [Syrian government] in the End of 2006,' indicates that, as far back as 2006 – five years before Arab Spring protests in Syria – destabilizing the Syrian government was a central motivation of U.S. policy. The author of the cable was William Roebuck, at the time chargé d'affaires at the U.S. embassy in Damascus. The cable outlines strategies for destabilizing the Syrian government. In his summary of the cable, Roebuck wrote:

'We believe Bashar's weaknesses are in how he chooses to react to looming issues, both perceived and real, such as the conflict between economic reform steps (however limited) and entrenched, corrupt forces, the Kurdish question, and the potential threat to the regime from the increasing presence of transiting Islamist extremists. This cable summarizes our assessment of these vulnerabilities and suggests that there may be actions, statements, and signals that the USG can send that will improve the likelihood of such opportunities arising.'"

These cables reflect an even older plan, which was detailed by Dan Sanchez at AntiWar.com:

"A veritable 'carpe chaos' manifesto was written in 1996 for a Washington think tank by David Wurmser, an Israel-first neocon (but I repeat myself) who would later play a key role in the Bush administration's drive to the Iraq War: advising Dick Cheney in the Vice President's Office, assisting John Bolton at the State Department, and fabricating fanciful 'connections' between Iraq and Al Qaeda at the Department of Defense.

In 'Coping with Crumbling States: A Western and Israeli Balance of Power Strategy for the Levant,' Wurmser made a case for 'limiting and expediting the chaotic collapse' of the Baathist governments in Iraq and Syria."

Declassified documents from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) suggest that ISIS is simply a convenient - and dare we say welcome - side effect of the West's destabilization agenda in Syria and Iraq.

proxy war

View the entire DIA document on Syria and ISIS on Judicial Watch.

Sanchez continued to describe this plan:

"Then, after the 2011 'Arab Spring' of popular uprisings reached Syria, 'The Redirection' went into overdrive. The US-led regional coalition (Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.) has been strenuously trying to overthrow the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad since at least 2012 by heavily sponsoring an insurgency led by jihadists including Al Qaeda and ISIS."

The Wurmser plan seems to be materializing before our eyes in Syria.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E

What is hidden beneath all of this information is why the United States wants Assad ousted from power so badly. The most obvious excuse was his open abuse of human rights. And while this was the exact story-line given to the U.S. public from our "friends" in the media, the rhetoric comes off as empty at best, considering the U.S. actively supported Saudi Arabia's brutal crackdown of Arab Spring protesters. We learned during the Arab Spring that our Gulf State allies were allowed to kill as many pro-democracy protesters as they wanted (hell, we even supplied them with the weapons to do it), while any non-allies were not. Muammar Gaddafi learned this the hard way. Meanwhile, Ali Mohammed al-Nimr, a Saudi national, is awaiting execution by crucifixion for the crime of protesting the Saudi government during the Arab Spring. But crucifying a guy for protesting is fine with the United States because Saudi Arabia is one of our closest allies in the region. Repression is alright as long as it's our guys doing it, right?

With the mythical human rights argument out of the way, the following question emerges: What is the true agenda causing the U.S.-Russia proxy war in Syria? In short, it is resources, power, and hegemony.

While nearly every war the U.S. involves itself in is sold as a humanitarian effort to either stop terrorism or spread democracy, studies show that countries with resources such as fossil fuels are over 100 times more likely to see foreign involvement in their internal conflicts. America is often the foreign force that arms and finances different sides of these conflicts. Coincidentally, in Syria, so is Russia.

While this geopolitical scenario is rather complex, it makes perfect sense. The U.S. has been trying to contain Russia since World War II, and those policies of containment are still in effect today. America enjoys its role as the only remaining superpower and has an interest in maintaining that hegemony. To make things perfectly clear, this is the main driver behind the Syrian Civil War.

Russia has somewhat of a monopoly over the gas supplies needed for Europe's economy to operate. This gives Russia a semi-permanent economic base to fund its foreign policy agenda and maintain its own geopolitical strategy. The U.S. and its NATO allies want to end that monopoly, but in order to accomplish that, a pipeline must be built from the Sunni Gulf states, starting in Qatar, going through Jordan and Syria, and making its way into Turkey. From Turkey, the gas supplies will be distributed into Europe, effectively undermining Russia's current arrangement with the European Union and placing its economy in a state of uncertainty. This would eventually lead to a flight of investment away from Russia and subsequently permanently damage what's left of Russia's resource-dependent economy. This explains Russia's steadfast support for the Assad government. As The Guardian documented back in 2013:

"Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar and Turkey that run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets – albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad's rationale was 'to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas.'"

Note the purple line which traces the proposed Qatar-Turkey natural gas pipeline and note that all of the countries highlighted in red are part of a new coalition hastily put together after Turkey finally (in exchange for NATO's acquiescence on Erdogan's politically-motivated war with the PKK) agreed to allow the US to fly combat missions against ISIS targets from Incirlik. Now note which country along the purple line is not highlighted in red. That's because Bashar al-Assad didn't support the pipeline and now we're seeing what happens when you're a Mid-East strongman and you decide not to support something the US and Saudi Arabia want to get done. (Map: ZeroHedge.com)

Note the purple line which traces the proposed Qatar-Turkey natural gas pipeline and note that all of the countries highlighted in red are part of a new coalition hastily put together after Turkey finally (in exchange for NATO's acquiescence on Erdogan's politically-motivated war with the PKK) agreed to allow the US to fly combat missions against ISIS targets from Incirlik. Now note which country along the purple line is not highlighted in red. That's because Bashar al-Assad didn't support the pipeline and now we're seeing what happens when you're a Mid-East strongman and you decide not to support something the US and Saudi Arabia want to get done. (Map: ZeroHedge.com)

Mnar Muhawesh of Mint Press News describes these pipeline plays in her article, "Migrant Crisis & Syria War Fueled By Competing Gas Pipelines":

"Knowing Syria was a critical piece in its energy strategy, Turkey attempted to persuade Syrian President Bashar Assad to reform this Iranian pipeline and to work with the proposed Qatar-Turkey pipeline, which would ultimately satisfy Turkey and the Gulf Arab nations' quest for dominance over gas supplies, who are the United State's allies. But after Assad refused Turkey's proposal, Turkey and its allies became the major architects of Syria's civil war."

It's unfortunate that it took the corporate media all these years to "discover" that the United States and Russia are fighting a geopolitical proxy war in Syria. It remains to be seen how many more years and lost lives it will take for them to also "discover" that this proxy war is being fought over resources and power. It's a sad state of affairs when the Western media provides humanitarian cover for the U.S. and NATO to fuel a brutal civil war - which has taken the lives of nearly 300,000 people - simply to create economic advantages for NATO states and allies while undermining stability in the Middle East - creating the greatest humanitarian catastrophe since World War II. And as millions of refugees continue to pour out of Syria into Europe and abroad, the NATO-dominated public of the E.U. and U.S. remain largely ignorant to the fact their own governments helped create the refugee crisis they so abhor.

JustObserving

The Nobel Prize Winner's war in Syria has caused 300,000 deaths and created more than 4 million refugees and at least 7 million displaced internally. Hardly any of the US or EU public is aware of that thanks to the free and fair media of the West

A recently released classified document obtained by WikiLeaks establishes that active US planning for regime-change predated the outbreak of the Syrian civil war by at least five years. The secret report from the head of the US Embassy in Damascus outlined "vulnerabilities" of the Syrian government that Washington could exploit. At the top of the list were fomenting "Sunni fears of Iranian influence" to cause sectarian conflict and taking advantage of "the presence of transiting Islamist extremists."

Given that the document was written in 2006, at the height of Iraq's sectarian carnage caused by the US invasion and Washington's divide-and-rule tactics, these proposals were made with full awareness that they would provoke a bloodbath. Nearly a decade later, the bitter fruits of this policy include the deaths of some 300,000 Syrians, with another 4 million driven from the country and 7 million more internally displaced.

While cynically exploiting the suffering of the Syrian people to justify an escalation of US militarism, Washington is not about to let Russia derail its drive to impose its hegemony over the oil-rich Middle East and the entire planet.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/10/08/pers-o08.html

hedgeless_horseman

Like all wars, this one will end in tears for most.

How much money has the Clinton Foundation received from Middle Eastern donors?

How much in bribes do our "elected representatives" receive each election from defense contractors?

It is simple, but hard.

Sortition.

Stops the bribery.

Stops the wars.

ZerOhead

ALL wars are BANKER wars.

Remember... Friends don't let friends believe in the fake East vs. West dialectic that is being spun by the MSM whores. The bankers are using it to forward their plans for their global NWO government and financial system.

knukles

"Proxy"; a delicate understatement destined for the annals of Political Correct nonsense.
No, it's not a real war... It's a proxy, an imitation, a vote by somebody else that I abrogated because I just can't make it, a phantom chimera, surreal nachtmare.
So delicately put.

Ask the dead, maimed, frightened, cold, hungry and damaged if thy think it makes it any more tolerable.

manofthenorth

I know this is an old horse but apt;

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

Gen. S. Butler USMC

Son of Loki

No one would be foolish enough to choose war over peace--in peace sons bury their fathers, but in war fathers bury their sons.

Freddie

The USA is controlled by evil shitbags who promote wars for evil scum contractors like the Crown-Krinsky crime family. Friends of Meyer Lansky, McCain, LBJ, OBama and the rest of the evil shit who get innocent people murdered.

http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/04/crown-crime-family-of-chicago.html

Scum like McCain and Lindsay Graham saying they support the troops and idiots eat those lies up.

Scum puppets like the White Hut and all of Congress.

Innocent people murdered during these endless bankster wars - Opium Wars in China 1839 with wonderful British tribal banksters murdering Chinese, US Civil War 1861, endless European wars before that, WW1 banksters pushed royalty puppets owned by the Red Shield to war, WW2 with a US London Red Sheild Rockefeller Hitler and the Red Shild Bolsheviks, Korean War, LBJ's narco Vietnam and Crown-Krinsky's F-111 which was a criminal fraud LBJ was involved in, Bushes and Obola Clinton middle east wars and Clinton/UN narco pipeline in the Balkans.

Tens of millions of innocent people murdered not for democracy or the American way of life but looting countries, narco trillions, weapons and contractor contracts and endless shit.

Mass murder for a profit.

Ignatius

A proxy war, I might add, in which my home country of the USA is completely in the wrong.

Now let us all rise for the playing of our National Anthem.

o r c k

The U.S. Press is complicit in the deaths of 300,000 human beings. A few hours of investigative reporting would've shed a clear light on this -unless the Press already knew and were just following "orders". (much more likely) Don't tell me that thousands of "reporters" in America go to bed at night with a clean conscience. And with the words "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity" dancing behind their closed eyelids. I pity them.

bigkahuna

Don't waste your pity on the MSM, they have never - nor do they now, care.

divedivedive

I'm an old man and I guess I am a little naive. I always thought the only reason the US was in the ME was to assure the flow of crude. But with the drop in crude prices, and the US fraking, why is the ME so important to the US today ?

Who was that masked man

Money. War can be extremely lucrative for those with the "right" connections.

maxwellsdemon

It's really about Israel controlling Lebanon by eliminating the Syrian connection between Iran and Hezbollah. That's why neocon= Israeli firste David Wurmser thought up this strategy to displace, wound, and kill millions of the non Chosen.

datura

Why is ME so important? Because it lies next to Russia and China, the two rising superpowers, which the USA wants to "contain" and subdue. It is not just Syria. The USA has been sending ISIS to China to incite their muslims and the same with Russia. In other words, the USA has embarked on the same path as once Hitler or Napoleon - the world domination. Russia and China are obstacles to that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KkNAQIuGZY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

Thick Willy

He explained it in this article in plain terms. It's about denying Russia's oil and gas revenue from Europe to cripple them and remove them as an obstacle. Greater Israel, the ethnic cleansing of whites in Europe thru mass immigration, etc. are all just bonuses.

Who was that masked man

War is when your government tells you who the enemy is. Revolution is when the people finaly realize who the real enemy is.

Blankone

It was only a proxy war created by the US/Zionist. Syria was prosperous and peaceful until the proxy war was unleashed upon them.

Syria did not invade or attack other countries, others were sent to Syria to kill.

There is no shared blame with Russia or Syria. All the blame falls upon those who sent their proxies to kill.

HowdyDoody

The US has rejected a Russian proposal to cooperate over the rescue of pilots shot down in Syria. Oh well, tough shit for the US when the legimate government of Syria decides it has had enough of foreign powers invading its airspace

Winston Churchill

The neocons are still in shock over the Caspian sea missile launch. Years of planning and moving eastward to threaten Russia wrecked by a ball from left field.
If they get their(manic) composure back, some idiot is going to fire on those Russian planes. I can feel it in my water. They will do anything to avoid the day of reckoning that move foreshadowed. I think that stench is fear.

Freddie

Those Kalibr-NK LACMs fired from small Russian ships in the Caspian did shock them. They had to lie that 4 crashed to try to make the world think Russian missiles were not that good. It was stunning technology.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article189021.html

The USA is supposedly sending F-22's from Hawaii to Turkey. I wonder why they hide these hangar queens in Hawaii?

I would bet they do not take to the sky because the Russians will expose stealth as a total fraud that was perpetrated on US taxpayers.

Pierre Sprey - Stealth is a scam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om5jis0dtkY

Sprey worked with Colonel Boyd and Colonel Riccioni. The three worked on the F-15, F-16 and A-10.

F-22 cost $350 million.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAq6oMG7DoE

Sprey talking about designing the A-10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l73IyO1Qdqo

datura

not this time. This time it is much more serious. This time it is a clash of civilizations, which zionists cannot really control. The zionist empire is now already too weak and other civilizations are taking stand for themselves. You could say that this is a beginning of a global revolution against the colonial rule. People in the world are too tired of the rule of anglo-zionists. Remember that zionists could only rule, while they had their British Empire. First it was the real British Empire, now the British Empire is the USA. But it is still the same empire. If this empire falls down, after all these centuries, zionists will loose their foothold. Or, in the worst case, we may all die in the process. In any case zionists are now playing a loosing war. All empires come to an end. This empire lasted some centuries, but like the Roman Empire, it is now collapsing, because it has become too chaotic, corrupt and complicated. Remember that this empire never really cntrolled the entire world (which is impossible!). There were always true (non-zionist) opponents. One such opponent was historicaly the Russian Empire. That is why they had to kill the tzar and his family and plant communism there. However, Russia now has its tzar back:-)

Russia: "Representatives of all four parliamentary parties have prepared a bill that bans municipal and regional lawmakers from keeping assets in foreign banks or own securities issued by foreign companies, a popular business daily reports. The authors of the draft claim that if it is adopted it would complete on all levels the so called 'Nationalization of Elites' – a series of legislative steps that Vladimir Putin suggested in 2012 and that were implemented with the 2013 law that bans senior Russian officials from holding bank accounts abroad or owning foreign-issued shares and bonds. The restriction also extends to spouses and underage children."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMTsQIATbIU

knukles

Y'all realize do you not, that GazProm just put RFP's out for the construction of NordStream2, from Russia to Germany bypassing guess who?
"The" Ukraine!

For some reason I'm getting a feeling that the US has no allies, anymore.

Thick Willy

Wolfowitz doctrine to prevent the emergence of another global power vying for regional hegemony. It's pretty clear.

SillySalesmanQuestion

Our Congrescritter's have abdicated their responsibilities by letting Obama and the Neo-Cons wage war without their approval. It is technically illegal by law, but, they have let the administration get away with this bullshit since 2014 when we bombed Lybia.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/obama-congress-and-war-po...

o r c k

Our entire Gov. knew the truth and kept quiet. As did the "press"--making them all complicit in war crimes and crimes against humanity. Will ANY of them be held to account? Ask George Jr.

The Indelicate Genius

Russia and Iran are present in Syria fighting mostly foreign mercenaries at the invitation of the legal government of Syria - a UN member.

What's the legal or moral basis for US presence, or its support of takfiri/salafist mercenaries?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-fake-war-against-the-islamic-state-i...
https://theintercept.com/2014/09/28/u-s-officials-invented-terror-group-...

Main_Sequence

What's the legal or moral basis for US presence, or its support of takfiri/salafist mercenaries?

That's the perfect question that nobody seems to ask. The elephant in the room.

Urban Redneck

The overly simplistic dueling pipeline pissing match meme is undercut by the same Guardian article.

The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline plan was a "direct slap in the face" to Qatar's plans. No wonder Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan, in a failed attempt to bribe Russia to switch sides, told President Vladmir Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports", according to diplomatic sources. When Putin refused, the Prince vowed military action.

As far as KSA is concerned the alleged raison d'etre is a mere pawn to be sacrificed...

In regards to the current iteration of the Gas-for-Eurocrats scam- Qatar has a 100-year plan (The Oil Ministry's 100-year plan, not the Islamists' 100-year plan) , and it doesn't rely on a pipeline to Europe, but successfully implementing that plan does depend on continued sanctions against further Iranian gas development.

sam i am

new Urban Redneck

Thank you.

Gas pipe has nothig to do with the

reasons why Russia supports Syria and wants to restore peace in the region. According to a report leaked through Russian and Lebanese sources and reported by the London Telegraph, Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan told Russian President Vladimir Putin the Arab kingdom has control over the Chechen jihadists, who have been unleashing terrorist bombings in Russia and have been threatening the Olympics scheduled to begin in Sochi, Russia, on Feb. 6.
Putin reportedly responded, "We know that you have supported the Chechen terrorist groups for a decade. And that support, which you have frankly talked about just now, is completely incompatible with the common objectives of fighting global terrorism."

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/saudi-terror-to-threaten-olympics/

Russians never forget all those victims of the Saudies' terror, and never forgive terrorists. saudies are as good as gone now. Their gas and oil will help them to burn in hell.

Oldrepublic

shades of the Spanish civil war

Jack Burton

"Western media provides humanitarian cover for the U.S. and NATO to fuel a brutal civil war"

So very true! I am sick to death of the fucking Humanitarian cover the media always throws over US war making. Libya was a prime example, they went in to bomb all hell out of Libya on a lie, a lie that the army was about to massacre thousands of people. That has no been shown totally false. Anyone remember Kovovo? Same shit. Bombing for fake humanitarian reasons.

This is all about fake moral superiority. Sorry, but Obama, Bush and the others, they have NO Moral superiority.

Collapsed_Elastic_Pants

Goddammitt, we know that. Now what?

rejected

Is this from the same group that hates Columbus? This story makes about as much sense as that story did.

What we have is a bully aggressor that believes it is exceptional and doesn't have to bother with international law or even its own laws annihilating smaller defenseless regimes that don't suit their fancy. Russia has simply stood off to one side constantly harping on this international lawlessness until the bullies descended upon a ally nation of theirs. Even then they stayed out of it militarily until they were faced with two choices. 1) Abandon their Mediterranean base or 2) help their ally. Exact same reason they reunited Crimea. The Ukrainians weren't/aren't mature enough to know they were being hoodwinked by the West and Russia was not going to lose its Navel base because of a bunch of quarreling twits thinking the West was about to shower them with gifts and money.

Now this same bully is throwing a tantrum because it is being outwitted at every turn and wants to show it's still the big boy by trying to bully another nation it thinks might back down over a few rocks some call islands thus setting themselves up for another defeat.

This is what happens when banks own and spooks run a country. Yep,,, it's as simple as that... no complicated plots, no shrewd plans.

Just plain old stupid arrogance.

maxwellsdemon

Your right to call the West a bully, though it is of course run by the Chosen. But bullies don't want to fight, only intimidate, because thieir morals are weak and they are held together by intimidation. If the Chosen get the West into a real war, you can be sure that a revolution will occur against them. Perhaps that is the plan and they might all end up on some island together loving each other forever. The Rabbis can argue that it's God's choice. Or they can all end up in fractious, dangerous Zionist Occupied Palestine. Once isolated there, the flow of weapons and sucor will dry up and then they will have to make friends with the natives.

Khrushchev tried to bully the US back in 1962 but JFK and the nation was OK with going to war (perhaps now that wouldn't be the case in Russia put missiles there, since the US has nukes on the border with Russia). Khrushchev backed down because the USSR had a corrupt, rotten core. Then the Jews left the USSR, leaving only the nationalists and Russia recovered. Now the US has the Jews running it and has become corrupt and rotten to the core. This time, the US is backing down in Syria and will soon have to back down in the China sea

outlaw.guru

This article seems to equate Russia and US to some extent as both fighting for control for pipelines. However first of all US and allies could have pacified Iraq and build a pipeline directly to Turkey (just look at the map). That would even allow them to control Iranian sales if there were any. However they chose to game of winner takes all and destabilized Syria, a Russian ally. I can't see this as anything less than a defense of national interests for Russia.

Yen Cross

It's astonishing how shielded people are from actual facts. I was over in Oceania for 3 days, and when I returned , the whole news cycle was about the election of a new "Figure Puppet".

People, please travel, and explore other cultures, and ideas.

I'm told your parents instill CORE values by the age of 4-5 , then guide you to adulthood.

jcdenton

This is much more than just a mere proxy war between the U.S. and Russia. This is a provocation via NATO. A cold war dinosaur that has no more practical use since 1990. It should have been dissolved with the Warsaw Pact. Watch this guy from London squirm when presented evidence and facts ..

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/10/14/the-debate-with-mike-harris-turk...

I would put to the guy from London, what evidence do you have that Assad is a rogue govt. responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Syrian citizens. There is no evidence. The guy from London is a Mossad tool ..

BTW, I have had personal conversions with Mike Harris ..

https://app.box.com/s/hfgvcqg7gqh7i27at6sv53ywu87lwarp

Surveyor4Pres

WTFU people -

1. Obama / Soros / Globalists want to establish a Muslim Caliphate in the Middle East.

2. To accomplish this, they need ISIS to occupy and control Syria.

3. Soros wants this to stick a thorn in Putin's eye. Putin is the only national leader to oppose the globalization and open borders paradigm of the Fabian Socialist left.
... ... ...

Sparehead

Not to disagree with the main points made here, but fuck Wesley Clark. You can't believe a word he says. The Clintons invented him (as a high ranking general) and he's a total puppet.

[Sep 16, 2018] US goal was to take Ukraine into the future that it deserves. Now with grivna devaluation of over 300% we see what they meant

Notable quotes
... "What we have is a desperate corporate media, dutifully parroting the nonsense from the US State Department, and investing virtually nothing in on-the-ground investigative reporting. But real evidence? We are in very, VERY short supply of that."
... From article: He [Clegg] also argued that the country should lose the right to host the 2018 World Cup after Russian troops allegedly downed the civilian airliner Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine last July. Well, there's evidence in itself. Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. (The burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies). He wants to punish before the publication o the report. It's like a mediaeval witch-hunt. The law of the jungle seems to be Clegg's guiding principle. No surprise he's been banned.
..."I can only assume it is as badge of honour if you buy into all the dimwitted propaganda being published by the western corporate media -- who seem to have a daily axe to grind against the Russian state, but who say nothing about the warmongering actions of the US. I imagine I would have the same opinion of you if I was to uncritically swallow such toxic rubbish."
..."The only way to effectively block people from other regions (blanket censor them, in other words) would be to positively identify the source. All that you would likely achieve is blocking actual individual commentators and letting through the government astroturfers.
Why you would want to resort to such tactics is worth asking. The 'Western side' may be losing the propaganda war with Russia because our lies are bigger and harder to sell -- rather than Pooty-poot being cleverer. Repeated debunked claims in our media are also going to be far more damaging than anything similar in Russia. The problem doesn't lie with those you are asserting to be 'trolls' that are disputing the reporting -- the problem lies with the reporting.
Notable quotes:
"... But it's very suspect when you say things like "Putin's created a criminal war in East Ukraine" when it was Kiev which started the violence in reaction to the Russian Ukrainians voting for Federalization in response to the coup in Kiev. It means that everything else you write has to be treated as suspect. ..."
"... alpamysh ... you've merely regurgitated the standard NeoCon list of justifications for why a democratically-elected leader needed to be overthrown ..."
"... The article isn't worth the headline really. The new cold war is on and obviously they'll be barring each other. ..."
"... On the other hand the EU has also put an entry ban on leading Russian politicians, among which are the chairman of the Federation council, politicians from the state Duma and also close advisors to the Russian president Vladimir Putin. It is not anticipated that either side will lift the entry bans in the near future. (Excerpt and rough translation from German) ..."
"... "In December, Nuland reminded Ukrainian business leaders that, to help Ukraine achieve "its European aspirations, we have invested more than $5 billion." She said the U.S. goal was to take "Ukraine into the future that it deserves," by which she meant into the West's orbit and away from Russia's. ..."
"... But President Yanukovych rejected a European Union plan that would have imposed harsh austerity on the already impoverished Ukraine. He accepted a more generous $15 billion loan from Russia, which also has propped up Ukraine's economy with discounted natural gas. Yanukovych's decision sparked anti-Russian street protests in Kiev, located in the country's western and more pro-European region. ..."
"... By late January, Nuland was discussing with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt who should be allowed in the new government. ..."
"... "Yats is the guy," Nuland said in a phone call to Pyatt that was intercepted and posted online. "He's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the guy you know." By "Yats," Nuland was referring to Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who had served as head of the central bank, foreign minister and economic minister - and who was committed to harsh austerity. ..."
"... Well, there's evidence in itself. Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. (The burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies). He wants to punish before the publication o the report. It's like a mediaeval witch-hunt. The law of the jungle seems to be Clegg's guiding principle. No surprise he's been banned. ..."
"... "Putin wants sanctions" ... what a bunch of silly conjecture. As for "Putin style rule" and "Tzar" .. you presumably know that Russia held democratic elections which Putin won. ..."
"... let me guess, The list probably contains politicians whose real loyalty maybe is with the US? Judge from the 2 names mentioned, Malcolm Riffkind is Co-Vice Chair of the Global Panel Foundation – America – with Dr. Dov S. Zakheim, the former U.S Under-Secretary of Defense and Comptroller of the Armed Forces. ..."
"... your constant anti-Russia/Putin comments mark you as a shill/troll ..."
"... What we have is a desperate corporate media, dutifully parroting the nonsense from the US State Department, and investing virtually nothing in on-the-ground investigative reporting. But real evidence? We are in very, VERY short supply of that. ..."
"... I can only assume it is as badge of honour if you buy into all the dimwitted propaganda being published by the western corporate media - ..."
"... We're the global overlords, and so second-rate nations aren't allowed to reciprocate our petulant actions. When they do so it causes some people to question the assumed status of the 'Western' hegemony (and our claimed system of morally superior 'values'). We can't allow that sort of thing, Popeyes. ..."
"... The Guardian has a clear pro-EU/USA position on the new cold war against Russia. ..."
"... The 'Western side' may be losing the propaganda war with Russia because our lies are bigger and harder to sell -- rather than Pooty-poot being cleverer. ..."
"... The problem doesn't lie with those you are asserting to be 'trolls' that are disputing the reporting -- the problem lies with the reporting. ..."
May 31, 2015 | The Guardian

JordanFromLondon -> Havingalavrov 31 May 2015 12:26

"Look at the Moscow apartment bombings"... look at any number of CIA false flag operations. As for "most of the national T.V is Putin press." ... Murdoch has a controlling interest in printed press and a large share of TV news in Australia and the UK. Maybe you are one of the CIA-employed agitators against Russia, or maybe you have a chip on your shoulder about a failed relationship with a Russia bride. I can't be sure from your comments.

But it's very suspect when you say things like "Putin's created a criminal war in East Ukraine" when it was Kiev which started the violence in reaction to the Russian Ukrainians voting for Federalization in response to the coup in Kiev. It means that everything else you write has to be treated as suspect.

Huo Fu Yan 31 May 2015 12:24

I don't see a big issue with that list. If some people from that list travel anywhere, it will be considered wasting tax payer money anyways. They aren't even embraced by a majority in their own countries, some of them belonging to totally irrelevant weird initiative, shouting and crying about this and that.

For others on that list, being linked to military organisations, the should be banned naturally. As for vacation, I don't think Russia was on those guys list either

JordanFromLondon -> alpamysh 31 May 2015 12:14

alpamysh ... you've merely regurgitated the standard NeoCon list of justifications for why a democratically-elected leader needed to be overthrown (e.g. Egypt's Morsi). If we take your "Hitler was elected" argument, we can apply that one to any election outcome. If you won your high school "class monitor" election ... we'll Hitler won an election too. It's nothing more than a lazy smear by association. If we take your "rigs the right of the opposition" argument, well there goes Israel's claims to democracy. They arrest/ban viable Arab opposition figures to prevent them standing in elections. Also, we have to eliminate Ukraine, who have assassinated about 12 of Yanukovich's inner circle since the coup.

uzzername 31 May 2015 12:09

The article isn't worth the headline really. The new cold war is on and obviously they'll be barring each other.

Russia, along with the rest of BRICS is an emerging economy. While in the developed economies big corporations scramble for every penny they rip off off the consumers, the BRICS are a goldmine for adventurous capitalists as you can score quite a bit of dope in one scoop if you invest enough in it.

That's why some of them suits on the list are pissed off. Obvs not because their summer holiday in Siberia has gone into smithereens.

umweltAT2100 31 May 2015 12:04

According to a report in ARD (German state media) the entry ban is a reaction / retaliation in response to the entry ban imposed on Russians in connection with the Crimea annexation. Approximately 200 people are on the Russian black list. The largest number are from the USA, with the Republican John McCain declared "persona non grata", followed by Canadian politicians.

On the other hand the EU has also put an entry ban on leading Russian politicians, among which are the chairman of the Federation council, politicians from the state Duma and also close advisors to the Russian president Vladimir Putin. It is not anticipated that either side will lift the entry bans in the near future. (Excerpt and rough translation from German)

Russian entry ban for dozens of politicians – Moscow's black list is out. (Hermann Krause, ARD Radio studio, Moscow, 30.05.2015)

Russische Einreiseverbote für Dutzende Politiker Moskaus "schwarze Liste" ist raus. Von Hermann Krause, ARD-Hörfunkstudio Moskau, 30.05.2015

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/russland-einreiseverbot-103.html

Danish5666 -> dralion 31 May 2015 12:03

Victoria Nuland and the neocons to be more precise,

"In December, Nuland reminded Ukrainian business leaders that, to help Ukraine achieve "its European aspirations, we have invested more than $5 billion." She said the U.S. goal was to take "Ukraine into the future that it deserves," by which she meant into the West's orbit and away from Russia's.

But President Yanukovych rejected a European Union plan that would have imposed harsh austerity on the already impoverished Ukraine. He accepted a more generous $15 billion loan from Russia, which also has propped up Ukraine's economy with discounted natural gas. Yanukovych's decision sparked anti-Russian street protests in Kiev, located in the country's western and more pro-European region.

Nuland was soon at work planning for "regime change," encouraging disruptive street protests by personally passing out cookies to the anti-government demonstrators. She didn't seem to notice or mind that the protesters in Kiev's Maidan square had hoisted a large banner honoring Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian nationalist who collaborated with the German Nazis during World War II and whose militias participated in atrocities against Jews and Poles.

By late January, Nuland was discussing with U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt who should be allowed in the new government.

"Yats is the guy," Nuland said in a phone call to Pyatt that was intercepted and posted online. "He's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the guy you know." By "Yats," Nuland was referring to Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who had served as head of the central bank, foreign minister and economic minister - and who was committed to harsh austerity.

As Assistant Secretary Nuland and Sen. McCain cheered the demonstrators on, the street protests turned violent. Police clashed with neo-Nazi bands, the ideological descendants of Bandera's anti-Russian Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazi SS during World War II.

With the crisis escalating and scores of people killed in the street fighting, Yanukovych agreed to a E.U.-brokered deal that called for moving up scheduled elections and having the police stand down. The neo-Nazi storm troopers then seized the opening to occupy government buildings and force Yanukovych and many of his aides to flee for their lives."
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/02/what-neocons-want-from-ukraine-crisis/

JordanFromLondon -> alpamysh 31 May 2015 11:53

What proof do you have that the Russian elections were phony ? The results were in line with independent opinion polls. Which referendums was phony ? The first Iraqi election after Sadam was toppled was certainly phony. The US military whisked away the ballot boxes for a week after voting was completed before announcing that the Shia (60% of Iraqis) had failed to get a majority (despite the 20% Bathist Sunni boycotting the election so only the 20% Kurds voted against the 60% Shia).

geedeesee -> SnarkyGrumpkin 31 May 2015 11:50

From article: He [Clegg] also argued that the country should lose the right to host the 2018 World Cup after Russian troops allegedly downed the civilian airliner Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine last July.

Well, there's evidence in itself. Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. (The burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies). He wants to punish before the publication o the report. It's like a mediaeval witch-hunt. The law of the jungle seems to be Clegg's guiding principle. No surprise he's been banned.

JordanFromLondon -> Havingalavrov 31 May 2015 11:45

"Putin wants sanctions" ... what a bunch of silly conjecture. As for "Putin style rule" and "Tzar" .. you presumably know that Russia held democratic elections which Putin won. That's more than many of the US/UK allies can say (take your pick of the Gulf state leaders). Don't buy into the mindless anti-Russian propaganda doing the rounds. I suspect that it's intended to soften public opnion for anti-Russian attrocities committed in our name to come.

Huo Fu Yan -> David Port 31 May 2015 11:36

It's true, 1/3 the list are politicians and military leader from Poland and baltics with no intend to enter Russia anyways. The rest are merely people engaged in military organisations (should be banned naturally) or weird political groups and initiatives.

Furthermore, there are a few irrelevant politicians on the list for whatever reason. To be frank, a few people from that list you wouldt want in your own country either.

meewaan 31 May 2015 11:07

let me guess, The list probably contains politicians whose real loyalty maybe is with the US? Judge from the 2 names mentioned, Malcolm Riffkind is Co-Vice Chair of the Global Panel Foundation – America – with Dr. Dov S. Zakheim, the former U.S Under-Secretary of Defense and Comptroller of the Armed Forces.

Not sure about banning Nick Clegg, - has his wife remunerated by her work for companies linked to the US? Take, for example, Mrs Clegg's firm's advertisement (again, on its website) of the fact it makes considerable sums from helping rich people avoid inheritance tax, saying that it offers 'personal estate planning advice and financial and tax-planning services to high net worth individuals'.

'We combine sophisticated estate planning skills with international resources . . . We help U.S. and non-U.S. trustees and beneficiaries transfer wealth efficiently through lifetime and testamentary trusts designed to minimise tax exposure.'

SuchindranathAiyer 31 May 2015 10:35

It required a "Tit for Tat" to establish that sanctions are working? Here is the geo-political back drop:

Reigan and Gorby arrived at certain agreements and understandings which Clinton (the husband) violated. He pulled Poland and others into NATO and bombed Russian ally Belgrade, violating international law, while a helpless Russia fumed, for 84 days to given Islam its first ethnically cleansed enclaves (Bosnia and Kosovo) after 1489.

Bush (the son), declared the "Star Wars" missile shield in direct violation of the Regan-Gorbachev agreements while Russia continued to fume, but began to re arm and prepare itself for war. Apart from, of course, violating International Law and invading Russian ally Iraq to distract anger over 9/11 from Saudi Arabia and its Nuclear-Terrorist sword arm Pakistan and threw thriving communities of Jews, Christians, Yazidis, discos and bars that the Saudis, Qataris and Kuwaitis resented into the maws of Islam.

Russia fumed and continued to rearm and began to rally around Putin's nationalism. The US commenced "regime change" operations in Russian (and Iraqi) Secular ally Syria, throwing even more Jews, Christians, Yazidis and Kurds into the maws of Islam. US was to weakened by Iraq to wage war unilaterally in Syria. China and Russia blocked the US at the UN. Putin wrote an open letter to Obama on Syria in the NY Times which gained traction with the American Citizens, bending Obama's nose and driving the US regime change operation in Syria further under ground (covert). Prince Bandar (what an appropriate name!) head of Saudi intelligence went ot Moscow to bribe Putin to back the putsch in Syria. Putin refused and told Bandar that if Islam tried a Beslan at Sochi, he would bomb the Q'aba. This bent the Saudi nose. So the US commenced operation regime change in Ukraine. This sparked the secession of Crime to Russia. The US fumed and fretted because its more develoed and intelligent NATO allies (France and Germany) would not back the US backed fascist regime in Ukraine. The US shot down MH-17 in a false flag operation and started a canard against Russia to revive NATO. There is a NATO now imposing US-Saudi conceived sanctions on Russia. We are now in the Second Cold War so NATO won't go away. Russia and China will ally because, Clinton to Obama, the US has demonstrated the dangers of a unipolar world, particularly as Islamic Petro Dollars own the decision and opinion makers of the West and have used the US military to further the Islamic agenda as much as carry on with the old anti-Communist prejudices. (While Russia is not Totalitarian, China is. India is really the last Soviet franchise in the World with its "Animal Farm" totalitarian Constitution and thinking which is why the US is an ally of Pakistan and as hostile to India as to Russia. Consider that as recently as 2012, the man who lolls in Lutyen's drawing room today moved "retrospective" legislation in the same Parliament that nationalized 20% of private (non minority) education and removed the truth from Govt approved History text books, in the highest traditions of Nehru, Ambedkar and Indira Gandhi.)

wilpost37 -> AbsolutelyFapulous 31 May 2015 10:33

Absolutely/Goman

Almost all the tourists of Crimea were Ukrainians before 2014. They stopped coming, and likely are spending their vacation elsewhere.

Crimea is rebuilding its infrastructures (Kiev had neglected them for 22 years), and its tourist base.

It expects to have over 4 million visitors in 2015 and 5 million in 2016, because many Russians are no longer going to EU countries, and are going to Crimea, Sochi, etc., instead. It will take time, but Crimea is a beautiful area.

Crimea became part of the Russian Empire by conquest over the Tartars in 1793.

The Tartars had been kidnapping nearby people (several million over many decades) and selling them to the Turks. Catherine the Great put an end to that.

Khrushev was stupid to give it to Ukraine in 1954.

After the CIA/FBI-assisted coup of Kiev, the Crimean people, 67% Russian, feared for their future, as did the Donbas people.

SHappens 31 May 2015 10:24

"Just one thing remains unclear: did our European co-workers want these lists to minimise inconveniences for potential 'denied persons' or to stage a political show?"

It is pretty clear that it turned out to be another media circus.

Socraticus -> alpamysh 31 May 2015 10:12

Lesson 1 - everyone on this site is a guest, you included
Lesson 2 - the majority of posters herein are actually westerners, not 'Russian trolls'
Lesson 3 - all politicians lie to advance their own social/economic/political agendas
Lesson 4 - all MSM distort/suppress the truth to support governmental narratives
Lesson 5 - many of us westerners actually bother to investigate the true facts
Lesson 6 - if a leader's being demonized its because they won't capitulate to the US
Lesson 7 - every illicit invasion is preceded by demonization of a leader/country
Lesson 8 - your constant anti-Russia/Putin comments mark you as a shill/troll
Lesson 9 - you can educate yourself or remain blind to facts - your choice
Lesson 10 - you will learn the consequences of your choices

UnsleepingMind -> EssoBlue 31 May 2015 10:12

You realise that Russia is one the most important members of the BRICS and that they group has recently established a development bank? That's hardly the sign that the other BRICS nations are not reading from the same hymn sheet as Russia...

http://www.scmp.com/comment/article/1580523/brics-development-bank-should-challenge-washington-consensus

Russia has also joined China's Asian Infrastructure Bank. Another clear sign that it is strengthening its relations with other BRICS members.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/29/russia-joins-chinas-asian-infrastructure-bank-but-doubts-its-power-against-imf/

44theorderofknights 31 May 2015 09:57

What did anyone expect flowers from russia from the unfair treatment it's getting. The west paying for Ukraine part nazi government and creating a coup in a democratically ekected president last february. Then sanctioning the Russian people expecting them to turn in yheir president. The west should be ashamed of what they accomplished that being fronting a proxy war against Russia.

Vijay Raghavan -> Huo Fu Yan 31 May 2015 09:54

Developing all-round military-to-military relations. China's armed forces will further their exchanges and cooperation with the Russian military within the framework of the comprehensive strategic partnership of coordination between China and Russia, and foster a comprehensive, diverse and sustainable framework to promote military relations in more fields and at more levels

http://eng.mod.gov.cn/Database/WhitePapers/2015-05/26/content_4586715.htm

They made that statement in their white paper issued last week.Offcourse Guardian or BBC will not keep up with such "Breaking News".

UnsleepingMind -> EssoBlue 31 May 2015 09:49

1) Yes, the BRICS countries are very much behind Russia.

2) Russia, unlike the US, has tabled a resolution to condemn Nazism and Nazi movements in the highest forum possible (the UN). The US, along with Canada, and its puppet government in Ukraine, voted against it (in defiance of most of the world's nations).

[1] http://russia-insider.com/en/de-dollarization-du-jour-russia-backs-brics-alternative-swift/ri7566
[2] http://rt.com/news/207899-un-anti-nazism-resolution/

UnsleepingMind -> Tom20000 31 May 2015 09:43

You would think, with all the technology at the disposal of the US security state, that it might (just might) be able to provide us with real, irrefutable evidence of a ground invasion. You know, perhaps some high resolution satellite imagery, the odd photo of a modern Russian tank moving over the Ukrainian border, some chatter from the wires between embassy officials and security personnel, etc., etc.

But of course we have nothing of the sort. What we have is a desperate corporate media, dutifully parroting the nonsense from the US State Department, and investing virtually nothing in on-the-ground investigative reporting. But real evidence? We are in very, VERY short supply of that.

UnsleepingMind -> ponott 31 May 2015 09:34

I can only assume it is as badge of honour if you buy into all the dimwitted propaganda being published by the western corporate media -- who seem to have a daily axe to grind against the Russian state, but who say nothing about the warmongering actions of the US. I imagine I would have the same opinion of you if I was to uncritically swallow such toxic rubbish.

UnsleepingMind -> alpamysh 31 May 2015 09:30

'Because we have the right to ban people who invade other countries'.

That's why we've recently arrested George Bush (who, with the help of Tony Blair invaded Iraq and Afghanistan), Barack Obama (who bombed Libya, engineered coups in Honduras and Ukraine, and is now funding Islamic extremists in Syria)...

We reserve the right to ban, but we use that 'right' to ban official enemies (i.e. anyone daring to follow a geopolitical game plan that is distinctly at odds with our own).

Also, your suggestion that Putin's Russia has invaded 'other countries' is preposterous. The western media has been spewing this nonsense for months now and yet there is not a shred of real evidence (including hi-res satellite imagery) to back it up. And if you are referring to Crimea, let me say this: Russia troops have been staged in Crimea for many, many years; moreover, the people of Crimea voted to break with Ukraine in a recent referendum (not that that squares with your hectoring rhetoric).

PyrrhicVictory 31 May 2015 09:27

The doors of the gravy train for politicians like Clegg are fast closing. When we exit the EU, then the Brussels gravy train will also be beyond him. He might, just might, having to start behaving like an honest politician for once and earn a decent wage based on truth not lies.

johnsmith44 -> NegativeCamber 31 May 2015 09:25

Why dont you go spread democracy to some oil-producing Third World country, together with your poodles the brits? And make sure you do it properly, so that monstrosities like ISIS are guaranteed?

more democracy exporting: http://multipletext.com/2011/images/3-22-US-democracy.jpg

and more: https://syrianfreepress.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/we-will-help-the-syrian-people-to-achieve-democracy-20140603.jpg

and more: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/76/31/c0/7631c0787ae47cfc74cd8488390cc5d5.jpg

johnsmith44 -> alpamysh 31 May 2015 09:21

1) Google for "Operation Northwoods", that is, CIA's proposal to Kennedy to shoot down a passenger jet over Cuba.

2) Read here: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

ex-CIA personnel openly describing their involvement in the dowining of Korean Airlines passenger flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983 and I believe it becomes apparent who downed MH-17.

Jerome Fryer -> Popeyes 31 May 2015 09:11

We're the global overlords, and so second-rate nations aren't allowed to reciprocate our petulant actions. When they do so it causes some people to question the assumed status of the 'Western' hegemony (and our claimed system of morally superior 'values'). We can't allow that sort of thing, Popeyes.

davidncldl 31 May 2015 09:10

The Guardian has a clear pro-EU/USA position on the new cold war against Russia. Mr Putin is their democratically elected leader and he is enormously popular. Only an imbecile would be surprised or indignant about Russia retaliating for unjust EU/US sanctions. What do the globalisers and bankers' friends at the Guardian expect? I imagine you think that the ruination of the Venezuelan and Russian economies by the manipulation of the oil price is just "free market" activity.

Hass Castorp 31 May 2015 09:07

"More than 6,200 people have been killed in fighting between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian separatists."

This is a language of propaganda, Guardian. Last i checked Guardian advertised to be a newspaper, not a bulletin of The Ministry of Truth.

My reformulation; "More than 6200 (in some estimates up to 50.000) have been killed and up to 1 million civilians displaced (who mostly fled to Russia) by Ukrainian government troops and private terrorist kommandos of Ukrainian oligarchs."

Jerome Fryer -> henry919 31 May 2015 09:03

The only way to effectively block people from other regions (blanket censor them, in other words) would be to positively identify the source. All that you would likely achieve is blocking actual individual commentators and letting through the government astroturfers.

Why you would want to resort to such tactics is worth asking. The 'Western side' may be losing the propaganda war with Russia because our lies are bigger and harder to sell -- rather than Pooty-poot being cleverer.

Repeated debunked claims in our media are also going to be far more damaging than anything similar in Russia. The problem doesn't lie with those you are asserting to be 'trolls' that are disputing the reporting -- the problem lies with the reporting.

(If your argument must be protected against criticism then it is a weak argument.)

[Sep 16, 2018] The Dutch are NATO's plumbers. The do the dirty little jobs no one else wants to do

Sep 16, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Symen Danziger , Sep 16, 2018 3:29:48 AM | link

By the time Dutch involvement in the coup in the Ukraine, the support for neo-nazi's and corrupt olichargs who want to kill the population in Donetsk/Lugansk and further the NATO agenda and the absurd deal with the Ukraine about the MH17 investigation are exposed, only people with serious mental issues will believe the official MH17 report.

The Dutch are NATO's plumbers. The do the dirty little jobs no one else wants to do. From drone targeting around the globe for Uncle Sam (there was a case in court with Somali nationals who lost their loved ones because the Dutch militaty intelligence agency illegally shared tapped sat phone data from an anti-piracy mission with the US to kill supposed terrorists in Somalia with drone strikes) to funnelling tens of millions of euros to headchopping terrorists under the guise humanitarian assistance or helping democratic groups.

The concept of aiding "armed moderate opposition" in another country is criminal and the politicians who were responsible should be extradited to Syria for prosecution as terrorist financiers.

How would the Dutch react if around a hundred countries would put up 70 million euros each to create, train, arm and assist "armed moderate opposition" in the Netherlands? How would the Dutch react if their country was torn apart by mercenaries and criminals from over eighty countries?

How would the Dutch react if a few hundred thousand of them would be killed and a few million of them would turn into refugees?

How would the Dutch react if their country was bombed into the stone age?

All for democracy and human rights...


Nikita , Sep 16, 2018 4:08:47 AM | link

The stench of the continued cover up and the slothful admitance of funding the blindingly obvious putrid jihadist PR team called the WhiteHelmet is what we should be talking about. Will Netflix must make a massive public apology for making their vile PR WH movies ? That is what we need .
All the western governments have knowingly lied and inflicted war and death by silence and silent support for mercenaries in Syria who kill and inflict a medieval hated doctrine and zealot ideology which has caused immense suffering and destruction.
Let's have a western leader stand and tell the truth and repent. The MSM vile machine is not in control of the narrative anymore . It's time to condem this flimsy tissue of drivel, this pathetic cartel of liars to the past.
The truth has been undeniably since the fall of East Aleppo in December 2016.
All western media outlets and powers have lied and perpetuated the suffering and war in Syria since then .

stan van houcke , Sep 16, 2018 4:45:22 AM | link
How the Dutch corruption works one can see, among other things, when one looks at the attitude of professor André Nollkaemper, who kept silent about the fact that the Netherlands supported terrorists in Syria. One has to know the following:

'The politicians adopted a policy that all future support on intervention would be reviewed by an International Law expert. In this case that would have been André Nollkaemper – Dean and Professor of Public International Law at the Faculty of Law of the University of Amsterdam. Of course he was not consulted by PM Mark Rutte of MH17 fame.'

More important even: he himself kept silent for years, like the Dutch mainstream-media and the Dutch politicians and the so called urban elites, after it was well known via internet that the Dutch government supported terrorists.

0use4msm , Sep 16, 2018 4:55:37 AM | link
This is a modern day miracle, a rare case in which investigative reporting triumphs over access journalism, resulting in actual political change.
Will , Sep 16, 2018 5:38:55 AM | link
A 2014 article by Cory Morningstar which unpicks the creation of war-support NGOs and the synchronised propaganda, including the White Helmets. A key document of the war.
http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2014/09/17/syria-avaaz-purpose-the-art-of-selling-hate-for-empire/

[Sep 15, 2018] It would be too much to hope that the Dutch will do the right thing, admit their dismal leadership and conflict of interest, and remove themselves from the investigation, and that the Australians on the team might also resign, since they've also allowed the Ukrainians to push them around

Notable quotes:
"... Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed. ..."
Sep 15, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Jen , Sep 15, 2018 4:47:33 PM | link

Aaah, looks like I have been beaten by Ort in the hope that this new Dutch disease of honesty and transparency might soon spread to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team's enquiry into the MH17 shoot-down and the reports it has issued, leading to the admission by the Dutch that from the very start they botched the investigation and allowed the Ukrainian SFB on the team to dictate the terms under which the investigation would proceed.

The Dutch also never admitted that a conflict of interest was present in their leadership of the team: that conflict being the fact that MH17 set off from Amsterdam Airport Schiphol (AAS), itself the site of a previous incident in 2009 when the Underpants Bomber boarded a jet bound for Detroit and tried to detonate his bomb in mid-air. Any possibility that AAS itself should have been part of the investigation was likely nixed.

It would be too much to hope that the Dutch will do the right thing, admit their dismal leadership and conflict of interest, and remove themselves from the investigation, and that the Australians on the team might also resign, since they've also allowed the Ukrainians to push them around.

iano , Sep 15, 2018 6:11:03 PM | link
@Stan van Houcke (9) I'm dutch too and totally agree. The Dutch media, especially Nieuwsuur and Volkskrant lost all its credibility. Only fools will take any of their information serious. This is getting ever more worse and I don't expect any change in that.
These revelations should have come much earlier. They might have expected the information to come to the public anyhow, which made them decide to pretend some investigative journalism. In the meanwhile they brainwash us by repeating false news on Syria, on Venezuela, on Nicaragua, and so on....
The same for the notorious Dutch investigations. It's all false, to name some of them: The 2011 comodo/diginotar CA hack research (blaming Iran), the 2014 MH17 research (blaming Russia), the januari 2018 invented 'evidence' for the DNC-hack (blaming Russia).....

[Sep 15, 2018] Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders using a diplomatic passport and a false identity

Notable quotes:
"... I'll add one. Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders, traveling under a diplomatic passport and a false identity (assumed name). This put him right in the middle of the Ukraine crises, along with Biden and V Nuland, and the mess they created just to get NATO on Russia's borders. ..."
Sep 15, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Curious , August 17, 2018 at 2:30 am

I'll add one. Brennan traveling to Ukraine to meet with the coup leaders, traveling under a diplomatic passport and a false identity (assumed name).

This put him right in the middle of the Ukraine crises, along with Biden and V Nuland, and the mess they created just to get NATO on Russia's borders.

This is as big, if not bigger than his lying to Congress, so I'll throw in the reminder.

[Aug 24, 2018] I read (Google) Brennan visited Kiev, in the end of June 2014., about 3 weeks before the MH17 was taken down.

Notable quotes:
"... Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between his visit and the taking sown of MH17. ..."
"... The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17 should give one an idea of this). ..."
Aug 24, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Fesje van der Wal-Kijlstra , August 18, 2018 at 4:06 am

I read (Google) Brennan visited Kiev, in the end of June 2014., about 3 weeks before the MH17 was taken down.

Oliver Stone knew CIA had a false flag incident in mind when their invasion in the Bay of Pigs did not work out to end the rule of Fidel Castro in Cuba: taking down an aircraft and blaming Castro for it. John F. Kennedy did not permit this.

Assuming Brennan's visit was not just to be polite, could there be a connection between his visit and the taking sown of MH17.

Russian rebels shot 6 descending planes with granates from their shoulder. Poroshenko called them "terrorists" and this false flag (?) could be helpful.

Anne Jaclard , August 16, 2018 at 7:55 pm

I do know that the Wall Street Journal mentioned Brennan's alleged role in the creation of the Steele Dossier and the FBI texting scheme in both the news and editorial pages, but I still don't think that he personally is the "ringleader" of all of this.

The entire trans-Atlantic Establishment is behind the anti-Russia campaign and it started long before the election (for any doubters, Robert Parry's articles on Ukraine and MH17 should give one an idea of this).

[Aug 18, 2018] I blame Brennan for MH 17 crash in Ukraine.

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack. ..."
Aug 18, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

col from oz , Aug 18, 2018 2:25:52 AM | 74

I blame (Brennan) for MH 17 crash in Ukraine. Two months before Brennan was in Kiev. The Obama Whitehouse denied (at first) that CIA Brennan was in Kiev however video proof existed and the Whitehouse had to admit that Brennan was their. It is my opinion that a soft go head to Ukraine intell(with extreme deniability) to bring down a passenger Airline and blame it on Russia.

Despicable man (Obama incl) who could easy resolve who fired the missile as the satellite photos were/have/or never be made public as it would show a completely different story as to the one they are spinning. It's the old Sherlock Holmes 'the dog who did not bark' is the true reason why satellite footage supposedly blaming evil Russians launching missiles.

That's why Obama went for a whitehouse ( a political document) report instead of full intelligence e report that would have satellite footage with expert analysis which would show Ukraine culpability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78r1qAHUVwY

Kerry statement to 50 million people that they have the satellite footage.

Ukraine Defense Minister( Ex Head Intell) getting his ducks in a row Rebels / have a new Russian supplied a new....

https://nationalpost.com/news/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-violating-its-airspace-allowing-weapons-across-border-as-crisis-escalates

With the spliced tape ( why would you need one if the Rebels really did it/ release time/tape, hours after planes destruction. So pre planned with the usual suspects.....

Perimetr , Aug 18, 2018 1:10:46 AM | 72
I would like to add one more war crime to the list attributed to the scum Brennan, who traveled to Kiev in 2014 to help oversee the initial attack on the Donbass by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The attack was branded as the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" (ATO), and I am sure that Brennan was instrumental in crafting and labeling the attack.

[Aug 16, 2018] DRAIN THE SWAMP Trump FIRES Notorious Neocon Witch Victoria Nuland!

Youtube video
Aug 16, 2018 | www.youtube.com

MEATPOET , 1 year ago

Thank you, GOD!!! She should count herself lucky that this is all that happens given her EXTENSIVE war crimes.

regolo gellini , 1 year ago

Those that threw fire bombs in Maidan Square were ZEE (Blackwater) people paid for by dark CIA money and Victoria, the cow, Nuland was there to check the payment went through

jim52536 , 1 year ago

Great day for America and the world to clean the trash masters of delusion out of the state dept...

wize oldfart , 1 year ago

i bet Poroshenko feels very lonely and abandoned these days.

[Aug 16, 2018] MH-17 The Untold Story. Exploring possible causes of the tragedy

YouTube
Notable quotes:
"... One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the area. ..."
Aug 16, 2018 | www.youtube.com

John Rooijakkers , 3 years ago

One thing the Russians convinced me about is the fact that i do not trust the Ukraine either, the first days are critical to prove something and just at that moment they shoot the area.

As a Dutchman which country suffers the most is only one thing important: Who did it?

We want to know and bring them to justice. Complete families where shot out of the sky with 80 children on board. Words can not not describe how their loved ones feel.

[Aug 15, 2018] Did the USA intentionally shut down Iranian passenger airliner: Sailors who claim they genuinely confused the Airbus with an F14 should not be allowed inside an operations room ever again, because it would be inexcusable incompetence.

Aug 15, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Mark Chapman August 3, 2018 at 8:30 pm

The Iranian Airbus was also in a recognized air corridor used by civil aviation, and its IFF showed it was both climbing and traveling at a speed which strongly suggested it was a civil aircraft. The VINCENNES had positioned itself underneath an aviation corridor, so that aircraft traveling in a recognized airlane on their legitimate business would appear to be closing the cruiser. The search/acquisition radar on the F14 was the AN/AWG-9 – its electronic signature is extremely distinctive and looks nothing like the search/nav radar on the Airbus. It would be impossible to confuse the two. Sailors who claim they genuinely confused the Airbus with an F14 should not be allowed inside an operations room ever again, because it would be inexcusable incompetence.

Additionally, when the ship's weapon-control acquisition radar locked on to the target in preparation for firing, it would have indicated the target was climbing and not descending – its beam constantly 'paints' the target and registers any change in direction or altitude, since it must guide a missile to it.

But there is no shortage of disastrous situations, often leading to loss of life, in which the American military claims to have simply made an honest and really unavoidable mistake.

Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 11:01 am
Yes, it was epic incompetency combined the desire to put on a show followed by a coverup reminiscent of official investigations of police murder of innocent civilians.

I forgot to mention a surprising claim in the documentary. It indicated that the captain could have aborted the attack right up to the point of the missiles reaching the target. Do control systems for anti-aircraft, anti-ship or ballistic missiles have such an abort option? I was under the impression that once they were launched, there was no turning back. I suppose if the missiles rely on ground guidance then they could be directed away from the target at any time. but is this really an option?

Mark Chapman August 4, 2018 at 5:11 pm
Long-range anti-air missile systems like the Standard SM have a 'kill' function which terminates the engagement (Command Destruct). But what it actually does is terminate guidance, so that the missile no longer has a target reference. A missile whose engagement is thus broken will continue to fly until it runs out of propellant, using its last-known target position as a reference. If the engagement is terminated early, and the missile is not almost at intercept, there's a good chance it will miss. Fired into a busy civil-air corridor, though, there's also a chance it will blind-impact something else that was never an intended target.
Northern Star August 4, 2018 at 11:42 am
Cocsukker in Chief Ronnie Raygun was POTUS at the time small wonder there were no apologies or admissions of culpability:

http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/No_Apologies_for_Downing_Flight_655.htm

http://www.iransview.com/photos-you-may-not-have-seen-iranian-civil-plane-shot-down-by-us-navy/1290/

Northern Star August 4, 2018 at 11:51 am
"in which the American military claims to have simply made an honest and really unavoidable mistake."

Yeah .over and over .

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/al-amiriyya-bombing-iraq-180213101835151.html

Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 1:21 pm
Like the Vietnam war as an honest mistake made by good well-meaning men. Right. The US has not even progressed beyond the denial stage. The fall will be long and hard.
kirill August 4, 2018 at 1:55 pm
My Lai was the result of frustration in US troops in Vietnam. Basically the "manifest destiny" of the USA means that it can never do any wrong. In spite of all the hate projection on Russia and Russians, they do not have such a delusional mindset. In fact, they are excessively attacked from both within and outside Russia about various historical events. We see this with the MH17 hoax and the Iran Air 655 (where is the chorus of anti-US voices on this atrocity?)
Samenleving August 4, 2018 at 9:47 am
Talking of air disasters, does anyone remember the "bijlmerramp" of 1992?
Mark Chapman August 4, 2018 at 5:00 pm
Holy shit. Great catch, this is the first I had ever heard about any of this. Works nicely as a backgrounder also on the reliability of the Dutch government as an impartial investigator of MH17.
Samenleving August 5, 2018 at 4:49 am
Oh, the Dutch! Israel has a hold over them because of WW2. Their political elite based its post-war national image on supposed widespread Dutch resistance to the German occupation (hiding Jews, giving German soldiers wrong directions while being ever so polite, defiant Queen Wilhelmina leading the government-in-exile). Soldaat van Oranje is the book and film which puts this myth across so brilliantly.

In the 60s, the Dutch counterculture started to uncover the ugly truth. Prince Bernhard was an I.G. Farben spy and a Nazi, 75% of Dutch jews perished (highest percentage in western europe). In Amsterdam, jews were a commodity – when they ran out of money to PAY those who hid them, they were SOLD to Dutch police collaborators and rounded up for deportation.

It was always about money. The information in the article below started to emerge when I was living in Holland. I didn't think anything could shock me, but this – and the real story of Friedrich Weinreb – certainly did.

https://archives.globalresearch.ca/articles/LOF209A.html

https://www.haaretz.com/1.4853513

This shameful wartime history was a subject only for the Dutch to discuss among themselves. To the outside world, they promoted Anne Frank, philosemitism, and the habit of agreeing with every foreigner at his own level of knowledge.

Paul Verhoeven, who made the patriotic-myth film Soldaat van Oranje in 1977, told the tale of this widespread collaboration, treachery, and end-of-war vindictive score-settling in the more recent Zwartboek in 2006. Both films are well worth watching.

Mark Chapman August 5, 2018 at 3:22 pm
I'm speechless. Probably the same Thyssen family which is currently half of Thyssen-Krupp: I seem to remember reading that Krupp was investigated for war crimes over Krupp Motor Works.

https://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/

We currently probably know Thyssen-Krupp best for elevators, but they are a big diversified industrial outfit.

ErGalimba August 6, 2018 at 12:25 am
There is an excellent book written in the 60's about Krupp. As a matter of fact there are two well known such books apparently, but I've only read William Manchester's "The Arms of Krupp" which traces the family line back to the 17th century. It's definitely a product of its time, both in terms of style and presentation, and in terms of perspective, but with that in mind it does an excellent job of conveying the essence of the Krupp history, from its humble beginnings, to the family's complicity with Hitler, all the way to the Krupp family's loss of control of the firm in the late 60's, which the author curiously connects, at least marginally, to a form of "private Ostpolitik" on part of the firm in looking to sell large amounts of machinery to the DDR. Its a fine piece of narrative history.

Here's a review: https://patricktreardon.com/book-review-the-arms-of-krupp-by-william-manchester/

yalensis August 6, 2018 at 3:15 am
Wow, confirms my impression that ALL of Western Europe was basically pro-Nazi and fit quite well into the broader Reich.
Exceptions and honorable resistance coming in only onesies and twosies.
Patient Observer August 6, 2018 at 3:27 am
As far as I know, the only truly large scale grass roots resistance to the Nazis were in the Soviet Union and Serbia. As for the rest of Europe, the "conquest" by Germany was little more than an upper management shakeup at worst or, more typically, a friendly management takeover.
Patient Observer August 6, 2018 at 3:23 am
I am also surprised but not really (does that make sense)? The foundational value of Western Europe is racism, class and divine rights of the elite. Nevertheless, it is shocking to learn how those "values" are applied and how the truth is suppressed; least the peasants raise their heads from their iPhones.
Patient Observer August 4, 2018 at 5:47 pm
I found it especially disgusting the claim the cargo was just "perfume". I bet they had a good laugh on that one. Those guys are such comedians!
Jen August 5, 2018 at 4:52 am
Wikipedia article on Boeing 747:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747

' During later stages of the flight test program, flutter testing showed that the wings suffered oscillation under certain conditions. This difficulty was partly solved by reducing the stiffness of some wing components. However, a particularly severe high-speed flutter problem was solved only by inserting depleted uranium counterweights as ballast in the outboard engine nacelles of the early 747s.[54] This measure caused anxiety when these aircraft crashed, for example El Al Flight 1862 at Amsterdam in 1992 with 282 kilograms (622 lb) of uranium in the tailplane (horizontal stabilizer) '

So, all Boeing 747 jets contain some depleted uranium as ballast in their wings and the engines in the wings, and in their tails. Gulp,

Patient Observer August 5, 2018 at 7:22 am
Can anyone imagine if a Russian civilian airliner had resorted to a similar solution? Flying Chernobyls! Must be banned from Western airports!

About 4% of all 747s have crashed or otherwise suffered damage beyond repair. That is a lot of depleted uranium. NATO used a great deal of DU in its attack on Serbia as well. Per Wikipdia regarding health effects:

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of concerns about potential long-term health effects.[5][6] Normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, heart, and numerous other systems can be affected by exposure to uranium, a toxic metal.[7] The biological half-life (the average time it takes for the human body to eliminate half the amount in the body) for uranium is about 15 days.[8] The aerosol or spallation frangible powder produced by impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites, leading to possible inhalation by human beings.[9]

A 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU."[10]

kirill August 5, 2018 at 7:08 pm
There is hysteria about lead in paint and in gasoline. But somehow uranium is not harmful. Freaking clowns. If you are going to worry about lead, then you better start worrying about other toxic heavy metals such as uranium.
Jen August 4, 2018 at 9:33 pm
Don't forget also that Amsterdam Airport Schiphol was also the place where the Underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab boarded a plane bound for Michigan back in December 2009.

The company in charge of airport security at AAS then was ICTS whose subsidiary Huntleigh USA was responsible for airport security at Boston's Logan International Airport on 11 September 2001.

https://ictsintl.com/about-icts/company-profile

Patient Observer August 5, 2018 at 4:08 am
IIRC, the Underpants bomber did not have a valid passport and had other travel issues as well. A US lawyer who happened to witness the brouhaha swore in an affidavit that the authorities, nevertheless, allowed him to board the plane without a passport.

Having traveled through Schipol airport many times, I can say that the authorities give the appearance of being very security conscious. For example, they almost always interview every passenger on US bound flights. If you appear "nervous", the questioning intensifies. I can not imagine them allowing anyone on the plane without a valid passport. Presumably, US authorities were contacted to confirm the individual would be granted entry. So the security failure (if that what is was) included the US. More likely, it was something else.

Samenleving August 5, 2018 at 5:01 am
Another Schipol Airport story

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/oct/19/news/cl-58951

yalensis August 5, 2018 at 11:30 am
First there was the Shoe Bomber, after which the TSA acquired ever more powers, and people had to start taking off their shoes at the airport.
Conspiracy theory: The Underpants Bomber was also an inside job. The plan was to stage a fake terrorist attack, so that the TSA could force people to start taking their underpants off.
This plan would have worked, but too many important people drew the line at taking off their underpants.
Mark Chapman August 5, 2018 at 5:57 pm
Actually, what appeared right after the Underwear Bomber was the Rapiscan full-body scanner. It did not work at all for its designed purpose, and was easy to fool; moreover, and despite TSA's fervent promises that people's privacy would be respected, and it was not possible to preserve body images after the person had passed through the scanner, those were lies. Probably few were surprised to discover that, as lying has become expected behavior for federal agencies, and all of them do it all the time. Cynicism is a growth industry.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/tsa-screener-confession-102912?o=0

yalensis August 6, 2018 at 2:48 pm
Yup. Every new terror attack led to more infringements of personal liberties and ever-increasing powers for the TSA and Federal Government. It's either (1) a series of false-flag conspiracies; or, at best, (2) locking the barn door after the horse has already escaped.

[Aug 15, 2018] Consider the slapdash investigation also of MH17, in which Ukraine was allowed to get away with shelling the wreckage for days

Aug 15, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Mark Chapman August 1, 2018 at 7:58 am

And that seems to be the theme with modern-day British criminal incidents which are blamed on Russia – all the evidence is destroyed. Perhaps that's why the 'incredibly-toxic nerve agent' vehicle was chosen; so that wholesale destruction of all the major evidence would not seem so odd. And don't think it hasn't been noticed.

Consider the slapdash investigation also of MH17, in which Ukraine was allowed to get away with shelling the wreckage for days – although there was no strategic value to the crash site – and was still given a seat on the investigative board and unfettered (probably unsupervised) access to the evidence, as well as a veto over the publication of any findings. Graham Phillips documented the complete disinterest of the investigative body in pieces of wreckage found in woods and other cover by area residents. Contrast that with the shoulder-to-shoulder meticulous search of neighbouring woodlands in the Lockerbie bombing, which resulted in the 'discovery' of a tiny fragment of circuit board, ostensibly from the timing device, which fingered Libya as the culprit.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/police-chief-lockerbie-evidence-was-faked-1-1403341

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9278875/The-story-of-Megrahis-release-must-now-be-told.html

The FBI operative who identified the fragment as a piece of a circuit board which was supplied only to Libya and the Stasi, the linchpin of the case against Megrahi, was later revealed to be a fraud who had given false evidence in American murder trials and had little or no scientific qualifications. The British and US governments have a demonstrated record as fixers.

[Aug 06, 2018] The Rise and Continued Influence of the Neocons. The Project for the New American Century (PNAC)

Notable quotes:
"... The neocons did not vanish with the departure of the Bush Republicans from office, and the rise of Obama . Indeed, the clout of this group and their grip on power is arguably as strong as ever. Not only did they continue to shape the U.S. foreign policy establishment, but they have managed to alter what constitutes acceptable public and media discourse within the world's remaining superpower. The trajectory of neocon influence in Washington is explored in depth in the documentary series, A Very Heavy Agenda, by independent journalist and film-maker Robbie Martin. ..."
"... This feature is followed by an interview with writer, ecological campaigner, and Deep State researcher Mark Robinowitz . Originally recorded and aired in January 2018, Robinowitz helps delineate the factions of power shaping the outcome of the 2016 presidential election, as well as the players within the National Security State, including the neocons, that appear to be manipulating him and his presidency, possibly maneuvering him towards an impeachment within the next year. ..."
"... Robbie Martin is a journalist, musician and documentary film-maker. He is co-host with his sister Abby Martin of Media Roots Radio. A Very Heavy Agenda can be streamed or purchased here . Soundtrack for Film and music for these series from Fluorescent Grey (Robbie Martin). ..."
"... Mark Robinowitz is a writer, political activist, ecological campaigner and permaculture practitioner and publisher of oilempire.us as well as jfkmoon.org . He is based in Eugene, Oregon. ..."
"... from the period between 2014 to 2018, it was like an exponentially rising climate of propaganda against Russia coming from the U.S. media ..."
"... they also were the earliest pioneers pushing this Russiagate Cold War 2.0 mentality. ..."
"... And how it only took, you know, certain nudges and pushes and policy papers , and here we are. They essentially got their way, and Russia has never been more demonized since the fall of communism and the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union. ..."
"... she had over 200 basically hit piece stories written about her within the span of a week, and I was just in this kind of depressed place checking in with her making sure she was doing okay, and not basically getting too stressed out from all this media pressure and this barrage of negative stories. So I was just watching these videos basically from the neocon think-tank that I believe was behind the smear campaign against her. ..."
"... Foreign Policy Initiative is actually a re-branded, reopened version of the Project for The New American Century think tank, which was the most infamous neocon think tank that was behind the Iraq War. ..."
"... Finally I got to Robert Kagan. And I was listening to him, and it struck me differently from the way that most other neoconservatives would talk, because I perceived him as being more candid about the way American foreign policy has actually conducted itself, and also more clever with the way that I perceived him as, re-branding, repackaging neocon rhetoric for the Obama era. ..."
"... the neocons managed to rebrand themselves, massage their rhetoric, and make themselves seem less crazy in order to influence the larger DC foreign policy community into basically accepting and going along with almost all their foreign policy platforms, with the exception of overtly wanting to invade Iran which arguably that is the neocon prize but see, a lot of these smarter neocons like Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol, and a lot of these neocons who managed to convince the blob, they have hidden, and not been open about the fact that they want to overthrow the regime of Iran. ..."
"... That's one of their foreign policy platforms they've sort of brushed under the rug, because that's one of The reason I'm giving that example is because that's how they have managed to cross the aisle, so to speak, in DC and put a hand out to the neoliberal think tanks and say, hey we're kind of on the same side in this, and we all think Putin's bad, and let's really go after him. Let's overthrow Assad. So these are things that the neocons managed to essentially convince and influence the rest of the DC foreign policy community to believe. ..."
"... So the first one is that how right after 9/11, several of these neocons, I think it's Don and Fred Kagan, went on TV and radio kind of immediately after for at least a 24-hour 48-hour period after 9/11 and basically blamed Palestinians for the attack, and were basically outright calling for the U.S. to attack Palestine. And even saying that they had no evidence but we should just go and attack them. So could you talk about what happened there, and what was the effect there? Everyone kind of forgets about this but what happened there, and what do you think the effect of that was? ..."
"... Because, and this is important to know, that Don Kagan is one of the only three authors credited as writing Rebuilding America's Defenses, the infamous paper that PNAC released that says we need a new Pearl Harbor, a catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor. ..."
"... Don Kagan is someone who just, mostly an obscure figure in this, but I'd like to believe that if he was saying that on the radio within 24 hours of 9/11, that it was something being heavily discussed within that community behind the scenes. And h e and his son Fred Kagan are two of the most intellectual, influential neoconservatives in DC. Fred Kagan is behind the Iraq surge, he is also behind the Afghanistan s urge for Obama, directly working under David Petraeus. So these are not just like random neocons. It's important to stress that they are some of the most influential neocon brain-trust type people in DC even though they're so relatively obscure They're not household names. ..."
"... The news media played footage of Palestinians allegedly celebrating the attacks in the middle of a national emergency at 12 p.m. while thousands of people were still missing during the World Trade Center attacks. So this is the kind of stuff that U.S. media was doing. ..."
"... And then also something else interesting Don Kagan brings up in the recording, and maybe you were going to mention this next, but I'll just say it because it's so weird, as he says what would have happened, and keep in mind this is 9/12-01, one day after 9/11. He says, what would have happened if the terrorists had Anthrax on that plane? ..."
Aug 06, 2018 | www.globalresearch.ca

Robert Kagan. William Kristol. Paul Wolfowitz. Richard Perle. John Bolton. Elliott Abrams. Gary Schmitt. These are a few of the names generally associated with a strain of far-right political thought called neoconservatism. [1][2]

Politically, the neocons favour a world in which the United States adopts a much more aggressive military posture, and utilizes its military might to not only contain terrorist and related threats to its security, but force regime change in regions like the Middle East. They further take on the task of 'nation-building' all in the name of creating a safer world for 'democracy.' It was the neocons who promoted the stratagem of pre-emptive military action. [3]

The neocons enjoyed a robust period of influence under the Bush-Cheney administration. The 9/11 attacks and the triggering of a 'war on terrorism' enabled a series of foreign policy choices, most notably the War on Afghanistan and the War on Iraq, which aligned with the aims and aspirations of the group once referred to by President George Bush Sr. as the 'crazies in the basement.'[4]

The neocons did not vanish with the departure of the Bush Republicans from office, and the rise of Obama . Indeed, the clout of this group and their grip on power is arguably as strong as ever. Not only did they continue to shape the U.S. foreign policy establishment, but they have managed to alter what constitutes acceptable public and media discourse within the world's remaining superpower. The trajectory of neocon influence in Washington is explored in depth in the documentary series, A Very Heavy Agenda, by independent journalist and film-maker Robbie Martin.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9kHHR_yy9CE

In part one of a special two part interview by Global Research News Hour guest contributor Scott Price , Martin describes the inspiration behind making the film, the post 9/11 atmosphere in which the neocons flourished, and the neocons' role in fostering the new Cold War mentality which contributed to the smearing of his better-known sister, former RT host Abby Martin .

This feature is followed by an interview with writer, ecological campaigner, and Deep State researcher Mark Robinowitz . Originally recorded and aired in January 2018, Robinowitz helps delineate the factions of power shaping the outcome of the 2016 presidential election, as well as the players within the National Security State, including the neocons, that appear to be manipulating him and his presidency, possibly maneuvering him towards an impeachment within the next year.

Robbie Martin is a journalist, musician and documentary film-maker. He is co-host with his sister Abby Martin of Media Roots Radio. A Very Heavy Agenda can be streamed or purchased here . Soundtrack for Film and music for these series from Fluorescent Grey (Robbie Martin).

Mark Robinowitz is a writer, political activist, ecological campaigner and permaculture practitioner and publisher of oilempire.us as well as jfkmoon.org . He is based in Eugene, Oregon.

LISTEN TO THE SHOW

Click to download the audio (MP3 format)

Transcript – Interview with Robbie Martin, July 2018

... ... ...

And of course, right after the Sochi Olympics, is when the Euromaidan protest in Ukraine, it kind of boiled over to the point where there were, you know, walls of flaming tires all over Euromaidan – basically a war zone. And of course the Ukrainian government fell due to a coup which many believe, including myself, was partially U.S. sponsored by the U.S. State Department.

And then things from there, Scott, just started to spiral out of contro , and from the period between 2014 to 2018, it was like an exponentially rising climate of propaganda against Russia coming from the U.S. media, and when I made my film series, I didn't I made it before the election, s o I didn't realize how hysterical it was going to get after the election, and frankly, I had no idea it was going to get this bad, to the point that it's got now.

I know that doesn't quite answer your question about my inspiration, but it 's kind of a long answer to your question is my film itself is essentially.. was tracking the neocon influence and how the neoconservatives from the Bush era that pushed the Iraq war, that constructed the blueprints to the Iraq war, how they also were the earliest pioneers pushing this Russiagate Cold War 2.0 mentality.

Neocon 101: What do neoconservatives believe?.

And how it only took, you know, certain nudges and pushes and policy papers , and here we are. They essentially got their way, and Russia has never been more demonized since the fall of communism and the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union. So that's I don't know if that was too long of an answer for your question , but that's what was sort of my inspiration for how I made it. My sister was also kind of a part of the story because some of these neocons actually tried to smear her while she was working for RT.

... ... ...

RM: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think at first, I was really fascinated by the psychology of these key neoconservatives. I was watching, at first I didn't even know I was going to make a film. I was kind of in this weird place mentally, my sister had just been put through the wringer, she had over 200 basically hit piece stories written about her within the span of a week, and I was just in this kind of depressed place checking in with her making sure she was doing okay, and not basically getting too stressed out from all this media pressure and this barrage of negative stories. So I was just watching these videos basically from the neocon think-tank that I believe was behind the smear campaign against her.

So I was watching videos from this think tank, they were called the Foreign Policy Initiative, and I quickly learned maybe over 48 hour period, oh, the Foreign Policy Initiative is actually a re-branded, reopened version of the Project for The New American Century think tank, which was the most infamous neocon think tank that was behind the Iraq War. Once I realized that, then I just then I was obsessed with watching these videos. I watched probably every single video on their YouTube channel, and the majority of them were incredibly boring, very dry. And I was already in a depressed place, so, you know, it was kind of just putting me into this weird state where I was watching nothing but these dry foreign policy think tank videos for weeks on end.

Finally I got to Robert Kagan. And I was listening to him, and it struck me differently from the way that most other neoconservatives would talk, because I perceived him as being more candid about the way American foreign policy has actually conducted itself, and also more clever with the way that I perceived him as, re-branding, repackaging neocon rhetoric for the Obama era. Once I saw this, I became fascinated with his psychology. And I was already sort of fascinated with Bill Kristol's psychology, you know , going back to when I was a young man when I would watch Fox News you know during the Iraq War, I would watch Bill Kristol, and I found him fascinating back then because he seemed on a different level than most other, you know, war hawks that would go on Fox News.

But it was really Robert Kagan though that made me think, you know, his own words are so fascinating and so candid and so revealing without adding any editorial content that I wonder if this will work, if I present it just simply in his own words.

... ... ...

But I think one way to describe why they're so important and they're still so influential is because they managed to, a very small handful of them, maybe less than a dozen figures, managed to convince the rest of, what people describe as the DC blob, the sort of foreign policy consensus in DC overall, the neocons managed to rebrand themselves, massage their rhetoric, and make themselves seem less crazy in order to influence the larger DC foreign policy community into basically accepting and going along with almost all their foreign policy platforms, with the exception of overtly wanting to invade Iran which arguably that is the neocon prize but see, a lot of these smarter neocons like Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol, and a lot of these neocons who managed to convince the blob, they have hidden, and not been open about the fact that they want to overthrow the regime of Iran.

That's one of their foreign policy platforms they've sort of brushed under the rug, because that's one of The reason I'm giving that example is because that's how they have managed to cross the aisle, so to speak, in DC and put a hand out to the neoliberal think tanks and say, hey we're kind of on the same side in this, and we all think Putin's bad, and let's really go after him. Let's overthrow Assad. So these are things that the neocons managed to essentially convince and influence the rest of the DC foreign policy community to believe.

So yes, it's true that there are not that many actual literal neocons, but a lot of people now who are sort of anti-war, do work in anti-war or do foreign policy critique, they don't see much of a difference any more between sort of the neoliberal foreign policy group in DC, which is most of it, and the actual neocons anymore. Because they have essentially merged in a non-partisan fashion, and it's been very surreal to watch, especially after the 2016 election when you actually saw neocons saying well you should vote for Hillary. For the first time ever they all said that you shouldn't vote for a R epublican.

That's so I don't know that fully answers your question, but I think to su m it up it's because the neocons have influenced everybody. So now that they've been able to do that you don't really need that many of them around you know making that much trouble because everybody is carrying out their agenda essentially. In this DC foreign policy think-tank.

GR: Yeah I think the way you kind of describe it in maybe it's I don't know if you personally describe it, but I wrote it down in my notes about how neoconservatism is almost like a species and it kind of evolved over the last 20 years in a way? So I think what you're talking about how there's a shift to Hillary, and, but I mean that shift is more that the neoconservative line really became the mainstream line, whereas, you know, maybe in the early 2000s, like, there was a larger perception, yes, they were in the White House, but these people are also crazy, whereas now is kind of like the mainstream, which is quite scary. Which is something I think we'll talk about in a little bit. But kind of what I was talking about a bit before what I referenced was that I was a teenager when 9/11 happened, and it really shaped my generation and the world that I'm living in now

But as I was watching the 3-part documentary, there were several things that I was like kind of blown away by how these things kind of just went down the memory hole, and I want to talk about those things because several of these things I vaguely kind of remember now but for some odd reason I had totally forgotten about them, and they're not really within the wider narrative of 9/11 and the war on terror.

So the first one is that how right after 9/11, several of these neocons, I think it's Don and Fred Kagan, went on TV and radio kind of immediately after for at least a 24-hour 48-hour period after 9/11 and basically blamed Palestinians for the attack, and were basically outright calling for the U.S. to attack Palestine. And even saying that they had no evidence but we should just go and attack them. So could you talk about what happened there, and what was the effect there? Everyone kind of forgets about this but what happened there, and what do you think the effect of that was?

RM: You just opened up a really big can of worms with that question. Well, to fully answer that it would require a totally separate interview, but I'll do my best to answer it in this short time that we have. What you're describing is, what I would say, is the neocons flipping up and revealing too much of an early iteration of their script, than the rest of the consensus was ready to reveal or get on board with. And perhaps, even, they jumped ahead with something that the rest of the neocons already decided, we can't go there. Because, and this is important to know, that Don Kagan is one of the only three authors credited as writing Rebuilding America's Defenses, the infamous paper that PNAC released that says we need a new Pearl Harbor, a catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor.

Don Kagan is someone who just, mostly an obscure figure in this, but I'd like to believe that if he was saying that on the radio within 24 hours of 9/11, that it was something being heavily discussed within that community behind the scenes. And h e and his son Fred Kagan are two of the most intellectual, influential neoconservatives in DC. Fred Kagan is behind the Iraq surge, he is also behind the Afghanistan s urge for Obama, directly working under David Petraeus. So these are not just like random neocons. It's important to stress that they are some of the most influential neocon brain-trust type people in DC even though they're so relatively obscure They're not household names.

So to hear both of them saying that we need to clean out Palestine with the U.S. Delta Force raids and the full panoply of U.S. military tools and arsenal, it's a very shocking thing to hear. Even though I've long believed that neocons are some of the most evil people on the planet, that was even surprising for me to hear. That they went ahead and openly said that the U.S. military should do that, and actually, in their broadcast they make it clear that they don't even care who's behind 9/11. Which is strange. They say that if we run around tracing the actual perpetrators, we're just going to be wasting our time and we won't get anywhere. So what they are saying is that we should just go attack all these countries anyways because even if they're behind it or not, they hate us and want to kill us.

And Palestine was one of their primary targets to retaliate against in response to 9/11. Now that's very strange when you look at the day of 9/11, and I've actually done a podcast on this, I call it the Palestinian Frame-up, on 9/11, there were four separate incidences that were run throughout U.S. media throughout the day of 9/11 that were attempting to blame Palestinians for the attacks before Bin Laden became the primary culprit that the U.S. media latched on to. So I find that very strange.

And I'm not going to try to explain it here during this interview, but you can look into that. It's all documented. The news media played footage of Palestinians allegedly celebrating the attacks in the middle of a national emergency at 12 p.m. while thousands of people were still missing during the World Trade Center attacks. So this is the kind of stuff that U.S. media was doing.

So it's very interesting for me to see neocons actually piggy-backing on that and saying we should attack Palestine. And that's a rare thing, I think, to find neocons slipping up that badly. And I guess I find that clip particularly fascinating because it's really one of the only ones like that out there, and to my knowledge, I'm the first one to find it by combing through all these archives. I've never heard of it before, never even heard of any neocon s saying that before on record.

And then also something else interesting Don Kagan brings up in the recording, and maybe you were going to mention this next, but I'll just say it because it's so weird, as he says what would have happened, and keep in mind this is 9/12-01, one day after 9/11. He says, what would have happened if the terrorists had Anthrax on that plane?

GR: Right. Yeah.

RM: And on October 5, weaponized anthrax was sent through the U.S. mail. While the Bush Administration was already inoculated with Cipro. the antibiotic taken to prevent Anthrax infection. So there's a lot of interesting and very scary questions that are raised just by that single clip. and I'm to this day it's still a mystery to me.

GR: That was Part 1 of the Global Research News Hour special with Robbie Martin on his documentary series, A Very Heavy Agenda that explores the rise and continued influence of the neoconservatives. Part 2 will air next week where we will explore the anthrax attacks, the role of Vice in spreading U.S. propaganda. You can buy or stream A Very Heavy Agenda at averyheavyagenda.com. Music for this special provided by Fluorescent Grey, AKA Robbie Martin. For the Global Research News Hour, I'm Scott Price.

-end of transcript-

Global Research News Hour Summer 2018 Series Part 5

[Jul 23, 2018] US diplomats act like imperial governors riding roughshod over sovereignty of national governments by John Laughland

Notable quotes:
"... More shocking than Nuland's bad language, however, was what the conversation was about. The US government officials were discussing how to put their men into power in Ukraine - which of the three then opposition factions would dominate, who would take the lead (Arseniy Yatsenyuk) and who would be excluded (Vladimir Klitschko). At the time of this conversation, early February 2014, their enemy Viktor Yanukovych was still president. The leaked recording proved that the US and its Kiev embassy were actively involved in a regime change operation. The composition of the post-Maidan government corresponded exactly with US plans. ..."
"... What few people knew at the time was that such levels of control over the composition of foreign governments had become standard practice for US embassies all over the world. As I could see on my very numerous travels around the Balkans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the US ambassador was treated by the political class and the media in those countries not as the officially accredited representative of a foreign government but instead as an imperial governor whose pronunciamentos were more important than those of the national government. ..."
"... "As regards parallels between Nicaragua in 1989-90 and Belarus today, I plead guilty. Our objective and to some degree methodology are the same." ..."
"... "pseudo-Euroskeptic" ..."
"... " interference " ..."
"... "fifth columnists" ..."
"... "Euro-Atlantic structures" ..."
"... "It was all settled in no more time than it takes to set down." ..."
"... Like this story? Share it with a friend! ..."
Jul 19, 2018 | www.rt.com

Photo (omitted): Geoffrey R. Pyatt (L) and Samantha Power on Maidan square, in Kiev on June 10, 2015 © YURY KIRNICHNY / AFP

On the world's Grand Chessboard, the US is fighting for control and influence. And there are countries where its ambassadors are perceived more as imperial governors than simple channels of communication. At the height of the Maidan protests in Kiev in early 2014, a conversation was leaked between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the then-Assistant Secretary of State in the Obama administration, Victoria Nuland. The conversation gained notoriety because Nuland said to Pyatt, "F**k the EU" and the recording was almost instantly available on Youtube .

More shocking than Nuland's bad language, however, was what the conversation was about. The US government officials were discussing how to put their men into power in Ukraine - which of the three then opposition factions would dominate, who would take the lead (Arseniy Yatsenyuk) and who would be excluded (Vladimir Klitschko). At the time of this conversation, early February 2014, their enemy Viktor Yanukovych was still president. The leaked recording proved that the US and its Kiev embassy were actively involved in a regime change operation. The composition of the post-Maidan government corresponded exactly with US plans.

Read more American meddling is bad too, except when it isn't, says ex-ambassador to Russia

What few people knew at the time was that such levels of control over the composition of foreign governments had become standard practice for US embassies all over the world. As I could see on my very numerous travels around the Balkans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the US ambassador was treated by the political class and the media in those countries not as the officially accredited representative of a foreign government but instead as an imperial governor whose pronunciamentos were more important than those of the national government.

This has been going on for decades, although the levels of control exercised by the United States increased as it rushed to fill the political vacuum created by the collapse of Soviet influence in Eastern Europe after 1989. In earlier times, such control, especially regime change operations, had to be conducted either covertly, as with the overthrow of Iranian prime minister, Mohammad Mosaddegh, in 1953, or by financing and arming an anti-government militia, such as in Nicaragua and elsewhere in central and South America, or by encouraging the army itself, most famously in Chile in 1973. There is a huge body of literature on this vast subject (for the coup against Mosaddegh, see especially 'All the Shah's Men' by Stephen Kinzer, 2003) and there is no possibility of denying that such operations took place. Indeed, former CIA director, James Woolsey, recently admitted that they continue to this day.

Many of the ambassadors who engineered or attempted regime change operations in Eastern Europe and the former USSR had cut their teeth in Latin America in 1980s and 1990s. One of them, Michael Kozak, former US ambassador to Belarus, even boasted in a letter to The Guardian in 2001 that he was doing the same thing in Minsk as he had done in Managua. He wrote: "As regards parallels between Nicaragua in 1989-90 and Belarus today, I plead guilty. Our objective and to some degree methodology are the same."

Read more US fingerprints all over Nicaragua's bloody unrest

Kozak did not mention that he also played a key role in the overthrow of General Noriega in Panama in 1989 but he is far from alone. The experience accumulated by the Americans during the Cold War, including in major European countries like Italy where US interference was key to preventing Communist victories in elections, spawned a whole generation of Kermit Roosevelts (the architect of the coup against Mosaddegh) who have made their careers over decades in the State Department. Some names, such as that of Michael McFaul, former US ambassador to Russia who made no secret of his opposition to the president of the state to which he was accredited, will be familiar to RT readers.

Two years after the violent overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, which he helped coordinate, Geoffrey Pyatt was appointed US ambassador to Greece. He remains in that post to this day - which is why some are asking whether his hand might be behind last week's expulsion of Russian diplomats from Athens. Greece and Russia have customarily had good relations but they differ on the Macedonian issue. Now, the Greek government headed by the "pseudo-Euroskeptic" Alexis Tsipras, claims that four Russian diplomats were engaged in covert operations in Greece to lobby against forcing Macedonia to change its official name.

READ MORE: Macedonian MPs ratify Greece name deal again

Like almost every other political issue these days, this relatively arcane one is regarded through the distorting prism of alleged Russian " interference " : any decision which does not consolidate the power of American-dominated supranational structures like the US or the EU is now routinely attributed to all-pervasive Russian influence, as if all dissidents were foreign agents. Western discussion of this subject now resembles the paranoia of the old Soviet regime, and of its satellites in Eastern Europe, which similarly attacked anti-Communists for being "fifth columnists" - the very phrase used by a prominent European politician last month to lambast all his enemies as Russian stooges.

Europe has a fifth column in its ranks: Putin's cheerleaders who want to destroy Europe & liberal democracy from within: Le Pen, Wilders, Farage, Orbàn, Kaczynski, Salvini use Kremlin money & intel. Like Farage's friend Arron Banks, who colluded w/ Russians to deliver #Brexit

-- Guy Verhofstadt (@guyverhofstadt) 13 juin 2018

US influence is suspected in this case between Greece and Macedonia because the Americans are pushing to bring the whole of the Balkan peninsula under Western control. This has been policy for nearly thirty years - at least since the Yugoslav wars led to a US-brokered peace deal in Bosnia in 1995. In recent years the tempo has quickened, with the accession of Montenegro to NATO last year leaving only Macedonia and Serbia as missing pieces of the puzzle. The Greek victory over the name of Macedonia removes the last obstacle to that country's accession to NATO and other "Euro-Atlantic structures" like the EU and soon only Serbia will be left. Will she last long?

One of the most notorious anecdotes of the Second World War was told by Churchill. While in Moscow in 1944, he and Stalin divided up Eastern Europe and the Balkans into spheres of influence, putting percentage figures to show the respective weight of the West and the USSR - 10:90 in Greece, 50:50 Yugoslavia, 25:75 in Bulgaria, and so on. Churchill recalls how this so-called Percentages Agreement was concluded in a few minutes, and how he scribbled a note of their verbal agreement on a piece of paper which Stalin glanced at for a second and then ticked off. Churchill wrote, "It was all settled in no more time than it takes to set down."

Churchill then reflected that it might seem cynical to decide the fate of millions of people in such an offhand manner. Later generations have generally agreed with his self-criticism. Today's West would certainly never conclude such an agreement - but not because of any squeamishness or lack of cynicism on its part. Instead, the West, especially the US, could not conclude any agreement because in every case the only acceptable outcome would be 100% influence for itself. That is what Geoffrey Pyatt and his colleagues spend their entire careers trying to achieve - and, to a large extent, they succeed.

Like this story? Share it with a friend!

The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.

John Laughland, who has a doctorate in philosophy from the University of Oxford and who has taught at universities in Paris and Rome, is a historian and specialist in international affairs.

[Jul 20, 2018] US diplomats act like imperial governors riding roughshod over sovereignty of

Notable quotes:
"... pronunciamentos ..."
"... Reprinted with permission from RT . ..."
Jul 20, 2018 | ronpaulinstitute.org

national governments by John Laughland

July 19, 2018

On the world's Grand Chessboard, the US is fighting for control and influence. And there are countries where its ambassadors are perceived more as imperial governors than simple channels of communication.

At the height of the Maidan protests in Kiev in early 2014, a conversation was leaked between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the then-Assistant Secretary of State in the Obama administration, Victoria Nuland. The conversation gained notoriety because Nuland said to Pyatt, "F**k the EU" and the recording was almost instantly available on Youtube .

More shocking than Nuland's bad language, however, was what the conversation was about. The US government officials were discussing how to put their men into power in Ukraine - which of the three then opposition factions would dominate, who would take the lead (Arseniy Yatsenyuk) and who would be excluded (Vladimir Klitschko). At the time of this conversation, early February 2014, their enemy Viktor Yanukovych was still president. The leaked recording proved that the US and its Kiev embassy were actively involved in a regime change operation. The composition of the post-Maidan government corresponded exactly with US plans.

What few people knew at the time was that such levels of control over the composition of foreign governments had become standard practice for US embassies all over the world. As I could see on my very numerous travels around the Balkans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the US ambassador was treated by the political class and the media in those countries not as the officially accredited representative of a foreign government but instead as an imperial governor whose pronunciamentos were more important than those of the national government.

This has been going on for decades, although the levels of control exercised by the United States increased as it rushed to fill the political vacuum created by the collapse of Soviet influence in Eastern Europe after 1989. In earlier times, such control, especially regime change operations, had to be conducted either covertly, as with the overthrow of Iranian prime minister, Mohammad Mosaddegh, in 1953, or by financing and arming an anti-government militia, such as in Nicaragua and elsewhere in central and South America, or by encouraging the army itself, most famously in Chile in 1973. There is a huge body of literature on this vast subject (for the coup against Mosaddegh, see especially "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen Kinzer, 2003) and there is no possibility of denying that such operations took place. Indeed, former CIA director, James Woolsey, recently admitted that they continue to this day.

Many of the ambassadors who engineered or attempted regime change operations in Eastern Europe and the former USSR had cut their teeth in Latin America in 1980s and 1990s. One of them, Michael Kozak, former US ambassador to Belarus, even boasted in a letter to The Guardian in 2001 that he was doing the same thing in Minsk as he had done in Managua. He wrote: "As regards parallels between Nicaragua in 1989-90 and Belarus today, I plead guilty. Our objective and to some degree methodology are the same."

Kozak did not mention that he also played a key role in the overthrow of General Noriega in Panama in 1989 but he is far from alone. The experience accumulated by the Americans during the Cold War, including in major European countries like Italy where US interference was key to preventing Communist victories in elections, spawned a whole generation of Kermit Roosevelts (the architect of the coup against Mosaddegh) who have made their careers over decades in the State Department. Some names, such as that of Michael McFaul, former US ambassador to Russia who made no secret of his opposition to the president of the state to which he was accredited, will be familiar to RT readers.

Two years after the violent overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, which he helped coordinate, Geoffrey Pyatt was appointed US ambassador to Greece. He remains in that post to this day - which is why some are asking whether his hand might be behind last week's expulsion of Russian diplomats from Athens. Greece and Russia have customarily had good relations but they differ on the Macedonian issue. Now, the Greek government headed by the "pseudo-Euroskeptic" Alexis Tsipras, claims that four Russian diplomats were engaged in covert operations in Greece to lobby against forcing Macedonia to change its official name.
Like almost every other political issue these days, this relatively arcane one is regarded through the distorting prism of alleged Russian " interference ": any decision which does not consolidate the power of American-dominated supranational structures like the US or the EU is now routinely attributed to all-pervasive Russian influence, as if all dissidents were foreign agents. Western discussion of this subject now resembles the paranoia of the old Soviet regime, and of its satellites in Eastern Europe, which similarly attacked anti-Communists for being "fifth columnists" - the very phrase used by a prominent European politician last month to lambast all his enemies as Russian stooges.

US influence is suspected in this case between Greece and Macedonia because the Americans are pushing to bring the whole of the Balkan peninsula under Western control. This has been policy for nearly thirty years - at least since the Yugoslav wars led to a US-brokered peace deal in Bosnia in 1995. In recent years the tempo has quickened, with the accession of Montenegro to NATO last year leaving only Macedonia and Serbia as missing pieces of the puzzle. The Greek victory over the name of Macedonia removes the last obstacle to that country's accession to NATO and other "Euro-Atlantic structures" like the EU and soon only Serbia will be left. Will she last long?

One of the most notorious anecdotes of the Second World War was told by Churchill. While in Moscow in 1944, he and Stalin divided up Eastern Europe and the Balkans into spheres of influence, putting percentage figures to show the respective weight of the West and the USSR - 10:90 in Greece, 50:50 Yugoslavia, 25:75 in Bulgaria, and so on. Churchill recalls how this so-called Percentages Agreement was concluded in a few minutes, and how he scribbled a note of their verbal agreement on a piece of paper which Stalin glanced at for a second and then ticked off. Churchill wrote, "It was all settled in no more time than it takes to set down."

Churchill then reflected that it might seem cynical to decide the fate of millions of people in such an offhand manner. Later generations have generally agreed with his self-criticism. Today's West would certainly never conclude such an agreement - but not because of any squeamishness or lack of cynicism on its part. Instead, the West, especially the US, could not conclude any agreement because in every case the only acceptable outcome would be 100% influence for itself. That is what Geoffrey Pyatt and his colleagues spend their entire careers trying to achieve - and, to a large extent, they succeed.

Reprinted with permission from RT .

[Jul 18, 2018] Here is Rachel Maddow interviewing Victoria Nuland -- the architect of Euromaydan color revolution in Ukraine

Jul 18, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Joe Tedesky , July 14, 2018 at 10:00 pm

Here is Rachel Maddow interviewing Victoria Nuland . now they bring out the big guns.

https://www.sott.net/article/391038-Rachel-Maddow-taps-meddle-and-collusion-expert-Victoria-Nuland-for-tips-on-Trump-Putin-puppetry

Miranda Keefe , July 14, 2018 at 11:31 pm

Rachel is disgusting. She brings on the architect of a coup as an expert? Was she always a NeoCon and just upset with W. because he was not on the Blue Team?

[Jul 15, 2018] The US was trying to get EU to sanction Russia for some time. MH17 was what was required to push EU to sanction Russia.

Jul 15, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org

Peter AU 1 , Jul 14, 2018 9:26:21 PM | 120

Daniel.

Energy was a part of it, but I think MH17 was more to do with keeping Russia separated from Europe. Russia and Europe coming together according to the grand chessboard as something that must not be allowed to occur under any circumstance.

The US was trying to get EU to sanction Russia for some time. MH17 was what was required to push EU to sanction Russia. I have the timeline of events.
From the 17th we were swamped with propaganda, victims bodies left laying in the sun, nasty Russia not letting anyone to the site, bellingcrap tracking how the Russians brought the launcher in, ect ect.

This went on for two weeks, all this time US pushing EU to sanction Russia. Around the 29th-30th EU agreed to sanction Russia. On the 30th, the Ukrainian rada passed a law allowing the Australian and Dutch official teams to go to the site. On the night of the 30th, possibly on the 31st, before the official teams got to the site, the Ukies pushed an armored column up through Torez and into the crash zone. Sporadic fight occurred in and around the crash site from that time, until the Ukies were cleaned up at the Debaltseve cauldron. It was only then the the wreckage was lifted and carried away for reconstruction. For the last few months the Ukies had intermittently shelled the site from Debaltseve. No complaints to the Ukies from Australia nor Netherlands. It was all called Russian aggression.

Have read a bit of the Grand Chessboard now. The section titled Eurasia and also much of the conclusion section.

My takeaway at the moment is that was the era of Economic hegemony backed up by the export of US style democracy. Energy under that system was used if required to keep nations down, stop groups of nations forming together, basically prevent challenges to US economic hegemony. Wars were fought, countries destroyed to ensure the usage of the US dollar. Energy was just one of a number of tools used.

What I think the US is attempting for the coming era - Global energy dominance - is to simply squat on a major source of oil and hold much of Eurasia to ransom.
Doing it this way, the massive US military deployed throughout the world is no longer required, just small covert ops to sabotage competitors. Most of the old institutions needed to manage hegemony no longer required.

Daniel , Jul 14, 2018 8:20:45 PM | 113
Peter et al. I don't remember who posted the link to this wonderful article by KEES VAN DER PIJL Why Was Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down?


It is well worth the read, in general, and it directly discusses your Global Energy Dominance thesis. It also brings it up to date compared to my tracing it back to the 1990s, if not the 1940s.

"In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package' . effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it could enter the EU."

Obviously, this raised the price of Russian gas to European countries.

"Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic."

"As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy'."

And these sanctions were specifically aimed at the Russian energy industry.

"The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally."

So here we have a concerted program, from at least 2009, intended to reduce Russia's role in the Global Energy market, and set up US LNG to compete directly with the RF.

[Jul 12, 2018] Challenging Chait s Paradigm by Hunter DeRensis

Jul 12, 2018 | www.unz.com

But to not only ignore the February 2014 coup in Ukraine that initiated recent hostilities between the U.S. and Russia, but to also put the blame on the latter's "aggressive behavior," is at best laughable and at worst dishonest. In February of 2014 the democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup orchestrated by the United States government, an event Chait and his peers do their best to forget . Russia's subsequent annexation of the Crimean Peninsula (containing the Russian naval base at Sevastopol) was a wholly reactive measure. To say the recent estrangement was triggered by anything else than western aggressive behavior is factually inaccurate.

Quartermaster , July 12, 2018 at 12:48 pm GMT

But to not only ignore the February 2014 coup in Ukraine that initiated recent hostilities between the U.S. and Russia, but to also put the blame on the latter's "aggressive behavior," is at best laughable and at worst dishonest.

You lost me at that point. There was no coup in 2014. That's simply a Putinist lie. Yanukovich ran when he was going to be brought to book for the murders he ordered on the Maidan. He was interviewed last year and was completely evasive when it came to questions about the killings he ordered. He's now a fugitive from justice and was righteously removed from office when he ran for asylum in Russia.

It's long past time for idiots like yourself to get the facts and quit parroting Putin's lies.

hyperbola , Next New Comment July 12, 2018 at 6:21 pm GMT
@Quartermaster

Why I Quit the Democratic Party Yesterday

https://www.opednews.com/articles/Why-I-Quit-the-Democratic-by-Eric-Zuesse-Congress-Democrats_Congress-Republican-GOP_Democracy_Democrats-DNC-140815-725.html

I left the Democratic Party yesterday, because I cannot support the first American President who ever installed anywhere in the world a nazi regime -- it has never happened before, not even under a Republican President; and, until Obama, I had always assumed that if it ever would happen, it could come only under a Republican President, never under any Democratic one. But I was wrong -- mortifyingly wrong -- because Barack Obama did this in Ukraine (see here and here for the evidence); he is the first-ever U.S. President to install a nazi regime anywhere, and so I wrote to my Representative seeking Obama's impeachment by the Democrats in Congress; and, yesterday, that person, a Democratic member of the U.S. House of Representatives, told me that, notwithstanding Barack Obama's having unquestionably done this, this Democratic Representative will not introduce on the floor of the U.S. House (which is the only place where a bill of impeachment can be introduced) a bill of impeachment against this -- what is the appropriate term for such a person, if not a -- nazi U.S. President. (That's nazi as an ideology, racist fascist, not as a party designation, which is merely a party's name.) Simply because Obama calls himself a 'Democrat,' that Representative in the House will not introduce a bill to impeach him. There was no argument on the facts; the facts weren't at issue here at all; it's just that Obama calls himself a 'Democrat.' That's all ..

Ukraine's Pres. Poroshenko Says Overthrow of Yanukovych Was a Coup

http://washingtonsblog.com/2015/06/ukraines-pres-poroshenko-says-overthrow-of-yanukovych-was-a-coup.html

Participants in 2014 Ukrainian coup confess

http://washingtonsblog.com/2017/11/participants-2014-ukrainian-cup-confess.html

.. The Italian newspaper Il Giornale, and Italian Mediaset Matrix TV, Chanel 5, issued, on November 15th, confessions by a few of the snipers who on 20 February 2014 fired down into the crowd of "Maidan" demonstrators and police, in order "to sow chaos," as they say that they had been instructed to do.

The Georgian mercenary Alexander Revazishvilli said: "Everyone started shooting two or three shots at a time. It went on for fifteen, twenty minutes. We had no choice. We were ordered to shoot both on the police and the demonstrators, without any difference." This account is entirely consistent with the leaked phone-conversation on 26 February 2014 in which Urmas Paet, the investigator whom the EU had assigned to determine whom to blame for the snipers and their massive bloodshed during the overthrow, informed the EU's Foreign Affairs chief, Catherine Ashton, that the anti-Yanukovych, pro-U.S. and pro-EU side, were to blame, and that Paet had just been informed of this by Petro Poroshenko (who shortly thereafter became elected as Ukraine's figurehead President). Paet said: ..

Oliver Stone Exposes US Coup d'etat In Ukraine

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2018/01/17/oliver-stone-exposes-us-coup-detat-ukraine/

How and Why the US Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine

https://countercurrents.org/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/

[Jul 09, 2018] MH17 and Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

Jul 09, 2018 | www.unz.com

ALCvA , July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT

I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq.

In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

Kees van der Pijl , Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMT
@ALCvA

I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMT
" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "

The key sentence.
Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France.
This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.
Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.

It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda.
Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts.
One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'.
As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.

I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that suspect Ukraine is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.

But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ?
Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 6:51 am GMT
@ALCvA

In a Dutch talkshow the chairman of the Dutch airline pilots organisation Benno Baksteen mentioned casually that aboard MH370 there were two groups of Chinese technicians specialised in making planes invisible for radar.
Nowhere in the media this was picked up, Benno Baksteen never again was on tv, and, as far as I know, he's no longer chairman.
My theory on MH17: control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, this is possible since early 2001.
It was directed direction Antarctica, until is crashed, lack of fuel.
The second pilot tried to use his mobile phone to make contact, however, this is not possible, a passenger plane flies simply to fast, there was a connection, but before he could say anything the plane was too far away.
Also one of the Sept 11 problems.
So, following the old question 'who benefitted', it is clear for me who the suspect is.

Wizard of Oz , July 9, 2018 at 9:04 am GMT
@anon

Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/

showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

What happened to flight MH17?

Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

jilles dykstra , July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT
@Wizard of Oz

" DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. "
A weird compelling case.
They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it.
Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
I am not in the least convinced.
The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions.
About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

Tom Welsh , July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMT
"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"

That is extremely puzzling – indeed, inexplicable – if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.

As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).

The real object of the Western elites – as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media – is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances – they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.

That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.

Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising – it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.

FB , July 9, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT
Wow what a tremendous article from a bona fide scholar

I have not yet seen anywhere such an accurate and succinct overview of the geopolitical history of the post-1991 era anywhere

There is something that is not clear though the author mentions a 'land for gas' deal discussed by Putin and Merkel on the sidelines of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil

' Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine '

I have no idea what this actually means an 'economic rehabilitation plan for whom ? and what does 'normalization' of Crimea's status mean recognition of Crimea's rejoining the Russian Federation ?

I look forward to reading the author's book

[Jul 09, 2018] Why Was Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down, by Kees van der Pijl

Notable quotes:
"... Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17. ..."
"... Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. ..."
"... The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go. ..."
"... To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which 'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure. ..."
"... The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid. ..."
"... If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. ..."
"... Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later ..."
"... weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. ..."
"... Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. ..."
"... The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. ..."
"... 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' ..."
"... Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic. ..."
"... The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. ..."
"... Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure. ..."
"... cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse ..."
"... In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large. ..."
Jul 09, 2018 | www.unz.com

Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and paradoxically, given its possible involvement, Ukraine, presented its second progress report. Like the first report in September 2016, it took the form of a press conference, with video animations supporting the investigation's findings.

This time there was even less to report; the main conclusion was that elements from the Russian 53rd Buk missile brigade were the culprits, a claim already made by the London-based investigative group Bellingcat two years before.

In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?

The JIT press conference was immediately followed by a formal declaration on the part of the Dutch and Australian governments that held Russia responsible. However, JIT member Malaysia dissociated itself from the accusation, whilst Belgium has remained silent.

The obviously over-hasty conclusion, on the heels of the alleged Skripal nerve gas incident in Salisbury and the likewise contested Syrian government gas attack on jihadist positions in Douma, all point in the same direction: Putin's Russia must be kept under fire and there is no time to wait for a court verdict.

In my book Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War. Prism of Disaster (Manchester University Press), I have refrained from entering the slippery terrain of making claims about who pulled the trigger, intentionally or by accident, in the late afternoon of 17 July, or even which type of weapon was used. For the downing of the Malaysian plane has become part of a propaganda war that was already heating up prior to the catastrophe. Instead the book is about what we do know about the events surrounding it, in the preceding months, weeks, and days, indeed even on the day itself. Subsequent events have only underlined that it is this context that lends meaning to the tragedy.

Refocusing US Supremacy After the Soviet Collapse

Today, Western imperialism projects its global power, as far as capital is concerned, primarily from the perspective of speculative, financial asset investment. Long gone are the days of class and international compromise forced upon it after World War Two. Instead, the predatory instincts of dominant financial capital require forcibly opening up all states for commodification and exploitation. Given the global spread of product and commodity chains, the continued flow of profits to the West cannot be taken for granted as long as effective state sovereignty elsewhere persists. For the liberal, Anglophone heartland of capital, 'defence' is therefore not merely, or even primarily, a matter of upholding the territorial integrity of the states constituting it, but keeping open the arterial system of the global economy and maintaining the centrality of the West. Regime change is a logical corollary, and from this perspective we must view the coup in Ukraine in February 2014 and all ensuing events, including the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17.

Right from the Soviet collapse in 1991, the US global perspective was articulated in several new strategic doctrines. The first and perhaps foundational one is the Wolfowitz Doctrine, named after Paul Wolfowitz, undersecretary of defence in the Bush Sr. administration, who commissioned a Defence Planning Guidance for Fiscal 1994-'99 (DPG) of 1992. It proclaims the United States the world's sole superpower, which must remain ahead of all possible contenders in arms technology and never again accept military parity, as with the USSR during the Cold War. The newly self-confident European Union, too, was obliquely warned that the US alone would handle global policing.

Additional doctrines, specifying on which grounds armed US intervention might be undertaken and justified, added elements such as humanitarian intervention (a Carnegie Endowment report of 1992, Self-Determination in the New World Order ); it was applied in Yugoslavia and again in Libya. Next, the'War on Terror', originally floated at Israeli Likud/US Neocon conferences between 1979 and 1984, was revived after the collapse of the USSR as the 'Clash of Civilizations' by Cold War strategist Samuel Huntington; Afghanistan and Iraq stand as monuments of the application of this doctrine. Finally, Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard of 1997 specifically dealt with reorganising the former USSR, including Ukraine.

Through the different episodes, NATO was transformed into a global policing structure serving the interests of Atlantic capital. 'Out of area operations', unthinkable in the Yalta epoch, were first tried out against the Bosnian Serbs in the mid-1990s. The enlargement of the alliance into the former Soviet bloc, which began around that time too, was obviously motivated to prevent European departures from US tutelage, hence its bold forward surge. Already in 1994, Ukraine became the first former Soviet republic to join the Partnership for Peace, the newly created waiting room for NATO membership. To quell Russian concerns about the advancing West, the NATO-Russia Founding Act of 1997 laid down that no nuclear weapons and permanent troop deployments would take place in new member states. Yet Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, and Moldova not long afterwards joined a low-key organisation of former Soviet republics (after the initials, GUAM), another oblique link up with NATO.

Mobilising Georgia and Ukraine against Resurgent Russia

Russia under Yeltsin had effectively surrendered its sovereignty to transnational capital and the West and as a result was left a social and economic disaster zone. Under his successor, Vladimir Putin, the country began to mutate back to a society led by a directive state, assisted by rising oil prices. After the United States unilaterally withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002 and announced a missile defence system deployed in the CzechRepublic, Poland, and Rumania, Russia shifted to a more robust international position. The Anglo-American invasion of Iraq on a false pretext made abundantly clear that the West was abandoning the rules of the post-war international order. 'Democracy promotion' intended to prevent national sovereignty from being mobilised against Western global governance, was now made a priority. The 'Rose Revolution' in Georgia in 2003 and the 'Orange Revolution' a year later in Ukraine, marked the lengths to which the United States was willing to go.

Yet even a colour revolution means little if there is no accompanying make-over of the fundamental state/society relation. Hence, the incoming policy planning director at the US State Department, Stanford professor Stephen Krasner, and Carlos Pascual, former US ambassador in Kiev, developed a comprehensive regime change doctrine in 2004. This would prove a key element in the subsequent Ukraine intervention. To ensure that countries incorporated into the US-NATO sphere of influence, really became neoliberal client states, Pascual and Krasner devised a strategy for preventive intervention with a rulebook listing the measures by which 'market democracy' was to be established. Ukraine was a key target and battleground, because by now, Russia was beginning to contest Western forward pressure.

At the Munich Security Conference in January 2007, Putin reminded his audience of the promises made to Gorbachev in 1991 not to expand the Atlantic alliance and warned that further attempts at enlargement (the Baltic states having been included in 2004) would imply great risks. Yet NATO and the EU were inexorably pressing forward. At the Bucharest NATO summit in April 2008 the Americans made the offer of NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, only to have the offer vetoed by Germany and France. Possibly to force the issue, the pro-Western president brought to power by the Rose Revolution in Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, armed and encouraged by the US and Israel, later that year embarked on a military adventure to recapture the breakaway province of South Ossetia. It ended in a complete debacle, as a Russian army stood ready in North Ossetia to deal the invaders a major, if very costly, blow. This, then, was what Richard Sakwa calls, 'the war to stop NATO enlargement'. From now on, every post-Soviet republic tempted to join the Atlantic alliance would have to reckon with Russian protection for groups resisting such integration, irrespective of whether it concerned actual Russians or any other of the almost two hundred nationalities of the former USSR.

The EU-Russian Energy Equation and Ukraine

The gas from Russia that feeds Europe today was discovered back in the 1960s; the Friendship oil pipeline was built in 1964 and the Soyuz, Urengoi and Yamal pipelines followed after West Germany started purchasing Soviet gas. The link-up culminated in 1980 with the contract for a gas pipeline from Urengoi in north Siberia to Bavaria, signed by a heavy-industry consortium headed by Deutsche Bank.

After the collapse of the USSR, Russian gas had to pass through the pipeline grid of independent Ukraine, which in the meantime had become the prey of rival clans of oligarchs. For most of them, gas was the key source of rapid enrichment -- directly, as in the case of subsequent prime minister Yuliya Timoshenko, 'the Gas Princess', or indirectly, by supplying steel pipes for gas transport, as in the case of president Leonid Kuchma's son-in-law, Victor Pinchuk, the 'Pipeline King'. The economic mismanagement and infighting of the different oligarchic clans in Ukraine led to payment arrears and repeated shutdowns of the gas supply from Russia, and Gazprom, the state-owned Russian gas company, early on began to look for ways to bypass the Ukrainian grid.

After Putin had come to power, he disciplined the Russian oligarchs as part of the restoration of state sovereignty. Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the energy oligarch and richest of all Russian billionaires at the time, at the time was buying support in the Duma to build a trans-Siberian pipeline to China; whilst negotiating with ExxonMobil and Chevron about US participation in his Yukos concern, which he planned to merge with Sibneft into the world's largest oil company. In 2005 he was convicted to a long prison sentence. Yukos was brought back into the Russian patrimony via a proxy construction involving state-owned Rosneft and Gazprom, as part of broader subordination of the economy to the state.

Gazprom meanwhile began building alliances to avoid future disruption of supplies via Ukraine and secure its European market. In 2005 it agreed with the outgoing government of Gerhard Schröder to build a pipeline across the Baltic directly to Germany, 'Nord Stream', with a consortium of German companies. Schröder was made the chairman of the board of the joint venture, Achimgaz, and two years later, a South Stream pipeline across the Black Sea to Bulgaria was contracted with ENI of Italy. It was to be extended into south-eastern Europe as far as Austria. In this way Gazprom and the Russian state were outmanoeuvring various EU projects for pipelines aimed at by-passing Russia. Indeed it was the EU's plan to use a Nabucco pipeline across Turkey to connect to the Caspian energy reserves that prompted the $40 billion South Stream project. Romano Prodi, prime minister of Italy, who first discussed South Stream with Putin in late 2006, was offered the chairmanship, which he declined, perhaps in the knowledge the project would become highly contested.

The Eurasian connection by now posed a direct threat to the cohesion of the enlarged Atlantic bloc. Besides Nord Stream and South Stream, Gazprom's collaboration with NIOC of Iran and a joint venture with ENI in Libya set all alarm bells ringing in Washington. Already in May 2006, a few months after the gas shutdown to Ukraine, the US Senate unanimously adopted a resolution calling on NATO to protect the energy security of its members and have it develop a diversification strategy away from Russia. Senator Richard Lugar in a much-noted speech prior to the NATO summit in Riga, Latvia, in November 2006, argued in favour of designating the manipulation of the energy supply as a 'weapon' that can activate Article 5 of the NATO treaty (common defence).

In a report to the European Parliament in 2008, the director of the EurasianPolicyCenter of the Hudson Institute in the US recommended that the EU should assist in liberalising and modernising the Ukrainian grid instead of supporting South Stream. Tension in the Black Sea area, her report noted candidly, might serve the purpose of blocking that pipeline altogether. However, after the 2010 election of president Victor Yanukovych, the front man of the powerful eastern and southern oligarchs, the lease of Russia's Crimean naval base at Sebastopol, home of its Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, so the prospects for stirring up unrest there were mitigated by Moscow's enduring naval preponderance.

Regime Change in Kiev

One aspect of the resurgence of a sovereign Russia was the plan for a Eurasian economic union to rebuild relations with former Soviet republics (Ukraine obtained observer status early on). The EU's Eastern Partnership was a direct response. It was offered to former Soviet republics in 2008, in a gesture that signalled that Europe now effectively acted as a subcontractor to the larger anti-Russian design drafted in Washington. Concretely, the EU offered Ukraine and other former Soviet republics an Association Agreement that also included provisions for the country's alignment on NATO security policy, besides a neoliberal make-over in the spirit of the Krasner-Pascual doctrine. The envisaged reforms would be devastating for the country's existing power structure, not least for the Donbass oligarchs whose front man was Yanukovych. Their heavy industry assets would be swept away by EU competition, the country turned into an agricultural supplier, and Russian gas cut off.

Hence, when both the EU and Russia sought to win over Yanukovych to join their respective blocs and Brussels ruled out the triangular arrangement by which the Ukrainian president had hoped to postpone the choice, he could not but step back from signing the EU Association Agreement in November 2013 and accept a Russian counteroffer. By then, 'Europe' had become a code word for an end to oligarchic rapaciousness, in which Yanukovych and his sons had become involved as well. The president's decision triggered mass demonstrations and occupations, which this time included an armed insurrection by Ukrainian ultra-nationalists in the historically anti-Russian west of the country. It created the space for actual fascists to hijack the protests and prepare a coup. By their use of deadly force at the Maidan central square (ascribed by the coup plotters and in the West to the riot police), the Ukrainian ultras demonstrated they were ready to kill their own compatriots to achieve their aims.

To prevent the situation from getting out of hand completely, the foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland flew to Kiev on 20 February 2014. However, whilst they negotiated a deal with Yanukovych and the opposition, the US and other NATO ambassadors met with Andriy Parubiy, the co-founder of the fascist party of Ukraine and former head of its militia, Patriot of Ukraine . Parubiy, today the speaker of the Kiev parliament, was in command of the armed gangs at the Maidan; two days later these took power in the capital, installing a government of Ukrainian nationalist stripe, selected by US diplomats. Parubiy was appointed secretary of the National Security and Defence Council (NSDC), a key post overseeing all military and intelligence operations, which he continued to hold until three weeks after the downing of MH17. With the Russian-Ukrainian half of the country effectively disenfranchised, the coup was responded to by the secession of Crimea and an armed insurrection in the Donbass. Stirrings of revolt in Odessa and Mariupol would be suppressed with deadly violence, in which Parubiy and other far right figures were directly involved.

Confronting the BRICS in Ukraine

From late March onwards the war party in the United States and NATO began to elaborate a strategy that would make Ukraine the testing ground for a trial of strength with Russia and China. The secession of Crimea and its re-incorporation into the Russian Federation was exploited to evoke the spectre of an impending Russian invasion on several fronts. General Philip Breedlove, commander of US Eucom (European Command, one of nine regional US military commands spanning the globe) and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Saceur), coordinated the Western position with General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Saceur at the time of the Yugoslavia wars. Clark was already advising Kiev forces in eastern Ukraine before the Donbass had actually risen in revolt. On 12April he asked Breedlove whether the NATO commander could not arrange a statement blaming Moscow for the violence because ' if the Ukrainians lose control of the narrative , the Russians will see it as an open door'. Clark then elaborated on the general geopolitical situation, giving further insights into why the war party in the US believed that Ukraine was to be 'held' and chosen as a battle ground to confront Russia and China. No time was wasted on market democracy here. Claiming that 'Putin has read US inaction in Georgia and Syria as US "weakness",' Clark went on to explain that

China is watching closely. China will have four aircraft carriers and airspace dominance in the Western Pacific within 5 years, if current trends continue. And if we let Ukraine slide away, it definitely raises the risks of conflict in the Pacific. For, China will ask, would the US then assert itself for Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, the South China Sea? If Russia takes Ukraine, Belarus will join the Eurasian Union, and, presto, the Soviet Union (in another name) will be back. Neither the Baltics nor the Balkans will easily resist the political disruptions empowered by a resurgent Russia. And what good is a NATO "security guarantee" against internal subversion? And then the US will face a much stronger Russia, a crumbling NATO, and [a] major challenge in the Western Pacific. Far easier to [hold] the line now, in Ukraine than elsewhere, later .

On the weekend of 13 to 14 April, CIA Director John Brennan was in the Ukrainian capital. The Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO, so called because the use of military force within the country is only warranted under that label) began right after Brennan's visit; Parubiy sent out a Twitter message on the 15th that veterans of the Maidan uprising were poised to join the fight. Since NATO had earlier implored Yanukovych not to use force against (armed) demonstrators, Moscow now asked the alliance to restrain the coup leaders in turn. But according to foreign minister Lavrov, the answer they got was that 'NATO would ask them to use force proportionately'.

In fact even the oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, elected president on 25 May 2014 to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the coup regime, proved unable to restrain the hardliners. On 30 June, following a four-hour NSDC meeting with Parubiy, interior minister Avakov, and others whose armed followers were demonstrating outside, Poroshenko declared that the ceasefire would be lifted and a new offensive launched. Three days later NATO naval manoeuvres in the Black Sea commenced with US participation and with electronic warfare a key component. On the ground, Kiev's forces made rapid progress, apparently drawing a ring around the large rebel city of Donetsk. NATO had its own concerns: an upcoming summit in Wales in September was expected to capitalise on the trope of a 'Russian invasion', vital after the Afghanistan debacle, and dovetailing with the emerging contest with the BRICS bloc.

The BRICS, coined first as a banker's gimmick, were never more than a loose collection of '(re-) emerging economies', but from Washington's perspective, sovereign entities not submitting to neoliberal global governance are unacceptable. So when on 16 July, the BRICS heads of state, hosted by the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff (removed by a rightwing conspiracy in May 2016), signed the statute establishing a New Development Bank, or BRICS bank, as a direct challenge to the US and Western-dominated World Bank and IMF, the US imposed new sanctions on Russia over Ukraine, specifically targeting the energy link with the EU. The creation of an equivalent of the World Bank with a capital of $100 billion with a reserve currency pool of the same size (an equivalent of the IMF), laid the groundwork of a contender pole in the global political economy challenging the West's austerity regime frontally -- or so it seemed at the time.

Still in Brazil before flying back to Moscow, Russian president Putin on the fringes of the football world cup finals also agreed with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to pursue a comprehensive Land for gas deal. Its tentative provisions included normalising the status of Crimea in exchange for a massive economic rehabilitation plan and a gas price rebate for Ukraine. However, a special European Council meeting convened on the 16th could not reach agreement on whether the EU should follow the American lead this time, since countries with export interests to Russia and dependent on its gas, were balking. Instead, the Council stressed the EU's commitment 'to pursue trilateral talks on the conditions of gas supply from the Russian Federation to Ukraine' in order to 'safeguard the security of supply and transit of natural gas through Ukraine.'

The Downing of Flight MH17 and South Stream

The downing of MH17 on 17 July changed all that. As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive. The official reports by the Dutch Safety Board and the JIT may be conveniently dismissed although the DSB rightly pointed at the questionable decision by Kiev to allow civilian planes to fly over a war zone. However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum.

Former secretary of state and then-presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton in a TV interview on the 18th called for making 'Russia pay the price' once its culpability had been established. Her to-do list for the EU included, one, 'toughen sanctions'; two, find alternatives to Gazprom, and third, 'do more in concert with us to support the Ukrainians'. The 'Land for gas' negotiations were shelved and on the 22nd Europe dropped the remaining hesitations when it underwrote the US sanctions targeting Russia's role as an energy supplier. As Mark Leonard, founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, noted in a newspaper interview a year later, 'without MH17 it would have been pretty difficult to find sufficient support for the increased sanctions on the Russian economy' .

In 2009 the EU had introduced a new energy policy, dubbed a 'Third Energy Package'. It does not permit gas to be transported to the EU by the company producing it, effectively forcing Gazprom to sell even the gas piped through the Ukrainian grid to other companies before it could enter the EU. Nord Stream had still been exempted from EU competition rules, but the projected South Stream was not, never mind that most contracts with Gazprom had been signed before the Third Energy Package came into force. Even at the time of the Kiev coup, commentators wondered to what extent shale gas from the US might be used to offset Russian deliveries. LNG facilities planned in Florida and Maryland were projected to serve the European market at Gazprom's expense, a prospect meanwhile far more realistic.

The Crimean secession and incorporation into the Russian Federation obviously played its own role here. Crimea is a historically Russian region; having been assigned to Ukraine by a whim of Soviet party leader Khrushchev in 1954, it never reconciled itself to being part of an independent Ukraine. After the nationalist coup in late February, the status of the Russian naval base in Sebastopol was in the balance. In 1991, the Black Sea had been a Soviet/bloc inland sea, with one NATO country (Turkey) bordering it. Now there were two more NATO/EU countries and two pro-Western, aspiring NATO members on its littoral. So when one week after the coup, three former Ukrainian Presidents, Kravchuk, Kuchma, and Yushchenko, called on the coup government in Kiev to cancel the agreement under which the lease of Sebastopol, home to the Russian Black Sea fleet, had been extended to 2042, the question of who would be able to project naval power over the Black Sea became acute. The question now was whether Russia would be able to provide cover for a large-scale project such as South Stream, or not.

South Stream itself came into the firing line directly. The European Parliament, which never raised the issue of why the February agreement with Yanukovych the EU brokered had been sidelined by the coup, on 17 April 2014 adopted a non-binding resolution opposing the South Stream gas pipeline and recommended a search for alternative sources of gas. On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, the CEO of Rosneft, the Russian state oil company, as well as Gennady Timchenko, whose Volga Group controls Stroytransgaz, the company entrusted with building the Bulgarian section of South Stream. Nevertheless the Bulgarian parliament approved South Stream two weeks after the reincorporation of Crimea, circumventing the EU's anti-trust legislation by renaming the pipeline a 'sea-land connection'.The European Commission then instructed Bulgaria to stop work on South Stream and proceeded to cut off tens of millions of much-needed regional development funds, whilst the US ambassador warned Bulgarian companies against working with Timchenko. A final visit of US Senators John McCain and Ron Johnson, in combination with other punitive measures then led to the cancellation in early June. As Eric Draitser commented at the time, 'South Stream has become one of the primary battlegrounds in the economic war that the West is waging against Russia'.

The downing of Flight MH17 also definitively sealed the fate of South Stream. Russian banks financing the project, led by Gazprombank, were hit by new sanctions, so that the necessary capital could no longer be raised internationally. Putin earlier had hinted at moving the transit of gas for the EU to non-European countries; in August, it was reported there was a Plan B in the works to export via Turkey. On 1 December 2014, during a state visit to Ankara, the Russian president announced that in light of Western sanctions and the refusal of construction permits in the EU, South Stream would be replaced by a 'Turkish Stream' pipeline, besides the existing Blue Stream link. However, in November 2015, a Turkish F-16 shot down a Russian fighter jet over northern Syria, throwing relations between Moscow and Ankara into a deep crisis and entailing the cancellation of Turkish Stream. This was only overcome after the July 2016 coup attempt against Erdoğan, in which Russia sided with the Turkish president, possibly even warning him in advance. Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure.

Regime Change in Moscow?

The MH17 disaster occurred in the context of a deep crisis, in which capitalist discipline as imposed from its historic epicentre in the West, has become primarily predatory, relying to an ever-greater extent on violence.

Speculative financial operations in combination with the 'War on Terror' have spread economic risk and repression at home, war and regime change abroad. Human survival itself has been turned into a global gamble played out over the head of the affected populations for private gain.

The West, led by the effectively bankrupt United States, increasingly relies on force to sabotage the formation of any alternative, something its own social formation can no longer bring forth. Even the most promising, potentially revolutionary IT and media developments coming out of Silicon Valley have been mortgaged by a planetary project of communications surveillance to safeguard US imperial positions.

Back in the 1980s, when it launched the second Cold War, the Reagan administration intended to destabilise the Soviet bloc and bring about regime change in Moscow. This is also the aim of the current, new Cold War. A 2015 Chatham House report, 'The Russian Challenge', discusses this in some detail. Although it concedes that the West cannot have an interest in Russia sliding into complete anarchy, neither should the Putin presidency be protected 'against change, whether managed or violent '. Therefore, 'whether Putin was ousted by an internal coup, by illness or by popular unrest , it would nevertheless be sensible for the West to give further thought to how it might deal with the consequences of regime change in Russia.'

Effective communication with the Russian people and the defence of human values beforehand would be essential for Western credibility Planning for the future ought, lastly, to cover the scenarios from changes of leadership within the current structures, to the emergence of a group ready to pursue structural reform in some sort of accountable dialogue with the Russian population, to regime collapse .

The president of the National Endowment for Democracy, Carl Gershman, in a piece for the Washington Post in October 2016 suggested launching a new, sustained anti-Putin campaign, for which the contract killing of the journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, ten years earlier, might be used as a vignette.

For such a campaign, George Soros' Open Society Foundation can be trusted to have elaborated the 'civil society'/colour revolution scenarios, whilst identifying the groups that might be mobilised for their execution. The OSF plan of action for 2014-17, titled Russia Project Strategy , identifies Russian intellectuals active in Western academic and opinion networks, the Russian gay movement, and others as potential levers for civil society protest against the conservative bloc in power in Moscow. From the OSF documents hacked by the CyberBerkut collective, Alexei Navalny's Anti-Corruption Foundation emerges as the key beneficiary, and discussion portals and liberal media such as Echo of Moscow radio station, RBK news agency, and the newspaper Vedomosti, as the preferred channels to disseminate content.

There is no need to repeat that all this is part a powerful offensive to derail the loose contender bloc around China and Russia, which had constituted itself in the face of Western aggressiveness and crisis. The seizure of power in Ukraine as well as the secession of Crimea and the civil war in the east, which has meanwhile cost the lives of more than 13,000 people and displaced a million, as well as economic warfare against Russia by the US and the EU, have brought the danger of a large European war several steps closer. Whether the actual downing of Flight MH17 was an intentional, premeditated act or an accident, whether it involved a jet attack, an anti-aircraft missile, or both, ultimately cannot be established with certainty. Yet both the NATO war party and the coup regime in Kiev, which on many occasions has demonstrated that its ultra-nationalist and fascist antecedents are very much alive, would have been perfectly capable of such an act and had the means for it. Most importantly, they had the motive. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention. If this indeed was their aim, it would also have served the Atlantic bloc's determined and long-standing commitment to force continental Europe into an antagonistic relation with Russia.

In the current global conjuncture, even the tentative contender coalition combining the Eurasian Union, the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, constitutes an acute danger to a capitalist West in crisis. Whether the United States and NATO would therefore also be willing to take even greater risks than they are doing now is a prospect too frightening to contemplate. However, it must be confronted, or the fate of the 298 people on Flight MH17 may become that of humanity at large.

Kees van der Pijl is a Fellow, Centre for Global Political Economy and Professor Emeritus of the School of Global Studies at the University of Sussex.

[Jul 06, 2018] The most stunning aspect of the banderite putsch in Kiev was the dead silence of nazi-hunters from Wiesenthal Center, the always oh-so-sensitive ADL, the main of 52 (fifty-two!) American Jewish organizations, and the overall docility and compliance of the "righteous" Israel with the banderite-neo-Nazi ideology by Kagans-selected power structures in Ukraine

EuroMaydan was a plot to cut Ukraine from Russia and as such it was very successful. Probably one on the most important geopolitical victories of Obama administration. Victoria Nuland was the architect of this geopolitical victory.
As for Ukrainian people, in view of globalists they does not matter much. Moreover concerting Ukraine into debt slave was probably a part of the plan. cinical but effective and well executed plan.
Notable quotes:
"... Not the first time either they used Nazis as their lackeys. Aside from the several Nazi helpers after the war, that they pardoned because they promised to help the USA instead, they also used them for what they do best in Gladio. ..."
Jul 06, 2018 | consortiumnews.com
Francis Lee , July 6, 2018 at 5:49 am

Ukraine: Fascism's toe-hold in Europe.

The tacit support given by the centre-left to the installation of the regime in Kiev should give them cause for concern.

Politics in the Ukraine can only be understood by reference to its history and ethnic and cultural make-up -- a make-up criss-crossed by lasting and entrenched ethnic, cultural and political differences. The country has long been split into the northern and western Ukraine, where Ukrainian is the official and everyday lingua franca, and the more industrialised regions of the east and south where a mixture of Russian speaking Ukrainians and ethnic Russians reside. Additionally, there has long been Hungarian and Romanian settlement in the west of the country, and a particularly important Polish presence, whose unofficial capital, Lviv, was once the Polish city of Lwow. The Russian Orthodox Church is the predominant form of Christianity in the East, whilst in the west the Christian tradition tends towards Roman Catholicism.

Politically the Eastern and Southern Oblasts (Regions) which includes the cities and centres of heavy industry, Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk, Zaporozhe, Nikolayev, Kherson, Simferopol and Odessa, have tended to tilt towards Russia whilst the western regions have had a more western orientation. This has traditionally been reflected in the electoral division of the country. There is no party which can be considered 'national' in this respect, except ironically, the old Communist party, which of course is now banned. The major regional parties have been the Fatherland party of Yulia Tymoshenko (since renamed) and the former head of government, Arseniy Yatsenyuk as well as the ultra-nationalists predominantly in the west of the country, and the deposed Victor Yanukovich's Party of the Regions in the East (now defunct) along with its junior partner in the coalition, the Ukrainian Communist Party.
However, what is new since the coup in February 2014 there has been the emergence from the shadows of ultra-nationalist (fascist) parties and movements, with both parliamentary and extra-parliamentary (i.e.,military) wings. In the main 'Svoboda' or Freedom Party, and the paramilitaries of 'Right Sector' (Fuhrer: Dimitry Yarosh) who spearheaded the coup in Kiev; these have been joined or changed their names to inter alia the Radical Party, and Patriots of the Ukraine; this in addition to the punitive right-wing militias, such as the Azov Regiment responsible for numerous atrocities in the Don Bas.

Suffice it to say, however, that these political movements and parties did not emerge from nowhere.

This far-right tradition has been historically very strong in the western Ukraine. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was first established in 1929 and brought together, war veterans, student fraternities, far-right groups and various other disoriented socially and political flotsam and jetsam under its banner. The OUN took its ideological position from the writings of one, Dymtro Dontsov, who, like Mussolini had been a socialist, and who was instrumental in creating an indigenous Ukrainian fascism based upon the usual mish-mash of writings and theories including Friedrich Nietzsche, Georges Sorel, and Charles Maurras. Dontsov also translated the works of Hitler and Mussolini into Ukrainian.

The OUN was committed to ethnic purity, and relied on violence, assassination and terrorism, not least against other Ukrainians, to achieve its goal of a totalitarian and homogeneous nation-state. Assorted enemies and impediments to this goal were Communists, Russians, Poles, and of course -- Jews. Strongly oriented toward the Axis powers OUN founder Evhen Konovalets (1891-1938) stated that his movement was ''waging war against mixed marriages'', with Poles, Russians and Jews, the latter which he described as ''foes of our national rebirth''. Indeed, rabid anti-Semitism has been a leitmotif in the history of Ukrainian fascism, which we will return to below.

Konovelts himself was assassinated by a KGB hit-man in 1938 after which the movement split into two wings: (OUN-m) under Andrii Melnyk and, more importantly for our purposes (OUN-b) under Stepan Bandera. Both wings committed to a new fascist Europe. Upon the German invasion in June 1941, the OUN-b attempted to establish a Ukrainian satellite state loyal to Nazi Germany. Stepan Lenkavs'kyi the then chief propagandist of the OUN-b 'government' advocated the physical destruction of Ukrainian Jewry. OUN-b's 'Prime Minister' Yaroslav Stets'ko, and deputy to Bandera supported, ''the destruction of the Jews and the expedience of bringing German methods of exterminating Jewry to Ukraine, barring their assimilation and the like.''

During the early days of the rapid German advance into the Soviet Union there were some 140 pogroms in the western Ukraine claiming the lives of between 13000-35000 people (Untermensch, in fascist terminology). In 1943-1944 OUN-b and its armed wing the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Ukrainska povstanska armia -- UPA) carried out large scale ethnic cleansing resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands; this was a particularly gruesome affair in Volhynia where some 90000 Poles and thousands of Jews were murdered. The campaign of the UPA continued well into the 1950s until it was virtually wiped out by the Soviet forces.

It should be said that during this early period Bandera himself had been incarcerated by the German authorities up until his release in 1944, since unlike Bandera they were not enamoured of an independent Ukrainian state but wanted total control. Bandera was only released at this late date since the German high command was endeavouring to build up a pro-German Ukrainian quisling military force to hold up the remorseless advance of the Red Army. Also pursuant to this it is also worth noting that during this period the 14th Galizian Waffen SS Division, a military Ukrainian collaborationist formation established by Heinrich Himmler, was formed to fight the Soviet forces, and yet another being the Nachtingal brigade; (1) this unit was integrated into the 14th Galizian in due course. It is also interesting to note, that every year, and up to 2014 commemoration ceremony including veterans of this unit takes place with a march through Lviv in an evening torchlight parade -- genuine Nazi pastiche. The flag of this unit is not dissimilar to the Peugeot logo, the standing lion, and can be seen at ultra-nationalist rallies as well as football matches involving Lviv Karparti FC. There are also numerous statues of Bandera across Ukraine, and since the 2014 coup even street names bearing the same name. Significantly the UPA have now received political rehabilitation from the Kiev Junta, with Bandera declared a hero of the Ukraine and the UPA rebranded as 'freedom fighters.' One particularly splendid statue of Bandera stands proudly in Lviv and is usually adorned with flowers.

Other novel attractions the capital of Banderestan include 'Jewish themed restaurants' one such is Kryivka (Hideout or Lurking Hole) where guests have a choice of dishes and whose dinning walls are decorated with larger than life portraits of Bandera, the toilet with Russian and Jewish anecdotes. At another Jewish themed restaurant guests are offered black hats of the sort worn by Hasidim. The menu lists no prices for the dishes; instead, one is required to haggle over highly inflated prices ''in the Jewish fashion''. Yes, it's all good clean fun in Lviv. Anti-Semitism also sells. Out of 19 book vendors on the streets of central Lviv, 16 were openly selling anti-Semitic literature. About 70% of the anti-Semitic publications in Ukraine are being published by and educational institution called MUAP (The Inter-Regional Academy of Personnel Management). MAUP is a large, well-connected and increasingly powerful organization funded from outside anti-Semite sources, and also connected to White Supremacist groups in the USA and to the David Duke, former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

(It is one of the ironies of history that if the Zionists in AIPAC and the Washington neo-con think tanks, and the Labour Party Friends of Israel, were so concerned about anti-Semitism, they might try looking for it in Lviv. They wouldn't have to search very far.)
Present day neo-Nazi groupings in Ukraine -- Svoboda (Freedom) party and Right Sector -- have been the direct descendants from the prior ideological cesspool. Heading Svoboda is Oleh Tyahnybok. Although these are separate organizations Tyahnybok's deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is the main link between Svoboda's official wing and neo-Nazi militias like Right Sector. The Social-Nationalist party as it was formerly known chose as its logo an amended version of the Wolfsangel, a symbol used by many SS divisions on the Eastern front during the war who in 2004 a celebration of the OUN-UPA, stated in 2004, that ''they fought against the Muscovite, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state.'' And further that ''Ukraine was ruled by a Muscovite-Jewish mafia.'' Tyahnybok came under pressure from the then President, Yuschenko, to retract his inflammatory statements, which he did, but he then retracted the retraction!

Given the fact that Svoboda was, apart from its stamping grounds in the west, making little national electoral headway, it was essential to clean up its image and deny its Nazi past. But this was always going to be difficult since the members of such groups cannot help the unscripted outbursts and faux pas which they tend to make and which reveals their true colours. For example, following the conviction and sentencing of John Demjanjuk to five years in jail for his role as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at the Sobibor death camp, Tyahnybok travelled to Germany and met up with Demjanjuk's lawyer, presenting the death camp guard as a hero, a victim of persecution ''who is fighting for truth''.

And so it goes on. We can therefore infer that this organization is inveterate fascist. More disturbing Svoboda has links with the so-called Alliance of National European Movements, which includes: Nationaldemokraterna of Sweden, Front Nationale of France, Fiamma Tricolore in Italy, the Hungarian Jobbik and the Belgian National Front. More importantly Svoboda held several ministerial portfolios in the Kiev administration, and Right Sector swaggers around Kiev streets with impunity, and/or are being drafted into a National Guard to deal with the separatist movements in the east, or to beat down anyone who doesn't conform to their Ayran racial and political ideals.

One would have thought that this mutating revolution in the Ukraine would have drawn attention of the centre-left to the fact that fascism had gained a vital beachhead in Europe, and that the danger signals should be flashing. But not a bit of it; a perusal of the Guardian newspaper quickly reveals that their chief concern has been with a non-existent 'Russian threat'. One of their reporters -- or old friend, Luke Harding -described Right Sector as an ''eccentric group of people with unpleasant right-wing views.'' Priceless! This must rank as the political understatement of the century. In fact, the Guardian was simply reiterating the US-imposed neo-conservative foreign policy. But naturally, this is par for the course.

(1) The Nachtingal brigade, which was later incorporated into the SS Galizien, took part in a three-day massacre of the Jewish population of Lvov (now Lviv) from 30 June 1941. Roman Shukhevych was the commander of the Nachtingal and later, in 1943, became commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the "Banderivtsy", or UPA/UIA[5] ), armed henchmen of the fascist Stepan Bandera, who after the war pretended that they had fought both Nazis and Communists. Members of the division are also accused of having murdered some 800 residents of the Polish village of Huta Pieniacka and 44 civilians in the village of Ch?aniów.

Mike Morrison , July 6, 2018 at 5:25 am

Israel is arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine/24876

KiwiAntz , July 6, 2018 at 4:29 am

Another successful US Coup to be ticked off the list by the American Govt, such as what happened in Ukraine! And US support of Nazi's to achieve this, no problem as we created ISIS & ISIL & we arm Terrorists to the teeth to fight Assad in Syria! It never ceases to amaze me how America has the absolute, bare faced cheek & hypocrisy to accuse other Countries such as Russia of election meddling! It's the pot calling the kettle black scenario! For decades America has meddled in other Nations affairs either by supporting Tyrants & Dictators or committing illegal Wars & coups to overthrow democratically elected Govts & their Leaders! Anyone who offers resistance to US tyranny such as Cuba, Iran, Venezuela etc are sanctioned with soft power means to overthrow them in order to force compliance with US demands or face economic ruin! Or hard power is used such as Military intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya! Only Russia & China stand in the way to stop this illegal behaviour & are spearheading the way to a multipolar world & Trump is accelerating America's decline & isolation which will be a great thing for every Peace loving person on Earth who are sick to death of US interference & Warmongering in other Nations affairs! Make America mind it's own business again & stop waging war, should be Trump's motto!

mrtmbrnmn , July 6, 2018 at 12:19 am

Kudos to Daniel Lazare for continuing the truth-telling about the US-engineered (not-so neo) Nazi coup in Ukraine. The great Robert Perry never ceased to write that truth.

Every time I see the phrase "Putin invaded Crimea" (or something similar) in the MSM amen corner reporting on Ukraine or Putin, it is the "tell" that lies and propaganda are being spewed.

MBeaver , July 6, 2018 at 5:01 am

Not the first time either they used Nazis as their lackeys. Aside from the several Nazi helpers after the war, that they pardoned because they promised to help the USA instead, they also used them for what they do best in Gladio. I wouldnt be surprised if even the NSU is a new version of Gladio in Germany. Evidence points to that direction for sure.

michael , July 6, 2018 at 12:48 am

Not sure how this article could be written without the role of Victoria Nuland and the US State Department discussed. Without America propping up these NAZIs, Ukraine could not have been destabilized, and divided between an uncaring EU and a historic protector in Russia.

David G , July 5, 2018 at 10:12 pm

Cohen got another piece on the topic published by the Atlantic Council. The droll headline reads:

"Ukraine's Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence (And No, RT Didn't Write This Headline)"

So at least they're a little self-conscious about the about-face.

Demetri Politis , July 5, 2018 at 9:07 pm

The Maidan affair was planned, organized and financed by the USA. This was not the first time we tried to have regime change in Ukraine. In 2004 we organized "the orange revolution", but it did not succeed. So this time we came better prepared. We brought in armed thugs. We used Sloboda and Right Sector, brought the paid scum to Hotel Ukraina and ordered them to shoot police and "demonstrators" to set the putch in motion to oust the elected president of Ukraine. These are proven facts. there are intercepted phone conversations that confirm them. The Foreing ministers of germany, France and Poland met with President Yanukovich and signed an agreement. He was going to form a new government and have early elections in December. But the USA did not like that. So Ms NUland, the Assistant Secretary for European Affairs called and told our Ambassador in Kiev "fuck the EU. We want Yatseniuk to be the Prime minister". So the putch was set in motion to make sure this time we will get what we wanted. Another phone call was intercepted. The EU Minister of Foreign Affairs called the Foreign Minister of Estonia who had just come back from a visit to Ukraine and asked him what learned. "I was told, he said, that all the shooting that killed civilians and policemen came fro the hotel Ukraina, which was occupied by Sloboda and Righe Sector", "I know", she replied. But as far as the US press and media, nothing reported. Really shameful.

Jerry Alatalo , July 6, 2018 at 1:36 am

Demetri,

People at the time of the bombshell leaked phone conversation -- between Estonia's Urmas Paet and the E.U.'s Catherine Ashton, (mistakenly and big time) believed the false flag coup blaming Yanukovich for the "Maidan Massacre" was totally blown out of the water. People in the West believed the propaganda Yanukovich massacred his own people, then Paet reveals it was "the opposition" responsible for the killings of both Ukraine police and civilians -- certainly THE story at that point in the unfolding development of the Ukraine turmoil -- , yet astonishingly not a single Western corporate media reported on the phone call.

Also astonishing was the (non)response during the call of Ms. Ashton after hearing Paet's facts. She un-energetically responded as if Paet had just told her he had a "wonderful breakfast this morning" instead of the whole Western narrative on Ukraine is dead wrong, something on the lines of "Oh, I didn't know that ", leaving it at that and without showing any (what would be expected) surprise, or curiosity by asking for much more detailed information. Ms. Ashton by her bizarre, completely unaffected response to what was absolutely shocking information at the time leads one to think she knew the truth about Maidan and the coup well before she took the call from Paet.

It was most certainly a profound lesson learned in the ability of the media and politicians to bury the largest, most important sets of facts imaginable -- intentionally and maliciously with respect to the people's right to know the fullest historical truth. Unfortunately, that capacity for "burying facts" has continued up until today, making Consortium News and other genuine truth-focused media platforms all the more necessary for exposing the lies.

Peace.

Brad Owen , July 6, 2018 at 3:51 am

The EU is just as complicit as the US; this is a Trans-Atlantic Empire cobbled together Post-WWII from newly acquired ( non-existent before WWII) American military might and the ruling classes from the former British, French, and Dutch Empires, and German and Italian ruling classes, shorn of overt fascism, now to be used for consolidating their power in cooperation rather than competition ( which only lead to nasty world wars), centered in a EU, commanding an American military as its Legions, to bring as much of the World (their former colonies) into their Global Empire as possible. The smart Ukrainians looked East, toward Russia and China and New Silk Road Policies of development. The less smart Ukrainians looked West to become an undeveloped, breadbasket Province of the Trans-Atlantic Empire of global dimensions. That is what launched the Regime change; to keep the Ukraine looking West, not East (where the future of the World is now being narrated Trump knows this too, and is looking East toward development, via resolving Korean crisis, meetings with Xi and with Putin on July 16th).

Frank Mintz , July 5, 2018 at 8:48 pm

Can the whereabouts of Stepan Bandera be ascertained during the period 1924-1944, when his organization was involved in the massacres in Volhynia that are cited? I have read he was in German detention during that period as the Nazi's feared he was actually backing an independent Ukraine free of German control. Re: Wikipedia, the author of these killings is not Bandera, but one Mikola Lebed. Do the demonstrators march around with pictures of Lebed?

ToivoS , July 5, 2018 at 10:55 pm

Wrong, Bandera was in german custody for about 12 months. He freely worked with the Nazis otherwise. The SS Galizian division consisted of 12,000 Ukrainians who saw him as their leader. Lebed was also a follower. Wikipedia for this story is not a good place to find out about the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators.

Sleak , July 5, 2018 at 8:28 pm

Look at the picture of the party's leader It might seem that he is emulating nazi's greeting or that he might merely pointing at somebody who is addressed to him with a question Speaking of neo nazis Yes its a dangerous precedent to revive those "traditions" but unlike red Khmers Commies or other affiliated organizations they didn't put to sleep millions of people and even though they are claiming something so far it's only a war with monuments not people See the difference Mr Cohen And btw passive aggressiveness is much more dangerous that stupid stunts

Joe Lauria , July 5, 2018 at 9:48 pm

>> so far it's only a war with monuments not people <<

" In the earlier stages of the civil war, for instance, the rightwing extremists burned more than 40 people alive in a labor union building in Odessa, a horrific incident downplayed by Western media."

Cassandra Dean , July 5, 2018 at 8:17 pm

It wasn't Right Sector it was Yatseniuk who ascribed World War II as the Soviet Union's invasion of Germany and Ukraine, and who criticized his own removal from office by comparing electoral politics to the Fuehrer Principle.

It was Dutch/American-owned TV channel Hromadske that broadcast a discussion of how many people in the south-east were "surplus to requirements" and would have to be killed.

F. G. Sanford , July 5, 2018 at 6:43 pm

I'll keep this brief, because I already got blue in the face back in 2014 trying to point out many, if not more of the things covered in this article. Y'all need, first of all, to knock off that "neo" stuff. These people are not "neo" anything. They are bona fide originals. The leadership operating in Ukraine today exhibits an unbroken heritage of loyalty to and association with the OUN-B, Stepan Bandera, Yaroslav Stetsko and the Einsatzgruppen "death squads" of WWII.

Some of them, in their nineties now, still dress up in their Wehrmacht uniforms and participate in the rallies and torchlight parades. Poroshenko is no "innocent bystander", either.

Between Pravy Sektor, Svoboda, the Social Nationalist Party and Andrey Parubiy, what we're talking about here is re-activation of the old guard, not a new movement.

Now that they are openly conducting pogroms against Roma people and others, that should be fairly obvious. "Toria" Nuland and her neocon cronies put a Nazi regime in control of a country right on Russia's border. You gotta be nuttier than a family size jar of Skippy to pull off a stunt like that.

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-779-ounb-redux-the-underground-reich-and-the-ukrainian-crisis/

Seamus Padraig , July 5, 2018 at 2:05 pm

'The U.S.-backed "Euromaidan" uprising not only drove out former president Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014, who had won an OSCE-certified election, but tore the country in two, precisely because ultra-rightists like C14 were in the lead But if one had to choose the looniest story of all, one that best reflects the abject toadyism of the reporting classes, it would have to be "Why Jews and Ukrainians Have Become Unlikely Allies," a 1,400-word article that ran on the Post-owned Foreign Policy website in May 2014.'

Here's the thing though: however weird it may sound, there actually DOES seem to exist some sort of tacit alliance between (some, not all) Jews and Ukrainian Nazis. Even if their ultimate goals are completely at odds -- the Nazis hate the EU, but the Jews mostly want to join it -- they nearly always seem to work together against Russia. It has even been maintained that the Azov Battalion (one of the all-volunteer Neo-Nazi militias fighting against the Donbass rebels) was entirely financed for a time by Jewish oligarch Ihor Kholomoisky, at least until he did something to piss Poroshenko off and got sacked from his post as governor of Dniepropetrovsk. And in the beginning, Jews who tried to point out that Neo-Nazi groups were involved in overthrowing Yanukovych, like Dr. Stephen Cohen, were roundly denounced a 'Russia apologists' just for stating facts.

But now that Washington's whole Ukraine project has gone south, I guess the Nazis, having outlived their usefulness, are, as usual, to be the fall-guys and take all the blame.

Anna , July 5, 2018 at 2:39 pm

yeh, the Kaganat of Nuland has many veils.

The most stunning aspect of the banderite putsch in Kiev was the dead silence of nazi-hunters from Wiesenthal Center, the always oh-so-sensitive ADL, the main 52 (fifty-two!) American Jewish organizations, and the overall docility and compliance of the "righteous" Israel with the banderite-neo-Nazi ideology by Kagans-selected power structures in Ukraine.

Mr. Kolomojsky, a financier of neo-nazi battalion Azov, is still an Israeli citizen.

Mrs. Nuland-Kagan, the main machinator of the regime change in Kiev, has not been ostracized by the Jewish Community at large.
The deeply amoral and bloodthirsty Carl Gerschman from NED, who has been the main cheerleader for the putsch and for the installing the banderite-friendly government in Kiev, has not been ostracized by the Jewish Community at large either. What a stench!
https://medium.com/@gmochannel/us-staged-a-coup-in-ukraine-brief-history-and-facts-898c6d0007d6

[Jul 06, 2018] It used to be that the only things one could be certain of were "death taxes." Now of course we must add to that list the very dependable presence of CIA / State Dept lies parroted by MSM all over the West.

Jul 06, 2018 | consortiumnews.com

Gary Weglarz , July 5, 2018 at 1:01 pm

It used to be that the only things one could depend on were "death & taxes." Now of course we must add to that list the very dependable presence of CIA / State Dept lies parroted by MSM all over the West. Lies which are endlessly repeated in defiance of all physical reality and often in direct opposition to actual events in the actual world we live in.

From the Ukraine coup, to Russia-gate, to the "Assad's gassing his own people" regime change propaganda, to the totally surreal Alice in Wonderland Skripnal poisoning nonsense in the U.K, the Western MSM have been as dependable as the rising sun.

They can and do provide fact-free, evidence-free reporting directly from the bowels of the deep state in support of the neocolonial West, including unending support for the never ending resort to mass violence the West relies upon to keep the rest of the planet subjugated -- just as it has for the last 500+ years.

[Jun 28, 2018] Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for

Jun 28, 2018 | www.unz.com

tac , June 6, 2018 at 6:49 pm GMT

@Quartermaster

Russian troops shot down MH-17. deal with it.

From Putin (in an earlier interview in Austria):

Putin said that Russia has been blocked from participating in the ongoing international investigation into the 2014 downing of flight MH17, which Russia has been recently blamed for. Russian experts "have been denied access to the investigation," said Putin, while Russia's arguments are "not taken into consideration" because nobody "is interested in hearing us out."

Truly sensational new document leak confirms Kiev's direct responsibility for shooting down the Malesian Airlines flight MH17 in Donbass on July 17, 2014. Ukrainian top secret official documents show us that the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) was ordered to hide all evidence from the Ukrainian responsibility and especially everything which could prove Ukrainian air forces involvement in executed secret state terrorism operation.
The documents are leaked by Ukrainian official to the Sovershenno Sekretno newspaper. Russian and English translations from the orginal articles are available with copies of the leaked documents, which show written orders given by Ukrainian top officials concerning concealing of the operation, shooting down the flight MH17 .

http://www.vietatoparlare.it/leaked-documents-ukrainian-air-forces-shot-down-mh17-confirms-conspiracy-and-guilt/

This article first published on July 30, 2014 contradicts the substance of the recently released Dutch Safety Board Report. We are bringing it to the attention of our readers in view of the soon to be released BBC TV documentary, which suggests that the MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian jet fighter.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

Although the Dutch report concluded that the Russian-made BUK surface-to-air missile with a 9N314M warhead brought down the Boeing 777, it did not mention which side was responsible for firing the missile (International Business Times, March 8, 2016

The evidence amply confirms that Malaysian Airlines MH17 was not brought down by a surface to air missile. It was brought down by military aircraft .