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"F*ck the EU": neocons show EU its real place and endanger the US national security

Victoria "f*ck the EU" Nuland  appointed a neoliberal Ukrainian prime minister and organized coup d'état to install him in power

( Making Ukraine "Khaganate of Nuland"; "Khaganate of Nuland" is an apt amalgam of khanate and Kagan, a hint on Victoria's notorious neo-con husband Robert Kagan by Asia Times ).

Future Prime Minister – Arseniy Yatsenyuk (rechristened to “Yats”) with his patron Victoria Nuland. Two statists -- Taygibok (Co-founder of far right Socialist-National Party, later renamed into Svoboda party) and Klitschko (leader of pro-Germany, Merkel-financed Udar Party who was just thrown under the bus) are present

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From EuroMaidan to EuroAnschluss EU-brokered agreement on ending crisis To whom EuroMaidan Sharp-shooter belong? SBU raid on Kiev Batkivshchina office Odessa Massacre of May 2, 2014 Mariupol, May 9 events
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Suppression of Russian language and culture in Ukraine Accession of Crimea to Russia Who Shot down Malaysian flight MH17 ? The Far Right Forces in Ukraine Russian Ukrainian Gas Wars Resurgence of neo-fascism as reaction on neoliberalism
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[Aug 19, 2019] Can Ukraine gradually put Western Ukrainian nationalists in it proper place

Aug 19, 2019 | www.unz.com

,

, , , , Beckow , says: Next New Comment August 18, 2019 at 7:33 pm GMT
@Kiza

miscalculation that the rotten West will help them instead of use them to create a festering sore on Russian border for just a few billion dollars in loans.

A possibly a fatal miscalculation for Ukraine, but there is also an ideology involved. In Maidan-Ukrainians case that ideology is Ukrainian nationalism combined with a servile Western worship of almost cargo-cult level. An odd combination that has led to odd result.

West wanted Zelensky to win, the question is why. Tactically, Zelensky neutralized large Russia-leaning block of voters: the 70% vote would have gone somewhere and they were not going to vote for Poroshenko or Tymoshenko. So that misdirection was successful. But what was the point? Let's look at what Zelensky is actually doing (not the throw-away comedy and rhetoric): he is trying to allow sale of Ukrainian land to foreign investors. My guess is that he will push it through and that will his main legacy. Buying up Ukrainian arable land has been a wet dream for many in the West since 1991. Zelensky could deliver on it, and then move on.

In 3-5 years we could have an interesting scenario in Ukraine with land (its main wealth) owned by foreign investors and a large % of population with Russian or Polish and other EU passports. As always with ideology, the result is the exact opposite of what that ideology claims: the dictatorship of proletariat impoverished and killed proletariat, Nazis dramatically shrunk German lebensraum, liberals obsession with ' liberty and universal brotherhood ' is leading to censorship, suppression and group hostilities. But here we are and the ideological idiocy that Maidan-Ukrainians embraced might not be reversible. This is not good for anybody.

Beckow
August 18, 2019 at 11:04 pm GMT • 100 Words @AnonFromTN

EU might decide to send its US overlords to Hell and pay Russia to take the hand grenade away from the monkey.

How would EU go against its overlord? Even if EU would try, the existential nihilism in Kiev will prevent compromise. Ideologues can't admit that their 'idea' didn't work, they prefer destroying everything around. West is also at this point incapable of admitting an error – they literally can't do it, the lying has to go on. That means that even groundwork for any possible compromise can't be put in place. This is all the way down with fireworks and it won't be pretty.

There is such a thing as a catastrophic error and the last 5 years in Ukraine comes pretty close to it. That is not really fixable. The monkey night as well use the grenade.

[Aug 18, 2019] Can Ukraine gradually put Western Ukrainian nationalists in it proper place

It's very sad that Ukraine is just a pawn in dirty geopolitical games of the USA, the EU and Russia.
Notable quotes:
"... In 3-5 years we could have an interesting scenario in Ukraine with land (its main wealth) owned by foreign investors and a large % of population with Russian or Polish and other EU passports. As always with ideology, the result is the exact opposite of what that ideology claims: the dictatorship of proletariat impoverished and killed proletariat, Nazis dramatically shrunk German lebensraum, liberals obsession with ' liberty and universal brotherhood ' is leading to censorship, suppression and group hostilities. But here we are and the ideological idiocy that Maidan-Ukrainians embraced might not be reversible. This is not good for anybody. ..."
"... For Ukraine these are all irreversible losses, but from Western perspective, these are little victories: Russia was forced to spend more. As the West does not give a hoot about Ukraine, the US and its vassals can freely celebrate these victories. ..."
"... So, it all depends on the point of view. The West never cared about aborigines, so their point of view does not come into its calculations. ..."
"... Currently prevailing mood in Russia is that Ukraine, whoever is the power there, gets nothing, nada, zilch. ..."
"... But Ukrainian authorities worked pretty hard to achieve it, and now Ukraine has to live with this new reality. It won’t be pretty. The US was simply following its standard policy: leave a pile of shit, declare victory, and leave, waiting for someone else to clean up. ..."
"... Now there is only one way Russia would clean up: if the EU pays full price for it. As this is unlikely, the aborigines are going to bear the brunt of the consequences. ..."
Aug 18, 2019 | www.unz.com

Beckow , says: Next New Comment August 18, 2019 at 7:33 pm GMT

@Kiza

miscalculation that the rotten West will help them instead of use them to create a festering sore on Russian border for just a few billion dollars in loans.

A possibly a fatal miscalculation for Ukraine, but there is also an ideology involved. In Maidan-Ukrainians case that ideology is Ukrainian nationalism combined with a servile Western worship of almost cargo-cult level. An odd combination that has led to odd result.

West wanted Zelensky to win, the question is why. Tactically, Zelensky neutralized large Russia-leaning block of voters: the 70% vote would have gone somewhere and they were not going to vote for Poroshenko or Tymoshenko. So that misdirection was successful. But what was the point?

Let's look at what Zelensky is actually doing (not the throw-away comedy and rhetoric): he is trying to allow sale of Ukrainian land to foreign investors. My guess is that he will push it through and that will his main legacy. Buying up Ukrainian arable land has been a wet dream for many in the West since 1991. Zelensky could deliver on it, and then move on.

In 3-5 years we could have an interesting scenario in Ukraine with land (its main wealth) owned by foreign investors and a large % of population with Russian or Polish and other EU passports. As always with ideology, the result is the exact opposite of what that ideology claims: the dictatorship of proletariat impoverished and killed proletariat, Nazis dramatically shrunk German lebensraum, liberals obsession with ' liberty and universal brotherhood ' is leading to censorship, suppression and group hostilities. But here we are and the ideological idiocy that Maidan-Ukrainians embraced might not be reversible. This is not good for anybody.

AnonFromTN , says: Next New Comment August 18, 2019 at 9:39 pm GMT

Why does the Saker think that Ze had any choice? He is a puppet, a stuffed shirt brought to ”power” by Kolomoisky and allied oligarchs. The only goal was to chase Porky and allied thieves from the trough to be able to steal more.

Now, the people of Ukraine had choice. But they blew it again, like many times before: each Ukrainian “president” is worse than his predecessor. As the saying goes, “fool me once, shame on you…” Ukrainians let themselves be fooled six times already, so there is no doubt where the shame goes.

It was said that the nationalism is the last resort of a scoundrel. But it isn’t the only one. Nationalism, stupid unrealistic dreams to feed sheeple, fairy tales about aggression, and the war create perfect smokescreen for blatant thievery. It continues unabated, ever since 1991.

Russia does need to make its choice. But it is complicated by the role of Russian thieves (polite word is oligarchs) in current Russian state. Putin kicked some out. The remaining ones have enough brains to figure that they need a strong state to protect them, lest their loot be stolen by Western thieves. So, they are a step ahead of Ukrainian thieves who did not tumble even to this simple realization. But no more than one step ahead.

The economic reality is that Russian state does not have the resources to restore Ukraine, even if sane forces come to power there. So, Ukraine would likely keep festering, losing millions of working age people (like today), possibly losing chunks of territory (as the joke has it, whoever remains in Ukraine pays off the debt). The problems of that huge Somalia can only be solved by concerted effort of many European countries and Russia. This is not on the cards, at least not until Ukies create yet another Chernobyl. Then the EU might decide to send its US overlords to Hell and pay Russia to take the hand grenade away from the monkey. I don’t think Putin will live long enough to see that happen.

Beckow , says: Next New Comment August 18, 2019 at 11:04 pm GMT
@AnonFromTN

…EU might decide to send its US overlords to Hell and pay Russia to take the hand grenade away from the monkey.

How would EU go against its overlord? Even if EU would try, the existential nihilism in Kiev will prevent compromise. Ideologues can’t admit that their ‘idea’ didn’t work, they prefer destroying everything around. West is also at this point incapable of admitting an error – they literally can’t do it, the lying has to go on. That means that even groundwork for any possible compromise can’t be put in place. This is all the way down with fireworks and it won’t be pretty.

There is such a thing as a catastrophic error and the last 5 years in Ukraine comes pretty close to it. That is not really fixable. The monkey night as well use the grenade.

AnonFromTN says: August 18, 2019 at 9:56 pm GMT • 100 Words
@Beckow

Minsk agreement was an incredibly generous deal, if Poroshenko had half a brain he would had jumped on it and today Donbas would be a remote backwater with autonomy.

That would be true if Porky was interested in Ukraine. As it is, his only interest and loyalty was and is his personal loot. To keep stealing, he (and allied thieves) needed the smokescreen of war, fairy tales of “aggression”, and pipe dreams of “greater Ukraine” for the sheeple. He succeeded in his thievery for five years. Now another gang of thieves pushed his gang from the trough. End of story.

annamaria says: August 18, 2019 at 11:47 pm GMT • 100 Words

@Bardon Kaldian

Are you a teenager unaware of the history of the Maidan regime-change “revolution?”
Here are two most influential Ukranian parties-participants in the “revolution:”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

The Svoboda Party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine … It is widely considered a fascist..party….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

Time has described it [the Right Sector Party] as a “radical right-wing group … a coalition of militant ultra-nationalists” with an ideology that “borders on fascism”.

Die Welt, The New York Times, and Le Monde Diplomatique have described some of Right Sector’s constituent groups as radical right-wing, neofascist, or neo-Nazi…

https://www.globalresearch.ca/conspiring-neo-nazi-parties-washington-eu-role-kiev-coup/5684545

AnonFromTN says: August 19, 2019 at 12:56 am GMT • 300 Words

@Beckow

You are a pessimist (or a fatalist). I agree that EU is shamefully subservient to the US, but when some of their core interests are at stake, even slavish EU can show some teeth. Just think of Nord Stream-2: the US is jumping out of its skin to damage this project, but Germany stands remarkably firm.

From Western point of view, Ukie provocation was not a complete failure (even though it’s a catastrophic failure from Ukrainian point of view): Russia had to spend a lot to develop the production of military things it used to import from Ukraine, like ships, ship engines, helicopter engines, spaceship control systems, etc.

Now that it acquired the capability to produce these things, there will be no going back regardless who rules Ukraine: it’s industries that used to export to Russia are doomed. These include such giants as Nikolaev shipbuilding plant, Motor Sich in Zaparozie, Antonov aircraft building plant in Kiev, etc. The same goes for transit.

It is not just natural gas transit everybody talks about. Russia used to transport ammonia to Odessa, where it was partially exported and partially converted into fertilizers. The plant that used to do that is dead.

Ukraine tried to sell it for $5 billion under Yanuk and got no takers, about a year ago it tried to sell it for 10% of that price, and got no takers again.

There also used to be substantial Russian payments for transport via the railway going across Eastern Ukraine.

Russia built an alternative bypassing Ukraine, so they might as well dismantle the rails on their route.

For Ukraine these are all irreversible losses, but from Western perspective, these are little victories: Russia was forced to spend more. As the West does not give a hoot about Ukraine, the US and its vassals can freely celebrate these victories.

So, it all depends on the point of view. The West never cared about aborigines, so their point of view does not come into its calculations.

AnonFromTN says: August 19, 2019 at 1:13 am GMT • 100 Words

@Andrei Martyanov

That’s true, when it comes to resources, there are always alternatives how to spend them.

Currently prevailing mood in Russia is that Ukraine, whoever is the power there, gets nothing, nada, zilch.

Considering how closely Ukrainians are related to Russians, this feat wasn’t easy.

But Ukrainian authorities worked pretty hard to achieve it, and now Ukraine has to live with this new reality. It won’t be pretty. The US was simply following its standard policy: leave a pile of shit, declare victory, and leave, waiting for someone else to clean up.

Now there is only one way Russia would clean up: if the EU pays full price for it. As this is unlikely, the aborigines are going to bear the brunt of the consequences.

[Aug 18, 2019] Ukie nationalism vs Otto von Bismarck by The Saker

Saker is naive and badly educated. It is stupid to call Ukraine an oligarchy. All countries on Earth are oligarchies. The real question is which group of oligarchs is in power. In case of Ukraine those are privatization sharks, the worst kind of neoliberal financial scum. Often real criminals.
Otto von Bismarck created a powerful German state which exists to this day. While vassal of the USA it is still a state now. And Merkel role in EuroMaidan definitely reminds Drang nach Osten in neoliberal packaging. Neocolonialism in its pure form
Ukraine is just a pawn in a bigger geopolitical game of the USA and EU against Russia. That explains in the current state of Ukrainian economics and the level of Ukrainian population sufferings. Ukrainian nationalist paradoxically served as the fifth column for the neoliberal oligarchy. The phenomenon similar to the US nationalists role under Trump.
At the same time despite dismally low standard of living Ukrainian population is showing great resilience in the current hardships and infrastructure while completely worn out still works. But Ukraine is now completely Latin-Americanized, which was the goal of the USA from the very beginning for all Soviet space. Ukraine now is a debt slave of the West which is completely opposite to any nationalist movement goals.
According to Wikipedia just 5% of population lives of less than $5.50 a day. That's baloney. In reality the percentage is probably two-three times times higher (average monthly pension is typically less then $1500 grivna which is less then $60) so most of pensioners live on less then $2 a day. 8 million of the approximately 12 million of Ukrainian pensioners were receiving the minimum pension of 1312 (around $50) while medium pension amounted to 1886 UAH (Pensions in Ukraine - Wikipedia) And 12 million is 28% of Ukrainian population (around 42-43 million total down from 45.55 before EuroMaydan ). It is declining around 200 persons daily. On average there are 462,052 births and 662,571 deaths in Ukraine per year.
While pensioners are definitely starving the situation at least stabilized with grivna around 25 per dollar (something like 300% after the EuroMaydan). So Nuland advantures cost dearly for average Ukrainian.
Notable quotes:
"... These guys are a minority, a pretty small one even, but they have enough muscle and even firepower to threaten any nominal Ukrainian leader. ..."
Aug 18, 2019 | www.unz.com

As I have indicated in a recent article , the Ukraine is not a democracy but an oligarchy : ever since 1991 the most prosperous Soviet republic was mercilessly plundered by an entire class (in the Marxist sense of the word) of oligarchs whose biggest fear has always been that the same "horror" (from their point of view) which befell Russia with Putin, would eventually arrive at the Ukraine.

Here we need to make something clear: this is NOT, repeat, NOT about nationality or nationalism. The Ukrainian oligarchs are just like any other oligarchs: their loyalty is to their money and nothing else. If you want to characterize these oligarchs, you could think of them as culturally "post-Soviet" meaning that they don't care about nationality, and even though their prime language is Russian, they don't give a damn about Russia or Russians (or anybody else, for that matter!). Since many of them are Jews, they have a network of supporters/accomplices in Israel of course, but also in the West and even in Russia. In truth, these guys are the ultimate "internationalists" in their own, toxic, kind of way.

Some fine specimens of "ochlocrats"

The other significant force in the Ukraine is the West Ukrainian (Galician) Nazi death-squads and mobs. Their power is not a democracy either, but an ochlocracy . These guys are a minority, a pretty small one even, but they have enough muscle and even firepower to threaten any nominal Ukrainian leader.


Korenchkin , says: August 15, 2019 at 7:42 am GMT

Can you stop with the Ukronazi crap, what kind of Nazi Government has a Jewish PM and Jewish President ?
Azov guys dying in Donbass and the street thugs in Kiev are just cannon fodder, they don't run shit

The majority of Ukranians don't want to be in this conflict, I don't see the point in demonizing all of them because of some fascist larpers

Malla , says: August 15, 2019 at 12:44 pm GMT
People need to move on from the past and stop all that hating others for some past deeds. Polish or Western Ukrainian hatred for Russians, Russian hatred for Germans, Chinese & Korean hatred for the Japanese, Indian hatred for the British or the Chinese, Black South African hatred for Afrikaners. All these are counter productive for the people and are emotions which can be whipped up by the elites to have commoners die like cannon fodder at worst or to take away attention towards a past historic enemy to hide their own corruption/ incompetence at best.
People need to see things from the other side as well.

As far as the Satanic Zio elite pigs, they will use any ideology as long as it serves them. Democracy, Communism, anti-Communism, Islamic fundamentalism, anti-Islam, Jingoistic Nationalism, Anti-Nationalism/One Worldism, feminism, Hindutva, Buddhist fundamentalism (Sri Lanka BBS and the secret Zionist hand), Neo-Conservatism, Leftism, Colonialism, anti-Colonialism as long it suits them. They use them and discard them away when needed. But this seems to be the most extreme case ever. For the first time the Zio elites are using National Socialism as an ideology to serve them. The ideology which was probably the greatest enemy and threat to the Zio elites, in human history. Freakin crazy!!!

Mr. Hack , says: August 15, 2019 at 2:39 pm GMT
More grist for Saker's suckers. The Galicians (and Ukro-Nazi Jews) are behind everything. In Saker's simplistic mind the Galicians have infiltrated all of Ukrainian society and run the whole show, when in fact this is just a bunch of nonsense. Well, at least Saker is putting to use his favorite Ukrainian pejorative do I really need to repeat it again, ad nauseum?
Colin Wright , says: Website August 15, 2019 at 4:38 pm GMT
' Russia will always remain the reality check on their delusions. This was as true in the distant 13th century as it is nowadays '

It's nit-picking, but you might want to edit that sentence slightly.

In the thirteenth century, both the Ukrainians and the Russians faced more dire threats than each other.

Colin Wright , says: Website August 15, 2019 at 4:53 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack ' Ukro-Nazi Jews '

You have to admit that's an impressive combination.

Adûnâi , says: August 15, 2019 at 6:17 pm GMT
"The other significant force in the Ukraine is the West Ukrainian (Galician) Nazi death-squads and mobs."

Where are death camps for the Jews? Where are racial laws that expel non-Ukrainians? Where is the propaganda of eugenics and healthy lifestyle? Where are construction projects bringing in jobs, and state-subsidized recreation tours?

Ukraine is a Jew-driven shithole that has nothing to do with National Socialism. They don't even honour the sacrifice of the SS Galizien.

"but what they are genuinely fantasizing about is the territory, and only the territory. As for the 2 million-plus virulently anti-Nazi people currently living on these lands, they simply want them either dead or expelled)."

A lie. Currently, more than a half of those "expelled" have migrated inside Ukraine. A stark contrast to Croatia where the Serbs were driven out of the country, and their land given to Croats.

Again, Ukraine is suicidal and full of civic nationalism, nothing about it is blood-based.

"They and their Polish supporters want Russia to break apart in numerous small state-lets which they (or, in their delusional dreams, the Chinese) could dominate."

Why do you consider this as a negative for the Russian people? The current Russian state is in its death throes as much as the US and France – the ethnic Russians are dying out, fleeing and being replaced. Any alternative might prove out more hopeful.

"In contrast, the LDNR forces seem to be doing pretty well, and their morale appears to be as strong as ever (which is unsurprising since their military ethos is based in 1000 years of Russian military history)."

I have to remind you that the Donbass was colonized far more recently than Ukraine – in the 18-19th centuries. What "ancient" traditions?

"but Novorussia also is a never healing wound in the side of Nazi-occupied Ukraine"

The Donbass has never been part of Novorussia which is to the west, from Dniepropetrovsk to Odessa. Admittedly, Novorussia's colonists were mostly from Ukraine – it is clearly seen on the language maps.

"The problem with this slogan is that there is simply no way the (relatively small) Galician population can ever succeed in permanently defeating their much bigger (and, frankly, much smarter) Jewish, Polish or Russian neighbors."

Khmelnitsky managed to do just that – 100k dead Jews. And he's on the Ukrainian currency. Too bad modern "Nazi" Ukrainians have elected a Jew President. This is not the Khmelnitsky uprising, this is Kiev under the Khazar Khaganate before Oleg came from the North.

AP , says: August 15, 2019 at 10:45 pm GMT
It's a of nonsense as usual. This piece is quickly refuted:

ever since 1991 the most prosperous Soviet republic

People who spread this myth are ignorant or liars. It's a common one, though.

In 1990 Ukraine's per capita GDP was $1570.

Russia's was $3485.
Belarus was $2124.

So in Soviet times, Ukraine was the poorest of the three Slavic Soviet Republics. It still is, the position hasn't changed. It's just fallen further behind.

::::::::

Everything else is just as nonsensical, I won't even bother to detail it, most of the commenters here are as dumb/ignorant/dishonest (take your pick) as the author pretends to be.

Curmudgeon , says: August 15, 2019 at 11:15 pm GMT
I don't know where Saker sources his history. Lenin had nothing to do with the creation of Ukraine.

I live in Western Canada, where Ukrainians come starting in the late 19th century. I'm not referring to the primarily German speaking Mennonites that left South Central Ukraine, in the 1870s, fleeing religious persecution. By WWI, more than 200,000 were in Western Canada from all parts of Ukraine. They considered themselves Ukrainians, not Russians, or Galicians. They were, and to a great extent, still are Ukrainian nationalists. There continues to be friction with Polish and German local populations, although prior to the "rebirth" of Ukraine, it had largely subsided. Recent Russian immigrants are shunned as much as the "Poles" and "Germans". Politically, they are generally left of center, and have been since their arrival, although in recent decades more have become "conservative" (whatever that means these days). A long ago former Russian Jewish co-worker who was a late 60s "escapee" from the USSR, told me that he would never vote for one of our political parties, because there were "too many Ukrainians" in the party. I asked a "Ukrainian" friend, who I had known since grade school, what that meant. His explanation was that there had always been tensions between Jews and Ukrainians, for centuries, because of what Ukrainians believed was exploitation by the Jews. Other "Ukrainians" and "Jews" have confirmed this.

The reality is, that most people in most countries just want to live their lives in peace, with a job good enough to provide a decent home and food for the family. That 70% of Ukrainians want that is not surprising, it's normal. That doesn't mean they aren't nationalists, and it doesn't mean they are Nazis. However screwed up they are in trying to do so, Ukrainians are struggling to retain their identity and culture. IMO, they are up against internationalist forces from all sides, and none are interested in letting that happen.

Beckow , says: August 16, 2019 at 1:22 am GMT
@Curmudgeon The Nazi name-calling is over the top, and not just with regard to Ukraine or Galicia. Historical grievances or revisions are not 'Nazism'. Too many people look at Ukraine and over-interpret the nostalgia for Bandera or simple national self-assertion.

But I think Saker is right about where this is going. Russian side has local dominance and that will not change. The only game in town for the last 5 years has been to see if the Western squeeze of Russia will work faster than the Russian squeeze of Ukraine. By now it is obvious that it won't.

Kiev has made some fatal mistakes. E.g. Minsk agreement was an incredibly generous deal, if Poroshenko had half a brain he would had jumped on it and today Donbas would be a remote backwater with autonomy . So? The state would be intact, taxes would be paid, passports centrally issued, etc The eastern European dynamic is that any population always ends up disliking its immediate rulers – how long before local leaders in Donbas would be challenged by some younger corruption fighters.

The whole Maidan thing was also terribly mismanaged – at its core it was about getting the best potential deal for Ukraine with EU (and Russia). In the middle of the negotiation suddenly Maidanistas decided that symbols are more important than reality and basically folded in front of EU. Consequently Russia walked. Thus Kiev got justa bout the worst possible combination on non-EU and deep hostility with Russia. Smarter guys would had handled it much better, playing both sides against each other – raising the stakes.

And let's not even get started on Crimea, while Ukies ate stale cookies, they lost overnight their most valuable possession – they couldn't anticipate it? Being able to anticipate is a key to intelligence and in playing any game.

So we can talk about what or who is driving modern Ukraine, oligarchs, Galicians, Jews, Kiev thugs, Canadians – it doesn't matter, what matters is that they are incompetent. From Yushenko to Zelensky they are amateurs driven by emotion and greed. There is no state-forming force, there is no true Ukrainian nationalism that would play up Ukraine's strengths and manage its weaknesses. Saker is basically right – they are in a no-win cul-de-sac, at this point any move will make their situation worse. Their best (only?) hope is a collapse of Russia. Now, how likely is that?

bevin , says: August 16, 2019 at 1:33 am GMT
@Korenchkin " what kind of Nazi Government has a Jewish PM and Jewish President ?"
Israel.
Felix Keverich , says: August 16, 2019 at 8:23 am GMT
@peterAUS This is not a real nation. There is no such thing as "genuine Ukrainian nationalists".

AP doesn't count – the dude lives in Canada! So Galician nutters is all you get.

Korenchkin , says: August 16, 2019 at 1:14 pm GMT
@Felix Keverich Autism of this degree does not pop out of nowhere
You had Cossacks and Mercenaries from the Ukraine joining up with the Poles, Swedes, Napoleon, Germans and others. Calling diaspora nationalists stupid is all fine and dandy but the constant bickering between people in current Ukraine and in Russia stinks of divide and conquer (which is what Ukraine vs Russia conflicts always were)

Calling them stupid and calling their ethnicity fake(which they make an actual effort to preserve, such as it is) stinks of hypocrisy when so many Great Russians were willing to tear their country, religion and people apart in 1917 and join up with the Bolsheviks in the rape and pillaging

You'd probably get far more progress calling them a branch of Russian civilization, you can cite Belarus and Siberian Ukraine as examples
It's easy to dogpile on some poor Hohol since they will always be on the defensive, but it's much harder to understand him and admit your own faults while not backing down from your standpoint that you are both one people

Serbs often made the same mistakes with Montenegro, and the result is the modern day shitfest where both it and Ukraine are run by hostile US puppets

peter mcloughlin , says: August 16, 2019 at 3:58 pm GMT
The Saker is correct that reality and pragmatism are essential 'when trying to figure out what is going on and what might happen next.' It is a hard calculation to make in a world increasingly chaotic and dark. The Minsk Accord is probably the only glimmer of light for Ukraine, but then all the lights – across the world – are going out.
https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/
Andrei Martyanov , says: Website August 16, 2019 at 5:36 pm GMT
@Curmudgeon

However screwed up they are in trying to do so, Ukrainians are struggling to retain their identity and culture. IMO, they are up against internationalist forces from all sides, and none are interested in letting that happen.

What you posted is called a generic "to be against everything bad, for everything good". Living in a world of unicorns and having rainbows as result of bowel movement is, of course, a worthy aspiration but reality with Ukraine is a teeny-weeny bit more complicated than mere attempts to "retain their identity and culture". I'll give you a hint, vast swaths of Ukrainian population (including in the East Ukraine) believe, as an example, that Ukrainian civilization precedes a Sumerian one. Many, very many, also still believe that valiant Ukrainian Armed Forces still fight, for the 5th year in a row, mighty Russian Army in the East. We are talking here about down right mental breakdown on a national level, granted, as I always say, modern Ukraine did happen, that is coalesced, as a political nation.

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website August 16, 2019 at 5:58 pm GMT
@Beckow

There is no state-forming force, there is no true Ukrainian nationalism that would play up Ukraine's strengths and manage its weaknesses

There is one–modern Ukraine is a "anti-Russia" project, that is also a foundation of its state ideology and, I may add, mythology.

mejohnr1 , says: August 16, 2019 at 7:37 pm GMT

In the thirteenth century, both the Ukrainians and the Russians faced more dire threats than each other.

In the 13th century there were no Ukrainians or Ukraine. There was Russia though, Rus'. Imagine a US state becoming independent today, from the rest of the US.. like Ohio.. and people are going to say "the first man on the moon was an Ohioan (Armstrong), not an American. Sorry, doesn't work like that..

Commentator Mike , says: August 18, 2019 at 8:10 am GMT
@Colin Wright

' Ukro-Nazi Jews '

You have to admit that's an impressive combination.

Yes, but it wasn't the Saker who invented it; it does seem to reflect what's going on there. My only criticism is that he has given more prominence to the Nazis than the Jews, unless we consider "oligarchs" as a synonym for Jews.

Bardon Kaldian , says: August 18, 2019 at 8:39 am GMT
When I see words like "Nazis" in relation to Ukrainians, I know that article is sh!t & not worth reading.
Commentator Mike , says: August 18, 2019 at 8:42 am GMT
@peterAUS

why he writes like that/we have such posts here?

Like you have said in the past he is taking the Russian side. I think it's a fairly good analysis of the situation if you go beyond his propagandistic terminology and what he leaves unsaid. Russia really doesn't want to engage directly in the conflict but its best policy would be to bide its time and to encourage more pro-Russian separatism in Odessa and all other regions along the coast so as to eventually cut off Ukraine from access to the sea altogether. That would serve Russian interests best and strengthen its position against NATO, the EU, and the rump Ukraine, for whatever is to follow. It's a shame for any real Ukranian nationalists but then they should have been smarter than to join all those colour revolutions on Maidan organised by the CIA, Soros, Jewish oligarchs, etc.

That's a frozen conflict for now. Let's have another article on UR about the latest from the US sponsored colour revolution in Hong Kong and what are the best measures that PR China can take to quell the riots. And it's about time they took back Formosa, but it won't be as easy as the Russian takeover of Crimea, unless they can send a million Red Army guards there disguised as tourists to stage a silent putsch.

Tom Welsh , says: August 18, 2019 at 10:38 am GMT
"As I have indicated in a recent article, the Ukraine is not a democracy but an oligarchy "

Like the USA, the UK, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India

None of those countries have ever been democracies in any sense of the word.

Robjil , says: August 18, 2019 at 11:24 am GMT
@Bardon Kaldian Neonazis is a good term for the people used in the Ukrainian ZUS coup. That is the people that was used to gain control of Ukraine for ZUS.

This coup in Ukraine, woke me up.

V. Nuland's war cry to bless the coup was "F–k The EU"

She used Neonazis to take over Ukraine.

Wait. She is Jewish. I guess the 6 million story must be bogus. She admitted it, since if the 6 million story was real. She would have a great fear of a tidal wave of anti-S'ism overcoming her and her people. She had no fear. Thus, the 6 million story was proved to be false by V. Nuland. Thanks V. Nuland for freeing the world of that nightmarish propaganda that has saddled humanity for seventy odd years.

Secondly, she told the world the reality of J. Supremacism by stating " F..k the EU". The world thought that ZUS loved the EU as its sister in world domination. I guess not. Would V. Nuland ever say "F..k Israel"? I think not.

Thanks V. Nuland. A new Queen Esther or Queen Victoria.

Robjil , says: August 18, 2019 at 11:37 am GMT
@Tom Welsh Yes, ZUS ukraine is being run just like the rest of us in the west.

The little people are considered "deplorable" and treated that way.

At least, ZUS ukraine is not be over run by people fleeing ZUS wars and coups.

I guess since ZUS ukraine is not in good shape for these fleeing people.

ZUS ukraine is in the same shape as the nations that the fleeing people come from.

So there is no reason for them to go to ZUS ukraine.

GMC , says: August 18, 2019 at 12:09 pm GMT
Yep, agree with Saker – I lived there before , during and now after the Maidan and he's spot on with most of everything – he has been, since the beginning. Zelinsky has a dozen or more bosses and he has Zero experience in what he's doing. . Zionist Bankers and their arms dealers, Nato, Banderas gang,Washington, US Navy, Monsanto/Bayer, Royal Dutch {shell oil }, Dupont, Lilly Pharma, Cargill, and the list could go on. He'll be lucky if he isn't in Diapers by the time his term is up, otherwise he will be rich. I see that Poroshanster is being called out for taking 8 billion bucks out of Ukie-Ville. I wonder how much Trump and his family will end up stealing?. Thanks Unz Review.
Kiza , says: August 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm GMT
@Beckow

Thus Kiev got justa bout the worst possible combination on non-EU and deep hostility with Russia. Smarter guys would had handled it much better, playing both sides against each other – raising the stakes.

As usual, you nailed it Beckow.
Also, Saker often misunderstands things but he is right that Ukraine is in a one way street mainly because of the out-of-this-World miscalculation that the rotten West will somehow help them instead of use them to create a festering sore on Russian border for just a few billion dollars in loans. It is the rest of Ukraine, excluding Donbas, that will have to pay off these war loans already stolen by the oligarchs.

Anon [424] Disclaimer , says: August 18, 2019 at 1:56 pm GMT

https://www.youtube.com/embed/d2xCLqQnnjs?feature=oembed

Bill Jones , says: August 18, 2019 at 2:23 pm GMT
@Commentator Mike I recall that at the time of the Zionist coup (We do remember Ms Noodleman's : "fuck the EU" don't we?) Ukrainian Nazi's were a leading force in kicking things off.
Skeptikal , says: August 18, 2019 at 2:43 pm GMT
@Mr. Hack "In Saker's simplistic mind the Galicians have infiltrated all of Ukrainian society and run the whole show, "

This was not what I read.
The Saker said that oligarchs and Nazi militia groups have enough power to impose their will and their agenda on the rest of the population.

Andrei Martyanov , says: Website August 18, 2019 at 3:22 pm GMT
@Bardon Kaldian

When I see words like "Nazis" in relation to Ukrainians, I know that article is sh!t & not worth reading.

This is because you don't know what Raguli(stan) is and you cannot possibly know, because there are no "books" written yet which would encapsulate this whole phenomenon. Of course, Ukies have no relation to Fichte and Volkskrieg. Other than that you will find an attentive audience among local ignoramuses.

[Aug 17, 2019] The Unraveling of the Failed Trump Coup by Larry C Johnson

Highly recommended!
Former Ukrainian presidential candidate Yulia Tymoshenko trace to Steele dossier is a real shocker.
Notable quotes:
"... On December 5, 2016, Bruce Ohr emailed himself an Excel spreadsheet, seemingly from his wife Nellie Ohr, titled " WhosWho19Sept2016 ." The spreadsheet purports to show relationship descriptions and "linkages" between Donald Trump, his family and criminal figures, many of whom were Russians. ..."
"... If you want to have more fun, search the pdf using the term "BAYROCK." You will discover that Nellie Ohr, like a female Don Quixote, is searching desperately to link Trump and Sater to dirty Russian money. What she does not suspect is that Sater was being used, via his company Bayrock, to try to gain access to Russians who were potential targets of the FBI. ..."
"... What is not emphasized in the piece, and it is something I want to direct you to, is that the idea or impetus to launch the investigation of Butina came courtesy of Christopher Steele, who was relaying rumor and conjecture to Bruce Ohr. ..."
"... FBI Director Christopher Wray reminds me of one of the workers in the bowels of the Titanic who was furiously shoveling coal into the doomed boilers of the sinking ship. The FBI, like the Titanic, is in trouble. ..."
"... It also gave immunity to all of the people on Hillary's team that participated in obstruction of justice. On that same day, Jim Comey signed off on a separate memo that decided not to prosecute Hillary Clinton. ..."
"... Larry..Fusion GPS has always refused to Reveal who where its Financial support came from... ..."
"... So..the Timeline Indicates Fusion GPS was hired by The "Washington Free Beacon" around October 2015 to background checks and Profiles of The Republican Candidates for President.and that Fusion GPS continued to do so until May 2016..when it became clear that Donald Trump clinched the Nomination.. ..."
"... I wonder why AG Barr isn't forcing the FBI to comply sooner with Judge Boasberg's ruling to hand over unredacted Comey Memos and Archey Declarations? ..."
"... So what did Barack Obama know, and when did he know it? ..."
"... Nellie Ohr was working for a privately-owned firm that had employed her to make false accusations about Trump's alleged connections to Russians in order to sabotage his presidency and lay the groundwork for his impeachment. ..."
"... They also hired foreign agent, Chris Steele to concoct a thoroughly-debunked dossier for the same purpose. ..."
"... Can these people be charged with a crime or have we entered a new world of 'dirty tricks'??? ..."
"... Examination of the Nellie Ohr documents given to the FBI shows some of her source material also came from former Ukrainian presidential candidate Yulia Tymoshenko and a lawsuit she filed against Manafort. ..."
"... So, Bruce Ohr became a conduit of information not only for intelligence from Clinton's British opposition-researcher but also from his wife's curation of evidence from a Clinton foreign ally and Manafort enemy inside Ukraine. Talk about foreign influence in a U.S. election! ..."
"... The lines between government officials and informants, unverified political dirt and real intelligence, personal interest and law enforcement, became too blurred for the Justice Department's own good. ..."
Aug 17, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

There are many moving pieces in the drama surrounding the Deep State attempt to kill the Trump Presidency. God Bless Judicial Watch. I think most of the key evidence that has surfaced came courtesy of Tom Fitton, Chris Farrell and their team of tireless workers.

I want to bring you back to Mr. Felix Sater . He was part of Bayrock, which worked closely with Donald Trump's organization and, most importantly of all, was an FBI Confidential Human Source since December of 1998.

Thanks to Judicial Watch we have a new dump of Bruce Ohr emails, which include several from his wife, Nellie. There are 330 pages to wade thru (you can see them here ). There is one item in particular I encourage you to look at:

On December 5, 2016, Bruce Ohr emailed himself an Excel spreadsheet, seemingly from his wife Nellie Ohr, titled " WhosWho19Sept2016 ." The spreadsheet purports to show relationship descriptions and "linkages" between Donald Trump, his family and criminal figures, many of whom were Russians. This list of individuals allegedly "linked to Trump" include: a Russian involved in a "gangland killing;" an Uzbek mafia don; a former KGB officer suspected in the murder of Paul Tatum; a Russian who reportedly "buys up banks and pumps them dry"; a Russian money launderer for Sergei Magnitsky; a Turk accused of shipping oil for ISIS; a couple who lent their name to the Trump Institute, promoting its "get-rich-quick schemes"; a man who poured him a drink; and others.

The spreadsheet starts on page 301. If you search the document for the name Felix Sater, he will pop up. Now here is the curious and, I suppose, reassuring thing about this document--Nellie Ohr did not have a clue that Felix Sater was an active FBI informant. We can at least give the FBI credit for protecting Sater's identity from Nellie Ohr and, more importantly, her husband, DOJ official Bruce Ohr.

If you want to have more fun, search the pdf using the term "BAYROCK." You will discover that Nellie Ohr, like a female Don Quixote, is searching desperately to link Trump and Sater to dirty Russian money. What she does not suspect is that Sater was being used, via his company Bayrock, to try to gain access to Russians who were potential targets of the FBI.

One point is clear--she uncovered no evidence implicating Trump working with the Russians, either thru Felix Sater or one of the other "suspects" she exhaustively listed.

Shifting gears, there are two very important pieces recently posted at The Conservative Tree House that I encourage you to read:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/08/12/quirky-angle-overstock-ceo-patrick-byrne-2016-fbi-activity-was-political-espionage/#more-168122 https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/08/12/federal-judge-completely-rejects-doj-argument-orders-archey-declarations-descriptions-of-comey-memosreleased/ The first piece focuses on CEO Patrick Byrne and the role he played in trying to entrap and portray Marina Butina as a Russian agent.

What is not emphasized in the piece, and it is something I want to direct you to, is that the idea or impetus to launch the investigation of Butina came courtesy of Christopher Steele, who was relaying rumor and conjecture to Bruce Ohr.

You can find this information in the Bruce Ohr 302s that Judicial Watch also secured. Marina Butina was unfairly and unjustly portrayed and prosecuted as a Russian intelligence agent. It was a damn lie.

I do not ever want to hear another American complaining about an American State Department or CIA employee who is entrapped and unfairly prosecuted in Russia.

We have done the same damn thing that we have accused the Soviets of doing. The same thing. It is shameful.

The second piece is the ultimate feel good piece. Kudos to its author, Sundance.

He details how a Federal Judge, infuriated by the FBIs stupidity and mendacity, tells the Bureau to go pound sand. The FBI is frantically trying to prevent the Archey Declarations from being revealed thanks to a lawsuit brought by CNN (finally, CNN did something right).

The Archey Declarations provide a detailed description of the memos written and illegally removed from FBI Headquarters by that sanctimonious twit, Jim Comey. More shoes will be dropping in the coming days.

It appears that Inspector General Horowitz is going to present at least one report on Jim Comey and one report on the FISA abuse by the FBI.

FBI Director Christopher Wray reminds me of one of the workers in the bowels of the Titanic who was furiously shoveling coal into the doomed boilers of the sinking ship. The FBI, like the Titanic, is in trouble.

Finally, Gateway Pundit's Joe Hoft put up an important piece today ( see here ). Here is the bottomline, and keep this in mind as you read the piece, on June 20, 2016 the FBI signed off on a deal with Hillary Clinton's attorney's that gave Hillary's team the right to destroy computers and emails.

It also gave immunity to all of the people on Hillary's team that participated in obstruction of justice. On that same day, Jim Comey signed off on a separate memo that decided not to prosecute Hillary Clinton.

The fix was in more than a month before Jim Comey appeared on camera to try to explain why he was not recommending prosecution of Hillary for putting Top Secret information on her unclassified server.

Jim Comey lied when he declared that could not prove "intent."

I am sure that those of you who have never held a clearance and handled Top Secret material probably believed that lie.

But anyone who knows how the TS system is set up knows that the ONLY WAY, I repeat, the ONLY WAY to put TS material on an unclassified server is to do so intentionally. There is no way to do this mistakenly.


Jim Ticehurst said in reply to Jim Ticehurst... ,

Larry..Fusion GPS has always refused to Reveal who where its Financial support came from...

So..the Timeline Indicates Fusion GPS was hired by The "Washington Free Beacon" around October 2015 to background checks and Profiles of The Republican Candidates for President.and that Fusion GPS continued to do so until May 2016..when it became clear that Donald Trump clinched the Nomination..

creating Phase 2..Operations..

"The Washington Free Beacon ".Has an Editor in Chief ..who is William Kristols Son In Law..And William Kristols ..Father....Irving Kristol..is Called..."the God Father of Neo Conservatism". William Kristol..was a John McCain supporter..

Thus Fusion GPS..retained Nellie Ohr..(strangly..NO Wiki Profile) who apparently had to Use her husbnd Bruce Ohrs Clearances,,to continue Her Collaberation with Fusion GPS..

By June 2016 the Strategy was to bring in Christopher Steele..who was know to Bruce Ohr back to 2006.. Strange.. NO early life BIOS for Bruce or Nellie Ohr..

Jack , 16 August 2019 at 01:38 AM
Larry

Do you believe the current DOJ under Barr will really investigate and convene a grand jury to hear testimony from Comey, Brennan and Clapper?

And what do you make of the fact that Epstein who was on suicide watch either was murdered or killed himself while in custody?

akaPatience , 16 August 2019 at 01:38 AM
I wonder why AG Barr isn't forcing the FBI to comply sooner with Judge Boasberg's ruling to hand over unredacted Comey Memos and Archey Declarations?

The Gateway Pundit item about the ridiculously unfair and unethical deals made in Hillary Clinton's email scandal investigation is just further proof of how the Clinton taint infected the FBI. "Crooked" is a very apt epithet, that's for sure. I'd love to know how much Bill and Hill raked in during her Sec'y. of State racketeering.

Fred , 16 August 2019 at 01:38 AM
So what did Barack Obama know, and when did he know it?
plantman , 16 August 2019 at 01:38 AM
You say: "One point is clear--she uncovered no evidence implicating Trump working with the Russians, either thru Felix Sater or one of the other "suspects" she exhaustively listed."

This is true, but it is also true that Nellie Ohr was working for a privately-owned firm that had employed her to make false accusations about Trump's alleged connections to Russians in order to sabotage his presidency and lay the groundwork for his impeachment.

They also hired foreign agent, Chris Steele to concoct a thoroughly-debunked dossier for the same purpose.

Can these people be charged with a crime or have we entered a new world of 'dirty tricks'???

Keith Harbaugh , 16 August 2019 at 01:38 AM
Let me just add this piece by John Solomon: "New evidence shows why Steele, the Ohrs and TSA workers never should have become DOJ sources" by John Solomon, 2019-08-15
...
Examination of the Nellie Ohr documents given to the FBI shows some of her source material also came from former Ukrainian presidential candidate Yulia Tymoshenko and a lawsuit she filed against Manafort.

Why is that significant? Tymoshenko and Hillary Clinton had a simpatico relationship after the former secretary of State went out of her way in January 2013 to advocate for Tymoshenko's release from prison on corruption charges.

So, Bruce Ohr became a conduit of information not only for intelligence from Clinton's British opposition-researcher but also from his wife's curation of evidence from a Clinton foreign ally and Manafort enemy inside Ukraine. Talk about foreign influence in a U.S. election!
...
The tales of Bruce and Nellie Ohr, Christopher Steele, Yulia Tymoshenko, and those DEA and TSA agents raise a stark warning:

The lines between government officials and informants, unverified political dirt and real intelligence, personal interest and law enforcement,
became too blurred for the Justice Department's own good.

That's a problem sorely in need of fixing.

oldman22 said in reply to Keith Harbaugh... 17 August 2019 at 01:16 AM

The person responsible for securing the release of Yulia Tymoshenko was Chancellor Merkel. Further, that USA opposed Tymoshenko.

quote
As for one of the leaders of the war party in Kiev, Merkel has privately and publicly endorsed every claim of Yulia Tymoshenko, promoting her release from prison and protecting her campaigns for war against Russia, even though – according to the high-level German source – “they [Chancellery, Foreign Ministry] have known for years that [Tymoshenko] was a crook.”
endquote

There is a lot more detail Tymoshenko's corruption and Merkel's rescue here:

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/02/john-helmer-the-political-motivation-of-chancellor-merkels-embrace-of-yulia-tymoshenko-and-war.html

(republished from John Helmer's website, includes a great cartoon worth viewing)

If you want more sources for this story,google
"Merkel, Tymoshenko, prison"

[Aug 14, 2019] Neocon Joe Biden and the USA involvement in Ukraine

Add to this his involvement in Ukraine...
Notable quotes:
"... “It would be contrary to our interests to give Moscow the impression,” Nixon wrote, “that we are prepared to help only as long as Russia remains on its knees. Russia is a great country that deserves to be treated with appropriate respect.” ..."
"... Nixon was either lying or was outright delusional. The collective West can not operate in terms of friendship. The only motive behind any western foreign policy has always been to gain absolute power with no limits or borders. It happens that Russia is viewed as the only nation that can stop that western culture of domination and offer a multi polar world order, respected national sovereignty and mutual trust. Therefore the animosity towards Russia is inevitable, no matter what, as long as Russia exists. Any other view is a sort of wishful thinking. ..."
"... The constantly escalated lie of America about Russia's aggression is needed to knock out 2% of the military budget from satellites for the purchase of actually American weapons, to support the American military industrial complex. ..."
"... Russia enjoys escalation dominance in its own sphere, all the way up to the use of nukes in defense. America cannot possibly justify using that same kind of escalation, which means America will be the first to blink and then withdraw. ..."
Aug 13, 2019 | nationalinterest.org

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton openly sided with opposition groups in Russia and expressed sympathy with mass anti-government demonstrations whose organizers made no secret of their objective to remove Putin from power. In March 2011, Vice President Joe Biden told Russian opposition leaders that it would be "bad for the country and for himself" if Putin attempted to run for president the following year, according to the later murdered Putin critic Boris Nemtsov. I have spoken with people who were present at Biden's meeting with the Russian opposition, and there was no question in their mind that Biden fully intended to pressure Putin not to run again. Biden and Clinton were not acting out of turn; the Obama administration put its money where its mouth was, giving millions of dollars to political opposition groups in Russia. Today, leading Democrats are demanding that Russia refrain from intervening in the 2020 elections, but what implications do such demands have for America's own willingness to take sides in Russian political disputes?

... ... ..

Last but not least, we must be willing to be clear that we are not beholden to shaping American policy exclusively to align with the whims of our allies. Relationships between former iron curtain states are remarkably complex and fraught with centuries of painful history, making them prone to conflict with one another. It is precisely these parochial European conflicts which George Washington strongly advised against being involved in, stating in his farewell address that America should be wary of entangling, "our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice."

WASHINGTON ALSO spoke about those, "ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens," who become so enamored with the causes of their favorite countries that they not only lose perspective of American interests, but are even prepared to accuse those who disagree with them of a lack of patriotism and, in modern times, of being a Putin lackey. One does not need to be a supporter of President Trump to understand that these pseudo-patriots do not serve American interests or American values well. In April 2019, 73 percent of the Ukrainian people rejected President Petro Poroshenko, who ran on a nationalist, anti-Russian platform. While few American and European experts were willing to acknowledge that the Poroshenko government was corrupt, inept, and, according to Ukrainian media, willing to use money to influence the American political process, they were suddenly willing to make such pronouncements as soon as the election results were solidified. America cannot allow the designation of an "ally" to make any states immune from disagreement or criticism. When the stakes are as high as nuclear war, America cannot afford to conduct foreign policy based on the whims of its domestic constituencies or the sentiments of those very "deluded" citizens about whom Washington warned.

Great American presidents of the past knew how to be loyal allies, but to do it in a calibrated and deliberative fashion. President Dwight D. Eisenhower fully understood the importance of the transatlantic alliance, having fought to preserve it in World War II, yet in 1956 he refused to support Britain and France during the Suez Crisis when doing so went against America’s national interest. Similarly, despite being a genuine friend to Israel, Ronald Reagan was willing to condemn it for going overboard in Lebanon in 1982. But today, to suggest that America is not obliged to support with blood and treasure the actions of our allies and friends is considered morally unacceptable. That is why whenever Baltic states, Georgia and Ukraine have any disagreement with Russia, America automatically denounces Russia as the aggressor, regardless of the historical background, geopolitical context, and even, as in the case of Russia’s war with Georgia in 2008, who attacked whose troops first.

America and Russia appear unlikely to resolve their hostilities any time soon. America has a long tradition of standing tall and being prepared to be ruthless in the defense of its interests, but also in being careful not to unnecessarily entangle itself in the conflicts of others. If the United States starts treating Putin’s Russia like it is Hitler’s Germany, moves from supporting Ukrainian and Georgian sovereignty to encouraging these states to conduct hostile policies towards Moscow, and strengthens NATO’s military position in the Baltics, Russia may feel confronted by an existential threat.

Dimitri K. Simes, publisher and CEO of the National Interest, is president of the Center for the National Interest.


minsredmash10 hours ago • edited ,

“It would be contrary to our interests to give Moscow the impression,” Nixon wrote, “that we are prepared to help only as long as Russia remains on its knees. Russia is a great country that deserves to be treated with appropriate respect.”

Nixon was either lying or was outright delusional. The collective West can not operate in terms of friendship. The only motive behind any western foreign policy has always been to gain absolute power with no limits or borders. It happens that Russia is viewed as the only nation that can stop that western culture of domination and offer a multi polar world order, respected national sovereignty and mutual trust. Therefore the animosity towards Russia is inevitable, no matter what, as long as Russia exists. Any other view is a sort of wishful thinking.

To save us all from the nuclear catastrophe it is important to remember what Putin once said:

""We are not interested in the world without Russia" (c)

Just don't make sudden moves.

Лайм Баюнa day ago ,

The constantly escalated lie of America about Russia's aggression is needed to knock out 2% of the military budget from satellites for the purchase of actually American weapons, to support the American military industrial complex. This lie began with the already proven European aggression of Georgia against South Ossetia. And the RETURN of the Crimea during the anarchy arranged by America coup in Ukraine. America uses Goebbels propaganda.

Kevin Blankinshipa day ago ,

Part of the problem is that the establishment Republicans got heady beginning in the early 1990s, thinking that America is omnipotent and can always get its way in the world. Nowhere was this sentiment stronger than the business elite. This arrogance continues in our foreign policy with those like John Bolton who figure that firepower is always the answer. The good news is that this sentiment peaked during the George W. Bush years, when Iraq taught the lesson that solutions are often not quick-and-easy.

Volodimir2 days ago ,

I think the proper title of the article should be "Russia continue to be delusional about Ukraine"

Dimitri's is the perfect example of how Russian propaganda wants to cast events in the Ukraine: " In April 2019, 73 percent of the Ukrainian people rejected President Petro Poroshenko, who ran on a nationalist, anti-Russian platform "

While it is obvious Ukrainians showed Poroshenko the location of the exit door, the main reason was not his so-called anti-Russian nationalistic platform, but corruption and inability to accelerate necessary reforms.

If the resentment against so called nationalism and anti-Russian policies were material, then the pro-Russian block will have significantly more votes than it managed to gain.

Dmitri here follows Russian dogma and equates pro Ukrainian to anti Russian. Any move in Ukraine to advance Ukrainian language, history and culture - in a sense a sort of affirmative action policy - equates to anti Russian nationalism.

And this delusion needed to be fixed in order for Russia to be able to start moving back towards normalcy in relationship with its neighbors.

VadimKharichkov Volodimira day ago ,

Volo, you don't know how public perception works - if you pour dirt on somebody who has wide respect and sound reputation - it backfires. By badmouthing Dimitri Simes you basically show how foolish you are. You may not feel like it in your little make-believe Ukranian banderite world - but this is how it is in reality.

Besides, Volo, we both know you're Poroshenko supporter and you supported him because of his nationalistic anti-Russian stance. So why pretend he's out because he's inefficient manager? Also, there is a so-called Fallacy of a Single Cause, which you seem to follow. Obviously, there were many reasons for Poroshenko's fall, yet chief among them being ultra-nationalism and administrative ineptitude

Yeap, educate yourself on the list of logical fallacies . As I've said, I'm glad I'm a good influence on you

Gary Sellars Volodimir2 days ago ,

"And this delusion needed to be fixed in order for Russia to be able to start moving back towards normalcy in relationship with its neighbors."

You can't have normalcy when Ukraine is still ruled on the streets by armed facist ultra-nationalist scumbags. Once these criminals are disarmed and jailed awaiting trial then normalcy will have a chance.

maxime begin Gary Sellarsa day ago ,

Seriously?! You really not see the reality... you swallow everything Putin told you... take time and learn a bit about history, stop to be the little good soldier and became a human!

Gary Sellars maxime begin19 hours ago ,

Yes, seriously. The armed nationalists are a damngerous force in Ukraine and the elected politicans are quite rightly scared of these radicals. People die in Ukraine if they speak out openly against the Nationalist militants, ask Oles Buzina... oh wait, we can't cuz they killed him.

Speaking out against the Ukro nationalists in 2019 is like speaking out against the Russian mafia in the 90s and 00s. It's a great way to get yourself killed.

Sean.McGivens Gary Sellars2 days ago ,

"Russia’s grievances, real or imagined, are not justifications for the United States abandoning the pursuit of its own interest and allowing Russian domination of Eurasia.

But the United States has no legitimate interests in the former Soviet Union. For the US to think otherwise is to be power drunk and blinded by imperial greed.

It scares to me see that so many of my ignorant countrymen in America seem to have a sense of manifest destiny regarding the former Soviet land mass. This myopic America policy is going to lead to disaster for the US. That's because Russia enjoys escalation dominance in its own sphere, all the way up to the use of nukes in defense. America cannot possibly justify using that same kind of escalation, which means America will be the first to blink and then withdraw.

Volodimir Sean.McGivens2 days ago • edited ,

" That's why Ukraine must absolutely ... "
It is amusing how Russians automatically assume authority to boss other people around.

Gary Sellars Volodimir2 days ago ,

It is amusing how Banderites always blame others for their own failures and utter irrelevance. You violently siezed Ukraine and proceeded to make a slaughterhouse and a basket-case out of her, but its always someone elses fault... what a good little empty-headed stormtrooper for Empire you are....

Gary Sellars2 days ago • edited ,

The author likes to write about US "defense of its interests" but what about when those "interests" are in direct opposition to the real interests of the nations and peoples in those distant lands? Why should the self-declared and often selfish desires of the US elites be used as justification for political, financial or outright military aggression? Are we really going to accept law-of-the-jungle in global relations where the strong & wealthy get to attack the weak & impoverished simply because doing so is ostensibly in their "interests"? A burglar ransacks your house while you're out and kills your dog in the process cuz its in his "interest', but that doesn't make it OK.

Somewhere we need to accept that morality and ethics should be the primary guide as to how we interact with others. Unfortunately the US elites have long since abandoned any such constraints or considerations as they aren't really compatible with building a global hegemony and crushing all resistance to their rule.

Gary Sellars3 days ago • edited ,

"Putin is not blindly militaristic, but always considers the consequences of his actions, even if he has not always managed to anticipate them correctly (as was the case with Russian interference in U.S. elections)."

"Russia’s interference in the American political process was serious and real"

Gimmee a break.... Russian "interference".... The author feels the need to insert this debunked shibboleth into his article? Surely there isn't a free-thinking individual alive who still belives this hogwash?

katzen777 Jesse Morelanda day ago ,

Yeah, he did. Biden bragged about it. Stop this "Russia's paranoia" nonsense, you keep on clinging to it until it's proven to be truth in some memoir of an ex-cia chief or US offical. Just like with NATO not expanding that was portrayed as a myth until it appeared they really promised it to Gorbachev.

Radical Pragmatist Jesse Moreland3 days ago ,

America and its European allies supported the ousting of Yanukovych in 2014

It was a lot more than simple "support". The U.S., led by State Department Nitwit Vulgarian Victoria Nuland and her barrel of CIA monkeys directly organized and enabled the Maidan coup debacle. All the U.S. had to do was wait for the next presidential election in Ukraine. But no, the Global Cop Gorilla had to stick its fat greasy thumb into someone else's soup yet again.

And the Russians knew that following the ham-fisted coup the U.S. would direct its new puppet President in Ukraine to eject them from their historic naval base in Sevastopol that Russia had occupied for more than 200 years. Ironically, no U.S. facilitated coup, no annexation of Crimea.

The Global Cop Gorilla wrecks everything that it touches. The one perverse benefit of the Trump presidency is that U.S. foreign policy pathology is now so visible to the rest of the planet

mal Sergey3 days ago ,

"At the next revolution, the present rulers would either give up power peacefully or follow the fate of Chaushesqu or Qaddafi."

You mean Russians want NATO to bomb Moscow so that Russian people could get the honor of being sold on the slave markets like Libyan people are today? https://www.reuters.com/art...

Qaddafi is indeed a cautionary tale, just not the one you think it is.

[Aug 13, 2019] Delusions About Russia by Dimitri K. Simes

Ukraine was a litmus test as for US relations with Russia. From that point for Russia the USA represent an eminent threat for the integrity of the country. In other words the most dangerous adversary which wants to put Russia on its knees by whatever means possible, although Putin politically and diplomatically calls it partner.
And the role Dick Cheney protégé Victoria Nuland played in this tragic for both countries (as well as Ukraine) event still need to be clearly analyzed.
It is now clear that Nuland and her neocon fringes in Obama administration sawed dragon teeth into very fertile ground...
Notable quotes:
"... "It would be contrary to our interests to give Moscow the impression," Nixon wrote, "that we are prepared to help only as long as Russia remains on its knees. ..."
"... As with every divorce, there are contrasting narratives about who bears what responsibility for the dissolution of this once promising relationship. However, it is clear that America's foreign policy establishment, including members of both Congress and the Trump administration, is currently plagued by the tension between its habitual desire to assume the worst of Russia and its simultaneous reluctance to respond to the magnitude of Moscow's challenge in a serious fashion. ..."
"... The same experts who are terrified of confrontation with North Korea, with its rudimentary nuclear arsenal, or Iran, which has no nuclear arsenal at all, take a remarkably cavalier approach towards the prospect of a clash with Russia. ..."
"... It also runs the risk of inadvertently creating a new danger in the form of providing additional incentives for Moscow and Beijing to cooperate with each other against America. As a recent Pentagon white paper observed, Russian president Vladimir Putin could try to play the "China card" to the detriment of America. ..."
Aug 13, 2019 | nationalinterest.org

TWENTY-SIX years ago at a national policy conference in Los Angeles co-hosted by his foundation, Richard M. Nixon observed that one of America's most fundamental foreign policy objectives was to build a new international order after the collapse of the Soviet Union which included the newly-democratic Russia as a partner. He stated,

In discussing Russia, it is first necessary to dispel a myth. The Russians did not lose the Cold War. The Communists did. The United States and our allies played a crucial role in containing communism and in rolling it back, but it was democratic Russia that gave the knockout blow to communism on December 14th in 1991. So therefore, we should treat Russia today not as a defeated enemy but as an ally and a friend who joined with us in defeating communism in Russia.

Nixon warned that if Russia's experiment with democracy and association with the West were to fail, Russia could fall victim to, "a more authoritarian, aggressive nationalism, which, shorn of the failed faith of communism, might be an even greater threat to the West than the old Soviet totalitarianism."

Subsequently, in the book Beyond Peace , which served as the last political message of his life, Nixon made a strong case that, while ending the Cold War on American terms was a historic accomplishment, the lasting legacy of this feat would be determined by America's success in incorporating Russia into the community of democratic free market nations. "It would be contrary to our interests to give Moscow the impression," Nixon wrote, "that we are prepared to help only as long as Russia remains on its knees. Russia is a great country that deserves to be treated with appropriate respect." Nixon's observations were prophetic. They make it clear that the turn that contemporary events have taken was not inevitable even if it was foreseeable. Nixon not only sought reconciliation with Russia, but was also convinced that given sufficient foresight and diplomatic tact Washington could achieve it.

TODAY, IT can be stated with certainty that America has failed at this task. America's new strategic doctrine views Russia as a major threat to the United States due to its military prowess, hybrid warfare capabilities, and global drive to undermine the American-led liberal world order. As with every divorce, there are contrasting narratives about who bears what responsibility for the dissolution of this once promising relationship. However, it is clear that America's foreign policy establishment, including members of both Congress and the Trump administration, is currently plagued by the tension between its habitual desire to assume the worst of Russia and its simultaneous reluctance to respond to the magnitude of Moscow's challenge in a serious fashion.

When I hear media pundits and members of Congress describe Russia as a major adversary and, at the same time, speak and act as though America is immune to the threat posed by the Russian military, I often wonder whether they know something that I do not. The same experts who are terrified of confrontation with North Korea, with its rudimentary nuclear arsenal, or Iran, which has no nuclear arsenal at all, take a remarkably cavalier approach towards the prospect of a clash with Russia. While this view is common among the national security establishment, it reflects a serious misunderstanding of Russia's military strength, its national character and, above all, the way its history continues to shape its foreign policy decisions. It also runs the risk of inadvertently creating a new danger in the form of providing additional incentives for Moscow and Beijing to cooperate with each other against America. As a recent Pentagon white paper observed, Russian president Vladimir Putin could try to play the "China card" to the detriment of America.

In hindsight, it is clear that the post-Soviet political order in Eastern Europe was never properly settled by Russia and the West, and that the agreements that emerged after the Cold War were too ambiguous to offer any real clarity. For instance, the 1994 Budapest Agreement, which both Russia and the United States signed, guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine, but also promised the protection of Ukrainian sovereignty, which Russia perceived as a commitment from the West not to interfere in Ukraine's internal political affairs. Therefore, when America and its European allies supported the ousting of Yanukovych in 2014, Russia viewed this as illegal Western interference, which provided Moscow with both the opportunity and the right to defend its interests in Crimea and Donbass.

In recent years, Putin has unveiled his Avangard hypersonic ICBM system and new RS-28 Sarmat heavy ballistic missile (both of which are allegedly capable of overcoming any U.S./NATO missile defenses), and warned that, if push comes to shove, Russia is prepared to stand against a military challenge from the West even if doing so meant escalating to nuclear war. These warnings were coupled with the deployment of new brigades to Ukraine's borders starting in 2014 and major improvements of Russia's military capabilities near the Baltic region. Yet again, these moves were treated as something requiring a vigorous response, but ultimately not increasing the risk of a military clash. NATO viewed its commitment to restraint as self-evident, so why would the Kremlin fear Western aggression? And if so, why would anybody seriously fear a nuclear confrontation between Russia and the West?

... ... ...

UNFORTUNATELY, THE threat of unintentional conflict escalation is not a hypothetical one. Russian and American troops often operate in the same areas of combat in Syria, and U.S. combat aircraft and personnel were involved in a devastating attack on Russian paramilitaries in 2018. In that particular case, Russia gave no advanced warning that Russian fighters were involved, and later downplayed the incident by noting the fundamental difference between the death of Russian private military contractors and an attack against its regular forces. But many experts on both sides privately acknowledge that this incident was a close call that easily could have resulted in rapid escalation. With more and more NATO ships and planes operating in close proximity to Russian territory and their Russian counterparts boldly challenging them to prove their own determination, the potential for a clash in the air or on the seas is becoming more and more real. Yet Congress has had no meaningful discussions about how the sinking of one ship or downing of one plane could result in accidental nuclear war between Russia and the United States.

... ... ...

This shift was marked by the growing disillusionment with both the West and democracy that became prevalent during the end of the Yeltsin era after the bitter experience of Russia's economic demise and NATO’s intervention in Yugoslavia. Tsipko writes, “I agree with those who believe that it is the very national character that is to some extent the cause of the militarization of conscience.” He adds, “It is important to understand that militarization of conscience brings the killing of the instinct of self-preservation. It is not just expecting death, but creating a cult of death, making it sacred.”

... ... ...

Nonetheless, Tsipko’s observations reveal much about how Russia might respond to a confrontation with America and its allies. If the survival of the country, dignity of the Russian civilization and, yes, legitimacy of the regime are at stake, Russia may be prepared to accept much higher risks and absorb much greater losses than would be acceptable to Western democracies.

Russia’s sense of isolation and victimhood are also rooted in an understanding of the collapse of the Soviet Union that differs wildly from the common Western narrative. Many Russians view their country as a modern equivalent of Weimar Germany, dismembered by victorious powers who are responsible for the economic catastrophe, human suffering and great humiliation of the Russian people. Most Russian citizens identify with Putin’s statement that, “the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” and believe that, “for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.” While neither Putin nor the majority of Russians view the recreation of the USSR as either feasible or desirable, the wounds of the Soviet collapse clearly remain quite fresh and continue to influence attitudes towards the West.

... ... ...

Accordingly, most Russians deeply resented being treated as a defeated country by the West. After the Cold War, Russians anticipated that they would be viewed not as a vanquished adversary, but instead as a courageous ally who played an indispensable role in destroying the Soviet bloc to achieve a common victory in the Cold War. By repeatedly siding against Moscow in each of its post-Cold War disputes with its new neighbors, the West treated Russia like a defeated state that had accepted an unconditional surrender and was now trying, in disregard of its legal obligations, to establish hegemony over its neighbors. The Russian political elites, initially strongly pro-Western, felt betrayed and offended. They saw a diktat from the West.

Many Russians also hold that insidious actions by Western powers greatly contributed to the Soviet collapse. There is very little evidence to support this claim; as late as August 1991, President George H.W. Bush argued against Ukraine’s seeking full independence, stating that “Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aide those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred.” Yet the Russian political class has increasingly persuaded itself that its country was intentionally destroyed by Western powers, masquerading as friends of the USSR during perestroika while secretly attempting to sabotage the Soviet state. It is through the prism of those beliefs that one must look to understand how Russia might act in the event of a military confrontation with the West.

[Aug 13, 2019] I woke up when Vicky Nuland blessed our Kiev coup in 2014 with "F..k the EU".

Aug 13, 2019 | www.unz.com

Robjil , says: August 13, 2019 at 10:42 am GMT

@niteranger I woke up when Vicky Nuland blessed our Kiev coup in 2014 with "F..k the EU".

[Aug 12, 2019] Bruce Ohr 302s by Larry C Johnson - Sic Semper Tyrannis

Highly recommended!
That suggest that FBI actions were influenced by Obama administration and CIA to much greater expent thatn we assuned.
Notable quotes:
"... It may be that much of the dossier was created out of whole cloth by Nellie Ohr who was tasked to create a narrative that jibed with Simpson's political objectives. ..."
"... The ukraine is probably behind a great deal of the "info" the democrats and fib used.. ..."
Aug 12, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

In reviewing these 302s there are some salient points I want to bring to your attention.

First, Christopher Steele was terminated as an FBI Confidential Human Source at the end of September 2016 for leaking to the press. That should have put an end to the relationship. Instead, the FBI starts using Bruce Ohr, the number four guy at the Department of Justice, as a cutout. Absolutely no justification for this kind of behavior by the FBI. It is, at a minimum, unethical and creates a real problem if any of the info collected from Ohr was to be used in a court proceeding. Something known as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" would kick in and the so-called evidence proffered by Ohr would be inadmissible or unusable because of Steele's previous lies to the FBI.

Second, Glenn Simpson played a huge role in helping spread anti-Trump propaganda generated by Steele. In fact, it was Simpson's insistence on Steele speaking with the press that got Steele terminated as an FBI source.

Third, the FBI knew by mid-December 2016 that Bruce Ohr's wife, Nellie, was working with Simpson and Steele. This too should have set off alarm bells about the potential conflicts of interest and unethical conduct.

Fourth, evidence used ultimately against Paul Manafort came from Nellie Ohr. If this was not disclosed to Manafort's attorney's there is a likely Brady violation, which bolster's Manafort's prospects for an appeal.

Fifth, Steele and Simpson made several claims of fact about Russia ties to the Trump campaign that were later proven to be false. For example, stating that Michael Cohen was in Prague meeting the Russians. Important to note that Christopher Steele produced the final report of the so-called dossier bearing his name on 13 December 2016 yet this information was "passed" to Ohr one day prior to the date on the report.

Sixth, the "debriefing" of Ohr on 12 December 2016 also provided the foundation for going after Marina Butina. (See Sara Carter's excellent update on this case here ). The false information from Steele/Simpson via Bruce Ohr became the pretext for launching an investigation of Butina, who was working for a wealthy Russian banker, Alexander Torshin. This too turns out to have been a fabrication. I believe this provides Butina's attorneys more ammunition for arguing prosecutorial misconduct and failure to provide critical Brady material.

Seventh, Ohr's report that Simpson and Steele were communicating with the State Department, including Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland and Kathleen Kavalec makes it clear that State Department was used as a front to pass on info from the questionable Steele Dossier. This information was used in the FISA warrant and provided a seemingly reliable justification for spying on Carter Page (see the Page FISA warrant here .)

And finally, Fusion GPS, which was hired on behalf of the Clinton Campaign, was regularly communicating and coordinating with Obama's Department of Justice and Department of State. This was a complete abuse of power.

Now, here is the summary of the 302s:

11/22/2016 (entered on 12/19/2006)

Ohr met with Steele in 2007 (not sure of date) at a conference.

July 30, 2016 Steele met Ohr for breakfast. Steele claimed Carter Page had met with Russian Sechin at a conference.

States that Glenn Simpson hired Steele and Ohr's wife to dig up dirt on Trump's connections to Russia.

Noted that reporting was going to the Clinton Campaign, Jonathan Winer and the FBI.

Ohr met with Steele in late September and was told about Alfa Bank ties to Trump and the Sergei Millian organization.

Noted that Steele was desperate to stop Trump and to thwart the Kremlin.

Ohr knew that Glenn Simpson and "others" were meeting with Victoria Nuland.

12/05/2016 (entered on 12/19/2016) (drafted on 12/12/2016)

Glenn Simpson directed Christopher Steele to speak to the press, including David Corn at Mother Jones.

Ohr provided FBI info on Manafort Chronology prepared by his wife.

12/12/2016 (entered on 12/19/2016) (Drafted on 12/14/2016)

Ohr states, per Simpson, that Cohen replaced Manafort and Page as the contact with the Russians.

Says that Cohen met with Russians in Prague.

Claims that Torshin is a Russian mobster and is trying to infiltrate the NRA and was pushing money to Trump.

Simpson opined that Sergei Millian was an SVR officer and a link to Trump.

12/20/2016 (entered on 12/27/2016)

Thumb drive with Nelly Ohr's research passed to FBI.

1/23/2017 (entered on 1/31/2017) (drafted on 1/25/2017)

Simpson tells Ohr a source will be outed in the coming days.

Steele claims he met with a McCain staffer prior to October 2016

1/25/017 (entered on 1/27/2017)

Ohr spoke with Steele on 25 January 2017.

1/27/2017 (entered on 1/27/2017)

Steele told Ohr he wanted to keep lines of communication open.

02/06/2017 (entered on 02/08/2017)

Ohr contacted by Steele via What'sApp on 31 January 2017. Was reacting to firing of Sally Yates. Worried that if Ohr got fired he would have no one to talk to.

"Interviewing agents asked Ohr to ask Steele if he would be comfortable getting the name of an FBI agent."

Ohr reminded agents that Steele had spoken several times prior to 2016 Presidential election with Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Kathleen Kavalec. Ohr identified one of the sources for Steele's report as a Ukranian.

02/14/2017 (entered on 02/15/2017)

Ohr tells FBI about Steele's concerns about his business. Identifies other lawyer (name blacked out) he is working with. Steele is preparing a proposal to re-establish his business releationship with the FBI.

05/08/2017 (entered on 05/10/2017)

Steele tells Ohr that he is worried about Comey's upcoming testimony. Ohr tells Steele what Comey will say and Steele is "happy."

Ohr said that Glenn Simpson would be visiting Steele soon.

Jonathan Winer was bringing a letter to Steele.


walrus , 11 August 2019 at 04:43 PM

this is treason.
PRC90 , 11 August 2019 at 08:24 PM
As an aside, note the similarities between Steele and Downer. Both carried some imprimatur of credibility based on prior government service, and popped up from no where and returned to relative obscurity after producing a document that was able to be immediately misused by others for the same purpose.

I'd wondered why anyone would want to involve Downer in these events, the man is a moron. However, one of his greatest strengths is producing wonderful well written reports, and to that extent would appear to have been chosen well.

confusedponderer , 12 August 2019 at 05:52 AM
It is, however despicable the whole story is, suggesting - and in its own way entertaining - that apparently the experienced gutter lady "Eff the EU" Nuland was also involved, probably bringing in her ... regime change experience aquired in the Ukraine.

I wonder, did she ever say "Eff the Orange Man too"? Alas. Either way, more interesting to me is whether she also handed out cookies to Steel and/or Ohr?

https://orf.at/static/images/site/news/20131250/ukraine_klitschko_usa_body_a.4532409.jpg

As far as financial price of the Ohr & Steel operation goes, compared to the 5+ billion that were according to Nuland proudly poured into Ukraine to get Maidan and backstab Janukowytsch, hiring Steel to backstab somebody else - Trump - was probably way cheaper - i.e. 'however illegal, it was more economic'.

That said, I detested Nuland well before this story for her Maidan stuntery and the "Eff the EU" arrogance, but then, she really made it easy even for an at time even more benevolent observer.

Thanks for sharing and elaborating.

Patrick Armstrong , 12 August 2019 at 08:48 AM
But the big question that I would be interested to get opinions on is this:
when is all this stuff going to be revealed in a way that not even the readers of the WaPo NYT et al can deny thet the entire Russia collusion/interference story is false from beginning to end?

The longer the Russia-interfered-in-our-election-and-everybody-else's lie is perpetrated, the closer we all get to nuclear annihilation. So it's a matter of some importance.

Any ideas?
One that occurs to me is that nothing will happen -- it will all dribble out over such a long time that nothing will ever be ever dramatic and simple enough to make an effect.

My other thought is that Trump & Co wants the big explosive revelations to hit the street next Mar/Apr so as to destroy the Dems in 2020.

But many of us have known the general outline of the conspiracy for a couple of years, but nothing big ever hits the street and the lies get dug in a little deeper every day that they're not exploded.

turcopolier , 12 August 2019 at 09:02 AM
PA

Unless there are a lot of indictments none of this will matter.

plantman , 12 August 2019 at 11:39 AM
So, state department honchos--Victoria Nuland, Kavalec and Sally Yates (DOJ)--all had some knowledge of what was going on, right? And so did national security advisor Susan Rice.

Doesn't that prove that Obama must have been in the loop?

I think it does.

Second, how much of Nellie Ohr's russia research actually ended up in the steele dossier? I think that it is very unlikely that Chris Steele maintained his sketchy connections in Russia after the seismic political changes in the early 2000s. It may be that much of the dossier was created out of whole cloth by Nellie Ohr who was tasked to create a narrative that jibed with Simpson's political objectives.

notamusedobserver -> plantman... , 12 August 2019 at 04:42 PM
The ukraine is probably behind a great deal of the "info" the democrats and fib used..

[Aug 12, 2019] Nuland involvement in creating Russiagate narrative and the color revolution against Trump

State Department was a real neocon rats nest, no question about it.
Notable quotes:
"... It is, however despicable the whole story is, suggesting - and in its own way entertaining - that apparently the experienced gutter lady "Eff the EU" Nuland was also involved, probably bringing in her ... regime change experience acquired in the Ukraine. ..."
"... The longer the Russia-interfered-in-our-election-and-everybody-else's lie is perpetrated, the closer we all get to nuclear annihilation. So it's a matter of some importance. ..."
"... The ukraine is probably behind a great deal of the "info" the democrats and fib used.. ..."
Aug 12, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

confusedponderer , 12 August 2019 at 0 5:52 AM

It is, however despicable the whole story is, suggesting - and in its own way entertaining - that apparently the experienced gutter lady "Eff the EU" Nuland was also involved, probably bringing in her ... regime change experience acquired in the Ukraine.

I wonder, did she ever say "Eff the Orange Man too"? Alas. Either way, more interesting to me is whether she also handed out cookies to Steel and/or Ohr?

https://orf.at/static/images/site/news/20131250/ukraine_klitschko_usa_body_a.4532409.jpg

As far as financial price of the Ohr & Steel operation goes, compared to the 5+ billion that were according to Nuland proudly poured into Ukraine to get Maidan and backstab Janukowytsch, hiring Steel to backstab somebody else - Trump - was probably way cheaper - i.e. 'however illegal, it was more economic'.

That said, I detested Nuland well before this story for her Maidan stuntery and the "Eff the EU" arrogance, but then, she really made it easy even for an at time even more benevolent observer.

Thanks for sharing and elaborating.

Patrick Armstrong , 12 August 2019 at 08:48 AM
But the big question that I would be interested to get opinions on is this:
when is all this stuff going to be revealed in a way that not even the readers of the WaPo NYT et al can deny thet the entire Russia collusion/interference story is false from beginning to end?

The longer the Russia-interfered-in-our-election-and-everybody-else's lie is perpetrated, the closer we all get to nuclear annihilation. So it's a matter of some importance.

Any ideas? One that occurs to me is that nothing will happen -- it will all dribble out over such a long time that nothing will ever be ever dramatic and simple enough to make an effect.

My other thought is that Trump & Co wants the big explosive revelations to hit the street next Mar/Apr so as to destroy the Dems in 2020.

But many of us have known the general outline of the conspiracy for a couple of years, but nothing big ever hits the street and the lies get dug in a little deeper every day that they're not exploded.

notamusedobserver -> plantman... , 12 August 2019 at 08:48 AM
The ukraine is probably behind a great deal of the "info" the democrats and fib used..

[Aug 07, 2019] Ukraine ex-president Poroshenko summoned for questioning

Jul 11, 2019 | news.yahoo.com

KIEV (Reuters) - Detectives from Ukraine's state investigation bureau have summoned former president Petro Poroshenko for questioning, the bureau said on Thursday.

"We confirmed that he will be questioned," a bureau spokesman said. He declined to give a reason for the questioning, which will take place on July 17. A spokeswoman for Poroshenko had no comment but said one might be available later.


James, 26 days ago

I am in Ukraine every year and all people know that Poroshenko used the war to make money. He created companies that were then used by the Government to buy military equipment and everyone knows this and waited for the opportunity to have him voted out. Most people here want only to have a stable government that works for the people, but president after president they put their hope in has only turned out to become wealthy at the expense of the people.

There is hope that the new president will enact "real" reforms and government acquisition reform that gives all businesses an fair opportunity to compete for work.

Poroshenko never got rid of the corrupt judicial officials that enabled crooks to keep doing what they were doing.

James, 26 days ago

One has to wonder which Western/NATO intelligence agency Poroshenko represented. It was not for the benefit of representing Ukraine or Russia that is for sure.

Bamboo, 26 days ago

Gee. It looks like the USA has lost its puppet regime. Is Joe Biden's son still getting a piece of the Ukrainian Pie?

Peter, 26 days ago

Here's a question for poroshenko. What happened to the millions the US gave him to help the people of his country?

THE AMERICANO, 26 days ago

And a very nice arrest warrant will magically appear out of no where IF he shows up.

David, 26 days ago

I'm wondering if poroshenko was smart enough to request an american passport as a part of compensation for pushing the country into the democracy?

26 days ago

Poroshenko is a failure of the West meddling in another country's affair for the sole purpose of hurting Russia.

26 days ago

A person who led Ukraine to prosperity, fighter with corruption, liberator from Russia, and he is being questioned? How come? :-) I hope you get the sarcasm.

[Aug 07, 2019] Poroshenko asked the USA help in fighting criminal cases against him in Ukraine

Notable quotes:
"... Poroshenko has previously been involved in eleven criminal cases, in particular, as regards his abuse of power and his official position in the distribution of posts in "Tsentrenergo", his treason in connection with the incident in the Kerch Strait, his usurpation of judicial power and his misappropriation of the TV channel "Direct", his falsification of documents in the formation of Deputy factions in 2016, and his illegal appointment of a government, and the seizure of power. ..."
"... In addition, as a witness, he was questioned about civilian deaths during the Euromaidan protests in 2014. ..."
"... I could see them having a quiet word with Zelenskiy, maybe leave the old man out of it, what do you say? But Washington is already accused – with substantial justification, I would say – of running the show in Ukraine, and there are limits to how much obvious interfering it can do; especially after Biden's bragging about getting the state prosecutor fired. ..."
Aug 07, 2019 | thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com

Moscow Exile, July 31, 2019 at 9:08 pm

Порошенко попросил у США помощи с уголовными делами на Украине, пишут СМИ

Poroshenko has asked the US for help with criminal cases in the Ukraine, writes media
05:31
MOSCOW, 1 Jul – RIA Novosti.
The former President of the Ukraine Petro Poroshenko is in Istanbul, where he has turned to American companies to lobby for protection from criminal cases, reports " Ukraine News " with reference to sources.

It has been noted that in the Ukraine changes have been made as regards the criminal cases against Poroshenko. In particular, in May 2019, the former-president's lawyer Igor Golovan stated that these criminal cases would not entail any legal consequences, but now Poroshenko's entourage realizes that the criminal prosecution of the former president has noticeably intensified and may have consequences.

Therefore, according to the newspaper, in Turkey Poroshenko has started to lobbying U.S. companies, in particular, the BGR group, for assistance in resolving these cases.

"He is well aware that everything that happens in the RRG (State Bureau of investigation – trans. ed.) is taken very seriously, and he intends to defend himself against attacks. He can, for example, be expecting public support in Washington if there is an attempt made to arrest him", said the source.

In addition, the publication cites the words of Ukrainian political scientist Alexei Yakubin, who has noted that Poroshenko could repeat the "Saakashvili scenario".

"For example, he'll leave for treatment in London, where part of his entourage has entrenched itself. But this model complicates the public protection of his business assets within the country, which assets might be seized", he said.

The case against Poroshenko

Poroshenko has previously been involved in eleven criminal cases, in particular, as regards his abuse of power and his official position in the distribution of posts in "Tsentrenergo", his treason in connection with the incident in the Kerch Strait, his usurpation of judicial power and his misappropriation of the TV channel "Direct", his falsification of documents in the formation of Deputy factions in 2016, and his illegal appointment of a government, and the seizure of power.

In addition, as a witness, he was questioned about civilian deaths during the Euromaidan protests in 2014.

Poroshenko himself, speaking at the party congress of "European Business", said that he is responsible only before the Ukrainian people and is not afraid of persecution.

Mark Chapman August 1, 2019 at 2:44 am
Quite right, old man; keep your chin up. I daresay they're staying in quite prestigious digs in Istanbul, as befits visiting royalty. He seems to be labouring under a misapprehension that he is valuable somehow to Washington, whereas that would only be true if Washington were unwilling to work with Zelenskiy, and wanted him out of the way.

So far as I can see, Washington is quite satisfied with Zelenskiy, while the people would not countenance a Poroshenko return. So he's not really much use, is he? Especially if the USA wishes to publicly support Zelenskiy's supposed battle with official corruption.

I could see them having a quiet word with Zelenskiy, maybe leave the old man out of it, what do you say? But Washington is already accused – with substantial justification, I would say – of running the show in Ukraine, and there are limits to how much obvious interfering it can do; especially after Biden's bragging about getting the state prosecutor fired.

Mark Chapman August 1, 2019 at 5:34 pm
Yes, I was sort of getting at the probability that Clan Poroshenko is just installed in a very nice hotel. I doubt he will want to be plunking down money for an actual property so long as the status of his assets still in Ukraine is still up in the air. I should imagine the Ukrainian government will take steps, if it has not already, to prevent his simply withdrawing their cash value.
Moscow Exile August 1, 2019 at 8:52 am
Same story from TASS [Eng]:

1 AUG, 14:07
In Saakashvili's shoes? Poroshenko asks US lobbyists to shield him from criminal charges
According to Vesti Ukraine, the ex-president sought help from the BGR Group, whose senior adviser is US Special Envoy for Ukraine Kurt Volker


Trust me!

yalensis August 1, 2019 at 4:24 pm
The thing about the pindosi, though, is that they always hedge their bets .
I vangize that they will pressure Zel to pardon Porky. So that they have a spare.
I hope I am wrong, but I don't think I am.
Mark Chapman August 1, 2019 at 5:45 pm
I doubt it, simply because it would kick the timbers right out from under Zelenskiy's anti-corruption platform, which is the issue on which he was voted in, and there would be no way to do it under the radar. The Ukrainian people must be following Porky's flight with great interest, and inferring that it means he has something to hide. Therefore an abrupt discontinuing of the pursuit, and a refocusing elsewhere, would tell them accountability is not attributed to the powerful and wealthy. Which is uhhh exactly the opposite of Zelenskiy's message.

[Aug 06, 2019] Ukraine ex-president Poroshenko summoned for questioning. A person who led Ukraine to prosperity, fighter with corruption, liberator from Russia, and he is being questioned? How come? :-)

It true, also interesting is https://news.ru/en/world/petro-poroshenko-left-ukraine/
Notable quotes:
"... A person who led Ukraine to prosperity, fighter with corruption, liberator from Russia, and he is being questioned? How come? :-) ..."
Aug 06, 2019 | news.yahoo.com
Observer, 26 days ago
A person who led Ukraine to prosperity, fighter with corruption, liberator from Russia, and he is being questioned? How come? :-) I hope you get the sarcasm.

[Aug 06, 2019] Media: the ex-president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko left the country together with family

Vacations or escape, or both ?
Jul 30, 2019 | news.ru
Former president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko went to the United Arab Emirates and Germany together with his family. The politician's family had to use two planes to leave the country.

It is known that ex-president's wife Marina left Kiev for Munich on July 23 together with her daughters and younger son Mikhail. Petro Poroshenko himself flew on a charter flight from Kiev to Istanbul along with his eldest son Alexei. According to Izvestia newspaper, the former head of state then took a flight to Dubai with the same board.

Petro Poroshenko has citizenship of five countries despite the ban for Ukrainian citizens to have dual citizenship. The ex-president got several identification documents for different names back in 1996.

[Aug 06, 2019] The Declining Empire Of Chaos Is Going Nuts Over Iran

Notable quotes:
"... Tensions were then focused on Syria , where a mercenary army of at least 200,000 men, armed and trained by the US, UK, Israel, France, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, almost managed to completely topple the country. ..."
"... As the Americans, British, French and Israelis conducted their bombing missions in Syria, the danger of a deliberate attack on Russian positions always remained, something that would have had devastating consequences for the region and beyond. It is no secret that US military planners have repeatedly argued for a direct conflict with Moscow in a contained regional theater. (Clinton called for the downing of Russian jets over Syria, and former US officials claimed that some Russians had to " pay a little price ".) ..."
"... Trump's dramatic U-turn following his historic meeting with Kim Jong-un (a public relations/photo opportunity) began to paint a fairly comical and unreliable picture of US power, revealing to the world the new US president's strategy. The president threatens to nuke a country, but only as a negotiating tactic to bring his opponent to the negotiating table and thereby clinch a deal. He then presents himself to his domestic audience as the "great" deal-maker. ..."
"... With Iran, the recent target of the US administration, the bargaining method is the same, though with decidedly different results. In the cases of Ukraine and North Korea, the two most powerful lobbies in Washington, the Israeli and Saudi lobbies, have had little to say. Of course the neocons and the arms lobbyists are always gunning for war, but these two powerful state-backed lobbies were notably silent with regard to these countries, less towards Syria obviously. As distinguished political scientist John J. Mearsheimer has repeatedly explained , the Israel and Saudi lobbies have unlimited funds for corrupting Democrats and Republicans in order to push their foreign-policy goals. ..."
"... These two lobbies (together with their neocon allies) have for years been pushing to have a few hundred thousand young Americans sent to Iran to sacrifice themselves for the purposes of destroying Iran and her people. Such geopolitical games are played at the cost of US taxpayers, the lives of their children sent to war, and the lives of the people of the Middle East, who have been devastated by decades of conflict. ..."
"... The reasons vary with each case, and I have previously explained extensively why the possibilities for conflict are unthinkable. With Ukraine, a conflict on European soil between Russia and NATO was unthinkable , bringing to mind the type of devastation that was seen during the Second World War. Good sense prevailed, and even NATO somewhat refused to fully arm the Ukrainian army with weapons that would have given them an overwhelming advantage over the Donbass militias. ..."
"... In Syria, any involvement with ground troops would have been collective suicide, given the overwhelming air power deployed in the country by Russia. Recall that since the Second World War, the US has never fought a war in an airspace that was seriously contested (in Vietnam, US air losses were only elevated because of Sino-Soviet help), allowing for ground troops to receive air cover and protection . A ground assault in Syria would have therefore been catastrophic without the requisite control of Syria's skies. ..."
"... Because a war with Iran would be difficult to de-escalate, we can conclude that the possibility of war being waged against the country is unlikely if not impossible. The level of damage the belligerents would inflict on each other would make any diplomatic resolution of the conflict difficult. While the powerful Israeli and Saudi lobbies in the US may be beating the war drums, an indication of what would happen if war followed can be seen in Yemen. Egypt and the UAE were forced to withdraw from the coalition fighting the Houthis after the UAE suffered considerable damage from legitimate retaliatory missile strikes from the Yemen's Army Missile Forces. ..."
"... An open war against Iran continues to be a red line that the ruling financial elites in the US, Israelis and Saudis don't want to cross, having so much at stake. ..."
"... With an election looming, Trump cannot risk triggering a new conflict and betraying one of his most important electoral promises. The Western elite does not seem to have any intention of destroying the petrodollar-based world economy with which it generates its own profits and controls global finance. ..."
"... Even if we consider the possibility of Netanyahu and Bin Salman being mentally unstable, someone within the royal palace in Riyadh or the government in Tel Aviv would have counseled them on the political and personal consequences of an attack on Iran. ..."
Aug 06, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

In 2014 we were almost at the point of no return in Ukraine following the coup d'etat supported and funded by NATO and involving extremist right-wing Ukrainian nationalists. The conflict in the Donbass risked escalating into a conflict between NATO and the Russian Federation, every day in the summer and autumn of 2014 threatening to be doomsday. Rather than respond to the understandable impulse to send Russian troops into Ukraine to defend the population of Donbass, Putin had the presense of mind to pursue the less direct and more sensible strategy of supporting the material capacity of the residents of Donbass to resist the depredations of the Ukrainian army and their neo-Nazi Banderite thugs. Meanwhile, Europe's inept leaders initially egged on Ukraine's destabilization, only to get cold feet after reflecting on the possibility of having a conflict between Moscow and Washington fought on European soil.

With the resistance in Donbass managing to successfully hold back Ukrainian assaults, the conflict began to freeze, almost to the point of a complete ceasefire, even as Ukrainian provocations continue to this day.

Tensions were then focused on Syria , where a mercenary army of at least 200,000 men, armed and trained by the US, UK, Israel, France, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, almost managed to completely topple the country. Russian intervention in 2015 managed to save the country with no time to spare, destroying large numbers of terrorists and reorganizing the Syrian armed forces and training and equipping them with the necessary means to beat back the jihadi waves. The Russians also ensured control of the skies through their network of Pantsir-S1, Pantsir-S2, S-300 and S-400 air-defence systems, together with their impressive jamming (Krasukha-4), command and control information management system (Strelets C4ISR System) and electronic-warfare technologies (1RL257 Krasukha-4).

As the Americans, British, French and Israelis conducted their bombing missions in Syria, the danger of a deliberate attack on Russian positions always remained, something that would have had devastating consequences for the region and beyond. It is no secret that US military planners have repeatedly argued for a direct conflict with Moscow in a contained regional theater. (Clinton called for the downing of Russian jets over Syria, and former US officials claimed that some Russians had to " pay a little price ".)

Since Trump became president, the rhetoric of war has soared considerably, even as the awareness remains that any new conflict would sink Trump's chances of re-election. Despite this, Trump's bombings in Syria were real and potentially very harmful to the Syrian state. Nevertheless, they were foiled by Russia's electronic-warfare capability, which was able to send veering away from their intended target more than 70% of the latest-generation missiles launched by the British, French, Americans and Israelis.

One of the most terrifying moments for the future of humanity came a few months later when Trump started hurling threats and abuses at Kim Jong-un , threatening to reduce Pyongyang to ashes. Trump, moreover, delivered his fiery threats in a speech at the United Nations General Assembly.

Trump's dramatic U-turn following his historic meeting with Kim Jong-un (a public relations/photo opportunity) began to paint a fairly comical and unreliable picture of US power, revealing to the world the new US president's strategy. The president threatens to nuke a country, but only as a negotiating tactic to bring his opponent to the negotiating table and thereby clinch a deal. He then presents himself to his domestic audience as the "great" deal-maker.

With Iran, the recent target of the US administration, the bargaining method is the same, though with decidedly different results. In the cases of Ukraine and North Korea, the two most powerful lobbies in Washington, the Israeli and Saudi lobbies, have had little to say. Of course the neocons and the arms lobbyists are always gunning for war, but these two powerful state-backed lobbies were notably silent with regard to these countries, less towards Syria obviously. As distinguished political scientist John J. Mearsheimer has repeatedly explained , the Israel and Saudi lobbies have unlimited funds for corrupting Democrats and Republicans in order to push their foreign-policy goals.

The difference between the case of Iran and the aforementioned cases of Ukraine, Syria and North Korea is precisely the direct involvement of these two lobbies in the decision-making process underway in the US.

These two lobbies (together with their neocon allies) have for years been pushing to have a few hundred thousand young Americans sent to Iran to sacrifice themselves for the purposes of destroying Iran and her people. Such geopolitical games are played at the cost of US taxpayers, the lives of their children sent to war, and the lives of the people of the Middle East, who have been devastated by decades of conflict.

What readers can be assured of is that in the cases of Ukraine, Syria, North Korea and Iran, the US is unable to militarily impose its geopolitical or economic will.

The reasons vary with each case, and I have previously explained extensively why the possibilities for conflict are unthinkable. With Ukraine, a conflict on European soil between Russia and NATO was unthinkable , bringing to mind the type of devastation that was seen during the Second World War. Good sense prevailed, and even NATO somewhat refused to fully arm the Ukrainian army with weapons that would have given them an overwhelming advantage over the Donbass militias.

In Syria, any involvement with ground troops would have been collective suicide, given the overwhelming air power deployed in the country by Russia. Recall that since the Second World War, the US has never fought a war in an airspace that was seriously contested (in Vietnam, US air losses were only elevated because of Sino-Soviet help), allowing for ground troops to receive air cover and protection . A ground assault in Syria would have therefore been catastrophic without the requisite control of Syria's skies.

In North Korea, the country's tactical and strategic nuclear and conventional deterrence discourages any missile attack. Any overland attack is out of the question, given the high number of active as well as reserve personnel in the DPRK army. If the US struggled to control a completely defeated Iraq in 2003, how much more difficult would be to deal with a country with a resilient population that is indisposed to bowing to the US? The 2003 Iraq campaign would really be a "cakewalk" in comparison. Another reason why a missile attack on North Korea is impossible is because of the conventional power that Pyongyang possesses in the form of tens of thousands of missiles and artillery pieces that could easily reduce Seoul to rubble in a matter of minutes. This would then lead to a war between the US and the DPRK being fought on the Korean Peninsula. Moon Jae-in, like Merkel and Sarkozy in the case of Ukraine, did everything in his power to prevent such a devastating conflict.

Concerning tensions between the US and Iran and the resulting threats of war, these should be taken as bluster and bluff. America's European allies are heavily involved in Iran and depend on the Middle East for their oil and gas imports. A US war against Iran would have devastating consequences for the world economy, with the Europeans seeing their imports halved or reduced. As Professor Chossudovsky of the strategic think tank Global Research has so ably argued , an attack on Iran is unsustainable, as the oil sectors of the UAE and Saudi Arabia would be hit and shut down. Exports would instantly end after the pipelines going West are bombed by the Houthis and the Strait of Hormuz closed. The economies of these two countries would implode and their ruling class wiped out by internal revolts. The state of Israel as well as US bases in the region would see themselves overwhelmed with missiles coming from Syria, Lebanon, the Golan Heights and Iran. The Tel Aviv government would last a few hours before capitulating under the pressure of its own citizens, who, like the Europeans, are unused to suffering war at home.

Because a war with Iran would be difficult to de-escalate, we can conclude that the possibility of war being waged against the country is unlikely if not impossible. The level of damage the belligerents would inflict on each other would make any diplomatic resolution of the conflict difficult. While the powerful Israeli and Saudi lobbies in the US may be beating the war drums, an indication of what would happen if war followed can be seen in Yemen. Egypt and the UAE were forced to withdraw from the coalition fighting the Houthis after the UAE suffered considerable damage from legitimate retaliatory missile strikes from the Yemen's Army Missile Forces.

An open war against Iran continues to be a red line that the ruling financial elites in the US, Israelis and Saudis don't want to cross, having so much at stake.

With an election looming, Trump cannot risk triggering a new conflict and betraying one of his most important electoral promises. The Western elite does not seem to have any intention of destroying the petrodollar-based world economy with which it generates its own profits and controls global finance. And finally, US military planners do not intend to suffer a humiliating defeat in Iran that would reveal the extent to which US military power is based on propaganda built over the years through Hollywood movies and wars successfully executed against relatively defenceless countries. Even if we consider the possibility of Netanyahu and Bin Salman being mentally unstable, someone within the royal palace in Riyadh or the government in Tel Aviv would have counseled them on the political and personal consequences of an attack on Iran.

It is telling that Washington, London, Tel Aviv and Riyadh have to resort to numerous but ultimately useless provocations against Iran, as they can only rely on hybrid attacks in order to economically isolate it from the rest of the world.

Paradoxically, this strategy has had devastating consequences for the role of the US dollar as a reserve currency together with the SWIFT system. In today's multipolar environment, acting in such an imperious manner leads to the acceleration of de-dollarization as a way of circumventing sanctions and bans imposed by the US.

A reserve currency is used to facilitate transactions. If the disadvantages come to exceed the benefits, it will progressively be used less and less, until it is replaced by a basket of currencies that more closely reflect the multipolar geopolitical reality.

The warmongers in Washington are exasperated by their continuing inability to curb the resilience and resistance of the people in Venezuela, Iran, Syria, North Korea and Donbass, countries and regions understood by the healthy part of the globe as representing the axis of resistance to US Imperialism.


Batman11 , 14 minutes ago link

A multi-polar world became a uni-polar world with the fall of the Berlin Wall and Francis Fukuyama said it was the end of history.

That didn't last long, did it?

The US came up with a great plan for an open, globalised world.

China went from almost nothing to become a global superpower.

It was a great plan for China, which is now the problem for the US.

Batman11 , 24 minutes ago link

The cry of US elites can be heard across the world.

Mummy.

What's gone wrong?

I am used to always getting my own way.

Thought.Adjuster , 55 minutes ago link

If Folks would just accept a unipolar World, we could all live together in peace.

ZeroPorridge , 6 minutes ago link

Monopoly means utter slavery.

Like in a living body, each cells on their own, grouped by function, none really being the boss of the rest.

uhland62 , 1 hour ago link

America must always threaten someone with war. Syria, Iran, Venezuela, China, Russia, so many to choose from.

Conflicts must never be resolved; they must always kept simmering, so a hot war can be triggered quickly. All Presidents are turned in the first three months after sworn in.

Jazzman , 1 hour ago link

Without required air superiority they are what? Say it! Say it loud!

Dude-dude , 49 minutes ago link

It's what happens as empires mature. Governance becomes bloated, corrupt and inept (often leading to wars). Maturity time has become significantly reduced due to the rate of information technology advance. America is five years away from going insolvent according to most models and forecasts. All new debt after 2024 will be used to pay the interest on existing debts and liabilities. There is simply no stopping it. The US already pays close to 500 billion in annual interest on debts and liabilities. Factor in a 600 billion or 700 billion dollar annual military budget, and unrestrained deficit spending clocking in at over a trillion, and, well, it isn't going to work for long. Considering most new well paying jobs are government jobs... The end is either full socialism / fascism (folks still don't get how similar these are), a currency crisis and panic, depression and institutional deterioration. The only good news to libertarians I guess - if you can call it good - is that the blotted government along with the crony corporations will mostly and eventually collapse. Libertarian governance might not be a choice by an electorate, it might simply become fact in the aftermath.

-- ALIEN -- , 3 hours ago link

As the falling EROEI of oil gets worse; countries will collapse... It's all downhill from here

...what few are left.

Lokiban , 3 hours ago link

I guess Trump eventually will understand this lesson in politics that friendship, mutual respect and helping each other accomplishes way way more then threatening countries to be bombed back into the stoneage.
Noone likes to do a cutthroat deal enforced upon them by thuggery. Trump's got to learn that you can't run politics like you do your bussinesses, it's not working unles that was his plan all this time, to destroy America.

NumbersUsa , 3 hours ago link

"The Israel and Saudi lobbies have unlimited funds for corrupting Democrats and Republicans in order to push their foreign-policy goals.

These two lobbies (together with their neocon allies) have for years been pushing to have a few hundred thousand young Americans sent to Iran to sacrifice themselves for the purposes of destroying Iran and her people. Such geopolitical games are played at the cost of US taxpayers, the lives of their children sent to war, and the lives of the people of the Middle East, who have been devastated by decades of conflict."

Excellent and Factual points! Thank You!

Scaliger , 3 hours ago link

https://www.jta.org/2019/07/01/united-states/the-israel-projects-ceo-is-leaving-amid-advocacy-groups-fundraising-difficulties

Minamoto , 3 hours ago link

America is increasingly looking like Ancient Rome towards the end. It is overstretched, nearly insolvent, fewer allies want to be allies, it's population is sick, physically and mentally. Obesity, diabetes, drug use/addiction make it impossible for the Pentagon to meet recruitment goal. Mental illness causes daily mass killing. The education system is so broken/broke that there is little real education being done. Americans are among the most ignorant, least educated and least educate-able people in the developed world.

Militarily, the USA can bomb but that's about it... defeats upon defeats over the past two decades demonstrate the US military is a paper tiger of astonishing incompetence.

Boeing can't make planes anymore. Lockheed is not much better. Parts of the F-35 are made by Chinese subsidiaries. The most recently built aircraft carrier cannot launch fighter jets.

-- ALIEN -- , 3 hours ago link

We gots NASCAR, big trucks, free TV, fast food, and endless ****.

Go 'Merica!

Justin Case , 2 hours ago link

Recent estimates indicate that more than 550,000 people experience homelessness in the US on any given night, with about two-thirds ending up in emergency shelters or transitional housing programs, and one-third finding their way to unsheltered locations like parks, vehicles, and metro stations. According to the Urban Institute, about 25% of homeless people have jobs.

I find that it is difficult for me to wrap my head around pain and suffering on such an immense scale. Americans often think of the homeless as drug-addicted men that don't want to work, but the truth is that about a quarter of the homeless population is made up of children.

foxenburg , 2 hours ago link

Seriously, why would Iran want to hijack a German ship? Iran took the UK one in retaliation for the Brits seizing the one at Gibraltar. Had that not happened, no Brit ships in the Persian Gulf would have been touched. This is all a carefully engineered USA provocation designed to, inter alia, increase tension in the Persian Gulf, put more nails in coffin of JCPOA...and most importantly give UK an excuse, as remaining signatory, to call for the original UN sanctions on Iran to be snapped-back.

terrific , 4 hours ago link

Federico, let me explain it simply: the U.S. is allied with Israel, and Iran hates Israel. Why, I don't know (nor do I care), but that's why the U.S. needs to keep Iran in check.

Grouchy-Bear , 4 hours ago link

You are confused...

Israel hates Iran and it is Israel that needs to be kept in check...

CatInTheHat , 4 hours ago link

Yet CONGRESS just passed the largest defense bill in history. The WAR industry is bankrupting us financially spiritually and morally.

A war is coming. But upon whom this time (or STILL?), because with President Bolton and Vice President Adelson in power, China Iran or Russia or maybe all three, are open options.

Ofelas , 4 hours ago link

Interview with a Russian I saw 2 years ago "USA wants to create local conflicts on foreign shores, ...on our borders, we will not allow that to happen and make the war international" I will translate: Russia will not be pulled in to some stupid small war draining their resources while the US sits comfortable, they will throw their missiles around - no escape from nuclear winter.

libtears , 3 hours ago link

Us pays more in interest than defense spending now. You'll need to factor that into your predictions

UBrexitUPay4it , 3 hours ago link

If spending has reached the limit now, during peacetime....what will happen during a protracted war? Even if it stays conventional, it would appear that a huge war effort, comparable to WWII, just won't be possible. The US seems to be in a pre-war Britain position, but there isn't a friendly giant across the water to bail them out with both cash and resources.

Either things become insane in fairly short order, or wiser heads will prevail and the US will step back from the brink. Do we have any wiser heads at the moment?

I keep seeing John Bolton's moustache, Andi am not filled with confidence.

[Aug 02, 2019] Neo-Nazi Azov National Corps march/rally in Odessa to celebrate the 5th year anniversary of the far-right's instituting "Ukrainian order" [Kaganat of Nuland] in the city via the massacre of 40+ people in the Trade Unions House on May 2, 2014

Aug 02, 2019 | www.unz.com

annamaria , says: August 2, 2019 at 12:04 pm GMT

@Fran Taubman "Neo-Nazi Azov National Corps march/rally in Odessa to celebrate the 5th year anniversary of the far-right's instituting "Ukrainian order" [Kaganat of Nuland] in the city via the massacre of 40+ people in the Trade Unions House on May 2, 2014."

https://twitter.com/mossrobeson__/status/1124048873226481669/video/1

annamaria , says: August 2, 2019 at 12:07 pm GMT
@Fran Taubman Zionist project in Ukraine: "Some of the people in the group [supporters of the Kiev regime installed by Nuland-Kagan] were wearing ultra-nationalist Right Sector movement insignia, were armed with chains and bats and carried shields."
https://www.rt.com/news/156592-odessa-activists-burnt-alive/

[Jul 31, 2019] New MH17 Documentary Proves Beyond a Doubt that a Cover-Up Took Place by Andrew Korybko

Notable quotes:
"... The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day. ..."
"... " MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident. ..."
"... The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so. ..."
Jul 25, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca
Region: Asia , Europe , Russia and FSU Theme: History , Law and Justice , Media Disinformation In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

The newly released documentary directed by Yana Yerlashova together with independent Dutch investigator Max van der Werff proves beyond a doubt that Ukraine and its Western partners did all that they could to cover up the true cause of MH17's tragic downing half a decade ago, introducing new evidence and testimonies that cast serious doubt on the "official" narrative of what really took place on that dreadful day.

***

The entire world is already aware of the two competing theories about MH17's downing half a decade ago, with the West insisting that a supposedly Russian-supplied BUK surface-to-air missile accidentally destroyed the passenger aircraft while Moscow has always maintained its innocence and claimed that it's being framed as part of a politically motivated cover-up. Most people have already made up their minds about what they think really happened on that dreadful day, but those who doubt that an actual conspiracy took place might finally reconsider their views after the newly released documentary by Yana Yerlashova together with Dutch investigator Max van der Werff.

The "official" narrative blames Russia for this tragedy, but it's since been revealed through the new evidence and testimonies that active efforts involving a broad array of countries were undertaken from the get-go to paint Moscow as the culprit despite there being no facts whatsoever to back up that provocative claim.

" MH17 – Call For Justice " sheds light on the dark truth of what happened immediately after the plane's downing, with journalist John Helmer's summary of the 28-minute-long documentary pointing out the key takeaways for those who don't have the time to watch it in full. The video powerfully includes a brief interview with Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir, who had earlier spoken out about the cover-up and reaffirms that Russia was blamed for what happened even before any information was conclusively known about the incident.

India's "Playing Hard to Get" with America by Letting the AIIB Fund China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/wkDWwYk4-Ho

The Prime Minister of Malaysia Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad also revealed that the West tried to prevent his country's meaningful involvement in the investigation, which is extremely scandalous, to say the least. The Malaysians weren't going to be deterred in their quest for justice, however, as the documentary includes a testimony from Colonel Mohamad Sakri , the head of the Malaysian team, disclosing that he secretly took a small team to Donetsk to gather evidence from the site after Poroshenko's officials originally blocked them from doing so.

Malaysia's possession of the black boxes ensured that the country would know the truth about what really occurred, which explains why Colonel Sakri also said that both the FBI and the Ukrainian government desperately tried to convince him to hand this evidence over to them immediately afterwards. He rightly refused, and that's why his government never jumped on the bandwagon of blaming Russia since they were aware that there's no conclusive evidence proving its complicity in this affair. This carries immense normative weight that has unfairly been ignored by the Mainstream Media when discussing this case, though it's understandable why they wouldn't want to draw attention to it since that "inconvenient fact" dismantles their anti-Russian infowar. It also would make more people across the world question why they weren't made aware of any of this in the first place, which in today's populist-driven environment could produce more anti-elite outrage than ever before.

Few independent investigators have done as much to reveal the truth about MH17 as Yana Yerlashova and Max Van den Werff, who have done the entire world an enormous service with their latest documentary which has proven once that the Mainstream Media narrative was nothing but a politically motivated lie to blame Moscow while deflecting attention from Kiev and its probable culpability in causing this tragedy.

Those who already knew this won't be surprised, but there are nevertheless many more who had no idea about this side of the story, which is why this documentary is a much-watch and should be shared with as many people as possible, especially on social media so that others can become aware of the evidence and testimonies that his work includes in order to finally make up their minds about what really happened.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Andrew Korybko is an American Moscow-based political analyst specializing in the relationship between the US strategy in Afro-Eurasia, China's One Belt One Road global vision of New Silk Road connectivity, and Hybrid Warfare. He is a frequent contributor to Global Research.

[Jul 29, 2019] WATCH MH17 -- Call for Justice

Jul 29, 2019 | off-guardian.org

Bonanza media investigative team of independent journalists conduct exclusive interviews with one of the suspects in the downing the MH17, the Malaysian prime minister, the colonel that collected the black boxes and much more.

Eye-opening testimonies from witnesses and irrefutable evidence from experts. Exclusive footage shot in Malaysia, the Netherlands and at the crash area in Ukraine.

[Jul 26, 2019] The JIT "investigation" was rotten: Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

Notable quotes:
"... including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix ..."
"... I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary . ..."
Jul 26, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

RUSSIAN FEDERATION SITREP 25 JULY 2019 by Patrick Armstrong - Sic Semper Tyrannis

MH17. I have always thought the JIT "investigation" was rotten – see this (port engine intake – BIG clue as to direction of missile). We now have a documentary that reiterates Malaysia was excluded, a secret mission to get the black box first, the intercepts are fakes, more people report seeing fighter planes, the radars were not down for repair.

But including Ukraine in the JIT and excluding Malaysia were enough clues that the investigation would be a fix . I'm sceptical that it was a BUK (too few fragments); I think the fighter plane sighting reports should be looked at. I think the Ukrainian side shot it down but I don't know whether by accident ( wouldn't be the first time ) or whether there was government involvement (but those faked up intercepts were out pretty quickly, weren't they?) Helmer discusses ; the documentary .

The Twisted Genius ,

MH17. Thanks for that link to the documentary. It laid out a clear case that the JIT investigation stinks to high heaven. I think you may have participated in some of our discussions on this years ago.

https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/judging-by-your-analysis-and-comments-i-gather-that-you-find-it-near-inconceivable-that-the-ukrainian-junta-forces-could-hav.html
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/another-look-at-the-aa-missile-theory-ttg.html

Judging by some of the eyewitness accounts in the documentary, I'm leaning more to a shoot down by a Ukrainian SU-25. I was always puzzled by the change of direction of the airliner's flight path before it broke up. A chase/strafing run and AA missile strike seems a more likely explanation for that direction change that a sudden Buk strike.

I believe the Ukies had versions of the SU-25 with pressurized cockpits and refurbished to handle the R-60, R-73 and Israeli Python missiles.

Do you know if anyone is still researching this scenario?

[Jul 25, 2019] A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US, and Australian governments.

Jul 25, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

jsb , Jul 24 2019 21:15 utc | 36

What about the MH-17 "conspiracy theories"? A recent video " MH17: Call for Justice' (2019) " produced by Max van der Werff blows the lid off (just the tip of the iceberg) of the propaganda put worth by the West.
A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US, and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian – Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.

...

The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them

( Source )

[Jul 23, 2019] MH17 Evidence-Tampering Exposed Cover-Ups, Hiding Records, Witness Misreporting, FBI Seizures

Jul 23, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by John Helmer,

A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

[Jul 23, 2019] John Helmer MH17 Evidence Tampering Revealed by Malaysia – FBI Attempt To Seize Black Boxes; Dutch Cover-Up of Forged Telephon

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable. ..."
"... A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time. ..."
"... Malaysia's exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained. ..."
"... The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court. ..."
"... The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27. ..."
"... Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29. ..."
"... In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source: https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian control. ..."
"... Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians; for details, read this . ..."
"... Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the June 19, 2019 , press conference of JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU. ..."
"... Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. ..."
"... She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony." ..."
"... According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the Ukrainian Army were there." ..."
"... Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it." ..."
"... Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice for the victims," Zakaria said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?] "Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions." ..."
"... Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g. here for others)? ..."
"... Why is no journalist raising these questions? ..."
"... Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh? ..."
"... That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. ..."
"... Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.) ..."
"... Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists? ..."
"... And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right after the shooting of the plane. ..."
"... "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103 site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight. ..."
"... I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link. Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down in high summer. And so it went on. ..."
"... Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were seriously not barking. ..."
"... That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. ..."
"... Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia". ..."
"... If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians. ..."
"... The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will begin to find peace. ..."
Jul 23, 2019 | www.nakedcapitalism.com

Yves here. Hoo boy. The idea that eastern Ukrainian insurgents or Russia would target a passenger plane never made any sense (unless the plane had high-priority targets or cargo), although it's always been possible that the downing of MH17 was an accident, and some efforts to explain what happened are based on that idea. For Malaysia, starting with Prime Minister Mahathir, to stand up and say the US tried to cook the record to pin the crash on Russia is remarkable.

A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials; suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes; and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian -- Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister's Department and Malaysia's National Security Council following the crash on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia's OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.

The 298 casualties of MH17 included 192 Dutch; 44 Malaysians; 27 Australians; 15 Indonesians. The nationality counts vary because the airline manifest does not identify dual nationals of Australia, the UK, and the US.

The new film throws the full weight of the Malaysian Government, one of the five members of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), against the published findings and the recent indictment of Russian suspects reported by the Dutch officials in charge of the JIT; in addition to Malaysia and The Netherlands, the members of the JIT are Australia, Ukraine and Belgium. Malaysia's exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium's inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained.

The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27.

The 28-minute documentary by Max van der Werff and Yana Yerlashova has just been released. Yerlashova was the film director and co-producer with van der Werff and Ahmed Rifazal. Vitaly Biryaukov directed the photography. Watch it in full here .

The full interview with Prime Minister Mahathir was released in advance; it can be viewed and read here .

Mahathir reveals why the US, Dutch and Australian governments attempted to exclude Malaysia from membership of the JIT in the first months of the investigation. During that period, US, Dutch, Australian and NATO officials initiated a plan for 9,000 troops to enter eastern Ukraine, ostensibly to secure the crash scene, the aircraft and passenger remains, and in response to the alleged Russian role in the destruction of MH17 on July 17; for details of that scheme, read this .

Although German opposition to military intervention forced its cancellation, the Australians sent a 200-man special forces unit to The Netherlands and then Kiev. The European Union and the US followed with economic sanctions against Russia on July 29.

Malaysian resistance to the US attempts to blame Moscow for the aircraft shoot-down was made clear in the first hours after the incident to then-President Barack Obama by Malaysia's Prime Minister at the time, Najib Razak. That story can be followed here and here .

In an unusual decision to speak in the new documentary, Najib's successor Prime Minister Mahathir announced: "They never allowed us to be involved from the very beginning. This is unfair and unusual. So we can see they are not really looking at the causes of the crash and who was responsible. But already they have decided it must be Russia. So we cannot accept that kind of attitude. We are interested in the rule of law, in justice for everyone irrespective of who is involved. We have to know who actually fired the missile, and only then can we accept the report as the complete truth."

On July 18, in the first Malaysian Government press conference after the shoot-down, Najib (right) announced agreements he had already reached by telephone with Obama and Petro Poroshenko, the Ukrainian President. " 'Obama and I agreed that the investigation will not be hidden and the international teams have to be given access to the crash scene.' [Najib] said the Ukrainian president ‎has pledged that there would be a full, thorough and independent investigation and Malaysian officials would be invited to take part. 'He also confirmed that his government will negotiate with rebels in the east of the country in order to establish a humanitarian corridor to the crash site,' said Najib. He also said that no one should remove any debris or the black box from the scene. The Government of Malaysia is dispatching a special flight to Kiev, carrying a Special Malaysia Disaster Assistance and Rescue Team, as well as a medical team. But we must – and we will – find out precisely what happened to this flight. No stone can be left unturned."

The new film reveals in an interview with Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the head of the Malaysian team, what happened next. Sakri's evidence, filmed in his office at Putrajaya, is the first to be reported by the press outside Malaysia in five years. A year ago, Sakri gave a partial account of his mission to a Malaysian newspaper .

Source: https://www.youtube.com/

"I talked to my prime minister [Najib]," Colonel Sakri says. "He directed me to go to the crash site immediately." At the time Sakri was a senior security official at the Disaster Management Division of the Prime Minister's Department. Sakri says that after arriving in Kiev, Poroshenko's officials blocked the Malaysians. "We were not allowed to go there so I took a small team to leave Kiev going to Donetsk secretly." There Sakri toured the crash site, and met with officials of the Donetsk separatist administration headed by Alexander Borodai .

With eleven men, including two medical specialists, a signalman, and Malaysian Army commandos, Sakri had raced to the site ahead of an armed convoy of Australian, Dutch and Ukrainian government men. The latter were blocked by Donetsk separatist units. The Australian state press agency ABC reported their military convoy, prodded from Kiev by the appearance of Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans, had been forced to abandon their mission. That was after Colonel Sakri had taken custody of the MH17 black boxes in a handover ceremony filmed at Borodai's office in Donetsk on July 22.

US sources told the Wall Street Journal at the time "the [Sakri] mission's success delivered a political victory for Mr. Najib's government it also handed a gift to the rebels in the form of an accord, signed by the top Malaysian official present in Donetsk, calling the crash site 'the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic.' That recognition could antagonize Kiev and Washington, which have striven not to give any credibility to the rebels, whose main leaders are Russian citizens with few ties to the area. State Department deputy spokeswoman Marie Harf said in a briefing Monday that the negotiation 'in no way legitimizes' separatists."

The Australian state radio then reported the Ukrainian government as claiming the black box evidence showed "the reason for the destruction and crash of the plane was massive explosive decompression arising from multiple shrapnel perforations from a rocket explosion." This was a fabrication – the evidence of the black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, first reported six weeks later in September by the Dutch Safety Board, showed nothing of the kind; read what their evidence revealed .

Foreign Minister Bishop, in Kiev on July 24, claimed she was negotiating with the Ukrainians for the Australian team in the country to carry arms. "I don't envisage that we will ever resort to [arms]," she told her state news agency, "but it is a contingency planning, and you would be reckless not to include it in this kind of agreement. But I stress our mission is unarmed because it is [a] humanitarian mission."

In Kiev on July 24, 2014, left to right: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop; Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin. Source: https://www.alamy.com/ The NATO intervention plan was still under discussion, but the black boxes were already under Malaysian control.

By the time she spoke to her state radio, Bishop was concealing that the plan for armed intervention, including 3,000 Australian troops, had been called off. She was also concealing that the black boxes were already in Colonel Sakri's possession.

The document signed by Sakri for the handover of the black boxes is visible in the new documentary. Sakri signed himself and added the stamp of the National Security Council of Malaysia.

Col. Sakri says on film the Donetsk leaders expressed surprise at the delay of the Malaysians in arriving at the crash site to recover the black boxes. "Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." Source: https://www.youtube.com/ Min. 05:47.

Sakri goes on to say he was asked by the OSCE's special monitoring mission for Ukraine to hand over the black boxes; he refused. He was then met by agents of the FBI (Min 6:56). "They approached me to show them the black box. I said no." He also reports that in Kiev the Ukrainian Government tried "forcing me to leave the black boxes with them. We said no. We cannot. We cannot allow."

The handover ceremony in Donetsk, July 22, 2014: on far left, the two black boxes from MH17; in the centre, shaking hands, Alexander Borodai and Mohamad Sakri.

Permission for Colonel Sakri to speak to the press has been authorized by his superiors at the prime ministry in Putrajaya, and his disclosures agreed with them in advance.

Subsequent releases from the Kiev government to substantiate the allegation of Russian involvement in the shoot-down have included telephone tape recordings. These were presented last month by the JIT as their evidence for indictment of four Russians; for details, read this .

Van der Werff and Yerlashova contracted with OG IT Forensic Services , a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, to examine the telephone tapes. The Kuala Lumpur firm has been endorsed by the Malaysian Bar . The full 143-page technical report can be read here .

The findings reported by Akash Rosen and illustrated on camera are that the telephone recordings have been cut, edited and fabricated. The source of the tapes, according to the JIT press conference on June 19 by Dutch police officer Paulissen, head of the National Criminal Investigation Service of The Netherlands, was the Ukrainian SBU. Similar findings of tape fabrication and evidence tampering are reported on camera in the van der Werff film by a German analyst, Norman Ritter.

Left: Dutch police chief Paulissen grins as he acknowledged during the June 19, 2019 , press conference of JIT that the telephone tape evidence on which the charges against the four accused Russians came from the Ukrainian SBU.

Minute 16:02 Right: Norman Ritter presented his analysis to interviewer Billy Sixt to show the telephone tape evidence has been forged in nine separate "manipulations". One of the four accused by the JIT last month, Sergei Dubinsky, testifies from Min. 17 of the documentary. He says his men recovered the black boxes from the crash site and delivered them to Borodai at 23:00 hours on July 17; the destruction of the aircraft occurred at 1320.

Dubinsky testifies that he had no orders for and took no part in the shoot-down. As for the telephone tape-recording evidence against him, Dubinsky says the calls were made days before July 17, and edited by the SBU. "I dare them to publish the uncut conversations, and then you will get a real picture of what was discussed." (Min. 17:59).

Van der Werff and Yerlashova filmed at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. Several local witnesses were interviewed, including a man named Alexander from Torez town, and Valentina Kovalenko, a woman from the farming village of Red October. The man said the missile equipment alleged by the JIT to have been transported from across the Russian border on July 17 was in Torez at least one, possibly two days before the shoot-down on July 17; he did not confirm details the JIT has identified as a Buk system.

Kovalenko, first portrayed in a BBC documentary three years ago (starting at Min.26:50) as a "unique" eye-witness to the missile launch, clarifies more precisely than the BBC reported where the missile she saw had been fired from.

BBC documentary, " The Conspiracy Files. Who Shot Down MH17 " -- Min. 27:00. The BBC broadcast its claims over three episodes in April-May 2016. For a published summary, read this .

This was not the location identified in press statements by JIT. Van der Werff explains: "we specifically asked [Kovalenko] to point exactly in the direction the missile came from. I then asked twice if maybe it was from the direction of the JIT launch site. She did not see a launch nor a plume from there. Notice the JIT 'launch site' is less than two kilometers from her house and garden. The BBC omitted this crucial part of her testimony."

According to Kovalenko in the new documentary, at the firing location she has now identified precisely, "at that moment the Ukrainian Army were there."

Kovalenko also remembers that on the days preceding the July 17 missile firing she witnessed, there had been Ukrainian military aircraft operating in the sky above her village. She says they used evasion techniques including flying in the shadow of civilian aircraft she also saw at the same time.

On July 17, three other villagers told van der Werff they had seen a Ukrainian military jet in the vicinity and at the time of the MH17 crash.

Concluding the documentary, van der Werff and Yerlashova present an earlier interview filmed in Donetsk by independent Dutch journalist Stefan Beck, whom JIT officials had tried to warn off visiting the area. Beck interviewed Yevgeny Volkov, who was an air controller for the Ukrainian Air Force in July 2014. Volkov was asked to comment on Ukrainian Government statements, endorsed by the Dutch Safety Board report into the crash and in subsequent reports by the JIT, that there were no radar records of the airspace at the time of the shoot-down because Ukrainian military radars were not operational.

Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it."

Last month, at the JIT press conference in The Netherlands on June 19, the Malaysian representative present, Mohammed Hanafiah Bin Al Zakaria, one of three Solicitors-General of the Malaysian Attorney General's ministry, refused to endorse for the Malaysian Governnment the JIT evidence or its charges against Russia. "Malaysia would like to reiterate our commitment to the JIT seeking justice for the victims," Zakaria said . "The objective of the JIT is to complete the investigations and gathering of evidence of all witnesses for the purpose of prosecuting the wrongdoers and Malaysia stands by the rule of law and the due process." [Question: do you support the conclusions?] "Part of the conclusions [inaudible] – do not change our positions."

By John Helmer , the longest continuously serving foreign correspondent in Russia, and the only western journalist to direct his own bureau independent of single national or commercial ties. Helmer has also been a professor of political science, and an advisor to government heads in Greece, the United States, and Asia. He is the first and only member of a US presidential administration (Jimmy Carter) to establish himself in Russia. Originally published at Dances with Bears


Jeff , July 23, 2019 at 2:54 am

I always come back to the same three questions:
1. If all civilian and military radars were out of order, why was the flight not redirected out of the Ukrainian airspace and into some territory with radar?
2. Why is the transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder kept a secret (see e.g. here for others)?
3. Why is no journalist raising these questions?

(I got a partial answer to 3. "because only Kremlin trolls and conspiracy specialists doubt the official/Bellingcat version")

vlade , July 23, 2019 at 4:13 am

Re 1) active radar is not used that much in civilian flight control anymore, it's basically a back-up for passive transponder pick up. Dnipro Control was monitoring the flight using passive (that's for example how they knew they were off their approved airway L980 and asked them to get back, which, if there was no radar, they could not do). Passive (civilian) radar is no use in tracking missiles or military planes with no transporder on.

So the question 1) is irrelevant.

Colonel Smithers , July 23, 2019 at 4:50 am

Thank you, Gentlemen.

Bellingcat? The fellow using the pseudonym is called Eliot Higgins and hails from the Midlands, not far from the Jihadist masquerading as the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights above a take away shop. He was a regular BTL commentator at the Grauniad before being paid to spout BS. Nice work if one can get it, eh?

Having grown up in a military family and knowing what precautions are taken, I am staggered at how Bell End Cat can track down Russian secret servicemen with such ease and in their homeland.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 8:55 am

If you watch the film, you'd learn that there were back-ups so not all were out of order. And if we knew the answer to your questions, we'd likely know 'who done it.'

JerryDenim , July 23, 2019 at 4:28 am

Undoubtedly there's something quite rotten afoot here, and I'll be sure to give this film a watch, but honestly the Malaysians have zero credibility when it comes to airplane crashes involving their national airline, especially after they deliberately fed false information to rescue and recovery teams concerning MH 370's flight path. Whatever they knew or didn't know they had no interest in helping anyone find that airplane or discover what took place onboard before it vanished. They should spare us all any sanctimony about 'justice for victims, truth, rule of law, etc.'

It seems the world has a real credibility crisis today, not many state actors I trust to tell the truth or not politicize tragedy. These revelations certainly make it seem more likely Ukrainian forces were to blame for downing MH17, but at this point the mystery will never be conclusively solved. Two warring factions with the exact same equipment/weaponry in close proximity, compromised crash sites, tons of propaganda, lots of interested parties seeking to maximize the tragedy for political gain, corrupt authorities all around.

Not an ideal situation for objective fact finding to say the least. With the 1MBD scandal and investigation still ongoing I have no doubts the Malaysians are probably looking for leverage and bargaining chips where ever they can find them, further eroding their objectivity and authority in my opinion. Getting to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination will be easier than MH17, but if the truth does come out it will not be owed to the virtues of the Malaysian government. They've already shown the world how much they care about airplane crash investigations.

Yves Smith Post author , July 23, 2019 at 4:49 am

I have to tell you, this is an ad hominem argument, which is a violation of our site Policies. You need to deal with the evidence and not attack the source. With MH370, you had a crash of a plane under the control of the carrier, not as a result of an air strike.

Ian Perkins , July 23, 2019 at 11:19 am

Quite apart from the ad hominem nature of JerryDenim's comment (and I disagree with Yves Smith; I think the credibility of sources is relevant), what motive would Malaysia have for siding with Russia/east Ukraine against the west/west Ukraine? Does JerryDenim know of one, or have any suggestions?

vlade , July 23, 2019 at 4:31 am

TBH, I have dire doubts on anything Malaysian government says, due to their handling of MH370 where they continue lying in face of hard facts (that doesn't mean I believe any governments on this).

I believe that the most likely cause is an accidental shooting down, where an inexperienced and untrained separatist crew messed up (this is what you get when even a semi-sophisticated equipment gets to untrained people who are keen to use it).

For me it fits Occam's razor the most, and is the only theory which explains the (documented) boasting of the separatists of a large military plane being shot down immediately after the catastrophe.

Joe Well , July 23, 2019 at 9:23 am

>>I have dire doubts on anything Malaysian government says

But on the other side of the scale is the credibility of the US, Dutch and Ukranian security services.

>>the (documented) boasting of the separatists of a large military plane being shot down immediately after the catastrophe.

Isn't that what the Malaysians are trying to debunk by saying the recordings were falsified? (or were they talking about something else?)

RalphR , July 23, 2019 at 4:43 am

How is "Russia did it" logical? That part of Ukraine was in the hands of separatists, not "Russia". "Russia" was not directing their activities. Russia does not want to control the eastern part of Ukraine, which is an economic basket case. But it doesn't want hostile forces parked on its border.

RalphR , July 23, 2019 at 6:52 am

Sorry, that's irrelevant even if true. Even if "Russia" was formally providing troops, as opposed to engaged in a massive wink and nod (a LOT of Russians had relatives in eastern Ukraine, a point you forget re motives and numbers), that's way way way short of any evidence they were in charge.

Plus I was wrong on the key point, and it renders your argument moot. From Rev Kev below:

That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 9:18 am

This response is non-sensical. Have you been to the cemeteries you mention? Any picture can be posted and a caption written – that is no proof of anything. Besides the point being irrelevant to the question of who shot down the plane.

Now that we have the crime and the five-year cover-up, the simplest explanation is actually the one of a likely false flag operation. Asking 'cui bono,' how would Russia or the rebels benefit from shooting down a plane with bunch of Dutch people on board? (Russia historically has had good relations with Holland, Malaysia, too.)

Lots of terrible stuff happened in Ukraine after the govt changed (courtesy of the west). Have we forgotten about the burning of more than 40 people in Odessa? Or the murders of politicians and journalists?

Eustache de Saint Pierre , July 23, 2019 at 1:33 pm

I suppose if one believes the West's preferred version of Putin as some Bond type villain who takes great delight in shooting down planes full of civilians, presumably while stroking a large white cat then I suppose the he dunnit version is the one for you.

Personally I believe that Putin is not an idiot & would likely have been more interested in putting out that fire than throwing more fuel onto it. As for who has any credibility – the Ukrainians under Porkyschenko with their Neo-Nazi element, would I think be at the bottom of my list & that is without mentioning Neo-Cons with their Noble Lie BS.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 2:03 pm

And let's not forget the appearance of (coordinated) magazine covers of VVP as the devil incarnate – almost in unison, right after the shooting of the plane.

Colonel Smithers , July 23, 2019 at 5:07 am

Thank you, Yves.

"Why are you so late", [Borodai] said I think [that was] very funny." That sounds like what happened at the Pan Am 103 site. For some reason yet to be explained over thirty years later, the Royal Air Force air accident investigation team, based at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire, found an American military team on site when they landed by helicopter a bit before midnight.

The US team took charge even though they were on foreign soil.

The Rev Kev , July 23, 2019 at 5:57 am

That was a pretty gutsy move on the Malaysians to send in their own retrieval team for those recorders. I bet that those Malaysian commandos would have a story to tell or two. The danger wasn't from the rebels however but from the west and their allied Ukrainians. The rebels were more than glad to hand over the records that they found at first opportunity but the information, once in the hands of the west, has been seeping out with all the speed of the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I was following this story very closely at the time and you could see that something was "off" within days. The Russians came out with a press conference and released radar tracks and full & total information. We in the west got – a YouTube link. Seriously. This was just the beginning. There was one clip that came out showing moving trucks that proved that the Russians did it – until someone woke up to the fact that the trees in the background were in the winter season whereas that jet was shot down in high summer. And so it went on.

There was a very slow walk to stop people going to the crash site. One Australian couple who lost someone went there in spite of the efforts of our government to stop them. Another time an official visit had to be cancelled as the area was being shelled – by the Ukrainians. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to realize that there was a whole pack of dogs that were seriously not barking. A link from this page talks about how there is a silence when MH17 got hit. I have heard recordings of aircraft that went down and there is usually something – a bang, crumpling, warning calls, shouts – but here there was nothing.

That story about Australia wanting to send 3,000 troops was weird. That is a very large force for Australia and it would have taken weeks to put together a joint US/Dutch/Australian Task Force to go into the rebel area but you would have been talking about heavy casualties and risks of severe escalation with a nuclear Russia. Having said that, Tony Abbott was Prime Minister of the time and Julie Bishop was his Foreign minister and they are both hard right politicians (now both thankfully gone) and may have been entertaining such thoughts.

My belief is that this was an operation to try and retrieve the situation in the Ukraine for the west. The US alone spent over $5 billion on this coup but Russia grabbed the crown jewels of Crimea (with its naval bases & off-shore gas fields) and eastern Ukraine which has a border with Russia. That territory where the missile was fired from was in Ukrainian hands at the time, not rebels, and those launchers were seen speeding rapidly west after the shooting down. Ask yourself – who benefited from this tragedy and that will tell you where to go looking for answers. Maybe, like happened with the Meuller investigation, Russian legal representations should show up in a court of law and start demanding the discovery process of all the evidence. Now that could get interesting.

Camp Lo , July 23, 2019 at 9:07 am

Rebels were the first to respond to the crash scene, recording themselves with a camcorder. The rebels were convinced they had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet and were searching for a pilot that would have ejected. The rebels then thought a fighter downed the airliner and they downed the fighter. Their commander speaking in both Russian and Ukrainian tells the rebels to stop filming and clear the area of civilians. The footage was aired by News Corp Australia.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 9:21 am

If you watch this film, there is a large segment about how the audio recordings were manipulated.

The Rev Kev , July 23, 2019 at 10:08 am

Yeah, I remember watching those films. I saw this big, bearded rebel pick up a child's doll, showed it to the camera as in "Do you see this s***?", put it reverently back where he found it, and then crossed himself in a Orthodox blessing. So the western media took a screen shot of that rebel holding that child's doll and put a caption underneath that the rebel was boasting of the plane being shot down. As for that footage, I live in Oz and I am here to state that I would sooner trust CNN or Fox News before would I put any trust in News Corp Australia, especially their propaganda unit "60 Minutes Australia".

Carolinian , July 23, 2019 at 9:37 am

If memory serves the late Robert Parry of Consortium News claimed to have USG sources who said the missile was a Buk fired by Ukrainian, not separatist troops. And I believe that Russia has said the rocket engine serial number from the investigation's evidence is for a Buk sold long ago to the Ukrainians.

Of course Western sources will say the Russians have no credibility but then they don't either–the fog of propaganda war.

The good news is that the criminal coup regime in Kiev seems to have been decisively defeated with Sunday's election according to MOA in Links. Perhaps this particular branch of the New Cold War–which the Obama regime was so very much responsible for–will begin to find peace.

Olga , July 23, 2019 at 2:00 pm

No, it would not. Watch the film if you want to get some sense of how complicated the whole thing is.

[Jul 23, 2019] Ukraine Election - Voters Defeat Second Color Revolution

Highly recommended!
Ukrainian nation is a separate nation with a distinct and rich culture. You can call them Southern Russians but still they are distinct. That does not mean that Russian language should be suppressed and eliminated from schools, the policy advocated and implemented by Western Ukrainian nationalists. a better policy would to introduce English language from the first grade. Attempt to eliminate Russian is viewed by Eastern Ukrainians as the attempt of colonization (which it is) and in a long run can have the opposite effect like any colonization project.
Two languages can coexist. Ireland and Canada does not stop being distinct countries because they use English language. And very few people in Canada would support switching to French. Many prominent Russian writers have Ukrainian origin (Nikolai Gogol, Mikhail Bulgakov). Elimination of Russian destroy common cultural space (which enriches all participating nations not only Russia) establishing during the USSR years and shrink this common the cultural space.which for Ukraine mean complete domination in Ukrainian cultural space of US culture and Hollywood with all its excesses and warts.
The break of economic cooperation with Russia after EuroMaydan was Washington policy with willing implementers in the face of comprador column (Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko) and Western Ukrainian nationalists, which run the government after EuroMaydan. Among other thing this implies the attempt of colonization of Eastern Ukraine (via forceful Ukrainization) which backfired with the election of Zelensky.
Notable quotes:
"... Zelensky is of Jewish heritage and from the east Ukraine. He speaks Russian, not Ukrainian. ..."
"... I doubt that Trump cares about Ukraine so the main supporter of the coup is not interested ..."
"... But Zelensky is a new guy without any tail moving into a poisonous and dangerous area without allies (other than the voters of course, but how many guns do they have?) ..."
"... Zelensky didn't 'accidentally' become president. He is a front for Kolomoisky who, amongst other things, wants revenge on Poroshenko. Kolomoisky had vaste swathes of property confiscated under Poroshenko. These were all returned a short while back. Kolomoisky probably wants to dump all post-Maidan stuff on Poroshenko, especially MH17 (which Kolomoisky stated to be 'a trifle' and 'the wrong plane was hit'). Lawsuits against Poroshenko have been started. What happens depends on how much loyalty Poroshenko can buy versus that bought by Kolomoisky. ..."
"... Helmer on Kolomoisky and the vast money stolen with collaboration of Lagarde and Clintons, and the resulting suit, which appears to be aimed at keeping Zelensky on the reservation... ..."
"... "A new Delaware state court filing a month ago, triggering new US media reports, appears to signal a shift in US Government policy towards Kolomoisky. Or else, as some Ukrainian policy experts believe, it is a move by US officials to put pressure on the new Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelensky, whom Kolomoisky supported in his successful election campaign to replace Poroshenko." ..."
"... It is interesting to read commenters not understanding the concept of colonial outposts like HK, SK, Japan and the attempts to make the Ukraine such. To empire they represent outposts to challenge the adjoining countries that are not part of empire. look at Puerto Rico. Empire favored it and even paid for citizens to go to college free.....until it didn't work to help make Cuba look bad....and so now it is being discarded like a dirty rag. ..."
"... The Gordian knot in Ukraine is that, after Maidan, the Ukrainian Armed Forces essentially dissolved. The neonazi militias then became the only enforcing power for whatever was left of the Ukrainian government -- that's why Poroshenko, albeit elected, could do nothing to stop those militias from doing whatever they pleased (even though he not being a neonazi himself). ..."
"... Ukraine's economy is in absolute tatters. The Ukrainian government just didn't completely dissolve after Maidan because the USA is using the IMF to artificially keep it afloat (which goes completely against the IMF chart, as was the case with Macri's Argentina, where even the legal borrowing limits were extrapolated by a more than 100% margin). ..."
"... Irrespective of evidence, this is Ukraine, and Kolomoisky's influence on Zelensky can safely be assumed. ..."
"... The issue with the association agreement offered by the EU was not just that it offered little. As I recall it meant access for all EU products to the post-Soviet trading block. There would be nothing to prevent EU exporting anything through Ukraine into Russia. ..."
"... Needless to say, Yanukovych's real options have never been discussed much, and Russia has been blamed for the EU's Economic trap. ..."
"... what does Ukraine have to offer Russia? Aside from putting some space between Russia and NATO, what is left of Ukraine after all of this that they can offer? ..."
"... The Soviet Union built up a large amount of high tech and high value industry in Ukraine, but most of that has rusted away since 1991. Russia has found or developed new sources for most of what they previously bought from Ukraine, and those sources are domestic so Russia is unlikely to trade them in for products made from neglected and mostly defunct Ukrainian industries. ..."
"... That Ukraine has to be considered as both a bridge and a no alliance's land between the West and Russia has always been a no-brainer to me ..."
"... As for Zelensky, he has the backing of the people, such a backing that a 3rd colour revolution would be immediately opposed by a bigger counter-manifestation. Besides, he should seek the backing of the rank and file of the Ukrainian army, just in case things go very badly with the fascists; considering his vast support among the people, the upper echelons of the military might not like or follow him, but if he gives orders, the core troopers would. ..."
"... "Revealing Ukraine" documentary aka "В борьбе за Украину" (which includes the interview in Kremlin released 19 July, minus the Skirpal comments) was released in Ukrainian and Russian, 17, 19 July. The version in those languages is eg here, https://my.mail.ru/mail/stelskov/video/235/5800.html ..."
"... "One hopes that Zelensky is smart enough to foresee a "third Maidan". He should kick out all of them from the police and other forces. He should also raise the police pay. He will need their loyalty sooner than he might think." ..."
"... For newcomers, here is the TC-18-01, the American manual for Unconventional Warfare (published in 2010; leaked in 2012): Training">https://nsnbc.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/special-forces-uw-tc-18-01.pdf">Training Circular No. 18-01: Special Forces Unconventional Warfare, For the color revolution manual, see Gene Sharp's famous book (From Dictatorship to Democracy, 1994). ..."
"... The Holodomor was real, but then again, so were Stalin's purges in that same era (a little later) and Stalin's ethnic forced migrations from 1930 to 1949. ..."
"... While this doesn't excuse these acts, people should keep in mind that the Soviet Union was under tremendous external and internal pressure at the time. Acts of economic warfare tend to be poorly documented in history - for example, China's famines in the 1960s were exacerbated by a US embargo on wheat imports to China. ..."
"... Ultimately, however, the main reason the Western Ukrainians don't like Russia is because they've always believed Ukraine should be a nation in its own right. The large contingent of Ukrainians in Canada, for example and including its present foreign minister, were fighting for the Germans against Russia in World War 2 under the SS , no less. ..."
"... Pre 2014 the Chinese were attracted by the opportunity of a deep water port in Crimea, the sea is too shallow into Ukraine proper. ..."
"... Is it a feature of the "rules based international order" that unelected NGOs can establish "red-lines" on policy and expect adherence? ..."
"... What Ukraine has to offer, William Gruff, if the Biden clan has not stolen it, is some of the best agricultural land in the temperate world. ..."
"... there is the matter of saving those lands from the scourges of American agriculture-GMOs, Roundup et al. ..."
"... This is certainly true: the survivors of the 14th Waffen SS Galicia Division and their dependents, hangers on and sundry war criminals on the lam certainly came to Canada where they sold their votes en bloc to the Federal Liberal Party. In Alberta they came to control inter alia the University of Alberta. ..."
"... But long before these people came over immigration from Ukraine, including Mennonites, brought their traditional skills and agricultural knowledge to, most notably the Prairies. They knew about growing wheat in the climatic conditions here. They also brought traditions of collective organisation -- they tended to be very left wing, co-operators and were among the founders of the Communist Party and the CCF. ..."
"... "Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country?" They aren't, Jackrabbit. Grow up, for Christ's sake, and put these cheap racist cracks behind you. Ukraine is being run by the US and NATO, the Empire. God willing that is now going to change. ..."
"... The main reason, but never disclosed by our corporate press in the West, was the total unacceptable ( hence fullty understandable) of an either/or demand choosing between EU and Russia cooperation btw the lines, as well as an article about military cooperation. Which of course would also exclude Russian partnership. ... that set the stage the humble and charming Mrs "Fuck EU" Nudelman and her cookies at Maidan square. ..."
"... The very fundamental principles of peace, understanding and cooperation of EU was betrayed by their President Baroso. When you add that to the financial rape of Greece by Goldman Sachs & co on his watch, one should think he deserved being executed for high treason! Civil war in Ukraine & and looting of the people of Greece... But guess what... He went directly from EU to .. GOLDMAN SACHS! ..."
"... I appreciate that good concise timeline and explanation of what has happened in Ukraine. I remember finding online a live 24/7 camera feed from Kiev during the Maidan coup, and the fascination but horror of watching the western backed Right Sector thugs wearing neo-nazi Wolfsangel insignias carry out atrocities in real time. ..."
"... Watching what happened live and then following western media disinformation and outright lies was the final slap in the face for me that the corporate media had finally given up any pretenses of journalistic standards. Winter 2013/2014 it finally gasped its last breath and the last nails were hammered into the coffin. From then on we've had non-stop blatantly false narratives presented, with the nutty bogus Russiagate fiction now consuming three years(!) of coverage. ..."
"... Zelensky himself had to brush up on his Ukrainian to be able to run a campaign, which he managed to do with his talents and scripts. ..."
"... Ukraine is being run by the US and NATO, the Empire. No. Ukraine is being run by it's West-leaning leadership and US/NATO is partnered with that leadership. I'm suggesting that Jews are among the most reliably pro-Western people in Ukraine. After all, the "Empire" that you refer to is known as the "Anglo-Zionist Empire". ..."
"... I recall watching the 2014 crisis and civil war in real time. Felt WW-III was upon us. Couldn't believe the outright lies of all Western media and was the straw that broke the back of any remaining faith I had in NYT, The Guardian, BBC, ABC (Australian) etc. The Odessa Massacre was biggest turning point for me. http://stormcloudsgathering.com/the-odessa-massacre-what-really-happened/ ..."
"... In 2014, if I presented evidence against the official Western Ministry of Truth (yeah see the typo but seems worth leaving) on Ukraine I'd get a righteous backlash and called a Putin apologist etc. These days there's blank inward stare of cognitive dissonance, subtle agreement and desire to change topic. Such is the nature of Stockholm Syndrome. ..."
"... My understanding is that of Paora and bevin; there were famines in the Soviet Union, including in Ukraine. The Holodomor myth, if not started there, was massively promoted in the 30s by ... drumroll ... the Hearst empire. ..."
"... Note to snake: not 32 million, but around 5-7 million, probably laughable in itself. (A reference I found for the Ukraine SSR in the 1930s indicates that the population grew during the 1930-33 period, but that should probably be read with great care. It would probably require a study in itself.) ..."
"... On another, but not entirely irrelevant matter, I've always found this wikipedia entry to be vastly entertaining. It gives me a good chuckle to think of Ukrainization -- the promotion of Ukrainian language and culture -- as a communist plot. (It's not a perfect analogy, but it's close enough for a laugh, considering the present.) (And yes, I know it's Wikipedia, but their prejudices lean generally in the other direction.) ..."
"... The extreme right-wing politicians, who gained notoriety after the Maidan coup, prohibited the use of the Russian language which more than 50% of the Ukrainians speak ..."
"... Russian is still spoken in large parts of Ukraine, including Odessa. The main tourist attraction in Odessa, a beach community known as Arcadia, still uses the Russian word at its entrance. Street signs are still in Russian. People speak Russian. ..."
"... The only thing is they made Ukrainian the official language. Everyone must learn it. It is the same in Russia - everyone must learn Russian, even in Chechnya. It is in the nature of a country to have a universal language whereby everyone in the country may communicate. There is nothing whatsoever radical or even unusual about this. ..."
"... As to Yanukovych, he was widely hated by everyone for his total corruption. Even Russians. I lived in Ukraine at that time - mostly in Sevastopol, which was then 90+% Russian (and of course now is part of Russia). Everybody hated him and thought he was utterly corrupt and stole from the people. His thugs would literally walk into a private business with guns and tell the owner "I am buying half your business for $50, here are the papers, sign them now". That is how he operated. Of course they did not want the L'viv folks staging a coup, but the hatred for the corrupt Yanukovych was truly national. ..."
"... All those who say that Zelenski is a puppet or front for Kolomoiski should remember that a certain VV Putin came to power as a puppet or front for Boris Berezovski. And we all know how that (BB) ended. So let's hope for the best - can't get much worse anyway. And Zelenski seems to have acted very smartly so far. Good luck to him - he'll need it! ..."
"... It's my understanding that those Ukrainians who most fervently believe in the Holodomor (that the Soviet govt under Joseph Stalin deliberately targeted ethnic Ukrainians with famine and starvation) live in that part of the modern Ukraine that was under fascist Polish rule in the 1930s. ..."
"... From my own reading, the famines of the early 1930s affected large parts of eastern Ukraine across southen European Russia into Kazakhstan. ..."
"... There's plenty of sources documenting the Ukrainian laws passed since 2014 prohibiting or restricting Russian language in various sectors, including official use, public education, even in films. b was correct in his assessment, and I have no idea where the "hate" accusation came from. I would normally not link to the awful Telegraph of UK, but I assume this story from just three months ago isn't fake news. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/25/ukraine-passes-law-against-russian-language-official-settings/ ..."
"... Most probably, Mariupol 2014-05-09. People wanted to celebrate V-Day, but "democratic" Oleg Lyashko and his "men in black" drove in at attacked demonstration. Local police tried to protect citizens and was ambushed in their own HQ (that very burning house), making last stand. ..."
"... Famines were common in the pre-industrial world. They occured often in the ancient world -- where cities and villages literally disappeared in a matter of decades because of one bad crop and/or one plague (plagues are a side-effect of sedentarism) ..."
"... Wheatcroft uses the 1920s demographic tendency in order to infer "excess deaths" in the USSR in 1932, but he misses the bigger picture: you have to take into account Russian demographic movements in the long term, taking into consideration the cyclic famines. Just to crop a short period from 1926-1932 is scientifically dishonest. ..."
"... It is very unlikely the 1932 famine was an extraordinary famine. The 1937 census registered a population growth in relation to 1926. This alone discards genocide, because, even though excess deaths ocurred (as is the rule in famines), that meant women still had time and resources to biologically reproduce above the population replacement levels. ..."
"... To understand the most important fact of what happened to Ukraine and why, you need to know about the yank neocon PNAC, which trumps (excuse the pun) all: The Project for the New American Century, and the original neocon (jew) wolfowitz doctrine, as revealed in the NYT in 1992: www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-calls-for-insuring-no-rivals-develop.html ..."
"... Russia at the moment is correctly perceived as the main opponent to the usa, china too as upcoming, in line with the above, & PNAC is part of trying to keep Russia in its place: 'part of the American mission will be "convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests."' And 'to deter any nation or group of nations from challenging American primacy'. And 'a world in which there is one dominant military power whose leaders "must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."' Note 'regional' insofar as it concerns Russia wrt ukraine. ..."
"... Also this is why the USG used Maidan (with at least $5 bn - said nuland/jewland, married to the co-founder of PNAC kagan, another jew) against Russia, to cause it problems and to be a thorn in the flesh. ..."
"... Recall the posters in previous threads defending the empire's color revolution attempts in Hong Kong and match the names up with posters here. Are they trying to offer defense of the empire's color revolutions in Ukraine, or do you think they are off-duty now and posting with the sincere intention of initiating open discussion? Do you honestly think you can change their minds by engaging with them and pointing out the flaws in their facts and their logic when it is their job to defend the actions of the empire? ..."
"... Too complex? Let's try the Maidan snipers: We are expected to believe that the killers were police or Berkut snipers. What was their motive? Presumably to stop the protests. If that was their motive, then why did the snipers stop sniping before dispersing the protests? If the snipers were trying to end the protests, then why did they shoot just enough to inflame further protests, but not enough to discourage the protests? ..."
"... The answer is simple: The police and/or Berkut were not the Maidan snipers in Kiev. The snipers were provocateurs who intended to amplify the protests. ..."
Jul 23, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

Ukraine Election - Voters Defeat Second Color Revolution VanWoland , Jul 22 2019 18:55 utc | 1

The Ukraine, translated as 'the borderlands, lies between core Russia and the Europe's western states. It is a split country. Half the population speaks Russian as its first language. The industrialized center, east and south are culturally orthodox Russians. Some of its rural western parts were attached to the Ukraine only after World War II. They have historically a different culture.

The U.S., supported by the EU, used this split - twice - to instigate 'revolutions' that were supposed to bring the Ukraine onto a 'western' course. Both attempts were defeated when the Ukrainians had the chance of a free vote.

The 2004 run-off election for the president of the Ukraine was won by Viktor Yanukovych. The U.S. disliked the result. Its proxies in Ukraine alleged alleged fraud and instigated a color revolution. As a result of the 'Orange Revolution' the vote was re-run and the other candidate, Viktor Yushchenko, was declared the winner. But five years later another vote defeated the U.S. camp. Yanukovych was declared the winner and became president.

In 2014 the European Union made an attempt to bind the Ukraine to its side through an association agreement. But what the EU offered to Ukraine was paltry and Russia countered it. Unlike the Ukraine, which continues to get robbed by its oligarchs ever since its 1991 independence, Russia was economically back and in a much better position. It offered billions in investments and long term loans. Much of Ukraine's industry depends on Russia and Russian gas was offered to the Ukraine for less than the international market price. Yanukovych, who originally wanted to sign the EU association, had no choice but to refuse it, and to take the much better deal Russia offered.

The U.S. and the EU intervened. They again launched a color revolution, but this time it was one that would use force. Militarily trained youth from Galicia in the west Ukraine was bused into Kiev to occupy the central Maidan place and to violently fight the police. Snipers from Georgia were brought in to fire on both sides. It was then falsely alleged that government forces were killing the 'peaceful protesters'.

Yanukovych lost his nerves and fled to Russia. After some illegal political maneuvers new elections were called up and the oligarch Petro Poroshenko, bought off by the 'west', was declared the winner. The unreconstructed fascists from Galicia took over. The population in the industrial heartland in east Ukraine, next to Russia's border, revolted against the new rulers. A civil war, not a 'Russian invasion' , ensued which the Ukrainian government largely lost. Lugansk and Donbas became rebel controlled statelets which depend of Russia. Russia took back Crimea, which in 1954 had been illegally gifted to Ukraine by then Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, himself a Ukrainian.

To end the war in the east Ukraine, the French, German and Russian leaders pressed Poroshenko to sign a peace agreement with the eastern leaders. But the Minsk agreement was seen as a political defeat and Poroshenko never implemented it. The war in the east simmered on ever since. The extreme right-wing politicians, who gained notoriety after the Maidan coup, prohibited the use of the Russian language which more than 50% of the Ukrainians speak. All opposition was harshly suppressed.

The oligarchs continue their plunder. Everything of value gets sold off to EU countries. The U.S. is allowed to build bases. Corruption, already endemic, further increased. The people came to despise Poroshenko.

In an attempt to regain support, Poroshenko launched a military provocation in the Kerch Strait which is under Russian control. The stunt was too obvious . Russia nabbed the sailors Poroshenko had send and confiscated their boats. No one came to Poroshenko's help.

One can watch the full story of the above in UKRAINE ON FIRE - The Real Story (vid), a just released 90 minutes long Oliver Stone documentary. An updated version of the documentary was supposed to run on the Ukraine TV station of pro-Russian oligarch Viktor Medvedchuk. The TV stations was forced to cancel it after right-wing groups mortared its its building in Kiev.

On March 31 new elections were held. Volodymyr Zelensky, a TV comedian who played a teacher who accidentally became president, won the first round. Zelensky is of Jewish heritage and from the east Ukraine. He speaks Russian, not Ukrainian.

Cont. reading: Ukraine Election - Voters Defeat Second Color Revolution Just wanted to point out - the documentary I believe you are referring to is "Revealing Ukraine."

It's a sequel of sorts to "Ukraine on Fire," which is three years old.


Patrick Armstrong , Jul 22 2019 19:01 utc | 2

An admirable summary.
What's next? There are three causes for cautious optimism
1. The elections were actually allowed to happen without Washington's interference; see 2
2. I doubt that Trump cares about Ukraine so the main supporter of the coup is not interested
3. EU has its own problems.

But Zelensky is a new guy without any tail moving into a poisonous and dangerous area without allies (other than the voters of course, but how many guns do they have?)

But you're absolutely correct to see this as the voters gain rejecting a "colour revolution"imposed from outside

bevin , Jul 22 2019 19:02 utc | 3
Fine work here, Bernhard. Analysis as clear and cool as a mountain stream. And now for the march of the Fascists led by the Iron Maidan of Galicia, Chrystia Freeland employing all Canada's power and credibility to restore the Galician Nazis from whose loins she came.
karlof1 , Jul 22 2019 19:09 utc | 4
Excellent review b, thanks! With the political sea change, Ukraine has an opportunity to progress, but somehow those pushing and believing their false narrative will need to be neutralized. It appears the best way forward is to implement the Minsk2 agreements and go forward from there.
Zanon , Jul 22 2019 19:16 utc | 6
Zelensky seems in some some cases to be fresh air

Zelensky's plan to purge Ukraine officials draws criticism
https://www.ft.com/content/f1f40060-a4ab-11e9-974c-ad1c6ab5efd1

But in the end, it is the same type of oligarchs, deep state that really have the final say in Ukraine.

Yonatan , Jul 22 2019 19:17 utc | 7
Zelensky didn't 'accidentally' become president. He is a front for Kolomoisky who, amongst other things, wants revenge on Poroshenko. Kolomoisky had vaste swathes of property confiscated under Poroshenko. These were all returned a short while back. Kolomoisky probably wants to dump all post-Maidan stuff on Poroshenko, especially MH17 (which Kolomoisky stated to be 'a trifle' and 'the wrong plane was hit'). Lawsuits against Poroshenko have been started. What happens depends on how much loyalty Poroshenko can buy versus that bought by Kolomoisky.

Kolomoisky will be looking for alternative sources of loot (eg reconstruction funds) which will only happen if the Donbass situation is wound down. Zelensky has unexpectedly announced that there will be a political solution to the issue of Russian sailors captured before the Kerch incident (and one factor in Russia's response to it) in exchange for those held in Russia. For all this to happen, the neo-Nazis will have to be defused, which may not be as difficult as it would appear as they are funded and orchestrated by the Ukraine oligarchs.

casey , Jul 22 2019 19:20 utc | 8
Helmer on Kolomoisky and the vast money stolen with collaboration of Lagarde and Clintons, and the resulting suit, which appears to be aimed at keeping Zelensky on the reservation...

"A new Delaware state court filing a month ago, triggering new US media reports, appears to signal a shift in US Government policy towards Kolomoisky. Or else, as some Ukrainian policy experts believe, it is a move by US officials to put pressure on the new Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelensky, whom Kolomoisky supported in his successful election campaign to replace Poroshenko."

https://russia-insider.com/en/how-christine-lagarde-clinton-and-nuland-funded-massive-ukrainian-ponzi-scheme/ri27390

psychohistorian , Jul 22 2019 19:28 utc | 9
Thanks for the posting b

It is interesting to read commenters not understanding the concept of colonial outposts like HK, SK, Japan and the attempts to make the Ukraine such. To empire they represent outposts to challenge the adjoining countries that are not part of empire. look at Puerto Rico. Empire favored it and even paid for citizens to go to college free.....until it didn't work to help make Cuba look bad....and so now it is being discarded like a dirty rag.

gzon , Jul 22 2019 19:34 utc | 10
Ukraine needed to get out of the rut it has been in and look forward somehow, even if there are no great changes that happen in the country, much of the previous political heaviness seem gone, for now at least. It should be a good difference. Thanks for the report.
vk , Jul 22 2019 19:51 utc | 11
The Gordian knot in Ukraine is that, after Maidan, the Ukrainian Armed Forces essentially dissolved. The neonazi militias then became the only enforcing power for whatever was left of the Ukrainian government -- that's why Poroshenko, albeit elected, could do nothing to stop those militias from doing whatever they pleased (even though he not being a neonazi himself).

Zelensky will have the same problem: he can pass how much bills he wants -- only those who the neonazi militias want to be implemented will be enforced. He needs to assemble a brand new Armed Forces -- with amateur volunteers if necessary -- if he wants to survive: his Jewish origin alone is already a death certificate for him in the eyes of the neonazis.

The other ace Zelensky has in his hand is the Donbass (Lughansk + Donestk). Those happen to be the most pro-Russian provinces and also, by far, the two most rich and industrialized ones. To make things even better, they also happen to be the two provinces that border with Russia. This peculiar geopolitic configuration is a gift of destiny that, for example, Brazil, didn't have.

Ukraine's economy is in absolute tatters. The Ukrainian government just didn't completely dissolve after Maidan because the USA is using the IMF to artificially keep it afloat (which goes completely against the IMF chart, as was the case with Macri's Argentina, where even the legal borrowing limits were extrapolated by a more than 100% margin). Russia just needs to wait.

Note: as for the toppled Lenin statues. Please, continue: in one of his birthdays, the Soviet population made a mass homage to him, gathering in the Red Square and writing him poems. He was very embarrassed and hated it -- his rationalization was that the Revolution's main actor was the poeple, not him, and that personality cult was the wrong way to perceive reality of the times.

Michael Droy , Jul 22 2019 20:03 utc | 12
Good stuff.

2 quibbles. Irrespective of evidence, this is Ukraine, and Kolomoisky's influence on Zelensky can safely be assumed.

The issue with the association agreement offered by the EU was not just that it offered little. As I recall it meant access for all EU products to the post-Soviet trading block. There would be nothing to prevent EU exporting anything through Ukraine into Russia. This is why the Russians expected to be part of a negotiating group, and why eventually Yanukovych belatedly realised that EU association would lead direct to dissociation with ex-Soviet trading partners and an economic catastrophe for Ukraine. Not so much Russia dissuading Kiev as Kiev taking an inordinate length of time to realise the blatantly obvious.

Needless to say, Yanukovych's real options have never been discussed much, and Russia has been blamed for the EU's Economic trap.

DontBelieveEitherPr. , Jul 22 2019 20:13 utc | 13
Thing is, in Ukraine as much as in the US, EU, India, or wherever: For a Politician to make a campaign for a high political position, let alone the highest, one NEEDS Money. And where is a someone financing a politician, they make themselves vurnable. Thats the nature of it: No one will give you even a penny, let alone dozens of millions of dollars, if not for something in return. So someone HAS to put the money into him, and Kolomoisky is reported not only by NATO, but by Russian sources too.

Why do i say this? Because i want to have my point that everyone is corrupt, and the world is dystopia. No, not today: It is because those "civil organisations" already hinted, that they use Kolomoisky's financing as the attack vector, should the Ukraine dare to stray off from NATO course.

They said something of the likes of: "We heard of the allegations that Kolomoisky is having him in his pocket, and we always want to ensure that politics are not corrupted, so we will watch it". They said that AFAIK some days before the recent threath, so maybe there has been some signs he does not want to play ball with NATO.

But we will see.. With the US you never know, even more with Donald and his best buddy neocons.

William Gruff , Jul 22 2019 20:19 utc | 14
b says: "The Ukraine can not economically survive without good relations with Russia."

That is true, but what does Ukraine have to offer Russia? Aside from putting some space between Russia and NATO, what is left of Ukraine after all of this that they can offer?

The Soviet Union built up a large amount of high tech and high value industry in Ukraine, but most of that has rusted away since 1991. Russia has found or developed new sources for most of what they previously bought from Ukraine, and those sources are domestic so Russia is unlikely to trade them in for products made from neglected and mostly defunct Ukrainian industries.

Ukraine can go crawling back home to Russia (home being the place where they take you back in even after you've been a total jerk), but there will be no massive bailout and magical recovery. Eastern Ukraine will benefit from a peace dividend, but western Ukraine will have to be satisfied with European sex tourism, with Lvov remaining the gay prostitute capital of the continent.

DontBelieveEitherPr. , Jul 22 2019 20:20 utc | 15
@B: One Correction if i see it right: I think linked Documentary "Ukraine on fire" is NOT the new one, he already made a doc about Ukraine some time ago, and this is it.

The new one is Not released yet, i mean the one with the Interview you posted few days ago.

Here Ukraine on fire from 2016: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5724358/

The new one will be named Revealing Ukraine, and is just released. Search your torrent search engine or tracker of choice for it for a HD release. Not on youtube yet AFAIK.

DontBelieveEitherPr. , Jul 22 2019 20:28 utc | 17

Sorry, last post: Please barflies, for those you want to support those documentarys, vote for them on IMDB and write reviews if you saw them. They are being attacked from NATO bots and voted down to C-Movie level. If you dont want BS like Fast & Furious have better ranking as those anti-mainstream docs, please take your time and support them!
They are pretty much the only documentarys in mainstream US media that tell the other side!
Clueless Joe , Jul 22 2019 21:01 utc | 19
That Ukraine has to be considered as both a bridge and a no alliance's land between the West and Russia has always been a no-brainer to me. One that should be imposed from outside if necessary, if some Ukrainians are foolish enough to pick a side - and, considering its geographical position, specially if some Ukrainians people want to move "West" full speed ahead, because the border with Russia will always be there.

As for Zelensky, he has the backing of the people, such a backing that a 3rd colour revolution would be immediately opposed by a bigger counter-manifestation. Besides, he should seek the backing of the rank and file of the Ukrainian army, just in case things go very badly with the fascists; considering his vast support among the people, the upper echelons of the military might not like or follow him, but if he gives orders, the core troopers would.

flankerbandit , Jul 22 2019 21:07 utc | 20
@ William Gruff
Ukraine can go crawling back home to Russia (home being the place where they take you back in even after you've been a total jerk)...

Well said! There is a transcript of the Putin Interview by Oliver Stone on The Saker blog.

For example, I believe that Russians and Ukrainians are actually one people.

Putin adds that it's inevitable that Ukraine will eventually return to good relations with Russia.

Look, when these lands that are now the core of Ukraine, joined Russia, there were just three regions – Kiev, the Kiev region, northern and southern regions – nobody thought themselves to be anything but Russians, because it was all based on religious affiliation. They were all Orthodox and they considered themselves Russians. They did not want to be part of the Catholic world, where Poland was dragging them.

Putin is correct, as usual. He is playing the Long Game, just as China has done with Hong Kong and continues to do with Taiwan. The empire always uses divide and rule. But in the end, empires always bite the dust.

David Park , Jul 22 2019 21:09 utc | 21
In Ukrainian politics my preferences are with the present Russian viewpoint and not at all with the Ukrainian Nazis. Nevertheless, in these discussions there is never a mention of the Ukrainian Holodomor of 1932-1933 that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Soviet_and_Western_denial

Is this all now forgiven, denied or forgotten or is it still the genesis of much of the anti-Russian feeling?

Don Karlos , Jul 22 2019 21:10 utc | 22
"Revealing Ukraine" documentary aka "В борьбе за Украину" (which includes the interview in Kremlin released 19 July, minus the Skirpal comments) was released in Ukrainian and Russian, 17, 19 July. The version in those languages is eg here, https://my.mail.ru/mail/stelskov/video/235/5800.html
ben , Jul 22 2019 21:11 utc | 23
b said; "One hopes that Zelensky is smart enough to foresee a "third Maidan". He should kick out all of them from the police and other forces. He should also raise the police pay. He will need their loyalty sooner than he might think."

We'll all hope for the Zelensky people to salvage some sanity from another round of the empire's attacks. They'll never relent.

One would hope the Stone documentary would be seen here, in the U$A, but that's a distant dream. Should at least be on PBS, but, I doubt it.

As always b, thanks for the therapy, and historical background...

vk , Jul 22 2019 21:29 utc | 24
For newcomers, here is the TC-18-01, the American manual for Unconventional Warfare (published in 2010; leaked in 2012): Training">https://nsnbc.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/special-forces-uw-tc-18-01.pdf">Training Circular No. 18-01: Special Forces Unconventional Warfare, For the color revolution manual, see Gene Sharp's famous book (From Dictatorship to Democracy, 1994).

When used at the same time in the same place, they form what Korybko calls Hybrid Warfare (see his book).

c1ue , Jul 22 2019 21:55 utc | 26
@David Park #21

The Holodomor was real, but then again, so were Stalin's purges in that same era (a little later) and Stalin's ethnic forced migrations from 1930 to 1949.

While this doesn't excuse these acts, people should keep in mind that the Soviet Union was under tremendous external and internal pressure at the time. Acts of economic warfare tend to be poorly documented in history - for example, China's famines in the 1960s were exacerbated by a US embargo on wheat imports to China.

Ultimately, however, the main reason the Western Ukrainians don't like Russia is because they've always believed Ukraine should be a nation in its own right. The large contingent of Ukrainians in Canada, for example and including its present foreign minister, were fighting for the Germans against Russia in World War 2 under the SS , no less.

Jackrabbit , Jul 22 2019 22:19 utc | 29
b:
Some allege that Zelensky is under influence of the oligarch Igor Kolomoisky. But so far there is little evidence to provide that.... Zelensky will likely try to move the country back to a balanced positions between the 'west' and Russia.
There's reason to be skeptical. Nuland (Jewish) picks Yats (rumored to be Jewish). Yats is succeeded by Groysman (Jewish). President Poroschenko (Jewish) is succeeded by Zelinski (Jewish). Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country? I'll bet it's because Jewish support for integration with the West is very strong.

"Yats is the guy" ... until he isn't but will the new guy bring real change or just pretend to?

JohninMK , Jul 22 2019 22:25 utc | 30
Curtis # 27

Not just a bridge between Russia and the EU, the natural partnership that the US really fears, but, look at the geography, it is the natural entry point into Europe for the new Silk Road from China. Pre 2014 the Chinese were attracted by the opportunity of a deep water port in Crimea, the sea is too shallow into Ukraine proper.

jayc , Jul 22 2019 22:32 utc | 31
Is it a feature of the "rules based international order" that unelected NGOs can establish "red-lines" on policy and expect adherence?
bevin , Jul 22 2019 22:33 utc | 32
"Nevertheless, in these discussions there is never a mention of the Ukrainian Holodomor of 1932-1933 that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians..."
The 'Holodomor' was not real. No such event occurred. There was no intention of starving Ukrainians, on the part of the CPSU. In fact most of the Soviet Union suffered from famines in these years, some regions much more than Ukraine. The causes of the famine were largely economic sanctions.

It is quite true that the Collectivisation campaigns were, in many ways disastrous, and carried out with great violence. But the Holodomor myth, invented by Nazi collaborators after 1945 and based on Goebbels's propaganda is Cold War anti-communist hate propaganda of the worst kind.
Wikipedia is extremely unreliable on matters such as this.

2.As to comedians running governments Hoarsewhisperer, don't forget Italy.

3. What Ukraine has to offer, William Gruff, if the Biden clan has not stolen it, is some of the best agricultural land in the temperate world. At a time in which the USA's ability to dump grain on the world market is being employed to conduct terrorist economic warfare against disobedient countries, the surpluses Ukraine could make available are of cardinal importance. Then there is the matter of saving those lands from the scourges of American agriculture-GMOs, Roundup et al.

bevin , Jul 22 2019 22:43 utc | 33
" The large contingent of Ukrainians in Canada, for example and including its present foreign minister, were fighting for the Germans against Russia in World War 2 under the SS, no less."

c1ue@26

This is certainly true: the survivors of the 14th Waffen SS Galicia Division and their dependents, hangers on and sundry war criminals on the lam certainly came to Canada where they sold their votes en bloc to the Federal Liberal Party. In Alberta they came to control inter alia the University of Alberta.

But long before these people came over immigration from Ukraine, including Mennonites, brought their traditional skills and agricultural knowledge to, most notably the Prairies. They knew about growing wheat in the climatic conditions here. They also brought traditions of collective organisation -- they tended to be very left wing, co-operators and were among the founders of the Communist Party and the CCF. It was with great relish that the Liberal Party used the former (and lifelong) Nazis to saplit the community post 1945.

bevin , Jul 22 2019 22:46 utc | 35
"Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country?" They aren't, Jackrabbit. Grow up, for Christ's sake, and put these cheap racist cracks behind you. Ukraine is being run by the US and NATO, the Empire. God willing that is now going to change.
Evelyn , Jul 22 2019 23:25 utc | 37
bevin #35

re
"Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country?"

(a) Is it true that the population of Ukraine is .2% Jewish?
(b) Is it true that the .2% segment runs the country?
(c) Is it considered racist to ask why you find the two subject sentences indications of racism?

Piero , Jul 22 2019 23:29 utc | 38
Thanks for a great site!

However, for sake of good order, the EU association agreement proposal to Ukraine of Mr Baroso, was presented and rejected by Janukovitch beginning of November 2013. ( not 2014). The main reason, but never disclosed by our corporate press in the West, was the total unacceptable ( hence fullty understandable) of an either/or demand choosing between EU and Russia cooperation btw the lines, as well as an article about military cooperation. Which of course would also exclude Russian partnership. ... that set the stage the humble and charming Mrs "Fuck EU" Nudelman and her cookies at Maidan square.

The very fundamental principles of peace, understanding and cooperation of EU was betrayed by their President Baroso. When you add that to the financial rape of Greece by Goldman Sachs & co on his watch, one should think he deserved being executed for high treason! Civil war in Ukraine & and looting of the people of Greece... But guess what... He went directly from EU to .. GOLDMAN SACHS!

kabobyak , Jul 22 2019 23:46 utc | 39
I appreciate that good concise timeline and explanation of what has happened in Ukraine. I remember finding online a live 24/7 camera feed from Kiev during the Maidan coup, and the fascination but horror of watching the western backed Right Sector thugs wearing neo-nazi Wolfsangel insignias carry out atrocities in real time. I searched in vain a couple years later to find the archives of these films. Does anyone know if they still exist? I suspect if the filming was done by a coup-friendly Kiev TV station they will be kept under wraps unless some viewer recorded them, as there is a lot of incriminating evidence which could be exposed.

Watching what happened live and then following western media disinformation and outright lies was the final slap in the face for me that the corporate media had finally given up any pretenses of journalistic standards. Winter 2013/2014 it finally gasped its last breath and the last nails were hammered into the coffin. From then on we've had non-stop blatantly false narratives presented, with the nutty bogus Russiagate fiction now consuming three years(!) of coverage.

Here's hoping the pendulum has swung and we'll reclaim some sanity. Current trends don't favor this, however, and the US may go for the Samson option before conceding to a more multi-polar world. A smart lady (my wife) says we need 10% of people to accept a new idea or narrative before a critical mass can occur and it become the dominant narrative. The more people who understand the issues MOA and others educate about gives us a chance of countering the Empire's narrative control. Thanks to all for spreading the message and keep sharing with your friends.

Acar Burak , Jul 23 2019 0:13 utc | 40
@35 bevin
"Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country?"
They aren't, Jackrabbit. Grow up, for Christ's sake, and put these cheap racist cracks behind you. Ukraine is being run by the US and NATO, the Empire. God willing that is now going to change.

No, he does not just say "Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country?". He says:

Nuland (Jewish) picks Yats (rumored to be Jewish). Yats is succeeded by Groysman (Jewish). President Poroschenko (Jewish) is succeeded by Zelinski (Jewish).

Jewish population of Ukraine is 0.2% of the whole! Why are they running the country? I'll bet it's because Jewish support for integration with the West is very strong.

You can't ignore this "interesting" "fact" if it's the fact.

karlof1 , Jul 23 2019 0:32 utc | 41
TASS reports on election results. Zelensky's "Servant of the People party gets 42.45% of votes after 50% of ballots counted."

It seems reporting on ballot counting has ceased with no updates published today, all new reports I've read are from Sunday the 21st.

roza shanina , Jul 23 2019 0:35 utc | 42
@21 and @26 - regarding the Holodomor, It is true. Millions of people did die, but from what I can tell, it was a lot more complicated than how it is presented. Here's an article I found on Counterpunch Holodomor

I am no specialist or anything, but I think the collectivization was a disaster and the war on the kulaks didn't help anything, and that lead to the Holodomor which is more genocide-porn used for the same purposes as a few other large scale killings I have heard about - to make sure we never forget, and more importantly, we never really find out what really happened, because it is S A C R E D.

I just finished an excellent book on the Ukraine crisis. Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War by Kees Van Der Pijl. In the book he says that the Holodomor was used by the Reagan administration in the second phase of the Cold War as a tool to demonize the Soviet Union. Sound Familiar? The author says the second phase of the Cold War was launched when detente was broken with the Soviet Union, any concessions made to domestic labor in the west was to be dismantled and the goal was regime change in Moscow which happened in 1991. The author really lays it out and explained the new, third phase of the Cold War which really kicked into gear in Kiev in the winter or 2014. I found that to be very interesting. I had never heard it put that way before. I can't recommend the book enough.

I just started Frontline Ukraine by Sakwa. Thank you, B and everyone in the MoA community. Please forgive any mistakes I may have made in describing my interpretation of van Der Pijl's book.

Indrid Cold , Jul 23 2019 0:39 utc | 43

Ukraine is such a unique disaster of a nation precisely because it is not really a nation at all, just a cobbled together mishmash of people with no history. There is no such thing as a Ukrainian ethnicity. Ukrainians are ethnic Russians, remnants of the poor souls conquered by the Poles after the Mongol invasion and treated like dirt for centuries. All through that horrid time they preserved their identity as Russian, but when the Polish state was removed from the map, bitter Polish academics pushed the tale that these people were somehow separate from Russians, i.e. Russia had no right to it's retaken territory. This new foreign composed identity was forced on them by both carrot and stick in the Austrian Empire, that occupied Galicia...leading to concentration camps for those who resisted it in WWI. And the saddest part of the tragedy was when the Soviets founded a Ukrainian republic, lending undeserved credence to this farce. There is no wonder the country is such a schizophrenic failure. They have no clear identity and their recent history is nothing but sniveling shame. What is really the difference between groveling before Nazi invaders or groveling before Nato invaders? Not much, and the end is the same.
roza shanina , Jul 23 2019 0:55 utc | 44
Holodomor link that works
Piotr Berman , Jul 23 2019 1:38 utc | 46
I think over 20% of Ukraine's population is "not Ukrainian".

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 22 2019 21:59 utc | 28

It is quite complicated. For example, Zelensky himself had to brush up on his Ukrainian to be able to run a campaign, which he managed to do with his talents and scripts. His first language is Russian, and ancestry... Khazarian? If I recall, he shares first language, hometown and ancestry with Kolomoysky who was also his employer. What I am trying to say is that national identification is fluid in this region. You may have Russian nationalists who speak Ukrainian dialect at home, Ukrainian nationalists with rather incomplete knowledge of "their language" and many other combinations. That said, Ukrainian is a separate language that may be hard to understand by someone who knows only Polish or only Russian (but rather intelligible if you know both).

Occasionally I follow news on RusNext.ru, a news site that seems to be run by Donbass supporters who fluently translate from Ukrainian and, I guess, use Ukrainian words here and there.

BTW, the history of Ukraine is quite complicated, including "Polish Conquest" that in actuality happened as very complex cleaving and coalescing of fragmented states with key dynasties leaving no descendants BOTH in Poland and the Kingdom of Halich thus leaving both to the rule of a Hungarian king, to be later partitioned between his two daughters, while the less populated part of Ukraine was taken over by Lithuanians who had hard time defending their holdings from Tatars etc. After that, the polity of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted Polish as the common language of nobility, so most of the "cruel Polish lords" that Ukrainians fought with in 17th century were of Ruthenian (Russian?) origin, some claiming descent from Rurik (i.e. from the common dynasty of Rus lands). Compare with Irish and Scottish nobility adopting a Saxon-French mix as their vernacular (now known as English).

juliania , Jul 23 2019 1:44 utc | 47
I was just discovering the importance of internet world news information when the Maidan crisis unfolded, and many Ukrainians were putting photos and videos on various blogs about the horrible events leading up to and following the coup. Russia has made huge strides since - but we cannot forget that ordinary people who had the ability to send out information as it happened were to be highly praised for doing so. It wasn't sophisticated, I remember in one city in Donbass it was simply someone filming as he walked along the street, showing bodies on the street corner, the official Ukraine military speeding through the streets - vivid shots of buildings on fire, a protest by a woman with a toddler at a speechgiving occasion. Unforgettable.

Ukraine should be proud of being the historic heart of Russia itself, the place where the State began. That's what Putin is talking about, and even more than Crimea Kiev is the historical homeland capital city for all Russians; it's part of their heritage. It's as if separatists in the US got themselves embedded in New York City and declared their independence of the rest of the country, being more aligned with Canada. (Oh, and everyone in that northern area now had to speak French.)

Anything can happen, I guess.

Jackrabbit , Jul 23 2019 1:51 utc | 48
bevin

cheap racist cracks

Wikipedia tells us that Jews are 0.2% of the population in Ukraine.

'Jewish' is not a race. It's a religion. Do you think that Israel is a country for semetic people ? LOL. No, it's a theocracy.

Ukraine is being run by the US and NATO, the Empire. No. Ukraine is being run by it's West-leaning leadership and US/NATO is partnered with that leadership. I'm suggesting that Jews are among the most reliably pro-Western people in Ukraine. After all, the "Empire" that you refer to is known as the "Anglo-Zionist Empire".

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Leads me to wonder if the State Department's recent global antisemitism efforts are mostly aimed at Ukraine.

If Ukraine itself made such efforts/expenditures it might would draw a backlash from the Ukrainian people. So the US does it and slyly declares it to be global so no one notices that it's directed at certain countries (mostly Ukraine?) that have Jewish leadership that's backed by US/NATO.

As part of the effort to take over Ukraine, US/NATO forged an anti-Russian alliance that included the anti-Jewish extreme-right in Ukraine as described by Ukraine and the "Politics of Anti-Semitism" (2014) :

The US and the EU are supporting the formation of a coalition government integrated by Neo-Nazis which are directly involved in the repression of the Ukrainian Jewish community.
. . .
Within the Western media, news coverage of the Neo-Nazi threat to the Jewish community in Ukraine is a taboo. There is a complete media blackout: confirmed by Google News search ... What is not mentioned is that these "radical elements" supported and financed by the West are Neo-Nazis who are waging a hate campaign against Ukraine's Jewish community.
. . .
According to the JP
[Jerusalem Post] , the issue is one of "transition", which will be resolved once a new government is installed .
"Despite his [Likhashov's] optimism fear pervades the local Jewish community, as it does the entire Ukraine, during the transition period."
No doubt Jews would not feel safe with rightists leading the government so arrangements were made (Democracy Works! LOL). We can surmise that the US State Dept has now formalized this with funding for a propaganda campaign that seeks to change their views and/or political slush fund to ensure election of Jewish candidates to high office?

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

Lozion , Jul 23 2019 2:10 utc | 50
Acar@39 The Globalists/Zionists Good 'Ole Pale of (re)Settlement included Crimea, home of the Karaites, hence manipulation of the Rusyns, and Neo-fascist Galicians & Podolians. A strange ethnic Divide et Impera nexus for sure..
Lozion , Jul 23 2019 2:12 utc | 51
..not to mention a revenge of Turkic Khazars on the Slavs of Rus, circa '900..
Lozion , Jul 23 2019 2:36 utc | 52
..revenge unmade by the various Orthodoxies, pneumatically inspired ;)
Acar Burak , Jul 23 2019 2:58 utc | 53
Pneumatically?!!
Lozi9n , Jul 23 2019 3:38 utc | 54
@51

"The pneumatics ("spiritual", from Greek πνεῦμα, "spirit") were, in Gnosticism, the highest order of humans, the other two orders being psychics and hylics ("matter"). A pneumatic saw itself as escaping the doom of the material world via the transcendent knowledge of Sophia's Divine Spark within the soul."

Crux of the matter at hand..

Acar Burak , Jul 23 2019 3:47 utc | 55
I understand it as wind, but your definition is surely much more eloquent.
Paora , Jul 23 2019 4:20 utc | 56
@41 Roza Shanina

No one is disputing that famines occurred in Soviet Ukraine. These famines also occurred in Belarus and Russia. The extent to which the harsh form of collectivisation institutioned under Stalin contributed as opposed to climatic and other factors (Western sanctions, crop destroying pests etc) is a matter for debate. Grover Furr argues the latter forcefully in 'Blood Lies' (2014). The term "Holodomor" refers to an intentional policy of genocide against the "Ukrainian Nation" by evil Russians/Commies/Jews via intentional starvation. As bevin @32 points out, this concept originated in Nazi ideology. So yes, famine(s) occurred, but the "Holodomor" did not.

As for the author of the Counterpunch piece, Louis Proyect, he is an imperial apologist of the worst sort who delights in trolling any forum where anti-imperialists gather. If this appears to be an Ad Hominum attack, I think you have to be human to be a victim of one of those.

I also can't recommend the Van der Pijl book enough. Usually if I see a book recommended by someone who also links to a Louis Proyect article I would avoid it like the plague, but barflies please don't be discouraged! Van der Pijl is one of the premier exponents of (non-sectarian) Marxist International Relations, if you've been put off reading Marxist authors thanks to the likes of Proyect he is the perfect antidote. His "Global Rivalries - From The Cold War to Iraq" (2007) is also excellent, I would recommend you track that down if Sakwa has nothing much to add.

Global Research has an extract from "Flight MH17, Ukraine and the New Cold War" here:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-and-the-new-cold-war-with-russia/5638505


Jackrabbit , Jul 23 2019 4:52 utc | 57
Adding to my comments @29 and @46

TheGuardian: Who exactly is governing Ukraine? (2014)

Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Prime minister
. . .
He has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins , possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

SputnikNews (2017):

Yatsenyuk resigned in disgrace in April 2016 amid a massive corruption scandal that first broke in February, when economy minister Aivaras Abromavicius stepped down, complaining that the Yatsenyuk government was not genuinely committed to fighting corruption .

One of the many corrupt projects was Yats' border wall, which critics have said "wouldn't even stop a rabbit." LOL.
Joost , Jul 23 2019 7:03 utc | 58
The new one will be named Revealing Ukraine, and is just released. Search your torrent search engine or tracker of choice for it for a HD release. Not on youtube yet AFAIK.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jul 22 2019 20:20 utc | 15


I just downloaded but got the Russian version without subtitles. I am unable to find the English version. For those that understand Russian, the magnet link for the download is:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:cbfd33adbd1d2bf3d48aade83a60507fe9f74241
If anyone can find the English version, please post the magnet link or infohash value, but I guess it has not yet been released.
uncle tungsten , Jul 23 2019 7:06 utc | 59
jackrabbit #all

Touche sir jackrabbit, well fielded.

snake , Jul 23 2019 7:30 utc | 60
by: bevin @ 32 < i am particularly interested to know the source of that 1932-1933 Holodomor propaganda.. .. claiming, not merely alleging, the genocidal deaths of 32 million Ukrainians.. Seems to me these fake claims that appear everywhere, have generally the same general sources, but are leaked at different places, in different formats, by different faces.. .. ?

I would like to see if it is possible to prove the source to be a coordinated amalgam of persons, and more particularly I am looking for the individual names that produce fake propaganda for a living, where did they study, who trained them, who hired them and so on.. Seems to me preparing, engineering or delivering fake anything that causes, or leads to war and death and destruction is a crime against humanity (CAH) with universal application because CAHs infringe inalienable human rights. There is a great need to make functional, on a world wide basis, the ICC.. Additionally the ICC cases have the potential to deliver the truth to History.

Iran, Russian, North Korea and China are positioned to impose ICC court jurisdiction, Nuclear Non Weapon Proliferation, and 3 vetos required to overrule the findings and mandates of a majority determination of the UN Security Council on all leaders and all nations and ruling bodies in the world. War, and in fact the decimation and destruction of the universe, is possible because these holes in the enforceable rule by law system exist. Fixing these three holes could have a massive long term effect on the peace and income distribution throughout the entire globe.

A forth such thing would be to internationalize all resources in the world, and to allocate ownership to them based on population and finally, the most important change of all, would be to internationalize education.. to grant one degree for all undergraduate education based on international subject matter examinations ( does not matter where or how the knowledge to pass is obtained, so universities and tutors can still play a massive part in instructing the masses), and one professional degree in law, one in medicine and one in engineering.. everyone would have to pass examinations and prove fluency in at least three culturally different, geographically different languages, and prove competency in mathematics at the differential and integral calculus level to be eligible to sit for an undergraduate degree and lawyers, doctors, scientist and engineers would be eligible to practice anywhere in the world, subject only to credential free, local regulation imposed because of local experience. Local regulation <= not supported by local experience would be overturned. None of this requires, demands, or needs a king or a president, it just needs to be a part of the human experience in the earth environment.

PJB , Jul 23 2019 8:20 utc | 62
Great summary b.
Needed somebody to just spell it out.

I recall watching the 2014 crisis and civil war in real time. Felt WW-III was upon us. Couldn't believe the outright lies of all Western media and was the straw that broke the back of any remaining faith I had in NYT, The Guardian, BBC, ABC (Australian) etc. The Odessa Massacre was biggest turning point for me.http://stormcloudsgathering.com/the-odessa-massacre-what-really-happened/

There's far more evidence Ukraine shot down MH17 than the Donbas rebels did. Go to www.consortiumnews.com and search 'MH17'

https://consortiumnews.com/?s=MH17

Talking with friends something has shifted for the average Joe and Jane. In 2014, if I presented evidence against the official Western Ministry of Truth (yeah see the typo but seems worth leaving) on Ukraine I'd get a righteous backlash and called a Putin apologist etc. These days there's blank inward stare of cognitive dissonance, subtle agreement and desire to change topic. Such is the nature of Stockholm Syndrome.

therobin , Jul 23 2019 8:59 utc | 63
@21 David Park, @26 c1ue, @32 bevin, @34 Ghost Ship, @41 roza shanina, @54 Paora, @58 snake

My understanding is that of Paora and bevin; there were famines in the Soviet Union, including in Ukraine. The Holodomor myth, if not started there, was massively promoted in the 30s by ... drumroll ... the Hearst empire. That alone should tell you something of its reliability. Proyect's piece is interesting, but it doesn't touch on the Western creation of the "Holodomor," the myth itself of the Soviet genocide aimed at Ukrainians.

Unfortunately, I'm unable right now to put my hands/keyboard on a good reference for this. If I'm able to locate one, I'll put it in a comment in an open thread.

Note to snake: not 32 million, but around 5-7 million, probably laughable in itself. (A reference I found for the Ukraine SSR in the 1930s indicates that the population grew during the 1930-33 period, but that should probably be read with great care. It would probably require a study in itself.)

* * * *

On another, but not entirely irrelevant matter, I've always found this wikipedia entry to be vastly entertaining. It gives me a good chuckle to think of Ukrainization -- the promotion of Ukrainian language and culture -- as a communist plot. (It's not a perfect analogy, but it's close enough for a laugh, considering the present.) (And yes, I know it's Wikipedia, but their prejudices lean generally in the other direction.)

Mykola Skrypnyk , and Ukrainization in the Soviet Union

CalDre , Jul 23 2019 9:48 utc | 64
The extreme right-wing politicians, who gained notoriety after the Maidan coup, prohibited the use of the Russian language which more than 50% of the Ukrainians speak.
That's a bald-faced lie. Russian is still spoken in large parts of Ukraine, including Odessa. The main tourist attraction in Odessa, a beach community known as Arcadia, still uses the Russian word at its entrance. Street signs are still in Russian. People speak Russian.

The only thing is they made Ukrainian the official language. Everyone must learn it. It is the same in Russia - everyone must learn Russian, even in Chechnya. It is in the nature of a country to have a universal language whereby everyone in the country may communicate. There is nothing whatsoever radical or even unusual about this.

Stop spreading hate and lies. This is utter nonsense.

As to Yanukovych, he was widely hated by everyone for his total corruption. Even Russians. I lived in Ukraine at that time - mostly in Sevastopol, which was then 90+% Russian (and of course now is part of Russia). Everybody hated him and thought he was utterly corrupt and stole from the people. His thugs would literally walk into a private business with guns and tell the owner "I am buying half your business for $50, here are the papers, sign them now". That is how he operated. Of course they did not want the L'viv folks staging a coup, but the hatred for the corrupt Yanukovych was truly national.

You don't do anyone any favors by publishing lies.

CE , Jul 23 2019 9:56 utc | 65
All those who say that Zelenski is a puppet or front for Kolomoiski should remember that a certain VV Putin came to power as a puppet or front for Boris Berezovski. And we all know how that (BB) ended. So let's hope for the best - can't get much worse anyway. And Zelenski seems to have acted very smartly so far. Good luck to him - he'll need it!
Jen , Jul 23 2019 10:10 utc | 66
It's my understanding that those Ukrainians who most fervently believe in the Holodomor (that the Soviet govt under Joseph Stalin deliberately targeted ethnic Ukrainians with famine and starvation) live in that part of the modern Ukraine that was under fascist Polish rule in the 1930s.

From my own reading, the famines of the early 1930s affected large parts of eastern Ukraine across southen European Russia into Kazakhstan.

The issue though is not so much the details of what actually occurred then as in the creation of a lie that deliberately equates Nazis with Soviets and thus Nazism with Communism, and ultimately socialism. If Nazism led to the Holocaust, then Communism and socialism must be demonstrated to have resulted in equally great horrors such as mass famines, starvation or incarcerating people in concentration camps on the basis of their religion. The current demonization of the Chinese govt over its supposed treatment of Falun Gong followers or Uyghurs follows this pattern.

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 10:50 utc | 69
> Half the population speaks Russian as its first language.

83% according to US research in 2008 chart by Gallups

article

kabobyak , Jul 23 2019 11:26 utc | 70
CalDre @ 64

Accusing b of "spreading hate and lies"? There's plenty of sources documenting the Ukrainian laws passed since 2014 prohibiting or restricting Russian language in various sectors, including official use, public education, even in films. b was correct in his assessment, and I have no idea where the "hate" accusation came from. I would normally not link to the awful Telegraph of UK, but I assume this story from just three months ago isn't fake news. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/25/ukraine-passes-law-against-russian-language-official-settings/

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 11:40 utc | 71
> The only thing is they made Ukrainian the official language.

...and the ONLY one. ...and the language undeveloped, that lacked words for many modern realities, from helicopter to condom, so they all had to be invented rashly.

> It is the same in Russia - everyone must learn Russian, even in Chechnya.

In Russia, Crimean Turks can teach their children, in beginner's school, in k'yrymchi language. It is one of three official languages of Crimean region. In Ukraine it was impossible then and it is impossible still.

> It is in the nature of a country to have a universal language

...that is only native to less than 20% of the population? Well, it is indeed a nature - of OCCUPIED countries. Like, Norman invasion into England, when elites had one language and serfs - another. And serf's language was slowly suffocated and replaced by foreign language of occupying elites. "If to live in comfort you have to rename every major city and tear down every ,ajor monument - you cam to live on someone's else land".

> whereby everyone in the country may communicate.

If that was the intention - then the language native to population's 83% would become official, like it is in Ireland. But not in Ukraine.

> As to Yanukovych, he was widely hated by everyone for his total corruption.

He was. So you say this makes illegal coup less illegal and bandit Poroshenko less bandit. How exactly? Or you just throw in irrelevant emotional hitpiece to accuse of "spreading lies" by which you mean "not spreading your favorite grievances" ?

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 11:49 utc | 73
> Yanukovych.... had no choice but to refuse [Deep and Comprehensive EuroAssociation]

But he did not. He asked to amend it, to re-negotiate it. He asked to add there compensation clause from EU to Ukrainian industries. Russia also asked for it to be re-negotiated, but Russia wanted re-negotiation from scratch into a trilateral treaty. Yanukovich only wanted money to support Ukrainian economic until his re-election.

Bad for him, but money he asked for "coincidently" were the same, as money Europe promised to Ukraine for removing of Nuclear weapon and Chernobyl nuclear power. When Ukraine delivered and asked for money - the 2nd maidan (2004) happened and both Kuchma and his heir Yanukovich flew down the drain. When Yanukovich was allowed to the throne in 2009 he conveniently forgot about that story. But the moment he asked EU for money, albeit under pretext of Association and markets, the 3rd maidan unleashed and Yanukovich went down the drain again. Guess, he had to learn his lesson without repeats?..

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 11:54 utc | 74
> Not so much Russia dissuading Kiev as Kiev taking an inordinate length of time to realise the blatantly obvious.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Jul 22 2019 20:03 utc | 12

Well, it took Russia to really START implementing trade inhibition, there were few rather vibrant "scandals" in spring and summer 2014 with Russia banning this or that food/alcohol form Ukraine, quoting safety hazards, to make Yanukovich understand this time it is for real.

Most probably Yanukovich was like Saakashvili in 2008, totally programmed that "Russia would not date" because "Russia is secretly ruled by Jews/NeoLibs/Washington/whatever". Russia dared. And then Yanukovich understood he was not selected to be a hero bringing Ukraine to Europe, but a scapegoat to absorb the fallout.

gzon , Jul 23 2019 12:22 utc | 75
So

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language

is biased also ? It isn't my argument at all, but I do understand that language is very important in terms of identity. There is quite a lot of history in that article to take into account, or argue over I suppose. As it is probably the "go to" reference for people outside of the region wanting to understand the question of languages in Ukraine, its content is relevant.

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 12:24 utc | 76
> I remember in one city in Donbass it was simply someone filming as he walked along the street, showing bodies on the street corner, the official Ukraine military speeding through the streets - vivid shots of buildings on fire

Posted by: juliania | Jul 23 2019 1:44 utc | 47

Most probably, Mariupol 2014-05-09. People wanted to celebrate V-Day, but "democratic" Oleg Lyashko and his "men in black" drove in at attacked demonstration. Local police tried to protect citizens and was ambushed in their own HQ (that very burning house), making last stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FtT0bRDN6E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JZSfHri-wc
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Victory_Day,_2014#Mariupol

"In the 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election he led his party to win 22 seats."
"In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election Lyashko lost his parliamentary seat"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Lyashko

----------

One may also look for Olena Bilozerka, 2013 German "best international blogger." She is open and vocal part of Right Sector, though allegations were she is inflating political issues to hide marauding issues. She blogged back in 2014-02-16 about "next day" meeting of Right Sector representatives with Merkel "to report about implementation of our part of agreement and to be informed by Merkel about implementing her part" and regardless of "checking the watches" about armed assault upon government on 18.02, which indeed happened and was success.

Being open and vocal Nazi she then published many photo and video that were "omitted" by free world's free media.

Albeit as of now her English blog has much less content than her Ukrainian blog https://bilozerska-eng.livejournal.com/2014/
https://bilozerska.livejournal.com/2014/

vk , Jul 23 2019 12:30 utc | 77
This "how many people did Communism killed" question is tiresome. As I've already commented here in previous posts, there are essentially three methods an historian can determine if a genocide happened:

1) mass graves (this requires archaeology);
2) written contemporary accounts, and
3) census

In the "Holodomor" case, we only have "2", the most popular one in the West being that Welsh journalist who travelled to the USSR that time and, based on anecdotal evidence, "covered" the famine.

Wikipedia's article about the "Holodomor" only mentions one source mentioning concrete numbers: Wheatcroft, a rather obscure Australian academic who, to his merit, at least made up the effort to talk with people who had access to the Soviet archives.

The quoted list of his article clearly indicates Wheatcroft bases his numbers on indirect data. He uses the 1937 census in relation to 1926; in another article, he uses the quantity of grain stock in 1932. I could go on, but the important thing here is that this guy doesn't use any extraordinary sources. He certainly didn't go to the Ukraine to do archaeology. The Ukrainians themselves probably didn't do it either, because, so far, we have no accounts of mass graves in the region.

Famines were common in the pre-industrial world. They occured often in the ancient world -- where cities and villages literally disappeared in a matter of decades because of one bad crop and/or one plague (plagues are a side-effect of sedentarism). The often occured in the feudal world. They specially happened in tsarist Russia, which has a very peculiar and hostile climate and land composition for agriculture (only 15% of the USSR's territory was viable for agriculture even in the industrial era). They certainly are not a communist invention. We must avoid the "Belle Époque syndrome", that is, adopt the illusion late tsarist Russia was a paradise that was destroyed by evil Bolsheviks. Tsarist Russia was a very brutal world, were peasants died like flies every day: Gogol (who lived in Ukrainian territory) wrote a very funny and politically charged novel about it ("Dead Souls").

Wheatcroft uses the 1920s demographic tendency in order to infer "excess deaths" in the USSR in 1932, but he misses the bigger picture: you have to take into account Russian demographic movements in the long term, taking into consideration the cyclic famines. Just to crop a short period from 1926-1932 is scientifically dishonest.

Yes, forced collectivization probably caused excess deaths in 1932 -- but it's impossible to calculate how much more it caused in relation to a "normal" famine. Just because a famine happened during the Soviet era doesn't mean it was caused 100% because of socialism. Constant excess food production is a very recent phenomenon in human History, to state famines are the exception and not the rule is contemporary bias.

It is very unlikely the 1932 famine was an extraordinary famine. The 1937 census registered a population growth in relation to 1926. This alone discards genocide, because, even though excess deaths ocurred (as is the rule in famines), that meant women still had time and resources to biologically reproduce above the population replacement levels. Worst case scenario, this growth happened because birth rates were excessive in the urban areas at the expense of the rural areas -- an unlikely scenario, since in this case, we would register mass migration from the rural area to the urban area (because the hypothesis is that the famine was artificial, so the grains would be in the cities): they would either mass migrate or die trying, in which case we would have mass graves.

Mass graves are the decisive evidence for a genocide, indeed any mass extermination, because that would mean death was sudden. When the death process is slow and not synchronized, people have the time to bury/cremate their dead. That is the case even with some plagues (e.g. Antonine Plague). Mass graves are an indication people were killed more or less at the same time, in an artificial way, and in large quantities (since proper burials are expensive). In a deprived economy like the USSR, it is very unlikely all those bodies would be properly buried, let alone cremated, was a mass extermination taken place.

The holy grail of evidence for a genocide/mass extermination for any historian is when a witness points the place of the event and then archaeology finds out a mass grave. This evidently didn't happen in the case of "Holodomor".

Note: Gorbachev is a Russian who was born and raised in a village that borders modern Ukraine. His grandparents and parents were victims of the 1932 famine (they all survived). They continued committed with the Revolution and, according to Gorbachev's own accounts, he's was not raised believing the 1932 famine was exceptional.

vk , Jul 23 2019 12:40 utc | 78
About the "Stalin is a genocidal psychopath" question: it's funny, because forced collectivization was one of the few points where he and Trotsky agreed.

Whatever happened in macroeconomic reforms after Stalin consolidated power was a collective work, not the designs of only one man. And, although we can argue against the means, the fact was that they were successful: the USSR rose from the ruins of a second tier imperial power (late tsarist Russia) to a global superpower.

Ralph , Jul 23 2019 12:43 utc | 79
To understand the most important fact of what happened to Ukraine and why, you need to know about the yank neocon PNAC, which trumps (excuse the pun) all: The Project for the New American Century, and the original neocon (jew) wolfowitz doctrine, as revealed in the NYT in 1992: www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/us-strategy-plan-calls-for-insuring-no-rivals-develop.html

Russia at the moment is correctly perceived as the main opponent to the usa, china too as upcoming, in line with the above, & PNAC is part of trying to keep Russia in its place: 'part of the American mission will be "convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests."' And 'to deter any nation or group of nations from challenging American primacy'. And 'a world in which there is one dominant military power whose leaders "must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."' Note 'regional' insofar as it concerns Russia wrt ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century - still in play.

Also this is why the USG used Maidan (with at least $5 bn - said nuland/jewland, married to the co-founder of PNAC kagan, another jew) against Russia, to cause it problems and to be a thorn in the flesh.

Another important fact is the roman catholic church attack on Russia through ukraine & the split of the church in ukraine from the Russian Orthodox Church.

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 12:44 utc | 80
> there are essentially three methods an historian can determine if a genocide happened

Four.

There can be comparison of available data in adjacent regions. In this specific case - in Poland-occupied Western Ukraine. Just "across the line".

Anecdotal evidence states it also had famine, so the famine was not anchored in USSR specific way of governing. Some rare online archives of then Poland newspapers photos report some UK delegations raising concerns, etc.

However, in USSR the famine was a state-acknowledge emergency. USSR prohibited moving foods out of Ukrainian SSR (and wheat was not the only food! everyone talks about grains, forgetting potato, fish, mushrooms, etc), broken many Western contracts to repay debts in grains (West was denying being paid in other assets and was decrying USSR savageness of refusing to export all the contracted grain with the same zeal it today decry USSR savageness of exporting at least some of grain), started importing grain from Persia (now Iran). This emergency let a lot of paper trail, which now is used to "prove" how evil Soviet government was (and, specifically, not Ukrainian SSR government but central government in Kremlin; and somehow this is stretched even further to "prove" murderous hatred being part of "Russian character").

In Poland, well, a dull matter of fact. Bad lack to be peasant, yet worst to be Ukrainian peasant. S-t happens. No paper trail - no "historic event" - no accusations. Don't try to fix famines - and you will not be accused of being part of it.

aspnaz , Jul 23 2019 13:01 utc | 81
Election apparatus is so easy to corrupt, yet people still vote! Crazy! And, so many elections have been rigged this way: People are so dumb! Why does nobody insist on independent, improved equipment? Conditioning makes people ignore the cheat under their noses.
William Gruff , Jul 23 2019 13:17 utc | 82
Recall the posters in previous threads defending the empire's color revolution attempts in Hong Kong and match the names up with posters here. Are they trying to offer defense of the empire's color revolutions in Ukraine, or do you think they are off-duty now and posting with the sincere intention of initiating open discussion? Do you honestly think you can change their minds by engaging with them and pointing out the flaws in their facts and their logic when it is their job to defend the actions of the empire?

By the way, do expect and don't be surprised when the same posters referred to above defend the empire's lawfare coup in Brazil, the attempted lawfare coup in South Africa, and the attempts to regime change Venezuela when b posts any articles on these issues.

As for holodomor, or the Maidan snipers, or the famine in China, one doesn't need details to identify fictions. One simply needs to use logic and reason. We need only question simple points if we suspect that the famine in Ukraine was a deliberate attempt to exterminate Ukrainians: Was it successfully completed, and if not then why not?

There are obviously still Ukrainians, so it wasn't successful. If we assume the famine was a deliberate attempt at extermination, then we must ask why was it stopped before it finished? Did some external factor force Stalin to call off the extermination before it was completed?

No, the famine was stopped by dramatically improved agricultural practices instituted by the Soviet Union. This cannot be reconciled with the claim that the famine was a deliberate attempt by the Soviet Union at extermination, so no matter how much we may cherish the myth of holodomor, to remain rational individuals we must let that myth go.

Too complex? Let's try the Maidan snipers: We are expected to believe that the killers were police or Berkut snipers. What was their motive? Presumably to stop the protests. If that was their motive, then why did the snipers stop sniping before dispersing the protests? If the snipers were trying to end the protests, then why did they shoot just enough to inflame further protests, but not enough to discourage the protests?

The answer is simple: The police and/or Berkut were not the Maidan snipers in Kiev. The snipers were provocateurs who intended to amplify the protests.

It is good to dig deeper into the details of all of these false narratives that we in the West have been fed, but those details are not absolutely necessary to know that the narratives are false.

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 13:19 utc | 83
> I am no specialist or anything, but I think the collectivization was a disaster and the war on the kulaks didn't help anything,

> and that lead to the Holodomor

Posted by: roza shanina | Jul 23 2019 0:35 utc | 42

1. If forced collectivization would lead to famine, there would had be no famines in 1920-s and in 1890-s, before the said collectivization but there were.

2. Before forced collectivization there were many years of attempts at unforced one. They failed for at least two reasons.

a) many of poor peasants "saw themselves temporarily embarrassed millionaires". While being target of debt sharks (kulaks, public-devourers (мироеды)) they still only imagined the life as being sole owner of their however tiny patch of soil.

b) government attempts they saw as unwarranted advantages from aliens, city-dwellers, trade partners of hated kulaks, that to be took advantage of using any loopholes. Government tried to foster grassroots kolkhoz movements by offering bound credits - seeds, fertilizers, agriculture tools. Peasants started organizing "ten men" kolkhozes in springs, taking those credits, and then dissolving kolkhozes before gathering crops. "Faked bankruptcy" in modern parley. If you can have good sides without having bad sides - why opt for bad sides too?


Specifically in Ukraine it could also be boosted by the "national character" formed as dwellers of centuries-long battle ground between Poland, Russia and Turkey. No positive long-term planning, everything for instant profits disregarding any consequences. Any government are occupants and bandits, co-operating with them is futile and silly. We can see it today marching over once most rich and developed Soviet Republic. Why couldn't the same happen in 1930-s ?


3. However forced collectivization did achieved a lot. Remember the UK, where "sheep ate people", for example. Remember latifundists in Latin America. It is largely the same!

a) hugely increased labor efficiency in "village to city" trade metrics. "товарное зерно"
b) hugely increased labor efficiency in "men / area" ratio. Use of mechanic tractors and harvesters, etc. Unemployment among "just my hands" peasantry.
c) increased "capital concentration" provided for use of fertilizer, poisons, etc. Which contributed to the prior point.
d) now unemployed peasants moved to cities, populating newly built factories. This process was already going in 1900-s but much slower then. Emergent industrialization in the wake of WW2 - and a very successful one.
e) end of rural famines. One of the reason 1931 famine is so hyped - it was the last in the row. Would there be a comparable famine for example in 1970-s - and for political purposes it would had been much more useful against USSR. But there were none. "Golodomor" was the last famine, so it became the focal point.
e) end of city famines. Where atomized peasant families could not sustain even a horse or a cow, one of famines reasons, joint companies (kolkhozes) just like huge private agri-companies in UK or Argentina, relied upon chemistry and mechanizations, thus needed to trade with cities, thus were supplying cities with food. All the champions of Golodomor somehow overlook city famines that were cruel in early USSR in winters.

And one more quirk is almost total lack of photo-evidence behind "Golodomor".
When articles/books are illustrated, it is with photos from 1920-s famine in USSR or in USA, misattributed.
Allegedly, it is because in Soviet cruel diktatura even NKVD death squads could not make those photos even for secret important reports.
Reportedly it is because victims of "Goldomor" were dying "fatties", making less convincing images. The theories were made explaining why it was so, however there seems to be no any other famine known where those theories worked and people dying of hunger were abnormally thick.

Arioch , Jul 23 2019 13:26 utc | 84
> Do you honestly think you can change their minds by engaging with them....?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 23 2019 13:17 utc | 83

Public debates are not for opponents, they are for public.

Internet debates are not only for participants, they are also for those who would google this page many years later

William Gruff , Jul 23 2019 13:40 utc | 85
To Arioch @84, I apologize. You are absolutely correct. Leaving trolls' posts unchallenged gives the casual reader the impression that those posts are unassailable; nevertheless, I have been attempting to limit my engagement with the trolls to simply pointing them out. Posters such as yourself, vk, karlof1, etc who provide detailed and historically accurate corrections to the false narratives are necessary for the edification of lurkers and casual readers. I just hope that you don't measure the effectiveness of your posts by whether or not you change the trolls' minds.
Arioch , Jul 23 2019 14:00 utc | 86
> I have been attempting to limit my engagement with the trolls to simply pointing them out

This can really work well with people sincerely lost by massive propaganda, people who succumbed to illusion they know, why they do not.

Wikipedia: The Socratic method, also known as method of Elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions. It is a dialectical method, involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict themselves in some way, thus weakening the defender's point. This method is named after the Classical Greek philosopher Socrates and is introduced by him in Plato's Theaetetus as midwifery (maieutics) because it is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding.

Sincere person, being guided by questions, would start researching and analyzing. And would not feel coerced.

But you know, trolls just ignore the questions and keeps hammering talking points by infinitely going back and repeating them "from starting point".

Avoiding positive argumentation, avoiding claiming something and limiting ourselves to questioning their weak points, we help them to create another impression: they have a bad theory when we have no theory at all. They are content with it.

So, putting out competing interpretation is no less important than showing their own unhonesty.

t people were able to look past the mistake and not overlook the van der pijl book. Thank you for letting me know of Mr. Proyect's reputation.

pantaraxia , Jul 23 2019 15:13 utc | 90
Missing from the comments regarding Ukrainian/Russian dynamics is recognition of the numerous attempts (dating back to the 17th century) of the Russification of the Ukraine, first by the Russian Empire and then by the Soviets.

Russification of Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

ex:

( a reason for so many Russian-speaking Ukrainians??)

and from: Ukrainization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization#Early_1930s_(reversal_of_Ukrainization_policies)

In the regions of southern Russian SFSR (North Caucasus and eastern part of Sloboda Ukraine included into RSFSR) Ukrainization was effectively outlawed in 1932.[18] Specifically, the December 14, 1932 decree "On Grain Collection in Ukraine, North Caucasus and the Western Oblasts" by the VKP(b) Central Committee and USSR Sovnarkom stated that Ukrainization in certain areas was carried out formally, in a "non-Bolshevik" way, which provided the "bourgeois-nationalist elements" with a legal cover for organizing their anti-Soviet resistance. In order to stop this, the decree ordered in these areas, among other things, to switch to Russian all newspapers and magazines, and all Soviet and cooperative paperwork. By the autumn of 1932 (beginning of a school year), all schools were ordered to switch to Russian. In addition the decree ordered a massive population swap: all "disloyal" population from a major Cossack settlement, stanitsa Poltavskaya was banished to Northern Russia, with their property given to loyal kolkhozniks moved from poorer areas of Russia.[19] in the 1937 Soviet Census compared to the 1926 First All-Union Census of the Soviet Union.[18]

This perhaps explains the predominance of Russian in eastern Ukraine.

[Jul 22, 2019] MH17 as a pretext for NATO to "recover the plane and the victims" makes sense

Notable quotes:
"... If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first, and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site, thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion. ..."
"... If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've been covering up their own tracks. ..."
Jul 22, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

somebody , Jul 22 2019 9:16 utc | 114

Malaysia explains why it has a different opinion on MH17

via John Helmer

MH17 as a pretext for NATO to "recover the plane and the victims" makes sense.

dh-mtl , Jul 22 2019 15:26 utc | 158

somebody | Jul 22 2019 9:16 utc | 114

Thanks for the link to the John Helmer article.

If I understand this article correctly, MH17 was not just a Ukrainian operation, but a NATO operation, with the objective of using it as a false-flag operation to justify the launching a 9000 troop NATO invasion to capture the rebel-held territories and Crimea. This operation was averted at the last minute because the Malaysians got to the crash site first, and signed an agreement with the Donbass rebels to take the black-boxes and secure the site, thus removing the excuse for the invasion (protect the evidence from destruction), and because the Germans would not go along with a NATO invasion.

If this is true, it goes a long way to explain why the countries involved in the investigation have so vehemently been covering up for the Ukranian Nazis. Rather, they've been covering up their own tracks.

[Jul 18, 2019] Russian Nationals Falsely Charged with Downing MH17 - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Notable quotes:
"... Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft "indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986." ..."
"... By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or scrapped," adding: ..."
"... "The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed forces." ..."
"... A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten. ..."
"... Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings. ..."
Jul 18, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Russian Nationals Falsely Charged with Downing MH17 By Stephen Lendman Global Research, June 20, 2019 Region: Russia and FSU Theme: History , Law and Justice , Media Disinformation In-depth Report: UKRAINE REPORT

Not a shred of credible evidence suggests Russia or its nationals had anything to do with downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) on July 17, 2014 in eastern Ukraine airspace, all passengers and crew members perishing at the time.

So-called Joint Investigation Team (JIT) member countries Australia, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Ukraine (US sponsored Kiev regime) in cahoots with the US and NATO falsely claimed otherwise. Russia and Malaysia were excluded from the probe.

Based on its own investigation, Russia's Defense Ministry earlier revealed that the serial number obtained from fragments of the Soviet-era Buk missile used to down the aircraft "indicate(d) that the engine was manufactured in the Soviet Union back in 1986."

By 2011, missiles manufactured in that year "were withdrawn from service, written off or scrapped," adding:

"The sole reason why the JIT stays quiet about the origin of the missile engine manufactured in 1986 is the missile more than likely belonged to the Ukrainian armed forces."

Clearly Russia had nothing to do with downing MH17, nor did Donbass freedom fighters. The incident had US and Kiev fingerprints all over it.

A classic false flag, a longstanding US specialty, MH17's downing occurred in Ukrainian airspace at a time regime forces waging war on Donbass were being soundly beaten.

Five years later, the Big Lie about what happened persists, ignoring what's obvious. What possible reason would Russia have to down a commercial aircraft anywhere?

The Obama regime and Kiev putchists it installed clearly benefit from blaming Russia for what no credible evidence suggests it had anything to do with.

Yet on Wednesday, the JIT falsely blamed three Russian nationals -- Igor Girkin (connected to its Federal Security Service), military intelligence officials Sergei Dubinsky and Oleg Pulatov , along with pro-Moscow Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko for downing MH17.

Placed on an international want list, a show trial with them in absentia is scheduled for March 9, 2020, the above individuals falsely charged with murder.

A JIT spokesperson said

Malaysian Airlines MH17 Downing Big Lie Resurfaces

"(w)e are still gathering new data for investigation, because we will start prosecuting now, but the investigation will continue."

Dutch chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the following:

"Today, we will send out international arrest warrants for the four suspects that we will prosecute," adding:

"They will also be placed on national and international wanted lists. Because of that, we (are) reveal(ing) their full names show(ing) you their pictures" -- despite no credible evidence of their involvement in what happened.

Russia categorically rejects the fabricated JIT accusations, calling them "absolutely baseless." No credible evidence supports them.

Excluding Russia from the JIT probe let its member countries "fabricate evidence," credible information Russian investigators uncovered separately excluded from JIT findings.

No Russian missile crossed the Ukrainian border, its Defense Ministry stressed, the missile used given to Ukraine in 1986, identified by its serial number, as explained above.

The above-named JIT suspects are convenient patsies, wanting them and Russia blamed for what the US and Kiev were responsible for.

... ... ...

Source: NYT

Russophobic NYT editors jumped on the falsified JIT accusations. Turning truth on its head, they said the following:

"In Vladimir Putin's Kremlin, lying -- willfully, methodically, shamelessly -- is the default response to any accusations of wrongdoing" -- a longstanding US, NATO, Israeli specialty, not how Putin's Russia operates.

It's also standard procedure for the Times and other establishment media, featuring managed news misinformation and disinformation, suppressing hard truths on major issues, especially geopolitical ones.

The Times: "Russia's involvement (in downing MH17) has long been clear" -- a bald-faced Big Lie.

The Times: "(A) Russian missile launcher belonging to an active Russian military unit was driven into eastern Ukraine and used to fire a Buk missile at the Malaysian jumbo jet" -- another bald-faced Big Lie.

Because of its global reach, the Times is the closest thing to an official US ministry of propaganda, carpet-bombing its readers with falsified official narrative rubbish in lieu of high journalistic standards the way they're supposed to be.

The Times and other establishment media abandoned them long ago, giving yellow journalism they feature a bad name.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

Award-winning author Stephen Lendman lives in Chicago. He can be reached at lendmanstephen@sbcglobal.net . He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). His new book as editor and contributor is titled "Flashpoint in Ukraine: US Drive for Hegemony Risks WW III." http://www.claritypress.com/LendmanIII.html Visit his blog site at sjlendman.blogspot.com .

The original source of this article is Global Research Copyright © Stephen Lendman , Global Research, 2019

[Jul 13, 2019] Faked Tape Released by Ukrainian Intelligence Within Hours of MH17 Shoot Down Shows that the Attack was Premeditated and Committed by Ukrainian Forces by : veganmark

Notable quotes:
"... I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files ..."
"... They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev. ..."
"... I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident. ..."
"... if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to bamboozle the world with a doctored tape? ..."
"... The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that "this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack. ..."
"... An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?), lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17. ..."
"... We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot down on the rebels? ..."
"... The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility. ..."
"... The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day ..."
"... The JIT readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane, as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.) ..."
"... The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants. ..."
"... The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing, it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration. ..."
Jul 13, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

veganmark on Thu, 07/11/2019 - 12:17pm

Within hours of the shoot down of MH17, Ukrainian intelligence released a video purporting to show that pro-Russian rebels had shot down the plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw&feature=youtu.be

Subsequent analysis demonstrated that the video was a concocted fraud. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T34AB6CImTE&feature=youtu.be

Note this comment by "Valerie1" below - the kill shot:

I too am a studio engineer who has worked with DAWs since their inception for digital recording. The splicing is obvious...and the splicing alone is enough to prove that Kiev turned in fake audio files.

Real conversations do not have overlapping samples/soundbytes and splices people. This video proves it hands down. Kiev faked the files.

They turned them in 25 minutes after the plane went down therefore they were prepared in advance. In other words, it was premeditated intentional murder. It was not the rebels and it was not an accident. It was Kiev.

I have read that the video was made public 5 hours later - not 25 minutes. Regardless, this strongly suggests that the doctored tape had been in preparation BEFORE the incident.

In any case, if Ukraine were blameless in the incident, why would their security services have immediately attempted to bamboozle the world with a doctored tape?

Here's an excerpt from an unpublished essay I wrote about 4 years ago (unpublished because I presumed it would be met with mockery or indifference at DKos) that is pertinent:

Also curious is the fact that Ukrainian air traffic control directed MH-17 out of its usual path, so that it passed over rebel-controlled area near Donetz. This is not known to have happened before. Immediately after the shoot-down, the Ukrainian secret police (SBU) seized the air traffic control records for the flight, and have never released them. The new flight path took the plane directly over the base of noted rebel commander Igor Bezler ("Bes"). Within five hours after the crash, SBU released a video tape in which Bes appeared to be confirming that his forces had just shot down a plane; comments by other rebels on the tape seem to imply that this plane was MH-17. Subsequent analysis indicated that Bes' comments had been taped the day previous to the crash, and that he was referring to shoot down of a Ukrainian military plane; this was then spliced to tape taken after the shoot down of MH-17, in which rebels referred to the crash site.

https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points...

https://www.21cir.com/2014/07/mh-17-false-flag-fake-video-made-before-cr...

The Ukrainian secret police are said to have a particular animosity toward Commander Bes. How curious that, a day after SBU obtains a tape of Bes referring to a plane shoot down, MH-17 is mysteriously routed right over Bes' base - and then SBU tries to frame Bes within hours of the tragedy by releasing the misleading tape. Czech analyst Vladimir Suchan states that "this almost could be a smoking gun" of a false flag attack.

With respect to deception by the Ukrainian government, the investigation by BND [German intelligence] indicated that photos supplied by Kiev "have been manipulated"; however, they did not indicate what photos they were referring to. In any case, if Ukraine was blameless in this affair, why wouldn't scrupulous honesty be their best policy? At this point, the balance of evidence seems to point to the Ukrainian military – likely a rogue element controlled by neo-Nazis or an oligarch such as Kolomoisky (who when interviewed referred to the MH-17 shoot down as "a trifle") -- acting without knowledge of the central government, as the culprit. Parry cites several speculations regarding the motives of those involved. One theory is that the perpetrators thought that they were shooting at Putin's plane returning from a recent trip to South America (he just had, but via a different route). Another possibility is that they thought they were shooting at a Russian intruder returning to Russia. But the theory that, according to Parry, is taken most seriously by elements of our intelligence community, is that the shoot-down was intended as a false flag operation which could be blamed on the rebels or Russians. (These intelligence sources believe that the Ukrainian central government was unaware of this plot.) If this is the case, then the ploy worked admirably, as the MH-17 shoot-down was used to justify turning up the intensity of sanctions imposed on Russia – and most Americans still assume as a matter of course that Russia or its rebel allies were responsible.

The most significant development since I wrote this is that the Russian-manufactured BUK whose fragments were found among the wreckage and is presumed to have shot down MH17, was shown to have been transferred to the Ukrainian SSR prior to the dissolution of the USSR, and hence must have been in the possession Ukraine when it became independent. This of course markedly strengthens the case that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the shoot down.

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/

There is however continued speculation that Ukrainian fighter jets also attacked MH17, as maintained by retired pilot Peter Haisenko.

If we take it [a hacked audio conversation] seriously, it casts an interesting light on a once popular theory that Ukrainian SU-25 jets, claimed by Russia to have tailed MH-17 ( https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/ - this is disputed by BND), fired upon it. This was supported by the observation that some of the holes in the cockpit of the MH-17 had an appearance suggestive of machine gun fire.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-...

Nonetheless, this theory cannot explain the bulk of the holes in the cockpit, and the conclusion that a BUK missile was mainly responsible for downing the plane appears sound. This hack suggests a scenario in which an SU-25 fired on the jet but was unable to bring it down, in part because, as is well known, it is difficult for such jets to fly at the 33,000 foot altitude at which MH-17 was flying. This might explain a report that the plane veered sharply before it plummeted to earth. As the jet attack had failed in its objective, a BUK missile was required to bring MH-17 down.

An audio communication between deputies of Kolomoisky and of the Ukrainian Defense Minister, allegedly hacked by the Russian Kyber Berkut cybergroup, and cited in my old essay (gosh, this hacked communication is no longer available on-line - wonder why?), lends itself to the view that Ukrainian jets first cannonaded MH17, causing it to swerve, but - because the jets were flying at too high an altitude for their design - the BUK was then employed to complete the destruction of MH17.

The fact that the fighter jet theory has received no attention from the Ukraine-organized JIT (Joint Investigation Team) tasked with investigating the shoot down is hardly surprising, since involvement of Ukrainian jets would evidently point the finger at Ukraine as the culprit. Incredibly, this UN-recognized JIT agreed up-front that Ukraine, one of the chief suspects in the tragedy, would have veto rights over the JIT's report.

https://theduran.com/joint-investigation-team-mh17-case-still-open/

We are left with a conundrum - was the attack on MH17 a conscious false flag (almost too barbaric to contemplate), or was it a bungled attempt to shoot down a plane carrying Putin back from a trip to South America - the intent being to blame the shoot down on the rebels?

The fact that, for unknown reasons, MH17 had been diverted by Ukraine air traffic control to fly right over the war zone near Commander Bes speaks for the former possibility.

The conclusion by the JIT that Russia had been responsible for the shoot down is based on an implausible Rube Goldberg scenario concocted by the "independent investigative group" Bellingcat; it is alleged that a Russian BUK had been trundled into Ukraine (German satellite intelligence has ruled this out, but Germany wasn't invited to join the JIT), fired off one BUK to take down MH17, then returned (by an illogical route) the next day. This narrative is "supported" in the main by photos and audios helpfully provided by Ukrainian intelligence, some of which have been found to be doctored. (Who wudda thunk it?!) The JIT readily accepted Bellingcat's explanation because it is in effect a kangaroo court organized by Ukraine and representing the interests of NATO. (Malaysia does not accept this explanation, as its primary motivation is to determine what actually happened to its plane, as opposed to furthering NATO's geopolitical agenda vilifying Russia.)

Whenever the Western Deep State has a false narrative it wishes to push, Bellingcat can be relied on to concoct "evidence" supporting it. It has been a key perpetrator of the hoax regarding "Assad gassing his own people". In particular, Bellingcat pushed the discredited view that Assad's forces had gassed Douma. It has also been intent on blaming Russian intelligence for the attack on the Skripals.

Roy Blakeley on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 11:19am
Interestingly

The Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamad, has called the decision by the Dutch-led investigative team to charge three Ukranians and a Russian with murder in the downing of MH17 "ridiculous" and "politically motivated." This, of course, has resulted in vigorous condemnations by the usual US sycophants.

The US, of course, values Russia as a Goldilocks enemy, technically advanced enough to be sold as a threat, thereby helping to justify a ridiculous military budget, but not economically engaged with the US to an extent that maintaining them as an enemy would seriously cut into corporate profits. Every time I look seriously into a main stream media allegation of Russian wrong doing, it turns out to be propaganda unsupported by facts. While I know what is going on, the fact that we are being continuously lied to and the facts that the msm and the "serious" politicians buy into this dreck so readily is a great source of fear and frustration.

Bob In Portland on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 3:56pm
As a reminder

I covered some of this in an earlier essay here:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/okeydoke-americans-were-supposed-get

Pluto's Republic on Fri, 07/12/2019 - 4:39pm
Thanks, Bob.

@Bob In Portland

Always good to see updates in the essays at any point in time. We're writing a history, here, as objective as we can muster.

[Jul 09, 2019] Nuland played a role in Russiaqate

Notable quotes:
"... it appears that Strzok is operating under some other authority. ..."
"... Downer walked his 'tip' over to Elizabeth Dibble, Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy. Probably the day after the meeting at the Kensington wine room. Dibble passed the 'tip' on to her boss, Victoria Nuland, European and Eurasian Affairs (EUR) Assistant Secretary of state. ..."
"... Downer/Dibble/Nuland are the evaluating agency behind the evidence that the FISA document is based on. ..."
"... Downer has to lie, eventually, about his actions in re the report. ..."
"... This is why Halper was sent back into the fray, and the weird September meeting a month or so later in a private room at the Travelers Club took place with Papadopoulos ..."
Jul 09, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

Bill refers to Bill Priestrap, the head of FBI's counter intelligence operations. Important to remember that Strzok worked for Priestrap at this point. Yet, it appears that Strzok is operating under some other authority.

Lisa Page then writes:

"Also, Andy spoke to ?????. He was out, he has a POC for you over then when you need it."

Strzok was on his way to London. My informed guess is that the ????? was CIA. POC means Point of Contact. Andy had a name of a CIA officer. The Chief of Station in London was Gina Haspel. I do not have a name for her Deputy. The nature of this case means that at least Haspel would have been witting.

The texts start again around noon Washington time, which means 4pm London time. At 13:36:19 (i.e., 1:36 pm EDT), Lisa writes:

"I worry OGC is making happy to glad changes which are nice to have but not legally necessary and which will derail this thing."

OGC refers to Office of General Counsel. What did Page fear would get "derailed?"

Strzok then writes:

Interesting fact. Guy we're about to interview was (BLANKED OUT)

... ... ...

Lisa then wrote:

Just checked yellow and there are two POCs for you from BOTH OGAs waiting there for you. Both may have already reached out.

Both OGAs? Other Government Agencies. Since there are two in question this is shorthand for CIA and NSA.

We know from a May 2019 piece by National Review, based on the Congressional interview with FBI DAD Jonathan Moffa, who was the section chief over counterintelligence analysis, that the FBI actions involved Confidential Human Sources, which were central to this so-called investigation:

The deputy assistant director at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Jonathan Moffa, was involved with the Russia–Trump investigation from the start. He was asked, in a closed-door Capitol Hill interview on August 24, 2018, to describe his role: "I was the section chief over counterintelligence analysis during the period of the election," Moffa told lawmakers and staff. "And as a result, I had analysts who reported to me who supported the full range of the FBI's counterintelligence investigations and counterespionage investigations during that period. So in a sense, if there's a Russian-election-related investigation underway in the division at that point, personnel reporting to me are a part of it."

If the CIA and NSA had solid, reliable sources on the Russian angle, we would know that by now. Instead, when you look at the weak January 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment, you see a dearth of sources. It is all analytical speculation.

Which brings me to the newest piece to drop, CrowdStrikeOut: Mueller's Own Report Undercuts Its Core Russia Meddling Claims .

Tidewater said in reply to Flavius... ,

My interpretation of the exchange between Strzok and Page is that the Deputy National Security Advisor Ben Rhodes has seen a problem with the Downer "tip" or report. What Downer has done is to break the Five Eyes intelligence agencies' procedural rules. Probably by law, certainly by bureaucratic regulations, he was required to send his "tip" about Papadopoulos back to Melbourne to the Australian national intelligence agency for processing. The Five Eyes agreement established the basic rule that the agency of the country that gathers the intelligence must be the agency that processes it. Reasons for this are security, quality control, and independent and unbiased evaluation of the product. This didn't happen. Downer walked his 'tip' over to Elizabeth Dibble, Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy. Probably the day after the meeting at the Kensington wine room. Dibble passed the 'tip' on to her boss, Victoria Nuland, European and Eurasian Affairs (EUR) Assistant Secretary of state.

Downer's report was touted as an intelligence product. It's not. It doesn't have anything at all to do with intelligence. It is a state department product. Ben Rhodes must have noticed this problem. He is concerned. I think what has been decided is that it is now necessary that Halper make another attempt to compromise and incriminate Papadopoulos. The Downer report is flimsy and can be unravelled by judicial inquiry. There's an obvious chain of state department actors promulgating the Downer information. But it is being played as an intelligence product. That's why Lisa Page wants to know if Dibble is at the meeting. It would be better if state department just stays further away. Downer/Dibble/Nuland are the evaluating agency behind the evidence that the FISA document is based on. That's also why Page is relieved that Office of General Counsel (OGC) has just made it far more difficult to identify the people behind the Downer report. She sees the vulnerability.

Downer has to lie, eventually, about his actions in re the report. He tells 'The Australian', a newspaper, that "he officially reported" the Papadopoulos meeting back to Australia "the following day or a day or two after." Then after another interval, Joe Hockey, the Australian Ambassador, passed the information on to Washington. (My source on this is Kim Strassel of the Wall Street Journal and 'Undercover Huber' on Twitter.) This is a lie. He never reported what amounts to one man's denunciation of Papadopoulos to any intelligence agency. Downer went straight to Elizabeth Dribble at the US Embassy.

This is why Halper was sent back into the fray, and the weird September meeting a month or so later in a private room at the Travelers Club took place with Papadopoulos. It's besides the point, but I agree with everything Halper told the crazy Greek kid about British and American policy in the Mediterranean. Papadopoulos was, and is, no doubt, if he had a chance, ready to force the British out of Cyprus and move Incirlik to the island of Karpathos. He does not seem to understand that Mt. Troodos is the jewel in the crown. He wants to squeeze Turkey away from the natural gas fields which will soon enough be found on the Turkish continental shelf between Turkish North Cyprus and the Turkish mainland. The kid if a Greek at heart. Not entirely an American. He's got the ethnic thing. He hates Turks, like all Greeks. Downer and Halper were right! Funny. It's also funny that Downer went out of the way to have a photo made of himself and the Turkish ambassador in the time frame when he was dropping a shit bomb on the kid and on America.

[Jul 05, 2019] How Christine Lagarde, Clinton and Nuland Funded a Massive Ukrainian Ponzi Scheme

Notable quotes:
"... Kolomoisky is the man who controls the recently elected Jewish president Zelensky -- a comedian. ..."
"... Let's not forget that Theresa May is the one who has worked assiduously on trying to overcome the results of the British referendum. She does not believe in democracy. ..."
"... This man most certainly made a substantial offshore payment to Largarde or her companies or her lawyers. That is how it works everywhere. ..."
Jul 05, 2019 | www.unz.com

Alfred , July 5, 2019 at 7:38 am GMT 200 Words

Christine Lagarde is a convicted criminal

Christine Lagarde: IMF chief convicted over payout

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38369822

She robbed the French taxpayer of some 404 billion Euros. The fact that she is not in prison while protesters are being injured weekly by the French police tells you a lot about why these people are protesting.

Since then, she has continued with her corrupt behaviour by greatly enriching the Ukrainian/Israeli oligarch Kolomoisky -- who robbed his own bank.

How Christine Lagarde, Clinton and Nuland Funded a Massive Ukrainian Ponzi Scheme

https://russia-insider.com/en/how-christine-lagarde-clinton-and-nuland-funded-massive-ukrainian-ponzi-scheme/ri27390

Kolomoisky is the man who controls the recently elected Jewish president Zelensky -- a comedian.

I think the writer pays too much to the attire of May and Lagarde -- The pearls, the tweed and gingham suits -- when their corruption is totally 21st century. Let's not forget that Theresa May is the one who has worked assiduously on trying to overcome the results of the British referendum. She does not believe in democracy. Replies: @Logan , @George F. Held

Paul , says: Next New Comment July 5, 2019 at 10:43 am GMT

@Paul

One of the functions of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) is imposing austerity measures on the people of poor countries seeking bailouts, so perhaps choosing a corporate lawyer to run it is fitting.

Alfred , says: Next New Comment July 5, 2019 at 3:05 pm GMT
@Logan ness tampering. After a high-profile case against public prosecutor Éric de Montgolfier, he was sentenced in 1995 by the Court of Appeals of Douai to 2 years in prison, including 8 months non-suspended and 3 years of deprivation of his civic rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Tapie

This man most certainly made a substantial offshore payment to Largarde or her companies or her lawyers. That is how it works everywhere.

Do you think they cannot close down all the secretive island tax-havens tomorrow if they really wished to do so?

Heavens, they have cut Iran from SWIFT but they have never done anything about the BVI etc.

[Jul 01, 2019] Is There a Pattern to the MH17 Blame Game - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Jul 01, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Is There a Pattern to the MH17 Blame Game? By Grete Mautner Global Research, July 01, 2019 New Eastern Outlook 27 June 2019 Region: Europe , Russia and FSU Theme: History , Media Disinformation

Washington's recent attempt t o use the tragic downing of Malaysian flight MH-17 over the Donbass region of Ukraine, which occurred on July 17, 2014 is nothing short of pathetic. Instead of making an attempt to bring to justice those responsible for this crime it tries instead to unleash yet another wave of anti-Russian hysteria. In this situation, it's only logical that this latest attempt has gone down in flames yet again.

It would seem that everything was done in accordance with a carefully drafted script. We've had a major media show with the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) coming forward to announce that the investigation was nearing closure. It's curious that among those countries that have sent their representatives to JIT one can find Ukraine, a possible perpetrator of the attack on MH-17, alongside the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia, and Belgium. Then we had the typical bad guy – Russia, that in the opinion of the JIT was most certainly responsible for the downing of MH-17 and the untimely demise of 298 people. Western puppets would even go as far as to release the names of four people allegedly responsible for the attack.

As for the puppeteers, they would use the head of the US Department of State, Michael Pompeo for making appeals to Russia to immediately put in jail those people the JIT described as perpetrators.

However, this entire propaganda push would only work on day-to-day consumers of American media, who still believe that Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi "got what they deserved" and that Iran and North Korea somehow represent some sort of threat to the international community. However, there's an ever growing number of people in the world who wouldn't fall for such lies anymore, as they've seen them all too often before.

There's little doubt that the Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad is among such people, as he made it pretty clear that there's no proof whatsoever of Russia's involvement in the downing of MH-17. In fact, he would claim that:

" We are very unhappy because from the very beginning it became a political issue on how to accuse Russia of the wrongdoing So far there is no proof. Only hearsay."

In turn, the founder of the conservative Dutch party Forum for Democracy, Thierry Baudet would announce that he has no confidence whatsoever in the JIT and its impartiality, while pointing out that Ukraine must be responsible for this attack.

According to Heise, there's no doubt that Kiev is fully responsible for this tragedy, as it had failed to close the airspace over the contested territories of Donbass and withheld evidence from the investigation. It would add that the Dutch Safety Board was conducting its own investigation of the downing and at some point was convinced that Kiev was behind this attack, however it left a legal loophole for Kiev for it to escape any consequences. As for Russia, Heise argues, it was decided to name it responsible for this tragedy, since Ukraine was acting on Washington's behalf in this downing and it will continue enjoying its protection.

It's curious that t he JIT final report has left a lot of questions unanswered, most of them emerge due to the absence of any actual evidence that could allow this body to allocate responsibility for the catastrophe to some party and could be used in court. Yet, the Netherlands and Australia were quick to announce that they had no doubt whatsoever, even though JIT would cite pictures and messages taken from social media as their sources of information. It didn't bother those behind the so-called final report that they had no access to the Pentagon's satellite images and any sort of data from Ukrainian radars, even though those could serve as actual evidence along with similar data Russia provided to shed light on the actual perpetrators of the attack.

The claims that certain Western media sources would make, about the downing of MH17 "rallying the West against Russia" can only be described as laughable, even though it's clear that this was Washington's initial intention which led to the release of the "final report"

Yet another attempt to present Russia as a bogeyman has garnered no sympathy in Europe, especially against the backdrop of revelations London has recently made about the role of its intelligence agencies in the downing of PA 103 three decades ago. Back then a bomb that exploded on board Pan American Flight 103, en route from London to New York was used to undermine Libya and warrant the overthrow of its leader – Muammar Qaddafi. What this false-flag essentially required was the falsification of evidence and the conviction in a rigged court proceeding of the wrong man. The extent of that operation has recently been exposed in a partial release of British Government documents from the UK ' s National Archives.

It's been noted that those archive disclosures also show that the same modus operandi has been under way since 2014 to fabricate blame for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukraine, and justify global sanctions against Russia, plus operations to overthrow Vladimir Putin.

That is why Malaysia must take the investigation into its own hands and receive all the necessary assistance from the international community to establish who was responsible for the MH17 downing. It's clear that the JIT was more concerned with pleasing Washington than establishing the truth.

*

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Grete Mautner is an independent researcher and journalist from Germany, exclusively for the online magazine " New Eastern Outlook. "

Featured image is from NEO

[Jun 29, 2019] The West's Moral Bankruptcy Exposed

Notable quotes:
"... That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky. ..."
"... However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in Western media. ..."
"... On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah. ..."
"... There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects (Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity in MH17. ..."
"... MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm. ..."
"... The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia. ..."
"... Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. ..."
Jun 29, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

First there was the Dutch-led inquiry into downing of the Malaysian MH17 airliner, which put the finger of blame on Russia for the disaster in 2014 when all 298 people onboard were killed.

That nearly five-year investigation has never provided any credible proof of Russian culpability, yet the Dutch-led investigators known as the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) continually level allegations that Russia supplied an anti-aircraft missile to Ukrainian rebels who purportedly blasted the Boeing 777 out of the sky.

Despite its evident failures of due process, nonetheless Western governments and media have lent the JIT allegations (slanders) undue credibility. The US, Britain and other NATO members last week called on Russia to comply with the JIT "investigation", smearing Moscow as guilty of causing the MH17 deaths.

However, Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad denounced the report as "ridiculous hearsay" aimed at "scapegoating Russia". Tellingly, his comments were not widely reported in Western media.

For its part, Russia has vehemently rejected allegations of involvement in the MH17 disaster, as have pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels. Russia's repeated offers of contributing information to the probe have been rebuffed by the Dutch-led JIT. By contrast, Russia's own investigation has uncovered credible radar and forensic evidence that an anti-aircraft missile fired at the passenger jet actually came from military forces under the Kiev regime's command. Russia's evidence has been steadfastly ignored by Western media reports.

The credible suspect party -- Kiev political and intelligence authorities -- have been allowed to participate in and frame the JIT probe to inculpate Russia. The US, European Union and NATO back the Neo-Nazi dominated regime in Kiev, financially and militarily , since it seized power in a violent coup d'état back in 2014. That should be the real focus of scandal in the MH17 story.

On the back of the MH17 imbroglio, as well as other slanders, Western governments have continued to impose economic sanctions on Russia. These sanctions have cost the Russian economy an estimated $50 billion. On top of that, Western states and their media portray Russia and President Putin as a rogue regime and pariah.

Now contrast the undue priority given to the above dubious JIT claims with two other reports also out last week.

One was on the horrific death toll among civilians in Yemen inflicted by the Western-backed Saudi-led war on that country. It is estimated that over 90,000 people have been killed in violence over the past four years, with most of the civilian victims caused by indiscriminate Saudi air strikes.

It is an indisputable fact that the US, Britain, France, Germany and other NATO powers have been arming the Saudi regime with warplanes, helicopters, missiles and logistics to carry out this slaughter of Yemeni civilians. The Western states are complicit in war crimes.

President Trump continues to defy US lawmakers by ordering multi-billion-dollar arms sales to Saudi Arabia, despite the carnage. The British government and wannabe prime minister Boris Johnson claims that its weapons exports are not involved in killing Yemeni civilians, in blatant denial of the facts.

A British court last week ruled that UK weapons exports were in breach of its own supposed ethical codes protecting civilian lives in conflicts. The British government is set to appeal the court ruling and will likely ignore it anyway given the systematic relationship of Britain arming Saudi Arabia -- the UK's biggest weapons export market -- year after year.

Western media last week, as usual, gave only minimal reporting on the shocking human suffering in Yemen. The whole barbarity and Western governments' culpability is largely hushed-up and omitted by the media.

... ... ...

Meanwhile, the US and its NATO allies impose sanctions on Russia based on unsubstantiated allegations about MH17, Ukraine, Crimea, election meddling, the Skripal spy poisoning affair, among other fabrications. Those sanctions -- based on flimsy innuendo -- are leading to ever-worsening relations with Russia and international tensions between nuclear powers. Western media do not expose the insanity, they foment it.

Such media are unwilling and incapable of pointing out this gross double standard. They propagate the double standard.

The moral bankruptcy of Western governments must be covered up by a servile media. Because the state, corporate power and media are all complicit.

Truth, justice and democracy, which they pontificate about, have nothing to do with the functioning of Western capitalist power; they're mere illusions to distract from systematic criminality. Last week was an object lesson for those willing to see it.


Evil Liberals , 3 hours ago link

There were two suspects: Russia and Kiev. The JIT not only included one of the suspects (Kiev) as part of the JIT, Kiev could also cancel any evidence that involved Kiev complicity in MH17.

MH17 flight was normally a Southern route, but the route was changed to Northern, over the war zone between Rebels and Kiev. Guess who had authority to change the route of a plane entering their country. And, why would they change that route - hmmm.

The lead investigator of JIT refused to consider any evidence presented by Russia.

MilwaukeeMark , 3 hours ago link

The bigger questions is, "who aboard was not meant to arrive where they were heading?".

Helg Saracen , 3 hours ago link

In Kiev, the "Khazar mafia" is strong, more precisely Chabad Lyubavichi (headquarters in New York). Kolomoisky (a member of Chabad Lyubavichi and the owner of the Nazi death squads in the former Ukraine) ...

messystateofaffairs , 4 hours ago link

Western hypocrisy and duplicity. Tell us something we don't know. Like NATO's purpose being mutual defense. NATO's purpose is NWO recruitment. The whore running the recruit victim country is promised personal bribes, and the security services of the gang which it must also support and pay for, in return for forgoing a degree of sovereignty. NATO is just another NWO one centrally managed world scam.

[Jun 28, 2019] Why Vault 7 Tools Used by Private Contractors Shows US Intel Needs a Ground-Up Rebuild Part 2 OffGuardian by GH Eliason

Apr 18, 2017 | off-guardian.org

First, let's look at Bellingcat involvement in Ukraine.

On July 11th 2014 an event happened that shook my world, literally. Bellingcat reported that the Russians attacked Ukrainian armed forces from across the border in Zelenopillya. The Ukrainians suffered traumatic losses. Once again, Eliot Higgins provides the data to determine this. Once again Bellingcat was wrong about the origin of the attack.

This single battle marked the turning point for the entire war. The Donbass militia went on a large offensive for the first time and destroyed a big Ukrainian encampment with a rocket attack.

How can I afford to be so assertive? At 4:30 in the morning on July 11th every house in my town started shaking because of the massive explosions going on at Zelenopillya. I did say it shook my world, didn't I?

I was between the Russian border and the camp. We could see the smoke from the rockets and the sky was lit with the explosions . The explosions were loud enough to wake the dead that morning. There were no rockets flying over my head. For Russia to fire them, that's exactly where they would have been.

At that point we were under Ukrainian occupation for a couple of months. Two days before the attack on Zelenopillya happened, a Ukrainian army officer told the post master to get the children out of town within 2 days. The army was pulling out and a cleansing battalion (Donbas battalion) was coming in to weed out "separatists and supporters." That was when I came face to face with Mark Paslowsky, the American nazi . The article gives his background and tells what was going on.

Bellingcat misidentifies the weapon as artillery. Grad rockets were fired at Zelenopillya by the Rovenki militia that day. I spoke with the militia that fired them about 1 week after the fact. In the linked articles the Ukrainians state plainly that it was militia using Grad rockets.

The Ukrainians took some of their wounded across the border to Russia. It's not quite something you do if Russia was really attacking you. The worst injuries were treated locally. Donbass people ran there after the battle to help the wounded and the Ukrainian soldiers were treated at local hospitals. Ukraine abandoned them.

The story got a lot of play in the west in the west as a Russian attack on Ukraine thanks to this event. It was added to the list of reasons to sanction Russia. If the attack on Zelenopillya didn't happen, I probably wouldn't be here to write this.

For the third time on an important event, Bellingcat shows it cannot identify the origin or firing location of a weapon and misidentifies both the weapon type and the direction of fire in media.

Getting the facts straight about the MH-17 shoot down is the difference between hundreds of families getting justice and closure for those deaths or never seeing it. Convict the wrong party and justice is never served. New victims are made with false or erroneous evidence.

Bellingcat's importance to the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) investigation of MH-17 is apparent through all the media Higgins and Toler are quoted in media as the independent experts.

That last statement should grab your attention. Bellingcat and its founders Elliot Higgins and Aric Toler's credibility rests on the fact that they are independent researchers. If they are working for an interested party in any investigation, Bellingcat's credibility is destroyed and their research means nothing. After all, it's been paid for.

Bellingcat really grabbed the public's attention and imagination after the shoot down of flight MH-17 over Ukraine. Independent researchers Higgins and Toler went to work to find the missile launch site and the responsible parties, or did they?

As early as February 2014, Higgins showed the beginning of a clear pattern regarding Ukraine. In the tweet below this OSINT expert researcher was linking to a 1 month old blog started by Sviatoslav Yurash . What's special about Yurash at this time is that he was Ukrainian ultranationalist Dimitry Yarosh's English language spokesman. If that well known fact wasn't enough to caution Higgins, what was?

In the next article to follow, starting with Yurash as the first example, I'll show you how all these volunteer experts including Higgins get paid. The article will further cement and establish the relationships between Bellingcat, Weisburd, Watts and other intel and news headline providers with each other as well as their employers.

For now, the admission made by the Ukrainian Information Ministry and Aric Toler will have to be enough.

"September 29 and November 19, 2015 in Kharkov Crisis Infocentre Information Policy Advisor to the Minister Dmitry Zolotukhin conducted trainings on the search for information in open sources for journalists and bloggers in Kharkov.

In addition, already 21 November Dmitry Zolotukhin met with his US counterpart, team representative Bellingcat Arik Toler , who conducted a similar training for journalists in Kyiv on the invitation of Media Development Foundation. They also discussed the possibility of holding a conference in Kiev on thematic instruments OSINT-use techniques in the modern media."

One of the Media Development Center's sponsors is NATO . It is a project of the US Embassy in Kiev because of the association with the embassy's diplomatic paper, the Kyiv Post.

If that isn't enough, let's see how close Bellingcat's Aric Toler views the relationship.

According to both Information Policy Advisor Dmitry Zolotukhin and Toler, they are partners. Eric Toler and Eliot Higgins(Bellingcat), along with Aaron Weisburd, Clint Watts, and Joel Harding have been working with the same Ukrainian Information Ministry that started the "Mytorovyets" or Peacekeeper website.

They help the SBU geo-locate people in Ukraine. As shown above, they also train people to geo-locate anyone considered anti-Maidan or anti-nationalist in Ukraine. They didn't disappoint.

The Ministry of Information has been targeting journalists in Ukraine by geo-location for arrest or murder . The first public case was the Ukrainian journalist Oleh Buzina in May 2015. This was one month after my first article about Peacekeeper showed clearly that this was its purpose.

I think this pretty well sums up how independent Bellingcat's investigation has been. To add insult to injury, Higgins and Toler work directly with previously identified Ukrainian Intelligence hackers and Pravy Sektor members (ultra-nationalist Ukrainians) to get Bellingcat "independent research" information.

InformNapalm and its hackers are Ukrainian Intel agents working for the Information Ministry. In their own words – The main activities of the project are collecting and analysing OSINT-information , found in open sources, including social networks. InformNapalm's investigation of 53rd Artillery Brigade commander colonel Sergei Muchkayev, suspected of killing the MH17 passengers, was used in the report of the Bellingcat research team .

Who was the information source for independent researchers at Bellingcat? Dimitry Yarosh's best friend, Valentyn Nalivaychenko was one of them. In the spring of 2014, he replaced SBU(Ukraine's Security Service) personnel with ultra-nationalists because they had the right ideology. Another was Anton Gerashchenko who is responsible for persecuting the press in Ukraine.

In few days and hours after the crash of MH17 Ukrainian officials widely publicly discussed all that data (except the photo of "Paris Match") anonymously downloaded by someone to social nets. For example on July 17 Gerashchenko (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the photo of Buk at Torez; on July 18 Avakov (The ministry of internal affairs) showed the video of Buk at Luhansk; also on July 18 Nalivaychenko (the chief of Ukrainian security service) showed the video of Buk at Snizhne, and on July 19 Vitaliy Naida (Ukrainian security service) showed shot fragment of video frame (not the video itself) from Zugres.

Under the best circumstances Bellingcat's research can only be seen as a Ukrainian Intelligence production. If neither Higgins or Toler were actively engaged with Ukrainian operations on the many levels that they are, their source material is still very tainted. When all your research material comes from a party under investigation, you are no longer a neutral party. You can't pee in a blood sample and call it evidence. Are Higgins and Toler credible? You decide.

Max van der Werff has become a go-to resource for understanding information about MH-17. I have spoken at length with Max and his fellow researchers @bellingmouse. This linked article shows the strength of research these REAL volunteers have brought to the MH-17 investigation . I had to ask Max the great who-dun-it question. His response was after thousands of hours of research, he didn't know. Too many people were withholding information and remaining uncooperative on all sides.

What he was sure of is that Bellingcat's research is shoddy and a lot of the evidence appears fabricated.

Max van der Werf has been interviewed by the JIT investigative team on 4 occasions, given over 6 hours of recorded interviews to them, as well as over 14GB of data.

Examples of this include the fact that all of the images and video are such low quality and resolution, it's impossible to make definite determinations from them.

One of the chase vehicles (jeep) in Bellingcat's BUK convoy is driving with the door open. In another image of the BUK transport supposedly taken by a local resident, the apartment was not occupied in the summer of 2014. There was no one there to take the image. It was again so grainy and low quality that even a military vehicle substitution was not noticeable. None of the neighbors that were there saw a BUK on a trailer.

The route of travel according to Bellingcat would have taken the BUK launcher toward the conflict zone twice while battles were being fought across the region. Anyone familiar with the area or that had a map would take a direct route which would have made it much less noticeable driving through unpopulated areas.

Images taken after the shoot down are just as bad. Some unimportant parts of the image are in focus while it's almost impossible to make out the BUK even though it's right beside the photographer.

The so-called wire-tapped conversation was proven to be a Ukrainian SBU production. How is it still a part of the evidence chain?

What van der Werff and @bellingmouse have proven unequivocally is that another investigation needs to take place that looks for real evidence. The JIT, for their part had the impossible task of investigating a hostile shoot-down of a jetliner with no previous airline disaster investigation experience in a war zone that was active. The problem with it is objectivity was thrown out the window as soon as Ukraine got the right to reject evidence and control what would be made public.

What has looking for Ruskies done? In the eyes of Congress it made you and every publication that strives for neutral information or even writing from their political slant a Ruskie. You work for Vladimir Putin.

It has taken away any hope of justice for people in Syria and the families of MH-17 victims unless real neutral investigations take place.

It's taken away real news from the masses and replaced it with policy pieces from people that get paid to hate you. You are after all, the Russian interference that they talk about.

It's time to stop this bs.

[Jun 28, 2019] Malaysian Prime Minster saying Russia was framed and is getting really close to the likelihood that the shooting down of MH17 with 298 deaths was an intentional American plan/act (Ukraine would not have done it without US instruction)

Notable quotes:
"... I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President. ..."
Jun 28, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

ADKC , Jun 28, 2019 11:35:04 AM | 182

What will prove to the real big lasting news over the last couple of week was when the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad called the Joint Investigation Team's (JIT) position on the MH17 case politically motivated and unproven:

"We are very unhappy, because from the very beginning it was a political issue on how to accuse Russia of wrongdoing,"

This is tantamount to the Malaysian Prime Minster saying Russia was framed and is getting really close to the likelihood that the shooting down of MH17 with 298 deaths was an intentional American plan/act (Ukraine would not have done it without US instruction). There are so many strange things about the shooting down of the MH-17 that it really is very unlikely that Russia or the Donetsk or Luhansk rebels had anything to do with it.

Now think what that means. The MH-17 was shot down in 2014 very likely as part of a US plan to frame Russia while Obama was President. And you Americans have no real concern about this? You don't exert any kind of pressure on your representatives, you just don't think it's important.

I am sure that this case will be resolved as follows:- Relations with Russia will be normalised; Rogue Ukrainian military officers and pilots will be found responsible; These rogue officers/pilots will be roundly condemned but they cannot be brought to justice because they're already dead (yes, they've already been killed - they just followed orders but they've already been killed). When you hear this in a year or two, please remind yourself that this was probably a war crime committed by America while Obama was President.

james , Jun 28, 2019 11:41:27 AM | 183

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad is generally always outspoken and defies the establishment... when i was in malaysia in 2016 i happened to pick up his autobiography which i quite enjoyed.. i am happy to see he is back and speaking his mind.. it's always refreshing even if a person doesn't agree with him.. he is also one of the few leaders in the world today that i actually consider a 'leader'... the malaysians are lucky to still have him as pm today...

[Jun 27, 2019] Compromised MH17 Airline Crash Investigation Ukrainians Desperate to Find Scapegoat by Raúl Ilargi Meijer

Jun 27, 2019 | russia-insider.com
The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start. The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.

Russia reacted by "annexing" Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access to its only warm water port. Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian origin- also didn't want to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil war which continues to this day.

It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality. 3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.

Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious. The countries even signed a secret agreement.

Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.

In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from Russia and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team produced no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.

It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have been ignored.

The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.

So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves? Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?

There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that. Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay. I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.

And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March 2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.

The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.

On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.

I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018, MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven, which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says: " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic - which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be - then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."

Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.

There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done. And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.

Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea.

But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.

[Jun 26, 2019] Four men accused of murder based on distorted MH-17 investigation by Clara Weiss

Google translation from Norwegian
Jun 25, 2019 | www.wsws.org

Joint Research Team (JIT) – etterforskningsteamet created in 2014 to investigate the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 over Eastern Ukraine on 17. July 2014, which resulted in 298 deaths-announced the 19. June that the public prosecution in the Netherlands shall criminally prosecute four persons for murder.

The four suspects – Igor Girkin, Sergeij Dubinskij, Oleg Juldasjevitsj (all three russians) and Leonid Khartsjenko (Ukrainian citizen) – were, and are in some cases still are, active as leaders of the Russian-supported separatism uprising in Donbass. They are now facing international arrest orders and will be brought to justice on the 9th. March 2020. Since the Netherlands cannot require extradiction from either Russia or Ukraine, it is likely that the case will be brought, and that the defendants will be sentenced in absentia.

The four men, as well as the Russian government, claim that they did not at all have any dealings with the plane crash. The Russian president Vladimir Putin reiterated Russia's rejection of the JIT, the commission, and said during a "åpenlinje" the questioning at the Russian TV last Friday that he was "completely disagree" with the evidence that the commission promoted.

The Malaysian president Mahathir Mohamad condemned the charges as politically motivated: "What the us concern, we will have evidence on skyldighet. But so far there is no evidence. Just rumors."

The shooting down of the plane happened at the height of the crisis in Ukraine and civil war in 2014, triggered by the united STATES - and Germany-supported the coup in Kiev in 2014, which was led by fasciststyrker and parts of the Ukrainian oligarchat, in close collaboration with Washington and Berlin. The Ukrainian and the us government, the EUROPEAN union and the international bourgeois media rushed to accuse Russia for the shooting down of the plane, even before any alleged evidence was presented. It was utilized as a new variant of "Gulf of Tonkin", a vague and dubious military event that imperialistmaktene could use as a pretext for war.

The MH-17 case has been out of limelight in recent years. The military structure toward Russia, led by the united STATES and NATO, and the U.S.-led economic warfare against the country, however, has accelerated.

The announcement last week about the criminal persecution came at the same time with an escalation of both the Trump administration's krigsforberedelser against Iran, which could trigger a direct conflict with Russia, and The democratic party's ongoing campaign against Trump, focusing on his allegedly "soft" attitude to Russia. It also comes at the same time with the growing conflicts between the united STATES and the european imperialistmaktene, especially Germany, among others, of Russian gassforsyninger to Germany through the pipeline NordStream2.

The western bourgeois press jumped on the announcement and produced a flood of comments, which the New York Times' redaksjonsråd suggested that flystyrten was not less than "state-sponsored murder". International media such as Der Spiegel essentially presented JIT's announcement and "discovery" for its readers as facts.

The Washington Post wrote that the "international investigators" had "worked diligently to uncover the truth" and "peel away Russia's lies about the downed Malaysian Airlines plane". The newspaper rejected without further evidence presented by the Russian federation for a possible Ukrainian involvement as "false".

In fact, JIT's announcement of the criminal prosecution of these four men is based on ancient discoveries that have no credibility. JIT investigation are significantly biased and part of a massive campaign to exploit the 298 men's tragic death in order to escalate the antiRussland krigsforberedelser. After almost five years with this "investigation" has not been presented any evidence of Russian state involvement, and significant evidence which points to a potential Ukrainian involvement has been deliberately suppressed.

JITs "findings" that claim that a Russian SA-11 BUK-missile system allegedly was carried by the Russian army to russiskstøttede østukrainske the separatists were continuously referred to as "evidence" of Russian involvement.

An engraver report by journalist Robert Parry in 2016 pointed to several holes and contradictions in this version. The other piece of "evidence" is barely audible phone calls, supposedly avlytninger of the Russian military sources, which should indicate that the SA-11 BUK-missilsystemet was deliberately delivered to the separatists. These calls refers, however, not at any point explicitly to the missle system or to transport across the Russian-Ukrainian border.

The fact that not only Russian but also American and Dutch intelligence has found evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement, is entirely omitted from the official press coverage.

In October 2015 raised the Dutch intelligence service MIVD that the only high-energy-antifly-missilsystemene in Eastern Ukraine could have shot down MH-17, where it was flying at 33 000 feet altitude belonged to the Ukrainian military.

An anonymous u.s. intelligence analyst explained in 2015 that "finally, the analysis pointed at a non-authorized Ukrainian operation, which involved a pro-regime oligarch. "Malaysian news media reported as early as in august 2014 that the official representative for American intelligence assumed that the aircraft had been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet. Official Russian militærrepresentanter has also released radar data that seemed to show a Ukrainian jetfighter of the type Sukhoi-25 behind the passasjerflyet MH 17 at the time it was shot down.

JIT-etterforskningens primary goal has been to suppress and divert attention from any evidence that suggests the Ukrainian rather than the Russian involvement. Not a single report produced by the commission in the last five years have once tried to avsanne the evidence pointing to the Ukrainian military involvement in the nedskyvningen of the aircraft. They were simply ignored.

This is no coincidence. Contrary to the way it is presented by the media, JIT is not an independent body of "international investigators". It includes representatives of the Dutch, belgian, malaysian and Ukrainian government and the secret services. From the very beginning, the Russian government has been excluded from participating in the investigations.

Although Ukraine itself should have been considered as a suspected part in any serious investigation, not only the cooperation JIT with Kiev, but operated under an agreement that made it possible for the Ukrainian government to veto the release of information. There could hardly have been a more obvious case of disqualification.

The Ukrainian secret service (SBU), who was heavily involved in both the imperialiststøttede fascistkuppet in Kiev in February 2014, and in subsequent operations of the ytrehøyrekrefter in the civil war, was Ukraine's official representative in the JIT. The SBU massively influenced the investigation.

An internal JIT report from 2016, said: "Since the first week in september 2014 has investigators from the Netherlands and Australia worked here [in Kiev]. They work here in close cooperation with Ukraine's security service (SBU). Immediately after the crash, the SBU gave access to a large number of tapped phone calls and other data. ... While at first it was rather formal, cooperation with the SBU has become more and more flexible. 'Particularly because of the data analysis we were able to prove our added value,' says [the Dutch politirepresentaten] Gert Van Doorn. 'Since then, we see in every way that they associate with us in an open way. They share their questions with us, and think with, as much as they can.'"

It was, incidentally, also SBU who provided the avlyttede the phone calls and other materials that are now being universally referred to as "evidence" for a Russian involvement.

Despite these obvious contradictions and violations of the legitimate etterforskningsprosedyre, presented JITs "findings" and the actions that are credible, definitive "proof" for the "Russian guilt". This witness again to what lengths bourgeois media and western imperialister is prepared to go, in their criminal and dangerous campaign against Russia – a ruthless campaign that could trigger a war between the world's two largest atomvåpenmakter.

[Jun 24, 2019] I agree the JIT has become a fraudulent enterprise. To publicly announce indictments while simultaneously pleading for witnesses to step forward to help confirm the theory on which the indictments are based - that is not a judicial procedure as commonly understood.

Jun 24, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

evilempire , Jun 23, 2019 2:09:56 PM | 53

Regarding the JIT indictments, the JIT has dropped all pretense of
objectivity, which isn't surprising since it was a criminal co-conspiracy
from its inception. They have now revealed themselves as nothing but
a hit squad and lynch mob for the real perpetrators. Russia should
be building a case for a criminal referral of the JIT to the ICC.
It has a pretty solid case since the JIT investigation has devolved into
an obscene travesty involving reams of incriminating actions by the JIT,
which has willfully smothered all the hard, factual, scientific evidence
and fraudulently promoted all the fake, phony fabrications of the high perps.
Charging the JIT with collusion in mass murder may be a reach, but the indictments
of Strelkov et alia is so off the wall and batshit insane there surely must be
grounds for prosecutorial misconduct.

jayc , Jun 23, 2019 2:26:51 PM | 60

I agree the JIT has become a fraudulent enterprise. To publicly announce indictments while simultaneously pleading for witnesses to step forward to help confirm the theory on which the indictments are based - that is not a judicial procedure as commonly understood. The JIT has taken like OPCW - a public relations arm of NATO concerned solely with filtering biased information to western publics.

[Jun 22, 2019] MH17 Report Compromised From The Start

Notable quotes:
"... The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors. ..."
"... Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even signed a secret agreement. ..."
"... Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced. ..."
"... " if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side." ..."
"... Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points. ..."
"... Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea. ..."
"... The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth. ..."
"... The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk farce. ..."
"... ...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have dishonored by their actions and lies. ..."
"... Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly one case where red/blue team were on the same team. ..."
"... Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government. That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands. ..."
"... So think about that when talking about the "neutrality" of The Netherlands in the MH17 investigation. ..."
"... How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles. The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident. ..."
Jun 22, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

Authored by Raul Ilargi Meijer via The Automatic Earth blog,

The investigation into the crash of the MH17 Malaysia Airlines plane in East Ukraine was always compromised, right from the start.

The crash on July 17 2014 came shortly after the "Euromaidan revolution" in Kiev – which first began in November 2013 and culminated in the ousting of elected president Yanukovich on 23 February 2014, happily helped along by John McCain, Victoria Nuland and then-US ambassador to Ukraine (now ambassador to Greece) Geoffrey Pyatt for the USA, as well as various EU actors.

Russia reacted by "annexing" Crimea – a large majority of whose people had voted for Yanukovich, thereby safeguarding its access to its only warm water port. Not a shot was fired there, but it was very different in East Ukraine (Donbass), where people -of Russian origin- also didn't want to be subjected to a new regime under Nuland's puppet Yatsenyuk -and later Poroshenko. They started a civil war which continues to this day.

It was in that heated political climate that the MH17 came down, killing all its 298 passengers, 196 of whom had the Dutch nationality. 3 weeks later, on August 8, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was formed, which was to be led by Holland, and to also include representatives from Australia, Belgium and Ukraine. Which is odd, since at that time, Ukraine certainly was a potential perpetrator of the downing.

Malaysia joined only in December, allegedly because only then did it finally agree to allow Ukraine, a nation that was a suspect, a veto over any conclusions that the team would publish. Malaysia had already been handed the black boxes by pro-Russian rebels in the area, and passed them on to the team in August. Summarized, the way the JIT was formed was highly curious . The countries even signed a secret agreement.

Immediately after the crash, people like then-US VP Joe Biden, as well as Frans Timmermans, then-Dutch Foreign Minister and today candidate for the EU top job, pointed the finger at Russia as the party responsible for shooting down the plane. Also curious, since there had been no investigation and the plane crashed in a civil war zone where access was almost impossible. There was talk at the time of the US having satellite images, but none have ever been produced.

In that atmosphere, the JIT yesterday, June 19 2019, held another press conference, in which it accused four men, three from Russia and one from Ukraine, of being "involved" in shooting down the plane. But again, almost 5 years after the incident, the team produced no evidence for its accusations, saying it will only be presented 9 months from now when a trial will start in the Netherlands.

It also again accused Russia of refusing to cooperate, though Russia has offered its help ever since the MH17 came down. It's just not the help the people want who have accused the Russians since before there was any hint of evidence it was involved. And there still is no evidence. Russia has filed long and detailed reports on the incident despite being ignored, but these reports have been ignored.

The trial will take place starting March 9 2020 without the accused, since Russia doesn't extradite its citizens, and neither does Ukraine. Moreover, the one Ukrainian who is accused is thought to be in the Donbass, where the government has no access.

So this will be a show trial. And one must wonder why it is staged. What's the use of a trial where defendants don't defend themselves? Sure, the official line is they would love to have the men provide a defense, but that smells a bit too much like what has happened to Julian Assange. What are the odds of a fair trial when so many conclusions have been drawn at such early times?

There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. The media take care of that. Nor is there in the US. But the Malaysian PM himself yesterday, again, said the team has proven nothing, and only provided hearsay. I kid you not, I read a piece on the BBC today that asked if the 93-year-old who lost 43 of his countrymen only said that because he wanted to sell palm oil to Russia.

And in the meantime, the evidence is not there, and won't be for another 9 months, if ever, and the EU today added another year to its Russia sanctions over Crimea, and 4 men can deny their involvement all they want, but they can make their case only in March 2020, and only at a show trial, with international search warrants hanging over their heads.

The four men in question, by the way, are not accused of firing the BUK missile that supposedly downed the MH17. They are only accused of facilitating the transport of the missile and launcher from Russia to Ukraine -and back. The JIT Ukrainian team bases the entire story of that transport on serial numbers it says it has found.

On September 17 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense in a YouTube response to a May 24 2018 JIT exhibition, said it had tracked down those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and said both the launcher and missile corresponding to the numbers were purchased by Ukraine from Russia as far back as 1986, transferred there, and had never left the country since.

I get that information from a lengthy, deep-digging and highly recommended essay by Eric Zuesse, from December 2018, MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven , which I've been reading the past few days, in which Eric says:

" if the JIT's supplied evidence is authentic -- which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be -- then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side."

Zuesse also details, in that article, contentions from multiple sources that, while the MH17 may have been hit with a BUK missile, it certainly wasn't the only thing that hit it. There was at least one fighter jet seen close to the plane before it came down, as multiple eye-witness reports claim, and it is alleged that they fired on the cockpit for sure and perhaps other parts of the plane. It is an excellent article that is very well researched and chock-full of links to prove its points.

There are many things wrong with the MH17 investigation. Having the PM of one of your member investigative countries complain that after 5 years you produce only hearsay and no evidence may be the least of the worries. The Netherlands, as main victim, leading the investigation, is strange. How neutral could they be? Their Foreign Minister blamed Russia way before any investigating was done. And Holland was a main sponsor in the "Euromaidan revolution", i.e. the ousting of an elected president.

Still, Ukraine's position in all this must be the biggest warning sign. They stood a lot to gain from committing atrocities and then blaming Russia for them. Plus, Yatsenyuk and Nuland and the US and the EU were mightily angry that Russia had outsmarted them all over Crimea.

But instead of keeping Ukraine out of the investigation, they became a major contributor, and were even given veto rights on anything that came out of it, as far as we know the only party with such rights. If you present a crime novel or movie with ingredients like that, nobody would believe you. Such things don't happen in real life.


Skane , 38 minutes ago link

Malaysia has had combative relations Israel for decades. Mossad is the most likely culprit in the shoot down of MH-17. That's how Israelis work. You don't do what they tell you to do, they stage a mass-shooting or a bombing....... or shoot down a plane full of innocent civilians. No cost is too great for the chosenites.

" By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War" ...... pretty much all you need to know.

Longfisher , 45 minutes ago link

The "investigation" was a sham from the beginning.

I followed it closely for a year or so. Having done so I think a great evil was done, purposefully, but not by Russia.

Popsiq , 54 minutes ago link

The investigation is much like that mock-up of the downed craft - 40 percent missing and 90 percent empty. What evidence there is has been 'filtered' through Kyiv or 'created' by Bellingcat. The rest is the stuff of news conferences.

The Malaysians - who should have had a leading role in the investigation - have been relegated to subservience, even treating their dead according to strictures laid down by 'the investigation' - ie no autopsies of the cabin crew. They, too, have raised the complaint of politics getting in the way of finding the truth.

I would hope the upcoming trial is held in an open, preferrably international, venue where the 'evidence' will be tested instead of being merely 'read into the court record'. If Russia-which has the most to lose - has anything to do with that - three Russian citizens gave been charged - it will be.

Tiritmenhrta , 58 minutes ago link

It was "made up" from the beginning with only one goal - BAD RUSSIANS (as always).

Western hypocrisy (as always too...)

madashellron , 1 hour ago link

Ukraine is the Fox guarding the hen house!!!

lastugro , 1 hour ago link

The Dutch government went in full MH17 cover-up mode. The Dutch minister of justice even declared that publicly disagreeing with the JIT MH17 report equals with undermining the democratic order of the country. But the JIT MH17 report is an easy to debunk farce.

A jet fighter approached MH17 from the right side of MH17, firing for some secs (at 25 rounds/sec) at the cockpit then crossing the MH17 track, approaching from the left side and firing again at the cockpit.

The publically available pictures of the MH17 left side cockpit wall show the effects of the powerful 30mm Grazyev-Shipunov aircraft guns and the formidable kinetic energy of the bullets. Such bullets flew through the B777 airframe and exited through the other side piercing everything in the way. The gun barrels must be replaced each time after firing 2000 rounds!!!

In the MH17 cockpit wall there are holes showing bullets flying into it from both directions, a feat never ever demonstrated by one single warhead explosion because all shrapnels start flying from one point.

The attack clearly started by eliminating the pilots, so there was no Mayday call from MH17 or other distress signals. When such a large B777 aiframe is hit by a misslie, it still continues to fly for some minutes and the pilots could eventually manage to report the attack (by a jet fighter). The planners of this attack knew this stuff and prevented the pilots from sending emergency calls by killing them first. Thereafter the jet fighter launched an air-to-air missile. All anti-air missiles aim not at the cockpit (as JIT fraudulently reports about the BUK) but at the middle of the fuselage where they explode a few meters from the target. This jet fighter air-to-air missile, launched after taking down the pilots, finished MH17.

The DSB / JIT MH17 BUK theory is a complete lie, clearly politically motivated and quite easy to debunk.

The NATO and EU expansion hit a snag in 2014 when Donbass rose up against the coup installed government in Kiev. A false flag to blame the rebels was badly needed. How many innocents were to perish was nobody's concern when the attack on MH17 was planned.

Now it's all about the cover-up: JIT and their governments, Bellingcat, main stream media, all are tuned to hide the truth. Next to enter the game is the Dutch "judiciary", an incredibly corrupt structure, especially in the Netherlands.

Longfisher , 41 minutes ago link

And, they didn't allow the cabin crews' and pilots' bodies to be autopsied. Rats smell.

spoonful , 1 hour ago link

It was Kolomoyski who controlled the airspace where the plane was shot down by an SU-25 missile

https://uawire.org/oligarch-kolomoyskyi-returns-to-ukraine

CogitoMan , 1 hour ago link

Quote:

" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. "

Not true, I live in a country next to Russia and I don't believe that Russians did it. Mainly because at the time I have read what Russians have to say about it and looked at the presented evidence. Besides even some US based websites that are more independent confirmed most of what Russkies had to say.

So I exclude that Russians did have a hand in that tragedy.

But on another hand I accuse Russians to at least have a knowledge and some of their proven beyond doubt actions points to their guilt or co-guilt in downing Polish presidential plane at Smolensk few years ago. In that catastrophe entire Polish political elite perished and it is beyond doubt that it was either sabotage or plane was shot down as parts of the plane fell on the ground well before it hit anything on land. There were many people in Poland at that time that could do it and did have compelling motive to do it but actions of Russian ground crew at the airport are highly suspicious as well. At a minimum they knew and aided whoever was responsible for it and it definitely pilot mistake has to be excluded. Anyway Russians till today do not want to release wreck of the plane and people who ruled Poland at the time were close to Russian regime.

Beowulf55 , 1 hour ago link

What ever happened to the Spanish air controller who saw the intercept of a Ukrainian jet with MH 17?

HowdyDoody , 1 hour ago link

Last seen boarding a Boeing 737 Max.

Mister Ponzi , 2 hours ago link

Don't worry, Raul! From personal experience I can tell you that a lot of us living east of Russia's border don't believe the official story.

Bastiat , 1 hour ago link

...and most of us here at ZH regard any "official" story with suspicion. If it's a matter involving geopolitics, especially Russia, it's assumed to be ******** until proven otherwise. Unpatriotic? The ones who have betrayed the US are the ones who have dishonored by their actions and lies.

foxenburg , 26 minutes ago link

I live in Spain...which is West of Russia's border...and I don't believe the official story either, lol.

CatInTheHat , 2 hours ago link

Obammy and his merry band of neocunts ordered that plane shot out of the sky to justify sanctions on Russia. This is certainly one case where red/blue team were on the same team.

Just as it is today.

Bernard_2011 , 2 hours ago link

Hromadske TV news channel was set up in the Ukraine in 2013 immediately prior to the Euromaidan overthrow of the Ukraine government. That TV news channel played an important role in the Euromaidan. The biggest funder of Hromadske TV was The Netherlands.

"According to the interim financial report Hromadske TV was funded in 2013 by the Embassy of the Kingdom of The Netherlands (793,089 Ukrainian hryvnias , -₴-), the Embassy of the United States of America (399,650 ) and by George Soros International Renaissance Foundation (247,860)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hromadske.TV

So think about that when talking about the "neutrality" of The Netherlands in the MH17 investigation.

Helg Saracen , 2 hours ago link

Thanks for the links. The Netherlands have done a disservice to themselves - the Russians, although not vindictive, do not forget anything and especially do not forgive. On the part of the Dutch, it was extremely stupid. Well, it is clear they really wanted to return their gold reserves from the United States.

Truthistheagenda , 2 hours ago link

Imagine this all happened during a USA Presidency that had not even a schmidgen of Corruption.

gearjammers1 , 2 hours ago link

Israeli crash plane carried sarin chemical - Israel has a private airfield in the Netherlands - not subject to Dutch scrutiny - Jews OWN Netherlands - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/184288.stm - ancient 1998 BBC article - Israeli cargo plane crashes into Amsterdam neighborhood -

"The state-run Israeli airline, El Al, has confirmed that an El Al cargo plane which crashed into a block of flats in Amsterdam in 1992 was carrying a chemical used to produce the nerve gas sarin.... Up to 300 people are believed to be suffering from the effects Since the crash, six years ago, many residents near the site of the crash have complained of mysterious illnesses.

A report published on Wednesday by the Dutch health ministry showed that local doctors believed up to 300 residents could be suffering from effects caused by the accident. They range from depression and nervousness to fatigue and listlessness. Cargo was heading to Israeli plant"

gearjammers1 , 2 hours ago link

Bad blood between Israel and Malaysia: Israel shot down the Malaysian passenger jet and blamed Russia, another enemy of Israel.

Anti-Semitic Malaysian PM insists Jews are 'hook-nosed' to BBC - https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-semitic-malaysian-pm-insists-jews-are-hook-nosed-to-bbc/

MAHATHIR SAID 10 YEARS AGO: JEWS RULE THE WORLD - https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Mahathir-10-years-ago-Jews-rule-the-world-333254 "Mahathir was applauded by the attendants at the conference, including top leaders of all Muslim nations."

Brazen Heist II , 2 hours ago link

Even the Malaysians have come out and called this thing rigged. The West has its head buried up its own *** with short sighted Russophobia. Its sad to see the Dutch being the errand boys of the evil empire on this one.

How does Russia stand to gain from shooting down an airliner? Crickets. They don't say. What a bunch of ******* imbeciles. The pathological obsession with pinning it on the Russkies is evident.

Show us the Ukrainian military radar data.

beemasters , 3 hours ago link

Malaysia should consider recalling all the evidence back and restarting the investigation by an undisclosed independent party. Without the truth, there will be no closure for the victims' families.

Know thyself , 3 hours ago link

I think Malaysia should start with the plane that went down in the Indian Ocean. They certainly have not come clean on that one.

beemasters , 2 hours ago link

These two events happened during the former prime minister's term. He was compromised because he used the western banking system for his corruption (1MDB scandal). By doing that, they owned him, and he couldn't do what's right for the nation/people.

Brazen Heist II , 2 hours ago link

Here's a thought: Russia doesn't behave like a ******* ****** hence not much to criticize. The ones making dumb mistakes get criticized and they happen to be running the West at the moment.

Evil Liberals , 2 hours ago link

Cuz Russia is not the country that meddles in most countries elections in the world - not Russia. What country has military bases in most countries of the world - not Russia. What country has been effecting Regime Change in many, many countries around the world for the last 50 years - not Russia. Kinda hard to write a lot about Russia when some other country is hogging the corruption.

Fed-up with being Sick and Tired , 3 hours ago link

" There is not a soul in Europe west of the Russian border who doesn't believe the Russians did it. " Why not simply use this phrase: "Everyone has been convinced, through propaganda, that Russia did it."

williambanzai7 , 3 hours ago link

A stellar example of International Rule of Law in action. Something the Chinese will be all too happy to emulate. Everything is done to manipulate the dumb sheeple. Hypocrisy Unlimited

Anunnaki , 3 hours ago link

Amazing to see how undemocratic the West has become.

tschanakya , 3 hours ago link

Where are the instances that the west was democratic before?

bigkahuna , 4 hours ago link

Well surprise surprise!

Nassim , 4 hours ago link

John Helmer, the only independent Western journalist in Moscow, has always had the best write ups about MH-17 and the travesty of the truth that this fake investigation is all about. And the scam of an inquest in Victoria, Australia.

MH17 PROSECUTION -- THE DUTCH FIRE THEIR BIG GUNS, THE SUBJUNCTIVE AND CONDITIONAL TENSES, PLUS UKRAINIAN SECRET SERVICE TAPES

http://johnhelmer.net/mh17-prosecution-the-dutch-fire-their-big-guns-the-subjunctive-and-conditional-tenses-plus-ukrainian-secret-service-tapes/

Lumberjack , 4 hours ago link

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/amp/

Lumberjack , 4 hours ago link

A comparison of MH-17 and Putins Plane: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f9/d4/95/f9d495912838a94e128e96dac6354d76--boeing--gambar.jpg

Thom Paine , 4 hours ago link

MH17 shot down by the Ukraine, a major false flag. But it seems for neocons no amount of murder is too much for their false flags. It is a total ******* joke to think Russia in any way could benefit from shooting down a plane like that, for any reason.

oobilly , 4 hours ago link

2 things...

1. In 2001, one month after 9/11 Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner (Siberian airlines flight 1812) and admitted it. (operator error of the Buk system.)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html

2. 10% of Air defense crews could only pass operational exams 8yrs later.

"The ban was lifted in 2008, but so far only 10 percent of Air Defense Forces servicemen "have mastered the required level of theory and practice," the report said." https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/ppo.htm

Nassim , 4 hours ago link

The BUK missile system played no part in MH-17. No rocket trails. It was shot down by 1 or 2 fighter jets

[Jun 21, 2019] The investigation in the case of MH17. Where is the objectivity

Warning: a very raw translation from Russian. Original article is not linked, so it is difficult to correct.
Jun 21, 2019 | weaponews.com

What happened is by-and-large known now and the conclusions already were made: instead of the attempt to find the real culprits, West is engaged in politicized shamanism.This activily does not represnt any intetrrest to the Russian society. . The US, the Europeans, particularly the Netherlands, used MH17 story only as an excuse to once again poke a stick in the Russian bear. Nothing less, nothing more. Everybody understadn tht thre real court trial is hopeless as it is impossible to prove Russian guil based on availble evidence. But someone wants to continue this propaganda campaign, to chew the poisoness mushroom so to speak and produce new hallucinations. The last episode of this long-running "show" was so called "preliminary announcement of the findings of the investigation."

Allowing Ukrainian participation is like allowing a rabbit into the cabbage plantation Basically, for any normal person the question of who would be most likely to shoot down MH17, long gone: it is made of the inept Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners, who have at least one previous episode of shooting the passenger aircraft. Remember downed Tu-154 in 2001, when a series of downright stupid human errors lead to the rocket which failed to engage a low-flying targets captures and shooted down a distant and high flying airliner.

Nobody checked checked that recapured occured and as the result all passenger died.

and Ukraine persistently refused to admit guilt. But at this point there were no "Maidan Nazis" and other Post-maydan adventurists in power of the country. At this point it was relatively "pro-Russian" president Kuchma in power. So this behaviour characterizes very well the essence of Ukrainian "statehood": there can be no Pro-Russian government in Ukraine, only somewhat less anti-Russian. Otherwise, the existence of this state somewhat lose its meaning. In other words the purpose of "project Ukraine" is be ant anti-Russia dog barking at Russia's front door, and it is desirable that Russia is paid for the barking.

For a normal person the most plausible version of "who shot down the airliner" is evident and should be investigated to the fullest extent possible. Instead the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) in the Netherlands was selected to have people with different ideas. In general, this is a rather strange method of investigation to allow to participate in the investigation team the representatives of the country, which is one of the main suspects. And the country is in any case responsible for the accident that occurred over its territory. A country which failed to blocked international air corridors over the combat zone, where several planes and helicopters of the Ukranian armed forces was already actively shoot down And this country has been the fact that comes up with "evidence" so to deflect blame from themselves. Let, in General, the rabbit (or Ukraine) was allowed to guard the cabbage plantation.

Both Russia and Malaysia which could be countervailing force were excluded from the investigation, as it would make harder to blame Russia for the incident.

I created you from what was in hands at the moment The west so adamantly tried to create this political fake, that it was incapable to do quality job with it. And why? Because it is based mainly on "data networks", roughly and crudely "corrected" by Ukrainian "independent investigators". In the photo these investigators anyone can enjoy online and make conclusions for themselves -- to be Lombroso it is not necessary, there and so all is visible.

The information from another Western propaganda "investigative" outlet "Billingcat" have even lower level of "reliability" and "impartiality". And also "radio intercepts" and "wiretapping", were provided the same "genius intelligence" of the SBU. The real facts are simply swept aside.

Unconvient facts that does not suit selected narrative are simply ignored. and we are talking not about the fact that all the perpetrators are in the Donesk republic. Even if take as at face value and assime that JIT version is correct the figures should have some someconnection to anti-aircraft battries BUK and be trained to used them. But, it seems, JIT picked up and charged basically people names of which were somehow leked to the West and which are exposed in the Internet, in social networks and forums, such as the Arrows (Arrow, I. Girkin), Gloomy (S. Dubinsky) and GURZA, who is also the Caliph (A. Pulatov), or Bat (L. Kharchenko).

Well, those about whom the SBU bothered to created some fake "intercept conversations". Anyone who is more or less aware of the course of events spring-summer 2014 from the national republics, would be aware that these people are absolutely out of action in Dosetsk republic. But as an insurance JIT mentioned other people, like BES (Bezler) and others. The enrolled in this basically all Donetsk resistance commenders that existed at the time.

what is stragfe is that that fake interseption were only created up to the level of Surkov and Aksenov. Bu this logic it would be instumental to concoct conversations with Shoigu, Gerasimov and especially Putin. After all, every adept of svidomit faith believes in that in all the political troubles of the Ukrainians and their state's are the fault, of course, Putin. "Kremlin tyrant" constantly spoil the life of the Ukrainians, for example, he makes Ukranina politicain to speal bnational wealth and hide money in the Western banks, to devalue the national currentcy three times (300%) and to raise heating cost to the level whan the people can;'t aford them, follow the destrive recommendation of the IMF and even burn the light bulbs in the hallways.

And it is dangerous to question such a key symbol of Svidomit Faith. So it is very strange that tthey faied to cook a conversation about how Putin orders to shoot down MH17!

Investigators, blaming Russia, blaming Russian ait forces any conversantion now can be faked using "deep fake" technology so thier vialue noww is questibale at best.

If additionally you remove "conversations in social networks", the originals of which no longer exist (the service of "Vkontakte", for example, does not store logs of remote correspondence for more than six months), and which can be editedt JIT does ot have any real evidence.

and evidence like "the soldier talking 53-th separate anti-aircraft missile brigade with a girl" should probably be expcluded taking into account there the name of the gil is unknown and that that fact that converaion of genuane and not a fake is not given.

Trying to blame the Downing of MH17 equipment on the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from Kursk, they themselves have accused the Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners. They are absolutely correctly identified the type of the rocket which was used -- 9M38, which is obsolete and in Russia on arms did not appear even a few years before the war, but in Ukraine such missiles were not decomissioned.

Demonstrated JIT last spring, and fragments of the engine and nozzle 9M38 they identified with serial numbers and symbols of objects (also allowing to define the engine and the nozzle block, and the very missiles). Serial number in Russia was quickly determined the serial number of most missiles, and its tail number. Passport to the nozzle block 9Д131 05 000 No. 830113 and form of the rocket engine 9Д131 factory No. 8869032 it was established that the missile 9M38 were produced on 24 December 1986 and had a serial number 8868720. Because the account for the movement of manufactured military products military acceptance is reflected in the register of products that passed control of military acceptance, then you can set the date and address of delivery.

The 9M38 missile with factory No. 8868720 in the journal acceptance made under the serial number 74 and the missile was assigned side number 847379. In this case it is added to the conventional number of the plant-the manufacturer of the product and the year of issue, and in this form it is applied to the body site. That is, in this case, the room was 886847379.

In addition, the receiving magazine would be clarified and the contract number, 6ИТ-581, and where, under the order of GRAU USSR Ministry of defense were shipped products. Under the order No. 561/4/001029 of February 28, 1987, this Suhr with tail number 886847379, was sent to in/h 20152, that is to say the 223-th separate anti-aircraft missile brigade of the Transcarpathian MD of Terebovlya of Ternopil region of Ukraine. There were, of course, recorded information about the date of the acceptance of these products in the in/h 20152, 19 may 1987, and the date when the manufacturer received this official confirmation on 4 June of the same year. This 223 srbr, "privatized" a nezalezhnikami, in 2000, became a regiment with the same number. Now the regiment is stationed in Stryi in the Lviv region. The regiment participated in the fighting in the Donbass, and in 2014 too, which is very important, was in Donbass during the described period.

The Westen countries not not need the truth, what the need is the pretext for the santions

logically the data about the production of the rocket should be decisive (as well as the rest of the array of information provided by the Russian side), This is a solid evidence. which indirectly expose the guilt of the Ukrainians.

Moreover Ukraniians refuse to provide the data means of objective control with radar as air traffic control and the duty officers and military radar air defense RTV. Kiev refuses to provide information about the location of the SAM "Buk-M1" on the day of the disaster -- why would I, if the fault is not on them?

But Russia has its own data means of objective control (and in fact, given the concentration of large groups of troops, air defense on the border was strengthened and radar was working there a lot, and the aircraft a-50 will almost certainly at the moment is also patrolled "preconflict" zone on our side of the border.

Russia has not yet published this information, but it can declassify it. However, in the West again "not deemed compelling" given us information.

Assume that the intercept from the side of Russian electronic reconnaissance is also possible not to consider, although it Ukrainian Colonel Robert Grinchuk, who commanded the 164-th radio brigade air defense openly said that in the event of unresolved technical problems we "may down another Boeing." Theoretically it can be forged or you can declare it fake.

But the data about to whom the racket which shoot down Boeing belong it more difficult to forge.

Where is the logic? It is Necessary, however, to say that the "independent investigators" proded thier own version. Accring to which this rocket was shipped together to the "Buk-M1" to Georgia shortly before the five-day war (where Ukrainian officers serviced them), and then, they say, that rocket captured Russian.

And insidiously put obsolete and removed from service on the SAM missiles, sent to the Donbass. But why? Is it only for the sake of "not getting caught" on the use of inauthentic Ukraine weapons? Isn't it too difficult?

And why, given subsequent events in summer / autumn 2014? And indeed the "logic" Svidomits, claiming that "to shoot down the airliner" Russian needed "to officially send troops to the Donbas," is also flawed. None of this would not be necessary -- everything needed can be shipped. Without any formal invasion.

Yes, in Georgia Russian Army was captured many trophies. But there are serious doubts that someone would be put into service of outdated missiles from 9M38 "Buk-M1" with something as extended operating life. Not to mention the fact that the missiles are known as kept, it is impossible to exclude and a variety of microcracks as a result, for example, bumps or dropping missiles in the closure height, above the legal operating rules.

Besides, there was no need for them in Russia as Russia was the modernization program of SAM "Buk-M1" to "Buk-M1-2" with a replacement for 9M317 missile to 9M38M1. So there was no reason fro Russia to prolong the life of the missiles. A similar undercurrent of deceit is to put the warehouse dozens of unnecessary missiles to 7 years to shoot down one of them (completely out periods of storage and with unpredictable results) on the adjacent territory the passenger side. Such a version is more suitable to fiction. Trophy of the five-day war were often treated much more carelessly and brutally -- part of the captured tanks (from for sure are more valuable the Buk missle the reuse of the tanks is always possible to find), for example, were simply blew up.

The same fate befell a number of other trophies that Russian army was unable or unwilling to take.so much for the version of "the Georgian origin".

Not to mention the fact that even if we assume the participation of Russian SAM in events specifically mid-July 2014 on the territory of Donbass (it would be wrong to suggest), then the target identification from the SAM, based on the world's best air defense of Russia, there were no problems. And qualification of the SAM calculations in the armed forces was and remains high.

Ukrainians did not shot of the equipment entrusted to them -- and even now did not have shooting practice or have then below the norms. but we are talking about 2014 when the Ukrain arny was in complet disarray.

But does not concern someone in the West? No they preder to to shout about the lack of democracy in Russia. With no noticeable effects -- the pressure on Russia seriously useless.

And it is understood that the Netherlands will going to demand the extradition of the accused (knowing that the answer will be negative), so the prospects for "the court trial" which can determine the truth are zero, although in absentia they can condemn anyone, even Godzilla.

But it is possible "to urge Russia to help ensure that the accused appeared before the court" as did the state Department, or "to welcome the fact of placing the suspects" as delivered by a talking head of NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg

also nobody said it better about the JIT investigation then the Prime Minister of Malaysia Mahathir Mohammad.

"We are very unhappy. From the outset this investigation was politicized and was carried out in order to find ways to accuse Russia of illegal actions", -- said the Prime Minister. He added that investigators are still examining the case materials, said that Russia did.
"We need proof of Russian guilt in the incident. But so far there is no proof, only rumors. It's funny: someone you can't see, shoot, and you immediately declare that you know who was shot."
The purpose of the "investigation" is to hang the blame of three hundred corpses and a plane to some random individuals (transferring the guilt from a sick head to healthy as Russian saying goes).

[Jun 20, 2019] Self-righteous repetitions of the Big Lie substitute for the required "proof".

Jun 20, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

Ort , Jun 20, 2019 2:06:30 PM | 103

Good analysis, and thanks for including the drone-stalking cats photo. I only wish the neighborhood "house cats" here would prey upon drones instead of using my tiny back yard and its birdfeeders as their private hunting grounds.

One quibble, re: "But to blame Iran for it the U.S. will have to prove that its drone did not enter Iranian air space."

This ought to be the case, certainly. But the bogus charges filed yesterday by the corrupt and depraved Dutch authorities as part of the MH-17 downing cover-up is still another reminder that authoritarian despots blithely and bumptiously run on fumes.

No one wishes more fervently than I that the multifarious Western Hegemony Big Lies kept spinning in the air, as if juggled by a monstrous, malevolent Atlas, will ultimately be punctured by laser-beams of truth. In the meantime, increasingly self-righteous repetitions of the Big Lie will substitute for the required "proof".

[Jun 11, 2019] The Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17 Mahathir Opens a Ukraine Political Pandora's Box by F. William Engdahl

Notable quotes:
"... Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own misdeeds. ..."
"... By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe Biden and many others. ..."
"... Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later revealed to be quite alive . ..."
"... According to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016 informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar facility . ..."
"... Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned. According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never reappeared . ..."
"... Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden, despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the elected President Viktor Yanukovych. ..."
"... All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence, as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US elections. ..."
"... Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John Solomon. ..."
"... Increasingly it is looking like the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election, and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN. ..."
Jun 10, 2019 | www.globalresearch.ca

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad sent shock waves in a public speech where he dismissed a Dutch "official" report blaming Russia for the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17 in July, 2014, weeks after a CIA-led coup toppled the elected President of Ukraine. Despite the downplaying in western mainstream media of the Malaysian leader's comments, it is creating a major new potential embarrassment for ex-Vice President Joe Biden and his Ukraine collaborators such as Igor Kolomoisky, in their flimsy effort to blame Russia for their own misdeeds.

During a dialogue with the Japanese Foreign Correspondent Club May 30, Mahathir challenged the Dutch government to provide evidence for their claim that the civilian Malaysian FH17 jet that crashed in Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made BUK missile fired from a Russian regiment based in Kursk. The Malaysian Prime Minister told the Japanese media,

"They are accusing Russia, but where is the evidence? We know the missile that brought down the plane is a Russian type missile, but it could also be made in Ukraine."

The blunt-spoken Mahathir added,

"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians; it could be by the rebels in Ukraine, it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile ."

He went on to demand that the Malaysian government be allowed to inspect the black box of the crashed plane, stating the obvious, that the plane belongs to Malaysia, with Malaysian pilot and there were Malaysians passengers:

"We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reasons, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened."

He went on to state,

"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it, and the idea was not to find out how this happened, but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians ."

The Malaysian Air MH17 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Only in May 2018 the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team issued its report alleging that a BUK missile was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, claiming that it originated from the 53rd Anti-aircraft Brigade of the Russian Federation, stationed in Kursk near the Ukraine border.

The Dutch Joint Investigation Team (JIT) declared that it "has come to the conclusion that the BUK-TELAR that shot down MH17 came from 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia," according to top Dutch investigator Wilbert Paulissen. Paulissen added, "We are convinced that our findings justify the conclusions "

The Dutch-led group presented no concrete forensic proof, and Moscow has repeatedly denied involvement in an act that would make no military or political sense for them. In 2018 the Russian Defense Ministry provided evidence that the BUK missile which had exploded to destroy the Malaysian passenger jet had been manufactured in a Russian plant in 1986, and then shipped to the Ukraine. Its last recorded location was at a Ukrainian military base.

By recasting doubt on those Dutch JIT conclusions, Mahathir has potentially opened a can of deadly worms that could come to haunt the Ukrainian government at the time, especially Igor Kolomoisky , the billionaire Ukrainian financial backer of the newly elected Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky . It potentially could also implicate then-Vice President Joe Biden and many others.

Open Questions

Independent investigators into the destruction of MH17 stress the fact that the Dutch-led JIT deliberately excluded Malaysia as well as Russia from their group, but included the CIA-backed coup regime in Ukraine, hardly an unbiased party. Further, all telephone taps the JIT has presented as proof of the guilt of the Russians came from the Ukrainian secret service SBU. Since the CIA-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014, the SBU has been involved in repeated fake accusations aimed at Russia, including faked murder of a journalist later revealed to be quite alive .

2014 Year Review: MH17 and the Civil War in Ukraine – An Airplane Tragedy with Political Implications

One of the central issues that the Dutch JIT group never addressed is why, at a time it was a known warzone, and commercial international flights were told to avoid the airspace in eastern Ukraine, the MH17 flight was reportedly ordered by Ukraine air traffic control authorities in Dnepropetrovsk to change course and to fly directly into the war zone. According to a Dutch site, Post Online, Eurocontrol, European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, gave information to the Dutch Parliament about the status of Ukraine radar in 2016 informing that the Ukraine air traffic control organization UkSATSE failed to inform Eurocontrol in summer 2014 about the non-operational status of three radar systems in Eastern Ukraine, a grave violation of law. One of the three was taken in the wake of the CIA Ukraine coup in April by a masked band that destroyed the radar facility .

Further, in another breach, the Ukrainian UkSATSE refused to permit their air traffic controller at Dnepropetrovsk, responsible for controlling flight MH17, to be questioned. According to Russian reports, the person "went on vacation" and never reappeared .

The Kolomoisky Factor

Notably, at the time of the MH17 downing, the Ukrainian governor of the Dnepropetrovsk Oblast or region, was Igor Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky, who is listed as the third richest man in Ukraine with an empire in oil, coal, metals and banking, was also reported to be directly linked via offshore entities to control of Burisma, the shady Ukrainian gas company that named the son of then-Vice President Joe Biden to its board .

Kolomoisky, who is notorious for hiring thugs and neo-nazis to beat up business and other opponents in Ukraine, reportedly secured the lucrative Burisma post for Hunter Biden, despite Biden's lack of any experience in Ukraine or in oil and gas, in return for Joe Biden lifting Kolomoisky's US visa travel ban. Joe Biden was the Obama Administration point person in charge of the 2014 CIA-orchestrated Maidan Square coup and toppling of the elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

Notably, the Mahathir remarks have drawn attention anew to the mysterious circumstances around the downing of Malaysian Air MH17 in 2014 and the potential role of Kolomoisky and others, in that. The role of corrupt Ukraine officials backed by the Obama Administration, is now under scrutiny.

Notably, the new President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, is widely reported to be a protégé of Igor Kolomoisky. Zelensky became a national name as a comedian on a Ukraine TV station owned by Kolomoisky, and the latter reportedly provided funds and personnel to run the comedian's victorious May 2019 election campaign in which he defeated incumbent Petro Poroshenko, a bitter foe of Kolomoisky. Following Zelensky's election victory, Kolomoisky returned to Ukraine after exile in Switzerland following a bitter falling out with Petr Poroshenko in 2015.

All these pieces of a very murky geopolitical puzzle underscore the dirty role that Ukraine and the Obama administration have played in demonizing Russia as well as the Trump Administration. Most recently, it appears that the US Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his staff, relied on a Ukrainian businessman named Konstantin Kilimnik, who worked for Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, as the key figure supposedly linked to Russian intelligence, as a key figure to make the case of Russian collusion or interference in the 2016 US elections.

Far from a Putin agent, however, new evidence shows that Kilimnik, since at least 2013 was a confidential Ukrainian informant to the US State Department, according to US journalist John Solomon. Solomon cites FBI documents including State Department emails he has seen where Kilimnik is described as a "sensitive" intelligence source for the US State Department. The Mueller report left that embarrassing detail out for some reason. Kilimnik worked for Paul Manafort who before the 2014 Ukraine coup had served as a lobbyist for Ukrainian elected president Viktor Yanukovych and his Party of the Regions.

Their shadowy acts in Ukraine may soon come to haunt key figures in Ukraine such as Kolomoisky, as well as people like Joe Biden and family. From the true authorship of the downing of MH17, which Dutch and other investigators believe was linked to Kolomoisky actors, to the Ukraine business dealings of Hunter Biden to the true facts of the Mueller "Russiagate" probe, all could well prove to be a far more revealing investigation for the US Justice Department than the obviously biased Mueller probe has been.

Increasingly it is looking like the Ukraine and not Russia is the more likely source for interference in the 2016 US election, and not in the way we have been told by the establishment media such as CNN.

*

Note to readers: please click the share buttons above or below. Forward this article to your email lists. Crosspost on your blog site, internet forums. etc.

F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine "New Eastern Outlook" where this article was originally published.

He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization.

[Jun 03, 2019] Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014

Notable quotes:
"... Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty " ..."
"... "Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border," ..."
"... "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools." ..."
"... had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat. ..."
"... "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia". ..."
"... "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces." ..."
"... "comprehensive" ..."
"... "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" ..."
Jun 03, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

Who Shot Down Flight MH17 over Eastern Ukraine in 2014?

span ted by wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 11:19am

Well of course it was the Evil Russians! Didn't Russians also shoot Roger Rabbit? We'd been discussing this 2014 interview with Tulsi Gabbard on my post ' analyses of the leaked 'Deal of the Century' I/P peace plan ' that I'd found that day and posted in comments, mainly wanting to feature her anti-Palestinian Hasbara. As I remember it, this 'blame' started the horrific sanctions on Russia.

☭ Nova🌱Shpakova ☭@NovaShpakova

Replying to @BrianBeckerDC

Tulsi says she doesn't want it, but her past record in #Obama/#Biden's Admin tells a different story. Let's rewind to the very words Tulsi said just a few yrs ago. #Tulsi betrays herself as a flatout #Zionist apologist & avid supporter of fascist #Ukraine. http://www.msnbc.com/taking-the-hill/watch/should-us-be-involved-in-ukraine-conflict--312796739629

10

Should US be involved in Ukraine conflict?

Foreign Affairs Committee member Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, D-Hawaii, joins to discuss hot spots around the world that are seeing conflict.

msnbc.com

19 people are talking about this

Tulsi: "While I agree that Russia is both directly and indirectly responsible for this downed plane shot down by the separatists, we've got to look at this in the bigger picture. We've got to look at Russia's incursion into Ukraine, Ukraine's sovereignty "

TravelerXXX had bookmarked this Eric Zuesse exposé that I'd vaguely recalled and brought it in:

'MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine's Guilt Now Proven', December 31, 2018, strategic-culture.org

It's about nine yards long with zillions of hyperlinks, so long I don't even guess I'd ever finished it, which makes it hard to figure out what, if any, nuggets to feature, but he did link to this:

'MH-17: the untold story', 22 Oct, 2014, RT.com, including a 27-minute video documentary.

"Three months after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down over Ukraine, there are still no definitive answers about what caused the tragedy. Civil conflict in the area prevented international experts from conducting a full and thorough investigation. The wreckage should have been collected and scrupulously re-assembled to identify all the damage, but this standard investigative procedure was never carried out. Until that's done, evidence can only be gleaned from pictures of the debris, the flight recorders (black boxes) and eye-witnesses testimonies. This may be enough to help build a picture of what really happened to the aircraft, whether a rocket fired from the ground or a military jet fired on the doomed plane."

I'd later added to that thread, including some photos of a beaming Netanyahu holding a map of the Golan Heights that Herr Trump had signed with his approval (indicating the leaked plan just may be The Real Deal) when Up Jumped the Devil:

'Where is the evidence?' Malaysian PM says attempts to pin MH17 downing on Russia lack proof', 30 May, 2019, RT.com

"Malaysia has accepted the Dutch report that a 'Russian-made' missile shot down its civilian airliner MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, but has yet to see evidence it was fired by Russia, said Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.

"They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) in Tokyo on Thursday.

"You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians," the prime minister went on, according to the Malaysian state news agency Bernama. "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile."

"Mahathir was skeptical that anyone involved with the Russian military could have launched the missile that struck the plane, however, arguing that it would have been clear to professionals that the target was a civilian airliner.

"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he said.

The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT), whose report last year blamed Moscow for shooting down MH17, barred Russia from participating in the investigation, but involved the government of Ukraine. Although Malaysia is also a member of JIT,Mahathir revealed that his country's officials have been blocked from examining the plane's flight recorders.

"For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said. "We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it."

"This is not a neutral kind of examination," Mahathir added.

Rejecting the JIT accusations, Russia made public the evidence the Dutch-led researchers refused to look into, including the serial number of the missile that allegedly struck MH17, showing that it was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986 and was in the arsenal of the Ukrainian army at the time of the tragedy."

b of Moon of Alabama offered this whopping 55 minute press conference video with Malaysian PM Mahathir on Twitter on May 31.

But aha! RT had later provided on the left sidebar:

May 24, 2018: 'No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims', RT.com

"The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit, urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images.

"Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border," the defense ministry said in statement.

The Russian military raised eyebrows over "the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools."

The ministry pointed out that the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat.

The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia.

Investigators claim the missile system involved came from "the 53rd Anti-aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk in Russia". The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago.

The alarming part in the JIT probe is that "the Dutch investigators completely ignore and reject the testimony of eyewitnesses from the nearby Ukrainian communities", according to the Defense Ministry. The testimonies, however, provided essential information "indicating the launch of a missile was carried out from a territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces."

The Russian side said that it provided the international probe with "comprehensive"evidence, including field tests, which "clearly indicate the involvement of the Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft system units" in the destruction of the plane with 283 passengers and 15 crew members onboard."

This video that Eric Zuesse had up may be part of the referenced eye witness testimony.

... ... ...

(cross-posted from Café Babylon)

[Jun 03, 2019] MH17 attribution to Russia now looks like a classic false flag operation by Western intelligence services

Jun 03, 2019 | caucus99percent.com

I'd have to go with Zuesse's conclusion.

Have brought up Gabbard's sticking with the lies and false narratives regarding Russia and Ukraine, clearly one of her blind spots in her "antiwar" political campaign, that along with the massive and unrelenting war OF terror. That letter is a rather disgusting display of imperialist obfuscation by the duopoly political parties, fully supporting the lies about Maduro and what's happening in VS and in effect providing cover for future actions. You can't claim to be against military action while also lying about the reasons. Of course they can, that's how they prep the public for imperial advances. up 4 users have voted.


wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 4:10pm

i'm not positive that

@Big Al

i totally endorse zuesse's theory, but oh my, he'd brought in a lot of moving parts at the time. paranoid conspiracy theory or 'coincidence theory', as some brilliant mofo used to ask. (i'l think of his name later.) the russian defense ministry's contentions are in conflict with zuesse's (buk missiles v. another jet with missiles), but i sure as hell know that the dutch report decision in advance was bullshit. i'd think that one would have to be willfully blind to accept it at face value, esp. if any of them like gabbard were on the defense and intel committees at the time. same with madurro's venezuela, to pretend that it's not mainly the egregious sanctions and blockades that are responsible for the estimated 40,000 citizens who've died for lack of medicines and food. and now their CLAP food delivery system is under attack...again.

i get that the intel they're fed is rubbish, but they all have the duty to look further than what lies they're spoon fed. CEPR has been incredibly valuable a resource for one, and it's pretty mainstream.

but he's right about one thing: yanukovitch was overthrown due to his refusal to sign the EU association memo, and when Imperialists speak of how 'russia stole crimea', or refuse to see why the separatists in the donbass formed their own independent nation-states, it's utter hypocrisy.

thanks for reading and commenting, big al.

oh, and do you know if tulsi's FP is still at her house.gov site? i looked at all her press releases that were dated after that offensive letter, but i'd found nothing new.

Big Al on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 4:55pm
Ya, I never got into it much.

@wendy davis I mean, there's the establishment/government narrative and there's the truth, that's about all I need to know. It's like that saying "trust, but verify". I say fuck that, "don't trust, and verify that".
I don't know about Gabbard's FP, she's done some housecleaning and avoided certain things since becoming the CFR's choice for 2024. Again, I've already done enough research, what, for over 3 years now?, to see what she's all about, something I failed to do in 2007/8 regarding Obama. Lo and behold, all the clues were there just waiting to be uncovered, but I wasn't in the same place as now.

Pluto's Republic on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 10:43pm
I believe the answer was best documented

@wendy davis

...by the Russians, who were not allowed to participate in the Dutch investigation. The information and data was presented to the Dutch and to the Western media in September 2018. Everything one could hope to see in physical evidence is here. There is additional evidence not in this article that adds to the details and forensics presented here.

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-downing-russian-briefing/

This information was not published in the West or in the Vassal State of Netherlands. The US possesses satellite photos of the incident. But it has classified those photos and refuses to release them.

As for means, motive and opportunity:

• MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, not over Russia.
• It was shot down with a missile owned by Ukraine, not by Russia.
• It had propaganda value for Ukraine and its CIA masters, none for
• The missile was fired from territory controlled by the neo nazi Kiev regime.

But the best evidence of what took place, as far as I'm concerned, is right here:

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, falling in the rebel-held part of the country. The crash claimed the lives of 283 passengers and 15 crew members, most of them Dutch nationals. Russia was blamed by Western media in the first days after the tragedy, even before any evidence had been collected on the ground.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 8:57am
excellent,

@Pluto's Republic

and thank you. your memory is prodigious, and having the 2018 RT news is srsly helpful, as is your M,M, & O formula. blame first, then fail to allow russia (and malaysia) to be able to run investigations. good to know as well that the malaysian minister knew of the serial numbers and that ukraine owned the missiles.

eric zuesse had said that even dutch journalists were raising havoc with the JIT back in the day. but just think what this false blame resulting in mega-sanctions began, then onto the skripals, russia-gate in many guises, and tra la la.

mr. wd laughed this mornin' and said he wishes he had a choice to vote for sergei lavrov for prez; i second that!

dunno if the EU still wants a compact with ukraine, but NATO sure wants the neo-nazi nation as a member. ping: if i have the energy and time, i'll try to find in zuesse's tome admissions by snipers in 2014, as well.

Lookout on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 5:03pm
Tulsi's issue page....

...is here -
https://www.tulsigabbard.org/

Must admit I didn't hunt down her Ukraine position, but my personal take is Obummer and the CIA set out to foment problems and managed to get a fascists regime elected in order to oppose Russia. The new Ukrainian president may take things in a more pro-Russia direction?

wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 6:01pm
ach; not at her house.gov

@Lookout

site, at her election site. well, check out Russia , for now. and i do thank you; i was lookin' in all the wrong places. ; )i'll check out more soon as i have time, but zounds: russia: crimea, the nation's interference in our election, wooof. of course jill stein raised boatloads of bucks for recounts in three states on the basis of russian interference, later 'foreign interference' against the wishes of the green party board and her own running mate, so...there's that, but it was just a dodge against trump winning, not hillary. sorry, tulsi.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 9:09am
my apologies

@Lookout

for being in such a hurry i hadn't even registered your speculation about zelenskiy, but nah, he wants crimea and the donbass self-declared republics that Putin stole from him...back. he's being lauded and applauded for 'standing up to KGB Putin'. ; )

and the IMF's bailin' em out again so they have enough to pay their NATO dues and join the EU. (just saw that tryin' to remember how to sorta spell the comic's name.)

jim p on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 7:32pm
The pilot's body, iirc,

maybe it was passengers', was returned to Malaysia ... but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.

At the time an OSCE member was the first to arrive at the crash site. Some 20 minutes after the downing. The photos taken by him, or so it was attributed, showed round holes (not shrapnel) shot in the pilot area. Sorry I don't have any links handy on either of these, but I'm pretty sure this is correct.

wendy davis on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 8:29pm
thank you;

@jim p

as i understand it, the hole size was not in contention. but weather it had been the pilot or a passenger: '...but in a sealed coffin, that even family members were refused to open.'

is that perhaps a malaysian custom? is the truth out there somewhere?

jim p on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:17pm
The family was furious

@wendy davis and the government protested. The holes in the photo were in the cockpit and looked perfectly round.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:31pm
as pluto &

@jim p

eric zuesse remind us, the holes in the cockpit were likely from machine guns on the ukrainian fighter jet sent to make sure the ukie buk missiles had (omg) killed the plane, which if i'm getting it right (a big IF) was changing direction as it went down. my apologies for not getting all the moving parts and claims right on this thread.

but the 21st century wire shows charts and evidence that the flight crew was ordered to change course by the air traffic control tower (as per the later censored bbc plus recordings).

Pluto's Republic on Sun, 06/02/2019 - 11:20pm
Many believed that a Ukraine fighter jet

@jim p

...was involved in the downing of MH17, which was the opinion of many aviation experts and others, who found bullet holes in the cockpit, wings, and fuselage. This in addition to Buk damage.

Recordings were captured by multiple sources of a frightened and stressed Ukrainian pilot, who radioed, "I shot the wrong plane!" He sounded as if he was commanded to shoot down a military target plane and was misled into shooting a passenger jet. That pilot, named Voloshyn, later committed suicide.

The typical recollection of the incident is:

A fighter was also sent up to 'make sure' the target plane was shot down. If I remember rightly, the plane was hit, but was still flying and it began to turn back. If the plane story (which I tend to believe) is true, it's at that point that the fighter jet opened fire on the cockpit and wings.

That would also account for Buk damage to the Boeing, as well as fighter machine gun damage to the cockpit.

You can find many references to this incident along with transcripts of the conversation between the fighter pilot and the ground base.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 8:54am
that theory

@Pluto's Republic

certainly covers all the bases, doesn't it? good on ya, again, upside-down pluto.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 12:40pm
i never found zuesse's

video confessions from the snipers at maidan (i assume ukrainians firing on protestors in front of the trades union building that was eventually...burned to the ground.

but this?

"For instance, Moscow said a theory was never tested that the airliner could have been downed by a fighter jet spotted by Russian radar stations near flight MH17. The theory was later proven false by the discovery of debris from the Buk rocket.

Though Russia doesn't possess those black boxes ( which, by chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the Malaysian Government's representative, and yet that Government handed them to Netherland's Government instead of to Russia's -- apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals, evidence that's conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with Haisenko's reconstruction of the event, regardless whether a Buk was involved or not."

one of his links went to ' MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag ' July 25, 2014 , 21stcenturywire.com

"As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-known dangerous area by now – one that's hosted a number of downed military craft over the previous 3 weeks. Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine, confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto.

Data on all airline flight records can be found here. The BBC reported on July 17th: " Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

a great (and lengthy) collaborative investigation by 21st century wire. thanks, obomba, thanks, tulsi, thanks Pierre and vickie nuland. and even the new guy can't control his neo-nazis. but then again, at least yulia tymoshenko didn't win.

but NATO will add them to the roster soon, which is one of the reasons that the atlantic council had recommended him: to root out poroshenko's oligarchs' corruption.

wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 5:20pm
no date given, but:
wendy davis on Mon, 06/03/2019 - 5:13pm
i found it,

but i almost wish i hadn't it's sooooo long and full of twists and turns, news reports, videos, but in general the theme is that mikhail saakashvilli hired them, then stiffed them.

' The "Snipers' Massacre" in Kiev -- Another False Flag? ', January 13, 2015 , granvillepost.com, eric zuesse

you may remember him best john Mccains buddy: 'today we are all georgians'? like ahmed chalabi, he's the proverbial bad penny who keeps returning in whatever guise needed (after expulsions), and the big news this week is that zelenskiy's reinstated his ukrainian citizenship after promising to give up his former ambitions and work with the new prez.

good gawd all-friday.

[Jun 01, 2019] In -Jaw-Dropping- Speech Malaysian PM Says -No Evidence- Russia Shot Down MH17 -

Notable quotes:
"... In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems "to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" . ..."
"... The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile," he said. ..."
"... Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said . ..."
"... "We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians." ..."
"... Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down. ..."
"... Tell Malaysia they cannot access the black-box on their plane that was shot down, and they will tell you where to put your authoritative report. ..."
Jun 01, 2019 | www.zerohedge.com

In unexpected statements Malaysia Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has questioned the methodology behind Dutch investigators who produced what the West considers the authoritative report on the tragic shoot down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 while flying over war-torn eastern Ukraine. He criticized that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) seems "to be concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians" .

The Malaysian leader told reporters at the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (FCCJ) in Tokyo on Thursday "They are accusing Russia but where is the evidence?" Mahathir said his country accepted that a "Russian-made missile" shot down its civilian airliner, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew members on board, but that "You need strong evidence to show it was fired by the Russians."

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad (left) shakes hands with Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in Tokyo on Friday. Image source: AFP

He ultimately questioned the objectivity of the investigators in what major regional media described as a "jaw dropping speech" .

Australia's prime state run news service ABC News noted the Malaysian PM's speech has sent shock waves through the region as it questioned everything Australia's own leaders have said. "From the very beginning we see too much politics in it," Mahathir said in reference to the official Dutch-led investigation.

A total of 38 Australians were killed in the Boeing-777 shoot down and crash, and the majority were Dutch nationals. The ABC report summarized of the "bombshell" charges leveled by PM Mahathir :

"Based on these findings, the only conclusion we can reasonably now draw is that Russia was directly involved in the downing of MH17," Australia's then-prime minister and foreign minister Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop said in a joint statement.

"The Russian Federation must be held to account for its conduct in the downing of MH17 over eastern Ukraine, which resulted in the tragic deaths of 298 passengers and crew, including 38 people who called Australia home."

But in a bombshell speech to the Japanese Foreign Correspondents Club (JFCC) on Thursday, Dr Mahathir was having none of it, accusing those who blamed Russia of scapegoating the nation for "political" reasons .

The Malaysian PM further went so far as to point to Ukrainian pro-government forces as being prime suspects: "It could be by the rebels in Ukraine; it could be Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile," he said.

Interestingly, this has been Russia's position all along, which has already led some international media sources to suggest of the deeply contrarian Friday speech , "Dr Mahathir is known to enjoy a good conspiracy theory."

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014 – amid heavy fighting in Ukraine's civil war.

Mahathir further slammed the decision to exclude Malaysian investigators from the black box examination: "We may not have the expertise but we can buy the expertise. For some reason, Malaysia was not allowed to check the black box to see what happened," he said .

"We don't know why we are excluded from the examination but from the very beginning, we see too much politics in it and the idea was to find out how this happened but seems to be concentrated on trying to pin it to the Russians."

The Malaysian PM's headline grabbing comments were made in English in response to a reporter's question:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/veasiPEfjZ8?start=2430

He concluded that, "This is not a neutral kind of examination" -- again questioning the basis on which suspicions of pro-Kiev forces appeared to have been superficially ruled out from the start.

"I don't think a very highly disciplined party is responsible for launching the missile," he added, according to Australia's ABC .

MH17 reconstruction, via Reuters

Russia has also rejected the conclusions of the European JIT report, saying the missile that struck the civilian airliner was manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1986, and was part of the Ukrainian army arsenal at the time of the shoot down.


Bernard_2011 , 19 minutes ago link

The consensus of the "international community" is that the Russians are responsible. Anything outside the consensus view is not permissible. That's how democracy works. And also how science works.

I would trust the Dutch investigators about as much as I trust the OPCW with regard to chemical weapons use.

NiggaPleeze , 24 minutes ago link

But but but ... Bellingpussy said it was Russians!

wadalt , 26 minutes ago link

"concentrated on trying to pin it on the Russians"

Russia is an IMPEDIMENT to Apartheid Israhell's design for the region .

Without Russia, ASSAD would be long gone and IRAN would have been bombed to oblivion, and Greater Israhell would have been fulfilled and ruling over the MidEast.

In other words, pinning it on the Russians is simply PAYBACK .

MadelynMarie , 33 minutes ago link

https://www.corbettreport.com/dr-mahathir-mohamad-opens-the-911-revisited-conference-in-kuala-lumpur/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/malaysias-new-92-year-old-prime-minister-is-a-proud-anti-semite/

Mahathir Mohamad says 'Jews rule the world by proxy' and has called to 'strategize and then to counterattack'

Captain Nemo de Erehwon , 34 minutes ago link

Tell Malaysia they cannot access the black-box on their plane that was shot down, and they will tell you where to put your authoritative report.

fersur , 37 minutes ago link

Deep State had its hands all over that downed Aircraft, he who records History, creates History, for proof compare schoolbooks from any different generations !

Manthong , 42 minutes ago link

How about if an American Airliner is splashed by anybody, the Americans are not allowed to fully investigate?

What's the difference with this proposition and the reality of the Malaysian airliner incident?

One not need to be Sherlock Holmes to determine how much this whole thing stinks.

medved_ , 43 minutes ago link

Before MH-17 was diverted into the conflict zone, at least one military plane was downed there. By the very design it is difficult to prove

Dickweed Wang , 49 minutes ago link

It shows everyone just how fucked up the world has gotten when a foreign leader has the balls to speak some truth in public and what he said is instantly labeled "deeply contrarian".

Keep this in mind when you hear anything negative about Russia coming out of the UK or out of one of her spawn like Australia . . . Great Britain has had a total hard-on for Russia going back over 200 years and to this day will do anything in their power to **** Russia over any chance they get. It's primarily because of the actions of the UK that there's such an anti-Russian push in the US right now.

The shoot down of MH17 was just another attempt to stick it to the Russians and there's British finger prints all over that incident (for example, who still has the black boxes from that flight and won't let the Russians or anyone else see them, hmm?).

Minamoto , 1 hour ago link

The explosion of the battleship Maine in Havana harbour...

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident...

Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq...

The downing of MH-17...

Proliferation of false flags operations.

Mustahattu , 1 minute ago link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PfoaLbbAix0

spoonful , 1 hour ago link

I said it back then (er helped say it) - listen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWlAARb0fN4 . Ukrainian Su-25's strafed the pilots with bullets - it was no BUK missile

Idaho potato head , 42 minutes ago link

Also @ 8:32 eyewitness states that a second plane was in the air, a military one. The rebels did not and do not possess aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g

Truthoutthere , 37 minutes ago link

Another false flag from the evil cabal of blackhatted ZioNazi scum.The world needs to be rid of this cancer...and to think that some of these Pentagram monsters are grandparents.

spoonful , 55 minutes ago link

israel began mowing the Gaza grass within a few hours of the MH17 shoot down on that infamous "7-17" day.

https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/KNOW-COMMENT-Mowing-the-grass-in-Gaza-and-beyond-363290

insanelysane , 1 hour ago link

Not to mention that the plane diverted from the usual route to fly over the hot zone with no explanation ever given.

Idaho potato head , 1 hour ago link

Diverted by Ukrainian air traffic control.

Mustahattu , 1 hour ago link

Maybe that's why the black box is kept away from Malaysia and Russia.

Idaho potato head , 1 hour ago link

The litany of 'highly likely' accusations were so pervasive they were blacking out the sun like a swarm of locusts. It's my hope that this is changing. More lies about Syria, Venuzuala, Iran etc. told to save the liars with new war worries. Would be nice to see normalcy come to the US, but maybe it must come completely apart first, I hope not. But the empire is not looking too good lately.

JoeBattista , 1 hour ago link

Props to the Malay guy. Fragments of the missile used in the attack were found, and the serial # recovered. The missile was made in Russia in the 80s, and shipped to Ukraine at that time. There is an entire hand written inventory(it can be seen at Veteranstoday.com ) from date of manufacture up to it's delivery to a missile battery in Ukraine. It remained there in the Ukraine until pieces of it were recovered at the crash site. Check it out.

CosineCosineCosine , 1 hour ago link

John Helmer did the best work on this risible frame-up. Multipe articles with superb investigative journalism

Book by Dutch investigator says it all really:

Extra:

[May 31, 2019] The entire "revolution of dignity" fiasco has been rejected: whatever Ukraine the voters want, it's not the one Nuland Co gave them

May 31, 2019 | turcopolier.typepad.com

UKRAINE ELECTION. He was invited everywhere, pressed the flesh with everyone, has a whole wall of ego pictures; in the end he was defeated by Anybody-At-All. I have no idea what Zelensky will turn out to be and I doubt anyone else does either. But the conclusion is that the entire "revolution of dignity" fiasco has been rejected: whatever Ukraine the voters want, it's not the one Nuland & Co gave them.

[May 31, 2019] Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17

Highly recommended!
May 31, 2019 | www.moonofalabama.org

alaff , May 30, 2019 9:08:42 PM | 37

Interesting.

Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of being biased and not transparent. Video at 40:56.

Just a few excerpts:

We should be involved in examining the black box. We may not have the expertise, but we can buy expertise. But for some reason or other Malaysia was not allowed in to check on the black box to see what happened.

<...>

They are accusing Russians of firing the missile but what is the evidence? We need strong evidence to show that it was fired by the Russians, but it could have been the rebels in Ukraine, it could even be the Ukrainian government because they too have the same missile.

<...>

We don't know why we are excluded from the examination, but from the very beginning we see too much politics in it. The idea was not to find out how this happened and all that, but they seemed to be concentrated on trying to pin it on Russia . This is not a neutral kind of examination.

<...>

Here we have parties who have some political interest in the matter and they examine.

<...>

People from Russia - they are military people. Military people would know that it is a passenger plane. <...> I don't think [that] discipline, very highly discipline party would be responsible for launching the missile.

By the way, a year ago Malaysian Minister of Transport Anthony Loke spoke about this. The JIT obviously found this "not very important". Who would doubt. The task of covering up the Ukrainian regime that shot down the plane is still relevant. Just wondering how many more years they will play this farce with an "investigation".

John Smith , May 30, 2019 9:19:14 PM | 40

Posted by: alaff | May 30, 2019 9:08:42 PM | 39

Mahathir bin Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, in an interview with FCCJ (Foreign Correspondents' Club of Japan) stated that he did not believe in Russia's involvement in the crash of the Boeing MH17. The politician, in fact, directly accused the so-called JIT of being biased and not transparent.
------------------------

MH17 - 5 years on:

"How BBC faked an MH17 story" now available on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAZaloocFXs

Our official copyright dispute filed 30 days ago was not challenged. #MH17 #BBC

[May 19, 2019] MP Balitsky called Foreign Minister Klimkin a rat jumping the ship

May 17, 2019 | riafan.ru

The Minister of foreign Affairs of Ukraine Pavlo Klimkin tried to advertise in press the fact that he that wrote the resignation which will send to the Verkhovna Rada on May 20 -- the day of inauguration of the newly elected President of the country Vladimir Zelensky.

The Deputy of the Ukrainian Parliament Evgeny Balitsky told in an exclusive interview to Federal News Agency that everything that occurs in his homeland recently, reminds flight of rats from the ship.

"Now all run up, the administration leaves all systems, they, figuratively speaking, take away even the coffee, slippers and caps from the bar, -- he noted. -- We have never seen such a humiliating transition of power. It all. We saw similar episodes after (Viktor) Yushchenko and (Viktor) Yanukovich, but never this behaviour was such rabid, widespread and ugly"

Such, as the representative of party "Oppositional block" called it, "swine behaviour", you know, "digging out dirt from under nails in public" never occurred before. He noted that the current President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko, leaving, appointed new people to several departments.

"He does, you know, things that are not what the President, but any decent man would never do because this is just too ugly to do - complained the MP. -- It make sense to go beautifully, humanly, with dignity! And today that rats like Klimkin make statements how much they have done for people. For us, it's a lost five years. Just lost."

The deputy stressed that Klimkin hardly ashamed of their work. "These people don't know the word 'shame,' -- Balitsky said. -- These are people who for five years in the country destroyed the relations with all neighbors. I'm talking not only about the Russian Federation! We quarreled with Hungarians, Poles, Belarusians! We now have a conflict even with the Americans. You see, how much harm this gang of American henchmen, have done to our poor country!"

The Deputy of Rada explained that "all these people" -- are corrupt businessmen who used Ukraine to earn quick money.

"They invested money in the Maidan and came to power to get a royal return on the investment, -- Balitsky added. -- For these people the word "shame" does not exists, this is a completely foreign concept. And they are now leaving, are trying figuratively speaking to take the last pair of Slippers from their rooms, everything from the bar, grab from the buffet a couple of sandwiches, as Zelensky said."

The MP concluded that this is a very humiliating process for all Ukrainians, and he is personally ashamed of the power and statehood of his country.

Author: Marat Lashkin

[May 19, 2019] President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko by his decree released Oleksandr Turchynov from the post of Secretary of the national security and defense Council of Ukraine

That's that second key figure of EuroMaydan who bite the dust. "Snipergate" hero Parubiy is still standing.
May 19, 2019 | 112.ua

President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko by his decree released Oleksandr Turchynov from the post of Secretary of the national security and defense Council of Ukraine. This was reported on the website of the presidential administration.

"To release Turchynov Alexander Valentinovich from the post of Secretary of the national security and defense Council of Ukraine," the decree says.

Turchynov resigned the day before. The reason for dismissal - termination of powers of the acting President of Ukraine who appointed Turchinov.

Secretary of the NSDC Turchinov has been working since December 2014. Prior to that, he worked in the Verkhovna Rada, in the spring of the same year, acting President of Ukraine.

[May 11, 2019] Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire by KENNETH P. VOGEL and DAVID STERN

Notable quotes:
"... Almost as quickly as Chalupa's efforts attracted the attention of the Ukrainian Embassy and Democrats, she also found herself the subject of some unwanted attention from overseas. ..."
"... Chalupa, though, indicated in an email that was later hacked and released by WikiLeaks that the Open World Leadership Center "put me on the program to speak specifically about Paul Manafort." ..."
"... In the email, which was sent in early May to then-DNC communications director Luis Miranda, Chalupa noted that she had extended an invitation to the Library of Congress forum to veteran Washington investigative reporter Michael Isikoff. Two days before the event, he had published a story for Yahoo News revealing the unraveling of a $26 million deal between Manafort and a Russian oligarch related to a telecommunications venture in Ukraine. And Chalupa wrote in the email she'd been "working with for the past few weeks" with Isikoff "and connected him to the Ukrainians" at the event. ..."
"... A DNC official stressed that Chalupa was a consultant paid to do outreach for the party's political department, not a researcher. She undertook her investigations into Trump, Manafort and Russia on her own, and the party did not incorporate her findings in its dossiers on the subjects, the official said, stressing that the DNC had been building robust research books on Trump and his ties to Russia long before Chalupa began sounding alarms. ..."
Jan 11, 2017 | www.politico.com

Manafort's work for Yanukovych caught the attention of a veteran Democratic operative named Alexandra Chalupa, who had worked in the White House Office of Public Liaison during the Clinton administration. Chalupa went on to work as a staffer, then as a consultant, for Democratic National Committee. The DNC paid her $412,000 from 2004 to June 2016, according to Federal Election Commission records, though she also was paid by other clients during that time, including Democratic campaigns and the DNC's arm for engaging expatriate Democrats around the world.

A daughter of Ukrainian immigrants who maintains strong ties to the Ukrainian-American diaspora and the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine, Chalupa, a lawyer by training, in 2014 was doing pro bono work for another client interested in the Ukrainian crisis and began researching Manafort's role in Yanukovych's rise, as well as his ties to the pro-Russian oligarchs who funded Yanukovych's political party.

In an interview this month, Chalupa told Politico she had developed a network of sources in Kiev and Washington, including investigative journalists, government officials and private intelligence operatives. While her consulting work at the DNC this past election cycle centered on mobilizing ethnic communities -- including Ukrainian-Americans -- she said that, when Trump's unlikely presidential campaign began surging in late 2015, she began focusing more on the research, and expanded it to include Trump's ties to Russia, as well.

She occasionally shared her findings with officials from the DNC and Clinton's campaign, Chalupa said. In January 2016 -- months before Manafort had taken any role in Trump's campaign -- Chalupa told a senior DNC official that, when it came to Trump's campaign, "I felt there was a Russia connection," Chalupa recalled. "And that, if there was, that we can expect Paul Manafort to be involved in this election," said Chalupa, who at the time also was warning leaders in the Ukrainian-American community that Manafort was "Putin's political brain for manipulating U.S. foreign policy and elections."

he said she shared her concern with Ukraine's ambassador to the U.S., Valeriy Chaly, and one of his top aides, Oksana Shulyar, during a March 2016 meeting at the Ukrainian Embassy. According to someone briefed on the meeting, Chaly said that Manafort was very much on his radar, but that he wasn't particularly concerned about the operative's ties to Trump since he didn't believe Trump stood much of a chance of winning the GOP nomination, let alone the presidency.

That was not an uncommon view at the time, and, perhaps as a result, Trump's ties to Russia -- let alone Manafort's -- were not the subject of much attention.
That all started to change just four days after Chalupa's meeting at the embassy, when it was reported that Trump had in fact hired Manafort, suggesting that Chalupa may have been on to something. She quickly found herself in high demand. The day after Manafort's hiring was revealed, she briefed the DNC's communications staff on Manafort, Trump and their ties to Russia, according to an operative familiar with the situation.

A former DNC staffer described the exchange as an "informal conversation," saying "'briefing' makes it sound way too formal," and adding, "We were not directing or driving her work on this." Yet, the former DNC staffer and the operative familiar with the situation agreed that with the DNC's encouragement, Chalupa asked embassy staff to try to arrange an interview in which Poroshenko might discuss Manafort's ties to Yanukovych.

While the embassy declined that request, officials there became "helpful" in Chalupa's efforts, she said, explaining that she traded information and leads with them. "If I asked a question, they would provide guidance, or if there was someone I needed to follow up with." But she stressed, "There were no documents given, nothing like that."

Chalupa said the embassy also worked directly with reporters researching Trump, Manafort and Russia to point them in the right directions. She added, though, "they were being very protective and not speaking to the press as much as they should have. I think they were being careful because their situation was that they had to be very, very careful because they could not pick sides. It's a political issue, and they didn't want to get involved politically because they couldn't."

Shulyar vehemently denied working with reporters or with Chalupa on anything related to Trump or Manafort, explaining "we were stormed by many reporters to comment on this subject, but our clear and adamant position was not to give any comment [and] not to interfere into the campaign affairs."

Both Shulyar and Chalupa said the purpose of their initial meeting was to organize a June reception at the embassy to promote Ukraine. According to the embassy's website, the event highlighted female Ukrainian leaders, featuring speeches by Ukrainian parliamentarian Hanna Hopko, who discussed "Ukraine's fight against the Russian aggression in Donbas," and longtime Hillary Clinton confidante Melanne Verveer, who worked for Clinton in the State Department and was a vocal surrogate during the presidential campaign.

Shulyar said her work with Chalupa "didn't involve the campaign," and she specifically stressed that "We have never worked to research and disseminate damaging information about Donald Trump and Paul Manafort."

But Andrii Telizhenko, who worked as a political officer in the Ukrainian Embassy under Shulyar, said she instructed him to help Chalupa research connections between Trump, Manafort and Russia. "Oksana said that if I had any information, or knew other people who did, then I should contact Chalupa," recalled Telizhenko, who is now a political consultant in Kiev. "They were coordinating an investigation with the Hillary team on Paul Manafort with Alexandra Chalupa," he said, adding "Oksana was keeping it all quiet," but "the embassy worked very closely with" Chalupa.

In fact, sources familiar with the effort say that Shulyar specifically called Telizhenko into a meeting with Chalupa to provide an update on an American media outlet's ongoing investigation into Manafort.

Telizhenko recalled that Chalupa told him and Shulyar that, "If we can get enough information on Paul [Manafort] or Trump's involvement with Russia, she can get a hearing in Congress by September."

Chalupa confirmed that, a week after Manafort's hiring was announced, she discussed the possibility of a congressional investigation with a foreign policy legislative assistant in the office of Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio), who co-chairs the Congressional Ukrainian Caucus. But, Chalupa said, "It didn't go anywhere."

Asked about the effort, the Kaptur legislative assistant called it a "touchy subject" in an internal email to colleagues that was accidentally forwarded to Politico.

Kaptur's office later emailed an official statement explaining that the lawmaker is backing a bill to create an independent commission to investigate "possible outside interference in our elections." The office added "at this time, the evidence related to this matter points to Russia, but Congresswoman Kaptur is concerned with any evidence of foreign entities interfering in our elections."

•••

Almost as quickly as Chalupa's efforts attracted the attention of the Ukrainian Embassy and Democrats, she also found herself the subject of some unwanted attention from overseas.

Within a few weeks of her initial meeting at the embassy with Shulyar and Chaly, Chalupa on April 20 received the first of what became a series of messages from the administrators of her private Yahoo email account, warning her that "state-sponsored actors" were trying to hack into her emails.

She kept up her crusade, appearing on a panel a week after the initial hacking message to discuss her research on Manafort with a group of Ukrainian investigative journalists gathered at the Library of Congress for a program sponsored by a U.S. congressional agency called the Open World Leadership Center.

Center spokeswoman Maura Shelden stressed that her group is nonpartisan and ensures "that our delegations hear from both sides of the aisle, receiving bipartisan information." She said the Ukrainian journalists in subsequent days met with Republican officials in North Carolina and elsewhere. And she said that, before the Library of Congress event, "Open World's program manager for Ukraine did contact Chalupa to advise her that Open World is a nonpartisan agency of the Congress."

Chalupa, though, indicated in an email that was later hacked and released by WikiLeaks that the Open World Leadership Center "put me on the program to speak specifically about Paul Manafort."

In the email, which was sent in early May to then-DNC communications director Luis Miranda, Chalupa noted that she had extended an invitation to the Library of Congress forum to veteran Washington investigative reporter Michael Isikoff. Two days before the event, he had published a story for Yahoo News revealing the unraveling of a $26 million deal between Manafort and a Russian oligarch related to a telecommunications venture in Ukraine. And Chalupa wrote in the email she'd been "working with for the past few weeks" with Isikoff "and connected him to the Ukrainians" at the event.

Isikoff, who accompanied Chalupa to a reception at the Ukrainian Embassy immediately after the Library of Congress event, declined to comment.

Chalupa further indicated in her hacked May email to the DNC that she had additional sensitive information about Manafort that she intended to share "offline" with Miranda and DNC research director Lauren Dillon, including "a big Trump component you and Lauren need to be aware of that will hit in next few weeks and something I'm working on you should be aware of." Explaining that she didn't feel comfortable sharing the intel over email, Chalupa attached a screenshot of a warning from Yahoo administrators about "state-sponsored" hacking on her account, explaining, "Since I started digging into Manafort these messages have been a daily occurrence on my yahoo account despite changing my password often."

Dillon and Miranda declined to comment.

A DNC official stressed that Chalupa was a consultant paid to do outreach for the party's political department, not a researcher. She undertook her investigations into Trump, Manafort and Russia on her own, and the party did not incorporate her findings in its dossiers on the subjects, the official said, stressing that the DNC had been building robust research books on Trump and his ties to Russia long before Chalupa began sounding alarms.

Nonetheless, Chalupa's hacked email reportedly escalated concerns among top party officials, hardening their conclusion that Russia likely was behind the cyber intrusions with which the party was only then beginning to grapple.

Chalupa left the DNC after the Democratic convention in late July to focus fulltime on her research into Manafort, Trump and Russia . She said she provided off-the-record information and guidance to "a lot of journalists" working on stories related to Manafort and Trump's Russia connections, despite what she described as escalating harassment.

About a month-and-a-half after Chalupa first started receiving hacking alerts, someone broke into her car outside the Northwest Washington home where she lives with her husband and three young daughters, she said. They "rampaged it, basically, but didn't take anything valuable -- left money, sunglasses, $1,200 worth of golf clubs," she said, explaining she didn't file a police report after that incident because she didn't connect it to her research and the hacking.

But by the time a similar vehicle break-in occurred involving two family cars, she was convinced that it was a Russia-linked intimidation campaign. The police report on the latter break-in noted that "both vehicles were unlocked by an unknown person and the interior was ransacked, with papers and the garage openers scattered throughout the cars. Nothing was taken from the vehicles."

Then, early in the morning on another day, a woman "wearing white flowers in her hair" tried to break into her family's home at 1:30 a.m., Chalupa said. Shulyar told Chalupa that the mysterious incident bore some of the hallmarks of intimidation campaigns used against foreigners in Russia, according to Chalupa.

"This is something that they do to U.S. diplomats, they do it to Ukrainians. Like, this is how they operate. They break into people's homes. They harass people. They're theatrical about it," Chalupa said. "They must have seen when I was writing to the DNC staff, outlining who Manafort was, pulling articles, saying why it was significant, and painting the bigger picture."

In a Yahoo News story naming Chalupa as one of 16 "ordinary people" who "shaped the 2016 election," Isikoff wrote that after Chalupa left the DNC, FBI agents investigating the hacking questioned her and examined her laptop and smartphone.

Chalupa this month told Politico that, as her research and role in the election started becoming more public, she began receiving death threats, along with continued alerts of state-sponsored hacking. But she said, "None of this has scared me off."

•••

While it's not uncommon for outside operatives to serve as intermediaries between governments and reporters, one of the more damaging Russia-related stories for the Trump campaign -- and certainly for Manafort -- can be traced more directly to the Ukrainian government.

Documents released by an independent Ukrainian government agency -- and publicized by a parliamentarian -- appeared to show $12.7 million in cash payments that were earmarked for Manafort by the Russia-aligned party of the deposed former president, Yanukovych.

The New York Times, in the August story revealing the ledgers' existence, reported that the payments earmarked for Manafort were "a focus" of an investigation by Ukrainian anti-corruption officials, while CNN reported days later that the FBI was pursuing an overlapping inquiry.

Clinton's campaign seized on the story to advance Democrats' argument that Trump's campaign was closely linked to Russia. The ledger represented "more troubling connections between Donald Trump's team and pro-Kremlin elements in Ukraine," Robby Mook, Clinton's campaign manager, said in a statement. He demanded that Trump "disclose campaign chair Paul Manafort's and all other campaign employees' and advisers' ties to Russian or pro-Kremlin entities, including whether any of Trump's employees or advisers are currently representing and or being paid by them."

A former Ukrainian investigative journalist and current parliamentarian named Serhiy Leshchenko, who was elected in 2014 as part of Poroshenko's party, held a news conference to highlight the ledgers, and to urge Ukrainian and American law enforcement to aggressively investigate Manafort.

"I believe and understand the basis of these payments are totally against the law -- we have the proof from these books," Leshchenko said during the news conference, which attracted international media coverage. "If Mr. Manafort denies any allegations, I think he has to be interrogated into this case and prove his position that he was not involved in any misconduct on the territory of Ukraine," Leshchenko added.

Manafort denied receiving any off-books cash from Yanukovych's Party of Regions, and said that he had never been contacted about the ledger by Ukrainian or American investigators, later telling POLITICO "I was just caught in the crossfire."

According to a series of memos reportedly compiled for Trump's opponents by a former British intelligence agent, Yanukovych, in a secret meeting with Putin on the day after the Times published its report, admitted that he had authorized "substantial kickback payments to Manafort." But according to the report, which was published Tuesday by BuzzFeed but remains unverified. Yanukovych assured Putin "that there was no documentary trail left behind which could provide clear evidence of this" -- an alleged statement that seemed to implicitly question the authenticity of the ledger.

The scrutiny around the ledgers -- combined with that from other stories about his Ukraine work -- proved too much, and he stepped down from the Trump campaign less than a week after the Times story.

At the time, Leshchenko suggested that his motivation was partly to undermine Trump. "For me, it was important to show not only the corruption aspect, but that he is [a] pro-Russian candidate who can break the geopolitical balance in the world," Leshchenko told the Financial Times about two weeks after his news conference. The newspaper noted that Trump's candidacy had spurred "Kiev's wider political leadership to do something they would never have attempted before: intervene, however indirectly, in a U.S. election," and the story quoted Leshchenko asserting that the majority of Ukraine's politicians are "on Hillary Clinton's side."

But by this month, Leshchenko was seeking to recast his motivation, telling Politico, "I didn't care who won the U.S. elections. This was a decision for the American voters to decide." His goal in highlighting the ledgers, he said was "to raise these issues on a political level and emphasize the importance of the investigation."

In a series of answers provided to Politico, a spokesman for Poroshenko distanced his administration from both Leshchenko's efforts and those of the agency that reLeshchenko Leshchenko leased the ledgers, The National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine. It was created in 2014 as a condition for Ukraine to receive aid from the U.S. and the European Union, and it signed an evidence-sharing agreement with the FBI in late June -- less than a month and a half before it released the ledgers.

The bureau is "fully independent," the Poroshenko spokesman said, adding that when it came to the presidential administration there was "no targeted action against Manafort." He added "as to Serhiy Leshchenko, he positions himself as a representative of internal opposition in the Bloc of Petro Poroshenko's faction, despite [the fact that] he belongs to the faction," the spokesman said, adding, "it was about him personally who pushed [the anti-corruption bureau] to proceed with investigation on Manafort."

But an operative who has worked extensively in Ukraine, including as an adviser to Poroshenko, said it was highly unlikely that either Leshchenko or the anti-corruption bureau would have pushed the issue without at least tacit approval from Poroshenko or his closest allies.

"It was something that Poroshenko was probably aware of and could have stopped if he wanted to," said the operative.

And, almost immediately after Trump's stunning victory over Clinton, questions began mounting about the investigations into the ledgers -- and the ledgers themselves.

An official with the anti-corruption bureau told a Ukrainian newspaper, "Mr. Manafort does not have a role in this case."

And, while the anti-corruption bureau told Politico late last month that a "general investigation [is] still ongoing" of the ledger, it said Manafort is not a target of the investigation. "As he is not the Ukrainian citizen, [the anti-corruption bureau] by the law couldn't investigate him personally," the bureau said in a statement.

Some Poroshenko critics have gone further, suggesting that the bureau is backing away from investigating because the ledgers might have been doctored or even forged.

Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, a Ukrainian former diplomat who served as the country's head of security under Poroshenko but is now affiliated with a leading opponent of Poroshenko, said it was fishy that "only one part of the black ledger appeared." He asked, "Where is the handwriting analysis?" and said it was "crazy" to announce an investigation based on the ledgers. He met last month in Washington with Trump allies, and said, "of course they all recognize that our [anti-corruption bureau] intervened in the presidential campaign."

And in an interview this week, Manafort, who re-emerged as an informal advisor to Trump after Election Day, suggested that the ledgers were inauthentic and called their publication "a politically motivated false attack on me. My role as a paid consultant was public. There was nothing off the books, but the way that this was presented tried to make it look shady."

He added that he felt particularly wronged by efforts to cast his work in Ukraine as pro-Russian, arguing "all my efforts were focused on helping Ukraine move into Europe and the West." He specifically cited his work on denuclearizing the country and on the European Union trade and political pact that Yanukovych spurned before fleeing to Russia. "In no case was I ever involved in anything that would be contrary to U.S. interests," Manafort said.

Yet Russia seemed to come to the defense of Manafort and Trump last month, when a spokeswoman for Russia's Foreign Ministry charged that the Ukrainian government used the ledgers as a political weapon.

"Ukraine seriously complicated the work of Trump's election campaign headquarters by planting information according to which Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman, allegedly accepted money from Ukrainian oligarchs," Maria Zakharova said at a news briefing, according to a transcript of her remarks posted on the Foreign Ministry's website. "All of you have heard this remarkable story," she told assembled reporters.

•••

Beyond any efforts to sabotage Trump, Ukrainian officials didn't exactly extend a hand of friendship to the GOP nominee during the campaign.

The ambassador, Chaly, penned an op-ed for The Hill, in which he chastised Trump for a confusing series of statements in which the GOP candidate at one point expressed a willingness to consider recognizing Russia's annexation of the Ukrainian territory of Crimea as legitimate. The op-ed made some in the embassy uneasy, sources said.

"That was like too close for comfort, even for them," said Chalupa. "That was something that was as risky as they were going to be."

Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk warned on Facebook that Trump had "challenged the very values of the free world."

Ukraine's minister of internal affairs, Arsen Avakov, piled on, trashing Trump on Twitter in July as a "clown" and asserting that Trump is "an even bigger danger to the US than terrorism."

Avakov, in a Facebook post, lashed out at Trump for his confusing Crimea comments, calling the assessment the "diagnosis of a dangerous misfit," according to a translated screenshot featured in one media report, though he later deleted the post. He called Trump "dangerous for Ukraine and the US" and noted that Manafort worked with Yanukovych when the former Ukrainian leader "fled to Russia through Crimea. Where would Manafort lead Trump?"

The Trump-Ukraine relationship grew even more fraught in September with reports that the GOP nominee had snubbed Poroshenko on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York, where the Ukrainian president tried to meet both major party candidates, but scored only a meeting with Clinton.

Telizhenko, the former embassy staffer, said that, during the primaries, Chaly, the country's ambassador in Washington, had actually instructed the embassy not to reach out to Trump's campaign, even as it was engaging with those of Clinton and Trump's leading GOP rival, Ted Cruz.

"We had an order not to talk to the Trump team, because he was critical of Ukraine and the government and his critical position on Crimea and the conflict," said Telizhenko. "I was yelled at when I proposed to talk to Trump," he said, adding, "The ambassador said not to get involved -- Hillary is going to win."

This account was confirmed by Nalyvaichenko, the former diplomat and security chief now affiliated with a Poroshenko opponent, who said, "The Ukrainian authorities closed all doors and windows -- this is from the Ukrainian side." He called the strategy "bad and short-sighted."

Andriy Artemenko, a Ukrainian parliamentarian associated with a conservative opposition party, did meet with Trump's team during the campaign and said he personally offered to set up similar meetings for Chaly but was rebuffed.

"It was clear that they were supporting Hillary Clinton's candidacy," Artemenko said. "They did everything from organizing meetings with the Clinton team, to publicly supporting her, to criticizing Trump. I think that they simply didn't meet because they thought that Hillary would win."

Shulyar rejected the characterizations that the embassy had a ban on interacting with Trump, instead explaining that it "had different diplomats assigned for dealing with different teams tailoring the content and messaging. So it was not an instruction to abstain from the engagement but rather an internal discipline for diplomats not to get involved into a field she or he was not assigned to, but where another colleague was involved."

And she pointed out that Chaly traveled to the GOP convention in Cleveland in late July and met with members of Trump's foreign policy team "to highlight the importance of Ukraine and the support of it by the U.S."

Despite the outreach, Trump's campaign in Cleveland gutted a proposed amendment to the Republican Party platform that called for the U.S. to provide "lethal defensive weapons" for Ukraine to defend itself against Russian incursion, backers of the measure charged.

The outreach ramped up after Trump's victory. Shulyar pointed out that Poroshenko was among the first foreign leaders to call to congratulate Trump. And she said that, since Election Day, Chaly has met with close Trump allies, including Sens. Jeff Sessions, Trump's nominee for attorney general, and Bob Corker, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, while the ambassador accompanied Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Ukraine's vice prime minister for European and Euro-Atlantic integration, to a round of Washington meetings with Rep. Tom Marino (R-Pa.), an early Trump backer, and Jim DeMint, president of The Heritage Foundation, which played a prominent role in Trump's transition.

•••

Many Ukrainian officials and operatives and their American allies see Trump's inauguration this month as an existential threat to the country, made worse, they admit, by the dissemination of the secret ledger, the antagonistic social media posts and the perception that the embassy meddled against -- or at least shut out -- Trump.

"It's really bad. The [Poroshenko] administration right now is trying to re-coordinate communications," said Telizhenko, adding, "The Trump organization doesn't want to talk to our administration at all."

During Nalyvaichenko's trip to Washington last month, he detected lingering ill will toward Ukraine from some, and lack of interest from others, he recalled. "Ukraine is not on the top of the list, not even the middle," he said.

Poroshenko's allies are scrambling to figure out how to build a relationship with Trump, who is known for harboring and prosecuting grudges for years.

A delegation of Ukrainian parliamentarians allied with Poroshenko last month traveled to Washington partly to try to make inroads with the Trump transition team, but they were unable to secure a meeting, according to a Washington foreign policy operative familiar with the trip. And operatives in Washington and Kiev say that after the election, Poroshenko met in Kiev with top executives from the Washington lobbying firm BGR -- including Ed Rogers and Lester Munson -- about how to navigate the Trump regime.

Weeks later, BGR reported to the Department of Justice that the government of Ukraine would pay the firm $50,000 a month to "provide strategic public relations and government affairs counsel," including "outreach to U.S. government officials, non-government organizations, members of the media and other individuals."

Firm spokesman Jeffrey Birnbaum suggested that "pro-Putin oligarchs" were already trying to sow doubts about BGR's work with Poroshenko. While the firm maintains close relationships with GOP congressional leaders, several of its principals were dismissive or sharply critical of Trump during the GOP primary, which could limit their effectiveness lobbying the new administration.

The Poroshenko regime's standing with Trump is considered so dire that the president's allies after the election actually reached out to make amends with -- and even seek assistance from -- Manafort, according to two operatives familiar with Ukraine's efforts to make inroads with Trump.

Meanwhile, Poroshenko's rivals are seeking to capitalize on his dicey relationship with Trump's team. Some are pressuring him to replace Chaly, a close ally of Poroshenko's who is being blamed by critics in Kiev and Washington for implementing -- if not engineering -- the country's anti-Trump efforts, according to Ukrainian and U.S. politicians and operatives interviewed for this story. They say that several potential Poroshenko opponents have been through Washington since the election seeking audiences of their own with Trump allies, though most have failed to do do so.

"None of the Ukrainians have any access to Trump -- they are all desperate to get it, and are willing to pay big for it," said one American consultant whose company recently met in Washington with Yuriy Boyko, a former vice prime minister under Yanukovych. Boyko, who like Yanukovych has a pro-Russian worldview, is considering a presidential campaign of his own, and his representatives offered "to pay a shit-ton of money" to get access to Trump and his inaugural events, according to the consultant.

The consultant turned down the work, explaining, "It sounded shady, and we don't want to get in the middle of that kind of stuff."

[May 10, 2019] Looks like Nuland participated in Spygate (aka Russiagate)

May 03, 2019 | www.theepochtimes.com

Originally from: Spygate The True Story of Collusion [Infographic] by Jeff Carlson ( October 12, 2018 Updated: May 3, 2019 )

State Department

The State Department, with its many contacts within foreign governments, became a conduit for the flow of information. The transfer of Christopher Steele's first dossier memo was personally facilitated by Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs. Nuland gave approval for FBI agent Michael Gaeta to travel to London to obtain the memo from Steele. The memo may have passed directly from her to FBI leadership. Secretary of State John Kerry was also given a copy.

Steele was already well-known within the State Department. Following Steele's involvement in the FIFA scandal investigation, he began to provide reports informally to the State Department. The reports were written for a "private client" but were "shared widely within the U.S. State Department, and sent up to Secretary of State John Kerry and Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, who was in charge of the U.S. response to Putin's annexation of Crimea and covert invasion of eastern Ukraine," the Guardian reported.

In July 2016, when the FBI wanted to send Gaeta to visit Steele in London, the bureau sought permission from the office of Nuland, who provided this version of events during a Feb. 4, 2018, appearance on CBS's "Face the Nation":

"In the middle of July, when [Steele] was doing this other work and became concerned, he passed two to four pages of short points of what he was finding and our immediate reaction to that was, this is not in our purview. This needs to go to the FBI if there is any concern here that one candidate or the election as a whole might be influenced by the Russian Federation. That's something for the FBI to investigate."

Steele also met with Jonathan Winer, a former deputy assistant secretary of state for international law enforcement and former special envoy for Libya. Steele and Winer had known each other since at least 2010. In an opinion article in The Washington Post, Winer wrote the following:

"In September 2016, Steele and I met in Washington and discussed the information now known as the 'dossier.' Steele's sources suggested that the Kremlin not only had been behind the hacking of the Democratic National Committee and the Hillary Clinton campaign but also had compromised Trump and developed ties with his associates and campaign."

In a strange turn of events, Winer also received a separate dossier , very similar to Steele's, from long-time Clinton confidant Sidney Blumenthal. This "second dossier" had been compiled by another longtime Clinton operative, former journalist Cody Shearer, and echoed claims made in the Steele dossier. Winer then met with Steele in late September 2016 and gave Steele a copy of the "second dossier." Steele went on to share this second dossier with the FBI, which may have used it to corroborate his dossier.

Other foreign officials also used conduits into the State Department. Alexander Downer, Australia's high commissioner to the UK, reportedly funneled his conversation with Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos -- later used as a reason to open the FBI's counterintelligence investigation -- directly to the U.S. Embassy in London.

"The Downer details landed with the embassy's then-chargé d'affaires, Elizabeth Dibble, who previously served as a principal deputy assistant secretary in Mrs. Clinton's State Department," The Wall Street Journal's Kimberley Strassel wrote in a May 31, 2018, article .

If true, this would mean that neither Australian intelligence nor the Australian government alerted the FBI to the Papadopoulos information. What happened with the Downer details, and to whom they were ultimately relayed, remains unknown.

Curiously, details surprisingly similar to the Papadopoulos–Downer conversation show up in the first memo written by Steele on June 20, 2016:

"A dossier of compromising information on Hillary Clinton has been collated by the Russian Intelligence Services over many years and mainly comprises bugged conversations she had on various visits to Russia and intercepted phone calls. It has not yet been distributed abroad, including to Trump."

Jeff Carlson is a regular contributor to The Epoch Times. He also runs the website TheMarketsWork.com and can be followed on Twitter @themarketswork.

[May 03, 2019] The Deputy of the Berlin city Parliament suggested to try Poroshenko in the international Tribunal

Poroshenko was a marionette. The decisions were make outside Ukraine.
May 03, 2019 | mt.gazeta.ru

Lindemann told the site kp.ru that personally saw letters of bodies of justice of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk national republics (DNR and LNR) according to which 90% of shells arrived to Donbass from the territory of Ukraine.

"The reports serve as the purest proof that Poroshenko did not want peace for Donbass," the Deputy concluded.

He told that the Ukrainian army strongly damaged the bridge in the Village Lugansk. Now through its destroyed spans are thrown wooden stairs, which have to pass civilians, including the elderly, said Lindemann. According to the Deputy, the authorities can't repair the bridge, as in this case the Ukrainian army will destroy it again. The politician called Kiev's position on this issue terrible: the European countries were going to allocate money for repair of the bridge, but the Ukrainian authorities didn't allow to make it.

Lindemann emphasized that the Tribunal for Poroshenko and his colleagues guilty of a situation in Donbass, has to be fair. In world history, there were no cases when the current President fell under the international court of justice with such accusations, so it can only be possible after Poroshenko will resign the powers of the head of state in May, the Deputy said.

The German politician called Poroshenko a military junta leader who stole resources from the armed conflict for personal enrichment. Lindemann expressed the hope that with the coming to power in Ukraine a new people, the confrontation in the Donbass will cease.

[May 03, 2019] Interview with Viktor Medvedchuk Vasily Golovanov on NewsOne

Slightly edited Google translation
May 03, 2019 | 112.ua

Vasyl Golovanov : ...We live with this President for 5 years. Whether you expected such result and what, in your opinion, to expect from Vladimir Aleksandrovich.

Viktor Medvedchuk : Vasily, this result was expected. At least he was predictable, because Poroshenko should not have become and did not become President. And the reason for this is his policy, which our party has repeatedly spoken about. And not only our party, but actually opposition forces which in the majority United in questions of criticism of mister Poroshenko. And they talked about peace in the Donbass, and the cessation of hostilities, talked about the tariff genocide, national radicalism, the impoverishment of millions of citizens, criminal lawlessness, social injustice and many other circumstances that pointed to what characterizes this regime Poroshenko, which for some reason they called "Euro-reformist", which actually ruined the country in the economy, social sphere, in the crisis of the political sphere.

And all this had to end, naturally, with Poroshenko's defeat. And this defeat took place.

... ... ...

In 1991, when Kravchuk became President, he scored 61.6%. It was a record that was never broken until actually here on April 21, 2019, when Zelensky won. And it is a great responsibility, to a great deal. Indeed, our country will live with a new President, with a new power, I hope, I am far from the idea that this power will remain. And what is happening today - a new team is being formed - comes with the fact that Mr. Zelensky is preparing to take office. I think she is facing very relevant challenges. The first was the resignation of the Cabinet of Ministers. Because with incompetent, untrained professionally, populist government of Mr. Groisman, actually is can be called the government of Mr. Yatsenyuk, the country is unable to live any longer.

And if Zelensky, who received such massive support, does not change the team, which, of course, what is expected of him, he will not be able to realize his election promises.

And therefore - this is the main task that must be performed. It's strategic. And that is what stands before him now and will be for 5 years. It is necessary to justify the trust that he received. To meet these expectations, and they are very high. Which means the requirements will be too high. He must be aware of that.

Vasily Golovanov: We will talk about Vladimir Zelensky later. I would also like to mention Pyotr Alekseevich. In your words, Poroshenko's complete failure is the people's response to his Russophobic policy. In your opinion, what will Zelensky's policy be?

Viktor Medvedchuk: it Is difficult to talk about what Zelensky's policy will be, but I do not think he will repeat the mistakes that Mr Poroshenko made. That is, Mr. Poroshenko, especially in the last months of the election campaign, the last months of activity as President, really elevated to the rank of the state policy of anti-Russian hysteria and caveman level Russophobia. This is a fact. He built the whole campaign on that. And here is even his slogan: "Army. Faith. Language" -- these words and these meanings for the country, for the Ukrainian people, they are very important. But what he did with them his manipulation of people psychology and his perversion of populism exceptional - they led to a backlash.

You will notice how Mr. Zelensky won, where he won the most votes. He scored them in the East - 88%, in the South - 86%. Do you know how much he scored in the Luhansk region? 90%. Do you know that Luhansk region has always been the most Russian-speaking region after Crimea in all the years of independence? Tell me, why did it vote?

Vasily Golovanov : It concerns cities, in villages there are Ukrainian speakers too, even in the Luhansk region.

Viktor Medvedchuk : The Question is different - their attitude. Of course, I am far from believing that the votes he received are votes only for him, votes against Poroshenko in the first place.

Vasily Golovanov : The Question of Peter Alekseevich and language is one of the slogans of his election campaign. We remember: about two weeks before the election he was a guest of "Freedom of speech" on ICTV, where he said to the question about the language: "Actually, I am Russian-speaking".

Viktor Medvedchuk : Of course, we know that.

Vasily Golovanov : And how did it happen that the person who hangs out on all boards - "Army. Faith. Language, " puts the emphasis on it, and it's one of the priorities of his campaign, at some point... It's as if he confessed to a different faith...

Viktor Medvedchuk : How did it happen that he admitted this during the election campaign just before the second round? Why would he do that? Perhaps he was beginning to realize the strategic mistake he had made when he spoke of language.

Because are there any Ukrainians today who are against the fact that the status of Ukrainian as the only state language is strengthened, developed and provides those opportunities in which the Ukrainian language should be, first of all, competitive, attractive and have other qualities that could allow it? No! But at the same time, we cannot ignore or discriminate against the Russian language and the language of other national minorities.

Moreover, he would not have succeeded, because the Constitution in article 10 has the status and part 3 of article 10 says that the territory of Ukraine guarantees the free development, use and protection of Russian and other languages of national minorities.

Why did he come, as you say, on Monday, before the second round, and told that he was Russian-speaking? And who did not know that Mr. Poroshenko was Russian-speaking? Do you think it is that, in different situations spoke in the Ukrainian language? I never spoke with him in Ukrainian, only in Russian. Well, maybe it's not an indicator, but it means not just focus, not just the attractiveness of a person, including in the use of language. This is a direct indication that a person has it inside. Why are you ignoring this?

Yes, you must develop the Ukrainian language. You are the President of Ukraine, but you should not allow disrespect, mockery and discrimination of other languages, including Russian. And so this reaction is also a response to what he was doing. That's direct result of his policies.

[May 03, 2019] Mr. Zelensky, if the Cabinet of Ministers does not listen to you and even more increases the cost of gas, the cost of utilities, block its activities!

Slightly edited Goggle translation
May 03, 2019 | 112.ua

Mr. Zelensky, get right and do it! Then, if the Cabinet of Ministers does not listen to you and sets its resolutions, and even more increases the cost of gas, the cost of utilities, block its activities! Any decision of the Cabinet can be stopped, blocked and appealed to the constitutional court for reasons of non-compliance with the Constitution! It's the President's right! So do not talk about the fact that it is impossible!

And when we talk about reducing tariffs, you will study the structure of these tariffs. My advice. Although, I do not advocate giving advice and this is not advice, and my vision. And you ask about the pricing structure of utility tariffs, including the cost of gas. You'll see that what's in there is props. And it's in the derivatives. About what, about what you said: Rotterdam+... When this involves the cost of coal, and in parallel or, more precisely, directly coal is electricity and is laid in tariffs. Dusseldorf + - the cost of gas. And it is laid in the tariffs for gas, which means - for hot water and heat. And much more, where the derivative is gas. That's all she wrote. No need to tell stories and send somewhere. It is necessary to send to itself and as promised, to do so that it would be possible to improve life of our people.

Vasily Golovanov: Then I also want to talk about gas and coal... If we make this detour now, or pretend that we are not buying Russian gas, although we are buying Russian gas, it is simply more expensive in Europe. Then why do we buy fuel? Why is our government so.

Viktor Medvedchuk: Because we buy Russian gas directly. In fact, look, I listened in one of Your programs, in the "Ukrainian format" somewhere right after the second round, it seems that you had a discussion, very interesting. Professionals told about it, but they do not fully understand this scheme. I'm just saying it because I know it. But it said about Velky kapushany. Look here - Russia, - Ukraine, but the Ukrainian border with Slovakia...That is, in Europe, velki kapushany, where there is a so-called accounting station. What is done? What's happening? Gas comes from the territory of Russia, comes to Ukraine - it is a gas transportation system. It dissolves in this system and goes to different needs. We don't have a line Russia - Europe on which there is the gas transit, which is operators, recipients and consumers of Europeans.

No! He's spent here, but it automatically comes to this border and Wielkie Capuano should count on the Ukrainian side, where they say the gas is out! There is 100 million cubic meters. And the other counter, here, suggests that the gas came to Europe. So what did? You imagine the Scam of this scheme. They closed this square. Moreover, this is not the worst thing... That's when I listened to what was said in the "Ukrainian format", I thought, well, now... The person who spoke, he, in principle, the professional. I thought he was gonna tell me what it was about. And he says: "They there gas this drive. Maybe he doesn't even exist." No, not that. They closed the circle. And this gas in one volume chases on this pipe. Why this is done? In order to show on the counter that he went to Europe.

For example, his buyer, on paper, is a French operator, gas operator. It is the papers I wrote - I got 100 million, because this counter is reflected and all - no complaints. And this gas when came, it already here 100 million, and we already used it here, but bought allegedly there. And then, when they say: here is the gas on the reverse. What reverse? What is the reverse? If the gas goes in one direction, how can it go in the opposite direction? Think about it! Well, gas goes to Europe, we put 89 billion there last year, the year before, left 94 billion there, it goes in one... How can you go, then stop, and go back? Or what? That is, those who talk about it, just do not know, and those who "vtyuhivayut" us, trying to bend in the understanding of all, to deceive. This is pure insanity.

It's not just a scheme. They also provide the price Dusseldorf+,1500 km. And these $42, shoulder the logistics they put into the scheme. That is, in pricing - it's net earnings. Then they are transferred into the rates and our people are paying. At attention. And so utility costs are rising, because the cost of gas is growing.

Well I'm still not talking about fraud handled by the NAK "Naftogaz" and Ukrgazdobycha. Because gas is produced, its cost there 2 700 - 2 900 UAH, up to a hundred dollars. And NAK "Neftegaz" buys from ukrgasvydobuvannya it under 6 thousand. What is this 100 % profitability? And where is it? In a poor, impoverished, economically underdeveloped country? 100% profitability?

I can say: no, this is on the development! For development wells on production growth, as we have said Groisman pathetic. It is as if he speaks out and says: "For 5 years we need to increase production so that we do not buy anything." This, approximately, as you can say - it is necessary to increase the retail space in the Vinnitsa market, here I understand. Here is indeed for 5 years can be their increase in 2 times. But it is impossible to increase gas production!

And where did you grow up in production? It produced 15.7 billion. In General, the country produced 21 billion in 2014, and we have now produced 20.7 billion with private companies by the end of 2018. So where is this increase in production? And where do you invest? What new wells, new production? Groysman, who is talking about this, at least interested in this?

Vasily Golovanov: what does the message of the Russian Federation on the ban on the entry of Russian oil and oil products into our country show us?

Viktor Medvedchuk: You put the question absolutely correctly. What does that mean? I, Vasily, will expand your question, because the essence of the question is wider. We say that Russia has imposed sanctions against Ukraine and banned the import of coal, petroleum products and oil.

Well, about oil - this is a relative understanding, because oil from Russia has not been supplied since 2007. And for this purpose there were the reasons in which mister Yanukovych and many others is guilty. We will not talk about this now, but oil products and coal are another issue. Now, this is a response. After all, what is the economic problem between Russia and Ukraine? It consists in the fact that Ukraine at some stage joined the sanctions of the European Union, and Russia introduced counter-sanctions against Ukraine.

Even earlier, we entered the free trade zone with the EU, thereby cutting off the path of interaction and cooperation within the CIS zone and trade relations with Russia. All of this has led to the complex that has existed in recent years. When we lose 7 billion export potential of our products and services in the markets of the Russian Federation.

Now that we are there is limited, what caused such reaction of Russia. They took and banned what is vital. We are an energy-dependent state. I can say that we depend on two States - on Russia and Belarus, almost equally.

[May 03, 2019] Mr. President, Ukraine is offering this evidence to the United States. Would you like the United States [to get this information]-- with all this talk about collusion, they are saying they included on behalf of Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2016

Poroshenko might be convicted in the interference in the US Presidential elections.
May 03, 2019 | www.realclearpolitics.com

TRUMP: Well, I think it's incredible when you hear it. These are great reporters, all three, and when you have them on your trail, that's a problem. These are people that should be getting Pulitzers, not the ones that got the Pulitzers that got everything wrong.

If you listen to them, they got everything wrong. Go back and read some of their early and mid articles. They didn't have a clue what was going on and they win Pulitzer Prizes. These are the ones that should be winning.

It sounds like big stuff. It sounds very interesting with Ukraine. I just spoke to the new president a little while ago, two days ago, and congratulated him on an incredible race. Incredible run. A big surprise victory. That's 75 percent of the vote.

But that sounds like big, big stuff. I'm not surprised.

HANNITY: Mr. President, Ukraine is offering this evidence to the United States. Would you like the United States -- with all this talk about collusion, they are saying they included on behalf of Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2016. Does America need to see that information in spite of all of the attacks against you on collusion?

TRUMP: Well, I think we do. And, frankly, we have a great new attorney general who has done an unbelievable job in a very short period of time. And he is very smart and tough and I would certainly defer to him. I would imagine he would want to see this.

People have been saying this whole -- the concept of Ukraine, they have been talking about it actually for a long time. You know that, and I would certainly defer to the attorney general.

And we'll see what he says about it. He calls them straight. That's one thing I can tell you.

[May 02, 2019] Russian and Eurasian Politics by Gordon M. Hahn

Highly recommended!
Notable quotes:
"... If Zelenskii sees himself as the spark or leader of a wave of color revolutions in the former USSR, he will find the going with Russia tough, regardless of who the Russian president is ..."
"... Another black swan is that Ukraine now has a Jewish president. This is not evidence of the absence of anti-Semitism, which is robust among Ukraine's substantial number of ultranationalists and neofascists. Anti-semitism has been overshadowed by such radicals' laser-like focus of their xenophobia on ethnic Russians. ..."
"... The fact of a Jewish president -- in addition to the present PM being Jewish -- poses the risk of an uptick in anti-Semitism and in the appeal of the ultranationalist/neofascist message if Zelenskii fails to improve the economy, cut corruption, and/or appears to be 'caving in' to Russian or Western demands to the detriment of Ukraine's interests. ..."
"... The Jewish president will be a prime scapegoat in the case of such failure. These two dynamics – the inexperienced Zelenskii's possible failure and the potential political repercussions of his Jewish roots -- could tip the scales in favor of the ultranationalist wing of the Maidan-in-opposition and shape its calculus as to whether or not to undertake a coup, repeating what worked once in February 2014. ..."
May 02, 2019 | gordonhahn.com

... Zelenskii himself is likely to fight corruption, to be sure, but he is unlikely to challenge the ultranationalists, neofascists, and their militarized combat organizations. ... Zelenskii is unlikely to offer concessions that the DNR, LNR or Moscow will find acceptable for resolving the Donbass civil war.

Zelenskii's Victory and the Presidential Elections

Zelenskii's victory signified some decline in the acceptability overall in Ukraine of the Galician/Western line backed by Poroshenko countrywide' fueled largely by a full rejection in the east and south. Zelenskii made it a central point of his campaign to bring the ostracized south and east back in to Ukraine and end the discrimination against the Russian language fostered by Poroshenko legislation. Thus, Zelenskii won more than 80 percent of the vote in each of the 11 more Russian-speaking regions in eastern and southern Ukraine and nearly 90 percent in several of them. Poroshenko took only nationalistic Lviv. In the rest of western Ukraine won, in many of these regions only by a slim majority, but he won nevertheless. He even took some 60 percent in Poroshenko's native Volhyn region ( https://elections.dekoder.org/ukraine/en?fbclid=IwAR36OdD3lrXL3EKKy9Zfdhk8k36Azgr6nNWLeYH3sYiYX9Ci51O86GVDhow ). To the extent Zelenskii received great support in the east, his election represents a desire for an end of the slow-burning civil war in Donbass, of the east-west polarization inside the country, and of alienation of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians as well as for a normalization of Kiev's relations with Russia. Poroshenko's narrow but nevertheless defeat in almost all the western regions reflects the Galicians disenchantment with corruption far more than any significant rejection of Galician Ukrainian nationalism, ultrnationalism and neofascism in the west.

... ... ...

The Nature of Maidan Ukraine's Hybrid Regime

However, the problem in Ukraine has often been less with its elections being unfree or unfair ( https://gordonhahn.com/2015/06/21/one-day-in-the-life-of-ukrainian-democracy/ ). Most often the problem has been with the rule of law, massive corruption, the theft of the state by various powerful oligarchs, the lack of a cohesive national identity, and a deeply polarized society. It is these aspects of Ukraine's authoritarian side, its 'stateness problem' and political polarization and instability which are rarely understood in the West [see