Bigger doesn't imply better. Bigger often is a sign of obesity, of lost control, of overcomplexity, of cancerous cells
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May the source be with you, but remember the KISS principle ;-) Bigger doesn't imply better. Bigger often is a sign of obesity, of lost control, of overcomplexity, of cancerous cells |
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Future Prime Minister – Arseniy Yatsenyuk (rechristened to “Yats”) with his patron Victoria Nuland. Two statists -- Taygibok (Co-founder of far right Socialist-National Party, later renamed into Svoboda party) and Klitschko (leader of pro-Germany, Merkel-financed Udar Party who was just thrown under the bus) are present
Due to the size an introduction was converted to a separate page State Department neocons show EU its real place
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Dec 08, 2018 | www.stalkerzone.org
Translated by Ollie Richardson & Angelina Siard 19:45:09
05/12/2018 Aleksey Zhuravko
Dear friends!FOR INFORMATION. EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW THIS! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HIDE THE TRUTH.
Today I had a conversation with a serious person from Kiev who is on active service. For safety reasons I cannot give its name. I trust this person. Many thanks that there are still decent people.
Here is what he told me. The special operation in the Black Sea made on November 25th in the Kerch Strait was prepared over three months by the American intelligence agencies and the SBU. All orders on carrying out a provocation in the Black Sea were given to Poroshenko by the US Embassy in Ukraine. And Poroshenko, in turn, personally gave the instructions to the performers. He consciously sent boats and young guys off to be shot, and members of the crew were equipped with a large number of cartridges and small arms, having being told that they must fire back to the last bullet. They were sent to a certain death for the purpose of carrying out a provocation.
There's more. Poroshenko gave the order to not hold any negotiations with Russia concerning returning sailors, and if the people will insist and kick up a storm around it, then drag out he negotiation process as much as possible. This order came from the US Embassy in Ukraine.
Dear parents of the aggrieved Ukrainian sailors detained by the border service of Russia! Your children were used by Poroshenko and his gang as cannon fodder, and you continue to be deceived. That 50,000 hryvnia that he promised you will end very quickly. He met you only to calm your anger, to appease you, like saying "we are dealing with this issue
... ... ...
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Dec 06, 2018 | thesaker.is
Military Review – News
The owner of FC "Lion": It is difficult for us to find a plane that would fly to Ukraine
published 2018/11/28In 10 Ukrainian regions, martial law imposed by Poroshenko did not come into force de jure, and
the first "swallows" of this entry have already arrived on Ukrainian soil. And flew in, from where
Kiev did not expect. European air carriers stated that in connection with the introduction of martial
law on the territory of Ukraine, they are forced to radically reconsider the air traffic regime with this
country.The situation is told by the Ukrainian media, reporting and the accompanying nuances of this decision.
The nuances are connected with the fact that international-level football matches that are scheduled
to take place on Ukrainian territory are becoming suspended in the air.The UNIAN Information Service cites a statement by Jean-Michel Olas, owner of the "Lyon" (France)
football club: " The decision was made to postpone the "Arsenal" match in London. We do not know
whether we will fly to "Shakhtar", taking into account the political situation. It's difficult for us find a
plane whose owners would send him there. Now the decision is made at the UEFA level. "Earlier it became known that the match between "Arsenal" (London) and Poltava "Vorskla" in the
Europa League was decided to be moved from the Poltava stadium to Kiev. It is noteworthy that the
Poltava region by the Verkhovna Rada was not included in the zone of introduction of the EaP.At the same time, the possibility of transferring the match outside Ukraine was also discussed due to
the fact that martial law is beginning to operate in a number of regions of the country.Conducting two more international matches in Ukraine is open to question.
Recall that the martial law provides, among other things, the closure of airspace. European air
carriers, apparently, are wary of how Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile systems move along the streets
of Ukrainian cities. Do they really not believe Poroshenko's words that " the Ukrainian Armed Forces
did not bring down the Malaysian "Boeing" over the Donbas in 2014 "? ..
(Google translation)
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Dec 05, 2018 | www.unz.com
One of the local Washington television stations was doing a typical early morning honoring our soldiers schtick just before Thanksgiving. In it soldiers stationed far from home were treated to videolinks so they could talk to their families and everyone could nod happily and wish themselves a wonderful holiday. Not really listening, I became interested when I half heard that the soldier being interviewed was spending his Thanksgiving in Ukraine.
It occurred to me that the soldier just might have committed a security faux pas by revealing where he was, but I also recalled that there have been joint military maneuvers as well as some kind of training mission going on in the country, teaching the Ukrainian Army how to use the shiny new sophisticated weapons that the United States was providing it with to defend against "Russian aggression."
Ukraine is only one part of the world where the Trump Administration has expanded the mission of democracy promotion, only in Kiev the reality is more like faux democracy promotion since Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is clearly exploiting a situation that he himself provoked . He envisions setting himself up as a victim of Moscow to aid in his attempts to establish his own power through a security relationship with Washington. That in turn will help his bid for reelection in March 2019 elections, in which his poll numbers are currently running embarrassingly low largely due to the widescale corruption in his government. Poroshenko has already done much to silence the press in his county while the developing crisis with Russia has enabled him to declare martial law in the eastern parts of the country where he is most poorly regarded. If it all works out, he hopes to win the election and subsequently, it is widely believed, he will move to expand his own executive authority.
There also has to be some consideration the encounter with the Russians on the Kerch Strait was contrived by Poroshenko with the assistance of a gaggle of American neoconservative and Israeli advisers who have been actively engaged with the Ukrainian government for the past several years. The timing was good for Poroshenko for his own domestic political reasons but it was also an opportunity for the neocons warmongers that surround Trump and proliferate inside the Beltway to scuttle any possible meeting between a vulnerable Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin at the G20 gathering in Argentina.
The defection of Trump's lawyer Michael Cohen, together with the assumption that a lot of anti-Trump dirt will be spilled soon, means that the American president had to be even more cautious than ever in any dealings with Moscow and all he needed was a nod of approval from National Security Adviser John Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to cancel the encounter. A heads-of-state meeting might not have solved anything but it certainly would be better than the current drift towards a new cold war. If the United States has only one vitally important relationship anywhere it is with Russia as the two countries are ready, able and apparently willing to destroy the world under the aegis of self-defense.
Given the anti-Russian hysteria prevailing in the U.S. and the ability of the neocons to switch on the media, it should come as no surprise that the Russian-Ukrainian incident immediately generated calls from the press and politicians for the White House to get tough with the Kremlin. It is important to note that the United States has no actual national interest in getting involved in a war between Russia and Ukraine if that should come about. The two Eastern European countries are neighbors and have a long history of both friendship and hostility but the only thing clear about the conflict is that it is up to them to sort things out and no amount of sanctions and jawing by concerned congressmen will change that fact.
Other Eastern European nations that similarly have problems with Russia should also be considered provocateurs as they seek to create tension to bind the United States more closely to them through the NATO alliance. The reality is that today's Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union and it neither aspires to nor can afford hegemony over its former allies. What it has made very clear that it does want is a modus vivendi where Russia itself is not being threatened by the West.
Recent military maneuvers in Poland and Lithuania and the stationing of new missiles in Eastern Europe do indeed pose a genuine threat to Moscow as it places NATO forces on top of Russia's border. When Russia reacts to incursions by NATO warships and planes right along its borders, it is accused of acting aggressively. One wonders how the U.S. government would respond if a Russian aircraft carrier were to take up position off the eastern seaboard and were to begin staging reconnaissance flights. Or if the Russian army were to begin military exercises with the Cubans? Does anyone today remember the Bay of Pigs?
renfro , says: December 4, 2018 at 5:53 am GMT
The only foreign threats we have come from the various psychos in the think tanks and special interest lobbies in the US.Justsaying , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:01 am GMTAs Jean-Jules Jusserand, the French ambassador to the United States
from once said of the US : ."On the north, she has a weak neighbor; on the south, another weak neighbor; on the east, fish, and on the west, more fish.'
Crying wolf provides a perfect pretext for the Empire's MIC to line the pockets of the merchants of death. In keeping with its time-honored tradition of propping up tyrants kowtowing to imperial hegemonic wishes, America hardly has friends without some military collaboration. Even the recently anointed sh*thole countries of Africa over 50 such countries have American military cooperation agreements under the guise of the infamous AFRICOM and the War on Terror. The number of military bases in sh*thole African countries remain unknown.anon [355] Disclaimer , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:43 am GMT..the ability of the neocons to switch on the media
Hard to distinguish between the two really. The "free press" of WMD notoriety, Ghaddafi's "genocidal drive" against Libyan citizens, Iraq's involvement with 9/11? Iranian arms in Yemen that have not massacred children in school buses? Iranian fabricated nuclear weapons? Syrian chemical attacks?
The biggest threats to America come from its "friends"
America is being unwittingly exonerated as an innocent bystander unable to choose her own friends. It so happens America's "friends" share the common trait of pushing for war. In countries awash in petrodollars, purchasing billions of dollars in arms used in Yemen to murder children; Zionists are gifted with American state of the art arsenals to murder Palestinians, including women and children. The biggest threat to America comes from inside the deep state itself, especially with the Zionist Israel Firsters pulling strings at will.
America's all time #1 phony "friend". -- -Israel.Ludwig Watzal , says: Website December 4, 2018 at 8:30 am GMTWith a "friend" like Israel, America doesn't need any enemies.
I agree with Phil Giraldi on its analysis of US foreign policy. When lying with dogs, you get fleas. This saying holds especially true for the so-called US friends such as the Saudis, Israelis, Ukrainians, Poles, and the Brits. The NeoZion gang plays President Trump is an open secret. He still employes one of its guiding spirits as national security adviser. As long this Gordian knot is not cut, American foreign policy will not change, and it's getting worse. These folks who surround Trump want war, first with Iran and then with Russia. Their lackey Poroshenko is doing the bitting of Trump and the Zionist regime and their European puppets. The Zionist regime is deeply involved in steering up tensions. Prime minister Wolodymyr Hrojsman is Jewish. Is anyone surprised?Art , says: December 4, 2018 at 8:33 am GMTWhat chance does peace have with these people having Trump's ear: Javanka Kushner, Gina Haspel, Nikki Haley, Mike Pompeo, Mike Pence, Mad Dog Mattis, and John Bolton?jilles dykstra , says: December 4, 2018 at 8:41 am GMTDoesn't look good does it!
Think Peace -- Art
Around 1890 one Rothschild wrote to another 'the only enemy of jews is jews'.anon [121] Disclaimer , says: December 4, 2018 at 10:24 am GMTIn my opinion at present the only enemy of the USA is the USA, that part of the USA that failed in getting Hillary elected.
On the European continent a similar situation, even an establishment Dutch politician, of a christian party, Segers, found out that a substantial part of the Dutch see the government as the enemy.
He has the illusion that pr can save him, and his cronies.
RVBlake , says: December 4, 2018 at 10:50 am GMT"I am not sure that he ever understood "He never understood. That was evident the moment he started floating names like Romney for his cabinet. Personally, I sympathize with Trump after what the deep state has done to him and his family, and I even respect the guy for telling things like they are – the poor autistic bastard just can't help but blurt out the truth about things* but he's also not the guy we needed. We needed a fearless, ruthless, and cunning fighter ready to martyr himself for our interests, the people's interests.
*Global Warming IS a scam – the Paris Accords would not decrease CO2 levels even under perfect – near miraculous – circumstances and is merely being floated by the Chinese so they can give off the appearance of doing something while doing nothing, as they have done before.
- The EU IS a vehicle for Germany.
- Hatti IS a shit hole, it's just that non-autistic people have the good sense not to say that out loud.
- Trudeau DOES have a fake eyebrow.
- Hillary DOES wear a wig, or at least hair extensions on occasion.
- China IS screwing us over economically.
- Mexico isn't sending us their best, they are dumping their poverty problem onto us.
- NATO doesn't have a purpose.
- We shouldn't go to war with N. Korea.
- We shouldn't destroy Syria but destroy ISIS.
- John Brennan and the FBI really did run a deep state coup plot against him during the campaign and first 100 days.
- Russia isn't a big deal unless we make them a big deal.
I am left wondering again, what's so bad about isolationism?james charles , says: December 4, 2018 at 11:08 am GMT@jilles dykstra 'One of many truths lost within this discourse is the reality that the creation of a no-fly zone would, in the words of the most senior general in the US Armed Forces, mean the US going to war "against Syria and Russia". 'anonymous [340] Disclaimer , says: December 4, 2018 at 11:41 am GMThttps://mronline.org/2016/12/13/allday131216-html/
During the election campaign H.R.C., three times, {stupidly?} threatened to impose a 'no fly zone' in Syria – confronting a nuclear armed country.
For a peek into Establishment orthodoxy, check out "Why Does America Spend So Much on Israel?" on Beltway Conservatism's Cartoon Network, aka the PragerU Channel. I've recently started auditing classes there via the Videos page here at The Unz Review.Moi , says: December 4, 2018 at 1:53 pm GMTBeyond parody, a pensioned warrior narrates over 3rd grade graphics, telling most Americans all they care to know about what he calls "Izrul." Perhaps Mr. Giraldi could, despite the apparent taboo, leave a comment and get some discussion going with the Team Red NPCs -- it hasn't worked for me.
@Art I've wondered why we are the way we are. Then I came across this, and I understood:Moi , says: December 4, 2018 at 1:56 pm GMTD.H. Lawrence
"All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."
@jilles dykstra We failed the moment the "pilgrims" seeking freedom started slaughtering the native peoples.Minidrop , says: December 4, 2018 at 2:29 pm GMTThis shtick of blaming US state crimes on foreign influence is getting annoying. You know none of this would be happening if the DO didn't like it. If you want to stop CIA's common plan or conspiracy for war, you've got to end the impunity that permits it. Ratify the Rome Statute. With the judiciary completely gelded, that's the only way to get the CIA regime under control. It's that or DCI Poppy Hager swings at Nuremberg II.wayfarer , says: December 4, 2018 at 2:49 pm GMT@MoiDESERT FOX , says: December 4, 2018 at 3:14 pm GMT"All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."
"You the one who killed our friend?"
The leading sponsors of terror in the world are Israel and the Zionist controlled U.S. and Britain and NATO and their terrorist mercenaries ISIS aka AL CIADA and all of the various off shoots that have been seeded throughout the world by the satanic Zionists.Curmudgeon , says: December 4, 2018 at 3:22 pm GMTThe Zionists have a long historical experience with bringing terror to the world , one example being the Zionist/ Bolshevik revolution in Russia where the Bolsheviks killed some 60 million Russians bringing terror to Russia on an industrial level turning the whole country into a slaughter house!
The Zionist attack on the WTC is but another example of Zionist terrorism, where in one fell swoop the Zionists killed some 3000 Americans and got away with it and every thinking American knows that the Zionists did it!
The greatest terrorist kabal in the world is Zionism and these terrorists have control of every facet of the U.S. government and at some point are going to provoke a war with Russia that will get the whole world blown to hell and in fact this is what the Zionists want as they believe they will survive in their DUMBS akd Deep Underground Military Bases which they have in the U.S. and Israel and Britain, but they care not for the rest of humanity, that is terrorism in spades!
The enemy is not at the gates , the enemy is in control of the U.S. government and is going to be the destruction of America!
You can't really pin Ukraine on Trump. Maidan was not spontaneous.wayfarer , says: December 4, 2018 at 3:39 pm GMTNuland admitted to spending $5 billion to set Maidan up. That $5B is worth 10 times that much in Ukraine. You don't spend that kind of money unless you have a follow up plan, and NATOizing Ukraine to attack Russia was it. The trigger was NATO's bitch, the EU, creating such a horrible deal for Ukraine that only an imbecile would have accepted it. Viktor Yanukovych was no imbecile. The "Russian deal" wasn't all that great for Ukraine either, it was just infinitely better than the turd the EU told Yanukovych to sign.
The real story on Russia is this: the same people that own every "Western liberal democracy" owned the USSR. The Russians got rid of them, and the USSR collapsed. A new invasion was hatched under the guise of "Westernizing" Russia. When the Russians saw that Yeltsin was suckered, and it was the same game, run by the same people, they got a new sheriff. That sheriff started to sort things out, while the owners fled to the UK and Israel. The lives of Russians got better, as the owners are gradually being stripped of their power. The long and short of it, our owners want their ownership of Russia restored.
All wars are economic wars. Capitalism and communism are the two sides of the same coin. Both seek to concentrate ownership, just in different ways using different scams.
Z-man , says: December 4, 2018 at 4:17 pm GMT"The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness."
"Dangerous Tribalism of the Ruling Class"
@JustsayingZ-man , says: December 4, 2018 at 4:21 pm GMTThe biggest threat to America comes from inside the deep state itself, especially with the Zionist Israel Firsters pulling strings at will.
Bears repeating.
@Art I'd have to give 'Slurpy Dog' Mattis a pass on that list. I think (hope) he is aware of the pernicious power of the Cabal .Anonymous [295] Disclaimer , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:31 pm GMTThe reason why Trump supports the Ukraine is easy.CanSpeccy , says: Website December 4, 2018 at 6:33 pm GMT"According to the European Jewish Congress, as of 2014, there are 360,000–400,000 Jews in Ukraine."
And there you have it. Wherever or whatever the interest of Jewry there will be the United States standing tall behind it. Let's just say the Ukraine is guaranteed to stay poor. While the Jews get rich!
JLK , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:41 pm GMTUkrainian President Petro Poroshenko is clearly exploiting a situation that he himself provoked. He envisions setting himself up as a victim of Moscow to aid in his attempts to establish his own power through a security relationship with Washington. That in turn will help his bid for reelection in March 2019 elections
Nah, Porky needs a war to avoid an election which he would undoubtedly lose.
There's no use having an empire if you can't exact an economic advantage. Ultimately, most of the events unfolding today are about keeping the loot flowing to lower Manhattan and central London.EugeneGur , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:42 pm GMTAgent76 , says: December 4, 2018 at 6:47 pm GMTTeenagers who get in trouble often have to ditch their bad friends to turn their lives around. There is still a chance for the United States if we keep our distance from the bad friends
It's hard to do if you are in fact the worst of those bad friends.
friends who have been convincing us to make poor choices.
The poor choices had been made long before these friends even appeared on the scene. In fact, many of these friends owe their very existence and/or influence to the poor choices the US had made. It's so disingenuous to blame the US politics on someone's influence when the reality is exactly the opposite.
If the US were in normal country prepared to behave in a sensible way it would've picked much better partners. But the thing is the US isn't a normal country; it doesn't want partners – in wants vassals, so it is naturally limited in its choice of friends.
September 17, 2014 US Pursues 134 Wars Around the WorldThe US is now involved in 134 wars or none, depending on your definition of war The White House spent much of last week trying to figure out if the word "war" was the right one to describe its military actions against the Islamic State. US Secretary of State John Kerry was at first reluctant: "We're engaged in a major counterterrorism operation," he told CBS News on Sept. 11. "I think war is the wrong terminology and analogy but the fact is that we are engaged in a very significant global effort to curb terrorist activity I don't think people need to get into war fever on this. I think they have to view it as a heightened level of counter terrorist activity." – Global Post
http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/35654/US-Pursues-134-Wars-Around-the-World/
RobinG , says: December 4, 2018 at 7:39 pm GMTChoose wisely America!
Blowback: An Inside Look at How US-Funded Fascists in Ukraine Mentor US White Supremacists https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-backed-fascist-azov-battalion-in-ukraine-is-training-and-radicalizing-american-white-supremacists/251951/AnonFromTN , says: December 4, 2018 at 7:49 pm GMT"Not only are white supremacists from across the West flocking to Ukraine to learn from the combat experience of their fascist brothers-in-arms, they are doing so openly, under the nose of a shrugging law enforcement -- chronicling their experiences on social media before they bring their lessons back home."
The greatest threat to America comes from its elites. Nobody else did as much damage to the country as those greedy thieves.AnonFromTN , says: December 4, 2018 at 7:53 pm GMT@CanSpeccyRealist , says: December 4, 2018 at 9:44 pm GMTNah, Porky needs a war to avoid an election which he would undoubtedly lose.
You hit the nail on the head.
Rurik , says: December 5, 2018 at 9:19 pm GMTThe timing was good for Poroshenko for his own domestic political reasons but it was also an opportunity for the neocons warmongers that surround Trump and proliferate inside the Beltway to scuttle any possible meeting between a vulnerable Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin at the G20 gathering in Argentina.
Trump isn't vulnerable he hired the Deep State apparatchiks, Bolton, Pompeo and many others. Trump is a Deep Stater and is doing a great Kabuki theater to dupe his followers into believing his hands are tied.
@tzatzHow do YOU expect me (and others) to swallow YOUR position?
with a great gulps of satisfaction, that's how.
The conflict between Russia and Ukraine was manufactured by the ZUS State Dept. ((Victoria Nuland)) and John McBloodstain in particular, when Putin upset the Zionist's plans to do a 'Libya' – to Syria.
It was a bloody coup foisted with 5 billion federal reserve note$, of the famous phone call ('Yats is our guy'). Since then the imbeciles in Ukraine have been doing Nazi salutes while taking orders from Jewish supremacist Zionists like Ihor Kolomoyskyi and assorted ZUS Zionists.
The conflict with Iran started when the CIA deposed the duly elected president Mohammed Mossadeq in 1953, and installed the brutal quisling Shah in his place. To keep the Iranian people terrorized for decades into submitting to this perfidy, they utilized the CIA and Mossad run SAVAK.
Learn a little history as you swallow.
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Dec 11, 2015 | Peak Prosperity
Mememonkey pointed my to a 2013 essay by Laurent Guyenot, a French historian and writer on the deep state, that addresses the question of "Who Are The Neoconservatives." If you would like to know about that group that sends the US military into battle and tortures prisoners of war in out name, you need to know about these guys.
First, if you are Jewish, or are a GREEN Meme, please stop and take a deep breath. Please put on your thinking cap and don't react. We are NOT disrespecting a religion, spiritual practice or a culture. We are talking about a radical and very destructive group hidden within a culture and using that culture. Christianity has similar groups and movements--the Crusades, the KKK, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, etc.
My personal investment: This question has been a subject of intense interest for me since I became convinced that 9/11 was an inside job, that the Iraq war was waged for reasons entirely different from those publically stated. I have been horrified to see such a shadowy, powerful group operating from a profoundly "pre-moral" developmental level-i.e., not based in even the most rudimentary principles of morality foundational to civilization.
Who the hell are these people?!
Goyenot's main points (with a touch of personal editorializing):
1. The American Neocons are Zionists (Their goal is expanding political / military power. Initially this is focused on the state of Israel.)
Neoconservativism is essentially a modern right wing Jewish version of Machiavelli's political strategy. What characterizes the neoconservative movement is therefore not as much Judaism as a religious tradition, but rather Judiasm as a political project, i.e. Zionism, by Machiavellian means.
This is not a religious movement though it may use religions words and vocabulary. It is a political and military movement. They are not concerned with being close to God. This is a movement to expand political and military power. Some are Christian and Mormon, culturally.
Obviously , if Zionism is synonymous with patriotism in Israel, it cannot be an acceptable label in American politics, where it would mean loyalty to a foreign power. This is why the neoconservatives do not represent themselves as Zionists on the American scene. Yet they do not hide it all together either.
He points out dual-citizen (Israel / USA) members and self proclaimed Zionists throughout cabinet level positions in the US government, international banking and controlling the US military. In private writings and occasionally in public, Neocons admit that America's war policies are actually Israel's war goals. (Examples provided.)
2. Most American Jews are overwhelmingly liberal and do NOT share the perspective of the radical Zionists.
The neoconservative movement, which is generally perceived as a radical (rather than "conservative") Republican right, is, in reality, an intellectual movement born in the late 1960s in the pages of the monthly magazine Commentary, a media arm of the American Jewish Committee, which had replaced the Contemporary Jewish Record in 1945. The Forward, the oldest American Jewish weekly, wrote in a January 6th, 2006 article signed Gal Beckerman: "If there is an intellectual movement in America to whose invention Jews can lay sole claim, neoconservatism is it. It's a thought one imagines most American Jews, overwhelmingly liberal, will find horrifying. And yet it is a fact that as a political philosophy, neoconservatism was born among the children of Jewish immigrants and is now largely the intellectual domain of those immigrants' grandchildren".
3. Intellectual Basis and Moral developmental level
Goyenot traces the Neocon's origins through its influential writers and thinkers. Highest on the list is Leo Strauss. (Neocons are sometimes called "the Straussians.") Leo Strauss is a great admirer of Machiavelli with his utter contempt for restraining moral principles making him "uniquely effective," and, "the ideal patriot." He gushes over Machiavelli praising the intrepidity of his thought, the grandeur of his vision, and the graceful subtlety of his speech.
Other major points:
- believes that Truth is harmful to the common man and the social order and should be reserved for superior minds.
- nations derive their strength from their myths, which are necessary for government and governance.
- national myths have no necessary relationship with historical reality: they are socio-cultural constructions that the State has a duty to disseminate.
- to be effective, any national myth must be based on a clear distinction between good and evil; it derives its cohesive strength from the hatred of an enemy nation.
- As recognized by Abram Shulsky and Gary Schmitt in an article "Leo Strauss and the World of Intelligence" (1999), for Strauss, "deception is the norm in political life" – the rule they [the Neocons] applied to fabricating the lie of weapons of mass destruction by Saddam Hussein when working inside the Office of Special Plans.
- George Bushes speech from the national cathedral after 9/11 exemplifies myth-making at its finest: "Our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks and rid the world of Evil. War has been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder. This nation is peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger. . . .[W]e ask almighty God to watch over our nation, and grant us patience and resolve in all that is to come. . . . And may He always guide our country. God bless America.
4. The Zionist/Neocons are piggy-backing onto, or utilizing, the religious myths of both the Jewish and Christian world to consolidate power. This is brilliant Machiavellian strategy.
- the "chosen people" myth (God likes us best, we are better than you)
- the Holy Land myth (one area of real estate is more holy than another)
- the second coming of Christ myth
- the establishment of God's Kingdom on Earth through global destruction/war (nuclear war for the Glory of God)
[The]Pax Judaica will come only when "all the nations shall flow" to the Jerusalem temple, from where "shall go forth the law" (Isaiah 2:1-3). This vision of a new world order with Jerusalem at its center resonates within the Likudnik and neoconservative circles. At the Jerusalem Summit, held from October 12th to 14th, 2003 in the symbolically significant King David Hotel, an alliance was forged between Zionist Jews and Evangelical Christians around a "theopolitical" project, one that would consider Israel "the key to the harmony of civilizations", replacing the United Nations that's become a "a tribalized confederation hijacked by Third World dictatorships": "Jerusalem's spiritual and historical importance endows it with a special authority to become a center of world's unity. [...] We believe that one of the objectives of Israel's divinely-inspired rebirth is to make it the center of the new unity of the nations, which will lead to an era of peace and prosperity, foretold by the Prophets". Three acting Israeli ministers spoke at the summit, including Benjamin Netanyahu, and Richard Perle.
Jerusalem's dream empire is expected to come through the nightmare of world war. The prophet Zechariah, often cited on Zionist forums, predicted that the Lord will fight "all nations" allied against Israel. In a single day, the whole earth will become a desert, with the exception of Jerusalem, who "shall remain aloft upon its site" (14:10).
With more than 50 millions members, Christians United for Israel is a major political force in the U.S.. Its Chairman, pastor John Haggee, declared: "The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West, [...] a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ".
And Guyenot concludes:
Is it possible that this biblical dream, mixed with the neo-Machiavellianism of Leo Strauss and the militarism of Likud, is what is quietly animating an exceptionally determined and organized ultra-Zionist clan? General Wesley Clark testified on numerous occasions before the cameras, that one month after September 11th, 2001 a general from the Pentagon showed him a memo from neoconservative strategists "that describes how we're gonna take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia and Sudan and finishing off with Iran".
Is it just a coincidence that the "seven nations" doomed to be destroyed by Israel form part of the biblical myths? [W]hen Yahweh will deliver Israel "seven nations greater and mightier than yourself [ ] you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them."
My summary:
- We have a group that wishes greatly expanded power (to rule the world??)
- Among them are brilliant strategists
- They operate unrestrained by the most basic moral principles upon which civilization is founded. They are undisturbed by compassion for the suffering of others.
- They use consciously and skillfully use deception and "myth-making" to shape policy
- This is not a spiritual movement in any sense
- They are utilizing religious myths and language to influence public thinking
- They envision "winning" in the aftermath world war.
- They have infiltrated the highest levels of banking, US military, NATO and US government.
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Dec 03, 2018 | www.rt.com
Russia's President Vladimir Putin has branded the Ukrainian leadership a "party of war" which would continue fueling conflicts while they stay in power, giving the recent Kerch Strait incident as an example. "When I look at this latest incident in the Black Sea, all what's happening in Donbass – everything indicates that the current Ukrainian leadership is not interested in resolving this situation at all, especially in a peaceful way," Putin told reporters during a media conference in the aftermath of the G20 summit in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
This is a party of war and as long as they stay in power, all such tragedies, all this war will go on.
The Kiev authorities are craving war primarily for two reasons – to rip profits from it, and to blame all their own domestic failures on it and actions of some sort of "aggressors."
Also on rt.com 'Kiev would get away even with eating babies': Putin says Kerch Strait standoff is a provocation"As they say, for one it's war, for other – it's mother. That's reason number one why the Ukrainian government is not interested in a peaceful resolution of the conflict," Putin stated.
Second, you can always use war to justify your failures in economy, social policy. You can always blame things on an aggressor.
This approach to statecraft by the Ukrainian authorities deeply concerns Russia's President. "We care about Ukraine because Ukraine is our neighbor," Putin said.
Tensions between Russia and Ukraine have been soaring after the incident in the Kerch Strait. Last weekend three Ukrainian Navy ships tried to break through the strait without seeking the proper permission from Russia. Following a tense stand-off and altercation with Russia's border guard, the vessels were seized and their crews detained over their violation of the country's border.
Also on rt.com 'I had a short conversation with Trump and I DIDN'T sit next to Melania' – PutinWhile Kiev branded the incident an act of "aggression" on Moscow's part, Russia believes the whole Kerch affair to be a deliberate "provocation" which allowed Kiev to declare a so-called "partial" martial law ahead of Ukraine's presidential election.
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Dec 01, 2018 | www.rt.com
FILM:
PRESIDENT: This is incredible! I never ordered such a thing!
SOVIET AMBASSADOR (scornfully): Our [intelligence] source was the New York Times.
-- "Dr. Strangelove"REALITY:
US President Donald Trump is still unsure whether to meet with Vladimir Putin, pending a 'full report' about the Kerch Strait incident that by pure coincidence happened just days before the upcoming G20 summit in Argentina.
Trump cancels Putin meeting at G20 over Ukraine standoff ... Trump, Putin to meet at G20 amid Russia-Ukraine tensions ... Trump to meet Putin at G20, but not MBS - Bolton - rt.com
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Nov 29, 2018 | www.theamericanconservative.com
The recent clash between Russian and Ukrainian naval vessels in the Kerch Strait has generated a flurry of alarm. NATO was compelled to call an emergency meeting with Ukraine and the UN Security Council convened an urgent session to discuss the crisis. Exercising their usual tendency to oversimplify murky geopolitical rivalries, Western officials and journalists embraced the knee-jerk narrative that the incident is yet another case of Vladimir Putin's blatant aggression and " outlaw behavior " against its peace-loving, democratic neighbor. Right on cue, CNN, MSNBC, and other media outlets dispatched stridently anti-Russian editorials masquerading as news stories .In reality, the Kerch Strait incident involves a complex mixture of factors. They include the tense Russian-Ukrainian bilateral relationship, Kiev's broader foreign policy objectives, and Ukraine's volatile domestic politics.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko had to know that a decision to send three naval vessels through the Kerch Strait would be disruptive. The strait, which connects the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, separates Russia's Taman Peninsula from the Crimea Peninsula. Despite Moscow's annexation of the latter in 2014, Kiev still considers Crimea to be Ukrainian territory, a position that the United States and its allies back emphatically. Moreover, passage through the strait is the only oceanic link between Ukraine's Black Sea ports and those on the Azov. Kiev, not surprisingly, views the strait as international waters. Russia, however, regards the waterway as its own territorial waters and viewed the attempted transit by the three Ukrainian ships as a violation.
Whatever the legal merits of the competing positions regarding sovereignty over Crimea and the status of the Kerch Strait, the reality is that Russia controls that peninsula and is unlikely to ever restore it to Ukraine , despite Western demands. Poroshenko had to know that his attempt to send warships through a narrow passage between what the Kremlin insists are two portions of Russian territory was certain to cause an incident. Why did Kiev risk (if not avidly seek) such a confrontation? And why now? There are several likely motives.
Kiev wants to increase pressure on NATO, and especially the United States, to take a harder stance against Moscow. Despite their official position that the Kremlin must disgorge Crimea and end support for pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, Western policy looks increasingly stale and ineffectual. Some European officials even muse that it may be time to reconsider (weaken) the economic sanctions that the West imposed on Russia. President Trump has stated that Russia should be re-admitted to the G-7 group of leading economic powers.
Such talk is potentially quite threatening to Ukraine's interests. Creating an incident that reminds Kiev's Western supporters (and the rest of the world) of Moscow's aggressive tendencies makes any prospect of even a limited rapprochement between Russia and either NATO or the European Union less likely.
Ukrainian leaders are especially determined to nurture greater bilateral strategic cooperation with the United States. The notion that the Trump administration has pursued a "soft" policy toward Russia, much less one that amounts to appeasement, has always been overstated. Trump's initiatives are actually more hardline than those Barack Obama's administration embraced. That is especially true regarding Washington's relationship with Kiev . Whereas Obama consistently refused to provide weapons to Ukraine, the Trump administration has approved two major arms sales, one of which included sophisticated anti-tank missiles. U.S. troops have participated in joint military exercises with Ukrainian forces, and Secretary of Defense James Mattis concedes that the United States is training Ukrainian units at a base in western Ukraine.
Poroshenko and his associates want to encourage and intensify those trends. They hope that creating a new incident underscoring aggressive Russian conduct will lead the Trump administration to boost arms sales and other forms of bilateral military cooperation. Even if Trump proved reluctant to adopt that course, domestic and international pressure might leave him little choice. Indeed, Western news media outlets excoriated Trump for not immediately condemning Russia as an outright aggressor in the Kerch Strait incident.
Washington Quietly Increases Lethal Weapons to Ukraine Admitting Ukraine Into NATO Would Be a Fool's ErrandPoroshenko thus has ample foreign policy reasons for taking the actions he did in the Kerch Strait. He also has significant political and ideological incentives. His government did not announce the official date for Ukraine's 2019 presidential election until two days following the naval clash; it is now set for March 31. To say that the timing of the announcement was suspicious is an understatement.
No candidate in the extremely crowded field is likely to exceed the 50 percent mark needed to avoid a runoff, but recent surveys have indicated that Poroshenko is in surprisingly poor political shape. Most polls showed him receiving between 8 and 15 percent of the first-round vote. The leading candidate is former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, with Poroshenko running in third. Corruption scandals continue to bedevil his administration, making his re-election (or even his ability to make the runoff) far from certain.
In addition to creating a "rally around the flag" effect, thereby boosting Poroshenko's status, Russian seizure of the Ukrainian vessels gave the president a justification to impose outright martial law in 10 regions of eastern Ukraine -- areas likely to be especially hostile to his political prospects. It could also serve as a basis for tightening Ukraine's already worrisome restrictions on freedom of expression.
That track record should trouble Kiev's backers in the West. To wage war against eastern separatists, Kiev early on not only instituted military conscription, it arrested critics of that action. Authorities jailed television journalist and blogger Ruslan Kotsaba and charged him with treason for making a video denouncing the conscription law. Kotsaba become Amnesty International's first "prisoner of conscience" in Ukraine since the 2014 so-called Maidan revolution.
The vagueness of the applicable laws (and the absence of any meaningful independent review or right of appeal) has been especially alarming. Indeed, it seems that anyone who disputes the government's account of the Maidan revolution (especially those who dare to mention the role of ultranationalist, neo-fascist elements) or the conflict in eastern Ukraine is likely to be silenced.
Bogdan Ovcharuk, a spokesperson for Amnesty International's Kiev office, expressed the concerns of many proponents of freedom of expression when he told the BBC: "This is a very slippery slope indeed. It's one thing to restrict access to texts advocating violence, but in general banning books because their authors have views deemed unacceptable to politicians in Kiev is deeply dangerous." The consequences of such a campaign, he warned , were certain to damage the fabric of liberty.
Yet the Kiev government's restrictive policies continue unabated. In September 2015, Ukrainian authorities issued an order banning 34 journalists and seven bloggers from even entering the country. The Committee to Protect Journalists reported that the newly publicized list was merely part of a larger blacklist that contained the names of 388 individuals and more than a hundred organizations that were barred from entry on the grounds of "national security" and allegedly posing a threat to Ukraine's "territorial integrity."
Human Rights Watch criticized the Kiev government in September 2017 for imposing yet more restrictions on journalists, especially foreign correspondents. The Poroshenko government even pushed through legislation barring criticism of Ukraine's past , including the role that ultra-nationalist guerilla leader (and Nazi collaborator) Stepan Bandera and his followers played in World War II. Censorship provisions and other media restrictions may become even more widespread and arbitrary with Poroshenko's new declaration of martial law.
Ukraine's Western admirers typically ignore such evidence of authoritarian conduct, since it does not fit with their portrayal of the country as an enlightened member of the democratic community. The reality is that Ukraine epitomizes what CNN analyst Fareed Zakaria has aptly described as an "illiberal democracy." The Poroshenko regime certainly does not warrant unquestioned Western backing. Kiev is not above engaging in provocations to serve either its political leadership's domestic agenda or its foreign policy objectives. The United States does not have vital strategic or moral interests at stake in the overall Ukraine-Russia quarrel, much less the latest parochial spat in the Kerch Strait. A cautious, restrained posture is appropriate.
Ted Galen Carpenter, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute and a contributing editor at The American Conservative, is the author of 12 books and more than 700 articles on international affairs. His latest book is Gullible Superpower: U.S. Support for Bogus Foreign Democratic Movements (forthcoming, February 2019).
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Nov 30, 2018 | www.unz.com
On departure for the G-20 gathering in Buenos Aires, President Donald Trump canceled his planned weekend meeting with Vladimir Putin, citing as his reason the Russian military's seizure and holding of three Ukrainian ships and 24 sailors.
But was Putin really the provocateur in Sunday's naval clash outside Kerch Strait, the Black Sea gateway to the Sea of Azov?
Or was the provocateur Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko?
First, a bit of history.
In 2014, after the pro-Russian regime in Kiev was ousted in a coup, and a pro-NATO regime installed with U.S. backing, Putin detached and annexed Crimea, for centuries the homeport of Russia's Black Sea fleet.
With the return of Crimea, Russia now occupied both sides of Kerch Strait. And this year, Russia completed a 12-mile bridge over the strait and Putin drove the first truck across.
The Sea of Azov became a virtual Russian lake, access to which was controlled by Russia, just as access to the Black Sea is controlled by Turkey.
While the world refused to recognize the new reality, Russia began to impose rules for ships transiting the strait, including 48 hours notice to get permission.
Ukrainian vessels, including warships, would have to notify Russian authorities before passing beneath the Kerch Strait Bridge into the Sea of Azov to reach their major port of Mariupol.
Sunday, two Ukrainian artillery ships and a tug, which had sailed out of Odessa in western Ukraine, passed through what Russia now regards as its territorial waters off Crimea and the Kerch Peninsula. Destination: Mariupol.
The Ukrainian vessels refused to obey Russian directives to halt.
Russian warships fired at the Ukrainian vessels and rammed the tug. Three Ukrainian sailors were wounded, and 24 crew taken into custody. Russia's refusal to release the sailors was given by President Trump as the reason for canceling his Putin meeting. Moscow contends that Ukraine deliberately violated the new rules of transit that Kiev had previously observed, to create an incident.
For his part, Putin has sought to play the matter down, calling it a "border incident, nothing more." "The incident in the Black Sea was a provocation organized by the authorities and maybe the president himself. (Poroshenko's) rating is falling so he needed to do something." Maxim Eristavi, a fellow at the Atlantic Council, seems to concur: "Poroshenko wants to get a head start in his election campaign. He is playing the card of commander in chief, flying around in military uniform, trying to project that he is in control."
Our U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, however, accused Russia of "outlaw actions" against the Ukrainian vessels and "an arrogant act the international community will never accept."
Predictably, our interventionists decried Russian "aggression" and demanded we back up our Ukrainian "ally" and send military aid. Why was Poroshenko's ordering of gunboats into the Sea of Azov, while ignoring rules Russia set down for passage, provocative? Because Poroshenko, whose warships had previously transited the strait, had to know the risk that he was taking and that Russia might resist.
Why would he provoke the Russians? Because, with his poll numbers sinking badly, Poroshenko realizes that unless he does something dramatic, his party stands little chance in next March's elections.
Immediately after the clash, Poroshenko imposed martial law in all provinces bordering Russia and the Black Sea, declared an invasion might be imminent, demanded new Western sanctions on Moscow, called on the U.S. to stand with him, and began visiting army units in battle fatigues.
Some Westerners want even more in the way of confronting Putin. Adrian Karatnycky of the Atlantic Council urges us to build up U.S. naval forces in the Black Sea, send anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles to Ukraine, ratchet up sanctions on Russia, threaten to expel her from the SWIFT system of international bank transactions, and pressure Europe to cancel the Russians' Nord Stream 2 and South Stream oil pipelines into Europe.
But there is a larger issue here. Why is control of the Kerch Strait any of our business? Why is this our quarrel, to the point that U.S. strategists want us to confront Russia over a Crimean Peninsula that houses the Livadia Palace that was the last summer residence of Czar Nicholas II?
If Ukraine had a right to break free of Russia in 1991, why do not Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk have the right to break free of Kiev?
Why are we letting ourselves be dragged into everyone's quarrels -- from who owns the islets in the South China Sea, to who owns the Senkaku and Southern Kurils; and from whether Transnistria had a right to secede from Moldova, to whether South Ossetia and Abkhazia had the right to break free of Georgia, when Georgia broke free of Russia?
Do the American people care a fig for these places? Are we really willing to risk war with Russia or China over who holds title to them?
Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of "Nixon's White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever."
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Nov 30, 2018 | www.rt.com
Progressive Journal, and Foreign Policy Journal. Published time: 29 Nov, 2018 13:09 Get short URL
A Western ideologue unravelling is no pretty sight. It's like watching a lobster boiling in a pot. And like that lobster he or she eventually pops. 'Popping' recently over Russia have been key figures of the Western geopolitical and ideological firmament – people for whom the world is made of a Western bloc of nations divinely ordained to command, and the rest of the world condemned to obey.
A prime example of what I mean concerns the Atlantic Council in Washington, one of the more notorious of an ever expanding network of neocon think tanks in our world, within whose Washington offices you will find gathered cranks of inordinate dimension. For such people Russia is not a country of 146 million people whose contribution to the world in the fields of art, science, culture and so on has been profound throughout its history and remains so today, but instead is a cancer that needs to be removed – preferably by force.
Take Mr Anders Aslund – economist, author and senior crank/fellow at the Atlantic Council. His outpouring of vituperation in response to the Kerch Strait incident involving Russia and Ukraine – calling for the West and NATO to " react sharply before it is too late " – is redolent of a man suffering emotional and psychological meltdown.
Everything suggests that Russia slowly takes one step after the other to block the Azov Sea off from Ukraine & international shipping. The West & NATO should react sharply before it is too late. https://t.co/kZMn2XTEls
-- Anders Åslund (@anders_aslund) November 25, 2018In losing his mind so, Mr Aslund reminds us that the Atlantic Council is an organization stacked with people for whom rationality is a vice and irrationality a virtue. Perhaps such a state of affairs might even be funny if not for the influence this particular think tank wields in Western foreign policy circles; influence that is on a par with an arsonist being taken seriously when it comes to fire prevention.
It also comes as no surprise that the Atlantic Council's financial sponsors amount to a rogue's gallery of global corporations, oil companies, banks and financial institutions, governments and various other entities of such nature. It confirms that the relationship between global capitalism and Western imperialism is one forged in hell – or at least it does for those nations and people forced to exist at the sharp end of its egregious role around the world when it comes to fomenting conflict, crises, carnage and instability.
Ukraine is a prime example of what I mean. Lest anyone forget, the last democratically elected government of Ukraine to enjoy a mandate covering the entire country was unceremoniously toppled by a violent coup at the start of 2014. It was a coup supported by Western ideologues such as Anders Aslund, and one in which neo-Nazis were in the vanguard on the ground.
Also on rt.com US, Europe & NATO risk all-out war by backing unhinged Kiev regimeIt is no coincidence that Western Ukraine, where the 2014 coup was centered and where the government it hatched continues to enjoy the bulk of its support, is a part of the world where fascism has deep historical and cultural roots. This is reflected in the recrudescence and elevation of fascism as a legitimate and openly flaunted creed in this part of the world today, calling to mind German playwright Bertolt Brecht's prescient warning at the end of the Second World War: " The womb from that which crawled remains fertile ."
Strange then – or indeed perhaps not so strange – that British Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson should recently declare with the bombast of a man who spends his days memorizing the wartime speeches of Winston Churchill: " As long as Ukraine faces Russian hostilities, it will find a steadfast partner in the United Kingdom. By continuing to work together, whether through training programmes or military exercises, we help Ukraine to stand up for our shared values. "
As long as Ukraine faces Russian hostilities, it will find a steadfast partner in the United Kingdom. By continuing to work together, whether through training programmes or military exercises, we help Ukraine to stand up for our shared values. #Defence pic.twitter.com/ofqyjl817N
-- Gavin Williamson MP (@GavinWilliamson) November 21, 2018You heard that, yes? Shared values, the man said.
Williamson's stentorian words of support for the coup government in Kiev should be weighed in the balance against the analysis of US academic Stephen F. Cohen, set out in a May 2018 podcast for The Nation magazine. In it Cohen reveals the extent to which neo-Nazis are now an integral part of the Kiev government's armed forces, specifically the controversial Azov Battalion .
Even the previously mentioned Atlantic Council is unable to place democratic lipstick on the far right pig of Western Ukraine in 2018. In a June article for the think tank, Josh Cohen (no relation to Stephen F.) writes:
" Since the beginning of 2018, C14 and other far-right groups such as the Azov-affiliated National Militia, Right Sector, Karpatska Sich, and others have attacked Roma groups several times, as well as anti-fascist demonstrations, city council meetings, an event hosted by Amnesty International, art exhibitions, LGBT events, and environmental activists ."
He continues:
" After the March 8 attacks, Amnesty International warned, 'Ukraine is sinking into a chaos of uncontrolled violence posed by radical groups and their total impunity. Practically no one in the country can feel safe under these conditions. '"
Also on rt.com Another Crimean war looms as NATO provocations enter Russian waters – George GallowayGiven the 'actual' society hatched by Euromaidan in 2014, rather than the 'illusory' one touted in the West, it is prudent to point that the while the likes of Gavin Williamson may well harbor delusions of Churchillian grandeur in his capacity as Britain's defence secretary, one important distinction cannot be overlooked.
It is that while Churchill – racist and imperialist though he was – sided with Moscow against fascism, the current generation of aspiring Winstons within the British establishment are siding with fascism against Moscow.
Speaking of which, the Second World War is always a sumptuous feast when it comes to highlighting the bubble of unreality in which your average Western ideologue exists. Here, allow me to introduce John Sweeney of the BBC.
Mr Sweeney recently saw fit to tweet the following: " Thinking about the victims of Stalin's famine of 1933 and the useful idiots – then and now – who blind their eyes to the truth that throughout too much recent history the Kremlin has been little more than a killing machine ."
'Stalin's famine' of 1932-1933 was undeniably egregious, but any less so than Churchill's Bengal famine of 1943? As for the Kremlin being a 'killing machine', it was certainly Europe's good fortune that this was the case between 1941 and 1945, or else the entire continent would have been enslaved by the Nazis; turned thereafter into a mass grave the like of which would have made the Holocaust that Hitler and his hordes authored mere child's play in comparison.
With a view to saving the worst till last, newly installed British army chief, General Mark Carleton-Smith, is evidently not a man whom anyone could accuse of having a serious grasp on reality – not when according to him " Russia today indisputably represents a far greater threat to our national security than Islamic extremist threats such as al-Qaida and Isil (ISIS). "
The lobsters, as you can see, are well and truly popping.
John Wight has written for a variety of newspapers and websites, including the Independent, Morning Star, Huffington Post, Counterpunch, London
The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.
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Nov 27, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com
Fred -> Bill Herschel , a day ago
Bill Herschel -> Fred , a day ago"The Nuland Experiment .... is about to be turned over like a rock ..."Turned over by whom?
Well, theoretically by the Ukrainian people in the election that Poroshenko fears so much. It has been pointed out that even if P. loses his job, another puppet will be found.Fred -> Bill Herschel , 13 hours agoMost of the people Poroshenko fears, the ones not already in combat against his government, are ones who didn't get as much of the $5B in National Endowment for Democracy bribes as he did. They'll turn over the rocks to make sure they never get any more for what purpose?
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Nov 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
Zanon , Nov 26, 2018 2:21:32 PM | link< Live update- US Senator Urges Trump to Boost Ukraine Security Aid Before Meeting Putin>
https://sptnkne.ws/keAM
Brendan , Nov 26, 2018 2:23:45 PM | link
the pessimist , Nov 26, 2018 2:32:16 PM | link
At the UN today, US Ambassador Nikki Haley denounced what she called Russia's "outrageous violation of sovereign Ukrainian territory".
She didn't say which laws were violated or mention that the ships were Navy vessels:"Let's be clear about what is known.
Ukrainian ships set sail from one Ukrainian port to another Ukrainian port. They attempted to do so by the only possible way to go, through the Kerch Strait. Both Russia and Ukraine use the strait routinely. But this time, Russia decided to prevent passage of the Ukrainian ships, rammed them, and then opened fire on them.
This is no way for a law-abiding, civilized nation to act. Impeding Ukraine's lawful transit through the Kerch Strait is a violation under international law."
https://usun.state.gov/remarks/8784TASS article claims that the FSB posted a video of the questioning of the Ukrainian sailors. Anyone seen it?Harold Smith , Nov 26, 2018 2:51:54 PM | linkHere is a choice provocative piece by Stephen Blank linked in the Kyiv Post:
This provocation was probably planned by the evil orange clown in the white house and his handlers, for the express purpose of creating an excuse (look Ma, more "Russian aggression") that the demonic orange poseur can use to avoid meeting with Vladimir Putin.Peter AU 1 , Nov 26, 2018 3:00:29 PM | linkThe amount of assets Russia put into this operation most likely means there is a lot more going on than has been reported on.Laguerre , Nov 26, 2018 3:45:43 PM | link
From the reports I have read, this was an FSB operation. FSB duties according to wikipedia "Its main responsibilities are within the country and include counter-intelligence, internal and border security, counter-terrorism, and surveillance as well as investigating some other types of grave crimes and federal law violations."re 105the pessimist , Nov 26, 2018 4:00:29 PM | linkYou mean the Russians knew in advance what the Ukies were planning. Not difficult with ships, which move slowly.
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/parliament-approves-martial-law-in-10-oblasts-for-30-days.htmlAndrey Subbotin , Nov 26, 2018 4:01:25 PM | link"Ukraine's parliament approved late on Nov. 26 the imposition of 30 days of martial law in 10 oblasts located on the Russian border, the border with the Russian-controlled Transnistria region of Moldova and oblasts located by the Black and Azov seas.
The 276 lawmakers out of 330 present in parliament voted in favor of a bill by President Petro Poroshenko who proposed it in response to Russian escalation in the Black Sea.Ukraine's parliament approved late on Nov. 26 the imposition of 30 days of martial law in 10 oblasts located on the Russian border, the border with the Russian-controlled Transnistria region of Moldova and oblasts located by the Black and Azov seas.
The 276 lawmakers out of 330 present in parliament voted in favor of a bill by President Petro Poroshenko who proposed it in response to Russian escalation in the Black Sea. ...
... In an address to the nation that preceded the vote, Poroshenko sad martial law will take effect at 9 a.m. Kyiv time on Nov. 28. It will include Vinnytsia, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Mykolayiv, Odesa, Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Kherson oblasts.
It will enable the military to take over control over these areas and restrict the civic and political rights of their residents. The text of the bill is still now published and the lawmakers voted for it based on the oral presentation of parliament speaker Andriy Parubiy.
Parliament passed it after 10 hours of backroom discussions and disputes in the meeting hall, amid swearing and insults.
Many found it odd to impose the martial law in the fifth year of Russia's war against Ukraine and claimed Poroshenko offered the bill to postpone the presidential elections in 2019. According to recent polls, he has the highest negative rating among all the candidates and low chances to win.
Under pressure, Poroshenko agreed to limit martial law to 30 days instead the earlier planned 60 days and restrict its scope to 10 oblasts instead of the entire territory of Ukraine.
Speaking in parliament, Poroshenko also assured the lawmakers he was going to implement the martial law "explicitly in case of the Russian aggression on the ground." Otherwise, there will be no limitations of the human rights in these areas, h said."
@103 https://youtu.be/fZGbkkOOuDA - video of the questioning in Russian. No new revelations, just a few sailors saying more or less the same thing - yes, we got the orders to cross into Azov sea and intentionally ignored Russian commands.james , Nov 26, 2018 4:01:51 PM | linkThere is also a timeline published by FSB in Russian at http://www.fsb.ru/fsb/press/message/single.htm%21id%3D10438315%40fsbMessage.html that basically says
* Ukrainian ships approached, stated their intent to cross the straits and said they do not recognize Russian authority
* Russia blocked the straits, standoff continued for some time
* Russia intercepted radio calls discussing leaving slow tug behind and charging the straits with two gunboats
* The gunboats uncovered their autocannons; night approached
* at some point FSB decided it might end badly and ordered the ships to surrender. Faced with overwhelming force, and not being suicidal, they more or less did@105 laguerre.. i think the issue of some in the usa suggesting to blow up the bridge, not to mention some loose cannons in the ukraine maybe saying something similar, has put russia in a different position then otherwise... obviously they can monitor anything moving in the vicinity via water, very easily.. the tactical nuke story was probably a pile of bs, or we would have been told more by now, after russia ceased the tug...karlof1 , Nov 26, 2018 4:20:01 PM | linkhowever, perhaps the biggest issue is how the west under the leadership of the usa-uk - have wanted to ramp up the hostility towards russia in all ways... this can't go unnoticed by ordinary observers, including russia, here.. this is the type of environment that the west has intentionally cultivated... this event is a byproduct of their indiscretion..
Peter AU 1 @105--Jen , Nov 26, 2018 4:39:07 PM | linkThe rumored suitcase nuke likely activated the FSB besides the fact that some sort of provocation's been expected since the Kerch Bridge construction began. The videos I've seen show lots of commercial freighters--12-14, perhaps more--and other vessels on a lovely day to be out on the water. The provocation also conveniently upstaged any mention of the terrorist chemical attack in Aleppo and further Turkish Khashoggi drips. Although written before the provocation, Alastair Crooke's latest is of tangential import as the Il-20 shootdown's stiffening of Russian resolve wasn't limited to Syria and has likely had ripple effects throughout Russia's military and security services.
Jackrabbit @ 96:Jen , Nov 26, 2018 4:40:54 PM | linkI re-read Point 9 in The Pessimist's comment @ 47 again:
Martial law will also allow to cancel diplomatic agreements with the enemy and to seize the property of the aggressor that is on the territory of UkraineIn other words, martial law would not only allow Ukraine to continue ignoring Minsk I and II agreements but also allow it to invade and claim Crimea and the city of Sevastopol.
The naval base in Sevastopol is more valuable to the Americans than Crimea and Ukraine themselves. They also want to get rid of the Turkstream gas pipeline which opened recently.
Ahhh, got the answer to The Pessimist's query @ 54! If the Ukrainians provoke an incident with Russia, then Russia (according to their thinking) will retaliate with force, justifying Poroshenko's call for martial law and the compulsory military draft and putting Ukraine on a war footing that go with it. (This would "explain" the gas and water stoppages as well.) Martial law would enable Ukraine (along with assistance from NATO "advisors") to seize Crimea and Sevastopol. Sevastopol could be delivered to the Americans.
With the naval base transferred to the US military, the Black Sea effectively becomes a US lake and the Turkstream gas pipeline from Russia to Turkey (which would supply gas to southeast Europe and Italy) becomes a target for attack.
Re my comment @ 111: Sorry, Turkstream hasn't started yet - construction finished this month (November).james , Nov 26, 2018 4:50:09 PM | link@ jen... that would be yet another way to start ww3... i am sure the neo cons running usa-uk-west - foreign policy, are working full time to accomplish this...Ger , Nov 26, 2018 4:57:44 PM | linkJen@36Zanon , Nov 26, 2018 5:29:32 PM | link'Coming to a blog near us ...... all Ukrainians being subjected to a compulsory military draft'
Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of young military age men have fled Ukraine.... much like young white men fled the US war of aggression on Viet Nam. Ukraine does not have millions of young black children to fight their war using the draft. They will need to draft housewives and broke down farmers.
GerScotch Bingeington , Nov 26, 2018 6:01:31 PM | linkEven kids..
Teaching Kids to Kill at a Far Right Nationalist Summer Camp in Ukraine"We never aim guns at people, but we don't count separatists, little green men, occupiers from Moscow, as people. So we can and should aim at them."
To add to the many thank-you notes - thank you, b, superb job staying on top of unfolding events! Highly appreciated!karlof1 , Nov 26, 2018 6:32:49 PM | linkRussia's FSB says that among the Ukrainian crew members detained are two guys from Ukraine's domestic secret service SBU... https://sputniknews.com/russia/201811261070150606-russia-ukraine-kerch-sbu-fsb/
If this is true there can't be any denying the incident was a deliberate provocation.
Seems the best situation for Ukrainians in general who want peaceful relations with Russia and an end to the UrkoNazi nightmare would be for the Rada to declare war against Russia then, a la The Mouse That Roared , surrender and allow Russia to gain control so they could thaw out, drink water and eat decent food again. The polling data presented shows no one potential leader has anything near to a majority of people having confidence in her/him, which is the real bankruptcy of Ukraine engineered by UK/US/EU, leading one to wonder what numbers Putin would garner.exiled off mainstreet , Nov 26, 2018 6:37:01 PM | link
Perhaps now that the Poroshenko regime has ordered a general mobilisation, it is time for Russia to liquidate this regime once and for all. I recognize that this threatens nuclear war, but the mobilisation order seems to indicate that the Ukrainian regime attacked first and makes it a bit less likely that nuclear war might ensue if this problem is liquidated once and for all. Of course, the cost of redevelopment of this failed state will be humongous.Jackrabbit , Nov 26, 2018 6:45:56 PM | linkthe pessimist @107oldenyoung , Nov 26, 2018 7:03:02 PM | linkI'd guess that Porky will try to extend and expand the martial law sometime before it expires.
I'd also guess that "f*ck the EU" is still the order of the day. These provocations will be used to put more pressure on EU to increase military spending and accept US natural gas.
This provocation just seems to be straight out of the FUKUS playbook...i am not sure that poroshenko is smart enough to have laid all this out...he is just a motivated servant(election he is sure to lose) following the orders of his financiers... his willingness to pay for a "full readiness" military operation, when his people are freezing to death and have no money...seems more like a desperate servant than a leader of the people...he is expendable as far as everyone is concerned...Jen , Nov 26, 2018 7:52:51 PM | link
The legal paperwork for the martial law was completed weeks before this provocation was launched...the MSM had their stories all ready to go..
I am not certain where FUKUS is going to take this, but i think they will try to get NATO embroiled in it...that could be a real problem...The Pessimist @ 107, Jackrabbit @ 119:karlof1 , Nov 26, 2018 8:21:34 PM | linkNoticed that Poroshenko's martial law applies to those oblasts that border Russia to the north and east, the southern oblasts that border Crimea or which have a seaboard, and Vinnitsya and Odessa oblasts to the southwest because those two oblasts border the self-proclaimed maverick Transnistria Republic. So there is pressure being applied as well to Transnistria Republic to swallow its pride and return to Moldova with tail between its legs. On top of that, the oblasts being subjected to martial law are dominated by Russian-language speakers and these oblasts are also the oblasts that supported Viktor Yanukovych and his party in Presidential elections in 2010.
No oblasts in the northwest part of the country bordering EU nations (that is, the hardcore Banderite-Nazi strongholds) have been subjected to martial law.
Well, good luck to Kiev in trying to maintain a police state apparatus in the eastern, southeastern and southern parts of Ukraine. If there's one thing that will break up Ukraine as a political entity, surely it's got to be actions on Kiev's part that punish people in those oblasts just for being next door to Russia or for not being Nazi enough.
The Saker's Update reports :Peter AU 1 , Nov 26, 2018 8:27:40 PM | link"Looks like Poroshenko ran into some real problems in the Rada. Unsurprisingly, pretty much all the political parties have immediately understood what this was all about and have categorically rejected the text Poroshenko submitted. They only adopted a much watered-down version in which the martial law is introduced only for one month, not two, and the fact that the elections will take place as scheduled has been re-confirmed ." [Emphasis mine]
Poroshenko's worse than a lame duck. That the Rada acted somewhat independently is a good sign.
karlof1 110the pessimist , Nov 26, 2018 8:33:45 PM | linkThanks for the link to Crooke's article. The Khashoggi killing looks to have been a game changer for the region and Crooke sums it up well. The current Ukie provocation may well be to take the Aleppo CW attack out of the news. Around 2014 2015 In noticed that when blocked on one front, the US et al (I have started to think in terms of a five-eyes permanent state) would move to another front - Ukraine, Syria, South China Sea. The last couple of years, their attention seems to have been mostly on Syria, Iran and the middle east.
Jen@121 yes exactly. The monstrousnes of US foreign policy and its consequences still staggers and shames me, despite my cynicism. Empowering such people, providing weapons and encouragement even when they are not more directly involved.John Gilberts , Nov 26, 2018 8:55:56 PM | link"...Over the past four years over 1,000 Canadian troops (a rotation of 200 every six months) has deployed to the Ukraine to train a force that includes the best-organized neo-Nazis in the world. Far right militia members are part of the force fighting Russia-aligned groups in eastern Ukraine.Daniel C , Nov 26, 2018 9:04:22 PM | linkFive months ago Canada's military attache in Kiev, Colonel Brian Irwin, met privately with officers from the Azov battalion, who use the Nazi 'Wolfangal' symbol and praise officials who helped slaughter Jews during WWII. According to Azov, the Canadian officials concluded the June briefing by expressing 'their hopes for further fruitful cooperation.'
More generally, Canadians have fundraised for and joined rightist militias fighting inside Ukraine. For their part, top politicians have spoken alongside and marched with members of Ukraine's Right Sector, which said it was 'defending the values of White Christian Europe against the loss of the Nation and deregionalisation.'
The Neo-Nazis in Canada's Military - by Yves Engler https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/11/26/the-neo-nazis-in-canadas-military/
Didnt they try to sail a US ship near Crimea a few years back and it wound up having its electronics quickly disabled and fighter jets flown at it to show it can easily be sunk? There's provoking these guys with sanctions but if you're going to escalate it and threaten so sail a fleet into its territory, I'd expect a war. Im sure they've already prepared for this to potentially happen and that fleet would be hit with missiles from all angles. RidiculousPeter AU 1 , Nov 26, 2018 9:08:54 PM | linkJohn Gilberts 125Fernando Martinez , Nov 26, 2018 9:15:52 PM | linkNot just Canada. The five eyes permanent state utilises nazis, wahhabi's and zionists - zionist's it seems being deeply embedded in the permanent state.
Great reportingjames , Nov 26, 2018 9:22:28 PM | link
smoothies article on this topic - http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/11/poroshenkos-gambit.htmlsad canuck , Nov 26, 2018 11:01:45 PM | link@121 jen.. thanks for the more detailed analysis on that...
@125 john gilberts.. thanks... have you contacted The Honourable Harjit Singh Sajjan MP who is the dept. of defense minister on this? here is his e mail.. DND_MND@forces.gc.ca
Not much to see here. The empire's little gas monkeys got off their leash in Syria and did something stupid and embarrassing, so a diversion was required to avoid all those uncomfortable questions at the UN. Luckily the embarrassingly half-witted, submissive Ukrainian leadership is only too happy to help out the empire and sacrifice its soldiers and national interests. The alphabet agencies must ROFL at the clowns in Kyiv. Local population not so much.Hoarsewhisperer , Nov 26, 2018 11:28:47 PM | link...Peter AU 1 , Nov 26, 2018 11:50:48 PM | link
i) A vessel to starboard has right of way.
ii) A larger vessel has right of way over a smaller vessel.The small Ukrainian tug had the larger Russian vessel to its starboard (rules i and ii against it). The tug effectively cut across the bow of the larger Russian vessel and slowed down in front of it. The Russian vessel was turning away to minimise the inevitable impact arising from the deliberate actions of Ukranian captain of the tug.
Posted by: Entropy Wins | Nov 26, 2018 1:59:52 PM | 97
Thanks for the clarification/refresher.
So whilst the optics look bad, the rules obliged the tug to get out of the way. Nice.
It's an amplification of the routine pre-race jostling behind the START line before a yacht race. If your timing is lousy then you'll cross the START line before the gun goes off and be disqualified unless you go back and cross the START line AFTER the gun fired. A majority of casual Sunday yacht racers are just there to have fun and are happy to sit well back from the line with limp sails and yank them tight when the gun has fired, and leave the jostling to the fanatics.
Hoarsewhisperer 131Apart from the ramming of the tug boat, it seems the Ukie navy vessels were fired on. Whatever intel Russia had, they were there to stop the pricks rather than just a nice day on the water.
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Nov 27, 2018 | www.unz.com
President Donald Trump's recent statement on the Jamal Khashoggi killing by Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince might well be considered a metaphor for his foreign policy. Several commentators have suggested that the text appears to be something that Trump wrote himself without any adult supervision, similar to the poorly expressed random arguments presented in his tweeting only longer. That might be the case, but it would not be wise to dismiss the document as merely frivolous or misguided as it does in reality express the kind of thinking that has produced a foreign policy that seems to drift randomly to no real end, a kind of leaderless creative destruction of the United States as a world power.
Lord Palmerston, Prime Minister of Britain in the mid nineteenth century, famously said that "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests."The United States currently has neither real friends nor any clearly defined interests. It is, however, infested with parasites that have convinced an at-drift America that their causes are identical to the interests of the United States. Leading the charge to reduce the U.S. to "bitch" status, as Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard has artfully put it , are Israel and Saudi Arabia, but there are many other countries, alliances and advocacy groups that have learned how to subvert and direct the "leader of the free world."
Trump's memo on the Saudis begins with the headline "The world is a very dangerous place!" Indeed, it is and behavior by the three occupants of the White House since 2000 is largely to blame. It is difficult to find a part of the world where an actual American interest is being served by Washington's foreign and global security policies. Indeed, a national security policy that sees competitors and adversaries as enemies in a military sense has made nuclear war, unthinkable since the demise of the Soviet Union in 1991, thinkable once again. The fact that no one is the media or in political circles is even talking about that terrible danger suggests that war has again become mainstreamed, tacitly benefiting from bipartisan acceptance of it as a viable foreign policy tool by the media, in the U.S. Congress and also in the White House.
The part of the world where American meddling coupled with ignorance has produced the worst result is inevitably the Middle East...
... ... ...
All of the White House's actions have one thing in common and that is that they do not benefit Americans in any way unless one works for a weapons manufacturer, and that is not even taking into consideration the dead soldiers and civilians and the massive debt that has been incurred to intervene all over the world. One might also add that most of America's interventions are built on deliberate lies by the government and its associated media, intended to increase tension and create a casus belli where none exists.
So what is to be done as it often seems that the best thing Trump has going for him is that he is not Hillary Clinton? First of all, a comprehensive rethink of what the real interests of the United States are in the world arena is past due. America is less safe now than it was in 2001 as it continues to make enemies with its blundering everywhere it goes. There are now four times as many designated terrorists as there were in 2001, active in 70 countries. One would quite plausibly soon arrive at George Washington's dictum in his Farewell Address , counseling his countrymen to "observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all." And Washington might have somehow foreseen the poisonous relationships with Israel and the Saudis when he warned that " a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification."
George Washington or any of the other Founders would be appalled to see an America with 800 military bases overseas, allegedly for self-defense. The transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the military industrial complex and related entities like Wall Street has been catastrophic. The United States does not need to protect Israel and Saudi Arabia, two countries that are armed to the teeth and well able to defend themselves. Nor does it have to be in Syria and Afghanistan. And
If the United States were to withdraw its military from the Middle East and the rest of Asia tomorrow, it would be to nearly everyone's benefit. If the armed forces were to be subsequently reduced to a level sufficient to defend the United States it would put money back in the pockets of Americans and end the continuous fearmongering through surfacing of "threats" by career militarists justifying the bloated budgets.
... ... ...
Philip M. Giraldi, Ph.D., is Executive Director of the Council for the National Interest, a 501(c)3 tax deductible educational foundation that seeks a more interests inform@cnionline.org .
anon [355] Disclaimer , says: November 27, 2018 at 5:38 am GMT
US foreign policy is controlled by a few key ethnic groups and (to a lesser degree) the military-industrial complex.Justsaying , says: November 27, 2018 at 6:04 am GMTZ-man , says: November 27, 2018 at 9:11 am GMTbut even small steps in the right direction could initiate a gradual process of turning the United States into a more normal country in its relationships with the rest of the world rather than a universal predator and bully.
Cautious optimism may be better than none, but futile nonetheless. Bullying, dispossession, slavery and genocide constitute the very bedrock, the essence and soul of the founding of our country.
To expect mutations -- no matter how slow or fast in a trait that appears deeply embedded in our DNA is to be naive. Add to that the intractable stranglehold Zionists and organized world Jewry has on our nuts and decision making. A more congruent convergence of histories and DNAs would be hard to come by among other nations. Truth be told we simply know of no other kinder, gentler alternatives to perpetual war and destruction as the cornerstone of our foreign policy. Normality? Not in my lifetime.
Great article and I will spread it around.anon [336] Disclaimer , says: November 27, 2018 at 9:26 am GMTYour CNI and 'If Americans Knew' informed me about Rand Paul's courageous move. I plan to call his office today to give him encouragement and call my Senators and Representative to urge them to support him (fat chance of that but I have to stick it in their face).
Hey, how about a Rand Paul-Tulsi Gabbard fusion ticket in 2024, not a bad idea, IMHO.
Going back to the Administration you can see the slimy Zionist hands of Steven Miller on all of those foreign policy statements. Trump is allowing this because he has to protect his flanks from Zionists, Christian or otherwise. He might be just giving Miller just enough rope to jettison him (wishful thinking on my part). Or he doesn't care or is unaware of the texts, a possibility.
1. Because that defies human nature. See all of history if you disagree.jilles dykstra , says: November 27, 2018 at 9:30 am GMT2. America doesn't have a policy because America is no longer a real nation. It's an empire filled with diverse groups of peoples who all hate each other and want to use the power of the government for the benefit of their overseas co-ethnics.
The beginning of USA foreign policy for me is the 1820 or 1830 Monroe Declaration: south America is our backyard, keep out. Few people know that at the time European countries considered war on the USA because of this beginning of world domination. When I told this to a USA correspondent the reply was 'but this declaration still is taught here in glowing terms'.Jim Christian , says: November 27, 2018 at 9:43 am GMTWhat we saw then was the case until Obama, USA foreign policy was for internal political reasons. As Hollings stated in 2004 'Bush promising AIPAC the war on Iraq, that is politics'. No empire ever, as far as I know, ever was in the comfortable position to be able to let foreign policy to be decided (almost) completely by internal politics.
This changed during the Obama reign, the two war standard had to be lowered to one and a half. All of a sudden the USA had to develop a foreign policy, a policy that had to take into consideration the world outside the USA. Not the whole USA understands this, the die hards of Deep State in the lead.
What a half war accomplishes we see, my opinion, in Syria, a half war does not bring victory on an enemy who wages a whole war.
Assad is still there, Russia has airforce and naval bases in Syria.Normally, as any history book explains, foreign policy of a country is decided on in secret by a few people. British preparations for both WWI and WWII included detailed technical talks with both the USA and France, not even all cabinet members knew about it. One of Trump's difficulties is that Deep State does not at all has the intention of letting the president decide on foreign policy, at the time of FDR he did what he liked, though, if one reads for example Baruch's memoirs, in close cooperation with the Deep State that then existed.
The question 'why do we not leave the rest of the world alone', hardly ever asked. The USA is nearly autarcic, foreign trade, from memory, some five percent of national income, a very luxurious position. But of course, leaving the rest of the world alone, huge internal consequences, as Hinckley explains with an example, politically impossible to stop the development of a bomber judged to be superfluous.
Barbara Hinckley Sheldon Goldman, American Politics and Government, Glenview Ill.,1990
Good luck. A fight over resources with the biggest consumer of resources, the People That Kill People and all their little buddies in the Alphabet Soup of Law Enforcement and Intelligence Depravity..Michael Kenny , says: November 27, 2018 at 10:10 am GMTThat could get a fella hurt. Ask Jack and Bob Kennedy.
"The bilateral relationship between the U.S. and Russia is now worse than it was towards the end of the Cold War". Classic American cold warrior mentality. The present-day Russian Federation is assimilated to the former Soviet Union.Johnny Rottenborough , says: Website November 27, 2018 at 11:31 am GMTTragically for America, and the West in general, President Trump is unrecognizable from candidate Trump :'This is a crossroads in the history of our civilization that will determine whether or not we the people reclaim control over our government. The political establishment that is trying to stop us is the same group responsible for our disastrous trade deals, massive illegal immigration and economic and foreign policies that have bled our country dry Their financial resources are virtually unlimited, their political resources are unlimited, their media resources are unmatched, and most importantly, the depths of their immorality is absolutely unlimited.'
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Nov 27, 2018 | news.antiwar.com
Officials say move stops short of a declaration of war
Posted on November 26, 2018 Categories News Tags Russia , Ukraine Following up on Sunday's maritime incident in the Sea of Azov, the Ukrainian parliament voted Monday on a declaration of martial law. They are presenting this as a "partial mobilization" of the military as officials hype the possibility of war with Russia.
The martial law will formally begin on Wednesday, and last for 30 days. President Petro Poroshenko said he intends to respect the rights of individual Ukrainian citizens during this period.
Importantly, Ukrainian officials are emphasizing that this move is short of a declaration of war on Russia. On Sunday, officials had said the National Security and Defense Council was meeting and intended to declare a "state of war," though it does not appear any public declaration happened.
On Sunday, three Ukrainian ships crossed into Russian territorial waters, and were seized. Russia said this area of the Sea of Azov was closed for security reasons. Ukraine is demanding the return of the ships and the sailors. Russia says they are temporarily impounded, and that the three sailors wounded in the incident have already been treated and are in no medical danger .
Russian officials are downplaying the incident as a minor one, while Ukrainian officials are already identifying a series of border areas that they expect ground troops to invade. Ukraine has been predicting a Russian invasion for years.
As is often the case, the US and NATO are embracing the Ukrainian narrative, and condemning Russia. Such condemnations come as a matter of course, but so far, are stopping short of any threats to escalate this militarily into a global war.
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Nov 26, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com
I don't know about that. The whole thing was about martial law--Poroshenko barely clings to power--and he got it now. Any provocation in Azov Sea will be met fully within appropriate protocols (namely Law on the State Border) and ROE of other forces, so militarily speaking there was nothing extraordinary. I really doubt this version with SADM--comes across as a complete baloney.TTG -> smoothieX12 . , 7 hours agoI agree the SADM story is more likely just a crazy conspiracy theory. The commenter could even be a Russian or Russian supporter trying to muddy the waters on his own, painting the Ukrainians as full on crazies. I believe this was a preplanned Ukrainian provocation to garner international support in her effort to get unfettered passage through the Kerch Strait. Russia has been increasing her inspections of ships transiting the Strait this year. That is Russia's right under the 2003 agreement, international and maritime laws.smoothieX12 . -> TTG , 6 hours agoGrazhdanochka -> TTG , 4 hours agopainting the Ukrainians as full on crazies.Actually, there is a case to be made (obviously without any conspiracy theories) of mind-boggling stupidity of contemporary Ukraine's "elites". This is even apart from sheer military incompetence.
Ukraine already has unfettered access through Kerch beyond usual protocol and procedures, they have even admitted so before with their Ships making the transit... You are correct as per the Agreements, but one could not expect to ignore such Procedures even with allied States, let alone one that supposedly is 'at war' withJack -> TTG , 4 hours agoWith Poroshenko polling at 8% for the election in 2 months it is very convenient to use any excuse to declare martial law and postpone the election. Would be interesting to see how his political opponents respond. In any case the "Russia, Russia evil" crowd in the west will find this another opportunity to create more hysteria and take actions to "punish" Russia.Kooshy -> smoothieX12 . , an hour agoSX12Chris Chuba -> smoothieX12 . , 3 hours agoAfter the 2014 coup do you believe or do you consider Ukraine to be (politically) a failed state.
Good of Russia for sake of world to stand up to westerners push and provocations. Eversince fall of USSR a bunch of crazy neocon warmongers our running US/western foreign policy. Good to see Russia under Putin, has woke up to the reality that she can't have a friend (partner) in the west, unless she agrees to become a subservient to the interests of the US/West
If the Ukrainians (goaded on by some NATO nutjob) really wanted to destroy the bridge, they would try their level best to make it look like some 'patriot' living under the yoke of Russian oppression in Crimea damaged the bridge. The last thing they would do is create a clear link to a Ukrainian military vessel.James Thomas -> smoothieX12 . , 8 hours agosmoothieX12,smoothieX12 . -> James Thomas , 6 hours agoDo you have anything to say about the prospects for Ukraine electing a government willing to negotiate with Russia? I don't think the last few years have been all that good for the average Ukrainian.
Mad_Max22 , 7 hours agoabout the prospects for Ukraine electing a government willing to negotiate with RussiaProbability of that is approaching zero. US will not allow this anyway even if to imagine that such prospects do exist. In fact, this latest provocation could be, as one of the commenters at Unz short time ago astutely observed, an attempt by Trump to avoid meeting with Putin at G-20. Realistically speaking, at this stage there is really nothing to talk about between the US and Russia.
One would have to be certifiable to believe that an attack on that bridge would not trigger an overwhelming military attack by Russia on the Ukraine. This would not be "brinkmanship." This would be insane. Maybe there is some insanity lurking in the halls of power in the Ukraine, would anyone be surprised. Maybe there is some insanity lurking closer to home. The temperament of John Brennan on recent display deoesn't exactly inspire much confidence.EEngineer , 19 hours agoMadame Nuland and her erstwhile cabal of neo-cons might have given some thought to such unpredictable eventualities when we were pouring the big dough into the Ukraine to effect regime change in a country that we may be sure she knew next to nothing about in actuality. No, Madame, we are not all Ukrainians now, nor, God willing, will we ever be. These dingbats put one in mind of Charlie Chaplin blithly bouncing the globe about over his head and doing his best to stay beneath it.
Did these so called area experts down there in la la land really think that Russia would see Sevastopol made a port of call for NATO without so much as a whimper? I sometimes wonder whether a single person sitting around the big table said, "you know, maybe overthrowing the government of the Ukraine is not such a great idea, it being so close to Russia, and all..."
You can't hide the radioactive residue of a nuclear detonation, no matter how small. They also have a characteristic fingerprint that will be identifiable. Therefor using one starts WWIII.JoeC , 9 hours agoThat's not to say someone didn't think it would be clever to provoke the Russians into acting to make them look like an aggressor. Or perhaps to gauge their intelligence penetration of NATO and or Ukrainian operations...
For some time now I've been of the opinion that there are great many fools who really want a hot war with Russia.
I just finished watching the "The Unknown War", the Russian equivalent of the BBC's "The World At War" series on WWII. Both were made in the 1970's while most of the survivors were still alive to tell their tales. It would seem they have been ignored by those who most need to see them...
Colonel Cassad's website suggests this was a political provocation to support the introduction of martial law in Ukraine - apparently to help Poroshenko stay in office. It also cites a report that the only casualty was a crew member on one of the Ukraine vessels shot by the captain when the crew member refused orders to open fire on a Russian vessel..tjfxh , 19 hours agoThis seems to make more sense, without the drama of a small nuke.Bill Herschel , 3 hours agoThe Vineyard of the Saker Kerch Provocation – Causes and Consequences http://thesaker.is/kerch-pr... Rostislav Ishchenko Translated by Ollie Richardson and Angelina Siard
Update:
Here is the latest from The Saker, who thinks that it's also about Ukrainian politics and the upcoming election there. This is hardly news to anyone that has been following this. Poroshenko is in a very bad position and is forced by circumstances to act, even if rashly, since he faces probable prosecution for corruption if he loses, which is a foregone conclusion given the numbers.
About the latest Ukronazi provocation in the Kerch strait by The Saker http://thesaker.is/about-th...
Baloney? In the first place, very economical. You're British Special Forces. You've studied how to get the bridge down and stay down. This was the only choice that was deliverable without fingerprints. A tugboat forsooth. And, btw, in the video that has sound, someone is really screaming and yelling in panic mode, I suspect it is the captain of the tug. Would you scream and yell if you were carrying a SADM and a Russian warship was about to ram you? Oh, and who would they blame? Iran. Simple. Why? Because it's Iran.Pat Lang Mod -> Bill Herschel , an hour agoRussia doesn't react hard unless there's something there. And they have really, really good intelligence, I'm convinced of it. And who would plant this story, which, with the exception of the nuclear dimension of the weapon, is trivially believable.
Oh, and Ukraine desperately, desperately needs to change the subject. The Nuland Experiment (a great movie title) has failed miserably and is about to be turned over like a rock and the slimy creatures are going to come pouring forth. Europe is very much coming around to the belief that they want nothing to do with Ukraine, but this "event" put NATO into the conversation, and NATO is the big one. "Ukraine needs to be part of NATO!"
if the tug was captured, and a SADM is involved, has it fallen into Russian hands?
Off topic, TTG. If you have not read The Riddle of the Sands by Erskine Childers, please read it now. It was published in 1903 and is considered to be the first spy novel. It takes place in a sailboat. I have read it well over ten times. On any list of the five best novels, it must appear.
TTG is US Army Special Forces. You don't know that?English Outsider , 6 hours agoThere are also reports of proposed increases in British naval forces in the Ukraine for training purposes - https://www.gov.uk/governme...Fred S , 9 hours agoAlso in the Baltic - https://www.army.mod.uk/dep...
Brief summary - http://www.warfare.today/20...
I do not understand why we and others send enough to hearten the Ukrainians and the surrounding NATO countries but not enough to make a difference should serious hostilities break out. For PR or for real?
These people sound like idiots. All they need is a freighter not a bomb.
http://wusfnews.wusf.usf.ed...
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Nov 26, 2018 | nationalinterest.org
... in 2014, Russia started to build a bridge over the Kerch Strait to connect the Peninsula to the Russian mainland, as attempts to build a land connection by conquering Ukraine's Sea of Azov coastline had previously failed. To try and stop the trans-Kerch bridge and grant access for its vessels through the straits, Ukraine sued Russia by invoking the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.The danger of military escalation between Russia and Ukraine, with all of its unforeseeable consequences, is real and rising.
Russia is largely unaware of this, as it has moved its attention away from Ukraine and towards operations in Syria, countering U.S. efforts to modernize its nuclear arsenal, and improving Russian gas supply capabilities to the European Union and Germany .
At the same time, mainly for domestic purposes, Russian state-controlled media continues to trash the Ukrainian government while celebrating the finalization of the Kerch bridge and supposed economic miracles in Crimea.
Such triumphalism fans the flames of revanchism in Ukraine. The list of grievances in Ukraine is as long as it is understandable. Crimea remains occupied, and the West has quietly acquiesced to this fact by making sure that existing sanctions are primarily tied to advances in the Minsk process over Donbass, not Crimea. Ironically, no such advances in the Minsk framework taken place, which suits Russian interests, but remains a thorn in Ukraine's side, where the Minsk process is seen as illegitimate to begin with.
At the same time, Russian president Vladimir Putin has permitted the stationing of bombers and Iskander missiles in Crimea, both of which are dual-capable missile delivery systems. Since 2014, Russian support for the Putin regime is less dependent on the country's economic well-being, and more so on the continued performance of Russia as a great power. While the effect is declining, the annexation of Crimea has long boosted Putin's popularity. Therefore, Russia is unlikely to back down in a crisis with Ukraine.
Ukraine, simultaneously, has significantly beefed up its military forces and improved its on-the-ground-control. The anti-tank Javelin launchers provided by the United States are only a small part of these efforts. A replication of the confused and feeble Ukrainian response in 2014 is unlikely. The Ukrainian military is now even regarded by some in Kyiv as a possible tool to establish some new facts on the ground.
However, Ukrainian domestic politics worsen the situation. The country will hold presidential elections in March 2019. In the most recent polls, incumbent president Petro Poroshenko trails his main competitor Yulia Tymoshenko, who has made Donbass, Crimea, and Russia core topics in her attacks on Poroshenko.
Tymoshenko's strategy, the stalling Minsk process, Ukraine's ongoing economic woes, rampant corruption, and allegations of Poroshenko being involved in shady business deals increasingly narrow down the incumbent's options for holding on to power. His most promising option is to present himself as a successful, or at least assertive, war president. Poroshenko's recent move to impose martial law corroborates this view. Considering the traditionally cut-throat nature of Ukraine's elite struggles and Yulia Tymoshenko's questionable record, there is little reason to be optimistic.
The West, at the same time, looks inward and has shown little interest in effectively ameliorating the danger of military escalation between Ukraine and Russia. This is likely to continue, due to the ongoing twists and turns surrounding Trump and the continuing Brexit process in Europe. Incidentally, the United Kingdom is likely to formally leave the European Union two days before the Ukrainian presidential election.
War over Ukraine might not be very likely, but the danger is real.
Jonas J. Driedger is a German policy analyst at the European University Institute in Florence, Italy. He is also currently a visiting scholar at the Higher School of Economics in Moscow and partakes in the Alfa Fellowship Program. He specializes in foreign and security policy with a focus on Germany, the European Union and Russia. His analyses were published in The National Interest, Politico Europe, per Concordiam, EUObserver, and EurActiv. The views expressed in this article are solely his own.
Vladdy • 6 hours ago ,
Georgy Platoshin Vladdy • 5 hours ago ,Mr.Parashenko has rating 0% in his land because Ukrainian economy is ruined by him. And president elections are coming. He just needs marital law to prevent president elections and stay on Ukrainian throne. Otherwise he has full chance to be imprisoned for corruption. That's why yesterday he intervened Russian territorial waters. Expectedly Russia prevented intervention and arrested the boats. And today Parashenko already implemented marital law! Voi la! :-)
Vladdy Georgy Platoshin • 5 hours ago ,Hello Troll!
How's it going, how much money do you get for your comments in the National interest???
I'm kidding, I'm not interested in your answers. DDDRobert McMaster • 7 hours ago ,Gosha, you are !diot :-)
Mark Thomason Robert McMaster • 4 hours ago ,As certified western toadies the Ukies will howl about anything. The Russians therefore should deliver then a serious whacking. The west can't do a thing having shot it wad long ago.
Good or bad, that seems to be coming. It would be like the Georgia war, lunacy urged on by the West.
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Nov 26, 2018 | therealnews.com
Col. Lawrence Wilkerson says that the latest Ukraine crisis, in which Russia is holding Ukrainian navy boats, was foreseeable and likely, given NATO's constant encroachment on Russia's border region
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Nov 24, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
British Government Runs Secret Anti-Russian Smear Campaigns Steveg , Nov 24, 2018 11:43:44 AM | link
In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia propaganda into the western media stream.
We have already seen many consequences of this and similar programs which are designed to smear anyone who does not follow the anti-Russian government lines. The 'Russian collusion' smear campaign against Donald Trump based on the Steele dossier was also a largely British operation but seems to be part of a different project.
The ' Integrity Initiative ' builds 'cluster' or contact groups of trusted journalists, military personal, academics and lobbyists within foreign countries. These people get alerts via social media to take action when the British center perceives a need.
On June 7 it took the the Spanish cluster only a few hours to derail the appointment of Perto Banos as the Director of the National Security Department in Spain. The cluster determined that he had a too positive view of Russia and launched a coordinated social media smear campaign (pdf) against him.
biggerThe Initiative and its operations were unveiled when someone liberated some of its documents, including its budget applications to the British Foreign Office, and posted them under the 'Anonymous' label at cyberguerrilla.org .
The Initiative is nominally run under the (government financed) non-government-organisation The Institute For Statecraft . Its internal handbook (pdf) describes its purpose:
The Integrity Initiative was set up in autumn 2015 by The Institute for Statecraft in cooperation with the Free University of Brussels (VUB) to bring to the attention of politicians, policy-makers, opinion leaders and other interested parties the threat posed by Russia to democratic institutions in the United Kingdom, across Europe and North America.It lists Bellingcat and the Atlantic Council as "partner organisations" and promises that:
Cluster members will be sent to educational sessions abroad to improve the technical competence of the cluster to deal with disinformation and strengthen bonds in the cluster community. [...] (Events with DFR Digital Sherlocks, Bellingcat, EuVsDisinfo, Buzzfeed, Irex, Detector Media, Stopfake, LT MOD Stratcom – add more names and propose cluster participants as you desire).The Initiatives Orwellian slogan is 'Defending Democracy Against Disinformation'. It covers European countries, the UK, the U.S. and Canada and seems to want to expand to the Middle East.
On its About page it claims: "We are not a government body but we do work with government departments and agencies who share our aims." The now published budget plans show that more than 95% of the Initiative's funding is coming directly from the British government, NATO and the U.S. State Department. All the 'contact persons' for creating 'clusters' in foreign countries are British embassy officers. It amounts to a foreign influence campaign by the British government that hides behind a 'civil society' NGO.
The organisation is led by one Chris N. Donnelly who receives (pdf) £8,100 per month for creating the smear campaign network.
Chris Donnelly - Pic via EuromaidanpressFrom its 2017/18 budget application (pdf) we learn how the Initiative works:
To counter Russian disinformation and malign influence in Europe by: expanding the knowledge base; harnessing existing expertise, and; establishing a network of networks of experts, opinion formers and policy makers, to educate national audiences in the threat and to help build national capacities to counter it .The Initiative has a black and white view that is based on a "we are the good ones" illusion. When "we" 'educate the public' it is legitimate work. When others do similar, it its disinformation. That is of course not the reality. The Initiative's existence itself, created to secretly manipulate the public, is proof that such a view is wrong.
If its work were as legit as it wants to be seen, why would the Foreign Office run it from behind the curtain as an NGO? The Initiative is not the only such operation. It's applications seek funding from a larger "Russian Language Strategic Communication Programme" run by the Foreign Office.
The 2017/18 budget application sought FCO funding of £480,635. It received £102,000 in co-funding from NATO and the Lithuanian Ministry of Defense. The 2018/19 budget application shows a planned spending (pdf) of £1,961,000.00. The co-sponsors this year are again NATO and the Lithuanian MoD, but also include (pdf) the U.S. State Department with £250,000 and Facebook with £100,000. The budget lays out a strong cooperation with the local military of each country. It notes that NATO is also generous in financing the local clusters.
One of the liberated papers of the Initiative is a talking points memo labeled Top 3 Deliverable for FCO (pdf):
- Developing and proving the cluster concept and methodology, setting up clusters in a range of countries with different circumstances
- Making people (in Government, think tanks, military, journalists) see the big picture, making people acknowledge that we are under concerted, deliberate hybrid attack by Russia
- Increasing the speed of response, mobilising the network to activism in pursuit of the "golden minute"
Under top 1, setting up clusters, a subitem reads:
- Connects media with academia with policy makers with practitioners in a country to impact on policy and society: ( Jelena Milic silencing pro-kremlin voices on Serbian TV )Defending Democracy by silencing certain voices on public TV seems to be a self-contradicting concept.
Another subitem notes how the Initiative secretly influences foreign governments:
We engage only very discreetly with governments, based entirely on trusted personal contacts, specifically to ensure that they do not come to see our work as a problem, and to try to influence them gently, as befits an independent NGO operation like ours, viz;
- Germany, via the Zentrum Liberale Moderne to the Chancellor's Office and MOD
- Netherlands, via the HCSS to the MOD
- Poland and Romania, at desk level into their MFAs via their NATO Reps
- Spain, via special advisers, into the MOD and PM's office (NB this may change very soon with the new Government)
- Norway, via personal contacts into the MOD
- HQ NATO, via the Policy Planning Unit into the Sec Gen's office.
We have latent contacts into other governments which we will activate as needs be as the clusters develop.A look at the 'clusters' set up in U.S. and UK shows some prominent names.
biggerMembers of the Atlantic Council, which has a contract to censor Facebook posts , appear on several cluster lists. The UK core cluster also includes some prominent names like tax fraudster William Browder , the daft Atlantic Council shill Ben Nimmo and the neo-conservative Washington Post columnist Anne Applebaum. One person of interest is Andrew Wood who handed the Steele 'dirty dossier' to Senator John McCain to smear Donald Trump over alleged relations with Russia. A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times, Neil Buckley from the FT and Jonathan Marcus of the BBC.
bigger - biggerA ' Cluster Roundup ' (pdf) from July 2018 details its activities in at least 35 countries. Another file reveals (pdf) the local partnering institutions and individuals involved in the programs.
The Initiatives Guide to Countering Russian Information (pdf) is a rather funny read. It lists the downing of flight MH 17 by a Ukranian BUK missile, the fake chemical incident in Khan Sheikhoun and the Skripal Affair as examples for "Russian disinformation". But at least two of these events, Khan Sheikun via the UK run White Helmets and the Skripal affair, are evidently products of British intelligence disinformation operations.
The probably most interesting papers of the whole stash is the 'Project Plan' laid out at pages 7-40 of the 2018 budget application v2 (pdf). Under 'Sustainability' it notes:
The programme is proposed to run until at least March 2019, to ensure that the clusters established in each country have sufficient time to take root, find funding, and demonstrate their effectiveness. FCO funding for Phase 2 will enable the activities to be expanded in scale, reach and scope. As clusters have established themselves, they have begun to access local sources of funding. But this is a slow process and harder in some countries than others. HQ NATO PDD [Public Diplomacy Division] has proved a reliable source of funding for national clusters. The ATA [Atlantic Treaty Association] promises to be the same, giving access to other pots of money within NATO and member nations. Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow.The programme has begun to create a critical mass of individuals from a cross society (think tanks, academia, politics, the media, government and the military) whose work is proving to be mutually reinforcing . Creating the network of networks has given each national group local coherence, credibility and reach, as well as good international access. Together, these conditions, plus the growing awareness within governments of the need for this work, should guarantee the continuity of the work under various auspices and in various forms.
The third part of the budget application (pdf) list the various activities, their output and outcome. The budget plan includes a section that describes 'Risks' to the initiative. These include hacking of the Initiatives IT as well as:
Adverse publicity generated by Russia or by supporters of Russia in target countries, or by political and interest groups affected by the work of the programme, aimed at discrediting the programme or its participants, or to create political embarrassment.We hope that this piece contributes to such embarrassment.
Posted by b on November 24, 2018 at 11:24 AM | Permalink
Comments Perfidious ALbion!
When will we learn?
pretzelattack , Nov 24, 2018 11:44:00 AM | link
Coincidentally, or not, i just saw this article at the guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/23/robert-mueller-profile-donald-trump-russia-investigation.Anya , Nov 24, 2018 11:57:00 AM | linkThe British government has been running a serious meddling into the US affairs:james , Nov 24, 2018 11:58:02 AM | link
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-23/mi6-scrambling-stop-trump-releasing-classified-docs-russia-probe"The UK's Secret Intelligence Service, otherwise known as MI6, has been scrambling to prevent President Trump from publishing classified materials linked to the Russian election meddling investigation. ... much of the espionage performed on the Trump campaign was conducted on UK soil throughout 2016."
A Steele & Skrupal's anti-Russian / anti-Trump saga: https://spectator.org/big-dots-do-they-connect/
"Gregory R. Copley, editor and publisher of Defense & Foreign Affairs, posited that Sergei Skripal is the unnamed Russian intelligence source in the Steele dossier. ... In Skripal's pseudo-country-gentleman retirement, the ex-GRU-MI6 double agent was selling custom-made "Russian intelligence"; he had fabricated "material" that went into the Steele dossier..."
For M16 to expose this level of stupidity is stunning.
thanks b....Ingrian , Nov 24, 2018 12:03:55 PM | linkthis movement in the west by gov'ts to pay for generating lies, hate and propaganda towards russia is really sick... it is perfect for the military industrial complex corporations though and they seem to be calling the shots in the west, much more so then the voice of the ordinary person who is not interested in war.. i guess the idea is to get the ordinary people to think in terms of hating another country based on lies and that this would be a good thing... it is very sad what uk / usa leadership in the past century has come down to here.... i can only hope that info releases like this will hasten it's demise...
Seems to me that this shows the primacy of the City of London, with its offshore network of illicit capital accumulation, within Britain. It is a state within a state or even a financial empire within a state, which, for deep historical reasons isn't subject to the same laws as the rest of the UK.james , Nov 24, 2018 12:15:31 PM | linkThe UK's pathological obsession with Russia only makes sense to me as the city's insistence on continued 90s style appropriation of Russia's wealth
@6 ingrian... things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit Russia fully, as they'd intended...et Al , Nov 24, 2018 12:20:09 PM | linkForthestate , Nov 24, 2018 12:26:09 PM | linkLet the Doxx wars begin! Sure, Anonymous is not Russian but it will surely now be targeted and smeared as such which would show that it has hit a nerve. British hypocrisy publicly called out. How this all unravels is one to watch. Extra large popcorn and soda for me.
I think we've all noticed the euro-asslantic press (and friends) on behalf of, willingly and in cooperation with the British intelligence et al 'calling out' numerous Russians as G(R)U/spies/whatever for a while now yet providing less than a shred of credible evidence.
It seems to me that the UK has far more to lose from doxxing than Russia does. The interference in sovereign allied states to 'manage' who the UK thinks they should appoint does not bode well for such relations.
Meanwhile in Brussels they are having their cake and eating it, i.e. bemoaning Europe's 'weak response' to Russian propaganda:
BTW, did anyone read Wired UK's current advertorial (nov 14) by Carl Miller for Brigade 77?
"A separate subcluster of so-called journalists names Deborah Haynes, David Aaronovitch of the London Times and Neil Buckley from the FT." Subcluster. Love it. Just how crap do you have to be to fail to make it to membership of a full cluster of smear merchants?worldblee , Nov 24, 2018 12:33:05 PM | linkYet another example of the pot calling the kettle black when in fact the kettle may not be black at all; it's just the pot making up things. "These Russian criminals are using propaganda to show (truths) like the fact the DNC and Clinton campaigns colluded to prevent Sanders from being nominated, so we need to establish a clandestine propaganda network to establish that the Russians are running propaganda!"psychohistorian , Nov 24, 2018 12:34:32 PM | linkplantman , Nov 24, 2018 12:36:48 PM | link....full cluster of smear merchants". May all the clusters of smear merchants be exposed to the public as the acolytes of evil they are.
m , Nov 24, 2018 12:40:07 PM | link"In 2015 the government of Britain launched a secret operation to insert anti-Russia propaganda into the western media stream."I doubt very seriously that the British launched this operation without the CIA's implicit and explicit support. This has all the markings of a John Brennan operation that has been launched stealthily to prevent anyone from knowing its real origins.
The Brits don't act alone, and a project of this magnitude did not begin without Langley's explicit approval.
Now check out the wording in the above document: "Funding from institutional and national governmental sources in the US has been delayed by internal disputes within the US government, but w.e.f. March 2018 that deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow." Think about that. What would have blocked the flow of USG support for this project?? Why, the allegations of collusion against Trump, of course. Naturally, the Republicans are not going to provide money to an operation that threatens to destroy the head of their own party. So, there has been no bipartisan agreement on funding for anti-Russia propaganda
BUT...the author assures us that the "deadlock seems to have been resolved and funding should now flow" Huh?? In other words, the fix is in. Mueller will pardon Trump on collusion charges but the propaganda campaign against Russia will continue...with the full support of both parties. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it...
This mob was created in the autumn of 2015, according to their site. That would have been about the time -- probably just after -- the Russians intervened in Syria. The Brits had plans for an invasion of Syria in 2009, according to their fave Guardian fish wrap.Jackrabbit , Nov 24, 2018 12:40:58 PM | linkA lot of sour grapes with this so-called 'integrity initiative', IMO. BP was behind a lot of this, I would also think. When Assad pulled the plug on the pipeline through the Levant in 2009, the Brits hacked up a fur ball. It's gone downhill for them ever since. Couldn't happen to a nicer lot. If you can't invade or beat them with proxies, you can at least call them names.
AnyaCyril , Nov 24, 2018 1:10:13 PM | linkPat Lang posted a report that strongly implies that charges of Russian influence on Trump are a deliberate falsification: THE CHIMERA OF DONALD TRUMP, RUSSIAN MONEY LAUNDERER :
If Trump was taking dirty money or engaged in criminal activity with Russians then he was doing it with Felix Sater, who was under the control of the FBI... And who was in charge of the FBI during all of the time that Sater was a signed up FBI snitch? You got it -- Robert Mueller (2001 thru 2013) ...It seems quite possible that what is alleged as "Russian meddling" is actually CIA-MI6 meddling, including:
Steele dossier: To create suspicion in government, media, and later the publicAs I have said before, MAGA is a POLICY RESPONSE to the challenge from Russia and China. The election of a Republican faux populist was necessary and Trump, despite his many flaws, was the best candidate for the job.Leaking of DNC emails to Wikileaks (but calling it a "hack"): To help with election of Trump and link Wikileaks (as agent) to Russian election meddling
Cambridge Analytica: To provide necessary reasoning for Trump's (certain) win of the electoral college.
Note: We later found that dozens of firms had undue access to Facebook data. Why did the campaign turn to a British firm instead of an American firm? Well, it had to be a British firm if MI6 was running the (supposed) Facebook targeting for CIA.
The Integrity Initiative's goal is to defend democracy against the truth about Russia. All this is so Orwellian. When will we get the Ministry of Love?Russ , Nov 24, 2018 1:16:21 PM | linkPosted by: james | Nov 24, 2018 12:15:31 PM | 7GeorgeV , Nov 24, 2018 1:34:08 PM | link"things didn't go as planned for the expropriation of russia after the fall of the soviet union.. it seems the west is still hurting from not being able to exploit russia fully, as they'd intended..."
They shot at an elephant and failed to kill it. So yes, out of the combo of frustration, resentment, and fear they hate the resurgent Russia and prefer Cold War II, and if necessary WWIII, to peaceful co-existence. Of course the usual corporate imperative (in this case weapons profiteering) reinforces the mass psychological pathology among the elites.
The ironic thing is that Putin doesn't prefer to challenge the neoliberal globalist "order" at all, but would happily see Russia take a prominent place within it. It's the US and its UK poodle who are insisting on confrontation.
Great article! It reminded me of what I read in George Orwell's novella "1984." He summed it all up brilliantly in nine words: "War is Peace"; "Freedom is Slavery"; "Ignorance is Strength." The three pillars of political power.Sasha , Nov 24, 2018 1:38:39 PM | linkSince UK has always blocked the "European Intelligence" initiative, on the basis of his pertenence to the "Five Eyes", and as UK is leaving the European Union, where it has always been the Troyan Horse of the US, one would think that all these people belonging to the so called "clusters" should register themselves as "foreign agents" working for UK government...and in this context, new empowerished sovereign governemts into the EU should consider the possibility expelling these traitors as spies of the UK....Zanon , Nov 24, 2018 2:12:45 PM | linkhttp://www.voltairenet.org/article204051.html
Some of the "clusters" unmasked here....some, like Ignacio Torreblanca in Spain, are related to the CFR....
https://www.rt.com/news/444737-uk-funded-campaign-russia-leaks/
Country list of agents of influence according to the leak:Zanon , Nov 24, 2018 2:13:28 PM | link
- Germany: Harold Elletson ,Klaus NaumannWolf-Ruediger Bengs, Ex Amb Killian, Gebhardt v Moltke, Roland Freudenstein, Hubertus Hoffmann, Bertil Wenger, Beate Wedekind, Klaus Wittmann, Florian Schmidt, Norris v Schirach
- Sweden, Norway, Finland: Martin Kragh , Jardar Ostbo, Chris Prebensen, Kate Hansen Bundt, Tor Bukkvoll, Henning-Andre Sogaard, Kristen Ven Bruusgard, Henrik O Breitenbauch, Niels Poulsen, Jeppe Plenge, Claus Mathiesen, Katri Pynnoniemi, Ian Robertson, Pauli Jarvenpaa, Andras Racz
- Netherlands: Dr Sijbren de Jong, Ida Eklund-Lindwall, Yevhen Fedchenko, Rianne Siebenga, Jerry Sullivan, Hunter B Treseder, Chris Quick
cresty , Nov 24, 2018 2:18:30 PM | link
- Spain: Nico de Pedro, Ricardo Blanco Tarno, Eduardo Serra Rexach, Dionisio Urteaga Todo, Dimitri Barua, Fernando Valenzuela Marzo, Marta Garcia, Abraham Sanz, Fernando Maura, Jose Ignacio Sanchez Amor, Jesus Ramon-Laca Clausen, Frances Ghiles, Carmen Claudin, Nika Prislan, Luis Simon, Charles Powell, Mira Milosevich, Daniel Iriarte, Anna Bosch, Mira Milosevich-Juaristi, Tito, Frances Ghiles, Borja Lasheras, Jordi Bacaria, Alvaro Imbernon-Sainz, Nacho Samor
- US, Canada: Mary Ellen Connell, Anders Aslund, Elizabeth Braw, Paul Goble, David Ziegler Evelyn Farkas, Glen Howard, Stephen Blank, Ian Brzezinski, Thomas Mahnken, John Nevado, Robert Nurick, Jeff McCausland Todd Leventhal
- UK: Chris Donnelly Amalyah Hart William Browder John Ardis Roderick Collins, Patrick Mileham Deborah Haynes Dan Lafayeedney Chris Hernon Mungo Melvin Rob Dover Julian Moore Agnes Josa David Aaronovitch Stephen Dalziel Raheem Shapi Ben Nimmo Robert Hall Alexander Hoare Steve Jermy Dominic Kennedy Victor Madeira Ed Lucas Dr David Ryall Graham Geale Steve Tatham Natalie Nougayrede
Alan Riley prof.alan.riley@btinternet.com Anne Applebaum Neil Logan Brown James Wilson Primavera Quantrill Bruce Jones David Clark Charles Dick Ahmed Dassu Sir Adam Thompson Lorna Fitzsimons Neil Buckley Richard Titley Euan Grant Alastair Aitken Yusuf Desai Bobo Lo Duncan Allen Chris Bell Peter Mason John Lough Catherine Crozier Robin Ashcroft Johanna Moehring Vadim Kleiner David Fields Alistair Wood Ben Robinson Drew Foxall Alex Finnen Orsyia Lutsevych Charlie Hatton Vladimir Ashurkov Giles Harris Ben Bradshaw Chris Scheurweghs James Nixey Charlie Hornick Baiba Braze J Lindley-French Craig Oliphant Paul Kitching Nick Childs Celia Szusterman James Sherr Alan Parfitt Alzbeta Chmelarova Keir Giles Andy Pryce Zach Harkenrider Kadri Liik Arron Rahaman David Nicholas Igor Sutyagin Rob Sandford Maya Parmar Andrew Wood Richard Slack Ellie Scarnell Nick Smith Asta Skaigiryte Ian Bond Joanna Szostek Gintaras Stonys Nina Jancowicz Nick Washer Ian Williams Joe Green Carl Miller Adrian Bradshaw Clement Daudy Jeremy Blackham Gabriel Daudy Andrew Lucy Stafford Diane Allen Alexandros Papaioannou Paddy NicollThank you very much for going through all the files, b. Will share far and wide
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Jul 07, 2017 | twitter.com
Power Vertical @ REALPLTKListen to x CIA tell of 2 standard procedures 58:20 is Ukraine Snipers 59:40 MH 17
1 reply 7 retweets 13 likes FzReplying to @ REALPLTK#MH17#Maidan#ukraine2017"The shooting down of an airplane that was over Peru, full of missionaries" "sent airforce to shoot it down" Recall witnesses seeing jets ? 0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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Nov 23, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
William Bowles , Nov 23, 2018 10:55:00 AM | link
@61
Bellingcat (not Belingcat) is a [intelligence aenies] front, financed by amongst other orgs, the Atlantic Council which in turn is financed by, well it's a long list!
http://www.thinktankwatch.com/2015/11/the-donors-of-atlantic-council.html
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Nov 22, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com
Moscow Exile November 19, 2018 at 7:12 am
The UK or The Ukraine?Mark Chapman November 19, 2018 at 10:45 amPicture 1:
Pictture 2:
Picture 3:
Picture 4:
Picture 5:
Picture 6:
And whom in which above pictures does the BBC condemn?
Pictures 1, 3 and 4: The UK
Pictures 2, 5 and 6: The Ukraine.
The UK – and the wider world – is perfectly comfortable with far-right nationalist groups in Ukraine which pursue a Nazi ideology. Ukraine, after all, is snuggled right up against Russia, and such groups can be reliably expected to agitate against Russia. Since Russia is the enemy, they can be said to be a sort of weapon of the west. But you start to get less comfortable with the existence of such weapons when they are loose in your own country, and might harm voters.Jen November 19, 2018 at 1:38 pmThe odd and disturbing part of the BBC article is that the young fellow (Adam Thomas) standing between the swastika flag and the woman in Picture 4 actually tried to convert to Judaism, and went to Israel and studied at a yeshiva (Jewish theological college) to do so. His objective was apparently to join a fundamentalist Jewish sect, of the type associated with young born-again North American and British Jewish people who then migrate to Israel and make up a considerable portion of the settler movement in that country. He was exposed to neo-Nazi beliefs from his stepfather as a child and he seems clearly attracted to apocalyptic cult belief systems. I think Thomas will always have that internal struggle of being drawn to ideologies that advocate a clean sweep and purge of humanity through constant war, violence and bloodshed so that humans can start all over again with a clean slate; yet he will be dissatisfied when eventually he comes to realise that whatever extremist ideology he attaches himself to, it will be full of contradictions and compromises. He may then conclude that humanity itself is worthless and that'll be when he really becomes dangerous.
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Nov 22, 2018 | www.unz.com
annamaria says: November 21, 2018 at 12:50 pm GMT 300 Words Meanwhile, the zionist project in Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) is humming full force: https://www.rt.com/op-ed/406991-western-media-ukraine-nazi/
"Last weekend saw Ukraine's biggest Nazi march of modern times. Yet, the Western media and its numerous correspondents in Kiev completely ignored the story, even on social networks.
On Saturday night, up to 20,000 far-right radicals honored the 75th anniversary of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) – a paramilitary group led by Stepan Bandera, which actively collaborated with Hitler's Germany. They brandished lit torches, smoke pellets, and flares as they chanted fascist slogans. And some participants openly gave Nazi salutes during the rally."
– Viva Kagans clan. Viva the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center; your efforts at promoting the Nazi revival in Ukraine have been bringing great results, including the "biggest Nazi march of modern times."
The State Dept. humanitarians, inspired by Clinton, and the totally zionized National Endowment for Democracy (and other banderite Chalupas) are undoubtedly elated with the "democracy on the march" in Ukraine (remember the $5 billion spent by the US in Ukraine to spearhead the regime change in Kiev ) https://www.rt.com/news/444538-five-years-on-from-euromaidan/
"Ukraine is emerging as Europe's poorest country In fact, according to a recent Credit Suisse report, Ukrainians rank among the world's poorest people , coming a dismal 123rd out of 140 countries, with the net wealth of the country's citizens lagging behind Bangladesh and Cameroon. Another recent study by the United Nations Development Program found that, despite continuing economic growth, 60 percent of Ukrainians live below the poverty line."
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Nov 19, 2018 | consortiumnews.com
US-Funded Neo-Nazis in Ukraine Mentor US White Supremacists November 17, 2018 • 43 Comments
Short-sighted U.S. foreign policy that backs jihadists in the Middle East and neo-Nazis in Ukraine is once again blowing back on the United States, as Max Blumenthal explains.
FBI: Azov Battalion Trained Rise Above Movement
Last month, an unsealed FBI indictment of four American white supremacists from the Rise Above Movement (RAM) declared that the defendants had trained with Ukraine's Azov Battalion, a neo-Nazi militia officially incorporated into the country's national guard. The training took place after the white supremacist gang participated in violent riots in Huntington Beach and Berkeley, California and Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017.
The indictment stated that the Azov Battalion "is believed to have participated in training and radicalizing United States-based white supremacy organizations."
After a wave of racist violence across America that culminated in the massacre of twelve Jewish worshippers at a Pittsburgh synagogue, the revelation that violent white supremacists have been traveling abroad for training and ideological indoctrination with a well-armed neo-Nazi militia should cause extreme alarm.
Not only are white supremacists from across the West flocking to Ukraine to learn from the combat experience of their fascist brothers-in-arms, they are doing so openly -- chronicling their experiences on social media before they bring their lessons back home. But U.S. law enforcement has done nothing so far to restrict the flow of right-wing American extremists to Azov's bases.
There is one likely explanation for the U.S. government's hands-off approach to Azov recruitment: the extremist militia is fighting pro-Russian separatists as a front-line proxy of Washington. In fact, the United States has directly armed the Azov Battalion, forking over anti-tank rocket launchers and even sending a team of Army officers to meet in the field with Azov commanders in 2017.
Though Congress passed legislation this year forbidding military aid to Azov on the grounds of its white supremacist ideology, the Trump administration's authorization of $200 million in offensive weaponry and aid to the Ukrainian military makes it likely new stores of weapons will wind up the extremist regiment's hands. When queried by reporters about evidence of American military training of Azov personnel, multiple U.S. army spokespersons admitted there was no mechanism in place to prevent that from happening.
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Hide Behind , November 18, 2018 at 6:55 pm
Strange people that live in US, those that live under belife of free speech and expression, and yet there are literally thousands of examples where those of opposing view points that try and present them in public are met with disruptive behaviors, banning from presentations of opposing ideology from speaking at Colleges and University campus, and removal and witholding of tenure to those who question edicts of correct speech and lets admit it anything that questions support of Israel the State.
And condoling of violent behavior by groups in US , crosses religious, political Partys, Anarchist, and now a liber storm trooper style ANTIFA that is beginning to better equip themselve tha. just pipes, knives, and clubs into having numbers armed with the Leftist hate most guns.
We have ultra right Trump supportive Militia that actively said they would revolt if Trump was defeated and now if he is impeached. The largest and most virulent part of the southern state militia are of Christian Zionist, and some militias signature patches have Star of David upon them and the cross
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frank mintz , November 18, 2018 at 5:28 pm
You think that the October massacre marks a culmination? That is naive: it is undoubtedly not an end point and part of a crescendo building for decades. Meanwhile, the professional Right keeps denouncing the Democrats for anti-Semitism, which is frequently simply criticism of Israel and has nothing whatever to do with attacks on persons or property. Your article reminds us that these psychopathic attacks are coming from a particular branch of the "White Right" which has been talking upon Satanic Judaism and killing Jews–and targeting synagogues–for quite a while.
Zenobia van Dongen , November 18, 2018 at 5:21 pm
Fascinating article by Max Blumenthal. Max Blumenthal rightly denounces Italy's fascist Casa Pound party but fails to report that Casa Pound is on excellent terms with Hezbollah, as reported by the Italian daily Repubblica in 2015. According to Repubblica, the European Parliament declared Hezbollah a terrorist group on 10 March 2005.
On 26 September 2015 a convention called "Mediterranean Solidarity", "the first international convention of solidarity [among] identities" was held in Rome attended by Rima Fakhri, member of Hezbollah's politburo and Sayyed Ammar Al Moussaw, responsible for Hezbollah's international relations, as well as by top Casa Pound leaders like Alberto Palladino, who was seen in the Donbass during fighting between Russia and the Ukraine, Franco Nerozzi, who was convicted of international terrorism in Verona after taking part in a failed coup detat on the Comoros islands, Casa Pound leader Giovanni Feola, and Luca Bertoni, representing the Lombardy-Russia Association, who always accompanies Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right Lega, on his trips to Moscow.
"Italian right-wingers have consolidated relations with the most fundamentalist and militant Islamic groups. In 2013 the City of Rome refused permission to the Syrian Uodai Soso Ramadan, also invited to the congress, to hold a pro-Assad demonstration. At the time he was staying at CasaPound."
Source: Roma, la strana coppia Hezbollah-Casapound insieme al convegno, di Corrado Zunino, Repubblica, 20 settembre 2015
https://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2015/09/20/news/roma_convegno_mediterraneo_solidale_iniziativa_fascio-islamica-123310960/tom metzger , November 18, 2018 at 3:37 pm
The article on the neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine is very interesting. I am a white working-class white separatist with some longtime following. Even though this article had both lies, truths and maybes. It was well done. However, when it says there is no other side in the US with another view, you are wrong. I have experienced the attempted and sometimes successful penetration of the right wing by CIA types for many years and gotten rid of 2 serious penetrations in years past.
I have warned those that listen not to involve themselves in the Ukraine situation. In fact, don't travel to other countries. Where you do not really know the score and may be fighting on the wrong side anyway.
I am aware that anything the State Department involves itself in is totally suspect and probably criminal. Even if you don't acknowledge it there are other factions that are pretty much out of the right wing, but are still very strongly White separatists . In fact, my politics have moved to the left on several important issues. It would appear to me that the powers that be are attempting to design a right wing alleged neo-Nazi movement somewhat patterned some what after ISIS.It is obvious Blumenthal's article has a lot of truth in it, but his mindset tends to get in the way . When he uses the old dog whistles like Trump when labeling people. Tom Metzger
Geo , November 18, 2018 at 6:36 pm
Curious why you are a White Separatist? Is there any logical reason because the best I can gather from the many separatist commenters that have littered threads like these over the years is that they're too fragile to get by in an ethically equal society. It seems that they're greatest problem is that others have rights now so it's harder for these White Separatists to succeed seeing as how they must do so on merit instead of birthright.
Be curious to find out if there is any justification for ethnic separatism other than petty whining because of some mythical birthright you feel you're being denied?
rosemerry , November 18, 2018 at 1:56 pm
Notice that they admit the connection goes back at least to 2014. We never hear much about the overthrow of the new pro-Russian government in Ukraine after the Russians had worked for four years with the pro-Western lot. Only when Nuland/Yats and co interfered did the new "government" with its Nazi links become powerful with the help of the EU and of course USA. The whole continuing insistence on Russia being an enemy has no basis in reason or sense. To support Ukraine now just because it is fanatically against Russia after decades of cooperation in the USSR is not justified by any possible link with "national security of the USA" or of Europe.
O Society , November 18, 2018 at 1:13 pm
Sadly, white nationalism is a thing the United States enjoys exporting. It's an existential crises. https://opensociet.org/2018/11/16/the-rise-of-trump-is-white-america-dying/
Bruce Gagnon , November 18, 2018 at 12:55 pm
See this video of Obama's ambassador to Ukraine Pyatt going to visit training base in western Ukraine where Nazis brought into the then newly formed National Guard are still being trained by US Army Special Forces from Fort Carson, Colorado . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeZFS9hTUg
Patrick Lucius , November 18, 2018 at 12:01 pm
Let's not forget that the illegal coup in Ukraine and ensuing civil war was pushed by Obama/Hillary. It was HRC who promoted Dick Cheney's chief foreign adviser, Victoria Nuland, to Secretary of European Affairs, and it was Nuland who was caught on tape discussing how to "midwife this thing" in Ukraine.
Nuland is wife of chief neocon Richard Kagan, founder of PNAC. This essentially restarted the cold war between Russia and America. Obama tarnished his presidency primarily by working with Clinton, including the destruction of Libya. Where were the Democrats to object to such shenanigans? I don't know where they were, but I do know where they are now–charging Trump with colluding with the Russians. I thought it was fascinating that Trump, when he secured the Republican nomination, insisted that the Republicans remove from their platform the promise of military aid to Western Ukraine, to fight the pro-Russian eastern Ukrainians. Where were the Democrats to applaud this anti-war mongering? I know where I, as a Democrat was–I was leaving the party and becoming a Trump supporter.
Martin - Swedish citizen , November 18, 2018 at 2:30 pm
Thanks, these are important points, is about the neocons.
On our smaller Swedish scale ,
I was similarly disgusted with the support by the once much more ethical Social Democratic Party for the US- and EU-supported coup in Kiev.lucius , November 18, 2018 at 7:58 pm
Lots of room for disgust In America, the traditional Democrats and Republicans both are backing the neocons' stance with just about no questioning or examination. It seems to be a tribal thing, or some sort of group response, like geese in flight, or buffalo running off a cliff
Jesse , November 18, 2018 at 11:41 am
Thank you for providing a platform for Max Blumenthal's reporting.
Wayne Mclaughlin , November 18, 2018 at 10:35 am
Very good article except for the line " .. Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the failure of the EU and NATO to prevent it ." I always take issue with that representation because it implies an aggressive and forceful action by Russia when in fact Crimea seceded from Ukraine after the western backed and illegal coup of the democratically elected government.
Skip Scott , November 18, 2018 at 2:11 pm
One of the definitions of annexation is "the adding of new territory". I believe this is the way the word is being used in this article. It has come to mean "forceful acquisition" to many folks, and this leads to confusion. To those of us who know a little history, maybe a better word would have "rejoining", since Crimea was part of Russia until the early 1950's. When Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine it was still part of the USSR, so it was really no more than a gesture. The Russian naval base in Sevastopol has been there since the 1700's.
Martin - Swedish citizen , November 18, 2018 at 2:25 pm
Very good point!
Wording is important, and accepting the word annexation without clarification may be a step towards buying the lie.Joe Tedesky , November 18, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Great point Skip. Joe
dale t hood , November 18, 2018 at 10:32 pm
thank you wayne
torture this , November 18, 2018 at 10:28 am
It must be a terrible feeling to know you can't compete with people that you believe are inferior. Nice to have some fellow losers to commiserate with, I suppose.
JOHN CHUCKMAN , November 18, 2018 at 8:33 am
Ah, America, land of liberty!
Is there anything you won't do in your rabid efforts to dominate the planet?
Of course, when you think about it, these Ukrainian thugs are no worse than other outfits America heavily supports, from the mercenaries of Syria and the government of Saudi Arabia to the King of Bahrain and the government of Israel.
A couple of these last – Israel, Saudi Arabia – kill more innocent civilians than any terrorist organization could dream of doing.
And no one says a thing.
mike k , November 18, 2018 at 8:27 am
Max Blumenthal does a valuable service shining a light into the dark places of Nazi Fascism in the US. Anyone who thinks these groups are too small to be important, should recall how small the movement that gave us Hitler was in it's beginnings.
mike k , November 18, 2018 at 8:16 am
Pro Nazi sentiment has never died in the US Oligarchy. The CIA is essentially a fascist organization pretending to be protectors of democracy. Worship of violence and authoritarianism is endemic to the American Spirit. All the better for being the world's greatest bully, pretending to be the guardians of the highest values. Those in high places here are the evil scum of the universe.
(Thanks for the new font! So much better.)
John A , November 18, 2018 at 7:57 am
The US is now funding a schism in the Orthodox church between Ukraine and Russia. The evil of the US knows no bounds.
rosemerry , November 18, 2018 at 2:01 pm
Of course, "good ole Americans" like Mike Pence claim to be Christians, and many other US Christians blame the Russian Orthodox church for not being as modern as they are and ready to accept LGBTQ..
Realist , November 18, 2018 at 4:14 am
Not surprising that some Americans think that racial bigotry is okie dokie when both political parties in Washington, especially the one that bases its platform on membership in certain favored identity groups, practice it routinely against anyone or anything Russian or Iranian. They have a few other fall guys as well, but those are the two blamed for everything these days.
No question but that Ukraine is one of the most ethnically prejudiced and fascist regimes on the planet, though that doesn't seem to bother Washington, as long as they are frenetically Russophobic. Neither does Israel's rampant anti-Arab, anti-Persian and anti-Muslim Zionism bother the bigots in DC in the slightest.
Yet they get into a lather when the small nations of Eastern Europe, especially those in the Visegrad countries (plus Austria, Slovenia and Croatia) constituting most of the Intermarium that the author alluded to, which happen to have both small populations and low birthrates, reasonably fear that their native populations will be swamped out within a couple of generations if they are forced by the EU to take in significant numbers of Islamic migrants from the lands thrown into turmoil by the U.S.-instigated wars throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Hungary's Viktor Orban is vilified in the West as some sort of new Hitler (must be Putin's twin brother) for implementing on a much smaller scale what Donald Trump is trying to institutionalise in the enormously larger United States.
Rather than force all these sociological "side effects" to its catastrophic wars on its putative "allies," perhaps Washington should finally see the light and do the right thing by winding down the carnage and aiding the resettlement and rebuilding of the war-torn countries by their displaced citizens. But they won't–they have overtly refused, at least until none of America's debts can be paid with devalued petrodollars, because that would let Russia off the hook, whom Washington wants to see crushed as badly as der Fuehrer did–I think it's trying to complete his mission. Plus the glorious new war against Iran would have to be cancelled. They used to say, "all roads lead to Rome." They oughta re-write that for the modern world as, "all strife traces from Washington."
mike k , November 18, 2018 at 8:19 am
Excellent comments Realist.
Joe Tedesky , November 18, 2018 at 10:55 am
Like our 'Big Pharma Over Medicated Society' we in the West would rather beat the hell out of the symptom rather than cure the cause, is our American hegemonic trademark. Similar to tightening the screw so tight the fragile glass begins to crack so you fix it with a hammer. It appears our leaders love spreading their chaos. None of this shows signs of ever ending well, but yet we overdose the symptom to the extreme that the side affect is what finally kills us. In the end it only matters how it shows on a profit and loss sheet.
rosemerry , November 18, 2018 at 2:05 pm
An excellent contribution-thanks realist.
The USA has steadfastly refused to rebuild their devastated victims' lands even when UN legal demands clearly demanded it eg Nicaragua.Jean , November 18, 2018 at 3:01 am
Short sited or planned.
michael weddle , November 18, 2018 at 1:44 am
Excellent reporting, Max! I'm curious. Is there any connection with present or former Eric Prince mercenary soldiers, or soldiers from other private mercenary organizations, with these fascist movements?
Joe Tedesky , November 17, 2018 at 11:15 pm
This fascist trend should go well with Operation Timber Sycamore, where the U.S. armed the terrorist jihadist. When will our American leaders learn, that if you play with fire you will get burned. The rise of the Nazi is one more reason that we Americans should focus on this type of news as Max Blumenthal reports. Furthermore the American Jewish who do not support the Israeli apartheid state should join good thinking Americans to put down this disgusting happening. So thank you Victoria Nuland, Geoffrey Pratt, and the rest of this sick and insane DC bunch, because without you where would our Homeland Security budget be?
Think it can't happen here . the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooter lived 4 blocks from me. Btw these racist don't vote, they just hate. And 'no' I didn't know him, but I know of others sick birds all of them.
And especially a warm thank you goes out to Max Blumenthal for his courageous reporting. Bless you Max. Joe
Bob Van Noy , November 18, 2018 at 10:32 am
Thank you Joe. The larger picture and insanity of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" Philosophy, is and always has been totally without moral responsibility. Interestingly, it seems to be a fundamental aspect of post WWII organizing by our own OSS, who became the CIA in 1949. Alan Dulles was busy organizing this kind of activity before that war ended.
Thanks to you Joe and of course Max Blumenthal for addressing this subject. I'll include a link to the early heritage of this bizarre and illegal concept here. Many thanks Consortium News.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2014-08-18/why-ukraine-crisis-west-s-fault
Joe Tedesky , November 18, 2018 at 11:24 am
Thanks Bob reading John Mearsheimer well defined portrayal of what led up to the fall of the Ukraine as we once knew it, is reminiscent of reading Robert Parry's many articles on this subject. If you recall Parry was deeply into this U.S. led NATO aggression. Through the MSM of the West the tables were turned to point the finger to instead Russian aggression. Putin is never shown in light of his policy achievements nor are his speeches calling out to the world for sensible detente where needed ever covered, but instead Putin is demonized to no end.
Little is remembered, or even known by those in the West of another time where American and British capitalism hugged the very nature of Nazism, while the Russians even back then were too the target of this type of Western aggression. Who's needs history when dreams of speculative profit should cloud their eyes?
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Nov 19, 2018 | www.unz.com
JR , says: November 15, 2018 at 8:20 pm GMT
@Quartermaster Even the German government friendly Der Spiegel begs to differ:The US instigated coup was in line with Brzezinski's "Grand Chessboard" delusions of the US having to control Eurasia especially Ukraine in order to reduce Russia to the role of a regional power. The EU piggybacked on that coup by having the Maidan regime sign on to the European Neighborhood Policy thus reducing Ukraine to the role of a EU dependent non-member state.
http://www.imi-online.de/2016/03/10/expansion-association-confrontation/
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Nov 16, 2018 | www.zerohedge.com
The Meaning Of A Multipolar World
by Tyler Durden Fri, 11/16/2018 - 00:05 4 SHARES Authored by Eric Zuesse via The Saker Blog,
Right now, we live in a monopolar world.
Here is how U.S. President Barack Obama proudly, even imperially, described it when delivering the Commencement address to America's future generals, at West Point Military Academy, on 28 May 2014 :
The United States is and remains the one indispensable nation . [Every other nation is therefore 'dispensable'; we therefore now have "Amerika, Amerika über alles, über alles in der Welt".] That has been true for the century passed and it will be true for the century to come. America must always lead on the world stage. If we don't, no one else will...
Russia's aggression toward former Soviet states unnerves capitals in Europe, while China's economic rise and military reach worries its neighbors. From Brazil to India, rising middle classes compete with us. [He was here telling these future U.S. military leaders that they are to fight for the U.S. aristocracy, to help them defeat any nation that resists.] ...
In Ukraine, Russia's recent actions recall the days when Soviet tanks rolled into Eastern Europe. But this isn't the Cold War. Our ability to shape world opinion helped isolate Russia right away. [He was proud of the U.S. Government's effectiveness at propaganda, just as Hitler was proud of the German Government's propaganda-effectiveness under Joseph Goebbels.] Because of American leadership, the world immediately condemned Russian actions; Europe and the G7 joined us to impose sanctions; NATO reinforced our commitment to Eastern European allies; the IMF is helping to stabilize Ukraine's economy; OSCE monitors brought the eyes of the world to unstable parts of Ukraine.
Actually, his - Obama's - regime, had conquered Ukraine in February 2014 by a very bloody coup , and installed a racist-fascist anti-Russian Government there next door to Russia, a stooge-regime to this day, which instituted a racial-cleansing campaign to eliminate enough pro-Russia voters so as to be able to hold onto power there. It has destroyed Ukraine and so alienated the regions of Ukraine that had voted more than 75% for the democratically elected Ukrainian President whom Obama overthrew, so that those pro-Russia regions quit Ukraine. What remains of Ukraine after the U.S. conquest is a nazi mess and a destroyed nation in hock to Western taxpayers and banks .
Furthermore, Obama insisted upon (to use Bush's term about Saddam Hussein) "regime-change" in Syria. Twice in one day the Secretary General of the U.N. asserted that only the Syrian people have any right to do that, no outside nation has any right to impose it. Obama ignored him and kept on trying. Obama actually protected Al Qaeda's Syrian affiliate against bombing by Syria's Government and by Syria's ally Russia, while the U.S. bombed Syria's army , which was trying to prevent those jihadists from overthrowing the Government. Obama bombed Libya in order to "regime-change" Muammar Gaddafi, and he bombed Syria in order to "regime-change" Bashar al-Assad; and, so, while the "U.S. Drops Bombs; EU Gets Refugees & Blame. This Is Insane." And Obama's successor Trump continues Obama's policies in this regard. And, of course, the U.S. and its ally UK invaded Iraq in 2003, likewise on the basis of lies to the effect that Iraq was the aggressor . (Even Germany called Poland the aggressor when invading Poland in 1939.)
No other nation regularly invades other nations that never had invaded it. This is international aggression. It is the international crime of "War of Aggression" ; and the only nations which do it nowadays are America and its allies, such as the Sauds, Israel, France, and UK, which often join in America's aggressions (or, in the case of the Sauds' invasion of Yemen, the ally initiates an invasion, which the U.S. then joins). America's generals are taught this aggression, and not only by Obama. Ever since at least George W. Bush, it has been solid U.S. policy. (Bush even kicked out the U.N.'s weapons-inspectors, so as to bomb Iraq in 2003.)
In other words: a mono-polar world is a world in which one nation stands above international law, and that nation's participation in an invasion immunizes also each of its allies who join in the invasion, protecting it too from prosecution, so that a mono-polar world is one in which the United Nations can't even possibly impose international law impartially, but can impose it only against nations that aren't allied with the mono-polar power, which in this case is the United States. Furthermore, because the U.S. regime reigns supreme over the entire world, as it does, any nations -- such as Russia, China, Syria, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, and Ecuador -- that the U.S. regime (which has itself been scientifically proven to be a dictatorship ) chooses to treat as an enemy, is especially disadvantaged internationally. Russia and China, however, are among the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and therefore possess a degree of international protection that America's other chosen enemies do not. And the people who choose which nations to identify as America's 'enemies' are America's super-rich and not the entire American population, because the U.S. Government is controlled by the super-rich and not by the public .
So, that's the existing mono-polar world: it is a world that's controlled by one nation, and this one nation is, in turn, controlled by its aristocracy, its super-rich .
If one of the five permanent members of the Security Council would table at the U.N. a proposal to eliminate the immunity that the U.S. regime has, from investigation and prosecution for any future War of Aggression that it might perpetrate, then, of course, the U.S. and any of its allies on the Security Council would veto that, but if the proposing nation would then constantly call to the international public's attention that the U.S. and its allies had blocked passage of such a crucially needed "procedure to amend the UN charter" , and that this fact means that the U.S. and its allies constitute fascist regimes as was understood and applied against Germany's fascist regime, at the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1945, then possibly some members of the U.S.-led gang (the NATO portion of it, at least) would quit that gang, and the U.S. global dictatorship might end, so that there would then become a multi-polar world, in which democracy could actually thrive.
Democracy can only shrivel in a mono-polar world, because all other nations then are simply vassal nations, which accept Obama's often-repeated dictum that all other nations are "dispensable" and that only the U.S. is not. Even the UK would actually gain in freedom, and in democracy, by breaking away from the U.S., because it would no longer be under the U.S. thumb -- the thumb of the global aggressor-nation.
Only one global poll has ever been taken of the question "Which country do you think is the greatest threat to peace in the world today?" and it found that, overwhelmingly, by a three-to-one ratio above the second-most-often named country, the United States was identified as being precisely that, the top threat to world-peace . But then, a few years later, another (though less-comprehensive) poll was taken on a similar question, and it produced similar results . Apparently, despite the effectiveness of America's propagandists, people in other lands recognize quite well that today's America is a more successful and longer-reigning version of Hitler's Germany. Although modern America's propaganda-operation is far more sophisticated than Nazi Germany's was, it's not entirely successful. America's invasions are now too common, all based on lies, just like Hitler's were.
On November 9th, Russian Television headlined "'Very insulting': Trump bashes Macron's idea of European army for protection from Russia, China & US" and reported that "US President Donald Trump has unloaded on his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron, calling the French president's idea of a 'real European army,' independent from Washington, an insult." On the one hand, Trump constantly criticizes France and other European nations for allegedly not paying enough for America's NATO military alliance, but he now is denigrating France for proposing to other NATO members a decreasing reliance upon NATO, and increasing reliance, instead, upon the Permanent Structured Cooperation (or PESCO) European military alliance , which was begun on 11 December 2017, and which currently has "25 EU Member States participating: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain and Sweden." Those are the European nations that are now on the path to eventually quitting NATO.
Once NATO is ended, the U.S. regime will find far more difficult any invasions such as of Iraq 2003, Libya 2011, Syria 2012-, Yemen 2016-, and maybe even such as America's bloody coup that overthrew the democratically elected Government of Ukraine and installed a racist-fascist or nazi anti-Russian regime there in 2014 . All of these U.S. invasions (and coup) brought to Europe millions of refugees and enormously increased burdens upon European taxpayers. Plus, America's economic sanctions against both Russia and Iran have hurt European companies (and the U.S. does almost no business with either country, so is immune to that, also). Consequently, today's America is clearly Europe's actual main enemy. The continuation of NATO is actually toxic to the peoples of Europe. Communism and the Soviet Union and its NATO-mirroring Warsaw Pact military alliance, all ended peacefully in 1991, but the U.S. regime has secretly continued the Cold War, now against Russia , and is increasingly focusing its "regime-change" propaganda against Russia's popular democratic leader, Vladimir Putin, even though this U.S. aggression against Russia could mean a world-annihilating nuclear war.
On November 11th, RT bannered "'Good for multipolar world': Putin positive on Macron's 'European army' plan bashed by Trump (VIDEO)" , and opened:
Europe's desire to create its own army and stop relying on Washington for defense is not only understandable, but would be "positive" for the multipolar world, Vladimir Putin said days after Donald Trump ripped into it.
" Europe is a powerful economic union and it is only natural that they want to be independent and sovereign in the field of defense and security," Putin told RT in Paris where world leader gathered to mark the centenary of the end of WWI.
He also described the potential creation of a European army "a positive process," adding that it would "strengthen the multipolar world." The Russian leader even expressed his support to French President Emmanuel Macron, who recently championed this idea by saying that Russia's stance on the issue "is aligned with that of France" to some extent.
Macron recently revived the ambitious plans of creating a combined EU military force by saying that it is essential for the security of Europe. He also said that the EU must become independent from its key ally on the other side of the Atlantic, provoking an angry reaction from Washington.
Once NATO has shrunk to include only the pro-aggression and outright nazi European nations, such as Ukraine (after the U.S. gang accepts Ukraine into NATO, as it almost certainly then would do), the EU will have a degree of freedom and of democracy that it can only dream of today, and there will then be a multi-polar world, in which the leaders of the U.S. will no longer enjoy the type of immunity from investigation and possible prosecution, for their invasions, that they do today. The result of this will, however, be catastrophic for the top 100 U.S. 'defense' contractors , such as Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, and Raytheon, because then all of those firms' foreign sales except to the Sauds, Israel and a few other feudal and fascist regimes, will greatly decline. Donald Trump is doing everything he can to keep the Sauds to the agreements he reached with them back in 2017 to buy $404 billion of U.S. weaponry over the following 10 years . If, in addition, those firms lose some of their European sales, then the U.S. economic boom thus far in Trump's Presidency will be seriously endangered. So, the U.S. regime, which is run by the owners of its 'defense'-contractors , will do all it can to prevent this from happening.
* * *
Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They're Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010 , and of CHRIST'S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity .
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Mar 24, 2017 | off-guardian.org
In March 23rd, Gallup headlined "South Sudan, Haiti and Ukraine Lead World in Suffering" , and the Ukrainian part of that can unquestionably be laid at the feet of U.S. President Barack Obama, who in February 2014 imposed upon Ukraine a very bloody coup (see above), which he and his press misrepresented (and still misrepresent) as being (and still represent as having been) a 'democratic revolution', but was nothing of the sort, and actually was instead the start of the Ukrainian dictatorship and the hell that has since destroyed that country, and brought the people there into such misery, it's now by far the worst in Europe, and nearly tied with the worst in the entire world.America's criminal 'news' media never even reported the coup, nor that in 2011 the Obama regime began planning for a coup in Ukraine . And that by 1 March 2013 they started organizing it inside the U.S. Embassy there . And that they hired members of Ukraine's two racist-fascist, or nazi, political parties, Right Sector and Svoboda (which latter had been called the Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine until the CIA advised them to change it to Freedom Party, or "Svoboda" instead). And that in February 2014 they did it (and here's the 4 February 2014 phone call instructing the U.S. Ambassador whom to place in charge of the new regime when the coup will be completed), under the cover of authentic anti-corruption demonstrations that the Embassy organized on the Maidan Square in Kiev, demonstrations that the criminal U.S. 'news' media misrepresented as 'democracy demonstrations,' though Ukraine already had democracy (but still lots of corruption, even more than today's U.S. does, and the pontificating Obama said he was trying to end Ukraine's corruption -- which instead actually soared after his coup there).
The head of the 'private CIA' firm Stratfor said it was "the most blatant coup in history" but he couldn't say that to Americans, because he knows that our press is just a mouthpiece for the regime (just like it was during the lead-up to George W. Bush's equally unprovoked invasion of Iraq -- for which America's 'news' media suffered likewise no penalties).
When subsequently accused by neocons for his having said this, his response was "I told the business journal Kommersant that if the US were behind a coup in Kiev, it would have been the most blatant coup in history," but he was lying to say this, because, as I pointed out when writing about that rejoinder of his, he had, in fact, made quite clear in his Kommersant interview, that it was, in his view "the most blatant coup in history," no conditionals on that.
Everybody knows what Obama, and Clinton , and Sarkozy, did to Libya -- in their zeal to eliminate yet another nation's leader who was friendly toward Russia (Muammar Gaddafi), they turned one of the highest-living-standard nations in Africa into a failed state and huge source of refugees (as well as of weapons that the Clinton State Department transferred to the jihadists in Syria to bring down Bashar al-Assad, another ally of Russia) -- but the 'news' media have continued to hide what Obama (assisted by America's European allies, especially Poland and Netherlands, and also by America's apartheid Middle Eastern ally, Israel) did to Ukraine.
I voted for Obama, partly because the insane McCain ("bomb, bomb, bomb Iran") and the creepy Romney ("Russia, this is, without question, our number one geopolitical foe") were denounced by the (duplicitous) Obama for saying such evil things, their aggressive international positions, which continued old Cold-War-era hostilities into the present, even after the Cold War had ended long ago (in 1991) ( but only on the Russian side ). I since have learned that in today's American political system, the same aristocracy controls both of our rotten political Parties, and American democracy no longer exists. (And the only scientific study of whether America between the years 1981 and 2002 was democratic found that it was not, and it already confirmed what Jimmy Carter later said on 28 July 2015 :
Now it's just an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or being elected president. And the same thing applies to governors, and U.S. Senators and congress members."
But yet our Presidents continue the line, now demonstrably become a myth, of 'American democracy', and use it as a sledgehammer against other governments, to 'justify' invading (or, in Ukraine's case, overthrowing via a 'democratic revolution') their lands (allies of Russia) such as in Iraq, Libya, Syria, and maybe even soon, Iran.
Here are some of the events and important historical details along the way to Ukraine's plunge into a worse condition than most African nations:
"Yanukovych's Removal Was Unconstitutional" "Obama Definitely Caused The Malaysian Airliner To Be Downed" "War on Donbass was planned to ignite a major war in Europe." "Our 'Enemies' In Ukraine Speak" "Meet Ukraine's Master Mass-Murderer: Dmitriy Yarosh" "Ukrainian Soldier Explains Why He Enjoys Killing Russians" "Russia's Leader Putin Rejects Ukrainian Separatists' Aim To Become Part Of Russia" "Gallup: Ukrainians Loathe the Kiev Government Imposed by Obama"Please send this article to every friend who is part of the majority that, as a Quinnipiac University poll published on March 22nd reported, "A total of 51 percent of voters say they can trust U.S. intelligence agencies to do what is right 'almost all of the time' or 'most of the time'" (and that level of trust was far higher than for the rotten press and for the rotten politicians), even after the CIA's rubber-stamping Bush's lies to invade Iraq, and after the FBI's shameless performance on Hillary Clinton's privatized State Department emails even after her smashing their cell-phones with hammers , etc., and all the other official cover-ups, with no American officials even so much as being charged for their rampant crimes against the American public. Besides: ever since the CIA's founding, it has had an "Operation Gladio" that specializes in organizing terrorist acts so as for them to be blamed on, first, communist countries when they existed; and, then, after the end of communism, on allies of Russia. Did the American dictatorship begin right after FDR died in 1945? How much longer will these lies succeed?
For the people of Iraq , and of Syria , and of Ukraine, and many such countries, this dictatorship has destroyed their lives. Trusting the 'intelligence' services of a dictatorship doesn't make any sense at all. They're all working for the aristocracy, the billionaires -- not for any public, anywhere; not here, not there, just nowhere. Should the cattle trust the feedlot-operator? Only ignorance can produce trust, under the conditions that actually exist.
So, unless the idea is that ignorance is bliss, pass along the truth, when you find it, because it is very rare -- and the system operates to keep it that way.
Farrier says Nov, 14, 2017
Overthrowing Ukraine was an attempt to end Russia being the major power on the Black Sea and establish it as a NATO lake to stop Russia from using the sea to aid Syria or Iran. That was ruined when Putin seized Crimea, keeping the Russian naval base.Frank says Mar, 25, 2017In fact, the destabilization of the Ukraine occurred at the dawn of the new century in 2004. The Presidential election of that year between Victor Yuschenko and Victor Yanukovich resulted initially in the victory of Yanukovich. However serious allegations regarding electoral fraud were raised. This resulted in mass demonstrations in Kiev and other cities throughout Ukraine.leruscino says Mar, 24, 2017A re-run was ordered and the second time around Yushchenko took the Presidency with 52% of the vote to Yanukovich's 44%. Suffice it to say that prior to the re-run a number of shadowy foreign NGOs – including the National Endowment for Democracy – were active in promoting civic disobedience in a number of Ukrainian cities in west and central Ukraine. Independence Square in the middle of Kiev was occupied after the first election which was declared invalid. These events became known as the 'Orange Revolution'.
It would be misleading to assume that significant numbers of the protestors did not have a valid case against Yanukovich in terms of corruption and self-serving. However, it was equally true that many of the demonstrators' motives were somewhat less noble. Prior to the election Yushchenko had promised his running mate Yulia Tymoshenko the position of Prime Minister should he win the election. Thus throughout, the disturbances were a struggle between the eastern and western oligarchs.
On the crucial question of the nature of these events, 'Peoples power' or 'revolutionary coup' the issue remains undecided.
This notwithstanding the British historian David Lane of Emmanuel College Cambridge argued that"The 'Orange Revolution' in Ukraine was widely considered to be an instance of the 'coloured revolutions' of 1989 engendered by democratic values and nascent civil societies in the process of nation building. The extent to which the 'Orange Revolution' could be considered a revolutionary event stimulated by civil society, or a different type of political activity (a putsch, coup d'état), legitimated by elite-sponsored 'soft' political power. Based on public opinion poll data and responses from focus groups, the author contends that what began as an orchestrated protest election fraud developed into a novel type of political activity -- a revolutionary coup d'état. It is contended that the movement was divisive rather than integrative and did not enjoy widespread popular support."
Which is about the nearest we will get to an authentic answer.
What followed, however, was a complete and corrupt shamble of opportunism, corruption and self-serving misrule of Yuschenko and Tymoshenko who, after becoming involved in some dubious energy deals was to become known as the 'Gas Princess'. These two paragons of democracy eventually became bitter enemies and saw the return of Yanukovich after the Presidential contest between her and Yanukovich in 2010 which Yanukovich narrowly won.
Wanted Dead or Alive !mohandeer says Mar, 24, 2017BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA – AKA 'Barry Soetoro'
Crimes:
Mass Murder (c) 600,000+ Killed, Syria, Libya, Ukraine, Yemen.
&
WiretappingReward : Clear Conscious, Service to Humanity.
Loading...Reblogged this on wgrovedotnet and commented:It's long been a truth that democracy in the US died a long time ago and the wealth and power behind the POTUS, irrespective of who that might be, are mere puppets. Obama won his presidency on outright lies and the crooked Clintons and Sarkozys of the US corrupt elite serve no-one's interests but their own at the cost of the lives of Ukrainian Russian ethnics and the Libyan, Iraqi and Syrian people. "Saving Syria's children" would require the removal of the source of their suffering, which can be firmly laid at the door of murderous Washington War Hawks, rent-a-gobs like Samantha Powers and Victoria Nuland(nee Kagan)and corrupt MSM supporting the rogue state that is the USA.
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Nov 02, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
Nick Baam , Nov 1, 2018 3:33:01 PM | link
craigsummers:The Dutch were not right about MH17, and neither are the Danes. Almost certainly another anti-Iranian false flag coming -- this on American soil -- with war soon to follow. https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/
'The Russian military traced the Buk missile [9M38 missile], which shot down the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in 2014, using serial numbers found on missile fragments showcased by an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands.
'Using the serial number of the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 No. 8-30-113 and the engine of the missile 9D131 with the serial number 8869032, the Russian military identified this missile as one produced by the Dolgoprudny plant -- a Soviet/Russian designer and mass producer of surface-to-air missiles located in the city of Dolgoprudny, Moscow Oblast.
'The military said that the documentation for the aforementioned missile is still stored at the plant -- the missile with the aforementioned engine and nozzle cluster has the manufacturing serial number of 8868720.
'According to the provided documents, the nozzle cluster was installed in the missile on December 24, 1986. The engine was installed to the missile on the same day.'
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Oct 20, 2018 | www.unz.com
Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. The commission refused Russians access to its findings; this unfair dealing would force any intelligence service in the world to try and learn what had been found.
Not that it was of any use. The Dutch commission indeed found out the numbers of the missile that destroyed the jet; the Russians went through their documents and proved that this particular missile had been delivered to the Ukraine (when it was a Soviet republic) and remained there. A scoop! Now we know what happened with the jet – it was destroyed by the Ukrainians, presumably by mistake, like they downed another Russian airliner . However, the Western media ignored this scoop altogether. They decided to blame the crash on the Russians, and so they did to the end. Even if Russian intelligence were to find and deliver to the Hague the Ukrainian soldiers who operated the missile launcher, the Dutch, as loyal NATO members, would look other way.
This already happened regarding Syrian chemical attacks – the Russians and the Syrians delivered the very kids who unwillingly participated in the White Helmets' staged and filmed 'attack, directly to the OPCW. It was of no use. These guys are not after truth, they are just repeating the narrative they learned by rote.
Still, Russian intelligence worth of its name would be expected to try and obtain maximum findings in order to help the government to clear Russia's name of unjust accusations. There revelations of Russian activity weren't particularly dangerous or vicious. But while this subject had been discussed, a very painful and distressing development had been revealed.
The Western intelligence services have achieved incredible knowledge of whatever happens in Russia. They have obtained extensive databases of Russian everyday life from traffic violations and fines to passport scans, from residence registration to taxi requests, from messenger chats to emails, allowing them to trace persons and events in Russia with uncanny precision.
Many databases had been stolen and sold by small-time crooks; Western intelligences had made a concentrated effort to buy whatever is available on the black market; some bases were stolen and sold for crypto-currencies on the deep internet.
The most valuable databases had been sold by the crooks and/or traitors, while the Information Security Centre of FSB (ЦИБ ФСБ) led by colonel Sergei Mikhailov who is now being tried for the high treason, did nothing to stop the leak.
jilles dykstra , says: October 20, 2018 at 7:23 am GMT
" Likewise, the Netherlands story of Russian hacking connected with the Dutch commission investigating the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 sounds realistic. "How ?
Suspect Ukraine was part of those who investigated. This comedy, or tragedy, has reached its top in designating the Russian officer who did it, and the intention to ask him why he did it. Russia had no motive, the west and Ukraine had, the Netherlands most objected to more sanctions against Russia, we had a considerable export, the day after the disaster no more objections.
If it was an accident, a very lucky one, hitting a plane coming from Amsterdam.
The MH17 show closely resembles the Sept 11 show. Memorials, remembrances, etc. Nobody yet has dared to ask prime minister Rutte what was so secret in the afternoon of the disaster that he asked vice prime minister Asscher, then on vacation in the south of France, to call him back on a land line 'so that the Russians were unable to listen in'. My darkest suspicion, Rutte knew what was going to happen.
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Oct 18, 2018 | themoscowtimes.com
https://themoscowtimes.com/news/moscow-accuses-bellingcat-serving-western-intelligence-63212):
".......Russia's foreign minister has accused the open-source Bellingcat investigative team of acting as a front for Western intelligence services seeking to manipulate public opinion.Bellingcat has played a leading role in identifying the alleged names of two men accused of trying to poison ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain this year. It has previously published investigations that reportedly link Russia to the downing of flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine and suspected chemical attacks in Syria.
"It's no secret to anyone, Western journalists write openly that Bellingcat is connected to special services," Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview with Euronews on Tuesday.
"They leak information through it to have some effect on public opinion," he said......."
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Oct 12, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com
SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat . Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning .)
SKRIPALMANIA. Has now been completely outsourced to Bellingcat. Which tells the discerning observer two things: 1) there is no evidence 2) the truth is probably the opposite. (And for those of you who take Bellingcat seriously: become discerning.)Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours agoTo those of you who are like myself deeply sceptical about this story can I recommend this article in the UK Independent newspaper.
We should be asking for answers about the Skripals and Bellingcat – and not just from Russia. Mary Dejevsky.
It has transatlantic connections.Snow Flake -> Araminta Smade , 5 hours agoHiggins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.
When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.
And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)
Peddling Certainty:
It has transatlantic connections.FB -> Snow Flake , an hour agoHiggins has entered the polite academic space both in the Uk and the US in lightening speed. And as a result of that got special attention by media. Not only that, but in the US he additionally joined an important cog of the EU-US think thank world. The Atlantic Council made him a non-resident "Senior Fellow". As expert in digital forensics, open source and the future of Europe.
When the huge open source "gold rush" caught my attention in the early post 9/11 years, all the excited members I witnessed more close up were quite system conform. That was after the Iraq war intelligence expertise. That's why it made me wonder. Thus,the story of Eliot Higgins seems no outlier from my rather limited perspective.
And yes, I am with Paul Robinson, who a while ago noticed the same contradictions as Mary Dejevsky. On one hand the Russians seem to be omnipotent, on the other they have all these bungling secret service members that are so easy to out. But notice not by a bunch of laymen, but by a crowd led by a serious senior expert and academic. ;)
Peddling Certainty:
I think some people here are actually taking Eliott Higgins far too seriously...he is still an uneducated underwear salesman...and acts like it...case in point his recent twitter outburst at Ted Postol, calling him an 'idiot'...that just shows what a substance free clown this guy is...smoothieX12 . -> Snow Flake , 2 hours agoI briefly looked at that blog article linked to by snowflake and it is basically verbal diarrhea...bottom line is that Higgins and that Bellincat 'outfit' are best simply ignored...not worth the time or mental bandwidth to even think about...
Atlantic Council has a very great Ph.D consultant, and strategists' strategist and tacticians' tactician, Dr. Blank. He, of all places, taught in US Army War College. He taught, of course, about Russia, since he has Ph.D in Soviet/Russian "history" or whatever passes as such in US "Russian Studies" field.TTG , 19 hours agohttp://www.wikistrat.com/ex...
His strategic concepts are so devoid of even basic high school level knowledge of Russia (and her geography, BTW) that one is forced to ask how is it even possible to have this kind of "experts"? Among many outlandish ideas Dr. Blank proposed in his academic career dedicated to fighting evil Russians was to send US Navy to the Azov Sea to demonstrate the US Naval might.
http://www.atlanticcouncil....
This was one of the most profound facepalm moments of my life--I mean it. Not only Dr. Blank has no clue about Russia, he also has no clue about US Navy. Yet, he is an expert, alright.
You left the best part out of that State Department policy statement. He announced a new position, the Senior Advisor for Russian Malign Activities and Trends or SARMAT for short. That's straight out of the axis of evil mindset. How can we have a sober and productive policy towards Russia with crap like this?PRC90 -> TTG , 8 hours agoI thought that was from Duffleblog but you're right: https://www.state.gov/p/eur...Timothy Hagios -> TTG , 9 hours ago
Third para from the bottom. Part of that $380 million must be Bellingcat's budget.I can't wait to see what awful person is selected for this role. Also, Sarmat is also the name for Russia's newest ICBM, which makes one wonder what was on the back of their minds when they came up with this one.ted richard , 4 hours agowashingtons foreign policy visa vie russia and china is as yet unable to reach the psychological stage of sublimation. frustrated, angry and demoralised that they can not militarily atttack russia once and for all putting paid ....to who is the biggest dog in the yard...... american elites lash out ineffectually using various media, economic and financial games to assuage their inability to get their way.each iteration of this plan becomes weaker and less effective than the previous one leading to more rage at being thwarted.
where the current crop of american ruling elites are concerned we are talking about 2 factors.... a profound lack of a really good cosmopolitan education and a near total lack of appreciation for how weak the american industrial base has become the past 30 years (you can not intimidate powerful nations if your military technology is 1 or more generations BEHIND)
an apt understanding of washingtons dilemma is best grasped reading the kubler-ross stages of grieving over a dying loved one. in this case the dying loved one is american exceptionalism and the l godlike power that goes with it for the 1/100 or 1%.
its russia and chinas job to assist america to reach the acceptance stage as peacefully as possible while allowing as much face saving as possible for washington and their ruling class. at the end of the day everyone wants to go on living. the next 15 years ought to be quite exciting.
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Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
Red Ryder , Oct 11, 2018 5:13:17 PM | link
Christ was crucified because of the Russians. GRU and Putin conspired to poison him at the Last Supper. The actual death on the Cross was staged to cover the poisoning.
"Highly Likely" Iran had a hand in it also. Judas was a 'Persian', of course, and would have been a Shiite if he hadn't been suicidal and lived another 800 years or so.
Bellingcat is due with the official report shortly. Stay tuned.
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Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
Peter AU 1 , Oct 12, 2018 5:34:22 AM | link
Official propaganda here in oz.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-11/bellingcat-probing-whether-russian-spies-compromised-mh17-probe/10362090
The Malaysian's remarks surprised observers. At a parliamentary hearing in Canberra, foreign affairs legal officer James Larsen was asked whether Russia was directly in the frame for the atrocity."Australia believes there is conclusive evidence," he said.
Mr Loke's remarks also caught the attention of Christo Grozev, an investigator with Bellingcat, a London-based reporting website that has recently dragged several of Russia's covert disruptions into the light.
It was a "surprising dissension", he said. Malaysia was the "only country that did not fully endorse the findings of the joint investigation team".
In an interview with the ABC, Mr Grozev said Bellingcat was now actively probing whether Russia had played a role in this public display of disunity.
The team's "working hypothesis", he said, was that the entire Malaysian contingent, or one member of it, had been compromised by Russia's spies.
.......Col from OZ , Oct 12, 2018 6:47:57 AM | link
32 Peter keep up the good work! Ukraine IS RESPONSIBLY for MH17. I am of the opinion it was premeditated too.
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Oct 12, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
jsb , Oct 11, 2018 6:00:34 PM | link
@Red Ryder (14)
Even Bellingcat beginning to be outed by the Independent
not seen till now though is any questioning of Bellingcat's credentials in mainstream media. So let me hand you over, without further ado and with hearty if surprised approval, to Mary Dejevsky: not known as a Kremlin stooge or Putin troll. Yet here she is, in today's Independent, asking in all sincerity and with admirable bluntness just WTF is Bellingcat?
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Oct 11, 2018 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com
Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:40 pm
Bellingcat exclusive!!!!!Moscow Exile October 8, 2018 at 7:41 pmSecond Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin
Gosh!
Bum link again!Mark Chapman October 8, 2018 at 8:02 pmSecond Skripal Poisoning Suspect Identified as Dr. Alexander Mishkin
Where would we be without solid, honest citizen journalism like this? Bellingcat has passed the CIA, MI5, Scotland Yard and the FBI and never looked back. In fact, we have not heard Peep One from any of them since Bellingcat burst on the scene, and the British press goes straight to print from its reports, to hell with waiting for informed comment from the intelligence services or law enforcement.Cortes October 8, 2018 at 11:15 pmCome to think about it, what are their countries paying them for?
I'm looking forward to the first Bellingcat spin-offs.Jen October 9, 2018 at 8:35 pmEliot Higgins – Special Invesigator featuring Tom Cruise and introducing Sparky his lovable mongrel dog which miraculously survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre and can sniff out GRU agents a mile away.
How Sparky the lovable mongrel dog survived the Salisbury Novichok Massacre:Cortes October 9, 2018 at 11:41 pmhttps://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/881477/505e84f8-9835-4ab0-9a12-1d7ea375c032/orig
His weaknesses are sniffing power pylons and swallowing batteries.
Excellent!Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:08 amAnd following temporary employment reviewing orders at a Leicester UK women's underwear manufacturer, the unemployed Higgins then "dispensed with looking for another job so that he could devote himself to blogging full-time" and has now pogressed to being a senior fellow in the "Digital Forensic Research Laboratory" and the "Future Europe Initiative", projects run by the Washington, D.C based "think tank" the "Atlantic Council".Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 3:11 am
Higgins hard at work researchingA "kept man"? His wife must bring home the bacon then.
Well, she would if she were not a Turk.
The then 32-year-old Higgins started blogging about the civil war in Syria from his home as Brown Moses: "He had no formal intelligence training or security clearance that gave him access to classified documents. He could not speak or read Arabic. He had never set foot in the Middle East, unless you count the time he changed planes in Dubai en route to Manila, or his trip to visit his in-laws in Turkey".
As far as I am aware, he still has no credentials for his chosen field, albeit he is now a "fellow" of this and that. He has also since bursting into the bloggosphere considerably put on weight:
Higgins belongs to an obsessive coterie of self-appointed military intelligence experts who use social media to piece together critical details of faraway conflicts, often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex, these amateur analysts have honed a novel set of sleuthing skills that fuse old-fashioned detective work with new sources of intelligence generated by cell phone cameras and spread by social networks. Syria's war, widely considered the most documented conflict in history, has turned social media into a weapon of mass detection -- critical both for fighters on the ground and for faraway observers trying to make sense of the conflict.
The mind boggles: he and his fellow "amateur analysts" are often well ahead of seasoned professionals. Frequently self-taught and operating far outside the military-industrial complex !!!
See: Inside The One-Man Intelligence Unit That Exposed The Secrets And Atrocities Of Syria's War , by Bianca Boscar.
Bianca Bosker is the Executive Tech Editor of the Huffington Post.
Well who'd a-thowt!
And Higgins is also an unabashed liar:Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:29 pmEliot Higgins,: "I've not received funding from NED. Stop reading conspiracy websites"
Also Eliot Higgins "Bellingcat has received money from NED"
#BellingCrap #lieslieslies #UnderwearSalesman #CarpetSlippers pic.twitter.com/VvciGlaTtw
-- Emma (@emmadefano1) September 29, 2018
Once upon a time, nobody would dare to do what they are doing because of the danger of a ruinous lawsuit. But so long as he continues accusing the right people, the west will safeguard him from that as best it can. Maybe that's the way to go. They've left themselves without a retreat, saying this and that are 'confirmed'. Sue the outfit.Jen October 8, 2018 at 9:05 pmBum link again? well it's Bellingcrap, what else could it be but a bum link?Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 12:43 amAnd now avidly reported by the British government organ, the "independent", non-Westminster-contolled BBC:Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:06 amSkripal attack: Second Russian Salisbury suspect named
At least the BBC labels "Dr. Mishkin" as a "suspect"..
Note how Bellingtwat states that it has "conclusively" established the real identity of Petrov on evidence gleaned from "multiple open sources" and "testimony from people familiar with the person" in question.Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:10 amHow do they do this?
First to the post again and well ahead of all the Western intelligence agencies, which are obviously understaffed with incompetents and not in possession of state-of-the-art means of gathering intelligence such as . errrr, Facebook?
Moscow Exile October 9, 2018 at 1:41 am
I'm sick of Western European shite in general.Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:25 pmA few days ago, that lying old slag May appeared on stage at the Conservative Party annual conference with Abba's "Dancing Queen" playing in the bacground. May appeared to be trying to dance to the Abba hit. What a cupid old stunt!
And yesterday at an EUSSR Brussels conference, EU chief-executive and piss-artist Juncker appears to have been possibly trying to take the piss out of that old, lying bag May's gyrations:
Dear God. She gives new meaning to 'wooden', and makes Pinocchio look like he was made of quicksilver.Mark Chapman October 9, 2018 at 3:09 amYes, their resources really do beat all, don't they? Able to trawl through Russians' private records at will, even those ominously marked, "Not for public release". But then, they have lots of willing helpers inside Russia, which the western intelligence agencies officially have not. Makes you wonder how Russia can miss catching them, innit, considering the intertubes are strictly controlled in Russia and all their intelligence transactions are in the public domain? I mean, with their troll farms and all their snoopy organizations?Jen October 9, 2018 at 3:46 amBellingcrap could have just mentioned its sources during the course of its article instead of proclaiming that it's going to detail in another post to be supposedly published today (9 October 2018) the methodology it and The Insider Russia used and the information trail established. Perhaps a sign that Bellingcrap is starting to feel some pressure to lift its game to a level acceptable to its masters at The Atlantic Council?kirill October 9, 2018 at 8:16 pmI guess the belled cat thinks he's immune from some "GRU" hit. LOL.et Al October 9, 2018 at 2:32 amExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. BellEndCat can only manage the former. Still, it's good enough for the BBC who this morning spoke to a (former?) Georgian minister who was saying that if the West was united and stopped Russia from invading Georgia in 2008, then Ukraine, Crimea, Skripals etc. wouldn't have happened, followed by BBC correspondent Norton who said that 'was about right'.cartman October 9, 2018 at 10:14 amDon't forget that Bellingcat is linked to the Stasi:Forgot about this: Der Spiegel outed Bellingcat analyst as former full-time Stasi goon. https://t.co/kfB69NuQ6N
-- Yasha Levine (@yashalevine) October 9, 2018
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Oct 08, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
Alfred (Cairns) , Oct 6, 2018 8:01:38 PM | link
psychohistorian , Oct 7, 2018 2:05:57 AM | linkThe Netherlands lost all credibility with their fake investigation of the MH17 false flag.
"MH17 -- DUTCH PREPARE MISSILE ATTACK ON MOSCOW"
http://johnhelmer.net/mh-17-dutch-prepare-missile-attack-on-moscow/
I hope their nationalists get back control of their own government before too long.
Here is a typical piece of nonsense inspired by fear of democracy. There is definitely a panic in the works.
"The New Dutch Disease Is White Nationalism: An upstart far-right party in the Netherlands threatens to entrench xenophobia in one of Europe's most progressive countries. "
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/20/the-new-dutch-disease-is-white-nationalism/
Below is a link to a posting by Eric Zuesse writing that Ukraine is now the attempted flash point for WWIIIUS Switching to Ukraine as Location to Start World War III Against Russia
I continue to believe that China has made it quite clear to the US that any nukes headed to Russia will be presumed aimed at them and be retaliated against....so I don't see nuke war but continued economic war and the less and less international mayhem as Russia/China continue to hem in the dying empire beast
Before the end of this year the world will be tied up into gridlock between the factions that in my mind continue to represent the culturally imbued concepts of public or private money/finance.
consensus versus bullying styles of management. I am tired of bullying and think many others are also....the example we just saw with the Supreme Court circus and John Cornyn saying the the Senate wouldn't be bullied....
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Sep 30, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com
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MH17. Russia was immediately blamed and it's been a fact-free Gish gallop since then: flight routes changed retroactively , sudden discoveries of "evidence" defying the laws of physics , faked up intercepts , a potential suspect gets a veto but the owners of the airplane are shut out , blame Russia before the inquiry is finished , no sign of Kerry's promised data but "social media and common sense" instead, radars switched off , damage ignored when it doesn't fit the story .
But, finally, a mistake: the Ukrainians came up with a fact .
Missile parts have serial numbers, those serial numbers are recorded in logbooks, logbooks exist and the numbers can be looked up . Those parts were from a Buk missile supplied to a Soviet AD unit in the Ukrainian SSR in 1986 and the missile remained there when the USSR broke up.
Oh, and Bellingcat's favourite video is a fake .
Conclusions:
1) that particular missile had nothing to do with MH17;
2) the Ukrainians shot MH17 down either on purpose or by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ).
But let's gallop round the fact-free track again .
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Sep 27, 2018 | www.moonofalabama.org
TJ , Sep 26, 2018 1:25:05 PM | link
THE BBC is heavily pushing Bellingcats Skripal nonsense on the 6PM main news, BBC story
To me the ears look very different in the 2 pictures presented.
Den Lille Abe , Sep 26, 2018 2:07:56 PM | link
Bellingcat is MI6, so what do you expect.
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Sep 25, 2018 | turcopolier.typepad.com
How difficult would it be for the SBU to paint a Ukrainian BUK launcher to look exactly like a Russian one and drive it round Ukraine for a while stopping long enough every now and then for members of the public to take photos of it and post them on social media. Unless the MH17 investigation can produce photos of the alleged BUK launcher crossing into Russia, the authenticity of the photos can and should be questioned.RaisingMac -> mourjou , 4 days agoThe really important question is still why were commercial airliners allowed to fly over Ukrainian airspace in the east when it was clearly known that heavy SAM launchers were active and at least one high-flying aircraft had already been shot down?
There was also a rumor going around that MH17's original route was over the Black Sea, but that Kiev ATC had them alter their path in mid-flight to go over Donbass, supposedly because of inclement weather. If so, very suspicious.PRC90 -> mourjou , 5 days agoQantas ceased flying those routes months before MH17 solely on the basis that medium range SAMs were in the ORBAT of at least one of the combatants.PRC90 , 5 days agoThe airspace is owned by Ukraine who collects air navigation charges from overflying aircraft, hence there would have been a financial incentive to keep accepting flight plans for those routes.
Tech equipment like this usually has two types of logbook. One is the daily serviceability log signed off after each functional test and inspection, and kept with the equipment, and the other is a set of maintenance logs for each system within the (eg.) missile. The latter would be held at the higher echelon maintenance facility waiting for the thing to come home and get fixed or overhauled.Fred -> PRC90 , 5 days agoIf the Russians gave the munition to the Ukrainians as a permanent allocation, they would have kept basic details but would have given the maintenance books en masse to the Ukrainians due to the weight and volume of these in paper format. They would still have enough to ID what they actually sold or gave away.
The article by Pepe Escobar in Asia Times quotes the Russian MOD, which links the manufacturing serial number of two engine components back to the site of manufacturing and then tracks that forward into the final assembly - the missile. Then the Russians track the missile to the unit it was assigned to in Ukraine.Snow Flake -> Fred , 3 days ago"So now we know, via declassified files, that the engine of the missile 9D131 allegedly had the serial number 8869032. And a "passport" for the nozzle cluster 9D13105000 carried the number 8-30-113. The actual missile number was 886847349, they said."
I guess I should add it wasn't exactly exactly excitement that made me comment twice. But ... technical ...Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days agoI did correct one of those two comments. ... Once the first showed up. Incidentally after the second. I regret this now. Somewhat.
Had no sound initially. Interestingly the Russian version works even without it. Somehow.
my initial question circled around this statement.
2. The videos are fake. The sightline evidence is, to my mind,
apodictic. I've seen other arguments that they are fake but these are
the most convincing. (I do like the backwards driving TEL)..... That I surely didn't understand without sound. Or maybe not to the extend I would have liked.
Check Patrick's linked video: "Russian MoD briefing". About 26 min in. But I like the video's slowness. Did the JIT seriously use that type of open source "evidence" too? Hard to believe. As hard to believe as the enormous success of its founder? Who even made it into our news for a short time as British expert.Snow Flake -> Fred , 5 days agoConcerning Pepe, I was pleased about this:
Meanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group, allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.
PRC90 -> Fred , 5 days agoMeanwhile, Russian Investigative Committee spokeswoman Svetlana Petrenko also challenged video footage used by Bellingcat, a UK-based citizen journalist group , allegedly proving that a self-propelled firing system of the Russian 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade was involved in the downing of MH17.I thought that's exactly what they do in Patrick's Russian visual evidence video link above starting around 26 minutes into. Made me look up his site: its English, French, Russian by now. ;)
thanks for the link.
Yes, that's the original manufacturer's data, and given the manufacture date's proximity to the transfer date it looks like the munitions were made specifically for a Ukraine order, which may indicate sequential serial numbers across the batch.Michael , 5 days agoThe actual maintenance document bundle would disclose if any internal serial numbered systems were swapped out for newer Russian hardware after 1986 during the days of Rus-Ukraine brotherly love. This would have a higher chance of occurring if the entire SAM system was on a Russian maintenance contract, however .. I think not because the Ukr's had plenty of rocket expertise and I suggest they kept the lot, maintenance document and all.
It's up to the Ukr's to produce evidence of what they say the do not have.
The "cui bono" is the first thing to investigate. Russia had none. Ukrainian had plenty of obvious one at that.Peter Williams , 5 days agoIn fact shortly after the tragedy I was contacted by The saker francophone to developp some argument about this. Note that it was before this francophone site was re-structured. My research focused on the Buck and their presence in Ukraine vast left-over of the URSS echelon strategy storage... with scarcely any maintenance.
Then I focused on the proximity fuse system (a US invention from WWII, which in fact started the first electronic industry), short wawes sent and received, complicated set-up and involving springs to actually trigger the explosion.
Optimal distance was 15 to 50 meters , explosion from little above and missile coming from front (not to be on pursuit mode).My hypothesis still is that the Buck was pre-1991 era and not very well maintained, that the explosion did occur a little prematurely, killing the crew, causing extensive damages, but not actually destroying the plane capacity to fly
There enter the phantom Ukrainian hunter jet giving the "coup de grace". And this could explain the round entry holes, with on the same picture (left door of the cockpit) exit holes.
Russian defense Ministry was not fully affirmative of the presence of this fighter jet, but was fully positive on 3 buck systems with active radar (acquisition range 140 kilometers, that's 9 minutes to get ready).
The story of the pilot, there are some testimony at his landing, about a rather livid and upset fellow, he did divorce and commit suicide. What this is worse, I don't know.
note: for other reasons I did stop very fast collaborating wit the Saker Francophone.
Well the Brits keep such detailed notes of their weaponry. About 30 years ago I had the inner cocking lever of a Bofors 40/60 break, and within a few days we had all the documentation of its manufacture in Britain during WWII - names of the factory, the machinist, heat treating and quality inspection. All that for one small part of the breech block. You can guarantee that the Soviets would be just as methodical about a significant item like a missile.Patrick Armstrong , 6 days agoThe photo is too tiny, but if you click on it it opens to a better size.Ulenspiegel , 4 days agoPatrick Armstrong -> Ulenspiegel , 3 days ago"Personally, I remain to be convinced that a Buk brought it down: not enough "bowtie" fragments."You still ignore the fact that even now the Russian admit that a BUG brought down the airplane. It was the Russian side which produced a lot of ridiculous statements (ground attack plane with limited service height was launching platform), faked internet sites (SU25) and then quite silently, when the official investigation of the debris of the PLANE could not longer be ignored, admitted that it was a BUG.
BTW: Experts were already a few days after the incident able to conclude that a ground based system must very likely be the culprit, simply by analyzing the many hundred photos of the plan fragments. It was clear that a very high density of fragments were in the front section, while missiles launched by airplanes would have caused damage in other sections (esp. wings around engines).
Google is your friend Play HideMichael -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days agoThe Buck system is composed of 3 vehicles one is for the long range acquisition radar. The missile does have an in-build acquisition radar but with a 35 miles range. The idea, and Bellingcat pictures supporting it, of a lonely lorry with a missing missile, was ridiculous.Max van der Werff , 3 days agoWhile typing i get confused and have edited: it was a picture of the left side cockpit, and it did show round entrance holes and rugged exit. An ex German pilot was positive it was gun amo marks.
Yes I did read your piece in Russia Insider the day it was published. Thanks for your work.
Telar driving backwards is incorrect. Russian MoD mistakenly took route presented by JIT as correct. View HidePrince Monolulu , 3 days agoELINT, and what we have not been told about, it is the key here.Snow Flake , 3 days agoThe individual emitter characteristics of the surveillance and tracking radars associated with every BUK is in a US EORBAT database.
The chances that a BUK radar going into its CW terminal guidance mode was not intercepted and recorded are pretty slim. This was a hot war on NATO's borders, and it is likely US special forces were there, if only as observers.So, the US will know which BUK system was used, and its deployment history (at least every location in which its radars transmitted). Their silence about this suggests that the system was Ukrainian.
Ingolf Eide , 5 days agoPetri Krohn is unconvinced by the vanishing point argument pointing out that the Buk TEL does not sit flat on the trailer.Yes, there seems to be something beneath the Buk-Tel, whatever it is. There are other trailer images that don't have this thing underneath. One can see it better in the video. Who is Petri Krohn?
What puzzles me me more are the "the truck's (blue)" lines. Why would you take the back of the cabin? Vs the sides as with the Buk-Tel on the trailer to make your point? For special effect? Heighten the difference to earlier neatly converging vanishing points?
Last but not least in that specific shot there is a slightly complicating camera angle. The shot is a bit sideways from the driving car. Which does not quite fit into the earlier continual straight ahead pattern.
But yes, the JIP did its best in impressive visualization too. See video below.
*******
Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster/Narrative conference 24 May 2018. The precise numbers are given here for the first time? Publicly? Pressure on the Russian. After all one has a lot more evidence one does not show we are told. From that perspective the response is not bad. See first video linked below.So now we have new offer for the so far main suspect, the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, we are offered to look into the Ukrainian 223 Tereboylya Anti-Aircraft Brigade, now stationed in Stryi. The earlier Russian military unit 20152.
https://www.om.nl/onderwerp...
Here comes the more entertaining earlier version of the Public Prosecutors Service collection. There is more. Anyway, I vaguely remember this one. A visually coherent narrative for easy public consumption. It feels this was centrally challenged.
Play HidePatrick,Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days agoRe my earlier comment, the JIT info request seemed a bit odd. You'd think they would have access to Russians who could give them chapter and verse on what these numbers mean. Any thoughts?
I haven't changed my position from this https://patrickarmstrong.ca...Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days ago
Leaving the port engine intake out is all I need to convince me that it's just part of the anti-Russia warYes, I read your article at the time and again just now. It still makes sense to me.Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days agoPresumably the warhead on this missile identified by the MoD was of the older "non bow-tie" type (as per AA)? If so, it's all starting to look a bit like a QED, is it not?
Right from the beginning I wondered if Russia would have captured enough data to know what happened. Is that how you see it and if so, how do you rate the odds that Russia has been playing an incredibly long game on this one?
We'd all like to wish they were but my thinking is that only when the numbers appeared were they able to have an actual FACT on which they could work. All the accusations against Moscow are simple assertions with no facts you can get your teeth into. Finally the Ukes were stupid enough to present a fact.Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 4 days agoYes.Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days agoSo are you also suggesting that whatever evidence the Russians collected at the time of the incident wasn't incontrovertible enough to overcome what would be the automatic Western presumption that it must be faked?
In other words, while the Russians may know what happened they were previously unable to prove it to the satisfaction of a sceptical audience?
2 days after View HideIngolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 3 days agoIndeed, although not quite what I meant by "sceptical audience"!Patrick Armstrong -> Ingolf Eide , 5 days agoYou're not suggesting that I think that the JIT is anything other than a coverup, are you?Ingolf Eide -> Patrick Armstrong , 5 days agoNo, not at all.Ingolf Eide , 5 days agoIt's almost amusing. At the JIT May 24 update briefing, Politie.nl reported that the following request for information was made:Snow Flake -> Ingolf Eide , 3 days ago"Jennifer Hurst, Commander of the Australian Federal Police, explained, on the basis of an animation that the JIT urges the public to think about answering three specific questions about both rocket components found on the crash site.
Do you recognize the handwriting of the number on the venturi? Do you have information about the numbers on the venturi and the casing? Or do you know anyone who knows about the meaning of those numbers? Are you or do you know someone with information about the missile in which these parts have been placed and to which unit this missile was delivered?
Hurst: "If you have an answer to one or more of these questions, then we urgently ask you to contact the JIT.'"
So it's just the Russian MoD being a good citizen . . .
P.S. At the same briefing the JIT noted they couldn't be certain these missile fragments belonged to the one that brought down MH 17. That caveat aside, however, this does seem a rather comprehensive response from Russia.
Ingolf, they even offer witness protections programs.Ingolf Eide -> Snow Flake , 3 days agoWonderful. No takers I assume?PRC90 -> Ingolf Eide , 4 days agoWill we ever see the chain-of-custody record of these items ?Ingolf Eide -> PRC90 , 3 days agoIt would also be interesting to hear from (ex) tech intel exploitation people who have been out and about scavenging up bits of expended rocket case in the past, if in their experience the case displayed here should have been more deformed by it's terminal velocity (80 meters/second ?) impact with the ground.
PRC90,Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I didn't, and still don't, have a useful response to either of those questions.
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May 19, 2015 | http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/05/17/why-this-ukrainian-revolution-may-be-doomed-too/
At home, there is the possibility of more protests, a paralyzed government, and the rise of politicians seeking accommodation with Putin. "Slow and unsuccessful reforms are a bigger existential threat than the Russian aggression," said Oleksiy Melnyk, a security expert at Kiev's Razumkov Center. Even if Ukrainians don't return to the street, they'll get a chance to voice their discontent at the ballot box. Local elections are due in the fall - and the governing coalition between Poroshenko and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is so shaky that nobody can rule out an early parliamentary vote.
In its international relations, Ukraine is living on borrowed time - and money. A dispute over restructuring $23 billion in debt broke into the open last week with the Finance Ministry accusing foreign creditors of not negotiating in good faith ahead of a June deadline. An EU summit this week is likely to end in more disappointment, as Western European countries are reluctant to grant Ukrainians visa-free travel.
Kiev has become an accidental, burdensome ally to the West. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization only paid lip service to future Ukrainian membership, while the EU, which never had any intention of taking in Ukraine, pushed an association agreement out of bureaucratic habit more than strategic vision.
... ... ...
The least charitably inclined claim that Poroshenko prosecuted the war in eastern Ukraine as a way of delaying reform. What's undeniable is that the shaky ceasefire leaves the Kiev government at the mercy of Putin and his proxies. Should anything start going right for Poroshenko, the fighting could flare back up at any moment.
Ukrainian security officials say that the enemy forces gathering in the separatist regions are at their highest capability yet. The most alarming observation is that the once ragtag band of rebels - backed up by regular Russian troops in critical battles - is increasingly looking like a real army thanks to weapons and training provided by Russia.
... ... ...
Everybody in Kiev understands that there's no way of reconquering lost territory by force. Ukrainian politicians publicly pledge to win back breakaway regions through reform and economic success. What they hope for is that sanctions will cause enough problems inside Russia that the Kremlin will run out of resources to sabotage Ukraine. Wishful thinking won't replace the painful reforms ahead.
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Sep 23, 2018 | www.unz.com
ALCvA , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:11 am GMT
I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law. In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq. In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague. In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.Kees van der Pijl , says: • Website July 9, 2018 at 6:35 am GMTThus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.
@ALCvA I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:41 am GMTThus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media. I also have this in the book, with the same details, and after a discussion that also includes Malaysia's arms purchases in Russia, I write 'But we should be reminded that we are looking at a 'systems event', a conditional structure of great complexity, in which even factors that are highly unlikely to have been the cause (such as punishing Malaysia or killing Putin) may yet have played a role, at some point, in overcoming moral or other barriers.'
jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:24 am GMT" However, irrespective of the actual perpetrator, and whether it was an intentional act or an accident, there is no doubt about the West's intent to exploit the event to the maximum. "The key sentence. Dutch vice first minister Asscher at the time of the disaster was on vacation in the south of France. This fool, in a Dutch tv show, explained the need for secrecy, in the afternoon of the day of the MH17 disaster prime minister Rutte called Asscher on his mobile, and asked him to call back on a land line 'so that the Russians could not listen in'.
Until now no Dutch people's representative dared to ask Rutte what was so secret then that the Russians had tobe prevented from listening in.
The only thing I can think of is that Rutte told Asscher 'we want the Russians to get the blame'.It is interesting to see how the MH17 propaganda follows the example of the holocaust propaganda. Monuments, remembrances, accusations, but never any concrete facts. One might also say 'follows the Sept 11 propaganda'. As a USA politician said 'MH17 is the Dutch Sept 11′.
I did not read the article carefully, so I do not know if it mentions that the key suspect -- Ukraine -- is part of the investigation organisation, or that Ukraine spied on the investigation.
But the essential question remains, except for an accident, why would Russia shoot down a passenger plane ? Putin is not stupid, he does not do things that just harm him.
@Wizard of OzTom Welsh , says: July 9, 2018 at 11:55 am GMTIndeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.
He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/ showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
What happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 CommentsFacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 although he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations". "Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Of course this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.
niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.
Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.
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Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
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April 2018 " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. " A weird compelling case.They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it. Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
I am not in the least convinced. The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions. About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide. If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done. But a BUK flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ? All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etcBaron , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:30 pm GMT"In February 2016 that assertion had still been dismissed as unfit for evidence by the Dutch chief prosecutor on the JIT, Fred Westerbeke, in a letter to victims' relatives. How can it possibly have become the core component of the case for the prosecution two years and two months later?"That is extremely puzzling -- indeed, inexplicable -- if you believe that the object of the exercise is to determine the truth and to see justice done. But it isn't.
As long ago as Plato's "Politeia" ("Republic"), a widely-held view was that "justice is the will of the stronger", as Thrasybulos argues in that dialogue. As far as I can see, that is still the most popular view, and it is certainly the one supported by Western governments. (The Skripal affair is another prominent case in point: the UK government declared who was guilty without the tedious formalities of investigation, indictment, and trial).
The real object of the Western elites -- as embodied in the statements of their servants in government and the media -- is to control public opinion. In this endeavour, precise accuracy, consistency and objective truth are not only unnecessary hindrances -- they are positive handicaps. The purpose is to imprint on the dim public consciousness some desired certainties, such as that Russia is aggressive and barbarous, that Mr Putin is a wicked soulless murderer, and so on.
That is not done by proving a case to courtroom standards. It is done by loudly repeating memorable and emotional slogans, over and over, until everyone vaguely internalizes them and anyone who dares to disagree is attacked for disloyalty.
Hence the change in value of the Bellingcat assertions referred to by the quoted passage is not only unsurprising -- it is exactly what we should expect. Yesterday's completely unproven allegation is today's generally known fact.
An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.Beefcake the Mighty , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:47 pm GMTOn the MH17:
Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?
The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgment on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.Mike P , says: July 9, 2018 at 12:49 pm GMT@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the Ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.Mr. Hack , says: July 9, 2018 at 1:05 pm GMT
THEREFORE : x=yboth are true.
Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.Wizard of Oz , says: July 9, 2018 at 2:47 pm GMT
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)
I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?
@Beefcake the Mighty Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here. Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn't even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:03 pm GMT@animalogic There is nothing "gibberish" about this article. The author's quite clearly states he will deal with the historical context surrounding the downing of MH 17: this he does, if in a somewhat abbreviated form.Den Lille Abe , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:48 pm GMT
If you have a problem with his history, then argue for it -- don't rely on insults like "little green men" Ukies do have a problem with history. Their predecessors, Bandera and Shukhevych, sided with Hitler, the loser of WWII. So, this problem cannot be solved for them, as they don't have time machine to change history. They can still spew venom, though, trying to compensate for their incurable inferiority complex.The qui bono aspect is always interesting. Ukraine would have something to gain. Rebels nothing. Rebel factions having taken one for loot and screwing up is definitely a possibility, if they possess Buk systems. But I do not buy, the option that Putin "ordered" the shoot down, Putin is not stupid.AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 4:49 pm GMT
Which can indeed be postulated about Poroschenko.I am not sure that it makes sense to connect MH370 with MH17. Not because Western secret services are incapable of this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up. They still have trouble covering up the murder of Seth Rich, who gave the evidence of DNC criminal activity to Assange. BTW, that "investigation" already lasts for two years, with no end in sight. Quite natural when the fox "investigates" its own depredations in the hen house.FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:20 pm GMTHowever, numerous well-known facts directly contradict the "official" narrative pushed by the State Department and its lackeys, including the scum posing as government in Kiev.
1. This "investigation" is being dragged on for four years, i.e., it is a lot longer than any investigation in airline history where the remains of the airplane were recovered. Judging by its length and meager results, this "investigation" is simply a cover-up, pretty clumsy at that.
2. If one discards the "evidence" from social media, which any self-respecting court of law would through away as hearsay, there is virtually nothing left. Besides, those who fund "Bellingcat" are surely involved in the crime and subsequent spin.
3. Exploding Buk missile generates thousands of metal fragments that produce very characteristic numerous holes in the fuselage. These were not found, and very few ostensibly Buk fragments presented by JIT are a ridiculous number, not to mention that legally necessary chain of custody was not observed.
4. Buk missile leaves long-lasting smoke trail in the sky visible for many miles. I am not talking about contrails, I am talking about a huge pillar of black smoke. Not a single witness reported seeing that. Why?
5. Curiously, Ukraine vehemently denied having any Buks (this is Soviet weapon), then displayed a few at the military parade. WTF?
6. Satellite pictures that Kerry promised even before the debris cooled down were never presented in four years. Why?
7. Nobody bothered to explain a round hole in pilot's cabin, visible on many photos, that looks exactly like a hole that would be left by the round from SU cannon. Also, the issue of the second plane, actually first raised by witnesses in BBC report, was completely ignored. BBC video was removed from their site. Why?
8. Malaysia did not subscribe to the obviously false politically motivated recent "conclusion" of JIT. Even Belgium decided not to disgrace itself by supporting this "conclusion". Curious, no?
Yet all international airlines made their conclusions long time ago: they fly over Russia, but avoid Ukrainian airspace, like the airspace of North Korea. They won't explain their actions, though, as they don't want to anger very influential forces pushing a different narrative.
To summarize, Roman dictum "cui bono" is the best clue we have. It clearly points at the perpetrators.
@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMTAlso, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked? You're confusing things hereThe claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire [incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]
The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey
Specifically the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead
They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1
Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead
Here is the DSB final report of October 2015
On page 132 we have this
' it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile '
There is the problem right there The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38′
The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey the right shows the response of the DSB which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source page 132
' According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead '
So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source
And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry
In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are
And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years having been long ago replaced by updated versions
I would not trust neither the dutchies nor the ukrobanderisti in anything .jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:33 pm GMT@Wizard of Oz As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage. No confusion whatsoever.jilles dykstra , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMT
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.@Tulips I had read that MH17 was ordered by Ukrainian air traffic control to divert from its original flight course, directing it to fly over the war zone. Is that true or not? If true, who ordered that change and what rational have they given? It was ordered to fly lower.FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 5:49 pm GMT
This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
As far as I know no explanation was ever given@Wizard of Oz I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board's exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain's body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version - admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo - of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 6:00 pm GMTAlso, doesn't it strike you as very strange
(a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane's cockpit?
(b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'
Again you are garbling known facts there was never any Russian 'satellite photo' it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time
The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues' apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous
@jilles dykstra The same nonsense that too many would be implicated in Sept 11.FB , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:19 pm GMT
In this case, my estimate, twenty You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!AnonFromTN , says: July 9, 2018 at 7:28 pm GMTBut, when you say this,
Are you sure?
[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
__________________It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )
The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.
Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.
It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. Ed there is nothing we can 'analyze' from a distance that would put us in the same category as the ridiculous 'Bellingcat'
The fact of the matter is that the fuselage wreckage was handed over by the Donbas rebels to the West which they probably should not have done considering that they end up getting blamed by use of that same evidence which was in their hands
The second issue is that there are TWO separate and very different investigations the first was the accident investigation by the DSB, which is done in accordance with ICAO rules and we would presume it is professional you will note that they did not try to establish who fired the shot [or shots]
That is what the ICAO rules state the point of these investigations is to find out WHAT happened and to make recommendations so that this does not happen in the future
The second JIT investigation is clearly a politicized joke actually citing Bellingcat social media 'pictures' and such as 'evidence'
There is nothing that can be done about that it is clearly a kangaroo court
However, the more one examines the DSB investigation, the more one is alarmed there too I have already mentioned here in some detail some of the discrepancies in all honesty, I would say that it is NOT in fact established to my satisfaction in that DSB report that the findings are whaat they say they are
But again, there is no point in trying to do an Eliott Higgins here to really find out what hit that plane we cannot go on pictures alone those actual pieces need to be expertly examined
@edNels Well I for one am getting sick of so much intrigue about all these crazy events that are so gaddammed complicated and mysterious and nobody knows who dun it! never!republic , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:43 pm GMTBut, when you say this,
Are you sure?
[ this kind of heinous crime, but simply because there would be too many people involved, and someone would be talking, unless secret services murdered them all. This is unlikely, as there would be dozens of unexplained deaths, too many to cover up.]
__________________It would be nice if somewhere in the field of concern or blogosphere or what ever, an upright knowledgeable individual would provide details about the differences between the projectiles that come from aircraft on board cannons, and those that would be used on missiles that explode in near proximity to their targets. (verses those that heat seek up into the exhaust pipes )
The holes might be different between these two or more different delivery systems.
Everybody has seen the photos of holes in the fuselage around the cabin area that suggest entry and exit, but it should be commonly enough known more precisely and what is the difference in the size, shape, etc. to extrapolate from the photos of holes in the fuselage if it is 50/or cal. or missile born shrapnel or what. It would be ok if stated that there isn't any appreciable difference discernible too.
It is out there hanging whether or not the holes are good evidence or not, because nobody has further developed that part of it far as I have seen. I am not sure how many "accidental" deaths or "murders in the course of botched robbery" (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.
I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I'd love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.
In July 2014 the place that I would go to find interesting information on that Malaysian flight was Zero Hedge.Respect , says: July 9, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMTOn July 17, 2014 the following article appeared in ZH with hundreds of comments.
Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
The article is still available on line, but Zero Hedge has purged all the comments. It also seems that all ZH articles older than a few months are purged of their comments.
I wonder why this purge is taking place?
Glad that UR does not follow a similar practice.
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/09/who-was-stepan-bandera/FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 1:11 am GMTThose guys blew up the plain , and are trying to blow up everything
@Anonymous Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:29 am GMTAs far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.
However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,
This is exactly my conclusion.
I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.
Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months
British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down
As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.
A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route -- which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia -- for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.-- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17
FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine
@FKA MaxThe Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMTThis is exactly my conclusion.
However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone ,...
I blame the people who didn't close off or avoid that airspace earlier.
Many airlines have avoided Ukrainian airspace for months
British Airways, Qantas and Cathay Pacific among those who have taken detours around area where MH17 was brought down
- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/airlines-avoid-ukraine-airspace-mh17
As air traffic control authorities banned all aircraft from flying through eastern Ukrainian airspace -- which is likely to increase flight costs and journey times -- it has emerged that several airlines had already chosen to avoid the area.A spokesman for Qantas said the Australian flag carrier had not used the route for months. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it had been taking a detour for "quite some time". British Airways, Korean Air Lines, Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines and Taiwan's China Airlines had also been avoiding the east Ukraine route - which is the most commonly used between Europe and Asia - for months. British Airways declined to comment on its previous flight routes.
[...]
She said airlines' costs dropped considerably when Nato forces secured Afghanistan, as they had previously taken big detours to avoid the area. "As missile systems develop, and the Chinese and Russians sell them around the world, this problem is not going to go away," Quintana said.FAA issues warning for U.S. planes to avoid flights over Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9EWwNbSVE
This is the best video on the MH-17 incident, in my opinion. The Buk anti-aircraft missile system/launcher was brought into the area from Russia because Ukrainian planes had been bombing residential/civilian buildings in the area. The Ukrainian bombers had also used civilian airliners as cover and flown in their trails according to Russian separatists:
Return to the MH17 Crash Site: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 87)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYEH6Tfzouo
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
Flight MH17: Ukraine releases video of 'Buk missile unit'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw
BREAKING - MH17 Russian BUK launcher in Makiivka Ukraine video July 17 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sviL113eOU
MH17 was downed by Russian BUK. Special Investigation. Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb9Axg4DaeY
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
If you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.
This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :
PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.
As I say, get a grip. We -- those with properly functioning intellects -- know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.The Alarmist , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:15 am GMTHe seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author isWhat happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 CommentsFacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17Recent Comments
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:"Radar is able to detect two different objects."
Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.
I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.
I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.Vojkan , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:50 am GMTHe seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author isWhat happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 CommentsFacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.Leave a comment
Beantwoording brieven aan kabinet over MH17
Ukraine deputy minister "JIT evidence is enough to prosecute Russian military leaders for downing of MH17"
MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Kremlin lies on Syria are just as notorious as its lies on MH17Recent Comments
Roman Shein on MH17 four years later. What do we know?
Roman Shein on Nederlandse MH17-missie bespioneerd door Oekraïne
Басар on Eight issues with the "fake photo " claim of Max van der Werff
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
vam on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Joerg Heinrich on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Slozhny on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
admin on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
sotilaspassi on Russian lies part 133: "we do not use BUK missiles produced in 1986".
Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:"Radar is able to detect two different objects."
Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.
I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.
I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 11:56 am GMT@jilles dykstra It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 12:44 pm GMT"MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the 'optimum' altitude," the airline said.
"However, an aircraft's altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet."@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:19 pm GMTIt's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
1. Der.2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'
3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.
4.
An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'
there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)republic , says: July 10, 2018 at 4:56 pm GMT
what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine -- in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.
When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.
The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.
Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further NorthEye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non July 10, 2018 at 4:59 pm GMT
@Wizard of Oz We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn't leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:12 pm GMT
No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.@jilles dykstra Here in the Netherlands immediately Russia was blamed.denk , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMT
The day before th disaster we resisted sanctions, our export to Russia, the day after sanctions were allowed.
The question what interest Russia could have had in shooting down an airliner has never been asked, not even now.
As to an accident, very accidental that a plane from Schiphol with a few hundred Dutch was shot down. You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.How it all began .FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 5:56 pm GMT2005, as per the Guardian
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, '2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners.mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air .[tip of an iceberg]
From these facts alone,
Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.
As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once .
one stone killing three birds ?Elementary, Watson !
@Wizard of Oz My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard - not a good look if one doesn't want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:04 pm GMTYes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There's your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).
As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn't the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880
If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.
** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)
' Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun '
Sure thing, Perry Mason LOL btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest' nice work
For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon
Here's what that BBC article you linked to says
' The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day -- 160 planes flew over the region '
Now here is the rest of the story for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day a region more than half the size of Germany only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area
Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country
Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV] comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]
Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk
Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it
The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic
Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations
The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity
So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route ie airway L980 big difference
Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything
Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south
There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft] and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman
As for our friend Wizard may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here
@Wizard of Oz "Simple(st) solution"!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done - surely for certain - what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:43 pm GMTYou seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee. Life is simple. "Cui bono" is the key. The rest is hot air.
@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this oneFB , says: July 10, 2018 at 6:55 pm GMThttps://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/
which seems to reproduce what I remember, and
https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement ?
' the Russian version -- admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo -- of a fighter firing a missile at MH17 '
Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever
And just to put this in perspective the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt' not from Russian sats
So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false
As for Higgins and Bellingcat we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon an 'idiot'
also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol
Hmm interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol
@Wizard of Oz Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn't encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board's report could be "conveniently [sic] dismissed". As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn't seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board's technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team's work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:07 pm GMTHe seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.
Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/
showing pretty well what a BS artist the author isWhat happened to flight MH17?
Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 CommentsFacebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedinmailby feather
Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.Van der Pijl 's ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.
Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.
Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.
A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.
Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.
Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.
Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.
Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation "I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do"
However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.
Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl "an important factor"
Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.
Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.
Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.
At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. "only these were three different explanations".
"Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack". "A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia".
I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated
"We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism," Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.
Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.
At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. "Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted"
At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.
He then talks about 'tanks with surface to air missile' on it. Even the words 'BUK TELAR' is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.
Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.
Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.
At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.
Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.
This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.
Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.
He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.
Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.
Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.
At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions "benzine"(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.
Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.
He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.
He states the book by Joost Niemoller "de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.
At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.
At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.
Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.
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4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
-- This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would've been fired by an aircraft -- that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I've seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might've missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike -- AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who'd know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
Apologies Marcel -- I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
"International relations" is not a science.Leave a comment
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Archives
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018 This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university' showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is
Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot' talk about chutzpah
Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight' yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread pretty pathetic
@anonFB , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:15 pm GMTThis article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?
As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.
2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.
3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.
The facts matter, but not to this writer. "If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive."
-- let's try to explain you, anon [115], the gist of the article.
The author wrote: "Since the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase that took part in the coup attempt, the incident over Syria would appear to fit in a framework that may also have decided the fate of Flight MH17: a provocation to throw relations with Russia into disarray, but we don't know for sure."
The author gives the governments of the US, Denmark, Ukraine, Australia, and Belgium the benefits of doubt. This is despite the outrages lies by the US and EU, lies that have resulted in the mass slaughter in the Middle East, in the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, and in the flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees from the bombed-out Middle East and with opportunistic low-IQ migrants from sub-Saharan Africa.
To understand what is going on on the eastern front, you need to familiarize yourself with this article (here on Unz Review): http://www.unz.com/article/correctly-defining-modern-zionism/
'"All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei.
This uncontestable quote provides the necessary context for the wild and vicious propaganda against the Russain Federation by the zionized criminals that have no dignity and no principles. The zionized US/EU has been following this approach -- "Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths" -- to international law and the judicial system at large.
The US/NATO have destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Serbia and more just during the last few decades. Ukraine is currently under a strain of disintegration.
The stupidity of the UK government with regard to Skripal affair illustrates the complete irrelevance of facts for the zionized deciders.
The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite imgaes) of Russian guilt. Where is the evidence?
Why Ukrainians are among the judges if some of the evidence points towards the possible criminal acts of Ukrainians?
Why has an expert in selling the ladies' underwear (E. Higgins of Bellingcat) become a principal judge and investigator re the MH17 tragedy as well as the events in Syria? The Atlantic Council and Department of War Studies at King's College London admire the ignoramus for his bold Russophobic statements, even if the highly-valued professionals and true experts have debunked the idiotic tales by Higgins.
If you want to learn more about the technical details of the tragedy, you should look for the report by the professionals on the web. Up to date, the US has been refusing to provide the satellite images over Ukraine obtained at the time of MH17 tragedy.
And please, pay attention to the important details mentioned in the article, " the F-16 that shot down the Russian jet was part of a pro-NATO unit based at Inçirlik airbase "@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:16 pm GMTIt's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
' Nothing to do with radar '
Sorry kid like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned
This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said here is a Dutch news report from 2017
And the google translation from the Dutch
' Kiev -- Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.
The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.
"More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.
Russia had handed over the data -- shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight '
I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation
@mcohen Shooting down a Malaysian passenger jet over the ukraine with a Russian missile = bringing down a russisn passenger jet over the egyptian sinai.skrik , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:31 pm GMT
THEREFORE : x=yboth are true.
is this you, Mr. Elliot Higgins?@Wizard of Oz I couldn't remember where I had seen it so I Googled for "debunked mh17 photo" and came up with a ot of sites including this oneannamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:37 pm GMThttps://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/
which seems to reproduce what I remember, and
https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.
Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.
@Mr. Hack The only thing 'insulting' is your attempt to try to cast aspersion on the objectively verifiable 'historic term' little green men':annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:48 pm GMTOn 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum...In April 2015, retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov (Игорь Касатонов (ru)) said that the "little green men" were members of Russian Spetsnaz special forces units. According to his information, Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of Ilyushin Il-76 with 500 people.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Ukrainian_crisis)
I have a problem with the author's sentiments that Ukraine was interested in drawing Russia into the conflict directly. Where's his proof for such a ridiculous statement?
Playing a little boy? Could you imagine for a sec that the lease for Russia's Black Sea Fleet had stipulated the presence of Russian military personnel in Crimea? No?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/ukraine-black-sea-fleet-russia
It is also terribly inconvenient for you that there were several referenda before the ziocon/banderite putsch in Kiev, which showed unequivocally that Crimeans wanted to have a greater independence from Kiev: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
UNDP in Crimea conducted series of polls about possible referendum on joining Russia with a sample size of 1200:
Yes No Undecided
2009 67% 1 5% 18%
2010 66% 9% 25%
2011 66% 14 % 20%
Final results from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (2014)
Join the Russian Federation: 1,233,002
Restore the 1992 constitution and remain as a part of Ukraine: 31,997@Mr. Hackannamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:53 pm GMTNobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. Since when the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
https://nodisinfo.com/hacked-emails-prove-zionist-ihor-kolomoiskly-mh17/
https://southfrontdutch.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/de-man-achter-mh17-ihor-kolomoyskyi/
@Wizard of Oz OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here "the highest sources from the Russian Federation".annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 7:59 pm GMTI have answered this above. You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.
@Wizard of Oz Nothing to do with radar. I'm sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:15 pm GMTIt's past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don't seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn't have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.
Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.
1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie
2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one's throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with
3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons - in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.
4. Just added in... It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?
So what's the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?
I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as "political" is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.
FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don't know whether that has any legs.
Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.AnonFromTN , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:16 pm GMTpetitio principii fallacy?
hey lizard,
are you suggesting that Putin benefited by the MH17 ploy?
or,
are you suggesting that the ZUS putsch to install an overtly anti-Russian regime in Kyiv was a cynical act of the Fiend to punish Putin for meddling in their scheme to destroy seven nations in the greater Levant- that Israel considers inconvenient to its expansion?
And so once Putin set about restoring sanity to the region; MH17 and assorted lies about 'assassinated journalists' and persecuted Pussy riot girls and ethnic Russians in Donbas being murdered by the zio-quislings in Kyiv, etc., were all part of the Fiend throwing a temper tantrum.
Yes? No?
@Wizard of Oz You seem to be clever enough when you try hard... Do you understand why I say your use of "cui bono" is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy? The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.FB , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:33 pm GMT@Wizard of Oz So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.FKA Max , says: • Website July 10, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMTIf the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level - or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine "I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us".Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).
If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so - or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?
' If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000 '
You have that completely backwards it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off
The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330 the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]
The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there
There is nothing unusual about any of this ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude
[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]
Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine not 'six or seven'
@skrikannamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:53 pm GMTIf you are at all amenable to suggestions, try this one: Get a grip. Putting any 'faith' in bellingcat/Aus-60mins rubbish is exactly the same as 'getting religion;' you are setting out to believe in scurrilous allegations based on zero [reputable, verifiable = substantiable] facts. IF the empire had such a reputable, verifiable = substantiable 'smoking gun' THEN we'd all have seen it and the silly, *criminal* MH17 kerfuffle would have been stopped by that smoking gun.
I don't know how credible and authentic the following footage is, but it seems very convincing to me, especially the last investigation from Australia:
This all happened a long time ago now, and 'back then' it was well-examined in the 'alternative media' = blogs, try this from here :
Note the bold bits in the quote: IF that commenter is correct THEN who provided the " shot " code? Note that the Q is applicable to any/all BUKs, either in or out of Ukie or 'rebel' control, and the next Q is: What Russian idiot would hand the empire the gun to be used to against him/herself? Cui bono requires a reasonable response.
PeterS
October 26, 2014 at 7:26 pm
The problem with any captured BUK is that it must be stolen even with the commander. Because the sharp/fire shot from BUK is unable, if there is not workoing part "Я Ñвой ÑамоÐ"ет" JSS, identification of friend -- enemy plane. Codes are changing every few days and only BUK, witch is going in combat operation get this codes (only commander knows the codes). The crew without codes (working identification part) can only scan and aim, but not shot.
Ukrainian air defense has disabled sharp/fire shooting since they shot down the Tupolev Tu 154M in 2001. The commander also on training shots is banned to issue codes. That was the question on the 156th Anti-Aircraft Rocket Regiment of the Ukrainian Air Force, if they accidentaly had not erred.
About BUK captured from any base, Ukrainians claimed that they have everything under control and on base remained only disfunction machines. I only saw pictures of separatists with charging vehicle, not with the vehicle TELAR.
Any claim about shooting needs also explanation about codes .
As I say, get a grip. We - those with properly functioning intellects - know which components on the world stage are capable of such horrendous, wicked atrocities as the MH17 shoot-down, here is some alphabet-soup: FUKUSIL+Ukr; feel free to select any/all letters which fit. rgds Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:
Ukraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting@Anon OMG. Who do you expect to read all that tendentious, highly contestable (if anyone bothered), partisan guff? "tendentious, highly contestable, partisan "JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 9:59 pm GMT
Well, anon [180], could you elaborate on what exactly was "highly contestable" and "partisan?"
1. Are you ready to refute that the US/NATO are guilty of the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East and the revival of neo-Nazism in Ukraine? -- Try!
2. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about this quote? -- "All [personal] vows we are likely to make, all [personal] oaths and pledges we are likely to take between this Yom Kippur and the next Yom Kippur, we publicly renounce. Let them all be relinquished and abandoned, null and void, neither firm nor established. Let our [personal] vows, pledges and oaths are considered neither vows nor pledges nor oaths." -the Kol Nidrei. The the Kol Nidrei "was not originally a prayer, but a declaration offered during Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year. In "modern" Judaism it is now being delivered as a prayer and has so grown in prominence during the last sixty years that it is now delivered at the commencement of Judaism's holiest yearly event of Passover."
3. Do you have some new information on the Skripal affair, which can explain the workings of the most deadly nerve agents within the time frame on which the UK government foolishly insists?
4. The Sec of State John Kerry claimed that the US had an irrefutable evidence (satellite images) of Russian guilt. https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/– ; What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about the US refusal to provide the evidence?
5. What is "highly contestable" and "partisan" about naming Elliot Higgins an ignoramus and Russophobe? http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
https://21stcenturywire.com/2018/02/06/a-to-guide-top-anti-russia-think-tanks-us-funds/ -- You are welcome to enlighten the reader.@Rurik there is zero doubt that Ukraine shot the plane down, because there's *obvious* evidence of machine gun bullet holes aimed directly at the cockpit, not to mention tones of other evidence (or lack of, like the missing BUK missile trail)JerseyJeffersonian , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:01 pm GMThttps://mh17scenario5.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/buk-launch.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4
what's amazing about all of this is the ability of the Fiend to cover all the evidence up, and include the main suspect: Ukraine - in the "investigation" with veto authority over any conclusions.
When you control a country's central bank, and therefor its access to credit, you control the government (and media and institutions) in absolute terms.
The quislings in Kyiv are corrupt and treasonous agents of the Zio-Fiend and nothing more.
Ironic that they're a bunch of neo-Nazis taking orders from Jewish banksters.
I'll bet that those Jewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns to advance their plans. A special frisson.@Beefcake the Mighty He's the intellectual equivalent of a colostomy bag. Heh.Rurik , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:22 pm GMTBut actually, I think the contents of the colostomy bag is in the running.
Wizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:29 pm GMTJewish banksters get a real kick out of using a bunch of neo-Nazis as pawns
no doubt
somewhere else here there was a discussion about how the Zionists are upset with the Germans for being too passive, (after generations of being demonized as congenitally militant).. but now they want the Germans to get riled to go kill Arabs for them.
Neo-Nazis killing Russians in Ukraine must certainly give them a 'special frisson' like no other.
now how to get American goyim to kill Arabs and Persians to kill American goyim and Germans to kill Arabs and Poles to kill Russians and English to kill Persians and Sunnis to kill Shias and Americans to kill Sunnis and Shias and
no wonder they were dancing and high-fiving each other on 9/11
@FBWizard of Oz , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:35 pm GMTYou have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off...
'...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...
The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...
There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...
[hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]...
Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...
So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of words when there is no useful point to be advanced.@AnonFromTN The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again. You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.annamaria , says: July 10, 2018 at 10:58 pm GMT@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:58 am GMTUkraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166 "I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc"
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
Sure. Mr. Higgins is also pretty sure that BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc. All because of his incomparable expertise.
Here is an opinion of the highly competent and highly principled Robert Perry: https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an " amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud ." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine.
More for FKA Max: "Higgins had stumbled into a potentially profitable (in terms of media exposure and possibly pledged funding) publishing venture. His output has been nothing if not consistent, viz: Consistent with what one would expect from promoters of the Anglo-US-NATO Official Narratives of geo-politics and the War on Terror, but done in a slipshod and blatantly partisan fashion that those who quote him (the Commercially-controlled media) are wary of claiming their own "
Enjoy the company: http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/06/medias-beloved-expert-higgins-wrong-again-and-again-and-again.html
"Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat, a celebrated internet blog that specializes in using open-source information to blame Russia for every crime against humanity -- real or imagined -- committed so far this century." https://www.sott.net/article/388086-NATO-stooge-and-vulgar-twat-Eliot-Higgins-has-go-to-message-for-critics-Suck-my-ballsWhy was mh17 shot down ?NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 2:35 am GMTTo demonise Russia.
Why was mh370 'disappeared' ?
Following the 'disappearance' of mh370, there were spades of kidnappings of Chinese tourists by the Abu Sayaff gang. [1]
PM Najib wondered out aloud .
' Somebody is out to drive a wedge between Malaysia/China'That was my first thought when hearing a Malaysian airliner had 'disappeared' with 200+ Chinese nationals onboard .
Before mh370
After .
Malaysians go online to fight Chinese criticism over MH370
https://www.todayonline.com/world/malaysians-go-online-fight-chinese-criticism-over-mh370
Missing MH370: China, Malaysia Mistrust Becomes War of Words
Malaysia Airlines MH370: China's unusual anger and finger-pointing
minister-blames-chinese-media-for-mh370-families-anger
In MH370, upset Malaysian officials see China ploy to divert anger
https://www.malaymail.com/s/646263/in-mh370-upset-malaysian-officials-see-china-ploy-to-divert-anger
MH 370: The deterioration of Malaysia/China relations
http://mole.my/mh-370-the-deterioration-of-malaysiachina-relations/
Tip of an iceberg.
cui bono ???
[1]
Long known to be CIA patsieshttp://socialistworker.org/2002-1/388/388_04_Philipinnes.shtml
@Wizard of Oz I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don't expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can't even specify and lay open for critical appraisal. No doubt you were called in on a military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.NoseytheDuke , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:03 am GMT@Beefcake the Mighty Pot, meet kettle. Asshole. That's not really fair. FB quite clearly is very knowledgable on matters of aviation and aerospace and has written lengthy informative comments that have been praised by many readers whilst the Wiz is seen by most readers here as being on the same low level as Quartermaster, Michael Kenny and such like, having zero credibility and an obvious purpose here to confuse and obfuscate.AnonFromTN , says: July 11, 2018 at 3:08 am GMT@Wizard of Oz You don't know the "intelligent people's" meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur. Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:07 pm GMTThis site has a marvelous history publish even the insane comments, but credibly enough also many well founded and reasonable ones. The worst comments imo are those from revisionists, flat earthers and neo nazis.Den Lille Abe , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:17 pm GMT
On this article, I think it matters most to just ask: Qui bono; who benefited?
Major players on the world arena do stupid things, but there is always an agenda. And thing do not happen by chance, nothing ever did, history has proven that. Minor players have to be satisfied with the agenda presented to them by their overlords.
In this "peculiar incident" a airliner what downed in some way. Both Major players have been "peculiar" reluctant to pursue the case (In copmparison to their usual MO), Russian maybe a bit more openly rejecting the responsibility.
The minor vassal states hollering their masters script as usual. But who benefited ? Well the Ukrainians did initially benefit, but squandered everything away, a corrupt kleptocrat oligarchy as it is, so their final gains are worth nil, as neither IMF, NATO, EU and the US sees them as a "partner anymore, just as a basketcase of open thievery.
What is interesting are the Russian/US claims of satelite imagery, radio tapes, ect,ect that they have not published, any of them .. Hmmmmmmn They agreed to this , but why ?
Because one Dirty hand holds another, they are probably blackmailing each other, with stuff too sensitive to the public.
I have not got the fantasy, to think that the Russians did it or that they gave that kind of weaponry to a bunch of not adequately trained rebels. My fingers are pointed at Ukraine, I figure the reason the Russians dont pursue this line of thinking is that they do not wish, a total ciwil war on their borders (violent break up of Ukraine), nobody else wants it, and that is why we are going nowhere.And please, please! Anything Eliot Higgins has endorsed is false! Anything NATO funds is hardly non partisan or impartial, same goes Syrian watch thing in London cellar, who knows all!!annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:24 pm GMT
These guys have discredited citizen journalism incredibly, they are indeed tools of the Evil Empire.@FKA Maxannamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:38 pm GMTThis seems to be highly important and relevant information to be aware of to be able to solve the MH-17 case ;-)
Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat
- https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_TimesSigns of the Times (Sott.net) is an alternative news website, originally founded on March 26, 2002 by Laura Knight-Jadczyk.
annamaria ,
Do you also believe this article from sott.net ?
Aliens Don't Like to Eat People That Smoke!
Signs of the Times
- http://www.sott.net/signs/anti-anti-smoking.htm Archived link : http://archive.is/c9JIX
But still, we think that there is MORE to the relationship between anti-smoking campaigns and alleged "aliens" - something sinister. The reader may wish to read our page on Diet and Health Related Questions as well as the Wave series by Laura Knight-Jadczyk from which the following has been extracted
[...]
Now, ... did you notice that it says that "animals use similar substances [acetylcholine antagonists or ANTI-nicotine] to paralyze their prey? We have to wonder about the oft reported conditions of paralysis associated with "alien interactions" and the almost rabid attack on smoking in our society.
Q&A with Laura Knight-Jadczyk -- Skepticism in Researchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiBiUjiyddY
Good information here: https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/
MH17 -- Russian GRU Commander 'Orion' Identified as Oleg Ivannikovhttps://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/25/mh17-russian-gru-commander-orion-identified-oleg-ivannikov/
Thanks again, annamaria , for introducing me to all this new information and all these new sources and resources: http://www.unz.com/article/revisiting-litvinenko-what-really-happened/#comment-2401541
I highly appreciate it, even if we don't agree on the narrative and conclusions, etc.
Never heard about FKA Max, but have a great respect for the late Robert Parry: https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/30/the-berkeley-tribute-to-robert-parry/
"Bellingcat is an amateur run, supposedly independent, source of image analyses on controversial images. Its operator, Eliot Higgins has been praised by The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Guardian. However, Robert Parry termed Bellingcat's analysis of satellite photos related to the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an "amateurish [and] anti-Russian fraud." Another commentator claimed that Higgins "has constantly been a source of dis/misinformation on Syria and Ukraine." " https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
I have a great respect for Unz Review and Consortiumnews but a zero respect for the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council that employs Higgins as "expert" -- along with another "expert," the fraudster Dm. Alperovitch of CrowdStrike fame: https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/crowdstrikes-alperovitch-is-a-vicious-fraud/FKA Max, stay with your beloved Belligcat and Atlantic Council -- the Unz Review forum is obviously too traumatic for you.
@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 12:54 pm GMT
:-) "Secret US 2006 Government Document Reveals Plan to Destabilize Syria by Using Extremists, Muslim Brotherhood, Elections:"
These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
"American officials say the U.S. government has had extensive contacts with a range of anti-Assad groups in Washington, Europe and inside Syria. To give momentum to that opposition, the U.S. is giving serious consideration to the election-monitoring scheme proposed in the document, according to several officials. The proposal has not yet been approved, in part because of questions over whether the Syrian elections will be delayed or even cancelled. But one U.S. official familiar with the proposal said: "You are forced to wonder whether we are now trying to destabilize the Syrian government."
Some critics in Congress and the Administration say that such a plan, meant to secretly influence a foreign government, should be legally deemed a "covert action," which by law would then require that the White House inform the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Some in Congress would undoubtedly raise objections to this secret use of publicly appropriated funds to promote democracy."
-- Who needs democracy in the US when the "only democracy in the ME" has a flaming desire to break the functioning Middle Eastern states?
"Neoconservative [ziocon] Think Tank Influence on US Policies:" http://historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives@Mr. Hack This is ' probably' a bunch of junky Russian laced fake news:skrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:02 pm GMT
:-) If you insist, Mr. Hack, there are some Western reports on the collusion of ziocons with banderites (neonazis):
These posts probably contain the correct scenario of what really happened.
"The Kagans Are Back; Wars to Follow" https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/15/the-kagans-are-back-wars-to-follow/
Ziocons' tireless support for the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/14/fueling-more-bloodshed-in-ukraine/
"Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?" https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine
You are welcome to debunk these reports.@FKA Max Fake news from the BND https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Intelligence_Service_(Germany) , so your entire theory falls apart, in my opinion. I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.:annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:26 pm GMTUkraine asks German agency for clarification on flight MH17 findings
- http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/22/ukraine-asks-german-agency-for-clarification-on-flight-mh17-findings/Similarly, Ukraine's Ministry of Defense in an official statement posted on its website, October 20, has categorically denied claims that terrorists had seized the BUK-M1 (NATO code: SA-11 Gadfly) anti-aircraft missile system from a Ukrainian military unit.
"Certain media citing the German magazine Der Spiegel have been disseminating information that the Malaysian passenger plane, flight MH17 , flying over the Donetsk Oblast had been downed by a BUK anti-aircraft missile system seized by pro-Russian separatists from one of the Ukrainian military units. The Command of the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine officially states that information on the seizure by terrorists of the BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missile system from a military unit of the Air Force of Ukraine is not true ," the Ministry's statement said.
[...]
"At the time when the terrorist entered the territory of the military administration, there remained only old and unusable vehicles," the Defense Ministry stated.
[...]
Ukraine's position finds some backing in a report posted on the website of the Center for Eurasian Strategic Intelligence (CESI), October 22. According to the CESI report, the information presented by German Intelligence at the closed hearing differed markedly from information that was released publicly. Most notably, all information that the BUK-M1 (SA-11) system had crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border had been removed from the original document.I just wrote a comment on the reliability of Der Spiegel reporting, that might be of interest to you:
- http://www.unz.com/tsaker/book-review-losing-military-supremacy-the-myopia-of-american-strategic-planning-by-andrei-martyanov/#comment-2408166
All this leads me to the conclusion and reinforces my previous perception that the Der Spiegel article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html might not be entirely reliable due to its heavy reliance on anti-American, pro-Assad/Iran/Russia BB sources, which likely dis-/misinformed the Der Spiegel reporters about the true extent of Russian involvement and causalities in the incident
[...]
Der Spiegel is also a center-left publication https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiegel-online/ which are in general less critical of Russia and most of the time even sympathetic towards it (not a bad thing, at all), and it also has had business connections to pro-Russian media in the past, and therefore might not be considered completely unbiased and objective when it comes to Russia reporting
I am pretty sure the BUK system/launcher came from Russia including commander, codes etc.
Dream on.
Major Israeli Daily: Our Government Is "Arming Neo-Nazis In Ukraine": https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-10/major-israeli-daily-our-government-arming-neo-nazis-ukraineskrik , says: July 11, 2018 at 1:31 pm GMT
Where are the main 52 American Jewish organization to condemn the revival of neo-nazism in Ukraine?@Wizard of Oz Another shonk. For your trivial point.....The SMH is, with The Age, a shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US propaganda.denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:34 pm GMTFor your substantial deficiency.... Are you arguing that this photograph proves something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.
More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message. Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.
The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda
Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?
Let smh speak for itself :
Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values
Me: Haw #1
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014
Me: Lie #1
and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17
Me: Lie #2
the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week
Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation
The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant
Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation
Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict
Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..
Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.
mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor
@jilles dykstra I also have wondered if hurting Malaysia was a secundary goal.denk , says: July 11, 2018 at 5:59 pm GMT
Soros indeed is hated in Malaysia, they think that he permanently increased the cost of living by speculating against the Malaysian currency Cui bono ?First the geopolitical angle, namely fukus decades long effort to stir up shit in SCS, setting Asean/jp against China
'Located on the geostrategic Malacca Strait, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim oil-producing nation with a "Look East" policy allying itself with Japan and China. Last year the Malaysian and Chinese governments established an economic alliance, which includes Asian access to world oil reserves. In the eyes of Washington and its allies, these are sufficient grounds to treat Kuala Lumpur as an adversary .
Even though the Malaysian police force has cooperated closely with the US Embassy in the war on terror, which led to arrests of top-ranking Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, that is not good enough. The late Moammar Gaddhafi of Libya and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad also aided Washington in post-911 anti-terrorism, and look where it got them. It is not enough to be a friend of America. For a leader to survive, he must be a groveling yes-man, a political slave - and never mind America's long-forgotten principles of sovereignty or self-determination.' [1]
The main aim was to wreck KL/Beijing honeymoon, drove Malaysia into the anti Chinese posse.
KL/Beijing relation did go down a few notches post mh370Meanwhile, fukus always try biggest bang for the buck and go for multi prong attacks.
The other objective could be to liquidate Chinese chip engineers.
'Among the 200-plus passengers bound for Beijing, the target group for the hijack is narrowing down to 20 tech employees working for Freescale Semiconductors, based in Austin, Texas. Among these programmers and systems designers are 12 Malaysians [ethnic Chinese ?] and 8 citizens of mainland China.' [2]
Then , Soros could be part of the caper, exacting his pound of fresh from Malayia. [3]
[1]
https://rense.com/general96/mh370.html
[2]
https://rense.com/general96/tinymicro.html
[3]
@denk How it all began....annamaria , says: July 11, 2018 at 11:10 pm GMT2005, as per the Guardian...
'Britain's chief diplomat in Malaysia stormed out of a human rights' conference today after the UK and US were condemned as "state terrorists" by the country's retired prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad,...'2008
Mahathir accused Soros of attacking the Malaysian currencies.2011
Tribunal in KL indicted fukus for committing genocides in Iraq.2013
fukus backed opposition party failed to unseat PM Najib.2013
Xi JIng Ping received red carpet welcome in KL,
meeting with both Najib and Mahathir.
The trio toasted to a 'new level of Malaysia./sino friendship.'
[This alone is punishable by death in the eyes of the cabal in Washington]2014
Malaysian sky started raining airliners. ...mh370 'disappeared',
mh17 'shot down',
AirAsia QZ8501 crashed,
mh148 engine on fire, near miss.
Helicopter with PM Najib's PA onboard exploded in mid air....[tip of an iceberg]
From these facts alone,
Ian Fleming's fundamental law of probability practically guarantees these are enemy actions.
As for who has the motive to screw
Malaysia/China/Russia all at once....
one stone killing three birds ?Elementary, Watson ! Hmm
For Washington, surely this must be another one for Malaysia's chart sheet, another score to settle !
2004,
The SMH sneeringly opined' Malaysia puts US in its place over offer to police busy sea lane
Malaysia has rejected a plan by the United States to deploy marines and special forces troops to counter potential terrorist attacks against international shipping in the Straits of Malacca, one of the world's busiest sea lanes.
The commander of US forces in the Asia-Pacific region, Admiral Thomas Fargo, last week revealed a plan to use troops aboard high speed vessels to police the straits, which run between peninsular Malaysia and the Indonesian island of Sumatra.
But in a rebuff, Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister, Najib Tun Razak, said at the weekend that control of the straits was the sovereign prerogative of Malaysia and Indonesia, and US military involvement was not welcome.
https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/05/1081017106683.html?from=storyrhs
Grrrr..
uncle must be straining at his leash over that one.BUt then you cant keep a good man down for long, uncle sham is now coming into the Malacca Straits in a big way, FON and all that jazz.
where's Najib who gave uncle the finger ?p.s.
SMH, The Age, The Australian, The conversation all declared me persona non grata.@Quartermaster Cui Bono? Russia. It was a Buk and it was a newer model that Ukraine does not have. There is footage of a group of "rebels" (actually Russian invaders) walking through the debris field saying, with surprise and regret, "we shot down an airliner."annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 2:58 am GMTIf you want to believe nonsense, feel free, but publishing trash like the above is unconscionable.
The legacy of McCain: http://www.voltairenet.org/article201925.html -- A traitor, warmonger, and coward.
"John McCain is an elected US Senator, and is also president of one of the branches of the National Endowment for Democracy, one of the secret services of the " Five Eyes " (USA-UK-Australia-Canada-New Zealand). On 22 February [2011], he was in Lebanon, where he tasked the transport of weapons in Syria to the Haririst deputy Okab Sakr. He also journeyed to Ersal in order to establish a future rear base for the jihadists.
On Friday 18 March [2011], an Islamist demonstration was staged at the exit of the Al-Omari mosque. The crowd chanted " Allah, Syria, liberty " -- The term should be understood in the sense given by the Muslim Brotherhood, that of "the freedom to apply charia law". During this demonstration, shots were fired both against the police and also against the demonstrators, without anyone knowing where they were coming from. It is probable, as we have seen in Venezuela, Libya, and other countries [see Kievan pitch 2014], that the shooters were from a third force tasked with creating an atmosphere of civil war and preparing a foreign invasion .
Senator McCain admitted that he was in permanent contact with the heads of the jihadists (including the commanders of Daesh) Confronted with a recording of one of his telephone conversations, Okab Sakr admitted that he had supervised the transfers of weapons to Syria."
-- The "war on terra" has been very profitable for MIC; the war has produced conflicts in the Middle East, where the real terrorists became the best buddies of the CIA/McCain and Israeli.
In Ukraine, Brennan (the CIA), Kagans (ziocons), and McCain have become the main promoters and supporters of neo-Nazi. (Hey nazi-hunters, where are you?)
The energetic "Quartermaster" could continue, ad nauseum, to repeating the amazing discoveries made by Eliot Higgins about BUK in Ukraine and WMD in Syria (Higgins is a joy of the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council), but these "discoveries" cannot obscure the facts of arms supply to both ISIS and neo-Nazis by the CIA, Israel, and by the obedient vassals from NATO.
In Ukraine, the banderites have made a pact with ziocons in a hope that by using the US influence, the banderites could establishing a banderite state. Dream on. Expect to be crushed by ziocons, and sooner than later.
Whereas the White Helmets' tales and Skripal affair' stupidities are hailed by MSM, the truth can be found on the alternative sites.http://fact.international/2018/07/israel-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/
@FKA Max Even RT reported that the BND report was never intended to be conclusive but mainly "evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability" and that the Der Spiegel and other media outlets' reporting about it was inaccurate and misleading:denk , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:16 am GMThttps://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/ Archived link : https://web.archive.org/web/20170514120701/https://www.rt.com/news/203995-germany-intelligence-report-mh17/
RD Insight: Reason's for Putin's high approval rating
The Russian embassy in Berlin received an official response to note #3693 from October 27 regarding Germany's Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND intelligence agency) President Gerhard Schindler's allegations that local militia in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight in July." The media interpretation of the report of the Federal Intelligence Service (BND) president delivered to the Bundestag Committee overseeing intelligence activities on October 8 is incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context, " the note says.
[...]
German diplomats insisted that the BND's analysis and evaluation was based " on information obtained from intelligence and from open sources, " which included data from the interim report of the Dutch investigation commission conducting the inquiry. The report delivered by Schindler " evaluated multiple valid scenarios with regard to their plausibility and probability, " the note said.The ministry stressed that according to the decision of the International Civil Aviation Association (ICAA), investigation of the MH17 flight crash was handed over to Dutch authorities, authorized to exclusively deliver all information on the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTKB4th1Rjg
Alexey Levinson, social research director at Levada Analytical Center talks about the reasons for Russian President Vladimir Putin's high approval rating.
"open sources" -- Eliot Higgins as the main provider? The scoundrel has zero scientific training, zero technical training, zero engineering training, and zero training in chemistry. Eliot Higgins was ridiculed by the experts in all of the above fields of knowledge. But the zionized Atlantic Council loves, loves, loves Higgins. Do you know why, "FKA Max?"
"The media interpretation" -- You mean, "interpretations" by MSM? Cannot stop polluting the Unz forum with the presstituting propaganda, "FKA Max?""Kerry Pressed for MH-17 Evidence" by By Robert Parry
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
"In a letter to Kerry dated Jan. 5, 2016, Thomas J. Schansman, Quinn's father, noted Kerry's remarks at a press conference on Aug. 12, 2014, when the Secretary of State said about the Buk anti-aircraft missile suspected of downing the plane: "We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory. We saw the hit. We saw this airplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
The analysts' uncertainty meshed somewhat with what I [Robert Parry] had been told by a source who had been briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts shortly after the shoot-down about what they had seen in high-resolution satellite photos , which they said showed what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile.
The source who spoke to me several times after receiving additional briefings about advances in the investigation said that as the U.S. analysts gained more insights into the MH-17 shoot-down from technical and other sources, they came to believe the attack was carried out by a r ogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch. [See, for instance, Consortiumnews.com's "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts" and "The Danger of an MH-17 Cold Case."]
Do you know this oligarch, "FKA Max?" The Ukrainian/Israeli thug that has been a "pillar of Ukrainian Jewish community?"
Have you heard about Awan affair, the greatest breach of the US cybersecurity? There was certain Israel-firster involved in the crime (she was also instrumental in rigging the Dems nomination for POTUS). No persecution.
Have you heard about the Wiesenthal Center of Nazi-hunters? Not a peep from the Center with regard to the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The revival has involved certain Kagans family, hence the absence of the "peeps."
So please, take your Higginsian revelations about Ukraine and Syria to some other place where they will be appreciated. You know, the zioconish NYT, WaPo, WSJ, Guardian, and likes.Not OT,Den Lille Abe , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:22 am GMTmh370 and mh17 are part of the package deal , a pay back to KL 'insolence' , it has practically bankrupted the MAL,.
Is it possible for a Boeing 777 flying thru SCS, one of the most electronically monitored hot spots in the world, then 'disappeared' without trace ?
Dr Mahathir didnt think so,
'CIA withholding information on flight MH370′Malaysia made a formal request to Oz for info about mh370.
Canberra .
'impossible, it concerns our national security'
[ sic ]Why Oz ?
cuz the CIA runs Pine Gap base operates some of the most powerful radars in the world.
How powerful ?
*It can pick up the type of airliners taking off from Changi airbase.
*It routinely monitored , intercept communications from the regions military commands .
*There was even a live broadcast of video conference bet the Malaysian high command in Aussie parliament, to impress on the capability of Pine Gap !
So the question remains,
What dark secrets are the Aussies hiding from the world ?@Anonymous "Nothing ever happens by chance". On the face of it that looks absurd so let me try and tease out your meaning.skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:27 am GMTMay I assume that you don't mean that everything in the human world happens because at least one human actually wanted it to and caused it to happen?
So let's try with whoever fired a BUK missile which brought down a civil airliner
(a) just accidentally firing when he or another was just using the nearest available plane to centre the aiming mechanism
(b) the intended target was one plane flying near another but, for technical reasons, the missile ended up destroying the wrong plane.
Etc.
Kindly explain your "nothing ever happens by chance" so your readers know what you mean by it. What I meant specifically is when you take events that we ponder in history, there alway seems to an unrlying story that explains the event. An instigation that is plausibly the trigger, causing the event to happen.
The murder in Sarajevo, it was not a lone Anarchist, it was a planned assassination, carried out by a nation state through proxy. But at the surface, it was just a nut job. But it was a thoroughly thought out terror plot, meant to increase tensions to the brink of war and it succeeded, albeit the outcome in the end, historically was dire.
Of course accidents happen and brash foolishness also plays a part, but often things are planned and often enough they backfire.@Anonymous Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles why not occasionally put some effort into contributing to the substance and at least answer other commenters points.annamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:36 am GMTInstead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles at least answer other commenters points
1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises -- like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.
3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, "
4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?
5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.
Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]
Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.
Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can -- in my own 'style.'
Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:
FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.
a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches
add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies
The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'
Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a ' *circumstantial* ' argument.
We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F -- k the EU!" If the cap fits
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crashannamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:56 am GMThttps://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png
The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.
Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK
MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf
Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:
- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929
DSA - May 25, 2018You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.
Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschusshttp://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html
Google Translate translation:
Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.
Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.
Los Angeles Times: "U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was mistake." http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.
Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."
-- Do you understand that the US has "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile?" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
-- Again, FKA Max, who is that Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch whom you are so strenuously protecting? " the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE
-- Cheerleading for ziocons, FKA Max, with all your Kol Nidrei enthusiasm?https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/
@FKA Max Examining the Evidence of Russia's Involvement in a Malaysia Airlines Crashannamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 3:56 pm GMThttps://www.stratfor.com/sites/default/files/styles/wv_small/public/buk-air-defense-mh17%20(1).png
The new imagery obtained by Stratfor does not prove that this particular Buk system fired a missile at the airliner. Nonetheless, it further substantiates the narrative being pieced together by the collective analysis of open-source information.
Source: https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash Archived link : http://archive.is/1PsnK
MH17 -- The Open Source Investigation, Three Years Later
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mh17-3rd-anniversary-report.pdf
Comment in the comments section of that Bellingcat.com post on the Bild article following below:
- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2017/07/17/mh17-open-source-investigation-three-years-later/comment-page-2/#comment-157929
DSA - May 25, 2018You read it wrong, the article actually says Russia closed its airspace up to the level that could be targeted by BUK, suggesting they knew in advance a BUK was going to be there and possibly shoot at stuff and they wanted to protect Russian airliners.
Drei Jahre nach MH17-Abschuss Neuer Verdacht gegen Putin
Russland sperrte Luftverkehrsstraßen Stunden vor dem Abschusshttp://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/flug-mh-17/mh17-wusste-putin-etwas-52576256.bild.html
Google Translate translation:
Am Ende des NOTAM fand sich jedoch eine weitere Angabe, nämlich die Anordnung der Schließung des Luftraums zwischen dem Boden bis Flughöhe „FL530". Dies entspricht etwa 16 100 Meter.Die Regelung galt ab dem 17. Juli 2014 um Mitternacht (Moskauer-Zeit), also ab 17 Stunden vor dem Angriff auf MH17 in etwa 10 000 Meter Höhe.
Auffällig: Die Schließung des Luftraums mit Hinweis auf „die Kampfhandlungen auf dem Territorium der Ukraine nahe der Staatsgrenze zu Russland" ging bis 2100 Meter über die Dienstgipfelhöhe der Buk-Rakete (Typ 9M38), die MH17 abschoss.
You also tried to pollute this site with your opinions on the Skripal Affair. Enjoy: https://robinwestenra.blogspot.com/2018/03/craig-murray-on-skripal-affair.html
However, at the end of the NOTAM there was another indication, namely the order of closure of the airspace between the ground to flight level "FL530". This corresponds to about 16 100 meters.The ruling was from 17 July 2014 at midnight (Moscow time) , ie from 17 hours before the attack on MH17 at about 10 000 meters altitude.
Conspicuous : The closure of the airspace with reference to "the fighting on the territory of Ukraine near the state border with Russia" went to 2100 meters above the service peak height of the Buk rocket (type 9M38), the MH17 shot down.
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidenceannamaria , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:21 pm GMTversus
Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay
e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!
annamaria ,
what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.
Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?
Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?
Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14
In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png
Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?
Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16
The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.Education as the Elixir of Growth II
https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg
Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/
Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?
Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum with the Atlantic Council stuff.
Higgins "investigative" journalism, including his hapless manipulation of photographs from Ukraine, has been debunked by the real experts. Google the debunking yourself.Los Angeles Times: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
"U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the designation for a Russian-made anti-aircraft Buk missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems." The US intelligence community has the "high-resolution satellite photos" showing "what looked like Ukrainian military personnel manning the battery believed to have fired the missile" https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/21/kerry-pressed-for-mh-17-evidence/
" the U.S. analysts came to believe the attack was carried out by a rogue element of the Ukrainian military with ties to a hard-line Ukrainian oligarch." https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ihor+kolomoyskyi&view=detail&mid=7814F871DC8C94A863407814F871DC8C94A86340&FORM=VIRE-- You have been shilling for ziocons, FKA Max. Whether you are upset with the banderites lack of success in the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) or you are just another unhappy aliya in Israel, your "research" shows desperation. Anyway, you are not taken seriously.
https://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/05/corporate-medias-about-face-on-ukraines-neo-nazis/
@FKA Max Bellingcat.com et al. = hard photographic, video, etc. evidencedenk , says: July 12, 2018 at 5:37 pm GMTversus
Robert Parry et al. = mostly hearsay
e.g. "According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility." - https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
Oh, and by the way the smoking gun in this entire investigation, so we don't forget... " Higgins gave up his lucrative career as a payments officer at a women's underwear company to create Bellingcat " http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2411311 ... Now think about that!
annamaria ,
what you term me "polluting" the site I consider not engaging in echo chamber discussions.
Just out of curiosity... You are a true believer in the information you share, correct?
Have you ever been wrong about something in your life, annamaria ?
Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect before?
More Orthodox believe their culture to be superior than Catholic or especially Protestant ones. Poland here is perhaps especially surprising. - https://www.unz.com/akarlin/huge-pew-survey-of-eastern-europe/#p_1_14
In the field of psychology, the Dunning -- Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability; without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1] On the other hand, people of high ability incorrectly assume that tasks that are easy for them are also easy for other people.
https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/poll-east-europe-superior-culture.png
Are you an Orthodox Christian, annamaria ?
Interestingly, historically Protestant countries are the most highly educated and economically vibrant, and have been for centuries, but most of their population doesn't believe their culture(/or opinion) is superior (Latvia and Estonia in the above example). A very good real-life example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, in my opinion.:
- http://www.unz.com/akarlin/literacy-predicts-russian-iq/#p_1_16
The three very major upwards outliers -- more relatively literate than intelligent -- are the Finno-Ugric Baltic states: Finland, Estonia, and Latvia. This can't have been a non-Orthodox/Muslim thing: Both Poland (On-The-Vistula Governorate) and Lithuania (Kovno and Vilna) lie neatly on the correlation curve. Nor was it something Finno-Ugric; Karelia (then Olonets) is not an exception either. It must have been something specific just to them and the most obvious explanation is Protestantism. There is a lot of literature on the independent literacy-raising effects of Protestantism and I see no reasons why Estonia, Latvia, and Finland should have been exceptions to that.Education as the Elixir of Growth II
https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/korotayev_lit1.jpg
Source: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/education-as-the-elixir-of-growth-ii/
Really makes you think, doesn't it, annamaria ?
Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting."In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.@Biff First place I thought of when I first heard the news was Diego Garcia. It seems others had the same hunch. Is there evidence? Keep digging.Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:33 pm GMThttp://www.volusia.com/new-chilling-mh370-diego-garcia-links/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/mh370-missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-latest-new-evidence-development-conspiracy-theories-what-a7703531.html
https://www.disclose.tv/hijacked-flight-370-passenger-sent-photo-from-hidden-iphone-tracing-back-to-secret-us-military-base-310506
Evidence ?
Other than the fisherman in Maldives who saw a low flying airliner .
It there's any evidence at all it'd prolly reside in the Pine Gap log somewhere.
But what can we do if Oz says we cant have it ?In civvy case, a court can order a building owner to hand out its cctv tapes to assist a murder investigation,.
On the international level, its entirely different matter cuz the 5lies are above any international law, never mind their constant bleating about a ' rule based international order'.
Its the law of jungle .backed by NATO.
Who's gonna issue a search warrant to NATO ?Then again, in a civvy murder case, a beneficiary of the deceased would never be appointed as investigator.
BUt this is exactly what happened in the mh370 case where the Malaysian police was ' assisted' by CIA/FBI !
Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop !Judge, prosecutor and executioner all in one.
No wonder the Malaysian police chief was driven to moan aloud ,
" I doubt this case will ever be solved' !P.S.
I rarely if ever sit thru a video , preferring to read its transcript.
But I recommend this video if you'r interested in the mh370 case, its worth your time.Interview with Mathias Chang, top aide to Dr Mahathir,
" added elements such as humanitarian intervention "skrik , says: July 12, 2018 at 7:41 pm GMTThere is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup.@annamaria Your attempts at putting the courageous and principled Robert Parry on the same plane with the ziocon shill Higgins (an ignoramus and opportunist) is disgusting.Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:42 pm GMT"In October 2015, Parry was awarded the I.F. Stone Medal for Journalistic Independence by Harvard's Nieman Foundation for Journalism, "for his career distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media. Parry broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare). In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_(journalist)
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max:
Robert Parry's carrier was "distinguished by meticulously researched investigations, intrepid questioning, and reporting that has challenged mainstream media."-- Compare Robert Parry to your main and most valuable source Elliot Higgins:
"Higgins has no background or training in weapons, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic. Higgins partnered with the Atlantic Council to co-author the report Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins" the Atlantic Council has a troubling history of taking money from foreign special interest groups and government agencies in return for pushing propaganda to support various initiatives around the globe. Atlantic Council had received funding from the Ploughshares Fund, which was a major player in efforts to sell the Iranian nuclear deal to the American public. The Ploughshares Fund is financed by George Soros' Open Society Foundation.
The Atlantic Council consistently promotes hostile, anti-Russian rhetoric. The organization has also promoted unsourced and unfounded claims that Russia was responsible for "hacking" the 2016 U.S. presidential elections despite the fact that this conspiracy theory has been resoundingly debunked by various authorities in the intelligence community and by multiple media sources. The Atlantic Council, unfazed by the evidence that their claims of hacking were false, have continued to promote these falsehoods in the aftermath of the election in what appeared to be a possible effort to undermine American democratic institutions." https://disobedientmedia.com/2017/02/george-soros-funded-think-tank-attacks-disobedient-media-over-eu-coverage/
-- To repeat for you, FKA Max: the Atlantic Council, and its loyal employee Higgins, are well-known promoters of falsehoods.Hey, FKA Max, you have been polluting this forum
Me: Yes. 'It' is known as a troll [ *it* is un-sexed; especially when trolls align with 'the great Satan' and therefore against all decency, they de-sex themselves, just as they de-humanise themselves.]
My recommendation: I ** 3 = Identify, inform, ignore. rgds
Great article!Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:47 pm GMT
Explains a lot.@anonSkeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:48 pm GMTThis article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?
As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day -- but all that remains inconclusive.
1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.
2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.
3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.
The facts matter, but not to this writer. The author clearly set forth the parameters of his article at the beginning of the article.
The article is not a "whodunnit." The article is an analysis of cui, in the end, bono.
How was the incident used to further an agenda.
That is what the author said he would do and that is what he did.
So your complaint is beside the point.@Mr. HackSkeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 8:59 pm GMTThis analysis is so biased and inaccurate that it has no basis to hang together with a coherent conclusion. This quote is a good example of the author's inarticulate manner in presenting his own completely fantasized (but original) gibberish. Ukraine trying to draw Moscow into the civil war directly? Why not just further this line of nonsense and declare that Ukraine invited the 'little green men' into the Crimea to have it annexed by Russia too? :-) Troll alert!
. Those in power in Kiev had several times already attempted to draw Moscow into the civil war, directly and through a NATO intervention.
No gibberish in this article.@Mr. HackBeefcake the Mighty , says: July 12, 2018 at 9:02 pm GMTNobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate 'heroes' on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology. "Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology."
Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.
I don't think the author says anything about false flags.
He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
Read the article before commenting!@Skeptikal " added elements such as humanitarian intervention "FB , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:20 pm GMTThere is an excellent discussion in the June 21, 2018, London Review of Books, "The Mask It Wears," by Pankaj Mishra, on the elevation and exploitation of the human rights argument to justify neoliberal incursions into sovereign nations worldwide.
It is dense, but clearly argued once the author gets past his longist background setup. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n12/pankaj-mishra/the-mask-it-wearsNeoliberalism is indeed a scourge.
@annamaria You have been identified as a polluter of Atlantic Council (zioconish) persuasion.Skeptikal , says: July 12, 2018 at 11:21 pm GMT
FKA Max, a representative of Elliot Higgins on Unz forum. Speaking of little poofter Eliot HigginsHere is a bit of info most people probably don't know the website bellingcat use for photo 'analysis' Fotoforensics.com well the founder of that website Dr Neal Krawetz, has slammed the group for misusing the software
He's not the only image analysis professional who debunks the bellingcat BS Jens Kriese is a professional image analyst in Hamburg, Germany and the founder of the IRISPIX photo archive in an interview with respected German media outlet Der Spiegel, he debunked the supposed bellingcat 'debunking' of Russian sat imagery
' SPIEGEL ONLINE: What's your personal conclusion about the satellite images?
Kriese: The first thing to die in war is the truth. Each side likes to throw random smoke bombs. There is no way of knowing if the images show what Moscow is claiming.
What one can say, however, is that this "analysis" has achieved nothing besides raising awareness of Bellingcat. '
Notice the quotation marks Kriese places around the word 'analysis' so an actual professional dismantles underwear salesman Higgins big surprise there same as Prof Postol dismantles his BS about chem weapons in Syria
Incidentally Spiegel subsequently ran an apology for taking the Higgins poofter BS at face value
@jilles dykstra No confusion whatsoever.Greg S. , says: July 13, 2018 at 3:32 am GMT
MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside. "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."Apparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . .
I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.denk , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:42 am GMTAll "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal.
@Skeptikal Unfortunately I cannot make out what Chang is saying about "global tsunami." 58:00. He swallows his words at that point and the most important info is garbled. He repeats what he said, but once again it is not intelligible. The interviewer does not help. What is Chang saying about "214"? What kind of "global tsunami" will cause things to "spill out"? In fact, quite a lot of what follows is unclear. Thanks for the JFK film.FB , says: July 13, 2018 at 4:57 am GMTI recommended Chang principally cuz he's the first one who pointed out there's a massive air sea war game going on and mh370 was flying right into that 'eye of storm'.
Was it possible that the AWACS, spy planes, spy ships, etc didnt detect the airliner ?
In fact there was also an air exercise going on when mh17 was shot down . ! [2]
really makes one wonder if these 'war games' accompanying 911, mh17, mh370 and terror drills on the days of Sandy Hook, London 7/7, Boston marathon were there to cover up a crime, a drill that turned live ? [3]
Ian Fleming's law of probability applies.
Here's a Chang video with better sound track but I'd have to re- watch it to see whether I can answer any of your questions. [watched it some years back]
[2]
http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2014%E2%80%B3/
[3]
http://whale.to/c/terror_drills.html
p.s.
having problem accessing UNZ lately.@FKA Max So, you are basically claiming that the Tungstène software is lying.Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:31 am GMTI have to give it to you, you are uniquely and expertly brazen.
Photo Expert: 'A Manipulated Image Is Not Necessarily a Lie'
- http://time.com/3897858/photo-expert-a-manipulated-image-is-not-necessarily-a-lie/
In the age of digital photography, it's become increasingly easy to modify, process or manipulate the content of an image, and increasingly harder to sort truth from fiction.In 2009, under the impulsion of the French Ministry of Defense, the computer science technologies company eXo maKina developed Tungstene, a program that can reveal changes made to a digital file. Just a few weeks after World Press Photo, the world's leading photojournalism competition, was forced to disqualify 20% of final entries because of excessive manipulation, Roger Cozien, the man behind Tungstene, discusses the relevance of truth in photography in an interview first published in French in OAI13 and republished here for the first time in English.
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F05%2Ftungstene-north-korea-2.jpg
In this photograph of North Korean troops engaging in a tr[ai]ning exercise, eXo maKina was able to detect that parts of the image had been duplicated and enhanced.You are currently between the "Name-calling" and "Ad Hominem" level of "Graham's hierarchy of disagreement". Without the insults, bad manners and bad temper you are currently displaying, you could actually make it to the "Contradiction" or even "Counterargument" level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham%27s_hierarchy_of_disagreement
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg/400px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg.png Holy mother of jesus another friggin spam storm from retardo boy
Do you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation ?
What part of this did you not understand ?
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO
Again that flies over your retarded head what does it take to make a retard understand basic English ?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT does not an ad hominem make moron
@NoseytheDuke Not only lower but also further North, by a few hundred kilometres. A Spanish ATC working at Kiev, named Carlos, went public immediately saying Ukraine did it.Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:44 am GMTEye witness were filmed immediately afterwards stating that there was a small warplane underneath MH17 just prior to it turning and then going down. I couldn't understand what they were saying (there were subtitles) but their non-verbal cues suggested that they were being entirely truthful.
Don't tantalize us. Do give a link to the report of the Spanish (!) air traffic controller's statement. sounds odd. Pay in Ukraine would be much lower than in Spain though I suppose he could have married a rich Ukrainia
n's daughter or ex .Also, while waiting, I'll guess that someone sacked for being drunk on the job decided to sell a story to TV.
Much more important how do you deal with the DSB's 250+ page report which, from memory, rejects all theories involving other aircraft in the near vicinty of MH17 based on both Ukrainan and Russian radar which showed MH17 but no other planes?
@Skeptikal "Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside."Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 7:55 am GMTApparently Boeing has the relevant patents on this . . . Have you done a patent search? It's usually not difficult if you want to supplement hearsay.
@Gerard Quote : "Most importantly they had the motive". Agreed this is the most important question of all. After the first report I wrote to the Dutch DIB in The Hague asking as to whether the board had considered the motive and also what motive the East Ukranian separatists could have prompted them to hand over in good faith the flight recorders. Of course I did not receive a reply and did not expect a reply. Hitherto I have never received a honest and coherent answer to those two questions. Personally I have no answer to the question what motive Russia could have to shoot down a passenger liner in broad daylight.Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:14 am GMT
I am still awaiting serious answers to those two questions.
(Sorry I couldn't read all comments) I think you are seriously missing the point that the default hypothesis is the best answer, namely that no one had a motive to shoot down MH17. If, instead of writing to what you call the "Dutch DIB" you had read the Dutch Safety Board's report you would have spared being treated as an irritating gadfly. The DSB's job was technical explanation not analysis of political or military motives. Moreover it might have occurred to you that a very good reason for handing over the black boxes was to avoid the inferences which would naturally be drawn by refusal to hand them over. Indeed it makes sense that Russia instructed its protegés to avoid doing something silly like hiding the black boxes.@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...Anon , [168] • Disclaimer says: July 13, 2018 at 8:20 am GMTDo you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?
What part of this did you not understand...?
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...
https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Have you read the DSB report? Given the amount of time you are putting into whatever cause it is you support its 250 or so pages shouldn't deter you. Interesting in particular how many online comments on MH17 it shows to irresponsible or trollish blathering. The holes are obviously more like shrapnel than bullet holes. There were hundreds of metal fragments in the pilots' bodies. There were no other aircraft nearby etc etc. So .
If you have read what must now be the starting point for discussion what do you say is wrong with the report, and on what evidence and reasoning?
Can you at least be one of those who is ear headed enough to see that the DSB report goes nowhere near saying that anyone, let alone Russians, deliberately shot down MH17?
@Greg S. I personally like the following conspiracy theory: Putin's airplane was known to be transiting back to Russia from Europe that day. Russian plane colors: white with red, white, and blue striping. "Someone" whispers this information into the ear of a Ukranian pilot. A few other small and subtle gestures are done to ensure that this pilot and MH17 are in the same place at the same time. MH17 plane colors: white, with red, white, and blue striping.skrik , says: July 13, 2018 at 9:09 am GMTAll "Buk" business simply comes from the fact that the Novorussians (aka "Russians" to the media) did not have an airforce and only had old Buk missiles at their disposal. And why do you like that conspiracy theory? A lifelong taste for fairy stories?
@FB Holy mother of jesus...another friggin spam storm from retardo boy...AnonFromTN , says: July 13, 2018 at 5:41 pm GMTDo you have some kind of reading comprehension, aside from obvious mental retardation...?
What part of this did you not understand...?
Also being the shit eating dog you are, you don't understand the very definition of 'ad hominem' you posted...
SO YOU NEED THE ACTUAL RAW DATA NOT A PICTURE DOWNLOADED OFF THE RUSSIAN MOD WEBSITE STUPID
I addressed your pinhead argument [such as it is] by pointing out the fact that NO IMAGE ANALYSIS CAN BE DONE FROM A WEBSITE PHOTO...
'Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument'
Again that flies over your retarded head...what does it take to make a retard understand basic English...?
Pointing out that you are obviously retarded AFTER REFUTING YOUR ARGUMENT...does not an ad hominem make...moron...
https://s20.postimg.cc/c4x34w5m5/1813173110-107094776db804c07c492fdb0bb559f4.jpg Err, not exactly OT, but consider my 'it' characterisation may be close to the mark -- if FKA Max is a robot = AI experiment [going wrong!] Consider this month alone it's posted 74 times so far, with a 'nom-life-time' average of over 320 words per post, noting a lot of cut'n paste included = getting towards 2k text per day, with a non-trivial number of incoherent sections. An erring robot for the FUKUSIL empire! rgds
@Anon I don't see you having tagged Wizard of Oz comments with Troll so are your readers to infer that your definition of a troll is someone whose questions you can't answer or whose nitpicking pedantry (as perhaps you see it) has got under your skin?FB , says: July 14, 2018 at 5:22 pm GMTBut you do say something of general interest. You allege that there are lies in a post which was nearly all relaying what the Dutch Safety Board said so it is a bit hard to see what you meant by "lies". Would you care to elucidate - unless of course your "lies" too, like "troll" was a Humpty Dumpty word. I did not mark that personage as Troll because somehow the site does not allow me to do that.
Now, as to lies, here is an incomplete list:1. None of the pieces of material evidence satisfied chain of custody rules required by the law in most countries, including the Netherlands.
2. Alleged missile fragments "from the site" were provided by one of the suspects, Ukraine. Their provenance was not (and could not be) ascertained.
3. Shrapnel pieces. I quote DSB findings "The numerous injuries resulting from perforation of the pre-formed fragments after detonation of the warhead immediately killed the three crew members in the cockpit. There were no pre-formed fragments found in the bodies of the other occupants."
4. Site access: in contrast to WoO, DSB does not complain about site access (item 2.12.1 of the report, 1st paragraph). The second paragraph talks about security situation. If fact, Ukie military shelled the area of the wreckage for weeks (mentioned in DSB report on p. 54, without specifying who was shelling the area, which is a giveaway). WoO does not acknowledge that, blaming Donetsk People's Republic instead.
5. Most foreign objects found in passenger remains were identified as personal belongings, parts of the plane, and stones/coal particles from the ground (pp. 84, 86, 95).
6. A number of metal fragments were found and analyzed. Some could have been high-energy pieces from whatever downed the plane (items 2.15.2 and 2.16.2).
7. Traces of several explosives were found: RDX, TNT, and PETN (p. 93). Only one explosive is used in Buk missiles.
8. There were two (not one) peaks of sound from cockpit recorder before the crash (pp. 11-112).
9. Item 3.8.4 is recapitulation of the Ukrainian study conducted by the Kyiv Research institute. The data from one of the possible suspects had no legal grounds to be included.
One can continue, but what's the point? The other issues (items 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8), as well as the fact that international airlines fly through the Russian airspace, but avoid Ukrainian, which I raised in my post (#45) are studiously avoided by that "WoO" personage and other trolls from the same side. Sapenti sat.
@jilles dykstra I am Dutch, and of course the disaster starled us.jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:05 am GMT
Hardly anyone in our country has no personal connection with someone who died, or someone who lost a relative or friend.
A friend of one of my children lost three relatives.However, it was striking how already on the evening of the disaster military 'experts' knew it was a Russian BUK.
That on the afternoon of the disaster prime minister Rutte made a phone call to vice prime minister Asscher, so secret that Asscher, on vacation in the south of France, had to call Rutte on a land line so that, as Asscher stated 'the Russians could not listen in'.
On the day of the disaster the Netherlands blocked sanctions against Russia, the next morning sanctions were possible.Since then the accusation, without much proof, as far as I can see, and without any motive 'that Russia did it' has been repeated over and over again.
Memorials were erected, remembrances all over the place.
So to be honest, I do not believe one word of the accusation.
The only possibility of Russian implication is an accident, Ukraine abusing overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers, in the expectation that nu BUK would be fired.The possibility of shooting down MH17 deliberately, in the tradition of Sept 11 and Pearl Harbour, quite probable, in my opinion.
These investigations, read the Warren report on the Kennedy murder, not worth the paper they're written on.
In the Warren case, Whitewash wiped the floor with Warren.
If something similar will be published on the Dutch report, I would not be surprised. Jilles I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to itFrom a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game ie so-called citizen 'journalism' here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected
' Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.
They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.
The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was '
A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer
@AnonFromTN The organizers of the crime knew exactly what is going to happen and how they intended to spin the event. What else is new? There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.jilles dykstra , says: July 15, 2018 at 11:19 am GMT
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea@FB Jilles...I just found this excellent blog thanks to a shit-eating troll here who pointed me to it...AnonFromTN , says: July 15, 2018 at 2:41 pm GMTFrom a Dutch guy named Max van der Werff who is taking on the poofter Eliot Higgins at his own game...ie so-called citizen 'journalism'... here he talks about how the Dutch authorities and JIT asked him to submit material he has compiled and collected...
A terrific blog with many good articles by a clearly intelligent young man who is smart enough to not buy the bologna on offer... The fact that I'm Dutch and follow Dutch 'news', plus that I've never heard of this Max van der Werff, tells a lot, I suppose.
'... Fact: it is the Dutch police/prosecution who asked me to submit the data I collected during +2,000 hours of research. During a four hour interview two JIT officials and I discussed many issues.They patiently listened to my explanations why, in my opinion, the official investigation is fundamentally flawed.
The article MH17 -- 1000 Days gives a good impression about how detailed the Q & A was...'
But, as with Sept 11, I'm no longer interested in detailed discussions about events.
They just muddy the waters.
Neither the rebels, nor Russia had any interest in shooting down a commerial airliner, while the west had.
Naming the criminal who is supposed to have done it, a Russian army officer, can also not convince me, as the investigation club intends to ask him why he did it.@jilles dykstra There is even a suspicion that Dutch authorities knew before the disaster knew what was going to happen.Robjil , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:13 pm GMT
Just a few days after the disaster an impressive show was staged, hundreds of hearses picking up the coffins with the remains of the bodies, driving along a closed highway from Eindhoven airport to somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands.
Someone with experience in organising big events was of the opinion that in the few days between the disaster and the show it would have been impossible to organise the show.
The coffins of course were nonsense, each coffin contained body parts of a number of different persons.
Forgot how much time it took to sort out what part was of whom.
One is reminded of Lockerby, it has never been explained why some VIP's were taken from the plane at London airport.
As Sept 11, in my opinion, Lockerby was bungled.
The explosion should have been over sea There are many indications who organized this provocation: only the organizers could have responded with the speed the US authorities did. I would not be surprised if the Dutch government was in on the game ahead of time, too. After all, what are vassals for? As we know, the king is played by its courtiers.@Mr. HackBeefcake the Mighty , says: July 15, 2018 at 9:49 pm GMTI don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "
Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
Annamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up.
@Robjil "Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII). "annamaria , says: July 15, 2018 at 6:38 pm GMTAnnamaria goes straight to heart of the hypocrisy of the Zwest. It does not make sense if the big H is the center of the universe, as our MSM promotes it to be over and over again endlessly. Why would the US/Israel work together to revive a form of Nazism to take over a large country in Europe in the 21st century? This woke me up in 2014. Now I question everything our MSM spouts. The game is up. These far right Ukrainian groups are either hired muscle who are too dumb to know that they'll be disposed of once they've outlived their usefulness, or directly bankrolled as front operations by the Jewish oligarchs running the Ukraine, as a diversionary tactic. Probably some combination of both, even Putin fails to ask the right questions about them.
@Mr. HackAnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:35 am GMTI don't know about that. So far, according to your own observations, 'my tribe' (and what a foolish attempt to try and pigeonhole me into your simplistic black and white worldview), the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting? Why address your worn out ideas and dilemmas to me? I'm neither a Banderite nor a Jew. You're barking up the wrong tree, and you'll have to find your answers somewhere else. " the ziocons (a codeword for Jews) are both supporting the evil and wicked Ukro-Nazis in Ukraine, and yet also suffering the greatest indignities from the very same junta that they're supporting?"
Your tribe cannot have it both ways. Either the Holocaust reparations and museums and incomparable sufferings and nazi-hunting, or the pro-banderite (pro-neo-Nazi) activities of Mrs. Nuland-Kagan and Mr. Carl Gerschman, the violation of the US constitution for the benefit of Israel, and the suppression of research in the European history (whether the documented history of the Jews in Russia or the numbers related to the victims of WWII).
-- You imply that the revival of neo-Nazism, with the considerable and decisive help from ziocons, and the resultant sufferings of Ukrainian Jews are self-excluding. They are not.
-- And where have you found, in my posts, a conflation of all Jews with zionists/ziocons? It is like saying that the US citizenry is made up of Cheneys and Kristols. This is not true. Speak for yourself.@FKA MaxNoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:26 am GMTYou might be on to something:
I really don't understand this phenomena either and am at a loss to try and explain it. I would think that a true-blue Ukrainian nationalist would find it sufficient to display the perennial Ukrainian trident as a personal adornment and not the German SS insignia?
The Straight-Edge Neo-Nazi Group that Attacked a Ukrainian Roma Camp
- https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/06/26/straight-edge-neo-nazi-group-attacked-ukrainian-roma-camp/ Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.
" We really understand that Russia could be behind it, but I can't say it with 100% certainty, because it wouldn't be a correct thing to do, " Hrytsak said at a joint press-conference with Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs.Hrytsak stated that "a namesake organization was registered in Russia in 2014," although it's not clear if he meant if it was formalized in Russia or popped up on the radar there. If he was referring to the large VK group, Hrytsak is mistaken, as Popovich is and was Ukrainian. While the Kremlin has directly funded and supported numerous far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Europe and Russia, most notably through the proxy of billionaire Konstantin Malofeyev http://www.unz.com/article/why-was-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/#comment-2415623 , there are no apparent links between the Sober and Angry Youth and the Kremlin other than typical links of pan-Slavism present in many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in the region.
Ukraine's Minister of Foreign Affairs also claims that, regarding the lethal attack on Roma, Russia has an interest in presenting Ukraine as "a certain radical reality that doesn't adhere to human rights."
[...]
Many Ukrainian far-right groups have a fervent anti-Russian position in relation to the war in the Donbas, including the formation of armed battalions , as seen with Right Sector's "Volunteer Ukrainian Corps," Azov Battalion, the St. Mary's Battalion, and so on. In contrast to these groups, the Sober and Angry Youth groups across Ukraine rarely express strong feelings one way or another in relation to the war, instead focusing on issues related to white supremacy, driving out migrants from Ukraine, and outing and attacking LGBT individuals. Ragozin summarized their position succinctly in a recent tweet, saying that the concerns of the Sober and Angry Youth "transcends borders and national loyalties," with their battle for white supremacy in the region overriding the war between Ukraine and Russia in the country's east.Ukrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase).
The Big Lie lives! And you'll hear it again, and again.Anon , [130] • Disclaimer says: July 16, 2018 at 12:32 pm GMT@skrikNoseytheDuke , says: July 16, 2018 at 12:53 pm GMT1st of all, attacking a commenter is ad hominem [= fallacy when 'unjustified'], 2nd one cannot contest arguments based upon false premises - like Wizard of Oz's risible "The SMH is in no way plugged into US propaganda" and FKA Max's extensive bellingcat spam, say.
Instead of just sniffing round like a flearidden mongrel and snapping at ankles ... at least answer other commenters points
3rd, a partial quote: " But it remained for the xxx, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, ... "
4th, lemma #1: At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?
5th, lemma #2: At any crime-scene, there are one or more perpetrators, possibly accessories, apologists and/or 'idle' bystanders. It is incumbent upon *all* witnesses to attempt to a) restrain malefactors and where possible b) rescue victims from harm. *All* present and not in active resistance to the crime attract proportional guilt.
Addendum: Any person profiting from crime also makes him/herself an accessory [like all non-native residents in the 'illegitimate entity,' say.]
Now, a definitive assertion: That the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes are 'black hats' capable of and actually perform depredations of the 'supreme international crime' class, any 'supporters' of same make themselves accessories and attract proportional guilt, as in lemma 2.
Declarative: My position is as a "bystander" as above, and since a) civil duty and b) silence = acquiescence, I *must* make my objections known, and choose to do so as emphatically as I can - in my own 'style.'
Finally, 'right vs left' is a useless if not false dichotomy; 'aggressors vs defending victims' is apposite and the FUKUSIL rogue-regimes can be expanded to:
FUKUS-M/I/C/4a†-plex, with dog-wagging-tail, its illegitimate sprog the Zionist/Israeli rogue regime + Js = I/J/Z-plex, all components rife with corruption.
a = academic = econ, psy, leg et al.; 4 = MSM+PFBCs, † = churches
add a few significant stragglers like $ = banksters & ¿ = spies
The subset CCC [= covert criminal cabal] plus their puppet politicians as 'rulers,' the handmaiden MSM+PFBCs [latter = publicly financed broadcasters] as Bernays-haze propagandists exactly fit as "xxx" in the top-quote and the accessory 'supporters' [i.e. trolls/hasbarats in here] constitute 'the enemy.'
Exactly because "All politicians lie!" [thanks, but "No, thanks!" to JWHoward] and the MSM+PFBCs ditto, we the world citizens are in a 'mushroom club' [= kept in the dark and fed on BS]; there is no complete factual base available to us, and so it becomes a '*circumstantial*' argument.
We, the 'white-hats' assert that the 'black-hats' as above caused MH17 to be shot down. The argument is that the preponderance of observable circumstantial evidence points that way. That the accessory supporters [= trolls/hasbarats] are 'protesting too much' [see Wizard of Oz's hysteria, say] can tell us something, namely that the white-hats' assertion hits too close to the black-hats' home. A 'tiny' [= $5bio] piece of proof: Mme Nuland's "F--k the EU!" If the cap fits ... Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F ** k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world.
@Anon Only one of the hermit like outsiders on this thread could try and make anything even once of V. Nuland's "F**k the EU", let alone trotting it out for the five hundredth time. Try and get to know some real people in the real world. Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.annamaria , says: July 16, 2018 at 6:52 pm GMTFYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason.
@AnonFromTN Bellingcat is the source? Too late, everyone with half a brain knows that bellingcat is a fraud and a liar.AnonFromTN , says: July 16, 2018 at 8:52 pm GMTUkrainian authorities and especially "activists" blame everything that damages Ukraine on Russia. I've even read that they blamed Maidan on Russia. They might have a point there: nothing damaged Ukraine more than Maidan and its post-Maidan "government" selected by Nuland (famous for her "F..k the EU" phrase). Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it."
@annamaria Please, don't feed the automated troll. This is an algorithm concocted to use the themes and sources that are the most anti-Unz-forum in spirit. The algorithm' selection is so stupid that it cannot be offered by a (normal) person. Nothing but pollution. The best is to ban "it." Judging by the amount of spam it posts and by total lack of intelligence or selection, you are probably right. Will ignore that thing from now on. Then again, a Ukie troll, even though biologically human, could be at the same level of intelligence (meaning lack thereof). After all, Ukies have medically certified retard as a speaker of their parliament. Still, whether a computer script or a Ukie, that thing should be ignored.skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 10:14 am GMT@NoseytheDuke Haw haw! That has to be one of the weakest attempts to discredit another commenter that I can recall. Congratulations on receipt of the Wet Noodle Award.skrik , says: July 17, 2018 at 1:18 pm GMTFYI, the real people in the world understand that V. Nuland was exposed as having squandered 5 billion dollars of US taxpayer's money to underwrite the most blatant coup in history which has bought nothing but death, destruction and instability and your weak attempt to mask that smacks of pathetic desperation. It seems that the weakest commenters usually go with the username "Anon" and with good reason. thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],
testing;preview works but publish disappears
@skrik thnx; I see two grounds for the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria, 1) they perceive FUKUSIL credibility approaching zero [a significant majority of aware proles don't believe "the Russians did it!" meme] and 2) the "they're killing their own people!" meme is has boomeranged back to smack 'the West' in the chops. As usual, we examine modus operandi and cui bono ; Q: Who benefited from the JFK murder? A: Number one = LBJ, Q: Who ordered the recall of the USS Liberty relief planes? A: Also LBJ, who is alleged to have been a crypto J... Then, Q: Who benefited from the 9/11 inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' PNAC [extension of Yinon Plan ],NoseytheDuke , says: July 18, 2018 at 12:58 am GMTtesting;preview works but publish disappears
[1st attempt was 'marked as spam' but later published; the rest:], Q: Who benefited from the maidan inside job/false flag? A: Number one = the ZioCons' "the bad Russians!" campaign, one sees the modus operandi trend and cui bono whodunnit. MH17 fits to the FUKUSIL pattern, *not* to the Russians. Then see Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the impossible and WYSIWYG = the hasbarats'/trolls' hysteria. They just can't help themselves; they *must* try to resist the irresistible but their very own actions only dig the criminal FUKUSIL deeper into their hole. rgds
https://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 1:31 am GMT@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.MattBoi , says: July 19, 2018 at 2:09 am GMTWhat happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.
Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.
More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.
There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."
But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece. Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.
Speaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?
p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.
@NoseytheDuke Who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the MSM? Shrapnel from a BUK is highly unlikely to create nice round holes and certainly not groups of them.NoseytheDuke , says: July 19, 2018 at 5:04 am GMTSpeaking of lies, if it was simply an accident, please explain how it came to pass that a audio recording was fabricated (by editing and splicing genuine transmissions) in a crude and easily disproven attempt to implicate the "Rebel" Donbass defenders and that this was done prior to the downing of MH17?
p.s. Approval from Peter Arse the 'Tard is hardly a commendation of your comment.
This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.Regarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.
In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:
https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html
And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end.
@MattBoi This is a common claim, but has a benign explanation: shrapnel holes from a BUK will never be the exact shape as the pellets themselves, due to the high speed and heat deforming the holes. We do not live in a cartoon world, where the character breaks through a wall and the resultant hole is the same shape as the character's body.skrik , says: July 19, 2018 at 3:01 pm GMTRegarding that audio recording, I know which one you mean, and this claim has been repeated by Dugin too. But this, as with the above, has an explanation: at the time, certain videos uploaded to YouTube suffered from a bug, in which their timestamps were incorrect, due to timezone logic issues. I am trying to find the original bug report in Google's system, but it's been too long and I'm having trouble. Search it up and you'll probably find it.
In another comment, you mentioned Carlos. It's a shame, because the story was suspicious from the start, and yet, it took 4 years for the excellent investigative journalists over at RFE/RL to debunk it by hunting down the hoax actor:
https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html
And this is why the Kremlin has won the information war: no matter how honest one is and how much effort is spent debunking lies, there's no point if no one reads the anti-propaganda in the end. A commendable attempt by you but a total fail nonetheless. If you've seen the shape of BUK shrapnel you'd realise what a massive stretch it is to even suggest that those sharp edged pieces hitting thin metal sheeting at high velocity would result in making round holes has a "benign explanation". By definition, they are designed to shred their target. That those holes would reveal both an entry and exit direction of that shrapnel while coming from the same source would require "magic shrapnel" with magical properties along the lines of the "magic bullet" of JFK fame.
The clear giveaway for me was the rush to judgement by both politicians and media, worldwide. The near instant removal of contradictory testimonials, such as the BBC broadcast of the eye-witnesses, the unconventional investigation which included one potential (and the more likely) culprit, Ukraine. The select language used by media throughout this saga has been a giveaway too, as is you providing a link to a source that was originally set up by the CIA and is now funded by Congressional whores in the USA.
I notice these are your first attempts at commenting here. A weak effort to be sure but with practice you may yet rise to the level of Quartermaster so don't be discouraged.
@MattBoi This article is a perfect example of how dishonest the so-called "alternative" media is. Rather than admit to Russia's lies about MH17, evident by its multiple, contradictory conspiracy theories, we hear some words about the "context" surrounding MH17. The meaning is clear: the author wants to claim that the West was responsible for shooting down MH17, as a "false flag." But there's just one problem: he has no evidence. So he uses the "context" surrounding the shootdown to imply that it was the U.S., using the good ol' proof-by-implication trick, leading questions, and more fallacies than a singe day's worth of Fox News.What happened is simple: the rebels accidentally shot down MH17 with a BUK, thinking it was a fighter jet. Russia was too embarrassed to that its allies could do such a thing, so it launched the biggest disinformation campaign since the Cold War-era Operation INFEKTION.
Many "independent" thinkers here ask "who benefits"?, once again implying that it was the U.S. But this is fallacious thinking: if I drop a glass of water on my foot and start bleeding, can I point my finger to my enemy, claiming it was he who did it, because why would I crack my foot on purpose?? Of course not, because it was an accident! It was unintentional.
More to the point, all of Russia's lies have been debunked. We even found Carlos, the guy claiming to be a Spanish Air Traffic Controller working in Ukraine, who "overheard" evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet shot down MH17. The story was suspicious from the start. It took 4 years, but the good folks over at REF/RL finally tracked him down, where he admitted to having lied. RT Spanish was the first to introduce this fraudster to the world, blurring his face to add legitimacy to their hoax.
There are many other lies spread by Russia, as well as leading questions aiming to sow doubt, e.g. "Why did MH17's flight route 'mysteriously' deviate that day?."
But if the gullible useful idi*ts still do not believe the truth, then they never will. They will continue to fall for the lies, including the highly dishonest author of this trash piece.
Of course not, because it was an accident!
OK; a sad and sorry, feeble attempt, but let's see. A BUK [from somewhere, anywhere] arrives at a launch-spot, is fired by some crew [who is obviously way 'under-qualified'] and hitting 'by accident' MH17, which just happened to have been put on that specific, far from normal track = anomalously, deliberately by Ukrie air-traffic-control, 'best feeble guess' = presumably the crew thinking that they are shooting down an Ukrie warplane [only Ukries have warplanes in that area].
Perhaps the BUK was captured by 'rebels' [recall Reagan-sponsored rebels were his 'patriots'], or perhaps, as bellingcat asserts, Russia actually sent in the BUK with crew, who were also so incompetent that they perpetrate this 'accident.'
Q: You really believe that? Who could accept that as an explanation with anywhere near maximum probability? It's simply too compl
